[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Thu Jan 16 03:46:29 PST 2020
Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He
wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the
subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial
control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or
personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant.
Now there /is /an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim.
Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of
controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an
emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in,
on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to
control /their own/ mind. But this is not clear from the
above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing
on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors
suggest that there were some blind spots there.
Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own
purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social
Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement
literature written by and for activist, which is usually
narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above
sense "technic" rather than "epistemology."
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Hegel for Social Movements <https://brill.com/view/title/54574>
Home Page <https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>
> I don’t know, the sense I get is that he was really
> criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from
> what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should
> be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can
> use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One
> hint I get from the piece is his mention of using
> practical psychology to determine whether people should be
> tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also
> against the rising use of intelligence tests as a
> psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part
> I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and
> Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and
> practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be
> detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send
> psychology towards the types of practical models of the
> physical sciences where it did not belong, something that
> I think has plagued the field since. At least from my
> reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it
> confusing that Musterberg by following James was also
> grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that
> people behave in certain ways because they were human.
> Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to
> reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a
> precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to
> merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not
> falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want
> to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he
> definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence
> testers who combined “empirical” and practical psychology
> for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas
> Teo’s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit
> in here).
>
> Michael
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Jussi
> Silvonen
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM
> *To:* mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>; eXtended Mind, Culture,
> Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>
> Mike,
>
> take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can
> find PDF files of most of Münsterberg's books there. It is
> obvious, that Müsterberg had a great influence on LSV, at
> least in his theory's instrumental phase.
>
> JusSi
>
> ----------------
> Jussi Silvonen
> Dosentti
> Itä-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus
> Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto
> PL 111 (Metria)
> 80101 Joensuu
> ------------------
> https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home
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> https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen__;!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIREamwTv$>
> http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/__;!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIRbRK5sy$>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Lähettäjä:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> käyttäjän mike
> cole <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> puolesta
> *Lähetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56
> *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>
> In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply
> immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV
> sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics"
> in work, check his book out on google and search the term.
> For example,
>
> Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a
> causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is
> related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to
> the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to
> the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354)
>
> It would be interesting to stage a discussion
> bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more
> to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020?
>
> And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out!
>
> mike
>
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael
> <glassman.13@osu.edu <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>> wrote:
>
> I don’t know, I read it that he was criticizing
> Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics,
> which I guess was the title of Munsterberg’s last
> book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking
> Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist
> trap. Maybe that’s what you are saying Andy.
>
> Michael
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> *On Behalf
> Of *Andy Blunden
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>
> This is what I was looking for:
>
> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.marxists.org*2Farchive*2Fvygotsky*2Fworks*2Fcrisis*2Fpsycri12.htm*p1207__*3BIw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkzm3Ep0s*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412462637&sdata=OBOvR6IPfkMeN4eKIcrZXz5aDBjX1t5LB6LokEBXrDg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIXDWyWWT$>
>
> It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the
> fundamental problems of psychology which he objected
> to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice
> provided all the solutions to these problems. "The
> goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in
> concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but */in one word –
> psychotechnics/*, i.e., a scientific theory which
> would lead to the subordination and mastery of the
> mind, to the artificial control of behaviour."
>
> Thanks all.
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk8iLcReg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412472638&sdata=hBx7qflf4m9p8uTE*2B4alLHqD4n1aMpxrwmV7dWRuyqc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIZm3eJhg$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk7OSM06Y*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412472638&sdata=ZI48nZtfz6lMy2*2BE6nm84IFOiB2DeCOirmEhCw3o0qg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIVQug3id$>
>
>
> On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
>
> But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version
> of human resource management. The idea was to
> select particular "types" for particular jobs. It
> wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany
> (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the
> selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In
> China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on
> making sure that people suited the professions
> chosen for them, as education was a very scarce
> resource.
>
> Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a
> colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his
> essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is
> written with that perspective in mind. And it was
> at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was
> asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to
> aid in psychotechnic selection.
>
> Vygotsky said no.
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of
> Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i
>
> in /Mind Culture and Activity/
>
> /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=yllUDzZhK8*2BCHvi8HXvoxP457gXRNAa8VYC*2FPC4PQtc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIWQuZxxv$>/
>
> Some free e-prints available at:
>
> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Feprint*2FSK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY*2Ffull*3Ftarget*3D10.1080*10749039.2020.1711775__*3BLw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkmu8ynwE*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=6*2B8dfqrBCex1zj*2Fmqw0i5RKwp0LGBvcc1zZjt*2BjGEjk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIUbsFhIY$>
>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S.
> Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One:
> Foundations of Pedology"
>
> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.springer.com*2Fgp*2Fbook*2F9789811505270__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkiawojtY*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=PDdGgIgXqxWaVkzWvkE*2B24nBKC6nX6Vv*2Bq1mROYzdMk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QISHX4tYT$>
>
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole
> <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:
>
> Might you be looking for “psychotechnics” Andy?
>
> Mike
>
> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg
> <dkellogg60@gmail.com
> <mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Andy--
>
> That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to
> me.
>
> Yes, he refers to art as the "social
> technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art).
> Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle
> Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had
> any affect on breathing rates. But as far
> as I know he had nothing to do with
> Luria's work on lie detectors (in The
> Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even
> rather skeptical of Luria's work on
> optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples
>
> . Remember, this is the guy who denied
> that a general psychology could ever cut
> itself off from practice and vice versa
> (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who
> rejected the idea that thinking is speech
> with the sound turned off (Thinking and
> Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a
> technology opposed to an epistemology?
> What would that mean? A hand without a brain?
>
> Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither
> the hand nor the brain left to itself can
> do much." Francis Bacon, /Novum Organum/
> (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2.
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
> New Article: 'Commentary: On the
> originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i
>
> in /Mind Culture and Activity/
>
> /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=BP3oUS62Il2ysAn5qg8wmdRgzXL88z*2FStKI*2Bh6VwUKw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIW8z2T_v$>/
>
> Some free e-prints available at:
>
> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Feprint*2FSK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY*2Ffull*3Ftarget*3D10.1080*10749039.2020.1711775__*3BLw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkmu8ynwE*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412502616&sdata=sDCVNon8FCfDczqUlefwc6O6XRxMu7kgYtTX5KhfPSk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIUEJFvpx$>
>
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy
> Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
> There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks
> about psychology as a technology as
> opposed to (for example) an
> epistemology. Can anyone point me to
> where this observation is to be found.
> I can find it with my search engines.
> I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention
> of the lie-detector has been mentioned
> in this connection.
>
> Andy
>
> --
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk8iLcReg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412502616&sdata=q5ZRtmU7n76mwg2owaHdn8LcNDmLEHxREaF04n263AQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QITY6oecw$>
> Home Page
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>
>
> --
>
> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a
> mere game of “as if”, therein lies its true
> function and its potential for effecting
> change - R. Ellison
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
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> For a narrative history of the research of
> LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2Flchcautobio.ucsd.edu__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkRAeC65Q*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412522609&sdata=t2P5tYIsk3GCrG8v5UtA9qX28ejZW*2BnuLzQfRupbPL8*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIfoqvbhu$>.
>
>
> --
>
> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of
> “as if”, therein lies its true function and its potential
> for effecting change - R. Ellison
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself
> and other members of LCHC, visit
>
> lchc.ucsd.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchc.ucsd.edu&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412522609&sdata=7SppP1Yvcb2dKzCKoZVcsxSc317*2FVcl6Kpfghe0O2Hg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIbLpkCwJ$>.
> For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit
> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchcautobio.ucsd.edu&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412532604&sdata=F8KGSR10*2BDM*2BkgdBt*2FCc9Nobo9vvGTCOGRRz6g9P*2FeY*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIReAJOUT$>.
>
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