[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?

Sun Apr 26 13:28:56 PDT 2020

*"the ability to glance at a chart and interpret it is likely to be a
semiotic means not readily available to those without education to
interpret them"*

. . . and this is especially true with the models, which are often not
intended to be "true" but rather persuasive, or "directionally true"  --
here is where being highly educated and 'chart-literate' might hurt more
than help (i.e., reading the charts accurately, but mistaking the modeling
as real data; or 'reading the text but missing the context').

It's a tricky landscape

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 3:54 PM mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:

> You raise a point that links to Mary's description, Martin
>
> *As for making visible the virus and the illness, of course the charts
> make visible aspects of infection.  *
>
> I think that the ability to glance at a chart and interpret it is likely
> to be a semiotic means not readily available to
> those without education to interpret them. Or to rely on the source of
> information from this they come -- A government
> they have lost trust in.
>
> Professional vision, so to speak.
>
>
> mike
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 12:41 PM Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:
>
>> Thanks to Mary and David for providing ‘local' accounts…
>>
>> To take a shot at Mary’s question, Do we need governments to set up the
>> conditions for the actions of individuals? - it seems that David’s answer
>> is, we don't when there is a 'flexible and cooperative mindset,’ perhaps
>> forged in previous shared difficulties. Perhaps that applies to S. Korea as
>> well.
>>
>> I suppose it should not be surprising that the most individualistic
>> nations, the UK and US, seem to be having the greatest difficulty in coming
>> together to face the situation. But even there, between individual and
>> national government are a set of institutions that I think could play an
>> important role in guiding people’s actions.
>>
>> Some simple examples that come to mind. Here, banks are expanding online
>> services and dropping charges for online transfers, thus removing a
>> barrier, albeit small, to providing financial assistance. Stores are
>> creating symbolic markers that make visible safer interpersonal distance —
>> simple things like tape on the floor. I don’t know what stance the various
>> religious institutions are taking. These are small steps, but they help
>> nudge individual actions in the right direction.
>>
>> As for making visible the virus and the illness, of course the charts
>> make visible aspects of infection. Tests, when they are available, create
>> markers of infection and, hopefully, immunity. I worry that the media’s
>> focus on the extremely ill may not encourage people to make sensible
>> choices.
>>
>> One of the problems with staying at home is that while avoiding direct
>> contact is healthy, it also prevents first-hand experience of the illness
>> for most people.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 26, 2020, at 3:40 AM, Mary van der Riet <VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I am struck in all of these conversations of the similarities with the
>> HIV pandemic . We face these issues daily in the Southern African region
>> (the highest prevalence of HIV globally).
>> We say 'it depends on us', and revert to information sharing, and
>> dependence on cognitive shifts and adaptations (all of the old behaviour
>> change theories  Theory of Reasoned Action; Health Belief Models)- see the
>> risk, know what the risk means, know how to prevent it, and make changes to
>> your behaviour in order to protect yourself.
>> All of this is relevant for the COVID 10 pandemic, and much of it is not
>> working. We as educated adults see the risk, know the risk, know how to
>> protect ourselves (to the degree that scientists have informed us, and to
>> the degree that science knows about the transmission) and yet it is really
>> hard to change behaviour, to 'believe' that this is real
>>
>> And what does it mean for action? It means people don't social distance,
>> don't use masks, see themselves as infallible etc.
>>
>> The origin of actions/activity do/does not reside in cognition...we know
>> that from Activity theory, CHAT, etc.
>>
>> In the HIV pandemic in SA, there are still people who believe that you
>> are fine if you cant see the symptoms (loss of weight, skin conditions,
>> diarrohea - a fallacy by the way). A taxi driver said he would rather have
>> HIV than Covid 19 because he could 'see'  that someone was or was not HIV
>> positive, but he is scared of Covid 19 because he cant 'see' it. Same
>> discourse, same consequences.
>> Then there was a period in SA where HIV public health messaging was about
>> showing coffins, and symbols of death to try to get people to take in the
>> seriousness of it all. Do we find this now? are those more directly
>> infected (someone in their family, seeing someone ill with Covid 19 -
>> doctors, nurses)- more convinced about the nature of the problem). Perhaps
>> not for some in the USA protesting this viral hoax. So, what changes
>> behaviour?
>>
>> The question is the same - what is the motive that drives the health
>> protection actions of individuals? The origin of behaviour is not
>> individual cognition.
>>
>> Uganda was seen to have been so effective in reducing HIV incidence
>> because it made HIV a notifiable disease.  Is this draconian? Does it
>> infringe on individual rights? [In SA we have not done that, we have a
>> constitutional right to control and manage and keep private our HIV status;
>> AND we have huge levels of stigma (extreme fear of going for an HIV test in
>> a university context because people will 'see you there, and think you are
>> HIV positive). At the same time, young women at universities are afraid of
>> unplanned pregnancies because they are visible, (unlike HIV), and evidence
>> of sexual activity. So, contradictions and tensions in practices around
>> sexual activity in the context of 'risk' or vulnerability to HIV.]
>> Governments who can instruct people how to behave (ie take the
>> responsibility away from the individual) seem to have had more control over
>> the spread of the virus (SA during lockdown). So a rule or a law which
>> governs individual actions (and creating the context for an action,
>> prescribing what might be 'afforded' in the context) might be more
>> effective that the individual 'making a decision'
>> If condom use amongst young people is not a 'norm' it is difficult for
>> one person to engage with condom use.
>>
>> Do we need governments to set up the conditions for the actions of
>> individuals?
>>
>> Mary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Mary van der Riet (Phd), **Associate Professor*
>> *Discipline of Psychology, **School of Applied Human Sciences, College
>> of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa*
>> *email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za <vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za>
>>   **tel: +27 33 260 6163*
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> on behalf of Julian Williams <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, 25 April 2020 20:24
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>>
>> Martin, David
>>
>> Yes a lot depends... on ‘us’.
>>
>> Check out the report, where you can see how much was ‘predicted’ years
>> ago, even the possible public outrage ensuing government failures ; but yes
>> my decisive, main point was not to predict, but to ACT.
>>
>> David I agree the bioscience issues are important, but bear in mind that
>> our sloppy public health systems globally ( eg with wild life markets)
>> expose humanity to many new viruses ( they estimate 2-4 new viruses per
>> year) - our relations and actions shape this threat.
>>
>> Then also not just immediately, but imaginatively, to play with models
>> (and not just those reductive epidemiologists’ ‘predictions’) .. but to
>> imagineer a world subject that can act in future to tackle essentially
>> GLOBAL challenges.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Julian
>>
>> On 25 Apr 2020, at 18:10, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:
>>
>> That’s the problem with predicting - it all depends!  :)
>>
>> Yes, coronavirus may become endemic, like flu or the common cold or
>> something worse.
>>
>> Or a vaccine may be developed.
>>
>> Or if 4 in 5 are somehow naturally resistant, and if most of the 1 in 5
>> who become infected develop immunity as a result, the incidence of covid
>> could drop dramatically.
>>
>> Or we could all drink disinfectant.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 11:49 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> It is possible that the virus is eradicated, like SARS was, but that’s
>> increasingly unlikely.
>> More likely is that “2019-nCoV joins the four coronaviruses now
>> circulating in people. ‘I can imagine a scenario where this becomes a fifth
>> endemic human coronavirus,’ said Stephen Morse of Columbia University’s
>> Mailman School of Public Health, an epidemiologist and expert on emerging
>> infectious diseases.”
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/04/two-scenarios-if-new-coronavirus-isnt-contained/__;!!Mih3wA!Vpr-D-opy9G3oBErs0dshiW2BhUnYsVVOriXYZmsifUaKuIC535SmVW08UaP2kEUqjQLUA$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/6hDpCO796QhAZnyAIvt4ky?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPcPjQKww$>
>>
>> The fact that such a large proportion of people who contract the virus
>> are asymptomatic make this one very hard to contain. Of course, the
>> possibility of a vaccine would greatly reduce its human toll.
>>
>> David
>>
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>  *On Behalf Of *Martin Packer
>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2020 11:14 AM
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>>
>> David,
>>
>> There is talk about the possible eradication of the virus in Australia
>> and New Zealand, from what I have read. Eradication is difficult when no
>> one has resistance, but not impossible. Other virus infections have been
>> eradicated, as far as one can tell, such as smallpox.
>>
>> In Wuhan, where the infections started, which is a city of around 11
>> million people, less that 70,000 cases were reported. Even if that is
>> vastly underreported by a factor of 10 it is less than 10%.  And studies in
>> California suggest that only 1 in 5 have been infected, of whom 60% have
>> not experienced any symptoms. Only around 5% need hospitalization.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 10:46 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Martin,
>> The scenario you sketched out is what I’d thought would/could happen, but
>> the epidemiologists don’t ever talk about eradicating the virus, they just
>> talk about slowing the spread so as not to overwhelm health care
>> facilities. Eventually, everyone who can get it will get it. So a
>> generation of older and weaker people will be adversely affected, many
>> dying. It’s only in the next generation when most people have gotten it
>> young that it will fade into the background, like the common cold.
>> David
>>
>>
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>  *On Behalf Of *Martin Packer
>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2020 7:42 AM
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>>
>> Julian,
>>
>> If no efforts are made to contain a virus it will move through a
>> population in a single wave, infecting many people and then disappearing as
>> no more potential hosts are available.
>>
>> If efforts to contain it — lockdown — are adequate there will be a single
>> much smaller wave, followed again by elimination as hosts are not available.
>>
>> If containment is not effective — if people don’t isolate sufficiently —
>> there may be a second wave when the containment is reduced. Or the first
>> wave may not be controlled.
>>
>> As you say, each country is responding differently. Australia seems close
>> to eliminating the virus after a single wave. The US and UK are somewhere
>> between starting a second wave and still being in a poorly controlled first
>> wave. Colombia seems to be still moving up its first wave.
>>
>> The behavior of a virus can be modeled, but only on the basis of
>> assumptions about how people are going to behave. Since we cannot predict
>> this behavior, we cannot even predict how the virus will or will not
>> spread, let alone the political, economic and social consequences.
>>
>> To say this is not to be pessimistic; pessimism would be predicting a
>> dire outcome. Rather, it highlights that the outcome lies in all our hands.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:43 AM, Julian Williams <
>> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Andy/Greg
>>
>> Each nation state appears to be ‘playing’ the pandemic in different ways
>> (eg China, Italy, Australia, NZ, Sweden, UK, USA,… check out attached
>> report which comes from https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pandemic.internationalsos.com/2019-ncov__;!!Mih3wA!Vpr-D-opy9G3oBErs0dshiW2BhUnYsVVOriXYZmsifUaKuIC535SmVW08UaP2kHQ9cfy4g$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/WKreCQ1LgVt6lOy6UkWzra?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPcULkNqg$>
>>     I get one of these reports every few days)  while sometimes looking
>> to other countries to see how their numbers are growing/falling (and mostly
>> making a damn poor job of it).
>>
>> Before this all got going, the scientists already had a pretty good idea
>> how a pandemic works, and even what needed to be done to prepare for it:
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-uk-ministers-were-warned-last-year-of-risks-of-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!Vpr-D-opy9G3oBErs0dshiW2BhUnYsVVOriXYZmsifUaKuIC535SmVW08UaP2kF6yQk7eg$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/_lv0CVmZn1Flk3RlUkGoAn?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbM-6N4beg$>
>> And now we know a bit more than we did then.
>>
>> There is a prediction/warning there about a number of pandemic waves…
>>
>> In the second ‘wave’, we – the world subject-in-formation may have learnt
>> more, maybe there will be fewer deaths?  Maybe we will rescue WHO, maybe
>> not (I won’t predict). But maybe the science community will be paying
>> serious attention, and especially to its duty to the ‘public good’. But
>> there are some contradictory signs. In my own university we seem to be
>> about to enter a new austerity, (implemented from the top by a failing
>> leadership, led by a true academic, bio scientist no less!)
>>
>> What is clear is that the ‘public’ and its social movements are key to
>> forcing each government to act, and that in almost all cases our leaders
>> and rulers have followed along reluctantly – even while the science and the
>> pandemic plan was there.
>>
>> In the third and subsequent waves? I agree it’s not predictable: the
>> outcomes will depend entirely on all of ‘us’.
>>
>> And in the next ‘big one’, the climate collapse? Maybe all this pandemic
>> ‘play’ will have helped prepare us, we maybe will learn how to build the
>> institutions, policies etc for the world’s ‘public good’ in time. I still
>> have hope.
>>
>> I use Vygotsky-Leontiev’s idea of ‘play’ as the leading activity of the
>> pre-schooler, as I find it complements the notion of world perezhivanie –
>> yes, we are experiencing trauma and that drives activity to overcome, etc,
>> but also in this play we are acting, reflecting, and always – above all -
>> imagining and re-imagining (modelling etc) our world future.
>>
>> Julian
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden <
>> andyb@marxists.org>
>> *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Date: *Saturday, 25 April 2020 at 02:08
>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>>
>> Greg, the word is polysemic, as Mike said, but I agree with Michael that
>> *perezhivaniya* are essentially collective experiences. As I say in the
>> article, that COVID will be experienced differently in different countries,
>> by different classes and social groups is an important part of this
>> process. It does not detract it from its being a single experience.
>> Huw, a "world subject" is emergent at this moment. It is implicit or
>> "in-itself" but I look forward to the appearance of such a world subject,
>> though who know how long and through what traumas we will pass before it is
>> an actuality. Like WW2, the COVID pandemic part of its birth process.
>>
>>    - https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm__;!!Mih3wA!Vpr-D-opy9G3oBErs0dshiW2BhUnYsVVOriXYZmsifUaKuIC535SmVW08UaP2kEurW-xoQ$ ,
>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/UMhMCX6Vp3CnD2znTM_08r?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbNMRB4ufg$>
>>     Notes, links, excerpts, 2009
>>    -
>>    https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Blunden_article*response.pdf__;Kw!!Mih3wA!Vpr-D-opy9G3oBErs0dshiW2BhUnYsVVOriXYZmsifUaKuIC535SmVW08UaP2kGb1pz2cw$ 
>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/gV6QCZ4Xr5CM8lpMcJR6Bn?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPSO2hngg$>,
>>    MCA article 2016
>>    -
>>    https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Coronavirus-pandemic.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!Vpr-D-opy9G3oBErs0dshiW2BhUnYsVVOriXYZmsifUaKuIC535SmVW08UaP2kE7IeihKw$ 
>>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/2Pc6C2RJD6SkZ19kF8rfOj?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbOv5tCMuA$>
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/KuihC3lJV7Cm9qEmTzYQ1D?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPsrc8S0g$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/YmbqC48KGgtJ9gvJuLtaRJ?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPIPBoc2g$>
>> On 25/04/2020 4:01 am, Greg Thompson wrote:
>>
>> I'm wondering about Andy's suggestion that covid-19 is a (or maybe "is
>> creating a"?) world perezhivanie. That seems a really rich suggestion but
>> I'm not sure how many of us on the list really understand what he means by
>> this.
>>
>> Andy tends to just tell me to go read more and so I'm wondering if
>> someone else might be willing to take a stab at explaining what he might
>> mean.
>>
>> Also, as a critical intervention, I am wondering whether covid-19 is the
>> "same" for everyone. We have folks in the U.S. who think it is basically
>> just a typical flu that has been turned into a political tool to attack the
>> current president. Or does that not matter for perezhivanie?
>>
>> (and just to be clear, my question is not whether or not this is true or
>> right or beautiful to think this way; my question is whether or not this is
>> how people are actually experiencing the world since I assume that this is
>> what perezhivanie is supposed to be "getting at". Or am I misunderstanding
>> perezhivanie?)
>>
>> So is there really a shared perezhivanie here?
>> (Is The Problem of Age the place to look for answers?)
>>
>> But if no one wants to take this up (perhaps too much ink has been spilt
>> over perezhivanie?), that's fine too.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> greg
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>> Brigham Young University
>> Provo, UT 84602
>> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!Vpr-D-opy9G3oBErs0dshiW2BhUnYsVVOriXYZmsifUaKuIC535SmVW08UaP2kHHDnYc3w$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/wXeAC66VKkCo0zBohE9bWA?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbO7_a8clQ$>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!Vpr-D-opy9G3oBErs0dshiW2BhUnYsVVOriXYZmsifUaKuIC535SmVW08UaP2kGl_5syfA$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/zsL0C8qYKmUjP1KjfZu5le?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbNtZXrGEg$>
>>
>> <Executive Summary 15 APRIL 2020 FINAL[1].docx>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> the creation of utopias – and their exhaustive criticism – is the proper
> and distinctive method of sociology.  H.G.Wells
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other
> members of LCHC, visit
> lchc.ucsd.edu.  For archival materials and a narrative history of the
> research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
>
>
>
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