From andyb@marxists.org Wed Jul 1 01:05:53 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 18:05:53 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Marx died before Structuralism existed, David, so he can't be "located within the structuralist tradition," but of course over the 140 years since he died all sorts of people defined themselves as Marxists and were either Structuralists, like Althusser or Postone, or incorporated elements of poststructuralism, or called themselves Humanists in a specific reaction to "Structuralist Marxism." But most Marxists I ever knew did not position themselves in relation to Structuralism or Poststructuralism. Poststructuralism was a reaction to Stucturalism which was already a reaction to Marx. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 2:26 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: > > Andy, > > I?m not schooled in the technical definitions of > structuralism or poststructuralism. From odd readings here > and there (e.g., Walkerdine, 1990, quoted below), I come > to a sense of structuralism as seeking to formulate > overarching explanatory systems, and of poststructuralism > as resisting universal perspectivizing. So, for instance, > I take much of the history of the physical sciences and > mathematics (predating the 20^th century) to be > structuralist ventures, with discovery of inherent > limitations to those projects as embodied in the > Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, Russell?s Paradox, and > Godel?s Incompleteness Theorem helping to give rise to > poststructural thought. > > Returning to the interest Mike expressed in > ?transformational agency,? the following quote from > Walkerdine helps me locate Marxism within the > structuralist tradition, particularly as counterpoised > with poststructural interpretations of liberation. > > I shall draw > > out certain contradictions for traditional Marxist > approaches to the > > relations of power within educational institutions. One > such view is that > > education, as a bourgeois institution, places teachers in > a position of > > power from which they can oppress children, who are > institutionally > > powerless. To somewhat overstate the case: the teacher, > powerful in a > > bourgeois educational institution, is in a position to > oppress children, > > whose resistance to that power, like all resistance, is > understood as > > ultimately progressive rather than contradictory. > Children's movements > > have tended to understand resistance in terms of 'rights' > or 'liberation'. > > Similarly, certain feminist accounts have used the > psychological concepts > > of 'role' and 'stereotype' to understand women and girls > as unitary > > subjects whose economic dependence, powerlessness and > physical weak- > > ness are reflected in their production as 'passive' , > 'weak' , and > > 'dependent' individuals. While such accounts have been > extremely > > important in helping to develop Marxist and feminist > practices, I want to > > pinpoint some of the reasons why such analyses might not > be as helpful > > as we might previously have supposed in understanding the > phenomena > > presented here. I want to show, using examples from > classroom practice, > > that both female teachers and small girls are not unitary > subjects uniquely > > positioned, but are produced as a nexus of subjectivities, > in relations of > > power which are constantly shifting, rendering them at one > moment > > powerful and at another powerless. 2 > > Additionally, I want to argue that while an understanding > of resist- > > ance is clearly important, we cannot read every resistance > as having > > revolutionary effects; sometimes resistances have > 'reactionary' effects. > > Resistance is not just struggle against the oppression of > a static power > > (and therefore potentially revolutionary simply because it > is struggle > > against the monolith); relations of power and resistance > are continually > > reproduced, in continual struggle and constantly shifting. > (Walkerdine, 1990, pp. 2-3) > > 2. For example, see criticisms of the notion of the > unitary subject of psychology and > > the assertion of the necessity for an understanding of > individuals as a 'nexus of > > subjectivities' in Adlam, et al, ' > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. > In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), /Schoolgirl fictions/ (pp. 3-15). > London: Verso. Reprinted from /Screen Education, 38/, > 14-24, 1981. > > David > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 10:43 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with > the distinctions you are making? > > Mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates > from the beginning of the 20th century and > poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there > were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is > undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. > But as I see it, "Structuralism" and > "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded > projects. I agree that both of these projects have had > an impact or influence on the development of Critical > Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." > > * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!T4cg2ATMWk65PBbZnhIcfQNDRZgORFN1YmY1mPTk4LLhsXe4E9-p6DENa2m6qAAT6ntelg$ > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: > > Mike, > > Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. > My guess/impression is that as critical theory and > sociocultural theory evolved both have been > influenced by poststructural thought, but neither > has made a true poststructural turn; nor have > scholars in either arena really grappled with the > implications of such a turn. > > David > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On > Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So > is cultural marxism one way to deal with > mutability or stability of structure? > > Most of the marxist social science I am reading > these days focuses?on transformational agency and > take their roots from Vygotsky > > and? (various )predecessors, so this is > post-structuralist Marxism? > > mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > > wrote: > > S?ma et al., > > The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? > is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and > postmodernist, structuralist and > poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is > always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a > modernist frame, the perspective of victim may > be able to be aligned with an overarching > (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes > its significance. Critical theory, stemming > from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist > account?or perhaps, more accurately, a > structuralist project as it is not clear that > critical theorists have arrived at consensus > about the theory. Postmodernism and > poststructuralism abandon the structuralist > mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock > structural perspective that can encompass the > variety of local perspectives. So my sense of > my victimhood is simply my perspective, and > the project of establishing its viability is > purely a political one. Any of us can > experience ourselves as victims, and assert a > political claim to that effect. Interestingly, > it is the political Right that embodies this > poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and > the political Left that orients itself in > structuralism. > > David > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On > Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Hi Annalisa and colleagues > > Thank you for processing my earlier > articulation in such an impeccable manner. I > see how your method of using definitions as a > foundation for conversations, specially > sensitive conversations in a multicultural > forum such as this one. You have beautifully > demonstrated that in your response below and > in some of your previous enlightening > contributions. > > Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 ?is > quite fitting in this situation; when ?a > victim expresses that they are victimised, > they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is > something seriously wrong with their mentality > ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying > ?do not think? that you are victimised even if > there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? > victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with > ?survivors? but the conditions and the context > under which? survivors? continue to survive. > > Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, > ?Critical Theory? ?to name, and shine light on > the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where > the conditions for thinking about or > ?reflecting? surviving are determined and > controlled, even those who have power ? > ?scientific or unscientific?. > > There is undeniable history of efforts and > activities of survivors of different forms > oppressions and genocides, ?where generations > of survivors have shown resilience and the > ability to move on, but only to be met with > new and systematic ways of ?psychological and > economic oppression. Leaving them with no > option but to survive by different means at > the disposal, including becoming religious > with the home for future redemption. Of more > interest to me are those who keep trying using > ???enlightened? ways by intellectually > explaining to themselves as a collective and > to the oppressor with the hope to bring about > change for their situation ? the ?doing > something about their situation.? Using the > analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!T4cg2ATMWk65PBbZnhIcfQNDRZgORFN1YmY1mPTk4LLhsXe4E9-p6DENa2m6qAB_t3YXNw$ > > (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has > a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? > is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of > those who are working hard to be free, let > alone to be at par with the oppressors? > ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in > the context of the gruesome protests after the > murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is > important for this conversation is the > content, the meaning of her articulations, > though her expressions are accompanied by very > strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy > worth my reflection. > > I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some > links between Cultural Historical Activity > Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social > Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who > maybe in this thread who have used these > theoretical lenses in their work in trying to > understand mental development it the global > context. I think Cultural Historical Activity > Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to > explain that which concerns Lindsay; how > Critical theory is finding its way of > infiltrating critical spaces in communities, > including academia, which he sees as nothing > but ?Grievance Studies? ?and threatening > scientific thinking. > > It has been good partaking in these > conversations. I think reflections can > continue to happen in private at a personal > level and in smaller groups. What is important > is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and > our learning. I myself have learned a lot from > this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways > I transform as I read your contributions, to > the point I ?at times pleasantly surprise > myself quoting what was said in this thread. > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On > Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical > Theory being posed as a "grievance science," > as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim > mentality" around the shoulders, etc. > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it > to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust > deniers. > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical > Theory by design is intended to uncover the > ideologies by which certain social sciences > have been taught and promulgated. It's > de-constructive, right? This stance might be > seen as nihilistic, but there has been some > valuable work from stripping off the veneer of > power structures in order to analyze its > underlying logic, which in many cases has been > arbitrary and reveals that privilege is > usually not earned through merit. > > When considering relations of power, it's easy > (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege > to name the powerless as "victims," but when > this is done, it is only in an objection when > victims call themselves victims, as if they > have no right to do so. > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word > that is likened to the word "masochistic" and > it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my > post here. > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who > are actual and legitimate victims. There seems > intertwined in the meaning of the word > something unquantifiable but that does result > in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even > more insidious, gaslighting, and these have > results of its own harmful effects. (Like when > we say "to add insult to injury"). > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," > which does have connotations of resilience and > fortitude against odds (of being victimized). > But when we consider the word "survivor" when > used as the name of a reality game show? (in > the early naughts). where people choose to put > themselves in difficult circumstances on > deserted islands to overcome these > circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted > off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk > about social Darwinism! > > I feel there is still something the word > "survivor" leaves unspoken about the > representation of a person who has been a > target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, > whether intentionally or not. > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of > "victim" and found these: > > 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or > injurious action or agency: a victim of an > automobile accident. > 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by > his or her own emotions or ignorance, by > the dishonesty of others, or by some > impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced > confidence; the victim of a swindler; a > victim of an optical illusion. > 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded > as sacrificed: war victims. > 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious > rites. > > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, > clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, > gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, > patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, > sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, > underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, > easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting > duck, sitting target, soft touch. > > I did the same for the term survivor: > > 1. a person or thing that survives. > 2. Law. the one of two or more designated > persons, as joint tenants or others having > a joint interest, who outlives the other > or others. > 3. a person who continues to function or > prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, > or setbacks. > > Synoymns: > > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, > remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, > scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems? the lest frequent > usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? > > It is odd to consider victims as designated > parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be > considered mere leftovers. > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like > easily accessible batteries to be utilized for > the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't > that what criminals do? To appropriate the > property or energy of others for their own > unearned benefit and advancement? > > Is that fitness or crime? > > t the same time to be a survivor seems to be > something left less whole. > > What then would one call an individual or > group who has been overpowered against their > self-agency by another individual or group? Is > there a word without these undertowing > currents of meaning? > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say > "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," > just as no one likes to say "I have been > victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society > is victimized by your society," or "My > ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > And yet, these would be factual > pronouncements, were legitimate individuals > (victims) of those actual experiences to > describe themselves in this fashion. > > Would it be no different than an individual > saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I > oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize > others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society > victimizes your society," or "My ancestors > enslaved yours." > > The problem in making these sorts of > statements is that while factual and > descriptive, they can actually be twisted into > being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this > and I can do it again because that's who I > am." or "This happened to me and it can happen > again because that's who I am." > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I > did not watch the video), who can throw about > "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge > to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using > the same disdain to describe those who > performed grave injustices against others, to > perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of > injustices", that might invoke that same > shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever > the words, it would be right and just they > should provide that? shadow of shame, given > the injustices that Critical Theory is > attempting to understand, without further > empowering perpetrators and without further > disempowering victims. > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse > because a crime performed in past cannot be > adjusted to correct for the crime, that it > somehow means justice cannot be performed? In > a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" > kind of attitude? That no one believes > exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked > graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so > hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice > was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it > is too slowly. > > This is why I wonder how to consider science > when we are talking about power structures. > What is scientific about justice/injustice? > Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or > is it? > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of > such power structures and their internal > reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi > propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw > many years ago, the name of the guest I don't > remember. I only recall he was a politico for > the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow > claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, > as if to say that it was an instruction > booklet on how to create the kind of society > he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in > the case of (all forms of) oppression it's > rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some > self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds > of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices > suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of > privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I > don't feel right about that, so I will stop > that now. I see the errors of my ways." > > It feels there is no obligation for > reconciliation because such folk percieve the > cement of history has been poured and dried. > "It's in the past, let's move on." > > There is something absurd about the tacit > agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying > to sort out how it might be not to be so > absurd sounding. > > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this > reflection? > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, > but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws > in my reasoning, and of course the typos there > above. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on > behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > *? [EXTERNAL]* > > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > Thank you for responding to my communication, > and for viewing? the video I referred to in my > previous email. Let me say that the connection > between the current conversation about > ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in > relation to? ?levels? of mental development > and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument > on Critical Theory having no scientific basis > (in the video) is this: > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that > Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots > like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race > Feminist theory, ?Identity Theories, etc. do > not have a scientific base but are a > ?movement? which they call ?Grievance > studies?,? that perpetuates ?self-pity? and > ?victim mentality?. They further went on to > produce fake scientific study ?dog rape > culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? > as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance > studies? are;? most of which are of course are > situated in the social sciences. This further > exposed the paucity in the system of peer > reviews in scientific journals, which some > believe are also tainted by ideological > predispositions ? my fear is that this > introduces mistrust in the notion of review > processes of scientific journals - ?which we > have to be concerned about. > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to > the picture is: while I am not certain if I > wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on > Critical Theories, I ?am however fascinated by > the fact that they confirm the influence of > ideological position an individual or rather a > ?scientist? holds,? ( an idea alluded to by > some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as > much as we aspire to be objective in our > pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives > associated with our scientific knowledge(s) > are likely to be tainted with ideologically > biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay > and Weinstein bring to our attention the > dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the > name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this > day of rapid technological connection the > collective is gradually become global rather > than in specific localities. Even those that > deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? > or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their > unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and > other spaces with Critical Theory? like a? > ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret > Weinstein ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > > ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if > Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific > evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, > unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can > add other classifying adjectives to describe > all those who have not developed ?scientific > tools?). > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is > related to some of the sources that I have > encountered earlier, clearly not on this > YouTube video I referred you to, but it is > ?within this line of debates about > ?scientific? knowledge?. > > It seems to me that the association of ?Paulo > Freire?s ??Education for the Oppressed? to > "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and > perhaps mistook for ?Education for the > Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially > if we take into consideration all the > publications by Freire, like Education for > Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse > analogy for the Critical Education is evidence > of? the collectively formulated knowledge that > is generously shared, rendering the > commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible > to the privileged few, generously shared to > all who needs to advance the survival of > humanity. > > Regards, > > Simangele > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Casting collective efforts at > self-determination as "victim mentality" or > "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing > criticism of progressive movements. Of all > people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty > of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed > specifically, like Myles Horton's, at > stimulating and equipping people from being > victims to self-determination. There is such a > thing as a politics of pity though; it is > called philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of > science scholars who discuss what rigorous > scientific and scholarship are or can be, > your choice?a video critiquing critical > theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to > as ?grievance studies??is ?indeed > surprising and remarkable in the context > of this conversation! > > In the video, which did not so much touch > my small Marxist me (I am not so well read > so as to know how much of a Marxist I > am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s > Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of > ?critical social justice? books, which he > defines as ?a codified way to indulge > people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He > complains that teachers are being educated > with Freire?s book, and that students are > being taught with this critical (or, as > Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. > Without going into whether Lindsay?s > critique holds or has any touch with what > critical theory scholars argue and do, I > wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s > position, an example of a good book for > teachers, and why would that one be it? > > Alfredo > > *From: * > > on behalf of Martin Packer > > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a > question. > > Hi Simangele, > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental > functioning?? I would say that is > something with which psychology has had > some difficulty. > > Martin > > /"I may say that whenever I meet > Mrs.?Seligman or?Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters?with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, > I?become at?once?aware that my partner > does not understand anything in the > matter, and I end usually?with the?feeling > that this also applies to myself? > (Malinowski, 1930)/ > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele > Mayisela > > > wrote: > > Further, ?I still have more questions, > however it does appear to me that at > the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the > scientific question are the ?levels? > of mental development which are > associated to ?skin colour?, with > little consideration of the historical > oppression that created the > ?backwards? economies that keep the > third of the global population is what > appears to be of low level of mental > functioning. The question is more > about ?what is the quality of the > contents of what is embodies by the > black skin or a white skin?? with the > aim to find evidence for the difference. > > Just to share, lately? have been > viewing James Lindsay argument on what > is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? > and ?scholarship? ?vs popular > narratives that are a propaganda based > on Critical Theory, which are taking > over academy. Here is one his videos > that you may want to view ? if you are > Marxist at heart be warned that you > may be challenged by Lindsay?s > argument on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!T4cg2ATMWk65PBbZnhIcfQNDRZgORFN1YmY1mPTk4LLhsXe4E9-p6DENa2m6qADak8iwyA$ > > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views > on a question. > > Dear Alfredo > > Thank you for taking my attention of > ?level? which is crucial to rendering > the question ?scientific?. But couple > with level, which could be quantifies > as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or > ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question > to be asked should be about the > ?ideological basis? , I think the > ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to > the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis > serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs > where the person ?will land ?in terms > of the ideas. > > Nevertheless thank you for the > clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > -- > > /Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under > similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same > tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and > oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same > fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens./// > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!T4cg2ATMWk65PBbZnhIcfQNDRZgORFN1YmY1mPTk4LLhsXe4E9-p6DENa2m6qABMJOhg6Q$ > > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/e9de1617/attachment-0001.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jul 1 01:44:37 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:44:37 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: One could say that dialectics is only a partial account of the logic of mediation. Perhaps structuralism, to the degree that it differs, has some contribution or exercises some aspect of this. A robust study of institutions should include both a means of studying institutional malignancy and also their scope of operations. It is important to heed the prerogative of the institution for self-maintenance. When this self-maintenance is not predicated upon legitimate service then malignancy ensues. Hence the idealist hope for remediating 'black lives' placed in governmental reform seems misplaced. Huw On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 05:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", > i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such > contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and > instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. > > Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite > harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the > contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not > automatic. > > But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without > "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the > sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative > activities, trust we will all die. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: > > Andy -- You write that " The structure is *built around* > *contradictions" * > Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures *contain* the *contradictions > *minist in social life? > I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural > structures that coordinate constituent > activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. > mike > and g'night! > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, >> which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look >> like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's *Logic *and >> Marx's *Capital *is a contradiction. The structure is built around >> *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the >> contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. >> >> Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system >> with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how >> Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in >> Marx's *Capital*." >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: >> >> David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the >> distinctions you are making? >> Mike >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning >>> of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That >>> there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and >>> likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and >>> "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree >>> that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the >>> development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." >>> >>> - >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!U1fvp9wYVAl9tljWqr4zvO8FdaHI0Za42Z3RRQtNjbJa3mUTny0MXMlHBkW9Zbps0mHL0g$ >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: >>> >>> Mike, >>> >>> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is >>> that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been >>> influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true >>> poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with >>> the implications of such a turn. >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On >>> Behalf Of *mike cole >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism >>> one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? >>> >>> Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on >>> transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky >>> >>> and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? >>> >>> >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner wrote: >>> >>> S?ma et al., >>> >>> The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by >>> crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and >>> poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have >>> been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able >>> to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that >>> authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, >>> is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a >>> structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have >>> arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism >>> abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock >>> structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local >>> perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and >>> the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of >>> us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to >>> that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this >>> poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that >>> orients itself in structuralism. >>> >>> David >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Annalisa and colleagues >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable >>> manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for >>> conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum >>> such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response >>> below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this >>> situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then >>> ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? >>> the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are >>> victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. >>> Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the >>> context under which? survivors? continue to survive. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to >>> name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the >>> conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and >>> controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. >>> >>> >>> >>> There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of >>> different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors >>> have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with >>> new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving >>> them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, >>> including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more >>> interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by >>> intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the >>> oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the >>> ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly >>> game Tameka Jones Young >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!U1fvp9wYVAl9tljWqr4zvO8FdaHI0Za42Z3RRQtNjbJa3mUTny0MXMlHBkW9Zbr1_-Tb9A$ >>> >>> (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why >>> ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who >>> are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? >>> ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome >>> protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for >>> this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though >>> her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her >>> monopoly analogy worth my reflection. >>> >>> >>> >>> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural >>> Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, >>> I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these >>> theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development >>> it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe >>> one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how >>> Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in >>> communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance >>> Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. >>> >>> >>> >>> It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections >>> can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller >>> groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our >>> learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and >>> unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I >>> at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> S?ma >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello S'ma and venerable others, >>> >>> >>> >>> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a >>> "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" >>> around the shoulders, etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as >>> grievous as Holocaust deniers. >>> >>> >>> >>> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is >>> intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have >>> been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might >>> be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping >>> off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying >>> logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is >>> usually not earned through merit. >>> >>> >>> >>> When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for >>> someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is >>> done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as >>> if they have no right to do so. >>> >>> >>> >>> So who has the right to use this word "victim"? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the >>> word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post >>> here. >>> >>> >>> >>> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate >>> victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something >>> unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and >>> even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful >>> effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). >>> >>> >>> >>> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? >>> >>> >>> >>> Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations >>> of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we >>> consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show >>> (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult >>> circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their >>> wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk >>> about social Darwinism! >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken >>> about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, >>> crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. >>> >>> >>> >>> Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: >>> >>> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or >>> agency: a victim of an automobile accident. >>> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own >>> emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal >>> agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a >>> victim of an optical illusion. >>> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war >>> victims. >>> 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. >>> >>> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: >>> >>> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, >>> gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, >>> pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, >>> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured >>> party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. >>> >>> >>> >>> I did the same for the term survivor: >>> >>> 1. a person or thing that survives. >>> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants >>> or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. >>> 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of >>> opposition, hardship, or setbacks. >>> >>> Synoymns: >>> >>> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, >>> remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts >>> >>> The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most >>> recent accepted meaning? >>> >>> >>> >>> It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and >>> survivors to be considered mere leftovers. >>> >>> >>> >>> Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible >>> batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't >>> that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for >>> their own unearned benefit and advancement? >>> >>> >>> >>> Is that fitness or crime? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered >>> against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word >>> without these undertowing currents of meaning? >>> >>> >>> >>> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." >>> or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," >>> "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My >>> ancestors were enslaved by yours." >>> >>> >>> >>> And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate >>> individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in >>> this fashion. >>> >>> >>> >>> Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an >>> oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am >>> a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors >>> enslaved yours." >>> >>> >>> >>> The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual >>> and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As >>> if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or >>> "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." >>> >>> >>> >>> While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), >>> who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, >>> I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those >>> who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase >>> like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of >>> shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just >>> they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that >>> Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering >>> perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. >>> >>> >>> >>> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in >>> past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means >>> justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la >>> vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from >>> "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? >>> >>> >>> >>> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of >>> justice to meet the crime? >>> >>> >>> >>> In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too >>> quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. >>> >>> >>> >>> This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about >>> power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems >>> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? >>> >>> >>> >>> Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and >>> their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or >>> the promotion of eugenics. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name >>> of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the >>> George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was >>> Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to >>> create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. >>> >>> >>> >>> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) >>> oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection >>> to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the >>> injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed >>> me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that >>> now. I see the errors of my ways." >>> >>> >>> >>> It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk >>> percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the >>> past, let's move on." >>> >>> >>> >>> There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid >>> self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd >>> sounding. >>> >>> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best >>> attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there >>> above. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela >>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> Hi Andy and Alfredo >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video >>> I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between >>> the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in >>> relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James >>> Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the >>> video) is this: >>> >>> >>> >>> Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with >>> its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, >>> Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement >>> which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and >>> ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study >>> ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how >>> unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are >>> situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the >>> system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also >>> tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces >>> mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which >>> we have to be concerned about. >>> >>> >>> >>> The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am >>> not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, >>> I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of >>> ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an >>> idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we >>> aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives >>> associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with >>> ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein >>> bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the >>> name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological >>> connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in >>> specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental >>> functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected >>> ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like >>> a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( >>> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ >>> >>> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan >>> Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, >>> unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying >>> adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific >>> tools?). >>> >>> >>> >>> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources >>> that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I >>> referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? >>> knowledge?. >>> >>> >>> >>> It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for >>> the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook >>> for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we >>> take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for >>> Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical >>> Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is >>> generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge >>> accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to >>> advance the survival of humanity. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Simangele >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" >>> or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive >>> movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a >>> sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at >>> stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. >>> There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called >>> philanthropy and charity. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>> >>> thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss >>> what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video >>> critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance >>> studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this >>> conversation! >>> >>> >>> >>> In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not >>> so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions >>> Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social >>> justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into >>> self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with >>> Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, >>> as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether >>> Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory >>> scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an >>> example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? >>> >>> >>> >>> Alfredo >>> >>> *From: * >>> on behalf of Martin Packer >>> >>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> >>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 >>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> >>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Simangele, >>> >>> >>> >>> How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that >>> is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. >>> >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss >>> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my >>> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with >>> the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < >>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that >>> at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the >>> ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with >>> little consideration of the historical oppression that created the >>> ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what >>> appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more >>> about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black >>> skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. >>> >>> >>> >>> Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what >>> is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular >>> narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking >>> over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are >>> Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument >>> on ideologies. >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!U1fvp9wYVAl9tljWqr4zvO8FdaHI0Za42Z3RRQtNjbJa3mUTny0MXMlHBkW9Zbqu4dIqFw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> S?ma >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Simangele Mayisela >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Alfredo >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to >>> rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be >>> quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account >>> for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the >>> ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to >>> the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the >>> scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms >>> of the ideas. >>> >>> >>> >>> Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> S?ma >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!U1fvp9wYVAl9tljWqr4zvO8FdaHI0Za42Z3RRQtNjbJa3mUTny0MXMlHBkW9ZboPHnQkpg$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!U1fvp9wYVAl9tljWqr4zvO8FdaHI0Za42Z3RRQtNjbJa3mUTny0MXMlHBkW9ZboPHnQkpg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/fd07da56/attachment.html From simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za Wed Jul 1 05:36:29 2020 From: simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za (Simangele Mayisela) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:36:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Mike, Andy, David, Annalisa and Alfredo I too am not well knowledgeable with Marxist psychology, except for my reading Capital it is passing, as a foundation for understanding Vygotsky?s reference to Marxist?s ideas. On encountering Critical Theory (ies) I had a strong sense that it is somehow connected to Vygotsky?s and Marxist?s ideas, and this was somehow confirmed by the critiques of Critical theory, who seem to be averse to Marxist?s ideas. In this conversation, you have kind of affirmed my thoughts, and that I need to read more on Structuralism and Poststructuralism to further my thoughts, and of course question if indeed these are points of connections to these theories. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 01 July 2020 10:06 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Marx died before Structuralism existed, David, so he can't be "located within the structuralist tradition," but of course over the 140 years since he died all sorts of people defined themselves as Marxists and were either Structuralists, like Althusser or Postone, or incorporated elements of poststructuralism, or called themselves Humanists in a specific reaction to "Structuralist Marxism." But most Marxists I ever knew did not position themselves in relation to Structuralism or Poststructuralism. Poststructuralism was a reaction to Stucturalism which was already a reaction to Marx. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 2:26 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: Andy, I?m not schooled in the technical definitions of structuralism or poststructuralism. From odd readings here and there (e.g., Walkerdine, 1990, quoted below), I come to a sense of structuralism as seeking to formulate overarching explanatory systems, and of poststructuralism as resisting universal perspectivizing. So, for instance, I take much of the history of the physical sciences and mathematics (predating the 20th century) to be structuralist ventures, with discovery of inherent limitations to those projects as embodied in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, Russell?s Paradox, and Godel?s Incompleteness Theorem helping to give rise to poststructural thought. Returning to the interest Mike expressed in ?transformational agency,? the following quote from Walkerdine helps me locate Marxism within the structuralist tradition, particularly as counterpoised with poststructural interpretations of liberation. I shall draw out certain contradictions for traditional Marxist approaches to the relations of power within educational institutions. One such view is that education, as a bourgeois institution, places teachers in a position of power from which they can oppress children, who are institutionally powerless. To somewhat overstate the case: the teacher, powerful in a bourgeois educational institution, is in a position to oppress children, whose resistance to that power, like all resistance, is understood as ultimately progressive rather than contradictory. Children's movements have tended to understand resistance in terms of 'rights' or 'liberation'. Similarly, certain feminist accounts have used the psychological concepts of 'role' and 'stereotype' to understand women and girls as unitary subjects whose economic dependence, powerlessness and physical weak- ness are reflected in their production as 'passive' , 'weak' , and 'dependent' individuals. While such accounts have been extremely important in helping to develop Marxist and feminist practices, I want to pinpoint some of the reasons why such analyses might not be as helpful as we might previously have supposed in understanding the phenomena presented here. I want to show, using examples from classroom practice, that both female teachers and small girls are not unitary subjects uniquely positioned, but are produced as a nexus of subjectivities, in relations of power which are constantly shifting, rendering them at one moment powerful and at another powerless. 2 Additionally, I want to argue that while an understanding of resist- ance is clearly important, we cannot read every resistance as having revolutionary effects; sometimes resistances have 'reactionary' effects. Resistance is not just struggle against the oppression of a static power (and therefore potentially revolutionary simply because it is struggle against the monolith); relations of power and resistance are continually reproduced, in continual struggle and constantly shifting. (Walkerdine, 1990, pp. 2-3) 2. For example, see criticisms of the notion of the unitary subject of psychology and the assertion of the necessity for an understanding of individuals as a 'nexus of subjectivities' in Adlam, et al, ' Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions (pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 10:43 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? Mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!V7b3n8iohPe-u7b9Nh_1Y58BHhZMuLq-pQtMESYsc0c8QAYdrW0YK_uzkPLuXZ3baNhppw$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: Mike, Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: S?ma et al., The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!V7b3n8iohPe-u7b9Nh_1Y58BHhZMuLq-pQtMESYsc0c8QAYdrW0YK_uzkPLuXZ1hybbFwQ$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!V7b3n8iohPe-u7b9Nh_1Y58BHhZMuLq-pQtMESYsc0c8QAYdrW0YK_uzkPLuXZ3VBcyG3Q$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V7b3n8iohPe-u7b9Nh_1Y58BHhZMuLq-pQtMESYsc0c8QAYdrW0YK_uzkPLuXZ3cksoPGw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/fbf62ec7/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Jul 1 06:19:03 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 08:19:03 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: As far as developmental theorists are concerned, it is usually Piaget who is described as a structuralist. While for Saussure (the best known structuralist) the basic structures were binary oppositions, for Piaget the basic structures were sets, in the mathematical sense: elements and operations on elements. Like any structuralist, Piaget had some difficulties explaining change. Ironic for a developmentalist. Vygotsky, with all his talk about processes (thinking, speaking) and functions (higher, lower) was clearly in a different camp. I have more often seen Gestalt psychology described as ?structural' than as 'structuralist.? My 2 cents. Martin > On Jul 1, 2020, at 1:44 AM, David H Kirshner wrote: > > David, > > The term ?structural? has many uses in academia that are not directly tied to the structural/poststructural issues under consideration. For instance, ?structural psychology? is the name given to a theory of consciousness developed by Wilhelm Wundt and Edward Titchener. Perhaps it also is used in relation to Gestalt psychology. > > Valerie Walkerdine was referencing ?traditional Marxist approaches to the relations of power within educational institutions,? not Marx?s writings, per se, though I?m confident she is very familiar with them. > > David > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 12:42 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > David-- > > If we are talking about Vygotsky, "structuralist psychology" refers to the current we now call Gestaltism, and structuralist methods are in contrast to functional and to genetic methods. As Halliday used to say function explains how structure changes, but only history can explain how function changes. > > I believe your man Walkerdine has not read Capital. Marx says: > > "If we may take an example from outside the sphere of production of material objects, a schoolmaster is a productive labourer when, in addition to belabouring the heads of his scholars, he works like a horse to enrich the school proprietor. That the latter has laid out his capital in a teaching factory, instead of in a sausage factory, does not alter the relation." (p. 359). > > The views that Walkerdine lays out are essentially Rousseauvian and not Marxist at all. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!ULtup_Z4BrWN4vM77ggl4ORmtTdldgLCHUBvoKOneZ-kVzFej9cpsAko-u0itH-M2Ij1Ow$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!ULtup_Z4BrWN4vM77ggl4ORmtTdldgLCHUBvoKOneZ-kVzFej9cpsAko-u0itH8tf8hDiQ$ > > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:29 PM David H Kirshner > wrote: > Andy, > I?m not schooled in the technical definitions of structuralism or poststructuralism. From odd readings here and there (e.g., Walkerdine, 1990, quoted below), I come to a sense of structuralism as seeking to formulate overarching explanatory systems, and of poststructuralism as resisting universal perspectivizing. So, for instance, I take much of the history of the physical sciences and mathematics (predating the 20th century) to be structuralist ventures, with discovery of inherent limitations to those projects as embodied in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, Russell?s Paradox, and Godel?s Incompleteness Theorem helping to give rise to poststructural thought. > Returning to the interest Mike expressed in ?transformational agency,? the following quote from Walkerdine helps me locate Marxism within the structuralist tradition, particularly as counterpoised with poststructural interpretations of liberation. > I shall draw > out certain contradictions for traditional Marxist approaches to the > relations of power within educational institutions. One such view is that > education, as a bourgeois institution, places teachers in a position of > power from which they can oppress children, who are institutionally > powerless. To somewhat overstate the case: the teacher, powerful in a > bourgeois educational institution, is in a position to oppress children, > whose resistance to that power, like all resistance, is understood as > ultimately progressive rather than contradictory. Children's movements > have tended to understand resistance in terms of 'rights' or 'liberation'. > Similarly, certain feminist accounts have used the psychological concepts > of 'role' and 'stereotype' to understand women and girls as unitary > subjects whose economic dependence, powerlessness and physical weak- > ness are reflected in their production as 'passive' , 'weak' , and > 'dependent' individuals. While such accounts have been extremely > important in helping to develop Marxist and feminist practices, I want to > pinpoint some of the reasons why such analyses might not be as helpful > as we might previously have supposed in understanding the phenomena > presented here. I want to show, using examples from classroom practice, > that both female teachers and small girls are not unitary subjects uniquely > positioned, but are produced as a nexus of subjectivities, in relations of > power which are constantly shifting, rendering them at one moment > powerful and at another powerless. 2 > Additionally, I want to argue that while an understanding of resist- > ance is clearly important, we cannot read every resistance as having > revolutionary effects; sometimes resistances have 'reactionary' effects. > Resistance is not just struggle against the oppression of a static power > (and therefore potentially revolutionary simply because it is struggle > against the monolith); relations of power and resistance are continually > reproduced, in continual struggle and constantly shifting. (Walkerdine, 1990, pp. 2-3) > > 2. For example, see criticisms of the notion of the unitary subject of psychology and > the assertion of the necessity for an understanding of individuals as a 'nexus of > subjectivities' in Adlam, et al, ' > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions (pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > David > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 10:43 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? > Mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: > I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!ULtup_Z4BrWN4vM77ggl4ORmtTdldgLCHUBvoKOneZ-kVzFej9cpsAko-u0itH-ouN0yew$ > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: > Mike, > Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. > David > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? > Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky > and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? > > mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: > S?ma et al., > The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. > David > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > Hi Annalisa and colleagues > > Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. > > Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. > > Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. > > There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!ULtup_Z4BrWN4vM77ggl4ORmtTdldgLCHUBvoKOneZ-kVzFej9cpsAko-u0itH9LMhpgiQ$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. > > I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. > > It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. > > > Regards > S?ma > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. > > When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! > > I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: > a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. > a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. > a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. > a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. > > I did the same for the term survivor: > a person or thing that survives. > Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. > a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. > Synoymns: > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? > > It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? > > Is that fitness or crime? > > > > t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. > > > What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. > > Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." > > The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. > > This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." > > It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." > > There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. > > Kind regards, > Annalisa > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > [EXTERNAL] > > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: > > > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > Simangele > > > > > > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > From: on behalf of Martin Packer > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!ULtup_Z4BrWN4vM77ggl4ORmtTdldgLCHUBvoKOneZ-kVzFej9cpsAko-u0itH-erfN2XQ$ > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > From: Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > -- > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!ULtup_Z4BrWN4vM77ggl4ORmtTdldgLCHUBvoKOneZ-kVzFej9cpsAko-u0itH9oQRX7fA$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/bf6b9069/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Wed Jul 1 07:27:29 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:27:29 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: <2CD662ED-362D-4918-B7EF-B235C5845929@cantab.net> I neglected to mention that Piaget described himself as a structuralist, for example in this book (recently republished): Piaget, J. (1988). Structuralism. New York: Harper & Row. (Original work published 1970) ?which was reviewed here: Turner, T. (1973). Piaget?s structuralism. American Anthropologist, 75(2), 351-373. ?the text of which is available here: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2016-07.dir/pdfyfYQIHEVQj.pdf Martin > On Jul 1, 2020, at 8:19 AM, Martin Packer wrote: > > As far as developmental theorists are concerned, it is usually Piaget who is described as a structuralist. While for Saussure (the best known structuralist) the basic structures were binary oppositions, for Piaget the basic structures were sets, in the mathematical sense: elements and operations on elements. Like any structuralist, Piaget had some difficulties explaining change. Ironic for a developmentalist. > > Vygotsky, with all his talk about processes (thinking, speaking) and functions (higher, lower) was clearly in a different camp. > > I have more often seen Gestalt psychology described as ?structural' than as 'structuralist.? > > My 2 cents. > > Martin > > > >> On Jul 1, 2020, at 1:44 AM, David H Kirshner > wrote: >> >> David, >> >> The term ?structural? has many uses in academia that are not directly tied to the structural/poststructural issues under consideration. For instance, ?structural psychology? is the name given to a theory of consciousness developed by Wilhelm Wundt and Edward Titchener. Perhaps it also is used in relation to Gestalt psychology. >> >> Valerie Walkerdine was referencing ?traditional Marxist approaches to the relations of power within educational institutions,? not Marx?s writings, per se, though I?m confident she is very familiar with them. >> >> David >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of David Kellogg >> Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 12:42 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >> >> David-- >> >> If we are talking about Vygotsky, "structuralist psychology" refers to the current we now call Gestaltism, and structuralist methods are in contrast to functional and to genetic methods. As Halliday used to say function explains how structure changes, but only history can explain how function changes. >> >> I believe your man Walkerdine has not read Capital. Marx says: >> >> "If we may take an example from outside the sphere of production of material objects, a schoolmaster is a productive labourer when, in addition to belabouring the heads of his scholars, he works like a horse to enrich the school proprietor. That the latter has laid out his capital in a teaching factory, instead of in a sausage factory, does not alter the relation." (p. 359). >> >> The views that Walkerdine lays out are essentially Rousseauvian and not Marxist at all. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!R26CuXH8RzJcJx3UvQeD3IrDWL4KcOkhbGZXUw9yHSifwwi1--np42pOqS_e66umBTWACw$ >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R26CuXH8RzJcJx3UvQeD3IrDWL4KcOkhbGZXUw9yHSifwwi1--np42pOqS_e66tncOdgLA$ >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:29 PM David H Kirshner > wrote: >> Andy, >> I?m not schooled in the technical definitions of structuralism or poststructuralism. From odd readings here and there (e.g., Walkerdine, 1990, quoted below), I come to a sense of structuralism as seeking to formulate overarching explanatory systems, and of poststructuralism as resisting universal perspectivizing. So, for instance, I take much of the history of the physical sciences and mathematics (predating the 20th century) to be structuralist ventures, with discovery of inherent limitations to those projects as embodied in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, Russell?s Paradox, and Godel?s Incompleteness Theorem helping to give rise to poststructural thought. >> Returning to the interest Mike expressed in ?transformational agency,? the following quote from Walkerdine helps me locate Marxism within the structuralist tradition, particularly as counterpoised with poststructural interpretations of liberation. >> I shall draw >> out certain contradictions for traditional Marxist approaches to the >> relations of power within educational institutions. One such view is that >> education, as a bourgeois institution, places teachers in a position of >> power from which they can oppress children, who are institutionally >> powerless. To somewhat overstate the case: the teacher, powerful in a >> bourgeois educational institution, is in a position to oppress children, >> whose resistance to that power, like all resistance, is understood as >> ultimately progressive rather than contradictory. Children's movements >> have tended to understand resistance in terms of 'rights' or 'liberation'. >> Similarly, certain feminist accounts have used the psychological concepts >> of 'role' and 'stereotype' to understand women and girls as unitary >> subjects whose economic dependence, powerlessness and physical weak- >> ness are reflected in their production as 'passive' , 'weak' , and >> 'dependent' individuals. While such accounts have been extremely >> important in helping to develop Marxist and feminist practices, I want to >> pinpoint some of the reasons why such analyses might not be as helpful >> as we might previously have supposed in understanding the phenomena >> presented here. I want to show, using examples from classroom practice, >> that both female teachers and small girls are not unitary subjects uniquely >> positioned, but are produced as a nexus of subjectivities, in relations of >> power which are constantly shifting, rendering them at one moment >> powerful and at another powerless. 2 >> Additionally, I want to argue that while an understanding of resist- >> ance is clearly important, we cannot read every resistance as having >> revolutionary effects; sometimes resistances have 'reactionary' effects. >> Resistance is not just struggle against the oppression of a static power >> (and therefore potentially revolutionary simply because it is struggle >> against the monolith); relations of power and resistance are continually >> reproduced, in continual struggle and constantly shifting. (Walkerdine, 1990, pp. 2-3) >> >> 2. For example, see criticisms of the notion of the unitary subject of psychology and >> the assertion of the necessity for an understanding of individuals as a 'nexus of >> subjectivities' in Adlam, et al, ' >> >> Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions (pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. >> >> David >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/3f9b3fa5/attachment.html From simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za Wed Jul 1 07:29:02 2020 From: simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za (Simangele Mayisela) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 14:29:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. In-Reply-To: References: <6540C1C7-BC1A-4C4C-A5ED-07CA9F747CF3@uio.no> <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> , , Message-ID: I hear you clearly Annalisa And I absolutely agree with you, in essence if "victimhood" is watered down there is no "perpetrator" is watered down, and in the end if there is no victim and no perpetrator, then what is justice for? But isn't it that collectives end up using the language to exude their state of mind, in this case my sense is there is a strong desire for peace and stability, more so those who are victims, they need time to heal and "move on" within a social contract that recognises that victims have a strong desire to heal and move on. In any case and realistically, there is little time for adequate healing and reflection for the victims of gross violations as they come out of the trauma with the need to focus on "nation building" and to prepare better futures for the coming generations. Not that this is the best process, as we all understand the unconscious collective minds of "victims" as well as of "perpetrators" may still play out the collective trauma more so if there is "forced forgetting" repression so to say, with no acknowledgement of victims and their victimhood by means of shaming or gaslighting the victims. I wonder what people who have studies Victimology would have to say about this. But then in my mind what stalls the healing of the victims need to survive and move is (not based on a particular theory): 1. If there the perpetrator (A) is not will to acknowledge their perpetration, (be it political or institutional or social) healing becomes a one sided for the victims (B) process with the element of social cohesion as a healing factor missing. 2. When victims (B) make attempts to restore normality and stability as a collective in the absence of social cohesion, fear of the need for self defence on the part of the perpetrators (A) arise from their unconscious acknowledgement of their perpetration, and for them the focus would be to pass down the suspicion, insecurity and defence onto their future generations - influencing their activities 3. An example of the perpetrator (A) perceiving the victim (B) in the survivor mode as a threat of some sort, this Amy Cooper video https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFjxye6T4fk__;!!Mih3wA!QT22K7LK0brmsWOy-93Y7Cev8Kte7gWkLsKTynTHte_vnStY23TD6lQXaoNVFj5Cs2YVTQ$ shows how with a clear sense of privilege the perpetrator (A) can perceive the victim (B) as a perpetrator, where the perpetrator (A) turns around and shouts "victimisation" by the survivor/victim. Thank you Annalisa for your engaging, wishing all health and safety as you navigate survival over covid-19. I will engage from background going forward. Regards S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Wednesday, 01 July 2020 08:40 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S'ma, David, Henry, Mike, and venerable others, I am not in a place to look at the facebook link, though I shall try to review it in the coming days. I think one of the "projects" of my reply to yours, S'ma, is why is it "wrong" to have a "victim mentality"? If one has indeed been a victim? I feel that there is a denigration of the word "victim" that requires rehabilitation by purging the word of this denigration. A victim implies a perpetrator taking advantage by exercise of blatant power or by covert stealth and manipulation. That is accurately descriptive. As I have started to read about the effects of trauma upon a person, I feel that "victim mentality" is a viable phrase to explain a state of mind in the victim that is a natural response to harm, in the same way that if I were to cut my finger, it will bleed. To remove from language a naming of this effect is like refusing to describe bleeding as "bleeding" which then seems to have a project ever more of denying that bleeding even happens. But when I cut my finger, bleeding does not go on forever. Though I suppose one can die from bleeding out with a deep enough wound, at some point if the injury is not fatal,the bleeding staunches and the healing begins. One of the aspects that I feel is a very real experience is the person not realizing that something has even happened, there is a mystical experience as if being in a dream. A questioning of reality. Perhaps I might frame what I mean if we contemplate where we were when we first learned the first tower of the World Trade Center had suffered impact by a plane. Then, where we were when the second one hit the other tower. When I say "were we were" I refer to a state of mind, than a geographical location. Them where were we when the towers collapsed? When we crossed each of the stations of suffering that marked what we know as 9/11? For many of us, which might possibly include conspiracy theorists, we will never know what exactly happened or why. I think that that is what makes "victim" an appropriate and just word, because the state of mind would not exist but for the perpetrator of violence upon the agency of the victim. We were all victims in some way by the events of 9/11, and I feel that's because we are all connected to one another. We each suffered in different degrees based upon our orientation to the events. That space or gap or state of mind of not knowing, of ignorance and disassociation from reality, which a victim experiences cognitively, is monstrously painful because the mind works hard to try to "make sense" of what happened. It wants to fill in the gap. In order to transcend the crime committed, the victim must fill that space on one's own in one's own time; that self-talk that frames one's emotional experiences. Just as one must rehabilitate from a surgery or illness, the injured party must be provided accommodation to allow for genuine healing to manifest. What is so outrageous is when the perpetrators try to control that narrative of healing to which the victim must arrive independently and without influence of the perpetrator, to fill that gap. That is what gaslighting is when the narrative is controlled by the perpetrator, or those who would deny the crime ever happened. That's how further injury is committed against the victim. Such talk might be, "Well, what were you doing walking out there by yourself in the middle of the night. You were asking to be raped if you were wearing that. You should have known better." Etc. What I am considering (and I am grateful for the collaborative spirit that you bring in this exploration to allow my consideration), is how few people seem capable of witnessing the suffering of others. This seems especially true for those who are in positions of power and who also abuse that position. If a person is truly powerful, inherently powerful, then would it matter at all if they harmed another person less powerful, if such were the nature of power? Why shouldn't they be able to witness the destruction of the agency without grimacing? Yet, when we do see examples of that kind of display of power, we find such a person sadistic, heartless, brutish, etc. I am recalling the Susan Sontag book of essays On Regarding the Pain of Others, and I wish I could retrieve the book to read it again in the context of this discussion... Oh see here! I have found it online here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://monoskop.org/images/a/a6/Sontag_Susan_2003_Regarding_the_Pain_of_Others.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!QT22K7LK0brmsWOy-93Y7Cev8Kte7gWkLsKTynTHte_vnStY23TD6lQXaoNVFj6rffp_bg$ I have set up myself some homework for further contemplation and reflection to be sure. Anyway, to resume the bead of my thought that I had started, I believe that the reason that a person with power who is incapable of rendering, in one's mind, the suffering and pain of another has to do with capacity. That's what makes them a "person with power," rather than a "powerful person." This lack of capacity is trauma in a negative image of itself. I pose it that way because the trauma is not and cannot be the same as the trauma of the victim. I pose it that way because no one escapes violence (or crime) unscathed (which I think was the point the Marquis de Sade was attempting to make in turning the language of power into a grammar and syntax of bodies and emotions). The perpetrator suffers too, but differently. Not that I am trying to generate a pool of sympathy for perpetrators. But I say it only to provide an acknowledgement that their lack of capacity produces numbness and denial, and a lifelong project of lying to oneself to legitimize their "right" or even "obligation" to harm another. It is trauma, but in a negative form (negative as in photography, in which the negative image produces the positive image through a reflection or obstruction of light). Perhaps it is worse for the perpetrator than the victim, because of this "perspective" that David mentions in his post. Still, I do not believe that a victim is only about me "being a victim." I can witness party A perpetrating an injustice upon party B and say to myself, "party B is a victim of party A." And orient myself empathically to each party, accordingly. I can be traumatized, for example, by the violent pornography of the footage released by Wikileaks of the Reuters journalists being gunned down by American soldiers in Iraq. (I actually did feel traumatized from that footage). I have no issue in myself calling the Reuters journalists and other Iraqis gunned down "victims". My outrage was justified against callous perpetrators, which includes outrage toward the leadership of my country. I just now wonder if this might be BECAUSE we were viewing the footage from the point of view of the soldiers, not the individuals in the street unwittingly walking into the crosshairs of assasination. I can't say exactly. So I trust perspective is important in the conception of understanding victims and their pain, but I do not agree that I can only use it when referring to whether I am a victim (or not). That seems part of the trap of denial of the dynamic of witnessing harm of a victim, whether me or someone else. That is why I feel that the word meaning for "victim" requires rehabilitation and its baggage needs to be thrown off the train, posthaste! It has to do, as I continue to reflect, with being articulate in a language of emotion and feeling. Those who hold power and possess empathy and compassion can attain a stature of being beloved, while those who hold power sans a language of emotion and feeling seem to be reviled or feared. Does that seem to hold water? Can the same be said of a victim? One who possess a language of empathy and compassion will go farther in healing and overcoming the act, than one who doesn't possess that ability. Perhaps this is why Spinoza is one to whom we circle back, while we grind the lens to see ourselves just a little bit better. He was attempting to understand emotion as a consequence of activities outside the person, making them passive, or what we might call in this conversation, a victim of circumstances beyond one's control or agency. This is why I feel "survivor" is somehow lacking, though perhaps it is an adequate word for afterwards, when one must resolve to live on despite the injustice. It is what is left over. I just don't like the word because one can be a survivor without experiencing justice or being made whole. "Survivor" seems to wash away the act that had been committed against the person, and thereby also the responsibility of perpetrator. Or am I thinking about this in the wrong way? How can language heal this harm perpetrated upon victims just being victims and perpetrators just being perpetrators? If only so justice can just be justice? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 4:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell's 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then "gaslighted", as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality - the victim mentality. It is short of saying "do not think" that you are victimised even if there is "victimisation", or you "were" victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with "survivors" but the conditions and the context under which" survivors" continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, "Critical Theory" to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of "survivorhood", where the conditions for thinking about or "reflecting" surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power - "scientific or unscientific". There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using "enlightened" ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation - the "doing something about their situation." Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!QT22K7LK0brmsWOy-93Y7Cev8Kte7gWkLsKTynTHte_vnStY23TD6lQXaoNVFj5dCUTzVw$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why "victim mentality" is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors' "survivors" if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but "Grievance Studies" and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about "scientific" knowledge (in this case in relation to "levels" of mental development and "ideology") and James Lindsay's argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call "Grievance studies", that perpetuates "self-pity" and "victim mentality". They further went on to produce fake scientific study "dog rape culture and feminism" known as "hoax science" as evidence of how unscientific "grievance studies" are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions - my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay's argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay's argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a "scientist" holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of "scientific evidence" - who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have "primitive mental functioning" or "unsophisticated" mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a "Trojan Horse", that's according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of "self-pity", "victim mentality", unsophisticated mental functioning, ... (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed "scientific tools"). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about "scientific" knowledge". It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire's "Education for the Oppressed" to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for "Education for the Depressed", which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S'ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice-a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as "grievance studies"-is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of "critical social justice" books, which he defines as "a codified way to indulge people into self pity..."(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire's book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay's says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay's critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay's position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating "level of mental functioning"? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself" (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the "hypothesis" of the scientific question are the "levels" of mental development which are associated to "skin colour", with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the "backwards" economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about "what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?" with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is "scientific", "rigorous scientific" and "scholarship" vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view - if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay's argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!QT22K7LK0brmsWOy-93Y7Cev8Kte7gWkLsKTynTHte_vnStY23TD6lQXaoNVFj6vBnkiZA$ Regards S'ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of "level" which is crucial to rendering the question "scientific". But couple with level, which could be quantifies as "high" and "low" or "superior" or "inferior" would account for "difference". As much as the question to be asked should be about the "ideological basis" , I think the "hypothesis" is likely to be linked to the "ideolody" as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear S'ma, I am not sure anyone could provide that "scientific" basis without first explaining what is meant by "level," and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the "scientific" basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Friends! I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the "the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two." Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference. Regards, S'ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of White, Phillip Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. This is horribly troubling Racist eugenics Please stop Phillip Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear Prof. David, Your message reads... "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list." I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying. Point 1 If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding. Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it..... as if it is founded on the color of the skin. Here I disagree and simply say.... Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two. Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that "it is justified". Please, try to understand me.... "Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there" OR "If it is justified OR not justified" is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said "filth" does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned "Level difference". Point 2 You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message. If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out... "The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis." I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe... an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views. If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void. Regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet > wrote: I agree Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za tel: +27 33 260 6163 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Mr. Dave: I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list. "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others." David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QT22K7LK0brmsWOy-93Y7Cev8Kte7gWkLsKTynTHte_vnStY23TD6lQXaoNVFj6FNgmWjQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QT22K7LK0brmsWOy-93Y7Cev8Kte7gWkLsKTynTHte_vnStY23TD6lQXaoNVFj5gyJ0FBw$ On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: David- Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself. Point 1: When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue. If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task. Point 2: Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- "Where the shoe pinches?" I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long. [Go to page 28 and it starts - "It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both............." It ends at page no. 35 - ".......... prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only."] The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience. Point 3: As concluded by David, "......but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts......" I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by "cast culture" but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of "cast culture". Regards, Harshad Dave On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QT22K7LK0brmsWOy-93Y7Cev8Kte7gWkLsKTynTHte_vnStY23TD6lQXaoNVFj6FNgmWjQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QT22K7LK0brmsWOy-93Y7Cev8Kte7gWkLsKTynTHte_vnStY23TD6lQXaoNVFj5gyJ0FBw$ On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra > wrote: Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless. Anthony On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave > wrote: Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog. Hi, This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word "apartheid" just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word "apartheid", however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra - The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic. I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020. There are two most probable answers. 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin. 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA. I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption. It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message. Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois - September 18, 1858. "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything." Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same. I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors. Regards, Harshad Dave On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Dear Harshad: I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically). "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid". Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QT22K7LK0brmsWOy-93Y7Cev8Kte7gWkLsKTynTHte_vnStY23TD6lQXaoNVFj6FNgmWjQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QT22K7LK0brmsWOy-93Y7Cev8Kte7gWkLsKTynTHte_vnStY23TD6lQXaoNVFj5gyJ0FBw$ On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: Dear all there, We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them. Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them. I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post. Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro. I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?" NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article. Regards, Harshad Dave This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/83b6d909/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jul 1 09:44:12 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:44:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Andy et Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective discoordination and infer the contradictions? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", > i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such > contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and > instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. > > Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite > harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the > contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not > automatic. > > But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without > "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the > sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative > activities, trust we will all die. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: > > Andy -- You write that " The structure is *built around* > *contradictions" * > Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures *contain* the *contradictions > *minist in social life? > I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural > structures that coordinate constituent > activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. > mike > and g'night! > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, >> which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look >> like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's *Logic *and >> Marx's *Capital *is a contradiction. The structure is built around >> *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the >> contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. >> >> Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system >> with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how >> Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in >> Marx's *Capital*." >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: >> >> David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the >> distinctions you are making? >> Mike >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning >>> of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That >>> there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and >>> likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and >>> "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree >>> that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the >>> development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." >>> >>> - >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!UtoKrfxi3sZ3NjF4DR5th-IZNVsQcMsq_kt9ksl6RVohAkfKsXZvVi4tIZ_i-TFY2aGx_Q$ >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: >>> >>> Mike, >>> >>> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is >>> that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been >>> influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true >>> poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with >>> the implications of such a turn. >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On >>> Behalf Of *mike cole >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism >>> one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? >>> >>> Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on >>> transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky >>> >>> and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? >>> >>> >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner wrote: >>> >>> S?ma et al., >>> >>> The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by >>> crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and >>> poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have >>> been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able >>> to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that >>> authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, >>> is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a >>> structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have >>> arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism >>> abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock >>> structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local >>> perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and >>> the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of >>> us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to >>> that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this >>> poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that >>> orients itself in structuralism. >>> >>> David >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Annalisa and colleagues >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable >>> manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for >>> conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum >>> such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response >>> below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this >>> situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then >>> ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? >>> the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are >>> victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. >>> Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the >>> context under which? survivors? continue to survive. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to >>> name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the >>> conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and >>> controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. >>> >>> >>> >>> There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of >>> different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors >>> have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with >>> new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving >>> them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, >>> including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more >>> interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by >>> intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the >>> oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the >>> ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly >>> game Tameka Jones Young >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!UtoKrfxi3sZ3NjF4DR5th-IZNVsQcMsq_kt9ksl6RVohAkfKsXZvVi4tIZ_i-TEocTdpHg$ >>> >>> (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why >>> ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who >>> are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? >>> ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome >>> protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for >>> this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though >>> her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her >>> monopoly analogy worth my reflection. >>> >>> >>> >>> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural >>> Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, >>> I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these >>> theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development >>> it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe >>> one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how >>> Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in >>> communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance >>> Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. >>> >>> >>> >>> It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections >>> can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller >>> groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our >>> learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and >>> unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I >>> at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> S?ma >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello S'ma and venerable others, >>> >>> >>> >>> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a >>> "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" >>> around the shoulders, etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as >>> grievous as Holocaust deniers. >>> >>> >>> >>> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is >>> intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have >>> been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might >>> be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping >>> off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying >>> logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is >>> usually not earned through merit. >>> >>> >>> >>> When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for >>> someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is >>> done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as >>> if they have no right to do so. >>> >>> >>> >>> So who has the right to use this word "victim"? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the >>> word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post >>> here. >>> >>> >>> >>> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate >>> victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something >>> unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and >>> even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful >>> effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). >>> >>> >>> >>> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? >>> >>> >>> >>> Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations >>> of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we >>> consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show >>> (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult >>> circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their >>> wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk >>> about social Darwinism! >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken >>> about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, >>> crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. >>> >>> >>> >>> Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: >>> >>> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or >>> agency: a victim of an automobile accident. >>> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own >>> emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal >>> agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a >>> victim of an optical illusion. >>> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war >>> victims. >>> 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. >>> >>> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: >>> >>> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, >>> gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, >>> pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, >>> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured >>> party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. >>> >>> >>> >>> I did the same for the term survivor: >>> >>> 1. a person or thing that survives. >>> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants >>> or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. >>> 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of >>> opposition, hardship, or setbacks. >>> >>> Synoymns: >>> >>> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, >>> remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts >>> >>> The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most >>> recent accepted meaning? >>> >>> >>> >>> It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and >>> survivors to be considered mere leftovers. >>> >>> >>> >>> Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible >>> batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't >>> that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for >>> their own unearned benefit and advancement? >>> >>> >>> >>> Is that fitness or crime? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered >>> against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word >>> without these undertowing currents of meaning? >>> >>> >>> >>> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." >>> or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," >>> "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My >>> ancestors were enslaved by yours." >>> >>> >>> >>> And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate >>> individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in >>> this fashion. >>> >>> >>> >>> Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an >>> oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am >>> a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors >>> enslaved yours." >>> >>> >>> >>> The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual >>> and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As >>> if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or >>> "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." >>> >>> >>> >>> While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), >>> who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, >>> I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those >>> who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase >>> like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of >>> shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just >>> they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that >>> Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering >>> perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. >>> >>> >>> >>> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in >>> past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means >>> justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la >>> vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from >>> "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? >>> >>> >>> >>> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of >>> justice to meet the crime? >>> >>> >>> >>> In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too >>> quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. >>> >>> >>> >>> This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about >>> power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems >>> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? >>> >>> >>> >>> Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and >>> their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or >>> the promotion of eugenics. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name >>> of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the >>> George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was >>> Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to >>> create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. >>> >>> >>> >>> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) >>> oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection >>> to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the >>> injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed >>> me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that >>> now. I see the errors of my ways." >>> >>> >>> >>> It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk >>> percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the >>> past, let's move on." >>> >>> >>> >>> There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid >>> self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd >>> sounding. >>> >>> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best >>> attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there >>> above. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela >>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> >>> Hi Andy and Alfredo >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video >>> I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between >>> the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in >>> relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James >>> Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the >>> video) is this: >>> >>> >>> >>> Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with >>> its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, >>> Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement >>> which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and >>> ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study >>> ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how >>> unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are >>> situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the >>> system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also >>> tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces >>> mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which >>> we have to be concerned about. >>> >>> >>> >>> The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am >>> not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, >>> I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of >>> ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an >>> idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we >>> aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives >>> associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with >>> ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein >>> bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the >>> name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological >>> connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in >>> specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental >>> functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected >>> ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like >>> a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( >>> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ >>> >>> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan >>> Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, >>> unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying >>> adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific >>> tools?). >>> >>> >>> >>> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources >>> that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I >>> referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? >>> knowledge?. >>> >>> >>> >>> It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for >>> the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook >>> for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we >>> take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for >>> Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical >>> Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is >>> generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge >>> accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to >>> advance the survival of humanity. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Simangele >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za >>> >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" >>> or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive >>> movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a >>> sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at >>> stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. >>> There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called >>> philanthropy and charity. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>> >>> thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss >>> what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video >>> critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance >>> studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this >>> conversation! >>> >>> >>> >>> In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not >>> so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions >>> Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social >>> justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into >>> self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with >>> Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, >>> as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether >>> Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory >>> scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an >>> example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? >>> >>> >>> >>> Alfredo >>> >>> *From: * >>> on behalf of Martin Packer >>> >>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> >>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 >>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> >>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Simangele, >>> >>> >>> >>> How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that >>> is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. >>> >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss >>> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my >>> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with >>> the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < >>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that >>> at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the >>> ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with >>> little consideration of the historical oppression that created the >>> ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what >>> appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more >>> about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black >>> skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. >>> >>> >>> >>> Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what >>> is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular >>> narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking >>> over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are >>> Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument >>> on ideologies. >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!UtoKrfxi3sZ3NjF4DR5th-IZNVsQcMsq_kt9ksl6RVohAkfKsXZvVi4tIZ_i-THnjuyseA$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> S?ma >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Simangele Mayisela >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Alfredo >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to >>> rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be >>> quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account >>> for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the >>> ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to >>> the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the >>> scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms >>> of the ideas. >>> >>> >>> >>> Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> S?ma >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UtoKrfxi3sZ3NjF4DR5th-IZNVsQcMsq_kt9ksl6RVohAkfKsXZvVi4tIZ_i-TFSUyEwFw$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UtoKrfxi3sZ3NjF4DR5th-IZNVsQcMsq_kt9ksl6RVohAkfKsXZvVi4tIZ_i-TFSUyEwFw$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UtoKrfxi3sZ3NjF4DR5th-IZNVsQcMsq_kt9ksl6RVohAkfKsXZvVi4tIZ_i-TFSUyEwFw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/575f8009/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jul 1 09:55:20 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 17:55:20 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: Yes. On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 17:47, mike cole wrote: > Andy et > > Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for > contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective > discoordination and infer the contradictions? > mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", >> i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such >> contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and >> instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. >> >> Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite >> harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the >> contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not >> automatic. >> >> But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible >> without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies >> through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, >> collaborative activities, trust we will all die. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: >> >> Andy -- You write that " The structure is *built around* >> *contradictions" * >> Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures *contain* the *contradictions >> *minist in social life? >> I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural >> structures that coordinate constituent >> activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. >> mike >> and g'night! >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, >>> which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look >>> like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's *Logic *and >>> Marx's *Capital *is a contradiction. The structure is built around >>> *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the >>> contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. >>> >>> Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system >>> with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how >>> Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in >>> Marx's *Capital*." >>> >>> andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the >>> distinctions you are making? >>> Mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the >>>> beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. >>>> That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, >>>> and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" >>>> and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree >>>> that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the >>>> development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." >>>> >>>> - >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!W958dLNWBe8e8mHNebZEL3ap4sxm_QVrZvlaHg2DsQI49NtBcKLtvnRYA5A_6-Z-Jj0Cdw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> >>>> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression >>>> is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been >>>> influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true >>>> poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with >>>> the implications of such a turn. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> *On >>>> Behalf Of *mike cole >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism >>>> one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? >>>> >>>> Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on >>>> transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky >>>> >>>> and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> S?ma et al., >>>> >>>> The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by >>>> crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and >>>> poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have >>>> been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able >>>> to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that >>>> authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, >>>> is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a >>>> structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have >>>> arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism >>>> abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock >>>> structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local >>>> perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and >>>> the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of >>>> us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to >>>> that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this >>>> poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that >>>> orients itself in structuralism. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Annalisa and colleagues >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable >>>> manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for >>>> conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum >>>> such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response >>>> below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this >>>> situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then >>>> ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? >>>> the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are >>>> victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. >>>> Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the >>>> context under which? survivors? continue to survive. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to >>>> name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the >>>> conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and >>>> controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of >>>> different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors >>>> have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with >>>> new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving >>>> them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, >>>> including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more >>>> interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by >>>> intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the >>>> oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the >>>> ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly >>>> game Tameka Jones Young >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!W958dLNWBe8e8mHNebZEL3ap4sxm_QVrZvlaHg2DsQI49NtBcKLtvnRYA5A_6-ZSVuhi-A$ >>>> >>>> (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights >>>> why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those >>>> who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the >>>> oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the >>>> gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is >>>> important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her >>>> articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong >>>> emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural >>>> Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, >>>> I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these >>>> theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development >>>> it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe >>>> one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how >>>> Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in >>>> communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance >>>> Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections >>>> can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller >>>> groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our >>>> learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and >>>> unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I >>>> at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello S'ma and venerable others, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a >>>> "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" >>>> around the shoulders, etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as >>>> grievous as Holocaust deniers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is >>>> intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have >>>> been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might >>>> be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping >>>> off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying >>>> logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is >>>> usually not earned through merit. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for >>>> someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is >>>> done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as >>>> if they have no right to do so. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So who has the right to use this word "victim"? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the >>>> word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post >>>> here. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate >>>> victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something >>>> unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and >>>> even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful >>>> effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations >>>> of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we >>>> consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show >>>> (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult >>>> circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their >>>> wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk >>>> about social Darwinism! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken >>>> about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, >>>> crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: >>>> >>>> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or >>>> agency: a victim of an automobile accident. >>>> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own >>>> emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal >>>> agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a >>>> victim of an optical illusion. >>>> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war >>>> victims. >>>> 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. >>>> >>>> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: >>>> >>>> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, >>>> gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, >>>> pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, >>>> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured >>>> party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I did the same for the term survivor: >>>> >>>> 1. a person or thing that survives. >>>> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants >>>> or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. >>>> 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of >>>> opposition, hardship, or setbacks. >>>> >>>> Synoymns: >>>> >>>> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, >>>> remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts >>>> >>>> The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most >>>> recent accepted meaning? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and >>>> survivors to be considered mere leftovers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible >>>> batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't >>>> that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for >>>> their own unearned benefit and advancement? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is that fitness or crime? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What then would one call an individual or group who has been >>>> overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is >>>> there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." >>>> or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," >>>> "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My >>>> ancestors were enslaved by yours." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate >>>> individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in >>>> this fashion. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an >>>> oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am >>>> a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors >>>> enslaved yours." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual >>>> and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As >>>> if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or >>>> "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the >>>> video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge >>>> to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe >>>> those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a >>>> phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow >>>> of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just >>>> they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that >>>> Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering >>>> perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in >>>> past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means >>>> justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la >>>> vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from >>>> "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of >>>> justice to meet the crime? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too >>>> quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about >>>> power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems >>>> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and >>>> their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or >>>> the promotion of eugenics. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name >>>> of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the >>>> George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was >>>> Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to >>>> create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) >>>> oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection >>>> to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the >>>> injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed >>>> me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that >>>> now. I see the errors of my ways." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk >>>> percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the >>>> past, let's move on." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid >>>> self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd >>>> sounding. >>>> >>>> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best >>>> attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there >>>> above. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela < >>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> Hi Andy and Alfredo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the >>>> video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection >>>> between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case >>>> in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James >>>> Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the >>>> video) is this: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose >>>> with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, >>>> Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement >>>> which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and >>>> ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study >>>> ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how >>>> unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are >>>> situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the >>>> system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also >>>> tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces >>>> mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which >>>> we have to be concerned about. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I >>>> am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical >>>> Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the >>>> influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? >>>> holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, >>>> as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, >>>> the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be >>>> tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and >>>> Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the >>>> masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid >>>> technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather >>>> than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive >>>> mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their >>>> unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical >>>> Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( >>>> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ >>>> >>>> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan >>>> Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, >>>> unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying >>>> adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific >>>> tools?). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources >>>> that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I >>>> referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? >>>> knowledge?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for >>>> the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook >>>> for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we >>>> take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for >>>> Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical >>>> Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is >>>> generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge >>>> accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to >>>> advance the survival of humanity. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Simangele >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" >>>> or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive >>>> movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a >>>> sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at >>>> stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. >>>> There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called >>>> philanthropy and charity. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>>> >>>> thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss >>>> what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video >>>> critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance >>>> studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this >>>> conversation! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not >>>> so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions >>>> Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social >>>> justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into >>>> self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with >>>> Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, >>>> as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether >>>> Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory >>>> scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an >>>> example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> >>>> *From: * >>>> on behalf of Martin Packer >>>> >>>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> >>>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 >>>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> >>>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Simangele, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that >>>> is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss >>>> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my >>>> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with >>>> the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < >>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me >>>> that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the >>>> ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with >>>> little consideration of the historical oppression that created the >>>> ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what >>>> appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more >>>> about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black >>>> skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what >>>> is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular >>>> narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking >>>> over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are >>>> Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument >>>> on ideologies. >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!W958dLNWBe8e8mHNebZEL3ap4sxm_QVrZvlaHg2DsQI49NtBcKLtvnRYA5A_6-appUzN9w$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Simangele Mayisela >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Alfredo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to >>>> rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be >>>> quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account >>>> for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the >>>> ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to >>>> the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the >>>> scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms >>>> of the ideas. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> >>> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >>> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >>> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >>> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!W958dLNWBe8e8mHNebZEL3ap4sxm_QVrZvlaHg2DsQI49NtBcKLtvnRYA5A_6-ZjHhAWvg$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!W958dLNWBe8e8mHNebZEL3ap4sxm_QVrZvlaHg2DsQI49NtBcKLtvnRYA5A_6-ZjHhAWvg$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!W958dLNWBe8e8mHNebZEL3ap4sxm_QVrZvlaHg2DsQI49NtBcKLtvnRYA5A_6-ZjHhAWvg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/7b8f401d/attachment-0001.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jul 1 10:58:40 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 17:58:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> , Message-ID: Hello Huw and Andy and Mike and even S'ma and Martin, as well as venerable others, I understand Huw's argument about leaving the remediation of black lives in the hands of government reform being misplaced, meaning the sentiment. However, there is in effect laws already that (are supposed to) protect the lives of our citizenry. We don't need new laws, but follow through. As such, the true problem is enforcement of those laws. If the government is the creator of laws and the enforcer of the laws and the government isn't doing that, and in reality agents of the government, i.e., police officers, and district attorney offices (who do not press charges), are looking the other way for reasons that quack like a duck, must mean its a duck! Then the question is how to get the government to do its job? I think defunding the police is a good route to take as a first step. Why is it possible to lay off laborers who might not be considered "effective workers" in a company, but not seek justice for bad cops? Remember that the government is representative of the people, for the people, by the people. We are not subjects, at least... not yet. I agree that malignancy, as you put it, is replicable. The process likely resembles the passing down of "genetic" pathologies biological and psychological in families and other social entities. Sunlight seems to be the best antidote. Isn't that what a court trial is intended to do? Or other legislative process? I'm not sure how the "remediation of black lives" could ever happen, if not through the government, but only if the people demand it as the citizenry. It should not come to protests, this should have been addressed long ago. Additionally, this conflict is also propelled by different ideologies of what a federal government is obliged to act upon. This manifests as a conflict between state's rights verses federal mandate, which is what the American Civil War was all about. I think it is misleading to pose the entire BLM movement as a cry for governmental reform. I think it has to do with living up to the laws that already exist. Murder is a crime and has been for quite a while. Why are police officers getting away with murder is the real question here. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 2:44 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] One could say that dialectics is only a partial account of the logic of mediation. Perhaps structuralism, to the degree that it differs, has some contribution or exercises some aspect of this. A robust study of institutions should include both a means of studying institutional malignancy and also their scope of operations. It is important to heed the prerogative of the institution for self-maintenance. When this self-maintenance is not predicated upon legitimate service then malignancy ensues. Hence the idealist hope for remediating 'black lives' placed in governmental reform seems misplaced. Huw On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 05:47, Andy Blunden > wrote: "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not automatic. But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative activities, trust we will all die. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: Andy -- You write that " The structure is built around contradictions" Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures contain the contradictions minist in social life? I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural structures that coordinate constituent activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. mike and g'night! On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's Logic and Marx's Capital is a contradiction. The structure is built around contradictions. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital." andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? Mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!XJa5FS83z80G_U3HlPpCKyIkbuDaNEGL_LlrGYl8G2IGpWqI2MtL1GboyqgY-CHsHhv4Ag$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: Mike, Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: S?ma et al., The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!XJa5FS83z80G_U3HlPpCKyIkbuDaNEGL_LlrGYl8G2IGpWqI2MtL1GboyqgY-CHbKJppQw$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!XJa5FS83z80G_U3HlPpCKyIkbuDaNEGL_LlrGYl8G2IGpWqI2MtL1GboyqgY-CH3Qw84kA$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XJa5FS83z80G_U3HlPpCKyIkbuDaNEGL_LlrGYl8G2IGpWqI2MtL1GboyqgY-CHlTMAn-w$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XJa5FS83z80G_U3HlPpCKyIkbuDaNEGL_LlrGYl8G2IGpWqI2MtL1GboyqgY-CHlTMAn-w$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/8c0a6025/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jul 1 11:32:04 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 19:32:04 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <5F54DF0E-58F1-4068-AFB9-718C4A3A3C5F@cantab.net> <013E7AC9-AC8B-45D5-8498-ACF0FF08423C@uio.no> Message-ID: This is a video I sent before in which Thomas Sowell questions the virtue of placing expectation or hope in a government's ability to reform social circumstances. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS5WYp5xmvI__;!!Mih3wA!RBIWB6goBl3Er3F9rjHMe_hZkmvxVp4J-ioMPM9G2iygq1xhVj5gbMhVhglPkN3q07bi8g$ And similar sentiments from Walter Williams: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZGvQcxoAPg__;!!Mih3wA!RBIWB6goBl3Er3F9rjHMe_hZkmvxVp4J-ioMPM9G2iygq1xhVj5gbMhVhglPkN1061kzfA$ Huw On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 19:00, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello Huw and Andy and Mike and even S'ma and Martin, as well as venerable > others, > > I understand Huw's argument about leaving the remediation of black lives > in the hands of government reform being misplaced, meaning the sentiment. > > However, there is in effect laws already that (are supposed to) protect > the lives of our citizenry. We don't need new laws, but follow through. > > As such, the true problem is enforcement of those laws. If the government > is the creator of laws and the enforcer of the laws and the government > isn't doing that, and in reality agents of the government, i.e., police > officers, and district attorney offices (who do not press charges), are > looking the other way for reasons that quack like a duck, must mean its a > duck! > > Then the question is how to get the government to do its job? > > I think defunding the police is a good route to take as a first step. Why > is it possible to lay off laborers who might not be considered "effective > workers" in a company, but not seek justice for bad cops? > > Remember that the government is representative of the people, for the > people, by the people. We are not subjects, at least... not yet. > > I agree that malignancy, as you put it, is replicable. The process likely > resembles the passing down of "genetic" pathologies biological and > psychological in families and other social entities. > > Sunlight seems to be the best antidote. > > Isn't that what a court trial is intended to do? Or other legislative > process? > > I'm not sure how the "remediation of black lives" could ever happen, if > not through the government, but only if the people demand it as the > citizenry. It should not come to protests, this should have been addressed > long ago. > > Additionally, this conflict is also propelled by different ideologies of > what a federal government is obliged to act upon. This manifests as a > conflict between state's rights verses federal mandate, which is what the > American Civil War was all about. > > I think it is misleading to pose the entire BLM movement as a cry for > governmental reform. > > I think it has to do with living up to the laws that already exist. > > Murder is a crime and has been for quite a while. > > Why are police officers getting away with murder is the real question > here. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 1, 2020 2:44 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > One could say that dialectics is only a partial account of the logic of > mediation. Perhaps structuralism, to the degree that it differs, has some > contribution or exercises some aspect of this. A robust study of > institutions should include both a means of studying institutional > malignancy and also their scope of operations. It is important to heed the > prerogative of the institution for self-maintenance. When this > self-maintenance is not predicated upon legitimate service then malignancy > ensues. Hence the idealist hope for remediating 'black lives' placed in > governmental reform seems misplaced. > > Huw > > On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 05:47, Andy Blunden wrote: > > "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", > i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such > contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and > instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. > > Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite > harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the > contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not > automatic. > > But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without > "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the > sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative > activities, trust we will all die. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: > > Andy -- You write that " The structure is *built around* > *contradictions" * > Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures *contain* the *contradictions > *minist in social life? > I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural > structures that coordinate constituent > activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. > mike > and g'night! > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, > which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look > like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's *Logic *and > Marx's *Capital *is a contradiction. The structure is built around > *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the > contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. > > Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with > its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and > Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's > *Capital*." > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: > > David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the > distinctions you are making? > Mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning > of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That > there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and > likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and > "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree > that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the > development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." > > - > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!RBIWB6goBl3Er3F9rjHMe_hZkmvxVp4J-ioMPM9G2iygq1xhVj5gbMhVhglPkN2olznuFQ$ > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: > > Mike, > > Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is > that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been > influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true > poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with > the implications of such a turn. > > David > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one > way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? > > Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on > transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky > > and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > > S?ma et al., > > The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents > of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist > thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a > modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with > an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its > significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a > structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project > as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about > the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist > mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can > encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood > is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is > purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and > assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political > Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the > political Left that orients itself in structuralism. > > David > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > > > Hi Annalisa and colleagues > > > > Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable > manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for > conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum > such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response > below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. > > > > Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this > situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then > ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? > the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are > victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. > Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the > context under which? survivors? continue to survive. > > > > Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, > and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the > conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and > controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. > > > > There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of > different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors > have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with > new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving > them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, > including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more > interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by > intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the > oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the > ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly > game Tameka Jones Young > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!RBIWB6goBl3Er3F9rjHMe_hZkmvxVp4J-ioMPM9G2iygq1xhVj5gbMhVhglPkN2_L_6wYA$ > > (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why > ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who > are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? > ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome > protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for > this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though > her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her > monopoly analogy worth my reflection. > > > > I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural > Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, > I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these > theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development > it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe > one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how > Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in > communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance > Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. > > > > It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can > continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. > What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. > I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious > ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times > pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. > > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a > "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" > around the shoulders, etc. > > > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as > grievous as Holocaust deniers. > > > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended > to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught > and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as > nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the > veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which > in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not > earned through merit. > > > > When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for > someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is > done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as > if they have no right to do so. > > > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > > > > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word > "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. > > > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate > victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something > unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and > even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful > effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). > > > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of > resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we > consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show > (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult > circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their > wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk > about social Darwinism! > > > > I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about > the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, > neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. > > > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: > > 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or > agency: a victim of an automobile accident. > 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions > or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a > victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an > optical illusion. > 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war > victims. > 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. > > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, > gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, > pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, > underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured > party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. > > > > I did the same for the term survivor: > > 1. a person or thing that survives. > 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or > others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. > 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of > opposition, hardship, or setbacks. > > Synoymns: > > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, > remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most > recent accepted meaning? > > > > It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and > survivors to be considered mere leftovers. > > > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries > to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what > criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own > unearned benefit and advancement? > > > > Is that fitness or crime? > > > > > > > > t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. > > > > > > What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered > against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word > without these undertowing currents of meaning? > > > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or > "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I > am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My > ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > > > And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate > individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in > this fashion. > > > > Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an > oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am > a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors > enslaved yours." > > > > The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and > descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to > say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This > happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." > > > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), > who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, > I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those > who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase > like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of > shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just > they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that > Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering > perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. > > > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in > past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means > justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la > vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from > "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? > > > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice > to meet the crime? > > > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, > but now it seems it is too slowly. > > > > This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about > power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems > unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? > > > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and > their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or > the promotion of eugenics. > > > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of > the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George > W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's > 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the > kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) > oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection > to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the > injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed > me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that > now. I see the errors of my ways." > > > > It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk > percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the > past, let's move on." > > > > There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, > and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. > > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? > > > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. > Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. > > > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I > referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between > the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in > relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James > Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the > video) is this: > > > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with > its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, > Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement > which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and > ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study > ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how > unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are > situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the > system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also > tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces > mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which > we have to be concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am > not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, > I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of > ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an > idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we > aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives > associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with > ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein > bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the > name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological > connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in > specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental > functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected > ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like > a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > > ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan > Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, > unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying > adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific > tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources > that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I > referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? > knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for > the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook > for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we > take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for > Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical > Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is > generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge > accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to > advance the survival of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > Simangele > > > > > > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or > "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive > movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a > sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at > stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. > There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called > philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss > what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video > critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance > studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this > conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so > well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions > Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social > justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into > self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with > Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, > as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether > Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory > scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an > example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is > something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my > partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with > the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that > at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the > ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with > little consideration of the historical oppression that created the > ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what > appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more > about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black > skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is > ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular > narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking > over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are > Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument > on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!RBIWB6goBl3Er3F9rjHMe_hZkmvxVp4J-ioMPM9G2iygq1xhVj5gbMhVhglPkN1CrFVmPA$ > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering > the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies > as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the > ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to > the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms > of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RBIWB6goBl3Er3F9rjHMe_hZkmvxVp4J-ioMPM9G2iygq1xhVj5gbMhVhglPkN3wYdy6WA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RBIWB6goBl3Er3F9rjHMe_hZkmvxVp4J-ioMPM9G2iygq1xhVj5gbMhVhglPkN3wYdy6WA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200701/3b6b664e/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Jul 1 16:59:11 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 09:59:11 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1) Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change, because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising thing. The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of movement. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: > Andy et > > Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination > for contradiction at least at the empirical level.? We > observe selective > discoordination and infer the contradictions? > mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as > there is a "logic", i.e., some institution. The > general idea is that all logics contain such > contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate > contradictions and instantiate a "logic," but it turns > out to be a losing battle. > > Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without > changing despite harbouring contradictions. The > structure has to be subject to critique; the > contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. > Movement and change is not automatic. > > But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, > is impossible without "institutions." We continue > building that aeroplane as it flies through the sky. > Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, > collaborative activities, trust we will all die. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: >> Andy -- You write that " The structure is /built >> around/ *contradictions" * >> Would?it be useful to say, also, that "structures >> /contain/ the *contradictions *minist?in social life? >> I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as >> sociocultural structures that coordinate constituent >> activities sufficiently?to enable human >> biocuturalsocial re-production.. >> mike >> and g'night! >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have >> erected giant structures, which explicate how a >> social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they >> look like structuralists. But look again. At the >> heart of Hegel's /Logic /and Marx's /Capital /is >> a contradiction. The structure is built around >> *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, >> at a certain point, the contradiction(s) unfolds >> as social transformation. >> >> Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate >> this idea in his system with its 4-levels of >> contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail >> how Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph >> "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's /Capital/." >> >> andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: >>> David,Andy. So what has transformational agency >>> to do with the distinctions you are making? >>> Mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> I beg to differ with you David. >>> "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of >>> the 20th century and poststructuralism from >>> the 1970s roughly. That there were >>> structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing >>> is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and >>> with Vygotsky. But as I see it, >>> "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are >>> specific historically bounded projects. I >>> agree that both of these projects have had >>> an impact or influence on the development of >>> Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are >>> "structuralist." >>> >>> * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!UO3GqHpf8x54Sb0F4DVygXFECH7CEZ4Md34ReAC-0dwNTy61-MyqVAlQKrWeKY0t-B9VlA$ >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> >>>> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural >>>> theorists. My guess/impression is that as >>>> critical theory and sociocultural theory >>>> evolved both have been influenced by >>>> poststructural thought, but neither has >>>> made a true poststructural turn; nor have >>>> scholars in either arena really grappled >>>> with the implications of such a turn. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *On Behalf Of *mike cole >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a >>>> question. >>>> >>>> That was a very clarifying note, David, >>>> thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to >>>> deal with mutability or stability of >>>> structure? >>>> >>>> Most of the marxist social science I am >>>> reading these days focuses?on >>>> transformational agency and take their >>>> roots from Vygotsky >>>> >>>> and (various )predecessors, so this is >>>> post-structuralist Marxism? >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H >>>> Kirshner >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> S?ma et al., >>>> >>>> The issue of victimhood and ?victim >>>> mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents >>>> of modernist and postmodernist, >>>> structuralist and poststructuralist >>>> thought. Victim mentality is always >>>> perspectival?I have been wronged. In a >>>> modernist frame, the perspective of >>>> victim may be able to be aligned with >>>> an overarching (i.e., structuralist) >>>> account that authorizes its >>>> significance. Critical theory, stemming >>>> from Marxist theory, is such a >>>> structuralist account?or perhaps, more >>>> accurately, a structuralist project as >>>> it is not clear that critical theorists >>>> have arrived at consensus about the >>>> theory. Postmodernism and >>>> poststructuralism abandon the >>>> structuralist mandate, accepting that >>>> there is no bedrock structural >>>> perspective that can encompass the >>>> variety of local perspectives. So my >>>> sense of my victimhood is simply my >>>> perspective, and the project of >>>> establishing its viability is purely a >>>> political one. Any of us can experience >>>> ourselves as victims, and assert a >>>> political claim to that effect. >>>> Interestingly, it is the political >>>> Right that embodies this >>>> poststructuralist critique of >>>> victimhood, and the political Left that >>>> orients itself in structuralism. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>> > >>>> *On Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>> > >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a >>>> question. >>>> >>>> Hi Annalisa and colleagues >>>> >>>> Thank you for processing my earlier >>>> articulation in such an impeccable >>>> manner. I see how your method of using >>>> definitions as a foundation for >>>> conversations, specially sensitive >>>> conversations in a multicultural forum >>>> such as this one. You have beautifully >>>> demonstrated that in your response >>>> below and in some of your previous >>>> enlightening contributions. >>>> >>>> Your reference to the George Orwell?s >>>> 1984 ?is quite fitting in this >>>> situation; when ?a victim expresses >>>> that they are victimised, they are then >>>> ?gaslighted?, as there is something >>>> seriously wrong with their mentality ? >>>> the victim mentality. It is short of >>>> saying ?do not think? that you are >>>> victimised even if there is >>>> ?victimisation?, or you ?were? >>>> victimised. Perhaps we can accept >>>> better with ?survivors? but the >>>> conditions and the context under which? >>>> survivors? continue to survive. >>>> >>>> Ok then, then the survivors develop a >>>> concept, ?Critical Theory? ?to name, >>>> and shine light on the hidden aspects >>>> of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions >>>> for thinking about or ?reflecting? >>>> surviving are determined and >>>> controlled, even those who have power ? >>>> ?scientific or unscientific?. >>>> >>>> There is undeniable history of efforts >>>> and activities of survivors of >>>> different forms oppressions and >>>> genocides, ?where generations of >>>> survivors have shown resilience and the >>>> ability to move on, but only to be met >>>> with new and systematic ways of >>>> ?psychological and economic oppression. >>>> Leaving them with no option but to >>>> survive by different means at the >>>> disposal, including becoming religious >>>> with the home for future redemption. Of >>>> more interest to me are those who keep >>>> trying using ???enlightened? ways by >>>> intellectually explaining to themselves >>>> as a collective and to the oppressor >>>> with the hope to bring about change for >>>> their situation ? the ?doing something >>>> about their situation.? Using the >>>> analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones >>>> Young >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!UO3GqHpf8x54Sb0F4DVygXFECH7CEZ4Md34ReAC-0dwNTy61-MyqVAlQKrWeKY1RpG1yqA$ >>>> >>>> (please watch if you a minute to spare) >>>> , has a way that highlights why ?victim >>>> mentality? is not an appropriate, or >>>> rather demeaning of those who are >>>> working hard to be free, let alone to >>>> be at par with the oppressors? >>>> ?survivors? if I may say so. The video >>>> is in the context of the gruesome >>>> protests after the murder of George >>>> Floyd, perhaps what is important for >>>> this conversation is the content, the >>>> meaning of her articulations, though >>>> her expressions are accompanied by very >>>> strong emotions, I found her monopoly >>>> analogy worth my reflection. >>>> >>>> I must say I owe it to myself to try >>>> draw some links between Cultural >>>> Historical Activity Theory, Critical >>>> Race Theory and Social Justice theory, >>>> I admire scholars, some who maybe in >>>> this thread who have used these >>>> theoretical lenses in their work in >>>> trying to understand mental development >>>> it the global context. I think Cultural >>>> Historical Activity Theory maybe one of >>>> the appropriate tools to explain that >>>> which concerns Lindsay; how Critical >>>> theory is finding its way of >>>> infiltrating critical spaces in >>>> communities, including academia, which >>>> he sees as nothing but ?Grievance >>>> Studies? ?and threatening scientific >>>> thinking. >>>> >>>> It has been good partaking in these >>>> conversations. I think reflections can >>>> continue to happen in private at a >>>> personal level and in smaller groups.? >>>> What is important is; yes need to >>>> reflect on our thinking and our >>>> learning. I myself have learned a lot >>>> from this thread, in conscious and >>>> unconscious ways I transform as I read >>>> your contributions, to the point I ?at >>>> times pleasantly surprise myself >>>> quoting what was said in this thread. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>> > >>>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>> > >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a >>>> question. >>>> >>>> Hello S'ma and venerable others, >>>> >>>> I was intrigued by this notion of >>>> Critical Theory being posed as a >>>> "grievance science," as if taking on a >>>> maudlin cape of "victim mentality" >>>> around the shoulders, etc. >>>> >>>> It seems something of a cop-out to >>>> reduce it to that. It is almost as >>>> grievous as Holocaust deniers. >>>> >>>> Still, to consider it analytically, >>>> Critical Theory by design is intended >>>> to uncover the ideologies by which >>>> certain social sciences have been >>>> taught and promulgated. It's >>>> de-constructive, right? This stance >>>> might be seen as nihilistic, but there >>>> has been some valuable work from >>>> stripping off the veneer of power >>>> structures in order to analyze its >>>> underlying logic, which in many cases >>>> has been arbitrary and reveals that >>>> privilege is usually not earned through >>>> merit. >>>> >>>> When considering relations of power, >>>> it's easy (albeit insensitive) for >>>> someone of privilege to name the >>>> powerless as "victims," but when this >>>> is done, it is only in an objection >>>> when victims call themselves victims, >>>> as if they have no right to do so. >>>> >>>> So who has the right to use this word >>>> "victim"? >>>> >>>> I feel there is a strange aura about >>>> the word that is likened to the word >>>> "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I >>>> am wrangling with in my post here. >>>> >>>> Must there be prejudice cast upon those >>>> who are actual and legitimate victims. >>>> There seems intertwined in the meaning >>>> of the word something unquantifiable >>>> but that does result in "blaming the >>>> victim" dynamics, and even more >>>> insidious, gaslighting, and these have >>>> results of its own harmful effects. >>>> (Like when we say "to add insult to >>>> injury"). >>>> >>>> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? >>>> >>>> Frequently people use the word >>>> "survivor," which does have >>>> connotations of resilience and >>>> fortitude against odds (of being >>>> victimized). But when we consider the >>>> word "survivor" when used as the name >>>> of a reality game show? (in the early >>>> naughts). where people choose to put >>>> themselves in difficult circumstances >>>> on deserted islands to overcome these >>>> circumstances by their wits, to then be >>>> "voted off the island" by the other >>>> "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! >>>> >>>> I feel there is still something the >>>> word "survivor" leaves unspoken about >>>> the representation of a person who has >>>> been a target of prejudice, crime, >>>> neglect, or abuse, whether >>>> intentionally or not. >>>> >>>> Curious, I looked up the definitions of >>>> "victim" and found these: >>>> >>>> 1. a person who suffers from a >>>> destructive or injurious action or >>>> agency: a victim of an automobile >>>> accident. >>>> 2. a person who is deceived or >>>> cheated, as by his or her own >>>> emotions or ignorance, by the >>>> dishonesty of others, or by some >>>> impersonal agency: a victim of >>>> misplaced confidence; the victim of >>>> a swindler; a victim of an optical >>>> illusion. >>>> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or >>>> regarded as sacrificed: war victims. >>>> 4. a living creature sacrificed in >>>> religious rites. >>>> >>>> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I >>>> find this: >>>> >>>> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, >>>> butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, >>>> gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, >>>> immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, >>>> pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, >>>> sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, >>>> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy >>>> make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, >>>> sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. >>>> >>>> I did the same for the term survivor: >>>> >>>> 1. a person or thing that survives. >>>> 2. Law. the one of two or more >>>> designated persons, as joint >>>> tenants or others having a joint >>>> interest, who outlives the other or >>>> others. >>>> 3. a person who continues to function >>>> or prosper in spite of opposition, >>>> hardship, or setbacks. >>>> >>>> Synoymns: >>>> >>>> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, >>>> oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, >>>> residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, >>>> odds and ends, orts >>>> >>>> The third definition seems the lest >>>> frequent usage, or is it the most >>>> recent accepted meaning? >>>> >>>> It is odd to consider victims as >>>> designated parties of sacrifice; and >>>> survivors to be considered mere leftovers. >>>> >>>> Is it that the life energy of victims >>>> are like easily accessible batteries to >>>> be utilized for the benefit of those >>>> not sacrificed? Isn't that what >>>> criminals do? To appropriate the >>>> property or energy of others for their >>>> own unearned benefit and advancement? >>>> >>>> Is that fitness or crime? >>>> >>>> t the same time to be a survivor seems >>>> to be something left less whole. >>>> >>>> What then would one call an individual >>>> or group who has been overpowered >>>> against their self-agency by another >>>> individual or group? Is there a word >>>> without these undertowing currents of >>>> meaning? >>>> >>>> We can say oppressed, but no one likes >>>> to say "I have been oppressed." or "I >>>> am oppressed," just as no one likes to >>>> say "I have been victimized," "I am a >>>> victim," or "My society is victimized >>>> by your society," or "My ancestors were >>>> enslaved by yours." >>>> >>>> And yet, these would be factual >>>> pronouncements, were legitimate >>>> individuals (victims) of those actual >>>> experiences to describe themselves in >>>> this fashion. >>>> >>>> Would it be no different than an >>>> individual saying, "I have been an >>>> oppressor." or "I oppress." No one >>>> likes to say "I victimize others," "I >>>> am a perpetrator," or "My society >>>> victimizes your society," or "My >>>> ancestors enslaved yours." >>>> >>>> The problem in making these sorts of >>>> statements is that while factual and >>>> descriptive, they can actually be >>>> twisted into being prescriptive. As if >>>> to say, "I did this and I can do it >>>> again because that's who I am." or >>>> "This happened to me and it can happen >>>> again because that's who I am." >>>> >>>> While there are people such as this >>>> Lindsay (I did not watch the video), >>>> who can throw about "victimization" as >>>> if it were a shameful badge to wear, I >>>> don't see anyone of that camp using the >>>> same disdain to describe those who >>>> performed grave injustices against >>>> others, to perhaps utter a phrase like >>>> "perpetrator of injustices", that might >>>> invoke that same shadow of shame. To my >>>> estimation, whatever the words, it >>>> would be right and just they should >>>> provide that? shadow of shame, given >>>> the injustices that Critical Theory is >>>> attempting to understand, without >>>> further empowering perpetrators and >>>> without further disempowering victims. >>>> >>>> Is the reason for this blindspot or >>>> lapse because a crime performed in past >>>> cannot be adjusted to correct for the >>>> crime, that it somehow means justice >>>> cannot be performed? In a sort of >>>> "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" >>>> kind of attitude? That no one believes >>>> exhuming the "dead bodies" from >>>> "unmarked graves" worth the >>>> unpleasantness of the task? >>>> >>>> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but >>>> so hard to bend the arc of justice to >>>> meet the crime? >>>> >>>> In the days of the American Wild West, >>>> justice was doled out too quickly, but >>>> now it seems it is too slowly. >>>> >>>> This is why I wonder how to consider >>>> science when we are talking about power >>>> structures. What is scientific about >>>> justice/injustice? Power seems >>>> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? >>>> >>>> Were we to describe the cause and >>>> effect of such power structures and >>>> their internal reasoning, it would >>>> start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or >>>> the promotion of eugenics. >>>> >>>> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview >>>> I saw many years ago, the name of the >>>> guest I don't remember. I only recall >>>> he was a politico for the George W Bush >>>> campaign, and the fellow claimed his >>>> favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if >>>> to say that it was an instruction >>>> booklet on how to create the kind of >>>> society he wanted. The blatant honesty >>>> was breathtaking. >>>> >>>> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of >>>> how in the case of (all forms of) >>>> oppression it's rare for the oppressor >>>> to say, "I have some self-reflection to >>>> do to answer for the deeds of my >>>> ancestors, to make up for the >>>> injustices suffered by your ancestors," >>>> or "My sense of privilege allowed me to >>>> oppress you, and I don't feel right >>>> about that, so I will stop that now. I >>>> see the errors of my ways." >>>> >>>> It feels there is no obligation for >>>> reconciliation because such folk >>>> percieve the cement of history has been >>>> poured and dried. "It's in the past, >>>> let's move on." >>>> >>>> There is something absurd about the >>>> tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, >>>> and I'm trying to sort out how it might >>>> be not to be so absurd sounding. >>>> >>>> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on >>>> this reflection? >>>> >>>> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very >>>> well, but that is my best attempt. >>>> Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and >>>> of course the typos there above. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>> > >>>> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela >>>> >>> > >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>> > >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a >>>> question. >>>> >>>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> Hi Andy and Alfredo >>>> >>>> Thank you for responding to my >>>> communication, and for viewing? the >>>> video I referred to in my previous >>>> email. Let me say that the connection >>>> between the current conversation about >>>> ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in >>>> relation to ?levels? of mental >>>> development and ?ideology?) and James >>>> Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory >>>> having no scientific basis (in the >>>> video) is this: >>>> >>>> Lindsayand his colleagues believe that >>>> Critical Theory, I suppose with its >>>> shoots like Critical Race Theory, >>>> Critical Race Feminist theory, >>>> ?Identity Theories, etc. do not have a >>>> scientific base but are a ?movement >>>> which they call ?Grievance studies?,? >>>> that perpetuates ?self-pity? and >>>> ?victim mentality?. They further went >>>> on to produce fake scientific study >>>> ?dog rape culture and feminism? known >>>> as ?hoax science? as evidence of how >>>> unscientific ?grievance studies? are;? >>>> most of which are of course are >>>> situated in the social sciences. This >>>> further exposed the paucity in the >>>> system of peer reviews in scientific >>>> journals, which some believe are also >>>> tainted by ideological predispositions >>>> ? my fear is that this introduces >>>> mistrust in the notion of review >>>> processes of scientific journals - >>>> ?which we have to be concerned about. >>>> >>>> The reason I brought up Lindsay?s >>>> argument to the picture is: while I am >>>> not certain if I wholly agree with >>>> Lindsay?s argument on Critical >>>> Theories, I ?am however fascinated by >>>> the fact that they confirm the >>>> influence of ideological position an >>>> individual or rather a ?scientist? >>>> holds,? ( an idea alluded to by some, >>>> earlier in this thread). I believe, as >>>> much as we aspire to be objective in >>>> our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the >>>> narratives associated with our >>>> scientific knowledge(s) are likely to >>>> be tainted with ideologically biases or >>>> historicity. The likes of Lindsay and >>>> Weinstein bring to our attention the >>>> dangers of the exclusion of the masses >>>> in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? >>>> who in this day of rapid technological >>>> connection the collective is gradually >>>> become global rather than in specific >>>> localities. Even those that deemed to >>>> have ?primitive mental functioning? or >>>> ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, >>>> their unexpected ability to infiltrate >>>> academia and other spaces with Critical >>>> Theory? like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s >>>> according to Bret Weinstein ( >>>> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ >>>> >>>> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder >>>> though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan >>>> Horse is scientific evidence of >>>> ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, >>>> unsophisticated mental functioning, ? >>>> (we can add other classifying >>>> adjectives to describe all those who >>>> have not developed ?scientific tools?). >>>> >>>> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is >>>> related to some of the sources that I >>>> have encountered earlier, clearly not >>>> on this YouTube video I referred you >>>> to, but it is ?within this line of >>>> debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. >>>> >>>> It seems to me that the association of >>>> ?Paulo Freire?s ??Education for the >>>> Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is >>>> kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for >>>> ?Education for the Depressed?, which is >>>> unfortunate, especially if we take into >>>> consideration all the publications by >>>> Freire, like Education for Liberation. >>>> Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy >>>> for the Critical Education is evidence >>>> of? the collectively formulated >>>> knowledge that is generously shared, >>>> rendering the commodified "scientific" >>>> knowledge accessible to the privileged >>>> few, generously shared to all who needs >>>> to advance the survival of humanity. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Simangele >>>> >>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>> > >>>> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a >>>> question. >>>> >>>> Casting collective efforts at >>>> self-determination as "victim >>>> mentality" or "self pity" has long been >>>> a line of right-wing criticism of >>>> progressive movements. Of all people, >>>> Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty >>>> of such a sin though; his pedagogy is >>>> aimed specifically, like Myles >>>> Horton's, at stimulating and equipping >>>> people from being victims to >>>> self-determination. There is such a >>>> thing as a politics of pity though; it >>>> is called philanthropy and charity. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet >>>> Gil wrote: >>>> >>>> thanks S?ma; among the many >>>> philosophy of science scholars who >>>> discuss what rigorous scientific >>>> and scholarship are or can be, your >>>> choice?a video critiquing critical >>>> theory in terms of what Lindsay >>>> refers to as ?grievance studies??is >>>> ?indeed surprising and remarkable >>>> in the context of this conversation! >>>> >>>> In the video, which did not so much >>>> touch my small Marxist me (I am not >>>> so well read so as to know how much >>>> of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay >>>> mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of >>>> the Oppressed as an example of >>>> ?critical social justice? books, >>>> which he defines as ?a codified way >>>> to indulge people into self >>>> pity??(min. 47:50). He complains >>>> that teachers are being educated >>>> with Freire?s book, and that >>>> students are being taught with this >>>> critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, >>>> this self-pity) attitude. Without >>>> going into whether Lindsay?s >>>> critique holds or has any touch >>>> with what critical theory scholars >>>> argue and do, I wonder, what would >>>> be, from Lindsay?s position, an >>>> example of a good book for >>>> teachers, and why would that one be >>>> it? >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> >>>> *From: >>>> * >>>> >>>> on behalf of Martin Packer >>>> >>>> >>>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, >>>> Culture, Activity" >>>> >>>> >>>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 >>>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>> Activity" >>>> >>>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views >>>> on a question. >>>> >>>> Hi Simangele, >>>> >>>> How are you evaluating ?level of >>>> mental functioning?? I would say >>>> that is something with which >>>> psychology has had some difficulty. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> /"I may say that whenever I meet >>>> Mrs.?Seligman or?Dr. Lowie or >>>> discuss matters?with >>>> Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, >>>> I?become at?once?aware that my >>>> partner does not understand >>>> anything in the matter, and I end >>>> usually?with the?feeling that this >>>> also applies to myself? >>>> (Malinowski, 1930)/ >>>> >>>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, >>>> Simangele Mayisela >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Further, ?I still have more >>>> questions, however it does >>>> appear to me that at the heart >>>> of the ?hypothesis? of the >>>> scientific question are the >>>> ?levels? of mental development >>>> which are associated to ?skin >>>> colour?, with little >>>> consideration of the historical >>>> oppression that created the >>>> ?backwards? economies that keep >>>> the third of the global >>>> population is what appears to >>>> be of low level of mental >>>> functioning. The question is >>>> more about ?what is the quality >>>> of the contents of what is >>>> embodies by the black skin or a >>>> white skin?? with the aim to >>>> find evidence for the difference. >>>> >>>> Just to share, lately? have >>>> been viewing James Lindsay >>>> argument on what is >>>> ?scientific?, ?rigorous >>>> scientific? and ?scholarship? >>>> ?vs? popular narratives that >>>> are a propaganda based on >>>> Critical Theory, which are >>>> taking over academy. Here is >>>> one his videos that you may >>>> want to view ? if you are >>>> Marxist at heart be warned that >>>> you may be challenged by >>>> Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!UO3GqHpf8x54Sb0F4DVygXFECH7CEZ4Md34ReAC-0dwNTy61-MyqVAlQKrWeKY13j9E2ng$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>>> *From:* Simangele Mayisela >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>> Activity >>>> >>> > >>>> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: >>>> Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> Dear Alfredo >>>> >>>> Thank you for taking my >>>> attention of ?level? which is >>>> crucial to rendering the >>>> question ?scientific?. But >>>> couple with level, which could >>>> be quantifies as ?high? and >>>> ?low? or ?superior? or >>>> ?inferior? would account for >>>> ?difference?. As much as the >>>> question to be asked should be >>>> about the ?ideological basis? , >>>> I think the ?hypothesis? is >>>> likely to be linked to the >>>> ?ideolody? as the hypothesis >>>> serves as springboard from >>>> which the scientist works from, >>>> which informs where the person >>>> ?will land ?in terms of the ideas. >>>> >>>> Nevertheless thank you for the >>>> clarification. I see what you >>>> mean ? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, >>> under similar hammers, and it will twist >>> itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the >>> same seed of rapacious license and oppression >>> over again, and it will surely yield the same >>> fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UO3GqHpf8x54Sb0F4DVygXFECH7CEZ4Md34ReAC-0dwNTy61-MyqVAlQKrWeKY1hbtXeGQ$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: >>> re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu >>> . >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under >> similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the >> same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious >> license and oppression over again, and it will >> surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. >> C.Dickens. >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UO3GqHpf8x54Sb0F4DVygXFECH7CEZ4Md34ReAC-0dwNTy61-MyqVAlQKrWeKY1hbtXeGQ$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu >> . >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> . >> >> >> > > > -- > > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under > similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same > tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license > and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UO3GqHpf8x54Sb0F4DVygXFECH7CEZ4Md34ReAC-0dwNTy61-MyqVAlQKrWeKY1hbtXeGQ$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200702/825b388c/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jul 1 19:11:14 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 11:11:14 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> Message-ID: This morning I have heard, from two very different human voices, that China is a totalitarian state in which the political structure inexorably determines agency. The first speaker, on an arts programme, cited his work in producing the London Olympics opening ceremony "in defiance" of the one which opened the Beijing Olympics: he set about artistically counterposing viscerality to pageantry. The second, on a science programme, spoke in awe of the ability of the municipal government of Wuhan to test the entire population in ten days--an achievement that he--rightly--valued higher than the construction of two large hospitals during the same time frame. It is interesting that both speakers denied that Chinese people might actually be exercising agency in both situations. I am trying to square this with my own experience in China. I was naive about a lot of things, but I don't think repression was one of them: I had certainly experienced repressive political structures in Sudan, Algeria, and Syria, in addition to my own country, where at the age of fourteen I had to sign an affidavit declaring that I was not a member of the Communist Party in order to get a summer gig at an A&W root beer stand! On Chinese television I heard of demonstrators being shot in the streets in Beijing, student leaders executed in Shanghai and sit-in protestors cut in half by trains; in Xinjiang and Guangzhou I witnessed public executions myself, and I certainly knew people who were imprisoned for their role in strikes, even when that role was merely acting as a mediator between workers and cops. I was fired from jobs for making statements of simple historical fact in Beijing and again in Xiamen, and I knew that I could not sue to get my job back. But there were three things which seemed to set me free, and which still sets life in China apart for me. The first was that for the first time in my life I was absolutely at liberty to say that I was a Marxist, even a Communist (although people would laugh at me and shake their heads and patiently explain that I didn't really know what I was on about). The second was that on public streets the vast majority of texts that I studied (I was still learning to read Chinese) had absolutely nothing to do with the exchange of commodities, the sale of information or branding of any kind. The third, however, was that almost everybody, including most Party members I knew, were unofficial, off-the-record, between-you-and-me dissidents of one kind or another. It struck me that the situation was really topsy-turvy. In the USA, where I was born, voting allowed a vast majority of people to regularly register as official dissenters, but in private there were hardly any people who opposed the social system as whole, that is, as a structure. (Isn't "contradiction" really a linguistic rather than a logical category? For that matter, isn't logic just a tidied up form of language, just as dialectics--hence the name--is a tidied up version of human voices?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!V5MRtRT8itUiBVI4OZBrmcb1ljjSLlhO5yXi4SKhmoZv9BAhTqNkhbPPKXe8T0U6JeoFlA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V5MRtRT8itUiBVI4OZBrmcb1ljjSLlhO5yXi4SKhmoZv9BAhTqNkhbPPKXe8T0W1gPUEew$ On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with > "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than > logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1) > Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that > is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' > reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and > aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change, > because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look > to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and > insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could > possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a > social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising > thing. > > The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of > movement. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: > > Andy et > > Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for > contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective > discoordination and infer the contradictions? > mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", >> i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such >> contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and >> instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. >> >> Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite >> harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the >> contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not >> automatic. >> >> But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible >> without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies >> through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, >> collaborative activities, trust we will all die. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: >> >> Andy -- You write that " The structure is *built around* >> *contradictions" * >> Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures *contain* the *contradictions >> *minist in social life? >> I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural >> structures that coordinate constituent >> activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. >> mike >> and g'night! >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, >>> which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look >>> like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's *Logic *and >>> Marx's *Capital *is a contradiction. The structure is built around >>> *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the >>> contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. >>> >>> Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system >>> with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how >>> Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in >>> Marx's *Capital*." >>> >>> andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the >>> distinctions you are making? >>> Mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the >>>> beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. >>>> That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, >>>> and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" >>>> and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree >>>> that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the >>>> development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." >>>> >>>> - >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!V5MRtRT8itUiBVI4OZBrmcb1ljjSLlhO5yXi4SKhmoZv9BAhTqNkhbPPKXe8T0Vyb_s1Yw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> >>>> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression >>>> is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been >>>> influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true >>>> poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with >>>> the implications of such a turn. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> *On >>>> Behalf Of *mike cole >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism >>>> one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? >>>> >>>> Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on >>>> transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky >>>> >>>> and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> S?ma et al., >>>> >>>> The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by >>>> crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and >>>> poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have >>>> been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able >>>> to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that >>>> authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, >>>> is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a >>>> structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have >>>> arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism >>>> abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock >>>> structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local >>>> perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and >>>> the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of >>>> us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to >>>> that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this >>>> poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that >>>> orients itself in structuralism. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Annalisa and colleagues >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable >>>> manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for >>>> conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum >>>> such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response >>>> below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this >>>> situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then >>>> ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? >>>> the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are >>>> victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. >>>> Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the >>>> context under which? survivors? continue to survive. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to >>>> name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the >>>> conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and >>>> controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of >>>> different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors >>>> have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with >>>> new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving >>>> them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, >>>> including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more >>>> interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by >>>> intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the >>>> oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the >>>> ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly >>>> game Tameka Jones Young >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!V5MRtRT8itUiBVI4OZBrmcb1ljjSLlhO5yXi4SKhmoZv9BAhTqNkhbPPKXe8T0VEFd6Ekw$ >>>> >>>> (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights >>>> why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those >>>> who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the >>>> oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the >>>> gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is >>>> important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her >>>> articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong >>>> emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural >>>> Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, >>>> I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these >>>> theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development >>>> it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe >>>> one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how >>>> Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in >>>> communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance >>>> Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections >>>> can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller >>>> groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our >>>> learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and >>>> unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I >>>> at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello S'ma and venerable others, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a >>>> "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" >>>> around the shoulders, etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as >>>> grievous as Holocaust deniers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is >>>> intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have >>>> been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might >>>> be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping >>>> off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying >>>> logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is >>>> usually not earned through merit. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for >>>> someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is >>>> done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as >>>> if they have no right to do so. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So who has the right to use this word "victim"? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the >>>> word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post >>>> here. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate >>>> victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something >>>> unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and >>>> even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful >>>> effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations >>>> of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we >>>> consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show >>>> (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult >>>> circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their >>>> wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk >>>> about social Darwinism! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken >>>> about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, >>>> crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: >>>> >>>> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or >>>> agency: a victim of an automobile accident. >>>> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own >>>> emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal >>>> agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a >>>> victim of an optical illusion. >>>> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war >>>> victims. >>>> 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. >>>> >>>> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: >>>> >>>> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, >>>> gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, >>>> pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, >>>> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured >>>> party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I did the same for the term survivor: >>>> >>>> 1. a person or thing that survives. >>>> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants >>>> or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. >>>> 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of >>>> opposition, hardship, or setbacks. >>>> >>>> Synoymns: >>>> >>>> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, >>>> remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts >>>> >>>> The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most >>>> recent accepted meaning? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and >>>> survivors to be considered mere leftovers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible >>>> batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't >>>> that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for >>>> their own unearned benefit and advancement? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is that fitness or crime? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What then would one call an individual or group who has been >>>> overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is >>>> there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." >>>> or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," >>>> "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My >>>> ancestors were enslaved by yours." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate >>>> individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in >>>> this fashion. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an >>>> oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am >>>> a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors >>>> enslaved yours." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual >>>> and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As >>>> if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or >>>> "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the >>>> video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge >>>> to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe >>>> those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a >>>> phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow >>>> of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just >>>> they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that >>>> Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering >>>> perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in >>>> past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means >>>> justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la >>>> vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from >>>> "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of >>>> justice to meet the crime? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too >>>> quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about >>>> power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems >>>> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and >>>> their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or >>>> the promotion of eugenics. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name >>>> of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the >>>> George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was >>>> Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to >>>> create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) >>>> oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection >>>> to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the >>>> injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed >>>> me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that >>>> now. I see the errors of my ways." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk >>>> percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the >>>> past, let's move on." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid >>>> self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd >>>> sounding. >>>> >>>> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best >>>> attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there >>>> above. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela < >>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> Hi Andy and Alfredo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the >>>> video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection >>>> between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case >>>> in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James >>>> Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the >>>> video) is this: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose >>>> with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, >>>> Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement >>>> which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and >>>> ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study >>>> ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how >>>> unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are >>>> situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the >>>> system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also >>>> tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces >>>> mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which >>>> we have to be concerned about. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I >>>> am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical >>>> Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the >>>> influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? >>>> holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, >>>> as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, >>>> the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be >>>> tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and >>>> Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the >>>> masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid >>>> technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather >>>> than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive >>>> mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their >>>> unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical >>>> Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( >>>> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ >>>> >>>> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan >>>> Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, >>>> unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying >>>> adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific >>>> tools?). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources >>>> that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I >>>> referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? >>>> knowledge?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for >>>> the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook >>>> for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we >>>> take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for >>>> Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical >>>> Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is >>>> generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge >>>> accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to >>>> advance the survival of humanity. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Simangele >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" >>>> or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive >>>> movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a >>>> sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at >>>> stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. >>>> There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called >>>> philanthropy and charity. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>>> >>>> thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss >>>> what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video >>>> critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance >>>> studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this >>>> conversation! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not >>>> so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions >>>> Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social >>>> justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into >>>> self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with >>>> Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, >>>> as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether >>>> Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory >>>> scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an >>>> example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> >>>> *From: * >>>> on behalf of Martin Packer >>>> >>>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> >>>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 >>>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> >>>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Simangele, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that >>>> is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss >>>> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my >>>> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with >>>> the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < >>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me >>>> that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the >>>> ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with >>>> little consideration of the historical oppression that created the >>>> ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what >>>> appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more >>>> about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black >>>> skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what >>>> is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular >>>> narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking >>>> over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are >>>> Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument >>>> on ideologies. >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!V5MRtRT8itUiBVI4OZBrmcb1ljjSLlhO5yXi4SKhmoZv9BAhTqNkhbPPKXe8T0VZTzcfEA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Simangele Mayisela >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Alfredo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to >>>> rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be >>>> quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account >>>> for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the >>>> ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to >>>> the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the >>>> scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms >>>> of the ideas. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> >>> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >>> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >>> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >>> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V5MRtRT8itUiBVI4OZBrmcb1ljjSLlhO5yXi4SKhmoZv9BAhTqNkhbPPKXe8T0W9QQe--A$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V5MRtRT8itUiBVI4OZBrmcb1ljjSLlhO5yXi4SKhmoZv9BAhTqNkhbPPKXe8T0W9QQe--A$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!V5MRtRT8itUiBVI4OZBrmcb1ljjSLlhO5yXi4SKhmoZv9BAhTqNkhbPPKXe8T0W9QQe--A$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200702/9445f61e/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Jul 1 21:11:51 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 14:11:51 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> Message-ID: <0f470e7a-376b-5749-56d0-3ef757e57abd@marxists.org> Your observations square with ever so milder versions of what I have experienced and heard re the DDR. I remember as liberating the total absence of advertising and even the annoying absence of a customer-service-provider mentality, and at the same time being covertly approach for illicit foreign exchange transactions made me feel dirty and oozed oppression. Anyway, I don't think this is a structure/agency issue. The Chinese leadership know exactly what they are doing. Your observations about the US more clearly implicate structure/agency distinctions, in my view. As to Logic and Language, as I have previously remarked in this connection, David, for a man with a hammer everything is a nail. One of the problems is for people to presume that Logic (and concepts) is some kind of non-material entity, while speech and action are somehow more material. If you see these forms of human life as somehow "immaterial" then any rational account of human life is going appear "idealist" but the "idealism" is really on the other foot. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 12:11 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > This morning I have heard, from two very different human > voices, that China is a totalitarian state in which the > political structure inexorably determines agency. The > first speaker, on an arts programme, cited his work > in?producing the London Olympics opening ceremony "in > defiance" of the?one which opened the?Beijing Olympics: he > set about artistically counterposing viscerality to > pageantry. The second, on a science programme, spoke in > awe of the ability of the municipal government of Wuhan to > test the entire population in ten days--an achievement > that he--rightly--valued higher than the construction of > two large hospitals during the same time frame. It is > interesting that both speakers denied that Chinese people > might actually be exercising agency in both situations. > > I am trying to square this with my own experience in > China. I was naive about a lot of things, but?I don't > think repression was one of them: I had certainly > experienced repressive political structures in Sudan, > Algeria, and?Syria, in addition to my own country, where > at the age of fourteen I had to sign an affidavit > declaring that I was not a member of the Communist Party > in order to get a summer gig at an A&W root beer stand! On > Chinese television I heard of?demonstrators being?shot in > the streets in Beijing,?student leaders executed in > Shanghai and sit-in protestors cut in half by trains; in > Xinjiang and Guangzhou?I witnessed public executions > myself, and I certainly?knew people who were imprisoned > for their role in strikes, even when that role was merely > acting as a mediator between workers and cops. I was?fired > from jobs for making statements of simple historical fact > in Beijing and again in Xiamen, and I knew that?I could > not sue to get my job back. But there were three things > which seemed to set me free, and which still sets life > in?China?apart for me. > > The first was that for the first time in my life I was > absolutely at liberty to say that I was a Marxist, even a > Communist (although people would laugh at me and shake > their heads and patiently explain that I didn't really > know what I was on about). The second was that on public > streets the vast majority of texts that?I studied (I was > still learning to read Chinese)?had absolutely nothing to > do with the exchange of commodities, the sale of > information or branding of any kind. The third, however, > was that almost everybody, including most Party members I > knew, were unofficial, off-the-record, > between-you-and-me?dissidents?of one kind or another. It > struck me that the situation was really topsy-turvy. In > the USA, where I was born, voting allowed a vast majority > of people to regularly register as?official dissenters, > but in private there were hardly any people who opposed > the social system as?whole, that is, as a structure. > (Isn't "contradiction" really a linguistic rather than a > logical category? For that matter, isn't logic just a > tidied up form of language, just as?dialectics--hence the > name--is a tidied up version of?human voices?) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a > manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XG20jZAulcz4arWPBi7LhZYB_jxeuQVJcTP3B-xAOd_aKMu7wM_bQr0x0D1qy16hyPIBrA$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XG20jZAulcz4arWPBi7LhZYB_jxeuQVJcTP3B-xAOd_aKMu7wM_bQr0x0D1qy150xfCkXQ$ > > > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > I am guessing that the aim of replacing > "contradiction" with "disco-ordination" is locate the > essential process in activity rather than logic. This > is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. > (1) Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour > rather than activity, that is, physical movements that > are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' reasons or > intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts > norms and aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are > impulses to social change, because the norms are not > confronted by alternative norms - one has to look to > why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things > for reasons and insofar as people do different things > for the same reason, which could possibly cause > disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to > a social formation. A certain amount of > disco-ordination can be a stabilising thing. > > The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, > not just patterns of movement. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: >> Andy et >> >> Is it permissible to substitute the term, >> discoordination for contradiction at least at the >> empirical level.? We observe selective >> discoordination and infer the contradictions? >> mike >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept >> insofar as there is a "logic", i.e., some >> institution. The general idea is that all logics >> contain such contradictions. Institutions "try" >> to eliminate contradictions and instantiate a >> "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. >> >> Nonetheless, an institution can live forever >> without changing despite harbouring >> contradictions. The structure has to be subject >> to critique; the contradictions have to be >> exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not >> automatic. >> >> But yes, you are right, life, let alone social >> life, is impossible without "institutions." We >> continue building that aeroplane as it flies >> through the sky. Without institutions, norms, >> shared meanings, collaborative activities, trust >> we will all die. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: >>> Andy -- You write that " The structure is /built >>> around/ *contradictions" * >>> Would?it be useful to say, also, that >>> "structures /contain/ the *contradictions >>> *minist?in social life? >>> I am asking because i am thinking of >>> institutions as sociocultural structures that >>> coordinate constituent >>> activities sufficiently?to enable human >>> biocuturalsocial re-production.. >>> mike >>> and g'night! >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to >>> have erected giant structures, which >>> explicate how a social formation reproduces >>> itself. I.e., they look like structuralists. >>> But look again. At the heart of Hegel's >>> /Logic /and Marx's /Capital /is a >>> contradiction. The structure is built around >>> *contradictions*. Under the impact of >>> critique, at a certain point, the >>> contradiction(s) unfolds as social >>> transformation. >>> >>> Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to >>> incorporate this idea in his system with its >>> 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov >>> explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did it >>> in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and >>> Concrete in Marx's /Capital/." >>> >>> andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: >>>> David,Andy. So what has transformational >>>> agency to do with the distinctions you are >>>> making? >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy >>>> Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I beg to differ with you David. >>>> "Structuralism" dates from the >>>> beginning of the 20th century and >>>> poststructuralism from the 1970s >>>> roughly. That there were structuralist >>>> tendencies in Marx's writing is >>>> undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and >>>> with Vygotsky. But as I see it, >>>> "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" >>>> are specific historically bounded >>>> projects. I agree that both of these >>>> projects have had an impact or >>>> influence on the development of >>>> Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither >>>> are "structuralist." >>>> >>>> * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!XG20jZAulcz4arWPBi7LhZYB_jxeuQVJcTP3B-xAOd_aKMu7wM_bQr0x0D1qy14r5MnrNA$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> >>>>> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural >>>>> theorists. My guess/impression is that >>>>> as critical theory and sociocultural >>>>> theory evolved both have been >>>>> influenced by poststructural thought, >>>>> but neither has made a true >>>>> poststructural turn; nor have scholars >>>>> in either arena really grappled with >>>>> the implications of such a turn. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *On Behalf Of *mike cole >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on >>>>> a question. >>>>> >>>>> That was a very clarifying note, >>>>> David, thanks. So is cultural marxism >>>>> one way to deal with mutability or >>>>> stability of structure? >>>>> >>>>> Most of the marxist social science I >>>>> am reading these days focuses?on >>>>> transformational agency and take their >>>>> roots from Vygotsky >>>>> >>>>> and? (various )predecessors, so this >>>>> is post-structuralist Marxism? >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David >>>>> H Kirshner >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> S?ma et al., >>>>> >>>>> The issue of victimhood and >>>>> ?victim mentality? is roiled by >>>>> crosscurrents of modernist and >>>>> postmodernist, structuralist and >>>>> poststructuralist thought. Victim >>>>> mentality is always perspectival?I >>>>> have been wronged. In a modernist >>>>> frame, the perspective of victim >>>>> may be able to be aligned with an >>>>> overarching (i.e., structuralist) >>>>> account that authorizes its >>>>> significance. Critical theory, >>>>> stemming from Marxist theory, is >>>>> such a structuralist account?or >>>>> perhaps, more accurately, a >>>>> structuralist project as it is not >>>>> clear that critical theorists have >>>>> arrived at consensus about the >>>>> theory. Postmodernism and >>>>> poststructuralism abandon the >>>>> structuralist mandate, accepting >>>>> that there is no bedrock >>>>> structural perspective that can >>>>> encompass the variety of local >>>>> perspectives. So my sense of my >>>>> victimhood is simply my >>>>> perspective, and the project of >>>>> establishing its viability is >>>>> purely a political one. Any of us >>>>> can experience ourselves as >>>>> victims, and assert a political >>>>> claim to that effect. >>>>> Interestingly, it is the political >>>>> Right that embodies this >>>>> poststructuralist critique of >>>>> victimhood, and the political Left >>>>> that orients itself in structuralism. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> *From:* >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *On Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>>> Activity >>>> > >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views >>>>> on a question. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Annalisa and colleagues >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for processing my >>>>> earlier articulation in such an >>>>> impeccable manner. I see how your >>>>> method of using definitions as a >>>>> foundation for conversations, >>>>> specially sensitive conversations >>>>> in a multicultural forum such as >>>>> this one. You have beautifully >>>>> demonstrated that in your response >>>>> below and in some of your previous >>>>> enlightening contributions. >>>>> >>>>> Your reference to the George >>>>> Orwell?s 1984 ?is quite fitting in >>>>> this situation; when ?a victim >>>>> expresses that they are >>>>> victimised, they are then >>>>> ?gaslighted?, as there is >>>>> something seriously wrong with >>>>> their mentality ? the victim >>>>> mentality. It is short of saying >>>>> ?do not think? that you are >>>>> victimised even if there is >>>>> ?victimisation?, or you ?were? >>>>> victimised. Perhaps we can accept >>>>> better with ?survivors? but the >>>>> conditions and the context under >>>>> which? survivors? continue to >>>>> survive. >>>>> >>>>> Ok then, then the survivors >>>>> develop a concept, ?Critical >>>>> Theory? ?to name, and shine light >>>>> on the hidden aspects of >>>>> ?survivorhood?, where the >>>>> conditions for thinking about or >>>>> ?reflecting? surviving are >>>>> determined and controlled, even >>>>> those who have power ? ?scientific >>>>> or unscientific?. >>>>> >>>>> There is undeniable history of >>>>> efforts and activities of >>>>> survivors of different forms >>>>> oppressions and genocides, ?where >>>>> generations of survivors have >>>>> shown resilience and the ability >>>>> to move on, but only to be met >>>>> with new and systematic ways of >>>>> ?psychological and economic >>>>> oppression. Leaving them with no >>>>> option but to survive by different >>>>> means at the disposal, including >>>>> becoming religious with the home >>>>> for future redemption. Of more >>>>> interest to me are those who keep >>>>> trying using ???enlightened? ways >>>>> by intellectually explaining to >>>>> themselves as a collective and to >>>>> the oppressor with the hope to >>>>> bring about change for their >>>>> situation ? the ?doing something >>>>> about their situation.? Using the >>>>> analogy of a monopoly game Tameka >>>>> Jones Young >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!XG20jZAulcz4arWPBi7LhZYB_jxeuQVJcTP3B-xAOd_aKMu7wM_bQr0x0D1qy148t9ggQQ$ >>>>> >>>>> (please watch if you a minute to >>>>> spare) , has a way that highlights >>>>> why ?victim mentality? is not an >>>>> appropriate, or rather demeaning >>>>> of those who are working hard to >>>>> be free, let alone to be at par >>>>> with the oppressors? ?survivors? >>>>> if I may say so. The video is in >>>>> the context of the gruesome >>>>> protests after the murder of >>>>> George Floyd, perhaps what is >>>>> important for this conversation is >>>>> the content, the meaning of her >>>>> articulations, though her >>>>> expressions are accompanied by >>>>> very strong emotions, I found her >>>>> monopoly analogy worth my reflection. >>>>> >>>>> I must say I owe it to myself to >>>>> try draw some links between >>>>> Cultural Historical Activity >>>>> Theory, Critical Race Theory and >>>>> Social Justice theory, I admire >>>>> scholars, some who maybe in this >>>>> thread who have used these >>>>> theoretical lenses in their work >>>>> in trying to understand mental >>>>> development it the global context. >>>>> I think Cultural Historical >>>>> Activity Theory maybe one of the >>>>> appropriate tools to explain that >>>>> which concerns Lindsay; how >>>>> Critical theory is finding its way >>>>> of infiltrating critical spaces in >>>>> communities, including academia, >>>>> which he sees as nothing but >>>>> ?Grievance Studies? ?and >>>>> threatening scientific thinking. >>>>> >>>>> It has been good partaking in >>>>> these conversations. I think >>>>> reflections can continue to happen >>>>> in private at a personal level and >>>>> in smaller groups. What is >>>>> important is; yes need to reflect >>>>> on our thinking and our learning. >>>>> I myself have learned a lot from >>>>> this thread, in conscious and >>>>> unconscious ways I transform as I >>>>> read your contributions, to the >>>>> point I ?at times pleasantly >>>>> surprise myself quoting what was >>>>> said in this thread. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> S?ma >>>>> >>>>> *From:* >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>>> Activity >>>> > >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views >>>>> on a question. >>>>> >>>>> Hello S'ma and venerable others, >>>>> >>>>> I was intrigued by this notion of >>>>> Critical Theory being posed as a >>>>> "grievance science," as if taking >>>>> on a maudlin cape of "victim >>>>> mentality" around the shoulders, etc. >>>>> >>>>> It seems something of a cop-out to >>>>> reduce it to that. It is almost as >>>>> grievous as Holocaust deniers. >>>>> >>>>> Still, to consider it >>>>> analytically, Critical Theory by >>>>> design is intended to uncover the >>>>> ideologies by which certain social >>>>> sciences have been taught and >>>>> promulgated. It's de-constructive, >>>>> right? This stance might be seen >>>>> as nihilistic, but there has been >>>>> some valuable work from stripping >>>>> off the veneer of power structures >>>>> in order to analyze its underlying >>>>> logic, which in many cases has >>>>> been arbitrary and reveals that >>>>> privilege is usually not earned >>>>> through merit. >>>>> >>>>> When considering relations of >>>>> power, it's easy (albeit >>>>> insensitive) for someone of >>>>> privilege to name the powerless as >>>>> "victims," but when this is done, >>>>> it is only in an objection when >>>>> victims call themselves victims, >>>>> as if they have no right to do so. >>>>> >>>>> So who has the right to use this >>>>> word "victim"? >>>>> >>>>> I feel there is a strange aura >>>>> about the word that is likened to >>>>> the word "masochistic" and it's >>>>> *that baggage* I am wrangling with >>>>> in my post here. >>>>> >>>>> Must there be prejudice cast upon >>>>> those who are actual and >>>>> legitimate victims. There seems >>>>> intertwined in the meaning of the >>>>> word something unquantifiable but >>>>> that does result in "blaming the >>>>> victim" dynamics, and even more >>>>> insidious, gaslighting, and these >>>>> have results of its own harmful >>>>> effects. (Like when we say "to add >>>>> insult to injury"). >>>>> >>>>> Can no one use the word "victim" >>>>> anymore? >>>>> >>>>> Frequently people use the word >>>>> "survivor," which does have >>>>> connotations of resilience and >>>>> fortitude against odds (of being >>>>> victimized). But when we consider >>>>> the word "survivor" when used as >>>>> the name of a reality game show? >>>>> (in the early naughts). where >>>>> people choose to put themselves in >>>>> difficult circumstances on >>>>> deserted islands to overcome these >>>>> circumstances by their wits, to >>>>> then be "voted off the island" by >>>>> the other "survivors." Talk about >>>>> social Darwinism! >>>>> >>>>> I feel there is still something >>>>> the word "survivor" leaves >>>>> unspoken about the representation >>>>> of a person who has been a target >>>>> of prejudice, crime, neglect, or >>>>> abuse, whether intentionally or not. >>>>> >>>>> Curious, I looked up the >>>>> definitions of "victim" and found >>>>> these: >>>>> >>>>> 1. a person who suffers from a >>>>> destructive or injurious >>>>> action or agency: a victim of >>>>> an automobile accident. >>>>> 2. a person who is deceived or >>>>> cheated, as by his or her own >>>>> emotions or ignorance, by the >>>>> dishonesty of others, or by >>>>> some impersonal agency: a >>>>> victim of misplaced >>>>> confidence; the victim of a >>>>> swindler; a victim of an >>>>> optical illusion. >>>>> 3. a person or animal sacrificed >>>>> or regarded as sacrificed: war >>>>> victims. >>>>> 4. a living creature sacrificed >>>>> in religious rites. >>>>> >>>>> When I look up synonyms for >>>>> "victim" I find this: >>>>> >>>>> casualty, fatality, martyr, >>>>> sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, >>>>> gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, >>>>> hireling, immolation, innocent, >>>>> mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, >>>>> pushover, quarry, sacrifice, >>>>> scapegoat, stooge, sucker, >>>>> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, >>>>> easy make, easy mark, hunted, >>>>> injured party, sitting duck, >>>>> sitting target, soft touch. >>>>> >>>>> I did the same for the term survivor: >>>>> >>>>> 1. a person or thing that survives. >>>>> 2. Law. the one of two or more >>>>> designated persons, as joint >>>>> tenants or others having a >>>>> joint interest, who outlives >>>>> the other or others. >>>>> 3. a person who continues to >>>>> function or prosper in spite >>>>> of opposition, hardship, or >>>>> setbacks. >>>>> >>>>> Synoymns: >>>>> >>>>> balance, debris, leftovers, >>>>> legacy, oddments, remainder, >>>>> remnant, remnants, residue, rest, >>>>> scraps, surplus, trash, odds and >>>>> ends, orts >>>>> >>>>> The third definition seems? the >>>>> lest frequent usage, or is it the >>>>> most recent accepted meaning? >>>>> >>>>> It is odd to consider victims as >>>>> designated parties of sacrifice; >>>>> and survivors to be considered >>>>> mere leftovers. >>>>> >>>>> Is it that the life energy of >>>>> victims are like easily accessible >>>>> batteries to be utilized for the >>>>> benefit of those not sacrificed? >>>>> Isn't that what criminals do? To >>>>> appropriate the property or energy >>>>> of others for their own unearned >>>>> benefit and advancement? >>>>> >>>>> Is that fitness or crime? >>>>> >>>>> t the same time to be a survivor >>>>> seems to be something left less >>>>> whole. >>>>> >>>>> What then would one call an >>>>> individual or group who has been >>>>> overpowered against their >>>>> self-agency by another individual >>>>> or group? Is there a word without >>>>> these undertowing currents of meaning? >>>>> >>>>> We can say oppressed, but no one >>>>> likes to say "I have been >>>>> oppressed." or "I am oppressed," >>>>> just as no one likes to say "I >>>>> have been victimized," "I am a >>>>> victim," or "My society is >>>>> victimized by your society," or >>>>> "My ancestors were enslaved by >>>>> yours." >>>>> >>>>> And yet, these would be factual >>>>> pronouncements, were legitimate >>>>> individuals (victims) of those >>>>> actual experiences to describe >>>>> themselves in this fashion. >>>>> >>>>> Would it be no different than an >>>>> individual saying, "I have been an >>>>> oppressor." or "I oppress." No one >>>>> likes to say "I victimize others," >>>>> "I am a perpetrator," or "My >>>>> society victimizes your society," >>>>> or "My ancestors enslaved yours." >>>>> >>>>> The problem in making these sorts >>>>> of statements is that while >>>>> factual and descriptive, they can >>>>> actually be twisted into being >>>>> prescriptive. As if to say, "I did >>>>> this and I can do it again because >>>>> that's who I am." or "This >>>>> happened to me and it can happen >>>>> again because that's who I am." >>>>> >>>>> While there are people such as >>>>> this Lindsay (I did not watch the >>>>> video), who can throw about >>>>> "victimization" as if it were a >>>>> shameful badge to wear, I don't >>>>> see anyone of that camp using the >>>>> same disdain to describe those who >>>>> performed grave injustices against >>>>> others, to perhaps utter a phrase >>>>> like "perpetrator of injustices", >>>>> that might invoke that same shadow >>>>> of shame. To my estimation, >>>>> whatever the words, it would be >>>>> right and just they should provide >>>>> that shadow of shame, given the >>>>> injustices that Critical Theory is >>>>> attempting to understand, without >>>>> further empowering perpetrators >>>>> and without further disempowering >>>>> victims. >>>>> >>>>> Is the reason for this blindspot >>>>> or lapse because a crime performed >>>>> in past cannot be adjusted to >>>>> correct for the crime, that it >>>>> somehow means justice cannot be >>>>> performed? In a sort of "shrugged >>>>> shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of >>>>> attitude? That no one believes >>>>> exhuming the "dead bodies" from >>>>> "unmarked graves" worth the >>>>> unpleasantness of the task? >>>>> >>>>> Why is it easy to commit the >>>>> crime, but so hard to bend the arc >>>>> of justice to meet the crime? >>>>> >>>>> In the days of the American Wild >>>>> West, justice was doled out too >>>>> quickly, but now it seems it is >>>>> too slowly. >>>>> >>>>> This is why I wonder how to >>>>> consider science when we are >>>>> talking about power structures. >>>>> What is scientific about >>>>> justice/injustice? Power seems >>>>> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or >>>>> is it? >>>>> >>>>> Were we to describe the cause and >>>>> effect of such power structures >>>>> and their internal reasoning, it >>>>> would start to sound like Nazi >>>>> propaganda, or the promotion of >>>>> eugenics. >>>>> >>>>> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers >>>>> interview I saw many years ago, >>>>> the name of the guest I don't >>>>> remember. I only recall he was a >>>>> politico for the George W Bush >>>>> campaign, and the fellow claimed >>>>> his favorite book was Orwell's >>>>> 1984, as if to say that it was an >>>>> instruction booklet on how to >>>>> create the kind of society he >>>>> wanted. The blatant honesty was >>>>> breathtaking. >>>>> >>>>> Reading S'ma's post made me aware >>>>> of how in the case of (all forms >>>>> of) oppression it's rare for the >>>>> oppressor to say, "I have some >>>>> self-reflection to do to answer >>>>> for the deeds of my ancestors, to >>>>> make up for the injustices >>>>> suffered by your ancestors," or >>>>> "My sense of privilege allowed me >>>>> to oppress you, and I don't feel >>>>> right about that, so I will stop >>>>> that now. I see the errors of my >>>>> ways." >>>>> >>>>> It feels there is no obligation >>>>> for reconciliation because such >>>>> folk percieve the cement of >>>>> history has been poured and dried. >>>>> "It's in the past, let's move on." >>>>> >>>>> There is something absurd about >>>>> the tacit agreement to avoid >>>>> self-naming, and I'm trying to >>>>> sort out how it might be not to be >>>>> so absurd sounding. >>>>> >>>>> Has anyone a hand up to provide me >>>>> on this reflection? >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure I'm articulating this >>>>> very well, but that is my best >>>>> attempt. Forgive any flaws in my >>>>> reasoning, and of course the typos >>>>> there above. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 >>>>> 6:04 AM >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>>> Activity >>>> > >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views >>>>> on a question. >>>>> >>>>> *[EXTERNAL]* >>>>> >>>>> Hi Andy and Alfredo >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for responding to my >>>>> communication, and for viewing? >>>>> the video I referred to in my >>>>> previous email. Let me say that >>>>> the connection between the current >>>>> conversation about ?scientific? >>>>> knowledge (in this case in >>>>> relation to ?levels? of mental >>>>> development and ?ideology?) and >>>>> James Lindsay?s argument on >>>>> Critical Theory having no >>>>> scientific basis (in the video) is >>>>> this: >>>>> >>>>> Lindsayand his colleagues believe >>>>> that Critical Theory, I suppose >>>>> with its shoots like Critical Race >>>>> Theory, Critical Race Feminist >>>>> theory, ?Identity Theories, etc. >>>>> do not have a scientific base but >>>>> are a ?movement which they call >>>>> ?Grievance studies?, that >>>>> perpetuates ?self-pity? and >>>>> ?victim mentality?. They further >>>>> went on to produce fake scientific >>>>> study ?dog rape culture and >>>>> feminism? known as ?hoax science? >>>>> as evidence of how unscientific >>>>> ?grievance studies? are; most of >>>>> which are of course are situated >>>>> in the social sciences. This >>>>> further exposed the paucity in the >>>>> system of peer reviews in >>>>> scientific journals, which some >>>>> believe are also tainted by >>>>> ideological predispositions ? my >>>>> fear is that this introduces >>>>> mistrust in the notion of review >>>>> processes of scientific journals - >>>>> ?which we have to be concerned about. >>>>> >>>>> The reason I brought up Lindsay?s >>>>> argument to the picture is: while >>>>> I am not certain if I wholly agree >>>>> with Lindsay?s argument on >>>>> Critical Theories, I ?am however >>>>> fascinated by the fact that they >>>>> confirm the influence of >>>>> ideological position an individual >>>>> or rather a ?scientist? holds,? ( >>>>> an idea alluded to by some, >>>>> earlier in this thread). I >>>>> believe, as much as we aspire to >>>>> be objective in our pursuit of >>>>> scientific enquiry, the narratives >>>>> associated with our scientific >>>>> knowledge(s) are likely to be >>>>> tainted with ideologically biases >>>>> or historicity. The likes of >>>>> Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our >>>>> attention the dangers of the >>>>> exclusion of the masses in the >>>>> name of ?scientific evidence? ? >>>>> who in this day of rapid >>>>> technological connection the >>>>> collective is gradually become >>>>> global rather than in specific >>>>> localities. Even those that deemed >>>>> to have ?primitive mental >>>>> functioning? or ?unsophisticated? >>>>> mental functioning, their >>>>> unexpected ability to infiltrate >>>>> academia and other spaces with >>>>> Critical Theory? like a? ?Trojan >>>>> Horse?, that?s according to Bret >>>>> Weinstein ( >>>>> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ >>>>> >>>>> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder >>>>> though, if Critical Theorists' >>>>> Trojan Horse is scientific >>>>> evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim >>>>> mentality?, unsophisticated mental >>>>> functioning, ? (we can add other >>>>> classifying adjectives to describe >>>>> all those who have not developed >>>>> ?scientific tools?). >>>>> >>>>> My reference to Lindsay and >>>>> Marxism, is related to some of the >>>>> sources that I have encountered >>>>> earlier, clearly not on this >>>>> YouTube video I referred you to, >>>>> but it is ?within this line of >>>>> debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me that the >>>>> association of ?Paulo Freire?s >>>>> ??Education for the Oppressed? to >>>>> "victim mentality" is kind of >>>>> twisted and perhaps mistook for >>>>> ?Education for the Depressed?, >>>>> which is unfortunate, especially >>>>> if we take into consideration all >>>>> the publications by Freire, like >>>>> Education for Liberation. >>>>> Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse >>>>> analogy for the Critical Education >>>>> is evidence of the collectively >>>>> formulated knowledge that is >>>>> generously shared, rendering the >>>>> commodified "scientific" knowledge >>>>> accessible to the privileged few, >>>>> generously shared to all who needs >>>>> to advance the survival of humanity. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Simangele >>>>> >>>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 >>>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views >>>>> on a question. >>>>> >>>>> Casting collective efforts at >>>>> self-determination as "victim >>>>> mentality" or "self pity" has long >>>>> been a line of right-wing >>>>> criticism of progressive >>>>> movements. Of all people, Paulo >>>>> Freire is the last to be guilty of >>>>> such a sin though; his pedagogy is >>>>> aimed specifically, like Myles >>>>> Horton's, at stimulating and >>>>> equipping people from being >>>>> victims to self-determination. >>>>> There is such a thing as a >>>>> politics of pity though; it is >>>>> called philanthropy and charity. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo >>>>> Jornet Gil wrote: >>>>> >>>>> thanks S?ma; among the many >>>>> philosophy of science scholars >>>>> who discuss what rigorous >>>>> scientific and scholarship are >>>>> or can be, your choice?a video >>>>> critiquing critical theory in >>>>> terms of what Lindsay refers >>>>> to as ?grievance studies??is >>>>> ?indeed surprising and >>>>> remarkable in the context of >>>>> this conversation! >>>>> >>>>> In the video, which did not so >>>>> much touch my small Marxist me >>>>> (I am not so well read so as >>>>> to know how much of a Marxist >>>>> I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo >>>>> Freire?s Pedagogy of the >>>>> Oppressed as an example of >>>>> ?critical social justice? >>>>> books, which he defines as ?a >>>>> codified way to indulge people >>>>> into self pity??(min. 47:50). >>>>> He complains that teachers are >>>>> being educated with Freire?s >>>>> book, and that students are >>>>> being taught with this >>>>> critical (or, as Lindsay?s >>>>> says, this self-pity) >>>>> attitude. Without going into >>>>> whether Lindsay?s critique >>>>> holds or has any touch with >>>>> what critical theory scholars >>>>> argue and do, I wonder, what >>>>> would be, from Lindsay?s >>>>> position, an example of a good >>>>> book for teachers, and why >>>>> would that one be it? >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> >>>>> *From: >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> on behalf of Martin Packer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, >>>>> Culture, Activity" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 >>>>> at 23:54 >>>>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>>> Activity" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your >>>>> views on a question. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Simangele, >>>>> >>>>> How are you evaluating ?level >>>>> of mental functioning?? I >>>>> would say that is something >>>>> with which psychology has had >>>>> some difficulty. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> /"I may say that whenever I >>>>> meet Mrs.?Seligman or?Dr. >>>>> Lowie or discuss matters?with >>>>> Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, >>>>> I?become at?once?aware that my >>>>> partner does not understand >>>>> anything in the matter, and I >>>>> end usually?with the?feeling >>>>> that this also applies to >>>>> myself? (Malinowski, 1930)/ >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 >>>>> PM, Simangele Mayisela >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Further, ?I still have >>>>> more questions, however it >>>>> does appear to me that at >>>>> the heart of the >>>>> ?hypothesis? of the >>>>> scientific question are >>>>> the ?levels? of mental >>>>> development which are >>>>> associated to ?skin >>>>> colour?, with little >>>>> consideration of the >>>>> historical oppression that >>>>> created the ?backwards? >>>>> economies that keep the >>>>> third of the global >>>>> population is what appears >>>>> to be of low level of >>>>> mental functioning. The >>>>> question is more about >>>>> ?what is the quality of >>>>> the contents of what is >>>>> embodies by the black skin >>>>> or a white skin?? with the >>>>> aim to find evidence for >>>>> the difference. >>>>> >>>>> Just to share, lately? >>>>> have been viewing James >>>>> Lindsay argument on what >>>>> is ?scientific?, ?rigorous >>>>> scientific? and >>>>> ?scholarship? ?vs? popular >>>>> narratives that are a >>>>> propaganda based on >>>>> Critical Theory, which are >>>>> taking over academy. Here >>>>> is one his videos that you >>>>> may want to view ? if you >>>>> are Marxist at heart be >>>>> warned that you may be >>>>> challenged by Lindsay?s >>>>> argument on ideologies. >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!XG20jZAulcz4arWPBi7LhZYB_jxeuQVJcTP3B-xAOd_aKMu7wM_bQr0x0D1qy15ZWjZG4w$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> S?ma >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Simangele Mayisela >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June >>>>> 2020 22:10 >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, >>>>> Culture, Activity >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] >>>>> Re: Your views on a question. >>>>> >>>>> Dear Alfredo >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for taking my >>>>> attention of ?level? which >>>>> is crucial to rendering >>>>> the question ?scientific?. >>>>> But couple with level, >>>>> which could be quantifies >>>>> as ?high? and ?low? or >>>>> ?superior? or ?inferior? >>>>> would account for >>>>> ?difference?. As much as >>>>> the question to be asked >>>>> should be about the >>>>> ?ideological basis? , I >>>>> think the ?hypothesis? is >>>>> likely to be linked to the >>>>> ?ideolody? as the >>>>> hypothesis serves as >>>>> springboard from which the >>>>> scientist works from, >>>>> which informs where the >>>>> person ?will land ?in >>>>> terms of the ideas. >>>>> >>>>> Nevertheless thank you for >>>>> the clarification. I see >>>>> what you mean ? >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> S?ma >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> Crush human humanity out of shape once >>>> more, under similar hammers, and it will >>>> twist itself into the same tortured >>>> forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious >>>> license and oppression over again, and it >>>> will surely yield the same fruit, >>>> according to its kind. C.Dickens. >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> Cultural Praxis Website: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XG20jZAulcz4arWPBi7LhZYB_jxeuQVJcTP3B-xAOd_aKMu7wM_bQr0x0D1qy17C_DR0ug$ >>>> >>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: >>>> re-generatingchat.com >>>> >>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu >>>> . >>>> Narrative history of LCHC: >>>> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, >>> under similar hammers, and it will twist >>> itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the >>> same seed of rapacious license and oppression >>> over again, and it will surely yield the same >>> fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XG20jZAulcz4arWPBi7LhZYB_jxeuQVJcTP3B-xAOd_aKMu7wM_bQr0x0D1qy17C_DR0ug$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: >>> re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu >>> . >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under >> similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the >> same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious >> license and oppression over again, and it will >> surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. >> C.Dickens. >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XG20jZAulcz4arWPBi7LhZYB_jxeuQVJcTP3B-xAOd_aKMu7wM_bQr0x0D1qy17C_DR0ug$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu >> . >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> . >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200702/31ad3b18/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jul 2 00:13:17 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 08:13:17 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> Message-ID: Cognitive coordination is realised with signs. On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 01:02, Andy Blunden wrote: > I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with > "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than > logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1) > Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that > is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' > reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and > aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change, > because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look > to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and > insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could > possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a > social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising > thing. > > The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of > movement. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: > > Andy et > > Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for > contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective > discoordination and infer the contradictions? > mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", >> i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such >> contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and >> instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. >> >> Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite >> harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the >> contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not >> automatic. >> >> But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible >> without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies >> through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, >> collaborative activities, trust we will all die. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: >> >> Andy -- You write that " The structure is *built around* >> *contradictions" * >> Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures *contain* the *contradictions >> *minist in social life? >> I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural >> structures that coordinate constituent >> activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. >> mike >> and g'night! >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, >>> which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look >>> like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's *Logic *and >>> Marx's *Capital *is a contradiction. The structure is built around >>> *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the >>> contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. >>> >>> Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system >>> with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how >>> Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in >>> Marx's *Capital*." >>> >>> andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the >>> distinctions you are making? >>> Mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the >>>> beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. >>>> That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, >>>> and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" >>>> and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree >>>> that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the >>>> development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." >>>> >>>> - >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkqYzt4Myg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> >>>> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression >>>> is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been >>>> influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true >>>> poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with >>>> the implications of such a turn. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> *On >>>> Behalf Of *mike cole >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism >>>> one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? >>>> >>>> Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on >>>> transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky >>>> >>>> and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> S?ma et al., >>>> >>>> The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by >>>> crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and >>>> poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have >>>> been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able >>>> to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that >>>> authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, >>>> is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a >>>> structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have >>>> arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism >>>> abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock >>>> structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local >>>> perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and >>>> the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of >>>> us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to >>>> that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this >>>> poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that >>>> orients itself in structuralism. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Annalisa and colleagues >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable >>>> manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for >>>> conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum >>>> such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response >>>> below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this >>>> situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then >>>> ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? >>>> the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are >>>> victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. >>>> Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the >>>> context under which? survivors? continue to survive. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to >>>> name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the >>>> conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and >>>> controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of >>>> different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors >>>> have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with >>>> new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving >>>> them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, >>>> including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more >>>> interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by >>>> intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the >>>> oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the >>>> ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly >>>> game Tameka Jones Young >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkqAWvd-yw$ >>>> >>>> (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights >>>> why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those >>>> who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the >>>> oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the >>>> gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is >>>> important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her >>>> articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong >>>> emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural >>>> Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, >>>> I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these >>>> theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development >>>> it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe >>>> one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how >>>> Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in >>>> communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance >>>> Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections >>>> can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller >>>> groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our >>>> learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and >>>> unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I >>>> at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar >>>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello S'ma and venerable others, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a >>>> "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" >>>> around the shoulders, etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as >>>> grievous as Holocaust deniers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is >>>> intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have >>>> been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might >>>> be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping >>>> off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying >>>> logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is >>>> usually not earned through merit. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for >>>> someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is >>>> done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as >>>> if they have no right to do so. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So who has the right to use this word "victim"? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the >>>> word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post >>>> here. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate >>>> victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something >>>> unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and >>>> even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful >>>> effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations >>>> of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we >>>> consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show >>>> (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult >>>> circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their >>>> wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk >>>> about social Darwinism! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken >>>> about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, >>>> crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: >>>> >>>> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or >>>> agency: a victim of an automobile accident. >>>> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own >>>> emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal >>>> agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a >>>> victim of an optical illusion. >>>> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war >>>> victims. >>>> 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. >>>> >>>> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: >>>> >>>> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, >>>> gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, >>>> pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, >>>> underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured >>>> party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I did the same for the term survivor: >>>> >>>> 1. a person or thing that survives. >>>> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants >>>> or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. >>>> 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of >>>> opposition, hardship, or setbacks. >>>> >>>> Synoymns: >>>> >>>> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, >>>> remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts >>>> >>>> The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most >>>> recent accepted meaning? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and >>>> survivors to be considered mere leftovers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible >>>> batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't >>>> that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for >>>> their own unearned benefit and advancement? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is that fitness or crime? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What then would one call an individual or group who has been >>>> overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is >>>> there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." >>>> or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," >>>> "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My >>>> ancestors were enslaved by yours." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate >>>> individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in >>>> this fashion. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an >>>> oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am >>>> a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors >>>> enslaved yours." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual >>>> and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As >>>> if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or >>>> "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the >>>> video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge >>>> to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe >>>> those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a >>>> phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow >>>> of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just >>>> they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that >>>> Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering >>>> perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in >>>> past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means >>>> justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la >>>> vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from >>>> "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of >>>> justice to meet the crime? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too >>>> quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about >>>> power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems >>>> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and >>>> their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or >>>> the promotion of eugenics. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name >>>> of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the >>>> George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was >>>> Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to >>>> create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) >>>> oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection >>>> to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the >>>> injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed >>>> me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that >>>> now. I see the errors of my ways." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk >>>> percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the >>>> past, let's move on." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid >>>> self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd >>>> sounding. >>>> >>>> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best >>>> attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there >>>> above. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela < >>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>>> >>>> Hi Andy and Alfredo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the >>>> video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection >>>> between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case >>>> in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James >>>> Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the >>>> video) is this: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose >>>> with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, >>>> Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement >>>> which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and >>>> ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study >>>> ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how >>>> unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are >>>> situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the >>>> system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also >>>> tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces >>>> mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which >>>> we have to be concerned about. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I >>>> am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical >>>> Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the >>>> influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? >>>> holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, >>>> as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, >>>> the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be >>>> tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and >>>> Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the >>>> masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid >>>> technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather >>>> than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive >>>> mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their >>>> unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical >>>> Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( >>>> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ >>>> >>>> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan >>>> Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, >>>> unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying >>>> adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific >>>> tools?). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources >>>> that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I >>>> referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? >>>> knowledge?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for >>>> the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook >>>> for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we >>>> take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for >>>> Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical >>>> Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is >>>> generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge >>>> accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to >>>> advance the survival of humanity. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Simangele >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za >>>> >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" >>>> or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive >>>> movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a >>>> sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at >>>> stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. >>>> There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called >>>> philanthropy and charity. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>>> >>>> thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss >>>> what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video >>>> critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance >>>> studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this >>>> conversation! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not >>>> so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions >>>> Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social >>>> justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into >>>> self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with >>>> Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, >>>> as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether >>>> Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory >>>> scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an >>>> example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> >>>> *From: * >>>> on behalf of Martin Packer >>>> >>>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> >>>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 >>>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> >>>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Simangele, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that >>>> is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss >>>> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my >>>> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with >>>> the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < >>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me >>>> that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the >>>> ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with >>>> little consideration of the historical oppression that created the >>>> ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what >>>> appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more >>>> about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black >>>> skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what >>>> is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular >>>> narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking >>>> over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are >>>> Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument >>>> on ideologies. >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkoun94NBQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Simangele Mayisela >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Alfredo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to >>>> rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be >>>> quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account >>>> for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the >>>> ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to >>>> the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the >>>> scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms >>>> of the ideas. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> S?ma >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> >>> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >>> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >>> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >>> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkqTBX6svA$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and >> it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of >> rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the >> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkqTBX6svA$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XVhsb1Mgo_CNcYqFwO5P8Gx4jIUBN2xvQZGxIf0_Z5wBpcgKqrBljmSuZaS3rkqTBX6svA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200702/67227dac/attachment-0001.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 3 12:51:58 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 19:51:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: <0f470e7a-376b-5749-56d0-3ef757e57abd@marxists.org> References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> , <0f470e7a-376b-5749-56d0-3ef757e57abd@marxists.org> Message-ID: Andy, David, Huw, et al XMCArs, Aren't logic and sign actually patterns (or arrangements) of other material things and events in time and space? I was reading an article in the NYT that used the word "synecdoche," a figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole or the whole for a part. It's an interesting word to me because it is a pattern of "this for that" when pertaining to wholes and parts and it is not uni-directional but flows in both directions. The nature of logic and of signs is that they are referential, like the act of pointing. Would the pattern embedded within a logic or a sign be likened to the definition of a word? Could it be that the evolutionary hardwired-ability for humans to perform facial recognition (i.e., babies and their caregivers) translate and develop into other forms of pattern recognition (through learning), such as the sound of a word that is learned first through hearing and then through pointing and then through speaking. I also wonder if patterns would be a more sophisticated pathway to handle the limitations of a stimulus-response model for behavior, which seems oppressively myopic and decontextualized in its linearity. On the other hand, a pattern is dimensional and aspectival as well as environmental, and likely easier to contextualize (and perhaps harder to decontextualize). Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 10:11 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] Your observations square with ever so milder versions of what I have experienced and heard re the DDR. I remember as liberating the total absence of advertising and even the annoying absence of a customer-service-provider mentality, and at the same time being covertly approach for illicit foreign exchange transactions made me feel dirty and oozed oppression. Anyway, I don't think this is a structure/agency issue. The Chinese leadership know exactly what they are doing. Your observations about the US more clearly implicate structure/agency distinctions, in my view. As to Logic and Language, as I have previously remarked in this connection, David, for a man with a hammer everything is a nail. One of the problems is for people to presume that Logic (and concepts) is some kind of non-material entity, while speech and action are somehow more material. If you see these forms of human life as somehow "immaterial" then any rational account of human life is going appear "idealist" but the "idealism" is really on the other foot. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 12:11 pm, David Kellogg wrote: This morning I have heard, from two very different human voices, that China is a totalitarian state in which the political structure inexorably determines agency. The first speaker, on an arts programme, cited his work in producing the London Olympics opening ceremony "in defiance" of the one which opened the Beijing Olympics: he set about artistically counterposing viscerality to pageantry. The second, on a science programme, spoke in awe of the ability of the municipal government of Wuhan to test the entire population in ten days--an achievement that he--rightly--valued higher than the construction of two large hospitals during the same time frame. It is interesting that both speakers denied that Chinese people might actually be exercising agency in both situations. I am trying to square this with my own experience in China. I was naive about a lot of things, but I don't think repression was one of them: I had certainly experienced repressive political structures in Sudan, Algeria, and Syria, in addition to my own country, where at the age of fourteen I had to sign an affidavit declaring that I was not a member of the Communist Party in order to get a summer gig at an A&W root beer stand! On Chinese television I heard of demonstrators being shot in the streets in Beijing, student leaders executed in Shanghai and sit-in protestors cut in half by trains; in Xinjiang and Guangzhou I witnessed public executions myself, and I certainly knew people who were imprisoned for their role in strikes, even when that role was merely acting as a mediator between workers and cops. I was fired from jobs for making statements of simple historical fact in Beijing and again in Xiamen, and I knew that I could not sue to get my job back. But there were three things which seemed to set me free, and which still sets life in China apart for me. The first was that for the first time in my life I was absolutely at liberty to say that I was a Marxist, even a Communist (although people would laugh at me and shake their heads and patiently explain that I didn't really know what I was on about). The second was that on public streets the vast majority of texts that I studied (I was still learning to read Chinese) had absolutely nothing to do with the exchange of commodities, the sale of information or branding of any kind. The third, however, was that almost everybody, including most Party members I knew, were unofficial, off-the-record, between-you-and-me dissidents of one kind or another. It struck me that the situation was really topsy-turvy. In the USA, where I was born, voting allowed a vast majority of people to regularly register as official dissenters, but in private there were hardly any people who opposed the social system as whole, that is, as a structure. (Isn't "contradiction" really a linguistic rather than a logical category? For that matter, isn't logic just a tidied up form of language, just as dialectics--hence the name--is a tidied up version of human voices?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xtfbje8IQ2-iZ_0BcA83YVoVj0W-nwnMJ56J6rSZQ4A0nIQH-qdwR8wxql-0mDFWy0R2_g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xtfbje8IQ2-iZ_0BcA83YVoVj0W-nwnMJ56J6rSZQ4A0nIQH-qdwR8wxql-0mDHeIZP62Q$ On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1) Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change, because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising thing. The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of movement. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: Andy et Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective discoordination and infer the contradictions? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not automatic. But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative activities, trust we will all die. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: Andy -- You write that " The structure is built around contradictions" Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures contain the contradictions minist in social life? I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural structures that coordinate constituent activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. mike and g'night! On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's Logic and Marx's Capital is a contradiction. The structure is built around contradictions. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital." andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? Mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!Xtfbje8IQ2-iZ_0BcA83YVoVj0W-nwnMJ56J6rSZQ4A0nIQH-qdwR8wxql-0mDF722m2KA$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: Mike, Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: S?ma et al., The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!Xtfbje8IQ2-iZ_0BcA83YVoVj0W-nwnMJ56J6rSZQ4A0nIQH-qdwR8wxql-0mDHy7h9LEQ$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!Xtfbje8IQ2-iZ_0BcA83YVoVj0W-nwnMJ56J6rSZQ4A0nIQH-qdwR8wxql-0mDE_GZSkUA$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xtfbje8IQ2-iZ_0BcA83YVoVj0W-nwnMJ56J6rSZQ4A0nIQH-qdwR8wxql-0mDEt7WtVHA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xtfbje8IQ2-iZ_0BcA83YVoVj0W-nwnMJ56J6rSZQ4A0nIQH-qdwR8wxql-0mDEt7WtVHA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xtfbje8IQ2-iZ_0BcA83YVoVj0W-nwnMJ56J6rSZQ4A0nIQH-qdwR8wxql-0mDEt7WtVHA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200703/dd3a9516/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 3 13:07:26 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 20:07:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> , <0f470e7a-376b-5749-56d0-3ef757e57abd@marxists.org>, Message-ID: Andy, David, Huw, et al XMCArs, Hi again, I forgot to add the thought that with patterns, this also addresses the tension of contradiction and disco-ordintation that structure does not. Patterns can be dramatically or gently altered, if change is inherent in the pattern. Consider music as patterns that inherently change, though perhaps not in a set pattern (which is why we are able to sing along when a favorite tune starts up, we anticipate the pattern through re-cognition of the pattern). Jazz is interesting because there is an underlying pattern, but there is also improvisation. Patterns can also be rigid and static, thereby unchanging, but because the universe as a changing entity, it will force change inevitably, either from within the pattern or from outside the pattern, whether as dissemination or annihilation, the pattern too is forced to change. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 1:51 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency Andy, David, Huw, et al XMCArs, Aren't logic and sign actually patterns (or arrangements) of other material things and events in time and space? I was reading an article in the NYT that used the word "synecdoche," a figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole or the whole for a part. It's an interesting word to me because it is a pattern of "this for that" when pertaining to wholes and parts and it is not uni-directional but flows in both directions. The nature of logic and of signs is that they are referential, like the act of pointing. Would the pattern embedded within a logic or a sign be likened to the definition of a word? Could it be that the evolutionary hardwired-ability for humans to perform facial recognition (i.e., babies and their caregivers) translate and develop into other forms of pattern recognition (through learning), such as the sound of a word that is learned first through hearing and then through pointing and then through speaking. I also wonder if patterns would be a more sophisticated pathway to handle the limitations of a stimulus-response model for behavior, which seems oppressively myopic and decontextualized in its linearity. On the other hand, a pattern is dimensional and aspectival as well as environmental, and likely easier to contextualize (and perhaps harder to decontextualize). Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 10:11 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] Your observations square with ever so milder versions of what I have experienced and heard re the DDR. I remember as liberating the total absence of advertising and even the annoying absence of a customer-service-provider mentality, and at the same time being covertly approach for illicit foreign exchange transactions made me feel dirty and oozed oppression. Anyway, I don't think this is a structure/agency issue. The Chinese leadership know exactly what they are doing. Your observations about the US more clearly implicate structure/agency distinctions, in my view. As to Logic and Language, as I have previously remarked in this connection, David, for a man with a hammer everything is a nail. One of the problems is for people to presume that Logic (and concepts) is some kind of non-material entity, while speech and action are somehow more material. If you see these forms of human life as somehow "immaterial" then any rational account of human life is going appear "idealist" but the "idealism" is really on the other foot. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 12:11 pm, David Kellogg wrote: This morning I have heard, from two very different human voices, that China is a totalitarian state in which the political structure inexorably determines agency. The first speaker, on an arts programme, cited his work in producing the London Olympics opening ceremony "in defiance" of the one which opened the Beijing Olympics: he set about artistically counterposing viscerality to pageantry. The second, on a science programme, spoke in awe of the ability of the municipal government of Wuhan to test the entire population in ten days--an achievement that he--rightly--valued higher than the construction of two large hospitals during the same time frame. It is interesting that both speakers denied that Chinese people might actually be exercising agency in both situations. I am trying to square this with my own experience in China. I was naive about a lot of things, but I don't think repression was one of them: I had certainly experienced repressive political structures in Sudan, Algeria, and Syria, in addition to my own country, where at the age of fourteen I had to sign an affidavit declaring that I was not a member of the Communist Party in order to get a summer gig at an A&W root beer stand! On Chinese television I heard of demonstrators being shot in the streets in Beijing, student leaders executed in Shanghai and sit-in protestors cut in half by trains; in Xinjiang and Guangzhou I witnessed public executions myself, and I certainly knew people who were imprisoned for their role in strikes, even when that role was merely acting as a mediator between workers and cops. I was fired from jobs for making statements of simple historical fact in Beijing and again in Xiamen, and I knew that I could not sue to get my job back. But there were three things which seemed to set me free, and which still sets life in China apart for me. The first was that for the first time in my life I was absolutely at liberty to say that I was a Marxist, even a Communist (although people would laugh at me and shake their heads and patiently explain that I didn't really know what I was on about). The second was that on public streets the vast majority of texts that I studied (I was still learning to read Chinese) had absolutely nothing to do with the exchange of commodities, the sale of information or branding of any kind. The third, however, was that almost everybody, including most Party members I knew, were unofficial, off-the-record, between-you-and-me dissidents of one kind or another. It struck me that the situation was really topsy-turvy. In the USA, where I was born, voting allowed a vast majority of people to regularly register as official dissenters, but in private there were hardly any people who opposed the social system as whole, that is, as a structure. (Isn't "contradiction" really a linguistic rather than a logical category? For that matter, isn't logic just a tidied up form of language, just as dialectics--hence the name--is a tidied up version of human voices?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UTFh92qRouMR0RricNZPYcjZ0eAGB4OEq_HucnlT2RQ8g4C_oOBBkt4fIJ0GTNLy1KAvFw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UTFh92qRouMR0RricNZPYcjZ0eAGB4OEq_HucnlT2RQ8g4C_oOBBkt4fIJ0GTNLyH5UXyA$ On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1) Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change, because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising thing. The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of movement. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: Andy et Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective discoordination and infer the contradictions? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not automatic. But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative activities, trust we will all die. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: Andy -- You write that " The structure is built around contradictions" Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures contain the contradictions minist in social life? I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural structures that coordinate constituent activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. mike and g'night! On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's Logic and Marx's Capital is a contradiction. The structure is built around contradictions. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital." andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? Mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!UTFh92qRouMR0RricNZPYcjZ0eAGB4OEq_HucnlT2RQ8g4C_oOBBkt4fIJ0GTNJHMTI1EA$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: Mike, Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: S?ma et al., The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!UTFh92qRouMR0RricNZPYcjZ0eAGB4OEq_HucnlT2RQ8g4C_oOBBkt4fIJ0GTNJ-g6HS0Q$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!UTFh92qRouMR0RricNZPYcjZ0eAGB4OEq_HucnlT2RQ8g4C_oOBBkt4fIJ0GTNJ2K8W4DA$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UTFh92qRouMR0RricNZPYcjZ0eAGB4OEq_HucnlT2RQ8g4C_oOBBkt4fIJ0GTNLQSbkkBQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UTFh92qRouMR0RricNZPYcjZ0eAGB4OEq_HucnlT2RQ8g4C_oOBBkt4fIJ0GTNLQSbkkBQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UTFh92qRouMR0RricNZPYcjZ0eAGB4OEq_HucnlT2RQ8g4C_oOBBkt4fIJ0GTNLQSbkkBQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200703/f11f65f3/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Jul 3 14:07:01 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 22:07:01 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> <0f470e7a-376b-5749-56d0-3ef757e57abd@marxists.org> Message-ID: What you are referring to as synechdoche (metonymy) as a contextual patterning that enriches stimulus-response dynamics to form a triadic relation (stimulus-context-response), is what I call symbol or orientation. Signs inform or account for orientation, which may not be conscious. For me the scope of orientation is principally contingent upon cognitive development. This is all largely in agreement with Vygotsky. However Vygotsky, especially in his more frequently known writings, did not explicitly write about the context, but rather focused upon mediating signs making up the structure of activity. In this regard, it is also worth comparing with Leontyev's activity. In my own writings this is described in my studies of active orientation, which in addition to the theoretical work studies signs-in-use in an experimental and developmental context and infers orientation. Since then I have come across more material but everything I have written there still remains consistent with my views and understandings. Huw On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 20:53, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Andy, David, Huw, et al XMCArs, > > Aren't logic and sign actually patterns (or arrangements) of other > material things and events in time and space? > > I was reading an article in the NYT that used the word "synecdoche," a > figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole or the whole for a > part. It's an interesting word to me because it is a pattern of "this for > that" when pertaining to wholes and parts and it is not uni-directional but > flows in both directions. > > The nature of logic and of signs is that they are referential, like the > act of pointing. > > Would the pattern embedded within a logic or a sign be likened to the > definition of a word? > > Could it be that the evolutionary hardwired-ability for humans to perform > facial recognition (i.e., babies and their caregivers) translate and > develop into other forms of pattern recognition (through learning), such as > the sound of a word that is learned first through hearing and then through > pointing and then through speaking. > > I also wonder if patterns would be a more sophisticated pathway to handle > the limitations of a stimulus-response model for behavior, which seems > oppressively myopic and decontextualized in its linearity. On the other > hand, a pattern is dimensional and aspectival as well as environmental, and > likely easier to contextualize (and perhaps harder to decontextualize). > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 1, 2020 10:11 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Your observations square with ever so milder versions of what I have > experienced and heard re the DDR. I remember as liberating the total > absence of advertising and even the annoying absence of a > customer-service-provider mentality, and at the same time being covertly > approach for illicit foreign exchange transactions made me feel dirty and > oozed oppression. Anyway, I don't think this is a structure/agency issue. > The Chinese leadership know exactly what they are doing. Your observations > about the US more clearly implicate structure/agency distinctions, in my > view. > > As to Logic and Language, as I have previously remarked in this > connection, David, for a man with a hammer everything is a nail. One of the > problems is for people to presume that Logic (and concepts) is some kind of > non-material entity, while speech and action are somehow more material. If > you see these forms of human life as somehow "immaterial" then any rational > account of human life is going appear "idealist" but the "idealism" is > really on the other foot. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 2/07/2020 12:11 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > This morning I have heard, from two very different human voices, that > China is a totalitarian state in which the political structure inexorably > determines agency. The first speaker, on an arts programme, cited his work > in producing the London Olympics opening ceremony "in defiance" of the one > which opened the Beijing Olympics: he set about artistically counterposing > viscerality to pageantry. The second, on a science programme, spoke in awe > of the ability of the municipal government of Wuhan to test the entire > population in ten days--an achievement that he--rightly--valued higher than > the construction of two large hospitals during the same time frame. It is > interesting that both speakers denied that Chinese people might actually be > exercising agency in both situations. > > I am trying to square this with my own experience in China. I was naive > about a lot of things, but I don't think repression was one of them: I had > certainly experienced repressive political structures in Sudan, Algeria, > and Syria, in addition to my own country, where at the age of fourteen I > had to sign an affidavit declaring that I was not a member of the Communist > Party in order to get a summer gig at an A&W root beer stand! On Chinese > television I heard of demonstrators being shot in the streets in > Beijing, student leaders executed in Shanghai and sit-in protestors cut in > half by trains; in Xinjiang and Guangzhou I witnessed public executions > myself, and I certainly knew people who were imprisoned for their role in > strikes, even when that role was merely acting as a mediator between > workers and cops. I was fired from jobs for making statements of simple > historical fact in Beijing and again in Xiamen, and I knew that I could not > sue to get my job back. But there were three things which seemed to set me > free, and which still sets life in China apart for me. > > The first was that for the first time in my life I was absolutely at > liberty to say that I was a Marxist, even a Communist (although people > would laugh at me and shake their heads and patiently explain that I didn't > really know what I was on about). The second was that on public streets the > vast majority of texts that I studied (I was still learning to read > Chinese) had absolutely nothing to do with the exchange of commodities, the > sale of information or branding of any kind. The third, however, was that > almost everybody, including most Party members I knew, were unofficial, > off-the-record, between-you-and-me dissidents of one kind or another. It > struck me that the situation was really topsy-turvy. In the USA, where I > was born, voting allowed a vast majority of people to regularly register > as official dissenters, but in private there were hardly any people who > opposed the social system as whole, that is, as a structure. > > (Isn't "contradiction" really a linguistic rather than a logical category? > For that matter, isn't logic just a tidied up form of language, just > as dialectics--hence the name--is a tidied up version of human voices?) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VVwhKIYK9WFUYMJ87XAvH2m4-RYqreqgCxWgIyE4pYUtQE9YFYRhv_2k8VP6nM6zR5oCKw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VVwhKIYK9WFUYMJ87XAvH2m4-RYqreqgCxWgIyE4pYUtQE9YFYRhv_2k8VP6nM4ln0uoPg$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > > I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with > "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than > logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1) > Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that > is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' > reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and > aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change, > because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look > to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and > insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could > possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a > social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising > thing. > > The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of > movement. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: > > Andy et > > Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for > contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective > discoordination and infer the contradictions? > mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", > i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such > contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and > instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. > > Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite > harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the > contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not > automatic. > > But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without > "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the > sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative > activities, trust we will all die. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: > > Andy -- You write that " The structure is *built around* > *contradictions" * > Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures *contain* the *contradictions > *minist in social life? > I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural > structures that coordinate constituent > activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. > mike > and g'night! > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, > which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look > like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's *Logic *and > Marx's *Capital *is a contradiction. The structure is built around > *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the > contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. > > Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with > its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and > Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's > *Capital*." > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: > > David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the > distinctions you are making? > Mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning > of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That > there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and > likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and > "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree > that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the > development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." > > - > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VVwhKIYK9WFUYMJ87XAvH2m4-RYqreqgCxWgIyE4pYUtQE9YFYRhv_2k8VP6nM6WiqzZWQ$ > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: > > Mike, > > Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is > that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been > influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true > poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with > the implications of such a turn. > > David > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one > way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? > > Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on > transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky > > and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > > S?ma et al., > > The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents > of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist > thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a > modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with > an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its > significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a > structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project > as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about > the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist > mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can > encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood > is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is > purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and > assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political > Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the > political Left that orients itself in structuralism. > > David > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > > > Hi Annalisa and colleagues > > > > Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable > manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for > conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum > such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response > below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. > > > > Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this > situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then > ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? > the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are > victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. > Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the > context under which? survivors? continue to survive. > > > > Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, > and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the > conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and > controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. > > > > There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of > different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors > have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with > new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving > them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, > including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more > interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by > intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the > oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the > ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly > game Tameka Jones Young > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!VVwhKIYK9WFUYMJ87XAvH2m4-RYqreqgCxWgIyE4pYUtQE9YFYRhv_2k8VP6nM6q8CIPBg$ > > (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why > ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who > are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? > ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome > protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for > this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though > her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her > monopoly analogy worth my reflection. > > > > I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural > Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, > I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these > theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development > it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe > one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how > Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in > communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance > Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. > > > > It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can > continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. > What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. > I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious > ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times > pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. > > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a > "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" > around the shoulders, etc. > > > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as > grievous as Holocaust deniers. > > > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended > to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught > and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as > nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the > veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which > in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not > earned through merit. > > > > When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for > someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is > done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as > if they have no right to do so. > > > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > > > > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word > "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. > > > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate > victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something > unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and > even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful > effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). > > > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of > resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we > consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show > (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult > circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their > wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk > about social Darwinism! > > > > I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about > the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, > neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. > > > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: > > 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or > agency: a victim of an automobile accident. > 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions > or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a > victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an > optical illusion. > 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war > victims. > 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. > > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, > gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, > pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, > underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured > party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. > > > > I did the same for the term survivor: > > 1. a person or thing that survives. > 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or > others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. > 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of > opposition, hardship, or setbacks. > > Synoymns: > > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, > remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most > recent accepted meaning? > > > > It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and > survivors to be considered mere leftovers. > > > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries > to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what > criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own > unearned benefit and advancement? > > > > Is that fitness or crime? > > > > > > > > t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. > > > > > > What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered > against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word > without these undertowing currents of meaning? > > > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or > "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I > am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My > ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > > > And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate > individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in > this fashion. > > > > Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an > oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am > a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors > enslaved yours." > > > > The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and > descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to > say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This > happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." > > > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), > who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, > I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those > who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase > like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of > shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just > they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that > Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering > perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. > > > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in > past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means > justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la > vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from > "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? > > > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice > to meet the crime? > > > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, > but now it seems it is too slowly. > > > > This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about > power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems > unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? > > > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and > their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or > the promotion of eugenics. > > > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of > the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George > W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's > 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the > kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) > oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection > to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the > injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed > me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that > now. I see the errors of my ways." > > > > It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk > percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the > past, let's move on." > > > > There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, > and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. > > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? > > > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. > Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. > > > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I > referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between > the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in > relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James > Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the > video) is this: > > > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with > its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, > Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement > which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and > ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study > ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how > unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are > situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the > system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also > tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces > mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which > we have to be concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am > not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, > I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of > ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an > idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we > aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives > associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with > ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein > bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the > name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological > connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in > specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental > functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected > ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like > a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > > ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan > Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, > unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying > adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific > tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources > that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I > referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? > knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for > the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook > for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we > take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for > Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical > Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is > generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge > accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to > advance the survival of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > Simangele > > > > > > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or > "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive > movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a > sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at > stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. > There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called > philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss > what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video > critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance > studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this > conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so > well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions > Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social > justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into > self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with > Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, > as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether > Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory > scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an > example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is > something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my > partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with > the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that > at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the > ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with > little consideration of the historical oppression that created the > ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what > appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more > about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black > skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is > ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular > narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking > over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are > Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument > on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!VVwhKIYK9WFUYMJ87XAvH2m4-RYqreqgCxWgIyE4pYUtQE9YFYRhv_2k8VP6nM7AfIbmAQ$ > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering > the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies > as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the > ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to > the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms > of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VVwhKIYK9WFUYMJ87XAvH2m4-RYqreqgCxWgIyE4pYUtQE9YFYRhv_2k8VP6nM62ShHPfQ$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VVwhKIYK9WFUYMJ87XAvH2m4-RYqreqgCxWgIyE4pYUtQE9YFYRhv_2k8VP6nM62ShHPfQ$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VVwhKIYK9WFUYMJ87XAvH2m4-RYqreqgCxWgIyE4pYUtQE9YFYRhv_2k8VP6nM62ShHPfQ$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200703/20a380db/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jul 4 23:50:23 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 06:50:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> <0f470e7a-376b-5749-56d0-3ef757e57abd@marxists.org> , Message-ID: Huw, et al I am not referring to synecdoche as a contextual pattern that alters stimulus response into stimulus-context-response. You are saying that, not me. I was saying that synecdoche is an example of a pattern(period). And the "logic" of this particular pattern is that it is not linear but bi-directional in its definition, and what determines the logic is the context. Perhaps an appropriate analogy might be epigenetics. We know that the DNA structure for a particular person may activate (for certain parts of the DNA) based upon certain other particular activators in the environment, but we have no way (yet) to determine the actual mechanisms because of the contextual role of the interaction, something far more complex to map, to pattern. We might look at the pandemic the same way. There is nothing linear about how the virus has spread. It's environmental, it's social, and it's bio-dynamic. It's all together a unified development. One cannot divide it into parts. Just as one cannot divide a symphony into playing instruments, it all comes to us as a unified experience, yet different for each individual, why? because of context, not cognitive development, as you put it. If not for the social delays the virus would not have taken hold to the degree that it has. That isn't stimulus-response. It is a pattern. And the pattern is predictable in the sense that we can model the pattern and determine its growth can become exponential in certain contexts. What is stimulous-response about any of this? Nothing is stimulus response. It's a pattern. We might say it is a pattern inclusive of social denial as a variable in the environment constitutes by many other dynamics. But stimulus-response is simply a dualistic and myopic tool that will not tell us anything. The virus isn't isolated to one city like Godzilla in downtown Tokyo. We must include the environment. That is why I maintain a pattern is a better way to model. One can't limit the spread of the virus to what is conscious and what is cognitive development and what are signs, because it has to do not only with the social dynamic, it has to do with airplanes, with cultures who are more affectionate than others, with economies, soccer games in large stadiums, with social notions over power and political tensions. It has to do with geographies and the densities of people, the placement of hospitals and how many ventilators are available. These are all patterns that coalesce in particular ways, that once we study them we might hope to understand them with more predictability. We hope that these patterns can be tipped enough to create different more responsive patterns that we hope will be more beneficial to us in terms of social health. Who can say? But our worldview must change. If you decide to limit everything about human behavior to cognition as something happening in the head, if that is what you are saying, I'm not sure, you are limiting swaths of information outside the head, and I'm not talking about signs or structures. What is easy to do with Vygotsky is to melt back into a neo-Pavlovian stance by reducing signs into stimulous that produces particular activity. A sign happens in the world, it's not divorced from it. Signs are not the material of behavior, of activity. They are perceptions shaped by cultural endeavors and circumstances in time and space in a unified way. And when I say time and space, I mean environment, or better context. Edwin Hutchins's Cognition in the Wild might be a great book to illustrate what I am attempting to convey, as it concerns marine navigation as a cultural practice. The stars are in the sky, and they move as the earth turns. Navigation is full of patterns (i.e., constellations, charts, maps, tides, time schedules, etc), and these coalesce into an activity of navigation, but how that manifests has to do with cultures, with what one is navigating (by sea, by air, by land?), which is nothing by contextual. It's not structural, it's not behavioral. What is the behavior of the stars? What is the structure of the ocean? The "material" is the world, but also our bodies and minds. Any signs we partake are indicative or our particular cultural ontology, the way we divide up the world to orient to it accordingly. But we could not create that ontology without the material of the world and our placement in it. I feel that a discussion of cognition defined of humans as bubbles of consciousness, some at a higher level than others, that "generate signals" from one bubble to another, like radio towers through a vacuum of empty space, is simply not accurate. It's still dualistic and isolates the human as something "different" from everything else that is here on this planet and universe. It's a strange geocentrism but this time about the human-mind-as-bubble, as the center of the universe, not the earth, this time around. There are different forms of consciousness everywhere around us. In plant life, in animals, to say the least. When we make ourselves as-if-superior by dividing ourselves from everything else, we are the ones who lose the meaning of what it is to manifest out OF something contextual. This separateness is an illusion, but it also allows a kind of mind that becomes incapable of empathy, of seeing the whole picture, of accepting change, and I'd say various other pathologies. Maybe I have not understood you, which is entirely possible. But that is how I see the matter at this juncture. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 3:07 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] What you are referring to as synechdoche (metonymy) as a contextual patterning that enriches stimulus-response dynamics to form a triadic relation (stimulus-context-response), is what I call symbol or orientation. Signs inform or account for orientation, which may not be conscious. For me the scope of orientation is principally contingent upon cognitive development. This is all largely in agreement with Vygotsky. However Vygotsky, especially in his more frequently known writings, did not explicitly write about the context, but rather focused upon mediating signs making up the structure of activity. In this regard, it is also worth comparing with Leontyev's activity. In my own writings this is described in my studies of active orientation, which in addition to the theoretical work studies signs-in-use in an experimental and developmental context and infers orientation. Since then I have come across more material but everything I have written there still remains consistent with my views and understandings. Huw On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 20:53, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Andy, David, Huw, et al XMCArs, Aren't logic and sign actually patterns (or arrangements) of other material things and events in time and space? I was reading an article in the NYT that used the word "synecdoche," a figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole or the whole for a part. It's an interesting word to me because it is a pattern of "this for that" when pertaining to wholes and parts and it is not uni-directional but flows in both directions. The nature of logic and of signs is that they are referential, like the act of pointing. Would the pattern embedded within a logic or a sign be likened to the definition of a word? Could it be that the evolutionary hardwired-ability for humans to perform facial recognition (i.e., babies and their caregivers) translate and develop into other forms of pattern recognition (through learning), such as the sound of a word that is learned first through hearing and then through pointing and then through speaking. I also wonder if patterns would be a more sophisticated pathway to handle the limitations of a stimulus-response model for behavior, which seems oppressively myopic and decontextualized in its linearity. On the other hand, a pattern is dimensional and aspectival as well as environmental, and likely easier to contextualize (and perhaps harder to decontextualize). Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 10:11 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] Your observations square with ever so milder versions of what I have experienced and heard re the DDR. I remember as liberating the total absence of advertising and even the annoying absence of a customer-service-provider mentality, and at the same time being covertly approach for illicit foreign exchange transactions made me feel dirty and oozed oppression. Anyway, I don't think this is a structure/agency issue. The Chinese leadership know exactly what they are doing. Your observations about the US more clearly implicate structure/agency distinctions, in my view. As to Logic and Language, as I have previously remarked in this connection, David, for a man with a hammer everything is a nail. One of the problems is for people to presume that Logic (and concepts) is some kind of non-material entity, while speech and action are somehow more material. If you see these forms of human life as somehow "immaterial" then any rational account of human life is going appear "idealist" but the "idealism" is really on the other foot. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 12:11 pm, David Kellogg wrote: This morning I have heard, from two very different human voices, that China is a totalitarian state in which the political structure inexorably determines agency. The first speaker, on an arts programme, cited his work in producing the London Olympics opening ceremony "in defiance" of the one which opened the Beijing Olympics: he set about artistically counterposing viscerality to pageantry. The second, on a science programme, spoke in awe of the ability of the municipal government of Wuhan to test the entire population in ten days--an achievement that he--rightly--valued higher than the construction of two large hospitals during the same time frame. It is interesting that both speakers denied that Chinese people might actually be exercising agency in both situations. I am trying to square this with my own experience in China. I was naive about a lot of things, but I don't think repression was one of them: I had certainly experienced repressive political structures in Sudan, Algeria, and Syria, in addition to my own country, where at the age of fourteen I had to sign an affidavit declaring that I was not a member of the Communist Party in order to get a summer gig at an A&W root beer stand! On Chinese television I heard of demonstrators being shot in the streets in Beijing, student leaders executed in Shanghai and sit-in protestors cut in half by trains; in Xinjiang and Guangzhou I witnessed public executions myself, and I certainly knew people who were imprisoned for their role in strikes, even when that role was merely acting as a mediator between workers and cops. I was fired from jobs for making statements of simple historical fact in Beijing and again in Xiamen, and I knew that I could not sue to get my job back. But there were three things which seemed to set me free, and which still sets life in China apart for me. The first was that for the first time in my life I was absolutely at liberty to say that I was a Marxist, even a Communist (although people would laugh at me and shake their heads and patiently explain that I didn't really know what I was on about). The second was that on public streets the vast majority of texts that I studied (I was still learning to read Chinese) had absolutely nothing to do with the exchange of commodities, the sale of information or branding of any kind. The third, however, was that almost everybody, including most Party members I knew, were unofficial, off-the-record, between-you-and-me dissidents of one kind or another. It struck me that the situation was really topsy-turvy. In the USA, where I was born, voting allowed a vast majority of people to regularly register as official dissenters, but in private there were hardly any people who opposed the social system as whole, that is, as a structure. (Isn't "contradiction" really a linguistic rather than a logical category? For that matter, isn't logic just a tidied up form of language, just as dialectics--hence the name--is a tidied up version of human voices?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VGlhsgSOLD59tFcrtpc_cOcmdKpDVwTNZg3dGQcedodr5_hq1gwgIICeG3cGB7ATANEXNg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VGlhsgSOLD59tFcrtpc_cOcmdKpDVwTNZg3dGQcedodr5_hq1gwgIICeG3cGB7AoGkBd8g$ On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1) Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change, because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising thing. The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of movement. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: Andy et Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective discoordination and infer the contradictions? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not automatic. But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative activities, trust we will all die. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: Andy -- You write that " The structure is built around contradictions" Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures contain the contradictions minist in social life? I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural structures that coordinate constituent activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. mike and g'night! On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's Logic and Marx's Capital is a contradiction. The structure is built around contradictions. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital." andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? Mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VGlhsgSOLD59tFcrtpc_cOcmdKpDVwTNZg3dGQcedodr5_hq1gwgIICeG3cGB7CBRm4suw$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: Mike, Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: S?ma et al., The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!VGlhsgSOLD59tFcrtpc_cOcmdKpDVwTNZg3dGQcedodr5_hq1gwgIICeG3cGB7C33K_clg$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!VGlhsgSOLD59tFcrtpc_cOcmdKpDVwTNZg3dGQcedodr5_hq1gwgIICeG3cGB7ARjmVjGg$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VGlhsgSOLD59tFcrtpc_cOcmdKpDVwTNZg3dGQcedodr5_hq1gwgIICeG3cGB7CnEit0YQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VGlhsgSOLD59tFcrtpc_cOcmdKpDVwTNZg3dGQcedodr5_hq1gwgIICeG3cGB7CnEit0YQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VGlhsgSOLD59tFcrtpc_cOcmdKpDVwTNZg3dGQcedodr5_hq1gwgIICeG3cGB7CnEit0YQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200705/e46c5107/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Jul 5 03:18:28 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 11:18:28 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> <0f470e7a-376b-5749-56d0-3ef757e57abd@marxists.org> Message-ID: Annalisa, As I am not your teacher, it may be wisest to simply let this go. I think an instructive and questioning response would require an invitation, which is often implicit in the thoughtful exchanges I have had on this forum. Best, Huw On Sun, 5 Jul 2020 at 07:52, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Huw, et al > > I am not referring to synecdoche as a contextual pattern that alters > stimulus response into stimulus-context-response. You are saying that, not > me. > > I was saying that synecdoche is an example of a pattern(period). And the > "logic" of this particular pattern is that it is not linear but > bi-directional in its definition, and what determines the logic is the > context. > > Perhaps an appropriate analogy might be epigenetics. We know that the DNA > structure for a particular person may activate (for certain parts of the > DNA) based upon certain other particular activators in the environment, but > we have no way (yet) to determine the actual mechanisms because of the > contextual role of the interaction, something far more complex to map, to > pattern. > > We might look at the pandemic the same way. There is nothing linear about > how the virus has spread. It's environmental, it's social, and it's > bio-dynamic. It's all together a unified development. One cannot divide it > into parts. Just as one cannot divide a symphony into playing instruments, > it all comes to us as a unified experience, yet different for each > individual, why? because of context, not cognitive development, as you put > it. > > If not for the social delays the virus would not have taken hold to the > degree that it has. That isn't stimulus-response. It is a pattern. And the > pattern is predictable in the sense that we can model the pattern and > determine its growth can become exponential in certain contexts. > > What is stimulous-response about any of this? Nothing is stimulus > response. It's a pattern. > > We might say it is a pattern inclusive of social denial as a variable in > the environment constitutes by many other dynamics. But stimulus-response > is simply a dualistic and myopic tool that will not tell us anything. The > virus isn't isolated to one city like Godzilla in downtown Tokyo. > > We must include the environment. That is why I maintain a pattern is a > better way to model. > > One can't limit the spread of the virus to what is conscious and what is > cognitive development and what are signs, because it has to do not only > with the social dynamic, it has to do with airplanes, with cultures who are > more affectionate than others, with economies, soccer games in large > stadiums, with social notions over power and political tensions. It has to > do with geographies and the densities of people, the placement of hospitals > and how many ventilators are available. > > These are all patterns that coalesce in particular ways, that once we > study them we might hope to understand them with more predictability. We > hope that these patterns can be tipped enough to create different more > responsive patterns that we hope will be more beneficial to us in terms of > social health. Who can say? > > But our worldview must change. > > If you decide to limit everything about human behavior to cognition as > something happening in the head, if that is what you are saying, I'm not > sure, you are limiting swaths of information outside the head, and I'm not > talking about signs or structures. > > What is easy to do with Vygotsky is to melt back into a neo-Pavlovian > stance by reducing signs into stimulous that produces particular activity. > A sign happens in the world, it's not divorced from it. Signs are not the > material of behavior, of activity. They are perceptions shaped by cultural > endeavors and circumstances in time and space in a unified way. And when I > say time and space, I mean environment, or better context. > > Edwin Hutchins's Cognition in the Wild might be a great book to illustrate > what I am attempting to convey, as it concerns marine navigation as a > cultural practice. The stars are in the sky, and they move as the earth > turns. Navigation is full of patterns (i.e., constellations, charts, maps, > tides, time schedules, etc), and these coalesce into an activity of > navigation, but how that manifests has to do with cultures, with what one > is navigating (by sea, by air, by land?), which is nothing by contextual. > It's not structural, it's not behavioral. What is the behavior of the > stars? What is the structure of the ocean? > > The "material" is the world, but also our bodies and minds. Any signs we > partake are indicative or our particular cultural ontology, the way we > divide up the world to orient to it accordingly. But we could not create > that ontology without the material of the world and our placement in it. > > I feel that a discussion of cognition defined of humans as bubbles of > consciousness, some at a higher level than others, that "generate signals" > from one bubble to another, like radio towers through a vacuum of empty > space, is simply not accurate. It's still dualistic and isolates the human > as something "different" from everything else that is here on this planet > and universe. It's a strange geocentrism but this time about the > human-mind-as-bubble, as the center of the universe, not the earth, this > time around. > > There are different forms of consciousness everywhere around us. In plant > life, in animals, to say the least. When we make ourselves as-if-superior > by dividing ourselves from everything else, we are the ones who lose the > meaning of what it is to manifest out OF something contextual. This > separateness is an illusion, but it also allows a kind of mind that becomes > incapable of empathy, of seeing the whole picture, of accepting change, and > I'd say various other pathologies. > > Maybe I have not understood you, which is entirely possible. But that is > how I see the matter at this juncture. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > *Sent:* Friday, July 3, 2020 3:07 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > What you are referring to as synechdoche (metonymy) as a contextual > patterning that enriches stimulus-response dynamics to form a triadic > relation (stimulus-context-response), is what I call symbol or orientation. > Signs inform or account for orientation, which may not be conscious. For me > the scope of orientation is principally contingent upon cognitive > development. This is all largely in agreement with Vygotsky. However > Vygotsky, especially in his more frequently known writings, did not > explicitly write about the context, but rather focused upon mediating signs > making up the structure of activity. In this regard, it is also worth > comparing with Leontyev's activity. In my own writings this is described in > my studies of active orientation, which in addition to the theoretical work > studies signs-in-use in an experimental and developmental context and > infers orientation. > > Since then I have come across more material but everything I have written > there still remains consistent with my views and understandings. > > Huw > > On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 20:53, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Andy, David, Huw, et al XMCArs, > > Aren't logic and sign actually patterns (or arrangements) of other > material things and events in time and space? > > I was reading an article in the NYT that used the word "synecdoche," a > figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole or the whole for a > part. It's an interesting word to me because it is a pattern of "this for > that" when pertaining to wholes and parts and it is not uni-directional but > flows in both directions. > > The nature of logic and of signs is that they are referential, like the > act of pointing. > > Would the pattern embedded within a logic or a sign be likened to the > definition of a word? > > Could it be that the evolutionary hardwired-ability for humans to perform > facial recognition (i.e., babies and their caregivers) translate and > develop into other forms of pattern recognition (through learning), such as > the sound of a word that is learned first through hearing and then through > pointing and then through speaking. > > I also wonder if patterns would be a more sophisticated pathway to handle > the limitations of a stimulus-response model for behavior, which seems > oppressively myopic and decontextualized in its linearity. On the other > hand, a pattern is dimensional and aspectival as well as environmental, and > likely easier to contextualize (and perhaps harder to decontextualize). > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 1, 2020 10:11 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Your observations square with ever so milder versions of what I have > experienced and heard re the DDR. I remember as liberating the total > absence of advertising and even the annoying absence of a > customer-service-provider mentality, and at the same time being covertly > approach for illicit foreign exchange transactions made me feel dirty and > oozed oppression. Anyway, I don't think this is a structure/agency issue. > The Chinese leadership know exactly what they are doing. Your observations > about the US more clearly implicate structure/agency distinctions, in my > view. > > As to Logic and Language, as I have previously remarked in this > connection, David, for a man with a hammer everything is a nail. One of the > problems is for people to presume that Logic (and concepts) is some kind of > non-material entity, while speech and action are somehow more material. If > you see these forms of human life as somehow "immaterial" then any rational > account of human life is going appear "idealist" but the "idealism" is > really on the other foot. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 2/07/2020 12:11 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > This morning I have heard, from two very different human voices, that > China is a totalitarian state in which the political structure inexorably > determines agency. The first speaker, on an arts programme, cited his work > in producing the London Olympics opening ceremony "in defiance" of the one > which opened the Beijing Olympics: he set about artistically counterposing > viscerality to pageantry. The second, on a science programme, spoke in awe > of the ability of the municipal government of Wuhan to test the entire > population in ten days--an achievement that he--rightly--valued higher than > the construction of two large hospitals during the same time frame. It is > interesting that both speakers denied that Chinese people might actually be > exercising agency in both situations. > > I am trying to square this with my own experience in China. I was naive > about a lot of things, but I don't think repression was one of them: I had > certainly experienced repressive political structures in Sudan, Algeria, > and Syria, in addition to my own country, where at the age of fourteen I > had to sign an affidavit declaring that I was not a member of the Communist > Party in order to get a summer gig at an A&W root beer stand! On Chinese > television I heard of demonstrators being shot in the streets in > Beijing, student leaders executed in Shanghai and sit-in protestors cut in > half by trains; in Xinjiang and Guangzhou I witnessed public executions > myself, and I certainly knew people who were imprisoned for their role in > strikes, even when that role was merely acting as a mediator between > workers and cops. I was fired from jobs for making statements of simple > historical fact in Beijing and again in Xiamen, and I knew that I could not > sue to get my job back. But there were three things which seemed to set me > free, and which still sets life in China apart for me. > > The first was that for the first time in my life I was absolutely at > liberty to say that I was a Marxist, even a Communist (although people > would laugh at me and shake their heads and patiently explain that I didn't > really know what I was on about). The second was that on public streets the > vast majority of texts that I studied (I was still learning to read > Chinese) had absolutely nothing to do with the exchange of commodities, the > sale of information or branding of any kind. The third, however, was that > almost everybody, including most Party members I knew, were unofficial, > off-the-record, between-you-and-me dissidents of one kind or another. It > struck me that the situation was really topsy-turvy. In the USA, where I > was born, voting allowed a vast majority of people to regularly register > as official dissenters, but in private there were hardly any people who > opposed the social system as whole, that is, as a structure. > > (Isn't "contradiction" really a linguistic rather than a logical category? > For that matter, isn't logic just a tidied up form of language, just > as dialectics--hence the name--is a tidied up version of human voices?) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X8UcqNF4fpY0GR3Hatw7nXzHDrygqL_xYwaFOYHs5A-SztxKh5QW4Q0NuGt3utdIlQMPLQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X8UcqNF4fpY0GR3Hatw7nXzHDrygqL_xYwaFOYHs5A-SztxKh5QW4Q0NuGt3utfYpky0sg$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > > I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with > "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than > logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1) > Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that > is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' > reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and > aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change, > because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look > to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and > insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could > possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a > social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising > thing. > > The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of > movement. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: > > Andy et > > Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for > contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective > discoordination and infer the contradictions? > mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", > i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such > contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and > instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. > > Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite > harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the > contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not > automatic. > > But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without > "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the > sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative > activities, trust we will all die. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: > > Andy -- You write that " The structure is *built around* > *contradictions" * > Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures *contain* the *contradictions > *minist in social life? > I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural > structures that coordinate constituent > activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. > mike > and g'night! > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, > which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look > like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's *Logic *and > Marx's *Capital *is a contradiction. The structure is built around > *contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the > contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. > > Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with > its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and > Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's > *Capital*." > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: > > David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the > distinctions you are making? > Mike > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning > of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That > there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and > likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and > "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree > that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the > development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." > > - > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!X8UcqNF4fpY0GR3Hatw7nXzHDrygqL_xYwaFOYHs5A-SztxKh5QW4Q0NuGt3utebGl13Cg$ > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: > > Mike, > > Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is > that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been > influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true > poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with > the implications of such a turn. > > David > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one > way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? > > Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on > transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky > > and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > > S?ma et al., > > The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents > of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist > thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a > modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with > an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its > significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a > structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project > as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about > the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist > mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can > encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood > is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is > purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and > assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political > Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the > political Left that orients itself in structuralism. > > David > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > > > Hi Annalisa and colleagues > > > > Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable > manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for > conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum > such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response > below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. > > > > Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this > situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then > ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? > the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are > victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. > Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the > context under which? survivors? continue to survive. > > > > Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, > and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the > conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and > controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. > > > > There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of > different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors > have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with > new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving > them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, > including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more > interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by > intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the > oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the > ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly > game Tameka Jones Young > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!X8UcqNF4fpY0GR3Hatw7nXzHDrygqL_xYwaFOYHs5A-SztxKh5QW4Q0NuGt3utd_LPEfEg$ > > (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why > ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who > are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? > ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome > protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for > this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though > her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her > monopoly analogy worth my reflection. > > > > I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural > Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, > I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these > theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development > it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe > one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how > Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in > communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance > Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. > > > > It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can > continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. > What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. > I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious > ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times > pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. > > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hello S'ma and venerable others, > > > > I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a > "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" > around the shoulders, etc. > > > > It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as > grievous as Holocaust deniers. > > > > Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended > to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught > and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as > nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the > veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which > in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not > earned through merit. > > > > When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for > someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is > done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as > if they have no right to do so. > > > > So who has the right to use this word "victim"? > > > > > > I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word > "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. > > > > Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate > victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something > unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and > even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful > effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). > > > > Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? > > > > Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of > resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we > consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show > (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult > circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their > wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk > about social Darwinism! > > > > I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about > the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, > neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. > > > > Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: > > 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or > agency: a victim of an automobile accident. > 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions > or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a > victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an > optical illusion. > 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war > victims. > 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. > > When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: > > casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, > gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, > pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, > underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured > party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. > > > > I did the same for the term survivor: > > 1. a person or thing that survives. > 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or > others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. > 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of > opposition, hardship, or setbacks. > > Synoymns: > > balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, > remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts > > The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most > recent accepted meaning? > > > > It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and > survivors to be considered mere leftovers. > > > > Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries > to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what > criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own > unearned benefit and advancement? > > > > Is that fitness or crime? > > > > > > > > t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. > > > > > > What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered > against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word > without these undertowing currents of meaning? > > > > We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or > "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I > am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My > ancestors were enslaved by yours." > > > > And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate > individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in > this fashion. > > > > Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an > oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am > a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors > enslaved yours." > > > > The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and > descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to > say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This > happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." > > > > While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), > who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, > I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those > who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase > like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of > shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just > they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that > Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering > perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. > > > > Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in > past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means > justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la > vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from > "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? > > > > Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice > to meet the crime? > > > > In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, > but now it seems it is too slowly. > > > > This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about > power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems > unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? > > > > Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and > their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or > the promotion of eugenics. > > > > I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of > the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George > W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's > 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the > kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. > > > > Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) > oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection > to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the > injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed > me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that > now. I see the errors of my ways." > > > > It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk > percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the > past, let's move on." > > > > There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, > and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. > > Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? > > > > I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. > Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. > > > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hi Andy and Alfredo > > > > Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I > referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between > the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in > relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James > Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the > video) is this: > > > > Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with > its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, > Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement > which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and > ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study > ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how > unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are > situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the > system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also > tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces > mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which > we have to be concerned about. > > > > The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am > not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, > I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of > ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an > idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we > aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives > associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with > ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein > bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the > name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological > connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in > specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental > functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected > ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like > a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( > po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ > > ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan > Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, > unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying > adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific > tools?). > > > > My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources > that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I > referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? > knowledge?. > > > > It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for > the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook > for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we > take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for > Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical > Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is > generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge > accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to > advance the survival of humanity. > > > > Regards, > > Simangele > > > > > > > > > > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or > "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive > movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a > sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at > stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. > There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called > philanthropy and charity. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss > what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video > critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance > studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this > conversation! > > > > In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so > well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions > Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social > justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into > self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with > Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, > as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether > Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory > scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an > example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Hi Simangele, > > > > How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is > something with which psychology has had some difficulty. > > > > Martin > > > > *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my > partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with > the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela < > simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote: > > > > Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that > at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the > ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with > little consideration of the historical oppression that created the > ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what > appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more > about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black > skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. > > > > Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is > ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular > narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking > over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are > Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument > on ideologies. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!X8UcqNF4fpY0GR3Hatw7nXzHDrygqL_xYwaFOYHs5A-SztxKh5QW4Q0NuGt3utcsKD7FWQ$ > > > > > Regards > > S?ma > > > > > > > > *From:* Simangele Mayisela > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. > > > > Dear Alfredo > > > > Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering > the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies > as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for > ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the > ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to > the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the > scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms > of the ideas. > > > > Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? > > Regards, > > S?ma > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X8UcqNF4fpY0GR3Hatw7nXzHDrygqL_xYwaFOYHs5A-SztxKh5QW4Q0NuGt3ute21Y8Wmw$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X8UcqNF4fpY0GR3Hatw7nXzHDrygqL_xYwaFOYHs5A-SztxKh5QW4Q0NuGt3ute21Y8Wmw$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > > > -- > > Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it > will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of > rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the > same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X8UcqNF4fpY0GR3Hatw7nXzHDrygqL_xYwaFOYHs5A-SztxKh5QW4Q0NuGt3ute21Y8Wmw$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200705/842f55ef/attachment.html From jamesma320@gmail.com Sun Jul 5 03:54:23 2020 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 11:54:23 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> <0f470e7a-376b-5749-56d0-3ef757e57abd@marxists.org> , Message-ID: <4E78D022-4E8D-496F-8468-197DF0C7D150@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: C6005B43460640068FD3F29434FAE69E.png Type: image/png Size: 132 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200705/04671e89/attachment-0006.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DDF6123A0C354AA888A32DAA6C1075B6.png Type: image/png Size: 129 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200705/04671e89/attachment-0007.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EAE7CA3BA0BE404ABF44EEE8345D53B7.png Type: image/png Size: 145 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200705/04671e89/attachment-0008.png From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jul 5 10:12:48 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 17:12:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: <4E78D022-4E8D-496F-8468-197DF0C7D150@hxcore.ol> References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> <0f470e7a-376b-5749-56d0-3ef757e57abd@marxists.org> , , <4E78D022-4E8D-496F-8468-197DF0C7D150@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Hello, again, Huw, James, and venerable others, Sometimes I wonder if I am psychic. It is uncanny that I found this article after writing my post yesterday. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/health/coronavirus-neanderthals.html__;!!Mih3wA!X9ydoZ3j3seJFjnh7K-C6aF9c5ijZvQjmmZeHRLifXX5MfpvOmjkhjcua0ooJnOOt2R2mA$ The article explains that a possible reason that the virus is so harmful to some individuals might be explained by an ancient DNA sequence inherited from Neanderthals. The sequence is believed to possibly generate a response in the immune system against viruses. For those who have this gene, it is speculated that the immune system goes into overdrive, causing the inflammatory cascade of events that end up fatal for the individual. It's too much of a good thing apparently, especially for those who have more than one copy of the gene sequence within their DNA. It's an interesting development. I look to this article an an example of a total context, full of interlocking patterns that include history and environments that have emergent properties. James, when I was speaking of logic, I did place it in quotation marks not to scare anyone, but to suggest that there are logics inherent in patterns. These are not subjective, nor objective. I do concede that logic, quotes or not, might no be the right word, but it was what I had laying around to describe what I am attempting convey about patterns. Logic has a usage of being embedded in human cognition, though I did not intend in my use of the word to suggest it should be limited by human cognition. When we conceive of an equation, a2 + b2 = c2 , is that a logic? That the north star, being to the north, and that naval endeavors use that as an orientation point for their navigation, is that a logic? Additionally, I did not intend to be rude in my response Huw, if that was perceived, and that might be the limit of email and listserves not to translate that well. What I had detected in Huw's reply was a translation of what I said that seems to have been reduced back into a model of stimulus-response. I was attempting to correct that. I believe that if we are in discussion over a definition of terms, that that can happen, of course. My incapacity to use the right word likely has nothing to do with my level of human cognition, but more to do with the limits of language. The word "affordance," for example, was coined to describe something that had not been considered before. The circumstance it describes was not an invention, but a phenomenon that occurred in time and space long before Gibson came up with the word. Similarly people frequently do not understand the word, "affordance" and mistakenly believe its meaning has to do with something only in the environment, or only in the mind, but it is neither because it is both. Perhaps this another incident of the same family. I am attempting to explain a concept for which there may not yet be words. "Logic" was my attempt to describe the code or dynamic of a pattern. "Law" seems too rigid. When I looked up the definition of logic we find: 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. 2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic. 3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study. 4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move. 5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts. 6. Computers. logic circuit. I suppose I am trying to reference a meaning as indicated in definition #3, but one that is unified in the environment and not solely residing in humans. That might be unwelcome if reason is considered an attribute that is only inherent in humans. I might mean, "The system of principles or reasoning applicable to any interaction within a system of patterns, or inherent within an individual pattern." I have the sense that "sign," as I understand it anyway, siphons meaning into an object in the same way a cat might lift the cream from the bottle of milk that was produced by the efforts of a farmer and a cow. I'm appealing for a means to convey meaning that does not separate the sign from its environment and historical reality. I feel "logic" might be a better word. "Algorithm" would not work, as that seems too computational. Algorithm, while it is descriptive of activities, or steps in time, is challenged to represent any environmental factors or even change-response. It isn't holistic, it is atomic. Yes, I think "logic" is the right word for what I mean. Also I did not see even in the definition that there needs be a requirement for logic in order to be considered must be, objective or subjective, in that it must be decided whether it is one or the other. It can be both subjective and objective. Is that enough of a definition? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of James Ma Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 4:54 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] I couldn?t have agreed more with Huw. The concept of "logic" should have been defined at the outset of this line of discussion. Subjective logic? Objective logic? Or a combination of both, e.g. subjective logic through objective logic? I think what comes to prominence (particularly in social sciences) is subjective logic due to indeterminacy and uncertainty inherent in social and physical environments. James _______________________________________ James Ma https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa__;!!Mih3wA!X9ydoZ3j3seJFjnh7K-C6aF9c5ijZvQjmmZeHRLifXX5MfpvOmjkhjcua0ooJnMkuhCicw$ From: Huw Lloyd Sent: 05 July 2020 11:20 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency Annalisa, As I am not your teacher, it may be wisest to simply let this go. I think an instructive and questioning response would require an invitation, which is often implicit in the thoughtful exchanges I have had on this forum. Best, Huw On Sun, 5 Jul 2020 at 07:52, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Huw, et al I am not referring to synecdoche as a contextual pattern that alters stimulus response into stimulus-context-response. You are saying that, not me. I was saying that synecdoche is an example of a pattern(period). And the "logic" of this particular pattern is that it is not linear but bi-directional in its definition, and what determines the logic is the context. Perhaps an appropriate analogy might be epigenetics. We know that the DNA structure for a particular person may activate (for certain parts of the DNA) based upon certain other particular activators in the environment, but we have no way (yet) to determine the actual mechanisms because of the contextual role of the interaction, something far more complex to map, to pattern. We might look at the pandemic the same way. There is nothing linear about how the virus has spread. It's environmental, it's social, and it's bio-dynamic. It's all together a unified development. One cannot divide it into parts. Just as one cannot divide a symphony into playing instruments, it all comes to us as a unified experience, yet different for each individual, why? because of context, not cognitive development, as you put it. If not for the social delays the virus would not have taken hold to the degree that it has. That isn't stimulus-response. It is a pattern. And the pattern is predictable in the sense that we can model the pattern and determine its growth can become exponential in certain contexts. What is stimulous-response about any of this? Nothing is stimulus response. It's a pattern. We might say it is a pattern inclusive of social denial as a variable in the environment constitutes by many other dynamics. But stimulus-response is simply a dualistic and myopic tool that will not tell us anything. The virus isn't isolated to one city like Godzilla in downtown Tokyo. We must include the environment. That is why I maintain a pattern is a better way to model. One can't limit the spread of the virus to what is conscious and what is cognitive development and what are signs, because it has to do not only with the social dynamic, it has to do with airplanes, with cultures who are more affectionate than others, with economies, soccer games in large stadiums, with social notions over power and political tensions. It has to do with geographies and the densities of people, the placement of hospitals and how many ventilators are available. These are all patterns that coalesce in particular ways, that once we study them we might hope to understand them with more predictability. We hope that these patterns can be tipped enough to create different more responsive patterns that we hope will be more beneficial to us in terms of social health. Who can say? But our worldview must change. If you decide to limit everything about human behavior to cognition as something happening in the head, if that is what you are saying, I'm not sure, you are limiting swaths of information outside the head, and I'm not talking about signs or structures. What is easy to do with Vygotsky is to melt back into a neo-Pavlovian stance by reducing signs into stimulous that produces particular activity. A sign happens in the world, it's not divorced from it. Signs are not the material of behavior, of activity. They are perceptions shaped by cultural endeavors and circumstances in time and space in a unified way. And when I say time and space, I mean environment, or better context. Edwin Hutchins's Cognition in the Wild might be a great book to illustrate what I am attempting to convey, as it concerns marine navigation as a cultural practice. The stars are in the sky, and they move as the earth turns. Navigation is full of patterns (i.e., constellations, charts, maps, tides, time schedules, etc), and these coalesce into an activity of navigation, but how that manifests has to do with cultures, with what one is navigating (by sea, by air, by land?), which is nothing by contextual. It's not structural, it's not behavioral. What is the behavior of the stars? What is the structure of the ocean? The "material" is the world, but also our bodies and minds. Any signs we partake are indicative or our particular cultural ontology, the way we divide up the world to orient to it accordingly. But we could not create that ontology without the material of the world and our placement in it. I feel that a discussion of cognition defined of humans as bubbles of consciousness, some at a higher level than others, that "generate signals" from one bubble to another, like radio towers through a vacuum of empty space, is simply not accurate. It's still dualistic and isolates the human as something "different" from everything else that is here on this planet and universe. It's a strange geocentrism but this time about the human-mind-as-bubble, as the center of the universe, not the earth, this time around. There are different forms of consciousness everywhere around us. In plant life, in animals, to say the least. When we make ourselves as-if-superior by dividing ourselves from everything else, we are the ones who lose the meaning of what it is to manifest out OF something contextual. This separateness is an illusion, but it also allows a kind of mind that becomes incapable of empathy, of seeing the whole picture, of accepting change, and I'd say various other pathologies. Maybe I have not understood you, which is entirely possible. But that is how I see the matter at this juncture. Kind regards, Annalisa From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 3:07 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] What you are referring to as synechdoche (metonymy) as a contextual patterning that enriches stimulus-response dynamics to form a triadic relation (stimulus-context-response), is what I call symbol or orientation. Signs inform or account for orientation, which may not be conscious. For me the scope of orientation is principally contingent upon cognitive development. This is all largely in agreement with Vygotsky. However Vygotsky, especially in his more frequently known writings, did not explicitly write about the context, but rather focused upon mediating signs making up the structure of activity. In this regard, it is also worth comparing with Leontyev's activity. In my own writings this is described in my studies of active orientation, which in addition to the theoretical work studies signs-in-use in an experimental and developmental context and infers orientation. Since then I have come across more material but everything I have written there still remains consistent with my views and understandings. Huw On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 20:53, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Andy, David, Huw, et al XMCArs, Aren't logic and sign actually patterns (or arrangements) of other material things and events in time and space? I was reading an article in the NYT that used the word "synecdoche," a figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole or the whole for a part. It's an interesting word to me because it is a pattern of "this for that" when pertaining to wholes and parts and it is not uni-directional but flows in both directions. The nature of logic and of signs is that they are referential, like the act of pointing. Would the pattern embedded within a logic or a sign be likened to the definition of a word? Could it be that the evolutionary hardwired-ability for humans to perform facial recognition (i.e., babies and their caregivers) translate and develop into other forms of pattern recognition (through learning), such as the sound of a word that is learned first through hearing and then through pointing and then through speaking. I also wonder if patterns would be a more sophisticated pathway to handle the limitations of a stimulus-response model for behavior, which seems oppressively myopic and decontextualized in its linearity. On the other hand, a pattern is dimensional and aspectival as well as environmental, and likely easier to contextualize (and perhaps harder to decontextualize). Kind regards, Annalisa From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 10:11 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] Your observations square with ever so milder versions of what I have experienced and heard re the DDR. I remember as liberating the total absence of advertising and even the annoying absence of a customer-service-provider mentality, and at the same time being covertly approach for illicit foreign exchange transactions made me feel dirty and oozed oppression. Anyway, I don't think this is a structure/agency issue. The Chinese leadership know exactly what they are doing. Your observations about the US more clearly implicate structure/agency distinctions, in my view. As to Logic and Language, as I have previously remarked in this connection, David, for a man with a hammer everything is a nail. One of the problems is for people to presume that Logic (and concepts) is some kind of non-material entity, while speech and action are somehow more material. If you see these forms of human life as somehow "immaterial" then any rational account of human life is going appear "idealist" but the "idealism" is really on the other foot. andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 12:11 pm, David Kellogg wrote: This morning I have heard, from two very different human voices, that China is a totalitarian state in which the political structure inexorably determines agency. The first speaker, on an arts programme, cited his work in producing the London Olympics opening ceremony "in defiance" of the one which opened the Beijing Olympics: he set about artistically counterposing viscerality to pageantry. The second, on a science programme, spoke in awe of the ability of the municipal government of Wuhan to test the entire population in ten days--an achievement that he--rightly--valued higher than the construction of two large hospitals during the same time frame. It is interesting that both speakers denied that Chinese people might actually be exercising agency in both situations. I am trying to square this with my own experience in China. I was naive about a lot of things, but I don't think repression was one of them: I had certainly experienced repressive political structures in Sudan, Algeria, and Syria, in addition to my own country, where at the age of fourteen I had to sign an affidavit declaring that I was not a member of the Communist Party in order to get a summer gig at an A&W root beer stand! On Chinese television I heard of demonstrators being shot in the streets in Beijing, student leaders executed in Shanghai and sit-in protestors cut in half by trains; in Xinjiang and Guangzhou I witnessed public executions myself, and I certainly knew people who were imprisoned for their role in strikes, even when that role was merely acting as a mediator between workers and cops. I was fired from jobs for making statements of simple historical fact in Beijing and again in Xiamen, and I knew that I could not sue to get my job back. But there were three things which seemed to set me free, and which still sets life in China apart for me. The first was that for the first time in my life I was absolutely at liberty to say that I was a Marxist, even a Communist (although people would laugh at me and shake their heads and patiently explain that I didn't really know what I was on about). The second was that on public streets the vast majority of texts that I studied (I was still learning to read Chinese) had absolutely nothing to do with the exchange of commodities, the sale of information or branding of any kind. The third, however, was that almost everybody, including most Party members I knew, were unofficial, off-the-record, between-you-and-me dissidents of one kind or another. It struck me that the situation was really topsy-turvy. In the USA, where I was born, voting allowed a vast majority of people to regularly register as official dissenters, but in private there were hardly any people who opposed the social system as whole, that is, as a structure. (Isn't "contradiction" really a linguistic rather than a logical category? For that matter, isn't logic just a tidied up form of language, just as dialectics--hence the name--is a tidied up version of human voices?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X9ydoZ3j3seJFjnh7K-C6aF9c5ijZvQjmmZeHRLifXX5MfpvOmjkhjcua0ooJnN1dU8kxQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X9ydoZ3j3seJFjnh7K-C6aF9c5ijZvQjmmZeHRLifXX5MfpvOmjkhjcua0ooJnNY9Vv3LA$ On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1) Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change, because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising thing. The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of movement. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: Andy et Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective discoordination and infer the contradictions? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not automatic. But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative activities, trust we will all die. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: Andy -- You write that " The structure is built around contradictions" Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures contain the contradictions minist in social life? I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural structures that coordinate constituent activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. mike and g'night! On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's Logic and Marx's Capital is a contradiction. The structure is built around contradictions. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital." andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? Mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!X9ydoZ3j3seJFjnh7K-C6aF9c5ijZvQjmmZeHRLifXX5MfpvOmjkhjcua0ooJnPWRCgt3A$ Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: Mike, Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: S?ma et al., The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!X9ydoZ3j3seJFjnh7K-C6aF9c5ijZvQjmmZeHRLifXX5MfpvOmjkhjcua0ooJnNY5DXBEg$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!X9ydoZ3j3seJFjnh7K-C6aF9c5ijZvQjmmZeHRLifXX5MfpvOmjkhjcua0ooJnPn5nv9ow$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X9ydoZ3j3seJFjnh7K-C6aF9c5ijZvQjmmZeHRLifXX5MfpvOmjkhjcua0ooJnP6fyrLyQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X9ydoZ3j3seJFjnh7K-C6aF9c5ijZvQjmmZeHRLifXX5MfpvOmjkhjcua0ooJnP6fyrLyQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!X9ydoZ3j3seJFjnh7K-C6aF9c5ijZvQjmmZeHRLifXX5MfpvOmjkhjcua0ooJnP6fyrLyQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. 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Name: EAE7CA3BA0BE404ABF44EEE8345D53B7.png Type: image/png Size: 145 bytes Desc: EAE7CA3BA0BE404ABF44EEE8345D53B7.png Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200705/b72f45f1/attachment-0017.png From john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au Sun Jul 5 15:55:31 2020 From: john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au (John Cripps Clark) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 22:55:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> <0f470e7a-376b-5749-56d0-3ef757e57abd@marxists.org> <4E78D022-4E8D-496F-8468-197DF0C7D150@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: <77968A1F-92D0-499E-A506-42405D16C214@deakin.edu.au> Annalisa As well as ?total context?, the article is not-peer reviewed and as one of the authors says: ??One should stress that at this point this is pure speculation,? It is important to acknowledge how little we know. We have no idea why some individuals seem to be affected so catastrophically, while others may have mild or unnoticed symptoms; we have very little evidence whether some populations or groups have a higher death rates because the deaths that is attributed to Covid-19 is so rubbery from one jurisdiction to another. It is also worth keeping in mind that the Neanderthal genes that non-Africans carry is an argument by absence rather than direct measurement (a very good argument) and when it comes to the expression of genes the little we know often blinds us to our vast ignorance and the complexity of interaction and expression. Humans do like to build grandiloquent structures on tiny and uncertain foundations. John From: on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Monday, 6 July 2020 at 3:16 am To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency Hello, again, Huw, James, and venerable others, Sometimes I wonder if I am psychic. It is uncanny that I found this article after writing my post yesterday. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/health/coronavirus-neanderthals.html__;!!Mih3wA!QaJkcN16f-cq8lcoTSKsKWJSckyS4AG9PdT4zJYLhfNHvP-LbOpTocbE1moUbprfmI2a0g$ The article explains that a possible reason that the virus is so harmful to some individuals might be explained by an ancient DNA sequence inherited from Neanderthals. The sequence is believed to possibly generate a response in the immune system against viruses. For those who have this gene, it is speculated that the immune system goes into overdrive, causing the inflammatory cascade of events that end up fatal for the individual. It's too much of a good thing apparently, especially for those who have more than one copy of the gene sequence within their DNA. It's an interesting development. I look to this article an an example of a total context, full of interlocking patterns that include history and environments that have emergent properties. James, when I was speaking of logic, I did place it in quotation marks not to scare anyone, but to suggest that there are logics inherent in patterns. These are not subjective, nor objective. I do concede that logic, quotes or not, might no be the right word, but it was what I had laying around to describe what I am attempting convey about patterns. Logic has a usage of being embedded in human cognition, though I did not intend in my use of the word to suggest it should be limited by human cognition. When we conceive of an equation, a2 + b2 = c2 , is that a logic? That the north star, being to the north, and that naval endeavors use that as an orientation point for their navigation, is that a logic? Additionally, I did not intend to be rude in my response Huw, if that was perceived, and that might be the limit of email and listserves not to translate that well. What I had detected in Huw's reply was a translation of what I said that seems to have been reduced back into a model of stimulus-response. I was attempting to correct that. I believe that if we are in discussion over a definition of terms, that that can happen, of course. My incapacity to use the right word likely has nothing to do with my level of human cognition, but more to do with the limits of language. The word "affordance," for example, was coined to describe something that had not been considered before. The circumstance it describes was not an invention, but a phenomenon that occurred in time and space long before Gibson came up with the word. Similarly people frequently do not understand the word, "affordance" and mistakenly believe its meaning has to do with something only in the environment, or only in the mind, but it is neither because it is both. Perhaps this another incident of the same family. I am attempting to explain a concept for which there may not yet be words. "Logic" was my attempt to describe the code or dynamic of a pattern. "Law" seems too rigid. When I looked up the definition of logic we find: 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. 2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic. 3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study. 4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move. 5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts. 6. Computers. logic circuit. I suppose I am trying to reference a meaning as indicated in definition #3, but one that is unified in the environment and not solely residing in humans. That might be unwelcome if reason is considered an attribute that is only inherent in humans. I might mean, "The system of principles or reasoning applicable to any interaction within a system of patterns, or inherent within an individual pattern." I have the sense that "sign," as I understand it anyway, siphons meaning into an object in the same way a cat might lift the cream from the bottle of milk that was produced by the efforts of a farmer and a cow. I'm appealing for a means to convey meaning that does not separate the sign from its environment and historical reality. I feel "logic" might be a better word. "Algorithm" would not work, as that seems too computational. Algorithm, while it is descriptive of activities, or steps in time, is challenged to represent any environmental factors or even change-response. It isn't holistic, it is atomic. Yes, I think "logic" is the right word for what I mean. Also I did not see even in the definition that there needs be a requirement for logic in order to be considered must be, objective or subjective, in that it must be decided whether it is one or the other. It can be both subjective and objective. Is that enough of a definition? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of James Ma Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 4:54 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] I couldn?t have agreed more with Huw. The concept of "logic" should have been defined at the outset of this line of discussion. Subjective logic? Objective logic? Or a combination of both, e.g. subjective logic through objective logic? I think what comes to prominence (particularly in social sciences) is subjective logic due to indeterminacy and uncertainty inherent in social and physical environments. James _______________________________________ James Ma https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa__;!!Mih3wA!QaJkcN16f-cq8lcoTSKsKWJSckyS4AG9PdT4zJYLhfNHvP-LbOpTocbE1moUbpoJ3QMJbQ$ From: Huw Lloyd Sent: 05 July 2020 11:20 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency Annalisa, As I am not your teacher, it may be wisest to simply let this go. I think an instructive and questioning response would require an invitation, which is often implicit in the thoughtful exchanges I have had on this forum. Best, Huw On Sun, 5 Jul 2020 at 07:52, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Huw, et al I am not referring to synecdoche as a contextual pattern that alters stimulus response into stimulus-context-response. You are saying that, not me. I was saying that synecdoche is an example of a pattern(period). And the "logic" of this particular pattern is that it is not linear but bi-directional in its definition, and what determines the logic is the context. Perhaps an appropriate analogy might be epigenetics. We know that the DNA structure for a particular person may activate (for certain parts of the DNA) based upon certain other particular activators in the environment, but we have no way (yet) to determine the actual mechanisms because of the contextual role of the interaction, something far more complex to map, to pattern. We might look at the pandemic the same way. There is nothing linear about how the virus has spread. It's environmental, it's social, and it's bio-dynamic. It's all together a unified development. One cannot divide it into parts. Just as one cannot divide a symphony into playing instruments, it all comes to us as a unified experience, yet different for each individual, why? because of context, not cognitive development, as you put it. If not for the social delays the virus would not have taken hold to the degree that it has. That isn't stimulus-response. It is a pattern. And the pattern is predictable in the sense that we can model the pattern and determine its growth can become exponential in certain contexts. What is stimulous-response about any of this? Nothing is stimulus response. It's a pattern. We might say it is a pattern inclusive of social denial as a variable in the environment constitutes by many other dynamics. But stimulus-response is simply a dualistic and myopic tool that will not tell us anything. The virus isn't isolated to one city like Godzilla in downtown Tokyo. We must include the environment. That is why I maintain a pattern is a better way to model. One can't limit the spread of the virus to what is conscious and what is cognitive development and what are signs, because it has to do not only with the social dynamic, it has to do with airplanes, with cultures who are more affectionate than others, with economies, soccer games in large stadiums, with social notions over power and political tensions. It has to do with geographies and the densities of people, the placement of hospitals and how many ventilators are available. These are all patterns that coalesce in particular ways, that once we study them we might hope to understand them with more predictability. We hope that these patterns can be tipped enough to create different more responsive patterns that we hope will be more beneficial to us in terms of social health. Who can say? But our worldview must change. If you decide to limit everything about human behavior to cognition as something happening in the head, if that is what you are saying, I'm not sure, you are limiting swaths of information outside the head, and I'm not talking about signs or structures. What is easy to do with Vygotsky is to melt back into a neo-Pavlovian stance by reducing signs into stimulous that produces particular activity. A sign happens in the world, it's not divorced from it. Signs are not the material of behavior, of activity. They are perceptions shaped by cultural endeavors and circumstances in time and space in a unified way. And when I say time and space, I mean environment, or better context. Edwin Hutchins's Cognition in the Wild might be a great book to illustrate what I am attempting to convey, as it concerns marine navigation as a cultural practice. The stars are in the sky, and they move as the earth turns. Navigation is full of patterns (i.e., constellations, charts, maps, tides, time schedules, etc), and these coalesce into an activity of navigation, but how that manifests has to do with cultures, with what one is navigating (by sea, by air, by land?), which is nothing by contextual. It's not structural, it's not behavioral. What is the behavior of the stars? What is the structure of the ocean? The "material" is the world, but also our bodies and minds. Any signs we partake are indicative or our particular cultural ontology, the way we divide up the world to orient to it accordingly. But we could not create that ontology without the material of the world and our placement in it. I feel that a discussion of cognition defined of humans as bubbles of consciousness, some at a higher level than others, that "generate signals" from one bubble to another, like radio towers through a vacuum of empty space, is simply not accurate. It's still dualistic and isolates the human as something "different" from everything else that is here on this planet and universe. It's a strange geocentrism but this time about the human-mind-as-bubble, as the center of the universe, not the earth, this time around. There are different forms of consciousness everywhere around us. In plant life, in animals, to say the least. When we make ourselves as-if-superior by dividing ourselves from everything else, we are the ones who lose the meaning of what it is to manifest out OF something contextual. This separateness is an illusion, but it also allows a kind of mind that becomes incapable of empathy, of seeing the whole picture, of accepting change, and I'd say various other pathologies. Maybe I have not understood you, which is entirely possible. But that is how I see the matter at this juncture. Kind regards, Annalisa From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 3:07 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] What you are referring to as synechdoche (metonymy) as a contextual patterning that enriches stimulus-response dynamics to form a triadic relation (stimulus-context-response), is what I call symbol or orientation. Signs inform or account for orientation, which may not be conscious. For me the scope of orientation is principally contingent upon cognitive development. This is all largely in agreement with Vygotsky. However Vygotsky, especially in his more frequently known writings, did not explicitly write about the context, but rather focused upon mediating signs making up the structure of activity. In this regard, it is also worth comparing with Leontyev's activity. In my own writings this is described in my studies of active orientation, which in addition to the theoretical work studies signs-in-use in an experimental and developmental context and infers orientation. Since then I have come across more material but everything I have written there still remains consistent with my views and understandings. Huw On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 20:53, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Andy, David, Huw, et al XMCArs, Aren't logic and sign actually patterns (or arrangements) of other material things and events in time and space? I was reading an article in the NYT that used the word "synecdoche," a figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole or the whole for a part. It's an interesting word to me because it is a pattern of "this for that" when pertaining to wholes and parts and it is not uni-directional but flows in both directions. The nature of logic and of signs is that they are referential, like the act of pointing. Would the pattern embedded within a logic or a sign be likened to the definition of a word? Could it be that the evolutionary hardwired-ability for humans to perform facial recognition (i.e., babies and their caregivers) translate and develop into other forms of pattern recognition (through learning), such as the sound of a word that is learned first through hearing and then through pointing and then through speaking. I also wonder if patterns would be a more sophisticated pathway to handle the limitations of a stimulus-response model for behavior, which seems oppressively myopic and decontextualized in its linearity. On the other hand, a pattern is dimensional and aspectival as well as environmental, and likely easier to contextualize (and perhaps harder to decontextualize). Kind regards, Annalisa From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 10:11 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] Your observations square with ever so milder versions of what I have experienced and heard re the DDR. I remember as liberating the total absence of advertising and even the annoying absence of a customer-service-provider mentality, and at the same time being covertly approach for illicit foreign exchange transactions made me feel dirty and oozed oppression. Anyway, I don't think this is a structure/agency issue. The Chinese leadership know exactly what they are doing. Your observations about the US more clearly implicate structure/agency distinctions, in my view. As to Logic and Language, as I have previously remarked in this connection, David, for a man with a hammer everything is a nail. One of the problems is for people to presume that Logic (and concepts) is some kind of non-material entity, while speech and action are somehow more material. If you see these forms of human life as somehow "immaterial" then any rational account of human life is going appear "idealist" but the "idealism" is really on the other foot. andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 12:11 pm, David Kellogg wrote: This morning I have heard, from two very different human voices, that China is a totalitarian state in which the political structure inexorably determines agency. The first speaker, on an arts programme, cited his work in producing the London Olympics opening ceremony "in defiance" of the one which opened the Beijing Olympics: he set about artistically counterposing viscerality to pageantry. The second, on a science programme, spoke in awe of the ability of the municipal government of Wuhan to test the entire population in ten days--an achievement that he--rightly--valued higher than the construction of two large hospitals during the same time frame. It is interesting that both speakers denied that Chinese people might actually be exercising agency in both situations. I am trying to square this with my own experience in China. I was naive about a lot of things, but I don't think repression was one of them: I had certainly experienced repressive political structures in Sudan, Algeria, and Syria, in addition to my own country, where at the age of fourteen I had to sign an affidavit declaring that I was not a member of the Communist Party in order to get a summer gig at an A&W root beer stand! On Chinese television I heard of demonstrators being shot in the streets in Beijing, student leaders executed in Shanghai and sit-in protestors cut in half by trains; in Xinjiang and Guangzhou I witnessed public executions myself, and I certainly knew people who were imprisoned for their role in strikes, even when that role was merely acting as a mediator between workers and cops. I was fired from jobs for making statements of simple historical fact in Beijing and again in Xiamen, and I knew that I could not sue to get my job back. But there were three things which seemed to set me free, and which still sets life in China apart for me. The first was that for the first time in my life I was absolutely at liberty to say that I was a Marxist, even a Communist (although people would laugh at me and shake their heads and patiently explain that I didn't really know what I was on about). The second was that on public streets the vast majority of texts that I studied (I was still learning to read Chinese) had absolutely nothing to do with the exchange of commodities, the sale of information or branding of any kind. The third, however, was that almost everybody, including most Party members I knew, were unofficial, off-the-record, between-you-and-me dissidents of one kind or another. It struck me that the situation was really topsy-turvy. In the USA, where I was born, voting allowed a vast majority of people to regularly register as official dissenters, but in private there were hardly any people who opposed the social system as whole, that is, as a structure. (Isn't "contradiction" really a linguistic rather than a logical category? For that matter, isn't logic just a tidied up form of language, just as dialectics--hence the name--is a tidied up version of human voices?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QaJkcN16f-cq8lcoTSKsKWJSckyS4AG9PdT4zJYLhfNHvP-LbOpTocbE1moUbpqQ9zKWoQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QaJkcN16f-cq8lcoTSKsKWJSckyS4AG9PdT4zJYLhfNHvP-LbOpTocbE1moUbpomRQ3f4g$ On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1) Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change, because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising thing. The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of movement. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: Andy et Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective discoordination and infer the contradictions? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not automatic. But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative activities, trust we will all die. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: Andy -- You write that " The structure is built around contradictions" Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures contain the contradictions minist in social life? I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural structures that coordinate constituent activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. mike and g'night! On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's Logic and Marx's Capital is a contradiction. The structure is built around contradictions. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital." andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? Mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!QaJkcN16f-cq8lcoTSKsKWJSckyS4AG9PdT4zJYLhfNHvP-LbOpTocbE1moUbppx18Xftg$ Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: Mike, Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: S?ma et al., The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!QaJkcN16f-cq8lcoTSKsKWJSckyS4AG9PdT4zJYLhfNHvP-LbOpTocbE1moUbppYVnamDQ$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!QaJkcN16f-cq8lcoTSKsKWJSckyS4AG9PdT4zJYLhfNHvP-LbOpTocbE1moUbpqjS5VaBQ$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QaJkcN16f-cq8lcoTSKsKWJSckyS4AG9PdT4zJYLhfNHvP-LbOpTocbE1moUbpp3FFEjYg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QaJkcN16f-cq8lcoTSKsKWJSckyS4AG9PdT4zJYLhfNHvP-LbOpTocbE1moUbpp3FFEjYg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QaJkcN16f-cq8lcoTSKsKWJSckyS4AG9PdT4zJYLhfNHvP-LbOpTocbE1moUbpp3FFEjYg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. 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Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 134 bytes Desc: image009.png Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200705/d9141746/attachment-0008.png From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jul 5 17:33:40 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 00:33:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency In-Reply-To: <77968A1F-92D0-499E-A506-42405D16C214@deakin.edu.au> References: <9d72279f-a72f-048b-cbde-4b29e3d5b832@marxists.org> <0f470e7a-376b-5749-56d0-3ef757e57abd@marxists.org> <4E78D022-4E8D-496F-8468-197DF0C7D150@hxcore.ol> , <77968A1F-92D0-499E-A506-42405D16C214@deakin.edu.au> Message-ID: Hi John, A little perplexed here. I don't think I represented the NYT article as peer-reviewed, in any way. I did use words as "The article explains that a possible reason that the virus is so harmful to some individuals might be explained..." The study that *was* just written is set for per review, soon though. When I referred to an example of total context, I suppose I wasn't precise enough. My apologies. When I was describing total context, I mean that it's not only the killing of a virus that will solve the problem, but understanding our immune system and how it involves genes. Whether or not the gene sequence is there in a person fighting the virus, if there is a link to a particular sequence passed down the branches of evolution and a vulnerability to the virus, it need not be the only vulnerability to the virus. For example many people in essential services are vulnerable to high exposure and in that case the virus hitting many people of color would likely not be explained by the presence or absence of this genome sequence, but instead viral load from repeated exposure, which would be a consequence of class and other inequities. I maintain that the article is still a reference to a total context that includes evolutionary history. It's so resourceful that researchers can access databanks of genes from human remains tens of thousands of years old as a means of understanding our immune systems today. When I used the phrase "total context" I meant non-linear, non-atomic. Not total, as in absolute and complete. I certainly did not intend to misrepresent anything. I find it wonderful that we can even know about a study before a peer review, in this time and age. Publishing this article and possibly my referencing it on this list might push it outward to other bona fie researchers, who can contact and discuss their ideas about it with each other. We serve one another through sharing ideas even if they are incomplete (isn't this what peer review is?), which I believe is more beneficial for all of us than fear of a risk of "grandiloquent structures on tiny and uncertain foundations." Anyone is free to build such structures, but if they are on tiny and uncertain foundations, as you say, they will simply implode upon their own weight. I do not think there is anything to fear. If something is true it will hold up from the test of time. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of John Cripps Clark Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 4:55 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] Annalisa As well as ?total context?, the article is not-peer reviewed and as one of the authors says: ??One should stress that at this point this is pure speculation,? It is important to acknowledge how little we know. We have no idea why some individuals seem to be affected so catastrophically, while others may have mild or unnoticed symptoms; we have very little evidence whether some populations or groups have a higher death rates because the deaths that is attributed to Covid-19 is so rubbery from one jurisdiction to another. It is also worth keeping in mind that the Neanderthal genes that non-Africans carry is an argument by absence rather than direct measurement (a very good argument) and when it comes to the expression of genes the little we know often blinds us to our vast ignorance and the complexity of interaction and expression. Humans do like to build grandiloquent structures on tiny and uncertain foundations. John From: on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Monday, 6 July 2020 at 3:16 am To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency Hello, again, Huw, James, and venerable others, Sometimes I wonder if I am psychic. It is uncanny that I found this article after writing my post yesterday. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/health/coronavirus-neanderthals.html__;!!Mih3wA!Q88sWIpulN-Tc_a32FxAhCl08m4R_xnpaE9kFD-PeoDo-WfoKzV0ep9lNP7FG0_O5dbrBA$ The article explains that a possible reason that the virus is so harmful to some individuals might be explained by an ancient DNA sequence inherited from Neanderthals. The sequence is believed to possibly generate a response in the immune system against viruses. For those who have this gene, it is speculated that the immune system goes into overdrive, causing the inflammatory cascade of events that end up fatal for the individual. It's too much of a good thing apparently, especially for those who have more than one copy of the gene sequence within their DNA. It's an interesting development. I look to this article an an example of a total context, full of interlocking patterns that include history and environments that have emergent properties. James, when I was speaking of logic, I did place it in quotation marks not to scare anyone, but to suggest that there are logics inherent in patterns. These are not subjective, nor objective. I do concede that logic, quotes or not, might no be the right word, but it was what I had laying around to describe what I am attempting convey about patterns. Logic has a usage of being embedded in human cognition, though I did not intend in my use of the word to suggest it should be limited by human cognition. When we conceive of an equation, a2 + b2 = c2 , is that a logic? That the north star, being to the north, and that naval endeavors use that as an orientation point for their navigation, is that a logic? Additionally, I did not intend to be rude in my response Huw, if that was perceived, and that might be the limit of email and listserves not to translate that well. What I had detected in Huw's reply was a translation of what I said that seems to have been reduced back into a model of stimulus-response. I was attempting to correct that. I believe that if we are in discussion over a definition of terms, that that can happen, of course. My incapacity to use the right word likely has nothing to do with my level of human cognition, but more to do with the limits of language. The word "affordance," for example, was coined to describe something that had not been considered before. The circumstance it describes was not an invention, but a phenomenon that occurred in time and space long before Gibson came up with the word. Similarly people frequently do not understand the word, "affordance" and mistakenly believe its meaning has to do with something only in the environment, or only in the mind, but it is neither because it is both. Perhaps this another incident of the same family. I am attempting to explain a concept for which there may not yet be words. "Logic" was my attempt to describe the code or dynamic of a pattern. "Law" seems too rigid. When I looked up the definition of logic we find: 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. 2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic. 3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study. 4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move. 5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts. 6. Computers. logic circuit. I suppose I am trying to reference a meaning as indicated in definition #3, but one that is unified in the environment and not solely residing in humans. That might be unwelcome if reason is considered an attribute that is only inherent in humans. I might mean, "The system of principles or reasoning applicable to any interaction within a system of patterns, or inherent within an individual pattern." I have the sense that "sign," as I understand it anyway, siphons meaning into an object in the same way a cat might lift the cream from the bottle of milk that was produced by the efforts of a farmer and a cow. I'm appealing for a means to convey meaning that does not separate the sign from its environment and historical reality. I feel "logic" might be a better word. "Algorithm" would not work, as that seems too computational. Algorithm, while it is descriptive of activities, or steps in time, is challenged to represent any environmental factors or even change-response. It isn't holistic, it is atomic. Yes, I think "logic" is the right word for what I mean. Also I did not see even in the definition that there needs be a requirement for logic in order to be considered must be, objective or subjective, in that it must be decided whether it is one or the other. It can be both subjective and objective. Is that enough of a definition? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of James Ma Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 4:54 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] I couldn?t have agreed more with Huw. The concept of "logic" should have been defined at the outset of this line of discussion. Subjective logic? Objective logic? Or a combination of both, e.g. subjective logic through objective logic? I think what comes to prominence (particularly in social sciences) is subjective logic due to indeterminacy and uncertainty inherent in social and physical environments. James _______________________________________ James Ma https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa__;!!Mih3wA!Q88sWIpulN-Tc_a32FxAhCl08m4R_xnpaE9kFD-PeoDo-WfoKzV0ep9lNP7FG09dUSQPLA$ From: Huw Lloyd Sent: 05 July 2020 11:20 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency Annalisa, As I am not your teacher, it may be wisest to simply let this go. I think an instructive and questioning response would require an invitation, which is often implicit in the thoughtful exchanges I have had on this forum. Best, Huw On Sun, 5 Jul 2020 at 07:52, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Huw, et al I am not referring to synecdoche as a contextual pattern that alters stimulus response into stimulus-context-response. You are saying that, not me. I was saying that synecdoche is an example of a pattern(period). And the "logic" of this particular pattern is that it is not linear but bi-directional in its definition, and what determines the logic is the context. Perhaps an appropriate analogy might be epigenetics. We know that the DNA structure for a particular person may activate (for certain parts of the DNA) based upon certain other particular activators in the environment, but we have no way (yet) to determine the actual mechanisms because of the contextual role of the interaction, something far more complex to map, to pattern. We might look at the pandemic the same way. There is nothing linear about how the virus has spread. It's environmental, it's social, and it's bio-dynamic. It's all together a unified development. One cannot divide it into parts. Just as one cannot divide a symphony into playing instruments, it all comes to us as a unified experience, yet different for each individual, why? because of context, not cognitive development, as you put it. If not for the social delays the virus would not have taken hold to the degree that it has. That isn't stimulus-response. It is a pattern. And the pattern is predictable in the sense that we can model the pattern and determine its growth can become exponential in certain contexts. What is stimulous-response about any of this? Nothing is stimulus response. It's a pattern. We might say it is a pattern inclusive of social denial as a variable in the environment constitutes by many other dynamics. But stimulus-response is simply a dualistic and myopic tool that will not tell us anything. The virus isn't isolated to one city like Godzilla in downtown Tokyo. We must include the environment. That is why I maintain a pattern is a better way to model. One can't limit the spread of the virus to what is conscious and what is cognitive development and what are signs, because it has to do not only with the social dynamic, it has to do with airplanes, with cultures who are more affectionate than others, with economies, soccer games in large stadiums, with social notions over power and political tensions. It has to do with geographies and the densities of people, the placement of hospitals and how many ventilators are available. These are all patterns that coalesce in particular ways, that once we study them we might hope to understand them with more predictability. We hope that these patterns can be tipped enough to create different more responsive patterns that we hope will be more beneficial to us in terms of social health. Who can say? But our worldview must change. If you decide to limit everything about human behavior to cognition as something happening in the head, if that is what you are saying, I'm not sure, you are limiting swaths of information outside the head, and I'm not talking about signs or structures. What is easy to do with Vygotsky is to melt back into a neo-Pavlovian stance by reducing signs into stimulous that produces particular activity. A sign happens in the world, it's not divorced from it. Signs are not the material of behavior, of activity. They are perceptions shaped by cultural endeavors and circumstances in time and space in a unified way. And when I say time and space, I mean environment, or better context. Edwin Hutchins's Cognition in the Wild might be a great book to illustrate what I am attempting to convey, as it concerns marine navigation as a cultural practice. The stars are in the sky, and they move as the earth turns. Navigation is full of patterns (i.e., constellations, charts, maps, tides, time schedules, etc), and these coalesce into an activity of navigation, but how that manifests has to do with cultures, with what one is navigating (by sea, by air, by land?), which is nothing by contextual. It's not structural, it's not behavioral. What is the behavior of the stars? What is the structure of the ocean? The "material" is the world, but also our bodies and minds. Any signs we partake are indicative or our particular cultural ontology, the way we divide up the world to orient to it accordingly. But we could not create that ontology without the material of the world and our placement in it. I feel that a discussion of cognition defined of humans as bubbles of consciousness, some at a higher level than others, that "generate signals" from one bubble to another, like radio towers through a vacuum of empty space, is simply not accurate. It's still dualistic and isolates the human as something "different" from everything else that is here on this planet and universe. It's a strange geocentrism but this time about the human-mind-as-bubble, as the center of the universe, not the earth, this time around. There are different forms of consciousness everywhere around us. In plant life, in animals, to say the least. When we make ourselves as-if-superior by dividing ourselves from everything else, we are the ones who lose the meaning of what it is to manifest out OF something contextual. This separateness is an illusion, but it also allows a kind of mind that becomes incapable of empathy, of seeing the whole picture, of accepting change, and I'd say various other pathologies. Maybe I have not understood you, which is entirely possible. But that is how I see the matter at this juncture. Kind regards, Annalisa From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 3:07 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] What you are referring to as synechdoche (metonymy) as a contextual patterning that enriches stimulus-response dynamics to form a triadic relation (stimulus-context-response), is what I call symbol or orientation. Signs inform or account for orientation, which may not be conscious. For me the scope of orientation is principally contingent upon cognitive development. This is all largely in agreement with Vygotsky. However Vygotsky, especially in his more frequently known writings, did not explicitly write about the context, but rather focused upon mediating signs making up the structure of activity. In this regard, it is also worth comparing with Leontyev's activity. In my own writings this is described in my studies of active orientation, which in addition to the theoretical work studies signs-in-use in an experimental and developmental context and infers orientation. Since then I have come across more material but everything I have written there still remains consistent with my views and understandings. Huw On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 20:53, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Andy, David, Huw, et al XMCArs, Aren't logic and sign actually patterns (or arrangements) of other material things and events in time and space? I was reading an article in the NYT that used the word "synecdoche," a figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole or the whole for a part. It's an interesting word to me because it is a pattern of "this for that" when pertaining to wholes and parts and it is not uni-directional but flows in both directions. The nature of logic and of signs is that they are referential, like the act of pointing. Would the pattern embedded within a logic or a sign be likened to the definition of a word? Could it be that the evolutionary hardwired-ability for humans to perform facial recognition (i.e., babies and their caregivers) translate and develop into other forms of pattern recognition (through learning), such as the sound of a word that is learned first through hearing and then through pointing and then through speaking. I also wonder if patterns would be a more sophisticated pathway to handle the limitations of a stimulus-response model for behavior, which seems oppressively myopic and decontextualized in its linearity. On the other hand, a pattern is dimensional and aspectival as well as environmental, and likely easier to contextualize (and perhaps harder to decontextualize). Kind regards, Annalisa From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 10:11 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: structure and agency [EXTERNAL] Your observations square with ever so milder versions of what I have experienced and heard re the DDR. I remember as liberating the total absence of advertising and even the annoying absence of a customer-service-provider mentality, and at the same time being covertly approach for illicit foreign exchange transactions made me feel dirty and oozed oppression. Anyway, I don't think this is a structure/agency issue. The Chinese leadership know exactly what they are doing. Your observations about the US more clearly implicate structure/agency distinctions, in my view. As to Logic and Language, as I have previously remarked in this connection, David, for a man with a hammer everything is a nail. One of the problems is for people to presume that Logic (and concepts) is some kind of non-material entity, while speech and action are somehow more material. If you see these forms of human life as somehow "immaterial" then any rational account of human life is going appear "idealist" but the "idealism" is really on the other foot. andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 12:11 pm, David Kellogg wrote: This morning I have heard, from two very different human voices, that China is a totalitarian state in which the political structure inexorably determines agency. The first speaker, on an arts programme, cited his work in producing the London Olympics opening ceremony "in defiance" of the one which opened the Beijing Olympics: he set about artistically counterposing viscerality to pageantry. The second, on a science programme, spoke in awe of the ability of the municipal government of Wuhan to test the entire population in ten days--an achievement that he--rightly--valued higher than the construction of two large hospitals during the same time frame. It is interesting that both speakers denied that Chinese people might actually be exercising agency in both situations. I am trying to square this with my own experience in China. I was naive about a lot of things, but I don't think repression was one of them: I had certainly experienced repressive political structures in Sudan, Algeria, and Syria, in addition to my own country, where at the age of fourteen I had to sign an affidavit declaring that I was not a member of the Communist Party in order to get a summer gig at an A&W root beer stand! On Chinese television I heard of demonstrators being shot in the streets in Beijing, student leaders executed in Shanghai and sit-in protestors cut in half by trains; in Xinjiang and Guangzhou I witnessed public executions myself, and I certainly knew people who were imprisoned for their role in strikes, even when that role was merely acting as a mediator between workers and cops. I was fired from jobs for making statements of simple historical fact in Beijing and again in Xiamen, and I knew that I could not sue to get my job back. But there were three things which seemed to set me free, and which still sets life in China apart for me. The first was that for the first time in my life I was absolutely at liberty to say that I was a Marxist, even a Communist (although people would laugh at me and shake their heads and patiently explain that I didn't really know what I was on about). The second was that on public streets the vast majority of texts that I studied (I was still learning to read Chinese) had absolutely nothing to do with the exchange of commodities, the sale of information or branding of any kind. The third, however, was that almost everybody, including most Party members I knew, were unofficial, off-the-record, between-you-and-me dissidents of one kind or another. It struck me that the situation was really topsy-turvy. In the USA, where I was born, voting allowed a vast majority of people to regularly register as official dissenters, but in private there were hardly any people who opposed the social system as whole, that is, as a structure. (Isn't "contradiction" really a linguistic rather than a logical category? For that matter, isn't logic just a tidied up form of language, just as dialectics--hence the name--is a tidied up version of human voices?) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q88sWIpulN-Tc_a32FxAhCl08m4R_xnpaE9kFD-PeoDo-WfoKzV0ep9lNP7FG0-3MGXtpA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q88sWIpulN-Tc_a32FxAhCl08m4R_xnpaE9kFD-PeoDo-WfoKzV0ep9lNP7FG0-4uts4IA$ On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: I am guessing that the aim of replacing "contradiction" with "disco-ordination" is locate the essential process in activity rather than logic. This is a worthy aim, but it is mistaken for two reasons. (1) Disco-ordination actually refers to behaviour rather than activity, that is, physical movements that are not necessarily fulfilling the actors' reasons or intentions. While such disco-ordination can disrupts norms and aggravate conflict, I don't believe they are impulses to social change, because the norms are not confronted by alternative norms - one has to look to why norms are not binding, and (2) People do things for reasons and insofar as people do different things for the same reason, which could possibly cause disco-ordination, I don't think this is threatening to a social formation. A certain amount of disco-ordination can be a stabilising thing. The fact is that social formations are ideal orders, not just patterns of movement. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 2/07/2020 2:44 am, mike cole wrote: Andy et Is it permissible to substitute the term, discoordination for contradiction at least at the empirical level. We observe selective discoordination and infer the contradictions? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: "Contradiction" is only a coherent concept insofar as there is a "logic", i.e., some institution. The general idea is that all logics contain such contradictions. Institutions "try" to eliminate contradictions and instantiate a "logic," but it turns out to be a losing battle. Nonetheless, an institution can live forever without changing despite harbouring contradictions. The structure has to be subject to critique; the contradictions have to be exposed and pursued. Movement and change is not automatic. But yes, you are right, life, let alone social life, is impossible without "institutions." We continue building that aeroplane as it flies through the sky. Without institutions, norms, shared meanings, collaborative activities, trust we will all die. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 2:16 pm, mike cole wrote: Andy -- You write that " The structure is built around contradictions" Would it be useful to say, also, that "structures contain the contradictions minist in social life? I am asking because i am thinking of institutions as sociocultural structures that coordinate constituent activities sufficiently to enable human biocuturalsocial re-production.. mike and g'night! On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant structures, which explicate how a social formation reproduces itself. I.e., they look like structuralists. But look again. At the heart of Hegel's Logic and Marx's Capital is a contradiction. The structure is built around contradictions. Under the impact of critique, at a certain point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation. Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in his system with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's Capital." andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote: David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with the distinctions you are making? Mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates from the beginning of the 20th century and poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky. But as I see it, "Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded projects. I agree that both of these projects have had an impact or influence on the development of Critical Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist." * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!Q88sWIpulN-Tc_a32FxAhCl08m4R_xnpaE9kFD-PeoDo-WfoKzV0ep9lNP7FG0_JKq4A2g$ Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote: Mike, Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My guess/impression is that as critical theory and sociocultural theory evolved both have been influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in either arena really grappled with the implications of such a turn. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or stability of structure? Most of the marxist social science I am reading these days focuses on transformational agency and take their roots from Vygotsky and (various )predecessors, so this is post-structuralist Marxism? mike On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: S?ma et al., The issue of victimhood and ?victim mentality? is roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and postmodernist, structuralist and poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is always perspectival?I have been wronged. In a modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e., structuralist) account that authorizes its significance. Critical theory, stemming from Marxist theory, is such a structuralist account?or perhaps, more accurately, a structuralist project as it is not clear that critical theorists have arrived at consensus about the theory. Postmodernism and poststructuralism abandon the structuralist mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock structural perspective that can encompass the variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my victimhood is simply my perspective, and the project of establishing its viability is purely a political one. Any of us can experience ourselves as victims, and assert a political claim to that effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right that embodies this poststructuralist critique of victimhood, and the political Left that orients itself in structuralism. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Annalisa and colleagues Thank you for processing my earlier articulation in such an impeccable manner. I see how your method of using definitions as a foundation for conversations, specially sensitive conversations in a multicultural forum such as this one. You have beautifully demonstrated that in your response below and in some of your previous enlightening contributions. Your reference to the George Orwell?s 1984 is quite fitting in this situation; when a victim expresses that they are victimised, they are then ?gaslighted?, as there is something seriously wrong with their mentality ? the victim mentality. It is short of saying ?do not think? that you are victimised even if there is ?victimisation?, or you ?were? victimised. Perhaps we can accept better with ?survivors? but the conditions and the context under which? survivors? continue to survive. Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept, ?Critical Theory? to name, and shine light on the hidden aspects of ?survivorhood?, where the conditions for thinking about or ?reflecting? surviving are determined and controlled, even those who have power ? ?scientific or unscientific?. There is undeniable history of efforts and activities of survivors of different forms oppressions and genocides, where generations of survivors have shown resilience and the ability to move on, but only to be met with new and systematic ways of psychological and economic oppression. Leaving them with no option but to survive by different means at the disposal, including becoming religious with the home for future redemption. Of more interest to me are those who keep trying using ?enlightened? ways by intellectually explaining to themselves as a collective and to the oppressor with the hope to bring about change for their situation ? the ?doing something about their situation.? Using the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!Q88sWIpulN-Tc_a32FxAhCl08m4R_xnpaE9kFD-PeoDo-WfoKzV0ep9lNP7FG09Qmlszsw$ (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a way that highlights why ?victim mentality? is not an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who are working hard to be free, let alone to be at par with the oppressors? ?survivors? if I may say so. The video is in the context of the gruesome protests after the murder of George Floyd, perhaps what is important for this conversation is the content, the meaning of her articulations, though her expressions are accompanied by very strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy worth my reflection. I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some links between Cultural Historical Activity Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this thread who have used these theoretical lenses in their work in trying to understand mental development it the global context. I think Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of the appropriate tools to explain that which concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding its way of infiltrating critical spaces in communities, including academia, which he sees as nothing but ?Grievance Studies? and threatening scientific thinking. It has been good partaking in these conversations. I think reflections can continue to happen in private at a personal level and in smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to reflect on our thinking and our learning. I myself have learned a lot from this thread, in conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I read your contributions, to the point I at times pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said in this thread. Regards S?ma From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hello S'ma and venerable others, I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory being posed as a "grievance science," as if taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality" around the shoulders, etc. It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers. Still, to consider it analytically, Critical Theory by design is intended to uncover the ideologies by which certain social sciences have been taught and promulgated. It's de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable work from stripping off the veneer of power structures in order to analyze its underlying logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and reveals that privilege is usually not earned through merit. When considering relations of power, it's easy (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to name the powerless as "victims," but when this is done, it is only in an objection when victims call themselves victims, as if they have no right to do so. So who has the right to use this word "victim"? I feel there is a strange aura about the word that is likened to the word "masochistic" and it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my post here. Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are actual and legitimate victims. There seems intertwined in the meaning of the word something unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious, gaslighting, and these have results of its own harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult to injury"). Can no one use the word "victim" anymore? Frequently people use the word "survivor," which does have connotations of resilience and fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But when we consider the word "survivor" when used as the name of a reality game show (in the early naughts). where people choose to put themselves in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to overcome these circumstances by their wits, to then be "voted off the island" by the other "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism! I feel there is still something the word "survivor" leaves unspoken about the representation of a person who has been a target of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether intentionally or not. Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim" and found these: 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this: casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt, clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull, hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy, pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice, scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch. I did the same for the term survivor: 1. a person or thing that survives. 2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others. 3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. Synoymns: balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments, remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest, scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts The third definition seems the lest frequent usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning? It is odd to consider victims as designated parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be considered mere leftovers. Is it that the life energy of victims are like easily accessible batteries to be utilized for the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that what criminals do? To appropriate the property or energy of others for their own unearned benefit and advancement? Is that fitness or crime? t the same time to be a survivor seems to be something left less whole. What then would one call an individual or group who has been overpowered against their self-agency by another individual or group? Is there a word without these undertowing currents of meaning? We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just as no one likes to say "I have been victimized," "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by yours." And yet, these would be factual pronouncements, were legitimate individuals (victims) of those actual experiences to describe themselves in this fashion. Would it be no different than an individual saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society victimizes your society," or "My ancestors enslaved yours." The problem in making these sorts of statements is that while factual and descriptive, they can actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As if to say, "I did this and I can do it again because that's who I am." or "This happened to me and it can happen again because that's who I am." While there are people such as this Lindsay (I did not watch the video), who can throw about "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the same disdain to describe those who performed grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my estimation, whatever the words, it would be right and just they should provide that shadow of shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory is attempting to understand, without further empowering perpetrators and without further disempowering victims. Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to correct for the crime, that it somehow means justice cannot be performed? In a sort of "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the unpleasantness of the task? Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime? In the days of the American Wild West, justice was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is too slowly. This is why I wonder how to consider science when we are talking about power structures. What is scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it? Were we to describe the cause and effect of such power structures and their internal reasoning, it would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the promotion of eugenics. I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw many years ago, the name of the guest I don't remember. I only recall he was a politico for the George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say that it was an instruction booklet on how to create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant honesty was breathtaking. Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for the oppressor to say, "I have some self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of my ancestors, to make up for the injustices suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I see the errors of my ways." It feels there is no obligation for reconciliation because such folk percieve the cement of history has been poured and dried. "It's in the past, let's move on." There is something absurd about the tacit agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to sort out how it might be not to be so absurd sounding. Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this reflection? I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my reasoning, and of course the typos there above. Kind regards, Annalisa From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Simangele Mayisela > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. [EXTERNAL] Hi Andy and Alfredo Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about ?scientific? knowledge (in this case in relation to ?levels? of mental development and ?ideology?) and James Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this: Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call ?Grievance studies?, that perpetuates ?self-pity? and ?victim mentality?. They further went on to produce fake scientific study ?dog rape culture and feminism? known as ?hoax science? as evidence of how unscientific ?grievance studies? are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions ? my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about. The reason I brought up Lindsay?s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay?s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a ?scientist? holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of ?scientific evidence? ? who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have ?primitive mental functioning? or ?unsophisticated? mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a ?Trojan Horse?, that?s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of ?self-pity?, ?victim mentality?, unsophisticated mental functioning, ? (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed ?scientific tools?). My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about ?scientific? knowledge?. It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire?s ?Education for the Oppressed? to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for ?Education for the Depressed?, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity. Regards, Simangele simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: thanks S?ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice?a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as ?grievance studies??is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation! In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire?s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of ?critical social justice? books, which he defines as ?a codified way to indulge people into self pity??(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire?s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay?s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay?s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay?s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Hi Simangele, How are you evaluating ?level of mental functioning?? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela > wrote: Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the ?hypothesis? of the scientific question are the ?levels? of mental development which are associated to ?skin colour?, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the ?backwards? economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about ?what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?? with the aim to find evidence for the difference. Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is ?scientific?, ?rigorous scientific? and ?scholarship? vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view ? if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay?s argument on ideologies. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!Q88sWIpulN-Tc_a32FxAhCl08m4R_xnpaE9kFD-PeoDo-WfoKzV0ep9lNP7FG08JhSWGeA$ Regards S?ma From: Simangele Mayisela Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question. Dear Alfredo Thank you for taking my attention of ?level? which is crucial to rendering the question ?scientific?. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as ?high? and ?low? or ?superior? or ?inferior? would account for ?difference?. As much as the question to be asked should be about the ?ideological basis? , I think the ?hypothesis? is likely to be linked to the ?ideolody? as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas. Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ? Regards, S?ma -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q88sWIpulN-Tc_a32FxAhCl08m4R_xnpaE9kFD-PeoDo-WfoKzV0ep9lNP7FG08NfNcqkg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q88sWIpulN-Tc_a32FxAhCl08m4R_xnpaE9kFD-PeoDo-WfoKzV0ep9lNP7FG08NfNcqkg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens. --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q88sWIpulN-Tc_a32FxAhCl08m4R_xnpaE9kFD-PeoDo-WfoKzV0ep9lNP7FG08NfNcqkg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200706/78e7b295/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 145 bytes Desc: image001.png Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200706/78e7b295/attachment.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 134 bytes Desc: image009.png Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200706/78e7b295/attachment-0008.png From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Mon Jul 6 01:39:05 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 11:39:05 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Cuba against Covid-19 Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200706/e8bb2c44/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Diaz - Canel.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 188327 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200706/e8bb2c44/attachment.pdf From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Jul 7 20:53:38 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:53:38 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] A Gender Gap in CHAT Message-ID: "Politically correct" is really incorrect, politically. I don't just mean that it has long since gone from being an inside joke on the left to being a bugaboo-boogaloo of the right and now an excuse for the overt, shameless propagation of racist filth, even on this list. I mean that the issues we are discussing under this heading are often sub-political, or only very subtley political, and reducing them to political stance taking means ignoring their real roots: economic, social, and cultural. That's why I really resisted the idea that my graduate student can fight patriarchy by refusing to teach a lesson in which two boys arm wrestle for a trophy girlfriend. It really makes a lot more sense to trust in teachers to teach the lesson critically, and trust in learners to learn skeptically. Besides, what's the point of saving your own soul if it costs you the rest of the world? (There is a feminist novel making the rounds here in Korea that refers to sexual harrassment, marriage, childbirth and almost every imaginable form of gender gap and somehow manages not to refer to female desire at all--understandably, the kids prefer K-pop, even though some of the K-pop stars have actually started reading it!) I just read Perezhivanie, Emotions, and Subjectivity, which is the first volume of the Perspectives in Cultural Historical Research series that Nikolai and I are contributing to. There is much to commend, and even more to object to, but what really struck me is that we have a kind of gender gap within CHAT itself: the empirical classroom data is almost always supplied by younger women, and the theoretical, philosophical musings are heavily gendered towards older men. This tendency goes from the editors of the volume right down to the references and even the bibliography. Of course, this gender gap--our own gender gap--is a reflection of the societies that we live in (from the early USSR right up to our present day). Of course, the editors and the authors and even the learners in the volume are all doing what they can to overcome it in various ways. But instead of going away, it tends to create a noticeable gap between theory and praxis. there is always a slight rumble and grinding of gears, a jump cut, when the article switches from "Theoretical Background" to "Study". There is nothing quite comparable in, say, systemic functional linguistics. (Interestingly, systemic functional linguistics has a lot of intellectual "power couples", where both husband and wife are both theorists and practioners....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X2yy_83lDbgqTtDKl6EQm_VPddo4jocP4TDbY--02qSkAUMpyOSyWkVYnIRX4_dWtz5QLw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X2yy_83lDbgqTtDKl6EQm_VPddo4jocP4TDbY--02qSkAUMpyOSyWkVYnIRX4_cJdgJlIw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/a318d3d3/attachment.html From hans.knutagard@ingressus.se Wed Jul 8 01:23:56 2020 From: hans.knutagard@ingressus.se (=?utf-8?Q?Hans_Knutag=C3=A5rd?=) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 10:23:56 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity and personality Message-ID: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> Dear xmca, I am struggling between the notion of personality and identity in the framework of Chat. My understanding is that we cannot talk about identity only personality since it os required in relation to other people and environment. Can somebody help me with some reading or references I can dig into? Yours Hans From leah@labvanced.com Wed Jul 8 04:56:22 2020 From: leah@labvanced.com (Lee Leah) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:56:22 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Why do you choose Labvanced.com for your psychological research or user experience study? Message-ID: <2097331594209304@mail.yandex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/cf496b62/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Jul 8 06:18:24 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 23:18:24 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality In-Reply-To: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> Message-ID: I hope others will chime in with more answers for you, Hans, because this is actually a very complex question. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com.au/Identity-Agency-Cultural-Dorothy-Holland/dp/0674005627*22Identity__;JQ!!Mih3wA!XIQO3yYLAB1Akq-BjMwXNNcW2pGv4KGlt9xwLTRfoW-Pl-kqrneI2RnHjjp__h48IppqZg$ and Agency in Cultural Worlds" will have a lot helpful material for you. As I recall,in this book, Dorothy Holland explains that there are two basic answers to asking what is the "self." For some people it is a kind of inner core, for others it is something that grows and matures in interaction with the world, layers rather than an inner core. CHAT writers tend to answer for the second approach rather than the first. Add to this the difficulty in translating the word "personality" between Russian and English. There are not perfect matches. Even the Kantian "I" is a construct of development for CHAT and not some transcendental entity. Vygotsky and Leontyev are more like Hegel and Marx than Kant and Nietzsche. The following article of mine https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Leontyev*20and*20Social*20Theory.pdf__;JSUl!!Mih3wA!XIQO3yYLAB1Akq-BjMwXNNcW2pGv4KGlt9xwLTRfoW-Pl-kqrneI2RnHjjp__h7ubZU7cA$ looks at Leontyev's ideas, including his idea of "personality," and https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor*20Vasilyuk.pdf__;JQ!!Mih3wA!XIQO3yYLAB1Akq-BjMwXNNcW2pGv4KGlt9xwLTRfoW-Pl-kqrneI2RnHjjp__h5_RkHW3Q$ looks at Vasilyuk's Psychology which may also help shed light on Soviet approaches. Hope that helps. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 8/07/2020 6:23 pm, Hans Knutag?rd wrote: > Dear xmca, > > I am struggling between the notion of personality and identity in the framework of Chat. My understanding is that we cannot talk about identity only personality since it os required in relation to other people and environment. Can somebody help me with some reading or references I can dig into? > > Yours Hans > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/1149e7f0/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jul 8 08:51:07 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:51:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality In-Reply-To: References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se>, Message-ID: Hi Andy, Hans and venerable others, What is CHAT's explanation for what the "material" is of personality and identity? How does the body with its interactions in the world produce a mind that has a personality and an identity? And also, how does genetics (or nature) and biological inheritance play their roles according to CHAT? How is it possible for me to even utter, "This is my mind; this is my personality; this is my identity." Why do I say "my"? Why can I say "my?" I'm very curious to hear about that. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 7:18 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality [EXTERNAL] I hope others will chime in with more answers for you, Hans, because this is actually a very complex question. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com.au/Identity-Agency-Cultural-Dorothy-Holland/dp/0674005627__;!!Mih3wA!Qo69t_ZkdVJNPYzbHlUGCav74sUAFuPBjyj5t-cp1NfjZb6v1fwfmiQdhxxl7sn_g0KIYQ$ "Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds" will have a lot helpful material for you. As I recall, in this book, Dorothy Holland explains that there are two basic answers to asking what is the "self." For some people it is a kind of inner core, for others it is something that grows and matures in interaction with the world, layers rather than an inner core. CHAT writers tend to answer for the second approach rather than the first. Add to this the difficulty in translating the word "personality" between Russian and English. There are not perfect matches. Even the Kantian "I" is a construct of development for CHAT and not some transcendental entity. Vygotsky and Leontyev are more like Hegel and Marx than Kant and Nietzsche. The following article of mine https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Leontyev*20and*20Social*20Theory.pdf__;JSUl!!Mih3wA!Qo69t_ZkdVJNPYzbHlUGCav74sUAFuPBjyj5t-cp1NfjZb6v1fwfmiQdhxxl7sltaL8CxA$ looks at Leontyev's ideas, including his idea of "personality," and https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor*20Vasilyuk.pdf__;JQ!!Mih3wA!Qo69t_ZkdVJNPYzbHlUGCav74sUAFuPBjyj5t-cp1NfjZb6v1fwfmiQdhxxl7snIKBtv7A$ looks at Vasilyuk's Psychology which may also help shed light on Soviet approaches. Hope that helps. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 8/07/2020 6:23 pm, Hans Knutag?rd wrote: Dear xmca, I am struggling between the notion of personality and identity in the framework of Chat. My understanding is that we cannot talk about identity only personality since it os required in relation to other people and environment. Can somebody help me with some reading or references I can dig into? Yours Hans -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/a49b751e/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jul 8 08:55:18 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:55:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why do you choose Labvanced.com for your psychological research or user experience study? In-Reply-To: <2097331594209304@mail.yandex.com> References: <2097331594209304@mail.yandex.com> Message-ID: Not you again. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Lee Leah Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 5:56 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Why do you choose Labvanced.com for your psychological research or user experience study? [EXTERNAL] Hello everyone, Labvanced offers a very powerful platform that can be the best choice for you to host your psychological studies or your market research user experience study.Labvanced?s software platform has many state-of-the-art features : 1-Labvanced offers a graphical task builder and highly advanced experiment features. Temporal accuracy / RT measures are millisecond precise and spatial accuracy is pixel perfect. 2-We are open source and offer over 200 studies/templates in our open access library. 3-We offer any kind stimuli presentation and recording options, including audio and video. 4-We are fully mobile / touch compatible for smartphones and tablets. 5-We offer an own superior deep learning pipeline for webcam based eye tracking. 6-You can create/run real-time multi-participant experiments (e.g. economic games) 7-You can create ANY kind of experimental logic (IF/Else, Loops, Callbacks own JavaScript). 8-Using our Web-Socket API you can connect Labvanced with other devices in real time. 9-You can download and run Labvanced locally in your lab without internet access. All this functionality is built in to an intuitive study builder, so you can create all of that without writing a single line of code. Study creation is completely free and you can even record data for free, we are just limiting the amount per week, in the free tier. If you have any questions regarding study creation we have a great live chat and email support. Also, if any lab is interested to use our platform, we are happy to provide a free demo. I hope this can be of interest for some of you. Best regards, Leah Lee -- Labvanced - The intuitive cloud solution for online experiments Grunigerstr. 19 33102 Paderborn Germany phone: (+49) 5251-5449385 website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.labvanced.com__;!!Mih3wA!SaRPTP7wOY2vg3W5uyFX7qak9ftc2GWdtBBjGIbzza5FwZdM6dPiZk7cM0nNOGaVSibKJQ$ email: leah@labvanced.com Scicovery GmbH Amtsgericht Paderborn HRB 13448 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Caspar Goeke, Holger Finger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/994447b2/attachment.html From jamesma320@gmail.com Wed Jul 8 09:50:53 2020 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 17:50:53 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A Gender Gap in CHAT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21BA4BC4-44A2-41E5-938E-A7772A746820@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/0303d80d/attachment.html From Andrew.Coppens@unh.edu Wed Jul 8 10:35:58 2020 From: Andrew.Coppens@unh.edu (Coppens, Andrew) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 17:35:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality In-Reply-To: References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> Message-ID: <43189D87-5405-43F6-97B9-D6B2AA96A478@unh.edu> Hi Hans, I agree with Andy that this is a complex question. Some of the complexity comes from around 40 years of identity research in psychological/personality traditions, that significantly departs from Erikson?s (1964) writings in Identity: Youth and Crisis to develop a relatively strong individualistic and ahistorical view. In the wake of this tradition, technical terms for Erikson such as ?identity,? ?self,? ?ego,? etc. have vernacular connotations rooted in individualistic (American) psychological paradigms. Erikson explicitly and preemptively rejected much of the Marcia ?identity status? tradition, despite its later and continued prominence. For example: ?In emphasizing once more the complementarity of life history and history, I must register a certain impatience with the faddish equation, never suggested by me, of the term identity with the question ?Who am I?? This question nobody would ask himself except in a more or less transient morbid state, in a creative self-confrontation, or in an adolescent state sometimes combining both? The pertinent question, if it can be put into the first person at all, would be, ?What do I want to make of myself, and what do I have to work with??? (Erikson, 1964, p. 314) In the broader arc of Erikson?s writing in this book, ?who am I?? is recast as a historical and cultural question for particular communities and not a question inherent to identity work for everyone. See Matusov & Smith (2012) below on this point, and Arnett and many others on the historical and cultural specificity of adolescence as understood by many middle-class Western communities. In the rise of narrative (especially not autobiographical) approaches to identity research, some are returning to Erik Erikson?s writings with questions that many CHAT researchers would share. See this special issue from a couple of years ago: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hidn20/18/4__;!!Mih3wA!T1GxBRQD_InEjt5BrLAZkztiECqq0FnCOYfSz5dd9drWq3fYdv-M9NWbcQ_w2bjVofvBwg$ . Erikson was trying to unite sociology and clinical psychology, a means to an end aimed at historicizing the self in ways that are often compatible with CHAT?s efforts to historicize the mind. Colleagues and I are currently writing a paper that reads Erikson?s project as developing ?identity? not as an individual process or property, but as this sort of a historical unit of analysis, constituted in dialectically related personal biography and cultural history. Regretfully, we don?t yet have a draft that can be shared. I also suggest the following, and I am certainly overlooking many other relevant works: Matusov, E., & Smith, M. P. (2012). The middle-class nature of identity and its implications for education: A genealogical analysis and reevaluation of a culturally and historically bounded concept. Integrative Psychological and Behavioral Science, 46(3), 274?295. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s12124-012-9192-0__;!!Mih3wA!T1GxBRQD_InEjt5BrLAZkztiECqq0FnCOYfSz5dd9drWq3fYdv-M9NWbcQ_w2bhS7ENipQ$ Nasir, N. S., & Cooks, J. (2009). Becoming a Hurdler: How Learning Settings Afford Identities. Anthropology & Education Quarterly, 40(1), 41?61. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1548-1492.2009.01027.x__;!!Mih3wA!T1GxBRQD_InEjt5BrLAZkztiECqq0FnCOYfSz5dd9drWq3fYdv-M9NWbcQ_w2bjO6TaY3A$ Stetsenko, A. (2013). The Challenge of Individuality in Cultural Historical Activity Theory: ?Collectividual? Dialectics from a Transformative Activist Stance. Outlines: Critical Practice Studies, 14(2), 7?28. Stetsenko, A., & Arievitch, I. M. (2004). The self in cultural-historical activity theory: Reclaiming the unity of social and individual dimensions of human development. Theory & Psychology, 14(4), 475?503. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1177/0959354304044921__;!!Mih3wA!T1GxBRQD_InEjt5BrLAZkztiECqq0FnCOYfSz5dd9drWq3fYdv-M9NWbcQ_w2bhiBPcg5w$ V?gan, A. (2011). Towards a Sociocultural Perspective on Identity Formation in Education. Mind, Culture, and Activity, 18(1), 43?57. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1080/10749031003605839__;!!Mih3wA!T1GxBRQD_InEjt5BrLAZkztiECqq0FnCOYfSz5dd9drWq3fYdv-M9NWbcQ_w2bh-Y2SwbA$ Wenger, E. (1998). Communities of practice: Learning, meaning, and identity. Cambridge University Press. Happy to share these readings if you are behind a paywall, Hans. / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens From: on behalf of Andy Blunden Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 9:22 AM To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality I hope others will chime in with more answers for you, Hans, because this is actually a very complex question. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com.au/Identity-Agency-Cultural-Dorothy-Holland/dp/0674005627__;!!Mih3wA!T1GxBRQD_InEjt5BrLAZkztiECqq0FnCOYfSz5dd9drWq3fYdv-M9NWbcQ_w2bjhc3HMJg$ "Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds" will have a lot helpful material for you. As I recall, in this book, Dorothy Holland explains that there are two basic answers to asking what is the "self." For some people it is a kind of inner core, for others it is something that grows and matures in interaction with the world, layers rather than an inner core. CHAT writers tend to answer for the second approach rather than the first. Add to this the difficulty in translating the word "personality" between Russian and English. There are not perfect matches. Even the Kantian "I" is a construct of development for CHAT and not some transcendental entity. Vygotsky and Leontyev are more like Hegel and Marx than Kant and Nietzsche. The following article of mine https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Leontyev*20and*20Social*20Theory.pdf__;JSUl!!Mih3wA!T1GxBRQD_InEjt5BrLAZkztiECqq0FnCOYfSz5dd9drWq3fYdv-M9NWbcQ_w2biVLs7R_w$ looks at Leontyev's ideas, including his idea of "personality," and https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor*20Vasilyuk.pdf__;JQ!!Mih3wA!T1GxBRQD_InEjt5BrLAZkztiECqq0FnCOYfSz5dd9drWq3fYdv-M9NWbcQ_w2biG6ti94g$ looks at Vasilyuk's Psychology which may also help shed light on Soviet approaches. Hope that helps. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 8/07/2020 6:23 pm, Hans Knutag?rd wrote: Dear xmca, I am struggling between the notion of personality and identity in the framework of Chat. My understanding is that we cannot talk about identity only personality since it os required in relation to other people and environment. Can somebody help me with some reading or references I can dig into? Yours Hans -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/ccd0e7af/attachment.html From bjones@ucsd.edu Wed Jul 8 10:39:27 2020 From: bjones@ucsd.edu (Bruce Jones) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 10:39:27 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why do you choose Labvanced.com for your psychological research or user experience study? In-Reply-To: References: <2097331594209304@mail.yandex.com> Message-ID: <2feb4024-fea0-c552-40a1-b4320c6dff93@ucsd.edu> On 7/8/20 8:55 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Not you again. She is being notified and removed from the list, her address permanently blocked thereafter. -- Bruce Jones Sys Admin, LCHC bjones@ucsd.edu 619-823-8281 -- From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jul 8 13:21:20 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:21:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality In-Reply-To: <43189D87-5405-43F6-97B9-D6B2AA96A478@unh.edu> References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> , <43189D87-5405-43F6-97B9-D6B2AA96A478@unh.edu> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, I would be happy to receive a copy of these articles. In the name of fair use, would you please post them to the list? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Coppens, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 11:35 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality [EXTERNAL] Hi Hans, I agree with Andy that this is a complex question. Some of the complexity comes from around 40 years of identity research in psychological/personality traditions, that significantly departs from Erikson?s (1964) writings in Identity: Youth and Crisis to develop a relatively strong individualistic and ahistorical view. In the wake of this tradition, technical terms for Erikson such as ?identity,? ?self,? ?ego,? etc. have vernacular connotations rooted in individualistic (American) psychological paradigms. Erikson explicitly and preemptively rejected much of the Marcia ?identity status? tradition, despite its later and continued prominence. For example: ?In emphasizing once more the complementarity of life history and history, I must register a certain impatience with the faddish equation, never suggested by me, of the term identity with the question ?Who am I?? This question nobody would ask himself except in a more or less transient morbid state, in a creative self-confrontation, or in an adolescent state sometimes combining both? The pertinent question, if it can be put into the first person at all, would be, ?What do I want to make of myself, and what do I have to work with??? (Erikson, 1964, p. 314) In the broader arc of Erikson?s writing in this book, ?who am I?? is recast as a historical and cultural question for particular communities and not a question inherent to identity work for everyone. See Matusov & Smith (2012) below on this point, and Arnett and many others on the historical and cultural specificity of adolescence as understood by many middle-class Western communities. In the rise of narrative (especially not autobiographical) approaches to identity research, some are returning to Erik Erikson?s writings with questions that many CHAT researchers would share. See this special issue from a couple of years ago: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hidn20/18/4__;!!Mih3wA!UBD_6u0cEPDhA713zXRe5V0PHeBAmVlPJZ8dV1oYF3ifo-WH0u5wJun0DCB6Xns1w01IEw$ . Erikson was trying to unite sociology and clinical psychology, a means to an end aimed at historicizing the self in ways that are often compatible with CHAT?s efforts to historicize the mind. Colleagues and I are currently writing a paper that reads Erikson?s project as developing ?identity? not as an individual process or property, but as this sort of a historical unit of analysis, constituted in dialectically related personal biography and cultural history. Regretfully, we don?t yet have a draft that can be shared. I also suggest the following, and I am certainly overlooking many other relevant works: Matusov, E., & Smith, M. P. (2012). The middle-class nature of identity and its implications for education: A genealogical analysis and reevaluation of a culturally and historically bounded concept. Integrative Psychological and Behavioral Science, 46(3), 274?295. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s12124-012-9192-0__;!!Mih3wA!UBD_6u0cEPDhA713zXRe5V0PHeBAmVlPJZ8dV1oYF3ifo-WH0u5wJun0DCB6XntOFo_U_A$ Nasir, N. S., & Cooks, J. (2009). Becoming a Hurdler: How Learning Settings Afford Identities. Anthropology & Education Quarterly, 40(1), 41?61. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1548-1492.2009.01027.x__;!!Mih3wA!UBD_6u0cEPDhA713zXRe5V0PHeBAmVlPJZ8dV1oYF3ifo-WH0u5wJun0DCB6XntZMXMnIA$ Stetsenko, A. (2013). The Challenge of Individuality in Cultural Historical Activity Theory: ?Collectividual? Dialectics from a Transformative Activist Stance. Outlines: Critical Practice Studies, 14(2), 7?28. Stetsenko, A., & Arievitch, I. M. (2004). The self in cultural-historical activity theory: Reclaiming the unity of social and individual dimensions of human development. Theory & Psychology, 14(4), 475?503. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1177/0959354304044921__;!!Mih3wA!UBD_6u0cEPDhA713zXRe5V0PHeBAmVlPJZ8dV1oYF3ifo-WH0u5wJun0DCB6XnvuDSJ59A$ V?gan, A. (2011). Towards a Sociocultural Perspective on Identity Formation in Education. Mind, Culture, and Activity, 18(1), 43?57. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1080/10749031003605839__;!!Mih3wA!UBD_6u0cEPDhA713zXRe5V0PHeBAmVlPJZ8dV1oYF3ifo-WH0u5wJun0DCB6Xnv6gYOZRg$ Wenger, E. (1998). Communities of practice: Learning, meaning, and identity. Cambridge University Press. Happy to share these readings if you are behind a paywall, Hans. / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens From: on behalf of Andy Blunden Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 9:22 AM To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality I hope others will chime in with more answers for you, Hans, because this is actually a very complex question. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com.au/Identity-Agency-Cultural-Dorothy-Holland/dp/0674005627__;!!Mih3wA!UBD_6u0cEPDhA713zXRe5V0PHeBAmVlPJZ8dV1oYF3ifo-WH0u5wJun0DCB6XnsRTMnOIw$ "Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds" will have a lot helpful material for you. As I recall, in this book, Dorothy Holland explains that there are two basic answers to asking what is the "self." For some people it is a kind of inner core, for others it is something that grows and matures in interaction with the world, layers rather than an inner core. CHAT writers tend to answer for the second approach rather than the first. Add to this the difficulty in translating the word "personality" between Russian and English. There are not perfect matches. Even the Kantian "I" is a construct of development for CHAT and not some transcendental entity. Vygotsky and Leontyev are more like Hegel and Marx than Kant and Nietzsche. The following article of mine https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Leontyev*20and*20Social*20Theory.pdf__;JSUl!!Mih3wA!UBD_6u0cEPDhA713zXRe5V0PHeBAmVlPJZ8dV1oYF3ifo-WH0u5wJun0DCB6Xnu-FZPp9Q$ looks at Leontyev's ideas, including his idea of "personality," and https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor*20Vasilyuk.pdf__;JQ!!Mih3wA!UBD_6u0cEPDhA713zXRe5V0PHeBAmVlPJZ8dV1oYF3ifo-WH0u5wJun0DCB6Xnv_nxsSQQ$ looks at Vasilyuk's Psychology which may also help shed light on Soviet approaches. Hope that helps. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 8/07/2020 6:23 pm, Hans Knutag?rd wrote: Dear xmca, I am struggling between the notion of personality and identity in the framework of Chat. My understanding is that we cannot talk about identity only personality since it os required in relation to other people and environment. Can somebody help me with some reading or references I can dig into? Yours Hans -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/d4095367/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jul 8 13:43:13 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:43:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A Gender Gap in CHAT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David, and James, and others, Whatever the consensus is on what is and is not politically correct, what is really perhaps difficult to understand for some, which may even include myself, is what it means to grow up in a gendered community that casts hard-and-fast roles for which an individual does not feel at home adopting for oneself? In other words, in the scenario that David outlines to using arm-wrestling to win a trophy girlfriend as a learning exercise (in the way that he puts it) what if a boy does not want a girlfriend. What if a girl doesn't want two boys fighting over her. The narrative of gender is what is problematic in that exercise because it presumes a lot in the way a leading question "And sir, how many times do you beat your wife?" presumes. Even if we took the gender out, let's say, to tell two individuals they will complete in an arm wrestle to take a friend to the mall for an ice cream date, let's say, it just is really weird because why couldn't they all go together, why even compete like that? What is the importance of competing for resources when it is likely better to learn how to negotiate for and to learn how to share resources? This gendered narrative of two boys fighting for the attentions of a girl is as silly as centuries ago, men getting in suits of armor, mounting horses, and jousting at each other making one or the other a bloody mess, with the winner being seen as some sort of hero and who apparently boosts the gene pool by the killing off of the other, all based upon carrying a stick to knock the other contestant to the floor. Not sure how such a knight develops into a good father for offspring, nor how arm wrestling produces a more empathetic and curious young person. Perhaps it's hard to detect influences when we have been immersed for so long in them, making it difficult to detect how they impact our worldviews. The most subtle *can* have the largest impact. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 9:53 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] A Gender Gap in CHAT [EXTERNAL] "Politically correct" is really incorrect, politically. I don't just mean that it has long since gone from being an inside joke on the left to being a bugaboo-boogaloo of the right and now an excuse for the overt, shameless propagation of racist filth, even on this list. I mean that the issues we are discussing under this heading are often sub-political, or only very subtley political, and reducing them to political stance taking means ignoring their real roots: economic, social, and cultural. That's why I really resisted the idea that my graduate student can fight patriarchy by refusing to teach a lesson in which two boys arm wrestle for a trophy girlfriend. It really makes a lot more sense to trust in teachers to teach the lesson critically, and trust in learners to learn skeptically. Besides, what's the point of saving your own soul if it costs you the rest of the world? (There is a feminist novel making the rounds here in Korea that refers to sexual harrassment, marriage, childbirth and almost every imaginable form of gender gap and somehow manages not to refer to female desire at all--understandably, the kids prefer K-pop, even though some of the K-pop stars have actually started reading it!) I just read Perezhivanie, Emotions, and Subjectivity, which is the first volume of the Perspectives in Cultural Historical Research series that Nikolai and I are contributing to. There is much to commend, and even more to object to, but what really struck me is that we have a kind of gender gap within CHAT itself: the empirical classroom data is almost always supplied by younger women, and the theoretical, philosophical musings are heavily gendered towards older men. This tendency goes from the editors of the volume right down to the references and even the bibliography. Of course, this gender gap--our own gender gap--is a reflection of the societies that we live in (from the early USSR right up to our present day). Of course, the editors and the authors and even the learners in the volume are all doing what they can to overcome it in various ways. But instead of going away, it tends to create a noticeable gap between theory and praxis. there is always a slight rumble and grinding of gears, a jump cut, when the article switches from "Theoretical Background" to "Study". There is nothing quite comparable in, say, systemic functional linguistics. (Interestingly, systemic functional linguistics has a lot of intellectual "power couples", where both husband and wife are both theorists and practioners....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Trh03swFygF6ceszSW_t0pT5H-dduwTAWQVzqsVzVecrtiC0bIqyp1dHEptB6XR-ePbNxQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Trh03swFygF6ceszSW_t0pT5H-dduwTAWQVzqsVzVecrtiC0bIqyp1dHEptB6XQDRJH0Mw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/eaff1445/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Wed Jul 8 13:51:02 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 16:51:02 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] A practical request (re: memory development) Message-ID: Good afternoon ~ I come to you (as a parent and as a teacher) seeking advice and information, knowing this listserv is one of the best collective resources on the subject at hand. Thank you in advance for your thoughts . . . FIRST, here is the question: - If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from a disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? SECOND, here is the theory (and source) behind the question: - Vygotsky?s ?Law of 4 Stages? - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q3p7rz__;!!Mih3wA!XPc6MihE_2JAUm1FVECluRHB-fBm7usjC6m6SkGx3Gzr6clVrtOVLXXkggL7q-oW4gcVJg$ (also, cf. "The Problem of the Cultural Development of the Child") - In place of watching the (very good) 7-minute video, please refer to these two excerpts that richly capture the video?s gist: - From Clip 1 (?Vygotsky?s law of 4 stages?): - ?This is the law that says there are 4 stages of the development of every higher psychological function. It gives us a key to understanding: if something goes wrong with the child, if the child has a difficulty, maybe one of these stages didn?t go correctly. - Stage 1 - natural behavior (no use of signs) - Stage 2 - naive psychology (naive imitation) - Stage 3 - external signs and operations (beyond crude imitation but still reliant on external tools) - Stage 4 - internal signs and operations (internalized tools; decontextualized mediational means) - From Clip 2 (?How this law can help teachers and students"): - ?Put the child in specially created situations -- might be play, game, competition, whatever -- and introduce these tools he or she probably doesn?t have -- and then, having these internal tools, the child comes back to the class equipped with the tools, and now the task will be much easier for the child . . . because the tools are not related anymore to the concrete task (in which they were developed). They are universal.? With these assumptions in mind (and choosing to accept them at least for now), here is the question again: - If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from a disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? Sincere thanks, Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/437e7dc9/attachment.html From Andrew.Coppens@unh.edu Wed Jul 8 14:55:55 2020 From: Andrew.Coppens@unh.edu (Coppens, Andrew) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 21:55:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality In-Reply-To: References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> <43189D87-5405-43F6-97B9-D6B2AA96A478@unh.edu> Message-ID: <86B3E6DC-98C7-4525-AA0A-34B1DFEF74EA@unh.edu> Sure thing. They are here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.dropbox.com/sh/25ur8zs6q7f5fcq/AADDJaO1Xq7ZzpD_R068lmbda?dl=0__;!!Mih3wA!XjNCVY82Xv5WnPw45kPYGi8dwDfj-AkuEOowp5jSBGdV8aqw9T4DJZjEfnIzVcXXnPkNnA$ / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens From: on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 4:24 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality Hi Andrew, I would be happy to receive a copy of these articles. In the name of fair use, would you please post them to the list? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Coppens, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 11:35 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality [EXTERNAL] Hi Hans, I agree with Andy that this is a complex question. Some of the complexity comes from around 40 years of identity research in psychological/personality traditions, that significantly departs from Erikson?s (1964) writings in Identity: Youth and Crisis to develop a relatively strong individualistic and ahistorical view. In the wake of this tradition, technical terms for Erikson such as ?identity,? ?self,? ?ego,? etc. have vernacular connotations rooted in individualistic (American) psychological paradigms. Erikson explicitly and preemptively rejected much of the Marcia ?identity status? tradition, despite its later and continued prominence. For example: ?In emphasizing once more the complementarity of life history and history, I must register a certain impatience with the faddish equation, never suggested by me, of the term identity with the question ?Who am I?? This question nobody would ask himself except in a more or less transient morbid state, in a creative self-confrontation, or in an adolescent state sometimes combining both? The pertinent question, if it can be put into the first person at all, would be, ?What do I want to make of myself, and what do I have to work with??? (Erikson, 1964, p. 314) In the broader arc of Erikson?s writing in this book, ?who am I?? is recast as a historical and cultural question for particular communities and not a question inherent to identity work for everyone. See Matusov & Smith (2012) below on this point, and Arnett and many others on the historical and cultural specificity of adolescence as understood by many middle-class Western communities. In the rise of narrative (especially not autobiographical) approaches to identity research, some are returning to Erik Erikson?s writings with questions that many CHAT researchers would share. See this special issue from a couple of years ago: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hidn20/18/4__;!!Mih3wA!XjNCVY82Xv5WnPw45kPYGi8dwDfj-AkuEOowp5jSBGdV8aqw9T4DJZjEfnIzVcXifmGvtQ$ . Erikson was trying to unite sociology and clinical psychology, a means to an end aimed at historicizing the self in ways that are often compatible with CHAT?s efforts to historicize the mind. Colleagues and I are currently writing a paper that reads Erikson?s project as developing ?identity? not as an individual process or property, but as this sort of a historical unit of analysis, constituted in dialectically related personal biography and cultural history. Regretfully, we don?t yet have a draft that can be shared. I also suggest the following, and I am certainly overlooking many other relevant works: Matusov, E., & Smith, M. P. (2012). The middle-class nature of identity and its implications for education: A genealogical analysis and reevaluation of a culturally and historically bounded concept. Integrative Psychological and Behavioral Science, 46(3), 274?295. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s12124-012-9192-0__;!!Mih3wA!XjNCVY82Xv5WnPw45kPYGi8dwDfj-AkuEOowp5jSBGdV8aqw9T4DJZjEfnIzVcXMj0vppw$ Nasir, N. S., & Cooks, J. (2009). Becoming a Hurdler: How Learning Settings Afford Identities. Anthropology & Education Quarterly, 40(1), 41?61. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1548-1492.2009.01027.x__;!!Mih3wA!XjNCVY82Xv5WnPw45kPYGi8dwDfj-AkuEOowp5jSBGdV8aqw9T4DJZjEfnIzVcWpHOVNdw$ Stetsenko, A. (2013). The Challenge of Individuality in Cultural Historical Activity Theory: ?Collectividual? Dialectics from a Transformative Activist Stance. Outlines: Critical Practice Studies, 14(2), 7?28. Stetsenko, A., & Arievitch, I. M. (2004). The self in cultural-historical activity theory: Reclaiming the unity of social and individual dimensions of human development. Theory & Psychology, 14(4), 475?503. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1177/0959354304044921__;!!Mih3wA!XjNCVY82Xv5WnPw45kPYGi8dwDfj-AkuEOowp5jSBGdV8aqw9T4DJZjEfnIzVcViw3N5KA$ V?gan, A. (2011). Towards a Sociocultural Perspective on Identity Formation in Education. Mind, Culture, and Activity, 18(1), 43?57. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1080/10749031003605839__;!!Mih3wA!XjNCVY82Xv5WnPw45kPYGi8dwDfj-AkuEOowp5jSBGdV8aqw9T4DJZjEfnIzVcWKszfaxA$ Wenger, E. (1998). Communities of practice: Learning, meaning, and identity. Cambridge University Press. Happy to share these readings if you are behind a paywall, Hans. / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens From: on behalf of Andy Blunden Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 9:22 AM To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality I hope others will chime in with more answers for you, Hans, because this is actually a very complex question. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com.au/Identity-Agency-Cultural-Dorothy-Holland/dp/0674005627__;!!Mih3wA!XjNCVY82Xv5WnPw45kPYGi8dwDfj-AkuEOowp5jSBGdV8aqw9T4DJZjEfnIzVcUUwB2jGQ$ "Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds" will have a lot helpful material for you. As I recall, in this book, Dorothy Holland explains that there are two basic answers to asking what is the "self." For some people it is a kind of inner core, for others it is something that grows and matures in interaction with the world, layers rather than an inner core. CHAT writers tend to answer for the second approach rather than the first. Add to this the difficulty in translating the word "personality" between Russian and English. There are not perfect matches. Even the Kantian "I" is a construct of development for CHAT and not some transcendental entity. Vygotsky and Leontyev are more like Hegel and Marx than Kant and Nietzsche. The following article of mine https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Leontyev*20and*20Social*20Theory.pdf__;JSUl!!Mih3wA!XjNCVY82Xv5WnPw45kPYGi8dwDfj-AkuEOowp5jSBGdV8aqw9T4DJZjEfnIzVcUqViKNdw$ looks at Leontyev's ideas, including his idea of "personality," and https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor*20Vasilyuk.pdf__;JQ!!Mih3wA!XjNCVY82Xv5WnPw45kPYGi8dwDfj-AkuEOowp5jSBGdV8aqw9T4DJZjEfnIzVcVn_tfuFA$ looks at Vasilyuk's Psychology which may also help shed light on Soviet approaches. Hope that helps. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 8/07/2020 6:23 pm, Hans Knutag?rd wrote: Dear xmca, I am struggling between the notion of personality and identity in the framework of Chat. My understanding is that we cannot talk about identity only personality since it os required in relation to other people and environment. Can somebody help me with some reading or references I can dig into? Yours Hans -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/22d6d5fa/attachment-0001.html From wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com Wed Jul 8 15:07:24 2020 From: wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com (Wolff-Michael Roth) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:07:24 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality In-Reply-To: <86B3E6DC-98C7-4525-AA0A-34B1DFEF74EA@unh.edu> References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> <43189D87-5405-43F6-97B9-D6B2AA96A478@unh.edu> <86B3E6DC-98C7-4525-AA0A-34B1DFEF74EA@unh.edu> Message-ID: On identity from sociocultural and cultural-historical perspectives, we have had a number of things during the first decade of the century. In this MCA piece, the attempt is to approach the issue through the construct of identity: *Roth, W.-M.*, Tobin, K., Elmesky, R., Carambo, C., McKnight, Y., & Beers, J. (2004). Re/making identities in the praxis of urban schooling: A cultural historical perspective. Mind, Culture, & Activity, 11, 48-69. But there are problems, I think, from the cultural-historical perspective with the concept of identity, and thus in later work, I formulated the problem of the subject in terms of personality: *Roth, W.-M.* (2013). Activity, subjectification, and personality: Science education from a diversity of life perspective. In N. Mansour & R. Wegerif (Eds.), *Science education for diversity in knowledge society* (pp. 41?64). Dordrecht, The Netherlands: Springer. Another approach more suitable for a CHAT approach is through the category of experience (perezhivanie) *Roth, W.-M.* (2013). Activity, subjectification, and personality: Science education from a diversity of life perspective. In N. Mansour & R. Wegerif (Eds.), *Science education for diversity in knowledge society* (pp. 41?64). Dordrecht, The Netherlands: Springer. Michael *Roth, W.-M.*, & Tobin, K. (Eds.). (2007). *Science, learning, identity: Sociocultural and cultural historical perspectives*. Rotterdam, The Netherlands: Sense Publishers. *Roth, W.-M.*, Hwang, S., Lee, Y-J., & Goulart, M.I.M. (2005). *Participation, learning, and identity: Dialectical perspectives*. Berlin, Germany: Lehmanns Media. On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:58 PM Coppens, Andrew wrote: > Sure thing. They are here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.dropbox.com/sh/25ur8zs6q7f5fcq/AADDJaO1Xq7ZzpD_R068lmbda?dl=0__;!!Mih3wA!WsRPJqkd0QJi5HZIWivgL-jlWlUwwjBUTpz3-ECMnd_FAL0mNwLIl6Vmi580oc6wsH7D6w$ > > > > > / Andrew > > > > --- > > Andrew D. Coppens > > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens > > > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens > > > > > > > *From: * on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar < > annalisa@unm.edu> > *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 4:24 PM > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality > > > > > > Hi Andrew, > > > > I would be happy to receive a copy of these articles. In the name of fair > use, would you please post them to the list? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Coppens, Andrew > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 8, 2020 11:35 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality > > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > > Hi Hans, > > > > I agree with Andy that this is a complex question. Some of the complexity > comes from around 40 years of identity research in > psychological/personality traditions, that significantly departs from > Erikson?s (1964) writings in *Identity: Youth and Crisis* to develop a > relatively strong individualistic and ahistorical view. In the wake of this > tradition, technical terms for Erikson such as ?identity,? ?self,? ?ego,? > etc. have vernacular connotations rooted in individualistic (American) > psychological paradigms. Erikson explicitly and preemptively rejected much > of the Marcia ?identity status? tradition, despite its later and continued > prominence. For example: > > > > ?In emphasizing once more the complementarity of life history and history, > I must register a certain impatience with the faddish equation, never > suggested by me, of the term identity with the question ?Who am I?? This > question nobody would ask himself except in a more or less transient morbid > state, in a creative self-confrontation, or in an adolescent state > sometimes combining both? The pertinent question, if it can be put into the > first person at all, would be, ?What do I want to make of myself, and what > do I have to work with??? (Erikson, 1964, p. 314) > > > > In the broader arc of Erikson?s writing in this book, ?who am I?? is > recast as a historical and cultural question for particular communities and > not a question inherent to identity work for everyone. See Matusov & Smith > (2012) below on this point, and Arnett and many others on the historical > and cultural specificity of adolescence as understood by many middle-class > Western communities. > > > > In the rise of narrative (especially not autobiographical) approaches to > identity research, some are returning to Erik Erikson?s writings with > questions that many CHAT researchers would share. See this special issue > from a couple of years ago: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hidn20/18/4__;!!Mih3wA!WsRPJqkd0QJi5HZIWivgL-jlWlUwwjBUTpz3-ECMnd_FAL0mNwLIl6Vmi580oc4p3B9ejw$ > . > Erikson was trying to unite sociology and clinical psychology, a means to > an end aimed at historicizing the self in ways that are often compatible > with CHAT?s efforts to historicize the mind. Colleagues and I are currently > writing a paper that reads Erikson?s project as developing ?identity? not > as an individual process or property, but as this sort of a historical unit > of analysis, constituted in dialectically related personal biography and > cultural history. Regretfully, we don?t yet have a draft that can be shared. > > > > I also suggest the following, and I am certainly overlooking many other > relevant works: > > > > Matusov, E., & Smith, M. P. (2012). The middle-class nature of identity > and its implications for education: A genealogical analysis and > reevaluation of a culturally and historically bounded concept. *Integrative > Psychological and Behavioral Science*, *46*(3), 274?295. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s12124-012-9192-0__;!!Mih3wA!WsRPJqkd0QJi5HZIWivgL-jlWlUwwjBUTpz3-ECMnd_FAL0mNwLIl6Vmi580oc5ndj7fqw$ > > > > > Nasir, N. S., & Cooks, J. (2009). Becoming a Hurdler: How Learning > Settings Afford Identities. *Anthropology & Education Quarterly*, *40*(1), > 41?61. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1548-1492.2009.01027.x__;!!Mih3wA!WsRPJqkd0QJi5HZIWivgL-jlWlUwwjBUTpz3-ECMnd_FAL0mNwLIl6Vmi580oc4_icFu-Q$ > > > > > Stetsenko, A. (2013). The Challenge of Individuality in Cultural > Historical Activity Theory: ?Collectividual? Dialectics from a > Transformative Activist Stance. *Outlines: Critical Practice Studies*, > *14*(2), 7?28. > > > > Stetsenko, A., & Arievitch, I. M. (2004). The self in cultural-historical > activity theory: Reclaiming the unity of social and individual dimensions > of human development. *Theory & Psychology*, *14*(4), 475?503. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1177/0959354304044921__;!!Mih3wA!WsRPJqkd0QJi5HZIWivgL-jlWlUwwjBUTpz3-ECMnd_FAL0mNwLIl6Vmi580oc4FPOpwwA$ > > > > > V?gan, A. (2011). Towards a Sociocultural Perspective on Identity > Formation in Education. *Mind, Culture, and Activity*, *18*(1), 43?57. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1080/10749031003605839__;!!Mih3wA!WsRPJqkd0QJi5HZIWivgL-jlWlUwwjBUTpz3-ECMnd_FAL0mNwLIl6Vmi580oc6chm31RQ$ > > > > > Wenger, E. (1998). *Communities of practice: Learning, meaning, and > identity*. Cambridge University Press. > > > > Happy to share these readings if you are behind a paywall, Hans. > > > > / Andrew > > > > --- > > Andrew D. Coppens > > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens > > > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens > > > > > > > *From: * on behalf of Andy Blunden < > andyb@marxists.org> > *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 9:22 AM > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality > > > > I hope others will chime in with more answers for you, Hans, because this > is actually a very complex question. > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com.au/Identity-Agency-Cultural-Dorothy-Holland/dp/0674005627__;!!Mih3wA!WsRPJqkd0QJi5HZIWivgL-jlWlUwwjBUTpz3-ECMnd_FAL0mNwLIl6Vmi580oc6AT0wnsg$ > > "Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds" will have a lot helpful material > for you. As I recall, in this book, Dorothy Holland explains that there > are two basic answers to asking what is the "self." For some people it is a > kind of inner core, for others it is something that grows and matures in > interaction with the world, layers rather than an inner core. CHAT writers > tend to answer for the second approach rather than the first. > > Add to this the difficulty in translating the word "personality" between > Russian and English. There are not perfect matches. Even the Kantian "I" is > a construct of development for CHAT and not some transcendental entity. > Vygotsky and Leontyev are more like Hegel and Marx than Kant and Nietzsche. > > The following article of mine > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Leontyev*20and*20Social*20Theory.pdf__;JSUl!!Mih3wA!WsRPJqkd0QJi5HZIWivgL-jlWlUwwjBUTpz3-ECMnd_FAL0mNwLIl6Vmi580oc5r-ljH6g$ > > looks at Leontyev's ideas, including his idea of "personality," and > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor*20Vasilyuk.pdf__;JQ!!Mih3wA!WsRPJqkd0QJi5HZIWivgL-jlWlUwwjBUTpz3-ECMnd_FAL0mNwLIl6Vmi580oc7MJCiZPw$ > > looks at Vasilyuk's Psychology which may also help shed light on Soviet > approaches. > > Hope that helps. > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 8/07/2020 6:23 pm, Hans Knutag?rd wrote: > > Dear xmca, > > > > I am struggling between the notion of personality and identity in the framework of Chat. My understanding is that we cannot talk about identity only personality since it os required in relation to other people and environment. Can somebody help me with some reading or references I can dig into? > > > > Yours Hans > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/d23069fb/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jul 8 17:23:28 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 00:23:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality In-Reply-To: References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> <43189D87-5405-43F6-97B9-D6B2AA96A478@unh.edu> <86B3E6DC-98C7-4525-AA0A-34B1DFEF74EA@unh.edu>, Message-ID: Hi Wollf-Michael, I would not mind to read your articles. As I asked Andrew, would you be willing to share your suggested articles to the list? Thank you ! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Wolff-Michael Roth Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 4:07 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality [EXTERNAL] On identity from sociocultural and cultural-historical perspectives, we have had a number of things during the first decade of the century. In this MCA piece, the attempt is to approach the issue through the construct of identity: Roth, W.-M., Tobin, K., Elmesky, R., Carambo, C., McKnight, Y., & Beers, J. (2004). Re/making identities in the praxis of urban schooling: A cultural historical perspective. Mind, Culture, & Activity, 11, 48-69. But there are problems, I think, from the cultural-historical perspective with the concept of identity, and thus in later work, I formulated the problem of the subject in terms of personality: Roth, W.-M. (2013). Activity, subjectification, and personality: Science education from a diversity of life perspective. In N. Mansour & R. Wegerif (Eds.), Science education for diversity in knowledge society (pp. 41?64). Dordrecht, The Netherlands: Springer. Another approach more suitable for a CHAT approach is through the category of experience (perezhivanie) Roth, W.-M. (2013). Activity, subjectification, and personality: Science education from a diversity of life perspective. In N. Mansour & R. Wegerif (Eds.), Science education for diversity in knowledge society (pp. 41?64). Dordrecht, The Netherlands: Springer. Michael Roth, W.-M., & Tobin, K. (Eds.). (2007). Science, learning, identity: Sociocultural and cultural historical perspectives. Rotterdam, The Netherlands: Sense Publishers. Roth, W.-M., Hwang, S., Lee, Y-J., & Goulart, M.I.M. (2005). Participation, learning, and identity: Dialectical perspectives. Berlin, Germany: Lehmanns Media. On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:58 PM Coppens, Andrew > wrote: Sure thing. They are here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.dropbox.com/sh/25ur8zs6q7f5fcq/AADDJaO1Xq7ZzpD_R068lmbda?dl=0__;!!Mih3wA!UzBJN9kbJO_g3SNhTsGvDyvYr13740ka8fyjsggqzMTzPq3pYnQI6Rq-MixpO19PrOIcAw$ / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens From: > on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 4:24 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality Hi Andrew, I would be happy to receive a copy of these articles. In the name of fair use, would you please post them to the list? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Coppens, Andrew > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 11:35 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality [EXTERNAL] Hi Hans, I agree with Andy that this is a complex question. Some of the complexity comes from around 40 years of identity research in psychological/personality traditions, that significantly departs from Erikson?s (1964) writings in Identity: Youth and Crisis to develop a relatively strong individualistic and ahistorical view. In the wake of this tradition, technical terms for Erikson such as ?identity,? ?self,? ?ego,? etc. have vernacular connotations rooted in individualistic (American) psychological paradigms. Erikson explicitly and preemptively rejected much of the Marcia ?identity status? tradition, despite its later and continued prominence. For example: ?In emphasizing once more the complementarity of life history and history, I must register a certain impatience with the faddish equation, never suggested by me, of the term identity with the question ?Who am I?? This question nobody would ask himself except in a more or less transient morbid state, in a creative self-confrontation, or in an adolescent state sometimes combining both? The pertinent question, if it can be put into the first person at all, would be, ?What do I want to make of myself, and what do I have to work with??? (Erikson, 1964, p. 314) In the broader arc of Erikson?s writing in this book, ?who am I?? is recast as a historical and cultural question for particular communities and not a question inherent to identity work for everyone. See Matusov & Smith (2012) below on this point, and Arnett and many others on the historical and cultural specificity of adolescence as understood by many middle-class Western communities. In the rise of narrative (especially not autobiographical) approaches to identity research, some are returning to Erik Erikson?s writings with questions that many CHAT researchers would share. See this special issue from a couple of years ago: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hidn20/18/4__;!!Mih3wA!UzBJN9kbJO_g3SNhTsGvDyvYr13740ka8fyjsggqzMTzPq3pYnQI6Rq-MixpO18sZrzjvw$ . Erikson was trying to unite sociology and clinical psychology, a means to an end aimed at historicizing the self in ways that are often compatible with CHAT?s efforts to historicize the mind. Colleagues and I are currently writing a paper that reads Erikson?s project as developing ?identity? not as an individual process or property, but as this sort of a historical unit of analysis, constituted in dialectically related personal biography and cultural history. Regretfully, we don?t yet have a draft that can be shared. I also suggest the following, and I am certainly overlooking many other relevant works: Matusov, E., & Smith, M. P. (2012). The middle-class nature of identity and its implications for education: A genealogical analysis and reevaluation of a culturally and historically bounded concept. Integrative Psychological and Behavioral Science, 46(3), 274?295. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s12124-012-9192-0__;!!Mih3wA!UzBJN9kbJO_g3SNhTsGvDyvYr13740ka8fyjsggqzMTzPq3pYnQI6Rq-MixpO19hS7BPcA$ Nasir, N. S., & Cooks, J. (2009). Becoming a Hurdler: How Learning Settings Afford Identities. Anthropology & Education Quarterly, 40(1), 41?61. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1548-1492.2009.01027.x__;!!Mih3wA!UzBJN9kbJO_g3SNhTsGvDyvYr13740ka8fyjsggqzMTzPq3pYnQI6Rq-MixpO19BBZoBWg$ Stetsenko, A. (2013). The Challenge of Individuality in Cultural Historical Activity Theory: ?Collectividual? Dialectics from a Transformative Activist Stance. Outlines: Critical Practice Studies, 14(2), 7?28. Stetsenko, A., & Arievitch, I. M. (2004). The self in cultural-historical activity theory: Reclaiming the unity of social and individual dimensions of human development. Theory & Psychology, 14(4), 475?503. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1177/0959354304044921__;!!Mih3wA!UzBJN9kbJO_g3SNhTsGvDyvYr13740ka8fyjsggqzMTzPq3pYnQI6Rq-MixpO1-M4NAwaw$ V?gan, A. (2011). Towards a Sociocultural Perspective on Identity Formation in Education. Mind, Culture, and Activity, 18(1), 43?57. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1080/10749031003605839__;!!Mih3wA!UzBJN9kbJO_g3SNhTsGvDyvYr13740ka8fyjsggqzMTzPq3pYnQI6Rq-MixpO1-wTsatHA$ Wenger, E. (1998). Communities of practice: Learning, meaning, and identity. Cambridge University Press. Happy to share these readings if you are behind a paywall, Hans. / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 9:22 AM To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality I hope others will chime in with more answers for you, Hans, because this is actually a very complex question. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com.au/Identity-Agency-Cultural-Dorothy-Holland/dp/0674005627__;!!Mih3wA!UzBJN9kbJO_g3SNhTsGvDyvYr13740ka8fyjsggqzMTzPq3pYnQI6Rq-MixpO1-dExQCsg$ "Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds" will have a lot helpful material for you. As I recall, in this book, Dorothy Holland explains that there are two basic answers to asking what is the "self." For some people it is a kind of inner core, for others it is something that grows and matures in interaction with the world, layers rather than an inner core. CHAT writers tend to answer for the second approach rather than the first. Add to this the difficulty in translating the word "personality" between Russian and English. There are not perfect matches. Even the Kantian "I" is a construct of development for CHAT and not some transcendental entity. Vygotsky and Leontyev are more like Hegel and Marx than Kant and Nietzsche. The following article of mine https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Leontyev*20and*20Social*20Theory.pdf__;JSUl!!Mih3wA!UzBJN9kbJO_g3SNhTsGvDyvYr13740ka8fyjsggqzMTzPq3pYnQI6Rq-MixpO18Q2fy5Ew$ looks at Leontyev's ideas, including his idea of "personality," and https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor*20Vasilyuk.pdf__;JQ!!Mih3wA!UzBJN9kbJO_g3SNhTsGvDyvYr13740ka8fyjsggqzMTzPq3pYnQI6Rq-MixpO1-lrNQmvg$ looks at Vasilyuk's Psychology which may also help shed light on Soviet approaches. Hope that helps. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 8/07/2020 6:23 pm, Hans Knutag?rd wrote: Dear xmca, I am struggling between the notion of personality and identity in the framework of Chat. My understanding is that we cannot talk about identity only personality since it os required in relation to other people and environment. Can somebody help me with some reading or references I can dig into? Yours Hans -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/74719901/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jul 8 18:18:23 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 10:18:23 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A practical request (re: memory development) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anthony-- I'm conflicted. I am working on a "Capstone Design" class preparing sex education materials. It's pretty interesting stuff, because for the first time in the child's life the child is experiencing "perizhivanie" which has CONCEPTUAL content without any EXPERIENTIAL content. To me, this suggests a change in ALL psychological functions: affective perception (obviously), attention (as an immediate result) and memory (which ipso facto cannot play the same role in creating generalized representations that it once did), Now, the materials that the Gyeonggi-do provincial government developed teach AIDS/HIV prevention with something I would basically call a multiple choice/true false test. You give the child a dozen different ways in which people interact (going to the Korean sauna together, sharing chopsticks, kissing, sitting on an unwiped toilet seat, etc.) and the child has to choose the only two which actually do spread AIDS (sharing needles and having unproteced sex). This is an example of what I would call "backwash"--you start out with the test, which is essentially diagnostic and not pedagogical in design. You then work backwards. And because we all like to take the fastest and most direct route to the object, you end up teaching to the test. Which is, almost by definition, bad teaching. I'm afraid I see some of this in Nikolai's lecture. He starts out (as he often does) with a very useful distinction between tools for research and tools for pedagogy (or, in the instance of perizhivanie, between tools for research and tools for thinking about research). But in his natural enthusiasm for research there is a bit of backwash--towards making what are essentially ANALYTICAL stages into PEDAGOGICAL ones. Vygotsky derives his four stages (in T&S and also in Chapter 5 of HDHMF) from Buhler. Buhler tells us that there are three historical stages of human behavior (unconditional instincts, conditional habits, creative intelligence) and he thinks these will be useful in analyzing childhood into periods. Vygotsky agrees, but he points out that free will is none of these (think of sexual consent, and you will see--it is a higher form of behavior that owes very little to instinct, habit, or even creativity and is in some ways inimical to all three). Vygotsky also points out that ALL of these forms (including free will) are present right there in infancy, so using the to analyze childhood will involve analyzing each period that way and not simply assigning behaviors to age periods one to one. All of this suggests to me that natural memory (an instinct), naive memory (a conditional habit), external-sign-memory (creative intelligence) and "vraschivaniye" (free memory) are analytical tools and not pedagogical ones. But what would a pedagogy informed by this mean? I don't know. I think it would first of all have to be age-period-sensitive. A ten year old is after the Crisis at Seven and before the Crisis at Thirteen. The memories in question ARE experiential (they are not fantasies); they are generalized representations (e.g. chain-like narratives, diffuse complexes like family trees, and above all pseudoconcepts). Here are some activities I have used. CHAINS: You play ???? a well known word game in Korean. Round One is when each player offers a two-syllable word, repeating the the last syllable of the previous word and then adding a new syllable. In English it might go something like this: "Monday-->Daytime-->Timely--"Lytic--"Tick-tock"--"toxin"--"inform".... Round Two is when you try to remember as many of the words as you can in the form of a story. "On Monday, during the daytime, I chose a timely moment to read Leontiev's definition of lytic periods in child development and try to apply them to Sarah Cooper's impersonations of Donald Trump on Tick-tock, but the toxic masculinity which informed....etc." DIFFUSE COMPLEXES: In Korea, we do "??" offerings to four generations in the patrilineal line. Suppose you also want to honor your maternal ancestors. Can you remember anything about them? Their places of birth and death? What would a family history in the matrilineal line look like? Where would it begin and where would it end? PSEUDOCONCEPTS: This is a version of the "why" game that eight year old children sometimes play. You start out with a simple fact, like "Kids eat food". You ask why. "Because they are hungry". You ask why. etc. You then ask the child to distinguish between different kinds of "because". Another version of this involves asking the child to create an autobiography, starting with the cover and the LAST chapter, then the penulitmate one, then the one before that, etc. and then asking how they are causally related (I usually ask the kids to do this photographs if they are too young....) (Mutatis mutandis...as you can see, it's sex education all the way down!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VuYDft0oMGAM9qY8EcRo06LVSNymMSpaDqYioRUquNkHbecO40qUVxiIBz7uouo2Dj05uQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VuYDft0oMGAM9qY8EcRo06LVSNymMSpaDqYioRUquNkHbecO40qUVxiIBz7uourLKiFoUw$ On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra wrote: > Good afternoon ~ > > I come to you (as a parent and as a teacher) seeking advice and > information, knowing this listserv is one of the best collective resources > on the subject at hand. Thank you in advance for your thoughts . . . > > FIRST, here is the question: > > - > > If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from a > disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher > psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) > developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase > the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? > > > SECOND, here is the theory (and source) behind the question: > > - > > Vygotsky?s ?Law of 4 Stages? - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q3p7rz__;!!Mih3wA!VuYDft0oMGAM9qY8EcRo06LVSNymMSpaDqYioRUquNkHbecO40qUVxiIBz7uourC1dRFOQ$ > > (also, cf. "The Problem of the Cultural Development of the Child") > - > > In place of watching the (very good) 7-minute video, please refer to > these two excerpts that richly capture the video?s gist: > - > > From Clip 1 (?Vygotsky?s law of 4 stages?): > - > > ?This is the law that says there are 4 stages of the development > of every higher psychological function. It gives us a key to understanding: > if something goes wrong with the child, if the child has a difficulty, > maybe one of these stages didn?t go correctly. > - > > Stage 1 - natural behavior (no use of signs) > - > > Stage 2 - naive psychology (naive imitation) > - > > Stage 3 - external signs and operations (beyond crude > imitation but still reliant on external tools) > - > > Stage 4 - internal signs and operations (internalized tools; > decontextualized mediational means) > - > > From Clip 2 (?How this law can help teachers and students"): > - > > ?Put the child in specially created situations -- might be play, > game, competition, whatever -- and introduce these tools he or she probably > doesn?t have -- and then, having these internal tools, the child comes back > to the class equipped with the tools, and now the task will be much easier > for the child . . . because the tools are not related anymore to the > concrete task (in which they were developed). They are universal.? > > > With these assumptions in mind (and choosing to accept them at least for > now), here is the question again: > > - > > If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from a > disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher > psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) > developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase > the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? > > > Sincere thanks, > > Anthony > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/e2bec074/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jul 8 20:12:42 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:12:42 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A practical request (re: memory development) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I were seeking professional information a child I was concerned about for the reasons relate, Anthony, and I was interested in how a cultural-historical psychologist thinks about such matters, I would check the work of Tatiana Akhutina whose writings can be found on Academia. mike On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Anthony-- > > I'm conflicted. > > I am working on a "Capstone Design" class preparing sex education > materials. It's pretty interesting stuff, because for the first time in the > child's life the child is experiencing "perizhivanie" which has CONCEPTUAL > content without any EXPERIENTIAL content. To me, this suggests a change in > ALL psychological functions: affective perception (obviously), attention > (as an immediate result) and memory (which ipso facto cannot play the same > role in creating generalized representations that it once did), > > Now, the materials that the Gyeonggi-do provincial government developed > teach AIDS/HIV prevention with something I would basically call a multiple > choice/true false test. You give the child a dozen different ways in which > people interact (going to the Korean sauna together, sharing chopsticks, > kissing, sitting on an unwiped toilet seat, etc.) and the child has to > choose the only two which actually do spread AIDS (sharing needles and > having unproteced sex). This is an example of what I would call > "backwash"--you start out with the test, which is essentially > diagnostic and not pedagogical in design. You then work backwards. And > because we all like to take the fastest and most direct route to the > object, you end up teaching to the test. Which is, almost by definition, > bad teaching. > > I'm afraid I see some of this in Nikolai's lecture. He starts out (as he > often does) with a very useful distinction between tools for research and > tools for pedagogy (or, in the instance of perizhivanie, between tools for > research and tools for thinking about research). But in his natural > enthusiasm for research there is a bit of backwash--towards making what are > essentially ANALYTICAL stages into PEDAGOGICAL ones. > > Vygotsky derives his four stages (in T&S and also in Chapter 5 of HDHMF) > from Buhler. Buhler tells us that there are three historical stages of > human behavior (unconditional instincts, conditional habits, creative > intelligence) and he thinks these will be useful in analyzing childhood > into periods. Vygotsky agrees, but he points out that free will is none of > these (think of sexual consent, and you will see--it is a higher form of > behavior that owes very little to instinct, habit, or even creativity and > is in some ways inimical to all three). Vygotsky also points out that ALL > of these forms (including free will) are present right there in infancy, so > using the to analyze childhood will involve analyzing each period that way > and not simply assigning behaviors to age periods one to one. All of this > suggests to me that natural memory (an instinct), naive memory (a > conditional habit), external-sign-memory (creative intelligence) and > "vraschivaniye" (free memory) are analytical tools and not pedagogical ones. > > But what would a pedagogy informed by this mean? I don't know. I think it > would first of all have to be age-period-sensitive. A ten year old is after > the Crisis at Seven and before the Crisis at Thirteen. The memories in > question ARE experiential (they are not fantasies); they are generalized > representations (e.g. chain-like narratives, diffuse complexes like family > trees, and above all pseudoconcepts). Here are some activities I have used. > > CHAINS: You play ???? a well known word game in Korean. Round One is when > each player offers a two-syllable word, repeating the the last syllable of > the previous word and then adding a new syllable. In English it might go > something like this: > "Monday-->Daytime-->Timely--"Lytic--"Tick-tock"--"toxin"--"inform".... > Round Two is when you try to remember as many of the words as you can in > the form of a story. "On Monday, during the daytime, I chose a timely > moment to read Leontiev's definition of lytic periods in child development > and try to apply them to Sarah Cooper's impersonations of Donald Trump on > Tick-tock, but the toxic masculinity which informed....etc." > > DIFFUSE COMPLEXES: In Korea, we do "??" offerings to four generations in > the patrilineal line. Suppose you also want to honor your maternal > ancestors. Can you remember anything about them? Their places of birth and > death? What would a family history in the matrilineal line look like? > Where would it begin and where would it end? > > PSEUDOCONCEPTS: This is a version of the "why" game that eight year old > children sometimes play. You start out with a simple fact, like "Kids eat > food". You ask why. "Because they are hungry". You ask why. etc. You then > ask the child to distinguish between different kinds of "because". Another > version of this involves asking the child to create an autobiography, > starting with the cover and the LAST chapter, then the penulitmate one, > then the one before that, etc. and then asking how they are causally > related (I usually ask the kids to do this photographs if they are too > young....) > > (Mutatis mutandis...as you can see, it's sex education all the way down!) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TKR7XIT3zeJIzwF2x4xUdMGsgKy616QkR_CM7-IaU5uu7KiU0O5fbGIrmaEfyeqWsYeYuA$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TKR7XIT3zeJIzwF2x4xUdMGsgKy616QkR_CM7-IaU5uu7KiU0O5fbGIrmaEfyepLw8EHOQ$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Good afternoon ~ >> >> I come to you (as a parent and as a teacher) seeking advice and >> information, knowing this listserv is one of the best collective resources >> on the subject at hand. Thank you in advance for your thoughts . . . >> >> FIRST, here is the question: >> >> - >> >> If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from >> a disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher >> psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) >> developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase >> the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? >> >> >> SECOND, here is the theory (and source) behind the question: >> >> - >> >> Vygotsky?s ?Law of 4 Stages? - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q3p7rz__;!!Mih3wA!TKR7XIT3zeJIzwF2x4xUdMGsgKy616QkR_CM7-IaU5uu7KiU0O5fbGIrmaEfyervDcg9Jw$ >> >> (also, cf. "The Problem of the Cultural Development of the Child") >> - >> >> In place of watching the (very good) 7-minute video, please refer to >> these two excerpts that richly capture the video?s gist: >> - >> >> From Clip 1 (?Vygotsky?s law of 4 stages?): >> - >> >> ?This is the law that says there are 4 stages of the >> development of every higher psychological function. It gives us a key to >> understanding: if something goes wrong with the child, if the child has a >> difficulty, maybe one of these stages didn?t go correctly. >> - >> >> Stage 1 - natural behavior (no use of signs) >> - >> >> Stage 2 - naive psychology (naive imitation) >> - >> >> Stage 3 - external signs and operations (beyond crude >> imitation but still reliant on external tools) >> - >> >> Stage 4 - internal signs and operations (internalized tools; >> decontextualized mediational means) >> - >> >> From Clip 2 (?How this law can help teachers and students"): >> - >> >> ?Put the child in specially created situations -- might be >> play, game, competition, whatever -- and introduce these tools he or she >> probably doesn?t have -- and then, having these internal tools, the child >> comes back to the class equipped with the tools, and now the task will be >> much easier for the child . . . because the tools are not related anymore >> to the concrete task (in which they were developed). They are universal.? >> >> >> With these assumptions in mind (and choosing to accept them at least for >> now), here is the question again: >> >> - >> >> If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from >> a disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher >> psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) >> developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase >> the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? >> >> >> Sincere thanks, >> >> Anthony >> >> -- It is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai Proverb --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TKR7XIT3zeJIzwF2x4xUdMGsgKy616QkR_CM7-IaU5uu7KiU0O5fbGIrmaEfyepyL0WZRg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200708/451b4ce9/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Wed Jul 8 21:13:51 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 09:43:51 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A practical request (re: memory development) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I am not much aware and experience with the subject matter under discussion.... however i share one observation that i have noted in the journey of my life and i hope you might have also. The memory power has strong link with our self interest in the subject matter. If parent/teacher make the subject matter very interesting for the kids, and get their interest tempted in the issue..... the kids / students grasps the same immediately and that too for a long time also. Regards, Harshad Dave On Thu, 9 Jul 2020, 08:45 mike cole, wrote: > If I were seeking professional information a child I was concerned about > for the reasons > relate, Anthony, and I was interested in how a cultural-historical > psychologist thinks about > such matters, I would check the work of Tatiana Akhutina whose writings > can be found on > Academia. > mike > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg wrote: > >> Anthony-- >> >> I'm conflicted. >> >> I am working on a "Capstone Design" class preparing sex education >> materials. It's pretty interesting stuff, because for the first time in the >> child's life the child is experiencing "perizhivanie" which has CONCEPTUAL >> content without any EXPERIENTIAL content. To me, this suggests a change in >> ALL psychological functions: affective perception (obviously), attention >> (as an immediate result) and memory (which ipso facto cannot play the same >> role in creating generalized representations that it once did), >> >> Now, the materials that the Gyeonggi-do provincial government developed >> teach AIDS/HIV prevention with something I would basically call a multiple >> choice/true false test. You give the child a dozen different ways in which >> people interact (going to the Korean sauna together, sharing chopsticks, >> kissing, sitting on an unwiped toilet seat, etc.) and the child has to >> choose the only two which actually do spread AIDS (sharing needles and >> having unproteced sex). This is an example of what I would call >> "backwash"--you start out with the test, which is essentially >> diagnostic and not pedagogical in design. You then work backwards. And >> because we all like to take the fastest and most direct route to the >> object, you end up teaching to the test. Which is, almost by definition, >> bad teaching. >> >> I'm afraid I see some of this in Nikolai's lecture. He starts out (as he >> often does) with a very useful distinction between tools for research and >> tools for pedagogy (or, in the instance of perizhivanie, between tools for >> research and tools for thinking about research). But in his natural >> enthusiasm for research there is a bit of backwash--towards making what are >> essentially ANALYTICAL stages into PEDAGOGICAL ones. >> >> Vygotsky derives his four stages (in T&S and also in Chapter 5 of HDHMF) >> from Buhler. Buhler tells us that there are three historical stages of >> human behavior (unconditional instincts, conditional habits, creative >> intelligence) and he thinks these will be useful in analyzing childhood >> into periods. Vygotsky agrees, but he points out that free will is none of >> these (think of sexual consent, and you will see--it is a higher form of >> behavior that owes very little to instinct, habit, or even creativity and >> is in some ways inimical to all three). Vygotsky also points out that ALL >> of these forms (including free will) are present right there in infancy, so >> using the to analyze childhood will involve analyzing each period that way >> and not simply assigning behaviors to age periods one to one. All of this >> suggests to me that natural memory (an instinct), naive memory (a >> conditional habit), external-sign-memory (creative intelligence) and >> "vraschivaniye" (free memory) are analytical tools and not pedagogical ones. >> >> But what would a pedagogy informed by this mean? I don't know. I think it >> would first of all have to be age-period-sensitive. A ten year old is after >> the Crisis at Seven and before the Crisis at Thirteen. The memories in >> question ARE experiential (they are not fantasies); they are generalized >> representations (e.g. chain-like narratives, diffuse complexes like family >> trees, and above all pseudoconcepts). Here are some activities I have used. >> >> CHAINS: You play ???? a well known word game in Korean. Round One is >> when each player offers a two-syllable word, repeating the the >> last syllable of the previous word and then adding a new syllable. In >> English it might go something like this: >> "Monday-->Daytime-->Timely--"Lytic--"Tick-tock"--"toxin"--"inform".... >> Round Two is when you try to remember as many of the words as you can in >> the form of a story. "On Monday, during the daytime, I chose a timely >> moment to read Leontiev's definition of lytic periods in child development >> and try to apply them to Sarah Cooper's impersonations of Donald Trump on >> Tick-tock, but the toxic masculinity which informed....etc." >> >> DIFFUSE COMPLEXES: In Korea, we do "??" offerings to four generations in >> the patrilineal line. Suppose you also want to honor your maternal >> ancestors. Can you remember anything about them? Their places of birth and >> death? What would a family history in the matrilineal line look like? >> Where would it begin and where would it end? >> >> PSEUDOCONCEPTS: This is a version of the "why" game that eight year old >> children sometimes play. You start out with a simple fact, like "Kids eat >> food". You ask why. "Because they are hungry". You ask why. etc. You then >> ask the child to distinguish between different kinds of "because". Another >> version of this involves asking the child to create an autobiography, >> starting with the cover and the LAST chapter, then the penulitmate one, >> then the one before that, etc. and then asking how they are causally >> related (I usually ask the kids to do this photographs if they are too >> young....) >> >> (Mutatis mutandis...as you can see, it's sex education all the way down!) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!R7LPbeFF0mWZDKnZMqUJecJMcZAxKtLbeX2VyBRal1KbdhxEingEa4B_7PasO-k2W3x21A$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!R7LPbeFF0mWZDKnZMqUJecJMcZAxKtLbeX2VyBRal1KbdhxEingEa4B_7PasO-l5mqKrLg$ >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Good afternoon ~ >>> >>> I come to you (as a parent and as a teacher) seeking advice and >>> information, knowing this listserv is one of the best collective resources >>> on the subject at hand. Thank you in advance for your thoughts . . . >>> >>> FIRST, here is the question: >>> >>> - >>> >>> If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from >>> a disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher >>> psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for >>> A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) >>> increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? >>> >>> >>> SECOND, here is the theory (and source) behind the question: >>> >>> - >>> >>> Vygotsky?s ?Law of 4 Stages? - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q3p7rz__;!!Mih3wA!R7LPbeFF0mWZDKnZMqUJecJMcZAxKtLbeX2VyBRal1KbdhxEingEa4B_7PasO-kQBtGiqA$ >>> >>> (also, cf. "The Problem of the Cultural Development of the Child") >>> - >>> >>> In place of watching the (very good) 7-minute video, please refer to >>> these two excerpts that richly capture the video?s gist: >>> - >>> >>> From Clip 1 (?Vygotsky?s law of 4 stages?): >>> - >>> >>> ?This is the law that says there are 4 stages of the >>> development of every higher psychological function. It gives us a key to >>> understanding: if something goes wrong with the child, if the child has a >>> difficulty, maybe one of these stages didn?t go correctly. >>> - >>> >>> Stage 1 - natural behavior (no use of signs) >>> - >>> >>> Stage 2 - naive psychology (naive imitation) >>> - >>> >>> Stage 3 - external signs and operations (beyond crude >>> imitation but still reliant on external tools) >>> - >>> >>> Stage 4 - internal signs and operations (internalized >>> tools; decontextualized mediational means) >>> - >>> >>> From Clip 2 (?How this law can help teachers and students"): >>> - >>> >>> ?Put the child in specially created situations -- might be >>> play, game, competition, whatever -- and introduce these tools he or she >>> probably doesn?t have -- and then, having these internal tools, the child >>> comes back to the class equipped with the tools, and now the task will be >>> much easier for the child . . . because the tools are not related anymore >>> to the concrete task (in which they were developed). They are universal.? >>> >>> >>> With these assumptions in mind (and choosing to accept them at least for >>> now), here is the question again: >>> >>> - >>> >>> If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from >>> a disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher >>> psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for >>> A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) >>> increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? >>> >>> >>> Sincere thanks, >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> > > -- > > It is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai > Proverb > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!R7LPbeFF0mWZDKnZMqUJecJMcZAxKtLbeX2VyBRal1KbdhxEingEa4B_7PasO-mhebhcfQ$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/b603edef/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jul 9 00:45:53 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 08:45:53 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A Gender Gap in CHAT In-Reply-To: <21BA4BC4-44A2-41E5-938E-A7772A746820@hxcore.ol> References: <21BA4BC4-44A2-41E5-938E-A7772A746820@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: One requires reasoning to succinctly articulate, and viably defend, a minority position. On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 17:52, James Ma wrote: > As I see it, ?politically correct? is no less than a political precept. > More to the point, it?s becoming all the more a clich?, old and rusty. > Apolitical linguists (like myself) wouldn?t take a slight interest in that, > as you might expect. > > > > Sadly, students with a heightened awareness of ?political correctness? > appear to be much less theoretically observant and have limited academic > acumen in their writing, almost across all degree levels. > > > > A utilitarianist approach to higher education is seemingly looming up ? > particularly in institutions where *how-you-are-smart* predominates > *how-smart-you-are* ? this seems to have already deepened an existing > ontological chasm between what might be termed traditional and > non-traditional academic staff. > > > > James > > > > _______________________________________ > James Ma > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa__;!!Mih3wA!RH9_xXCiO0FCeOcxAPe1Y6nXo6t3RcjbjgaGXlYLRFnxzS2HOF5dRsjova2Gw_2OPbvdCg$ > > > > > *From: *David Kellogg > *Sent: *08 July 2020 04:59 > *To: *eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] A Gender Gap in CHAT > > > > "Politically correct" is really incorrect, politically. I don't just mean > that it has long since gone from being an inside joke on the left to being > a bugaboo-boogaloo of the right and now an excuse for the overt, > shameless propagation of racist filth, even on this list. I mean that the > issues we are discussing under this heading are often sub-political, or > only very subtley political, and reducing them to political stance taking > means ignoring their real roots: economic, social, and cultural. That's why > I really resisted the idea that my graduate student can fight patriarchy by > refusing to teach a lesson in which two boys arm wrestle for a trophy > girlfriend. It really makes a lot more sense to trust in teachers to teach > the lesson critically, and trust in learners to learn skeptically. Besides, > what's the point of saving your own soul if it costs you the rest of the > world? (There is a feminist novel making the rounds here in Korea that > refers to sexual harrassment, marriage, childbirth and almost every > imaginable form of gender gap and somehow manages not to refer to female > desire at all--understandably, the kids prefer K-pop, even though some of > the K-pop stars have actually started reading it!) > > > > I just read Perezhivanie, Emotions, and Subjectivity, which is the first > volume of the Perspectives in Cultural Historical Research series that > Nikolai and I are contributing to. There is much to commend, and even more > to object to, but what really struck me is that we have a kind of gender > gap within CHAT itself: the empirical classroom data is almost always > supplied by younger women, and the theoretical, philosophical musings are > heavily gendered towards older men. This tendency goes from the editors > of the volume right down to the references and even the bibliography. Of > course, this gender gap--our own gender gap--is a reflection of the > societies that we live in (from the early USSR right up to our present > day). Of course, the editors and the authors and even the learners in the > volume are all doing what they can to overcome it in various ways. But > instead of going away, it tends to create a noticeable gap between theory > and praxis. there is always a slight rumble and grinding of gears, a jump > cut, when the article switches from "Theoretical Background" to > "Study". There is nothing quite comparable in, say, systemic functional > linguistics. (Interestingly, systemic functional linguistics has a lot > of intellectual "power couples", where both husband and wife are both > theorists and practioners....) : > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RH9_xXCiO0FCeOcxAPe1Y6nXo6t3RcjbjgaGXlYLRFnxzS2HOF5dRsjova2Gw_3jseX2EA$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RH9_xXCiO0FCeOcxAPe1Y6nXo6t3RcjbjgaGXlYLRFnxzS2HOF5dRsjova2Gw_2fTM9U6g$ > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/91adbd55/attachment.html From bella.kotik@gmail.com Thu Jul 9 01:33:59 2020 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 11:33:59 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A practical request (re: memory development) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To all theoretical and practical advice, I would add one important point - *metacognition *which has to be present and can be promoted at the age of 10. Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 11:53 PM Anthony Barra wrote: > Good afternoon ~ > > I come to you (as a parent and as a teacher) seeking advice and > information, knowing this listserv is one of the best collective resources > on the subject at hand. Thank you in advance for your thoughts . . . > > FIRST, here is the question: > > - > > If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from a > disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher > psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) > developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase > the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? > > > SECOND, here is the theory (and source) behind the question: > > - > > Vygotsky?s ?Law of 4 Stages? - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q3p7rz__;!!Mih3wA!Sf4Loej6TF-MS1q49nl1yGrgm_SBjETnKIksEhXNsBV8Dq1b6e212l3MLQsll1WN0H1MiQ$ > > (also, cf. "The Problem of the Cultural Development of the Child") > - > > In place of watching the (very good) 7-minute video, please refer to > these two excerpts that richly capture the video?s gist: > - > > From Clip 1 (?Vygotsky?s law of 4 stages?): > - > > ?This is the law that says there are 4 stages of the development > of every higher psychological function. It gives us a key to understanding: > if something goes wrong with the child, if the child has a difficulty, > maybe one of these stages didn?t go correctly. > - > > Stage 1 - natural behavior (no use of signs) > - > > Stage 2 - naive psychology (naive imitation) > - > > Stage 3 - external signs and operations (beyond crude > imitation but still reliant on external tools) > - > > Stage 4 - internal signs and operations (internalized tools; > decontextualized mediational means) > - > > From Clip 2 (?How this law can help teachers and students"): > - > > ?Put the child in specially created situations -- might be play, > game, competition, whatever -- and introduce these tools he or she probably > doesn?t have -- and then, having these internal tools, the child comes back > to the class equipped with the tools, and now the task will be much easier > for the child . . . because the tools are not related anymore to the > concrete task (in which they were developed). They are universal.? > > > With these assumptions in mind (and choosing to accept them at least for > now), here is the question again: > > - > > If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from a > disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher > psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) > developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase > the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? > > > Sincere thanks, > > Anthony > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/99a2f062/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jul 9 01:35:14 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 09:35:14 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A practical request (re: memory development) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Harshad, which is your personal name, please (what I would call a Christian name), is it Harshad or Dave? Anthony, To help place Harshad's (*) experience (which is frequently reported) within the theoretical and experimental literature of the Russian (and in my opinion, more rigorous) aspects of the literature, design "instruction" so that what is to be remembered (if that is actually a goal, which seems dubious - see next paragraph) is located within the structure of the child's activity. The child's activity is not necessarily the same thing as the activity that the adult intends, this is one reason why I call it active orientation. Another way to put this is, do not even worry about memory, focus upon understanding instead. Or, if you are concerned about remembering anything (like a phone number) focus upon understanding techniques of recall. Note that by understanding, I do not mean merely knowing. This seemingly simple epistemological distinction between understanding and knowing is an important principle of developmental education which distinguishes it from many conventional schooling practices. I'm happy to send you references, papers, or correspond offline if you wish. Best, Huw On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 05:16, Harshad Dave wrote: > Hi, > > I am not much aware and experience with the subject matter under > discussion.... however i share one observation that i have noted in the > journey of my life and i hope you might have also. > > The memory power has strong link with our self interest in the subject > matter. > If parent/teacher make the subject matter very interesting for the kids, > and get their interest tempted in the issue..... the kids / students grasps > the same immediately and that too for a long time also. > > Regards, > > Harshad Dave > > On Thu, 9 Jul 2020, 08:45 mike cole, wrote: > >> If I were seeking professional information a child I was concerned about >> for the reasons >> relate, Anthony, and I was interested in how a cultural-historical >> psychologist thinks about >> such matters, I would check the work of Tatiana Akhutina whose writings >> can be found on >> Academia. >> mike >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> Anthony-- >>> >>> I'm conflicted. >>> >>> I am working on a "Capstone Design" class preparing sex education >>> materials. It's pretty interesting stuff, because for the first time in the >>> child's life the child is experiencing "perizhivanie" which has CONCEPTUAL >>> content without any EXPERIENTIAL content. To me, this suggests a change in >>> ALL psychological functions: affective perception (obviously), attention >>> (as an immediate result) and memory (which ipso facto cannot play the same >>> role in creating generalized representations that it once did), >>> >>> Now, the materials that the Gyeonggi-do provincial government developed >>> teach AIDS/HIV prevention with something I would basically call a multiple >>> choice/true false test. You give the child a dozen different ways in which >>> people interact (going to the Korean sauna together, sharing chopsticks, >>> kissing, sitting on an unwiped toilet seat, etc.) and the child has to >>> choose the only two which actually do spread AIDS (sharing needles and >>> having unproteced sex). This is an example of what I would call >>> "backwash"--you start out with the test, which is essentially >>> diagnostic and not pedagogical in design. You then work backwards. And >>> because we all like to take the fastest and most direct route to the >>> object, you end up teaching to the test. Which is, almost by definition, >>> bad teaching. >>> >>> I'm afraid I see some of this in Nikolai's lecture. He starts out (as he >>> often does) with a very useful distinction between tools for research and >>> tools for pedagogy (or, in the instance of perizhivanie, between tools for >>> research and tools for thinking about research). But in his natural >>> enthusiasm for research there is a bit of backwash--towards making what are >>> essentially ANALYTICAL stages into PEDAGOGICAL ones. >>> >>> Vygotsky derives his four stages (in T&S and also in Chapter 5 of HDHMF) >>> from Buhler. Buhler tells us that there are three historical stages of >>> human behavior (unconditional instincts, conditional habits, creative >>> intelligence) and he thinks these will be useful in analyzing childhood >>> into periods. Vygotsky agrees, but he points out that free will is none of >>> these (think of sexual consent, and you will see--it is a higher form of >>> behavior that owes very little to instinct, habit, or even creativity and >>> is in some ways inimical to all three). Vygotsky also points out that ALL >>> of these forms (including free will) are present right there in infancy, so >>> using the to analyze childhood will involve analyzing each period that way >>> and not simply assigning behaviors to age periods one to one. All of this >>> suggests to me that natural memory (an instinct), naive memory (a >>> conditional habit), external-sign-memory (creative intelligence) and >>> "vraschivaniye" (free memory) are analytical tools and not pedagogical ones. >>> >>> But what would a pedagogy informed by this mean? I don't know. I think >>> it would first of all have to be age-period-sensitive. A ten year old is >>> after the Crisis at Seven and before the Crisis at Thirteen. The memories >>> in question ARE experiential (they are not fantasies); they are >>> generalized representations (e.g. chain-like narratives, diffuse complexes >>> like family trees, and above all pseudoconcepts). Here are some activities >>> I have used. >>> >>> CHAINS: You play ???? a well known word game in Korean. Round One is >>> when each player offers a two-syllable word, repeating the the >>> last syllable of the previous word and then adding a new syllable. In >>> English it might go something like this: >>> "Monday-->Daytime-->Timely--"Lytic--"Tick-tock"--"toxin"--"inform".... >>> Round Two is when you try to remember as many of the words as you can in >>> the form of a story. "On Monday, during the daytime, I chose a timely >>> moment to read Leontiev's definition of lytic periods in child development >>> and try to apply them to Sarah Cooper's impersonations of Donald Trump on >>> Tick-tock, but the toxic masculinity which informed....etc." >>> >>> DIFFUSE COMPLEXES: In Korea, we do "??" offerings to four generations in >>> the patrilineal line. Suppose you also want to honor your maternal >>> ancestors. Can you remember anything about them? Their places of birth and >>> death? What would a family history in the matrilineal line look like? >>> Where would it begin and where would it end? >>> >>> PSEUDOCONCEPTS: This is a version of the "why" game that eight year old >>> children sometimes play. You start out with a simple fact, like "Kids eat >>> food". You ask why. "Because they are hungry". You ask why. etc. You then >>> ask the child to distinguish between different kinds of "because". Another >>> version of this involves asking the child to create an autobiography, >>> starting with the cover and the LAST chapter, then the penulitmate one, >>> then the one before that, etc. and then asking how they are causally >>> related (I usually ask the kids to do this photographs if they are too >>> young....) >>> >>> (Mutatis mutandis...as you can see, it's sex education all the way down!) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TPNP4GiRzH7RFTSSoae4U59X9vT0DMmp0pqHJ3j5u6UFk7goZ-BOM0Lw2RWBfDlDfvMo6A$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TPNP4GiRzH7RFTSSoae4U59X9vT0DMmp0pqHJ3j5u6UFk7goZ-BOM0Lw2RWBfDkHQzfoLg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Good afternoon ~ >>>> >>>> I come to you (as a parent and as a teacher) seeking advice and >>>> information, knowing this listserv is one of the best collective resources >>>> on the subject at hand. Thank you in advance for your thoughts . . . >>>> >>>> FIRST, here is the question: >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially >>>> from a disruption in the child?s process of development of the >>>> higher psychological function of memory -- what are some >>>> suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in >>>> order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? >>>> >>>> >>>> SECOND, here is the theory (and source) behind the question: >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Vygotsky?s ?Law of 4 Stages? - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q3p7rz__;!!Mih3wA!TPNP4GiRzH7RFTSSoae4U59X9vT0DMmp0pqHJ3j5u6UFk7goZ-BOM0Lw2RWBfDk6Tv0xBQ$ >>>> >>>> (also, cf. "The Problem of the Cultural Development of the Child") >>>> - >>>> >>>> In place of watching the (very good) 7-minute video, please refer >>>> to these two excerpts that richly capture the video?s gist: >>>> - >>>> >>>> From Clip 1 (?Vygotsky?s law of 4 stages?): >>>> - >>>> >>>> ?This is the law that says there are 4 stages of the >>>> development of every higher psychological function. It gives us a key to >>>> understanding: if something goes wrong with the child, if the child has a >>>> difficulty, maybe one of these stages didn?t go correctly. >>>> - >>>> >>>> Stage 1 - natural behavior (no use of signs) >>>> - >>>> >>>> Stage 2 - naive psychology (naive imitation) >>>> - >>>> >>>> Stage 3 - external signs and operations (beyond crude >>>> imitation but still reliant on external tools) >>>> - >>>> >>>> Stage 4 - internal signs and operations (internalized >>>> tools; decontextualized mediational means) >>>> - >>>> >>>> From Clip 2 (?How this law can help teachers and students"): >>>> - >>>> >>>> ?Put the child in specially created situations -- might be >>>> play, game, competition, whatever -- and introduce these tools he or she >>>> probably doesn?t have -- and then, having these internal tools, the child >>>> comes back to the class equipped with the tools, and now the task will be >>>> much easier for the child . . . because the tools are not related anymore >>>> to the concrete task (in which they were developed). They are universal.? >>>> >>>> >>>> With these assumptions in mind (and choosing to accept them at least >>>> for now), here is the question again: >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially >>>> from a disruption in the child?s process of development of the >>>> higher psychological function of memory -- what are some >>>> suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in >>>> order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? >>>> >>>> >>>> Sincere thanks, >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> >> It is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai >> Proverb >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TPNP4GiRzH7RFTSSoae4U59X9vT0DMmp0pqHJ3j5u6UFk7goZ-BOM0Lw2RWBfDmJXJSwGQ$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/888a580f/attachment.html From hans.knutagard@ingressus.se Thu Jul 9 02:04:05 2020 From: hans.knutagard@ingressus.se (=?utf-8?Q?Hans_Knutag=C3=A5rd?=) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 11:04:05 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality In-Reply-To: References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> <43189D87-5405-43F6-97B9-D6B2AA96A478@unh.edu> <86B3E6DC-98C7-4525-AA0A-34B1DFEF74EA@unh.edu> Message-ID: Thank you Andrew for sharing the document and Wollf-Michael for your suggestions as well. Even in Swedish the words for identity like, jag, sj?lv, mig, ego are affected with the understanding our of an individual perspektiv and in that sense the word I have to use limit or predict the understanding. It os like you have to explain the cultural historic frame first in order to mention the word. Then if you would like to problemtize how we as human begin appropriates a self apart from other self and how this self develop. I will take in you articles and hopefully return more wise and with less questions. Thanks Hans > 9 juli 2020 kl. 02:23 skrev Annalisa Aguilar >: > > Hi Wollf-Michael, > > I would not mind to read your articles. As I asked Andrew, would you be willing to share your suggested articles to the list? > > Thank you ! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Wolff-Michael Roth > > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 4:07 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality > > [EXTERNAL] > On identity from sociocultural and cultural-historical perspectives, we have had a number of things during the first decade of the century. In this MCA piece, the attempt is to approach the issue through the construct of identity: > Roth, W.-M., Tobin, K., Elmesky, R., Carambo, C., McKnight, Y., & Beers, J. (2004). Re/making identities in the praxis of urban schooling: A cultural historical perspective. Mind, Culture, & Activity, 11, 48-69. > > But there are problems, I think, from the cultural-historical perspective with the concept of identity, and thus in later work, I formulated the problem of the subject in terms of personality: > Roth, W.-M. (2013). Activity, subjectification, and personality: Science education from a diversity of life perspective. In N. Mansour & R. Wegerif (Eds.), Science education for diversity in knowledge society (pp. 41?64). Dordrecht, The Netherlands: Springer. > > Another approach more suitable for a CHAT approach is through the category of experience (perezhivanie) > Roth, W.-M. (2013). Activity, subjectification, and personality: Science education from a diversity of life perspective. In N. Mansour & R. Wegerif (Eds.), Science education for diversity in knowledge society (pp. 41?64). Dordrecht, The Netherlands: Springer. > > Michael > > Roth, W.-M., & Tobin, K. (Eds.). (2007). Science, learning, identity: Sociocultural and cultural historical perspectives. Rotterdam, The Netherlands: Sense Publishers. > Roth, W.-M., Hwang, S., Lee, Y-J., & Goulart, M.I.M. (2005). Participation, learning, and identity: Dialectical perspectives. Berlin, Germany: Lehmanns Media. > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:58 PM Coppens, Andrew > wrote: > Sure thing. They are here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.dropbox.com/sh/25ur8zs6q7f5fcq/AADDJaO1Xq7ZzpD_R068lmbda?dl=0__;!!Mih3wA!Sq1uPTWifZrz1diPvPvuyXpNjR7EZmVJS66obdFOQnQCgmU3FK3CsS7fOtBHobx2k-QxhQ$ > > / Andrew > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens > > > From: > on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 4:24 PM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality > > > Hi Andrew, > > I would be happy to receive a copy of these articles. In the name of fair use, would you please post them to the list? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Coppens, Andrew > > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 11:35 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality > > [EXTERNAL] > Hi Hans, > > I agree with Andy that this is a complex question. Some of the complexity comes from around 40 years of identity research in psychological/personality traditions, that significantly departs from Erikson?s (1964) writings in Identity: Youth and Crisis to develop a relatively strong individualistic and ahistorical view. In the wake of this tradition, technical terms for Erikson such as ?identity,? ?self,? ?ego,? etc. have vernacular connotations rooted in individualistic (American) psychological paradigms. Erikson explicitly and preemptively rejected much of the Marcia ?identity status? tradition, despite its later and continued prominence. For example: > > ?In emphasizing once more the complementarity of life history and history, I must register a certain impatience with the faddish equation, never suggested by me, of the term identity with the question ?Who am I?? This question nobody would ask himself except in a more or less transient morbid state, in a creative self-confrontation, or in an adolescent state sometimes combining both? The pertinent question, if it can be put into the first person at all, would be, ?What do I want to make of myself, and what do I have to work with??? (Erikson, 1964, p. 314) > > In the broader arc of Erikson?s writing in this book, ?who am I?? is recast as a historical and cultural question for particular communities and not a question inherent to identity work for everyone. See Matusov & Smith (2012) below on this point, and Arnett and many others on the historical and cultural specificity of adolescence as understood by many middle-class Western communities. > > In the rise of narrative (especially not autobiographical) approaches to identity research, some are returning to Erik Erikson?s writings with questions that many CHAT researchers would share. See this special issue from a couple of years ago: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hidn20/18/4__;!!Mih3wA!Sq1uPTWifZrz1diPvPvuyXpNjR7EZmVJS66obdFOQnQCgmU3FK3CsS7fOtBHobw1IWW8jw$ . Erikson was trying to unite sociology and clinical psychology, a means to an end aimed at historicizing the self in ways that are often compatible with CHAT?s efforts to historicize the mind. Colleagues and I are currently writing a paper that reads Erikson?s project as developing ?identity? not as an individual process or property, but as this sort of a historical unit of analysis, constituted in dialectically related personal biography and cultural history. Regretfully, we don?t yet have a draft that can be shared. > > I also suggest the following, and I am certainly overlooking many other relevant works: > > Matusov, E., & Smith, M. P. (2012). The middle-class nature of identity and its implications for education: A genealogical analysis and reevaluation of a culturally and historically bounded concept. Integrative Psychological and Behavioral Science, 46(3), 274?295. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s12124-012-9192-0__;!!Mih3wA!Sq1uPTWifZrz1diPvPvuyXpNjR7EZmVJS66obdFOQnQCgmU3FK3CsS7fOtBHobxzCZENOw$ > > Nasir, N. S., & Cooks, J. (2009). Becoming a Hurdler: How Learning Settings Afford Identities. Anthropology & Education Quarterly, 40(1), 41?61. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1548-1492.2009.01027.x__;!!Mih3wA!Sq1uPTWifZrz1diPvPvuyXpNjR7EZmVJS66obdFOQnQCgmU3FK3CsS7fOtBHobyCj5KfMQ$ > > Stetsenko, A. (2013). The Challenge of Individuality in Cultural Historical Activity Theory: ?Collectividual? Dialectics from a Transformative Activist Stance. Outlines: Critical Practice Studies, 14(2), 7?28. > > Stetsenko, A., & Arievitch, I. M. (2004). The self in cultural-historical activity theory: Reclaiming the unity of social and individual dimensions of human development. Theory & Psychology, 14(4), 475?503. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1177/0959354304044921__;!!Mih3wA!Sq1uPTWifZrz1diPvPvuyXpNjR7EZmVJS66obdFOQnQCgmU3FK3CsS7fOtBHobydtdcixg$ > > V?gan, A. (2011). Towards a Sociocultural Perspective on Identity Formation in Education. Mind, Culture, and Activity, 18(1), 43?57. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1080/10749031003605839__;!!Mih3wA!Sq1uPTWifZrz1diPvPvuyXpNjR7EZmVJS66obdFOQnQCgmU3FK3CsS7fOtBHobw6YKMdjg$ > > Wenger, E. (1998). Communities of practice: Learning, meaning, and identity. Cambridge University Press. > > Happy to share these readings if you are behind a paywall, Hans. > > / Andrew > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens > > > From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 9:22 AM > To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu " > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality > > I hope others will chime in with more answers for you, Hans, because this is actually a very complex question. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com.au/Identity-Agency-Cultural-Dorothy-Holland/dp/0674005627__;!!Mih3wA!Sq1uPTWifZrz1diPvPvuyXpNjR7EZmVJS66obdFOQnQCgmU3FK3CsS7fOtBHobw3l8DL-A$ "Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds" will have a lot helpful material for you. As I recall, in this book, Dorothy Holland explains that there are two basic answers to asking what is the "self." For some people it is a kind of inner core, for others it is something that grows and matures in interaction with the world, layers rather than an inner core. CHAT writers tend to answer for the second approach rather than the first. > Add to this the difficulty in translating the word "personality" between Russian and English. There are not perfect matches. Even the Kantian "I" is a construct of development for CHAT and not some transcendental entity. Vygotsky and Leontyev are more like Hegel and Marx than Kant and Nietzsche. > > The following article of mine https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Leontyev*20and*20Social*20Theory.pdf__;JSUl!!Mih3wA!Sq1uPTWifZrz1diPvPvuyXpNjR7EZmVJS66obdFOQnQCgmU3FK3CsS7fOtBHobyfFJwwTA$ looks at Leontyev's ideas, including his idea of "personality," and https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor*20Vasilyuk.pdf__;JQ!!Mih3wA!Sq1uPTWifZrz1diPvPvuyXpNjR7EZmVJS66obdFOQnQCgmU3FK3CsS7fOtBHobxalzJsiQ$ looks at Vasilyuk's Psychology which may also help shed light on Soviet approaches. > Hope that helps. > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 8/07/2020 6:23 pm, Hans Knutag?rd wrote: > Dear xmca, > > I am struggling between the notion of personality and identity in the framework of Chat. My understanding is that we cannot talk about identity only personality since it os required in relation to other people and environment. Can somebody help me with some reading or references I can dig into? > > Yours Hans -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/322d8517/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jul 9 03:03:53 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 11:03:53 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity and personality In-Reply-To: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> Message-ID: Hans, The relation between the notions is a moving target. Perhaps one could consider identity as tactic and personality as strategy to construe the relation as dialectical. As with any subject, one has different ontological view points, predicated upon the author's own understanding (and development). Hence we have different types of views about a developmental subject which itself goes through these different types of views (of an 'I'). Some people will say it is all social milieu, some that the development stops after childhood, some put it down to experience or perezhivanie, some recognise that personal agency can transcend social situations if one has conscious control over emotional predispositions, etc. Best, Huw On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 09:27, Hans Knutag?rd wrote: > Dear xmca, > > I am struggling between the notion of personality and identity in the > framework of Chat. My understanding is that we cannot talk about identity > only personality since it os required in relation to other people and > environment. Can somebody help me with some reading or references I can dig > into? > > Yours Hans > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/dce0ef08/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Thu Jul 9 09:41:02 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 11:41:02 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Indigenous rights In-Reply-To: References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> Message-ID: <9CAB3486-182A-46B0-A58B-E56F028AFF10@cantab.net> I am delighted to see that the US supreme court has ruled that the state of Oklahoma must recognize the treaty signed long ago with indigenous peoples. If Congress wants to reject that treaty it will have to do so explicitly, and that is likely to be a struggle! As one NY Times reader notes, "the question of what the impact is on the state's regulatory authority over the land in question is coming!? If slavery was the original sin of the US this was only by a small margin, since conflict with indigenous peoples had begun by 1622. The US government went on to authorize over 1,500 wars, attacks and raids on Indians. (Perhaps as someone born in the UK I should add that I am well aware of the British role in this.) Martin https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/us/supreme-court-oklahoma-mcgirt-creek-nation.html__;!!Mih3wA!VMKWbsJhRB0U4ZXzbOuZ9venWhBpAYlMXR5KCcDmA6aFJpxVx1uoL2Q2uCdSo1IqY7z2mw$ Supreme Court Rules Nearly Half of Oklahoma Is Indian Reservation The 5-4 decision could reshape criminal justice in eastern Oklahoma by preventing state authorities from prosecuting Native Americans -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/e6a9e684/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jul 9 09:48:08 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 09:48:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Indigenous rights In-Reply-To: <9CAB3486-182A-46B0-A58B-E56F028AFF10@cantab.net> References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> <9CAB3486-182A-46B0-A58B-E56F028AFF10@cantab.net> Message-ID: Amazing! What a huge victory for Indigenous people. And it comes as the Standing Rock Sioux stopped the pipeline running through their land. sure enough the times, they are a changing. mike On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 9:43 AM Martin Packer wrote: > I am delighted to see that the US supreme court has ruled that the state > of Oklahoma must recognize the treaty signed long ago with indigenous > peoples. If Congress wants to reject that treaty it will have to do so > explicitly, and that is likely to be a struggle! > > As one NY Times reader notes, "the question of what the impact is on the > state's regulatory authority over the land in question is coming!? > > If slavery was the original sin of the US this was only by a small margin, > since conflict with indigenous peoples had begun by 1622. The US government > went on to authorize over 1,500 wars, attacks and raids on Indians. > > (Perhaps as someone born in the UK I should add that I am well aware of > the British role in this.) > > Martin > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/us/supreme-court-oklahoma-mcgirt-creek-nation.html__;!!Mih3wA!Q1OGzmaRIhPVOSjKcZ0XIEvR9UY6_28zXxMCQ4AzqJMAxhut6Y4FqH7C_Sb6GT91a_hFyQ$ > > > Supreme Court Rules Nearly Half of Oklahoma Is Indian Reservation > > The 5-4 decision could reshape criminal justice in eastern Oklahoma by > preventing state authorities from prosecuting Native Americans > > -- It is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai Proverb --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q1OGzmaRIhPVOSjKcZ0XIEvR9UY6_28zXxMCQ4AzqJMAxhut6Y4FqH7C_Sb6GT_mQJ8ROA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/514bf1e0/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jul 9 10:27:10 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 17:27:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A practical request (re: memory development) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Anthony, Huw, Harshad, and V. others, I agree with Huw on understanding over memory. It would also not be a bad idea to promote a self-understanding of knowledge/understanding, or meta-cognition, to understand how one understands. It's a great thing to explain to kids that every person learns in different ways and there is no "best" or singular way to learn, and that all learning happens in steps, not like flipping a switch on and off. Rather analogously like the game Tetras (maybe this is why it's a video game that has lasted and remained so popular). One thing is certain, intellectual bullying is not a good practice in creating a learning space or community. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 2:35 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A practical request (re: memory development) [EXTERNAL] Harshad, which is your personal name, please (what I would call a Christian name), is it Harshad or Dave? Anthony, To help place Harshad's (*) experience (which is frequently reported) within the theoretical and experimental literature of the Russian (and in my opinion, more rigorous) aspects of the literature, design "instruction" so that what is to be remembered (if that is actually a goal, which seems dubious - see next paragraph) is located within the structure of the child's activity. The child's activity is not necessarily the same thing as the activity that the adult intends, this is one reason why I call it active orientation. Another way to put this is, do not even worry about memory, focus upon understanding instead. Or, if you are concerned about remembering anything (like a phone number) focus upon understanding techniques of recall. Note that by understanding, I do not mean merely knowing. This seemingly simple epistemological distinction between understanding and knowing is an important principle of developmental education which distinguishes it from many conventional schooling practices. I'm happy to send you references, papers, or correspond offline if you wish. Best, Huw On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 05:16, Harshad Dave > wrote: Hi, I am not much aware and experience with the subject matter under discussion.... however i share one observation that i have noted in the journey of my life and i hope you might have also. The memory power has strong link with our self interest in the subject matter. If parent/teacher make the subject matter very interesting for the kids, and get their interest tempted in the issue..... the kids / students grasps the same immediately and that too for a long time also. Regards, Harshad Dave On Thu, 9 Jul 2020, 08:45 mike cole, > wrote: If I were seeking professional information a child I was concerned about for the reasons relate, Anthony, and I was interested in how a cultural-historical psychologist thinks about such matters, I would check the work of Tatiana Akhutina whose writings can be found on Academia. mike On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Anthony-- I'm conflicted. I am working on a "Capstone Design" class preparing sex education materials. It's pretty interesting stuff, because for the first time in the child's life the child is experiencing "perizhivanie" which has CONCEPTUAL content without any EXPERIENTIAL content. To me, this suggests a change in ALL psychological functions: affective perception (obviously), attention (as an immediate result) and memory (which ipso facto cannot play the same role in creating generalized representations that it once did), Now, the materials that the Gyeonggi-do provincial government developed teach AIDS/HIV prevention with something I would basically call a multiple choice/true false test. You give the child a dozen different ways in which people interact (going to the Korean sauna together, sharing chopsticks, kissing, sitting on an unwiped toilet seat, etc.) and the child has to choose the only two which actually do spread AIDS (sharing needles and having unproteced sex). This is an example of what I would call "backwash"--you start out with the test, which is essentially diagnostic and not pedagogical in design. You then work backwards. And because we all like to take the fastest and most direct route to the object, you end up teaching to the test. Which is, almost by definition, bad teaching. I'm afraid I see some of this in Nikolai's lecture. He starts out (as he often does) with a very useful distinction between tools for research and tools for pedagogy (or, in the instance of perizhivanie, between tools for research and tools for thinking about research). But in his natural enthusiasm for research there is a bit of backwash--towards making what are essentially ANALYTICAL stages into PEDAGOGICAL ones. Vygotsky derives his four stages (in T&S and also in Chapter 5 of HDHMF) from Buhler. Buhler tells us that there are three historical stages of human behavior (unconditional instincts, conditional habits, creative intelligence) and he thinks these will be useful in analyzing childhood into periods. Vygotsky agrees, but he points out that free will is none of these (think of sexual consent, and you will see--it is a higher form of behavior that owes very little to instinct, habit, or even creativity and is in some ways inimical to all three). Vygotsky also points out that ALL of these forms (including free will) are present right there in infancy, so using the to analyze childhood will involve analyzing each period that way and not simply assigning behaviors to age periods one to one. All of this suggests to me that natural memory (an instinct), naive memory (a conditional habit), external-sign-memory (creative intelligence) and "vraschivaniye" (free memory) are analytical tools and not pedagogical ones. But what would a pedagogy informed by this mean? I don't know. I think it would first of all have to be age-period-sensitive. A ten year old is after the Crisis at Seven and before the Crisis at Thirteen. The memories in question ARE experiential (they are not fantasies); they are generalized representations (e.g. chain-like narratives, diffuse complexes like family trees, and above all pseudoconcepts). Here are some activities I have used. CHAINS: You play ???? a well known word game in Korean. Round One is when each player offers a two-syllable word, repeating the the last syllable of the previous word and then adding a new syllable. In English it might go something like this: "Monday-->Daytime-->Timely--"Lytic--"Tick-tock"--"toxin"--"inform".... Round Two is when you try to remember as many of the words as you can in the form of a story. "On Monday, during the daytime, I chose a timely moment to read Leontiev's definition of lytic periods in child development and try to apply them to Sarah Cooper's impersonations of Donald Trump on Tick-tock, but the toxic masculinity which informed....etc." DIFFUSE COMPLEXES: In Korea, we do "??" offerings to four generations in the patrilineal line. Suppose you also want to honor your maternal ancestors. Can you remember anything about them? Their places of birth and death? What would a family history in the matrilineal line look like? Where would it begin and where would it end? PSEUDOCONCEPTS: This is a version of the "why" game that eight year old children sometimes play. You start out with a simple fact, like "Kids eat food". You ask why. "Because they are hungry". You ask why. etc. You then ask the child to distinguish between different kinds of "because". Another version of this involves asking the child to create an autobiography, starting with the cover and the LAST chapter, then the penulitmate one, then the one before that, etc. and then asking how they are causally related (I usually ask the kids to do this photographs if they are too young....) (Mutatis mutandis...as you can see, it's sex education all the way down!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SyErpwsLQtkc_ESx0hePHc5t5NMj6uFjZ9s6f-wBsOTAWh6Xcra-B559zqTwdedtZlYXQQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SyErpwsLQtkc_ESx0hePHc5t5NMj6uFjZ9s6f-wBsOTAWh6Xcra-B559zqTwdedx5zxQVg$ On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra > wrote: Good afternoon ~ I come to you (as a parent and as a teacher) seeking advice and information, knowing this listserv is one of the best collective resources on the subject at hand. Thank you in advance for your thoughts . . . FIRST, here is the question: * If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from a disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? SECOND, here is the theory (and source) behind the question: * Vygotsky?s ?Law of 4 Stages? - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q3p7rz__;!!Mih3wA!SyErpwsLQtkc_ESx0hePHc5t5NMj6uFjZ9s6f-wBsOTAWh6Xcra-B559zqTwdecb_AQZ1Q$ (also, cf. "The Problem of the Cultural Development of the Child") * In place of watching the (very good) 7-minute video, please refer to these two excerpts that richly capture the video?s gist: * From Clip 1 (?Vygotsky?s law of 4 stages?): * ?This is the law that says there are 4 stages of the development of every higher psychological function. It gives us a key to understanding: if something goes wrong with the child, if the child has a difficulty, maybe one of these stages didn?t go correctly. * Stage 1 - natural behavior (no use of signs) * Stage 2 - naive psychology (naive imitation) * Stage 3 - external signs and operations (beyond crude imitation but still reliant on external tools) * Stage 4 - internal signs and operations (internalized tools; decontextualized mediational means) * From Clip 2 (?How this law can help teachers and students"): * ?Put the child in specially created situations -- might be play, game, competition, whatever -- and introduce these tools he or she probably doesn?t have -- and then, having these internal tools, the child comes back to the class equipped with the tools, and now the task will be much easier for the child . . . because the tools are not related anymore to the concrete task (in which they were developed). They are universal.? With these assumptions in mind (and choosing to accept them at least for now), here is the question again: * If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from a disruption in the child?s process of development of the higher psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? Sincere thanks, Anthony -- [https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1nKr_V-nd_LydVSEg8bKByT8_b7NaOM9O&revid=0B3ZWB9Om4xMjSnpLbDVwSStDZk54VFMwbVpOSnNQNnBtN3dzPQ*It__;XQ!!Mih3wA!SyErpwsLQtkc_ESx0hePHc5t5NMj6uFjZ9s6f-wBsOTAWh6Xcra-B559zqTwdedkogKGHw$ is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai Proverb --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SyErpwsLQtkc_ESx0hePHc5t5NMj6uFjZ9s6f-wBsOTAWh6Xcra-B559zqTwdeeoHHwvnw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/45e08fe3/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jul 9 10:51:55 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 17:51:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Indigenous rights In-Reply-To: References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> <9CAB3486-182A-46B0-A58B-E56F028AFF10@cantab.net>, Message-ID: WOW! This really might be the beginning of finally facing our history and a step toward reconciliation. Interesting that Gorsuch has a past of siding with Native Americans, while also being conservative. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 10:48 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Indigenous rights [EXTERNAL] Amazing! What a huge victory for Indigenous people. And it comes as the Standing Rock Sioux stopped the pipeline running through their land. sure enough the times, they are a changing. mike On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 9:43 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I am delighted to see that the US supreme court has ruled that the state of Oklahoma must recognize the treaty signed long ago with indigenous peoples. If Congress wants to reject that treaty it will have to do so explicitly, and that is likely to be a struggle! As one NY Times reader notes, "the question of what the impact is on the state's regulatory authority over the land in question is coming!? If slavery was the original sin of the US this was only by a small margin, since conflict with indigenous peoples had begun by 1622. The US government went on to authorize over 1,500 wars, attacks and raids on Indians. (Perhaps as someone born in the UK I should add that I am well aware of the British role in this.) Martin https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/us/supreme-court-oklahoma-mcgirt-creek-nation.html__;!!Mih3wA!XNOvHNE3tHIyB0ekzO56d-kxxC-c872_3UkxfVAX393gNwx2RoDd_IuetmlnKgFU8gC-MQ$ Supreme Court Rules Nearly Half of Oklahoma Is Indian Reservation The 5-4 decision could reshape criminal justice in eastern Oklahoma by preventing state authorities from prosecuting Native Americans -- [https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1nKr_V-nd_LydVSEg8bKByT8_b7NaOM9O&revid=0B3ZWB9Om4xMjSnpLbDVwSStDZk54VFMwbVpOSnNQNnBtN3dzPQ*It__;XQ!!Mih3wA!XNOvHNE3tHIyB0ekzO56d-kxxC-c872_3UkxfVAX393gNwx2RoDd_IuetmlnKgHawPuT-Q$ is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai Proverb --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XNOvHNE3tHIyB0ekzO56d-kxxC-c872_3UkxfVAX393gNwx2RoDd_IuetmlnKgHhGGcvDg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/b6bec4fe/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Thu Jul 9 12:00:34 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 15:00:34 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Indigenous rights In-Reply-To: References: <000FAE4B-7AF4-4C0D-9327-ED1FE7309344@ingressus.se> <9CAB3486-182A-46B0-A58B-E56F028AFF10@cantab.net> Message-ID: <004501d65623$3ac63280$b0529780$@att.net> And the Atlantic Coast pipeline died this weekend too (even after the company just won a court case)! Seems to me this all must be addressing the age old question: What is protesting worth? Answer: Besides a win for the earth, indigenous people and local people, protesting seems worth about four and a half billion dollars extra that Dominion Energy paid as they tried to sneak around and do it in spite of 6 years of well- researched, argued, and organized protests. And the Potomac pipeline? FERC did all it could to save it but there?s some promising court progress. The new unknown is Warren Buffet whose Berkshire Hathaway just bought it. But all of us, rag-tag and bobble-tailed, don?t mind the unknown? From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 12:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Indigenous rights Amazing! What a huge victory for Indigenous people. And it comes as the Standing Rock Sioux stopped the pipeline running through their land. sure enough the times, they are a changing. mike On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 9:43 AM Martin Packer > wrote: I am delighted to see that the US supreme court has ruled that the state of Oklahoma must recognize the treaty signed long ago with indigenous peoples. If Congress wants to reject that treaty it will have to do so explicitly, and that is likely to be a struggle! As one NY Times reader notes, "the question of what the impact is on the state's regulatory authority over the land in question is coming!? If slavery was the original sin of the US this was only by a small margin, since conflict with indigenous peoples had begun by 1622. The US government went on to authorize over 1,500 wars, attacks and raids on Indians. (Perhaps as someone born in the UK I should add that I am well aware of the British role in this.) Martin https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/us/supreme-court-oklahoma-mcgirt-creek-nation.html__;!!Mih3wA!WVT0aCydh4vxOGpdtpO-UR8RGa8MfZU8jx8n0G-xrm1fFuRZCr-_Ov-Vvc_6dYE-RoBL-g$ Supreme Court Rules Nearly Half of Oklahoma Is Indian Reservation The 5-4 decision could reshape criminal justice in eastern Oklahoma by preventing state authorities from prosecuting Native Americans -- It is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai Proverb --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WVT0aCydh4vxOGpdtpO-UR8RGa8MfZU8jx8n0G-xrm1fFuRZCr-_Ov-Vvc_6dYE2-afNLA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/957c987b/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 55151 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/957c987b/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 53721 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200709/957c987b/attachment-0001.jpe From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Jul 9 21:11:55 2020 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (Mike Cole) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 04:11:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] AERA Message-ID: I just stumbled over this notification concerning the AERA cultural historical sig. less than two weeks to go. Seems as if several conversations on XMCA could contribute to the sig?s program. Fyi Mike https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/aerasig_ch/status/1280884442840682496?s=12__;!!Mih3wA!XPHmnmYkCBOrvpgFqk2jE10YEgaWePxFXZhursv4r_tVUseljSow4_U3-oMN5gk90HNgYQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200710/84e91389/attachment.html From mike.rifino@gmail.com Fri Jul 10 08:03:56 2020 From: mike.rifino@gmail.com (Michael Rifino) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 11:03:56 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: AERA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (apologies if this is a double post) Thank you, Mike. Below is the Call for Submissions for the Cultural-Historical Research SIG of AERA. This was just posted on Cultural Praxis . For all Cultural-Historical SIG/AERA updates and announcements, please be sure to follow us on twitter (@aerasig_ch ) and facebook (search: Cultural Historical Special Interest Group). Thank you! Best, Mike Rifino Ph.D. Student, Developmental Psychology Website/Communications Chair of SIG 30 (AERA) The Graduate Center at the City University of New York mrifino@gradcenter.cuny.edu ----------------------------------------------- Dear colleagues, We are looking forward to receiving interesting paper proposals for the forthcoming *Cultural-Historical Research Special Interest Group (SIG #30)* of the AERA Annual Meeting taking place in Orlando, Florida, April 9-12, 2021. The Cultural-Historical Research Special Interest Group (SIG #30) of the American Educational Research Association (AERA) is a diverse grouping of researchers who approach learning, development and social change from a cultural-historical, socio-cultural and/or activity theoretic perspective. Common themes of research and conversation draw on Vygotsky, Luria, Leont?ev, Bakhtin, Mead, and many others. The aim of this SIG is to bring together scholars applying cultural-historical-theoretical frameworks, and to develop their use further in order to foster the exchange and development of new ideas. We welcome innovative, theoretical and empirical work as well as micro- and macro-level analysis within historically evolving formal and non-formal contexts. We encourage proposals on a range of topics including, but not limited to*,* cultural-historical research that connects with art; activism; theoretical explorations with Critical Theory, Critical Race Theory, Queer Theory, Critical Indigenous Theory, Feminist Theory, Organization Studies, Learning Sciences, Education, Cultural Psychology, Human-Computer Interaction, Dialogism and Discourse Theory, and related approaches. Also, methodological innovations that bridge C-H theory with lenses such as Participatory Action Research, Design-based Research, Visual Methods, etc. are of interest. Please note that we are also developing sessions exploring what it means to be human in the Anthropocene Era and highlighting how C-H approaches to answer that question. If you have any work related to this SIG theme please share your proposals with us. *Submission period ends: Wednesday July 22, 2020 (11:59 pm, PDT). * Please encourage your colleagues to submit to our SIG #30 even if they are not yet members. Please note the AERA Guidelines and criteria for the submissions. See more information about our SIG #30 . See more information about the AERA 2021 conference . If you have any questions please contact: jheeok@umass.edu; jose.lizarraga@colorado.edu; anu.kajamaa@helsinki.fi or arturo.cortez@colorado.edu Best wishes, officers of the *SIG #30:* *Co-Chairs*: *Arturo Cortez*, University of Colorado Boulder & *Anu Kajamaa*, University of Helsinki *Co-Program Chairs*: *Heeok Jeong*, University of Massachusetts, Amherst & *Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga*, University of Colorado Boulder, *Secretary/Treasurer*: *Alfredo Jornet Gil*, University of Oslo & *Kalonji Nzinga*, University of Colorado Boulder, and *Website/Communications Chair*: *Mike Rifino*, The Graduate Center On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 AM Mike Cole wrote: > I just stumbled over this notification concerning the AERA cultural > historical sig. less than two weeks to go. > Seems as if several conversations on XMCA could contribute to the sig?s > program. > Fyi > Mike > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/aerasig_ch/status/1280884442840682496?s=12__;!!Mih3wA!XbQqQAco554iMfJNCqS9AaOaQ9OTdtle7x5-0S6KGNFPfaYLp9NbqWO1DbhgUze_ikwwng$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200710/6ab11f05/attachment.html From mcole@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 10 11:46:57 2020 From: mcole@UCSD.EDU (mike cole) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 11:46:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: AERA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike R -- Great statement on the current foci of the Sig. Is there any special theme that CH-sig members are expected to focus on? I just checked the AERA website and it says "Accepting Educational Responsibility." It is not clear to me what that signals. Is it safe to assume that remote participation will be included? mike On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:07 AM Michael Rifino wrote: > (apologies if this is a double post) Thank you, Mike. Below is the Call > for Submissions for the Cultural-Historical Research SIG of AERA. This was > just posted on Cultural Praxis > > . > > For all Cultural-Historical SIG/AERA updates and announcements, please be > sure to follow us on twitter (@aerasig_ch > ) > and facebook (search: Cultural Historical Special Interest Group). Thank > you! > > Best, > > Mike Rifino > Ph.D. Student, Developmental Psychology > Website/Communications Chair of SIG 30 (AERA) > The Graduate Center at the City University of New York > mrifino@gradcenter.cuny.edu > ----------------------------------------------- > > Dear colleagues, > > We are looking forward to receiving interesting paper proposals for the > forthcoming *Cultural-Historical Research Special Interest Group (SIG > #30)* of the AERA Annual Meeting taking place in Orlando, Florida, April > 9-12, 2021. > > The Cultural-Historical Research Special Interest Group (SIG #30) of the > American Educational Research Association (AERA) is a diverse grouping of > researchers who approach learning, development and social change from a > cultural-historical, socio-cultural and/or activity theoretic perspective. > Common themes of research and conversation draw on Vygotsky, Luria, > Leont?ev, Bakhtin, Mead, and many others. The aim of this SIG is to bring > together scholars applying cultural-historical-theoretical frameworks, and > to develop their use further in order to foster the exchange and > development of new ideas. We welcome innovative, theoretical and empirical > work as well as micro- and macro-level analysis within historically > evolving formal and non-formal contexts. We encourage proposals on a range > of topics including, but not limited to*,* cultural-historical research > that connects with art; activism; theoretical explorations with Critical > Theory, Critical Race Theory, Queer Theory, Critical Indigenous Theory, > Feminist Theory, Organization Studies, Learning Sciences, Education, > Cultural Psychology, Human-Computer Interaction, Dialogism and Discourse > Theory, and related approaches. Also, methodological innovations that > bridge C-H theory with lenses such as Participatory Action Research, > Design-based Research, Visual Methods, etc. are of interest. Please note > that we are also developing sessions exploring what it means to be human in > the Anthropocene Era and highlighting how C-H approaches to answer that > question. If you have any work related to this SIG theme please share your > proposals with us. > > *Submission period ends: Wednesday July 22, 2020 (11:59 pm, PDT). * Please > encourage your colleagues to submit to our SIG #30 even if they are not yet > members. > Please note the AERA Guidelines > and > criteria for the submissions. See more information about our SIG #30 > . > See more information about the AERA 2021 conference > > . > > If you have any questions please contact: jheeok@umass.edu; > jose.lizarraga@colorado.edu; anu.kajamaa@helsinki.fi or > arturo.cortez@colorado.edu > > Best wishes, officers of the *SIG #30:* > *Co-Chairs*: *Arturo Cortez*, University of Colorado Boulder & *Anu > Kajamaa*, University of Helsinki > *Co-Program Chairs*: *Heeok Jeong*, University of Massachusetts, Amherst > & *Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga*, University of Colorado Boulder, > *Secretary/Treasurer*: *Alfredo Jornet Gil*, University of Oslo & *Kalonji > Nzinga*, University of Colorado Boulder, and > *Website/Communications Chair*: *Mike Rifino*, The Graduate Center > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 AM Mike Cole wrote: > >> I just stumbled over this notification concerning the AERA cultural >> historical sig. less than two weeks to go. >> Seems as if several conversations on XMCA could contribute to the sig?s >> program. >> Fyi >> Mike >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/aerasig_ch/status/1280884442840682496?s=12__;!!Mih3wA!Xq0rFu_iwHaAeszE_BZPUbST8HCnX1kYVr5sc3T52XJUeIWbSjWwOD6N6neiEH4HwEzdpQ$ >> >> > -- It is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai Proverb --------------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xq0rFu_iwHaAeszE_BZPUbST8HCnX1kYVr5sc3T52XJUeIWbSjWwOD6N6neiEH622jCnfQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200710/c3752af1/attachment.html From mike.rifino@gmail.com Sat Jul 11 05:30:56 2020 From: mike.rifino@gmail.com (Michael Rifino) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 08:30:56 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: AERA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, We welcome submissions that align with AERA 2021?s theme of ?Accepting Educational Responsibility? (here is AERA?s extended description ). At the same time, we also welcome submissions from a diverse range of topics that may go a different route than ?Accepting Educational Responsibility?. As for remote participation, our SIG will look into how we can acquire the equipment to be inclusive for remote participation. Currently, AERA is moving forward with an in-person conference, but if that is no longer feasible as we move closer to AERA date, then they will consider viable alternatives. Best, Mike R. On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:49 PM mike cole wrote: > Hi Mike R -- > > Great statement on the current foci of the Sig. > > Is there any special theme that CH-sig members are expected to focus on? > I just checked the AERA > website and it says "Accepting Educational Responsibility." It is not > clear to me what that signals. > > Is it safe to assume that remote participation will be included? > > mike > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:07 AM Michael Rifino > wrote: > >> (apologies if this is a double post) Thank you, Mike. Below is the Call >> for Submissions for the Cultural-Historical Research SIG of AERA. This was >> just posted on Cultural Praxis >> >> . >> >> For all Cultural-Historical SIG/AERA updates and announcements, please be >> sure to follow us on twitter (@aerasig_ch >> ) >> and facebook (search: Cultural Historical Special Interest Group). Thank >> you! >> >> Best, >> >> Mike Rifino >> Ph.D. Student, Developmental Psychology >> Website/Communications Chair of SIG 30 (AERA) >> The Graduate Center at the City University of New York >> mrifino@gradcenter.cuny.edu >> ----------------------------------------------- >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> We are looking forward to receiving interesting paper proposals for the >> forthcoming *Cultural-Historical Research Special Interest Group (SIG >> #30)* of the AERA Annual Meeting taking place in Orlando, Florida, April >> 9-12, 2021. >> >> The Cultural-Historical Research Special Interest Group (SIG #30) of the >> American Educational Research Association (AERA) is a diverse grouping of >> researchers who approach learning, development and social change from a >> cultural-historical, socio-cultural and/or activity theoretic perspective. >> Common themes of research and conversation draw on Vygotsky, Luria, >> Leont?ev, Bakhtin, Mead, and many others. The aim of this SIG is to bring >> together scholars applying cultural-historical-theoretical frameworks, and >> to develop their use further in order to foster the exchange and >> development of new ideas. We welcome innovative, theoretical and empirical >> work as well as micro- and macro-level analysis within historically >> evolving formal and non-formal contexts. We encourage proposals on a range >> of topics including, but not limited to*,* cultural-historical research >> that connects with art; activism; theoretical explorations with Critical >> Theory, Critical Race Theory, Queer Theory, Critical Indigenous Theory, >> Feminist Theory, Organization Studies, Learning Sciences, Education, >> Cultural Psychology, Human-Computer Interaction, Dialogism and Discourse >> Theory, and related approaches. Also, methodological innovations that >> bridge C-H theory with lenses such as Participatory Action Research, >> Design-based Research, Visual Methods, etc. are of interest. Please note >> that we are also developing sessions exploring what it means to be human in >> the Anthropocene Era and highlighting how C-H approaches to answer that >> question. If you have any work related to this SIG theme please share your >> proposals with us. >> >> *Submission period ends: Wednesday July 22, 2020 (11:59 pm, PDT). * Please >> encourage your colleagues to submit to our SIG #30 even if they are not yet >> members. >> Please note the AERA Guidelines >> and >> criteria for the submissions. See more information about our SIG #30 >> . >> See more information about the AERA 2021 conference >> >> . >> >> If you have any questions please contact: jheeok@umass.edu; >> jose.lizarraga@colorado.edu; anu.kajamaa@helsinki.fi or >> arturo.cortez@colorado.edu >> >> Best wishes, officers of the *SIG #30:* >> *Co-Chairs*: *Arturo Cortez*, University of Colorado Boulder & *Anu >> Kajamaa*, University of Helsinki >> *Co-Program Chairs*: *Heeok Jeong*, University of Massachusetts, Amherst >> & *Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga*, University of Colorado Boulder, >> *Secretary/Treasurer*: *Alfredo Jornet Gil*, University of Oslo & *Kalonji >> Nzinga*, University of Colorado Boulder, and >> *Website/Communications Chair*: *Mike Rifino*, The Graduate Center >> >> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:01 AM Mike Cole wrote: >> >>> I just stumbled over this notification concerning the AERA cultural >>> historical sig. less than two weeks to go. >>> Seems as if several conversations on XMCA could contribute to the sig?s >>> program. >>> Fyi >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/aerasig_ch/status/1280884442840682496?s=12__;!!Mih3wA!REHDacdgb1doV0FrHym7urg0mrc1kLg3ChPXITLCFJcliaPo4elZUDIJdc21iZ27Lns7Tw$ >>> >>> >> > > -- > > It is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai > Proverb > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!REHDacdgb1doV0FrHym7urg0mrc1kLg3ChPXITLCFJcliaPo4elZUDIJdc21iZ0IJxNTFw$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200711/944c1bc1/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sat Jul 11 05:36:20 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 08:36:20 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A practical request (re: memory development) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello! I appreciate the variety of responses to my request for ideas. Thank you. For my own (and anyone else's) convenience, I am gathering the responses here: The question was: "If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially from a disruption in the child's process of development of the higher psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts?" Your answers include: 1. Developing pre- or early concepts: - Chain complex: playing the Korean word game, ???? (e.g., Round 1: Monday-->Daytime-->Timely--"Lytic--"Tick-tock"--"toxin"--"inform".... Round Two is when you try to remember as many of the words as you can in the form of a story.) - Diffuse complexes: mimicking ?? paternal-line offerings by brainstorming ideas for honoring the maternal line of ancestors - Pseudoconcepts: playing the why game and asking kids to distinguish between different kinds of "because"; reverse-autobiographies 2. Checking out Titiana Akhutina's related work 3. Trying to capitalize on the link between memory power and subject interest/enjoyment 4. Helping the child to use and develop metacognition 5. Designing "instruction" so that what is to be remembered is located within the structure of the activity (see 'active orientation'); focusing upon understanding rather than memory (e.g., understanding 'techniques of recall' rather than mere 'memorization of specific info'); being mindful of the distinction between understanding and knowing 6. Using 'iconic memory' to associate, or link, things with other images Footnotes: Item 1. For anyone interested in an explication of pre-conceptual development, including chains, complexes, and pseudoconcepts, this may be of value: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q22asz__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1AgAFGJHQ$ "What comes before thinking (Andy Blunden on pre-concepts)" Item 5: More on active orientation here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/l53asz__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1DWuVWm_Q$ Item 6. Capitalizing on 'iconic memory' reminds me of a colleague's approach to scientific vocabulary acquisition, called "In a Word, In a Symbol": https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ma3asz__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1DzfB0WOA$ Robert Chesbro, "Personalized Vocabulary Learning in the Middle School Classroom") -- a student sample here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/xg3asz__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1AK68hrrQ$ Thanks again for these and any future ideas. Sincerely, Anthony Barra On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:37 AM Huw Lloyd wrote: > Harshad, which is your personal name, please (what I would call a > Christian name), is it Harshad or Dave? > > Anthony, > > To help place Harshad's (*) experience (which is frequently reported) > within the theoretical and experimental literature of the Russian (and in > my opinion, more rigorous) aspects of the literature, design "instruction" > so that what is to be remembered (if that is actually a goal, which seems > dubious - see next paragraph) is located within the structure of the > child's activity. The child's activity is not necessarily the same thing as > the activity that the adult intends, this is one reason why I call it > active orientation. > > Another way to put this is, do not even worry about memory, focus upon > understanding instead. Or, if you are concerned about remembering anything > (like a phone number) focus upon understanding techniques of recall. Note > that by understanding, I do not mean merely knowing. This seemingly simple > epistemological distinction between understanding and knowing is an > important principle of developmental education which distinguishes it from > many conventional schooling practices. > > I'm happy to send you references, papers, or correspond offline if you > wish. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 05:16, Harshad Dave wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I am not much aware and experience with the subject matter under >> discussion.... however i share one observation that i have noted in the >> journey of my life and i hope you might have also. >> >> The memory power has strong link with our self interest in the subject >> matter. >> If parent/teacher make the subject matter very interesting for the kids, >> and get their interest tempted in the issue..... the kids / students grasps >> the same immediately and that too for a long time also. >> >> Regards, >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> On Thu, 9 Jul 2020, 08:45 mike cole, wrote: >> >>> If I were seeking professional information a child I was concerned about >>> for the reasons >>> relate, Anthony, and I was interested in how a cultural-historical >>> psychologist thinks about >>> such matters, I would check the work of Tatiana Akhutina whose writings >>> can be found on >>> Academia. >>> mike >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Anthony-- >>>> >>>> I'm conflicted. >>>> >>>> I am working on a "Capstone Design" class preparing sex education >>>> materials. It's pretty interesting stuff, because for the first time in the >>>> child's life the child is experiencing "perizhivanie" which has CONCEPTUAL >>>> content without any EXPERIENTIAL content. To me, this suggests a change in >>>> ALL psychological functions: affective perception (obviously), attention >>>> (as an immediate result) and memory (which ipso facto cannot play the same >>>> role in creating generalized representations that it once did), >>>> >>>> Now, the materials that the Gyeonggi-do provincial government developed >>>> teach AIDS/HIV prevention with something I would basically call a multiple >>>> choice/true false test. You give the child a dozen different ways in which >>>> people interact (going to the Korean sauna together, sharing chopsticks, >>>> kissing, sitting on an unwiped toilet seat, etc.) and the child has to >>>> choose the only two which actually do spread AIDS (sharing needles and >>>> having unproteced sex). This is an example of what I would call >>>> "backwash"--you start out with the test, which is essentially >>>> diagnostic and not pedagogical in design. You then work backwards. And >>>> because we all like to take the fastest and most direct route to the >>>> object, you end up teaching to the test. Which is, almost by definition, >>>> bad teaching. >>>> >>>> I'm afraid I see some of this in Nikolai's lecture. He starts out (as >>>> he often does) with a very useful distinction between tools for research >>>> and tools for pedagogy (or, in the instance of perizhivanie, between tools >>>> for research and tools for thinking about research). But in his natural >>>> enthusiasm for research there is a bit of backwash--towards making what are >>>> essentially ANALYTICAL stages into PEDAGOGICAL ones. >>>> >>>> Vygotsky derives his four stages (in T&S and also in Chapter 5 of >>>> HDHMF) from Buhler. Buhler tells us that there are three historical stages >>>> of human behavior (unconditional instincts, conditional habits, creative >>>> intelligence) and he thinks these will be useful in analyzing childhood >>>> into periods. Vygotsky agrees, but he points out that free will is none of >>>> these (think of sexual consent, and you will see--it is a higher form of >>>> behavior that owes very little to instinct, habit, or even creativity and >>>> is in some ways inimical to all three). Vygotsky also points out that ALL >>>> of these forms (including free will) are present right there in infancy, so >>>> using the to analyze childhood will involve analyzing each period that way >>>> and not simply assigning behaviors to age periods one to one. All of this >>>> suggests to me that natural memory (an instinct), naive memory (a >>>> conditional habit), external-sign-memory (creative intelligence) and >>>> "vraschivaniye" (free memory) are analytical tools and not pedagogical ones. >>>> >>>> But what would a pedagogy informed by this mean? I don't know. I think >>>> it would first of all have to be age-period-sensitive. A ten year old is >>>> after the Crisis at Seven and before the Crisis at Thirteen. The memories >>>> in question ARE experiential (they are not fantasies); they are >>>> generalized representations (e.g. chain-like narratives, diffuse complexes >>>> like family trees, and above all pseudoconcepts). Here are some activities >>>> I have used. >>>> >>>> CHAINS: You play ???? a well known word game in Korean. Round One is >>>> when each player offers a two-syllable word, repeating the the >>>> last syllable of the previous word and then adding a new syllable. In >>>> English it might go something like this: >>>> "Monday-->Daytime-->Timely--"Lytic--"Tick-tock"--"toxin"--"inform".... >>>> Round Two is when you try to remember as many of the words as you can in >>>> the form of a story. "On Monday, during the daytime, I chose a timely >>>> moment to read Leontiev's definition of lytic periods in child development >>>> and try to apply them to Sarah Cooper's impersonations of Donald Trump on >>>> Tick-tock, but the toxic masculinity which informed....etc." >>>> >>>> DIFFUSE COMPLEXES: In Korea, we do "??" offerings to four generations >>>> in the patrilineal line. Suppose you also want to honor your maternal >>>> ancestors. Can you remember anything about them? Their places of birth and >>>> death? What would a family history in the matrilineal line look like? >>>> Where would it begin and where would it end? >>>> >>>> PSEUDOCONCEPTS: This is a version of the "why" game that eight year old >>>> children sometimes play. You start out with a simple fact, like "Kids eat >>>> food". You ask why. "Because they are hungry". You ask why. etc. You then >>>> ask the child to distinguish between different kinds of "because". Another >>>> version of this involves asking the child to create an autobiography, >>>> starting with the cover and the LAST chapter, then the penulitmate one, >>>> then the one before that, etc. and then asking how they are causally >>>> related (I usually ask the kids to do this photographs if they are too >>>> young....) >>>> >>>> (Mutatis mutandis...as you can see, it's sex education all the way >>>> down!) >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1B3Smklog$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1DYLLjMEQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good afternoon ~ >>>>> >>>>> I come to you (as a parent and as a teacher) seeking advice and >>>>> information, knowing this listserv is one of the best collective resources >>>>> on the subject at hand. Thank you in advance for your thoughts . . . >>>>> >>>>> FIRST, here is the question: >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially >>>>> from a disruption in the child?s process of development of the >>>>> higher psychological function of memory -- what are some >>>>> suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in >>>>> order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> SECOND, here is the theory (and source) behind the question: >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Vygotsky?s ?Law of 4 Stages? - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q3p7rz__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1A3gc_Jgw$ >>>>> >>>>> (also, cf. "The Problem of the Cultural Development of the Child") >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> In place of watching the (very good) 7-minute video, please refer >>>>> to these two excerpts that richly capture the video?s gist: >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> From Clip 1 (?Vygotsky?s law of 4 stages?): >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> ?This is the law that says there are 4 stages of the >>>>> development of every higher psychological function. It gives us a key to >>>>> understanding: if something goes wrong with the child, if the child has a >>>>> difficulty, maybe one of these stages didn?t go correctly. >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Stage 1 - natural behavior (no use of signs) >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Stage 2 - naive psychology (naive imitation) >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Stage 3 - external signs and operations (beyond crude >>>>> imitation but still reliant on external tools) >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Stage 4 - internal signs and operations (internalized >>>>> tools; decontextualized mediational means) >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> From Clip 2 (?How this law can help teachers and students"): >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> ?Put the child in specially created situations -- might be >>>>> play, game, competition, whatever -- and introduce these tools he or she >>>>> probably doesn?t have -- and then, having these internal tools, the child >>>>> comes back to the class equipped with the tools, and now the task will be >>>>> much easier for the child . . . because the tools are not related anymore >>>>> to the concrete task (in which they were developed). They are universal.? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> With these assumptions in mind (and choosing to accept them at least >>>>> for now), here is the question again: >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially >>>>> from a disruption in the child?s process of development of the >>>>> higher psychological function of memory -- what are some >>>>> suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in >>>>> order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sincere thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai >>> Proverb >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SIUsPxnfrXLmcYjH4mGrrIKiUqiu8sxy6aTep3gAMN2CkYp8uOGBBRSuvkSgW1BTRitGGg$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200711/f856fd84/attachment.html From ajrajala@gmail.com Sun Jul 12 15:08:22 2020 From: ajrajala@gmail.com (Antti Rajala) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 01:08:22 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Re-generating CHAT: Interesting symposium on July 2, at 5 pm Central European Summer Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all, Please note that the recording for the symposium *Learning from Learners: Power, Resistance and Learners' Voices in an Era of Uncertainty *(see below for details) presented at the EARLI SIG 10-21-25 conference on July 2, 2020, is now available for viewers at the Cultural Praxis website. This is the link to the recording https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/07/11/re-generating-chat-online-symposium-learning-from-learners-power-resistance-and-learners-voices-in-an-era-of-uncertainty/__;!!Mih3wA!UTHP7__XDysgW5GBugcWiVFsSL1CdZL8_aErW8bUTM3ENXIQWHLLfK9YwnVrYTXGYYHhrw$ The symposium was considered very successful based on the experience of the presenters as well as based on the feedback we received from the audience. About 53 persons took part in the session. Best wishes, Antti On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 23:16, Antti Rajala wrote: > Dear Xmca-folks > > As many of you know there has been an important initiative > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://re-generatingchat.com/__;!!Mih3wA!UTHP7__XDysgW5GBugcWiVFsSL1CdZL8_aErW8bUTM3ENXIQWHLLfK9YwnVrYTVqr3zupg$ to critically revise and invigorate > cultural historical theory, sponsored among others by the Mind Culture and > Activity journal. > > One outcome of this project is an online invited symposium to be held as > part of European Association of Research on Learning and Instruction > (EARLI) SIG conference on July 1-3, 2020. There is still room in the > conference and there is no fee for participation. There is also other > interesting program in the conference, see https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25__;!!Mih3wA!UTHP7__XDysgW5GBugcWiVFsSL1CdZL8_aErW8bUTM3ENXIQWHLLfK9YwnVrYTXJbeFZsg$ > > The Re-gen symposium is titled *Learning from Learners: Power, Resistance > and Learners' Voices in an Era of Uncertainty. *See the info below. (The > symposium was originally accepted in the Cultural-historical SIG of AERA > 2020 conference) > > Please note that the deadline for registrations is already on June 15th. > If interested, you can register here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://earli.org/SIG10-21-25*practical-info__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UTHP7__XDysgW5GBugcWiVFsSL1CdZL8_aErW8bUTM3ENXIQWHLLfK9YwnVrYTVl78vh8w$ > > Hope to see you there! > > On behalf of the conference organizers and the symposium organizers, > > Antti Rajala (Co-coordinator of EARLI SIG on Educational Theory) > > > *Learning from Learners: Power, Resistance and Learners' Voices in an Era > of Uncertainty* > Organisers: Charles Underwood, University of California, Berkeley, United > States; Mara Mahmood, University of California Berkeley, United States; > Sophina ChoudryUniversity of Manchester, United Kingdom; Arturo Cortez, > University of Colorado, Boulder, United States; Alfredo Jornet, University > of Oslo, Department of Teacher Education and School Research, Spain; Antti > Rajala, University of Helsinki, Finland; Michael Bakal, University of > Berkeley, United States; M. Lisette Lopez, Univeristy of California, > Berkeley, United States; Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, > United States; Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga, University of Colorado, United > States; Mike Cole, University of California, San Diego, United States > > Chairs: Mara Mahmood, University of California Berkeley, United States; > Charles Underwood, University of California, Berkeley, United States; > Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States > > Discussants: Angela Booker, University of California, San Diego, United > States; Anna Stetsenko, The Graduate Center of the City University of New > York, United States > > Abstract > > This symposium engages panelists and participants in the exploration and > re-conceptualization of ?learners? voices? from a cultural-historical > activity theory (CHAT) perspective that approaches education as a struggle > to overcome dominant paradigms that thwart learners? development and agency > in the face of an uncertain future. As part of a larger effort to > re-generate CHAT, this symposium will articulate and elaborate the concept > of "learners? voices" as a tool for guiding students, teachers, > researchers, activists, and policy-makers in re-orienting pedagogy to > cultivate their critical voices, empowering learners to become agentive > sociopolitical actors in charge of their own futures-in-the-making. The > concept of voice has been used in educational research, design and practice > for calling out and naming the hidden power relations in systems of > oppression and plays a role in learner-centered approaches (Corbett & > Wilson, 1995) culturally-relevant pedagogies (Ladson-Billings 1994; Lee, > 2006), hybrid language education (Guti?rrez, 1999), and critical race > theories and pedagogies (Mensah, 2019). > > Panelists reconceptualize voice as ?learners? voices? broadly to convey > agentive engagement in meaning making in the face of unequal power > relations. While the panelists work in different social contexts (see > presentation abstracts) all employ the concept of ?learners? voices? and > explore ways of encouraging multivoicedness, speaking truth to power, and > recognizing learners? voices as an educational necessity in an uncertain > global context. The structure of the symposium encourages dialogue designed > to promote the collective co-construction and development of the concept of > "learners? voices" as a critical tool for expanding our understanding of > teaching and learning. > > Papers > > > *Participatory Design Research for Climate Resilience and Activism* > Michael Bakal, University of Berkeley, United States > > > *?Trump Would Just Get Sucked Into a Black Hole?: Youthful Digital > Imaginings of New Futures* > Jos? Ram?n Liz?rraga, University of Colorado, United States; Arturo > Cortez, University of Colorado, Boulder, United States > > *Contradictory Activities Leading to Differential Learning in a > Heterogeneous Mathematics Classroom* > > Sophina Choudry, University of Manchester, United Kingdom > > *?It?s Rigged!?: The Disruption That Reverberates When Youth Vocalize That > the System Is Fixed* > > M. Lisette Lopez, Univeristy of California, Berkeley, United States; > Kalonji Nzinga, University of Colorado at Boulder, United States > > > *Learners? Voices and the Transformation of Schooling Towards a > Sustainable Society* > Alfredo Jornet, University of Oslo, Department of Teacher Education and > School Research, Spain; Antti Rajala, University of Helsinki, Finland > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200713/5f799a24/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Jul 12 15:55:41 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 07:55:41 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A practical request (re: memory development) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anthony: The longest poem in any language--I think--is the medieval Tibetan epic of King Gesar: there are about a million verses, more or less. I went once went to an abridged recitation (without notes of any kind) that lasted four days. Here is a very short extract done for Chinese television: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGIwvBmwZcM__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ7MgNk-fg$ In one of Vygotsky's very last lectures on school age, he asks the question of why children remember "thoughts" better than "images" and better than "structural material". As Andy says, for a three year old with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail (which is why his account of syncretism looks like a train ride instead of like the development of Christianity in Europe, which is what Piaget's own account references). So, as a linguist, I have always thought of this as meaning that we remember word meanings better than word sounds and better than grammatical patterns. But of course this is not just true of children, and of course it's not at all true of the recitations of King Gesar: the epic is often recited in an ancient form of Tibetan that is no longer a living language, and so the images and structures must be rattled off by heart. So yesterday we were translating a chapter in the Pedology of the Adolescent on the formation of higher forms of memory. Some of this material is similar to Chapter Ten of HDHMF (The History of the Development of the Higher Mental Functions) but not all: the basic idea is that higher forms of memory are higher in that they are volitional--voluntary--under intellectual control. That is why its easy for a child to remember a story with twenty new incidents but very difficult to remember even a short conversation that has twenty new words or twenty new grammatical structures. Bruner's account of "narrative" is that it is autobiography--it builds the child's all-important sense of SELF. Han Hee-jeung and I tried to demonstrate that this wasn't true in Korean (see link below): Korean has very different rules for the kinds of Subjects, Expectation-of-nominals, Linearization patterns and Focalizations that Bruner said were key to children's autobiographies and to their concept of self. But what Korean narratives really DO accomplish is volitional memory. They turn every Korean child into a King Gesar performer. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article with Han Hee-jeung in Language and Education,Volume 33, 2019 - Issue 6 'A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by Korean children' https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663?journalCode=rlae20__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ5Iy4cmcw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ5EoUnxSw$ On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 9:39 PM Anthony Barra wrote: > Hello! I appreciate the variety of responses to my request for ideas. > Thank you. > > For my own (and anyone else's) convenience, I am gathering the responses > here: > > The question was: "If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- > potentially from a disruption in the child's process of development of the > higher psychological function of memory -- what are some suggestions for A) > developing this function in non-academic contexts, in order to B) increase > the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts?" > > Your answers include: > > 1. Developing pre- or early concepts: > > - Chain complex: playing the Korean word game, ???? (e.g., Round 1: > Monday-->Daytime-->Timely--"Lytic--"Tick-tock"--"toxin"--"inform".... > Round Two is when you try to remember as many of the words as you can in > the form of a story.) > - Diffuse complexes: mimicking ?? paternal-line offerings by > brainstorming ideas for honoring the maternal line of ancestors > - Pseudoconcepts: playing the why game and asking kids to distinguish > between different kinds of "because"; reverse-autobiographies > > 2. Checking out Titiana Akhutina's related work > > 3. Trying to capitalize on the link between memory power and subject > interest/enjoyment > > 4. Helping the child to use and develop metacognition > > 5. Designing "instruction" so that what is to be remembered is located > within the structure of the activity (see 'active orientation'); focusing > upon understanding rather than memory (e.g., understanding 'techniques of > recall' rather than mere 'memorization of specific info'); being mindful of > the distinction between understanding and knowing > > 6. Using 'iconic memory' to associate, or link, things with other images > > Footnotes: > Item 1. For anyone interested in an explication of pre-conceptual > development, including chains, complexes, and pseudoconcepts, this may be > of value: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q22asz__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ6sdRtipQ$ > > "What comes before thinking (Andy Blunden on pre-concepts)" > Item 5: More on active orientation here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/l53asz__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ6AODNydg$ > > Item 6. Capitalizing on 'iconic memory' reminds me of a colleague's > approach to scientific vocabulary acquisition, called "In a Word, In a > Symbol": > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/ma3asz__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ4eqnQ47g$ > > Robert Chesbro, "Personalized Vocabulary Learning in the Middle School > Classroom") -- a student sample here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/xg3asz__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ718xgKGA$ > > > Thanks again for these and any future ideas. > > Sincerely, > > Anthony Barra > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:37 AM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> Harshad, which is your personal name, please (what I would call a >> Christian name), is it Harshad or Dave? >> >> Anthony, >> >> To help place Harshad's (*) experience (which is frequently reported) >> within the theoretical and experimental literature of the Russian (and in >> my opinion, more rigorous) aspects of the literature, design "instruction" >> so that what is to be remembered (if that is actually a goal, which seems >> dubious - see next paragraph) is located within the structure of the >> child's activity. The child's activity is not necessarily the same thing as >> the activity that the adult intends, this is one reason why I call it >> active orientation. >> >> Another way to put this is, do not even worry about memory, focus upon >> understanding instead. Or, if you are concerned about remembering anything >> (like a phone number) focus upon understanding techniques of recall. Note >> that by understanding, I do not mean merely knowing. This seemingly simple >> epistemological distinction between understanding and knowing is an >> important principle of developmental education which distinguishes it from >> many conventional schooling practices. >> >> I'm happy to send you references, papers, or correspond offline if you >> wish. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 05:16, Harshad Dave wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I am not much aware and experience with the subject matter under >>> discussion.... however i share one observation that i have noted in the >>> journey of my life and i hope you might have also. >>> >>> The memory power has strong link with our self interest in the subject >>> matter. >>> If parent/teacher make the subject matter very interesting for the kids, >>> and get their interest tempted in the issue..... the kids / students grasps >>> the same immediately and that too for a long time also. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Harshad Dave >>> >>> On Thu, 9 Jul 2020, 08:45 mike cole, wrote: >>> >>>> If I were seeking professional information a child I was concerned >>>> about for the reasons >>>> relate, Anthony, and I was interested in how a cultural-historical >>>> psychologist thinks about >>>> such matters, I would check the work of Tatiana Akhutina whose writings >>>> can be found on >>>> Academia. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Anthony-- >>>>> >>>>> I'm conflicted. >>>>> >>>>> I am working on a "Capstone Design" class preparing sex education >>>>> materials. It's pretty interesting stuff, because for the first time in the >>>>> child's life the child is experiencing "perizhivanie" which has CONCEPTUAL >>>>> content without any EXPERIENTIAL content. To me, this suggests a change in >>>>> ALL psychological functions: affective perception (obviously), attention >>>>> (as an immediate result) and memory (which ipso facto cannot play the same >>>>> role in creating generalized representations that it once did), >>>>> >>>>> Now, the materials that the Gyeonggi-do provincial government >>>>> developed teach AIDS/HIV prevention with something I would basically call a >>>>> multiple choice/true false test. You give the child a dozen different ways >>>>> in which people interact (going to the Korean sauna together, sharing >>>>> chopsticks, kissing, sitting on an unwiped toilet seat, etc.) and the child >>>>> has to choose the only two which actually do spread AIDS (sharing needles >>>>> and having unproteced sex). This is an example of what I would call >>>>> "backwash"--you start out with the test, which is essentially >>>>> diagnostic and not pedagogical in design. You then work backwards. And >>>>> because we all like to take the fastest and most direct route to the >>>>> object, you end up teaching to the test. Which is, almost by definition, >>>>> bad teaching. >>>>> >>>>> I'm afraid I see some of this in Nikolai's lecture. He starts out (as >>>>> he often does) with a very useful distinction between tools for research >>>>> and tools for pedagogy (or, in the instance of perizhivanie, between tools >>>>> for research and tools for thinking about research). But in his natural >>>>> enthusiasm for research there is a bit of backwash--towards making what are >>>>> essentially ANALYTICAL stages into PEDAGOGICAL ones. >>>>> >>>>> Vygotsky derives his four stages (in T&S and also in Chapter 5 of >>>>> HDHMF) from Buhler. Buhler tells us that there are three historical stages >>>>> of human behavior (unconditional instincts, conditional habits, creative >>>>> intelligence) and he thinks these will be useful in analyzing childhood >>>>> into periods. Vygotsky agrees, but he points out that free will is none of >>>>> these (think of sexual consent, and you will see--it is a higher form of >>>>> behavior that owes very little to instinct, habit, or even creativity and >>>>> is in some ways inimical to all three). Vygotsky also points out that ALL >>>>> of these forms (including free will) are present right there in infancy, so >>>>> using the to analyze childhood will involve analyzing each period that way >>>>> and not simply assigning behaviors to age periods one to one. All of this >>>>> suggests to me that natural memory (an instinct), naive memory (a >>>>> conditional habit), external-sign-memory (creative intelligence) and >>>>> "vraschivaniye" (free memory) are analytical tools and not pedagogical ones. >>>>> >>>>> But what would a pedagogy informed by this mean? I don't know. I think >>>>> it would first of all have to be age-period-sensitive. A ten year old is >>>>> after the Crisis at Seven and before the Crisis at Thirteen. The memories >>>>> in question ARE experiential (they are not fantasies); they are >>>>> generalized representations (e.g. chain-like narratives, diffuse complexes >>>>> like family trees, and above all pseudoconcepts). Here are some activities >>>>> I have used. >>>>> >>>>> CHAINS: You play ???? a well known word game in Korean. Round One is >>>>> when each player offers a two-syllable word, repeating the the >>>>> last syllable of the previous word and then adding a new syllable. In >>>>> English it might go something like this: >>>>> "Monday-->Daytime-->Timely--"Lytic--"Tick-tock"--"toxin"--"inform".... >>>>> Round Two is when you try to remember as many of the words as you can in >>>>> the form of a story. "On Monday, during the daytime, I chose a timely >>>>> moment to read Leontiev's definition of lytic periods in child development >>>>> and try to apply them to Sarah Cooper's impersonations of Donald Trump on >>>>> Tick-tock, but the toxic masculinity which informed....etc." >>>>> >>>>> DIFFUSE COMPLEXES: In Korea, we do "??" offerings to four generations >>>>> in the patrilineal line. Suppose you also want to honor your maternal >>>>> ancestors. Can you remember anything about them? Their places of birth and >>>>> death? What would a family history in the matrilineal line look like? >>>>> Where would it begin and where would it end? >>>>> >>>>> PSEUDOCONCEPTS: This is a version of the "why" game that eight year >>>>> old children sometimes play. You start out with a simple fact, like "Kids >>>>> eat food". You ask why. "Because they are hungry". You ask why. etc. You >>>>> then ask the child to distinguish between different kinds of "because". >>>>> Another version of this involves asking the child to create an >>>>> autobiography, starting with the cover and the LAST chapter, then the >>>>> penulitmate one, then the one before that, etc. and then asking how they >>>>> are causally related (I usually ask the kids to do this photographs if they >>>>> are too young....) >>>>> >>>>> (Mutatis mutandis...as you can see, it's sex education all the way >>>>> down!) >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ78iHhnbA$ >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ5EoUnxSw$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:53 AM Anthony Barra >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon ~ >>>>>> >>>>>> I come to you (as a parent and as a teacher) seeking advice and >>>>>> information, knowing this listserv is one of the best collective resources >>>>>> on the subject at hand. Thank you in advance for your thoughts . . . >>>>>> >>>>>> FIRST, here is the question: >>>>>> >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially >>>>>> from a disruption in the child?s process of development of the >>>>>> higher psychological function of memory -- what are some >>>>>> suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in >>>>>> order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> SECOND, here is the theory (and source) behind the question: >>>>>> >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> Vygotsky?s ?Law of 4 Stages? - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/q3p7rz__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ4FqqYSFg$ >>>>>> >>>>>> (also, cf. "The Problem of the Cultural Development of the Child") >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> In place of watching the (very good) 7-minute video, please refer >>>>>> to these two excerpts that richly capture the video?s gist: >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> From Clip 1 (?Vygotsky?s law of 4 stages?): >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> ?This is the law that says there are 4 stages of the >>>>>> development of every higher psychological function. It gives us a key to >>>>>> understanding: if something goes wrong with the child, if the child has a >>>>>> difficulty, maybe one of these stages didn?t go correctly. >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> Stage 1 - natural behavior (no use of signs) >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> Stage 2 - naive psychology (naive imitation) >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> Stage 3 - external signs and operations (beyond crude >>>>>> imitation but still reliant on external tools) >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> Stage 4 - internal signs and operations (internalized >>>>>> tools; decontextualized mediational means) >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> From Clip 2 (?How this law can help teachers and students"): >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> ?Put the child in specially created situations -- might be >>>>>> play, game, competition, whatever -- and introduce these tools he or she >>>>>> probably doesn?t have -- and then, having these internal tools, the child >>>>>> comes back to the class equipped with the tools, and now the task will be >>>>>> much easier for the child . . . because the tools are not related anymore >>>>>> to the concrete task (in which they were developed). They are universal.? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> With these assumptions in mind (and choosing to accept them at least >>>>>> for now), here is the question again: >>>>>> >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>>>> If a child (age 10) has an underdeveloped memory -- potentially >>>>>> from a disruption in the child?s process of development of the >>>>>> higher psychological function of memory -- what are some >>>>>> suggestions for A) developing this function in non-academic contexts, in >>>>>> order to B) increase the likelihood of transfer into academic contexts? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincere thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Anthony >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is unwise to run after people for their own good- Traditional Vai >>>> Proverb >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xr28o07FEUbLWjkBc_dWWx3-S29tJZdKoRSZHTFjPlhHvk4A0VYpw_mjF0HiBZ6xu2nXVg$ >>>> >>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>>> >>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >>>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200713/84720a4b/attachment.html From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Mon Jul 13 10:36:41 2020 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:36:41 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Solidnet | CP of Turkey, Statement of TKP on the transformation of Hagia Sophia into a mosque Message-ID: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.solidnet.org/article/CP-of-Turkey-Statement-ofTKP-on-the-transformation-of-Hagia-Sophia-into-a-mosque/__;!!Mih3wA!QGdIxrV2L3-ySyS2-b6WchBDAwCPBjD6syua2mkO-XHiQySk32TW-YWRr2cRKqAoqTAIpw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200713/a0a19bb2/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Jul 13 11:20:01 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:20:01 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Solidnet | CP of Turkey, Statement of TKP on the transformation of Hagia Sophia into a mosque In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <740488C7-F4E9-4B9A-82CC-0CE7FA22E533@gmail.com> Thank you, Ulvi. Not unlike Trump?s waving a Christian Bible for a photo op in Lafayette Park near the White House, only after a violent dispersal of peaceful protestors there. Lafayette was a French revolutionary instrumental in our war of independence. In the name of Christianity and patriotism the Trumpster tramples on. Henry > On Jul 13, 2020, at 11:36 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.solidnet.org/article/CP-of-Turkey-Statement-ofTKP-on-the-transformation-of-Hagia-Sophia-into-a-mosque/__;!!Mih3wA!X-OId88nuA5r2OjKNjJG2BevmTFixoTRXvumWw5RmKReDzZ55o6MPshUhvaOwuFURLEqiA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200713/cc03d28f/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Jul 13 18:52:50 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:52:50 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Solidnet | CP of Turkey, Statement of TKP on the transformation of Hagia Sophia into a mosque In-Reply-To: <740488C7-F4E9-4B9A-82CC-0CE7FA22E533@gmail.com> References: <740488C7-F4E9-4B9A-82CC-0CE7FA22E533@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Ulvi and Henry. I am rather fond of mosque-going and I don't really care whether people call it a mosque, a church, or a museum. Haga Sophia, though, is a holy place for cultural historical theory, because it was the first pendentive dome, and pendentives are what Stephen J. Gould really meant when he wrote about "spandrels" in the Church of San Marco. They are a feature of cultural evolution which appears, often unconsciously, for one function but is consciously "exapted" for a very different one. The pendentives that link the dome to the arches just appeared in order to get a round dome to sit on a square hole, but they became one of the most beautiful features of Byzantine architecture. The best example of exaptation: human speech, the exaptation of digestive and respiratory organs for interpersonal communication. And one of the most beautiful examples of human speech is the Qur'an--something quite impossible in English but almost inevitable in Arabic, a kind of prose that rhymes. Like Hagia Sophia itself, it has an aesthetic power quite beyond the power of right wing populism to detract from or even exapt. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T679OAfq0UpcQZbCjd8jDXFh5VAIMVGEIMauM5PYj0WxHYh7jCK02JnvycqNSOcICJJPsA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T679OAfq0UpcQZbCjd8jDXFh5VAIMVGEIMauM5PYj0WxHYh7jCK02JnvycqNSOfBlkPOjg$ On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 3:21 AM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Thank you, Ulvi. > Not unlike Trump?s waving a Christian Bible for a photo op in Lafayette > Park near the White House, only after a violent dispersal of peaceful > protestors there. Lafayette was a French revolutionary instrumental in our > war of independence. In the name of Christianity and patriotism the > Trumpster tramples on. > Henry > > > On Jul 13, 2020, at 11:36 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.solidnet.org/article/CP-of-Turkey-Statement-ofTKP-on-the-transformation-of-Hagia-Sophia-into-a-mosque/__;!!Mih3wA!T679OAfq0UpcQZbCjd8jDXFh5VAIMVGEIMauM5PYj0WxHYh7jCK02JnvycqNSOcV6piWaA$ > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200714/68bf4ddf/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Jul 15 14:36:00 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 15:36:00 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Gordon Wells Message-ID: Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. -greg ================= Begin forwarded message Colleagues, It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the sudden passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his bike Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. Matt Matthew E. Poehner Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics President, International Association for Cognitive Education and Psychology Associate Editor, *Language and Sociocultural Theory* The Pennsylvania State University Department of Curriculum and Instruction 159 Chambers Building University Park, PA 16802 814-865-2161 -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!VRy6jSUwl0Kb_amKGVqBpTBWtGAn_XJyZlFGRT5FD_AspPxgPKsi1owAqkPEjmI$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!VRy6jSUwl0Kb_amKGVqBpTBWtGAn_XJyZlFGRT5FD_AspPxgPKsi1owAeubQTGQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200715/7df413a0/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Wed Jul 15 15:11:22 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:11:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> Oh no, these are terrible news. When I started at InterMedia in Oslo around 2010, Gordon Well?s Dialogic Inquiry was still one of the core references informing much of the work that we were and continue doing on education. My condolences to colleagues, friends, and family. And thanks for sharing, Greg. Alfredo From: on behalf of Greg Thompson Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Wednesday, 15 July 2020 at 23:40 To: "xmca-l@ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Gordon Wells Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. -greg ================= Begin forwarded message Colleagues, It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the sudden passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his bike Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. Matt Matthew E. Poehner Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics President, International Association for Cognitive Education and Psychology Associate Editor, Language and Sociocultural Theory The Pennsylvania State University Department of Curriculum and Instruction 159 Chambers Building University Park, PA 16802 814-865-2161 -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!VoOs5w78-PBK11icKqCj1l1Qf2IIjyl9BdvRxhHT0JyCa3sdgUifdDscYwSe4eQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!VoOs5w78-PBK11icKqCj1l1Qf2IIjyl9BdvRxhHT0JyCa3sdgUifdDsc2xRz42k$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200715/343f946e/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Wed Jul 15 15:11:22 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:11:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> Oh no, these are terrible news. When I started at InterMedia in Oslo around 2010, Gordon Well?s Dialogic Inquiry was still one of the core references informing much of the work that we were and continue doing on education. My condolences to colleagues, friends, and family. And thanks for sharing, Greg. Alfredo From: on behalf of Greg Thompson Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Wednesday, 15 July 2020 at 23:40 To: "xmca-l@ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Gordon Wells Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. -greg ================= Begin forwarded message Colleagues, It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the sudden passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his bike Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. Matt Matthew E. Poehner Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics President, International Association for Cognitive Education and Psychology Associate Editor, Language and Sociocultural Theory The Pennsylvania State University Department of Curriculum and Instruction 159 Chambers Building University Park, PA 16802 814-865-2161 -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Qnuqxp_iktt1s5o9jlyztUJ_xCg4uWxdc_b1jXpyYa54EyH1P2hEpTI6Sm3lVFe3CWsVAA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Qnuqxp_iktt1s5o9jlyztUJ_xCg4uWxdc_b1jXpyYa54EyH1P2hEpTI6Sm3lVFcpAHot7A$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200715/343f946e/attachment-0001.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jul 15 18:23:31 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:23:31 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells In-Reply-To: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> References: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> Message-ID: Alfredo-- What about dedicating that Vygotsky-Halliday special issue to the late, great Gordon Wells? (You know he really discovered that great metamorphic vein of thinking, in which I am still a coal-faced little mine boy....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SyvQAgDai_VrZZXKQHAZQI-5BFIdovvjzj1luADDAejsAOuTu1d4LpdPYonFCykvgwRkWg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SyvQAgDai_VrZZXKQHAZQI-5BFIdovvjzj1luADDAejsAOuTu1d4LpdPYonFCykdCoe3yQ$ On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 7:13 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Oh no, these are terrible news. When I started at InterMedia in Oslo > around 2010, Gordon Well?s *Dialogic Inquiry* was still one of the core > references informing much of the work that we were and continue doing on > education. My condolences to colleagues, friends, and family. And thanks > for sharing, Greg. > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Wednesday, 15 July 2020 at 23:40 > *To: *"xmca-l@ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Gordon Wells > > > > Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. > > It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. > > -greg > > > > ================= > > Begin forwarded message > > > > Colleagues, > > > > It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the sudden > passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his bike > Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his > wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was > rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. > Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend > to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for > Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. > > > > Matt > > > > Matthew E. Poehner > > Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction > > Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics > > President, International Association for Cognitive Education and Psychology > > Associate Editor, *Language and Sociocultural Theory* > > The Pennsylvania State University > > Department of Curriculum and Instruction > > 159 Chambers Building > > University Park, PA 16802 > > 814-865-2161 > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!SyvQAgDai_VrZZXKQHAZQI-5BFIdovvjzj1luADDAejsAOuTu1d4LpdPYonFCymyGDJv3A$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!SyvQAgDai_VrZZXKQHAZQI-5BFIdovvjzj1luADDAejsAOuTu1d4LpdPYonFCynoSvnWXA$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200716/fb1a83dc/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Thu Jul 16 01:51:00 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:51:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells In-Reply-To: References: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> Message-ID: Yes, David, great suggestion. In fact, the set of articles is coming out these days, to be part of issue 3, and we did discuss exactly that yesterday. Best, Alfredo From: on behalf of David Kellogg Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Thursday, 16 July 2020 at 03:31 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells Alfredo-- What about dedicating that Vygotsky-Halliday special issue to the late, great Gordon Wells? (You know he really discovered that great metamorphic vein of thinking, in which I am still a coal-faced little mine boy....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SGuJTOyxzQDIMBqaFXFbOHmbGmRDC3Z6n43PiqKs-rWuY0awjiJvlJiljONecEfOpLEu9w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SGuJTOyxzQDIMBqaFXFbOHmbGmRDC3Z6n43PiqKs-rWuY0awjiJvlJiljONecEeHjS35Pw$ On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 7:13 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: Oh no, these are terrible news. When I started at InterMedia in Oslo around 2010, Gordon Well?s Dialogic Inquiry was still one of the core references informing much of the work that we were and continue doing on education. My condolences to colleagues, friends, and family. And thanks for sharing, Greg. Alfredo From: > on behalf of Greg Thompson > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Wednesday, 15 July 2020 at 23:40 To: "xmca-l@ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Gordon Wells Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. -greg ================= Begin forwarded message Colleagues, It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the sudden passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his bike Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. Matt Matthew E. Poehner Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics President, International Association for Cognitive Education and Psychology Associate Editor, Language and Sociocultural Theory The Pennsylvania State University Department of Curriculum and Instruction 159 Chambers Building University Park, PA 16802 814-865-2161 -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!SGuJTOyxzQDIMBqaFXFbOHmbGmRDC3Z6n43PiqKs-rWuY0awjiJvlJiljONecEfeCSyU_A$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!SGuJTOyxzQDIMBqaFXFbOHmbGmRDC3Z6n43PiqKs-rWuY0awjiJvlJiljONecEd-SNl0sw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200716/6622378c/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jul 16 16:49:56 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 08:49:56 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells In-Reply-To: References: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> Message-ID: Yes, I see Jay Lemke's intro: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1794009__;!!Mih3wA!T_CogK1HXO0v1MSEtMt5-XEb_XJ9GP9OaC2DvzP3LaygD4CH0ehleldkrG7uoVdlnDdXsQ$ Unfortunately, I can't access it without paying an arm and a leg. Isn't there even a preview? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T_CogK1HXO0v1MSEtMt5-XEb_XJ9GP9OaC2DvzP3LaygD4CH0ehleldkrG7uoVeV6h6agw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T_CogK1HXO0v1MSEtMt5-XEb_XJ9GP9OaC2DvzP3LaygD4CH0ehleldkrG7uoVfCyYMyng$ On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 5:52 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Yes, David, great suggestion. In fact, the set of articles is coming out > these days, to be part of issue 3, and we did discuss exactly that > yesterday. Best, > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 July 2020 at 03:31 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells > > > > Alfredo-- > > > > What about dedicating that Vygotsky-Halliday special issue to the late, > great Gordon Wells? > > > > (You know he really discovered that great metamorphic vein of thinking, in > which I am still a coal-faced little mine boy....) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T_CogK1HXO0v1MSEtMt5-XEb_XJ9GP9OaC2DvzP3LaygD4CH0ehleldkrG7uoVeV6h6agw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T_CogK1HXO0v1MSEtMt5-XEb_XJ9GP9OaC2DvzP3LaygD4CH0ehleldkrG7uoVfCyYMyng$ > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 7:13 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > Oh no, these are terrible news. When I started at InterMedia in Oslo > around 2010, Gordon Well?s *Dialogic Inquiry* was still one of the core > references informing much of the work that we were and continue doing on > education. My condolences to colleagues, friends, and family. And thanks > for sharing, Greg. > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Wednesday, 15 July 2020 at 23:40 > *To: *"xmca-l@ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Gordon Wells > > > > Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. > > It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. > > -greg > > > > ================= > > Begin forwarded message > > > > Colleagues, > > > > It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the sudden > passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his bike > Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his > wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was > rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. > Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend > to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for > Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. > > > > Matt > > > > Matthew E. Poehner > > Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction > > Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics > > President, International Association for Cognitive Education and Psychology > > Associate Editor, *Language and Sociocultural Theory* > > The Pennsylvania State University > > Department of Curriculum and Instruction > > 159 Chambers Building > > University Park, PA 16802 > > 814-865-2161 > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!T_CogK1HXO0v1MSEtMt5-XEb_XJ9GP9OaC2DvzP3LaygD4CH0ehleldkrG7uoVcGJ6XHMQ$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!T_CogK1HXO0v1MSEtMt5-XEb_XJ9GP9OaC2DvzP3LaygD4CH0ehleldkrG7uoVdWi3JM2g$ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200717/14643b8b/attachment-0001.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Thu Jul 16 21:46:32 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:46:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells In-Reply-To: References: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> Message-ID: <7796FC90-C51C-4D8A-A6D8-38699C8CB0EA@uio.no> Here is the PDF for Jay?s introduction. (As I was downloading it, I noticed that Jay?s postal address may be wrong; the publisher will be fixing this before it goes to press, but the text will be the same.) As per dedicating the whole issue to Gordon Wells, which we will do in the overall editorial, if you or others in this list were interested in writing a post on/in memoriam of Gordon Wells for Cultural Praxis, let us know and get in touch through culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no Best, Alfredo From: on behalf of David Kellogg Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Friday, 17 July 2020 at 01:58 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells Yes, I see Jay Lemke's intro: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1794009__;!!Mih3wA!WhqT4r4SELf9yUfD3QZfyPMMDVMeitNdDEiz5JahrdEmuQJq28nekN7I0zolUAdV8EgFjw$ Unfortunately, I can't access it without paying an arm and a leg. Isn't there even a preview? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WhqT4r4SELf9yUfD3QZfyPMMDVMeitNdDEiz5JahrdEmuQJq28nekN7I0zolUAeOoV8n7A$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WhqT4r4SELf9yUfD3QZfyPMMDVMeitNdDEiz5JahrdEmuQJq28nekN7I0zolUAd0bblV9Q$ On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 5:52 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: Yes, David, great suggestion. In fact, the set of articles is coming out these days, to be part of issue 3, and we did discuss exactly that yesterday. Best, Alfredo From: > on behalf of David Kellogg > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 July 2020 at 03:31 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells Alfredo-- What about dedicating that Vygotsky-Halliday special issue to the late, great Gordon Wells? (You know he really discovered that great metamorphic vein of thinking, in which I am still a coal-faced little mine boy....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WhqT4r4SELf9yUfD3QZfyPMMDVMeitNdDEiz5JahrdEmuQJq28nekN7I0zolUAeOoV8n7A$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WhqT4r4SELf9yUfD3QZfyPMMDVMeitNdDEiz5JahrdEmuQJq28nekN7I0zolUAd0bblV9Q$ On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 7:13 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: Oh no, these are terrible news. When I started at InterMedia in Oslo around 2010, Gordon Well?s Dialogic Inquiry was still one of the core references informing much of the work that we were and continue doing on education. My condolences to colleagues, friends, and family. And thanks for sharing, Greg. Alfredo From: > on behalf of Greg Thompson > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Wednesday, 15 July 2020 at 23:40 To: "xmca-l@ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Gordon Wells Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. -greg ================= Begin forwarded message Colleagues, It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the sudden passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his bike Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. Matt Matthew E. Poehner Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics President, International Association for Cognitive Education and Psychology Associate Editor, Language and Sociocultural Theory The Pennsylvania State University Department of Curriculum and Instruction 159 Chambers Building University Park, PA 16802 814-865-2161 -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WhqT4r4SELf9yUfD3QZfyPMMDVMeitNdDEiz5JahrdEmuQJq28nekN7I0zolUAdBGUlz7Q$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WhqT4r4SELf9yUfD3QZfyPMMDVMeitNdDEiz5JahrdEmuQJq28nekN7I0zolUAeiqZQeMA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200717/ec65594a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Introduction to MCA symposium on Halliday Vygotsky.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 230512 bytes Desc: Introduction to MCA symposium on Halliday Vygotsky.pdf Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200717/ec65594a/attachment.pdf From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Jul 17 02:59:45 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:59:45 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] study chart of "daddy school" Message-ID: This may be relevant for those on the list interested in school / home education. Today is the last day of "school term". The schools here in the UK closed in March and partially opened again recently (June). Since their closure I have been providing a 4 hour "morning school" for our two boys (years 1 and 4 of primary school, both recently aged 6 and 9 respectively). I have been doing this for 16 weeks. This has been followed up in the afternoon by some exercises set by school teachers, which my wife has covered for. The "daddy school" started out fairly impromptu and took on more structure over time. I would describe it as a half-way house between a developmental approach and conventional schooling. Principally, this is so that it fits in with the manner of schooling presented in conventional classes. The lack of planning for a curriculum was also offset by a good amount of content ready to hand. For the older child, some key differences from a conventional approach may include: 1. High concentration of teacher-student time. 2. Concentrated focus upon subjects. E.g. 4 hours or sometimes 4 days on one activity. 3. Connection between subjects. E.g. mathematics and biology (graphs of plant growth, growth rate); history, invention and design (how things work, history of ideas, engaging with problems); history, geography, and technology (conventional human cultural history); structures of mathematical and linguistic expression (processes, forms); written articulation of thoughts across subjects, reading comprehension across subjects; language, biology and graph structures (latin taxonomies). 4. Philosophical and systems focus. Every activity relates to a consideration of what it means to know. E.g. the relations between "how", "what", and "why"; what constitutes an object; differences between the living world and virtual, simulated worlds like minecraft. 5. Articulation and covering of "difficult" subjects, or presenting rich subjects in ways accessible to the student's apprehension. Typically these are subjects several years ahead of their school curriculum. 6. Problem solving activities. 7. Taking care, having a feeling for quality. And for the younger child: 1. High concentration of teacher-student time. 2. Concentrated focus upon subjects. E.g. 4 hours or sometimes 4 days on one activity. 3. Protracted reading time. One chapter (or since June, two chapters) of his adventure story books a day. 4. Articulation and covering of "difficult" subjects, or presenting rich subjects in ways accessible to the student's apprehension. E.g. fractions, percentages, graphs. Telling the time from an analog clock, comprehension. 5. Writing stories or accounts. 6. Problem solving and building tasks (e.g. following lego instructions). 7. Taking care, having a feeling for quality, e.g. in neat writing and drawing or colouring. Attached below are copies of the "study chart" produced by the older child. The chart is not fully complete as it was produced retrospectively mid-way through the work (from two A4 ring binders of work). The numbers on the chart represent up to 15 minute units. Best, Huw -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200717/9c6e90ae/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: study_chart2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3112857 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200717/9c6e90ae/attachment-0002.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: study_chart1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3819895 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200717/9c6e90ae/attachment-0003.jpg From Peg.Griffin@att.net Fri Jul 17 10:18:11 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 13:18:11 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: study chart of "daddy school" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01d65c5e$4044a4d0$c0cdee70$@att.net> I would like to go to your school, Huw! From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 6:00 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] study chart of "daddy school" This may be relevant for those on the list interested in school / home education. Today is the last day of "school term". The schools here in the UK closed in March and partially opened again recently (June). Since their closure I have been providing a 4 hour "morning school" for our two boys (years 1 and 4 of primary school, both recently aged 6 and 9 respectively). I have been doing this for 16 weeks. This has been followed up in the afternoon by some exercises set by school teachers, which my wife has covered for. The "daddy school" started out fairly impromptu and took on more structure over time. I would describe it as a half-way house between a developmental approach and conventional schooling. Principally, this is so that it fits in with the manner of schooling presented in conventional classes. The lack of planning for a curriculum was also offset by a good amount of content ready to hand. For the older child, some key differences from a conventional approach may include: 1. High concentration of teacher-student time. 2. Concentrated focus upon subjects. E.g. 4 hours or sometimes 4 days on one activity. 3. Connection between subjects. E.g. mathematics and biology (graphs of plant growth, growth rate); history, invention and design (how things work, history of ideas, engaging with problems); history, geography, and technology (conventional human cultural history); structures of mathematical and linguistic expression (processes, forms); written articulation of thoughts across subjects, reading comprehension across subjects; language, biology and graph structures (latin taxonomies). 4. Philosophical and systems focus. Every activity relates to a consideration of what it means to know. E.g. the relations between "how", "what", and "why"; what constitutes an object; differences between the living world and virtual, simulated worlds like minecraft. 5. Articulation and covering of "difficult" subjects, or presenting rich subjects in ways accessible to the student's apprehension. Typically these are subjects several years ahead of their school curriculum. 6. Problem solving activities. 7. Taking care, having a feeling for quality. And for the younger child: 1. High concentration of teacher-student time. 2. Concentrated focus upon subjects. E.g. 4 hours or sometimes 4 days on one activity. 3. Protracted reading time. One chapter (or since June, two chapters) of his adventure story books a day. 4. Articulation and covering of "difficult" subjects, or presenting rich subjects in ways accessible to the student's apprehension. E.g. fractions, percentages, graphs. Telling the time from an analog clock, comprehension. 5. Writing stories or accounts. 6. Problem solving and building tasks (e.g. following lego instructions). 7. Taking care, having a feeling for quality, eg. in neat writing and drawing or colouring. Attached below are copies of the "study chart" produced by the older child. The chart is not fully complete as it was produced retrospectively mid-way through the work (from two A4 ring binders of work). The numbers on the chart represent up to 15 minute units. Best, Huw -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200717/0987e1b2/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jul 17 16:50:51 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 08:50:51 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells In-Reply-To: <7796FC90-C51C-4D8A-A6D8-38699C8CB0EA@uio.no> References: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> <7796FC90-C51C-4D8A-A6D8-38699C8CB0EA@uio.no> Message-ID: In almost all the compilation volumes I have read on the Halliday/Vygotsky nexus, there is a tendency towards division of labor: the Hallidayans pretty much ignore Vygotsky and the Vygotskyans pretty much ignore Halliday. Not with Gordon Wells, though. And not here either. Lemke starts off like with what he insists are THREE themes: (1) linguistic resources for making meaning (2) human development and the operation of higher mental functions (3) situated social interaction and historically evolved cultural patterns of practice Hang on! Isn't that really FIVE? At least! Not so. The operation of higher mental functions in you and in me is an instance of a historical process called human development, and situated social interaction is likewise an instance of historically evolved cultural patterns of practice. So from the get-go, Jay Lemke signs up to Hasan's understanding of the "cline of instantiation" (and the crucial distinction between instantiation on the one hand and realization on the other). Are linguistic resources simply the latest instance of making meaning? Or is it better to think of linguistic resources as "realizing" ("real"-izing, but also achieving conscious awareness of and control over) meaning-making? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WmtkVt30P9wuKiGUAd_HvO0tUOvqZH75IueTFhxapLRlL7BKtsLTCxviAq5imDoQxOJL0g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WmtkVt30P9wuKiGUAd_HvO0tUOvqZH75IueTFhxapLRlL7BKtsLTCxviAq5imDoR-syhWA$ On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:53 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Here is the PDF for Jay?s introduction. (As I was downloading it, I > noticed that Jay?s postal address may be wrong; the publisher will be > fixing this before it goes to press, but the text will be the same.) > > > > As per dedicating the whole issue to Gordon Wells, which we will do in the > overall editorial, if you or others in this list were interested in writing > a post on/in memoriam of Gordon Wells for Cultural Praxis, let us know and > get in touch through culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no > > > > Best, > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Friday, 17 July 2020 at 01:58 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells > > > > Yes, I see Jay Lemke's intro: > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1794009__;!!Mih3wA!WmtkVt30P9wuKiGUAd_HvO0tUOvqZH75IueTFhxapLRlL7BKtsLTCxviAq5imDrv5Bv3kQ$ > > > > > Unfortunately, I can't access it without paying an arm and a leg. Isn't > there even a preview? > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WmtkVt30P9wuKiGUAd_HvO0tUOvqZH75IueTFhxapLRlL7BKtsLTCxviAq5imDoQxOJL0g$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WmtkVt30P9wuKiGUAd_HvO0tUOvqZH75IueTFhxapLRlL7BKtsLTCxviAq5imDoR-syhWA$ > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 5:52 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > Yes, David, great suggestion. In fact, the set of articles is coming out > these days, to be part of issue 3, and we did discuss exactly that > yesterday. Best, > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 July 2020 at 03:31 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells > > > > Alfredo-- > > > > What about dedicating that Vygotsky-Halliday special issue to the late, > great Gordon Wells? > > > > (You know he really discovered that great metamorphic vein of thinking, in > which I am still a coal-faced little mine boy....) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WmtkVt30P9wuKiGUAd_HvO0tUOvqZH75IueTFhxapLRlL7BKtsLTCxviAq5imDoQxOJL0g$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WmtkVt30P9wuKiGUAd_HvO0tUOvqZH75IueTFhxapLRlL7BKtsLTCxviAq5imDoR-syhWA$ > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 7:13 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > Oh no, these are terrible news. When I started at InterMedia in Oslo > around 2010, Gordon Well?s *Dialogic Inquiry* was still one of the core > references informing much of the work that we were and continue doing on > education. My condolences to colleagues, friends, and family. And thanks > for sharing, Greg. > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Wednesday, 15 July 2020 at 23:40 > *To: *"xmca-l@ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Gordon Wells > > > > Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. > > It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. > > -greg > > > > ================= > > Begin forwarded message > > > > Colleagues, > > > > It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the sudden > passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his bike > Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his > wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was > rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. > Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend > to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for > Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. > > > > Matt > > > > Matthew E. Poehner > > Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction > > Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics > > President, International Association for Cognitive Education and Psychology > > Associate Editor, *Language and Sociocultural Theory* > > The Pennsylvania State University > > Department of Curriculum and Instruction > > 159 Chambers Building > > University Park, PA 16802 > > 814-865-2161 > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WmtkVt30P9wuKiGUAd_HvO0tUOvqZH75IueTFhxapLRlL7BKtsLTCxviAq5imDrvFyGeag$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WmtkVt30P9wuKiGUAd_HvO0tUOvqZH75IueTFhxapLRlL7BKtsLTCxviAq5imDoENnvuhg$ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200718/d45198f7/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jul 17 17:04:02 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 17:04:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells In-Reply-To: References: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> <7796FC90-C51C-4D8A-A6D8-38699C8CB0EA@uio.no> Message-ID: David-- It is pretty certain that most readers will not yet have read Jay's intro the LSV/Halliday/Hasan (!!) symposium. And if they are not familiar with Gordon's work, they won't get that connection either. Both seem important for us to understand. Might you have time to fill out the thoughts? I will cc Jay in case he is not reading xmca. It seems like a good opportunity to pull a bunch of people/ideas together? Hopefully mike On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 4:56 PM David Kellogg wrote: > In almost all the compilation volumes I have read on the Halliday/Vygotsky > nexus, there is a tendency towards division of labor: the Hallidayans > pretty much ignore Vygotsky and the Vygotskyans pretty much ignore Halliday. > > Not with Gordon Wells, though. And not here either. Lemke starts off like > with what he insists are THREE themes: > > (1) linguistic resources for making meaning > (2) human development and the operation of higher mental functions > (3) situated social interaction and historically evolved cultural patterns > of practice > > Hang on! Isn't that really FIVE? At least! > > Not so. The operation of higher mental functions in you and in me is an > instance of a historical process called human development, and situated > social interaction is likewise an instance of historically evolved cultural > patterns of practice. So from the get-go, Jay Lemke signs up to Hasan's > understanding of the "cline of instantiation" (and the crucial distinction > between instantiation on the one hand and realization on the other). > > Are linguistic resources simply the latest instance of making meaning? Or > is it better to think of linguistic resources as "realizing" ("real"-izing, > but also achieving conscious awareness of and control over) meaning-making? > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!U3I8lxjVU2vKG3R_OrePCWa1iSeJucjcfhp6bVFVixjrKPwQMjofig4vtTPCa75zxmFvTQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U3I8lxjVU2vKG3R_OrePCWa1iSeJucjcfhp6bVFVixjrKPwQMjofig4vtTPCa75o3ptG0A$ > > > > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:53 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> Here is the PDF for Jay?s introduction. (As I was downloading it, I >> noticed that Jay?s postal address may be wrong; the publisher will be >> fixing this before it goes to press, but the text will be the same.) >> >> >> >> As per dedicating the whole issue to Gordon Wells, which we will do in >> the overall editorial, if you or others in this list were interested in >> writing a post on/in memoriam of Gordon Wells for Cultural Praxis, let us >> know and get in touch through culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alfredo >> >> >> >> *From: * on behalf of David Kellogg < >> dkellogg60@gmail.com> >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> *Date: *Friday, 17 July 2020 at 01:58 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells >> >> >> >> Yes, I see Jay Lemke's intro: >> >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1794009__;!!Mih3wA!U3I8lxjVU2vKG3R_OrePCWa1iSeJucjcfhp6bVFVixjrKPwQMjofig4vtTPCa746ZSd0Og$ >> >> >> >> >> Unfortunately, I can't access it without paying an arm and a leg. Isn't >> there even a preview? >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!U3I8lxjVU2vKG3R_OrePCWa1iSeJucjcfhp6bVFVixjrKPwQMjofig4vtTPCa75zxmFvTQ$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U3I8lxjVU2vKG3R_OrePCWa1iSeJucjcfhp6bVFVixjrKPwQMjofig4vtTPCa75o3ptG0A$ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 5:52 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >> >> Yes, David, great suggestion. In fact, the set of articles is coming out >> these days, to be part of issue 3, and we did discuss exactly that >> yesterday. Best, >> >> Alfredo >> >> >> >> *From: * on behalf of David Kellogg < >> dkellogg60@gmail.com> >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> *Date: *Thursday, 16 July 2020 at 03:31 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells >> >> >> >> Alfredo-- >> >> >> >> What about dedicating that Vygotsky-Halliday special issue to the late, >> great Gordon Wells? >> >> >> >> (You know he really discovered that great metamorphic vein of thinking, >> in which I am still a coal-faced little mine boy....) >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!U3I8lxjVU2vKG3R_OrePCWa1iSeJucjcfhp6bVFVixjrKPwQMjofig4vtTPCa75zxmFvTQ$ >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!U3I8lxjVU2vKG3R_OrePCWa1iSeJucjcfhp6bVFVixjrKPwQMjofig4vtTPCa75o3ptG0A$ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 7:13 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >> >> Oh no, these are terrible news. When I started at InterMedia in Oslo >> around 2010, Gordon Well?s *Dialogic Inquiry* was still one of the core >> references informing much of the work that we were and continue doing on >> education. My condolences to colleagues, friends, and family. And thanks >> for sharing, Greg. >> >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> >> >> *From: * on behalf of Greg Thompson < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> *Date: *Wednesday, 15 July 2020 at 23:40 >> *To: *"xmca-l@ucsd.edu" >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Gordon Wells >> >> >> >> Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. >> >> It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. >> >> -greg >> >> >> >> ================= >> >> Begin forwarded message >> >> >> >> Colleagues, >> >> >> >> It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the >> sudden passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his >> bike Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his >> wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was >> rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. >> Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend >> to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for >> Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. >> >> >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> Matthew E. Poehner >> >> Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction >> >> Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics >> >> President, International Association for Cognitive Education and >> Psychology >> >> Associate Editor, *Language and Sociocultural Theory* >> >> The Pennsylvania State University >> >> Department of Curriculum and Instruction >> >> 159 Chambers Building >> >> University Park, PA 16802 >> >> 814-865-2161 >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of Anthropology >> >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> >> Brigham Young University >> >> Provo, UT 84602 >> >> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!U3I8lxjVU2vKG3R_OrePCWa1iSeJucjcfhp6bVFVixjrKPwQMjofig4vtTPCa77_hvTqTQ$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!U3I8lxjVU2vKG3R_OrePCWa1iSeJucjcfhp6bVFVixjrKPwQMjofig4vtTPCa75iv9k2xg$ >> >> >> -- I[image: Angelus Novus] The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 --------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!U3I8lxjVU2vKG3R_OrePCWa1iSeJucjcfhp6bVFVixjrKPwQMjofig4vtTPCa74UfYyGoQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200717/669283fb/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Jul 18 00:56:36 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 08:56:36 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: study chart of "daddy school" In-Reply-To: <000c01d65c5e$4044a4d0$c0cdee70$@att.net> References: <000c01d65c5e$4044a4d0$c0cdee70$@att.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Peg.. The philosophy and systems consideration seem to bring more depth and coherence to the subjects -- all pointers towards understanding. Huw On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 18:19, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > I would like to go to your school, Huw! > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *Huw Lloyd > *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2020 6:00 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] study chart of "daddy school" > > > > This may be relevant for those on the list interested in school / home > education. > > > > Today is the last day of "school term". The schools here in the UK closed > in March and partially opened again recently (June). Since their closure I > have been providing a 4 hour "morning school" for our two boys (years 1 and > 4 of primary school, both recently aged 6 and 9 respectively). I have been > doing this for 16 weeks. This has been followed up in the afternoon by some > exercises set by school teachers, which my wife has covered for. > > > > The "daddy school" started out fairly impromptu and took on more structure > over time. I would describe it as a half-way house between a developmental > approach and conventional schooling. Principally, this is so that it fits > in with the manner of schooling presented in conventional classes. The lack > of planning for a curriculum was also offset by a good amount of content > ready to hand. > > > > For the older child, some key differences from a conventional approach may > include: > > > > 1. High concentration of teacher-student time. > > 2. Concentrated focus upon subjects. E.g. 4 hours or sometimes 4 days on > one activity. > > 3. Connection between subjects. E.g. mathematics and biology (graphs of > plant growth, growth rate); history, invention and design (how things work, > history of ideas, engaging with problems); history, geography, and > technology (conventional human cultural history); structures of > mathematical and linguistic expression (processes, forms); written > articulation of thoughts across subjects, reading comprehension across > subjects; language, biology and graph structures (latin taxonomies). > > 4. Philosophical and systems focus. Every activity relates to a > consideration of what it means to know. E.g. the relations between "how", > "what", and "why"; what constitutes an object; differences between the > living world and virtual, simulated worlds like minecraft. > > 5. Articulation and covering of "difficult" subjects, or presenting rich > subjects in ways accessible to the student's apprehension. Typically these > are subjects several years ahead of their school curriculum. > > 6. Problem solving activities. > > 7. Taking care, having a feeling for quality. > > > > And for the younger child: > > > > 1. High concentration of teacher-student time. > > 2. Concentrated focus upon subjects. E.g. 4 hours or sometimes 4 days on > one activity. > > 3. Protracted reading time. One chapter (or since June, two chapters) of > his adventure story books a day. > > 4. Articulation and covering of "difficult" subjects, or presenting rich > subjects in ways accessible to the student's apprehension. E.g. fractions, > percentages, graphs. Telling the time from an analog clock, comprehension. > > 5. Writing stories or accounts. > > 6. Problem solving and building tasks (e.g. following lego instructions). > > 7. Taking care, having a feeling for quality, eg. in neat writing and > drawing or colouring. > > > > Attached below are copies of the "study chart" produced by the older > child. The chart is not fully complete as it was produced retrospectively > mid-way through the work (from two A4 ring binders of work). The numbers on > the chart represent up to 15 minute units. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200718/9573b995/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sat Jul 18 11:46:50 2020 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 14:46:50 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: study chart of "daddy school" In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d65c5e$4044a4d0$c0cdee70$@att.net> Message-ID: <000f01d65d33$cd4c4010$67e4c030$@att.net> Yes, Hugh, and it seems to me like a child could enter with one object/objective and in the midst of the activity ?grow? voluntary goals and even objectives that had not been subjective objects for the child when the child started in your ?daddy school.? [pace Leontyev] From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2020 3:57 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: study chart of "daddy school" Thanks, Peg.. The philosophy and systems consideration seem to bring more depth and coherence to the subjects -- all pointers towards understanding. Huw On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 18:19, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: I would like to go to your school, Huw! From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 6:00 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] study chart of "daddy school" This may be relevant for those on the list interested in school / home education. Today is the last day of "school term". The schools here in the UK closed in March and partially opened again recently (June). Since their closure I have been providing a 4 hour "morning school" for our two boys (years 1 and 4 of primary school, both recently aged 6 and 9 respectively). I have been doing this for 16 weeks. This has been followed up in the afternoon by some exercises set by school teachers, which my wife has covered for. The "daddy school" started out fairly impromptu and took on more structure over time. I would describe it as a half-way house between a developmental approach and conventional schooling. Principally, this is so that it fits in with the manner of schooling presented in conventional classes. The lack of planning for a curriculum was also offset by a good amount of content ready to hand. For the older child, some key differences from a conventional approach may include: 1. High concentration of teacher-student time. 2. Concentrated focus upon subjects. E.g. 4 hours or sometimes 4 days on one activity. 3. Connection between subjects. E.g. mathematics and biology (graphs of plant growth, growth rate); history, invention and design (how things work, history of ideas, engaging with problems); history, geography, and technology (conventional human cultural history); structures of mathematical and linguistic expression (processes, forms); written articulation of thoughts across subjects, reading comprehension across subjects; language, biology and graph structures (latin taxonomies). 4. Philosophical and systems focus. Every activity relates to a consideration of what it means to know. E.g. the relations between "how", "what", and "why"; what constitutes an object; differences between the living world and virtual, simulated worlds like minecraft. 5. Articulation and covering of "difficult" subjects, or presenting rich subjects in ways accessible to the student's apprehension. Typically these are subjects several years ahead of their school curriculum. 6. Problem solving activities 7. Taking care, having a feeling for quality. And for the younger child: 1. High concentration of teacher-student time. 2. Concentrated focus upon subjects. E.g. 4 hours or sometimes 4 days on one activity. 3. Protracted reading time. One chapter (or since June, two chapters) of his adventure story books a day. 4. Articulation and covering of "difficult" subjects, or presenting rich subjects in ways accessible to the student's apprehension. E.g. fractions, percentages, graphs. Telling the time from an analog clock, comprehension. 5. Writing stories or accounts. 6. Problem solving and building tasks (e.g. following lego instructions). 7. Taking care, having a feeling for quality, eg. in neat writing and drawing or colouring. Attached below are copies of the "study chart" produced by the older child. The chart is not fully complete as it was produced retrospectively mid-way through the work (from two A4 ring binders of work). The numbers on the chart represent up to 15 minute units. Best, Huw -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200718/f58f0798/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Jul 18 14:00:27 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 22:00:27 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: study chart of "daddy school" In-Reply-To: <000f01d65d33$cd4c4010$67e4c030$@att.net> References: <000c01d65c5e$4044a4d0$c0cdee70$@att.net> <000f01d65d33$cd4c4010$67e4c030$@att.net> Message-ID: Yes, numerous instances of taking ownership of the activity - a good sign. I thought you might like the attached picture. It is from a study of plant classifications. The older boy has been keen on family trees, so it was a good opportunity to elaborate on those ideas of relationships. The picture was taken prior to adding some of the root and suffix meanings to the latin names. How many people look at the bottom of an apple and see that that was where the flower used to be? Huw On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 at 19:49, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. wrote: > Yes, Hugh, and it seems to me like a child could enter with one > object/objective and in the midst of the activity ?grow? voluntary goals > and even objectives that had not been subjective objects for the child when > the child started in your ?daddy school.? [pace Leontyev] > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *Huw Lloyd > *Sent:* Saturday, July 18, 2020 3:57 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: study chart of "daddy school" > > > > Thanks, Peg.. The philosophy and systems consideration seem to bring more > depth and coherence to the subjects -- all pointers towards understanding. > > > > Huw > > > > On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 18:19, Peg Griffin, Ph.D. > wrote: > > I would like to go to your school, Huw! > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *Huw Lloyd > *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2020 6:00 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] study chart of "daddy school" > > > > This may be relevant for those on the list interested in school / home > education. > > > > Today is the last day of "school term". The schools here in the UK closed > in March and partially opened again recently (June). Since their closure I > have been providing a 4 hour "morning school" for our two boys (years 1 and > 4 of primary school, both recently aged 6 and 9 respectively). I have been > doing this for 16 weeks. This has been followed up in the afternoon by some > exercises set by school teachers, which my wife has covered for. > > > > The "daddy school" started out fairly impromptu and took on more structure > over time. I would describe it as a half-way house between a developmental > approach and conventional schooling. Principally, this is so that it fits > in with the manner of schooling presented in conventional classes. The lack > of planning for a curriculum was also offset by a good amount of content > ready to hand. > > > > For the older child, some key differences from a conventional approach may > include: > > > > 1. High concentration of teacher-student time. > > 2. Concentrated focus upon subjects. E.g. 4 hours or sometimes 4 days on > one activity. > > 3. Connection between subjects. E.g. mathematics and biology (graphs of > plant growth, growth rate); history, invention and design (how things work, > history of ideas, engaging with problems); history, geography, and > technology (conventional human cultural history); structures of > mathematical and linguistic expression (processes, forms); written > articulation of thoughts across subjects, reading comprehension across > subjects; language, biology and graph structures (latin taxonomies). > > 4. Philosophical and systems focus. Every activity relates to a > consideration of what it means to know. E.g. the relations between "how", > "what", and "why"; what constitutes an object; differences between the > living world and virtual, simulated worlds like minecraft. > > 5. Articulation and covering of "difficult" subjects, or presenting rich > subjects in ways accessible to the student's apprehension. Typically these > are subjects several years ahead of their school curriculum. > > 6. Problem solving activities > > 7. Taking care, having a feeling for quality. > > > > And for the younger child: > > > > 1. High concentration of teacher-student time. > > 2. Concentrated focus upon subjects. E.g. 4 hours or sometimes 4 days on > one activity. > > 3. Protracted reading time. One chapter (or since June, two chapters) of > his adventure story books a day. > > 4. Articulation and covering of "difficult" subjects, or presenting rich > subjects in ways accessible to the student's apprehension. E.g. fractions, > percentages, graphs. Telling the time from an analog clock, comprehension. > > 5. Writing stories or accounts. > > 6. Problem solving and building tasks (e.g. following lego instructions). > > 7. Taking care, having a feeling for quality, eg. in neat writing and > drawing or colouring. > > > > Attached below are copies of the "study chart" produced by the older > child. The chart is not fully complete as it was produced retrospectively > mid-way through the work (from two A4 ring binders of work). The numbers on > the chart represent up to 15 minute units. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200718/fdca7790/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: plant_taxonomy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 392623 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200718/fdca7790/attachment.jpg From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Jul 18 15:08:15 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 07:08:15 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells In-Reply-To: References: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> <7796FC90-C51C-4D8A-A6D8-38699C8CB0EA@uio.no> Message-ID: I confess to getting a certain buzz of pride when I heard American epidemiologists start to complain that they coudn't read Korean medical papers and had to rely on the English abstracts. It was the real, tangible, ocular proof that the long century of English dominance in science is coming to an end (and maybe what Andy said about end of the long American century is true, at least in the area of science). But I think that whenever you compare abstracts to articles (and when you listen to doctors complain about getting press releases instead of papers from their colleagues), you have to say that we academic types don't really do spoilers. The devil is always in the detail--or the data. So the intro to the Vygotsky-Halliday-Hasan issue doesn't try to offer some executive summary that will prevent you from reading the articles themselves. I won't either. Professor Lemke knows who he is talking to--he assumes that most readers will need an intro to Halliday rather than to Vygotsky, and he offers a list of basic concepts. I count four. a) Language is not a bag of words or even a box of wordings: it's more like a natural resource (say, soil, air, water) which can be described according to three basic human needs: representing doings and happenings, exchanging goods, services and information, and putting together messages in various forms (spoken/written, artistic/scientific). These basic human needs give us the Hallidayan metafunctions: the "what" of ideation, the "who" of interpersonal/social interaction, and the "how" of textual constructions. b) Language is not a set of pairings of thought and word: it's more like a sandwich with a slice of meaning-bread, a slab of wording-meat, and a slice of sounding-or-spelling bread, with the bread interfacing in a relatively unmediated way with the environment (context at one end and the human body at the other) and the meat having only a mediated relationship to us through the bread. Here Professor Lemke skips adroitly over his OWN unique contribution to systemic functional linguistics, one that Halliday always scrupulously acknowledged and attributed to him by name. If the relationship were simply a fixed chain of meaning-wording-sounding that does not change, there is no advantage to this model over the Saussurean one of pairings. But it isn't: instead, each layer is linked to the last by META-REDUNDANCY. Meaning is realized (that is, "real"-ized or re-cognized, depending on whether you are listening or speaking) by relating wording to speaking, and speaking is realized by relating meaning to wording. That means that at each realization point the sandwich can be decoupled and rematched--and that is what makes it an infinite resource and not a finite bag or box of wordinigs. c) Languaging isn't a process of labelling things or even experiences. It's more like a way of pointing them out to someone, a never-ending game of Where's Waldo, except that you and your interlocutor are right there in the picture alongside Waldo. So words don't ever have fixed meanings but instead meaning potential, entirely conditional upon a) and b) above. (Vygotsky distinguishes between sense and meaning, but Halliday gives us the actual mechanism whereby meaning potential gets embodied, and it's not a two-stage process at all....) d) Language doesn't do universals. Or rather, the universal only exists in the particular, and the particular exists only through the individual. Without weather, we wouldn't be talking about climate, and without climate, we wouldn't know what to say.. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJthff4dFQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJvcYZ9zjw$ On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 9:05 AM mike cole wrote: > David-- > > It is pretty certain that most readers will not yet have read Jay's intro > the LSV/Halliday/Hasan (!!) symposium. > And if they are not familiar with Gordon's work, they won't get that > connection either. Both seem important > for us to understand. > > Might you have time to fill out the thoughts? I will cc Jay in case he > is not reading xmca. > It seems like a good opportunity to pull a bunch of people/ideas together? > Hopefully > mike > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 4:56 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > >> In almost all the compilation volumes I have read on the >> Halliday/Vygotsky nexus, there is a tendency towards division of labor: the >> Hallidayans pretty much ignore Vygotsky and the Vygotskyans pretty much >> ignore Halliday. >> >> Not with Gordon Wells, though. And not here either. Lemke starts off like >> with what he insists are THREE themes: >> >> (1) linguistic resources for making meaning >> (2) human development and the operation of higher mental functions >> (3) situated social interaction and historically evolved cultural >> patterns of practice >> >> Hang on! Isn't that really FIVE? At least! >> >> Not so. The operation of higher mental functions in you and in me is an >> instance of a historical process called human development, and situated >> social interaction is likewise an instance of historically evolved cultural >> patterns of practice. So from the get-go, Jay Lemke signs up to Hasan's >> understanding of the "cline of instantiation" (and the crucial distinction >> between instantiation on the one hand and realization on the other). >> >> Are linguistic resources simply the latest instance of making meaning? Or >> is it better to think of linguistic resources as "realizing" ("real"-izing, >> but also achieving conscious awareness of and control over) meaning-making? >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJthff4dFQ$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJvcYZ9zjw$ >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:53 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil >> wrote: >> >>> Here is the PDF for Jay?s introduction. (As I was downloading it, I >>> noticed that Jay?s postal address may be wrong; the publisher will be >>> fixing this before it goes to press, but the text will be the same.) >>> >>> >>> >>> As per dedicating the whole issue to Gordon Wells, which we will do in >>> the overall editorial, if you or others in this list were interested in >>> writing a post on/in memoriam of Gordon Wells for Cultural Praxis, let us >>> know and get in touch through culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alfredo >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: * on behalf of David Kellogg < >>> dkellogg60@gmail.com> >>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> *Date: *Friday, 17 July 2020 at 01:58 >>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, I see Jay Lemke's intro: >>> >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1794009__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJtPAddXSQ$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Unfortunately, I can't access it without paying an arm and a leg. Isn't >>> there even a preview? >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJthff4dFQ$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJvcYZ9zjw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 5:52 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> wrote: >>> >>> Yes, David, great suggestion. In fact, the set of articles is coming out >>> these days, to be part of issue 3, and we did discuss exactly that >>> yesterday. Best, >>> >>> Alfredo >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: * on behalf of David Kellogg < >>> dkellogg60@gmail.com> >>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> *Date: *Thursday, 16 July 2020 at 03:31 >>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells >>> >>> >>> >>> Alfredo-- >>> >>> >>> >>> What about dedicating that Vygotsky-Halliday special issue to the late, >>> great Gordon Wells? >>> >>> >>> >>> (You know he really discovered that great metamorphic vein of thinking, >>> in which I am still a coal-faced little mine boy....) >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJthff4dFQ$ >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJvcYZ9zjw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 7:13 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> wrote: >>> >>> Oh no, these are terrible news. When I started at InterMedia in Oslo >>> around 2010, Gordon Well?s *Dialogic Inquiry* was still one of the core >>> references informing much of the work that we were and continue doing on >>> education. My condolences to colleagues, friends, and family. And thanks >>> for sharing, Greg. >>> >>> >>> >>> Alfredo >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: * on behalf of Greg Thompson < >>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> *Date: *Wednesday, 15 July 2020 at 23:40 >>> *To: *"xmca-l@ucsd.edu" >>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Gordon Wells >>> >>> >>> >>> Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. >>> >>> It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> ================= >>> >>> Begin forwarded message >>> >>> >>> >>> Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> >>> It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the >>> sudden passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his >>> bike Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his >>> wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was >>> rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. >>> Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend >>> to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for >>> Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> Matt >>> >>> >>> >>> Matthew E. Poehner >>> >>> Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction >>> >>> Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics >>> >>> President, International Association for Cognitive Education and >>> Psychology >>> >>> Associate Editor, *Language and Sociocultural Theory* >>> >>> The Pennsylvania State University >>> >>> Department of Curriculum and Instruction >>> >>> 159 Chambers Building >>> >>> University Park, PA 16802 >>> >>> 814-865-2161 >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> >>> Assistant Professor >>> >>> Department of Anthropology >>> >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> >>> Brigham Young University >>> >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> >>> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJs2zaNwsQ$ >>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJvGLZpbtA$ >>> >>> >>> > > -- > > I[image: Angelus Novus] > > > The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to > Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 > > --------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WWLDjMq2OGWLnHlocqsUxQ9WOUdocjsHvjXJpA0eU00e0t5q9KkqI4DcWgXisJueyxbgGA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200719/f2eaedc1/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jul 20 11:13:55 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 18:13:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells In-Reply-To: References: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> <7796FC90-C51C-4D8A-A6D8-38699C8CB0EA@uio.no> , Message-ID: Hello David and VO's I am having some question about the emphasis on vocalization of words when language includes many contexts that are not just social, but inclusive of environmental, circumstances, putting the weather aside to possibly speak of less polite small talk. Sure, there is a distinction between who is speaking, who is listening, which David touches upon. Still, there is an emergent quality to language use that seems to be taken for granted. Or is it? For vegetarians for example the slab of meat in between the bread perhaps might not exactly communicate as intended. And what happens of the bread is moldy or dry? Instead, I see language (I can't cite a linguist who might have theorized much about it in this way, maybe Bakhtin???), as something more likened to cooking, where sometimes one must be exact about recipes, or one can slap something together without thinking, or one can be experienced enough to know an exact recipe by heart to make great marinara sauce with great aplomb in the kitchen, only to realize there aren't enough tomatoes and one will have to improvise and add some red peppers, which then means seasoning will have to be different, etc. With just as much happenstance in time and space, the meal will be received and enjoyed in as many different ways as it was created and served, repairing to the kitchen for salt when a glass of wine is spilled on the tablecloth. No one really knows what will come next. Language in this sense is constantly improvised based upon more than the vocalization of words to convey thoughts, word pairings, etc. Isn't this why we love to see Romeo and Juliet over and over played by different characters? Because the sets, the lighting, the costumes, the stage, the theater, support Shakespeare's providence of lines we already know by heart, along with the story outcome we already know, played by actors we might know and love because of that wordless quality they deliver to their roles, with facial expressions, intonation, cadence, diction, gesture, and poise. One production differs from another, and there is no one particular way it's supposed to go, because all are interpretations that are equally justified as any other. "A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose" is a line made up of three words said in a chain of four, but isn't from R&J's "What's in a name? "...that which we call a rose/ By any other name would smell as sweet;" though many might confuse it as Shakespeare's not Stein's, because it seems to say the same thing, though differently. It's the context, not only the words, not the how, the why, the who, but all of it emerging together at a particular moment in time. Intro to the intro or not, I do plan to read Jay's introduction just the same. ?? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2020 4:08 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells [EXTERNAL] I confess to getting a certain buzz of pride when I heard American epidemiologists start to complain that they coudn't read Korean medical papers and had to rely on the English abstracts. It was the real, tangible, ocular proof that the long century of English dominance in science is coming to an end (and maybe what Andy said about end of the long American century is true, at least in the area of science). But I think that whenever you compare abstracts to articles (and when you listen to doctors complain about getting press releases instead of papers from their colleagues), you have to say that we academic types don't really do spoilers. The devil is always in the detail--or the data. So the intro to the Vygotsky-Halliday-Hasan issue doesn't try to offer some executive summary that will prevent you from reading the articles themselves. I won't either. Professor Lemke knows who he is talking to--he assumes that most readers will need an intro to Halliday rather than to Vygotsky, and he offers a list of basic concepts. I count four. a) Language is not a bag of words or even a box of wordings: it's more like a natural resource (say, soil, air, water) which can be described according to three basic human needs: representing doings and happenings, exchanging goods, services and information, and putting together messages in various forms (spoken/written, artistic/scientific). These basic human needs give us the Hallidayan metafunctions: the "what" of ideation, the "who" of interpersonal/social interaction, and the "how" of textual constructions. b) Language is not a set of pairings of thought and word: it's more like a sandwich with a slice of meaning-bread, a slab of wording-meat, and a slice of sounding-or-spelling bread, with the bread interfacing in a relatively unmediated way with the environment (context at one end and the human body at the other) and the meat having only a mediated relationship to us through the bread. Here Professor Lemke skips adroitly over his OWN unique contribution to systemic functional linguistics, one that Halliday always scrupulously acknowledged and attributed to him by name. If the relationship were simply a fixed chain of meaning-wording-sounding that does not change, there is no advantage to this model over the Saussurean one of pairings. But it isn't: instead, each layer is linked to the last by META-REDUNDANCY. Meaning is realized (that is, "real"-ized or re-cognized, depending on whether you are listening or speaking) by relating wording to speaking, and speaking is realized by relating meaning to wording. That means that at each realization point the sandwich can be decoupled and rematched--and that is what makes it an infinite resource and not a finite bag or box of wordinigs. c) Languaging isn't a process of labelling things or even experiences. It's more like a way of pointing them out to someone, a never-ending game of Where's Waldo, except that you and your interlocutor are right there in the picture alongside Waldo. So words don't ever have fixed meanings but instead meaning potential, entirely conditional upon a) and b) above. (Vygotsky distinguishes between sense and meaning, but Halliday gives us the actual mechanism whereby meaning potential gets embodied, and it's not a two-stage process at all....) d) Language doesn't do universals. Or rather, the universal only exists in the particular, and the particular exists only through the individual. Without weather, we wouldn't be talking about climate, and without climate, we wouldn't know what to say.. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5d8rNLzMg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5cZCDCbLg$ On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 9:05 AM mike cole > wrote: David-- It is pretty certain that most readers will not yet have read Jay's intro the LSV/Halliday/Hasan (!!) symposium. And if they are not familiar with Gordon's work, they won't get that connection either. Both seem important for us to understand. Might you have time to fill out the thoughts? I will cc Jay in case he is not reading xmca. It seems like a good opportunity to pull a bunch of people/ideas together? Hopefully mike On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 4:56 PM David Kellogg > wrote: In almost all the compilation volumes I have read on the Halliday/Vygotsky nexus, there is a tendency towards division of labor: the Hallidayans pretty much ignore Vygotsky and the Vygotskyans pretty much ignore Halliday. Not with Gordon Wells, though. And not here either. Lemke starts off like with what he insists are THREE themes: (1) linguistic resources for making meaning (2) human development and the operation of higher mental functions (3) situated social interaction and historically evolved cultural patterns of practice Hang on! Isn't that really FIVE? At least! Not so. The operation of higher mental functions in you and in me is an instance of a historical process called human development, and situated social interaction is likewise an instance of historically evolved cultural patterns of practice. So from the get-go, Jay Lemke signs up to Hasan's understanding of the "cline of instantiation" (and the crucial distinction between instantiation on the one hand and realization on the other). Are linguistic resources simply the latest instance of making meaning? Or is it better to think of linguistic resources as "realizing" ("real"-izing, but also achieving conscious awareness of and control over) meaning-making? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5d8rNLzMg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5cZCDCbLg$ On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:53 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: Here is the PDF for Jay?s introduction. (As I was downloading it, I noticed that Jay?s postal address may be wrong; the publisher will be fixing this before it goes to press, but the text will be the same.) As per dedicating the whole issue to Gordon Wells, which we will do in the overall editorial, if you or others in this list were interested in writing a post on/in memoriam of Gordon Wells for Cultural Praxis, let us know and get in touch through culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no Best, Alfredo From: > on behalf of David Kellogg > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Friday, 17 July 2020 at 01:58 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells Yes, I see Jay Lemke's intro: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1794009__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5eQhftadA$ Unfortunately, I can't access it without paying an arm and a leg. Isn't there even a preview? David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5d8rNLzMg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5cZCDCbLg$ On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 5:52 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: Yes, David, great suggestion. In fact, the set of articles is coming out these days, to be part of issue 3, and we did discuss exactly that yesterday. Best, Alfredo From: > on behalf of David Kellogg > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 July 2020 at 03:31 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells Alfredo-- What about dedicating that Vygotsky-Halliday special issue to the late, great Gordon Wells? (You know he really discovered that great metamorphic vein of thinking, in which I am still a coal-faced little mine boy....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5d8rNLzMg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5cZCDCbLg$ On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 7:13 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: Oh no, these are terrible news. When I started at InterMedia in Oslo around 2010, Gordon Well?s Dialogic Inquiry was still one of the core references informing much of the work that we were and continue doing on education. My condolences to colleagues, friends, and family. And thanks for sharing, Greg. Alfredo From: > on behalf of Greg Thompson > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Wednesday, 15 July 2020 at 23:40 To: "xmca-l@ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Gordon Wells Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. -greg ================= Begin forwarded message Colleagues, It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the sudden passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his bike Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. Matt Matthew E. Poehner Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics President, International Association for Cognitive Education and Psychology Associate Editor, Language and Sociocultural Theory The Pennsylvania State University Department of Curriculum and Instruction 159 Chambers Building University Park, PA 16802 814-865-2161 -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5ddXYy7ww$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5cPoCKl7w$ -- I[Angelus Novus] The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 --------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Vk3_dsz3Q5idL-TWfcHE_unwS7704VGiYAegs1xG4k_08asYy7h39YG38FSvm5fXqCMdYg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200720/c3e7b1b7/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Jul 20 15:59:46 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 07:59:46 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells In-Reply-To: References: <7A7A28EA-DE75-46B5-AA7B-1A4FB768464F@uio.no> <7796FC90-C51C-4D8A-A6D8-38699C8CB0EA@uio.no> Message-ID: Thanks for all those metaphors on metaphors, Annalisa. I didn't really talk about Gordon Wells, though and that was what I set out to do. (I think I got distracted by the problem of how abstracts distract instead of really abstracting--I have taken to reading abstracts LAST, which is of course the way they are written!). Mike says that a lot of what I write exudes a certain negativity, and of course he's right. Sometimes I am more like a two-year-old with a hammer who likes to pound things to see what they are made of than (as Andy would have it) a three-year-old who sees every problem as a nail. So for example when I first read "The Meaning Makers" I was entranced by the simple idea of following the most neglected students from birth to their graduation from elementary school, and even more enraptured by Gordon's extremely optimistic conclusion: just as it simply isn't true that only the successful outcomes are worth documenting, it is equally untrue that tragedies of striving have a single, unpreventable, tragic flaw, either in the environment or in the child. But the second time I read it, literally decades later, I was stopped by the data gathering method (cassette players that turn themselves on at random times during the day) and I was struck by the problems that would raise with an ethics internal review board today. There also isn't much Halliday in that book, although there's a nice pull-out discussion in "Dialogic Inquiry" (as Henry pointed out). There is, however, an awful lot of Wells's work in the books that Ruqaiya Hasan writes. Hasan is, among other things, a skilled craftswoman: many if not most of the problems that attract her eye are indeed nails that can be firmly driven home with a few even strokes from the hammer of systemic-functional linguistics. Now, a cardinal principle of all systemic-functional work is that grammar is essentially about choices. So her cassette players were turned off and on by the mothers and children themselves and could be erased by either. which means that the data she used was already selected as potentially significant and put aside as worth having (or at least not too embarrassing) by the participants. I think, in addition to the ethical problems that this solves, it brings her data one step closer to being an instance of "perezhivanie". But Hasan isn't just a craftswoman. Her book on context offers us a way of theorizing perezhivanie as something that can be operationalized: it's the part of semantics which on the one hand activates the "mode" (the textual aspect of the context) and not simply the "field" (the experiential aspect of context) and on the other hand is realized in the textual metafunction of the wording. Now, the other thing that Mike says is that I don't get much of a response on this list because I use a lot of technical jargon from systemic-functional linguistics (Annalisa, of course, is an undaunted and much appreciated exception). Rereading, before I push "Send", I have to confess that the last sentence of that last paragraph above this one is a case in point. Fortunately, you will find ALL of these terms defined--much better than I can, and largely without any misconstruable metaphors--by Jay Lemke in the intro. Don't miss it! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeH1Kuh2mw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeGt_b-q-A$ On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 3:16 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello David and VO's > > I am having some question about the emphasis on vocalization of words when > language includes many contexts that are not just social, but inclusive of > environmental, circumstances, putting the weather aside to possibly speak > of less polite small talk. > > Sure, there is a distinction between who is speaking, who is listening, > which David touches upon. Still, there is an emergent quality to language > use that seems to be taken for granted. Or is it? > > For vegetarians for example the slab of meat in between the bread perhaps > might not exactly communicate as intended. And what happens of the bread is > moldy or dry? > > Instead, I see language (I can't cite a linguist who might have theorized > much about it in this way, maybe Bakhtin???), as something more likened to > cooking, where sometimes one must be exact about recipes, or one can slap > something together without thinking, or one can be experienced enough to > know an exact recipe by heart to make great marinara sauce with great > aplomb in the kitchen, only to realize there aren't enough tomatoes and one > will have to improvise and add some red peppers, which then means seasoning > will have to be different, etc. With just as much happenstance in time and > space, the meal will be received and enjoyed in as many different ways as > it was created and served, repairing to the kitchen for salt when a glass > of wine is spilled on the tablecloth. > > No one really knows what will come next. > > Language in this sense is constantly improvised based upon more than the > vocalization of words to convey thoughts, word pairings, etc. > > Isn't this why we love to see Romeo and Juliet over and over played by > different characters? Because the sets, the lighting, the costumes, the > stage, the theater, support Shakespeare's providence of lines we already > know by heart, along with the story outcome we already know, played by > actors we might know and love because of that wordless quality they deliver > to their roles, with facial expressions, intonation, cadence, diction, > gesture, and poise. One production differs from another, and there is no > one particular way it's supposed to go, because all are interpretations > that are equally justified as any other. > > "A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose" is a line made up of three words > said in a chain of four, but isn't from R&J's "What's in a name? "...that > which we call a rose/ By any other name would smell as sweet;" though many > might confuse it as Shakespeare's not Stein's, because it seems to say the > same thing, though differently. > > It's the context, not only the words, not the how, the why, the who, but > all of it emerging together at a particular moment in time. > > Intro to the intro or not, I do plan to read Jay's introduction just the > same. ? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Saturday, July 18, 2020 4:08 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > I confess to getting a certain buzz of pride when I heard American > epidemiologists start to complain that they coudn't read Korean medical > papers and had to rely on the English abstracts. It was the real, tangible, > ocular proof that the long century of English dominance in science is > coming to an end (and maybe what Andy said about end of the long American > century is true, at least in the area of science). But I think that > whenever you compare abstracts to articles (and when you listen to doctors > complain about getting press releases instead of papers from their > colleagues), you have to say that we academic types don't really do > spoilers. The devil is always in the detail--or the data. So the intro to > the Vygotsky-Halliday-Hasan issue doesn't try to offer some executive > summary that will prevent you from reading the articles themselves. I won't > either. Professor Lemke knows who he is talking to--he assumes that most > readers will need an intro to Halliday rather than to Vygotsky, and he > offers a list of basic concepts. I count four. > > a) Language is not a bag of words or even a box of wordings: it's more > like a natural resource (say, soil, air, water) which can be described > according to three basic human needs: representing doings and happenings, > exchanging goods, services and information, and putting together messages > in various forms (spoken/written, artistic/scientific). These basic human > needs give us the Hallidayan metafunctions: the "what" of ideation, the > "who" of interpersonal/social interaction, and the "how" of textual > constructions. > > b) Language is not a set of pairings of thought and word: it's more like a > sandwich with a slice of meaning-bread, a slab of wording-meat, and a slice > of sounding-or-spelling bread, with the bread interfacing in a relatively > unmediated way with the environment (context at one end and the human body > at the other) and the meat having only a mediated relationship to us > through the bread. Here Professor Lemke skips adroitly over his OWN unique > contribution to systemic functional linguistics, one that Halliday always > scrupulously acknowledged and attributed to him by name. If the > relationship were simply a fixed chain of meaning-wording-sounding that > does not change, there is no advantage to this model over the Saussurean > one of pairings. But it isn't: instead, each layer is linked to the last by > META-REDUNDANCY. Meaning is realized (that is, "real"-ized or re-cognized, > depending on whether you are listening or speaking) by relating wording to > speaking, and speaking is realized by relating meaning to wording. That > means that at each realization point the sandwich can be decoupled and > rematched--and that is what makes it an infinite resource and not a finite > bag or box of wordinigs. > > c) Languaging isn't a process of labelling things or even experiences. > It's more like a way of pointing them out to someone, a never-ending game > of Where's Waldo, except that you and your interlocutor are right there in > the picture alongside Waldo. So words don't ever have fixed meanings but > instead meaning potential, entirely conditional upon a) and b) above. > (Vygotsky distinguishes between sense and meaning, but Halliday gives us > the actual mechanism whereby meaning potential gets embodied, and it's not > a two-stage process at all....) > > d) Language doesn't do universals. Or rather, the universal only exists in > the particular, and the particular exists only through the individual. > Without weather, we wouldn't be talking about climate, and without climate, > we wouldn't know what to say.. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeH1Kuh2mw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeGt_b-q-A$ > > > > > On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 9:05 AM mike cole wrote: > > David-- > > It is pretty certain that most readers will not yet have read Jay's intro > the LSV/Halliday/Hasan (!!) symposium. > And if they are not familiar with Gordon's work, they won't get that > connection either. Both seem important > for us to understand. > > Might you have time to fill out the thoughts? I will cc Jay in case he > is not reading xmca. > It seems like a good opportunity to pull a bunch of people/ideas together? > Hopefully > mike > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 4:56 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > In almost all the compilation volumes I have read on the Halliday/Vygotsky > nexus, there is a tendency towards division of labor: the Hallidayans > pretty much ignore Vygotsky and the Vygotskyans pretty much ignore Halliday. > > Not with Gordon Wells, though. And not here either. Lemke starts off like > with what he insists are THREE themes: > > (1) linguistic resources for making meaning > (2) human development and the operation of higher mental functions > (3) situated social interaction and historically evolved cultural patterns > of practice > > Hang on! Isn't that really FIVE? At least! > > Not so. The operation of higher mental functions in you and in me is an > instance of a historical process called human development, and situated > social interaction is likewise an instance of historically evolved cultural > patterns of practice. So from the get-go, Jay Lemke signs up to Hasan's > understanding of the "cline of instantiation" (and the crucial distinction > between instantiation on the one hand and realization on the other). > > Are linguistic resources simply the latest instance of making meaning? Or > is it better to think of linguistic resources as "realizing" ("real"-izing, > but also achieving conscious awareness of and control over) meaning-making? > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeH1Kuh2mw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeGt_b-q-A$ > > > > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:53 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > Here is the PDF for Jay?s introduction. (As I was downloading it, I > noticed that Jay?s postal address may be wrong; the publisher will be > fixing this before it goes to press, but the text will be the same.) > > > > As per dedicating the whole issue to Gordon Wells, which we will do in the > overall editorial, if you or others in this list were interested in writing > a post on/in memoriam of Gordon Wells for Cultural Praxis, let us know and > get in touch through culturalpraxis@ils.uio.no > > > > Best, > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Friday, 17 July 2020 at 01:58 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells > > > > Yes, I see Jay Lemke's intro: > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1794009__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeGfnQx3cg$ > > > > > Unfortunately, I can't access it without paying an arm and a leg. Isn't > there even a preview? > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeH1Kuh2mw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeGt_b-q-A$ > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 5:52 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > Yes, David, great suggestion. In fact, the set of articles is coming out > these days, to be part of issue 3, and we did discuss exactly that > yesterday. Best, > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 July 2020 at 03:31 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Gordon Wells > > > > Alfredo-- > > > > What about dedicating that Vygotsky-Halliday special issue to the late, > great Gordon Wells? > > > > (You know he really discovered that great metamorphic vein of thinking, in > which I am still a coal-faced little mine boy....) > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > > Outlines, Spring 2020 > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeH1Kuh2mw$ > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeGt_b-q-A$ > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 7:13 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > Oh no, these are terrible news. When I started at InterMedia in Oslo > around 2010, Gordon Well?s *Dialogic Inquiry* was still one of the core > references informing much of the work that we were and continue doing on > education. My condolences to colleagues, friends, and family. And thanks > for sharing, Greg. > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Wednesday, 15 July 2020 at 23:40 > *To: *"xmca-l@ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Gordon Wells > > > > Forwarding this message that I received from the SCT-SLL listserve. > > It is a tragic and unfortunate loss. > > -greg > > > > ================= > > Begin forwarded message > > > > Colleagues, > > > > It is with deep regret that I write to inform this community of the sudden > passing of Gordon Wells. Gordon was struck by a car while riding his bike > Sunday evening in State College, Pennsylvania, where he lived with his > wife, Mari Haneda (a faculty member at Penn State University). He was > rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery but did not pull through. > Gordon was a cherished and respected colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend > to scholars and educators around the world. This is a shocking loss for > Mari and Gordon's family and for all of us. > > > > Matt > > > > Matthew E. Poehner > > Associate Department Head, Curriculum and Instruction > > Professor of World Languages Education and Applied Linguistics > > President, International Association for Cognitive Education and Psychology > > Associate Editor, *Language and Sociocultural Theory* > > The Pennsylvania State University > > Department of Curriculum and Instruction > > 159 Chambers Building > > University Park, PA 16802 > > 814-865-2161 > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeHuJ3pwsw$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeEWngpT1A$ > > > > > -- > > I[image: Angelus Novus] > > > The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to > Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 > > --------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!T_cA--Z53G41db6B3yLN3xWayMMl5Ubu5NzledcOla3YAxMnxmsxXrDdmeBfUeGLQRWzhQ$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200721/b06021df/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jul 23 00:09:06 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 16:09:06 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Philosophie des Geistes? Message-ID: We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluTj4uvZOA$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluSzhBnr9w$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluRBlvE9VA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/44597275/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jul 23 00:47:23 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:47:23 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or? editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj0va8zujw$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj24gIDBAA$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" > into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here > in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for > dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions > and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. > > We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what > does John Dewey mean when he says: > > "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a > crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's > Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? > > Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, > does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj0x4czRHQ$ > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a > manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj3dlobM6w$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj3-cuqqFA$ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/b07a11dc/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jul 23 01:15:11 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 18:15:11 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <159e0f1d-12fe-e0cc-d928-f9b65b18aedf@marxists.org> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of /Hegel Werke/. The German word for "page" is /Seite/, so you would say "S. 401" of the /Enc/, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the /Phenomenology of Spirit/. ENZYKl3.PDF, in German, is too large to send as an attachment, but see the English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QVHY--OBmlkVnnjPpSLn-Gf4HJw6La5l5P5tYA8dvO2hJ_XbU_yUAlZpRSEF8C3H9niczw$ Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the > Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: > > * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology > * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social > Theory, and > * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science > and Philosophy. > > The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary > between 2 or? editions, but these will be limited probably > by those translated into English, > > I would start with the 1930 version" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QVHY--OBmlkVnnjPpSLn-Gf4HJw6La5l5P5tYA8dvO2hJ_XbU_yUAlZpRSEF8C0H9SIhpg$ > > - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. > > The 1817 version has > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QVHY--OBmlkVnnjPpSLn-Gf4HJw6La5l5P5tYA8dvO2hJ_XbU_yUAlZpRSEF8C2MyIRGhw$ > > - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version > of Objective Spirit. > > The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his > students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long > discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I > am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and > send it on. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" >> into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here >> in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for >> dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with >> questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather >> difficult text. >> >> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what >> does John Dewey mean when he says: >> >> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a >> crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's >> Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >> >> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, >> does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!QVHY--OBmlkVnnjPpSLn-Gf4HJw6La5l5P5tYA8dvO2hJ_XbU_yUAlZpRSEF8C3QTCTYbA$ >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a >> manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QVHY--OBmlkVnnjPpSLn-Gf4HJw6La5l5P5tYA8dvO2hJ_XbU_yUAlZpRSEF8C1cOb0l4A$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's >> Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QVHY--OBmlkVnnjPpSLn-Gf4HJw6La5l5P5tYA8dvO2hJ_XbU_yUAlZpRSEF8C0jcW1YyQ$ >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/c3002312/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: subjective-spoirit-401.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 625874 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/c3002312/attachment-0001.pdf From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jul 23 01:17:08 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 18:17:08 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of /Hegel Werke/. The German word for "page" is /Seite/, so you would say "S. 401" of the /Enc/, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the /Phenomenology of Spirit/. See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C642xXiTQ$ Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the > Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: > > * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology > * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social > Theory, and > * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science > and Philosophy. > > The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary > between 2 or? editions, but these will be limited probably > by those translated into English, > > I would start with the 1930 version" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C5IB5nuRg$ > > - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. > > The 1817 version has > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C6v6COzMA$ > > - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version > of Objective Spirit. > > The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his > students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long > discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I > am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and > send it on. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" >> into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here >> in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for >> dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with >> questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather >> difficult text. >> >> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what >> does John Dewey mean when he says: >> >> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a >> crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's >> Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >> >> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, >> does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C4_M3OwXw$ >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a >> manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C7bSU_cog$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's >> Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C7KvYw3NA$ >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/bde9fca4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: subjective-spoirit-401.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 625874 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/bde9fca4/attachment.pdf From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jul 23 03:55:46 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:55:46 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> Message-ID: Thanks, Andy--this is it! "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-R8158beQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-Q7yWc-iw$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 > as well. > > One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to > cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The > German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the *Enc*, > This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, > on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, > though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology of Spirit*. > > See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English > translation is here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-SR8-lagQ$ > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself > composed of three parts: > > - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology > - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and > - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. > > The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or > editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into > English, > > I would start with the 1930 version" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-TwazT_Kw$ > > - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. > > The 1817 version has > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-Qts7kb9g$ > > - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective > Spirit. > The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the > basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of > thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will > photocopy it and send it on. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those > cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). > It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with > questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. > > We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey > mean when he says: > > "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation > of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? > > Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number > refer to a page number or a section or what? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-Qccwo2Yg$ > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-R8158beQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-Q7yWc-iw$ > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/c1d4894e/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jul 23 04:16:07 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 21:16:07 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> Message-ID: <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion /is/ the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > Thanks, Andy--this is it! > > "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated > merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but > they form at the same time a physical system for the > expression of mental states, and in this way they get > quite another interpretation." > > The only problem is the word "expression".?In the > James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression > of the viscera and the organs.?But perhaps that's what > Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a > system that expresses a state which we interpret as an > emotion. > > (I remember a dear?friend of mine getting a messy divorce > and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of > weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his > stomach....) > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a > manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW_iU8dolQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW9osLhECw$ > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably > be interested in 402 as well. > > One other possibility: The "official" way of citing > Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the > authoritative version of /Hegel Werke/. The German > word for "page" is /Seite/, so you would say "S. 401" > of the /Enc/, This turns out also to be an interesting > passage of the Subjective Spirit, on > Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous > Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, > not like in the /Phenomenology of Spirit/. > > See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in > German. English translation is here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW9xlTxA5Q$ > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the >> Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: >> >> * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as >> Psychology >> * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as >> Social Theory, and >> * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, >> Science and Philosophy. >> >> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do >> vary between 2 or? editions, but these will be >> limited probably by those translated into English, >> >> I would start with the 1930 version" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW_y7WQiTw$ >> >> - a very early stage in the development of mental >> life, or. >> >> The 1817 version has >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW9asY3mNw$ >> >> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a >> version of Objective Spirit. >> >> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by >> his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which >> is a long discourse on the development of thinking >> from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. >> I will photocopy it and send it on. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on >>> Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so >>> popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's >>> not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of >>> pictures with questions and answers alongside >>> Vygotsky's rather difficult text. >>> >>> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, >>> what does John Dewey mean when he says: >>> >>> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that >>> a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in >>> Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >>> >>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If >>> so, does the number refer to a page number or a >>> section or what? >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW9omqCYrg$ >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual >>> and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW_iU8dolQ$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW9osLhECw$ >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/7af84570/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jul 23 09:58:56 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 16:58:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The vibrations of consciousness Message-ID: Hello Xmcars, I'm not sure what the connection is but it seems there is one between consciousness and art-making with AI, and 3D printers. This article (2018) about consciousness is from The Conversation. Perhaps you might also like to read it: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/could-consciousness-all-come-down-to-the-way-things-vibrate-103070__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhiNZIn0wA$ and a more recent one from last year by the same author is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/how-can-you-tell-if-another-person-animal-or-thing-is-conscious-try-these-3-tests-115835__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhjcpwvgAw$ I'm curious how Vygotsky defined consciousness? I'm not recollecting it at the moment. Maybe Andy could explain? On a different related topic I stumbled on these articles on AI created artwork: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/when-the-line-between-machine-and-artist-becomes-blurred-103149__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhjzG5V5uQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/arts/design/ai-art-sold-christies.html__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhgx_FIiKg$ What happens to labor as defined by Marx when the computer or the robot end up overriding human craft and labor? Is it a development in which value shifts? or is it the equation that determines value remains the same with different exponentially-numbered inputs that provides a different salient output? AI seems to be a kind of mirror-neuron wind up toy, if only because the inputs are required first in order to come up with simulacra outputs to then be considered art (by Christie's, no less). This made me consider 3-D printers as well. If someone can take a car part, scan it, and re-print the part for pennies, I'd guess that auto manufacturing is about to explode from this technological change. I'm wondering what Walter Benjamin would think about AI created portraiture (I'm thinking specifically about his wonderful essay on art here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhi28s3Zbg$ ), but what about reproduction of the reproduction of car parts? I pause as I consider the future of manufacturing parts that used to require large iron forges, machinery, welding, engineering, etc. If there are printing communities that spring up to print parts (and there are) and they could conceivably create a car not much above the value of the steel materials, what happens to General Motors? Will it suffer the same demise as Kodak? I noticed that HP is coming out with industrial printers that seem to indicate the arrival of this sort of change: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers/products/multi-jet-fusion-5200.html__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhhTORRgXA$ There have been online communities that show how to make one's own 3-D printer. So I wonder how this innovation will become absorbed into manufacturing? Remember the desktop publishing revolution? This quote by Paul Val?ry opens Benjamin's essay and reflects relevance to my questions: ?Our fine arts were developed, their types and uses were established, in times very different from the present, by men whose power of action upon things was insignificant in comparison with ours. But the amazing growth of our techniques, the adaptability and precision they have attained, the ideas and habits they are creating, make it a certainty that profound changes are impending in the ancient craft of the Beautiful. In all the arts there is a physical component which can no longer be considered or treated as it used to be, which cannot remain unaffected by our modern knowledge and power. For the last twenty years neither matter nor space nor time has been what it was from time immemorial. We must expect great innovations to transform the entire technique of the arts, thereby affecting artistic invention itself and perhaps even bringing about an amazing change in our very notion of art.?* Paul Val?ry, PI?CES SUR L?ART ?Le Conquete de l?ubiquit?,? Paris. I look forward to hearing the sparkling conversations these articles might inspire. Do tell. Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/0e8a6181/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jul 23 09:58:55 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:58:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> Message-ID: how does the term, emotion, differ from the term, affect, in your interpretation, Andy? I am trying to get a stable understanding that links Spinoza's ideas to Vygotsky's regarding "the unity of concept and affect/emotion". mike On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 4:19 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts > of the whole organism. The emotion *is* the state of a whole organism, in > particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to > someone. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Thanks, Andy--this is it! > > "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts > subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a > physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they > get quite another interpretation." > > The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the > mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps > that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system > that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. > > (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, > when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart > that was broken but his stomach....) > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WX-QNmo1DHzN3B0UFmPt3aPiAkgP3xKV23HPfmkuTzbcypgKpClYCNruiE5ZEkZ4iCGkkw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WX-QNmo1DHzN3B0UFmPt3aPiAkgP3xKV23HPfmkuTzbcypgKpClYCNruiE5ZEkYaT-RDQQ$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 >> as well. >> >> One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to >> cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The >> German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the *Enc*, >> This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, >> on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, >> though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology of Spirit*. >> >> >> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English >> translation is here: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!WX-QNmo1DHzN3B0UFmPt3aPiAkgP3xKV23HPfmkuTzbcypgKpClYCNruiE5ZEkYsXWA1vg$ >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself >> composed of three parts: >> >> - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology >> - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and >> - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. >> >> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or >> editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into >> English, >> >> I would start with the 1930 version" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!WX-QNmo1DHzN3B0UFmPt3aPiAkgP3xKV23HPfmkuTzbcypgKpClYCNruiE5ZEkY42W57Qw$ >> >> - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. >> >> The 1817 version has >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!WX-QNmo1DHzN3B0UFmPt3aPiAkgP3xKV23HPfmkuTzbcypgKpClYCNruiE5ZEkbPctdy7w$ >> >> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective >> Spirit. >> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the >> basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of >> thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will >> photocopy it and send it on. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those >> cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). >> It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with >> questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. >> >> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey >> mean when he says: >> >> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation >> of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >> >> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number >> refer to a page number or a section or what? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!WX-QNmo1DHzN3B0UFmPt3aPiAkgP3xKV23HPfmkuTzbcypgKpClYCNruiE5ZEkY0jBbFAw$ >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!WX-QNmo1DHzN3B0UFmPt3aPiAkgP3xKV23HPfmkuTzbcypgKpClYCNruiE5ZEkZ4iCGkkw$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!WX-QNmo1DHzN3B0UFmPt3aPiAkgP3xKV23HPfmkuTzbcypgKpClYCNruiE5ZEkYaT-RDQQ$ >> >> >> >> -- I[image: Angelus Novus] The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 --------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!WX-QNmo1DHzN3B0UFmPt3aPiAkgP3xKV23HPfmkuTzbcypgKpClYCNruiE5ZEkYMKjy2Ug$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/31bab0e5/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jul 23 10:04:13 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:04:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Annalisa - I am sure there are more ways that LSV thought of consciousness, but a la marx, I believe its "human being's relationship to the environment"..... the rest of nature. Plenty of room for vibrations in that formulation. mike On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:00 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello Xmcars, > > I'm not sure what the connection is but it seems there is one between > consciousness and art-making with AI, and 3D printers. > > This article (2018) about consciousness is from The Conversation. Perhaps > you might also like to read it: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/could-consciousness-all-come-down-to-the-way-things-vibrate-103070__;!!Mih3wA!QKYWsd2osOCt7VWAmlDhv9LZLVufjS0x09zcmmUeIudHX_TAW1dvHFbFUNJETZpS3om_Pg$ > > > and a more recent one from last year by the same author is here: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/how-can-you-tell-if-another-person-animal-or-thing-is-conscious-try-these-3-tests-115835__;!!Mih3wA!QKYWsd2osOCt7VWAmlDhv9LZLVufjS0x09zcmmUeIudHX_TAW1dvHFbFUNJETZovMxrPNg$ > > > I'm curious how Vygotsky defined consciousness? I'm not recollecting it at > the moment. Maybe Andy could explain? > > On a different related topic I stumbled on these articles on AI created > artwork: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/when-the-line-between-machine-and-artist-becomes-blurred-103149__;!!Mih3wA!QKYWsd2osOCt7VWAmlDhv9LZLVufjS0x09zcmmUeIudHX_TAW1dvHFbFUNJETZr_amUasg$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/arts/design/ai-art-sold-christies.html__;!!Mih3wA!QKYWsd2osOCt7VWAmlDhv9LZLVufjS0x09zcmmUeIudHX_TAW1dvHFbFUNJETZq15VWA0g$ > > > What happens to labor as defined by Marx when the computer or the robot > end up overriding human craft and labor? Is it a development in which value > shifts? or is it the equation that determines value remains the same with > different exponentially-numbered inputs that provides a different salient > output? > > AI seems to be a kind of mirror-neuron wind up toy, if only because the > inputs are required first in order to come up with simulacra outputs to > then be considered art (by Christie's, no less). > > This made me consider 3-D printers as well. If someone can take a car > part, scan it, and re-print the part for pennies, I'd guess that auto > manufacturing is about to explode from this technological change. > > I'm wondering what Walter Benjamin would think about AI created > portraiture (I'm thinking specifically about his wonderful essay on art > here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!QKYWsd2osOCt7VWAmlDhv9LZLVufjS0x09zcmmUeIudHX_TAW1dvHFbFUNJETZpuONeHMA$ > > ), but what about reproduction of the reproduction of car parts? I pause as > I consider the future of manufacturing parts that used to require large > iron forges, machinery, welding, engineering, etc. > > If there are printing communities that spring up to print parts (and there > are) and they could conceivably create a car not much above the value of > the steel materials, what happens to General Motors? Will it suffer the > same demise as Kodak? > > I noticed that HP is coming out with industrial printers that seem to > indicate the arrival of this sort of change: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers/products/multi-jet-fusion-5200.html__;!!Mih3wA!QKYWsd2osOCt7VWAmlDhv9LZLVufjS0x09zcmmUeIudHX_TAW1dvHFbFUNJETZoLfIolVw$ > > > There have been online communities that show how to make one's own 3-D > printer. So I wonder how this innovation will become absorbed into > manufacturing? > > Remember the desktop publishing revolution? > > This quote by Paul Val?ry opens Benjamin's essay and reflects relevance > to my questions: > > ?Our fine arts were developed, their types and uses were established, in > times very different from the present, by men whose power of action upon > things was insignificant in comparison with ours. But the amazing growth > of our techniques, the adaptability and precision they have attained, the > ideas and habits they are creating, make it a certainty that profound > changes are impending in the ancient craft of the Beautiful. In all the arts > there is a physical component which can no longer be considered or > treated as it used to be, which cannot remain unaffected by our modern > knowledge and power. For the last twenty years neither matter nor space > nor time has been what it was from time immemorial. We must expect great > innovations to transform the entire technique of the arts, thereby > affecting artistic invention itself and perhaps even bringing about an > amazing change in our very notion of art.?* > > > Paul Val?ry, PI?CES SUR L?ART > ?Le Conquete de l?ubiquit?,? Paris. > > > I look forward to hearing the sparkling conversations these articles might > inspire. > > Do tell. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > -- I[image: Angelus Novus] The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 --------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QKYWsd2osOCt7VWAmlDhv9LZLVufjS0x09zcmmUeIudHX_TAW1dvHFbFUNJETZp2QOjRvg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/2b9866ac/attachment-0001.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jul 23 12:05:29 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:05:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Mike, Thank you for that! Of course then, my question is, what is the definition of "relationship"? Is there a relationship between the clouds and the lithosphere of the earth? Would that mean that the clouds and earth are conscious? Another question I might offer, is perception a requisite for consciousness? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 11:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness [EXTERNAL] Annalisa - I am sure there are more ways that LSV thought of consciousness, but a la marx, I believe its "human being's relationship to the environment"..... the rest of nature. Plenty of room for vibrations in that formulation. mike On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:00 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Xmcars, I'm not sure what the connection is but it seems there is one between consciousness and art-making with AI, and 3D printers. This article (2018) about consciousness is from The Conversation. Perhaps you might also like to read it: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/could-consciousness-all-come-down-to-the-way-things-vibrate-103070__;!!Mih3wA!UtsU4HKRHy3ji6qzEJ_PzXxgfdUjn5kE10CCH60R-gIMHaPHN7BWg517lGS_Ap91_ojGvg$ and a more recent one from last year by the same author is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/how-can-you-tell-if-another-person-animal-or-thing-is-conscious-try-these-3-tests-115835__;!!Mih3wA!UtsU4HKRHy3ji6qzEJ_PzXxgfdUjn5kE10CCH60R-gIMHaPHN7BWg517lGS_Ap-Xsb_btA$ I'm curious how Vygotsky defined consciousness? I'm not recollecting it at the moment. Maybe Andy could explain? On a different related topic I stumbled on these articles on AI created artwork: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/when-the-line-between-machine-and-artist-becomes-blurred-103149__;!!Mih3wA!UtsU4HKRHy3ji6qzEJ_PzXxgfdUjn5kE10CCH60R-gIMHaPHN7BWg517lGS_Ap_JnYh-uA$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/arts/design/ai-art-sold-christies.html__;!!Mih3wA!UtsU4HKRHy3ji6qzEJ_PzXxgfdUjn5kE10CCH60R-gIMHaPHN7BWg517lGS_Ap9kRKlD5Q$ What happens to labor as defined by Marx when the computer or the robot end up overriding human craft and labor? Is it a development in which value shifts? or is it the equation that determines value remains the same with different exponentially-numbered inputs that provides a different salient output? AI seems to be a kind of mirror-neuron wind up toy, if only because the inputs are required first in order to come up with simulacra outputs to then be considered art (by Christie's, no less). This made me consider 3-D printers as well. If someone can take a car part, scan it, and re-print the part for pennies, I'd guess that auto manufacturing is about to explode from this technological change. I'm wondering what Walter Benjamin would think about AI created portraiture (I'm thinking specifically about his wonderful essay on art here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!UtsU4HKRHy3ji6qzEJ_PzXxgfdUjn5kE10CCH60R-gIMHaPHN7BWg517lGS_Ap8uCowr8Q$ ), but what about reproduction of the reproduction of car parts? I pause as I consider the future of manufacturing parts that used to require large iron forges, machinery, welding, engineering, etc. If there are printing communities that spring up to print parts (and there are) and they could conceivably create a car not much above the value of the steel materials, what happens to General Motors? Will it suffer the same demise as Kodak? I noticed that HP is coming out with industrial printers that seem to indicate the arrival of this sort of change: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers/products/multi-jet-fusion-5200.html__;!!Mih3wA!UtsU4HKRHy3ji6qzEJ_PzXxgfdUjn5kE10CCH60R-gIMHaPHN7BWg517lGS_Ap8sLzbfdw$ There have been online communities that show how to make one's own 3-D printer. So I wonder how this innovation will become absorbed into manufacturing? Remember the desktop publishing revolution? This quote by Paul Val?ry opens Benjamin's essay and reflects relevance to my questions: ?Our fine arts were developed, their types and uses were established, in times very different from the present, by men whose power of action upon things was insignificant in comparison with ours. But the amazing growth of our techniques, the adaptability and precision they have attained, the ideas and habits they are creating, make it a certainty that profound changes are impending in the ancient craft of the Beautiful. In all the arts there is a physical component which can no longer be considered or treated as it used to be, which cannot remain unaffected by our modern knowledge and power. For the last twenty years neither matter nor space nor time has been what it was from time immemorial. We must expect great innovations to transform the entire technique of the arts, thereby affecting artistic invention itself and perhaps even bringing about an amazing change in our very notion of art.?* Paul Val?ry, PI?CES SUR L?ART ?Le Conquete de l?ubiquit?,? Paris. I look forward to hearing the sparkling conversations these articles might inspire. Do tell. Kind regards, Annalisa -- I[Angelus Novus] The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 --------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UtsU4HKRHy3ji6qzEJ_PzXxgfdUjn5kE10CCH60R-gIMHaPHN7BWg517lGS_Ap9f0VjURA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/3c56d4ca/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jul 23 14:01:03 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 06:01:03 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> Message-ID: Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zPbYeeQHQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zOCrzEKFA$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts > of the whole organism. The emotion *is* the state of a whole organism, in > particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to > someone. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Thanks, Andy--this is it! > > "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts > subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a > physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they > get quite another interpretation." > > The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the > mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps > that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system > that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. > > (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, > when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart > that was broken but his stomach....) > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zPbYeeQHQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zOCrzEKFA$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 >> as well. >> >> One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to >> cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The >> German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the *Enc*, >> This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, >> on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, >> though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology of Spirit*. >> >> >> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English >> translation is here: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zOU8trAPA$ >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself >> composed of three parts: >> >> - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology >> - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and >> - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. >> >> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or >> editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into >> English, >> >> I would start with the 1930 version" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zNY7omnBg$ >> >> - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. >> >> The 1817 version has >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zN2hYnY4Q$ >> >> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective >> Spirit. >> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the >> basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of >> thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will >> photocopy it and send it on. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those >> cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). >> It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with >> questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. >> >> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey >> mean when he says: >> >> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation >> of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >> >> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number >> refer to a page number or a section or what? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zMrBSaugw$ >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zPbYeeQHQ$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume >> One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zOCrzEKFA$ >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200724/31c2e465/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jul 23 14:28:21 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 21:28:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org>, Message-ID: David, But what of conatus? Isn't that something innate within all beings? Kind regards, Annalisa P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this list. ? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XLfPNqZlEp3rbfPbPAEAAi9vJhjaQ7Od95tECpzoVAu_dEryL7jvzPtcUE89uGpPzbgMaQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XLfPNqZlEp3rbfPbPAEAAi9vJhjaQ7Od95tECpzoVAu_dEryL7jvzPtcUE89uGpCSpfR3g$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion is the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Thanks, Andy--this is it! "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XLfPNqZlEp3rbfPbPAEAAi9vJhjaQ7Od95tECpzoVAu_dEryL7jvzPtcUE89uGpPzbgMaQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XLfPNqZlEp3rbfPbPAEAAi9vJhjaQ7Od95tECpzoVAu_dEryL7jvzPtcUE89uGpCSpfR3g$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of Hegel Werke. The German word for "page" is Seite, so you would say "S. 401" of the Enc, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the Phenomenology of Spirit. See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!XLfPNqZlEp3rbfPbPAEAAi9vJhjaQ7Od95tECpzoVAu_dEryL7jvzPtcUE89uGrs32dkUQ$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!XLfPNqZlEp3rbfPbPAEAAi9vJhjaQ7Od95tECpzoVAu_dEryL7jvzPtcUE89uGqfXd9cIg$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!XLfPNqZlEp3rbfPbPAEAAi9vJhjaQ7Od95tECpzoVAu_dEryL7jvzPtcUE89uGpGMW-I9g$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!XLfPNqZlEp3rbfPbPAEAAi9vJhjaQ7Od95tECpzoVAu_dEryL7jvzPtcUE89uGqK_grs2w$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XLfPNqZlEp3rbfPbPAEAAi9vJhjaQ7Od95tECpzoVAu_dEryL7jvzPtcUE89uGpPzbgMaQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XLfPNqZlEp3rbfPbPAEAAi9vJhjaQ7Od95tECpzoVAu_dEryL7jvzPtcUE89uGpCSpfR3g$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/abda434d/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jul 23 14:37:52 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 21:37:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org>, , Message-ID: I just saw Mike's post, too... I do not find emotion to be a mental state, as Andy would have it. It seems to me emotion or affection is something that is in between feeling and thought, as it can cloud all feeling and thought based upon its intensity. If I am moved to tears over something personal, I may forget that I have to get to the dentist appointment, but I also might not recall that my sweater is scratchy. Emotion/Affect seems to also have an attentional quality as well, which seems to be linked to Spinoza's concept of self preservation (conatus). Spinoza's concept of conatus explains why we don't think about thinking about thinking about thinking about emotions ad infinitum. There has to be a basis upon these reflections that goes beyond reason, because we do see many people acting outside of reason all the time. so emotion is not a mental state alone. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:28 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? David, But what of conatus? Isn't that something innate within all beings? Kind regards, Annalisa P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this list. ? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TmhXJwNbLqWUXUYv3lrRb3tGnHu12Ln9ppv0GaxqvyCBJke8h25D4JF4iXvGNWwYeNuX6g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TmhXJwNbLqWUXUYv3lrRb3tGnHu12Ln9ppv0GaxqvyCBJke8h25D4JF4iXvGNWxk1D8cjg$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion is the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Thanks, Andy--this is it! "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TmhXJwNbLqWUXUYv3lrRb3tGnHu12Ln9ppv0GaxqvyCBJke8h25D4JF4iXvGNWwYeNuX6g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TmhXJwNbLqWUXUYv3lrRb3tGnHu12Ln9ppv0GaxqvyCBJke8h25D4JF4iXvGNWxk1D8cjg$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of Hegel Werke. The German word for "page" is Seite, so you would say "S. 401" of the Enc, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the Phenomenology of Spirit. See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TmhXJwNbLqWUXUYv3lrRb3tGnHu12Ln9ppv0GaxqvyCBJke8h25D4JF4iXvGNWxpyyN_wQ$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TmhXJwNbLqWUXUYv3lrRb3tGnHu12Ln9ppv0GaxqvyCBJke8h25D4JF4iXvGNWwJ_VoJyw$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TmhXJwNbLqWUXUYv3lrRb3tGnHu12Ln9ppv0GaxqvyCBJke8h25D4JF4iXvGNWw9It_mww$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!TmhXJwNbLqWUXUYv3lrRb3tGnHu12Ln9ppv0GaxqvyCBJke8h25D4JF4iXvGNWxBN6ChCw$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TmhXJwNbLqWUXUYv3lrRb3tGnHu12Ln9ppv0GaxqvyCBJke8h25D4JF4iXvGNWwYeNuX6g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TmhXJwNbLqWUXUYv3lrRb3tGnHu12Ln9ppv0GaxqvyCBJke8h25D4JF4iXvGNWxk1D8cjg$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200723/47ba2cff/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jul 23 14:46:27 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 06:46:27 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> Message-ID: Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls the interpersonal meta-function). Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old Spinoza--free will. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI46v2mfisQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI45TUmJtBg$ On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > David, > > But what of *conatus*? Isn't that something innate within all beings? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this > list. ? > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is > what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles > respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at > any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. > > I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is > crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is > "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in > physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a > change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. > (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's > waving analogy....) > > Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or > less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the > environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the > potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make > this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include > the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT > issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, > though....) > : > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI46v2mfisQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI45TUmJtBg$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts > of the whole organism. The emotion *is* the state of a whole organism, in > particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to > someone. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Thanks, Andy--this is it! > > "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts > subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a > physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they > get quite another interpretation." > > The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the > mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps > that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system > that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. > > (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, > when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart > that was broken but his stomach....) > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI46v2mfisQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI45TUmJtBg$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 > as well. > > One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to > cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The > German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the *Enc*, > This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, > on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, > though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology of Spirit*. > > See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English > translation is here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI44ZJXmm9w$ > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself > composed of three parts: > > - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology > - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and > - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. > > The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or > editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into > English, > > I would start with the 1930 version" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI47FHs1pyg$ > > - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. > > The 1817 version has > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI46dz7qDuw$ > > - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective > Spirit. > The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the > basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of > thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will > photocopy it and send it on. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those > cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). > It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with > questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. > > We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey > mean when he says: > > "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation > of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? > > Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number > refer to a page number or a section or what? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI46QCUNIyA$ > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI46v2mfisQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SzPofQ6h21mdc6sSygodTQ2e4fCNsswBfkbVWtM7vNQCtLwz2k9zMc7-H4BHI45TUmJtBg$ > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200724/bc4c0484/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jul 23 21:04:40 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 14:04:40 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <643f81f9-3272-1330-f337-d549bb6d91ba@marxists.org> For Marxism, Annalisa, "consciousness" is an all-embracing category. It does not refer to any specific "part" of the mind such as awareness, or in distinction from some /other/ part of the mind such as the Unconscious. It is difficult to define because there is nothing more basic in terms of which "consciousness" could be defined other than abstractions which in turn rely on the concept of consciousness. So only a general sense can be given. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/07/2020 5:05 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Thank you for that! > > Of course then, my question is, what is the definition of > "relationship"? > > Is there a relationship between the clouds and the > lithosphere of the earth? Would that mean that the clouds > and earth are conscious? > > Another question I might offer, is perception a requisite > for consciousness? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 11:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness > > *? [EXTERNAL]* > > ** > Annalisa - > > I am sure there are more ways that LSV thought of > consciousness,? but a la marx,? I believe its "human > being's relationship to > the environment"..... the rest of nature. Plenty of room > for vibrations in that formulation. > mike > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:00 AM Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > Hello Xmcars, > > I'm not sure what the connection is but it seems there > is one between consciousness and art-making with AI, > and 3D printers. > > This article (2018) about consciousness is from The > Conversation. Perhaps you might also like to read it: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/could-consciousness-all-come-down-to-the-way-things-vibrate-103070__;!!Mih3wA!XbYmB_z-uAeKpBg65taY2coYM7CzQSY1YdCNcBXjyiEOpXFgKAtWeHcSCmw7d5tM0pml9A$ > > > and a more recent one from last year by the same > author is here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/how-can-you-tell-if-another-person-animal-or-thing-is-conscious-try-these-3-tests-115835__;!!Mih3wA!XbYmB_z-uAeKpBg65taY2coYM7CzQSY1YdCNcBXjyiEOpXFgKAtWeHcSCmw7d5t4CgLNng$ > > > I'm curious how Vygotsky defined consciousness? I'm > not recollecting it at the moment. Maybe Andy could > explain? > > On a different related topic I stumbled on these > articles on AI created artwork: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/when-the-line-between-machine-and-artist-becomes-blurred-103149__;!!Mih3wA!XbYmB_z-uAeKpBg65taY2coYM7CzQSY1YdCNcBXjyiEOpXFgKAtWeHcSCmw7d5vGl1cCKw$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/arts/design/ai-art-sold-christies.html__;!!Mih3wA!XbYmB_z-uAeKpBg65taY2coYM7CzQSY1YdCNcBXjyiEOpXFgKAtWeHcSCmw7d5uKHFexYQ$ > > > What happens to labor as defined by Marx when the > computer or the robot end up overriding human craft > and labor? Is it a development in which value shifts? > or is it the equation that determines value remains > the same with different exponentially-numbered inputs > that provides a different salient output? > > AI seems to be a kind of mirror-neuron wind up toy, if > only because the inputs are required first in order to > come up with simulacra outputs to then be considered > art (by Christie's, no less). > > This made me consider 3-D printers as well. If someone > can take a car part, scan it, and re-print the part > for pennies, I'd guess that auto manufacturing is > about to explode from this technological change. > > I'm wondering what Walter Benjamin would think about > AI created portraiture (I'm thinking specifically > about his wonderful essay on art here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!XbYmB_z-uAeKpBg65taY2coYM7CzQSY1YdCNcBXjyiEOpXFgKAtWeHcSCmw7d5sEJ68x3w$ > > ), but what about reproduction of the reproduction of > car parts? I pause as I consider the future of > manufacturing parts that used to require large iron > forges, machinery, welding, engineering, etc. > > If there are printing communities that spring up to > print parts (and there are) and they could conceivably > create a car not much above the value of the steel > materials, what happens to General Motors? Will it > suffer the same demise as Kodak? > > I noticed that HP is coming out with industrial > printers that seem to indicate the arrival of this > sort of change: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers/products/multi-jet-fusion-5200.html__;!!Mih3wA!XbYmB_z-uAeKpBg65taY2coYM7CzQSY1YdCNcBXjyiEOpXFgKAtWeHcSCmw7d5s8z9flkA$ > > > There have been online communities that show how to > make one's own 3-D printer. So I wonder how this > innovation will become absorbed into manufacturing? > > Remember the desktop publishing revolution? > > This quote by Paul Val?ry opens Benjamin's essay and > reflects relevance to my questions: > > ?Our fine arts were developed, their types and > uses were established, in times very different > from the present, by men whose power of action > upon things was insignificant in comparison with > ours. But the amazing growth of our techniques, > the adaptability and precision they have attained, > the ideas and habits they are creating, make it a > certainty that profound changes are impending in > the ancient craft of the Beautiful. In all the > arts there is a physical component which can no > longer be considered or treated as it used to be, > which cannot remain unaffected by our modern > knowledge and power. For the last twenty years > neither matter nor space nor time has been what it > was from time immemorial. We must expect great > innovations to transform the entire technique of > the arts, thereby affecting artistic invention > itself and perhaps even bringing about an amazing > change in our very notion of art.?* > > > Paul Val?ry, PI?CES SUR L?ART > ?Le Conquete de l?ubiquit?,? Paris. > > > I look forward to hearing the sparkling conversations > these articles might inspire. > > Do tell. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > -- > > > IAngelus Novus > > > The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in > 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 > > --------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!XbYmB_z-uAeKpBg65taY2coYM7CzQSY1YdCNcBXjyiEOpXFgKAtWeHcSCmw7d5uVRqiVFw$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200724/84e97229/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jul 23 21:48:41 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 14:48:41 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> Message-ID: <0cb39678-fb9c-178f-b49c-3be15e5e4e43@marxists.org> I just finished reading "Tale of Two Cities" in the early hours this morning and was wondering what I would be doing today. Now I know. :) My first reactions are (1) I never use the term "affect", (2) I doubt there is a settled distinction between affect and emotion which stretches from Spinoza to the present day. But I think your question is really about what was the distinction for *Spinoza*, since it is Spinoza's distinctions which fascinated Vygotsky. The Latin word which is conventionally translated as "emotion" is /affectus/. Which in itself causes me to doubt whether there really is a distinction between emotion and affect at all. The Latin word /affectione/ is a mode of a substance, that is, any predicate or attribute of something, presumably caused by the action of some other body. Passion(s) are states of the body which has been affected by some cause, in which the person does not know the cause, and consequently does not move to appropriate action. I think (/sic!/) that an emotion is an affect which has an object and is thus part of the formation of an action in response to the cause. I think (again/sic!/) that for Spinoza (and Hegel) the relevant distinctions are made in terms of a development from a "feeling" (for Hegel at least) which does not have any object or source for the subject up to a conscious response directed at an object. An "emotion" for Spinoza, I think, is an embryonic action, but every affect does not necessary lead to an action, since some simply engender "passions." Spinoza's ethics is, I think, about awareness of the cause of our passions, and therefore of being able to develop them into appropriate actions to restore equanimity. I'm not sure of any of this. But I find Hegel's use of "feeling" for those disturbances of the body for which we don't have an object, in distinction to "sensation" as feelings which we can ascribe to some particular object, be it internal or external, leading to the culturally determined perception of an object and action towards it. And I accept the general idea of "emotions" as action-readiness. A lot of people today make the distinction between "feeling" and "emotion" differently, in terms of cultural interpretations of states of the body? - which I think is an entirely plausible and useful way of seeing things, but deploys the word "feeling" differently. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/07/2020 2:58 am, mike cole wrote: > how does the term, emotion, differ from the term, affect, > in your interpretation, Andy? > I am trying to get a stable understanding? that links > Spinoza's ideas to Vygotsky's regarding > "the unity of concept and affect/emotion". > mike > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 4:19 AM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are > subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion > /is/ the state of a whole organism, in particular, a > mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we > wave to someone. > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >> >> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated >> merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; >> but they form at the same time a physical system for >> the expression of mental states, and in this way they >> get quite another interpretation." >> >> The only problem is the word "expression".?In the >> James-Lange theory, the mental states are the >> expression of the viscera and the organs.?But perhaps >> that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and >> organs are a system that expresses a state which we >> interpret as an emotion. >> >> (I remember a dear?friend of mine getting a messy >> divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was >> losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that >> was broken but his stomach....) >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and >> a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VwS2vd2Oo_qkWnYt4C8jB5T-uVOv98Qp-tQKjcY-MY3Oxa3mqPYshe6bWozVQlP9Rdyfwg$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >> Foundations of Pedology/" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VwS2vd2Oo_qkWnYt4C8jB5T-uVOv98Qp-tQKjcY-MY3Oxa3mqPYshe6bWozVQlMxtdyzCQ$ >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll >> probably be interested in 402 as well. >> >> One other possibility: The "official" way of >> citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in >> the authoritative version of /Hegel Werke/. The >> German word for "page" is /Seite/, so you would >> say "S. 401" of the /Enc/, This turns out also to >> be an interesting passage of the Subjective >> Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the >> infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much >> reduced form, not like in the /Phenomenology of >> Spirit/. >> >> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, >> in German. English translation is here: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!VwS2vd2Oo_qkWnYt4C8jB5T-uVOv98Qp-tQKjcY-MY3Oxa3mqPYshe6bWozVQlM_a3yuKQ$ >> >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of >>> the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: >>> >>> * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken >>> as Psychology >>> * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as >>> Social Theory, and >>> * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, >>> Science and Philosophy. >>> >>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These >>> do vary between 2 or? editions, but these will >>> be limited probably by those translated into >>> English, >>> >>> I would start with the 1930 version" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!VwS2vd2Oo_qkWnYt4C8jB5T-uVOv98Qp-tQKjcY-MY3Oxa3mqPYshe6bWozVQlPgYoYjqA$ >>> >>> - a very early stage in the development of >>> mental life, or. >>> >>> The 1817 version has >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!VwS2vd2Oo_qkWnYt4C8jB5T-uVOv98Qp-tQKjcY-MY3Oxa3mqPYshe6bWozVQlMZqO0JuQ$ >>> >>> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a >>> version of Objective Spirit. >>> >>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it >>> written by his students on the basis of Hegel's >>> lectures which is a long discourse on the >>> development of thinking from sensation. I am >>> thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy >>> it and send it on. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on >>>> Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that >>>> are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" >>>> series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it >>>> will have a lot of pictures with questions and >>>> answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. >>>> >>>> We've got to figure out the text first. For >>>> example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: >>>> >>>> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting >>>> that a crude anticipation of James' theory is >>>> found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >>>> >>>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? >>>> If so, does the number refer to a page number >>>> or a section or what? >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!VwS2vd2Oo_qkWnYt4C8jB5T-uVOv98Qp-tQKjcY-MY3Oxa3mqPYshe6bWozVQlPYdbZqpQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VwS2vd2Oo_qkWnYt4C8jB5T-uVOv98Qp-tQKjcY-MY3Oxa3mqPYshe6bWozVQlP9Rdyfwg$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VwS2vd2Oo_qkWnYt4C8jB5T-uVOv98Qp-tQKjcY-MY3Oxa3mqPYshe6bWozVQlMxtdyzCQ$ >>>> >> > > > -- > > > IAngelus Novus > > > The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in > 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 > > --------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VwS2vd2Oo_qkWnYt4C8jB5T-uVOv98Qp-tQKjcY-MY3Oxa3mqPYshe6bWozVQlOHb5zBnA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200724/3ebaa427/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jul 23 22:04:31 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 15:04:31 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> Message-ID: There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of Spirit. It has almost innumerable grades of mind between the indeterminate "feeling" which might cause a new-born to cry without any kind of awareness, up to political action to resolve the social problem at the root of the "disturbance." All these are states of a whole body and its relation to its environment. Hegel does talk about "expulsion" where are person takes action - shouting, sobbing, .. - to relieve the feeling, a process which can be more or less rational. But he does not have a mental state over there and a body over there, or one expressing itself in the other. Probably my analogy of hand-waving was inappropriate. That's obviously not the same as your hair standing on end when you get a creepy feeling or the stomach ache which tells you it's dinner time. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote: > Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The > James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, > your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion > is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any > rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. > > I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of > the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree > that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental > state of?affairs?expressed in physiological changes in the > viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the > visceral/vascular state of affairs?expressed in a mental > one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't > agree with Andy's waving analogy....) > > Spinoza?uses the term "affect" or "affection"?instead. It > means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a > body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This > can either increase or decrease the potential for a body > for?activity. The problem is that in order to make this a > theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has > to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza > can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into > psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) > : > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a > manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u6yF54jiw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u5vc6I2uA$ > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are > subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion > /is/ the state of a whole organism, in particular, a > mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we > wave to someone. > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >> >> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated >> merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; >> but they form at the same time a physical system for >> the expression of mental states, and in this way they >> get quite another interpretation." >> >> The only problem is the word "expression".?In the >> James-Lange theory, the mental states are the >> expression of the viscera and the organs.?But perhaps >> that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and >> organs are a system that expresses a state which we >> interpret as an emotion. >> >> (I remember a dear?friend of mine getting a messy >> divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was >> losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that >> was broken but his stomach....) >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and >> a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u6yF54jiw$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >> Foundations of Pedology/" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u5vc6I2uA$ >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll >> probably be interested in 402 as well. >> >> One other possibility: The "official" way of >> citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in >> the authoritative version of /Hegel Werke/. The >> German word for "page" is /Seite/, so you would >> say "S. 401" of the /Enc/, This turns out also to >> be an interesting passage of the Subjective >> Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the >> infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much >> reduced form, not like in the /Phenomenology of >> Spirit/. >> >> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, >> in German. English translation is here: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u4aW3ZSXQ$ >> >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of >>> the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: >>> >>> * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken >>> as Psychology >>> * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as >>> Social Theory, and >>> * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, >>> Science and Philosophy. >>> >>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These >>> do vary between 2 or? editions, but these will >>> be limited probably by those translated into >>> English, >>> >>> I would start with the 1930 version" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u5ZwbWgFw$ >>> >>> - a very early stage in the development of >>> mental life, or. >>> >>> The 1817 version has >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u7A86_TiA$ >>> >>> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a >>> version of Objective Spirit. >>> >>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it >>> written by his students on the basis of Hegel's >>> lectures which is a long discourse on the >>> development of thinking from sensation. I am >>> thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy >>> it and send it on. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on >>>> Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that >>>> are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" >>>> series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it >>>> will have a lot of pictures with questions and >>>> answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. >>>> >>>> We've got to figure out the text first. For >>>> example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: >>>> >>>> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting >>>> that a crude anticipation of James' theory is >>>> found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >>>> >>>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? >>>> If so, does the number refer to a page number >>>> or a section or what? >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u7QXgIFZg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u6yF54jiw$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u5vc6I2uA$ >>>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200724/61a5837b/attachment.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Fri Jul 24 01:28:09 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 08:28:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> , Message-ID: Mind, Hegel and Collingwood The mind seems to be not so much that which thinks as the thinking itself; it is not an active thing so much as an activity (Religion & Philosophy 1916 p.100) - if you want to know the mind of a cobbler, then study the boots he has made ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: 24 July 2020 05:04 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of Spirit. It has almost innumerable grades of mind between the indeterminate "feeling" which might cause a new-born to cry without any kind of awareness, up to political action to resolve the social problem at the root of the "disturbance." All these are states of a whole body and its relation to its environment. Hegel does talk about "expulsion" where are person takes action - shouting, sobbing, .. - to relieve the feeling, a process which can be more or less rational. But he does not have a mental state over there and a body over there, or one expressing itself in the other. Probably my analogy of hand-waving was inappropriate. That's obviously not the same as your hair standing on end when you get a creepy feeling or the stomach ache which tells you it's dinner time. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote: Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VPc6L9k8FMdopK5sgWR-R_UgFffTvaEtGkITeFXAVD50M7sle4DIC0H_FlipRnTTPPZ1Pg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VPc6L9k8FMdopK5sgWR-R_UgFffTvaEtGkITeFXAVD50M7sle4DIC0H_FlipRnRwzRgAHw$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion is the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Thanks, Andy--this is it! "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VPc6L9k8FMdopK5sgWR-R_UgFffTvaEtGkITeFXAVD50M7sle4DIC0H_FlipRnTTPPZ1Pg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VPc6L9k8FMdopK5sgWR-R_UgFffTvaEtGkITeFXAVD50M7sle4DIC0H_FlipRnRwzRgAHw$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of Hegel Werke. The German word for "page" is Seite, so you would say "S. 401" of the Enc, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the Phenomenology of Spirit. See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!VPc6L9k8FMdopK5sgWR-R_UgFffTvaEtGkITeFXAVD50M7sle4DIC0H_FlipRnQFE9RWDA$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!VPc6L9k8FMdopK5sgWR-R_UgFffTvaEtGkITeFXAVD50M7sle4DIC0H_FlipRnTdlznoPg$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!VPc6L9k8FMdopK5sgWR-R_UgFffTvaEtGkITeFXAVD50M7sle4DIC0H_FlipRnQkllxF8A$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!VPc6L9k8FMdopK5sgWR-R_UgFffTvaEtGkITeFXAVD50M7sle4DIC0H_FlipRnSezR449w$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!VPc6L9k8FMdopK5sgWR-R_UgFffTvaEtGkITeFXAVD50M7sle4DIC0H_FlipRnTTPPZ1Pg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!VPc6L9k8FMdopK5sgWR-R_UgFffTvaEtGkITeFXAVD50M7sle4DIC0H_FlipRnRwzRgAHw$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200724/b22864d4/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Fri Jul 24 02:03:04 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 19:03:04 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> Message-ID: <1b9a4d04-9de0-8705-65f1-508a23b88971@marxists.org> Collingwood is great. Hard to get hold of work I think. And yes, /Geist /is an activity. Many writers of our day agree with that. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/07/2020 6:28 pm, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > Mind, Hegel and Collingwood > > The mind seems to be not so much that which thinks as the > thinking itself; it is not an active thing so much? as an > activity (Religion & Philosophy 1916 p.100) -? if you want > to know the mind of a cobbler, then study the boots he has > made > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy > Blunden > *Sent:* 24 July 2020 05:04 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of > Spirit. It has almost innumerable grades of mind between > the indeterminate "feeling" which might cause a new-born > to cry without any kind of awareness, up to political > action to resolve the social problem at the root of the > "disturbance." All these are states of a whole body and > its relation to its environment. Hegel does talk about > "expulsion" where are person takes action - shouting, > sobbing, .. - to relieve the feeling, a process which can > be more or less rational. But he does not have a mental > state over there and a body over there, or one expressing > itself in the other. Probably my analogy of hand-waving > was inappropriate. That's obviously not the same as your > hair standing on end when you get a creepy feeling or the > stomach ache which tells you it's dinner time. > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote: >> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The >> James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, >> your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the >> emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, >> at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual >> response. >> >> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation >> of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) >> agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a >> mental state of?affairs?expressed in physiological >> changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise >> a change in the visceral/vascular state of >> affairs?expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, >> I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving >> analogy....) >> >> Spinoza?uses the term "affect" or "affection"?instead. It >> means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which >> a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. >> This can either increase or decrease the potential for a >> body for?activity. The problem is that in order to make >> this a theory of specifically human emotions, this >> activity has to include the "activity" of making >> meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue >> without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. >> (Halliday can, though....) >> : >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a >> manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAFbWCftnA$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's >> Pedological Works/ /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAFQWbqq9A$ >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs >> are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The >> emotion /is/ the state of a whole organism, in >> particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a >> feeling when we wave to someone. >> >> andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >>> >>> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are >>> treated merely as parts subservient to the animal >>> organism; but they form at the same time a physical >>> system for the expression of mental states, and in >>> this way they get quite another interpretation." >>> >>> The only problem is the word "expression".?In the >>> James-Lange theory, the mental states are the >>> expression of the viscera and the organs.?But >>> perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the >>> viscera and organs are a system that expresses a >>> state which we interpret as an emotion. >>> >>> (I remember a dear?friend of mine getting a messy >>> divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was >>> losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart >>> that was broken but his stomach....) >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual >>> and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAFbWCftnA$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAFQWbqq9A$ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>> >>> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll >>> probably be interested in 402 as well. >>> >>> One other possibility: The "official" way of >>> citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in >>> the authoritative version of /Hegel Werke/. The >>> German word for "page" is /Seite/, so you would >>> say "S. 401" of the /Enc/, This turns out also >>> to be an interesting passage of the Subjective >>> Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with >>> the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a >>> much reduced form, not like in the >>> /Phenomenology of Spirit/. >>> >>> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, >>> in German. English translation is here: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAEuML0Hwg$ >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of >>>> the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: >>>> >>>> * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken >>>> as Psychology >>>> * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken >>>> as Social Theory, and >>>> * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, >>>> religion, Science and Philosophy. >>>> >>>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. >>>> These do vary between 2 or? editions, but these >>>> will be limited probably by those translated >>>> into English, >>>> >>>> I would start with the 1930 version" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAF8kawdjw$ >>>> >>>> - a very early stage in the development of >>>> mental life, or. >>>> >>>> The 1817 version has >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAFl5e1wRA$ >>>> >>>> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of >>>> a version of Objective Spirit. >>>> >>>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it >>>> written by his students on the basis of Hegel's >>>> lectures which is a long discourse on the >>>> development of thinking from sensation. I am >>>> thinking this is what you mean. I will >>>> photocopy it and send it on. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on >>>>> Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that >>>>> are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" >>>>> series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it >>>>> will have a lot of pictures with questions and >>>>> answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult >>>>> text. >>>>> >>>>> We've got to figure out the text first. For >>>>> example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: >>>>> >>>>> "On the historical side, it may be worth >>>>> noting that a crude anticipation of James' >>>>> theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des >>>>> Geistes, 401."? >>>>> >>>>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des >>>>> Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a >>>>> page number or a section or what? >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAHI7manrw$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAFbWCftnA$ >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAFQWbqq9A$ >>>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200724/6825cbb5/attachment.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Fri Jul 24 02:13:47 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:13:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: <1b9a4d04-9de0-8705-65f1-508a23b88971@marxists.org> References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> , <1b9a4d04-9de0-8705-65f1-508a23b88971@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hi Andy , there is a facsimile paperback edition of Religion & Philosophy published by Thoemmes Press - Key texts series - Classic Studies in the History of Ideas (mine is 1994). Should think this is not so had to source ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: 24 July 2020 09:03 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? Collingwood is great. Hard to get hold of work I think. And yes, Geist is an activity. Many writers of our day agree with that. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/07/2020 6:28 pm, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: Mind, Hegel and Collingwood The mind seems to be not so much that which thinks as the thinking itself; it is not an active thing so much as an activity (Religion & Philosophy 1916 p.100) - if you want to know the mind of a cobbler, then study the boots he has made ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: 24 July 2020 05:04 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of Spirit. It has almost innumerable grades of mind between the indeterminate "feeling" which might cause a new-born to cry without any kind of awareness, up to political action to resolve the social problem at the root of the "disturbance." All these are states of a whole body and its relation to its environment. Hegel does talk about "expulsion" where are person takes action - shouting, sobbing, .. - to relieve the feeling, a process which can be more or less rational. But he does not have a mental state over there and a body over there, or one expressing itself in the other. Probably my analogy of hand-waving was inappropriate. That's obviously not the same as your hair standing on end when you get a creepy feeling or the stomach ache which tells you it's dinner time. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote: Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XbZk3HTDhqGHmMFfVLNm2fOYRMLuL6k8vOtJXJ5cBNZ4keGrq-WFs7ufFHfW5Y02WmPPVw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XbZk3HTDhqGHmMFfVLNm2fOYRMLuL6k8vOtJXJ5cBNZ4keGrq-WFs7ufFHfW5Y31MwD48w$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion is the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Thanks, Andy--this is it! "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XbZk3HTDhqGHmMFfVLNm2fOYRMLuL6k8vOtJXJ5cBNZ4keGrq-WFs7ufFHfW5Y02WmPPVw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XbZk3HTDhqGHmMFfVLNm2fOYRMLuL6k8vOtJXJ5cBNZ4keGrq-WFs7ufFHfW5Y31MwD48w$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of Hegel Werke. The German word for "page" is Seite, so you would say "S. 401" of the Enc, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the Phenomenology of Spirit. See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!XbZk3HTDhqGHmMFfVLNm2fOYRMLuL6k8vOtJXJ5cBNZ4keGrq-WFs7ufFHfW5Y3G6kC8PA$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!XbZk3HTDhqGHmMFfVLNm2fOYRMLuL6k8vOtJXJ5cBNZ4keGrq-WFs7ufFHfW5Y2l0Leygg$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!XbZk3HTDhqGHmMFfVLNm2fOYRMLuL6k8vOtJXJ5cBNZ4keGrq-WFs7ufFHfW5Y0YZto2nQ$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!XbZk3HTDhqGHmMFfVLNm2fOYRMLuL6k8vOtJXJ5cBNZ4keGrq-WFs7ufFHfW5Y0XWkd35A$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XbZk3HTDhqGHmMFfVLNm2fOYRMLuL6k8vOtJXJ5cBNZ4keGrq-WFs7ufFHfW5Y02WmPPVw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!XbZk3HTDhqGHmMFfVLNm2fOYRMLuL6k8vOtJXJ5cBNZ4keGrq-WFs7ufFHfW5Y31MwD48w$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200724/99f14a2b/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jul 24 14:12:32 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 06:12:32 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness In-Reply-To: <643f81f9-3272-1330-f337-d549bb6d91ba@marxists.org> References: <643f81f9-3272-1330-f337-d549bb6d91ba@marxists.org> Message-ID: Andy's point about consciousness not having any "genera" which we might "specify" is related to a point I always have when people ask for definitions. What exactly is this definition for? One rather Talmudic reason why people like to define terms at the beginning of a discussion is so we can tell when folks are off topic ("clouds" and "lithosphere" do not belong to the realm of consciousness, Annalisa--naughty, naughty, naughly!) Another reason is so that we can decide whether particular discourses involve metaphor, sleight-of-hand, demagogery (the use of war rhetoric against a virus; conspiracy theories in general assume that all human events of consequence are the result of conscious ill will). But a third reason is so that we can decide where something comes from and determine the precise moment it starts being what it is (when does something that is not conscious acquire consciousness?) I think you can see that the first reason for defining contradicts the third one. That is, ruling this or that subject matter off topic will prevent you from ever finding something that is both not consciousness and consciousness. Halliday said that everything around us can be thought of as either matter or as meaning, and he thought whether matter and meaning are the same thing was an open question. For me, it is the question that Spinoza answered. We are anthropo-centric and so we tend to think of meaning as linguistic, as symbolism, as deliberate representations: making "this" stand for "that". But of course for most of time meaning-making was not deliberate in this way: red leaves in fall do not "stand for" winter, although they certainly came to mean that for hibernating animals, and the relationship between the physical changes that James and Lange (and Dewey and Hegel) are talking about are probably related to emotions in the same way. Meaning is organization; it is the defiance of entropy, and the very fact that both matter and information have entropy and defy it shows that Spinoza is right: everything around us can be thought of as either matter or as meaning, or as increasing or decreasing in entropy. Consciousness is simply the higest form of meaning-making, the most egregious and obvious way of flouting the second law of thermodynamics. That is why clouds mean rain, but in the long run--they don't; that is why the lithosphere means time, but in the long run it won't. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QX8A4s_69fPqrKgXcc7ABLWKBuAXO9ymR1-vTutmK9dbsKDeH-iDriK2EMxNudCBwKNwFg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QX8A4s_69fPqrKgXcc7ABLWKBuAXO9ymR1-vTutmK9dbsKDeH-iDriK2EMxNudB9vcXqMw$ On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 1:06 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > For Marxism, Annalisa, "consciousness" is an all-embracing category. It > does not refer to any specific "part" of the mind such as awareness, or in > distinction from some *other* part of the mind such as the Unconscious. > It is difficult to define because there is nothing more basic in terms of > which "consciousness" could be defined other than abstractions which in > turn rely on the concept of consciousness. So only a general sense can be > given. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 24/07/2020 5:05 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > Thank you for that! > > Of course then, my question is, what is the definition of "relationship"? > > Is there a relationship between the clouds and the lithosphere of the > earth? Would that mean that the clouds and earth are conscious? > > Another question I might offer, is perception a requisite for > consciousness? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 11:04 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Annalisa - > > I am sure there are more ways that LSV thought of consciousness, but a la > marx, I believe its "human being's relationship to > the environment"..... the rest of nature. Plenty of room for vibrations in > that formulation. > mike > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:00 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > Hello Xmcars, > > I'm not sure what the connection is but it seems there is one between > consciousness and art-making with AI, and 3D printers. > > This article (2018) about consciousness is from The Conversation. Perhaps > you might also like to read it: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/could-consciousness-all-come-down-to-the-way-things-vibrate-103070__;!!Mih3wA!QX8A4s_69fPqrKgXcc7ABLWKBuAXO9ymR1-vTutmK9dbsKDeH-iDriK2EMxNudCpVHZxLw$ > > > and a more recent one from last year by the same author is here: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/how-can-you-tell-if-another-person-animal-or-thing-is-conscious-try-these-3-tests-115835__;!!Mih3wA!QX8A4s_69fPqrKgXcc7ABLWKBuAXO9ymR1-vTutmK9dbsKDeH-iDriK2EMxNudDx4w1jqw$ > > > I'm curious how Vygotsky defined consciousness? I'm not recollecting it at > the moment. Maybe Andy could explain? > > On a different related topic I stumbled on these articles on AI created > artwork: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/when-the-line-between-machine-and-artist-becomes-blurred-103149__;!!Mih3wA!QX8A4s_69fPqrKgXcc7ABLWKBuAXO9ymR1-vTutmK9dbsKDeH-iDriK2EMxNudCbgnExYQ$ > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/arts/design/ai-art-sold-christies.html__;!!Mih3wA!QX8A4s_69fPqrKgXcc7ABLWKBuAXO9ymR1-vTutmK9dbsKDeH-iDriK2EMxNudCIyXshpQ$ > > > What happens to labor as defined by Marx when the computer or the robot > end up overriding human craft and labor? Is it a development in which value > shifts? or is it the equation that determines value remains the same with > different exponentially-numbered inputs that provides a different salient > output? > > AI seems to be a kind of mirror-neuron wind up toy, if only because the > inputs are required first in order to come up with simulacra outputs to > then be considered art (by Christie's, no less). > > This made me consider 3-D printers as well. If someone can take a car > part, scan it, and re-print the part for pennies, I'd guess that auto > manufacturing is about to explode from this technological change. > > I'm wondering what Walter Benjamin would think about AI created > portraiture (I'm thinking specifically about his wonderful essay on art > here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!QX8A4s_69fPqrKgXcc7ABLWKBuAXO9ymR1-vTutmK9dbsKDeH-iDriK2EMxNudBT2nVTWg$ > > ), but what about reproduction of the reproduction of car parts? I pause as > I consider the future of manufacturing parts that used to require large > iron forges, machinery, welding, engineering, etc. > > If there are printing communities that spring up to print parts (and there > are) and they could conceivably create a car not much above the value of > the steel materials, what happens to General Motors? Will it suffer the > same demise as Kodak? > > I noticed that HP is coming out with industrial printers that seem to > indicate the arrival of this sort of change: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers/products/multi-jet-fusion-5200.html__;!!Mih3wA!QX8A4s_69fPqrKgXcc7ABLWKBuAXO9ymR1-vTutmK9dbsKDeH-iDriK2EMxNudCc6493Yw$ > > > There have been online communities that show how to make one's own 3-D > printer. So I wonder how this innovation will become absorbed into > manufacturing? > > Remember the desktop publishing revolution? > > This quote by Paul Val?ry opens Benjamin's essay and reflects relevance > to my questions: > > ?Our fine arts were developed, their types and uses were established, in > times very different from the present, by men whose power of action upon > things was insignificant in comparison with ours. But the amazing growth > of our techniques, the adaptability and precision they have attained, the > ideas and habits they are creating, make it a certainty that profound > changes are impending in the ancient craft of the Beautiful. In all the arts > there is a physical component which can no longer be considered or > treated as it used to be, which cannot remain unaffected by our modern > knowledge and power. For the last twenty years neither matter nor space > nor time has been what it was from time immemorial. We must expect great > innovations to transform the entire technique of the arts, thereby > affecting artistic invention itself and perhaps even bringing about an > amazing change in our very notion of art.?* > > > Paul Val?ry, PI?CES SUR L?ART > ?Le Conquete de l?ubiquit?,? Paris. > > > I look forward to hearing the sparkling conversations these articles might > inspire. > > Do tell. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > -- > > I[image: Angelus Novus] > > > The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to > Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 > > --------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QX8A4s_69fPqrKgXcc7ABLWKBuAXO9ymR1-vTutmK9dbsKDeH-iDriK2EMxNudBy0fLowA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/b08875b5/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jul 24 19:48:51 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 19:48:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: <1b9a4d04-9de0-8705-65f1-508a23b88971@marxists.org> References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> <1b9a4d04-9de0-8705-65f1-508a23b88971@marxists.org> Message-ID: Why restrict ourselves to observing the boot, Andy? Why not study the process of the boot's coming into being historically and in contemporary activities that bring boots into being? In psychology a focus on products not processes is a constant, justified complaint of critical scholars I have been reading. What am I missing? mike On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 2:05 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > Collingwood is great. Hard to get hold of work I think. > > And yes, *Geist *is an activity. Many writers of our day agree with that. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 24/07/2020 6:28 pm, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > Mind, Hegel and Collingwood > > The mind seems to be not so much that which thinks as the thinking itself; > it is not an active thing so much as an activity (Religion & Philosophy > 1916 p.100) - if you want to know the mind of a cobbler, then study the > boots he has made > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* 24 July 2020 05:04 > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > > There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of Spirit. It has almost > innumerable grades of mind between the indeterminate "feeling" which might > cause a new-born to cry without any kind of awareness, up to political > action to resolve the social problem at the root of the "disturbance." All > these are states of a whole body and its relation to its environment. Hegel > does talk about "expulsion" where are person takes action - shouting, > sobbing, .. - to relieve the feeling, a process which can be more or less > rational. But he does not have a mental state over there and a body over > there, or one expressing itself in the other. Probably my analogy of > hand-waving was inappropriate. That's obviously not the same as your hair > standing on end when you get a creepy feeling or the stomach ache which > tells you it's dinner time. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote: > > Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is > what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles > respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at > any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. > > I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is > crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is > "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in > physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a > change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. > (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's > waving analogy....) > > Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or > less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the > environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the > potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make > this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include > the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT > issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, > though....) > : > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcDtFHlD3Q$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcCdbfIR3g$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts > of the whole organism. The emotion *is* the state of a whole organism, in > particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to > someone. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Thanks, Andy--this is it! > > "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts > subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a > physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they > get quite another interpretation." > > The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the > mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps > that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system > that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. > > (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, > when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart > that was broken but his stomach....) > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcDtFHlD3Q$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcCdbfIR3g$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 > as well. > > One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to > cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The > German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the *Enc*, > This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, > on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, > though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology of Spirit*. > > See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English > translation is here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcAxSp2Jtw$ > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself > composed of three parts: > > - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology > - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and > - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. > > The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or > editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into > English, > > I would start with the 1930 version" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcB5In0ZgA$ > > - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. > > The 1817 version has > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcAEuXVCZA$ > > - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective > Spirit. > The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the > basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of > thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will > photocopy it and send it on. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those > cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). > It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with > questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. > > We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey > mean when he says: > > "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation > of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? > > Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number > refer to a page number or a section or what? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcANixzkOQ$ > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcDtFHlD3Q$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcCdbfIR3g$ > > > > -- I[image: Angelus Novus] The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 --------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcB7eRB5Zw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200724/87ecf882/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sat Jul 25 01:42:03 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:42:03 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> <1b9a4d04-9de0-8705-65f1-508a23b88971@marxists.org> Message-ID: <8d48664d-2d4b-4165-94e0-0573fed244d5@marxists.org> Please explain, Mike. What boot? What am /I/ missing? andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 25/07/2020 12:48 pm, mike cole wrote: > Why restrict ourselves to observing?the boot, Andy? Why > not study the process of the boot's coming?into being > historically and in contemporary activities?that bring boots > into being? In psychology?a focus on products not > processes is a constant, justified complaint of critical > scholars I have been reading. > What am I missing? > mike > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 2:05 AM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > Collingwood is great. Hard to get hold of work I think. > > And yes, /Geist /is an activity. Many writers of our > day agree with that. > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/07/2020 6:28 pm, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: >> Mind, Hegel and Collingwood >> >> The mind seems to be not so much that which thinks as >> the thinking itself; it is not an active thing so >> much? as an activity (Religion & Philosophy 1916 >> p.100) -? if you want to know the mind of a cobbler, >> then study the boots he has made >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> on behalf of >> Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* 24 July 2020 05:04 >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of >> Spirit. It has almost innumerable grades of mind >> between the indeterminate "feeling" which might cause >> a new-born to cry without any kind of awareness, up >> to political action to resolve the social problem at >> the root of the "disturbance." All these are states >> of a whole body and its relation to its environment. >> Hegel does talk about "expulsion" where are person >> takes action - shouting, sobbing, .. - to relieve the >> feeling, a process which can be more or less >> rational. But he does not have a mental state over >> there and a body over there, or one expressing itself >> in the other. Probably my analogy of hand-waving was >> inappropriate. That's obviously not the same as your >> hair standing on end when you get a creepy feeling or >> the stomach ache which tells you it's dinner time. >> >> andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The >>> James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive >>> something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles >>> respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that >>> happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be >>> thinking of the male sexual response. >>> >>> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's >>> anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky >>> wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is >>> "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state >>> of?affairs?expressed in physiological changes in the >>> viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change >>> in the visceral/vascular state of affairs?expressed >>> in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that >>> Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) >>> >>> Spinoza?uses the term "affect" or >>> "affection"?instead. It means more or less what it >>> sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by >>> the environment and vice versa. This can either >>> increase or decrease the potential for a body >>> for?activity. The problem is that in order to make >>> this a theory of specifically human emotions, this >>> activity has to include the "activity" of making >>> meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT >>> issue without slipping into psycho-physical >>> parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) >>> : >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual >>> and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Rh24wCoadXz_rphQ50bNGcFrTsP3KADug8rGhyyHsvHKEj8TTrej9qJot19z0fkAnYf0-w$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rh24wCoadXz_rphQ50bNGcFrTsP3KADug8rGhyyHsvHKEj8TTrej9qJot19z0fl8br_5Zg$ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>> >>> No, don't turn it around. The point is that >>> organs are subordinate parts of the whole >>> organism. The emotion /is/ the state of a whole >>> organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a >>> hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. >>> >>> andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >>>> >>>> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are >>>> treated merely as parts subservient to the >>>> animal organism; but they form at the same time >>>> a physical system for the expression of mental >>>> states, and in this way they get quite another >>>> interpretation." >>>> >>>> The only problem is the word "expression".?In >>>> the James-Lange theory, the mental states are >>>> the expression of the viscera and the >>>> organs.?But perhaps that's what Hegel really >>>> means here: the viscera and organs are a system >>>> that expresses a state which we interpret as an >>>> emotion. >>>> >>>> (I remember a dear?friend of mine getting a >>>> messy divorce and remarking, when I worried >>>> that he was losing a lot of weight, that it >>>> wasn't his heart that was broken but his >>>> stomach....) >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Rh24wCoadXz_rphQ50bNGcFrTsP3KADug8rGhyyHsvHKEj8TTrej9qJot19z0fkAnYf0-w$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rh24wCoadXz_rphQ50bNGcFrTsP3KADug8rGhyyHsvHKEj8TTrej9qJot19z0fl8br_5Zg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll >>>> probably be interested in 402 as well. >>>> >>>> One other possibility: The "official" way >>>> of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the >>>> page no. in the authoritative version of >>>> /Hegel Werke/. The German word for "page" >>>> is /Seite/, so you would say "S. 401" of >>>> the /Enc/, This turns out also to be an >>>> interesting passage of the Subjective >>>> Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned >>>> with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, >>>> though in a much reduced form, not like in >>>> the /Phenomenology of Spirit/. >>>> >>>> See p. 401 in the other attachment, >>>> ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation >>>> is here: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Rh24wCoadXz_rphQ50bNGcFrTsP3KADug8rGhyyHsvHKEj8TTrej9qJot19z0fn1SOhZqQ$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part >>>>> of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of >>>>> three parts: >>>>> >>>>> * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly >>>>> taken as Psychology >>>>> * Objective Spirit, which is commonly >>>>> taken as Social Theory, and >>>>> * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, >>>>> religion, Science and Philosophy. >>>>> >>>>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. >>>>> These do vary between 2 or? editions, but >>>>> these will be limited probably by those >>>>> translated into English, >>>>> >>>>> I would start with the 1930 version" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Rh24wCoadXz_rphQ50bNGcFrTsP3KADug8rGhyyHsvHKEj8TTrej9qJot19z0fk6rIZ3Zg$ >>>>> >>>>> - a very early stage in the development of >>>>> mental life, or. >>>>> >>>>> The 1817 version has >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Rh24wCoadXz_rphQ50bNGcFrTsP3KADug8rGhyyHsvHKEj8TTrej9qJot19z0fmbUsjvRA$ >>>>> >>>>> - this version puts s. 401 at the >>>>> beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. >>>>> >>>>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it >>>>> written by his students on the basis of >>>>> Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse >>>>> on the development of thinking from >>>>> sensation. I am thinking this is what you >>>>> mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's >>>>>> "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those >>>>>> cartoon books that are so popular here in >>>>>> Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not >>>>>> Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a >>>>>> lot of pictures with questions and >>>>>> answers alongside Vygotsky's rather >>>>>> difficult text. >>>>>> >>>>>> We've got to figure out the text first. >>>>>> For example, what does John Dewey mean >>>>>> when he says: >>>>>> >>>>>> "On the historical side, it may be worth >>>>>> noting that a crude anticipation of >>>>>> James' theory is found in Hegel's >>>>>> Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >>>>>> >>>>>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des >>>>>> Geistes? If so, does the number refer to >>>>>> a page number or a section or what? >>>>>> >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!Rh24wCoadXz_rphQ50bNGcFrTsP3KADug8rGhyyHsvHKEj8TTrej9qJot19z0fkD8GPtvw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>> >>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: >>>>>> A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Rh24wCoadXz_rphQ50bNGcFrTsP3KADug8rGhyyHsvHKEj8TTrej9qJot19z0fkAnYf0-w$ >>>>>> >>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: >>>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ >>>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Rh24wCoadXz_rphQ50bNGcFrTsP3KADug8rGhyyHsvHKEj8TTrej9qJot19z0fl8br_5Zg$ >>>>>> >>>> > > > -- > > > IAngelus Novus > > > The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in > 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 > > --------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Rh24wCoadXz_rphQ50bNGcFrTsP3KADug8rGhyyHsvHKEj8TTrej9qJot19z0fl_SsMZSA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/d2c2a69e/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sat Jul 25 01:50:19 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:50:19 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> <1b9a4d04-9de0-8705-65f1-508a23b88971@marxists.org> Message-ID: Oh, I see: "if you want to know the mind of a cobbler, then study the boots he has made." The focus on the object of activity to which Collingwood directs our attention, should not, I think, be seen as excluding understanding of the activity. He is saying: don't look inside his head, look at what he is /doing/, his object-oriented activity. True, there are different ways of making boots of the same quality, and the concept is includes /how/ the boot is produced as well as /what/ was produced, Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 25/07/2020 12:48 pm, mike cole wrote: > Why restrict ourselves to observing?the boot, Andy? Why > not study the process of the boot's coming?into being > historically and in contemporary activities?that bring boots > into being? In psychology?a focus on products not > processes is a constant, justified complaint of critical > scholars I have been reading. > What am I missing? > mike > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 2:05 AM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > Collingwood is great. Hard to get hold of work I think. > > And yes, /Geist /is an activity. Many writers of our > day agree with that. > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/07/2020 6:28 pm, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: >> Mind, Hegel and Collingwood >> >> The mind seems to be not so much that which thinks as >> the thinking itself; it is not an active thing so >> much? as an activity (Religion & Philosophy 1916 >> p.100) -? if you want to know the mind of a cobbler, >> then study the boots he has made >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> on behalf of >> Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* 24 July 2020 05:04 >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of >> Spirit. It has almost innumerable grades of mind >> between the indeterminate "feeling" which might cause >> a new-born to cry without any kind of awareness, up >> to political action to resolve the social problem at >> the root of the "disturbance." All these are states >> of a whole body and its relation to its environment. >> Hegel does talk about "expulsion" where are person >> takes action - shouting, sobbing, .. - to relieve the >> feeling, a process which can be more or less >> rational. But he does not have a mental state over >> there and a body over there, or one expressing itself >> in the other. Probably my analogy of hand-waving was >> inappropriate. That's obviously not the same as your >> hair standing on end when you get a creepy feeling or >> the stomach ache which tells you it's dinner time. >> >> andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The >>> James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive >>> something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles >>> respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that >>> happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be >>> thinking of the male sexual response. >>> >>> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's >>> anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky >>> wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is >>> "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state >>> of?affairs?expressed in physiological changes in the >>> viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change >>> in the visceral/vascular state of affairs?expressed >>> in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that >>> Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) >>> >>> Spinoza?uses the term "affect" or >>> "affection"?instead. It means more or less what it >>> sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by >>> the environment and vice versa. This can either >>> increase or decrease the potential for a body >>> for?activity. The problem is that in order to make >>> this a theory of specifically human emotions, this >>> activity has to include the "activity" of making >>> meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT >>> issue without slipping into psycho-physical >>> parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) >>> : >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual >>> and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuHEDA5UbQ$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuHvKOkAHw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>> >>> No, don't turn it around. The point is that >>> organs are subordinate parts of the whole >>> organism. The emotion /is/ the state of a whole >>> organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a >>> hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. >>> >>> andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >>>> >>>> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are >>>> treated merely as parts subservient to the >>>> animal organism; but they form at the same time >>>> a physical system for the expression of mental >>>> states, and in this way they get quite another >>>> interpretation." >>>> >>>> The only problem is the word "expression".?In >>>> the James-Lange theory, the mental states are >>>> the expression of the viscera and the >>>> organs.?But perhaps that's what Hegel really >>>> means here: the viscera and organs are a system >>>> that expresses a state which we interpret as an >>>> emotion. >>>> >>>> (I remember a dear?friend of mine getting a >>>> messy divorce and remarking, when I worried >>>> that he was losing a lot of weight, that it >>>> wasn't his heart that was broken but his >>>> stomach....) >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuHEDA5UbQ$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuHvKOkAHw$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll >>>> probably be interested in 402 as well. >>>> >>>> One other possibility: The "official" way >>>> of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the >>>> page no. in the authoritative version of >>>> /Hegel Werke/. The German word for "page" >>>> is /Seite/, so you would say "S. 401" of >>>> the /Enc/, This turns out also to be an >>>> interesting passage of the Subjective >>>> Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned >>>> with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, >>>> though in a much reduced form, not like in >>>> the /Phenomenology of Spirit/. >>>> >>>> See p. 401 in the other attachment, >>>> ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation >>>> is here: >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuF9A4p8Bg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part >>>>> of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of >>>>> three parts: >>>>> >>>>> * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly >>>>> taken as Psychology >>>>> * Objective Spirit, which is commonly >>>>> taken as Social Theory, and >>>>> * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, >>>>> religion, Science and Philosophy. >>>>> >>>>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. >>>>> These do vary between 2 or? editions, but >>>>> these will be limited probably by those >>>>> translated into English, >>>>> >>>>> I would start with the 1930 version" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuFnVFjyJQ$ >>>>> >>>>> - a very early stage in the development of >>>>> mental life, or. >>>>> >>>>> The 1817 version has >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuHlVb8IBg$ >>>>> >>>>> - this version puts s. 401 at the >>>>> beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. >>>>> >>>>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it >>>>> written by his students on the basis of >>>>> Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse >>>>> on the development of thinking from >>>>> sensation. I am thinking this is what you >>>>> mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's >>>>>> "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those >>>>>> cartoon books that are so popular here in >>>>>> Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not >>>>>> Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a >>>>>> lot of pictures with questions and >>>>>> answers alongside Vygotsky's rather >>>>>> difficult text. >>>>>> >>>>>> We've got to figure out the text first. >>>>>> For example, what does John Dewey mean >>>>>> when he says: >>>>>> >>>>>> "On the historical side, it may be worth >>>>>> noting that a crude anticipation of >>>>>> James' theory is found in Hegel's >>>>>> Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >>>>>> >>>>>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des >>>>>> Geistes? If so, does the number refer to >>>>>> a page number or a section or what? >>>>>> >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuFnJZcsog$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>> >>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: >>>>>> A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuHEDA5UbQ$ >>>>>> >>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: >>>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ >>>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuHvKOkAHw$ >>>>>> >>>> > > > -- > > > IAngelus Novus > > > The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in > 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 > > --------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuGagxvevA$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/6d21c247/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sat Jul 25 05:10:02 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 08:10:02 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Digital Blocks? Message-ID: Hello, Does anyone know of a digital version of the Sahkarov blocks experiment, perhaps even in game form? My searches have come up empty. Fot those with know-how, such a program doesn't seem too hard to code, so I thought it might exist. Thanks for any tips. And for anyone who has yet to see this video demonstration of the experiment, check it out; it's really great: "Paula Towsey on the Blocks Experiment" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://vimeo.com/10689139__;!!Mih3wA!URJGSvzxUAN656OH_HAlZBHli5paaz9e8r-iFlDMiC4z7gSE3hhrepPnK3-K7LMQJz1e2g$ Thank you again, Anthony P.S. It sounds like Paula was a lovely woman: https://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/2014-August/002301.html RIP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/cd3ad015/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Jul 25 06:58:25 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 14:58:25 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Digital Blocks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Anthony, I wrote one for part of BSc project at Birkbek. Rather than about block categories it was about grouping of food using "tile" images of the foods. Huw On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 at 13:12, Anthony Barra wrote: > Hello, > > Does anyone know of a digital version of the Sahkarov blocks experiment, > perhaps even in game form? My searches have come up empty. > > Fot those with know-how, such a program doesn't seem too hard to code, so > I thought it might exist. Thanks for any tips. > > And for anyone who has yet to see this video demonstration of the > experiment, check it out; it's really great: "Paula Towsey on the Blocks > Experiment" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://vimeo.com/10689139__;!!Mih3wA!WwNEZVcmSL8dzTmbn9h6CYenEiOB1Y4WvDuhmOB_DABBHQKbGce0cXCA7L0tm65B_Eh1fA$ > > > Thank you again, > Anthony > > P.S. It sounds like Paula was a lovely woman: > https://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/2014-August/002301.html RIP > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/538bd944/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sat Jul 25 08:13:51 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 11:13:51 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Digital Blocks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes. Is it public? On Saturday, July 25, 2020, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Hi Anthony, > > I wrote one for part of BSc project at Birkbek. Rather than about > block categories it was about grouping of food using "tile" images of the > foods. > > Huw > > On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 at 13:12, Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Does anyone know of a digital version of the Sahkarov blocks experiment, >> perhaps even in game form? My searches have come up empty. >> >> Fot those with know-how, such a program doesn't seem too hard to code, so >> I thought it might exist. Thanks for any tips. >> >> And for anyone who has yet to see this video demonstration of the >> experiment, check it out; it's really great: "Paula Towsey on the Blocks >> Experiment" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://vimeo.com/10689139__;!!Mih3wA!Qu4qChxa3NotaBv7vXYTPRrcts9ZbnyNdTYZyoSD7KF8AmJEV0Z0rlmkKlW_uXvQA7ntCg$ >> >> >> Thank you again, >> Anthony >> >> P.S. It sounds like Paula was a lovely woman: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailman.ucsd__;!!Mih3wA!Qu4qChxa3NotaBv7vXYTPRrcts9ZbnyNdTYZyoSD7KF8AmJEV0Z0rlmkKlW_uXt5nhuxyw$ . >> edu/pipermail/xmca-l/2014-August/002301.html RIP >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/a12c171d/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Jul 25 09:43:55 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 17:43:55 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Digital Blocks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No. I just wrote it for the project (2011, it seems). Haven't looked at it since. I'd forgotten that I did shapes too. The idea was to compare strategies of execution with a personality questionnaire. I tried running it and it looks like I have some kind of screen resolution issue, probably due to an upgrade. I didn't write it for cross-platform or general robustness. It was simply in python. Attached are some screenshots. >From recollection it took a while to collect and edit the food images. Best, Huw On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 at 16:15, Anthony Barra wrote: > Yes. Is it public? > > > On Saturday, July 25, 2020, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> Hi Anthony, >> >> I wrote one for part of BSc project at Birkbek. Rather than about >> block categories it was about grouping of food using "tile" images of the >> foods. >> >> Huw >> >> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 at 13:12, Anthony Barra >> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Does anyone know of a digital version of the Sahkarov blocks experiment, >>> perhaps even in game form? My searches have come up empty. >>> >>> Fot those with know-how, such a program doesn't seem too hard to code, >>> so I thought it might exist. Thanks for any tips. >>> >>> And for anyone who has yet to see this video demonstration of the >>> experiment, check it out; it's really great: "Paula Towsey on the Blocks >>> Experiment" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://vimeo.com/10689139__;!!Mih3wA!V5FgP9G249KU3RbbzFNvolx9o-X49CTXCzFywq6PVpwaFyAbtmm16wkY1UWVCqyJtRy3gA$ >>> >>> >>> Thank you again, >>> Anthony >>> >>> P.S. It sounds like Paula was a lovely woman: >>> https://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/2014-August/002301.html RIP >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/b4fecafd/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: food_selection_task_screen_7.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 519626 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/b4fecafd/attachment-0004.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: food_selection_feedback_screen_8.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 418652 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/b4fecafd/attachment-0005.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: shape_screen_3.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 310497 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/b4fecafd/attachment-0006.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: shape_screen_4_feedback.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 283737 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/b4fecafd/attachment-0007.jpg From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Sat Jul 25 14:56:58 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 17:56:58 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Digital Blocks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool, thank you for sharing this. Anthonny On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 12:46 PM Huw Lloyd wrote: > No. I just wrote it for the project (2011, it seems). Haven't looked at it > since. I'd forgotten that I did shapes too. The idea was to compare > strategies of execution with a personality questionnaire. > > I tried running it and it looks like I have some kind of screen resolution > issue, probably due to an upgrade. I didn't write it for cross-platform or > general robustness. It was simply in python. Attached are some screenshots. > From recollection it took a while to collect and edit the food images. > > Best, > Huw > > > On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 at 16:15, Anthony Barra > wrote: > >> Yes. Is it public? >> >> >> On Saturday, July 25, 2020, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> Hi Anthony, >>> >>> I wrote one for part of BSc project at Birkbek. Rather than about >>> block categories it was about grouping of food using "tile" images of the >>> foods. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 at 13:12, Anthony Barra >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Does anyone know of a digital version of the Sahkarov blocks >>>> experiment, perhaps even in game form? My searches have come up empty. >>>> >>>> Fot those with know-how, such a program doesn't seem too hard to code, >>>> so I thought it might exist. Thanks for any tips. >>>> >>>> And for anyone who has yet to see this video demonstration of the >>>> experiment, check it out; it's really great: "Paula Towsey on the Blocks >>>> Experiment" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://vimeo.com/10689139__;!!Mih3wA!XwfBW4GxRfBC0anHZco8IJNlBQZ1Z6dYqeQfzKJomjmtfIi5fq623rZGApSX1XFdTr5Vsg$ >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you again, >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> P.S. It sounds like Paula was a lovely woman: >>>> https://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/2014-August/002301.html RIP >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200725/c7da7550/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sun Jul 26 03:28:47 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:58:47 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness In-Reply-To: References: <643f81f9-3272-1330-f337-d549bb6d91ba@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hi all there, I hope I do not interfere with the subject matter of discussion by writing this message. Here, while reading the messages exchanging views/thoughts on the subject topic, somewhere during the discussion, I learned the participant asks for the definition of the word used in the view/message. If I recall, in the recent past, when we were discussing one issue, Annalisa also repeatedly asked for the definition of the words I used in my saying. As I did not want to lose the tract of my saying I did not respond to her request as asked for. Here, I agree with David and put my views as follows. If we just treat (symbolically) a word as a cell of a living body, then the language is the body of the word. The established relations between a word and the language might be just compared symbolically with the cell and the living body respectively. Now, if we agree that the path of development of the body as well as the cell has linked both with evolved relations and dependency on each other, likewise the word and language have also evolved through such a historical path. Even today, the comprehension (understanding) for any word might vary person to person. If not sure, there are fair chances of getting the word grasped by two different persons with a marginal difference as two persons are with different mindset. The grasping and the application of a word in communications might contract a difference in meaning at two places falling apart at some distance. The evolutionary history of language is no less complex than that of mankind and social development. The subjects of science and mathematics need some precise and stable level of meaning and some words are well defined there in the science/mathematical subjects. But, the validity and linking of the definition of such scientific words are limited up to the subjects only. It is because the topics of science and mathematics are not linked with human characteristics, emotions, sentiments, feelings and the mindset of the man. While our discussion and thought process is always on such topics/issues that have strong links with human characteristics, mindset and other biological parameters as above. A thinker/philosopher cannot set aside the above human values. This helplessness will never allow us to define any word/term used in our discussion, and, if it is defined, the thinkers/writers free thought flow will find suffocation by this definition during further discourse of his task. It is the writer's duty, honesty and self discipline to adhere with the logical meaning of the word used in his arguments/presentation uniformly. However, I understand the root source of the demand of Annalisa for the definition of any word used in the discussion, but my view in this regard is as follow? When there is a presentation of views by any thinker on any topic, it is obligatory to comply with a self discipline that the writer should not walk on the path with an intention to prove his point of view by any ways and means. The views might be erroneous or wrong, it is not an issue but any argument against the views should not be countered with the help of making a departure from the popular and wise logical meaning of the word used by him in the subject discussion. As a responsible thinker and writer one should use a word with its popular, wisdomful and logically supported meaning without definition and same should be adhered with positively and frankly even if critiques might compel to correct the view/thought, there should not be any hesitation. I believe that a thinker/writer free from this botheration will have fair chances to adhere with the spine of the subject matter (topic) while presenting his views. When the task of a writer becomes more tense by accurately defining words and then after keeping every nerve keeping alert to comply the given definitions in his/her writing views/thoughts, the thinker (writer) will surely feel as if he/she is facing *a court proceedings that has all the bearings of verdict on any contradiction if emerges with reference to the definition*. Here I say the author/thinker/writer will lose the direction of his concentration instead of resting on the prime line of the subject matter, he/she will sacrifice his/her all the intellectual potential at the wrong place. On the other hand, I believe it is the equal responsibility of a reader to adhere to the wisdomful and logical meaning of the word used in the writing by a thinker. If a reader pretends to read an article with a motive to learn the message or views that the writers intended to give in his/her article, but, the attitude of the reader is to catch him/her (thinker) by any means where he/she is missing/contradicting somewhere, then his/her unconscious motive surely tempts him/her to define everything accurately, instead of concentrating on ?What exactly the writer wants to present??. Here, I recall the words of Abraham Lincoln ?The true rule, in determining to embrace, or reject any thing, is not whether it has any evil in it; but whether it has more of evil, than of good. There are few things wholly evil, or wholly good.? Regards, Harshad Dave On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 2:49 AM David Kellogg wrote: > Andy's point about consciousness not having any "genera" which we might > "specify" is related to a point I always have when people ask for > definitions. What exactly is this definition for? One rather > Talmudic reason why people like to define terms at the beginning of a > discussion is so we can tell when folks are off topic ("clouds" and > "lithosphere" do not belong to the realm of consciousness, > Annalisa--naughty, naughty, naughly!) Another reason is so that we can > decide whether particular discourses involve metaphor, sleight-of-hand, > demagogery (the use of war rhetoric against a virus; conspiracy theories in > general assume that all human events of consequence are the result of > conscious ill will). But a third reason is so that we can decide where > something comes from and determine the precise moment it starts being what > it is (when does something that is not conscious acquire consciousness?) I > think you can see that the first reason for defining contradicts the third > one. That is, ruling this or that subject matter off topic will prevent you > from ever finding something that is both not consciousness and > consciousness. > > Halliday said that everything around us can be thought of as either matter > or as meaning, and he thought whether matter and meaning are the same > thing was an open question. For me, it is the question that Spinoza > answered. We are anthropo-centric and so we tend to think of meaning as > linguistic, as symbolism, as deliberate representations: making "this" > stand for "that". But of course for most of time meaning-making was not > deliberate in this way: red leaves in fall do not "stand for" winter, > although they certainly came to mean that for hibernating animals, and the > relationship between the physical changes that James and Lange (and Dewey > and Hegel) are talking about are probably related to emotions in the same > way. Meaning is organization; it is the defiance of entropy, and the very > fact that both matter and information have entropy and defy it shows that > Spinoza is right: everything around us can be thought of as either matter > or as meaning, or as increasing or decreasing in entropy. Consciousness is > simply the higest form of meaning-making, the most egregious and obvious > way of flouting the second law of thermodynamics. That is why clouds mean > rain, but in the long run--they don't; that is why the lithosphere means > time, but in the long run it won't. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcVwB5OyAA$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume > One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcUaLUGARw$ > > > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 1:06 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> For Marxism, Annalisa, "consciousness" is an all-embracing category. It >> does not refer to any specific "part" of the mind such as awareness, or in >> distinction from some *other* part of the mind such as the Unconscious. >> It is difficult to define because there is nothing more basic in terms of >> which "consciousness" could be defined other than abstractions which in >> turn rely on the concept of consciousness. So only a general sense can be >> given. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 24/07/2020 5:05 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hi Mike, >> >> Thank you for that! >> >> Of course then, my question is, what is the definition of "relationship"? >> >> Is there a relationship between the clouds and the lithosphere of the >> earth? Would that mean that the clouds and earth are conscious? >> >> Another question I might offer, is perception a requisite for >> consciousness? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 11:04 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Annalisa - >> >> I am sure there are more ways that LSV thought of consciousness, but a >> la marx, I believe its "human being's relationship to >> the environment"..... the rest of nature. Plenty of room for vibrations >> in that formulation. >> mike >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:00 AM Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >> Hello Xmcars, >> >> I'm not sure what the connection is but it seems there is one between >> consciousness and art-making with AI, and 3D printers. >> >> This article (2018) about consciousness is from The Conversation. Perhaps >> you might also like to read it: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/could-consciousness-all-come-down-to-the-way-things-vibrate-103070__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcWTgKzB2A$ >> >> >> and a more recent one from last year by the same author is here: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/how-can-you-tell-if-another-person-animal-or-thing-is-conscious-try-these-3-tests-115835__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcWYgrRxIQ$ >> >> >> I'm curious how Vygotsky defined consciousness? I'm not recollecting it >> at the moment. Maybe Andy could explain? >> >> On a different related topic I stumbled on these articles on AI created >> artwork: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/when-the-line-between-machine-and-artist-becomes-blurred-103149__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcXAUzbGbw$ >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/arts/design/ai-art-sold-christies.html__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcVoFHm4uQ$ >> >> >> What happens to labor as defined by Marx when the computer or the robot >> end up overriding human craft and labor? Is it a development in which value >> shifts? or is it the equation that determines value remains the same with >> different exponentially-numbered inputs that provides a different salient >> output? >> >> AI seems to be a kind of mirror-neuron wind up toy, if only because the >> inputs are required first in order to come up with simulacra outputs to >> then be considered art (by Christie's, no less). >> >> This made me consider 3-D printers as well. If someone can take a car >> part, scan it, and re-print the part for pennies, I'd guess that auto >> manufacturing is about to explode from this technological change. >> >> I'm wondering what Walter Benjamin would think about AI created >> portraiture (I'm thinking specifically about his wonderful essay on art >> here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcWhzZUI3Q$ >> >> ), but what about reproduction of the reproduction of car parts? I pause as >> I consider the future of manufacturing parts that used to require large >> iron forges, machinery, welding, engineering, etc. >> >> If there are printing communities that spring up to print parts (and >> there are) and they could conceivably create a car not much above the value >> of the steel materials, what happens to General Motors? Will it suffer the >> same demise as Kodak? >> >> I noticed that HP is coming out with industrial printers that seem to >> indicate the arrival of this sort of change: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers/products/multi-jet-fusion-5200.html__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcVgbB6kiA$ >> >> >> There have been online communities that show how to make one's own 3-D >> printer. So I wonder how this innovation will become absorbed into >> manufacturing? >> >> Remember the desktop publishing revolution? >> >> This quote by Paul Val?ry opens Benjamin's essay and reflects relevance >> to my questions: >> >> ?Our fine arts were developed, their types and uses were established, in >> times very different from the present, by men whose power of action upon >> things was insignificant in comparison with ours. But the amazing growth >> of our techniques, the adaptability and precision they have attained, >> the ideas and habits they are creating, make it a certainty that >> profound changes are impending in the ancient craft of the Beautiful. In >> all the arts there is a physical component which can no longer be >> considered or treated as it used to be, which cannot remain unaffected >> by our modern knowledge and power. For the last twenty years neither >> matter nor space nor time has been what it was from time immemorial. We >> must expect great innovations to transform the entire technique of the >> arts, thereby affecting artistic invention itself and perhaps even >> bringing about an amazing change in our very notion of art.?* >> >> >> Paul Val?ry, PI?CES SUR L?ART >> ?Le Conquete de l?ubiquit?,? Paris. >> >> >> I look forward to hearing the sparkling conversations these articles >> might inspire. >> >> Do tell. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> I[image: Angelus Novus] >> >> >> The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to >> Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 >> >> --------------------------------------------- >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcWjipMbuQ$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200726/fed7c70b/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jul 26 12:49:53 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 19:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> , Message-ID: Hello, My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of conatus. Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining the word conatus Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it is important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so it makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he uses the word to reflect his concept of it. It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. If we get the meaning of conatus wrong, then everything that sits upon its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states conatus is an innate property whereby "each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere in its being" (Ethics, part 3, prop. 6). This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the way that you seem to use the word, David. "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined conatus as the essence of human society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." This word hylozoistic is interesting as it pertains to a living essence in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in terms of a split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian that the word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in all matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. To me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" upon non-human entities. The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much about it. This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind is human, in the sense consciousness human = mind. Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for humans. If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why doesn't a rock have a mind as well? Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say rock is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in nature? It doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock on the earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like the bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are present or not. If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express themselves as we express our language vocal or written. We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the universe, then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our place in the universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger entity from which we spring. So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens conatus to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish conatus from desire and from affect: "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire is generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. So desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the Ethics) Let's think on that. appetite = desire however the equation might be better put this way: desire = appetite x awarenesshuman Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a sense it is turtles all the way down. appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human where conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human indeed anything = anything x awarenessnon-human because awareness/consciousness pervades all. What is beautiful about conatus as a concept is that it provides a basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had 17 elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of the number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. And everyone was happy. That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls the interpersonal meta-function). Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old Spinoza--free will. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEJPFOxQCw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEJnVF4q3g$ On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: David, But what of conatus? Isn't that something innate within all beings? Kind regards, Annalisa P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this list. ? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEJPFOxQCw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEJnVF4q3g$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion is the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Thanks, Andy--this is it! "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEJPFOxQCw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEJnVF4q3g$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of Hegel Werke. The German word for "page" is Seite, so you would say "S. 401" of the Enc, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the Phenomenology of Spirit. See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEKXt-WX6g$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEJ8nNwP8g$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEKrb0M-Mw$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEKp_i7mlg$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEJPFOxQCw$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Up8vArNHSwlA99KIwUhclzTq6Kk7rUDYfnT5-fEMh9oK54DehTFVr33pgdlphEJnVF4q3g$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200726/120ba441/attachment.html From ellampert@gmail.com Sun Jul 26 14:02:48 2020 From: ellampert@gmail.com (Elina Lampert-Shepel) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 17:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: request for help: syllabus for online cross-cultural human development seminar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Ageliki, I can share the course I developed with faculty for Childhood Program , but it is a graduate course on child development and it is a graduate school. All the courses are online. let me know if you are interested. On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:59 AM Ageliki Nicolopoulou wrote: > Dear xmcers, > > As the likelihood of having classes online again in the fall increases, I > would like to be proactive. > > I teach an upper division seminar titled "Human Development in > cross-cultural perspective" at my school here in the US. This is a small > upper division seminar with 16 students so I have conducted the course with > class discussion, class presentations and I have the students write two > papers and do one project that they present in class. > > I need to put this course online for the fall semester. While the > university has not made a final decision, the writing is on the wall that > we're going to be online to a large degree. I'm not very familiar with > online pedagogy and what works or not etc. > > So I would very much appreciate receiving a syllabus for an *online > course* similar to my own (Human Development from a cross-cultural/ > cultural perspective). > > Thanks in advance! > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > ________________ > Ageliki Nicolopoulou, Ph.D. > Professor of Psychology > Lehigh University, Bethlehem PA > Personal Webpage: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About__;!!Mih3wA!VY6dHtmHCM8k8aw4zkCm2hB6PMsaXWcm1WEpoSH3BufmB-gP1AB-K42QWuVtoAN-UvqsIQ$ > > Departmental Webpage: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://psychology.cas2.lehigh.edu/content/agn3__;!!Mih3wA!VY6dHtmHCM8k8aw4zkCm2hB6PMsaXWcm1WEpoSH3BufmB-gP1AB-K42QWuVtoAN6iuQtOg$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200726/b64ff612/attachment.html From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Sun Jul 26 14:42:10 2020 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 21:42:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> , , Message-ID: Going back even further than Spinoza and conatus is its origins in Aristotle's construction of energeia - entelecheia: between being-at-work [ergon] and being at-an-end [entelecheia] or working to maintain one's proper identity i.e. being a human being. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 26 July 2020 19:49 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? Hello, My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of conatus. Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining the word conatus Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it is important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so it makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he uses the word to reflect his concept of it. It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. If we get the meaning of conatus wrong, then everything that sits upon its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states conatus is an innate property whereby "each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere in its being" (Ethics, part 3, prop. 6). This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the way that you seem to use the word, David. "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined conatus as the essence of human society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." This word hylozoistic is interesting as it pertains to a living essence in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in terms of a split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian that the word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in all matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. To me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" upon non-human entities. The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much about it. This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind is human, in the sense consciousness human = mind. Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for humans. If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why doesn't a rock have a mind as well? Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say rock is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in nature? It doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock on the earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like the bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are present or not. If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express themselves as we express our language vocal or written. We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the universe, then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our place in the universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger entity from which we spring. So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens conatus to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish conatus from desire and from affect: "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire is generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. So desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the Ethics) Let's think on that. appetite = desire however the equation might be better put this way: desire = appetite x awarenesshuman Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a sense it is turtles all the way down. appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human where conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human indeed anything = anything x awarenessnon-human because awareness/consciousness pervades all. What is beautiful about conatus as a concept is that it provides a basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had 17 elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of the number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. And everyone was happy. That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls the interpersonal meta-function). Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old Spinoza--free will. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tSrZohGcg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tTBY6-flQ$ On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: David, But what of conatus? Isn't that something innate within all beings? Kind regards, Annalisa P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this list. ? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tSrZohGcg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tTBY6-flQ$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion is the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Thanks, Andy--this is it! "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tSrZohGcg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tTBY6-flQ$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of Hegel Werke. The German word for "page" is Seite, so you would say "S. 401" of the Enc, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the Phenomenology of Spirit. See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tTQw_IwdQ$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tTCuX872A$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tRwbEtELA$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tRYaO7btQ$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tSrZohGcg$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Q-EXNTA_bXSuvNkKDpIEnTZKMSTrnx0llRALPZ1JZ68pfpzOY4PfjDrsONxJ0tTBY6-flQ$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200726/7c511aa2/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jul 26 15:08:23 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:08:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness In-Reply-To: <643f81f9-3272-1330-f337-d549bb6d91ba@marxists.org> References: , <643f81f9-3272-1330-f337-d549bb6d91ba@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hello Andy, Mike, and VO's, But what is required for consciousness to express itself? Or does it require anything? If perception is not required, then consciousness must be a base of some sort, by which everything turns. If as Mike indicates, Marx's definition of consciousness is human beings' relationship to the environment, this sounds very similar to Spinoza's conatus. Because to relate to anything one must be consciously aware of it first, (but this puts us back to the brink of a fall, into the void on backs of turtles!) When I am hungry, I do not perceive the apple first and then decide I am hungry. The hunger is there first and then when I see the apple. I might become aware I am hungry and then desire to eat the apple. But I certainly do not see the apple, eat it, and then become aware that I was hungry. I don't reason like this about my hunger. It's there, or it's not there. Unlike David says, there does have to be a genera, seeking a genera results when we can't get any "farther down" basis that could be denied to be something else. Truth is that which cannot be denied. Conatus is a genera for the subsequent points Spinoza makes about pretty much everything. For him, it is a basic truth that cannot be denied. Even when we ask "what is this definition for?" part of the exercise when defining the usage of the word, is sort of like understanding the rules of a game before we play it. What are the rules to which we are agree when we define this word? Of course there is a context, there is always a context. We can reflect on using a definition in the wrong context and all agree, "no that doesn't work," while in another context *it does*. That awareness we bring to the definition helps in communicating the definition we intend to employ to develop the argument further along. Otherwise an argument falls apart, like a house on a soft foundation. Right? So this is why I can, with *my* definition of consciousness, bring in the relationship of clouds and the lithosphere, because I make the distinction that consciousness is not solely human. There is nothing naughty about it, because I am being exceedingly consistent in my logic. There is no slight of hand, no demogogery. Metaphors are totally allowable because they are simply maps to help show where we are. "This = that" but in employed very specific way, as for illustration, because metaphors are not global for use in any and all cases. Those are the rules of the game for using metaphors. The map is not the terrain, and we all know that. Certainly Marx didn't believe in ghosts just because he used the word "spectre." (or did he??) When David states: " ...ruling this or that subject matter off topic will prevent you from ever finding something that is both not consciousness and consciousness," really depends upon what you define consciousness to be! Though I do agree with you David that arbitrarily deciding this or that subject is off-topic prevents from identifying the non-conscious from the conscious, if I am not bending his words too much to find agreement in what he says. That is why it's totally fine to talk about clouds and lithospheres when discussing consciousness. Sorry to be difficult! If everything is conscious, then how an entity springs (as-if) to be, is just an expression of conatus in that form of consciousness, specific to that form. Consider the clay pot. We say "clay" as an adjective to the noun "pot," yet to map more precisely to reality we should say "potty clay", because the material of the pot *is* clay. Pot depends upon clay to exist. So no matter how we might debate of the linguistic flaw of saying "potty clay" (in light of our human language rules, specifically English), it doesn't change the reality of a manifest pot as a clay object in time and space. When you say meaning is organization, what is the meaning of the destruction of something, while still not being entropic? Is it possible? Fascists are huge fans of organization. Does it mean that Fascists are more conscious, or less entropic? Entropy is "a measure of the energy that is not available for work during a thermodynamic process." For a closed system, the system "evolves toward a state of maximum entropy." In an open system, there can be increase and decrease in entropy toward infinity, because where that energy isn't located in one part of the system, it is located in a different part or different system. It is a constant play of musical chairs where no one removes the chairs, but the music continues to go on and off and the same number of players go without chairs, even if the individuals sometimes have a chair, and sometimes don't. I am reflecting upon when you say consciousness (as the highest form of meaning and organization) "is the defiance of entropy, and the very fact that both matter and information have entropy and defy it shows that Spinoza is right: everything around us can be thought of as either matter or as meaning, or as increasing or decreasing in entropy." I am not remembering where Spinoza indicated that all that is here is meaning and matter (I presume combined) in a state of increasing or decreasing entropy. Would you mind letting me know where he said this? I am itching to know, so I would be most grateful for the location of that citation, not literally, but from where you gain this insight as being his? By definition, entropy in a closed system derives to maximum entropy. If consciousness is solely human, that would be a closed system. We would evolve to a state of maximum entropy, meaning I suppose that we each would have less ability to defy entropy than our grandparents, and even the Neanderthals. That doesn't make sense to me. I'm pretty sure Spinoza did not consider consciousness to be solely human; it's the only way he could conceive of conatus as he did. I do agree that consciousness defies entropy, because it is from where everything springs, including entropy. What I wonder is whether Vygotsky wrestled with Spinoza's version of conatus, in order to wear it away from Spinoza's worldviews on emotion and affection, to show them in play without a God as a central basis for conatus (as nature). Interestingly, this would actually transform conatus into a drive to clean clocks and maintain machines. It would be a world without consciousness, a universe of brain-eating zombies, perhaps. Spinoza did not refute free will per se, but that our will is determined from our natures. The choices provided are the choices that we are given. Who gives? An immanent God does, in the way the clay provides form to the pot. Americans in order to vote, must vote either for republicans or democrats. I might vote for one or the other, though I may actually want to vote libertarian or green. Is that a choice of free will? Is it *all* free will? Is it *all* determined? It is both (and neither). In this sense, the clouds DO mean rain, when on the surface of the earth, and the lithosphere CAN also mean time, since the crust of the earth can be said to last longer than human existence, and will likely exist long after we are gone. In both instances the context pertains whether one makes reference on the earth, from Mars, or some other form of transport in the realm of space, with or without a clock. As Einstein states, it is relative. (Hmmm.... Or.... is it a relationship?) Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 10:04 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness [EXTERNAL] For Marxism, Annalisa, "consciousness" is an all-embracing category. It does not refer to any specific "part" of the mind such as awareness, or in distinction from some other part of the mind such as the Unconscious. It is difficult to define because there is nothing more basic in terms of which "consciousness" could be defined other than abstractions which in turn rely on the concept of consciousness. So only a general sense can be given. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/07/2020 5:05 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hi Mike, Thank you for that! Of course then, my question is, what is the definition of "relationship"? Is there a relationship between the clouds and the lithosphere of the earth? Would that mean that the clouds and earth are conscious? Another question I might offer, is perception a requisite for consciousness? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 11:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness [EXTERNAL] Annalisa - I am sure there are more ways that LSV thought of consciousness, but a la marx, I believe its "human being's relationship to the environment"..... the rest of nature. Plenty of room for vibrations in that formulation. mike On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:00 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Xmcars, I'm not sure what the connection is but it seems there is one between consciousness and art-making with AI, and 3D printers. This article (2018) about consciousness is from The Conversation. Perhaps you might also like to read it: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/could-consciousness-all-come-down-to-the-way-things-vibrate-103070__;!!Mih3wA!SPWyQSldyDPAUXCLZMliJQQGsCg8A8IL-qNax4bfvItViK9k2OS3FlGpR-I9KPHTynTBuw$ and a more recent one from last year by the same author is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/how-can-you-tell-if-another-person-animal-or-thing-is-conscious-try-these-3-tests-115835__;!!Mih3wA!SPWyQSldyDPAUXCLZMliJQQGsCg8A8IL-qNax4bfvItViK9k2OS3FlGpR-I9KPHkaYJFaA$ I'm curious how Vygotsky defined consciousness? I'm not recollecting it at the moment. Maybe Andy could explain? On a different related topic I stumbled on these articles on AI created artwork: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/when-the-line-between-machine-and-artist-becomes-blurred-103149__;!!Mih3wA!SPWyQSldyDPAUXCLZMliJQQGsCg8A8IL-qNax4bfvItViK9k2OS3FlGpR-I9KPGC12q0Cw$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/arts/design/ai-art-sold-christies.html__;!!Mih3wA!SPWyQSldyDPAUXCLZMliJQQGsCg8A8IL-qNax4bfvItViK9k2OS3FlGpR-I9KPH6JdU-bw$ What happens to labor as defined by Marx when the computer or the robot end up overriding human craft and labor? Is it a development in which value shifts? or is it the equation that determines value remains the same with different exponentially-numbered inputs that provides a different salient output? AI seems to be a kind of mirror-neuron wind up toy, if only because the inputs are required first in order to come up with simulacra outputs to then be considered art (by Christie's, no less). This made me consider 3-D printers as well. If someone can take a car part, scan it, and re-print the part for pennies, I'd guess that auto manufacturing is about to explode from this technological change. I'm wondering what Walter Benjamin would think about AI created portraiture (I'm thinking specifically about his wonderful essay on art here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!SPWyQSldyDPAUXCLZMliJQQGsCg8A8IL-qNax4bfvItViK9k2OS3FlGpR-I9KPFLwCc6yw$ ), but what about reproduction of the reproduction of car parts? I pause as I consider the future of manufacturing parts that used to require large iron forges, machinery, welding, engineering, etc. If there are printing communities that spring up to print parts (and there are) and they could conceivably create a car not much above the value of the steel materials, what happens to General Motors? Will it suffer the same demise as Kodak? I noticed that HP is coming out with industrial printers that seem to indicate the arrival of this sort of change: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers/products/multi-jet-fusion-5200.html__;!!Mih3wA!SPWyQSldyDPAUXCLZMliJQQGsCg8A8IL-qNax4bfvItViK9k2OS3FlGpR-I9KPGf8rC1uA$ There have been online communities that show how to make one's own 3-D printer. So I wonder how this innovation will become absorbed into manufacturing? Remember the desktop publishing revolution? This quote by Paul Val?ry opens Benjamin's essay and reflects relevance to my questions: ?Our fine arts were developed, their types and uses were established, in times very different from the present, by men whose power of action upon things was insignificant in comparison with ours. But the amazing growth of our techniques, the adaptability and precision they have attained, the ideas and habits they are creating, make it a certainty that profound changes are impending in the ancient craft of the Beautiful. In all the arts there is a physical component which can no longer be considered or treated as it used to be, which cannot remain unaffected by our modern knowledge and power. For the last twenty years neither matter nor space nor time has been what it was from time immemorial. We must expect great innovations to transform the entire technique of the arts, thereby affecting artistic invention itself and perhaps even bringing about an amazing change in our very notion of art.?* Paul Val?ry, PI?CES SUR L?ART ?Le Conquete de l?ubiquit?,? Paris. I look forward to hearing the sparkling conversations these articles might inspire. Do tell. Kind regards, Annalisa -- I[Angelus Novus] The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 --------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SPWyQSldyDPAUXCLZMliJQQGsCg8A8IL-qNax4bfvItViK9k2OS3FlGpR-I9KPEzCm3SzQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200726/03c96e0e/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jul 26 15:13:34 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:13:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> , , , Message-ID: Hi David W! True what you say! The concept of conatus likely goes back further than the Romans. My point was that the definitions differ over time. That is why I insisted we understand what Spinoza intended when he used the word. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:42 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Going back even further than Spinoza and conatus is its origins in Aristotle's construction of energeia - entelecheia: between being-at-work [ergon] and being at-an-end [entelecheia] or working to maintain one's proper identity i.e. being a human being. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 26 July 2020 19:49 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? Hello, My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of conatus. Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining the word conatus Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it is important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so it makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he uses the word to reflect his concept of it. It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. If we get the meaning of conatus wrong, then everything that sits upon its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states conatus is an innate property whereby "each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere in its being" (Ethics, part 3, prop. 6). This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the way that you seem to use the word, David. "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined conatus as the essence of human society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." This word hylozoistic is interesting as it pertains to a living essence in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in terms of a split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian that the word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in all matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. To me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" upon non-human entities. The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much about it. This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind is human, in the sense consciousness human = mind. Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for humans. If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why doesn't a rock have a mind as well? Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say rock is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in nature? It doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock on the earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like the bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are present or not. If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express themselves as we express our language vocal or written. We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the universe, then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our place in the universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger entity from which we spring. So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens conatus to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish conatus from desire and from affect: "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire is generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. So desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the Ethics) Let's think on that. appetite = desire however the equation might be better put this way: desire = appetite x awarenesshuman Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a sense it is turtles all the way down. appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human where conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human indeed anything = anything x awarenessnon-human because awareness/consciousness pervades all. What is beautiful about conatus as a concept is that it provides a basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had 17 elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of the number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. And everyone was happy. That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls the interpersonal meta-function). Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old Spinoza--free will. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c5WTFIl5g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c5SyvdteA$ On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: David, But what of conatus? Isn't that something innate within all beings? Kind regards, Annalisa P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this list. ? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c5WTFIl5g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c5SyvdteA$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion is the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Thanks, Andy--this is it! "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c5WTFIl5g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c5SyvdteA$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of Hegel Werke. The German word for "page" is Seite, so you would say "S. 401" of the Enc, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the Phenomenology of Spirit. See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c4h2i5kOg$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c6BYfdUcQ$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c44hqQAsQ$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c7EIHsy9g$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c5WTFIl5g$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QhECn2nDl0kRIq3dMrYGs8Y_tmBiUf6AJslA12R1EMqZf3KTEgwPGiybPT9-9c5SyvdteA$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200726/477717bb/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jul 26 15:22:13 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:22:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: request for help: syllabus for online cross-cultural human development seminar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi I suggest that anyone with this question write to Kris Gutierrez at Berkeley. She and her team conducted an extremely interesting seminar for a very heterogeneous group of grad students and interested others, the core ideas of which also ought to work in smaller, groups as well. mike On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 2:04 PM Elina Lampert-Shepel wrote: > Hello Ageliki, > I can share the course I developed with faculty for Childhood Program , > but it is a graduate course on child development and it is a graduate > school. All the courses are online. let me know if you are interested. > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:59 AM Ageliki Nicolopoulou > wrote: > >> Dear xmcers, >> >> As the likelihood of having classes online again in the fall increases, I >> would like to be proactive. >> >> I teach an upper division seminar titled "Human Development in >> cross-cultural perspective" at my school here in the US. This is a small >> upper division seminar with 16 students so I have conducted the course with >> class discussion, class presentations and I have the students write two >> papers and do one project that they present in class. >> >> I need to put this course online for the fall semester. While the >> university has not made a final decision, the writing is on the wall that >> we're going to be online to a large degree. I'm not very familiar with >> online pedagogy and what works or not etc. >> >> So I would very much appreciate receiving a syllabus for an *online >> course* similar to my own (Human Development from a cross-cultural/ >> cultural perspective). >> >> Thanks in advance! >> Ageliki Nicolopoulou >> ________________ >> Ageliki Nicolopoulou, Ph.D. >> Professor of Psychology >> Lehigh University, Bethlehem PA >> Personal Webpage: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About__;!!Mih3wA!Q75a8eeprvwd8B1dhazCOPRtQuRl6Alq0zIW1Ru21nYtpve-xtXS5FsBK2C0ApirrYDAew$ >> >> Departmental Webpage: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://psychology.cas2.lehigh.edu/content/agn3__;!!Mih3wA!Q75a8eeprvwd8B1dhazCOPRtQuRl6Alq0zIW1Ru21nYtpve-xtXS5FsBK2C0ApitPoBlTg$ >> >> > -- I[image: Angelus Novus] The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 --------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q75a8eeprvwd8B1dhazCOPRtQuRl6Alq0zIW1Ru21nYtpve-xtXS5FsBK2C0ApglzIB1XQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200726/c31772c8/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jul 26 15:54:37 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:54:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness In-Reply-To: References: <643f81f9-3272-1330-f337-d549bb6d91ba@marxists.org> , Message-ID: Hello Harshad and others, I do not think I was alone in asking for your definitions. My role was merely emphasizing why it was important. I welcome others to push me to define my words. It engages me to think harder about my position. In using your biological metaphor I might say that a word is like a virus, and that it kills its host. This doesn't help me understand what you mean when you use *your* words. As they are your words, not mine. Just as you say, words vary in many ways they are comprehended, and that's why in a philosophical conversation (if that is what we are having), understanding the speaker's definition of a word is vital. It doesn't mean it is THE definition of the word, but the way the speaker chooses to use the word. If I say word "A" and it can equally mean "a", "b" or "c" where "a?b?c", then for me to be understood, it is of value for me to say "when I say 'A,' I mean 'A=b' and nothing else." You could on the other hand say "A" and mean "A=c" and David could use the word "A" and he could mean "A=a". There is no right or wrong way to use the word "A", but it is polite to be clear when someone asks, what do you mean when you say "A"? Otherwise it just seems you do not wish to be transparent nor provide clarity, which doesn't lend to an equitable discussion. For example, when you say "mankind" do you include women? It might be more inclusive on this listserv to say "humankind." When someone uses the term "mankind" it sort of says where the person is coming from, which does not include women as part of the discussion. This may antagonize others, even men who do consciously wish to be inclusive of women or non-binary gendered folks, who are people present on this list. You say also say: "As a responsible thinker and writer one should use a word with its popular, wisdomful and logically supported meaning without definition and same should be adhered with positively and frankly even if critiques might compel to correct the view/thought, there should not be any hesitation." I beg to differ, a responsible thinker and writer should be open and transparent about the use of her words, and to effect welcome inquiry as to how the words are used. Much like were I to make a cake and someone were to ask me, "what is in your recipe? I would like to know." If I ignore the inquiry, it makes me look rude. Even to say "I can't tell you because it is a family secret" that would be far more polite than to meet the question with silence, to say nothing at all. While an academic listserv is not a court of law, there are academics present who I sometimes feel possess basic natures of the skeptical kind, but I do not feel that in anyway they are unwelcome, nor is their skepticism intended to be unfriendly, though sometimes it might seem that way. That's just the way academics ARE MADE. It is how they express their conatus! ?? There are times we don't like to be challenged, but it is for our self benefit to reflect upon our own beliefs which may not be sound. I offer that that is the most responsible posture to hold on this list. You may not understand that the basis of your worldviews might have put off a few people, even angered them, it appears. But it is important not to cancel a person out as well. To encourage discussion, despite disagreement. I invite you to look into the history of this listserv, so that you might understand better how it came to be and the wide scope of what people intend to do here. See: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratory_of_Comparative_Human_Cognition__;!!Mih3wA!S3rBuP1sXaDRJLHsfxp6c10iI1bEHS8HZZruz6LYZxo6ttg-oZ3te0Yd7HSgacuMrCJlhw$ I say this to help, not hinder. I do not position myself as authority on or about this list, but many have been intimidated when posting, and they shouldn't be. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Harshad Dave Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 4:28 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness [EXTERNAL] Hi all there, I hope I do not interfere with the subject matter of discussion by writing this message. Here, while reading the messages exchanging views/thoughts on the subject topic, somewhere during the discussion, I learned the participant asks for the definition of the word used in the view/message. If I recall, in the recent past, when we were discussing one issue, Annalisa also repeatedly asked for the definition of the words I used in my saying. As I did not want to lose the tract of my saying I did not respond to her request as asked for. Here, I agree with David and put my views as follows. If we just treat (symbolically) a word as a cell of a living body, then the language is the body of the word. The established relations between a word and the language might be just compared symbolically with the cell and the living body respectively. Now, if we agree that the path of development of the body as well as the cell has linked both with evolved relations and dependency on each other, likewise the word and language have also evolved through such a historical path. Even today, the comprehension (understanding) for any word might vary person to person. If not sure, there are fair chances of getting the word grasped by two different persons with a marginal difference as two persons are with different mindset. The grasping and the application of a word in communications might contract a difference in meaning at two places falling apart at some distance. The evolutionary history of language is no less complex than that of mankind and social development. The subjects of science and mathematics need some precise and stable level of meaning and some words are well defined there in the science/mathematical subjects. But, the validity and linking of the definition of such scientific words are limited up to the subjects only. It is because the topics of science and mathematics are not linked with human characteristics, emotions, sentiments, feelings and the mindset of the man. While our discussion and thought process is always on such topics/issues that have strong links with human characteristics, mindset and other biological parameters as above. A thinker/philosopher cannot set aside the above human values. This helplessness will never allow us to define any word/term used in our discussion, and, if it is defined, the thinkers/writers free thought flow will find suffocation by this definition during further discourse of his task. It is the writer's duty, honesty and self discipline to adhere with the logical meaning of the word used in his arguments/presentation uniformly. However, I understand the root source of the demand of Annalisa for the definition of any word used in the discussion, but my view in this regard is as follow? When there is a presentation of views by any thinker on any topic, it is obligatory to comply with a self discipline that the writer should not walk on the path with an intention to prove his point of view by any ways and means. The views might be erroneous or wrong, it is not an issue but any argument against the views should not be countered with the help of making a departure from the popular and wise logical meaning of the word used by him in the subject discussion. As a responsible thinker and writer one should use a word with its popular, wisdomful and logically supported meaning without definition and same should be adhered with positively and frankly even if critiques might compel to correct the view/thought, there should not be any hesitation. I believe that a thinker/writer free from this botheration will have fair chances to adhere with the spine of the subject matter (topic) while presenting his views. When the task of a writer becomes more tense by accurately defining words and then after keeping every nerve keeping alert to comply the given definitions in his/her writing views/thoughts, the thinker (writer) will surely feel as if he/she is facing a court proceedings that has all the bearings of verdict on any contradiction if emerges with reference to the definition. Here I say the author/thinker/writer will lose the direction of his concentration instead of resting on the prime line of the subject matter, he/she will sacrifice his/her all the intellectual potential at the wrong place. On the other hand, I believe it is the equal responsibility of a reader to adhere to the wisdomful and logical meaning of the word used in the writing by a thinker. If a reader pretends to read an article with a motive to learn the message or views that the writers intended to give in his/her article, but, the attitude of the reader is to catch him/her (thinker) by any means where he/she is missing/contradicting somewhere, then his/her unconscious motive surely tempts him/her to define everything accurately, instead of concentrating on ?What exactly the writer wants to present??. Here, I recall the words of Abraham Lincoln ?The true rule, in determining to embrace, or reject any thing, is not whether it has any evil in it; but whether it has more of evil, than of good. There are few things wholly evil, or wholly good.? Regards, Harshad Dave On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 2:49 AM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy's point about consciousness not having any "genera" which we might "specify" is related to a point I always have when people ask for definitions. What exactly is this definition for? One rather Talmudic reason why people like to define terms at the beginning of a discussion is so we can tell when folks are off topic ("clouds" and "lithosphere" do not belong to the realm of consciousness, Annalisa--naughty, naughty, naughly!) Another reason is so that we can decide whether particular discourses involve metaphor, sleight-of-hand, demagogery (the use of war rhetoric against a virus; conspiracy theories in general assume that all human events of consequence are the result of conscious ill will). But a third reason is so that we can decide where something comes from and determine the precise moment it starts being what it is (when does something that is not conscious acquire consciousness?) I think you can see that the first reason for defining contradicts the third one. That is, ruling this or that subject matter off topic will prevent you from ever finding something that is both not consciousness and consciousness. Halliday said that everything around us can be thought of as either matter or as meaning, and he thought whether matter and meaning are the same thing was an open question. For me, it is the question that Spinoza answered. We are anthropo-centric and so we tend to think of meaning as linguistic, as symbolism, as deliberate representations: making "this" stand for "that". But of course for most of time meaning-making was not deliberate in this way: red leaves in fall do not "stand for" winter, although they certainly came to mean that for hibernating animals, and the relationship between the physical changes that James and Lange (and Dewey and Hegel) are talking about are probably related to emotions in the same way. Meaning is organization; it is the defiance of entropy, and the very fact that both matter and information have entropy and defy it shows that Spinoza is right: everything around us can be thought of as either matter or as meaning, or as increasing or decreasing in entropy. Consciousness is simply the higest form of meaning-making, the most egregious and obvious way of flouting the second law of thermodynamics. That is why clouds mean rain, but in the long run--they don't; that is why the lithosphere means time, but in the long run it won't. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!S3rBuP1sXaDRJLHsfxp6c10iI1bEHS8HZZruz6LYZxo6ttg-oZ3te0Yd7HSgacvMBJe-KQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!S3rBuP1sXaDRJLHsfxp6c10iI1bEHS8HZZruz6LYZxo6ttg-oZ3te0Yd7HSgacuBDgt8MA$ On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 1:06 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: For Marxism, Annalisa, "consciousness" is an all-embracing category. It does not refer to any specific "part" of the mind such as awareness, or in distinction from some other part of the mind such as the Unconscious. It is difficult to define because there is nothing more basic in terms of which "consciousness" could be defined other than abstractions which in turn rely on the concept of consciousness. So only a general sense can be given. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/07/2020 5:05 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hi Mike, Thank you for that! Of course then, my question is, what is the definition of "relationship"? Is there a relationship between the clouds and the lithosphere of the earth? Would that mean that the clouds and earth are conscious? Another question I might offer, is perception a requisite for consciousness? Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 11:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness [EXTERNAL] Annalisa - I am sure there are more ways that LSV thought of consciousness, but a la marx, I believe its "human being's relationship to the environment"..... the rest of nature. Plenty of room for vibrations in that formulation. mike On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:00 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hello Xmcars, I'm not sure what the connection is but it seems there is one between consciousness and art-making with AI, and 3D printers. This article (2018) about consciousness is from The Conversation. Perhaps you might also like to read it: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/could-consciousness-all-come-down-to-the-way-things-vibrate-103070__;!!Mih3wA!S3rBuP1sXaDRJLHsfxp6c10iI1bEHS8HZZruz6LYZxo6ttg-oZ3te0Yd7HSgacvnVW12vA$ and a more recent one from last year by the same author is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/how-can-you-tell-if-another-person-animal-or-thing-is-conscious-try-these-3-tests-115835__;!!Mih3wA!S3rBuP1sXaDRJLHsfxp6c10iI1bEHS8HZZruz6LYZxo6ttg-oZ3te0Yd7HSgactNWOhu1A$ I'm curious how Vygotsky defined consciousness? I'm not recollecting it at the moment. Maybe Andy could explain? On a different related topic I stumbled on these articles on AI created artwork: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/when-the-line-between-machine-and-artist-becomes-blurred-103149__;!!Mih3wA!S3rBuP1sXaDRJLHsfxp6c10iI1bEHS8HZZruz6LYZxo6ttg-oZ3te0Yd7HSgacvU33NhjQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/arts/design/ai-art-sold-christies.html__;!!Mih3wA!S3rBuP1sXaDRJLHsfxp6c10iI1bEHS8HZZruz6LYZxo6ttg-oZ3te0Yd7HSgact8h38T2A$ What happens to labor as defined by Marx when the computer or the robot end up overriding human craft and labor? Is it a development in which value shifts? or is it the equation that determines value remains the same with different exponentially-numbered inputs that provides a different salient output? AI seems to be a kind of mirror-neuron wind up toy, if only because the inputs are required first in order to come up with simulacra outputs to then be considered art (by Christie's, no less). This made me consider 3-D printers as well. If someone can take a car part, scan it, and re-print the part for pennies, I'd guess that auto manufacturing is about to explode from this technological change. I'm wondering what Walter Benjamin would think about AI created portraiture (I'm thinking specifically about his wonderful essay on art here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!S3rBuP1sXaDRJLHsfxp6c10iI1bEHS8HZZruz6LYZxo6ttg-oZ3te0Yd7HSgacu_kG67jg$ ), but what about reproduction of the reproduction of car parts? I pause as I consider the future of manufacturing parts that used to require large iron forges, machinery, welding, engineering, etc. If there are printing communities that spring up to print parts (and there are) and they could conceivably create a car not much above the value of the steel materials, what happens to General Motors? Will it suffer the same demise as Kodak? I noticed that HP is coming out with industrial printers that seem to indicate the arrival of this sort of change: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers/products/multi-jet-fusion-5200.html__;!!Mih3wA!S3rBuP1sXaDRJLHsfxp6c10iI1bEHS8HZZruz6LYZxo6ttg-oZ3te0Yd7HSgacsATrb6Gg$ There have been online communities that show how to make one's own 3-D printer. So I wonder how this innovation will become absorbed into manufacturing? Remember the desktop publishing revolution? This quote by Paul Val?ry opens Benjamin's essay and reflects relevance to my questions: ?Our fine arts were developed, their types and uses were established, in times very different from the present, by men whose power of action upon things was insignificant in comparison with ours. But the amazing growth of our techniques, the adaptability and precision they have attained, the ideas and habits they are creating, make it a certainty that profound changes are impending in the ancient craft of the Beautiful. In all the arts there is a physical component which can no longer be considered or treated as it used to be, which cannot remain unaffected by our modern knowledge and power. For the last twenty years neither matter nor space nor time has been what it was from time immemorial. We must expect great innovations to transform the entire technique of the arts, thereby affecting artistic invention itself and perhaps even bringing about an amazing change in our very notion of art.?* Paul Val?ry, PI?CES SUR L?ART ?Le Conquete de l?ubiquit?,? Paris. I look forward to hearing the sparkling conversations these articles might inspire. Do tell. Kind regards, Annalisa -- I[Angelus Novus] The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 --------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!S3rBuP1sXaDRJLHsfxp6c10iI1bEHS8HZZruz6LYZxo6ttg-oZ3te0Yd7HSgacuwdK_nHA$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200726/9b4c7db0/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Sun Jul 26 23:35:21 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:35:21 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> Message-ID: Thank you, all in this thread. Sometimes XMCA hits right when needed! If you want to know the mind of a person raising a person, study the object-oriented activity of raising people. I think that if you use a playworld to help shape and gain access to observing this activity, you can actually see that emotion, the state of the whole adult, and also visa-versa, meaning the state of the whole child (in some way, although it's not parallel), so a certain presence with the other person or embodiment/communication of emotion, makes possible the one becoming a bridge (portal) for the other and visa-versa through time, and it is this that is both the mind of of the adult and the development of/developing of the mind of the child -- proleptic development. This thread just fit right into what I was thinking about Paley's writing on emotions -- I know that what I just wrote is still short, raw and hard to decipher -- I just wanted to share. Beth On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 6:15 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi David W! > > True what you say! > > The concept of *conatus* likely goes back further than the Romans. My > point was that the definitions differ over time. That is why I insisted we > understand what Spinoza intended when he used the word. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. > *Sent:* Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:42 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Going back even further than Spinoza and conatus is its origins in > Aristotle's construction of energeia - entelecheia: between being-at-work > [ergon] and being at-an-end [entelecheia] or working to maintain one's > proper identity i.e. being a human being. > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* 26 July 2020 19:49 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > Hello, > > My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on > this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. > Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. > > Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. > However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has > the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of *conatus*. > > *Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining the > word conatus* > > Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it is > important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be > polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is > to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but > also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon > which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. > > I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back > with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." > > However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so it > makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he > uses the word to reflect his concept of it. > > It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the > basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying > it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. > > If we get the meaning of *conatus* wrong, then everything that sits upon > its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what > contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. > > According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states *conatus* is an innate property > whereby "*each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere > in its being*" (*Ethics*, part 3, prop. 6). > > This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of > existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist > unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation > depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are > discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social > self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was > excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. > > Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the way > that you seem to use the word, David. > > "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined *conatus* as the essence of human > society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the > generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." > > > This word *hylozoistic* is interesting as it pertains to a living essence > in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in terms of a > split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian that the > word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in all > matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. To > me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" upon > non-human entities. > > The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying > there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind > in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all > matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were > deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the > non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much > about it. > > This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind is > human, in the sense > > consciousness human = mind. > > > Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is > not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other > different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. > > Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest > with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it > is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and > heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the > lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for > humans. > > If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, > then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are > made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, > etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why > doesn't a rock have a mind as well? > > Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say rock > is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in nature? It > doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock on the > earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like the > bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are > present or not. > > If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line > between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say > language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and > reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, > it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the > word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial > intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't > mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express > themselves as we express our language vocal or written. > > We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin > over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make > ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. > > Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the universe, > then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our place in the > universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger entity from > which we spring. > > So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a > machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from > within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens > *conatus* to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish conatus > from desire and from affect: > > "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire is > generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. So > desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the > appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the *Ethics*) > > Let's think on that. > > appetite = desire > > > however the equation might be better put this way: > > desire = appetite x awarenesshuman > > > Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from > non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a > sense it is turtles all the way down. > > appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human > > > where > > conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human > > > indeed > > anything = anything x awarenessnon-human > > > because awareness/consciousness pervades all. > > What is beautiful about *conatus* as a concept is that it provides a > basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. > > It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had 17 > elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of the > number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest > would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide > from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to > be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the > number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided > 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and > the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, > which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. > > And everyone was happy. > > That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, > it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in > reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept > them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. > > Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, > Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so > because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls > the interpersonal meta-function). > > Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an > explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight > reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the > vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore > examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is > not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The > Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. > > Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness > that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, > sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The > conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange > goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the > hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, > and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old > Spinoza--free will. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultdL4p_dRQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultd4XGUePw$ > > > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > David, > > But what of *conatus*? Isn't that something innate within all beings? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this > list. ? > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is > what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles > respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at > any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. > > I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is > crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is > "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in > physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a > change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. > (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's > waving analogy....) > > Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or > less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the > environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the > potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make > this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include > the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT > issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, > though....) > : > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultdL4p_dRQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultd4XGUePw$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts > of the whole organism. The emotion *is* the state of a whole organism, in > particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to > someone. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Thanks, Andy--this is it! > > "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts > subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a > physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they > get quite another interpretation." > > The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the > mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps > that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system > that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. > > (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, > when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart > that was broken but his stomach....) > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultdL4p_dRQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultd4XGUePw$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 > as well. > > One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to > cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The > German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the *Enc*, > This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, > on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, > though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology of Spirit*. > > See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English > translation is here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultdJGeEZYQ$ > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself > composed of three parts: > > - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology > - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and > - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. > > The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or > editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into > English, > > I would start with the 1930 version" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultdcLDickQ$ > > - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. > > The 1817 version has > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultfbIjFObQ$ > > - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective > Spirit. > The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the > basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of > thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will > photocopy it and send it on. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those > cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). > It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with > questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. > > We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey > mean when he says: > > "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation > of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? > > Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number > refer to a page number or a section or what? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultf9U-o-FQ$ > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultdL4p_dRQ$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultd4XGUePw$ > > > > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!W_9CO7P482asAhgvThGe5z2ZAGH-vtBVme7iACfT4CkbofAVKeYpXeW66KJultemO-_g_Q$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200727/35f4a250/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Jul 27 09:48:16 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:48:16 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> Message-ID: Nice, Beth! Proleptic development at any age, in any relation? A light touch. I have to constantly remember to have a sense of humor, a playful approach. I can get sooooo heavy. There has to be some laughter. Lesson plans, agendas can weigh things down. Sweet spot intentions have the most potential for development. I thought your post hit a sweet spot. Henry > On Jul 27, 2020, at 12:35 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > Thank you, all in this thread. > > Sometimes XMCA hits right when needed! > > If you want to know the mind of a person raising a person, study the object-oriented activity of raising people. I think that if you use a playworld to help shape and gain access to observing this activity, you can actually see that emotion, the state of the whole adult, and also visa-versa, meaning the state of the whole child (in some way, although it's not parallel), so a certain presence with the other person or embodiment/communication of emotion, makes possible the one becoming a bridge (portal) for the other and visa-versa through time, and it is this that is both the mind of of the adult and the development of/developing of the mind of the child -- proleptic development. > > This thread just fit right into what I was thinking about Paley's writing on emotions -- I know that what I just wrote is still short, raw and hard to decipher -- I just wanted to share. > > Beth > > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 6:15 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > Hi David W! > > True what you say! > > The concept of conatus likely goes back further than the Romans. My point was that the definitions differ over time. That is why I insisted we understand what Spinoza intended when he used the word. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. > > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:42 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > [EXTERNAL] > > Going back even further than Spinoza and conatus is its origins in Aristotle's construction of energeia - entelecheia: between being-at-work [ergon] and being at-an-end [entelecheia] or working to maintain one's proper identity i.e. being a human being. > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > > Sent: 26 July 2020 19:49 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > Hello, > > My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. > > Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of conatus. > > Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining the word conatus > > Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it is important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. > > I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." > > However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so it makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he uses the word to reflect his concept of it. > > It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. > > If we get the meaning of conatus wrong, then everything that sits upon its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. > > According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states conatus is an innate property whereby "each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere in its being" (Ethics <>, part 3, prop. 6). > > This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. > > Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the way that you seem to use the word, David. > > "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined conatus as the essence of human society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." > > This word hylozoistic is interesting as it pertains to a living essence in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in terms of a split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian that the word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in all matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. To me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" upon non-human entities. > > The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much about it. > > This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind is human, in the sense > > consciousness human = mind. > > Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. > > Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for humans. > > If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why doesn't a rock have a mind as well? > > Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say rock is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in nature? It doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock on the earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like the bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are present or not. > > If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express themselves as we express our language vocal or written. > > We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. > > Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the universe, then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our place in the universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger entity from which we spring. > > So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens conatus to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish conatus from desire and from affect: > > "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire is generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. So desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the Ethics) > > Let's think on that. > > appetite = desire > > however the equation might be better put this way: > > desire = appetite x awarenesshuman > > Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a sense it is turtles all the way down. > > appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human > > where > > conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human > > indeed > > anything = anything x awarenessnon-human > > because awareness/consciousness pervades all. > > What is beautiful about conatus as a concept is that it provides a basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. > > It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had 17 elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of the number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. > > And everyone was happy. > > That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. > > Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > [EXTERNAL] > > Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls the interpersonal meta-function). > > Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. > > Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old Spinoza--free will. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUbEWt6qcQ$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUYr-di1PQ$ > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > David, > > But what of conatus? Isn't that something innate within all beings? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this list. ? > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > [EXTERNAL] > > Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. > > I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) > > Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) > : > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUbEWt6qcQ$ > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUYr-di1PQ$ > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: > No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion is the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. > > andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >> >> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." >> >> The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. >> >> (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUbEWt6qcQ$ >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUYr-di1PQ$ >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: >> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. >> >> One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of Hegel Werke. The German word for "page" is Seite, so you would say "S. 401" of the Enc, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the Phenomenology of Spirit. >> >> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUbQe2s4dg$ >> Andy >> >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: >>> >>> Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology >>> Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and >>> Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. >>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, >>> >>> I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUY8w3WSXg$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. >>> >>> The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUYzJ5Gpcg$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. >>> >>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. >>> Andy >>> >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. >>>> >>>> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: >>>> >>>> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >>>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUYDZe5LQg$ >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUbEWt6qcQ$ >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUYr-di1PQ$ >>>> > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SbQGHmTnzbpmC0Rzg00HiKozocKi31SzmUqSFfcWYpTmkb17DrERoseQTxY4pUZE2Kf8gA$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200727/51bb7a23/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jul 27 10:08:02 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 17:08:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> , Message-ID: I love the word "prolepsis" ! Those Greeks have a word for everything! Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 10:48 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Nice, Beth! Proleptic development at any age, in any relation? A light touch. I have to constantly remember to have a sense of humor, a playful approach. I can get sooooo heavy. There has to be some laughter. Lesson plans, agendas can weigh things down. Sweet spot intentions have the most potential for development. I thought your post hit a sweet spot. Henry On Jul 27, 2020, at 12:35 AM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: Thank you, all in this thread. Sometimes XMCA hits right when needed! If you want to know the mind of a person raising a person, study the object-oriented activity of raising people. I think that if you use a playworld to help shape and gain access to observing this activity, you can actually see that emotion, the state of the whole adult, and also visa-versa, meaning the state of the whole child (in some way, although it's not parallel), so a certain presence with the other person or embodiment/communication of emotion, makes possible the one becoming a bridge (portal) for the other and visa-versa through time, and it is this that is both the mind of of the adult and the development of/developing of the mind of the child -- proleptic development. This thread just fit right into what I was thinking about Paley's writing on emotions -- I know that what I just wrote is still short, raw and hard to decipher -- I just wanted to share. Beth On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 6:15 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi David W! True what you say! The concept of conatus likely goes back further than the Romans. My point was that the definitions differ over time. That is why I insisted we understand what Spinoza intended when he used the word. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:42 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Going back even further than Spinoza and conatus is its origins in Aristotle's construction of energeia - entelecheia: between being-at-work [ergon] and being at-an-end [entelecheia] or working to maintain one's proper identity i.e. being a human being. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: 26 July 2020 19:49 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? Hello, My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of conatus. Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining the word conatus Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it is important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so it makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he uses the word to reflect his concept of it. It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. If we get the meaning of conatus wrong, then everything that sits upon its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states conatus is an innate property whereby "each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere in its being" (Ethics, part 3, prop. 6). This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the way that you seem to use the word, David. "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined conatus as the essence of human society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." This word hylozoistic is interesting as it pertains to a living essence in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in terms of a split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian that the word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in all matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. To me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" upon non-human entities. The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much about it. This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind is human, in the sense consciousness human = mind. Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for humans. If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why doesn't a rock have a mind as well? Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say rock is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in nature? It doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock on the earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like the bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are present or not. If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express themselves as we express our language vocal or written. We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the universe, then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our place in the universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger entity from which we spring. So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens conatus to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish conatus from desire and from affect: "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire is generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. So desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the Ethics) Let's think on that. appetite = desire however the equation might be better put this way: desire = appetite x awarenesshuman Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a sense it is turtles all the way down. appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human where conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human indeed anything = anything x awarenessnon-human because awareness/consciousness pervades all. What is beautiful about conatus as a concept is that it provides a basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had 17 elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of the number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. And everyone was happy. That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls the interpersonal meta-function). Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old Spinoza--free will. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscDJTULALA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscAbALQhkg$ On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: David, But what of conatus? Isn't that something innate within all beings? Kind regards, Annalisa P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this list. ? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscDJTULALA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscAbALQhkg$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion is the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Thanks, Andy--this is it! "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscDJTULALA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscAbALQhkg$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of Hegel Werke. The German word for "page" is Seite, so you would say "S. 401" of the Enc, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the Phenomenology of Spirit. See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscCBm_VJfg$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscBeJGKYLA$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscAvimMWOQ$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscAxLnc1NQ$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscDJTULALA$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscAbALQhkg$ -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!SNWy5mZSGxSryGnsjzo-MYyMIKEu3qJ9SH-JyWrX4OkZ15zzBdFthBsmDzRqscAwf5g-JQ$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200727/0803b1a1/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Mon Jul 27 10:07:15 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:07:15 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> Message-ID: I am so glad to hear. This is my goal for everything during this illness of the world. Like flowers in a sick room, the main goal is to get to the other side of this ordeal, and the heavy thoughts are precious and often exceptionally clear at this time but the thing is to join them to beautiful things when we can. I'm working from a favorite essay, that I'm referring to alot lately -- Virginia Woolf's On Being Ill -- her mom also wrote brilliantly on the topic, my favorite part is about crumbs on the sheets : ) . Beth On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 12:51 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Nice, Beth! Proleptic development at any age, in any relation? A light > touch. I have to constantly remember to have a sense of humor, a playful > approach. I can get sooooo heavy. There has to be some laughter. Lesson > plans, agendas can weigh things down. Sweet spot intentions have the most > potential for development. I thought your post hit a sweet spot. > Henry > > > On Jul 27, 2020, at 12:35 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > Thank you, all in this thread. > > Sometimes XMCA hits right when needed! > > If you want to know the mind of a person raising a person, study the > object-oriented activity of raising people. I think that if you use a > playworld to help shape and gain access to observing this activity, you can > actually see that emotion, the state of the whole adult, and also > visa-versa, meaning the state of the whole child (in some way, although > it's not parallel), so a certain presence with the other person or > embodiment/communication of emotion, makes possible the one becoming a > bridge (portal) for the other and visa-versa through time, and it is this > that is both the mind of of the adult and the development of/developing of > the mind of the child -- proleptic development. > > This thread just fit right into what I was thinking about Paley's writing > on emotions -- I know that what I just wrote is still short, raw and hard > to decipher -- I just wanted to share. > > Beth > > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 6:15 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hi David W! >> >> True what you say! >> >> The concept of *conatus* likely goes back further than the Romans. My >> point was that the definitions differ over time. That is why I insisted we >> understand what Spinoza intended when he used the word. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. >> *Sent:* Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:42 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Going back even further than Spinoza and conatus is its origins in >> Aristotle's construction of energeia - entelecheia: between being-at-work >> [ergon] and being at-an-end [entelecheia] or working to maintain one's >> proper identity i.e. being a human being. >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar >> *Sent:* 26 July 2020 19:49 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> Hello, >> >> My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on >> this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. >> Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. >> >> Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. >> However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has >> the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of *conatus*. >> >> *Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining the >> word conatus* >> >> Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it >> is important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be >> polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is >> to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but >> also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon >> which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. >> >> I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back >> with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." >> >> However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so it >> makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he >> uses the word to reflect his concept of it. >> >> It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the >> basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying >> it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. >> >> If we get the meaning of *conatus* wrong, then everything that sits upon >> its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what >> contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. >> >> According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states *conatus* is an innate property >> whereby "*each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere >> in its being*" (*Ethics*, part 3, prop. 6). >> >> This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of >> existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist >> unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation >> depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are >> discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social >> self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was >> excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. >> >> Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the >> way that you seem to use the word, David. >> >> "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined *conatus* as the essence of human >> society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the >> generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." >> >> >> This word *hylozoistic* is interesting as it pertains to a living >> essence in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in >> terms of a split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian >> that the word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in >> all matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. >> To me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" >> upon non-human entities. >> >> The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying >> there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind >> in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all >> matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were >> deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the >> non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much >> about it. >> >> This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind >> is human, in the sense >> >> consciousness human = mind. >> >> >> Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is >> not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other >> different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. >> >> Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest >> with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it >> is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and >> heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the >> lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for >> humans. >> >> If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, >> then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are >> made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, >> etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why >> doesn't a rock have a mind as well? >> >> Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say rock >> is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in nature? It >> doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock on the >> earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like the >> bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are >> present or not. >> >> If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line >> between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say >> language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and >> reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, >> it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the >> word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial >> intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't >> mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express >> themselves as we express our language vocal or written. >> >> We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin >> over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make >> ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. >> >> Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the >> universe, then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our >> place in the universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger >> entity from which we spring. >> >> So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a >> machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from >> within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens >> *conatus* to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish >> conatus from desire and from affect: >> >> "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire >> is generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. >> So desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the >> appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the *Ethics*) >> >> Let's think on that. >> >> appetite = desire >> >> >> however the equation might be better put this way: >> >> desire = appetite x awarenesshuman >> >> >> Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from >> non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a >> sense it is turtles all the way down. >> >> appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human >> >> >> where >> >> conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human >> >> >> indeed >> >> anything = anything x awarenessnon-human >> >> >> because awareness/consciousness pervades all. >> >> What is beautiful about *conatus* as a concept is that it provides a >> basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. >> >> It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had 17 >> elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of the >> number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest >> would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide >> from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to >> be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the >> number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided >> 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and >> the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, >> which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. >> >> And everyone was happy. >> >> That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, >> it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in >> reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept >> them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. >> >> Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of David Kellogg >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, >> Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so >> because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls >> the interpersonal meta-function). >> >> Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an >> explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight >> reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the >> vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore >> examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is >> not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The >> Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. >> >> Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness >> that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, >> sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The >> conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange >> goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the >> hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, >> and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old >> Spinoza--free will. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy_1_BodFA$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy8Dw04lRg$ >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >> David, >> >> But what of *conatus*? Isn't that something innate within all beings? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this >> list. ? >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of David Kellogg >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is >> what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles >> respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at >> any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. >> >> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is >> crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is >> "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in >> physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a >> change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. >> (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's >> waving analogy....) >> >> Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or >> less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the >> environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the >> potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make >> this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include >> the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT >> issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, >> though....) >> : >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy_1_BodFA$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy8Dw04lRg$ >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts >> of the whole organism. The emotion *is* the state of a whole organism, >> in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave >> to someone. >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >> >> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts >> subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a >> physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they >> get quite another interpretation." >> >> The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the >> mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps >> that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system >> that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. >> >> (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, >> when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart >> that was broken but his stomach....) >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy_1_BodFA$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy8Dw04lRg$ >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 >> as well. >> >> One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to >> cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The >> German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the *Enc*, >> This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, >> on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, >> though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology of Spirit*. >> >> >> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English >> translation is here: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy-bZb1DIA$ >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself >> composed of three parts: >> >> - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology >> - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and >> - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. >> >> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or >> editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into >> English, >> >> I would start with the 1930 version" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy_rndx-ug$ >> >> - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. >> >> The 1817 version has >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy-qKt6X3g$ >> >> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective >> Spirit. >> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the >> basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of >> thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will >> photocopy it and send it on. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those >> cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). >> It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with >> questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. >> >> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey >> mean when he says: >> >> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation >> of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >> >> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number >> refer to a page number or a section or what? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy8qtxgKQw$ >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy_1_BodFA$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy8Dw04lRg$ >> >> >> >> > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy8saRgFrg$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xxq0NKn9awiKBT9y_z4T4ukZIYN7_xFrmEewMEYY8zIC5gI5WeAP-Ib0tQU4jy8saRgFrg$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200727/93202b12/attachment.html From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Jul 27 10:42:23 2020 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:42:23 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> Message-ID: <634DC250-C9A0-4F9A-9EE9-7C2FFC35D20D@gmail.com> You?re nailing it, Beth. Like John Henry and Pete Seger. A quiet hammer. Maybe every problem IS a nail? Every tool a hammer? Affordances. Just got to know how to swing. And it don?t mean a thing if it ain?t got that?.. Henry > On Jul 27, 2020, at 11:07 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > I am so glad to hear. This is my goal for everything during this illness of the world. Like flowers in a sick room, the main goal is to get to the other side of this ordeal, and the heavy thoughts are precious and often exceptionally clear at this time but the thing is to join them to beautiful things when we can. > > I'm working from a favorite essay, that I'm referring to alot lately -- Virginia Woolf's On Being Ill -- her mom also wrote brilliantly on the topic, my favorite part is about crumbs on the sheets : ) . > > Beth > > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 12:51 PM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > Nice, Beth! Proleptic development at any age, in any relation? A light touch. I have to constantly remember to have a sense of humor, a playful approach. I can get sooooo heavy. There has to be some laughter. Lesson plans, agendas can weigh things down. Sweet spot intentions have the most potential for development. I thought your post hit a sweet spot. > Henry > > >> On Jul 27, 2020, at 12:35 AM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: >> >> Thank you, all in this thread. >> >> Sometimes XMCA hits right when needed! >> >> If you want to know the mind of a person raising a person, study the object-oriented activity of raising people. I think that if you use a playworld to help shape and gain access to observing this activity, you can actually see that emotion, the state of the whole adult, and also visa-versa, meaning the state of the whole child (in some way, although it's not parallel), so a certain presence with the other person or embodiment/communication of emotion, makes possible the one becoming a bridge (portal) for the other and visa-versa through time, and it is this that is both the mind of of the adult and the development of/developing of the mind of the child -- proleptic development. >> >> This thread just fit right into what I was thinking about Paley's writing on emotions -- I know that what I just wrote is still short, raw and hard to decipher -- I just wanted to share. >> >> Beth >> >> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 6:15 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> Hi David W! >> >> True what you say! >> >> The concept of conatus likely goes back further than the Romans. My point was that the definitions differ over time. That is why I insisted we understand what Spinoza intended when he used the word. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. > >> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:42 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> Going back even further than Spinoza and conatus is its origins in Aristotle's construction of energeia - entelecheia: between being-at-work [ergon] and being at-an-end [entelecheia] or working to maintain one's proper identity i.e. being a human being. >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > >> Sent: 26 July 2020 19:49 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> Hello, >> >> My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. >> >> Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of conatus. >> >> Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining the word conatus >> >> Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it is important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. >> >> I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." >> >> However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so it makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he uses the word to reflect his concept of it. >> >> It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. >> >> If we get the meaning of conatus wrong, then everything that sits upon its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. >> >> According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states conatus is an innate property whereby "each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere in its being" (Ethics <>, part 3, prop. 6). >> >> This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. >> >> Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the way that you seem to use the word, David. >> >> "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined conatus as the essence of human society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." >> >> This word hylozoistic is interesting as it pertains to a living essence in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in terms of a split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian that the word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in all matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. To me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" upon non-human entities. >> >> The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much about it. >> >> This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind is human, in the sense >> >> consciousness human = mind. >> >> Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. >> >> Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for humans. >> >> If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why doesn't a rock have a mind as well? >> >> Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say rock is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in nature? It doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock on the earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like the bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are present or not. >> >> If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express themselves as we express our language vocal or written. >> >> We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. >> >> Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the universe, then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our place in the universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger entity from which we spring. >> >> So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens conatus to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish conatus from desire and from affect: >> >> "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire is generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. So desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the Ethics) >> >> Let's think on that. >> >> appetite = desire >> >> however the equation might be better put this way: >> >> desire = appetite x awarenesshuman >> >> Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a sense it is turtles all the way down. >> >> appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human >> >> where >> >> conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human >> >> indeed >> >> anything = anything x awarenessnon-human >> >> because awareness/consciousness pervades all. >> >> What is beautiful about conatus as a concept is that it provides a basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. >> >> It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had 17 elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of the number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. >> >> And everyone was happy. >> >> That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. >> >> Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > >> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls the interpersonal meta-function). >> >> Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. >> >> Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old Spinoza--free will. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AWPnO3P3A$ >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AUfJXeDaw$ >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: >> David, >> >> But what of conatus? Isn't that something innate within all beings? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this list. ? >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > >> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> [EXTERNAL] >> >> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. >> >> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) >> >> Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) >> : >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AWPnO3P3A$ >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AUfJXeDaw$ >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: >> No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion is the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. >> >> andy >> >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >>> >>> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." >>> >>> The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. >>> >>> (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AWPnO3P3A$ >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AUfJXeDaw$ >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: >>> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. >>> >>> One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of Hegel Werke. The German word for "page" is Seite, so you would say "S. 401" of the Enc, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the Phenomenology of Spirit. >>> >>> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AVb9d4mYw$ >>> Andy >>> >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: >>>> >>>> Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology >>>> Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and >>>> Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. >>>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, >>>> >>>> I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AU2yXzJQg$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. >>>> >>>> The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AWwcGAw9w$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. >>>> >>>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> Home Page >>>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. >>>>> >>>>> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: >>>>> >>>>> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >>>>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AVj__Iz1A$ >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AWPnO3P3A$ >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AUfJXeDaw$ >>>>> >> >> -- >> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >> Associate Professor >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> >> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University >> >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AU6JprHFg$ >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> Office: 2306 James Hall >> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UWOLUjjmjcD4KcL2-UjHLwTfRSwDOLr4TBY_Sajg_qHCBgymLnEWMoDeZVkR9AU6JprHFg$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200727/7df0fd7b/attachment-0001.html From bferholt@gmail.com Mon Jul 27 16:13:56 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:13:56 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: <634DC250-C9A0-4F9A-9EE9-7C2FFC35D20D@gmail.com> References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> <634DC250-C9A0-4F9A-9EE9-7C2FFC35D20D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have also been thinking of Pete Seger this summer! : ) -- Beth On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 1:45 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > You?re nailing it, Beth. Like John Henry and Pete Seger. A quiet hammer. > Maybe every problem IS a nail? Every tool a hammer? Affordances. Just got > to know how to swing. And it don?t mean a thing if it ain?t got that?.. > Henry > > > > > On Jul 27, 2020, at 11:07 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > I am so glad to hear. This is my goal for everything during this illness > of the world. Like flowers in a sick room, the main goal is to get to the > other side of this ordeal, and the heavy thoughts are precious and often > exceptionally clear at this time but the thing is to join them to beautiful > things when we can. > > I'm working from a favorite essay, that I'm referring to alot lately -- > Virginia Woolf's On Being Ill -- her mom also wrote brilliantly on the > topic, my favorite part is about crumbs on the sheets : ) . > > Beth > > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 12:51 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Nice, Beth! Proleptic development at any age, in any relation? A light >> touch. I have to constantly remember to have a sense of humor, a playful >> approach. I can get sooooo heavy. There has to be some laughter. Lesson >> plans, agendas can weigh things down. Sweet spot intentions have the most >> potential for development. I thought your post hit a sweet spot. >> Henry >> >> >> On Jul 27, 2020, at 12:35 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: >> >> Thank you, all in this thread. >> >> Sometimes XMCA hits right when needed! >> >> If you want to know the mind of a person raising a person, study the >> object-oriented activity of raising people. I think that if you use a >> playworld to help shape and gain access to observing this activity, you can >> actually see that emotion, the state of the whole adult, and also >> visa-versa, meaning the state of the whole child (in some way, although >> it's not parallel), so a certain presence with the other person or >> embodiment/communication of emotion, makes possible the one becoming a >> bridge (portal) for the other and visa-versa through time, and it is this >> that is both the mind of of the adult and the development of/developing of >> the mind of the child -- proleptic development. >> >> This thread just fit right into what I was thinking about Paley's writing >> on emotions -- I know that what I just wrote is still short, raw and hard >> to decipher -- I just wanted to share. >> >> Beth >> >> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 6:15 PM Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >>> Hi David W! >>> >>> True what you say! >>> >>> The concept of *conatus* likely goes back further than the Romans. My >>> point was that the definitions differ over time. That is why I insisted we >>> understand what Spinoza intended when he used the word. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. >>> *Sent:* Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:42 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> Going back even further than Spinoza and conatus is its origins in >>> Aristotle's construction of energeia - entelecheia: between being-at-work >>> [ergon] and being at-an-end [entelecheia] or working to maintain one's >>> proper identity i.e. being a human being. >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar >>> *Sent:* 26 July 2020 19:49 >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on >>> this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. >>> Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. >>> >>> Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. >>> However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has >>> the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of *conatus*. >>> >>> *Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining >>> the word conatus* >>> >>> Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it >>> is important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be >>> polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is >>> to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but >>> also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon >>> which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. >>> >>> I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back >>> with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." >>> >>> However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so >>> it makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he >>> uses the word to reflect his concept of it. >>> >>> It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the >>> basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying >>> it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. >>> >>> If we get the meaning of *conatus* wrong, then everything that sits >>> upon its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what >>> contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. >>> >>> According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states *conatus* is an innate property >>> whereby "*each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere >>> in its being*" (*Ethics*, part 3, prop. 6). >>> >>> This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of >>> existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist >>> unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation >>> depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are >>> discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social >>> self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was >>> excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. >>> >>> Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the >>> way that you seem to use the word, David. >>> >>> "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined *conatus* as the essence of >>> human society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the >>> generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." >>> >>> >>> This word *hylozoistic* is interesting as it pertains to a living >>> essence in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in >>> terms of a split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian >>> that the word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in >>> all matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. >>> To me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" >>> upon non-human entities. >>> >>> The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying >>> there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind >>> in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all >>> matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were >>> deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the >>> non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much >>> about it. >>> >>> This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind >>> is human, in the sense >>> >>> consciousness human = mind. >>> >>> >>> Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is >>> not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other >>> different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. >>> >>> Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest >>> with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it >>> is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and >>> heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the >>> lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for >>> humans. >>> >>> If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, >>> then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are >>> made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, >>> etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why >>> doesn't a rock have a mind as well? >>> >>> Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say >>> rock is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in >>> nature? It doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock >>> on the earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like >>> the bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are >>> present or not. >>> >>> If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line >>> between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say >>> language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and >>> reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, >>> it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the >>> word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial >>> intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't >>> mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express >>> themselves as we express our language vocal or written. >>> >>> We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin >>> over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make >>> ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. >>> >>> Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the >>> universe, then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our >>> place in the universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger >>> entity from which we spring. >>> >>> So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a >>> machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from >>> within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens >>> *conatus* to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish >>> conatus from desire and from affect: >>> >>> "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire >>> is generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. >>> So desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the >>> appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the *Ethics*) >>> >>> Let's think on that. >>> >>> appetite = desire >>> >>> >>> however the equation might be better put this way: >>> >>> desire = appetite x awarenesshuman >>> >>> >>> Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from >>> non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a >>> sense it is turtles all the way down. >>> >>> appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human >>> >>> >>> where >>> >>> conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human >>> >>> >>> indeed >>> >>> anything = anything x awarenessnon-human >>> >>> >>> because awareness/consciousness pervades all. >>> >>> What is beautiful about *conatus* as a concept is that it provides a >>> basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. >>> >>> It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had >>> 17 elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of >>> the number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest >>> would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide >>> from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to >>> be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the >>> number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided >>> 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and >>> the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, >>> which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. >>> >>> And everyone was happy. >>> >>> That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, >>> it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in >>> reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept >>> them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. >>> >>> Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, >>> Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so >>> because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls >>> the interpersonal meta-function). >>> >>> Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an >>> explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight >>> reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the >>> vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore >>> examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is >>> not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The >>> Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. >>> >>> Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of >>> togetherness that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. >>> Yes, sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The >>> conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange >>> goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the >>> hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, >>> and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old >>> Spinoza--free will. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqnmA4nccA$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqmefFzlmw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar >>> wrote: >>> >>> David, >>> >>> But what of *conatus*? Isn't that something innate within all beings? >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on >>> this list. ? >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of David Kellogg >>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >>> >>> >>> * [EXTERNAL]* >>> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory >>> is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles >>> respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at >>> any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. >>> >>> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is >>> crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is >>> "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in >>> physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a >>> change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. >>> (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's >>> waving analogy....) >>> >>> Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or >>> less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the >>> environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the >>> potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make >>> this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include >>> the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT >>> issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, >>> though....) >>> : >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqnmA4nccA$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqmefFzlmw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts >>> of the whole organism. The emotion *is* the state of a whole organism, >>> in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave >>> to someone. >>> >>> andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >>> >>> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts >>> subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a >>> physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they >>> get quite another interpretation." >>> >>> The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, >>> the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But >>> perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a >>> system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. >>> >>> (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, >>> when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart >>> that was broken but his stomach....) >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqnmA4nccA$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqmefFzlmw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in >>> 402 as well. >>> >>> One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to >>> cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The >>> German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the >>> *Enc*, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the >>> Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous >>> Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology >>> of Spirit*. >>> >>> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English >>> translation is here: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7Cqn9jFxozg$ >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself >>> composed of three parts: >>> >>> - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology >>> - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and >>> - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and >>> Philosophy. >>> >>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or >>> editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into >>> English, >>> >>> I would start with the 1930 version" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7Cqkb7gpnPg$ >>> >>> - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. >>> >>> The 1817 version has >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqlY-RfV_w$ >>> >>> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective >>> Spirit. >>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on >>> the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development >>> of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will >>> photocopy it and send it on. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those >>> cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). >>> It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with >>> questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. >>> >>> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John >>> Dewey mean when he says: >>> >>> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude >>> anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, >>> 401."? >>> >>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number >>> refer to a page number or a section or what? >>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7Cqm7uE6M_A$ >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqnmA4nccA$ >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological >>> Works* * Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqmefFzlmw$ >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >> Associate Professor >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> >> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >> University >> >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqkGeEugtw$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> Office: 2306 James Hall >> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> >> >> > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqkGeEugtw$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!UQV-6fmj6_7Sju6joBxHLDQSzVeNU5wZkf2XzhNBSA-N9eA-0kLlS-fUldt7CqkGeEugtw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200727/4e5d7935/attachment.html From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jul 27 17:05:58 2020 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 00:05:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> <634DC250-C9A0-4F9A-9EE9-7C2FFC35D20D@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Hello Beth, Thank you for putting Virginia back on my radar. She is a favorite of mine. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 5:13 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] I have also been thinking of Pete Seger this summer! : ) -- Beth On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 1:45 PM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: You?re nailing it, Beth. Like John Henry and Pete Seger. A quiet hammer. Maybe every problem IS a nail? Every tool a hammer? Affordances. Just got to know how to swing. And it don?t mean a thing if it ain?t got that?.. Henry On Jul 27, 2020, at 11:07 AM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: I am so glad to hear. This is my goal for everything during this illness of the world. Like flowers in a sick room, the main goal is to get to the other side of this ordeal, and the heavy thoughts are precious and often exceptionally clear at this time but the thing is to join them to beautiful things when we can. I'm working from a favorite essay, that I'm referring to alot lately -- Virginia Woolf's On Being Ill -- her mom also wrote brilliantly on the topic, my favorite part is about crumbs on the sheets : ) . Beth On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 12:51 PM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Nice, Beth! Proleptic development at any age, in any relation? A light touch. I have to constantly remember to have a sense of humor, a playful approach. I can get sooooo heavy. There has to be some laughter. Lesson plans, agendas can weigh things down. Sweet spot intentions have the most potential for development. I thought your post hit a sweet spot. Henry On Jul 27, 2020, at 12:35 AM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: Thank you, all in this thread. Sometimes XMCA hits right when needed! If you want to know the mind of a person raising a person, study the object-oriented activity of raising people. I think that if you use a playworld to help shape and gain access to observing this activity, you can actually see that emotion, the state of the whole adult, and also visa-versa, meaning the state of the whole child (in some way, although it's not parallel), so a certain presence with the other person or embodiment/communication of emotion, makes possible the one becoming a bridge (portal) for the other and visa-versa through time, and it is this that is both the mind of of the adult and the development of/developing of the mind of the child -- proleptic development. This thread just fit right into what I was thinking about Paley's writing on emotions -- I know that what I just wrote is still short, raw and hard to decipher -- I just wanted to share. Beth On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 6:15 PM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: Hi David W! True what you say! The concept of conatus likely goes back further than the Romans. My point was that the definitions differ over time. That is why I insisted we understand what Spinoza intended when he used the word. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:42 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Going back even further than Spinoza and conatus is its origins in Aristotle's construction of energeia - entelecheia: between being-at-work [ergon] and being at-an-end [entelecheia] or working to maintain one's proper identity i.e. being a human being. ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: 26 July 2020 19:49 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? Hello, My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of conatus. Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining the word conatus Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it is important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so it makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he uses the word to reflect his concept of it. It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. If we get the meaning of conatus wrong, then everything that sits upon its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states conatus is an innate property whereby "each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere in its being" (Ethics, part 3, prop. 6). This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the way that you seem to use the word, David. "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined conatus as the essence of human society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." This word hylozoistic is interesting as it pertains to a living essence in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in terms of a split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian that the word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in all matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. To me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" upon non-human entities. The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much about it. This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind is human, in the sense consciousness human = mind. Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for humans. If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why doesn't a rock have a mind as well? Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say rock is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in nature? It doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock on the earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like the bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are present or not. If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express themselves as we express our language vocal or written. We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the universe, then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our place in the universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger entity from which we spring. So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens conatus to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish conatus from desire and from affect: "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire is generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. So desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the Ethics) Let's think on that. appetite = desire however the equation might be better put this way: desire = appetite x awarenesshuman Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a sense it is turtles all the way down. appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human where conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human indeed anything = anything x awarenessnon-human because awareness/consciousness pervades all. What is beautiful about conatus as a concept is that it provides a basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had 17 elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of the number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. And everyone was happy. That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls the interpersonal meta-function). Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old Spinoza--free will. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelZ6HBIIQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelRWdsW4A$ On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: David, But what of conatus? Isn't that something innate within all beings? Kind regards, Annalisa P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this list. ? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? [EXTERNAL] Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) : David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelZ6HBIIQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelRWdsW4A$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts of the whole organism. The emotion is the state of a whole organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: Thanks, Andy--this is it! "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they get quite another interpretation." The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart that was broken but his stomach....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelZ6HBIIQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelRWdsW4A$ On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden > wrote: If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the page no. in the authoritative version of Hegel Werke. The German word for "page" is Seite, so you would say "S. 401" of the Enc, This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, though in a much reduced form, not like in the Phenomenology of Spirit. See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English translation is here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaendRv4GDw$ Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself composed of three parts: * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology * Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into English, I would start with the 1930 version" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelnX-gEkw$ - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. The 1817 version has https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaemS0cQJMA$ - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will photocopy it and send it on. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey mean when he says: "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number refer to a page number or a section or what? https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaekOgEO9_g$ David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. Outlines, Spring 2020 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelZ6HBIIQ$ New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelRWdsW4A$ -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelzduhRww$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelzduhRww$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QLZReqqg4yr5j7BrK_Mh9c5rEtab_-qrplQkwhs0D9xrkmsykdb1ZNz_vVtcaelzduhRww$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200728/b5afdc61/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Mon Jul 27 18:00:16 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 21:00:16 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> <634DC250-C9A0-4F9A-9EE9-7C2FFC35D20D@gmail.com> Message-ID: : ) On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:07 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello Beth, > > Thank you for putting Virginia back on my radar. She is a favorite of > mine. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Beth Ferholt > *Sent:* Monday, July 27, 2020 5:13 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > I have also been thinking of Pete Seger this summer! : ) -- Beth > > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 1:45 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > You?re nailing it, Beth. Like John Henry and Pete Seger. A quiet hammer. > Maybe every problem IS a nail? Every tool a hammer? Affordances. Just got > to know how to swing. And it don?t mean a thing if it ain?t got that?.. > Henry > > > > > On Jul 27, 2020, at 11:07 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > I am so glad to hear. This is my goal for everything during this illness > of the world. Like flowers in a sick room, the main goal is to get to the > other side of this ordeal, and the heavy thoughts are precious and often > exceptionally clear at this time but the thing is to join them to beautiful > things when we can. > > I'm working from a favorite essay, that I'm referring to alot lately -- > Virginia Woolf's On Being Ill -- her mom also wrote brilliantly on the > topic, my favorite part is about crumbs on the sheets : ) . > > Beth > > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 12:51 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Nice, Beth! Proleptic development at any age, in any relation? A light > touch. I have to constantly remember to have a sense of humor, a playful > approach. I can get sooooo heavy. There has to be some laughter. Lesson > plans, agendas can weigh things down. Sweet spot intentions have the most > potential for development. I thought your post hit a sweet spot. > Henry > > > On Jul 27, 2020, at 12:35 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > Thank you, all in this thread. > > Sometimes XMCA hits right when needed! > > If you want to know the mind of a person raising a person, study the > object-oriented activity of raising people. I think that if you use a > playworld to help shape and gain access to observing this activity, you can > actually see that emotion, the state of the whole adult, and also > visa-versa, meaning the state of the whole child (in some way, although > it's not parallel), so a certain presence with the other person or > embodiment/communication of emotion, makes possible the one becoming a > bridge (portal) for the other and visa-versa through time, and it is this > that is both the mind of of the adult and the development of/developing of > the mind of the child -- proleptic development. > > This thread just fit right into what I was thinking about Paley's writing > on emotions -- I know that what I just wrote is still short, raw and hard > to decipher -- I just wanted to share. > > Beth > > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 6:15 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi David W! > > True what you say! > > The concept of *conatus* likely goes back further than the Romans. My > point was that the definitions differ over time. That is why I insisted we > understand what Spinoza intended when he used the word. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. > *Sent:* Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:42 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Going back even further than Spinoza and conatus is its origins in > Aristotle's construction of energeia - entelecheia: between being-at-work > [ergon] and being at-an-end [entelecheia] or working to maintain one's > proper identity i.e. being a human being. > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > *Sent:* 26 July 2020 19:49 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > Hello, > > My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on > this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. > Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. > > Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. > However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has > the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of *conatus*. > > *Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining the > word conatus* > > Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it is > important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be > polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is > to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but > also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon > which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. > > I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back > with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." > > However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so it > makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he > uses the word to reflect his concept of it. > > It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the > basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying > it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. > > If we get the meaning of *conatus* wrong, then everything that sits upon > its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what > contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. > > According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states *conatus* is an innate property > whereby "*each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere > in its being*" (*Ethics*, part 3, prop. 6). > > This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of > existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist > unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation > depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are > discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social > self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was > excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. > > Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the way > that you seem to use the word, David. > > "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined *conatus* as the essence of human > society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the > generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." > > > This word * hylozoistic* is interesting as it pertains to a living > essence in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in > terms of a split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian > that the word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in > all matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. > To me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" > upon non-human entities. > > The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying > there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind > in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all > matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were > deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the > non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much > about it. > > This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind is > human, in the sense > > consciousness human = mind. > > > Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is > not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other > different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. > > Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest > with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it > is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and > heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the > lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for > humans. > > If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, > then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are > made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, > etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why > doesn't a rock have a mind as well? > > Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say rock > is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in nature? It > doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock on the > earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like the > bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are > present or not. > > If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line > between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say > language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and > reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, > it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the > word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial > intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't > mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express > themselves as we express our language vocal or written. > > We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin > over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make > ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. > > Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the universe, > then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our place in the > universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger entity from > which we spring. > > So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a > machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from > within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens > *conatus* to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish conatus > from desire and from affect: > > "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire is > generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. So > desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the > appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the *Ethics*) > > Let's think on that. > > appetite = desire > > > however the equation might be better put this way: > > desire = appetite x awarenesshuman > > > Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from > non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a > sense it is turtles all the way down. > > appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human > > > where > > conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human > > > indeed > > anything = anything x awarenessnon-human > > > because awareness/consciousness pervades all. > > What is beautiful about *conatus* as a concept is that it provides a > basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. > > It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had 17 > elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of the > number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest > would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide > from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to > be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the > number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided > 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and > the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, > which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. > > And everyone was happy. > > That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, > it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in > reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept > them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. > > Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, > Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so > because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls > the interpersonal meta-function). > > Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an > explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight > reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the > vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore > examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is > not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The > Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. > > Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness > that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, > sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The > conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange > goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the > hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, > and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old > Spinoza--free will. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2tAxv5Kw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2RX_Z6wA$ > > > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > David, > > But what of * conatus*? Isn't that something innate within all beings? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this > list. ? > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? > > > * [EXTERNAL]* > Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is > what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles > respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at > any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. > > I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is > crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is > "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in > physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a > change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. > (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's > waving analogy....) > > Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or > less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the > environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the > potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make > this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include > the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT > issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, > though....) > : > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2tAxv5Kw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2RX_Z6wA$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts > of the whole organism. The emotion *is* the state of a whole organism, in > particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave to > someone. > > andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > Thanks, Andy--this is it! > > "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts > subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a > physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they > get quite another interpretation." > > The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the > mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps > that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system > that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. > > (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, > when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart > that was broken but his stomach....) > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2tAxv5Kw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2RX_Z6wA$ > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > > If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 > as well. > > One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to > cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The > German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the *Enc*, > This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, > on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, > though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology of Spirit*. > > See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English > translation is here: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp3TcWuFwQ$ > > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself > composed of three parts: > > - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology > - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and > - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. > > The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or > editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into > English, > > I would start with the 1930 version" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2gOWG5iQ$ > > - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. > > The 1817 version has > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp0OmJUmzg$ > > - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective > Spirit. > The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the > basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of > thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will > photocopy it and send it on. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those > cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). > It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with > questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. > > We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey > mean when he says: > > "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation > of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? > > Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number > refer to a page number or a section or what? > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2VqjfQ5g$ > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. > Outlines, Spring 2020 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2tAxv5Kw$ > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2RX_Z6wA$ > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2qX_Aa-g$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2qX_Aa-g$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2qX_Aa-g$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RnwvhqA7GLKH0KzlxI8fLctJBC3wzvP-kVKYlY0Ff2UjNN4n4HzXuulQWaNnMp2qX_Aa-g$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200727/649471b2/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Mon Jul 27 18:02:38 2020 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 21:02:38 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> <634DC250-C9A0-4F9A-9EE9-7C2FFC35D20D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Annalisa: I am re-reading the Waves this summer, too -- we all seem very connected in this pandemic -- that's partly how I read Andy's piece on CP. Anyhow it's a useful way to think about consciousness, to question it's being considered the property of the individual, I find. Beth On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 9:00 PM Beth Ferholt wrote: > : ) > > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:07 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hello Beth, >> >> Thank you for putting Virginia back on my radar. She is a favorite of >> mine. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Beth Ferholt >> *Sent:* Monday, July 27, 2020 5:13 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> I have also been thinking of Pete Seger this summer! : ) -- Beth >> >> On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 1:45 PM HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >> You?re nailing it, Beth. Like John Henry and Pete Seger. A quiet hammer. >> Maybe every problem IS a nail? Every tool a hammer? Affordances. Just got >> to know how to swing. And it don?t mean a thing if it ain?t got that?.. >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 27, 2020, at 11:07 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: >> >> I am so glad to hear. This is my goal for everything during this illness >> of the world. Like flowers in a sick room, the main goal is to get to the >> other side of this ordeal, and the heavy thoughts are precious and often >> exceptionally clear at this time but the thing is to join them to beautiful >> things when we can. >> >> I'm working from a favorite essay, that I'm referring to alot lately -- >> Virginia Woolf's On Being Ill -- her mom also wrote brilliantly on the >> topic, my favorite part is about crumbs on the sheets : ) . >> >> Beth >> >> On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 12:51 PM HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >> >> Nice, Beth! Proleptic development at any age, in any relation? A light >> touch. I have to constantly remember to have a sense of humor, a playful >> approach. I can get sooooo heavy. There has to be some laughter. Lesson >> plans, agendas can weigh things down. Sweet spot intentions have the most >> potential for development. I thought your post hit a sweet spot. >> Henry >> >> >> On Jul 27, 2020, at 12:35 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: >> >> Thank you, all in this thread. >> >> Sometimes XMCA hits right when needed! >> >> If you want to know the mind of a person raising a person, study the >> object-oriented activity of raising people. I think that if you use a >> playworld to help shape and gain access to observing this activity, you can >> actually see that emotion, the state of the whole adult, and also >> visa-versa, meaning the state of the whole child (in some way, although >> it's not parallel), so a certain presence with the other person or >> embodiment/communication of emotion, makes possible the one becoming a >> bridge (portal) for the other and visa-versa through time, and it is this >> that is both the mind of of the adult and the development of/developing of >> the mind of the child -- proleptic development. >> >> This thread just fit right into what I was thinking about Paley's writing >> on emotions -- I know that what I just wrote is still short, raw and hard >> to decipher -- I just wanted to share. >> >> Beth >> >> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 6:15 PM Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >> Hi David W! >> >> True what you say! >> >> The concept of *conatus* likely goes back further than the Romans. My >> point was that the definitions differ over time. That is why I insisted we >> understand what Spinoza intended when he used the word. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. >> *Sent:* Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:42 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Going back even further than Spinoza and conatus is its origins in >> Aristotle's construction of energeia - entelecheia: between being-at-work >> [ergon] and being at-an-end [entelecheia] or working to maintain one's >> proper identity i.e. being a human being. >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar >> *Sent:* 26 July 2020 19:49 >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> Hello, >> >> My pace on this conversation is clearly out of step with the others on >> this thread, as such, I shall try to catch up. Please forgive my tardiness. >> Unfortunately to make up for the short email I must add this long one. >> >> Something I had started to write became lost and now must start again. >> However as I recollect my main point had been I do not believe David has >> the proper understanding of Spinoza's concept of *conatus*. >> >> *Stage direction: And then they embarked upon an exercise of defining the >> word conatus* >> >> Conatus has its own history and development, and this is exactly why it >> is important to agree on the definition of terms, because words can be >> polysemantic, and the more nuanced the meaning, the more imperative it is >> to define the terms, if only so that people can know what you mean, but >> also if a word is mis-taken, this can change the entire argument, upon >> which the argument sits (on the word) as a conceptual foundation. >> >> I asked the sage Wikipedia about the word "conatus" and it starts back >> with the Romans, the term being Latin, of course, to signify "endeavor." >> >> However for Spinoza, this was a core concept for his worldview, and so it >> makes sense to be very precise about understanding what he meant when he >> uses the word to reflect his concept of it. >> >> It doesn't make sense for Vygotsky to reject conatus, if conatus was the >> basis for Spinoza's philosophy. This is again lifting the cream, enjoying >> it, and simultaneously refuting the cow exists. >> >> If we get the meaning of *conatus* wrong, then everything that sits upon >> its shoulders will be too. So we have to really be precise about what >> contatus means to fully appreciate Spinoza. >> >> According to Sage Wiki, Spinoza states *conatus* is an innate property >> whereby "*each thing, as far as it lies in itself, strives to persevere >> in its being*" (*Ethics*, part 3, prop. 6). >> >> This has nothing to do with sociability, but pertains to matters of >> existence and being. Of course some people do not feel that they exist >> unless they reside in a social context, or even that self-preservation >> depends upon others, which has some truth, but that is not what we are >> discussing, methinks. Existence isn't political or social >> self-preservation. It's just being in the world. Given Spinoza was >> excommunicated and reviled, this makes a lot of sense. >> >> Going down farther the page, Vico seems to use the word conatus in the >> way that you seem to use the word, David. >> >> "Giambattista Vico (1668?1744) defined *conatus* as the essence of human >> society, and also, in a more traditional, hylozoistic sense, as the >> generating power of movement which pervades all of nature." >> >> >> This word * hylozoistic* is interesting as it pertains to a living >> essence in all matter, but not of mind (which seems to be Cartesian in >> terms of a split between mind and body, even though this was pre-Cartesian >> that the word was coined). When referring to a worldview that sees mind in >> all matter, Sag Wiki says hylopsychism is the word, in a panpsychism sense. >> To me, [blank]-psychism is just anthropomorphizing "mind" and "mentality" >> upon non-human entities. >> >> The ancient Greeks, where the concept of hylozoistic derives, in saying >> there is a living essence in all matter, did not mean that there was mind >> in all matter, but they did mean there was conscious-awareness in all >> matter (Same as for the ancient Vedics). They chose to say there were >> deities within matter, which is also projecting human qualities upon the >> non-human, something we are really good at doing without thinking much >> about it. >> >> This is why it's important to distinguish consciousness from mind. Mind >> is human, in the sense >> >> consciousness human = mind. >> >> >> Consciousness is everywhere, it is not solely human. We are of it, it is >> not of us. Mind is the human flavor of consciousness, but there are other >> different forms of consciousness, and we see this in animals, and plants. >> >> Still if we can have a little more objectivity (and allow mind to rest >> with humans and allow consciousness to express itself as it is where it >> is), we also see it in the earth in a gaia sense, and in the stars and >> heavens. So David, there can be relationships between the clouds and the >> lithosphere. Like consciousness, "relationship" isn't a word reserved for >> humans. >> >> If we do not purchase a Cartesian worldview, and mind and body are one, >> then we have to sort out how we have a mind in the first place. If we are >> made of material, the same as everything else (such as water, minerals, >> etc), and we have minds, what makes us express mind the way we do? Why >> doesn't a rock have a mind as well? >> >> Yet, if we can say the rock is alive (think magma), why can't we say rock >> is conscious in that it animates and how it organizes itself in nature? It >> doesn't have mind, but it is conscious. In that sense every rock on the >> earth is like a leaf dropped from the tree. The lithosphere is like the >> bark of the tree. It's all motion outside and beyond us, whether we are >> present or not. >> >> If instead we say only humans are conscious, then where is the line >> between us and everything else that "isn't conscious?" You can't say >> language divides us, because animals have language, as do insects and >> reptiles, even if it may not be vocal or sound-based, it can be pheromones, >> it still communicates and it does so intelligently (if we can allow the >> word intelligent to be used in a non-human sense, as in the way "artificial >> intelligence" is used). Just because we can't understand a language doesn't >> mean it isn't a language. There could be languages that just do not express >> themselves as we express our language vocal or written. >> >> We are too human-centric in our worldview. We see humans commit this sin >> over and over again (even to each other). We have a tendency to make >> ourselves the center of the universe and discount everything else. >> >> Once we can start to accept consciousness being pervasive in the >> universe, then we can start to understand ourselves much better and our >> place in the universe, as well as see we are quite small in a much larger >> entity from which we spring. >> >> So you are right David that Spinoza is not writing about an upkeep of a >> machine. He is talking about motivations and intentions that spring from >> within that are not mental per se. In the same wikipage, Bidney likens >> *conatus* to desire, but even Spinoza was explicit to distinguish >> conatus from desire and from affect: >> >> "Between appetite and desire there is no difference, except that desire >> is generally related to men insofar as they are conscious of the appetite. >> So desire can be defined as appetite together with consciousness of the >> appetite." (Scholium of IIIP9 of the *Ethics*) >> >> Let's think on that. >> >> appetite = desire >> >> >> however the equation might be better put this way: >> >> desire = appetite x awarenesshuman >> >> >> Conatus generates appetite. Conatus in all its expression derives from >> non-human awareness and the drive of life/existence. The conundrum is in a >> sense it is turtles all the way down. >> >> appetite = conatus x awarenessnon-human >> >> >> where >> >> conatus = drive x awarenessnon-human >> >> >> indeed >> >> anything = anything x awarenessnon-human >> >> >> because awareness/consciousness pervades all. >> >> What is beautiful about *conatus* as a concept is that it provides a >> basis, instead of getting bogged down with turtles. >> >> It is analogous to the story of the king with three sons. The king had 17 >> elephants and said upon his death the oldest son would get one half of the >> number of elephants, the second son would get a third, and the youngest >> would get a ninth. When the king died, the sons did not know how to divide >> from the number 17. So they pressed a sage to help them. The sage, glad to >> be of assistance, explained they could add his own white elephant to the >> number to make the division easier. In doing this, the eldest was provided >> 9 elephants (one-half of 18), the middle was given 6 (one-third of 18) and >> the youngest 2 (one-ninth of 18). This left the white elephant remaining, >> which of course belonged to the wise man, to which he asked for its return. >> >> And everyone was happy. >> >> That is why Vygotsky could object, I suppose, if he did object. Because, >> it seems slight of hand and unscientific. But there is everywhere in >> reality a variety illusions and appearances as such, that we have to accept >> them as they are without getting into why they appear as they do. >> >> Like the setting sun, which in reality never sets. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of David Kellogg >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:46 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Thanks for that point, and even for its uncharacteristic succinctness, >> Annalisa. I should emulate it, but I as you can see I am not doing so >> because of Jakobson's conative function of language (what Halliday calls >> the interpersonal meta-function). >> >> Vygotsky starts out by noticing that Lange (but not James) make an >> explicit appeal to Spinoza, on precisely this point: fight-or-flight >> reactions are essentially preservative in purpose, and the changes in the >> vasomotor system he puts at the root of all human feeling are therefore >> examples of what Spinoza calls conatus. Vygotsky rejects this. Spinoza is >> not writing about the upkeep of a machine: that's a Cartesian schtick. The >> Ethics is not Zen and the art of bipedal maintenance. >> >> Spinoza's conatus is more like our sociability, the sense of togetherness >> that humans try to maintain in almost all their interactions. Yes, >> sociability is instinctive, but it's not just instinctive, is it? The >> conative functions of language (the functions which allow us to exchange >> goods and services and to share information) are something we all learn the >> hard way, something we have to create anew with every communicative act, >> and even, to a very large extent, something that was anathema to old >> Spinoza--free will. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2pzDv2w1Q$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2rRpQN1Og$ >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 6:29 AM Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >> David, >> >> But what of * conatus*? Isn't that something innate within all beings? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> P.S. This is likely the shortest post I've made in some lifetimes on this >> list. ? >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of David Kellogg >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:01 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> >> * [EXTERNAL]* >> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is >> what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles >> respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at >> any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. >> >> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is >> crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is >> "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in >> physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a >> change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. >> (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's >> waving analogy....) >> >> Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or >> less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the >> environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the >> potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make >> this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include >> the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT >> issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, >> though....) >> : >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2pzDv2w1Q$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2rRpQN1Og$ >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts >> of the whole organism. The emotion *is* the state of a whole organism, >> in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave >> to someone. >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >> >> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts >> subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a >> physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they >> get quite another interpretation." >> >> The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the >> mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps >> that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system >> that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. >> >> (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, >> when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart >> that was broken but his stomach....) >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2pzDv2w1Q$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2rRpQN1Og$ >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 >> as well. >> >> One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to >> cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The >> German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the *Enc*, >> This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, >> on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, >> though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology of Spirit*. >> >> >> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English >> translation is here: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2rquVeDmA$ >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself >> composed of three parts: >> >> - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology >> - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and >> - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. >> >> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or >> editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into >> English, >> >> I would start with the 1930 version" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2q2dNzGfw$ >> >> - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. >> >> The 1817 version has >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2r8wNvNgQ$ >> >> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective >> Spirit. >> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the >> basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of >> thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will >> photocopy it and send it on. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those >> cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). >> It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with >> questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. >> >> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey >> mean when he says: >> >> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation >> of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >> >> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number >> refer to a page number or a section or what? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2pQz8WNsw$ >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2pzDv2w1Q$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2rRpQN1Og$ >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >> Associate Professor >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> >> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >> University >> >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2qcHyyPjw$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> Office: 2306 James Hall >> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >> Associate Professor >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> >> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >> University >> >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2qcHyyPjw$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> Office: 2306 James Hall >> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) >> Associate Professor >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> >> Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center >> Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping >> University >> >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2qcHyyPjw$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> Office: 2306 James Hall >> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> >> > > -- > Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center > Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping > University > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2qcHyyPjw$ > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Office: 2306 James Hall > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TgqlReBDrXxEpY4XRrhOqGXiAtm3aXbtY_dlNkvY-ykzJ_6taxqdN_rsrvFLe2qcHyyPjw$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 Office: 2306 James Hall 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200727/bc2c01b6/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Jul 28 04:25:26 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:25:26 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> <1b9a4d04-9de0-8705-65f1-508a23b88971@marxists.org> Message-ID: Having taken a moment to think about your question, Mike, for a change, I think I can clarify my response. The response cannot be an either-or answer. Do we judge an actor (movement, project, person, ...) by their means or by their end? by the journey or by the destination? by the means (tools, words, ...) used or by the object aimed at, by the process or the product. The answer has to be *both* for the same kind of reason that we see activity always in terms *dual stimulation*, not just immediate and not just mediated, but both. Every *thing* is, of course, also a *process*, in that every thing is in movement and change. Every process is also a product. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 25/07/2020 6:50 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Oh, I see: "if you want to know the mind of a cobbler, > then study the boots he has made." > > The focus on the object of activity to which Collingwood > directs our attention, should not, I think, be seen as > excluding understanding of the activity. He is saying: > don't look inside his head, look at what he is /doing/, > his object-oriented activity. True, there are different > ways of making boots of the same quality, and the concept > is includes /how/ the boot is produced as well as /what/ > was produced, > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 25/07/2020 12:48 pm, mike cole wrote: >> Why restrict ourselves to observing?the boot, Andy? Why >> not study the process of the boot's coming?into being >> historically and in contemporary activities?that bring boots >> into being? In psychology?a focus on products not >> processes is a constant, justified complaint of critical >> scholars I have been reading. >> What am I missing? >> mike >> >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 2:05 AM Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> Collingwood is great. Hard to get hold of work I think. >> >> And yes, /Geist /is an activity. Many writers of our >> day agree with that. >> >> andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 24/07/2020 6:28 pm, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: >>> Mind, Hegel and Collingwood >>> >>> The mind seems to be not so much that which thinks >>> as the thinking itself; it is not an active thing so >>> much? as an activity (Religion & Philosophy 1916 >>> p.100) -? if you want to know the mind of a cobbler, >>> then study the boots he has made >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> on behalf >>> of Andy Blunden >>> >>> *Sent:* 24 July 2020 05:04 >>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >>> >>> There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of >>> Spirit. It has almost innumerable grades of mind >>> between the indeterminate "feeling" which might >>> cause a new-born to cry without any kind of >>> awareness, up to political action to resolve the >>> social problem at the root of the "disturbance." All >>> these are states of a whole body and its relation to >>> its environment. Hegel does talk about "expulsion" >>> where are person takes action - shouting, sobbing, >>> .. - to relieve the feeling, a process which can be >>> more or less rational. But he does not have a mental >>> state over there and a body over there, or one >>> expressing itself in the other. Probably my analogy >>> of hand-waving was inappropriate. That's obviously >>> not the same as your hair standing on end when you >>> get a creepy feeling or the stomach ache which tells >>> you it's dinner time. >>> >>> andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The >>>> James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive >>>> something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles >>>> respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that >>>> happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be >>>> thinking of the male sexual response. >>>> >>>> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's >>>> anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky >>>> wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is >>>> "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state >>>> of?affairs?expressed in physiological changes in >>>> the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a >>>> change in the visceral/vascular state of >>>> affairs?expressed in a mental one. (For that very >>>> reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with >>>> Andy's waving analogy....) >>>> >>>> Spinoza?uses the term "affect" or >>>> "affection"?instead. It means more or less what it >>>> sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by >>>> the environment and vice versa. This can either >>>> increase or decrease the potential for a body >>>> for?activity. The problem is that in order to make >>>> this a theory of specifically human emotions, this >>>> activity has to include the "activity" of making >>>> meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT >>>> issue without slipping into psycho-physical >>>> parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) >>>> : >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual >>>> and a manifesto. >>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGDm_gZS6A$ >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGCRmaFf0g$ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> No, don't turn it around. The point is that >>>> organs are subordinate parts of the whole >>>> organism. The emotion /is/ the state of a whole >>>> organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a >>>> hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone. >>>> >>>> andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >>>>> >>>>> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are >>>>> treated merely as parts subservient to the >>>>> animal organism; but they form at the same >>>>> time a physical system for the expression of >>>>> mental states, and in this way they get quite >>>>> another interpretation." >>>>> >>>>> The only problem is the word "expression".?In >>>>> the James-Lange theory, the mental states are >>>>> the expression of the viscera and the >>>>> organs.?But perhaps that's what Hegel really >>>>> means here: the viscera and organs are a >>>>> system that expresses a state which we >>>>> interpret as an emotion. >>>>> >>>>> (I remember a dear?friend of mine getting a >>>>> messy divorce and remarking, when I worried >>>>> that he was losing a lot of weight, that it >>>>> wasn't his heart that was broken but his >>>>> stomach....) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGDm_gZS6A$ >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGCRmaFf0g$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If you're interested in s. 401, then >>>>> you'll probably be interested in 402 as well. >>>>> >>>>> One other possibility: The "official" way >>>>> of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the >>>>> page no. in the authoritative version of >>>>> /Hegel Werke/. The German word for "page" >>>>> is /Seite/, so you would say "S. 401" of >>>>> the /Enc/, This turns out also to be an >>>>> interesting passage of the Subjective >>>>> Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned >>>>> with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, >>>>> though in a much reduced form, not like in >>>>> the /Phenomenology of Spirit/. >>>>> >>>>> See p. 401 in the other attachment, >>>>> ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English >>>>> translation is here: >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGAs45u8ew$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third >>>>>> Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself >>>>>> composed of three parts: >>>>>> >>>>>> * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly >>>>>> taken as Psychology >>>>>> * Objective Spirit, which is commonly >>>>>> taken as Social Theory, and >>>>>> * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, >>>>>> religion, Science and Philosophy. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered >>>>>> paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or? >>>>>> editions, but these will be limited >>>>>> probably by those translated into English, >>>>>> >>>>>> I would start with the 1930 version" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGD3-eI90A$ >>>>>> >>>>>> - a very early stage in the development >>>>>> of mental life, or. >>>>>> >>>>>> The 1817 version has >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGBiiX5IPA$ >>>>>> >>>>>> - this version puts s. 401 at the >>>>>> beginning of a version of Objective Spirit. >>>>>> >>>>>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to >>>>>> it written by his students on the basis >>>>>> of Hegel's lectures which is a long >>>>>> discourse on the development of thinking >>>>>> from sensation. I am thinking this is >>>>>> what you mean. I will photocopy it and >>>>>> send it on. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's >>>>>>> "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those >>>>>>> cartoon books that are so popular here >>>>>>> in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's >>>>>>> not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will >>>>>>> have a lot of pictures with questions >>>>>>> and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather >>>>>>> difficult text. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We've got to figure out the text first. >>>>>>> For example, what does John Dewey mean >>>>>>> when he says: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "On the historical side, it may be worth >>>>>>> noting that a crude anticipation of >>>>>>> James' theory is found in Hegel's >>>>>>> Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des >>>>>>> Geistes? If so, does the number refer to >>>>>>> a page number or a section or what? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGA5DkBRwg$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: >>>>>>> A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGDm_gZS6A$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: >>>>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ >>>>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGCRmaFf0g$ >>>>>>> >>>>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> IAngelus Novus >> >> >> The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in >> 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 >> >> --------------------------------------------- >> >> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGAgdHvzcQ$ >> >> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >> >> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu >> . >> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> . >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200728/b4990546/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jul 28 10:18:04 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:18:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> <1b9a4d04-9de0-8705-65f1-508a23b88971@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hi Andy et al - I often start from your formula that "Every *thing* is, of course, also a *process*, in that every thing is in movement and change. ergo, there needs to be time in the unit of analysis.. Seems like you also need scale, or some such term...... This is illustrated by the powers of ten video that always flashes past my mind's eye when this discussion comes up. The big challenge, always, is to be able to use these concepts as lenses through which to look at the processes of learning and development that people pay us to do something about. mike On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 4:28 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > Having taken a moment to think about your question, Mike, for a change, I > think I can clarify my response. > > The response cannot be an either-or answer. > > Do we judge an actor (movement, project, person, ...) by their means or by > their end? by the journey or by the destination? by the means (tools, > words, ...) used or by the object aimed at, by the process or the product. > The answer has to be *both* for the same kind of reason that we see > activity always in terms *dual stimulation*, not just immediate and not > just mediated, but both. > > Every *thing* is, of course, also a *process*, in that every thing is in > movement and change. Every process is also a product. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 25/07/2020 6:50 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Oh, I see: "if you want to know the mind of a cobbler, then study the > boots he has made." > > The focus on the object of activity to which Collingwood directs our > attention, should not, I think, be seen as excluding understanding of the > activity. He is saying: don't look inside his head, look at what he is > *doing*, his object-oriented activity. True, there are different ways of > making boots of the same quality, and the concept is includes *how* the > boot is produced as well as *what* was produced, > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > On 25/07/2020 12:48 pm, mike cole wrote: > > Why restrict ourselves to observing the boot, Andy? Why not study the > process of the boot's coming into being historically and in contemporary > activities that bring boots > into being? In psychology a focus on products not processes is a constant, > justified complaint of critical scholars I have been reading. > What am I missing? > mike > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 2:05 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Collingwood is great. Hard to get hold of work I think. >> >> And yes, *Geist *is an activity. Many writers of our day agree with that. >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 24/07/2020 6:28 pm, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: >> >> Mind, Hegel and Collingwood >> >> The mind seems to be not so much that which thinks as the thinking >> itself; it is not an active thing so much as an activity (Religion & >> Philosophy 1916 p.100) - if you want to know the mind of a cobbler, >> then study the boots he has made >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* 24 July 2020 05:04 >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >> >> >> There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of Spirit. It has >> almost innumerable grades of mind between the indeterminate "feeling" which >> might cause a new-born to cry without any kind of awareness, up to >> political action to resolve the social problem at the root of the >> "disturbance." All these are states of a whole body and its relation to its >> environment. Hegel does talk about "expulsion" where are person takes >> action - shouting, sobbing, .. - to relieve the feeling, a process which >> can be more or less rational. But he does not have a mental state over >> there and a body over there, or one expressing itself in the other. >> Probably my analogy of hand-waving was inappropriate. That's obviously not >> the same as your hair standing on end when you get a creepy feeling or the >> stomach ache which tells you it's dinner time. >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The James-Lange theory is >> what it is: you perceive something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles >> respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, at >> any rate, seems to be thinking of the male sexual response. >> >> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's anticipation of the theory is >> crude. Vygotsky wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is >> "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state of affairs expressed in >> physiological changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a >> change in the visceral/vascular state of affairs expressed in a mental one. >> (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with Andy's >> waving analogy....) >> >> Spinoza uses the term "affect" or "affection" instead. It means more or >> less what it sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by the >> environment and vice versa. This can either increase or decrease the >> potential for a body for activity. The problem is that in order to make >> this a theory of specifically human emotions, this activity has to include >> the "activity" of making meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT >> issue without slipping into psycho-physical parallelism. (Halliday can, >> though....) >> : >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj-JpLENRQ$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_wh9ODbw$ >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> No, don't turn it around. The point is that organs are subordinate parts >> of the whole organism. The emotion *is* the state of a whole organism, >> in particular, a mental state. Like a hand expresses a feeling when we wave >> to someone. >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >> >> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are treated merely as parts >> subservient to the animal organism; but they form at the same time a >> physical system for the expression of mental states, and in this way they >> get quite another interpretation." >> >> The only problem is the word "expression". In the James-Lange theory, the >> mental states are the expression of the viscera and the organs. But perhaps >> that's what Hegel really means here: the viscera and organs are a system >> that expresses a state which we interpret as an emotion. >> >> (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a messy divorce and remarking, >> when I worried that he was losing a lot of weight, that it wasn't his heart >> that was broken but his stomach....) >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj-JpLENRQ$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_wh9ODbw$ >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> If you're interested in s. 401, then you'll probably be interested in 402 >> as well. >> >> One other possibility: The "official" way of citing Hegel nowadays is to >> cite the page no. in the authoritative version of *Hegel Werke*. The >> German word for "page" is *Seite*, so you would say "S. 401" of the *Enc*, >> This turns out also to be an interesting passage of the Subjective Spirit, >> on Self-consciousness, concerned with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, >> though in a much reduced form, not like in the *Phenomenology of Spirit*. >> >> >> See p. 401 in the other attachment, ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English >> translation is here: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_JmsvdIQ$ >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself >> composed of three parts: >> >> - Subjective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Psychology >> - Objective Spirit, which is commonly taken as Social Theory, and >> - Absolute Spirit, which covers Art, religion, Science and Philosophy. >> >> The Encyclopaedia has numbered paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or >> editions, but these will be limited probably by those translated into >> English, >> >> I would start with the 1930 version" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_H1JsdVQ$ >> >> - a very early stage in the development of mental life, or. >> >> The 1817 version has >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_1XF0IiQ$ >> >> - this version puts s. 401 at the beginning of a version of Objective >> Spirit. >> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to it written by his students on the >> basis of Hegel's lectures which is a long discourse on the development of >> thinking from sensation. I am thinking this is what you mean. I will >> photocopy it and send it on. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those >> cartoon books that are so popular here in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). >> It's not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will have a lot of pictures with >> questions and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather difficult text. >> >> We've got to figure out the text first. For example, what does John Dewey >> mean when he says: >> >> "On the historical side, it may be worth noting that a crude anticipation >> of James' theory is found in Hegel's Philosophie des Geistes, 401."? >> >> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des Geistes? If so, does the number >> refer to a page number or a section or what? >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj8W04fFOA$ >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >> Outlines, Spring 2020 >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj-JpLENRQ$ >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* * >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*" >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_wh9ODbw$ >> >> >> >> > > -- > > I[image: Angelus Novus] > > > The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to > Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 > > --------------------------------------------- > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_LG7Sn2A$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > > -- I[image: Angelus Novus] The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 --------------------------------------------- Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Xf5dq-zyRXAVtrDY3G4uI0uXpUIg3aHwWiGAOzanHBOszr37Xyia_Ln-k9JHsj_LG7Sn2A$ Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu. Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200728/24e5391f/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Jul 28 18:56:20 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 11:56:20 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? In-Reply-To: References: <1f6648a0-1fe9-7f4a-965b-b4ac5c1fbfe1@marxists.org> <6874c92d-2955-180d-bfe0-fdc533678010@marxists.org> <1b9a4d04-9de0-8705-65f1-508a23b88971@marxists.org> Message-ID: Mike: "ergo, there needs to be time in the unit of analysis..." I see it differently. As I see it, "Ergo, there needs to be a contradiction in the unit of analysis." Hegel calls this a "concrete individuality." (/conkrete Einzelheit/) Grasping a process entails also grasping it as a "simple something" (/das Einfache/). The very word "unit" suggests this. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 29/07/2020 3:18 am, mike cole wrote: > Hi Andy et al - > I? often start from your formula that? "Every *thing*?is, > of course, also a *process*, in that every thing is in > movement and change. > > ergo, there needs to be time in the unit of analysis.. > > Seems like you also need scale, or some such term......? > This is illustrated by the powers of ten video that > always?flashes?past > my mind's eye when this discussion comes up. > > The big challenge, always, is to be able to use these > concepts as lenses through?which to look at the processes > of learning and development > that people pay us to do something about. > > mike > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 4:28 AM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > Having taken a moment to think about your question, > Mike, for a change, I think I can clarify my response. > > The response cannot be an either-or answer. > > Do we judge an actor (movement, project, person, ...) > by their means or by their end? by the journey or by > the destination? by the means (tools, words, ...) used > or by the object aimed at, by the process or the > product. The answer has to be *both* for the same kind > of reason that we see activity always in terms *dual > stimulation*, not just immediate and not just > mediated, but both. > > Every *thing* is, of course, also a *process*, in that > every thing is in movement and change. Every process > is also a product. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 25/07/2020 6:50 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Oh, I see: "if you want to know the mind of a >> cobbler, then study the boots he has made." >> >> The focus on the object of activity to which >> Collingwood directs our attention, should not, I >> think, be seen as excluding understanding of the >> activity. He is saying: don't look inside his head, >> look at what he is /doing/, his object-oriented >> activity. True, there are different ways of making >> boots of the same quality, and the concept is >> includes /how/ the boot is produced as well as /what/ >> was produced, >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 25/07/2020 12:48 pm, mike cole wrote: >>> Why restrict ourselves to observing?the boot, Andy? >>> Why not study the process of the boot's coming?into >>> being historically and in contemporary >>> activities?that bring boots >>> into being? In psychology?a focus on products not >>> processes is a constant, justified complaint of >>> critical scholars I have been reading. >>> What am I missing? >>> mike >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 2:05 AM Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Collingwood is great. Hard to get hold of work I >>> think. >>> >>> And yes, /Geist /is an activity. Many writers of >>> our day agree with that. >>> >>> andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> >>> Home Page >>> >>> >>> On 24/07/2020 6:28 pm, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: >>>> Mind, Hegel and Collingwood >>>> >>>> The mind seems to be not so much that which >>>> thinks as the thinking itself; it is not an >>>> active thing so much? as an activity (Religion >>>> & Philosophy 1916 p.100) -? if you want to know >>>> the mind of a cobbler, then study the boots he >>>> has made >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> on >>>> behalf of Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> *Sent:* 24 July 2020 05:04 >>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes? >>>> >>>> There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's >>>> Philosophy of Spirit. It has almost innumerable >>>> grades of mind between the indeterminate >>>> "feeling" which might cause a new-born to cry >>>> without any kind of awareness, up to political >>>> action to resolve the social problem at the >>>> root of the "disturbance." All these are states >>>> of a whole body and its relation to its >>>> environment. Hegel does talk about "expulsion" >>>> where are person takes action - shouting, >>>> sobbing, .. - to relieve the feeling, a process >>>> which can be more or less rational. But he does >>>> not have a mental state over there and a body >>>> over there, or one expressing itself in the >>>> other. Probably my analogy of hand-waving was >>>> inappropriate. That's obviously not the same as >>>> your hair standing on end when you get a creepy >>>> feeling or the stomach ache which tells you >>>> it's dinner time. >>>> >>>> andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>> Well, it's not me turning it around, of >>>>> course. The James-Lange theory is what it is: >>>>> you perceive something, your viscera or >>>>> vasomotor muscles respond, and the emotion is >>>>> the feeling of that happening to you. Lange, >>>>> at any rate, seems to be thinking of the male >>>>> sexual response. >>>>> >>>>> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's >>>>> anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky >>>>> wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion >>>>> is "expressed". An emotion is not a mental >>>>> state of?affairs?expressed in physiological >>>>> changes in the viscera/vasomotor muscles or >>>>> contrariwise a change in the visceral/vascular >>>>> state of affairs?expressed in a mental one. >>>>> (For that very reason, I think that Vygotsky >>>>> wouldn't agree with Andy's waving analogy....) >>>>> >>>>> Spinoza?uses the term "affect" or >>>>> "affection"?instead. It means more or less >>>>> what it sounds like: the way in which a body >>>>> is affected by the environment and vice versa. >>>>> This can either increase or decrease the >>>>> potential for a body for?activity. The problem >>>>> is that in order to make this a theory of >>>>> specifically human emotions, this activity has >>>>> to include the "activity" of making meanings, >>>>> and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT issue >>>>> without slipping into psycho-physical >>>>> parallelism. (Halliday can, though....) >>>>> : >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A >>>>> manual and a manifesto. >>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcSNgVAbOw$ >>>>> >>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S. >>>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcQ0bXPRvA$ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> No, don't turn it around. The point is >>>>> that organs are subordinate parts of the >>>>> whole organism. The emotion /is/ the state >>>>> of a whole organism, in particular, a >>>>> mental state. Like a hand expresses a >>>>> feeling when we wave to someone. >>>>> >>>>> andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>> >>>>> Home Page >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>>> Thanks, Andy--this is it! >>>>>> >>>>>> "In physiology the viscera and the organs >>>>>> are treated merely as parts subservient >>>>>> to the animal organism; but they form at >>>>>> the same time a physical system for the >>>>>> expression of mental states, and in this >>>>>> way they get quite another interpretation." >>>>>> >>>>>> The only problem is the word >>>>>> "expression".?In the James-Lange theory, >>>>>> the mental states are the expression of >>>>>> the viscera and the organs.?But perhaps >>>>>> that's what Hegel really means here: the >>>>>> viscera and organs are a system that >>>>>> expresses a state which we interpret as >>>>>> an emotion. >>>>>> >>>>>> (I remember a dear?friend of mine getting >>>>>> a messy divorce and remarking, when I >>>>>> worried that he was losing a lot of >>>>>> weight, that it wasn't his heart that was >>>>>> broken but his stomach....) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>> >>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: >>>>>> A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcSNgVAbOw$ >>>>>> >>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: >>>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ >>>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcQ0bXPRvA$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy >>>>>> Blunden >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> If you're interested in s. 401, then >>>>>> you'll probably be interested in 402 >>>>>> as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> One other possibility: The "official" >>>>>> way of citing Hegel nowadays is to >>>>>> cite the page no. in the >>>>>> authoritative version of /Hegel >>>>>> Werke/. The German word for "page" is >>>>>> /Seite/, so you would say "S. 401" of >>>>>> the /Enc/, This turns out also to be >>>>>> an interesting passage of the >>>>>> Subjective Spirit, on >>>>>> Self-consciousness, concerned with >>>>>> the infamous Master-Slave dialectic, >>>>>> though in a much reduced form, not >>>>>> like in the /Phenomenology of Spirit/. >>>>>> >>>>>> See p. 401 in the other attachment, >>>>>> ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English >>>>>> translation is here: >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcSW_Y7OQA$ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the >>>>>>> Third Part of the Encyclopaedia, >>>>>>> itself composed of three parts: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> * Subjective Spirit, which is >>>>>>> commonly taken as Psychology >>>>>>> * Objective Spirit, which is >>>>>>> commonly taken as Social Theory, and >>>>>>> * Absolute Spirit, which covers >>>>>>> Art, religion, Science and >>>>>>> Philosophy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered >>>>>>> paragraphs. These do vary between 2 >>>>>>> or editions, but these will be >>>>>>> limited probably by those translated >>>>>>> into English, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would start with the 1930 version" >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcSRJUkNJA$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - a very early stage in the >>>>>>> development of mental life, or. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 1817 version has >>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcTQGi2NMg$ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - this version puts s. 401 at the >>>>>>> beginning of a version of Objective >>>>>>> Spirit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note >>>>>>> to it written by his students on the >>>>>>> basis of Hegel's lectures which is a >>>>>>> long discourse on the development of >>>>>>> thinking from sensation. I am >>>>>>> thinking this is what you mean. I >>>>>>> will photocopy it and send it on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Home Page >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's >>>>>>>> "Teaching on Emotion" into one of >>>>>>>> those cartoon books that are so >>>>>>>> popular here in Korea (e.g. the >>>>>>>> "Why?" series). It's not Vygotsky >>>>>>>> for dummies, but it will have a lot >>>>>>>> of pictures with questions and >>>>>>>> answers alongside Vygotsky's rather >>>>>>>> difficult text. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've got to figure out the text >>>>>>>> first. For example, what does John >>>>>>>> Dewey mean when he says: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "On the historical side, it may be >>>>>>>> worth noting that a crude >>>>>>>> anticipation of James' theory is >>>>>>>> found in Hegel's Philosophie des >>>>>>>> Geistes, 401."? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie >>>>>>>> des Geistes? If so, does the number >>>>>>>> refer to a page number or a section >>>>>>>> or what? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcT1MBSP5A$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in >>>>>>>> memoriam: A manual and a manifesto. >>>>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020 >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcSNgVAbOw$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai >>>>>>>> Veresov: /L.S. Vygotsky's >>>>>>>> Pedological Works/ /Volume One: >>>>>>>> Foundations of Pedology/" >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcQ0bXPRvA$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> IAngelus Novus >>> >>> >>> The Angel's View of History is looking as >>> plausible in 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & >>> Klee in 1940 >>> >>> --------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcRmr_1k0A$ >>> >>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com >>> >>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu >>> . >>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >>> . >>> >>> >>> > > > -- > > > IAngelus Novus > > > The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in > 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940 > > --------------------------------------------- > > Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QzMlCZx70ZxnkyT1HzbSwNk_bmzINWj07m8S5jQ3hXxb3w23Q7d6XCeqZWe9YcRmr_1k0A$ > > Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com > > Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu > . > Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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