[Xmca-l] Re: Pain and suffering vs business as usual

Tue Dec 1 10:21:44 PST 2020

Hi Anna,

I am sorry that you do not feel free to speak directly to me, but there are allusions to my post ("Vygotsky simply") by mention in your email about freedom of speech and defense of democracy as defense of despotism that seemed to reference my post, so I feel you are speaking to me. If I have made an assumption, I apologize, but it is to say this informs my reply to you.

Please know that I do not disagree with you about many observations in your post. One thing that you are wrong about is that I am not defending despotism. I believe that the democratic process works. It is messy and can be painful, but it is far less painful that despotism.

I do find Anthony's patronizing emails annoying, even insulting, and I've had my share of conflict with Andy when I first began posting on the list. I feel that it is an initiation to this list to butt heads with Andy. Still I feel that Andy has contributed much to our community by way of his website procurements on Marxists.org. I myself have seen him grow as the tone of his posts have become more circumspect. But if he has done a person wrong, he is capable of taking the heat for it. I think that is something Helena has referenced in her own way.

But Andy isn't the only person on this list. I have also had many very meaningful conversations with others on this list, regular posters and not-so regular posters. I have had challenges and been offended, etc etc, etc.

The challenge with listservs is that they remove context and are asynchronous. It is impossible to capture tone. It seems many, to be safe, are inclined to err on the side of caution to consider a tone is mal-intended than not if it is not clear. That's not something that can be helped about the technology.

I have been dismissed regularly on this list, but I can't take it personally. At the same time. like Andy, my desire for knowledge is not made concrete with the walls of an academic institution or a professorship. So my small privilege is that I can speak more freely than someone seeking a PhD, a postdoc, a professorship, or funding, and so on, without fear of a passive aggressive attack on my academic career; I do not have an academic career to protect.

While in San Diego, I was invited by Mike to participate in LCHC seminars which I did for about a year. I wasn't treated that well there by some of the attendees. I had my share of humiliating moments. But then I started to understand that there is an aspect of academia which is difficult, that upon reflection I don't think can ever be expunged. When experienced thinkers are challenging ideas, which is a requirement when swimming the currents of academia, one must have a thick skin to brave the cold waters. But like jumping into a river there is a shock and then the body acclimates.

I do not say that academics is fair, because it isn't. There is collateral damage. People's feelings can be hurt, people's careers can be damaged. I get it. But I still attended LCHC. I kept going, because I wanted to learn what there was to learn, and I wanted to witness it first hand, until I couldn't anymore because of geographic realities.

That experience has kept me connected to the list and provides me an understanding of the dynamics that affords my accommodations that I have tried to share with the list in my post.

I will also share that I held a misguided fear of the aura of LCHC that actually impeded me. It was all in my head. Without getting into details, since this is a public forum, I will just say that I might have been able to go farther if not for that fear in my head. For those whose lives are shaped by FUD, I hope there is a way for you to do reality check in whatever way that might work for you, and I hope for you to have the courage to step forward and participate despite knawing FUD.

The naming of my experiences is not to dismiss the very real conflicts that venerable others experience on this list. I can only speak of my own experience, and I promise you I am not a privileged white male, nor could I ever see myself apologizing for insensitive acts on the list that derive from "white-male privilege."

Anyone who acts from entitlement has issues. Regardless, I am also not going to let their mere existence define me and who I want to be.

I will not marginalize myself. I accept myself.

What I am trying to offer to the mix here is a third way, to loosen up the space, to not make it so much speechifying of "us vs them". To be in the moment and allow for some oxygen. To be accommodating.

The rules of engagement in academia are never going to be "fair", and lots of people who don't or can't or won't play along will be left outside of it, I discovered that fact myself very, very personally. The reality is this happens everywhere in other areas of political engagement.

Does that mean I should not care about democracy? or other ideals that allow for individual and group freedoms to think for oneself? Does it mean that because I choose not to be bitter that I have somehow capitulated and sold out?

Or does it mean that because I acknowledge the reality that I am likely foolish to think there will be a magical day when an overturning of the culture in academia will somehow provide a protective cocoon to novices and experts who want and need them, where all challenges between cohorts will be softball pitches and teddy bear tea parties, that I am somehow *promoting* social injustice???

I sometimes wonder whether an aspect of our discussion has to do with expectations not meeting with reality, and the larger that gap between the two the more painful it can be. I mean, privileged white males can be pretty ruthless, even to each other. I'm not sure I would ever want to be one.

Still, I want to acknowledge the pain, because I know that it is there. I respect it's presnce.

The only thing I can do is sit with it and bear witness. Something does arise on its own. That's the nature of healing. It's about getting out of the way to let the healing take place. It's not about doing.

That's not a chastisement against you or anyone who is suffering, but to emphasize my appeal for empathy, to legitimize that there is a deep hurt among all people, even if the dynamics of pain are not shared.

Pain and suffering are highly democratic.  Contesting who's pain and suffering is legitimate is highly offensive and arrogant, and I'm fairly certain that I'm not doing that here.

I was told once by a teacher that arrogance is indication of a deep hurt. He said that arrogance functions like a blister by making the person insensitive and numb to others. It is a means of protection, of isolating deep unspeakable pain. I find this a meaningful metaphor to understand the dysfunction of arrogance and to not be taken in by it when I see it. That doesn't mean it is easy to deal with, but this insight helps me cope when it comes up in my life.

I hope this insight might help others on this list, and I offer it sincerely.

Kind regards,

Annalisa

P.S. I saw Dana's post come down the river as I was writing mine, and I love the idea of a University of Students. It reminded me of the Global Center for Advanced Studies (GCAS)  and I wondered if anyone had heard of that educational experiment, now 7 years old. See: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://gcas.ie/happy-birthday-gcas__;!!Mih3wA!VvG8bqbNsBDA77KelAZufxGXpCvphNE_ZKLX-qz0Mv5nCgWM066rNCqafAJeScX46inZ5A$ 

________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Stetsenko, Anna <AStetsenko@gc.cuny.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 9:32 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Pain and suffering vs business as usual

  [EXTERNAL]

Before we go back to business as usual, there is more to say on the recent crisis, which to me is not over. This is because I think we need to be “sensitive to that which is not over… We are up against history; walls. We need to support, stand with, and stand by, those students [and all who are marginalized] who are fighting to survive hostile institutions. It is our job.”

(this is from Sarah Ahmed, posted by Jacob Mac Williams on xmca in 2015, I will reference it several times, it’s a brilliant piece, google Against Students – The New Inquiry<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://thenewinquiry.com/against-students/__;!!Mih3wA!WAbdo5T8clZdbaSRiStryH25GERvxlFFvv7xm2PZaIowRAKm26u2lmlg1OXvKH2Q6_xIYA$>).

A short prelude – I attended an amazing meeting yesterday on Audre Lorde organized by the GC CUNY, Translating Audre Lorde Now /Traduciendo Audre Lorde Ahora. Scholars, educators, and students spoke about Lorde and centrally brought up the theme of pain and suffering in academia and beyond – for those who are marginalized due to their skin color, ethnicity, non-traditional gender identity…Perhaps there could be people who do not know or prefer not to know but this is directly relevant to xmca, where pain and suffering have been incurred and many experienced violence of racism, sexism, and discrimination. There have been interventions, and heart-felt notes from Mike, Antti, Alfredo (for example), yet they fall on deaf ears and many choose to remain oblivious to what is going on and to their own actions (!). We hear about this here on the list and even more in private emails – many are actually afraid to come up and share their experiences!
This is not a matter of just brining up grievances or of political correctness. This is a matter of well being, of being able to breath! “Caring for myself is not self-indulgence. It is self-preservation, and that is an act of political warfare" Audre Lord.
I think we have been speaking of the crisis in general, abstract terms. But history is always concrete – and why not rise from the abstract to the concrete (for those who like to couch things in terms of “academic debates’)? Many conveniently return to “freedom of speech” and “inclusion” mantra. But in 2020 it should be clear there is no going back to these in the midst of pain and suffering. Sarah Ahmed explained this:

"Interestingly one white male academic when asked about 'decolonizing the university' ..was reported to have said something like “this is education not democracy: we get to decide what we teach.” He helpfully reveals to us how the democracy often defended is an illusion: what is being defended as democracy is often despotism."

Here is to the concrete. Andy posted his reflections and there is not a hint of what has been going on for many years. Andy, your style has been stifling to people – your dominant posture, the flair of “knowing the answers” and lecturing others, your insistence on “objectivity” in science (read: canons of white male superiority only accessible to “Great Men”). The latter came through when Jacob MacWilliams responded to you, not just once! With great eloquence and also pain. And left after that, to a great loss to xmca, as did many others, in desperation. Hope someone will do a discourse analysis of epistemic violence on xmca… A claim to objective knowledge is an absolute demand for obedience (Mendez, Coddou, & Maturana). Exactly! And Kristie Dotson will be useful here indeed, thank you, Diane, for bringing this up.

There is more to add on epistemic violence…I will wait for other voices and then probably add, with more specific illustrations.
But important for now, if we hear voices telling us that there is racism and violence in messages they see on xmca, we have to act. Anthony, people are not feeling safe in your presence – this was expressed to you and I heard this from many people in private too – I am making this public now. As someone wrote – this is about “awful e-mail exchanges,” so that she “didn't feel like engaging in such a violent environment.”  What is it that you do not understand about this?

Anna Stetsenko, PhD

Professor

Ph.D. Programs in Psychology/Human Development and in Urban Education
The Graduate Center of The City University of New York
365 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10016

https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!VvG8bqbNsBDA77KelAZufxGXpCvphNE_ZKLX-qz0Mv5nCgWM066rNCqafAJeScWzHaTbwg$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://annastetsenko.ws.gc.cuny.edu/__;!!Mih3wA!WAbdo5T8clZdbaSRiStryH25GERvxlFFvv7xm2PZaIowRAKm26u2lmlg1OXvKH1Lf6KQHA$>

visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!VvG8bqbNsBDA77KelAZufxGXpCvphNE_ZKLX-qz0Mv5nCgWM066rNCqafAJeScX4WzCdJw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.academia.edu__;!!Mih3wA!WAbdo5T8clZdbaSRiStryH25GERvxlFFvv7xm2PZaIowRAKm26u2lmlg1OXvKH3w9PF7bQ$> for my recent publications

________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 10:27 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: How much fun are we having . . .

Thank you to Helena.  Very interesting.

"Vygotsky - through a Labor Education lens" -- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/iYndG7cKlj0__;!!Mih3wA!VvG8bqbNsBDA77KelAZufxGXpCvphNE_ZKLX-qz0Mv5nCgWM066rNCqafAJeScVkXghq7Q$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/iYndG7cKlj0__;!!Mih3wA!TEUjOSfiWRp0TM4f0of9IHUPilVY3cdyCB7aTG5A6Jd4TSu70iaaju2lZ974R-I7RgvKPw$>

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:05 PM Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com<mailto:helenaworthen@gmail.com>> wrote:
Anthony, I am going to try taking you up on your challenge.

How would YOU explain Vygotsky's theory for a general audience -- e.g., parents, teachers, coaches, relatives -- without sacrificing too much accuracy?

I did this, of course, in my book, What Did You Learn at Work Today? The Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education, published by Hardball Press in 2014.  Note the prestigious academic press  — and it only costs $15!!!! But I will boil it down to the 5-minute schpiel that I would give in my classes to union members whose second question, after “How did you learn to do labor education?” would be, “How can I get your job?”

Helena Worthen
helenaworthen@gmail.com<mailto:helenaworthen@gmail.com>
helenaworthen.wordpress.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://helenaworthen.wordpress.com__;!!Mih3wA!TAFFMpAC8Z-sarCBZ1096ZKAubJYY6x-H0Ry8_xyxTpxycaDyL87wBMJVZbUD25IOaUS6g$>

check your registration at vote.gov<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://vote.gov__;!!Mih3wA!TAFFMpAC8Z-sarCBZ1096ZKAubJYY6x-H0Ry8_xyxTpxycaDyL87wBMJVZbUD26CQqKEAg$>

On Nov 28, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com<mailto:anthonymbarra@gmail.com>> wrote:

Recently, a small spat has spun into an interesting larger discussion, and mostly productive at that.

The whole spat, however, began with a misunderstanding.  When sharing the "Why generations?" video, Andy was alluding, lightly and positively, to a previous video where he himself was "put on the spot" (ironically enough in a post titled "Let's have some fun!<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/09/an-audience-participation-question-lets-have-some-fun/__;!!Mih3wA!T43ZvPV-bP_hJ_7jwudj1LjgsrqO8umkMgxxV9l0-NRN9Ldn3GSgisSsJJXWQaTroRXAcg$>").  In my family, from childhood onward, 'on the spot' always had a positive, even playful connotation. (Maybe it's an italian-american thing?)

Sadly, the initial offer of fun, three weeks ago, was hardly taken up, save for a brief, interesting response from Huw Lloyd.  But the party shouldn't end, and the open-ended question remains:
How would YOU explain Vygotsky's theory for a general audience -- e.g., parents, teachers, coaches, relatives -- without sacrificing too much accuracy?

Andy gave it a nice go, without advanced warning (i.e., 'on the spot').  I think it's a pretty hard question, and maybe a poorly asked one -- but what if many of us weighed in and gave it a shot?  It'd probably be less hard then, and certainly interesting (and likely beneficial to anyone looking to share Vygotsky's work in various settings beyond academe) ---> "the pool of collective knowledge is big," perhaps even oceanic.

No one wants my advice, but this would be it: assume you have something worth saying and also that it might not come out as well as you'd like AND that people will want to hear it anyway, and even more importantly, that the momentum of having many voices contribute will be worth as much (probably more) than any individual contribution (i.e., literally no pressure).

Give it a shot here, maybe even in video-form if you'd like: "An Audience Participation Question . . . Let's Have Some Fun!"<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/11/09/an-audience-participation-question-lets-have-some-fun/__;!!Mih3wA!T43ZvPV-bP_hJ_7jwudj1LjgsrqO8umkMgxxV9l0-NRN9Ldn3GSgisSsJJXWQaTroRXAcg$>  <<But please avert your eyes at the 1:47-1:48 mark>> (I kid, I kid!)

There are other good videos over at CulturalPraxis -- and hopefully, the uptick in xmca engagement will spill over to there as well (the more the merrier).

As Natalia Gajdamaschko has suggested, "development comes out of resolving some sort of contradiction..some type of crisis -- a good crisis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net/wordpress1/2020/10/05/video-series-join-the-discussion-dr-natalia-gajdamaschko-crisis-in-the-classroom/__;!!Mih3wA!T43ZvPV-bP_hJ_7jwudj1LjgsrqO8umkMgxxV9l0-NRN9Ldn3GSgisSsJJXWQaQl-3J_Og$>."

Enjoy,

Anthony

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