[Xmca-l] Re: "conscious awareness enters through the gate" (a Participation Question)

Sat Aug 15 23:41:28 PDT 2020

>From Francine:

Andy,

Thank You for taking the time to explain your reading of Vygotsky from a Hegel/Marx perspective.

Together with my husband Larry, I am just now completing a paper on Vygotsky for a volume on pioneers of psychology.

I have come across sources that claim that Vygotsky's father was an admirer of Hegel and that Vygotsky would have been exposed to Hegel's ideas as he grew up. Now this doesn't
mean that his understanding of Hegel was that of a Hegel scholar. However,  it would suggest Vygotsky had taken an interest in dialectical thinking as it originated with Hegel prior to reading Marx.

Also, while Vygotsky was sincere in using theoretical concepts from Marx, he also used concepts from non-Marxist sources. I would argue that to get a full understanding of Vygotsky's writings you cannot discount any of these sources whether Hegel, Marx, Freud,
Ribot, Janet, Piaget, Buhler, Kohler, Lewin,  oh and even Pavlov. Also at least for a time, Vygotsky felt the intellectual freedom to weave concepts from these different 'schools' of psychology into a unified theory.

In The Mozart of Psychology, Stephen Toulmin quoted V. V. Ivanov as saying Vygotsky had opened the way to a unification of the biological and social sciences that had as great a significance as the deciphering of the genetic code (my paraphrasing).

 We can agree to disagree about this, but I think labeling Vygotsky as a Marxist, a Freudian, a Piagetian, a Gestaltist, is like putting a square peg into a round hole.

________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 10:10 PM
To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "conscious awareness enters through the gate" (a Participation Question)

Francine, you are completely right that Vygotsky's use of words is inconsistent and evolves over time.

How should we deal with this?

I don't believe there is any way to definitively settle disputes over the meaning of the various passages. Interpretation is inescapable. But my approach is this:

Vygotsky saw himself as a Marxist and although, as I have argued, he had little direct knowledge of Hegel, he aligned himself with that wing of Marxism which was "Hegelian." I see this as evidenced by his change of opinion c. 1930 on the meaning of "true concept," in his frequent citation of Lenin's Philosophical Notebooks, and his allusions to Hegel, his declaration about Psychology needing its own Capital and in general I find this proves to be a satisfactory frame for interpretation of Vygotsky, inclusive of the fact that within the terms of this frame he sometimes makes mistakes.

This approach is helped by having people like Ilyenkov who are careful about their use of words, and have read Hegel, etc., as assistants in reading Vygotsky. Plus you have to add what I have referred to as a "generous" reading of Vygotsky. Vygotsky is in the process of building the frame from which he can be read. But he is not building that frame alone.

This approach obviously doesn't help everyone and will not definitively close any dispute about Vygotsky's meaning, but it is a valid approach and it works for me.

So it is in that context that I say that "consciousness" is a very broad term for Marxists, inclusive of the totality of mental processes in an organism. The verb "to be conscious of" is a different concept, as is the adjective in "conscious awareness." These are distinctions which are far from being unique to Vygotsky. But I would generally look elsewhere in the same paradigm to get clues on their meaning, though sometimes it is necessary to look at contemporaneous usage among non-Marxist Psychologists.

It's never simple. But not impossible.

Andy

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On 16/08/2020 12:10 pm, Larry Smolucha wrote:
>From Francine:

I don't usually enter into these philosophical debates on XMCA - but we have crossed each other's paths.

There is no concordance to Vygotsky's writings (as we have for Freud's).
As I recall there was an XMCA project to create a dictionary of Vygotsky's terminology.
Simply to have a dictionary of Freud's terminology, would be of limited use without a concordance to track his use of the terms as his theory evolved.
The same with Vygotsky.

And there is theoretical continuity throughout Vygotsky's writings despite claims to the contrary. To understand Vygotsky's use of the word consciousness, it is necessary to look at Consciousness as a Problem in the Psychology of Behavior (1925).
Reading only the very last passage in Thinking and Speech, you could come to the erroneous conclusion that for Vygotsky any living being without language is not conscious (i.e. is unconscious).

The problem here is that the word conscious has multiple meanings (usages).
We can rule out the medical determination of a patient being conscious versus unconscious.

I would argue that Vygotsky used the word consciousness to mean consciously directed
functions (behavior, perception, thought, emotion, will, imagination, and memory).

The proof is in the very quote that he used from Marx's Das Kapital of how the spider constructs a web by instinct, but the "architect raises the structure in his imagination before he erects it in reality."

There is also an interesting lineage between Ribot and Janet's concept of the unconscious, that carried over into Freud's use of the term, and over to Vygotsky's and Luria's theory of the prefrontal cortex's role in consciously directed functions. In 1925, Vygotsky was thinking along the same lines as Freud's concept of consciousness as a function of the Ego. He even cited Freud's example of the Ego as a rider on a horse (the Id).

There are other papers between 1925 and 1934, where Vygotsky discussed the problem of consciousness - but enough said for now.

In regard to scientific concepts, I didn't think that Piaget thought scientific concepts were necessarily learned in school. Didn't he think that concrete and formal operations develop from activities involving natural objects in the world? Either independently or with peers?

In regard to The Development of Scientific Concepts in Childhood (1986, p. 167) Vygotsky stated "Elsewhere we have already discussed the role played by functional interactions in mental development. . . mental development does not coincide with the development of separate psychological functions, but rather depends on changing relations between them   .  . . the development of the interfunctional system."

Hence Vygotsky didn't take a reductionist approach to development of conscious awareness, as the result of thinking in terms of scientific concepts. Conscious awareness enters through the gate opened up by scientific concepts but that doesn't mean it is the only gate.

________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu><mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 6:06 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu><mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "conscious awareness enters through the gate" (a Participation Question)

I was not being ironic, David
If scientific concepts are required for conscious awareness (as specified in the quotation I was asked to respond to) and people who
have not been to school do not acquire Piagetian concepts related to formal operations (for example) or other measure of "thinking in
scientific concepts) if seems to follow that they have not achieved conscious awareness.

LSV writes about non-literate, indigenous, peoples that they are capable of complexes, but not true concepts (I think the use of the term.
"scientific" is not helpful here). Luria interprets his data on self-consciousness that are a part of the same monograph as his work on syllogisms,
classification, etc among Uzbekis who had experienced various degrees of involvement in modern (e.g. Russian) forms of life as evidence for
what might be termed "lack of conscious awareness I am not sure."

mike

On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 3:31 PM David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu<mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:

Maybe I missed an ironic intention, Michael, but on August 11 Anthony asked about the meaning of a couple of paragraphs from Thinking and Speech.

Here is the passage in question, from Thinking and Speech, Ch. 6, pp. 190-1:

"To perceive something in a different way means to acquire new potentials for acting with respect to it. At the chess board, to see differently is to play differently. By generalizing the process of activity itself, I acquire the potential for new relationships with it. To speak crudely, it is as if this process has been isolated from the general activity of consciousness. I am conscious of the fact that I remember. I make my own remembering the object of consciousness. An isolation arises here. In a certain sense, any generalization or abstraction isolates its object. This is why conscious awareness – understood as generalization – leads directly to mastery.

Thus, the foundation of conscious awareness is the generalization or abstraction of the mental processes, which leads to their mastery. Instruction has a decisive role in this process. Scientific concepts have a unique relationship to the object. This relationship is mediated through other concepts that themselves have an internal hierarchical system of interrelationships. It is apparently in this domain of the scientific concept that conscious awareness of concepts or the generalization and mastery of concepts emerges for the first time. And once a new structure of generalization has arisen in one sphere of thought, it can – like any structure – be transferred without training to all remaining domains of concepts and thought. Thus, conscious awareness enters through the gate opened up by the scientific concept."

Mike’s reply, in total was:

I understand that to mean that humans who have not achieved scientific/real concepts do not have conscious awareness.

What am I missing?

Mike

David

From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 4:36 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "conscious awareness enters through the gate" (a Participation Question)

David,

Are you saying that either Mike Cole or Lev Vygotsky, or both, are claiming that 5-year old children (for example) lack conscious awareness of the world they live in?

Puzzled...

Martin

On Aug 14, 2020, at 9:16 PM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu<mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:

Andy,

That “any ‘actual’ concept is the intersection or merging of both the scientific and spontaneous path,” speaks to their complementarity, making them akin to Type 1 and Type 2 processing I referred to in my post.

But they’re also hierarchically related, since according to Mike’s interpretation of a Vygotsky’s passage cited by Anthony a few days ago, “humans who have not achieved scientific/real concepts do not have conscious awareness.”

I do not question Vygotsky’s genius. What I do question is the coherence of the interpretive frames that have evolved from his work. As Michael observed in a recent post, “like the writer he wanted to be he [Vygotsky] used phrases and ideas less as truths and more to move his narrative forward.” What I always wonder in eavesdropping on XMCA is whether the issues we discuss are resolvable, or is the theoretical backdrop to our conversation so heterogeneous as to make the possibility of resolution illusory.

David

From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 10:32 AM
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Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "conscious awareness enters through the gate" (a Participation Question)

No David, as I said, the term "scientific concept" as it is understood nowadays, tends to mislead. The distinction for Vygotsky is entirely, as you say, developmental, and it is not a categorisation either (as in putting things into boxes), and nothing to do with "sophistication." "Scientific concept" refers to the path of development that begins with an abstract (decontextualised) concept acquired through instruction in some more or less formal institution. "Spontaneous concept" refers to the path of development which begins with everyday experience, closely connected with immediate sensori-motor interaction and perception, i.e., it begins from the concrete, whereas the "scientific" is beginning from the abstract.

Any "actual" concept is the intersection or merging of both the scientific and spontaneous path. For example (1) everyday life is full of ideas which have their source in institutions, but have made their way out of the institutional context into everyday life. On the other hand, for example (2) any scientific concept worth its salt has made its way out of the classroom and become connected with practice, like the book-learning of the medical graduate who's spent 6 months in A&E.

I admit, this is not clear from Vygotsky's prose. But here's the thing: when you're reading a great thinker and what they're saying seems silly, trying reading it more generously, because there's probably a reason this writer has gained the reputation of being a great thinker.

Andy

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On 15/08/2020 1:14 am, David H Kirshner wrote:

Thanks for your accessible example, Michael.

Vygotsky’s scientific / spontaneous distinction between types of concepts has always struck me as such an unfortunate solution to the problem of differential sophistication in modes of reasoning. I’m sure this problem must have deep roots in classical and contemporary philosophy, even as it is reflected in cognitive psychology’s Dual Process Theory that at its “theoretical core amounts to a dichotomous view of two types of processes…: type 1—intuitive, fast, automatic, nonconscious, effortless, contextualized, error-prone, and type 2—reflective, slow, deliberate, cogitative, effortful, decontextualized, normatively correct” (Varga & Hamburger, 2014). What externalizing this distinction as different kinds of cognitive products (this or that kind of concept) seems to do is distract/detract from the sociogenetic character of development. Surely, a sociogenetic approach seeks to interpret these different forms of reasoning as differential discursive practices, embedded in different cultural contexts (Scribner, Cole, etc.). But talking about different kinds of concepts seems like the wrong departure point for that journey.

David

From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 7:03 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu><mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "conscious awareness enters through the gate" (a Participation Question)

Hi Andy, Henry, Anna Lisa,

Let me start by saying that this is completely restricted to the way conscious awareness is used in Thinking and Speech. If it is use differently in other places this perspective may be wrong. To my mind (with the proviso that my mind if often wrong) Vygotsky is using the idea of conscious awareness for a specific purpose. To differentiate the role of spontaneous concepts with non-spontaneous concepts. Spontaneous concepts are based initially in affective memory and they give energy and motivation to many of our activities. However we are not consciously aware of them. To go back to chess, I am at the pool and my friend comes up to me and says “Chess?” I say yes. I have no conscious awareness of the concept of chess in my life, why I say yes so easily why it may be a way to make a social connection between me and my friend. It is residue of my affective memory (I don’t know how much Vygotsky was using Ribot when making this argument). We are playing chess and I remember that my brother showed me the non-spontaneous/scientific concept of the bishop’s gambit. As this point in my life I have to think about it and whether I want to use it. I must summon the intellectual functions of memory and attention as I think about the use of the bishop’s gambit. This then is conscious awareness of the scientific concept. I used the bishop’s gambit and win the game and I applaud myself. I got home and tell my brother, the bishop’s gambit was great, thanks. I am mediating the scientific concept of the bishop’s gambit with my everyday concept of playing chess. Voila, development!!!!

I don’t know if Vygotsky uses conscious awareness differently elsewhere.

Michael

From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 11:51 PM
To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: "conscious awareness enters through the gate" (a Participation Question)

Henry, my aim was just to introduce Annalisa and whoever to the scientific way that the terms "conscious awareness" and "consciousness" are used in CHAT. I say "scientific" in the sense that in CHAT we have a system of concepts and associated word meanings which have, if you like, conventional meanings. There is nothing wrong with "automatic and controlled processing" and "ballistic processing" but so far as I am aware these terms were not in Vygotsky's vocabulary. I could be wrong of course and I am sure I will be rapidly corrected if this is the case.

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