From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jan 3 03:04:17 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 20:04:17 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 Message-ID: This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea of what you (or your library) will be paying for. https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 But this is free! https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf and so is this: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article with Fang Li: "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial meta-stability" Text & Talk https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200103/71e091bb/attachment.html From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Fri Jan 3 04:01:17 2020 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 09:01:17 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material presenting another unit of analysis. Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? Wagner On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg wrote: > This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on the > free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea of > what you (or your library) will be paying for. > > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: > > > https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 > > > But this is free! > > > https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf > > > and so is this: > > > https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article with Fang Li: > "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial > meta-stability" > Text & Talk > > > https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200103/8b3e0ec2/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jan 3 14:04:56 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 07:04:56 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wagner-- Nikolai and I did make all the material which we ourselves wrote available for free. All you have to do is click the free previews and the front and endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free previews will tell you, in summary form, what the actual lecture says, and you can decide whether it's worth the money to be able to cite chapter and verse. But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was just getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their Gestalist books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet publishing house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that published the first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt and has disappeared without a trace!) b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original sitting next to them). d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, according to the lawyers.) e) Springer stocks libraries. I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the internet. a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on this). b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain these days. c) It's gonna happen anyway. Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too might just be hungry. Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer was willing to take a chance and say yes. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article with Fang Li: "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial meta-stability" Text & Talk https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material > presenting another unit of analysis. > > Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger > corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? > > Wagner > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg wrote: > >> This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on the >> free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea of >> what you (or your library) will be paying for. >> >> >> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >> >> >> I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: >> >> >> https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 >> >> >> But this is free! >> >> >> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >> >> >> and so is this: >> >> >> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New article with Fang Li: >> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >> meta-stability" >> Text & Talk >> >> >> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200104/24d53a82/attachment.html From jody.hyatt@gmail.com Fri Jan 3 16:23:37 2020 From: jody.hyatt@gmail.com (Jody Cooper) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 19:23:37 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry to be a bother, but I tried to order a hardcopy book. I registered with Springer, successfully I believe. But they won't let me put the book in my cart and buy it. Maybe I'll have to buy an ebook? Any suggestions? On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 5:11 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Wagner-- > > Nikolai and I did make all the material which we ourselves wrote available > for free. All you have to do is click the free previews and the front and > endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free previews will tell you, in > summary form, what the actual lecture says, and you can decide whether it's > worth the money to be able to cite chapter and verse. > > But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. > > a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was just > getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their Gestalist > books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet publishing > house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that published the > first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt and has > disappeared without a trace!) > b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia > (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) > c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode > for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, > Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is > too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original > sitting next to them). > d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical > research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, > according to the lawyers.) > e) Springer stocks libraries. > > I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the > internet. > > a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on > this). > b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain > these days. > c) It's gonna happen anyway. > > Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one > chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too > might just be hungry. > > Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer > was willing to take a chance and say yes. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article with Fang Li: > "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial > meta-stability" > Text & Talk > > > https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml > > > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > >> We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material >> presenting another unit of analysis. >> >> Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger >> corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? >> >> Wagner >> >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on >>> the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea >>> of what you (or your library) will be paying for. >>> >>> >>> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >>> >>> >>> I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: >>> >>> >>> https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 >>> >>> >>> But this is free! >>> >>> >>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>> >>> >>> and so is this: >>> >>> >>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New article with Fang Li: >>> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >>> meta-stability" >>> Text & Talk >>> >>> >>> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200103/d0d29ed4/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Jan 4 03:46:40 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 20:46:40 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No bother at all, Jody. I forwarded your note where it counts, and now my own basket, at least, fills up like a charm. (Thanks for your quick response, by the way; it will increase our chance of getting a Springer contract for "Pedology of the Adolescent"!) , David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article with Fang Li: "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial meta-stability" Text & Talk https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 9:26 AM Jody Cooper wrote: > Sorry to be a bother, but I tried to order a hardcopy book. I registered > with Springer, successfully I believe. But they won't let me put the book > in my cart and buy it. Maybe I'll have to buy an ebook? Any suggestions? > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 5:11 PM David Kellogg wrote: > >> Wagner-- >> >> Nikolai and I did make all the material which we >> ourselves wrote available for free. All you have to do is click the free >> previews and the front and endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free >> previews will tell you, in summary form, what the actual lecture says, and >> you can decide whether it's worth the money to be able to cite chapter and >> verse. >> >> But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. >> >> a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was >> just getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their >> Gestalist books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet >> publishing house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that >> published the first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt >> and has disappeared without a trace!) >> b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia >> (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) >> c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode >> for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, >> Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is >> too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original >> sitting next to them). >> d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical >> research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, >> according to the lawyers.) >> e) Springer stocks libraries. >> >> I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the >> internet. >> >> a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on >> this). >> b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain >> these days. >> c) It's gonna happen anyway. >> >> Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one >> chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too >> might just be hungry. >> >> Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer >> was willing to take a chance and say yes. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New article with Fang Li: >> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >> meta-stability" >> Text & Talk >> >> >> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < >> wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material >>> presenting another unit of analysis. >>> >>> Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger >>> corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? >>> >>> Wagner >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on >>>> the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea >>>> of what you (or your library) will be paying for. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 >>>> >>>> >>>> But this is free! >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> and so is this: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New article with Fang Li: >>>> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >>>> meta-stability" >>>> Text & Talk >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200104/687bb2b1/attachment.html From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Sat Jan 4 05:41:44 2020 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 10:41:44 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Kellog, I deeply admire your work, along with Professor Veresov and Professor Kravtsova. Really. If this looked like a personal attack, please know it was not. I myself published my paper on a Journal by SAGE Publishing in 2016 (not publishing much since Brazilian academia now is almost dead). I know how this market works: We work for free (writing, revising and editing) but get published and they make lots of money selling with overpricing to libraries. I read some opinions stating that this publishing model more hinders than helps science. And does copyright (not authorship) makes any sense in a Cultural-Historical framework? Disney changed the copyright laws to protect its assets many times (the irony is that they made fame and money with public domain material). And you point out another big problem today in Academia: how to grade published materials? With more and more super narrow fields the "double-blind review" is just a label and does not work. We all know the problems of evaluating a paper or journal by the number of quotations. The quote was to criticize or to support? How many of the quotes are from the same "circle"? Yeah, I know, we have bills to pay, we live in a publish or perish culture, Universities do not have good quality science as their main focus, the spread of information is not interesting for our capitalist society model and so on. What can we do to change this? In what way? Open Journals? Sci-Hub? Private sharing? Isn't produce a paper a "production"? Should not we change it? Again: I deeply admire all the efforts to make Vygotsky's works available in some way, but is there any other way? Wagner On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 7:11 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Wagner-- > > Nikolai and I did make all the material which we ourselves wrote available > for free. All you have to do is click the free previews and the front and > endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free previews will tell you, in > summary form, what the actual lecture says, and you can decide whether it's > worth the money to be able to cite chapter and verse. > > But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. > > a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was just > getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their Gestalist > books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet publishing > house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that published the > first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt and has > disappeared without a trace!) > b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia > (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) > c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode > for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, > Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is > too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original > sitting next to them). > d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical > research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, > according to the lawyers.) > e) Springer stocks libraries. > > I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the > internet. > > a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on > this). > b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain > these days. > c) It's gonna happen anyway. > > Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one > chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too > might just be hungry. > > Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer > was willing to take a chance and say yes. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article with Fang Li: > "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial > meta-stability" > Text & Talk > > > https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml > > > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > >> We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material >> presenting another unit of analysis. >> >> Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger >> corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? >> >> Wagner >> >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on >>> the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea >>> of what you (or your library) will be paying for. >>> >>> >>> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >>> >>> >>> I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: >>> >>> >>> https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 >>> >>> >>> But this is free! >>> >>> >>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>> >>> >>> and so is this: >>> >>> >>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New article with Fang Li: >>> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >>> meta-stability" >>> Text & Talk >>> >>> >>> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200104/6ee37c46/attachment.html From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Sat Jan 4 06:13:21 2020 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 11:13:21 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some ideas to change the way we publish in science: W can use an Open Source platform like "Matrix" (https://matrix.org/), connecting all researchers and institutions. Every researcher would have an account in this decentralized network (something like the diaspora network). There we can maintain a blog and "publish" papers. The papers use "tags" or "hyperlinks" to mark quotations, also the kind of tag or hyperlink indicates what the quote is, like a critique, data from another source, support the other material, and so on (positive, negative and neutral). People in the network are notified by the publishing of that paper by "following" the researcher, the department, the institution or tags (the keywords) much like how already happen in for-profit sites like Academia.edu and Researchgate, and can comment on the whole paper or segments, and give their evaluation. Search engines can filter the most commented, most quoted, most "supported" and so on, i.e., the paper is evaluated by its contents and not the place of publishing. Journals would do a very important "curator" job, selecting papers to highlight them, to discuss a certain topic and so on. Books can be made available in "Print on Demand" for libraries interested in them, with a QR code or something like that to the "evaluation" of the book at the network. Crazy ideas? maybe. But it is a beginning. Wagner On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 10:41 AM Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Dear Kellog, > > I deeply admire your work, along with Professor Veresov and Professor > Kravtsova. Really. If this looked like a personal attack, please know it > was not. I myself published my paper on a Journal by SAGE Publishing in > 2016 (not publishing much since Brazilian academia now is almost dead). I > know how this market works: We work for free (writing, revising and > editing) but get published and they make lots of money selling with > overpricing to libraries. > > I read some opinions stating that this publishing model more hinders than > helps science. And does copyright (not authorship) makes any sense in a > Cultural-Historical framework? > > Disney changed the copyright laws to protect its assets many times (the > irony is that they made fame and money with public domain material). > > And you point out another big problem today in Academia: how to grade > published materials? With more and more super narrow fields the > "double-blind review" is just a label and does not work. We all know the > problems of evaluating a paper or journal by the number of quotations. The > quote was to criticize or to support? How many of the quotes are from the > same "circle"? > > Yeah, I know, we have bills to pay, we live in a publish or perish > culture, Universities do not have good quality science as their main focus, > the spread of information is not interesting for our capitalist society > model and so on. > > What can we do to change this? In what way? Open Journals? Sci-Hub? > Private sharing? > > Isn't produce a paper a "production"? Should not we change it? > > Again: I deeply admire all the efforts to make Vygotsky's works available > in some way, but is there any other way? > > Wagner > > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 7:11 PM David Kellogg wrote: > >> Wagner-- >> >> Nikolai and I did make all the material which we >> ourselves wrote available for free. All you have to do is click the free >> previews and the front and endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free >> previews will tell you, in summary form, what the actual lecture says, and >> you can decide whether it's worth the money to be able to cite chapter and >> verse. >> >> But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. >> >> a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was >> just getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their >> Gestalist books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet >> publishing house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that >> published the first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt >> and has disappeared without a trace!) >> b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia >> (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) >> c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode >> for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, >> Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is >> too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original >> sitting next to them). >> d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical >> research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, >> according to the lawyers.) >> e) Springer stocks libraries. >> >> I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the >> internet. >> >> a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on >> this). >> b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain >> these days. >> c) It's gonna happen anyway. >> >> Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one >> chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too >> might just be hungry. >> >> Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer >> was willing to take a chance and say yes. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New article with Fang Li: >> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >> meta-stability" >> Text & Talk >> >> >> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < >> wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material >>> presenting another unit of analysis. >>> >>> Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger >>> corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? >>> >>> Wagner >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on >>>> the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea >>>> of what you (or your library) will be paying for. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 >>>> >>>> >>>> But this is free! >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> and so is this: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New article with Fang Li: >>>> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >>>> meta-stability" >>>> Text & Talk >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200104/adc57eeb/attachment.html From Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch Sat Jan 4 07:58:39 2020 From: Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch (PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 15:58:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <67F02936-548C-4CEE-8995-A436F75DE4EA@unine.ch> Dear David, Dear Andy, Andy's publications in open access are so useful. Without disclosing private details nor entering into the specifics of precise cases, could you help by making us aware of the unforeseen risks of making stuff free on the internet ? ( I ask the question because I read below: "Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on this)"). Thanks Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont University of Neuch?tel Le 3 janv. 2020 ? 23:12, David Kellogg a ?crit : ? Wagner-- Nikolai and I did make all the material which we ourselves wrote available for free. All you have to do is click the free previews and the front and endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free previews will tell you, in summary form, what the actual lecture says, and you can decide whether it's worth the money to be able to cite chapter and verse. But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was just getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their Gestalist books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet publishing house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that published the first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt and has disappeared without a trace!) b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original sitting next to them). d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, according to the lawyers.) e) Springer stocks libraries. I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the internet. a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on this). b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain these days. c) It's gonna happen anyway. Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too might just be hungry. Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer was willing to take a chance and say yes. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article with Fang Li: "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial meta-stability" Text & Talk https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material presenting another unit of analysis. Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? Wagner On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg > wrote: This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea of what you (or your library) will be paying for. https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 But this is free! https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf and so is this: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article with Fang Li: "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial meta-stability" Text & Talk https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200104/67b9fb3f/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 4 10:59:06 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 10:59:06 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: <67F02936-548C-4CEE-8995-A436F75DE4EA@unine.ch> References: <67F02936-548C-4CEE-8995-A436F75DE4EA@unine.ch> Message-ID: Hi Ann Nelly et al -- We have never been hassled on lchc-related sites, including xmca. We have declared several times and in several places that xmca is an EDUCATIONAL discussion group and that papers/chapters posted there are for educational use. Either that has protected us or it is the extreme esoteric and trivial nature of the chat-ing that has spared us. I am not sure why Pedology would be subject to difficulties. The USSR did not join the copyright agreement until 1973 .. a fact that made possible, financially, the publications of the 1920's and later, critical, decades of Soviet cultural-historical work. Note how much is allowed on Research Gate and Academia. And note that there is an excellent e-book of many books, including Cultural Psych book, floating around the internet. I got mine free! Still very porous, but the fractionation of the internet will probably re-balkanize communication and bring it under the kind of direct local control exercised by the Chinese, now the Russian, and several other country. Its a big deal to me that The Pedology has been published. It makes sense of the way that Vygotsky's students distributed various parts of it around many publications in journals and book chapters. And hence influenced the way that these works were appropriated abroad. In the fullness of time there will be a special issue of MCA devoted to French colleagues have interpreted this important work. Back to the future again again! mike mike On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 8:00 AM PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: > Dear David, Dear Andy, > Andy's publications in open access are so useful. Without disclosing > private details nor entering into the specifics of precise cases, could you > help by making us aware of the unforeseen risks of making stuff free on > the internet ? ( I ask the question because I read below: "Somebody is > going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on this)"). > Thanks > Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont > University of Neuch?tel > > > Le 3 janv. 2020 ? 23:12, David Kellogg a ?crit : > > ? > Wagner-- > > Nikolai and I did make all the material which we ourselves wrote available > for free. All you have to do is click the free previews and the front and > endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free previews will tell you, in > summary form, what the actual lecture says, and you can decide whether it's > worth the money to be able to cite chapter and verse. > > But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. > > a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was just > getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their Gestalist > books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet publishing > house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that published the > first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt and has > disappeared without a trace!) > b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia > (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) > c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode > for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, > Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is > too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original > sitting next to them). > d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical > research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, > according to the lawyers.) > e) Springer stocks libraries. > > I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the > internet. > > a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on > this). > b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain > these days. > c) It's gonna happen anyway. > > Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one > chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too > might just be hungry. > > Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer > was willing to take a chance and say yes. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article with Fang Li: > "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial > meta-stability" > Text & Talk > > > https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml > > > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > >> We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material >> presenting another unit of analysis. >> >> Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger >> corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? >> >> Wagner >> >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on >>> the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea >>> of what you (or your library) will be paying for. >>> >>> >>> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >>> >>> >>> I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: >>> >>> >>> https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 >>> >>> >>> But this is free! >>> >>> >>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>> >>> >>> and so is this: >>> >>> >>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New article with Fang Li: >>> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >>> meta-stability" >>> Text & Talk >>> >>> >>> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >>> >>> -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200104/a28a9db5/attachment.html From Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch Sat Jan 4 11:37:19 2020 From: Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch (PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 19:37:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: References: <67F02936-548C-4CEE-8995-A436F75DE4EA@unine.ch>, Message-ID: <22040584-B1EC-477F-B751-BBECB87B31AB@unine.ch> Hi Michael, Thank you very much for these most interesting comments and for this information. I can see the risk of balkanisation... I would like to hope that it will be overcome in some way. Yes, all these publications, including pedology , are precious steps ahead. I am looking forward to the special issue prepared with the French. Nice event. Best greetings, Anne-Nelly Le 4 janv. 2020 ? 20:02, mike cole a ?crit : ? Hi Ann Nelly et al -- We have never been hassled on lchc-related sites, including xmca. We have declared several times and in several places that xmca is an EDUCATIONAL discussion group and that papers/chapters posted there are for educational use. Either that has protected us or it is the extreme esoteric and trivial nature of the chat-ing that has spared us. I am not sure why Pedology would be subject to difficulties. The USSR did not join the copyright agreement until 1973 .. a fact that made possible, financially, the publications of the 1920's and later, critical, decades of Soviet cultural-historical work. Note how much is allowed on Research Gate and Academia. And note that there is an excellent e-book of many books, including Cultural Psych book, floating around the internet. I got mine free! Still very porous, but the fractionation of the internet will probably re-balkanize communication and bring it under the kind of direct local control exercised by the Chinese, now the Russian, and several other country. Its a big deal to me that The Pedology has been published. It makes sense of the way that Vygotsky's students distributed various parts of it around many publications in journals and book chapters. And hence influenced the way that these works were appropriated abroad. In the fullness of time there will be a special issue of MCA devoted to French colleagues have interpreted this important work. Back to the future again again! mike mike On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 8:00 AM PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly > wrote: Dear David, Dear Andy, Andy's publications in open access are so useful. Without disclosing private details nor entering into the specifics of precise cases, could you help by making us aware of the unforeseen risks of making stuff free on the internet ? ( I ask the question because I read below: "Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on this)"). Thanks Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont University of Neuch?tel Le 3 janv. 2020 ? 23:12, David Kellogg > a ?crit : ? Wagner-- Nikolai and I did make all the material which we ourselves wrote available for free. All you have to do is click the free previews and the front and endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free previews will tell you, in summary form, what the actual lecture says, and you can decide whether it's worth the money to be able to cite chapter and verse. But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was just getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their Gestalist books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet publishing house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that published the first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt and has disappeared without a trace!) b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original sitting next to them). d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, according to the lawyers.) e) Springer stocks libraries. I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the internet. a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on this). b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain these days. c) It's gonna happen anyway. Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too might just be hungry. Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer was willing to take a chance and say yes. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article with Fang Li: "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial meta-stability" Text & Talk https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material presenting another unit of analysis. Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? Wagner On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg > wrote: This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea of what you (or your library) will be paying for. https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 But this is free! https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf and so is this: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article with Fang Li: "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial meta-stability" Text & Talk https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200104/6942702f/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Jan 4 13:57:58 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 06:57:58 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: <22040584-B1EC-477F-B751-BBECB87B31AB@unine.ch> References: <67F02936-548C-4CEE-8995-A436F75DE4EA@unine.ch> <22040584-B1EC-477F-B751-BBECB87B31AB@unine.ch> Message-ID: DEAR Wagner! No offense taken, of course! You and I are old CHAT chums, and a bit of rumpus is part of the skinship. (The name is "David", by the way..."Kellogg" is a well known breakfast cereal manufacturer whose biological relationship to me is far too distant to do me any good....) Actually, I think I probably share all of your concerns, including the price of commuting to ISCAR, climate change, and your worries over the death of Brazilian academia. I wouldn't exactly describe Korean academia as "dead", but our Vygotsky group is more or less dead to them, and we mostly distribute our work through the teachers' union. In fact, one reason why I wanted to publish Vygotsky in English is that the professoriat here will insist on reading him in English, even though our Korean translations are now done from Russian. Copyright is one barrier, and it's real. In response to Anne-Nelly's query (because I know Andy is under some stress these days), you might want to look at this: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140424/17582827024/radical-publisher-claims-copyright-free-collection-marx-engels-works-orders-them-taken-down.shtml But there are other barriers that are equally serious or even more so: translations are sometimes more wall than bridge. So for example on p. 50 of Vol 5 in the English Collected Works, we learn that Vygotsky's data comes from Pashkovskaya, and that Pashkovsakya's data comes, in part, from the SCY, the schools for "Christian" youth, supposedly "ShKM" in Russian. But the Russian word for Christian doesn't begin with "K" or "C"--it begins with "X". Even the Russian Collected Works gets this right: PEASANT schools are meant. The English, on p. 57, says this: "From our point of view, logical thinking is not composed of concepts so much as of separate elements". The Russian says exactly the opposite. Yes, you are right--the review system has also become a wall and not a bridge. But I think some of this is our own doing, you know. The other day I got a review that said, basically, I don't understand this paper at all, but I think it should be published and the readership should be given a chance to sort out what this guy is really trying to say. Even the first part of that review--the admission that the reviewer is over his or her head--is rare enough, let alone the admirable humility of the second part. More readership--less leadership! I think the longest, widest, worst wall of all--but the one most immediately in our power to get over--is still just drive-by citation: citing Vygotsky without actually reading him. I remember having my work rejected by "Vygotskyans" at the Canadian Modern Language Review who informed me that Vygotsky had clearly written that there could never be any such thing as a "group" or "collective" ZPD. Reviewers still complain when I point out that a ZPD is always measured in years, but these years are not calendar years, that Vygotsky was intimately associated with sex education (gay marriage was more or less legal in the USSR until 1931), that LSV could and did write about the Russian famine, and that he also wrote extensively on the effect of class consciousness on the adolescent. All of this can be found in the pedological works, and most of it in the selections already published in the Collected Works, even if it is well disguised by the editors and translators. Of course, MCA is doing more than its share ito overcome all these barriers! And yes, a beautiful special issue on the pedology is on the way in the new year. Francophone readers who cannot wait, though, should read the remarkable translation and editorial material of Irina Leopoldoff-Martin and Bernard Scheuwly which will be its basis: https://www.amazon.com/science-d%C3%A9veloppement-lenfant-p%C3%A9dologiques-Exploration/dp/303433348X And Springer has allowed us to make available selected passages in Engish free online in connection with the upcoming special issue! David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article with Fang Li: "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial meta-stability" Text & Talk https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 4:39 AM PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: > Hi Michael, > Thank you very much for these most interesting comments and for this > information. > I can see the risk of balkanisation... I would like to hope that it will > be overcome in some way. > Yes, all these publications, including pedology , are precious steps ahead. > I am looking forward to the special issue prepared with the French. Nice > event. > Best greetings, > Anne-Nelly > > > Le 4 janv. 2020 ? 20:02, mike cole a ?crit : > > ? > Hi Ann Nelly et al -- > > We have never been hassled on lchc-related sites, including xmca. We have > declared several times > and in several places that xmca is an EDUCATIONAL discussion group and > that papers/chapters posted > there are for educational use. Either that has protected us or it is the > extreme esoteric and trivial nature of the chat-ing > that has spared us. > > I am not sure why Pedology would be subject to difficulties. The USSR did > not join the copyright agreement until > 1973 .. a fact that made possible, financially, the publications of the > 1920's and later, critical, decades of Soviet > cultural-historical work. > > Note how much is allowed on Research Gate and Academia. > And note that there is an excellent e-book of many books, including > Cultural Psych book, floating around the internet. > I got mine free! > > Still very porous, but the fractionation of the internet will probably > re-balkanize communication and bring it under > the kind of direct local control exercised by the Chinese, now the > Russian, and several other country. > > Its a big deal to me that The Pedology has been published. It makes sense > of the way that Vygotsky's students > distributed various parts of it around many publications in journals and > book chapters. And hence influenced the way > that these works were appropriated abroad. In the fullness of time there > will be a special issue of MCA devoted to French colleagues have > interpreted this important work. > > Back to the future again again! > mike > > mike > > On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 8:00 AM PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < > Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: > >> Dear David, Dear Andy, >> Andy's publications in open access are so useful. Without disclosing >> private details nor entering into the specifics of precise cases, could you >> help by making us aware of the unforeseen risks of making stuff free on >> the internet ? ( I ask the question because I read below: "Somebody is >> going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on this)"). >> Thanks >> Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont >> University of Neuch?tel >> >> >> Le 3 janv. 2020 ? 23:12, David Kellogg a ?crit : >> >> ? >> Wagner-- >> >> Nikolai and I did make all the material which we >> ourselves wrote available for free. All you have to do is click the free >> previews and the front and endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free >> previews will tell you, in summary form, what the actual lecture says, and >> you can decide whether it's worth the money to be able to cite chapter and >> verse. >> >> But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. >> >> a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was >> just getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their >> Gestalist books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet >> publishing house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that >> published the first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt >> and has disappeared without a trace!) >> b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia >> (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) >> c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode >> for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, >> Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is >> too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original >> sitting next to them). >> d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical >> research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, >> according to the lawyers.) >> e) Springer stocks libraries. >> >> I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the >> internet. >> >> a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on >> this). >> b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain >> these days. >> c) It's gonna happen anyway. >> >> Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one >> chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too >> might just be hungry. >> >> Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer >> was willing to take a chance and say yes. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New article with Fang Li: >> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >> meta-stability" >> Text & Talk >> >> >> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < >> wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material >>> presenting another unit of analysis. >>> >>> Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger >>> corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? >>> >>> Wagner >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on >>>> the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea >>>> of what you (or your library) will be paying for. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 >>>> >>>> >>>> But this is free! >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> and so is this: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New article with Fang Li: >>>> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >>>> meta-stability" >>>> Text & Talk >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >>>> >>>> > > -- > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, > therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - > R. Ellison > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200105/c1278c7b/attachment.html From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Sun Jan 5 04:35:15 2020 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 09:35:15 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: References: <67F02936-548C-4CEE-8995-A436F75DE4EA@unine.ch> <22040584-B1EC-477F-B751-BBECB87B31AB@unine.ch> Message-ID: Dear David (I hadn't made the connection with the cereal until now). I couldn't agree more. And you just reminded me of social ZPD, so yes, let's keep working and see where it goes. And for anyone that got by my (now I see as unnecessary) harsh words, I am really sorry. My apologies. I as playing games yesterday and a genetics biologist friend of mine was complaining of very similar stuff. Them my brother in law, a pharmacist, said this: what you guys are discussing are problems in the academia bubble, I need to explain people why you should follow the doctor instructions for engineers. Wagner On Sat, Jan 4, 2020, 19:05 David Kellogg wrote: > DEAR Wagner! > > No offense taken, of course! You and I are old CHAT chums, and a bit of > rumpus is part of the skinship. (The name is "David", by the > way..."Kellogg" is a well known breakfast cereal manufacturer whose > biological relationship to me is far too distant to do me any good....) > > Actually, I think I probably share all of your concerns, including the > price of commuting to ISCAR, climate change, and your worries over the > death of Brazilian academia. I wouldn't exactly describe Korean academia as > "dead", but our Vygotsky group is more or less dead to them, and we mostly > distribute our work through the teachers' union. In fact, one reason why I > wanted to publish Vygotsky in English is that the professoriat here will > insist on reading him in English, even though our Korean translations are > now done from Russian. > > Copyright is one barrier, and it's real. In response to Anne-Nelly's query > (because I know Andy is under some stress these days), you might want to > look at this: > > > https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140424/17582827024/radical-publisher-claims-copyright-free-collection-marx-engels-works-orders-them-taken-down.shtml > > But there are other barriers that are equally serious or even more so: > translations are sometimes more wall than bridge. So for example on p. 50 > of Vol 5 in the English Collected Works, we learn that Vygotsky's data > comes from Pashkovskaya, and that Pashkovsakya's data comes, in part, from > the SCY, the schools for "Christian" youth, supposedly "ShKM" in Russian. > But the Russian word for Christian doesn't begin with "K" or "C"--it begins > with "X". Even the Russian Collected Works gets this right: PEASANT schools > are meant. The English, on p. 57, says this: "From our point of view, > logical thinking is not composed of concepts so much as of separate > elements". The Russian says exactly the opposite. > > Yes, you are right--the review system has also become a wall and not a > bridge. But I think some of this is our own doing, you know. The other day > I got a review that said, basically, I don't understand this paper at all, > but I think it should be published and the readership should be given a > chance to sort out what this guy is really trying to say. Even the first > part of that review--the admission that the reviewer is over his or her > head--is rare enough, let alone the admirable humility of the second part. > More readership--less leadership! > > I think the longest, widest, worst wall of all--but the one most > immediately in our power to get over--is still just drive-by citation: > citing Vygotsky without actually reading him. I remember having my work > rejected by "Vygotskyans" at the Canadian Modern Language Review who > informed me that Vygotsky had clearly written that there could never be any > such thing as a "group" or "collective" ZPD. Reviewers still complain when > I point out that a ZPD is always measured in years, but these years are not > calendar years, that Vygotsky was intimately associated with sex education > (gay marriage was more or less legal in the USSR until 1931), that LSV > could and did write about the Russian famine, and that he also wrote > extensively on the effect of class consciousness on the adolescent. All of > this can be found in the pedological works, and most of it in the > selections already published in the Collected Works, even if it is well > disguised by the editors and translators. > > Of course, MCA is doing more than its share ito overcome all these > barriers! And yes, a beautiful special issue on the pedology is on the way > in the new year. Francophone readers who cannot wait, though, should read > the remarkable translation and editorial material of Irina > Leopoldoff-Martin and Bernard Scheuwly which will be its basis: > > > https://www.amazon.com/science-d%C3%A9veloppement-lenfant-p%C3%A9dologiques-Exploration/dp/303433348X > > And Springer has allowed us to make available selected passages > in Engish free online in connection with the upcoming special issue! > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article with Fang Li: > "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial > meta-stability" > Text & Talk > > > https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml > > > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 4:39 AM PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < > Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: > >> Hi Michael, >> Thank you very much for these most interesting comments and for this >> information. >> I can see the risk of balkanisation... I would like to hope that it will >> be overcome in some way. >> Yes, all these publications, including pedology , are precious steps >> ahead. >> I am looking forward to the special issue prepared with the French. Nice >> event. >> Best greetings, >> Anne-Nelly >> >> >> Le 4 janv. 2020 ? 20:02, mike cole a ?crit : >> >> ? >> Hi Ann Nelly et al -- >> >> We have never been hassled on lchc-related sites, including xmca. We have >> declared several times >> and in several places that xmca is an EDUCATIONAL discussion group and >> that papers/chapters posted >> there are for educational use. Either that has protected us or it is the >> extreme esoteric and trivial nature of the chat-ing >> that has spared us. >> >> I am not sure why Pedology would be subject to difficulties. The USSR >> did not join the copyright agreement until >> 1973 .. a fact that made possible, financially, the publications of the >> 1920's and later, critical, decades of Soviet >> cultural-historical work. >> >> Note how much is allowed on Research Gate and Academia. >> And note that there is an excellent e-book of many books, including >> Cultural Psych book, floating around the internet. >> I got mine free! >> >> Still very porous, but the fractionation of the internet will probably >> re-balkanize communication and bring it under >> the kind of direct local control exercised by the Chinese, now the >> Russian, and several other country. >> >> Its a big deal to me that The Pedology has been published. It makes sense >> of the way that Vygotsky's students >> distributed various parts of it around many publications in journals and >> book chapters. And hence influenced the way >> that these works were appropriated abroad. In the fullness of time there >> will be a special issue of MCA devoted to French colleagues have >> interpreted this important work. >> >> Back to the future again again! >> mike >> >> mike >> >> On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 8:00 AM PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < >> Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: >> >>> Dear David, Dear Andy, >>> Andy's publications in open access are so useful. Without disclosing >>> private details nor entering into the specifics of precise cases, could you >>> help by making us aware of the unforeseen risks of making stuff free on >>> the internet ? ( I ask the question because I read below: "Somebody is >>> going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on this)"). >>> Thanks >>> Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont >>> University of Neuch?tel >>> >>> >>> Le 3 janv. 2020 ? 23:12, David Kellogg a ?crit : >>> >>> ? >>> Wagner-- >>> >>> Nikolai and I did make all the material which we >>> ourselves wrote available for free. All you have to do is click the free >>> previews and the front and endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free >>> previews will tell you, in summary form, what the actual lecture says, and >>> you can decide whether it's worth the money to be able to cite chapter and >>> verse. >>> >>> But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. >>> >>> a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was >>> just getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their >>> Gestalist books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet >>> publishing house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that >>> published the first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt >>> and has disappeared without a trace!) >>> b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia >>> (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) >>> c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode >>> for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, >>> Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is >>> too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original >>> sitting next to them). >>> d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical >>> research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, >>> according to the lawyers.) >>> e) Springer stocks libraries. >>> >>> I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the >>> internet. >>> >>> a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on >>> this). >>> b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain >>> these days. >>> c) It's gonna happen anyway. >>> >>> Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one >>> chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too >>> might just be hungry. >>> >>> Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer >>> was willing to take a chance and say yes. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New article with Fang Li: >>> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >>> meta-stability" >>> Text & Talk >>> >>> >>> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < >>> wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material >>>> presenting another unit of analysis. >>>> >>>> Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger >>>> corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? >>>> >>>> Wagner >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on >>>>> the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea >>>>> of what you (or your library) will be paying for. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But this is free! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> and so is this: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Sangmyung University >>>>> >>>>> New article with Fang Li: >>>>> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >>>>> meta-stability" >>>>> Text & Talk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >>>>> >>>>> >> >> -- >> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, >> therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - >> R. Ellison >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other >> members of LCHC, visit >> lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit >> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200105/8c6c0185/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sun Jan 5 05:38:03 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 00:38:03 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: <67F02936-548C-4CEE-8995-A436F75DE4EA@unine.ch> References: <67F02936-548C-4CEE-8995-A436F75DE4EA@unine.ch> Message-ID: <9abcd993-499c-fcd0-a6d7-e1af5ebcb0f5@marxists.org> Anne-Nelly, At marxists.org we publish a vast collection of works by several hundred writers across 60 languages, though our Charter restricts us from publishing works by living authors (with some exceptions). We avoid breaching copyright because to do so risks court action which we, as a volunteer organisation could not withstand. In general though we can push the boundaries a little because most of our material is not of great commercial value, and we are safe from prosecution so long as we withdraw material the moment a copyright holder requests us to. We are only vulnerable should we refuse to take material down. You can't 'withdraw' material once you have put it in hard copy, of course. Further, while it existed, the USSR published much of the material in a wide variety of languages, and being a state, their product is by definition in the public domain. However, there are a few cases where we have had trouble. * Lawrence & Wishart threatened court action when demanding we remove all translations copied from MECW. We had to comply, despite the fact that pirate copies of the entire MECW are available on the internet. * Pathfinder Press demanded we remove all the translations of Trotsky et al made by their party comrades, so we have had to use other translations * Lawrence & Wishart also forced us to take down almost all of our Gramsci despite us having permission of the translator. We have translated a small number of pieces ourselves. We have not had trouble publishing Vygotsky, but this is partly because we take care to only publish selectively, enough to stimulate interest but not enough to satisfy demand. The publishers of Vygotsky are our friends. We have been able to publish all the important works of Hegel by avoiding recent translations still on the shelves of booksellers, and by using older translations, which, fortunately, are published by a large number of different publishers, for none of whom are our publications a serious threat. We respect copyright laws mainly so as to continue to be able to provide our core texts free to the world, but having a mind too that the people whose economic interests we may impinge on are largely our friends. Those who are not, let us know. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 5/01/2020 2:58 am, PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly wrote: > Dear David, Dear Andy, > Andy's publications in open access are so useful. Without > disclosing private details nor entering into the specifics > of precise cases, could you help by making us aware of the > unforeseen risks of making stuff free on the internet ? ( > I ask the question because I read below: "Somebody is > going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on > this)"). > Thanks > Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont > University of Neuch?tel > > >> Le 3 janv. 2020 ? 23:12, David Kellogg >> a ?crit?: >> > ? > Wagner-- > > Nikolai and I did make all the material which we > ourselves?wrote?available for free. All you have to do is > click the free previews and the front and endmatter,and > you'll get a free pdf. The free previews will tell you, in > summary form, what the actual lecture says, and you can > decide whether it's worth the money to be able to cite > chapter and verse. > > But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing > with Springer. > > a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded > when Marx was just getting started in journalism and > Vygotsky cites a lot of their Gestalist books--hopefully > they will last longer than, say, the Soviet publishing > house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press > that published the first version of the lectures back in > 2001 is now bankrupt and has disappeared without a trace!) > b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here > in East Asia (they aren't in Singapore for?the cheap labour!) > c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are > the main mode for literacy on my commute to work these > days. (Even in illiterate England, Paul McCartney says he > can ride the London tube now because everybody is too busy > looking up his picture on Google images to notice the > original sitting next to them). > d)?Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the > cultural-historical research series, (She has some claim > to the?rights to Vygotsky's work, according to the lawyers.) > e) Springer stocks libraries. > > I can also think of three good reasons for not making > stuff free on the internet. > > a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy > for details on this). > b) It's too confusing for readers?to sort out the chaff > from the grain these days. > c) It's gonna happen anyway. > > Actually,?the main reason we chose Springer was the same > reason that one chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary > partner even though they too might just?be?hungry. > > Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. > Springer was?willing to take a?chance and say?yes. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article with Fang Li: > "How do novels hang together? Characterization as > registerial meta-stability" > Text & Talk > > https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml > > > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > > > wrote: > > We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very > interesting material presenting another unit of analysis. > > Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing > with money hunger corporations, for-profit publishers > and so on? > > Wagner > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. > But if you click on the free preview and the > chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea > of what you (or your library) will be paying for. > > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: > > > https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 > > > But this is free! > > > https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf > > > and so is this: > > > https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New article with Fang Li: > "How do novels hang together? Characterization as > registerial meta-stability" > Text & Talk > > https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200106/b68e22b7/attachment.html From Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch Sun Jan 5 06:33:00 2020 From: Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch (PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 14:33:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: References: <67F02936-548C-4CEE-8995-A436F75DE4EA@unine.ch> <22040584-B1EC-477F-B751-BBECB87B31AB@unine.ch> Message-ID: Thank you David Anne-Nelly De : > on behalf of David Kellogg > R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date : samedi, 4 janvier 2020 ? 22:57 ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Objet : [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 Copyright is one barrier, and it's real. In response to Anne-Nelly's query (because I know Andy is under some stress these days), you might want to look at this: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140424/17582827024/radical-publisher-claims-copyright-free-collection-marx-engels-works-orders-them-taken-down.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200105/24eca19a/attachment.html From Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch Sun Jan 5 06:36:33 2020 From: Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch (PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 14:36:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: <9abcd993-499c-fcd0-a6d7-e1af5ebcb0f5@marxists.org> References: <67F02936-548C-4CEE-8995-A436F75DE4EA@unine.ch> <9abcd993-499c-fcd0-a6d7-e1af5ebcb0f5@marxists.org> Message-ID: Andy, Thank you very much for all this. Your experience, expertise and wiseness are very useful for all of us who are trying to make publications accessible. And thanks also for all your work. Thanks again, Anne-Nelly De : > on behalf of Andy Blunden > R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date : dimanche, 5 janvier 2020 ? 14:38 ? : "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Objet : [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 Anne-Nelly, At marxists.org we publish a vast collection of works by several hundred writers across 60 languages, though our Charter restricts us from publishing works by living authors (with some exceptions). We avoid breaching copyright because to do so risks court action which we, as a volunteer organisation could not withstand. In general though we can push the boundaries a little because most of our material is not of great commercial value, and we are safe from prosecution so long as we withdraw material the moment a copyright holder requests us to. We are only vulnerable should we refuse to take material down. You can't 'withdraw' material once you have put it in hard copy, of course. Further, while it existed, the USSR published much of the material in a wide variety of languages, and being a state, their product is by definition in the public domain. However, there are a few cases where we have had trouble. * Lawrence & Wishart threatened court action when demanding we remove all translations copied from MECW. We had to comply, despite the fact that pirate copies of the entire MECW are available on the internet. * Pathfinder Press demanded we remove all the translations of Trotsky et al made by their party comrades, so we have had to use other translations * Lawrence & Wishart also forced us to take down almost all of our Gramsci despite us having permission of the translator. We have translated a small number of pieces ourselves. We have not had trouble publishing Vygotsky, but this is partly because we take care to only publish selectively, enough to stimulate interest but not enough to satisfy demand. The publishers of Vygotsky are our friends. We have been able to publish all the important works of Hegel by avoiding recent translations still on the shelves of booksellers, and by using older translations, which, fortunately, are published by a large number of different publishers, for none of whom are our publications a serious threat. We respect copyright laws mainly so as to continue to be able to provide our core texts free to the world, but having a mind too that the people whose economic interests we may impinge on are largely our friends. Those who are not, let us know. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 5/01/2020 2:58 am, PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly wrote: Dear David, Dear Andy, Andy's publications in open access are so useful. Without disclosing private details nor entering into the specifics of precise cases, could you help by making us aware of the unforeseen risks of making stuff free on the internet ? ( I ask the question because I read below: "Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on this)"). Thanks Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont University of Neuch?tel Le 3 janv. 2020 ? 23:12, David Kellogg a ?crit : Wagner-- Nikolai and I did make all the material which we ourselves wrote available for free. All you have to do is click the free previews and the front and endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free previews will tell you, in summary form, what the actual lecture says, and you can decide whether it's worth the money to be able to cite chapter and verse. But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was just getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their Gestalist books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet publishing house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that published the first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt and has disappeared without a trace!) b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original sitting next to them). d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, according to the lawyers.) e) Springer stocks libraries. I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the internet. a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on this). b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain these days. c) It's gonna happen anyway. Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too might just be hungry. Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer was willing to take a chance and say yes. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article with Fang Li: "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial meta-stability" Text & Talk https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material presenting another unit of analysis. Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? Wagner On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg > wrote: This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea of what you (or your library) will be paying for. https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 But this is free! https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf and so is this: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf David Kellogg Sangmyung University New article with Fang Li: "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial meta-stability" Text & Talk https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200105/b6877022/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jan 9 03:16:43 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 20:16:43 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Just Published: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Vol. 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Jody: I just got a message from the publisher--they "print on demand". This is a new technique that a lot of publishers use--it means they don't have to keep warehouses and hire workers, or worry aboiut unsold copies. Once you order, they just print the copy that you've ordered. What this means is that hardbound copies take one to three months if you order them through Amazon.com. But if you order them straight from the publisher, you should get a copy in six weeks time (!). Notice that you can get a ringbound "e-copy" version for twenty-four dollars--for some reason this is a lot cheaper than an electronic e-version. Go figure! (This is the kind that I always take to the gym--it's the only kind that stays open on the treadmill, and it does wonders to block out the robotic music they insist on playing.....) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in *Mind Culture and Activity* *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 * Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 9:26 AM Jody Cooper wrote: > Sorry to be a bother, but I tried to order a hardcopy book. I registered > with Springer, successfully I believe. But they won't let me put the book > in my cart and buy it. Maybe I'll have to buy an ebook? Any suggestions? > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 5:11 PM David Kellogg wrote: > >> Wagner-- >> >> Nikolai and I did make all the material which we >> ourselves wrote available for free. All you have to do is click the free >> previews and the front and endmatter,and you'll get a free pdf. The free >> previews will tell you, in summary form, what the actual lecture says, and >> you can decide whether it's worth the money to be able to cite chapter and >> verse. >> >> But I can think of a lot of good reasons for publishing with Springer. >> >> a) Springer have been around a while--they were founded when Marx was >> just getting started in journalism and Vygotsky cites a lot of their >> Gestalist books--hopefully they will last longer than, say, the Soviet >> publishing house Vygotsky used did. (The Russian university press that >> published the first version of the lectures back in 2001 is now bankrupt >> and has disappeared without a trace!) >> b) Springer are very much part of the academic market here in East Asia >> (they aren't in Singapore for the cheap labour!) >> c) Springer have an aggressive line in e-books, which are the main mode >> for literacy on my commute to work these days. (Even in illiterate England, >> Paul McCartney says he can ride the London tube now because everybody is >> too busy looking up his picture on Google images to notice the original >> sitting next to them). >> d) Yelena Kravtsova is on the editorial board of the cultural-historical >> research series, (She has some claim to the rights to Vygotsky's work, >> according to the lawyers.) >> e) Springer stocks libraries. >> >> I can also think of three good reasons for not making stuff free on the >> internet. >> >> a) Somebody is going to sue you eventually (apply to Andy for details on >> this). >> b) It's too confusing for readers to sort out the chaff from the grain >> these days. >> c) It's gonna happen anyway. >> >> Actually, the main reason we chose Springer was the same reason that one >> chooses a wife, husband, or more temporary partner even though they too >> might just be hungry. >> >> Everybody out there was taking no risks and saying no. Springer >> was willing to take a chance and say yes. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New article with Fang Li: >> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >> meta-stability" >> Text & Talk >> >> >> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:04 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < >> wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> We have this in Portuguese, and cheap. Very very interesting material >>> presenting another unit of analysis. >>> >>> Seriously, why we as Marxists insists on publishing with money hunger >>> corporations, for-profit publishers and so on? >>> >>> Wagner >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> This is a pretty slim volume, and it's expensive. But if you click on >>>> the free preview and the chapter summaries, you can get a pretty good idea >>>> of what you (or your library) will be paying for. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm afraid that even the ebook is expensive: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-981-15-0528-7 >>>> >>>> >>>> But this is free! >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> and so is this: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-15-0528-7%2F1.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New article with Fang Li: >>>> "How do novels hang together? Characterization as registerial >>>> meta-stability" >>>> Text & Talk >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/text.ahead-of-print/text-2019-2051/text-2019-2051.xml >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200109/5395877c/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jan 10 15:33:36 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 15:33:36 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: See below for an invitation to the 2020 Ilyenov Seminar. It looks to be an unusually interesting event. mike On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 1:37 PM Potapov, Kyrill wrote: > Dear Professor Cole, > > > > We wanted to get in touch to ask if you could publicize our Ilyenkov > symposium on xMCA. > > > > Here is the link bit.ly/ilyenkov2020 > > > > Many thanks, > > Kyrill > > > > > -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200110/3da4060d/attachment.html From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Sat Jan 11 04:11:14 2020 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 09:11:14 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seems very interesting! On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 8:35 PM mike cole wrote: > See below for an invitation to the 2020 Ilyenov Seminar. > It looks to be an unusually interesting event. > mike > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 1:37 PM Potapov, Kyrill < > kyrill.potapov.16@ucl.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Dear Professor Cole, >> >> >> >> We wanted to get in touch to ask if you could publicize our Ilyenkov >> symposium on xMCA. >> >> >> >> Here is the link bit.ly/ilyenkov2020 >> >> >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Kyrill >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, > therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - > R. Ellison > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200111/32d0354f/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Jan 14 18:46:30 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:46:30 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] useful psychology? Message-ID: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/a24eff38/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Jan 14 19:32:25 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 12:32:25 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> Message-ID: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in *Mind Culture and Activity* *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 * Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as > opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this > observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think > Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in > this connection. > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/fd7b2b0e/attachment-0001.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jan 14 19:59:51 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:59:51 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> Message-ID: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg wrote: > Andy-- > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of > Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's > short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had > nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human > Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical > illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could > ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound > turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology > opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to > itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, > Aphorism 2. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology >> as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where >> this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I >> think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned >> in this connection. >> >> Andy >> > >> -- >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> > -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200114/a42b3361/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Jan 14 20:09:13 2020 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:09:13 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> Message-ID: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in *Mind Culture and Activity* *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 * Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole wrote: > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > Mike > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > >> Andy-- >> >> That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. >> >> Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of >> Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's >> short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had >> nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human >> Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical >> illusions in "uneducated" peoples >> >> . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could >> ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in >> Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound >> turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology >> opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? >> >> Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to >> itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, >> Aphorism 2. >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and >> Word" i >> in *Mind Culture and Activity* >> >> *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> * >> Some free e-prints available at: >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology >>> as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where >>> this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I >>> think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned >>> in this connection. >>> >>> Andy >>> >> >>> -- >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> >> -- > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, > therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - > R. Ellison > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/576bad99/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Jan 14 23:27:53 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 18:27:53 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> Message-ID: Yes. I'll do a search for psychotechnics on the internet archive and see if something comes up. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 2:59 pm, mike cole wrote: > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > Mike > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > > wrote: > > Andy-- > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of > emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments > on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short > story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as > I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie > detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he > was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical > illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general > psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and > vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who > rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the > sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who > ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? > What would that mean? A hand without a brain? > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor > the brain left to itself can do much."? Francis Bacon, > /Novum Organum/ (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of > Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i > in /Mind Culture and Activity/ > /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > / > Some free e-prints available at: > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about > psychology as a technology as opposed to (for > example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to > where this observation is to be found. I can find > it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and > Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been > mentioned in this connection. > > Andy > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > -- > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of > ?as if?, therein lies its true? ?function and its > potential for effecting change- R. Ellison > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself > and other members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu . For a narrative > history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/8d2f4ed6/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Jan 14 23:39:01 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 18:39:01 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> Message-ID: This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but/*in one word ? psychotechnics*/, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human > resource management. The idea was to select particular > "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet > idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were > very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based > on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis > on making sure that people suited the professions chosen > for them, as education was a very scarce resource. > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of > Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the > language of the Red Army soldier is written with that > perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic > conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a > pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. > > Vygotsky said no. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's > "Thought and Word" i > in /Mind Culture and Activity/ > /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > / > Some free e-prints available at: > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > Mike > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > Andy-- > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of > emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did > experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if > Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing > rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do > with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature > of Human Conflict), and he was even rather > skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in > "uneducated" peoples > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a > general psychology could ever cut itself off from > practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking > is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and > Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology > opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? > A hand without a brain? > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand > nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis > Bacon, /Novum Organum/ (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of > Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i > in /Mind Culture and Activity/ > /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > / > Some free e-prints available at: > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about > psychology as a technology as opposed to (for > example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me > to where this observation is to be found. I > can find it with my search engines. I think > Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the > lie-detector has been mentioned in this > connection. > > Andy > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > -- > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game > of ?as if?, therein lies its true? ?function and its > potential for effecting change- R. Ellison > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of > myself and other members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu . For a narrative > history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/b779c024/attachment.html From julie.waddington@udg.edu Wed Jan 15 00:23:31 2020 From: julie.waddington@udg.edu (JULIE WADDINGTON) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:23:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> , Message-ID: David, Thank you for this. I was recently talking to a practising psychologist friend about teacher training. The conversation led her to tell me about efforts being made in some circles (she mentioned the national college of psychologists) to make psychometric tests compulsory to be able to access university teacher training: candidates deemed 'unsuitable' would be denied access. I was very uncomfortable with this idea for many reasons. The information you share gives me more reasons to doubt the 'usefulness' of such tests and to worry about their potential application. I'll keep your reply on file in case we (those in teacher training) need to argue the case against psychotechnic selection at some point. Julie Dra. Julie Waddington Departament de Did?ctiques Espec?fiques Facultat d'Educaci? i Psicologia Universitat de Girona ________________________________ De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] en nom de David Kellogg [dkellogg60@gmail.com] Enviat el: dimecres, 15 / gener / 2020 05:09 Per a: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Tema: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/e4e6d289/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Wed Jan 15 19:45:26 2020 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:45:26 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] An article "X-ray report of Economic Growth". Message-ID: Hi all friends, Here is one article "X-Ray Report of Economic Growth" now published in the Journal of Sumy State University. This is a short article. I send the links here bellow, *Link (Article Text):* http://armgpublishing.sumdu.edu.ua/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/8-2.pdf *Link (content Page): * http://armgpublishing.sumdu.edu.ua/journals/fmir/volume-3-issue-4/article-8/ Your views / comments will help me. Regards, Harshad Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/546d6301/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 15 07:20:19 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 07:20:19 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> Message-ID: Bingo Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 11:42 PM Andy Blunden wrote: > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of > psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of > practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such > a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but *in > one word ? psychotechnics*, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to > the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of > behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource > management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. > It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the > Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on > it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that > people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very > scarce resource. > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a > psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is > written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic > conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, > to aid in psychotechnic selection. > > Vygotsky said no. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole wrote: > >> Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? >> Mike >> >> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> Andy-- >>> >>> That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. >>> >>> Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology >>> of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if >>> Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know >>> he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of >>> Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on >>> optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples >>> >>> . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could >>> ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in >>> Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound >>> turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology >>> opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? >>> >>> Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to >>> itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, >>> Aphorism 2. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and >>> Word" i >>> in *Mind Culture and Activity* >>> >>> *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>> * >>> Some free e-prints available at: >>> >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden >>> wrote: >>> >>>> There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology >>>> as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where >>>> this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I >>>> think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned >>>> in this connection. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> Home Page >>>> >>> -- >> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, >> therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - >> R. Ellison >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other >> members of LCHC, visit >> lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit >> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/4f9aa4e0/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Wed Jan 15 08:21:34 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:21:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> Message-ID: I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/a3f986e7/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 15 09:56:12 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:56:12 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> Message-ID: In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael wrote: > I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his > discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s > last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was > falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying > Andy. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of > psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of > practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such > a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but *in > one word ? psychotechnics*, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to > the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of > behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource > management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. > It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the > Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on > it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that > people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very > scarce resource. > > > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a > psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is > written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic > conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, > to aid in psychotechnic selection. > > > > Vygotsky said no. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Andy-- > > > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. > > > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of > Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's > short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had > nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human > Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical > illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could > ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound > turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology > opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? > > > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to > itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, > Aphorism 2. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as > opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this > observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think > Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in > this connection. > > Andy > > > > -- > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein > lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/f91b983e/attachment.html From jussi.silvonen@uef.fi Wed Jan 15 10:14:59 2020 From: jussi.silvonen@uef.fi (Jussi Silvonen) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 18:14:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> , Message-ID: Mike, take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. JusSi ---------------- Jussi Silvonen Dosentti It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto PL 111 (Metria) 80101 Joensuu ------------------ https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu k?ytt?j?n mike cole puolesta L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/f7033704/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Wed Jan 15 11:42:59 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:42:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> , Message-ID: I don't know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined "empirical" and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo's idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Mike, take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. JusSi ---------------- Jussi Silvonen Dosentti It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto PL 111 (Metria) 80101 Joensuu ------------------ https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: I don't know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg's last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that's what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word - psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for "psychotechnics" Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of "as if", therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of "as if", therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200115/547d002e/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jan 16 03:46:29 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:46:29 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> Message-ID: <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. Now there /is /an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control /their own/ mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really > criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from > what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should > be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can > use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One > hint I get from the piece is his mention of using > practical psychology to determine whether people should be > tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also > against the rising use of intelligence tests as a > psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part > I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and > Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and > practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be > detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send > psychology towards the types of practical models of the > physical sciences where it did not belong, something that > I think has plagued the field since. At least from my > reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it > confusing that Musterberg by following James was also > grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that > people behave in certain ways because they were human. > Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to > reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a > precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to > merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not > falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want > to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he > definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence > testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology > for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas > Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit > in here). > > Michael > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Jussi > Silvonen > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM > *To:* mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Mike, > > take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can > find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is > obvious, that M?sterberg had? a great influence on LSV, at > least in his theory's instrumental phase. > > JusSi > > ---------------- > Jussi Silvonen > Dosentti > It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus > Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto > PL 111 (Metria) > 80101 Joensuu > ------------------ > https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home > > https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen > > http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *L?hett?j?:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > k?ytt?j?n mike > cole > puolesta > *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 > *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply > immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV > sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" > in work, check his book out on google and search the term. > For example, > > Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a > causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is > related to physics.? Psychotechnics necessarily refers to > the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to > the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) > > It would be interesting to stage a discussion > bertween?Munsterberg and LSV.? Which one would have more > to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? > > And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! > > mike > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > > wrote: > > I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing > Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, > which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last > book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking > Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist > trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. > > Michael > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf > Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the > fundamental problems of psychology which he objected > to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice > provided all the solutions to these problems. "The > goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in > concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but */in one word ? > psychotechnics/*, i.e., a scientific theory which > would lead to the subordination and mastery of the > mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version > of human resource management. The idea was to > select particular "types" for particular jobs. It > wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany > (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the > selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In > China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on > making sure that people suited the professions > chosen for them, as education was a very scarce > resource. > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a > colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his > essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is > written with that perspective in mind. And it was > at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was > asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to > aid in psychotechnic selection. > > Vygotsky said no. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of > Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i > > in /Mind Culture and Activity/ > > /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > / > > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. > Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: > Foundations of Pedology" > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > > wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > > Mike > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > > wrote: > > Andy-- > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to > me. > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social > technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). > Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle > Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had > any affect on breathing rates. But as far > as I know he had nothing to do with > Luria's work on lie detectors (in The > Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even > rather skeptical of Luria's work on > optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied > that a general psychology could ever cut > itself off from practice and vice versa > (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who > rejected the idea that thinking is speech > with the sound turned off (Thinking and > Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a > technology opposed to an epistemology? > What would that mean? A hand without a brain? > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither > the hand nor the brain left to itself can > do much."? Francis Bacon, /Novum Organum/ > (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the > originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i > > in /Mind Culture and Activity/ > > /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > / > > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy > Blunden > wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks > about psychology as a technology as > opposed to (for example) an > epistemology. Can anyone point me to > where this observation is to be found. > I can find it with my search engines. > I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention > of the lie-detector has been mentioned > in this connection. > > Andy > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > -- > > ?fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a > mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true > ?function and its potential for effecting > change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the > research of myself and other members of LCHC, > visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of > LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of > ?as if?, therein lies its true ?function and its potential > for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself > and other members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200116/3c845228/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Thu Jan 16 04:33:35 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:33:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> Message-ID: Andy, all, Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? Alfredo From: on behalf of Andy Blunden Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Mike, take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. JusSi ---------------- Jussi Silvonen Dosentti It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto PL 111 (Metria) 80101 Joensuu ------------------ https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200116/7ee416cf/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Thu Jan 16 06:41:40 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 14:41:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hi Alfredo and Andy, I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Andy, all, Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Mike, take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. JusSi ---------------- Jussi Silvonen Dosentti It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto PL 111 (Metria) 80101 Joensuu ------------------ https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200116/efa352aa/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Thu Jan 16 08:13:31 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 16:13:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> Message-ID: <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! Alfredo From: on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Hi Alfredo and Andy, I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Andy, all, Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Mike, take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. JusSi ---------------- Jussi Silvonen Dosentti It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto PL 111 (Metria) 80101 Joensuu ------------------ https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200116/5b0e7ac7/attachment.html From haydizulfei@gmail.com Thu Jan 16 09:32:52 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 21:02:52 +0330 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> Message-ID: Alfredo, I?m just concentrating on your own word whether borrowed or created. How is behaviorism the science of controlling people? The science which allows people to salivate without control , lead their lives just by associations which function is carried out by second signals as the ringtone functions as the Real food. Is that what you mean? I might have forgotten Vygotsky and Leontiev. But from what I can take from your own saying , it seems that the reverse might be the case. Because we reject behaviorism as it does not go far beyond sensation and perception to reach true cognition. And as we are talking about sciences , we should be familiar with how concepts and categories are acquired. How we ascend from the abstract to the concrete. How we form ideas , concepts and categories by our acting on the World .That will take us to the concepts of necessity and freedom. Vygotsky has much to say how actuality leads to concepts. We cry of not being able to have control over our chaotic behavior ; therefore we seek shelter in goal-oriented activities. Actions conduit not unbridled. But in this you again see defects , conditions! How can one conduct an action without being involved in Conditions (Ecology you say , OK.) ? Conditions in the language of philosophy becomes Necessity which concept Vygotsky likes and spends times to clarify its coming into being and this is the niceties of Vygotsky?s work. One might take thought into word as one direct line from external to internal. How energetic he was to see how it shapes and it what phases and stages! He takes the blocks as real things yet unrecognized or not gone through stages of true cognition. If there are not blocks with properties , ideas are not created and blocks are conditioned in quasi-real life circumstance (first abstraction from the real life situation) as commodities act as units of analysis in Capital. You , friend , talk of free development as though it can be achieved in vacuum and in the air. Right now our unit of analysis in our current science is that Bernie Sanders? Medicare is in the Senate. If we say this unit involves the whole world , we have not overestimated it. I hope some great scholar won?t ask me if I?m weaving politics or knowledge! Conditions come their own way out of our checks and controls. Freedom is on the ground not in the air. How to know the shackles and how to change their ways or how to remove them altogether. All the best Haydi On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:45 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a > science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question > ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and > conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same > question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, > and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. > > > > In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. > > > > Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite > explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you > refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is > still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the > so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms > (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, > digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we > are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our > understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century > are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to > connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical > organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t > remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of > civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate > prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only > variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas > emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas > emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing > towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a > digression, sorry! > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of "Glassman, > Michael" > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Hi Alfredo and Andy, > > > > I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. > Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I > think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the > head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from > Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog > in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky > at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those > outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to > control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible > ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the > ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can > actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before > applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is > really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited > situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a > satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes > more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, > controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous > ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social > interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist > alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only > a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I > am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) > those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this > today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer > broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills > such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate > their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of > what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was > writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants > to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation > on Hamlet. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Andy, all, > > > > Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an > emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory > courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as > aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend > in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of > ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. > ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well > formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which > precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that > ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Andy Blunden < > andyb@marxists.org> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a > scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the > mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes > Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. > > Now there *is *an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for > example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such > is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly > interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to > control *their own* mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe > Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the > business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. > > Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in > contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that > genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is > usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense > "technic" rather than "epistemology." > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing > Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. > Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical > psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One > hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to > determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he > was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a > psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to > explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up > merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be > detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the > types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, > something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my > reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that > Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision > of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. > Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this > moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, > finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not > falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he > did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the > intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for > ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of > epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Jussi Silvonen > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM > *To:* mike cole ; eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Mike, > > > > take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of > most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a > great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. > > > > JusSi > > ---------------- > Jussi Silvonen > Dosentti > It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus > Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto > PL 111 (Metria) > 80101 Joensuu > ------------------ > https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home > > https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen > > http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ > > ------------------------------ > > *L?hett?j?:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta > *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 > *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem > of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on > "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. > For example, > > > > Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal > [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. > Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical > sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) > > > > It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and > LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, > say, 2020? > > > > And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! > > mike > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his > discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s > last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was > falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying > Andy. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of > psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of > practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such > a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but *in > one word ? psychotechnics*, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to > the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of > behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource > management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. > It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the > Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on > it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that > people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very > scarce resource. > > > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a > psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is > written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic > conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, > to aid in psychotechnic selection. > > > > Vygotsky said no. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Andy-- > > > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. > > > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of > Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's > short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had > nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human > Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical > illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could > ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound > turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology > opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? > > > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to > itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, > Aphorism 2. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as > opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this > observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think > Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in > this connection. > > Andy > > > > -- > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein > lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, > therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - > R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200116/0fbadf91/attachment.html From robsub@ariadne.org.uk Thu Jan 16 09:51:33 2020 From: robsub@ariadne.org.uk (robsub@ariadne.org.uk) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 17:51:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> Message-ID: <570be98f-0855-0ad6-1387-a0eaaeec1495@ariadne.org.uk> Does this not reflect capitalism's educational contradiction? We want to produce profitable workers who think and use their intiative to further the interests of the owners. But we don't want them to think and use their initiative when it comes to challenging the employment or environmental practices of the owners. So we construct a compromise that being able to think is a good thing as long as you think in certain highly structured ways, hence all the testing and tick boxing that surrounds education (certainly in the UK). Meanwhile we distract them wth the smoke and mirrors of consumerism. (And are failing now to come up with a distraction that will not cause the planet to burn.) Rob On 16/01/2020 16:13, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are > quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? > that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can > see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those > skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent > educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, > collaborative skills, digital skills?). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200116/21bff96a/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jan 16 15:05:37 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 10:05:37 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> Message-ID: <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? (?Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant > behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy > perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of > pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and > conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you > raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, > the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of > freedom in a whole new light. > > In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a > valid reading. > > Although I think that today?s school curricula in most > countries are quite explicit on the importance of the > ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than > on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still > the underlying assumption). You can read about those > skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very > extended in recent educational reforms (including critical > thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital > skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises > that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing > how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed > to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the > climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect > those notions of thinking with the practical > socio-economical organization of power and of the > relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now > where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of > civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in > his/her climate prediction computer models, and was > showing that these were the only variables that may have a > largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission > reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to > reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are > re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? > made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a > digression, sorry! > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of > "Glassman, Michael" > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Hi Alfredo and Andy, > > I am not sure I agree with this characterization of > behaviorism.? Especially at the time he was writing > behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the > behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head > to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide > net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this > point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist > fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this > point as not so much discussing control of individuals by > those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways > individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. > He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to > use internalized tools in order to directly control the > ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so > that they can actually play (not the right word) with > these internalized symbols before applying them. He has > not difficulty with the former, and all that is really > necessary is to be taught different applications for > limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world > the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set > of applications you might say becomes more and more > difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, > controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing > and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious > effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal > teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist > alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort > was limited to only a small population that then used > their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say > advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) > those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we > continue to do this today when we argue to educate > students for specific jobs but do not offer broader > education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training > in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we > teach people to manipulate their thinking about those > skills they will never really have control of what they do > in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky > was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map > for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can > see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. > > Michael > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Alfredo > Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Andy, all, > > Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the > opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I > teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the > most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an > emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental > bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, > including the terminology of ?control? that also > characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The > artificial control of behavior? could for example be as > well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a > social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? > over conditions for development; only that ?control? might > be a quite misleading way of posing it? > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of > Andy Blunden > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > " > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. > He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the > subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial > control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or > personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. > > Now there /is /an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. > Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science > of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an > emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested > in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to > control /their own/ mind. But this is not clear from the > above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His > writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie > detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. > > Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my > own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on > "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social > movement literature written by and for activist, which is > usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the > above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really > criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least > from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe > we should be wary of this idea of a practical > psychology that can use empirical means to look > predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece > is his mention of using practical psychology to > determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me > it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising > use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. > James brought over Musterberg in part I think to > explore the idea of empirical psychology and > Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and > practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be > detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send > psychology towards the types of practical models of > the physical sciences where it did not belong, > something that I think has plagued the field since. At > least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky > also found it confusing that Musterberg by following > James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of > psychology, that people behave in certain ways because > they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there > was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see > this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted > to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with > a material approach but not falling into a trap in > either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he > did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted > nothing to do with the intelligence testers who > combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for > ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas > Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might > fit in here). > > Michael > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf Of > *Jussi Silvonen > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM > *To:* mike cole > ; eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Mike, > > take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can > find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. > It is obvious, that M?sterberg had? a great influence > on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. > > JusSi > > ---------------- > Jussi Silvonen > Dosentti > It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus > Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto > PL 111 (Metria) > 80101 Joensuu > ------------------ > https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home > > https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen > > http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *L?hett?j?:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > k?ytt?j?n > mike cole > > puolesta > *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 > *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply > immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that > LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on > "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google > and search the term. For example, > > Psychotechnics is really a technical science related > to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as > engineering is related to physics.? Psychotechnics > necessarily refers to the future while the > psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. > (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) > > It would be interesting to stage a discussion > bertween?Munsterberg and LSV.? Which one would have > more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? > > And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! > > mike > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > > wrote: > > I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing > Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, > which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last > book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking > Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous > materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying > Andy. > > Michael > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the > fundamental problems of psychology which he > objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of > practice provided all the solutions to these > problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not > Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, > but */in one word ? psychotechnics/*, i.e., a > scientific theory which would lead to the > subordination and mastery of the mind, to the > artificial control of behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet > version of human resource management. The idea > was to select particular "types" for > particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet > idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the > Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp > at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there > was also quite a bit of emphasis on making > sure that people suited the professions chosen > for them, as education was a very scarce resource. > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a > colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; > his essay on the language of the Red Army > soldier is written with that perspective in > mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference > that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a > pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic > selection. > > Vygotsky said no. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality > of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i > > in /Mind Culture and Activity/ > > /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > / > > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. > Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: > Foundations of Pedology" > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > > wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? > Andy? > > Mike > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David > Kellogg > wrote: > > Andy-- > > That really doesn't sound like > Vygotsky to me. > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social > technique of emotion" (Psychology of > Art). Yes, he did experiments on > reading "Gentle Breath" to see if > Bunin's short story had any affect on > breathing rates. But as far as I know > he had nothing to do with Luria's work > on lie detectors (in The Nature of > Human Conflict), and he was even > rather skeptical of Luria's work on > optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied > that a general psychology could ever > cut itself off from practice and vice > versa (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected the idea > that thinking is speech with the sound > turned off (Thinking and Speech). > Besides, who ever heard of a > technology opposed to an epistemology? > What would that mean? A hand without a > brain? > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: > "Neither the hand nor the brain left > to itself can do much."? Francis > Bacon, /Novum Organum/ (1620), Book 1, > Aphorism 2. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the > originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in /Mind Culture and Activity/ > > /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > / > > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy > Blunden > wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky > talks about psychology as a > technology as opposed to (for > example) an epistemology. Can > anyone point me to where this > observation is to be found. I can > find it with my search engines. I > think Vygotsky and Luria's > invention of the lie-detector has > been mentioned in this connection. > > Andy > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > -- > > ?fiction is but a form of symbolic action, > a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its > true ?function and its potential for > effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the > research of myself and other members of > LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of > LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game > of ?as if?, therein lies its true? ?function and its > potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of > myself and other members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200117/0db26ea5/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Fri Jan 17 08:53:31 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 16:53:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> Message-ID: This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.? These days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of contextualism in a different light. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? (?Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! Alfredo From: on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Hi Alfredo and Andy, I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Andy, all, Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Mike, take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. JusSi ---------------- Jussi Silvonen Dosentti It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto PL 111 (Metria) 80101 Joensuu ------------------ https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200117/e4a66e17/attachment-0001.html From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Fri Jan 17 09:19:51 2020 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:19:51 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> Message-ID: These tests in the USA do exist in teacher training. Admission usually requires the Praxis 1. After finishing students must take the Praxis II in their subject area (multiple tests for Elementary), the Foundations of Reading Test, and now more recently Pearson's EDTPA test. Teachers take more tests to get certified than Doctors and lawyers in USA. In Connecticut, USA we noticed how these created barriers to teacher of color...So now it must be "any test" for admission which can include SAT, ACT, GRE, or Praxis. There is no longer a cut score but universities must offer "remediation" The biggest psychometric BS going on right now is in the measure of dispostions. Everyone must measure, even though not a single person or study knows how, the "professional dispositions" at multiple time points. It is utter fiction. All of this is driven by accreditation and the recent turn of blaming teacher prepprograms for low test scores among students of color. On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 3:26 AM JULIE WADDINGTON wrote: > David, > > Thank you for this. I was recently talking to a practising psychologist > friend about teacher training. The conversation led her to tell me about > efforts being made in some circles (she mentioned the national college of > psychologists) to make psychometric tests compulsory to be able to access > university teacher training: candidates deemed 'unsuitable' would be denied > access. I was very uncomfortable with this idea for many reasons. The > information you share gives me more reasons to doubt the 'usefulness' of > such tests and to worry about their potential application. > > I'll keep your reply on file in case we (those in teacher training) need > to argue the case against psychotechnic selection at some point. > > Julie > > > > > Dra. Julie Waddington > Departament de Did?ctiques Espec?fiques > Facultat d'Educaci? i Psicologia > Universitat de Girona > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *De:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > en nom de David Kellogg [dkellogg60@gmail.com] > *Enviat el:* dimecres, 15 / gener / 2020 05:09 > *Per a:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Tema:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource > management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. > It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the > Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on > it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that > people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very > scarce resource. > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a > psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is > written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic > conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, > to aid in psychotechnic selection. > > Vygotsky said no. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole wrote: > >> Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? >> Mike >> >> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> Andy-- >>> >>> That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. >>> >>> Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology >>> of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if >>> Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know >>> he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of >>> Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on >>> optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples >>> >>> . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could >>> ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in >>> Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound >>> turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology >>> opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? >>> >>> Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to >>> itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, >>> Aphorism 2. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and >>> Word" i >>> in *Mind Culture and Activity* >>> >>> *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>> * >>> Some free e-prints available at: >>> >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden >>> wrote: >>> >>>> There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology >>>> as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where >>>> this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I >>>> think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned >>>> in this connection. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> Home Page >>>> >>> -- >> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, >> therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - >> R. Ellison >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other >> members of LCHC, visit >> lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit >> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> -- J. Gregory McVerry, PhD Assistant Professor Southern Connecticut State University twitter: jgmac1106 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200117/eedc65cf/attachment.html From pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu Fri Jan 17 10:57:51 2020 From: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu (Peter Feigenbaum) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 13:57:51 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> Message-ID: Michael and Andy, If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I can help answer Michael's questions. As a long-time researcher of private (egocentric) speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally existing social system of speech communication) during child development as standing in sharp contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn biological system. But more pertinent to your discussion, by placing the source of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather than the biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary function of signs as a social means for controlling the consciousness of others. What happens during the development of private speech is that this artificially created means of social control of others passes to the child as part of the process of acquiring the system of speech communication. As a derivative of the primary function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's means of controlling his or her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's own consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh? Sorry to intervene! Carry on. Cheers, Peter On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael wrote: > This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence > ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.? These > days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict > and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most > behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that > internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he > emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to > control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you > can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a > consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of > contextualism in a different light. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: > > ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental > branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and > control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, > nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with > which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The > behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, > recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? (?Psychology as the > Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a > science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question > ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and > conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same > question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, > and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. > > > > In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. > > > > Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite > explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you > refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is > still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the > so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms > (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, > digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we > are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our > understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century > are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to > connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical > organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t > remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of > civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate > prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only > variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas > emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas > emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing > towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a > digression, sorry! > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Hi Alfredo and Andy, > > > > I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. > Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I > think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the > head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from > Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog > in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky > at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those > outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to > control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible > ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the > ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can > actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before > applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is > really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited > situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a > satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes > more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, > controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous > ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social > interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist > alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only > a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I > am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) > those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this > today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer > broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills > such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate > their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of > what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was > writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants > to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation > on Hamlet. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Andy, all, > > > > Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an > emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory > courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as > aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend > in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of > ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. > ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well > formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which > precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that > ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Andy Blunden < > andyb@marxists.org> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a > scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the > mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes > Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. > > Now there *is *an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for > example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such > is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly > interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to > control *their own* mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe > Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the > business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. > > Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in > contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that > genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is > usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense > "technic" rather than "epistemology." > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing > Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. > Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical > psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One > hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to > determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he > was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a > psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to > explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up > merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be > detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the > types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, > something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my > reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that > Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision > of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. > Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this > moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, > finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not > falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he > did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the > intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for > ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of > epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Jussi Silvonen > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM > *To:* mike cole ; eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Mike, > > > > take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of > most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a > great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. > > > > JusSi > > ---------------- > Jussi Silvonen > Dosentti > It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus > Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto > PL 111 (Metria) > 80101 Joensuu > ------------------ > https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home > > https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen > > http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ > > ------------------------------ > > *L?hett?j?:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta > *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 > *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem > of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on > "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. > For example, > > > > Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal > [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. > Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical > sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) > > > > It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and > LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, > say, 2020? > > > > And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! > > mike > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his > discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s > last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was > falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying > Andy. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of > psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of > practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such > a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but *in > one word ? psychotechnics*, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to > the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of > behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource > management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. > It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the > Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on > it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that > people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very > scarce resource. > > > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a > psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is > written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic > conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, > to aid in psychotechnic selection. > > > > Vygotsky said no. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Andy-- > > > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. > > > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of > Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's > short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had > nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human > Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical > illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could > ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound > turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology > opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? > > > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to > itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, > Aphorism 2. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as > opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this > observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think > Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in > this connection. > > Andy > > > > -- > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein > lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein > lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > -- Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. Director, Office of Institutional Research Fordham University Thebaud Hall-202 Bronx, NY 10458 Phone: (718) 817-2243 Fax: (718) 817-3817 email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200117/07bdf79a/attachment.html From haydizulfei@gmail.com Sat Jan 18 02:10:41 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 13:40:41 +0330 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> Message-ID: Michael, As Andy is late in responding , I seek his and your permission to intervene. Andy is quite right with the Quote. Please pay attention to these terms : purely objective , of natural science , no introspectionist Wundt , therefore , nor validity of the data acquisition in terms of consciousness , no dividing line between man and brute as the consequence of efforts to get a nunitary scheme of animal response. Now with these explicit criteria and yardsticks , how can we interpret the ?theoretical goal as the prediction and control of *human* behavior?? Does this not mean the same response of the knee jerk by the stimulus of the stroke of the hammer upon the limb? Of course , it is a control type but by no means a human control type. I suppose control here means the very definition of subordinating the human by the conditioned stimuli in contrast to the unconditioned ones (knee jerk). Maximally you condition a human?s response (behavior) by resorting to means such as showing/signaling him similar or dissimilar stimuli. It is just for him to act accordingly in the absence of any aim , purpose , or intentionality or will. Because these are not things to pick up from the Ecology. Now you did a good job of talking about ?ecology? as the context in which thoughts come into being. And you doubt if there are two processes involved one of ecology with actual tools , the other ecology with the derived ones. I think nowadays we cannot think of consciousness and discourse and the dialectics between them and the ecology as the way Marx depicts in German Ideology as taking it as the ways to eat , to shelter (dwelling) and to clothe. I think , yes , it?s the very consequence of the initial migration which is used dialectically on a reverse journey to affect the ecology in turn. If I?m right in my assumption that Vygotsky is influenced by Marx , he knows that the externals are not the whole thing. He knows about Hegel?s Appearance and Essence and that he should have assimilated it to his process of theorization. In the external we sense and perceive. It?s our first round of cognition. Then , it?s in the consequences of the analysis of these externals into thoughts which possibilities arise that enable us to extract those of the features of the externals that are not just superficially similar but necessarily and essentially indispensable to the process of the true cognition of those externalities. The final stage is for us to synthesize these necessaries and essentials to then acquire Unity in Diversity , that is , to cognize an object as a whole , as a concrete universal in thought. All the best Haydi On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 8:27 PM Glassman, Michael wrote: > This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence > ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.? These > days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict > and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most > behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that > internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he > emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to > control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you > can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a > consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of > contextualism in a different light. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: > > ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental > branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and > control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, > nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with > which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The > behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, > recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? (?Psychology as the > Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a > science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question > ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and > conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same > question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, > and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. > > > > In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. > > > > Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite > explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you > refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is > still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the > so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms > (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, > digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we > are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our > understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century > are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to > connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical > organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t > remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of > civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate > prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only > variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas > emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas > emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing > towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a > digression, sorry! > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Hi Alfredo and Andy, > > > > I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. > Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I > think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the > head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from > Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog > in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky > at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those > outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to > control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible > ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the > ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can > actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before > applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is > really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited > situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a > satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes > more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, > controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous > ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social > interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist > alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only > a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I > am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) > those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this > today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer > broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills > such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate > their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of > what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was > writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants > to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation > on Hamlet. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Andy, all, > > > > Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an > emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory > courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as > aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend > in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of > ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. > ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well > formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which > precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that > ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Andy Blunden < > andyb@marxists.org> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a > scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the > mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes > Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. > > Now there *is *an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for > example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such > is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly > interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to > control *their own* mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe > Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the > business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. > > Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in > contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that > genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is > usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense > "technic" rather than "epistemology." > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing > Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. > Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical > psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One > hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to > determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he > was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a > psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to > explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up > merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be > detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the > types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, > something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my > reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that > Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision > of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. > Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this > moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, > finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not > falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he > did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the > intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for > ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of > epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Jussi Silvonen > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM > *To:* mike cole ; eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Mike, > > > > take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of > most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a > great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. > > > > JusSi > > ---------------- > Jussi Silvonen > Dosentti > It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus > Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto > PL 111 (Metria) > 80101 Joensuu > ------------------ > https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home > > https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen > > http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ > > ------------------------------ > > *L?hett?j?:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta > *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 > *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem > of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on > "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. > For example, > > > > Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal > [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. > Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical > sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) > > > > It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and > LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, > say, 2020? > > > > And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! > > mike > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his > discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s > last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was > falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying > Andy. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of > psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of > practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such > a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but *in > one word ? psychotechnics*, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to > the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of > behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource > management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. > It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the > Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on > it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that > people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very > scarce resource. > > > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a > psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is > written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic > conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, > to aid in psychotechnic selection. > > > > Vygotsky said no. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Andy-- > > > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. > > > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of > Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's > short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had > nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human > Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical > illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could > ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound > turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology > opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? > > > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to > itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, > Aphorism 2. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as > opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this > observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think > Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in > this connection. > > Andy > > > > -- > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein > lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein > lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200118/0ba5fd33/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Sat Jan 18 04:33:33 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 12:33:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> Message-ID: <362B9519-6B85-49CB-8294-EBDB1A666544@uio.no> Hi Haydi, I am not sure if I understand what you mean entirely, specially when I arrive at your assertion that I ?talk of free development as though it can be achieved in a vacuum and in the air?? which I am not sure if you are addressing to my prior post; certainly not what I was aiming to do. In any case, to take up some of the threads I gather from your e-mail, I?d say we can assert the issues of control about behaviourism without rejecting the notion of conditions as false or unnecessary. As I said, the issue of behaviourism and of controlling others is a question of pedagogy to me; of how you organize education and development, as practice, based on that epistemology. Not that pedagogy itself can or could exist without conditions or conditionings. I think what is interesting is the constrains and affordances that come with different approaches as theoretical technologies or economies (as means for organizing activity), and what forms of activity open up when you consider other approaches. I know, for example, some scholars (e.g., A. Surmava) who argue that the whole theory of Vygotsky is constrained by having initially accepted the S-R scheme as the starting point (adding the third element of cultural mediation in the famous triangle), when that initial scheme itself may be questioned as an adequate characterization of the most basic principle of life to take as starting point. Best wishes, Alfredo From: on behalf of Haydi Zulfei Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 18:39 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Alfredo, I?m just concentrating on your own word whether borrowed or created. How is behaviorism the science of controlling people? The science which allows people to salivate without control , lead their lives just by associations which function is carried out by second signals as the ringtone functions as the Real food. Is that what you mean? I might have forgotten Vygotsky and Leontiev. But from what I can take from your own saying , it seems that the reverse might be the case. Because we reject behaviorism as it does not go far beyond sensation and perception to reach true cognition. And as we are talking about sciences , we should be familiar with how concepts and categories are acquired. How we ascend from the abstract to the concrete. How we form ideas , concepts and categories by our acting on the World .That will take us to the concepts of necessity and freedom. Vygotsky has much to say how actuality leads to concepts. We cry of not being able to have control over our chaotic behavior ; therefore we seek shelter in goal-oriented activities. Actions conduit not unbridled. But in this you again see defects , conditions! How can one conduct an action without being involved in Conditions (Ecology you say , OK.) ? Conditions in the language of philosophy becomes Necessity which concept Vygotsky likes and spends times to clarify its coming into being and this is the niceties of Vygotsky?s work. One might take thought into word as one direct line from external to internal. How energetic he was to see how it shapes and it what phases and stages! He takes the blocks as real things yet unrecognized or not gone through stages of true cognition. If there are not blocks with properties , ideas are not created and blocks are conditioned in quasi-real life circumstance (first abstraction from the real life situation) as commodities act as units of analysis in Capital. You , friend , talk of free development as though it can be achieved in vacuum and in the air. Right now our unit of analysis in our current science is that Bernie Sanders? Medicare is in the Senate. If we say this unit involves the whole world , we have not overestimated it. I hope some great scholar won?t ask me if I?m weaving politics or knowledge! Conditions come their own way out of our checks and controls. Freedom is on the ground not in the air. How to know the shackles and how to change their ways or how to remove them altogether. All the best Haydi On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:45 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! Alfredo From: > on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Hi Alfredo and Andy, I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Andy, all, Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Mike, take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. JusSi ---------------- Jussi Silvonen Dosentti It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto PL 111 (Metria) 80101 Joensuu ------------------ https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200118/16b4a7fe/attachment.html From haydizulfei@gmail.com Sat Jan 18 08:41:16 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 20:11:16 +0330 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <362B9519-6B85-49CB-8294-EBDB1A666544@uio.no> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <362B9519-6B85-49CB-8294-EBDB1A666544@uio.no> Message-ID: Andy, all, *1*Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. *2*I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, *3*although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of*4* ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be *5*as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which *6*precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; *7*only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? Alfredo, This is what I replied to. Sorry I pressed the wrong button to reply therefore you?re in doubt which of your posts I was replying to. You?re right. 1I wonder if the matter for you is the preference of one science over the other or that you take both of them as complementary ones in your pedagogical courses. On either case , I wouldn?t think Vygotsky is on your side with Behaviorism on what I explained in both my messages. If there?s vagueness in my argument in this respect , please refer to them verbatim. 2 says Vygotsky?s science brings up emancipation. 3 says ?the instrumental bend? , as you take it , is the obstacle in the process of emancipation. What?s this ?instrumental bend?. It seems you?re referring to the periodic divisions in Vygotsky?s career which is not one but several. 4 gives us a clear example of the instrumental bend as the ?terminology of control?. Then , we have the concept of ?control? in both Behaviorism and Emancipatory science. In the latter case you don?t like it. With 5 [as well] we also understand what you cannot come into terms with is the ?artificial control of behavior? generally even when we pose for the choice of the emancipatory science. I think here is where we can find the knot. Why is the object-oriented activity an obstacle in the way to development. And whether Vygotsky wholly even in his thinking and speech rejects this approach? What about his formation of concepts? What about his final part in thinking and speech where he emphasizes he , in fact , should have chosen a reverse order. That have always taken me to his unread work , that is , the Book of Praxis and Thought. which 6precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; 7only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? I very much like to see if this gaining CONTROL over CONDITIONS FOR DEVELOPMENT means control-free development is favorable or non-control-free development is favorable on dear Alfredo?s view. But the terms ?only? and ?quite misleading? might come to the rescue. You assert ?conditions for development? but you?d like them to be free of such controls. Then when I say freedom is on the Earth not in the air , I refer you to the Origins and watersheds and genetics of Thoughts. Long ago I read your editorial. There was Marx. But I think Felix Mikhailov?s Marx. If you have any advice for me to read Marx again to see if practical activity with conscious goals is obstacle to free development or conditions for development (in which case you should be kind enough to clarify what those conditions are which seem favorable to you which you don?t like them to be fettered by ?controls?) please say what source. This is just a prelude to what I wrote previously not concentrating much on your new post. High regards and best wishes Haydi On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 4:05 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Hi Haydi, > > > > I am not sure if I understand what you mean entirely, specially when I > arrive at your assertion that I ?talk of free development as though it can > be achieved in a vacuum and in the air?? which I am not sure if you are > addressing to my prior post; certainly not what I was aiming to do. In any > case, to take up some of the threads I gather from your e-mail, I?d say we > can assert the issues of control about behaviourism without rejecting the > notion of conditions as false or unnecessary. As I said, the issue of > behaviourism and of controlling others is a question of pedagogy to me; of > how you organize education and development, as practice, based on that > epistemology. Not that pedagogy itself can or could exist without > conditions or conditionings. I think what is interesting is the constrains > and affordances that come with different approaches as theoretical > technologies or economies (as means for organizing activity), and what > forms of activity open up when you consider other approaches. > > > > I know, for example, some scholars (e.g., A. Surmava) who argue that the > whole theory of Vygotsky is constrained by having initially accepted the > S-R scheme as the starting point (adding the third element of cultural > mediation in the famous triangle), when that initial scheme itself may be > questioned as an adequate characterization of the most basic principle of > life to take as starting point. > > Best wishes, > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of Haydi Zulfei < > haydizulfei@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 18:39 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Alfredo, > > I?m just concentrating on your own word whether borrowed or created. How > is behaviorism the science of controlling people? > > The science which allows people to salivate without control , lead their > lives just by associations which function is carried out by second signals > as the ringtone functions as the Real food. Is that what you mean? > > I might have forgotten Vygotsky and Leontiev. But from what I can take > from your own saying , it seems that the reverse might be the case. Because > we reject behaviorism as it does not go far beyond sensation and perception > to reach true cognition. And as we are talking about sciences , we should > be familiar with how concepts and categories are acquired. How we ascend > from the abstract to the concrete. How we form ideas , concepts and > categories by our acting on the World .That will take us to the concepts of > necessity and freedom. Vygotsky has much to say how actuality leads to > concepts. We cry of not being able to have control over our chaotic > behavior ; therefore we seek shelter in goal-oriented activities. Actions > conduit not unbridled. > > But in this you again see defects , conditions! How can one conduct an > action without being involved in Conditions (Ecology you say , OK.) ? > Conditions in the language of philosophy becomes Necessity which concept > Vygotsky likes and spends times to clarify its coming into being and this > is the niceties of Vygotsky?s work. One might take thought into word as one > direct line from external to internal. How energetic he was to see how it > shapes and it what phases and stages! He takes the blocks as real things > yet unrecognized or not gone through stages of true cognition. If there are > not blocks with properties , ideas are not created and blocks are > conditioned in quasi-real life circumstance (first abstraction from the > real life situation) as commodities act as units of analysis in Capital. > > You , friend , talk of free development as though it can be achieved in > vacuum and in the air. Right now our unit of analysis in our current > science is that Bernie Sanders? Medicare is in the Senate. If we say this > unit involves the whole world , we have not overestimated it. I hope some > great scholar won?t ask me if I?m weaving politics or knowledge! > > Conditions come their own way out of our checks and controls. Freedom is > on the ground not in the air. How to know the shackles and how to change > their ways or how to remove them altogether. > > All the best > > Haydi > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:45 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a > science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question > ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and > conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same > question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, > and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. > > > > In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. > > > > Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite > explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you > refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is > still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the > so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms > (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, > digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we > are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our > understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century > are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to > connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical > organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t > remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of > civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate > prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only > variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas > emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas > emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing > towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a > digression, sorry! > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of "Glassman, > Michael" > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Hi Alfredo and Andy, > > > > I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. > Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I > think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the > head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from > Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog > in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky > at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those > outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to > control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible > ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the > ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can > actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before > applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is > really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited > situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a > satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes > more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, > controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous > ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social > interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist > alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only > a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I > am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) > those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this > today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer > broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills > such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate > their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of > what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was > writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants > to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation > on Hamlet. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Andy, all, > > > > Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an > emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory > courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as > aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend > in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of > ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. > ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well > formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which > precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that > ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Andy Blunden < > andyb@marxists.org> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a > scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the > mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes > Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. > > Now there *is *an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for > example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such > is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly > interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to > control *their own* mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe > Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the > business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. > > Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in > contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that > genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is > usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense > "technic" rather than "epistemology." > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing > Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. > Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical > psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One > hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to > determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he > was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a > psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to > explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up > merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be > detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the > types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, > something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my > reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that > Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision > of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. > Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this > moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, > finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not > falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he > did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the > intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for > ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of > epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Jussi Silvonen > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM > *To:* mike cole ; eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Mike, > > > > take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of > most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a > great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. > > > > JusSi > > ---------------- > Jussi Silvonen > Dosentti > It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus > Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto > PL 111 (Metria) > 80101 Joensuu > ------------------ > https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home > > https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen > > http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ > > ------------------------------ > > *L?hett?j?:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta > *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 > *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem > of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on > "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. > For example, > > > > Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal > [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. > Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical > sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) > > > > It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and > LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, > say, 2020? > > > > And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! > > mike > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his > discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s > last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was > falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying > Andy. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of > psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of > practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such > a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but *in > one word ? psychotechnics*, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to > the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of > behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource > management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. > It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the > Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on > it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that > people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very > scarce resource. > > > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a > psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is > written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic > conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, > to aid in psychotechnic selection. > > > > Vygotsky said no. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Andy-- > > > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. > > > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of > Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's > short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had > nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human > Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical > illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could > ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound > turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology > opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? > > > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to > itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, > Aphorism 2. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as > opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this > observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think > Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in > this connection. > > Andy > > > > -- > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein > lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, > therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - > R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200118/4f6e140e/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Sat Jan 18 12:06:49 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 20:06:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <362B9519-6B85-49CB-8294-EBDB1A666544@uio.no> Message-ID: Hello Haydi and Alfredo, The way it seems to me we have two basic choices about humans. Humans either are or they become. If they are then reactions, capabilities are innate. If they become then these reactions and capabilities are in reaction to the ecology (stimulus unless somebody has a better concept). I see Vygotsky falling in to the same category. This existential question is who controls the stimulus response feedback look. Two individuals can give the same response to a stimulus and that the feedback is completely different means the ecological feedback has great power in determining our responses. Vygotsky?s first step, it seems to me, is to agree with Kohler. Non-humans to not have the ability to remember responses to stimulus which gives them limited control over their ecology. If I give you an apple on Tuesday and you give me five dollars it is a great advantage to know that if I give you an apple on Thursday you will give me another five dollars. Vygotsky hypothesized a set of external moving to internal tools for this (semiotic mediation) but I think that is an idea he was using to explain the process but it was not basic to what he was after. As we move to a more modern society we begin to recognize that we not only remember how to react to different stimulus, but with the right reactions we have the ability to control the stimulus and therefore manipulate the stimulus response loop. In other words more power is given to the responder. I plant wheat in a field. It does not grow. I respond by not planting wheat anymore. But what if I ask my neighbor and he tells me he was successful on a field on the other side of the mountain. I don?t own any fields on the other side of the mountain but I go look at them and figure out what they have (maybe streams running down from a mountain). So I look for fields with a similar water supply. People who are able to use their thinking as a tool in this way have a great advantage. Of course there is no way this would naturally come from interacting with the environment. You could not learn this type of control of your thinking just through natural stimulus response patterns. But even here I don?t think this is what Vygotsky was really after. Then what. I think you find it in his critique of Piaget. Vygotsky agrees with Piaget (really I think this tribalism has really hurt education, thinking epistemology). His big critique I think is why Piaget things the change in thinking (from concrete to more abstract) would happen at all. People do not naturally embrace conflict and change. It would be easiest for the farmer to just give up on planting wheat. I would be easiest for the neighbor to not mention the fields on the other side of the mountain (would you?). What is the mechanism, what causes this to happen? I think this is where Vygotsky started his search and it is where he (unfortunately much too early) ended it. So I question whether it is right to say behaviorism is about prediction and control and Vygotsky theory is not. Unless the theory is completely idealistic there is going to be some element of prediction and control in human behavior. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Haydi Zulfei Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2020 11:41 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Andy, all, 1Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. 2I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, 3although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of4 ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be 5as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which 6precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; 7only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? Alfredo, This is what I replied to. Sorry I pressed the wrong button to reply therefore you?re in doubt which of your posts I was replying to. You?re right. 1I wonder if the matter for you is the preference of one science over the other or that you take both of them as complementary ones in your pedagogical courses. On either case , I wouldn?t think Vygotsky is on your side with Behaviorism on what I explained in both my messages. If there?s vagueness in my argument in this respect , please refer to them verbatim. 2 says Vygotsky?s science brings up emancipation. 3 says ?the instrumental bend? , as you take it , is the obstacle in the process of emancipation. What?s this ?instrumental bend?. It seems you?re referring to the periodic divisions in Vygotsky?s career which is not one but several. 4 gives us a clear example of the instrumental bend as the ?terminology of control?. Then , we have the concept of ?control? in both Behaviorism and Emancipatory science. In the latter case you don?t like it. With 5 [as well] we also understand what you cannot come into terms with is the ?artificial control of behavior? generally even when we pose for the choice of the emancipatory science. I think here is where we can find the knot. Why is the object-oriented activity an obstacle in the way to development. And whether Vygotsky wholly even in his thinking and speech rejects this approach? What about his formation of concepts? What about his final part in thinking and speech where he emphasizes he , in fact , should have chosen a reverse order. That have always taken me to his unread work , that is , the Book of Praxis and Thought. which 6precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; 7only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? I very much like to see if this gaining CONTROL over CONDITIONS FOR DEVELOPMENT means control-free development is favorable or non-control-free development is favorable on dear Alfredo?s view. But the terms ?only? and ?quite misleading? might come to the rescue. You assert ?conditions for development? but you?d like them to be free of such controls. Then when I say freedom is on the Earth not in the air , I refer you to the Origins and watersheds and genetics of Thoughts. Long ago I read your editorial. There was Marx. But I think Felix Mikhailov?s Marx. If you have any advice for me to read Marx again to see if practical activity with conscious goals is obstacle to free development or conditions for development (in which case you should be kind enough to clarify what those conditions are which seem favorable to you which you don?t like them to be fettered by ?controls?) please say what source. This is just a prelude to what I wrote previously not concentrating much on your new post. High regards and best wishes Haydi On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 4:05 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: Hi Haydi, I am not sure if I understand what you mean entirely, specially when I arrive at your assertion that I ?talk of free development as though it can be achieved in a vacuum and in the air?? which I am not sure if you are addressing to my prior post; certainly not what I was aiming to do. In any case, to take up some of the threads I gather from your e-mail, I?d say we can assert the issues of control about behaviourism without rejecting the notion of conditions as false or unnecessary. As I said, the issue of behaviourism and of controlling others is a question of pedagogy to me; of how you organize education and development, as practice, based on that epistemology. Not that pedagogy itself can or could exist without conditions or conditionings. I think what is interesting is the constrains and affordances that come with different approaches as theoretical technologies or economies (as means for organizing activity), and what forms of activity open up when you consider other approaches. I know, for example, some scholars (e.g., A. Surmava) who argue that the whole theory of Vygotsky is constrained by having initially accepted the S-R scheme as the starting point (adding the third element of cultural mediation in the famous triangle), when that initial scheme itself may be questioned as an adequate characterization of the most basic principle of life to take as starting point. Best wishes, Alfredo From: > on behalf of Haydi Zulfei > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 18:39 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Alfredo, I?m just concentrating on your own word whether borrowed or created. How is behaviorism the science of controlling people? The science which allows people to salivate without control , lead their lives just by associations which function is carried out by second signals as the ringtone functions as the Real food. Is that what you mean? I might have forgotten Vygotsky and Leontiev. But from what I can take from your own saying , it seems that the reverse might be the case. Because we reject behaviorism as it does not go far beyond sensation and perception to reach true cognition. And as we are talking about sciences , we should be familiar with how concepts and categories are acquired. How we ascend from the abstract to the concrete. How we form ideas , concepts and categories by our acting on the World .That will take us to the concepts of necessity and freedom. Vygotsky has much to say how actuality leads to concepts. We cry of not being able to have control over our chaotic behavior ; therefore we seek shelter in goal-oriented activities. Actions conduit not unbridled. But in this you again see defects , conditions! How can one conduct an action without being involved in Conditions (Ecology you say , OK.) ? Conditions in the language of philosophy becomes Necessity which concept Vygotsky likes and spends times to clarify its coming into being and this is the niceties of Vygotsky?s work. One might take thought into word as one direct line from external to internal. How energetic he was to see how it shapes and it what phases and stages! He takes the blocks as real things yet unrecognized or not gone through stages of true cognition. If there are not blocks with properties , ideas are not created and blocks are conditioned in quasi-real life circumstance (first abstraction from the real life situation) as commodities act as units of analysis in Capital. You , friend , talk of free development as though it can be achieved in vacuum and in the air. Right now our unit of analysis in our current science is that Bernie Sanders? Medicare is in the Senate. If we say this unit involves the whole world , we have not overestimated it. I hope some great scholar won?t ask me if I?m weaving politics or knowledge! Conditions come their own way out of our checks and controls. Freedom is on the ground not in the air. How to know the shackles and how to change their ways or how to remove them altogether. All the best Haydi On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:45 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! Alfredo From: > on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Hi Alfredo and Andy, I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Andy, all, Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Mike, take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. JusSi ---------------- Jussi Silvonen Dosentti It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto PL 111 (Metria) 80101 Joensuu ------------------ https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200118/66508226/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sat Jan 18 12:32:19 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 15:32:19 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> Message-ID: <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread here, but something that has puzzled me for some time is this. If someone becomes able to control their own behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can engage in self-control in order to do something completely new, something that transforms their own ecology and opens up new possibilities for themselves and other people. True. But equally, a child can engage in self-control in order to do precisely what their caregiver (or their government) wants and tells them to do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both examples of ?executive function?? Are they both occasions of the higher psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)? Puzzled... Martin > On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum wrote: > > Michael and Andy, > > If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I can help answer Michael's questions. As a long-time researcher of private (egocentric) speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally existing social system of speech communication) during child development as standing in sharp contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn biological system. But more pertinent to your discussion, by placing the source of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather than the biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary function of signs as a social means for controlling the consciousness of others. What happens during the development of private speech is that this artificially created means of social control of others passes to the child as part of the process of acquiring the system of speech communication. As a derivative of the primary function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's means of controlling his or her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's own consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh? > > Sorry to intervene! Carry on. > > Cheers, > Peter > > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.? These days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of contextualism in a different light. > > > > Michael > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: > > ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? (?Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. > > > > In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. > > > > Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! > > > > Alfredo > > From: on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Hi Alfredo and Andy, > > > > I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. > > > > Michael > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Andy, all, > > > > Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? > > > > Alfredo > > > > From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 > To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu " > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. > > Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. > > Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). > > > > Michael > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM > To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Mike, > > > > take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org ), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. > > > > JusSi > > ---------------- > Jussi Silvonen > Dosentti > It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus > Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto > PL 111 (Metria) > 80101 Joensuu > ------------------ > https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home > https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen > http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ > L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta > L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 > Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, > > > > Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) > > > > It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? > > > > And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! > > mike > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. > > > > Michael > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. > > > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. > > > > Vygotsky said no. > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i > > in Mind Culture and Activity > > https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Andy-- > > > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. > > > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? > > > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. > > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i > > in Mind Culture and Activity > > https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. > > Andy > > > > -- > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu . For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visitlchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > > > > > > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu . For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > > > > > > > -- > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > Director, > Office of Institutional Research > Fordham University > Thebaud Hall-202 > Bronx, NY 10458 > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200118/bdd70f7b/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jan 18 12:41:52 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 12:41:52 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> Message-ID: Exactly the same question Orwell posed in *1984* As I recall, Winston needed gin in addition to torture to get rid of his inability to not remember. *Mike* On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:35 PM Martin Packer wrote: > Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread here, but something > that has puzzled me for some time is this. If someone becomes able to > control their own behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can > engage in self-control in order to do something completely new, something > that transforms their own ecology and opens up new possibilities for > themselves and other people. True. But equally, a child can engage in > self-control in order to do precisely what their caregiver (or their > government) wants and tells them to do. Are these both emancipatory? Are > these both examples of ?executive function?? Are they both occasions of the > higher psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)? > > Puzzled... > > Martin > > > On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum > wrote: > > Michael and Andy, > > If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I can help answer > Michael's questions. As a long-time researcher of private (egocentric) > speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement inward > of signs (or, more precisely, the externally existing social system of > speech communication) during child development as standing in sharp > contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn > biological system. But more pertinent to your discussion, by placing the > source of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather than the > biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary function of signs as > a social means for controlling the consciousness of others. What happens > during the development of private speech is that this artificially created > means of social control of others passes to the child as part of the > process of acquiring the system of speech communication. As a derivative of > the primary function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's means of > controlling his or her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's own > consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh? > > Sorry to intervene! Carry on. > > Cheers, > Peter > > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > >> This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence >> ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.? These >> days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict >> and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most >> behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that >> internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he >> emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to >> control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you >> can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a >> consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of >> contextualism in a different light. >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >> *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: >> >> ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective >> experimental branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the >> prediction and control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part >> of its methods, nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the >> readiness with which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of >> consciousness. The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of >> animal response, recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? >> (?Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a >> science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question >> ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and >> conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same >> question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, >> and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. >> >> >> >> In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. >> >> >> >> Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are >> quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that >> you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is >> still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the >> so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms >> (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, >> digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we >> are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our >> understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century >> are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to >> connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical >> organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t >> remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of >> civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate >> prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only >> variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas >> emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas >> emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing >> towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a >> digression, sorry! >> >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: * >> on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" >> >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> Hi Alfredo and Andy, >> >> >> >> I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. >> Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I >> think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the >> head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from >> Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog >> in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky >> at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those >> outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to >> control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible >> ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the >> ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can >> actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before >> applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is >> really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited >> situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a >> satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes >> more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, >> controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous >> ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social >> interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist >> alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only >> a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I >> am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) >> those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this >> today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer >> broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills >> such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate >> their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of >> what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was >> writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants >> to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation >> on Hamlet. >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil >> *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> Andy, all, >> >> >> >> Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an >> emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory >> courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as >> aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend >> in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of >> ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. >> ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well >> formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which >> precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that >> ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? >> >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> >> >> *From: * on behalf of Andy Blunden < >> andyb@marxists.org> >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 >> *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a >> scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the >> mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes >> Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. >> >> Now there *is *an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for >> example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such >> is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly >> interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to >> control *their own* mind. But this is not clear from the above, and >> maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the >> business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. >> >> Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in >> contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that >> genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is >> usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense >> "technic" rather than "epistemology." >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: >> >> I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing >> Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. >> Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical >> psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One >> hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to >> determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he >> was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a >> psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to >> explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up >> merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be >> detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the >> types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, >> something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my >> reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that >> Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision >> of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. >> Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this >> moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, >> finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not >> falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he >> did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the >> intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for >> ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of >> epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Jussi Silvonen >> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM >> *To:* mike cole ; eXtended Mind, >> Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> Mike, >> >> >> >> take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of >> most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a >> great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. >> >> >> >> JusSi >> >> ---------------- >> Jussi Silvonen >> Dosentti >> It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus >> Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto >> PL 111 (Metria) >> 80101 Joensuu >> ------------------ >> https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home >> >> https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen >> >> http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *L?hett?j?:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> k?ytt?j?n mike cole >> puolesta >> *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 >> *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity < >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> >> *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the >> problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick >> take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search >> the term. For example, >> >> >> >> Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal >> [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. >> Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical >> sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) >> >> >> >> It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and >> LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, >> say, 2020? >> >> >> >> And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! >> >> mike >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael >> wrote: >> >> I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his >> discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s >> last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was >> falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying >> Andy. >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> This is what I was looking for: >> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 >> >> >> It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of >> psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of >> practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such >> a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but *in >> one word ? psychotechnics*, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead >> to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of >> behaviour." >> >> Thanks all. >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource >> management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. >> It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the >> Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on >> it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that >> people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very >> scarce resource. >> >> >> >> Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a >> psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is >> written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic >> conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, >> to aid in psychotechnic selection. >> >> >> >> Vygotsky said no. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> >> >> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and >> Word" i >> >> in *Mind Culture and Activity* >> >> *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> * >> >> Some free e-prints available at: >> >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> >> >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works >> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> >> >> >> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole wrote: >> >> Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> Andy-- >> >> >> >> That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. >> >> >> >> Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of >> Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's >> short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had >> nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human >> Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical >> illusions in "uneducated" peoples >> >> >> >> . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could >> ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in >> Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound >> turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology >> opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? >> >> >> >> Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to >> itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, >> Aphorism 2. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> >> >> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and >> Word" i >> >> in *Mind Culture and Activity* >> >> *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> * >> >> Some free e-prints available at: >> >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology >> as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where >> this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I >> think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned >> in this connection. >> >> Andy >> >> >> >> -- >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> -- >> >> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, >> therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - >> R. Ellison >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other >> members of LCHC, visit >> >> lchc.ucsd.edu >> . >> For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit >> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, >> therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - >> R. Ellison >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other >> members of LCHC, visit >> >> lchc.ucsd.edu >> . >> For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit >> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > Director, > Office of Institutional Research > > Fordham University > Thebaud Hall-202 > Bronx, NY 10458 > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200118/6fafc025/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Sat Jan 18 12:48:14 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 20:48:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> Message-ID: <08908D12-D176-4D4A-B4E6-28A438D215C9@uio.no> Martin, (just catched your post quickly), I think your example makes it quite clear that self control and emancipation are not the same, right? Rhat is sort of what I was getting into when a few posts ago I pointed out that a lot of the meta-cognition and critical thinking etc? has made it to mainstream education for a good while now, including the so-called 21st century skills, and yet, I would not consider much of what is done in formal education (and much of what is raised in educational research) as having that ?higher? moral character implied in the notion of emancipation (not to free oneself from conditions, which I think is what Haydi is getting at), and apparently much of what has been taught hasn?t been very useful for surviving the 21st century? Haydi, thanks for your careful response and patience. Michael, what you just wrote (about being vs becoming), which is very much to the point, reminded me of Ortega y Gasset?s: ?The only thing that is given to us and that is when there is human life is the having to make it ? Life is a task? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:37 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread here, but something that has puzzled me for some time is this. If someone becomes able to control their own behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can engage in self-control in order to do something completely new, something that transforms their own ecology and opens up new possibilities for themselves and other people. True. But equally, a child can engage in self-control in order to do precisely what their caregiver (or their government) wants and tells them to do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both examples of ?executive function?? Are they both occasions of the higher psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)? Puzzled... Martin On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum > wrote: Michael and Andy, If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I can help answer Michael's questions. As a long-time researcher of private (egocentric) speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally existing social system of speech communication) during child development as standing in sharp contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn biological system. But more pertinent to your discussion, by placing the source of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather than the biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary function of signs as a social means for controlling the consciousness of others. What happens during the development of private speech is that this artificially created means of social control of others passes to the child as part of the process of acquiring the system of speech communication. As a derivative of the primary function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's means of controlling his or her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's own consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh? Sorry to intervene! Carry on. Cheers, Peter On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.? These days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of contextualism in a different light. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? (?Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! Alfredo From: on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Hi Alfredo and Andy, I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Andy, all, Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Mike, take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. JusSi ---------------- Jussi Silvonen Dosentti It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto PL 111 (Metria) 80101 Joensuu ------------------ https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. Director, Office of Institutional Research Fordham University Thebaud Hall-202 Bronx, NY 10458 Phone: (718) 817-2243 Fax: (718) 817-3817 email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200118/e7b61fa5/attachment.html From ewall@umich.edu Sat Jan 18 13:51:00 2020 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 15:51:00 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> Message-ID: <96008145-1385-4492-B578-F83E5A222AF7@umich.edu> ?May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.? ? Nelson Mandela Ed > On Jan 18, 2020, at 2:41 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Exactly the same question Orwell posed in 1984 > As I recall, Winston needed gin in addition to torture to get rid of his inability to not remember. > > Mike > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:35 PM Martin Packer > wrote: > Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread here, but something that has puzzled me for some time is this. If someone becomes able to control their own behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can engage in self-control in order to do something completely new, something that transforms their own ecology and opens up new possibilities for themselves and other people. True. But equally, a child can engage in self-control in order to do precisely what their caregiver (or their government) wants and tells them to do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both examples of ?executive function?? Are they both occasions of the higher psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)? > > Puzzled... > > Martin > > >> On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum > wrote: >> >> Michael and Andy, >> >> If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I can help answer Michael's questions. As a long-time researcher of private (egocentric) speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally existing social system of speech communication) during child development as standing in sharp contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn biological system. But more pertinent to your discussion, by placing the source of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather than the biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary function of signs as a social means for controlling the consciousness of others. What happens during the development of private speech is that this artificially created means of social control of others passes to the child as part of the process of acquiring the system of speech communication. As a derivative of the primary function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's means of controlling his or her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's own consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh? >> >> Sorry to intervene! Carry on. >> >> Cheers, >> Peter >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: >> This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.? These days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of contextualism in a different light. >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM >> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: >> >> ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? (?Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) >> >> Andy >> >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. >> >> >> >> In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. >> >> >> >> Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! >> >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> From: on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" >> Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> Hi Alfredo and Andy, >> >> >> >> I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil >> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> Andy, all, >> >> >> >> Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? >> >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> >> >> From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > >> Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >> Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 >> To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu " > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. >> >> Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. >> >> Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." >> >> Andy >> >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: >> >> I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen >> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM >> To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> Mike, >> >> >> >> take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org ), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. >> >> >> >> JusSi >> >> ---------------- >> Jussi Silvonen >> Dosentti >> It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus >> Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto >> PL 111 (Metria) >> 80101 Joensuu >> ------------------ >> https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home >> https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen >> http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ >> L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta >> L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 >> Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, >> >> >> >> Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) >> >> >> >> It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? >> >> >> >> And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! >> >> mike >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: >> >> I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM >> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> >> >> This is what I was looking for: >> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 >> It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." >> >> Thanks all. >> Andy >> >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. >> >> >> >> Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. >> >> >> >> Vygotsky said no. >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> >> >> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i >> >> in Mind Culture and Activity >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> Some free e-prints available at: >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >> >> >> >> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: >> >> Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: >> >> Andy-- >> >> >> >> That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. >> >> >> >> Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples >> >> >> >> . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? >> >> >> >> Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> >> >> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i >> >> in Mind Culture and Activity >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> Some free e-prints available at: >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: >> >> There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. >> >> Andy >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> -- >> >> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit >> >> lchc.ucsd.edu . For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit >> >> lchc.ucsd.edu . For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> -- >> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. >> Director, >> Office of Institutional Research >> Fordham University >> Thebaud Hall-202 >> Bronx, NY 10458 >> >> Phone: (718) 817-2243 >> Fax: (718) 817-3817 >> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > -- > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu . For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200118/ef40f975/attachment-0001.html From andyb@marxists.org Sat Jan 18 14:50:23 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 09:50:23 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <08908D12-D176-4D4A-B4E6-28A438D215C9@uio.no> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> <08908D12-D176-4D4A-B4E6-28A438D215C9@uio.no> Message-ID: <15381ef1-f960-29ba-3e8e-3b632c791210@marxists.org> 'Emancipation' is a broader and more concrete concept than 'control' or 'self-control'. I would put it that 'self-control' is a first guess at 'emancipation'. Hegel's "Philosophy of Right" is a discourse on Freedom. The natural will originates in Nature, and human life as such begins with the free will. But free will as it first emerges turns out to fall short of what its concept is. We do not control our own desires. Furher, an individual finds that they are not free unless they live in a state where people have rights. But then it turns out that unless all the subjects make the general good their aim, within the law, they are still not free. But then it turns out that without a certain elaborate structure of the state, they are still not free, and so on. Vygotsky was just working on the first step there. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 19/01/2020 7:48 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Martin, (just catched your post quickly), I think your > example makes it quite clear that self control and > emancipation are not the same, right? Rhat is sort of what > I was getting into when a few posts ago I pointed out that > a lot of the meta-cognition and critical thinking etc? has > made it to mainstream education for a good while now, > including the so-called 21^st century skills, and yet, I > would not consider much of what is done in formal > education (and much of what is raised in educational > research) as having that ?higher? moral character implied > in the notion of emancipation (not to free oneself from > conditions, which I think is what Haydi is getting at), > and apparently much of what has been taught hasn?t been > very useful for surviving the 21^st century? > > Haydi, thanks for your careful response and patience. > Michael, what you just wrote (about being vs becoming), > which is very much to the point, reminded me of Ortega y > Gasset?s: ?The only thing that is given to us and that is > when there is human life is the having to make it ? Life > is a task? > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of > Martin Packer > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:37 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread here, > but something that has puzzled me for some time is this. > If someone becomes able to control their own behavior, is > this necessarily emancipatory? A child can engage in > self-control in order to do something completely new, > something that transforms their own ecology and opens up > new possibilities for themselves and other people. True. > But equally, a child can engage in self-control in order > to do precisely what their caregiver (or their government) > wants and tells them to do. Are these both emancipatory? > Are these both examples of ?executive function?? Are they > both occasions of the higher psychological functions > (deliberate and conscious)? > > Puzzled... > > Martin > > > > On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum > > wrote: > > Michael and Andy, > > If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I > can help answer Michael's questions. As a long-time > researcher of private (egocentric) speech, I see > Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement > inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally > existing social system of speech communication) during > child development as standing in sharp contrast to the > nativist assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn > biological system. But more pertinent to your > discussion, by placing the source of human verbal > thinking in the social sphere rather than the > biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary > function of signs as a social means for controlling > the consciousness of others. What happens during the > development of private speech is that this > artificially created means of social control of others > passes to the child as part of the process of > acquiring the system of speech communication. As a > derivative of the primary function of signs, inner > speech becomes a child's means of controlling his or > her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's > own consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. > Neat trick, eh? > > Sorry to intervene!? Carry on. > > Cheers, > > Peter > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael > > wrote: > > This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I > read it is the sentence ?Its theoretical goal is > the prediction and control of behavior.? These > days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as > a tool that can predict and control the ecology. > Of course Watson is saying (like most > behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is > Vygotsky saying that internalized tools are the > same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes > the initial external to internal migrations of > tools we use to control the ecology around us? Was > he trying to split this differences, you can go > inside the head if you accept that was is inside > the head is a consequence of what is outside the > head? For me it puts the whole idea of > contextualism in a different light. > > Michael > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: > > ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a > purely objective experimental branch of > natural science. Its theoretical goal is the > prediction and control of behavior. > Introspection forms no essential part of its > methods, nor is the scientific value of its > data dependent upon the readiness with which > they lend themselves to interpretation in > terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in > his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal > response, recognizes no dividing line between > man and brute? (?Psychology as the Behaviorist > Views it?, 1913) > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I > meant behaviorism as a science of control from > a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the > question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at > when you take the S-R scheme (and > conditioning) as your main explanatory > scheme?? If you raise the same question from a > sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite > different, and allows for issues of freedom in > a whole new light. > > In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you > render a valid reading. > > Although I think that today?s school curricula > in most countries are quite explicit on the > importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? > that you refer to, rather than on educating > for jobs (although I can see that is still the > underlying assumption). You can read about > those skills in the so-called XXIst century > skills, very extended in recent educational > reforms (including critical thinking skills, > creativity, collaborative skills, digital > skills?). I am afraid, though, that the > ecosocial crises that we are facing are very > quickly and patently showing how narrow our > understandings of the sort of skills needed to > survive in the XXIst century are. I think that > what the climate crisis is showing us is that > we need to connect those notions of thinking > with the practical socio-economical > organization of power and of the relations of > humans with nature. I don?t remember now where > I read that a scientist had been including > spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and > social disrest in his/her climate prediction > computer models, and was showing that these > were the only variables that may have a > largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas > emission reductions needed (if you can reduce > the solution to reducing gas emissions?). I > think events today are re-writing the way > ?progressing towards a modern world? made > concious thinking more relevant? But this is a > digression, sorry! > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on > behalf of "Glassman, Michael" > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Hi Alfredo and Andy, > > I am not sure I agree with this > characterization of behaviorism.? Especially > at the time he was writing behaviorism was for > the most part I think focusing on the > behaviors of individuals rather than going > inside the head to understand what individuals > did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike > to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that > Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist > fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see > Vygotsky at this point as not so much > discussing control of individuals by those > outside them (at least not directly) but the > ways individuals are able to control the > ecologies around them. He sees this occurring > in two possible ways, being able to use > internalized tools in order to directly > control the ecology, and being able to control > their own thinking so that they can actually > play (not the right word) with these > internalized symbols before applying them. He > has not difficulty with the former, and all > that is really necessary is to be taught > different applications for limited situations. > But as we progressed to a modern world the > ability to lead a satisfactory life from a > small set of applications you might say > becomes more and more difficult. Humans > developed more abstract thinking, controlling > their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing > and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded > conscious effort on the part of social > interlocutors (formal teaching). The > difficulty he raises in the socialist > alteration of man is that this type of > conscious effort was limited to only a small > population that then used their more adaptable > thinking skills (I am hesitant to say > advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from > control) those who were on the lower rungs of > society. I mean we continue to do this today > when we argue to educate students for specific > jobs but do not offer broader education in > thinking (there is nothing wrong in training > in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but > unless we teach people to manipulate their > thinking about those skills they will never > really have control of what they do in a > complex society. I don?t think that is what > Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it > does set up a road map for where he wants to > go, which I actually think you can see in part > even in his dissertation on Hamlet. > > Michael > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On > Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Andy, all, > > Behaviorism as the science of controlling > people, as the opposite of an emancipatory > science, is exactly how I teach it in my > learning theory courses. I too find the most > useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as > aiming at an emancipatory science, although > clearly the instrumental bend in some of the > formulations gets in the way, including the > terminology of ?control? that also > characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on > inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? > could for example be as well formulated as the > object-oriented activity of a social movement, > which precisely aims to gain ?control? over > conditions for development; only that > ?control? might be a quite misleading way of > posing it? > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on > behalf of Andy Blunden > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > " > > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his > (translated) word. He wants "a scientific > theory which would lead to the subordination > and mastery of the mind, to the artificial > control of behaviour" and whether he likes > Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs > is, to me, irrelevant. > > Now there /is /an ambiguity in Vygotsky's > claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would > define as the science of controlling people, > and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory > science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested > in, on the other hand, is giving to people the > capacity to control /their own/ mind. But this > is not clear from the above, and maybe > Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on > "socialist man" and the business with lie > detectors suggest that there were some blind > spots there. > > Anyway, I was only interested in using the > quote for my own purposes in contrasting the > academic literature on "social Movement > Studies" and that genre of social movement > literature written by and for activist, which > is usually narrative or autobiographical in > style, and in the above sense "technic" rather > than "epistemology." > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > I don?t know, the sense I get is that he > was really criticizing Musterberg, not > embracing him, at least from what I read > in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we > should be wary of this idea of a practical > psychology that can use empirical means to > look predict human behavior. One hint I > get from the piece is his mention of using > practical psychology to determine whether > people should be tram drivers. To me it > sounds like he was arguing also against > the rising use of intelligence tests as a > psychological tool. James brought over > Musterberg in part I think to explore the > idea of empirical psychology and > Musterberg it seems wound up merging > empirical and practical in ways that > Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, > rightfully suggesting it would send > psychology towards the types of practical > models of the physical sciences where it > did not belong, something that I think has > plagued the field since. At least from my > reading of this piece is that Vygotsky > also found it confusing that Musterberg by > following James was also grabbing hold of > an idealist vision of psychology, that > people behave in certain ways because they > were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that > there was no way to reconcile this. At > this moment I see this as sort of a > precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, > finding a way to merge the idealist vision > with a material approach but not falling > into a trap in either direction. He did > not want to be Wundt and he did not want > to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted > nothing to do with the intelligence > testers who combined ?empirical? and > practical psychology for ideological > reasons (just recently heard about Thomas > Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think > that might fit in here). > > Michael > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > *On Behalf Of *Jussi Silvonen > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM > *To:* mike cole > ; eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Mike, > > take a look at Internet Archive > (archive.org ), you > can find PDF files of most of > M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, > that M?sterberg had a great influence on > LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental > phase. > > JusSi > > ---------------- > Jussi Silvonen > Dosentti > It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus > Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto > PL 111 (Metria) > 80101 Joensuu > ------------------ > https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home > > https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen > > http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *L?hett?j?:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta > *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta > 2020 19.56 > *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity > > *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and > was deeply immersed in the problem of the > "two psychologies" that LSV sought to > supercede. For a quick take on > "psychotechnics" in work, check his book > out on google and search the term. For > example, > > Psychotechnics is really a technical > science related to a causal > [experimental-mc] psychology as > engineering is related to physics.? > Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the > future while the psychohistorical sciences > refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) > > It would be interesting to stage a > discussion bertween?Munsterberg and LSV.? > Which one would have more to say for his > accomplishments view from, say, 2020? > > And if someone has a pdf of the book, > please sing out! > > mike > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, > Michael > wrote: > > I don?t know, I read it that he was > criticizing Munsterberg with his > discussion of psychotechnics, which I > guess was the title of Munsterberg?s > last book. To meet it reads like > Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was > falling into a dangerous materialist > trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying > Andy. > > Michael > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 > 2:39 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > > It was the exclusion of > "psychotechnics" from the fundamental > problems of psychology which he > objected to. On the contrary, the > philosophy of practice provided all > the solutions to these problems. "The > goal of such a psychology is not > Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for > Dilthey, but */in one word ? > psychotechnics/*, i.e., a scientific > theory which would lead to the > subordination and mastery of the mind, > to the artificial control of behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg > wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the > Soviet version of human resource > management. The idea was to select > particular "types" for particular > jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet > idea--it started in Germany (and > in fact, the Nazis were very big > on it; the selection ramp at > Auschwitz was based on it). In > China, there was also quite a bit > of emphasis on making sure that > people suited the professions > chosen for them, as education was > a very scarce resource. > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, > who was a colleague of > Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; > his essay on the language of the > Red Army soldier is written with > that perspective in mind. And it > was at a psychotechnic conference > that Vygotsky was asked if there > could be a pedology of adults, to > aid in psychotechnic selection. > > Vygotsky said no. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the > originality of Vygotsky's "Thought > and Word" i > > in /Mind Culture and Activity/ > > /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > / > > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > New Translation with Nikolai > Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's > Pedological Works Volume One: > Foundations of Pedology" > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM > mike cole > wrote: > > Might you be looking for > ?psychotechnics? Andy? > > Mike > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 > PM David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > Andy-- > > That really doesn't sound > like Vygotsky to me. > > Yes, he refers to art as > the "social technique of > emotion" (Psychology of > Art). Yes, he did > experiments on reading > "Gentle Breath" to see if > Bunin's short story had > any affect on breathing > rates. But as far as I > know he had nothing to do > with Luria's work on lie > detectors (in The Nature > of Human Conflict), and he > was even rather skeptical > of Luria's work on optical > illusions in "uneducated" > peoples > > . Remember, this is the > guy who denied that a > general psychology could > ever cut itself off from > practice and vice versa > (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected > the idea that thinking is > speech with the sound > turned off (Thinking and > Speech). Besides, who ever > heard of a technology > opposed to an > epistemology? What would > that mean? A hand without > a brain? > > Vygotsky sounds more like > this: "Neither the hand > nor the brain left to > itself can do much." > Francis Bacon, /Novum > Organum/ (1620), Book 1, > Aphorism 2. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: > On the originality of > Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in /Mind Culture and Activity/ > > /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > / > > Some free e-prints > available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at > 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > There's somewhere > where Vygotsky talks > about psychology as a > technology as opposed > to (for example) an > epistemology. Can > anyone point me to > where this observation > is to be found. I can > find it with my search > engines. I think > Vygotsky and Luria's > invention of the > lie-detector has been > mentioned in this > connection. > > Andy > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social > Movements > > Home Page > > > > -- > > ?fiction is but a form of > symbolic action, a mere game > of ?as if?, therein lies its > true ?function and its > potential for effecting change > - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources > relevant to the research of > myself and other members of > LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > .? > For a narrative history of the > research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -- > > ?fiction is but a form of symbolic action, > a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its > true ?function and its potential for > effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the > research of myself and other members of > LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > .? > For a narrative history of the research of > LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -- > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > Director, > > Office of Institutional Research > > > Fordham University > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200119/eeb6bc42/attachment.html From robsub@ariadne.org.uk Sat Jan 18 15:32:51 2020 From: robsub@ariadne.org.uk (robsub@ariadne.org.uk) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 23:32:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <08908D12-D176-4D4A-B4E6-28A438D215C9@uio.no> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> <08908D12-D176-4D4A-B4E6-28A438D215C9@uio.no> Message-ID: <3a641b50-5a3c-ee19-13e1-0e625e61926f@ariadne.org.uk> Is this not Foucault's concept of governmentality? In other words *you* control yourself the way *they* want you to. Can "self-control" be regarded as a tool? Then, like all tools, the purpose for which it is used depends on the user. Rob On 18/01/2020 20:48, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Martin, (just catched your post quickly), I think your example makes > it quite clear that self control and emancipation are not the same, > right? Rhat is sort of what I was getting into when a few posts ago I > pointed out that a lot of the meta-cognition and critical thinking > etc? has made it to mainstream education for a good while now, > including the so-called 21^st century skills, and yet, I would not > consider much of what is done in formal education (and much of what is > raised in educational research) as having that ?higher? moral > character implied in the notion of emancipation (not to free oneself > from conditions, which I think is what Haydi is getting at), and > apparently much of what has been taught hasn?t been very useful for > surviving the 21^st century? > > Haydi, thanks for your careful response and patience. Michael, what > you just wrote (about being vs becoming), which is very much to the > point, reminded me of Ortega y Gasset?s: ?The only thing that is given > to us and that is when there is human life is the having to make it ? > Life is a task? > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of Martin Packer > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:37 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread here, but > something that has puzzled me for some time is this. If someone > becomes able to control their own behavior, is this necessarily > emancipatory? A child can engage in self-control in order to do > something completely new, something that transforms their own ecology > and opens up new possibilities for themselves and other people. True. > But equally, a child can engage in self-control in order to do > precisely what their caregiver (or their government) wants and tells > them to do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both examples of > ?executive function?? Are they both occasions of the higher > psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)? > > Puzzled... > > Martin > > > > On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum > > wrote: > > Michael and Andy, > > If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I can help > answer Michael's questions. As a long-time researcher of private > (egocentric) speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about > the movement inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally > existing social system of speech communication) during child > development as standing in sharp contrast to the nativist > assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn biological system. > But more pertinent to your discussion, by placing the source of > human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather than the > biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary function of > signs as a social means for controlling the consciousness of > others. What happens during the development of private speech is > that this artificially created means of social control of others > passes to the child as part of the process of acquiring the system > of speech communication. As a derivative of the primary function > of signs, inner speech becomes a child's means of controlling his > or her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's own > consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh? > > Sorry to intervene!? Carry on. > > Cheers, > > Peter > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael > > wrote: > > This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the > sentence ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control > of behavior.? These days I see Vygotsky as advocating for > thinking as a tool that can predict and control the ecology. > Of course Watson is saying (like most behaviorists) you can?t > go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that internalized tools > are the same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes the > initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to > control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this > differences, you can go inside the head if you accept that was > is inside the head is a consequence of what is outside the > head? For me it puts the whole idea of contextualism in a > different light. > > Michael > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf Of *Andy > Blunden > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: > > ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely > objective experimental branch of natural science. Its > theoretical goal is the prediction and control of > behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its > methods, nor is the scientific value of its data dependent > upon the readiness with which they lend themselves to > interpretation in terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, > in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, > recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? > (?Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant > behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy > perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of > pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and > conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you > raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, > the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of > freedom in a whole new light. > > In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a > valid reading. > > Although I think that today?s school curricula in most > countries are quite explicit on the importance of the > ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than > on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still > the underlying assumption). You can read about those > skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very > extended in recent educational reforms (including critical > thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital > skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises > that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing > how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed > to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the > climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect > those notions of thinking with the practical > socio-economical organization of power and of the > relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now > where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of > civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in > his/her climate prediction computer models, and was > showing that these were the only variables that may have a > largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission > reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to > reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are > re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? > made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a > digression, sorry! > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of > "Glassman, Michael" > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Hi Alfredo and Andy, > > I am not sure I agree with this characterization of > behaviorism.? Especially at the time he was writing > behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the > behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head > to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide > net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this > point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist > fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this > point as not so much discussing control of individuals by > those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways > individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. > He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to > use internalized tools in order to directly control the > ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so > that they can actually play (not the right word) with > these internalized symbols before applying them. He has > not difficulty with the former, and all that is really > necessary is to be taught different applications for > limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world > the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set > of applications you might say becomes more and more > difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, > controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing > and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious > effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal > teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist > alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort > was limited to only a small population that then used > their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say > advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) > those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we > continue to do this today when we argue to educate > students for specific jobs but do not offer broader > education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training > in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we > teach people to manipulate their thinking about those > skills they will never really have control of what they do > in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky > was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map > for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can > see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. > > Michael > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf Of > *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Andy, all, > > Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the > opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I > teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the > most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an > emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental > bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, > including the terminology of ?control? that also > characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The > artificial control of behavior? could for example be as > well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a > social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? > over conditions for development; only that ?control? might > be a quite misleading way of posing it? > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of > Andy Blunden > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > " > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. > He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the > subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial > control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or > personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. > > Now there /is /an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. > Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science > of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an > emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested > in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to > control /their own/ mind. But this is not clear from the > above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His > writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie > detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. > > Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my > own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on > "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social > movement literature written by and for activist, which is > usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the > above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really > criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least > from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe > we should be wary of this idea of a practical > psychology that can use empirical means to look > predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece > is his mention of using practical psychology to > determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me > it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising > use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. > James brought over Musterberg in part I think to > explore the idea of empirical psychology and > Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and > practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be > detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send > psychology towards the types of practical models of > the physical sciences where it did not belong, > something that I think has plagued the field since. At > least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky > also found it confusing that Musterberg by following > James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of > psychology, that people behave in certain ways because > they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there > was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see > this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted > to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with > a material approach but not falling into a trap in > either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he > did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted > nothing to do with the intelligence testers who > combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for > ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas > Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might > fit in here). > > Michael > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf Of > *Jussi Silvonen > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM > *To:* mike cole > ; eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > Mike, > > take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org > ), you can find PDF files of most > of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that > M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in > his theory's instrumental phase. > > JusSi > > ---------------- > Jussi Silvonen > Dosentti > It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus > Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto > PL 111 (Metria) > 80101 Joensuu > ------------------ > https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home > > https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen > > http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *L?hett?j?:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > k?ytt?j?n > mike cole > > puolesta > *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 > *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply > immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that > LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on > "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google > and search the term. For example, > > Psychotechnics is really a technical science related > to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as > engineering is related to physics.? Psychotechnics > necessarily refers to the future while the > psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. > (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) > > It would be interesting to stage a discussion > bertween?Munsterberg and LSV.? Which one would have > more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? > > And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! > > mike > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > > wrote: > > I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing > Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, > which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last > book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking > Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous > materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying > Andy. > > Michael > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the > fundamental problems of psychology which he > objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of > practice provided all the solutions to these > problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not > Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, > but */in one word ? psychotechnics/*, i.e., a > scientific theory which would lead to the > subordination and mastery of the mind, to the > artificial control of behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet > version of human resource management. The idea > was to select particular "types" for > particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet > idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the > Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp > at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there > was also quite a bit of emphasis on making > sure that people suited the professions chosen > for them, as education was a very scarce resource. > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a > colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; > his essay on the language of the Red Army > soldier is written with that perspective in > mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference > that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a > pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic > selection. > > Vygotsky said no. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality > of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i > > in /Mind Culture and Activity/ > > /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > / > > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. > Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: > Foundations of Pedology" > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > > wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? > Andy? > > Mike > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David > Kellogg > wrote: > > Andy-- > > That really doesn't sound like > Vygotsky to me. > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social > technique of emotion" (Psychology of > Art). Yes, he did experiments on > reading "Gentle Breath" to see if > Bunin's short story had any affect on > breathing rates. But as far as I know > he had nothing to do with Luria's work > on lie detectors (in The Nature of > Human Conflict), and he was even > rather skeptical of Luria's work on > optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied > that a general psychology could ever > cut itself off from practice and vice > versa (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected the idea > that thinking is speech with the sound > turned off (Thinking and Speech). > Besides, who ever heard of a > technology opposed to an epistemology? > What would that mean? A hand without a > brain? > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: > "Neither the hand nor the brain left > to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, > /Novum Organum/ (1620), Book 1, > Aphorism 2. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the > originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in /Mind Culture and Activity/ > > /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > / > > Some free e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy > Blunden > wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky > talks about psychology as a > technology as opposed to (for > example) an epistemology. Can > anyone point me to where this > observation is to be found. I can > find it with my search engines. I > think Vygotsky and Luria's > invention of the lie-detector has > been mentioned in this connection. > > Andy > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > > -- > > ?fiction is but a form of symbolic action, > a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its > true ?function and its potential for > effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the > research of myself and other members of > LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > .? > For a narrative history of the research of > LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -- > > ?fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game > of ?as if?, therein lies its true ?function and its > potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of > myself and other members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > .? > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > . > > > -- > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > Director, > > Office of Institutional Research > > > Fordham University > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200118/3dba26f2/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sat Jan 18 16:35:04 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 11:35:04 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <3a641b50-5a3c-ee19-13e1-0e625e61926f@ariadne.org.uk> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> <08908D12-D176-4D4A-B4E6-28A438D215C9@uio.no> <3a641b50-5a3c-ee19-13e1-0e625e61926f@ariadne.org.uk> Message-ID: <40d23206-7a7c-1bb6-eac2-c604a2d9c3c8@marxists.org> Foucault is the modern version of quietism. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 19/01/2020 10:32 am, robsub@ariadne.org.uk wrote: > Is this not Foucault's concept of governmentality? In > other words *you* control yourself the way *they* want you to. > > Can "self-control" be regarded as a tool? Then, like all > tools, the purpose for which it is used depends on the user. > > Rob > > On 18/01/2020 20:48, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> Martin, (just catched your post quickly), I think your >> example makes it quite clear that self control and >> emancipation are not the same, right? Rhat is sort of >> what I was getting into when a few posts ago I pointed >> out that a lot of the meta-cognition and critical >> thinking etc? has made it to mainstream education for a >> good while now, including the so-called 21^st century >> skills, and yet, I would not consider much of what is >> done in formal education (and much of what is raised in >> educational research) as having that ?higher? moral >> character implied in the notion of emancipation (not to >> free oneself from conditions, which I think is what Haydi >> is getting at), and apparently much of what has been >> taught hasn?t been very useful for surviving the 21^st >> century? >> >> Haydi, thanks for your careful response and patience. >> Michael, what you just wrote (about being vs becoming), >> which is very much to the point, reminded me of Ortega y >> Gasset?s: ?The only thing that is given to us and that is >> when there is human life is the having to make it ? Life >> is a task? >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: * on behalf of >> Martin Packer >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> *Date: *Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:37 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread >> here, but something that has puzzled me for some time is >> this. If someone becomes able to control their own >> behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can >> engage in self-control in order to do something >> completely new, something that transforms their own >> ecology and opens up new possibilities for themselves and >> other people. True. But equally, a child can engage in >> self-control in order to do precisely what their >> caregiver (or their government) wants and tells them to >> do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both examples >> of ?executive function?? Are they both occasions of the >> higher psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)? >> >> Puzzled... >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum >> > > wrote: >> >> Michael and Andy, >> >> If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I >> can help answer Michael's questions. As a long-time >> researcher of private (egocentric) speech, I see >> Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement >> inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally >> existing social system of speech communication) >> during child development as standing in sharp >> contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal >> thinking is an inborn biological system. But more >> pertinent to your discussion, by placing the source >> of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather >> than the biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces >> the primary function of signs as a social means for >> controlling the consciousness of others. What happens >> during the development of private speech is that this >> artificially created means of social control of >> others passes to the child as part of the process of >> acquiring the system of speech communication. As a >> derivative of the primary function of signs, inner >> speech becomes a child's means of controlling his or >> her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's >> own consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. >> Neat trick, eh? >> >> Sorry to intervene!? Carry on. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Peter >> >> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael >> > wrote: >> >> This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I >> read it is the sentence ?Its theoretical goal is >> the prediction and control of behavior.? These >> days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as >> a tool that can predict and control the ecology. >> Of course Watson is saying (like most >> behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is >> Vygotsky saying that internalized tools are the >> same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes >> the initial external to internal migrations of >> tools we use to control the ecology around us? >> Was he trying to split this differences, you can >> go inside the head if you accept that was is >> inside the head is a consequence of what is >> outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea >> of contextualism in a different light. >> >> Michael >> >> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > *On >> Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >> *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> Here is what J B Watson had to say about >> Behaviourism: >> >> ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a >> purely objective experimental branch of >> natural science. Its theoretical goal is the >> prediction and control of behavior. >> Introspection forms no essential part of its >> methods, nor is the scientific value of its >> data dependent upon the readiness with which >> they lend themselves to interpretation in >> terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in >> his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal >> response, recognizes no dividing line between >> man and brute? (?Psychology as the >> Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I >> meant behaviorism as a science of control >> from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise >> the question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive >> at when you take the S-R scheme (and >> conditioning) as your main explanatory >> scheme?? If you raise the same question from >> a sociocultural perspective, the answer is >> quite different, and allows for issues of >> freedom in a whole new light. >> >> In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you >> render a valid reading. >> >> Although I think that today?s school >> curricula in most countries are quite >> explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable >> thinking skills? that you refer to, rather >> than on educating for jobs (although I can >> see that is still the underlying assumption). >> You can read about those skills in the >> so-called XXIst century skills, very extended >> in recent educational reforms (including >> critical thinking skills, creativity, >> collaborative skills, digital skills?). I am >> afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises >> that we are facing are very quickly and >> patently showing how narrow our >> understandings of the sort of skills needed >> to survive in the XXIst century are. I think >> that what the climate crisis is showing us is >> that we need to connect those notions of >> thinking with the practical socio-economical >> organization of power and of the relations of >> humans with nature. I don?t remember now >> where I read that a scientist had been >> including spikes of civil activism, >> disobedience, and social disrest in his/her >> climate prediction computer models, and was >> showing that these were the only variables >> that may have a largest, quickest effect in >> achieving the gas emission reductions needed >> (if you can reduce the solution to reducing >> gas emissions?). I think events today are >> re-writing the way ?progressing towards a >> modern world? made concious thinking more >> relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: * >> on >> behalf of "Glassman, Michael" >> >> >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity" >> >> *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> Hi Alfredo and Andy, >> >> I am not sure I agree with this >> characterization of behaviorism.? Especially >> at the time he was writing behaviorism was >> for the most part I think focusing on the >> behaviors of individuals rather than going >> inside the head to understand what >> individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, >> from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at >> this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a >> cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am >> wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point >> as not so much discussing control of >> individuals by those outside them (at least >> not directly) but the ways individuals are >> able to control the ecologies around them. He >> sees this occurring in two possible ways, >> being able to use internalized tools in order >> to directly control the ecology, and being >> able to control their own thinking so that >> they can actually play (not the right word) >> with these internalized symbols before >> applying them. He has not difficulty with the >> former, and all that is really necessary is >> to be taught different applications for >> limited situations. But as we progressed to a >> modern world the ability to lead a >> satisfactory life from a small set of >> applications you might say becomes more and >> more difficult. Humans developed more >> abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts >> to deal with a quickly changing and >> heterogenous ecology, but this demanded >> conscious effort on the part of social >> interlocutors (formal teaching). The >> difficulty he raises in the socialist >> alteration of man is that this type of >> conscious effort was limited to only a small >> population that then used their more >> adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to >> say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate >> from control) those who were on the lower >> rungs of society. I mean we continue to do >> this today when we argue to educate students >> for specific jobs but do not offer broader >> education in thinking (there is nothing wrong >> in training in skills such as mechanics and >> plumbing, but unless we teach people to >> manipulate their thinking about those skills >> they will never really have control of what >> they do in a complex society. I don?t think >> that is what Vygotsky was writing about in >> Crisis, but it does set up a road map for >> where he wants to go, which I actually think >> you can see in part even in his dissertation >> on Hamlet. >> >> Michael >> >> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> *On >> Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil >> *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> Andy, all, >> >> Behaviorism as the science of controlling >> people, as the opposite of an emancipatory >> science, is exactly how I teach it in my >> learning theory courses. I too find the most >> useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as >> aiming at an emancipatory science, although >> clearly the instrumental bend in some of the >> formulations gets in the way, including the >> terminology of ?control? that also >> characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on >> inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? >> could for example be as well formulated as >> the object-oriented activity of a social >> movement, which precisely aims to gain >> ?control? over conditions for development; >> only that ?control? might be a quite >> misleading way of posing it? >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: *> > on >> behalf of Andy Blunden > > >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity" > > >> *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 >> *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> " >> > > >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his >> (translated) word. He wants "a scientific >> theory which would lead to the subordination >> and mastery of the mind, to the artificial >> control of behaviour" and whether he likes >> Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs >> is, to me, irrelevant. >> >> Now there /is /an ambiguity in Vygotsky's >> claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would >> define as the science of controlling people, >> and as such is the opposite of an >> emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly >> interested in, on the other hand, is giving >> to people the capacity to control /their own/ >> mind. But this is not clear from the above, >> and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His >> writing on "socialist man" and the business >> with lie detectors suggest that there were >> some blind spots there. >> >> Anyway, I was only interested in using the >> quote for my own purposes in contrasting the >> academic literature on "social Movement >> Studies" and that genre of social movement >> literature written by and for activist, which >> is usually narrative or autobiographical in >> style, and in the above sense "technic" >> rather than "epistemology." >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: >> >> I don?t know, the sense I get is that he >> was really criticizing Musterberg, not >> embracing him, at least from what I read >> in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we >> should be wary of this idea of a >> practical psychology that can use >> empirical means to look predict human >> behavior. One hint I get from the piece >> is his mention of using practical >> psychology to determine whether people >> should be tram drivers. To me it sounds >> like he was arguing also against the >> rising use of intelligence tests as a >> psychological tool. James brought over >> Musterberg in part I think to explore the >> idea of empirical psychology and >> Musterberg it seems wound up merging >> empirical and practical in ways that >> Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, >> rightfully suggesting it would send >> psychology towards the types of practical >> models of the physical sciences where it >> did not belong, something that I think >> has plagued the field since. At least >> from my reading of this piece is that >> Vygotsky also found it confusing that >> Musterberg by following James was also >> grabbing hold of an idealist vision of >> psychology, that people behave in certain >> ways because they were human. Vygotsky >> seemed to think that there was no way to >> reconcile this. At this moment I see this >> as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky >> wanted to go, finding a way to merge the >> idealist vision with a material approach >> but not falling into a trap in either >> direction. He did not want to be Wundt >> and he did not want to be Musterberg, he >> definitely wanted nothing to do with the >> intelligence testers who combined >> ?empirical? and practical psychology for >> ideological reasons (just recently heard >> about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic >> violence. I think that might fit in here). >> >> Michael >> >> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> >> *On Behalf Of *Jussi Silvonen >> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM >> *To:* mike cole >> ; eXtended Mind, >> Culture, Activity >> >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> Mike, >> >> take a look at Internet Archive >> (archive.org ), you >> can find PDF files of most of >> M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, >> that M?sterberg had? a great influence on >> LSV, at least in his theory's >> instrumental phase. >> >> JusSi >> >> ---------------- >> Jussi Silvonen >> Dosentti >> It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus >> Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto >> PL 111 (Metria) >> 80101 Joensuu >> ------------------ >> https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home >> >> https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen >> >> http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *L?hett?j?:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > >> k?ytt?j?n mike cole > > puolesta >> *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta >> 2020 19.56 >> *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity > > >> *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >> >> In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and >> was deeply immersed in the problem of the >> "two psychologies" that LSV sought to >> supercede. For a quick take on >> "psychotechnics" in work, check his book >> out on google and search the term. For >> example, >> >> Psychotechnics is really a technical >> science related to a causal >> [experimental-mc] psychology as >> engineering is related to physics. >> Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the >> future while the psychohistorical >> sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, >> 1915, p.354) >> >> It would be interesting to stage a >> discussion bertween?Munsterberg and LSV.? >> Which one would have more to say for his >> accomplishments view from, say, 2020? >> >> And if someone has a pdf of the book, >> please sing out! >> >> mike >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, >> Michael > > wrote: >> >> I don?t know, I read it that he was >> criticizing Munsterberg with his >> discussion of psychotechnics, which I >> guess was the title of Munsterberg?s >> last book. To meet it reads like >> Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was >> falling into a dangerous materialist >> trap. Maybe that?s what you are >> saying Andy. >> >> Michael >> >> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> > > >> *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden >> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 >> 2:39 AM >> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful >> psychology? >> >> This is what I was looking for: >> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 >> >> >> It was the exclusion of >> "psychotechnics" from the fundamental >> problems of psychology which he >> objected to. On the contrary, the >> philosophy of practice provided all >> the solutions to these problems. "The >> goal of such a psychology is not >> Shakespeare in concepts, as it was >> for Dilthey, but */in one word ? >> psychotechnics/*, i.e., a scientific >> theory which would lead to the >> subordination and mastery of the >> mind, to the artificial control of >> behaviour." >> >> Thanks all. >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> But psychotechnics was really the >> Soviet version of human resource >> management. The idea was to >> select particular "types" for >> particular jobs. It wasn't really >> a Soviet idea--it started in >> Germany (and in fact, the Nazis >> were very big on it; the >> selection ramp at Auschwitz was >> based on it). In China, there was >> also quite a bit of emphasis on >> making sure that people suited >> the professions chosen for them, >> as education was a very scarce >> resource. >> >> Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's >> brother, who was a colleague of >> Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; >> his essay on the language of the >> Red Army soldier is written with >> that perspective in mind. And it >> was at a psychotechnic conference >> that Vygotsky was asked if there >> could be a pedology of adults, to >> aid in psychotechnic selection. >> >> Vygotsky said no. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: 'Commentary: On the >> originality of Vygotsky's >> "Thought and Word" i >> >> in /Mind Culture and Activity/ >> >> /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> / >> >> Some free e-prints available at: >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> >> >> New Translation with Nikolai >> Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's >> Pedological Works Volume One: >> Foundations of Pedology" >> >> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM >> mike cole > > wrote: >> >> Might you be looking for >> ?psychotechnics? Andy? >> >> Mike >> >> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 >> PM David Kellogg >> > > >> wrote: >> >> Andy-- >> >> That really doesn't sound >> like Vygotsky to me. >> >> Yes, he refers to art as >> the "social technique of >> emotion" (Psychology of >> Art). Yes, he did >> experiments on reading >> "Gentle Breath" to see if >> Bunin's short story had >> any affect on breathing >> rates. But as far as I >> know he had nothing to do >> with Luria's work on lie >> detectors (in The Nature >> of Human Conflict), and >> he was even rather >> skeptical of Luria's work >> on optical illusions in >> "uneducated" peoples >> >> . Remember, this is the >> guy who denied that a >> general psychology could >> ever cut itself off from >> practice and vice versa >> (History of the Crisis in >> Psychology), who rejected >> the idea that thinking is >> speech with the sound >> turned off (Thinking and >> Speech). Besides, who >> ever heard of a >> technology opposed to an >> epistemology? What would >> that mean? A hand without >> a brain? >> >> Vygotsky sounds more like >> this: "Neither the hand >> nor the brain left to >> itself can do much." >> Francis Bacon, /Novum >> Organum/ (1620), Book 1, >> Aphorism 2. >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: 'Commentary: >> On the originality of >> Vygotsky's "Thought and >> Word" i >> >> in /Mind Culture and >> Activity/ >> >> /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> / >> >> Some free e-prints >> available at: >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at >> 11:49 AM Andy Blunden >> > > >> wrote: >> >> There's somewhere >> where Vygotsky talks >> about psychology as a >> technology as opposed >> to (for example) an >> epistemology. Can >> anyone point me to >> where this >> observation is to be >> found. I can find it >> with my search >> engines. I think >> Vygotsky and Luria's >> invention of the >> lie-detector has been >> mentioned in this >> connection. >> >> Andy >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social >> Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ?fiction is but a form of >> symbolic action, a mere game >> of ?as if?, therein lies its >> true ?function and its >> potential for effecting >> change - R. Ellison >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> >> For archival resources >> relevant to the research of >> myself and other members of >> LCHC, visit >> >> lchc.ucsd.edu >> .? >> For a narrative history of >> the research of LCHC, visit >> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> . >> >> >> -- >> >> ?fiction is but a form of symbolic >> action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein >> lies its true ?function and its potential >> for effecting change - R. Ellison >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> >> For archival resources relevant to the >> research of myself and other members of >> LCHC, visit >> >> lchc.ucsd.edu >> .? >> For a narrative history of the research >> of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu >> . >> >> >> -- >> >> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. >> >> Director, >> >> Office of Institutional Research >> >> >> Fordham University >> >> Thebaud Hall-202 >> >> Bronx, NY 10458 >> >> Phone: (718) 817-2243 >> >> Fax: (718) 817-3817 >> >> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200119/7c278cd8/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sat Jan 18 17:22:24 2020 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 20:22:24 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <40d23206-7a7c-1bb6-eac2-c604a2d9c3c8@marxists.org> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> <08908D12-D176-4D4A-B4E6-28A438D215C9@uio.no> <3a641b50-5a3c-ee19-13e1-0e625e61926f@ariadne.org.uk> <40d23206-7a7c-1bb6-eac2-c604a2d9c3c8@marxists.org> Message-ID: > Foucault is the modern version of quietism. > > Andy > I don?t know about that, Andy. After all, it was Foucault who proposed that ?Power is everywhere; not because it embraces everything, but because it comes from everywhere?. it is always local and unstable.? We should study power, he suggests, by looking at resistance. The aim of investigation, in his view, is critique, which should arise from ?subjugated knowledges? and should oppose the authority of those who would oppress, in order to promote new forms of subjectivity. This thread began with a question (Andy?s) about psychology as technology, as tool. If Rob is right, and any tool can be used for any purpose, then any psychology could be used for good or bad. But if I use a hammer to make pancakes no one will want to eat them; most tools are designed for specific purposes. That leaves us with the question of whether a CHAT psychology designed to foster self-control ? a kind of inverse behaviorism, helping people master their own minds rather than controlling the behavior of others ? is what we are looking for, for the tasks at hand today. Andy, your previous message suggests that a psychology that ignores social context will fall into contradictions in its definition of ?self-control.? Various people have tried to fill the gap that Vygotsky left in CHAT by not saying much about the social context of his time. Do we now have a technologically adequate psychology? Here is a BBC program about the complex circumstances that led to the writing of 1984. Orwell, it seems to me, proposed that while a totalitarian state appreciates (and expects) blind obedience, what it values more ? and what it deploys its technology to achieve ? is conscious, deliberate obedience. Yet Foucault might add that western consumer culture values, and derives power from, the illusion of freedom created by promising people unlimited choice in various markets? (John Watson, of course, became an advertising executive.) https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qhb8b And here is an article on the way the technocratic moves to ?master? nature led to disaster in Australia, and a return to ?traditional? practices may be the way forward. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/world/australia/aboriginal-fire-management.html Martin (still puzzled) > On Jan 18, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Foucault is the modern version of quietism. > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 19/01/2020 10:32 am, robsub@ariadne.org.uk wrote: >> Is this not Foucault's concept of governmentality? In other words *you* control yourself the way *they* want you to. >> >> Can "self-control" be regarded as a tool? Then, like all tools, the purpose for which it is used depends on the user. >> >> Rob >> >> On 18/01/2020 20:48, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>> Martin, (just catched your post quickly), I think your example makes it quite clear that self control and emancipation are not the same, right? Rhat is sort of what I was getting into when a few posts ago I pointed out that a lot of the meta-cognition and critical thinking etc? has made it to mainstream education for a good while now, including the so-called 21st century skills, and yet, I would not consider much of what is done in formal education (and much of what is raised in educational research) as having that ?higher? moral character implied in the notion of emancipation (not to free oneself from conditions, which I think is what Haydi is getting at), and apparently much of what has been taught hasn?t been very useful for surviving the 21stcentury? >>> >>> Haydi, thanks for your careful response and patience. Michael, what you just wrote (about being vs becoming), which is very much to the point, reminded me of Ortega y Gasset?s: ?The only thing that is given to us and that is when there is human life is the having to make it ? Life is a task? >>> >>> Alfredo >>> >>> From: on behalf of Martin Packer >>> Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Date: Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:37 >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>> >>> Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread here, but something that has puzzled me for some time is this. If someone becomes able to control their own behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can engage in self-control in order to do something completely new, something that transforms their own ecology and opens up new possibilities for themselves and other people. True. But equally, a child can engage in self-control in order to do precisely what their caregiver (or their government) wants and tells them to do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both examples of ?executive function?? Are they both occasions of the higher psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)? >>> >>> Puzzled... >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum > wrote: >>> >>> Michael and Andy, >>> >>> If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I can help answer Michael's questions. As a long-time researcher of private (egocentric) speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally existing social system of speech communication) during child development as standing in sharp contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn biological system. But more pertinent to your discussion, by placing the source of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather than the biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary function of signs as a social means for controlling the consciousness of others. What happens during the development of private speech is that this artificially created means of social control of others passes to the child as part of the process of acquiring the system of speech communication. As a derivative of the primary function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's means of controlling his or her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's own consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh? >>> >>> Sorry to intervene! Carry on. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: >>> This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.? These days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of contextualism in a different light. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>> >>> Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: >>> ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? (?Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) >>> Andy >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>> What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. >>> >>> In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. >>> >>> Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! >>> >>> Alfredo >>> From: on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" >>> Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>> >>> Hi Alfredo and Andy, >>> >>> I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>> >>> Andy, all, >>> >>> Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? >>> >>> Alfredo >>> >>> From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > >>> Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>> Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 >>> To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu " > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>> >>> Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. >>> Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. >>> Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." >>> Andy >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: >>> I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM >>> To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>> >>> Mike, >>> >>> take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org ), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. >>> >>> JusSi >>> ---------------- >>> Jussi Silvonen >>> Dosentti >>> It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus >>> Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto >>> PL 111 (Metria) >>> 80101 Joensuu >>> ------------------ >>> https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home >>> https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen >>> http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ >>> L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta >>> L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 >>> Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>> >>> In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, >>> >>> Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) >>> >>> >>> It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? >>> >>> And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! >>> mike >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: >>> I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>> >>> >>> >>> This is what I was looking for: >>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 >>> It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." >>> Thanks all. >>> Andy >>> >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. >>> >>> >>> >>> Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. >>> >>> >>> >>> Vygotsky said no. >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> >>> >>> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i >>> >>> in Mind Culture and Activity >>> >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>> Some free e-prints available at: >>> >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>> >>> >>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: >>> >>> Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: >>> >>> Andy-- >>> >>> >>> >>> That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples >>> >>> >>> >>> . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? >>> >>> >>> >>> Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> >>> >>> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i >>> >>> in Mind Culture and Activity >>> >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>> Some free e-prints available at: >>> >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: >>> >>> There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. >>> Andy >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Andy Blunden >>> Hegel for Social Movements >>> Home Page >>> -- >>> >>> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit >>> >>> lchc.ucsd.edu . For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit >>> lchc.ucsd.edu . For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. >>> Director, >>> Office of Institutional Research >>> Fordham University >>> Thebaud Hall-202 >>> Bronx, NY 10458 >>> >>> Phone: (718) 817-2243 >>> Fax: (718) 817-3817 >>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200118/6c81fd31/attachment.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sat Jan 18 18:21:22 2020 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 02:21:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> <08908D12-D176-4D4A-B4E6-28A438D215C9@uio.no> <3a641b50-5a3c-ee19-13e1-0e625e61926f@ariadne.org.uk> <40d23206-7a7c-1bb6-eac2-c604a2d9c3c8@marxists.org> Message-ID: Beyond noting that one?s self-control is indexed to the frame of reference through which one interprets one?s actions, do we not also want to recognize self-control as itself a historically situated construct? Presumably, it has been shaped by needs that arise in relation to organized social structures, as well as through a modernist lens that sees views the social as emergent from interactions among individual agents. Or are folks thinking of it as a necessary, and thus natural, artifact of an organism?s dialogue with its environment? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Martin Packer Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2020 7:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Foucault is the modern version of quietism. Andy I don?t know about that, Andy. After all, it was Foucault who proposed that ?Power is everywhere; not because it embraces everything, but because it comes from everywhere?. it is always local and unstable.? We should study power, he suggests, by looking at resistance. The aim of investigation, in his view, is critique, which should arise from ?subjugated knowledges? and should oppose the authority of those who would oppress, in order to promote new forms of subjectivity. This thread began with a question (Andy?s) about psychology as technology, as tool. If Rob is right, and any tool can be used for any purpose, then any psychology could be used for good or bad. But if I use a hammer to make pancakes no one will want to eat them; most tools are designed for specific purposes. That leaves us with the question of whether a CHAT psychology designed to foster self-control ? a kind of inverse behaviorism, helping people master their own minds rather than controlling the behavior of others ? is what we are looking for, for the tasks at hand today. Andy, your previous message suggests that a psychology that ignores social context will fall into contradictions in its definition of ?self-control.? Various people have tried to fill the gap that Vygotsky left in CHAT by not saying much about the social context of his time. Do we now have a technologically adequate psychology? Here is a BBC program about the complex circumstances that led to the writing of 1984. Orwell, it seems to me, proposed that while a totalitarian state appreciates (and expects) blind obedience, what it values more ? and what it deploys its technology to achieve ? is conscious, deliberate obedience. Yet Foucault might add that western consumer culture values, and derives power from, the illusion of freedom created by promising people unlimited choice in various markets? (John Watson, of course, became an advertising executive.) https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qhb8b And here is an article on the way the technocratic moves to ?master? nature led to disaster in Australia, and a return to ?traditional? practices may be the way forward. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/world/australia/aboriginal-fire-management.html Martin (still puzzled) On Jan 18, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Foucault is the modern version of quietism. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 19/01/2020 10:32 am, robsub@ariadne.org.uk wrote: Is this not Foucault's concept of governmentality? In other words *you* control yourself the way *they* want you to. Can "self-control" be regarded as a tool? Then, like all tools, the purpose for which it is used depends on the user. Rob On 18/01/2020 20:48, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Martin, (just catched your post quickly), I think your example makes it quite clear that self control and emancipation are not the same, right? Rhat is sort of what I was getting into when a few posts ago I pointed out that a lot of the meta-cognition and critical thinking etc? has made it to mainstream education for a good while now, including the so-called 21st century skills, and yet, I would not consider much of what is done in formal education (and much of what is raised in educational research) as having that ?higher? moral character implied in the notion of emancipation (not to free oneself from conditions, which I think is what Haydi is getting at), and apparently much of what has been taught hasn?t been very useful for surviving the 21stcentury? Haydi, thanks for your careful response and patience. Michael, what you just wrote (about being vs becoming), which is very much to the point, reminded me of Ortega y Gasset?s: ?The only thing that is given to us and that is when there is human life is the having to make it ? Life is a task? Alfredo From: on behalf of Martin Packer Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:37 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread here, but something that has puzzled me for some time is this. If someone becomes able to control their own behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can engage in self-control in order to do something completely new, something that transforms their own ecology and opens up new possibilities for themselves and other people. True. But equally, a child can engage in self-control in order to do precisely what their caregiver (or their government) wants and tells them to do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both examples of ?executive function?? Are they both occasions of the higher psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)? Puzzled... Martin On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum > wrote: Michael and Andy, If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I can help answer Michael's questions. As a long-time researcher of private (egocentric) speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally existing social system of speech communication) during child development as standing in sharp contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn biological system. But more pertinent to your discussion, by placing the source of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather than the biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary function of signs as a social means for controlling the consciousness of others. What happens during the development of private speech is that this artificially created means of social control of others passes to the child as part of the process of acquiring the system of speech communication. As a derivative of the primary function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's means of controlling his or her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's own consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh? Sorry to intervene! Carry on. Cheers, Peter On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.? These days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of contextualism in a different light. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? (?Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! Alfredo From: on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Hi Alfredo and Andy, I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Andy, all, Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Mike, take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. JusSi ---------------- Jussi Silvonen Dosentti It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto PL 111 (Metria) 80101 Joensuu ------------------ https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. Director, Office of Institutional Research Fordham University Thebaud Hall-202 Bronx, NY 10458 Phone: (718) 817-2243 Fax: (718) 817-3817 email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200119/9305bde2/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sat Jan 18 18:47:20 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:47:20 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> <08908D12-D176-4D4A-B4E6-28A438D215C9@uio.no> <3a641b50-5a3c-ee19-13e1-0e625e61926f@ariadne.org.uk> <40d23206-7a7c-1bb6-eac2-c604a2d9c3c8@marxists.org> Message-ID: <0de872d3-030b-3b8c-00da-fd62bd648ee1@marxists.org> I recently read "The Last Man in Europe" alongside "1984." The world has changed though. I think dangers come from different directions than they did in Orwell's day, but his example of intellectual honesty, ruthless scepticism and integrity will remain forever. And yes. At the same time as our settler version of land care is burning the continent to death, our Home Affairs Minister has asked the Federal Police to investigate Bruce Pascoe, an outstanding advocate for indigenous land care practices. However, I do hear that our spineless, corrupt and paralysed government has promised to meet with indigenous fire managers next week, after having refused to meet with the Fire Chiefs for several months! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 19/01/2020 12:22 pm, Martin Packer wrote: >> >> Foucault is the modern version of quietism. >> >> Andy >> > I don?t know about that, Andy. After all, it was Foucault > who proposed that ?Power is everywhere; not because it > embraces everything, but because it comes from > everywhere?. it is always local and unstable.? We should > study power, he suggests, by looking at resistance. The > aim of investigation, in his view, is critique, which > should arise from ?subjugated knowledges? and should > oppose the authority of those who would oppress, in order > to promote new forms of subjectivity. > > This thread began with a question (Andy?s) about > psychology as technology, as tool. If Rob is right, and > any tool can be used for any purpose, then any psychology > could be used for good or bad. But if I use a hammer to > make pancakes no one will want to eat them; most tools are > designed for specific purposes. That leaves us with the > question of whether a CHAT psychology designed to foster > self-control ? a kind of inverse behaviorism, helping > people master their own minds rather than controlling the > behavior of others ? is what we are looking for, for the > tasks at hand today. Andy, your previous message suggests > that a psychology that ignores social context will fall > into contradictions in its definition of ?self-control.? > Various people have tried to fill the gap that Vygotsky > left in CHAT by not saying much about the social context > of his time. Do we now have a technologically adequate > psychology? > > Here is a BBC program about the complex circumstances that > led to the writing of 1984. Orwell, it seems to me, > proposed that while a totalitarian state appreciates (and > expects) blind obedience, what it values more ? and what > it deploys its technology to achieve ? is conscious, > deliberate obedience. Yet Foucault might add that western > consumer culture values, and derives power from, the > illusion of freedom created by promising people unlimited > choice in various markets? (John Watson, of course, became > an advertising executive.) > https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qhb8b > > And here is an article on the way the technocratic moves > to ?master? nature led to disaster in Australia, and a > return to ?traditional? practices may be the way forward. > > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/world/australia/aboriginal-fire-management.html > > > Martin (still puzzled) > > > > >> On Jan 18, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> Foucault is the modern version of quietism. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> On 19/01/2020 10:32 am,robsub@ariadne.org.ukwrote: >>> Is this not Foucault's concept of governmentality? In >>> other words *you* control yourself the way *they* want >>> you to. >>> >>> Can "self-control" be regarded as a tool? Then, like all >>> tools, the purpose for which it is used depends on the user. >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> On 18/01/2020 20:48, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>>> Martin, (just catched your post quickly), I think your >>>> example makes it quite clear that self control and >>>> emancipation are not the same, right? Rhat is sort of >>>> what I was getting into when a few posts ago I pointed >>>> out that a lot of the meta-cognition and critical >>>> thinking etc? has made it to mainstream education for a >>>> good while now, including the so-called 21^st century >>>> skills, and yet, I would not consider much of what is >>>> done in formal education (and much of what is raised in >>>> educational research) as having that ?higher? moral >>>> character implied in the notion of emancipation (not to >>>> free oneself from conditions, which I think is what >>>> Haydi is getting at), and apparently much of what has >>>> been taught hasn?t been very useful for surviving the >>>> 21^st century? >>>> Haydi, thanks for your careful response and patience. >>>> Michael, what you just wrote (about being vs becoming), >>>> which is very much to the point, reminded me of Ortega >>>> y Gasset?s: ?The only thing that is given to us and >>>> that is when there is human life is the having to make >>>> it ? Life is a task? >>>> Alfredo >>>> *From:*on behalf of >>>> Martin Packer >>>> *Reply to:*"eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>> Activity" >>>> *Date:*Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:37 >>>> *To:*"eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>> Activity" >>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>>> Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread >>>> here, but something that has puzzled me for some time >>>> is this. If someone becomes able to control their own >>>> behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can >>>> engage in self-control in order to do something >>>> completely new, something that transforms their own >>>> ecology and opens up new possibilities for themselves >>>> and other people. True. But equally, a child can engage >>>> in self-control in order to do precisely what their >>>> caregiver (or their government) wants and tells them to >>>> do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both >>>> examples of ?executive function?? Are they both >>>> occasions of the higher psychological functions >>>> (deliberate and conscious)? >>>> Puzzled... >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> Michael and Andy, >>>> If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, >>>> I can help answer Michael's questions. As a >>>> long-time researcher of private (egocentric) >>>> speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions >>>> about the movement inward of signs (or, more >>>> precisely, the externally existing social system of >>>> speech communication) during child development as >>>> standing in sharp contrast to the nativist >>>> assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn >>>> biological system. But more pertinent to your >>>> discussion, by placing the source of human verbal >>>> thinking in the social sphere rather than the >>>> biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the >>>> primary function of signs as a social means for >>>> controlling the consciousness of others. What >>>> happens during the development of private speech is >>>> that this artificially created means of social >>>> control of others passes to the child as part of >>>> the process of acquiring the system of speech >>>> communication. As a derivative of the primary >>>> function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's >>>> means of controlling his or her own consciousness. >>>> Possessing control over one's own consciousness is >>>> nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh? >>>> Sorry to intervene!? Carry on. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Peter >>>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael >>>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I >>>> read it is the sentence ?Its theoretical goal >>>> is the prediction and control of behavior.? >>>> These days I see Vygotsky as advocating for >>>> thinking as a tool that can predict and control >>>> the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like >>>> most behaviorists) you can?t go inside the >>>> head. Is Vygotsky saying that internalized >>>> tools are the same as external tools? Is that >>>> why he emphasizes the initial external to >>>> internal migrations of tools we use to control >>>> the ecology around us? Was he trying to split >>>> this differences, you can go inside the head if >>>> you accept that was is inside the head is a >>>> consequence of what is outside the head? For me >>>> it puts the whole idea of contextualism in a >>>> different light. >>>> Michael >>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>> >*On >>>> Behalf Of*Andy Blunden >>>> *Sent:*Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM >>>> *To:*xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>>> Here is what J B Watson had to say about >>>> Behaviourism: >>>> >>>> ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is >>>> a purely objective experimental branch of >>>> natural science. Its theoretical goal is >>>> the prediction and control of behavior. >>>> Introspection forms no essential part of >>>> its methods, nor is the scientific value of >>>> its data dependent upon the readiness with >>>> which they lend themselves to >>>> interpretation in terms of consciousness. >>>> The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a >>>> unitary scheme of animal response, >>>> recognizes no dividing line between man and >>>> brute? (?Psychology as the Behaviorist >>>> Views it?, 1913) >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>>> >>>> What you write makes sense to me, Michael. >>>> I meant behaviorism as a science of control >>>> from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise >>>> the question ?what type of pedagogy do >>>> arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and >>>> conditioning) as your main explanatory >>>> scheme?? If you raise the same question >>>> from a sociocultural perspective, the >>>> answer is quite different, and allows for >>>> issues of freedom in a whole new light. >>>> In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think >>>> you render a valid reading. >>>> Although I think that today?s school >>>> curricula in most countries are quite >>>> explicit on the importance of the >>>> ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer >>>> to, rather than on educating for jobs >>>> (although I can see that is still the >>>> underlying assumption). You can read about >>>> those skills in the so-called XXIst century >>>> skills, very extended in recent educational >>>> reforms (including critical thinking >>>> skills, creativity, collaborative skills, >>>> digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that >>>> the ecosocial crises that we are facing are >>>> very quickly and patently showing how >>>> narrow our understandings of the sort of >>>> skills needed to survive in the XXIst >>>> century are. I think that what the climate >>>> crisis is showing us is that we need to >>>> connect those notions of thinking with the >>>> practical socio-economical organization of >>>> power and of the relations of humans with >>>> nature. I don?t remember now where I read >>>> that a scientist had been including spikes >>>> of civil activism, disobedience, and social >>>> disrest in his/her climate prediction >>>> computer models, and was showing that these >>>> were the only variables that may have a >>>> largest, quickest effect in achieving the >>>> gas emission reductions needed (if you can >>>> reduce the solution to reducing gas >>>> emissions?). I think events today are >>>> re-writing the way ?progressing towards a >>>> modern world? made concious thinking more >>>> relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! >>>> Alfredo >>>> *From:* >>>> on >>>> behalf of "Glassman, >>>> Michael" >>>> >>>> *Reply to:*"eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>> Activity" >>>> >>>> *Date:*Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 >>>> *To:*"eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>> Activity" >>>> >>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>>> Hi Alfredo and Andy, >>>> I am not sure I agree with this >>>> characterization of behaviorism. Especially >>>> at the time he was writing behaviorism was >>>> for the most part I think focusing on the >>>> behaviors of individuals rather than going >>>> inside the head to understand what >>>> individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, >>>> from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think >>>> at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a >>>> cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am >>>> wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this >>>> point as not so much discussing control of >>>> individuals by those outside them (at least >>>> not directly) but the ways individuals are >>>> able to control the ecologies around them. >>>> He sees this occurring in two possible >>>> ways, being able to use internalized tools >>>> in order to directly control the ecology, >>>> and being able to control their own >>>> thinking so that they can actually play >>>> (not the right word) with these >>>> internalized symbols before applying them. >>>> He has not difficulty with the former, and >>>> all that is really necessary is to be >>>> taught different applications for limited >>>> situations. But as we progressed to a >>>> modern world the ability to lead a >>>> satisfactory life from a small set of >>>> applications you might say becomes more and >>>> more difficult. Humans developed more >>>> abstract thinking, controlling their >>>> thoughts to deal with a quickly changing >>>> and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded >>>> conscious effort on the part of social >>>> interlocutors (formal teaching). The >>>> difficulty he raises in the socialist >>>> alteration of man is that this type of >>>> conscious effort was limited to only a >>>> small population that then used their more >>>> adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to >>>> say advanced) to manipulate (to >>>> differentiate from control) those who were >>>> on the lower rungs of society. I mean we >>>> continue to do this today when we argue to >>>> educate students for specific jobs but do >>>> not offer broader education in thinking >>>> (there is nothing wrong in training in >>>> skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but >>>> unless we teach people to manipulate their >>>> thinking about those skills they will never >>>> really have control of what they do in a >>>> complex society. I don?t think that is what >>>> Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but >>>> it does set up a road map for where he >>>> wants to go, which I actually think you can >>>> see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. >>>> Michael >>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> *On >>>> Behalf Of*Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>> *Sent:*Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM >>>> *To:*eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>> Activity >>>> >>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>>> Andy, all, >>>> Behaviorism as the science of controlling >>>> people, as the opposite of an emancipatory >>>> science, is exactly how I teach it in my >>>> learning theory courses. I too find the >>>> most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts >>>> as aiming at an emancipatory science, >>>> although clearly the instrumental bend in >>>> some of the formulations gets in the way, >>>> including the terminology of ?control? that >>>> also characterized, for example, Dewey?s >>>> ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control >>>> of behavior? could for example be as well >>>> formulated as the object-oriented activity >>>> of a social movement, which precisely aims >>>> to gain ?control? over conditions for >>>> development; only that ?control? might be a >>>> quite misleading way of posing it? >>>> Alfredo >>>> *From:*>>> > >>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>> >>> > >>>> *Reply to:*"eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>> Activity" >>> > >>>> *Date:*Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 >>>> *To:*"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> " >>>> >>> > >>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>>> Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his >>>> (translated) word. He wants "a scientific >>>> theory which would lead to the >>>> subordination and mastery of the mind, to >>>> the artificial control of behaviour" and >>>> whether he likes Munsterberg or personality >>>> testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. >>>> Now there/is/an ambiguity in Vygotsky's >>>> claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would >>>> define as the science of controlling >>>> people, and as such is the opposite of an >>>> emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is >>>> mainly interested in, on the other hand, is >>>> giving to people the capacity to >>>> control/their own/mind. But this is not >>>> clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky >>>> himself wasn't clear. His writing on >>>> "socialist man" and the business with lie >>>> detectors suggest that there were some >>>> blind spots there. >>>> Anyway, I was only interested in using the >>>> quote for my own purposes in contrasting >>>> the academic literature on "social Movement >>>> Studies" and that genre of social movement >>>> literature written by and for activist, >>>> which is usually narrative or >>>> autobiographical in style, and in the above >>>> sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: >>>> >>>> I don?t know, the sense I get is that >>>> he was really criticizing Musterberg, >>>> not embracing him, at least from what I >>>> read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to >>>> believe we should be wary of this idea >>>> of a practical psychology that can use >>>> empirical means to look predict human >>>> behavior. One hint I get from the piece >>>> is his mention of using practical >>>> psychology to determine whether people >>>> should be tram drivers. To me it sounds >>>> like he was arguing also against the >>>> rising use of intelligence tests as a >>>> psychological tool. James brought over >>>> Musterberg in part I think to explore >>>> the idea of empirical psychology and >>>> Musterberg it seems wound up merging >>>> empirical and practical in ways that >>>> Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, >>>> rightfully suggesting it would send >>>> psychology towards the types of >>>> practical models of the physical >>>> sciences where it did not belong, >>>> something that I think has plagued the >>>> field since. At least from my reading >>>> of this piece is that Vygotsky also >>>> found it confusing that Musterberg by >>>> following James was also grabbing hold >>>> of an idealist vision of psychology, >>>> that people behave in certain ways >>>> because they were human. Vygotsky >>>> seemed to think that there was no way >>>> to reconcile this. At this moment I see >>>> this as sort of a precursor of where >>>> Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to >>>> merge the idealist vision with a >>>> material approach but not falling into >>>> a trap in either direction. He did not >>>> want to be Wundt and he did not want to >>>> be Musterberg, he definitely wanted >>>> nothing to do with the intelligence >>>> testers who combined ?empirical? and >>>> practical psychology for ideological >>>> reasons (just recently heard about >>>> Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic >>>> violence. I think that might fit in here). >>>> Michael >>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> *On >>>> Behalf Of*Jussi Silvonen >>>> *Sent:*Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM >>>> *To:*mike cole >>>> ; eXtended Mind, >>>> Culture, >>>> Activity >>>> >>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>>> Mike, >>>> take a look at Internet Archive >>>> (archive.org ), >>>> you can find PDF files of most of >>>> M?nsterberg's books there. It is >>>> obvious, that M?sterberg had? a great >>>> influence on LSV, at least in his >>>> theory's instrumental phase. >>>> JusSi >>>> ---------------- >>>> Jussi Silvonen >>>> Dosentti >>>> It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus >>>> Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto >>>> PL 111 (Metria) >>>> 80101 Joensuu >>>> ------------------ >>>> https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home >>>> >>>> https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen >>>> >>>> http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *L?hett?j?:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>> > >>>> k?ytt?j?n mike cole >>> > puolesta >>>> *L?hetetty:*keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta >>>> 2020 19.56 >>>> *Vastaanottaja:*eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>> Activity >>> > >>>> *Aihe:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? >>>> In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and >>>> was deeply immersed in the problem of >>>> the "two psychologies" that LSV sought >>>> to supercede. For a quick take on >>>> "psychotechnics" in work, check his >>>> book out on google and search the term. >>>> For example, >>>> >>>> Psychotechnics is really a technical >>>> science related to a causal >>>> [experimental-mc] psychology as >>>> engineering is related to physics. >>>> Psychotechnics necessarily refers to >>>> the future while the psychohistorical >>>> sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, >>>> 1915, p.354) >>>> >>>> It would be interesting to stage a >>>> discussion bertween?Munsterberg and >>>> LSV. Which one would have more to say >>>> for his accomplishments view from, say, >>>> 2020? >>>> And if someone has a pdf of the book, >>>> please sing out! >>>> mike >>>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM >>>> Glassman, Michael >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I don?t know, I read it that he was >>>> criticizing Munsterberg with his >>>> discussion of psychotechnics, which >>>> I guess was the title of >>>> Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it >>>> reads like Vygotsky was thinking >>>> Munsterberg was falling into a >>>> dangerous materialist trap. Maybe >>>> that?s what you are saying Andy. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>> >*On >>>> Behalf Of*Andy Blunden >>>> *Sent:*Wednesday, January 15, 2020 >>>> 2:39 AM >>>> *To:*xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful >>>> psychology? >>>> >>>> This is what I was looking for: >>>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 >>>> >>>> It was the exclusion of >>>> "psychotechnics" from the >>>> fundamental problems of psychology >>>> which he objected to. On the >>>> contrary, the philosophy of >>>> practice provided all the solutions >>>> to these problems."The goal of such >>>> a psychology is not Shakespeare in >>>> concepts, as it was for Dilthey, >>>> but */in one word ? >>>> psychotechnics/*, i.e., a >>>> scientific theory which would lead >>>> to the subordination and mastery of >>>> the mind, to the artificial control >>>> of behaviour." >>>> >>>> Thanks all. >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David >>>> Kellogg wrote: >>>> >>>> But psychotechnics was really >>>> the Soviet version of human >>>> resource management. The idea >>>> was to select particular >>>> "types" for particular jobs. It >>>> wasn't really a Soviet idea--it >>>> started in Germany (and in >>>> fact, the Nazis were very big >>>> on it; the selection ramp at >>>> Auschwitz was based on it). In >>>> China, there was also quite a >>>> bit of emphasis on making sure >>>> that people suited the >>>> professions chosen for them, as >>>> education was a very scarce >>>> resource. >>>> >>>> Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's >>>> brother, who was a colleague of >>>> Vygotsky--was a >>>> psychotechnician; his essay on >>>> the language of the Red Army >>>> soldier is written with that >>>> perspective in mind. And it was >>>> at a psychotechnic conference >>>> that Vygotsky was asked if >>>> there could be a pedology of >>>> adults, to aid in psychotechnic >>>> selection. >>>> >>>> Vygotsky said no. >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: 'Commentary: On >>>> the originality of Vygotsky's >>>> "Thought and Word" i >>>> >>>> in/Mind Culture and Activity/ >>>> >>>> /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>>> / >>>> >>>> Some free e-prints available at: >>>> >>>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>>> >>>> >>>> New Translation with Nikolai >>>> Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's >>>> Pedological Works Volume One: >>>> Foundations of Pedology" >>>> >>>> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM >>>> mike cole >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Might you be looking for >>>> ?psychotechnics? Andy? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at >>>> 7:35 PM David Kellogg >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy-- >>>> >>>> That really doesn't >>>> sound like Vygotsky to me. >>>> >>>> Yes, he refers to art >>>> as the "social >>>> technique of emotion" >>>> (Psychology of Art). >>>> Yes, he did experiments >>>> on reading "Gentle >>>> Breath" to see if >>>> Bunin's short story had >>>> any affect on breathing >>>> rates. But as far as I >>>> know he had nothing to >>>> do with Luria's work on >>>> lie detectors (in The >>>> Nature of Human >>>> Conflict), and he was >>>> even rather skeptical >>>> of Luria's work on >>>> optical illusions in >>>> "uneducated" peoples >>>> >>>> . Remember, this is the >>>> guy who denied that a >>>> general psychology >>>> could ever cut itself >>>> off from practice and >>>> vice versa (History of >>>> the Crisis in >>>> Psychology), who >>>> rejected the idea that >>>> thinking is speech with >>>> the sound turned off >>>> (Thinking and Speech). >>>> Besides, who ever heard >>>> of a technology opposed >>>> to an epistemology? >>>> What would that mean? A >>>> hand without a brain? >>>> >>>> Vygotsky sounds more >>>> like this: "Neither the >>>> hand nor the brain left >>>> to itself can do much." >>>> Francis Bacon,/Novum >>>> Organum/(1620), Book 1, >>>> Aphorism 2. >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: >>>> 'Commentary: On the >>>> originality of >>>> Vygotsky's "Thought and >>>> Word" i >>>> >>>> in/Mind Culture and >>>> Activity/ >>>> >>>> /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>>> / >>>> >>>> Some free e-prints >>>> available at: >>>> >>>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at >>>> 11:49 AM Andy Blunden >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> There's somewhere >>>> where Vygotsky >>>> talks about >>>> psychology as a >>>> technology as >>>> opposed to (for >>>> example) an >>>> epistemology. Can >>>> anyone point me to >>>> where this >>>> observation is to >>>> be found. I can >>>> find it with my >>>> search engines. I >>>> think Vygotsky and >>>> Luria's invention >>>> of the lie-detector >>>> has been mentioned >>>> in this connection. >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> Hegel for Social >>>> Movements >>>> >>>> Home Page >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> ?fiction is but a form of >>>> symbolic action, a mere >>>> game of ?as if?, therein >>>> lies its true ?function and >>>> its potential for effecting >>>> change - R. Ellison >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> For archival resources >>>> relevant to the research of >>>> myself and other members of >>>> LCHC, visit >>>> >>>> lchc.ucsd.edu >>>> . >>>> For a narrative history of >>>> the research of LCHC, >>>> visitlchcautobio.ucsd.edu >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ?fiction is but a form of symbolic >>>> action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein >>>> lies its true ?function and its >>>> potential for effecting change - R. Ellison >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> For archival resources relevant to the >>>> research of myself and other members of >>>> LCHC, visit >>>> lchc.ucsd.edu >>>> . >>>> For a narrative history of the research >>>> of LCHC, visitlchcautobio.ucsd.edu >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. >>>> Director, >>>> Office of Institutional Research >>>> >>>> Fordham University >>>> Thebaud Hall-202 >>>> Bronx, NY 10458 >>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243 >>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817 >>>> email:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200119/0a5ecf06/attachment-0001.html From haydizulfei@gmail.com Sun Jan 19 07:44:17 2020 From: haydizulfei@gmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 19:14:17 +0330 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <362B9519-6B85-49CB-8294-EBDB1A666544@uio.no> Message-ID: Michael, I see when I was asleep , you had the short convincing reply from Martin. I hope this is not a charge on them. But to take the burden on my own shoulder I?d say on my screen I have 15 lines from you but to my perspective it seems a dozen of books not that I?m so great a man of knowledge. Nnnnnnnnno! On every side I see the great ones. The way it seems to me we have two basic choices about humans. Humans either are or they become. If they are then reactions, capabilities are innate. If they become then these reactions and capabilities are in reaction to the ecology (stimulus unless somebody has a better concept). I see Vygotsky falling in to the same category. This existential question is who controls the stimulus response feedback loop. Reply : A. Please read ?one is not born a personality? though I?m sure you have the whole story in every respect. B. That takes us to the idea that from individual to a person there?s a very long way to cover. C. This has a tight connection with the social meaning and personal sense in Vygotsky and Leontiev. D. We ask ourselves why man is not a stuffy entity but the ensemble of social relations. E. It?s not outright to have a look at Hegel?s start of Logic in regard to this discussion. F. To have a look at Marx?s Method of Political economy where the being of the Social Being is pre-supposed when the idea of the ascent from the abstract to the concrete occurs. And many more ? With the ?who controls the stimulus response feedback loop? you fortunately passed Being and entered Essence [of Man]. When man is born but stagnated , maximally they become the sort of the Genie creature because this likely creature was not appropriately conditioned , deprived of a human ecology then deprived of her contributions to the arsenal of the transformative processes both ontologically and epistemologically as well. Man is not just the creature who gives to the ecology and receives from the ecology. What works is the what and how of this giving and receiving. The beginning of this receiving we see in the Chim who in the available visual field can handle the rods to reach the branch and in the pusher of the game who gets raw-fully that the pushing brings him the share of the hunt. But neither the former invented the Crane let alone the Robotic Automaton nor the latter could think of finding the very calories in pills and capsules. For a better concept , one could think of ?human needs in their hierarchies and orientations. End of Reply. Two individuals can give the same response to a stimulus and that the feedback is completely different means the ecological feedback has great power in determining our responses. Vygotsky?s first step, it seems to me, is to agree with Kohler. Non-humans do not have the ability to remember responses to stimuli which gives them limited control over their ecology. If I give you an apple on Tuesday and you give me five dollars it is a great advantage to know that if I give you an apple on Thursday you will give me another five dollars. Vygotsky hypothesized a set of external moving to internal tools for this (semiotic mediation) but I think that is an idea he was using to explain the process but it was not basic to what he was after. Reply : Yes , we have this in CHAT. The child gets the passing success by cheating but cries painfully afterwards and there appears a search for delivery. The intentional will might disentangle the knot. But the problem is how this intentional will comes into being and how it develops. Is the intentionality a matter of degrees in different ages or is it an absolute once for all phenomenon? There or Becoming? Why does the one year old fail the intention? There are the age crises. Not just the age crises but all crises come out of contradictions. Any phenomenon has its time of birth , its middle active life , and its perishing period and time of death to give its place to a new phenomenon which one has been concepted within the womb of the previous one keeping the positive features discarding the negative ones [sublation]. For this we should be familiar with the quant/qual , continuity/discontinuity , and necessity/chance categories. The other one continues with his cheating to become a man of fortunes as we see in our days. What causes the difference? Here we remember Vasilyuk?s investigation of perezhivanie and how to regain a relief. And seeing a population not as an initial combinations of sums , of equal partners , then deducing from it to reach the idea that the ?Wealth of the Nation? belongs to this integrity. The class phenomenon and concept I mean. And then you discuss Memory as a non-monopolistically human advantage. I?m living in a relevant situation. I wonder if you have the breaking news each day. Incidentally , on Tuesday , I had the dollars enough for a flight travel ticket. But on Thursday , though I had the clear recall , I had to cancel the flight. The more I scratched the Brain , the less I found out why the compulsion. Some intimate friend opted for a solution. The other day he brought me Volume 3 of Capital and exhausted his energies to make me understand what the cause was. It was nothing but the Global Money which is the last metamorphosis in Monetary conceptual development. It?s not an imaginary tale , friend! It?s the reality of our day to day lives. It?s the same ecology. It?s the this World. However , ecological fluctuations as you dub it , ruins the very lives of people. And as you love the idea of the Becoming , I should tell you that Brains and Minds and memories are also developing all along the ways of the World and the Conditions. Past memories are effective but just not enough. The dog also remembers her owner and trainer. What the tigers do in circus are not all instincts ; otherwise the trainer in one instant would be finished with the existence. Creativity and facing odd novelties of the complicated life affairs knows no Memory as the simple recall for a finishing task of man?s onward progress. Scientific analysis and synthesis of the fabrics of the actual situations , going from the surface to the depths of the cash conflicts and antinomies and contradictions and finding about what is underlined which causes surface phenomena is the way to have a deep understanding of the conflicts and how to give them an appropriate resolution. End of Reply. As we move to a more modern society we begin to recognize that we not only remember how to react to different stimuli , but with the right reactions we have the ability to control the stimulus and therefore manipulate the stimulus response loop. In other words more power is given to the responder. I plant wheat in a field. It does not grow. I respond by not planting wheat anymore. But what if I ask my neighbor and he tells me he was successful on a field on the other side of the mountain. I don?t own any fields on the other side of the mountain but I go look at them and figure out what they have (maybe streams running down from a mountain). So I look for fields with a similar water supply. People who are able to use their thinking as a tool in this way have a great advantage. Of course there is no way this would naturally come from interacting with the environment. You could not learn this type of control of your thinking just through natural stimulus response patterns. But even here I don?t think this is what Vygotsky was really after. Then what I think you find it in his critique of Piaget. Vygotsky agrees with Piaget (really I think this tribalism has really hurt education, thinking epistemology). His big critique I think is why Piaget thinks the change in thinking (from concrete to more abstract) would happen at all. People do not naturally embrace conflict and change. It would be easiest for the farmer to just give up on planting wheat. It would be easiest for the neighbor to not mention the fields on the other side of the mountain (would you?). What is the mechanism, what causes this to happen? I think this is where Vygotsky started his search and it is where he (unfortunately much too early) ended it. Reply : Intelligent complex processes are not that simple. Maybe you?re giving me concrete examples. Many thanks for that. You have all the surface means available to you yet you don?t have good harvests years after years. You take the seeds of the neighbor?s farm and those of your own to a scientific laboratory. The researcher tells you why even with the provision of water you didn?t take good results. It?s the contamination of the hands of planters with some microscopic tiny particles of some powdery substance that has caused the harm. You as a skilled farmer but lacking chemical science could not have been efficient enough to make your efforts yield fruitful results just by visual perspectives , with the natural eyes. Again distinguishing between sensual perceptual cognition and true rational cognition as elucidated repeatedly. If you read Marx , please read how the tendency of the ratio of profits to fall while the volume of the profit tends to increase is justified by Marx and how the capitalists succeeded temporarily to improve the situation. Again the problem is not why beautiful effective ways of thinking provide solutions. The first problem is why in many similar ways very beautiful effective ways of thinking do not bring up favorable results. For the problem of the Global Warming many intelligent powerful Minds have been and are at work but the solution is not the near objective. Then thoughts do not always and necessarily find their ways to appropriate actions and to a good finish. Second , even with perfect effective productive ways of thinking (scientific endeavors) the question of the Genetics of Thoughts is at issue. End of Reply. So I question whether it is right to say behaviorism is about prediction and control and Vygotsky theory is not. Unless the theory is completely idealistic there is going to be some element of prediction and control in human behavior. Reply : As explained fully , I believe the first part is not helpful but the second part in its entirety IS. Dear Michael! You and Alfredo were very kind to consider my posts. I give my sincere thanks. Maybe in the future we have time again to deal with Vygotsky?s critique on Piaget. Best wishes Haydi P.S. As I can?t keep up with the coming trailing threads , I might fail a likely timely response. Sorry for that if any! On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 11:40 PM Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hello Haydi and Alfredo, > > > > The way it seems to me we have two basic choices about humans. Humans > either are or they become. If they are then reactions, capabilities are > innate. If they become then these reactions and capabilities are in > reaction to the ecology (stimulus unless somebody has a better concept). I > see Vygotsky falling in to the same category. This existential question is > who controls the stimulus response feedback look. Two individuals can give > the same response to a stimulus and that the feedback is completely > different means the ecological feedback has great power in determining our > responses. Vygotsky?s first step, it seems to me, is to agree with Kohler. > Non-humans to not have the ability to remember responses to stimulus which > gives them limited control over their ecology. If I give you an apple on > Tuesday and you give me five dollars it is a great advantage to know that > if I give you an apple on Thursday you will give me another five dollars. > Vygotsky hypothesized a set of external moving to internal tools for this > (semiotic mediation) but I think that is an idea he was using to explain > the process but it was not basic to what he was after. > > > > As we move to a more modern society we begin to recognize that we not only > remember how to react to different stimulus, but with the right reactions > we have the ability to control the stimulus and therefore manipulate the > stimulus response loop. In other words more power is given to the > responder. I plant wheat in a field. It does not grow. I respond by not > planting wheat anymore. But what if I ask my neighbor and he tells me he > was successful on a field on the other side of the mountain. I don?t own > any fields on the other side of the mountain but I go look at them and > figure out what they have (maybe streams running down from a mountain). So > I look for fields with a similar water supply. People who are able to use > their thinking as a tool in this way have a great advantage. Of course > there is no way this would naturally come from interacting with the > environment. You could not learn this type of control of your thinking just > through natural stimulus response patterns. But even here I don?t think > this is what Vygotsky was really after. Then what. I think you find it in > his critique of Piaget. Vygotsky agrees with Piaget (really I think this > tribalism has really hurt education, thinking epistemology). His big > critique I think is why Piaget things the change in thinking (from concrete > to more abstract) would happen at all. People do not naturally embrace > conflict and change. It would be easiest for the farmer to just give up on > planting wheat. I would be easiest for the neighbor to not mention the > fields on the other side of the mountain (would you?). What is the > mechanism, what causes this to happen? I think this is where Vygotsky > started his search and it is where he (unfortunately much too early) ended > it. > > > > So I question whether it is right to say behaviorism is about prediction > and control and Vygotsky theory is not. Unless the theory is completely > idealistic there is going to be some element of prediction and control in > human behavior. > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Haydi Zulfei > *Sent:* Saturday, January 18, 2020 11:41 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Andy, all, > > > > *1*Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of > an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory > courses. *2*I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as > aiming at an emancipatory science, *3*although clearly the instrumental > bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology > of*4* ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on > inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be *5*as > well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which > *6*precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; * 7*only > that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? > > > > Alfredo, > > This is what I replied to. Sorry I pressed the wrong button to reply > therefore you?re in doubt which of your posts I was replying to. You?re > right. > > 1I wonder if the matter for you is the preference of one science over the > other or that you take both of them as complementary ones in your > pedagogical courses. > > On either case , I wouldn?t think Vygotsky is on your side with > Behaviorism on what I explained in both my messages. If there?s vagueness > in my argument in this respect , please refer to them verbatim. > > 2 says Vygotsky?s science brings up emancipation. > > 3 says ?the instrumental bend? , as you take it , is the obstacle in the > process of emancipation. What?s this ?instrumental bend?. It seems you?re > referring to the periodic divisions in Vygotsky?s career which is not one > but several. > > 4 gives us a clear example of the instrumental bend as the ?terminology of > control?. Then , we have the concept of ?control? in both Behaviorism and > Emancipatory science. In the latter case you don?t like it. > > With 5 [as well] we also understand what you cannot come into terms with > is the ?artificial control of behavior? generally even when we pose for the > choice of the emancipatory science. I think here is where we can find the > knot. Why is the object-oriented activity an obstacle in the way to > development. And whether Vygotsky wholly even in his thinking and speech > rejects this approach? What about his formation of concepts? What about his > final part in thinking and speech where he emphasizes he , in fact , should > have chosen a reverse order. That have always taken me to his unread work , > that is , the Book of Praxis and Thought. > > which 6precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; > 7only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? > > I very much like to see if this gaining CONTROL over CONDITIONS FOR > DEVELOPMENT means control-free development is favorable or non-control-free > development is favorable on dear Alfredo?s view. But the terms ?only? and > ?quite misleading? might come to the rescue. > > You assert ?conditions for development? but you?d like them to be free of > such controls. Then when I say freedom is on the Earth not in the air , I > refer you to the Origins and watersheds and genetics of Thoughts. Long ago > I read your editorial. There was Marx. But I think Felix Mikhailov?s Marx. > If you have any advice for me to read Marx again to see if practical > activity with conscious goals is obstacle to free development or conditions > for development (in which case you should be kind enough to clarify what > those conditions are which seem favorable to you which you don?t like them > to be fettered by ?controls?) please say what source. This is just a > prelude to what I wrote previously not concentrating much on your new post. > > High regards and best wishes > > Haydi > > > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 4:05 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > Hi Haydi, > > > > I am not sure if I understand what you mean entirely, specially when I > arrive at your assertion that I ?talk of free development as though it can > be achieved in a vacuum and in the air?? which I am not sure if you are > addressing to my prior post; certainly not what I was aiming to do. In any > case, to take up some of the threads I gather from your e-mail, I?d say we > can assert the issues of control about behaviourism without rejecting the > notion of conditions as false or unnecessary. As I said, the issue of > behaviourism and of controlling others is a question of pedagogy to me; of > how you organize education and development, as practice, based on that > epistemology. Not that pedagogy itself can or could exist without > conditions or conditionings. I think what is interesting is the constrains > and affordances that come with different approaches as theoretical > technologies or economies (as means for organizing activity), and what > forms of activity open up when you consider other approaches. > > > > I know, for example, some scholars (e.g., A. Surmava) who argue that the > whole theory of Vygotsky is constrained by having initially accepted the > S-R scheme as the starting point (adding the third element of cultural > mediation in the famous triangle), when that initial scheme itself may be > questioned as an adequate characterization of the most basic principle of > life to take as starting point. > > Best wishes, > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of Haydi Zulfei < > haydizulfei@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 18:39 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Alfredo, > > I?m just concentrating on your own word whether borrowed or created. How > is behaviorism the science of controlling people? > > The science which allows people to salivate without control , lead their > lives just by associations which function is carried out by second signals > as the ringtone functions as the Real food. Is that what you mean? > > I might have forgotten Vygotsky and Leontiev. But from what I can take > from your own saying , it seems that the reverse might be the case. Because > we reject behaviorism as it does not go far beyond sensation and perception > to reach true cognition. And as we are talking about sciences , we should > be familiar with how concepts and categories are acquired. How we ascend > from the abstract to the concrete. How we form ideas , concepts and > categories by our acting on the World .That will take us to the concepts of > necessity and freedom. Vygotsky has much to say how actuality leads to > concepts. We cry of not being able to have control over our chaotic > behavior ; therefore we seek shelter in goal-oriented activities. Actions > conduit not unbridled. > > But in this you again see defects , conditions! How can one conduct an > action without being involved in Conditions (Ecology you say , OK.) ? > Conditions in the language of philosophy becomes Necessity which concept > Vygotsky likes and spends times to clarify its coming into being and this > is the niceties of Vygotsky?s work. One might take thought into word as one > direct line from external to internal. How energetic he was to see how it > shapes and it what phases and stages! He takes the blocks as real things > yet unrecognized or not gone through stages of true cognition. If there are > not blocks with properties , ideas are not created and blocks are > conditioned in quasi-real life circumstance (first abstraction from the > real life situation) as commodities act as units of analysis in Capital. > > You , friend , talk of free development as though it can be achieved in > vacuum and in the air. Right now our unit of analysis in our current > science is that Bernie Sanders? Medicare is in the Senate. If we say this > unit involves the whole world , we have not overestimated it. I hope some > great scholar won?t ask me if I?m weaving politics or knowledge! > > Conditions come their own way out of our checks and controls. Freedom is > on the ground not in the air. How to know the shackles and how to change > their ways or how to remove them altogether. > > All the best > > Haydi > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:45 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a > science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question > ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and > conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same > question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, > and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. > > > > In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. > > > > Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite > explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you > refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is > still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the > so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms > (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, > digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we > are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our > understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century > are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to > connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical > organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t > remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of > civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate > prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only > variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas > emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas > emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing > towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a > digression, sorry! > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * on behalf of "Glassman, > Michael" > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Hi Alfredo and Andy, > > > > I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. > Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I > think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the > head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from > Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog > in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky > at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those > outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to > control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible > ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the > ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can > actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before > applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is > really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited > situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a > satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes > more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, > controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous > ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social > interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist > alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only > a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I > am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) > those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this > today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer > broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills > such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate > their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of > what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was > writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants > to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation > on Hamlet. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Andy, all, > > > > Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an > emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory > courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as > aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend > in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of > ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. > ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well > formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which > precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that > ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Andy Blunden < > andyb@marxists.org> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a > scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the > mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes > Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. > > Now there *is *an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for > example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such > is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly > interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to > control *their own* mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe > Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the > business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. > > Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in > contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that > genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is > usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense > "technic" rather than "epistemology." > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing > Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. > Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical > psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One > hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to > determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he > was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a > psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to > explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up > merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be > detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the > types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, > something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my > reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that > Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision > of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. > Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this > moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, > finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not > falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he > did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the > intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for > ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of > epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Jussi Silvonen > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM > *To:* mike cole ; eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Mike, > > > > take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org > ), > you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, > that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's > instrumental phase. > > > > JusSi > > ---------------- > Jussi Silvonen > Dosentti > It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus > Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto > PL 111 (Metria) > 80101 Joensuu > ------------------ > https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home > > https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen > > http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ > > ------------------------------ > > *L?hett?j?:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta > *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 > *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem > of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on > "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. > For example, > > > > Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal > [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. > Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical > sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) > > > > It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and > LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, > say, 2020? > > > > And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! > > mike > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his > discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s > last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was > falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying > Andy. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of > psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of > practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such > a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but *in > one word ? psychotechnics*, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to > the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of > behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource > management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. > It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the > Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on > it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that > people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very > scarce resource. > > > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a > psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is > written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic > conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, > to aid in psychotechnic selection. > > > > Vygotsky said no. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Andy-- > > > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. > > > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of > Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's > short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had > nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human > Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical > illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could > ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound > turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology > opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? > > > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to > itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, > Aphorism 2. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > * > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as > opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this > observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think > Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in > this connection. > > Andy > > > > -- > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein > lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, > therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - > R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200119/f16d98d1/attachment.html From bjones@ucsd.edu Sun Jan 19 07:53:34 2020 From: bjones@ucsd.edu (Bruce Jones) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 07:53:34 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] ELDM2020 submission extended | Embodied interactions, Languaging and the Dynamic Medium In-Reply-To: <8736cgvn1s.fsf@normalesup.org> References: <8736cgvn1s.fsf@normalesup.org> Message-ID: >From: S?bastien Lerique To: XMCA Forum Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:58:39 +0100 Message-ID: <8736cgvn1s.fsf@normalesup.org> Dear all, This has appeared in Annalisa's latest thread, but as I'm extending the submission deadline to January 20 I thought I might make a more formal follow-up. I'm organising a workshop bringing together communities that might interest this list. The announcement is below, please forward it to your local communities and lists! Best wishes, S?bastien --- The "Embodied interactions, Languaging and the Dynamic Medium Workshop" (ELDM2020) is an event gathering interests and works in embodiment, languaging, diversity computing and humane technologies, on **18th February in Lyon, France**. Recent developments in these communities are ripe for focused conversations, and this workshop will be a coming-together for cross-pollination and explorations of possible common futures. Invited speakers: - Elena Clare Cuffari (Worcester State University) - Mark Dingemanse (Radboud University) - Omar Rizwan (Dynamicland.org) - Jelle van Dijk (University of Twente) The call for proposals (copied below) has been extended and welcomes submissions from researchers, technologists and artists alike. Participation is free of charge, and refreshments will be provided. If you are interested in proposing something but have questions, don't hesitate to ask at sebastien.lerique@normalesup.org . Find out more on the website: https://wehlutyk.gitlab.io/eldm2020/ Important dates: - Submission deadline: 20th January 2020 - Notification of acceptance: 22nd January 2020 - Registration opened: 1st January 2020 - Registration closes: 10th February 2020 Please forward this announcement as much as possible to your own lists and communities! Call for Proposals ------------------ Our understanding of language is currently undergoing a major shift as practitioners and researchers from many fields recognise the constitutive role of embodied interactions in its emergence. Instead of a primarily symbolic capacity, language is increasingly seen as an activity fluidly grown from our enaction (i.e. our co-generation and navigation) of ties and interactions with other bodies. The complexity of language as we know it seems to be not so much the result of individual brain-based computing capacities as an emergence from our constant negotiation of the tensions inherent to the dynamics of everyday interactions. Languaging, rather than language, is thus a particular way of engaging with others and the world around us, and pervades all levels of our action and perception. A strikingly parallel move is happening in the technology world: reconnecting with research ideas lost behind the emergence of the Personal Computer, technologists have started to break the stranglehold of designing devices for the brain in a vat, which effectively restricts our relationship to machines (and through them to other humans) to minute finger movements in front of a small screen filled with symbols. Instead, mediums are being designed to appeal to body and mind indistinctly, developing rich manual and spatial dynamics to facilitate interactions with people and machines, without substituting themselves to an environment conceived as already rich. Instead of isolating individuals into bodily inertness, such systems are designed to support us in navigating interactions with other people and with our own thought processes. These two movements share strong views about the ways in which technological creations and scientific questions about body and mind can be more ethical and humane, while coming from complementary starting points. For instance, the study of languaging is concerned with broader experimental validation, when medium design could benefit from theoretical work to guide future design choices. The ELDM workshop aims to bring these communities together to share views and needs. We call for contributions concerned with embodied interactions, languaging, and humane or interaction-centric computing mediums, and propose a space to cross-pollinate and exchange about current developments in academia, technology and arts. General topics ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ - Embodied interactions - Languaging - Humane dynamic medium - Complexity of interactions - Enactive cognitive science - Diversity and alterity computing - Human-computer-human interaction - Interaction nurturing and support Guidelines for submitting ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ There are up to 6 slots for contributed talks or demos, and up to 20 poster slots. Talks will be 20 minutes presentation and 10 minutes questions. If you are interested in submitting but have doubts or questions, ask at sebastien.lerique@normalesup.org ! To submit, please write to sebastien.lerique@normalesup.org with the subject line "ELDM2020 Submission", and include: - an abstract of about 300 words - your preference for oral or poster presentation (or another format you would like to propose, e.g. an exhibition) - the list of authors and affiliations if applicable From bjones@ucsd.edu Sun Jan 19 08:09:32 2020 From: bjones@ucsd.edu (Bruce Jones) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 08:09:32 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: ELDM2020 submission extended | Embodied interactions, Languaging and the Dynamic Medium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6984c983-763e-9b1a-20e6-f924a4a1d1cc@ucsd.edu> There has been a problem getting email from Mr. Lerique passed to the list. Hence this forward: -------- Forwarded Message -------- >From: S?bastien Lerique To: XMCA Forum Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:58:39 +0100 Message-ID: <8736cgvn1s.fsf@normalesup.org> Dear all, This has appeared in Annalisa's latest thread, but as I'm extending the submission deadline to January 20 I thought I might make a more formal follow-up. I'm organising a workshop bringing together communities that might interest this list. The announcement is below, please forward it to your local communities and lists! Best wishes, S?bastien --- The "Embodied interactions, Languaging and the Dynamic Medium Workshop" (ELDM2020) is an event gathering interests and works in embodiment, languaging, diversity computing and humane technologies, on **18th February in Lyon, France**. Recent developments in these communities are ripe for focused conversations, and this workshop will be a coming-together for cross-pollination and explorations of possible common futures. Invited speakers: - Elena Clare Cuffari (Worcester State University) - Mark Dingemanse (Radboud University) - Omar Rizwan (Dynamicland.org) - Jelle van Dijk (University of Twente) The call for proposals (copied below) has been extended and welcomes submissions from researchers, technologists and artists alike. Participation is free of charge, and refreshments will be provided. If you are interested in proposing something but have questions, don't hesitate to ask at sebastien.lerique@normalesup.org . Find out more on the website: https://wehlutyk.gitlab.io/eldm2020/ Important dates: - Submission deadline: 20th January 2020 - Notification of acceptance: 22nd January 2020 - Registration opened: 1st January 2020 - Registration closes: 10th February 2020 Please forward this announcement as much as possible to your own lists and communities! Call for Proposals ------------------ Our understanding of language is currently undergoing a major shift as practitioners and researchers from many fields recognise the constitutive role of embodied interactions in its emergence. Instead of a primarily symbolic capacity, language is increasingly seen as an activity fluidly grown from our enaction (i.e. our co-generation and navigation) of ties and interactions with other bodies. The complexity of language as we know it seems to be not so much the result of individual brain-based computing capacities as an emergence from our constant negotiation of the tensions inherent to the dynamics of everyday interactions. Languaging, rather than language, is thus a particular way of engaging with others and the world around us, and pervades all levels of our action and perception. A strikingly parallel move is happening in the technology world: reconnecting with research ideas lost behind the emergence of the Personal Computer, technologists have started to break the stranglehold of designing devices for the brain in a vat, which effectively restricts our relationship to machines (and through them to other humans) to minute finger movements in front of a small screen filled with symbols. Instead, mediums are being designed to appeal to body and mind indistinctly, developing rich manual and spatial dynamics to facilitate interactions with people and machines, without substituting themselves to an environment conceived as already rich. Instead of isolating individuals into bodily inertness, such systems are designed to support us in navigating interactions with other people and with our own thought processes. These two movements share strong views about the ways in which technological creations and scientific questions about body and mind can be more ethical and humane, while coming from complementary starting points. For instance, the study of languaging is concerned with broader experimental validation, when medium design could benefit from theoretical work to guide future design choices. The ELDM workshop aims to bring these communities together to share views and needs. We call for contributions concerned with embodied interactions, languaging, and humane or interaction-centric computing mediums, and propose a space to cross-pollinate and exchange about current developments in academia, technology and arts. General topics ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ - Embodied interactions - Languaging - Humane dynamic medium - Complexity of interactions - Enactive cognitive science - Diversity and alterity computing - Human-computer-human interaction - Interaction nurturing and support Guidelines for submitting ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ There are up to 6 slots for contributed talks or demos, and up to 20 poster slots. Talks will be 20 minutes presentation and 10 minutes questions. If you are interested in submitting but have doubts or questions, ask at sebastien.lerique@normalesup.org ! To submit, please write to sebastien.lerique@normalesup.org with the subject line "ELDM2020 Submission", and include: - an abstract of about 300 words - your preference for oral or poster presentation (or another format you would like to propose, e.g. an exhibition) - the list of authors and affiliations if applicable From goymenyalcin@gmail.com Sun Jan 19 22:23:31 2020 From: goymenyalcin@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFsw6fEsW4gZ8O2eW1lbg==?=) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 09:23:31 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Historical Materialism Conference Ankara - Call for Papers Message-ID: Dear All, We are exited to share our CfP with you. I hope you will find time to contribute. Here is the call: Historical Materialism Ankara The Rise of New Authoritarianisms and the Agenda for Resistance April 10th ? 12th 2020 Middle East Technical University (METU) Faculty of Economics and Administrative Sciences PANEL/PAPER ABSTRACT SUBMISSION DEADLINE: FRIDAY 31TH JANUARY A Historical Materialism: Research in Critical Marxist Theory Conference In Association with Praksis Journal Turkish Social Sciences Association Sosyal Ara?t?rmalar Vakf? (Social Research Foundation), SAV M?lkiyeliler Birli?i and Political Science and Public Administration Department at METU Conference Fee*: Global North Global South Full Time Academics 70$ 50$ Low-waged 25$ 20$ Unwaged 10$ 5$*Payment Method and accomodation suggestions will be announced in coming dates. The rise of far right authoritarian regimes, nationalist and populist political parties and movements, and neo-conservative ideologies and politics across the globe, present a new challenge to states and to the global order. For those on the left and the center-right embracing neo-liberalism, the new challenges of autocratic leaders and fundamentalist radicalisms require analyses and responses. The popularity of those right movements, and their political success in both democratic politics and their political success in securing power within democratic politics has jeopardized the main tenets of liberal democracy. Increasingly, authoritarian and populist political strategies have frustrated democratic opposition movements and challenged political resistance. The left needs to understand the rise of the far right parties, examining their social/class basis as well as their historical and geographical context. Equally, the left needs to examine the effectiveness of its resistance and responses to the outrage of the right. The rise of authoritarianisms has had severe implications at the local as well as global levels, including diplomatic tensions, wars, refugee crises, ecological crises, urban crises, casual cultural and purposeful misogyny and racism. Historical Materialism Ankara invites contributions that enrich radical critical understandings of the present conjunctures. Papers that analysing the problems and developing coherent and effective responses are also welcome. Papers are especially encouraged on the following themes: ? Authoritarianisms old and new, and the lessons from history ? Changing conceptions of national security and democratic openness ? Recent/Ongoing changes in the state and global legal/political apparatuses and state-class relations ? Land politics and new authoritarianisms ? The political economy of new authoritarianism ? Marxist political theory and the genealogy of authoritarianism ? New fascisms: ideology, politics and impact ? Populism, theirs and ours? ? Trump and the state of American Imperialism ? The legacy of the states of emergency/exception: from France to Hong Kong In addition to these themes, HM Ankara also welcomes panel and paper proposals that advance Marxist and left radical thought and politics. This includes: ? Political economy, value theory and Capital ? Feminist, social reproduction, queer, crip and racial critiques ? The analysis of states: histories, ideologies and politics ? Culture, literature and the arts The conference will also include the following streams (see the links for full details): ? Sexuality and Political Economy Stream ? Authoritarianism, the Right and Contemporary Queer Politics ? Marxism and Islam Stream ? Marxism and the Political Economy of Islam ? Latin America Stream ? Comparing Authoritarianisms: Latin America and elsewhere ? Global Eastern Europe Stream ? Authoritarianism and Anti-Fascist Strategies, Past and Present ? Marxism and Ecology Stream ? Dimensions of the Ecological Crisis and Resistance Strategies ? Marxist Politics and Strategy Stream ? Looking for a New Strategy in Weary Times This conference is organised under the aegis of Historical Materialism: Research in Critical Marxist Theory (http://www.historicalmaterialism.org/), which supports a journal (http://www.historicalmaterialism.org/journal) a book series (https://brill.com/view/serial/HM) and Marxist conferences across the globe. PANEL/PAPER ABSTRACT SUBMISSION DEADLINE: FRIDAY 31TH JANUARY -- Ali Yal??n G?ymen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200120/0aecaac7/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: HM Ankara Call.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 215497 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200120/0aecaac7/attachment.pdf From goncu@uic.edu Sun Jan 19 22:50:50 2020 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 06:50:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Historical Materialism Conference Ankara - Call for Papers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Forwarding.. Regards, ag Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor, Emeritus University of Illinois at Chicago www.artingoncu.com/ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of yal?in g?ymen Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 12:24 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Historical Materialism Conference Ankara - Call for Papers Dear All, We are exited to share our CfP with you. I hope you will find time to contribute. Here is the call: Historical Materialism Ankara The Rise of New Authoritarianisms and the Agenda for Resistance April 10th ? 12th 2020 Middle East Technical University (METU) Faculty of Economics and Administrative Sciences PANEL/PAPER ABSTRACT SUBMISSION DEADLINE: FRIDAY 31TH JANUARY A Historical Materialism: Research in Critical Marxist Theory Conference In Association with Praksis Journal Turkish Social Sciences Association Sosyal Ara?t?rmalar Vakf? (Social Research Foundation), SAV M?lkiyeliler Birli?i and Political Science and Public Administration Department at METU Conference Fee*: Global North Global South Full Time Academics 70$ 50$ Low-waged 25$ 20$ Unwaged 10$ 5$ *Payment Method and accomodation suggestions will be announced in coming dates. The rise of far right authoritarian regimes, nationalist and populist political parties and movements, and neo-conservative ideologies and politics across the globe, present a new challenge to states and to the global order. For those on the left and the center-right embracing neo-liberalism, the new challenges of autocratic leaders and fundamentalist radicalisms require analyses and responses. The popularity of those right movements, and their political success in both democratic politics and their political success in securing power within democratic politics has jeopardized the main tenets of liberal democracy. Increasingly, authoritarian and populist political strategies have frustrated democratic opposition movements and challenged political resistance. The left needs to understand the rise of the far right parties, examining their social/class basis as well as their historical and geographical context. Equally, the left needs to examine the effectiveness of its resistance and responses to the outrage of the right. The rise of authoritarianisms has had severe implications at the local as well as global levels, including diplomatic tensions, wars, refugee crises, ecological crises, urban crises, casual cultural and purposeful misogyny and racism. Historical Materialism Ankara invites contributions that enrich radical critical understandings of the present conjunctures. Papers that analysing the problems and developing coherent and effective responses are also welcome. Papers are especially encouraged on the following themes: ? Authoritarianisms old and new, and the lessons from history ? Changing conceptions of national security and democratic openness ? Recent/Ongoing changes in the state and global legal/political apparatuses and state-class relations ? Land politics and new authoritarianisms ? The political economy of new authoritarianism ? Marxist political theory and the genealogy of authoritarianism ? New fascisms: ideology, politics and impact ? Populism, theirs and ours? ? Trump and the state of American Imperialism ? The legacy of the states of emergency/exception: from France to Hong Kong In addition to these themes, HM Ankara also welcomes panel and paper proposals that advance Marxist and left radical thought and politics. This includes: ? Political economy, value theory and Capital ? Feminist, social reproduction, queer, crip and racial critiques ? The analysis of states: histories, ideologies and politics ? Culture, literature and the arts The conference will also include the following streams (see the links for full details): ? Sexuality and Political Economy Stream ? Authoritarianism, the Right and Contemporary Queer Politics ? Marxism and Islam Stream ? Marxism and the Political Economy of Islam ? Latin America Stream ? Comparing Authoritarianisms: Latin America and elsewhere ? Global Eastern Europe Stream ? Authoritarianism and Anti-Fascist Strategies, Past and Present ? Marxism and Ecology Stream ? Dimensions of the Ecological Crisis and Resistance Strategies ? Marxist Politics and Strategy Stream ? Looking for a New Strategy in Weary Times This conference is organised under the aegis of Historical Materialism: Research in Critical Marxist Theory (http://www.historicalmaterialism.org/), which supports a journal (http://www.historicalmaterialism.org/journal) a book series (https://brill.com/view/serial/HM) and Marxist conferences across the globe. PANEL/PAPER ABSTRACT SUBMISSION DEADLINE: FRIDAY 31TH JANUARY -- Ali Yal??n G?ymen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200120/7d11c4e9/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: HM Ankara Call.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 215497 bytes Desc: HM Ankara Call.pdf Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200120/7d11c4e9/attachment.pdf From goymenyalcin@gmail.com Sun Jan 19 22:56:20 2020 From: goymenyalcin@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFsw6fEsW4gZ8O2eW1lbg==?=) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 09:56:20 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Historical Materialism Conference Ankara - Call for Papers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you so much! Goncu, Artin , 20 Oca 2020 Pzt, 09:53 tarihinde ?unu yazd?: > Forwarding.. Regards, ag > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > Professor, Emeritus > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > www.artingoncu.com/ > > > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *yal?in g?ymen > *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 12:24 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Historical Materialism Conference Ankara - Call for > Papers > > > > Dear All, > > > > We are exited to share our CfP with you. I hope you will find time to > contribute. > > > > Here is the call: > > > > *Historical Materialism Ankara* > *The Rise of New Authoritarianisms and the* > > > > > * Agenda for Resistance April 10th ? 12th 2020 Middle East Technical > University (METU) Faculty of Economics and Administrative Sciences **PANEL/PAPER > ABSTRACT SUBMISSION DEADLINE: FRIDAY 31TH* > > * JANUARY **A **Historical Materialism: Research in Critical Marxist > Theory **Conference* > > > > > > > * In Association with Praksis Journal Turkish Social Sciences Association > Sosyal Ara?t?rmalar Vakf? (Social Research Foundation), SAV M?lkiyeliler > Birli?i and Political Science and Public Administration Department at METU > Conference Fee*:* > > *Global North * > > *Global South* > > > > *Full Time* > * Academics* > > 70$ > > 50$ > > *Low-waged * > > 25$ > > 20$ > > > > *Unwaged * > > 10$ > > 5$ > > **Payment Method and accomodation suggestions will be announced in coming > dates.* > The rise of far right authoritarian regimes, nationalist and populist > political parties and > movements, and neo-conservative ideologies and politics across the globe, > present a new > challenge to states and to the global order. For those on the left and the > center-right embracing > neo-liberalism, the new challenges of autocratic leaders and > fundamentalist radicalisms require > analyses and responses. The popularity of those right movements, and their > political success in > both democratic politics and their political success in securing power > within democratic politics > has jeopardized the main tenets of liberal democracy. Increasingly, > authoritarian and populist > political strategies have frustrated democratic opposition movements and > challenged political > resistance. The left needs to understand the rise of the far right > parties, examining their > social/class basis as well as their historical and geographical context. > Equally, the left needs to > examine the effectiveness of its resistance and responses to the outrage > of the right. > The rise of authoritarianisms has had severe implications at the local as > well as global levels, > including diplomatic tensions, wars, refugee crises, ecological crises, > urban crises, casual > cultural and purposeful misogyny and racism. > Historical Materialism Ankara invites contributions that enrich radical > critical understandings > of the present conjunctures. Papers that analysing the problems and > developing coherent and > effective responses are also welcome. Papers are especially encouraged on > the following > themes: > ? Authoritarianisms old and new, and the lessons from history > ? Changing conceptions of national security and democratic openness > ? Recent/Ongoing changes in the state and global legal/political > apparatuses and state-class > relations > ? Land politics and new authoritarianisms > ? The political economy of new authoritarianism > ? Marxist political theory and the genealogy of authoritarianism > ? New fascisms: ideology, politics and impact > ? Populism, theirs and ours? > ? Trump and the state of American Imperialism > ? The legacy of the states of emergency/exception: from France to Hong > Kong > In addition to these themes, HM Ankara also welcomes panel and paper > proposals that advance > Marxist and left radical thought and politics. This includes: > ? Political economy, value theory and Capital > ? Feminist, social reproduction, queer, crip and racial critiques > ? The analysis of states: histories, ideologies and politics > ? Culture, literature and the arts > The conference will also include the following *streams *(see the links for > full details): > ? *Sexuality and Political Economy Stream *? *Authoritarianism, the Right > and* > > * Contemporary Queer Politics *? *Marxism and Islam Stream *? *Marxism > and the Political Economy of Islam* > ? *Latin America Stream *? *Comparing Authoritarianisms: Latin America > and elsewhere* > ? *Global Eastern Europe Stream ? Authoritarianism and Anti-Fascist > Strategies, Past and* > > * Present *? *Marxism and Ecology Stream *? *Dimensions of the Ecological > Crisis and Resistance* > > * Strategies *? *Marxist Politics and Strategy Stream *? *Looking for a > New Strategy in Weary Times* > *This conference is organised under the aegis of Historical Materialism: > Research in* > * Critical Marxist Theory (**http://www.historicalmaterialism.org/ > **), which supports a journal* > * (**http://www.historicalmaterialism.org/journal > **) a book series* > * (**https://brill.com/view/serial/HM **) > and Marxist conferences across the globe.* > *PANEL/PAPER ABSTRACT SUBMISSION DEADLINE: FRIDAY 31TH JANUARY* > > > > -- > > Ali Yal??n G?ymen > -- Ali Yal??n G?ymen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200120/611080e0/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Jan 20 09:24:22 2020 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 17:24:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> Message-ID: Martin, I have been thinking about this since posted. I think it is close to Vygotsky?s critique of Piaget. Why would people want to change when change is difficult and uncomfortable. You suggest that individuals might achieve this higher mental functions (do higher mental functions include being able to use cultural tools in problem solving or are you only limiting to the ability to use thinking about these tools to control the ecology?). You ask what if individuals develop this second, more advanced type of thinking but still decide to follow the state. It is obvious that at least some develop this advanced thinking capabilities but then use them for nefarious purposes (I do not feel well versed enough in Foucault to delve into the discussion of power). I am thinking at this point that the development of thinking is tied to our relationships to those around use. When we develop this type of thinking we do so both in historical context in concert with those around us. I am more and more becoming convinced that perezhivanie is central to Vygotsky thinking. I always stayed away from this idea because I thought the word was too complex. I was lucky enough to have a Russian linguist in a recent reading group and she suggested it is not a complex word, it is an ambiguous word. The way she explained it to me is a propelling emotion that is neither positive nor negative (or something like that), but really you need to understand it in the context of the way that it is used. I went on to read an actor?s psychology where Vygotsky?s account really explains the word for me (I may be wrong about the year, but if it was written in 1932 why did Vygotsky decided to return to this topic). I went and read some work on Stansilavsky, for whom perezhivanei also seems to be an important concept. From this reading I found out it was important to Tolstoy and the other Russian romantics. From what I get it is this feeling you get when your history merges with the historical moment and you feel a deep sense of connection with those around you as you action moves forward. One of the students in the reading group compared it to the theory of Flow, except with others. Anyone who has had a really good theatrical experience as an actor would recognize this almost immediately. You develop advanced thinking through this process (I am still trying to work this out) infused with perezhivania. You are part of a ?company of actors? moving forward. Vygotsky?s complaint in the socialist alteration of man is that only a few chosen get this experience and their ?company of actors? form an elite class that through their advanced thinking is able to claim they are special and control the actions of those around them. Conscious education does not necessarily lead to freedom as to erasing this elite class of thinker and the control they have. The learners are not learning as a separate class so their affiliations are not with a separate class. They don?t join that class because their perezhivania is achieved with a much larger and diverse company of actors. Is this the same thing as emancipation? I don?t know. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Martin Packer Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2020 3:32 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread here, but something that has puzzled me for some time is this. If someone becomes able to control their own behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can engage in self-control in order to do something completely new, something that transforms their own ecology and opens up new possibilities for themselves and other people. True. But equally, a child can engage in self-control in order to do precisely what their caregiver (or their government) wants and tells them to do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both examples of ?executive function?? Are they both occasions of the higher psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)? Puzzled... Martin On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum > wrote: Michael and Andy, If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I can help answer Michael's questions. As a long-time researcher of private (egocentric) speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally existing social system of speech communication) during child development as standing in sharp contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn biological system. But more pertinent to your discussion, by placing the source of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather than the biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary function of signs as a social means for controlling the consciousness of others. What happens during the development of private speech is that this artificially created means of social control of others passes to the child as part of the process of acquiring the system of speech communication. As a derivative of the primary function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's means of controlling his or her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's own consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh? Sorry to intervene! Carry on. Cheers, Peter On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.? These days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of contextualism in a different light. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? (?Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a digression, sorry! Alfredo From: on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Hi Alfredo and Andy, I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Andy, all, Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? Alfredo From: > on behalf of Andy Blunden > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology." Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM To: mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? Mike, take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase. JusSi ---------------- Jussi Silvonen Dosentti It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto PL 111 (Metria) 80101 Joensuu ------------------ https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta L?hetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example, Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020? And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! mike On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying Andy. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? This is what I was looking for: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word ? psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour." Thanks all. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource. Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection. Vygotsky said no. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole > wrote: Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? Mike On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: Andy-- That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i in Mind Culture and Activity https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 Some free e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection. Andy -- ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -- Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. Director, Office of Institutional Research Fordham University Thebaud Hall-202 Bronx, NY 10458 Phone: (718) 817-2243 Fax: (718) 817-3817 email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200120/e52dca37/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Jan 20 10:54:48 2020 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 11:54:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? In-Reply-To: References: <660492e9-2b76-acdf-0cd1-d155653d6176@marxists.org> <8842410e-fbb8-7cb8-a20e-adec34278fed@marxists.org> <8AA758D7-D38C-4396-A298-7335DA45D881@uio.no> <648b284f-b9e6-4537-3891-2ab1004ef86f@marxists.org> <85C18AF4-9B98-452D-95B3-9AFA3A85A118@cantab.net> Message-ID: This reminds me of durkheims ?collective effervescence? (I?ve always seen Durkheim and vygotsky as kindred spirits). Am I wrong to make that connection? (Also, this reminds me of Volosinovs behavioral ideology vs revolutionary ideology, although I?d be very curious to hear what the original Russian words were for those since these English terms don?t quite seem to get at what V describes). Greg On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:28 AM Glassman, Michael wrote: > Martin, > > > > I have been thinking about this since posted. I think it is close to > Vygotsky?s critique of Piaget. Why would people want to change when change > is difficult and uncomfortable. You suggest that individuals might achieve > this higher mental functions (do higher mental functions include being able > to use cultural tools in problem solving or are you only limiting to the > ability to use thinking about these tools to control the ecology?). You ask > what if individuals develop this second, more advanced type of thinking but > still decide to follow the state. It is obvious that at least some develop > this advanced thinking capabilities but then use them for nefarious > purposes (I do not feel well versed enough in Foucault to delve into the > discussion of power). I am thinking at this point that the development of > thinking is tied to our relationships to those around use. When we develop > this type of thinking we do so both in historical context in concert with > those around us. I am more and more becoming convinced that perezhivanie is > central to Vygotsky thinking. I always stayed away from this idea because I > thought the word was too complex. I was lucky enough to have a Russian > linguist in a recent reading group and she suggested it is not a complex > word, it is an ambiguous word. The way she explained it to me is a > propelling emotion that is neither positive nor negative (or something like > that), but really you need to understand it in the context of the way that > it is used. I went on to read an actor?s psychology where Vygotsky?s > account really explains the word for me (I may be wrong about the year, but > if it was written in 1932 why did Vygotsky decided to return to this > topic). I went and read some work on Stansilavsky, for whom perezhivanei > also seems to be an important concept. From this reading I found out it was > important to Tolstoy and the other Russian romantics. > > > > From what I get it is this feeling you get when your history merges with > the historical moment and you feel a deep sense of connection with those > around you as you action moves forward. One of the students in the reading > group compared it to the theory of Flow, except with others. Anyone who has > had a really good theatrical experience as an actor would recognize this > almost immediately. You develop advanced thinking through this process (I > am still trying to work this out) infused with perezhivania. You are part > of a ?company of actors? moving forward. Vygotsky?s complaint in the > socialist alteration of man is that only a few chosen get this experience > and their ?company of actors? form an elite class that through their > advanced thinking is able to claim they are special and control the actions > of those around them. Conscious education does not necessarily lead to > freedom as to erasing this elite class of thinker and the control they > have. The learners are not learning as a separate class so their > affiliations are not with a separate class. They don?t join that class > because their perezhivania is achieved with a much larger and diverse > company of actors. Is this the same thing as emancipation? I don?t know. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Martin Packer > *Sent:* Saturday, January 18, 2020 3:32 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread here, but something > that has puzzled me for some time is this. If someone becomes able to > control their own behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can > engage in self-control in order to do something completely new, something > that transforms their own ecology and opens up new possibilities for > themselves and other people. True. But equally, a child can engage in > self-control in order to do precisely what their caregiver (or their > government) wants and tells them to do. Are these both emancipatory? Are > these both examples of ?executive function?? Are they both occasions of the > higher psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)? > > > > Puzzled... > > > > Martin > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum > wrote: > > > > Michael and Andy, > > > > If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I can help answer > Michael's questions. As a long-time researcher of private (egocentric) > speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement inward > of signs (or, more precisely, the externally existing social system of > speech communication) during child development as standing in sharp > contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn > biological system. But more pertinent to your discussion, by placing the > source of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather than the > biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary function of signs as > a social means for controlling the consciousness of others. What happens > during the development of private speech is that this artificially created > means of social control of others passes to the child as part of the > process of acquiring the system of speech communication. As a derivative of > the primary function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's means of > controlling his or her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's own > consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh? > > > > Sorry to intervene! Carry on. > > > > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence > ?Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.? These > days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict > and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most > behaviorists) you can?t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that > internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he > emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to > control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you > can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a > consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of > contextualism in a different light. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism: > > ?Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental > branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and > control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, > nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with > which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The > behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, > recognizes no dividing line between man and brute? (?Psychology as the > Behaviorist Views it?, 1913) > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a > science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question > ?what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and > conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?? If you raise the same > question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, > and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light. > > > > In terms of Vygotsky?s positions, I think you render a valid reading. > > > > Although I think that today?s school curricula in most countries are quite > explicit on the importance of the ?adaptable thinking skills? that you > refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is > still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the > so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms > (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, > digital skills?). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we > are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our > understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century > are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to > connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical > organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don?t > remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of > civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate > prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only > variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas > emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas > emissions?). I think events today are re-writing the way ?progressing > towards a modern world? made concious thinking more relevant? But this is a > digression, sorry! > > > > Alfredo > > *From: * > on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" > > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Hi Alfredo and Andy, > > > > I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism. > Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I > think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the > head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from > Thorndike to Mead. But I don?t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog > in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky > at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those > outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to > control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible > ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the > ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can > actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before > applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is > really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited > situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a > satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes > more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, > controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous > ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social > interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist > alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only > a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I > am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) > those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this > today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer > broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills > such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate > their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of > what they do in a complex society. I don?t think that is what Vygotsky was > writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants > to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation > on Hamlet. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil > *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Andy, all, > > > > Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an > emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory > courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky?s attempts as > aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend > in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of > ?control? that also characterized, for example, Dewey?s ideas on inquiry. > ?The artificial control of behavior? could for example be as well > formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which > precisely aims to gain ?control? over conditions for development; only that > ?control? might be a quite misleading way of posing it? > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Andy Blunden < > andyb@marxists.org> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52 > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a > scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the > mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes > Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant. > > Now there *is *an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for > example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such > is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly > interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to > control *their own* mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe > Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the > business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there. > > Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in > contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that > genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is > usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense > "technic" rather than "epistemology." > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > I don?t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing > Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. > Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical > psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One > hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to > determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he > was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a > psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to > explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up > merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be > detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the > types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, > something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my > reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that > Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision > of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. > Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this > moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, > finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not > falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he > did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the > intelligence testers who combined ?empirical? and practical psychology for > ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo?s idea of > epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here). > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Jussi Silvonen > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM > *To:* mike cole ; eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > Mike, > > > > take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org > ), > you can find PDF files of most of M?nsterberg's books there. It is obvious, > that M?sterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's > instrumental phase. > > > > JusSi > > ---------------- > Jussi Silvonen > Dosentti > It?-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus > Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto > PL 111 (Metria) > 80101 Joensuu > ------------------ > https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home > > https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen > > http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/ > > ------------------------------ > > *L?hett?j?:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> k?ytt?j?n mike cole > puolesta > *L?hetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56 > *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem > of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on > "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. > For example, > > > > Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal > [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. > Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical > sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354) > > > > It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and > LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, > say, 2020? > > > > And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out! > > mike > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > I don?t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his > discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg?s > last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was > falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that?s what you are saying > Andy. > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology? > > > > This is what I was looking for: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207 > > > It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of > psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of > practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such > a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but *in > one word ? psychotechnics*, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to > the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of > behaviour." > > Thanks all. > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote: > > But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource > management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. > It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the > Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on > it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that > people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very > scarce resource. > > > > Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a > psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is > written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic > conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, > to aid in psychotechnic selection. > > > > Vygotsky said no. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775* > > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works > Volume One: Foundations of Pedology" > > > > https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270 > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole wrote: > > Might you be looking for ?psychotechnics? Andy? > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > > Andy-- > > > > That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me. > > > > Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of > Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's > short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had > nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human > Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical > illusions in "uneducated" peoples > > > > . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could > ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in > Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound > turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology > opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain? > > > > Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to > itself can do much." Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1, > Aphorism 2. > > > David Kellogg > > Sangmyung University > > > > New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and > Word" i > > in *Mind Culture and Activity* > > *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775* > > > Some free e-prints available at: > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775 > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > > There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as > opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this > observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think > Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in > this connection. > > Andy > > > > -- > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein > lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > > > > -- > > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein > lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison > > --------------------------------------------------- > > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > > lchc.ucsd.edu > . > For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu > > . > > > > > > > > > -- > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > Director, > > Office of Institutional Research > > > Fordham University > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200120/6c6b1a85/attachment-0001.html From yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi Tue Jan 21 04:01:07 2020 From: yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi (=?utf-8?B?RW5nZXN0csO2bSwgWXJqw7YgSCBN?=) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:01:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Summer school on activity theory, June 9-12, 2020 Message-ID: <9C508D81-F746-49A0-AA87-9D3C133767FF@helsinki.fi> Dear colleagues and friends, please find attached an announcement of a summer school on activity theory, to take place on June 9 to 12, 2020, in Leeds, UK. The instructors include David Allen, Yrj? Engestr?m, Stan Karanasios, Annalisa Sannino, and Clay Spinuzzi. A similar school was organised last year in Trolflh?ttan, Sweden, and it was very useful and great fun for both the participants and the instructors. Hope to see you there? With best regards, Yrj? Engestr?m -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Event flyer (Activity Theory Summer School) Final.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 270000 bytes Desc: Event flyer (Activity Theory Summer School) Final.docx Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200121/13417f69/attachment.bin From ajrajala@gmail.com Tue Jan 21 04:52:22 2020 From: ajrajala@gmail.com (Antti Rajala) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:52:22 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] 2nd Call for Papers - EARLI SIG 10/21/25 Conference: Process-oriented research on learning in contemporary society Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Please find attached a call for proposals for a CHAT friendly conference on July 6-10, 2020, in Groningen, the Netherlands. It is organized by three special interest groups of European Association of Research on Learning and Instruction (EARLI). The three sigs are Educational Theory (SIG 25), Social interaction in learning and interaction (SIG 10) and Learning and Teaching in Culturally Diverse Settings (SIG 21). If you find this interesting, please submit your short proposals by February 15. With best wishes, Antti Rajala, Coordinator of SIG 25 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200121/45abf89f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2ND CALL FOR PAPERS EARLI SIG 10 21 25.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 132698 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200121/45abf89f/attachment.pdf From ajrajala@gmail.com Tue Jan 21 05:06:34 2020 From: ajrajala@gmail.com (Antti Rajala) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 15:06:34 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] CORRECTION: 2nd Call for Papers - EARLI SIG 10/21/25 Conference: Process-oriented research on learning in contemporary society In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My apologies, There was a mistake in the below message (the call for proposals was correct). The conference will be held on July 1-3, 2020. Best wishes, Antti On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:52, Antti Rajala wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Please find attached a call for proposals for a CHAT friendly conference > on July 6-10, 2020, in Groningen, the Netherlands. It is organized by three > special interest groups of European Association of Research on Learning and > Instruction (EARLI). The three sigs are Educational Theory (SIG 25), Social > interaction in learning and interaction (SIG 10) and Learning and Teaching > in Culturally Diverse Settings (SIG 21). > > If you find this interesting, please submit your short proposals > by February 15. > > With best wishes, Antti Rajala, Coordinator of SIG 25 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200121/29819006/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Tue Jan 21 05:35:06 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 13:35:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CORRECTION: 2nd Call for Papers - EARLI SIG 10/21/25 Conference: Process-oriented research on learning in contemporary society In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B76BF1E-AAC6-43FC-8EC3-DCD824203969@uio.no> Hi Antti, thanks for sharing. You might also want to submit to Cultural Praxis? Best, Alfredo From: on behalf of Antti Rajala Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Tuesday, 21 January 2020 at 14:12 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] CORRECTION: 2nd Call for Papers - EARLI SIG 10/21/25 Conference: Process-oriented research on learning in contemporary society My apologies, There was a mistake in the below message (the call for proposals was correct). The conference will be held on July 1-3, 2020. Best wishes, Antti On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:52, Antti Rajala > wrote: Dear colleagues, Please find attached a call for proposals for a CHAT friendly conference on July 6-10, 2020, in Groningen, the Netherlands. It is organized by three special interest groups of European Association of Research on Learning and Instruction (EARLI). The three sigs are Educational Theory (SIG 25), Social interaction in learning and interaction (SIG 10) and Learning and Teaching in Culturally Diverse Settings (SIG 21). If you find this interesting, please submit your short proposals by February 15. With best wishes, Antti Rajala, Coordinator of SIG 25 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200121/02a71ab5/attachment.html From ajrajala@gmail.com Tue Jan 21 05:49:01 2020 From: ajrajala@gmail.com (Antti Rajala) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 15:49:01 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CORRECTION: 2nd Call for Papers - EARLI SIG 10/21/25 Conference: Process-oriented research on learning in contemporary society In-Reply-To: <4B76BF1E-AAC6-43FC-8EC3-DCD824203969@uio.no> References: <4B76BF1E-AAC6-43FC-8EC3-DCD824203969@uio.no> Message-ID: Sure, good idea! Thanks Alfredo! Antti On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 15:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Hi Antti, > > > > thanks for sharing. You might also want to submit to Cultural Praxis? > > > > Best, > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Antti Rajala < > ajrajala@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Tuesday, 21 January 2020 at 14:12 > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] CORRECTION: 2nd Call for Papers - EARLI SIG 10/21/25 > Conference: Process-oriented research on learning in contemporary society > > > > My apologies, > > > > There was a mistake in the below message (the call for proposals was > correct). The conference will be held on July 1-3, 2020. > > > > Best wishes, Antti > > > > On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:52, Antti Rajala wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > > > Please find attached a call for proposals for a CHAT friendly conference > on July 6-10, 2020, in Groningen, the Netherlands. It is organized by three > special interest groups of European Association of Research on Learning and > Instruction (EARLI). The three sigs are Educational Theory (SIG 25), Social > interaction in learning and interaction (SIG 10) and Learning and Teaching > in Culturally Diverse Settings (SIG 21). > > > > If you find this interesting, please submit your short proposals > by February 15. > > > > With best wishes, Antti Rajala, Coordinator of SIG 25 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200121/a9f0ed1d/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jan 23 10:02:43 2020 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 10:02:43 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] CHAT-SIG AERA Message-ID: Xmcaers who are members of AERA. There is an interesting group of people who have volunteered to be on the governing board of the chat sig. The sig has sagged, so to speak, in recent years. A number of people, noticing this trend, have stepped to re-generate the highly productive activities of prior years. Check it out. mike -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200123/e9350783/attachment.html From feine@duq.edu Thu Jan 23 14:58:21 2020 From: feine@duq.edu (Dr. Elizabeth Fein) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 22:58:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] DEADLINE JANUARY 31st: Society for Qualitative Inquiry in Psychology Annual Conference, Call for Proposals Message-ID: ** REMINDER: DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSION IS JANUARY 31ST ** Dear Colleagues, Attached, please find the Call for Proposals for the 7th Annual Conference of the Society for Qualitative Inquiry in Psychology, to be held at Lesley University in Cambridge, MA on June 7th ? 9th, 2020. SQIP is a section of Division 5 (Quantitative and Qualitative Methods) of the American Psychological Association and as such our mission is to foster the work of researchers who use or teach qualitative research methods. Submissions from multidisciplinary, international, and student scholars are welcomed. We invite proposals for paper and poster presentations, as well as symposia and conversation hours. Please note that there will also be a choice of optional pre-convention workshops on the afternoon of June 7th. Additional details can be found on the Call for Proposals. There will be low-cost on-campus housing available on campus for those who would like it. Do not hesitate to contact us at info@sqip.org if you have any questions about the organization or the conference. Information about the conference, registration, etc. is also located at the website http://sqip.org/sqip-2020-annual-conference/ If you are receiving this email through a mailing list that does not allow attachments, you can find the CFP here as well. We hope to see you in Cambridge in June! Thank you for your time and consideration. Sincerely, Elizabeth Fein, SQIP Program Committee Chair Peiwei Li, SQIP Host Committee Chair Jeanne Marecek, SQIP President -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200123/9184e4d1/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Call for SQIP proposals 2020 final.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 219869 bytes Desc: Call for SQIP proposals 2020 final.pdf Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200123/9184e4d1/attachment.pdf From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Thu Jan 23 19:20:33 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 22:20:33 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] some videos for a general audience Message-ID: Good evening, I'd like to share a small project I've been working on recently, in an attempt to better understand Vygotsky's ideas and implications. Short clips are here, averaging about 2 minutes apiece: http://tiny.cc/dra4iz Longer ones are here, and I am very grateful to Andy, Nikolai, and Peter for their generosity: http://tiny.cc/bpa4iz Thank you, and have a great day. Anthony Barra -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200123/48dcbcbd/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jan 23 20:27:39 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 15:27:39 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: some videos for a general audience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I really like what you've done to make those two-minute quickies, Anthony. I'd be up for some more 2-minute Q&As if you are. And I've got? better internet connection these days, too. Send me a list of topics/problems/questions and I'll pick something. The fact is: people don't watch hour-long youtube videos. Sadly. You have the solution. :) andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/01/2020 2:20 pm, Anthony Barra wrote: > Good evening, > > I'd like to share a small project I've been working on > recently, in an attempt to better understand Vygotsky's > ideas and implications. > > Short clips are here, averaging about 2 minutes apiece: > http://tiny.cc/dra4iz > > Longer ones are here, and I am very grateful to Andy, > Nikolai, and Peter for their generosity: > http://tiny.cc/bpa4iz > > Thank you, and have a great day. > > Anthony Barra -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200124/6171379a/attachment.html From john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au Thu Jan 23 21:07:53 2020 From: john.crippsclark@deakin.edu.au (John Cripps Clark) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 05:07:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: some videos for a general audience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30B27C8E-EA09-4AD9-AD3F-D0AE3C53794C@deakin.edu.au> Andy That is not true (and not sad), I and many members of the reading group have spoken fondly of spending hours watching your lectures. It is more that we need a variety of communication for different audiences. These short videos are fantastic for our students and introducing newcomers but a variety of longer formats are necessary for deeper engagement with ideas. John Cripps Clark From: on behalf of Andy Blunden Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Friday, 24 January 2020 at 3:32 pm To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: some videos for a general audience I really like what you've done to make those two-minute quickies, Anthony. I'd be up for some more 2-minute Q&As if you are. And I've got better internet connection these days, too. Send me a list of topics/problems/questions and I'll pick something. The fact is: people don't watch hour-long youtube videos. Sadly. You have the solution. :) andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/01/2020 2:20 pm, Anthony Barra wrote: Good evening, I'd like to share a small project I've been working on recently, in an attempt to better understand Vygotsky's ideas and implications. Short clips are here, averaging about 2 minutes apiece: http://tiny.cc/dra4iz Longer ones are here, and I am very grateful to Andy, Nikolai, and Peter for their generosity: http://tiny.cc/bpa4iz Thank you, and have a great day. Anthony Barra Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200124/f94e5f66/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jan 23 22:26:05 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 17:26:05 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: some videos for a general audience In-Reply-To: <30B27C8E-EA09-4AD9-AD3F-D0AE3C53794C@deakin.edu.au> References: <30B27C8E-EA09-4AD9-AD3F-D0AE3C53794C@deakin.edu.au> Message-ID: <009af08d-40e8-212e-ff37-e4f0f6c59fc4@marxists.org> Oh what a pleasant surprise! :) Thanks for that, John. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 24/01/2020 4:07 pm, John Cripps Clark wrote: > > Andy > > That is not true (and not sad), I and many members of the > reading group have spoken fondly of spending hours > watching your lectures. > > It is more that we need a variety of communication for > different audiences. > > These short videos are fantastic for our students and > introducing newcomers but a variety of longer formats are > necessary for deeper engagement with ideas. > > John Cripps Clark > > *From: * on behalf of > Andy Blunden > *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *Date: *Friday, 24 January 2020 at 3:32 pm > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: some videos for a general audience > > I really like what you've done to make those two-minute > quickies, Anthony. > > I'd be up for some more 2-minute Q&As if you are. And I've > got? better internet connection these days, too. > > Send me a list of topics/problems/questions and I'll pick > something. > > The fact is: people don't watch hour-long youtube videos. > Sadly. You have the solution. :) > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > > Home Page > > > On 24/01/2020 2:20 pm, Anthony Barra wrote: > > Good evening, > > I'd like to share a small project I've been working on > recently, in an attempt to better understand > Vygotsky's ideas and implications. > > Short clips are here, averaging about 2 minutes > apiece: http://tiny.cc/dra4iz > > Longer ones are here, and I am very grateful to Andy, > Nikolai, and Peter for their generosity: > http://tiny.cc/bpa4iz > > Thank you, and have a great day. > > Anthony Barra > > /* > Important Notice:* The contents of this email are intended > solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any > unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents > is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email > in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately > and advise the sender by return email or telephone. > > Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any > attachments are error or virus free./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200124/a2681fa0/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Fri Jan 24 03:46:46 2020 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:46:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: some videos for a general audience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A55880E-44D8-4FE8-BD89-B1A40D6E7F55@uio.no> This is great, Anthony. Thanks so much for sharing. Is it OK if we embed the links to the repositories in other relevant websites such as CulturalPraxis, www.re-generatingchat.com and the likes? Alfredo From: on behalf of Anthony Barra Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Friday, 24 January 2020 at 04:24 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] some videos for a general audience Good evening, I'd like to share a small project I've been working on recently, in an attempt to better understand Vygotsky's ideas and implications. Short clips are here, averaging about 2 minutes apiece: http://tiny.cc/dra4iz Longer ones are here, and I am very grateful to Andy, Nikolai, and Peter for their generosity: http://tiny.cc/bpa4iz Thank you, and have a great day. Anthony Barra -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200124/196336b7/attachment.html From anthonymbarra@gmail.com Fri Jan 24 14:29:28 2020 From: anthonymbarra@gmail.com (Anthony Barra) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 17:29:28 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: some videos for a general audience In-Reply-To: <9A55880E-44D8-4FE8-BD89-B1A40D6E7F55@uio.no> References: <9A55880E-44D8-4FE8-BD89-B1A40D6E7F55@uio.no> Message-ID: Thank you Andy, John, and Alfredo for your replies. Andy: if I can think of something, I'll be in touch. Alfredo: I am not too familiar with these websites, but if you find any of the videos (short or long) to be worth sharing, please feel free. I myself have little of interest to offer, but my interviewees are knowledgeable, accomplished (as you all know), and interesting -- and I should add, they have been extremely kind and gracious to me. When I read *Thinking and Speech* for the first time, Nikolai's videos and some others posted by Andy were extremely helpful, especially since I was (and am) untrained in psychology, philosophy, and history. If any videos from my channel can be useful in any way, that would be gratifying. Thanks again ~ Anthony On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > This is great, Anthony. Thanks so much for sharing. Is it OK if we embed > the links to the repositories in other relevant websites such as > CulturalPraxis, www.re-generatingchat.com and the likes? > > > > Alfredo > > > > *From: * on behalf of Anthony Barra < > anthonymbarra@gmail.com> > *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Friday, 24 January 2020 at 04:24 > *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] some videos for a general audience > > > > Good evening, > > > > I'd like to share a small project I've been working on recently, in an > attempt to better understand Vygotsky's ideas and implications. > > > > Short clips are here, averaging about 2 minutes apiece: > http://tiny.cc/dra4iz > > > > Longer ones are here, and I am very grateful to Andy, Nikolai, and Peter > for their generosity: http://tiny.cc/bpa4iz > > > > Thank you, and have a great day. > > > > Anthony Barra > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200124/b18b030e/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jan 30 02:50:18 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 21:50:18 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] frame theory Message-ID: Has anyone written on Frame Theory from a CHAT point of view? andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200130/0b66e91e/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jan 30 03:16:09 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 11:16:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: frame theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What is Frame Theory? I have a fairly large synthesis on a "perspective-based theory of cognition". Huw On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 at 10:52, Andy Blunden wrote: > Has anyone written on Frame Theory from a CHAT point of view? > > andy > -- > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200130/4dd3da18/attachment.html From ajrajala@gmail.com Thu Jan 30 11:35:25 2020 From: ajrajala@gmail.com (Antti Rajala) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 21:35:25 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: frame theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andy, in Gothenburg they have used it together with Vygotskian theory in school contexts. Check the work of Annika Lantz-Andersson, e.g., this one: Lantz-Andersson, A., Linderoth, J., & S?lj?, R. (2009). What?s the problem? Meaning making and learning to do mathematical word problems in the context of digital tools. *Instructional Science*, *37*(4), 325-343. Maybe the context is different? Also, Jim Greeno uses similar ideas without reference to Goffman. Best, Antti On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 at 13:19, Huw Lloyd wrote: > What is Frame Theory? I have a fairly large synthesis on a > "perspective-based theory of cognition". > > Huw > > On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 at 10:52, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Has anyone written on Frame Theory from a CHAT point of view? >> >> andy >> -- >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200130/f2894e39/attachment.html From ewall@umich.edu Thu Jan 30 17:34:36 2020 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 19:34:36 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: frame theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andy Goffman is thinking a bit about dramaturgy in his book so perhaps the folks that think about drama and visit this list have some ideas. There is a paper of Kris D. Gutierrez that ties a bunch of things together and mentions Vygotsky and which has a reference to Frame Theory (the book) so perhaps she makes some connections (although it is hard to tell). Ed Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. > On Jan 30, 2020, at 4:50 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Has anyone written on Frame Theory from a CHAT point of view? > > andy > -- > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page From andyb@marxists.org Thu Jan 30 18:08:30 2020 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:08:30 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: frame theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4473cb44-082b-03fd-a209-be3d4332d86e@marxists.org> Thanks to all. I will try to contact Anika and Kris for a PDF of their work on this. Greg and Lloyd, I am looking specifically for someone who has taken the idea of "framing" into a CHAT frame, I am not particularly interested in the presumably vast range of possible genealogies and variants of the idea of framing. I am particularly interested in "framing" as a rhetorical and movement-mobilising device, that is to say, as an action which is part of a project, like when our former Prime Minister John Howard said "We will decide who comes into this country" reframing the arrival of refugees on on Australian shores as a kind of invasion, and the Opposition's failed attempt to reframe the stopping of boats as a diplomatic insult to Indonesia. etc. and how social movements frame all social problems around the concept which provides them with their identity. I can see how teachers would use framing to introduce children to concepts which they might otherwise find irrelevant to their lives. I'd like to know who has expressed this idea in Activity Theoretical terms, in particular. Thanks all again for your assistance. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 31/01/2020 12:34 pm, Edward Wall wrote: > Andy > > Goffman is thinking a bit about dramaturgy in his book so perhaps the folks that think about drama and visit this list have some ideas. There is a paper of Kris D. Gutierrez that ties a bunch of things together and mentions Vygotsky and which has a reference to Frame Theory (the book) so perhaps she makes some connections (although it is hard to tell). > > Ed > > Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. > >> On Jan 30, 2020, at 4:50 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Has anyone written on Frame Theory from a CHAT point of view? >> >> andy >> -- >> Andy Blunden >> Hegel for Social Movements >> Home Page > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200131/5cabfc8b/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Jan 31 06:34:09 2020 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:34:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: frame theory In-Reply-To: <4473cb44-082b-03fd-a209-be3d4332d86e@marxists.org> References: <4473cb44-082b-03fd-a209-be3d4332d86e@marxists.org> Message-ID: Well, in terms of perspectives, the political example can be studied in terms of a "conversation" between two (or more) perspectives. However, rather than arriving at a greater synthesis, the short-term political intention appears to be a deliberate obtuseness. In my paper I am more interested in the dialectical synthesis, however asymmetric conversations have their part in terms of a zpd etc, and resistance to learning is a parallel to your scenario. I suppose that an area that I focus on and which might be overlooked by the reframing/rhetoric focus is the cognitive richness and robustness in terms of ontological construal -- e.g. effective politics seems often to be about talking to the "lowest common denominator" whilst maintaining a higher-order unspoken conception -- a bit like some academics :). If anyone is interested in reviewing/processing this work (mostly all done, I think) as representing/meriting a PhD, please get in touch. It is a mixture of AT, cybernetics, constructivism, developmental psychology, computing etc. Best, Huw On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 at 02:10, Andy Blunden wrote: > Thanks to all. > > I will try to contact Anika and Kris for a PDF of their work on this. > > Greg and Lloyd, I am looking specifically for someone who has taken the > idea of "framing" into a CHAT frame, I am not particularly interested in > the presumably vast range of possible genealogies and variants of the idea > of framing. I am particularly interested in "framing" as a rhetorical and > movement-mobilising device, that is to say, as an action which is part of a > project, like when our former Prime Minister John Howard said "We will > decide who comes into this country" reframing the arrival of refugees on on > Australian shores as a kind of invasion, and the Opposition's failed > attempt to reframe the stopping of boats as a diplomatic insult to > Indonesia. etc. and how social movements frame all social problems around > the concept which provides them with their identity. I can see how teachers > would use framing to introduce children to concepts which they might > otherwise find irrelevant to their lives. I'd like to know who has > expressed this idea in Activity Theoretical terms, in particular. > > Thanks all again for your assistance. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > On 31/01/2020 12:34 pm, Edward Wall wrote: > > Andy > > Goffman is thinking a bit about dramaturgy in his book so perhaps the folks that think about drama and visit this list have some ideas. There is a paper of Kris D. Gutierrez that ties a bunch of things together and mentions Vygotsky and which has a reference to Frame Theory (the book) so perhaps she makes some connections (although it is hard to tell). > > Ed > > Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. > > > On Jan 30, 2020, at 4:50 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Has anyone written on Frame Theory from a CHAT point of view? > > andy > -- > Andy Blunden > Hegel for Social Movements > Home Page > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200131/13022ffc/attachment-0001.html