From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Tue Oct 1 03:04:11 2019 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 10:04:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science In-Reply-To: References: <0f9879e2-def0-a5ae-97db-baed494675c8@marxists.org> <2906D95D-3BC3-4A33-9EA8-CC75D7135C4A@uio.no> <432CB640-45AE-4B28-A26B-D5457C4FCBCB@ils.uio.no> <0e5052e6-efcc-1318-442e-684be270050d@marxists.org> <71AB4B22-A219-46F1-8733-BDC4D9D12A0A@uio.no> <602A54D2-4B1D-4BDC-B865-0F8AC2BB2DC8@uio.no> Message-ID: <607799137.2355993.1569924251342@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Greg , Alfredo-- It was said that thethread has come to be too tiresome but still it goes on and I?ve not read tothe end yet. In the past we have discussedthis point. ? This is Alfredo : Thanks Greg; I did notthink you suggested capitalism is ?ethical?, but I was questioning the notionthat capitalism was a framework for ethical evaluation. I of course see it is acontext within which all sorts of practices emerge, but that it itself providesan ethical framework crashes with my preconceptions of what ethics means. I thinkI need someone to help us clarify what ?ethics? means.? And this is Greg :? ?to my mind,capitalism is unethical and that it provides a rather unfortunate grounding forethics and morality. (and you'll notice that this leads me directly to what Iwas chiding you for - an argument about the false consciousness of theproponents (pushers?) of capitalism!!). ?Cristopher J Arthur is a Hegelian. Let?s ponder over what hesays : [[Moreover, besides political mediations, moral imperativesalso have a place. If workers are class-conscious this by no meansabolishes individual interests. Game theory has shown it is often impossible *toreduce common action for common benefit to the rational self-interest ofeach individual taken separately*. ?Selling out? often presents itself as apreferred option. Hence the need for mediation by ***proletarian moralityexpressed in such terms as ?solidarity?, ?class loyalty?, ?revolutionary duty?;and the inculcation of contempt for ratebusters, scabs, ?blue-eyed boys? andthe like***. The contradiction between class interest and individual interest is alived experience that cannot be abolished in thought but only as a result ofpractical action to change the situation. Marx** worried** that morality, as an ideologicalsuperstructure, was *a bourgeois ambush* tying the workers to a ***fakeuniversal***; he wanted to rely on class interest alone. It is interesting that when he *wasforced* to include in the Rules of the WMIA phrases about ?duty?, ?right??truth?, ?justice?, and ?morality?,11 he wrote toEngels that they were so placed as to *?do no harm?*.12 When this ?place? is examined the context is in the firstinstance that of members? *?conduct towards each other?*; and in any event it isclear that such notions are *subordinate to the struggle against class rule*.Marx here as elsewhere failed to grasp that the necessary loyalty ofindividuals to their class cannot be reduced to a purely prudential calculation?Marx didnot commit such a reduction What he did was tactical And as he did it in a waythat it did no HARM then it was like he did not do it altogether--; theindividual?s identity as a class warrior has to be socially constituted, andinstrumental in this is the inculcation of the **appropriate values.**--that theMoral Values as habitual un-reflected ungrounded fake universals of no workedout ?particularity? to be weighed as against bounded ?Universality? as a WHOLEare beyond CONCRETE COGNITION.]] The markings well say what Ethics means at least in Capitalism as Marx depicts it. I fear to be too ?too tiresome?. Just it remains for dear Greg to object that we are again glancingat the point extraneously , that is we have not installed our VISION DEVICEwithin Capitalism. And it?s up to us to say that when the ?Internal value? hasreached us as Unethical/Counter-ethical , then it?s not just impermissible forus to advocate the Evil but to make a haste to uproot it. ?? [Marx?s Verbatim :I saw that it was impossible to makeanything out of the stuff. In order to justify the extremely strange way inwhich I intended to present the "sentiment" already "votedfor", I wrote an Address to the Working Classes (which was not in theoriginal plan: a sort of review of the adventures of the working classes since1845); on the pretext that everything material was included in the address andthat we ought not to repeat the same things three times over, I altered thewhole preamble, threw out the declaration of principles, and finally replacedthe 40 rules with 10. Insofar as international politics come into the address,I speak of countries, not of nationalities, and denounce Russia, not the lessernations. My proposals were all accepted by the subcommittee. Only I was obligedto insert two phrases about "duty" and "right" into thepreamble to the statutes, ditto "truth, morality, and justice", butthese are placed in such a way that they can do no harm.] ? [For thesereasons ? The International Working Men's Association has been founded. It declares: That all societies and individuals adhering to it will acknowledgetruth, justice, and morality as the basis of their conduct toward each otherand toward all men, without regard to color, creed, or nationality;?] ? On Monday, September 30, 2019, 09:34:04 AM GMT+3:30, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Thanks Greg; I did not think you suggested capitalism is ?ethical?, but I was questioning the notion that capitalism was a framework for ethical evaluation. I of course see it is a context within which all sorts of practices emerge, but that it itself provides an ethical framework crashes with my preconceptions of what ethics means. I think I need someone to help us clarify what ?ethics? means.? Alfredo? On 30 Sep 2019, at 07:44, Greg Thompson wrote: Alfredo,? I appreciate your generosity in reading/responding as well as your forthrightness (without which, conversation can feel a bit empty). And I entirely respect and appreciate your position.? One point of clarification: on the relativism front I was simply making a statement of fact, capitalism provides a framework that people use to make ethical judgments. I wasn't suggesting that capitalism is ethical. I might add that as an anthropologist I believe that it is possible to judge beliefs and practices but that this can only be done after a deep understanding of the entire context of those beliefs and practices. I've had a lot of experience with capitalism and I'm pretty comfortable saying that, to my mind, capitalism is unethical and that it provides a rather unfortunate grounding for ethics and morality. (and you'll notice that this leads me directly to what I was chiding you for - an argument about the false consciousness of the proponents (pushers?) of capitalism!!). And I agree with Andy about the important contributions of others in this thread but I'm lacking the bandwidth to adequately acknowledge/engage right now. And still wondering if we could hear more from/about Vaedboncoeur and her work? Maybe there is a publication that someone could?point us to??Beth Ferholt's work seems quite relevant as well.?(but perhaps this thread is a bit too tiresome?). Very best,greg On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 5:11 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Thanks a lot Greg for your help and care, I really appreciate it and it is very helpful. And thanks also for emphasizing the importance of bridging across positions and trying to understand the phenomenon not only from our (often privileged) point of view, but also from that of others, even those with opposed belief systems. I truly appreciate that. ? Let me try to follow the signposts you nicely identified: - I see that my language lent itself to that reading. I believe the root of our differences is that I am trying to discuss denialism as a given historical practice, and not as something individual. At the individual level, both deniers and people who accept the science do so out of trust; just as you say, the one can argue that the other is the one who is wrong or trusting the wrong people. From the socio-historical perspective, however, neither position is the ?free? choice of individuals who came upon the thought and believed it. Climate science communication and dissemination has its channels and ways to reach the public, just as climate science denial does. It so happens, though, that climate science denial was born of an explicit attempt to generate doubt in people, to confuse them and manipulate them for profit. This is well documented in the links I shared earlier. If both science and science denial have a function of persuading, and we cannot differentiate between the two, then I think we have a big problem. What I am saying is that we should be able to differentiate between the two. I am not saying people who believe climate change is real is more conscious or better conscious or any other privilege; they may be acting out of pure habit and submission. I am saying, though, that if people would engage in critical inquiry and question the history of their reasoning habits, then they may be better equipped to decide; both sides. It so happens, however, that, if we all would engage in such exercise, one side would find out they are (involuntarily perhaps) supporting actions that really harm people. In today?s modern societies, not finding out is truly an exercise of faith. - You invite us to try to understand what the frameworks are within which people may see choosing to deny climate science as ?good? or the ?right? thing to do, and I applaud and support that goal. I think that framework is the sort of sociocultural object I am trying to discuss. Yet, by the same token, I?d invite anyone to consider the views and positions of those who are already suffering the consequences of global warming, and I wonder what justifies ignoring their suffering. This can be extrapolated to a myriad practices in which all of we engage, from buying phones to going to the toilette; we live by the suffering of others. And when we do so, we are wrong, we are doing wrong. That?s my view, but perhaps I am wrong. I believe human rights are not partisan, or negotiable; again, my leap of trust. - Thanks for sharing your experience with your acquainted. I?d like to clarify that, when using the language of criminality, I refer to the people directly involved in making conscious decisions, and having recurred to science, to then not just ignore the science but also present it wrongly, making it possible for denial practices to thrive. People like the one you describe are having to deal with what it?s been left for them, and I totally empathize. Finally, you explicitly state that you do not want to relativize, but then you also say that ?If capitalism is the framework for evaluating ethical behavior, then there is every reason to believe that EM execs are acting ethically?. To me, the suggestion that capitalism can be an ethical framework suggests a treatment of ethics as fundamentally arbitrary (meaning that any framework can be defined to evaluate ethical behavior). I am not sure I am ready to accept that assertion. ? Thanks! Alfredo ? ? From: on behalf of Greg Thompson Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 29 September 2019 at 23:44 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Alfredo,? ? Thanks for reminding me of the importance of my own humility with respect to the positions of others. (conclusion jumping is an unfortunate consequence of trying to respond quickly enough on a listserve to remain relevant - or at least that's a challenge for me).? ? Thank you for clarifying that your position is not to dehumanize. I appreciate that. ? Let me see if I can recover what it was from your prior email that provoked my response and I'll do my best to stick more closely to your words (respectfully) and what I didn't quite understand.? ? Here is the quote from your post: "I agree on the difficulties, but I would like to emphasize that being on the right or the wrong side in issues of climate change in today?s Global societies is a matter of having fallen pray to self-interested manipulation by others, or of being yourself one engaged in manipulating others for your own." ? This language of "fallen pray..." or, worse, "being... engaged in manipulating others..." were both phrases that I read to mean that this is something that THEY do and something that WE don't do (and ditto for the psychological studies that explain "their" behavior in terms of deterministic psychological principles - rather than as agentive humans (like us?)). But it seems that maybe I've misread you?? ? I think calling them "criminals" is a little better but doesn't capture the systemic nature of what they are doing or why it is that many people would say that they are doing good. Or to put it another way, I'd like to better understand the minds and life situations and experiences of these criminals - what are the frameworks within which their actions make sense as good and right and just and true. The point is not to relativize but to understand (this is the anthropologists' task). ? Relatedly, I may have mistakenly assumed that your question was somewhat tongue-in-cheek: "the motives of these corporations never were the ?feel that this is the ethically good and right position for humanity?.?Or do we?" ? I think that this is a real question and for my two cents I would suggest that the answers to this question are important?to the work of climate justice.? ? As I mentioned in the p.s. above, I recently had the opportunity to push the ExxonMobil recruiter on these issues. He's been working for them for about 7 years. He was conflicted when first joining ExxonMobil (hereafter EM) but I could sense how hard he continues to work to justify working for EM. A brief summary of his justification (and I took this to be EM's justification) could be summed up with: "just as there was an iron age in which innovations were essential to the development of human beings, we are now in the oil age". He acknowledged that oil is a problem but then pointed out that everything in the room was enabled by oil - whether because it was?transported there by gas-powered vehicles or because of the massive amounts of plastic, rubber, and other products that are made from oil and are everywhere in our everyday lives. His argument was that this is the way it is right now. Our lives (and our current "progress") are entirely dependent upon oil. And he clarified that EM's position is to find ways to transition away from oil dependency but remain as central to the world as they are now. He saw his position as one in which he could be on the "inside" and help to enable this transition and change. ? Now my point is NOT that he is right in all of what he says (or that EM is not a central cause of the problem that he seems not to be able to see). At the end of the day, I personally concluded that he is an oil apologist (and I did my best to point this out to him and to the potential ethical ironies of his work). Rather, my point is that I took him at his word that he genuinely believes what he says and that he did not "fall prey" to the manipulations of others and is not himself manipulating others to further his own interests. He does feel conflicted about his work but at the end of the day he feels that he is doing what is ethically good and right for humanity. ? And to take this one step further, I think that in order to evaluate whether something is ethical or not, we need some kind of framework within which to make such a determination. If capitalism is the framework for evaluating ethical behavior, then there is every reason to believe that EM execs are acting ethically. ? Let me know where I've misread you and/or misunderstood you. With apologies, greg ? On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 9:59 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Thanks Greg, for reminding us of the importance of humility. Please, let us all realize of the humanity of deniers, as much as those of anyone else. But no, I am not saying that they are the ones who live in a world of false consciousness. Please, if I wrote that somewhere, help me correct it, cause I did not intend to write so. I never said Exxon staff were not human, Greg. I said they are criminals. I am not alone in this:https://theintercept.com/2019/09/24/climate-justice-ecocide-humanity-crime/ ? I am more than happy to disagree, but your misrepresentation of what I just wrote went beyond what I can explain or understand in the language that I use. So, I think I?ll need help to find common ground and continue dialogue. ? Alfredo ? ? From: on behalf of Greg Thompson Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 29 September 2019 at 17:45 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Alfredo, ? You point to an important possibility that I would not want to rule out, the possibility of false consciousness. Yet, I'd like to also just point to the fact that one must undertake such a claim with the utmost of humility since "they" are making precisely the same kind of claim about you.? ? You say that THEY are the ones who live in a world of false consciousness, while WE are the ones who are awake to the reality of things. This is precisely what climate deniers say of you!!! They say that you are caught up in the pseudo-science of climate change that works to further the introduce governmental control over our daily lives (an outcome that for them is just as monstrous as what you describe). ? We can stand and shout and say that we are right and they are wrong, but we have to recognize that they are doing the same thing. We could try and kill them off since we are convinced that they are murders, but they might do the same. To me it seems, there is still something more that is needed. ? Another way to go about this is to seek some kind of true understanding across these divides. Rather than dismissing "them" as a bunch of manipulators who are just trying to get theirs or a bunch of dupes who are going along with a line that they've been sold, why not try to engage "them" as humans just like "we" are humans? How many climate change deniers have we actually talked to and treated as humans? (but, you object, they aren't human!) ? I don't think that this needs to be ALL of the work of climate justice, but I do think that it should be part of this work. And it happens to be one that is sorely lacking in many approaches. (and just to be clear, I'm not saying that it is lacking in yours, Alfredo, I'm just posing the question, perhaps you know and have had conversation with many deniers and realize their humanity). ? -greg p.s., I spoke with a recruiter for ExxonMobil this past week and he noted that their new CEO stated unequivocally that man-made climate change is real and that oil is a major cause of it.? ? ? ? ? On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 8:39 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Andy, ? I see and Greg?s point. I can see that not everyone denying climate change is necessarily a ?bad? person or the evil in and of themselves. ? However, I cannot agree with the statement that ?everyone acts because they think it right to do so?. I?ve done (and keep doing) enough stupid (and wrong!) things in my life to be convinced of the falsehood of that statement. That statement, in my view, would ONLY apply to (a) instances in which people indeed ponder/consider what they are about to do before they do it, and (b) the nature of their pondering is in fact ethical. ? Should we refer to Exxon corporate decision-makers who initiated misinformation campaigns to cast doubt on climate science as psychopaths (as per your definition)? Would that be fair to people with actual pathologies? I?d rather call them criminals. ? You seem to assume (or I misread you as assuming) that all actions are taken based on a pondering on what is right or wrong, even when that pondering has not taken place. First, I don?t think we always act based on decision-making. Second, not every decision-making or pondering may consider ethical dimensions of right or wrong. I invite you to consider how many people among those who deny the climate science has actually gone through an ethical pondering when they ?choose? to deny the science. My sense is that most deniers do not ?choose,? but rather enact a position that is, in the metaphorical terms that the author of the article that Anne-Nelly has shared uses, in the air they breath within their communities. I am of the view that exercising ethics, just as exercising science denial in the 21st century, is engaging in a quite definite historical practice that has its background, resources, and patterns or habits. I think that if we exercised (practiced) more of ethics, science denial would be less of a ?right? choice. That is, decision-making is a sociocultural endeavor, not something an individual comes up with alone. Sometimes we cannot choose how we feel or react, but we can choose who we get together to, the types of cultures within which we want to generate habits of action/mind. ? We cannot de-politicize science, for it is only in political contexts that science comes to effect lives outside of the laboratory. But we can generate cultures of critical engagement, which I think would bring us closer to your option (3) at the end of your e-mail when you ponder whether/how to disentangle bipartisanism and scientific literacy. I don?t think then relativism (that you act ethically or not depending on what you think it?s right or not, independently of whether great amounts of suffering happen because of your actions) is what would thrive. Rather, I believe (and hope!) *humanity* would thrive, for it would always ponder the question Dewey posed when considering why we should prefer democracy over any other forms of political organization, such as fascism: ? ?Can we find any reason that does not ultimately come down to the belief that democratic social arrangements promote a better quality of human experience, one which is more widely accessible and enjoyed, than do nondemocratic and antidemocratic forms of social life? Does not the principle of regard for individual freedom and for decency and kindliness of human relations come back in the end to the conviction that these things are tributary to a higher quality of experience on the part of a greater number than are methods of repression and coercion or force?? (Dewey, Experience and Education, chapter 3). ? Please, help me see how Exxon leaders considered any of these when they chose to deny the science, and thought it was right. I know voters did not ?choose? in the same way (Exxon staff trusted the science, indeed!). But it is back there where you can find an explanation for climate change denial today; it is in the cultural-historical pattern of thinking they contributed engineering, along with political actors, and not in the individual head of the person denying that you find the explanation. ? Alfredo From: on behalf of Andy Blunden Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 29 September 2019 at 15:28 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Alfredo, I think Greg's point is basically right, that is, everyone acts because they think it right to do so. The only exception would be true psychopaths. The issue is:why does this person believe this is the right thing to do and believe that this is the person I should trust and that this is the truth about the matter? Take Darwinian Evolution as an example. In the USA, this question has been "politicised," that is, people either accept the science or not according to whether they vote Democrat or Republican. There are variants on this, and various exceptions, but for the largest numbers belief in the Bible or belief in the Science textbook are choices of being on this side or the other side. This is not the case in many other countries where Evolution is simply part of the Biology lesson. In the UK, Anthropogenic climate change is not a Party question? either. People believe it whether they vote Tory or Labour. Still, how much people change their lives, etc., does vary, but that varies according to other issues; it is not a Party question. In Australia, Anthropogenic climate change is a Party question, even though this year right-wing political leaders no longer openly scorn climate science, but everyone knows this is skin deep. But like in the UK, Evolution is not a partisan question and eve the right-wing support public health (though it was not always so). The strategic questions, it seems to me are: (1) is it possible to break a single issue away from the partisan platform, and for example, get Republicans to support the teaching of Biology and sending their kids to science classes with an open mind? Even while they still support capital punishment and opposed abortion and public health? Or (2) Is it possible to lever a person away from their partisan position on a scientific or moral question, without asking for them to flip sides altogether? or (3) Is it easier to work for the entire defeat of a Party which opposes Science and Humanity (as we see it)? Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 29/09/2019 8:16 pm, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Thanks Anne-Nelly, I had not read this one. Very telling! Alfredo? ? On 29 Sep 2019, at 10:20, PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly wrote: Alfredo, You probably remember ?this very interesting report from a journalist :? https://www.dailykos.com/story/2019/6/8/1863530/-A-close-family-member-votes-Republican-Now-I-understand-why-The-core-isn-t-bigotry-It-s-worse I like to mention it because it contributes to illustrate your point, shading light on powerful micro-mechanisms. Anne-Nelly ? Prof. emer. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont Institut de psychologie et ?ducation Facult? des lettres et sciences humaines Universit? de Neuch?tel Espace Tilo-Frey 1 (Anciennement: Espace Louis-Agassiz 1) CH- 2000 Neuch?tel (Suisse) http://www.unine.ch/ipe/publications/anne_nelly_perret_clermont A peine sorti de presse:?https://www.socialinfo.ch/les-livres/38-agir-et-penser-avec-anne-nelly-perret-clermont.html ? ? ? ? ? De?: on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil R?pondre ??: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date?: dimanche, 29 septembre 2019 ? 09:45 ??: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc?: Vadeboncoeur Jennifer Objet?: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Greg, ? Thanks, we are on the same page. But you write: ?most climate change deniers are such because they feel that this is the ethically good and right position for humanity?. I agree on the difficulties, but I would like to emphasize that being on the right or the wrong side in issues of climate change in today?s Global societies is a matter of having fallen pray to self-interested manipulation by others, or of being yourself one engaged in manipulating others for your own. ? When you pick up a scientific article (very unlikely if you are a denier) or a press article, and read that the Earth is warming due to human civilization, and then think, ?nah, bullshit?, you most likely are inclined to infer that way cause that?s a cultural pattern of thinking characteristic of a group or community you belong to. There are out there many psychology studies showing the extent to which ?opinions? on climate science vary not with respect to how much one knows or understand, but rather with respect to your religious and political affiliation (see, for example,https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate1547 ). ? My point being that, when you deny climate change today, you engage in a practice that has a very definite historical origin and motive, namely the coordinated, systematic actions of a given set of fossil fuel corporations that, to this date, continue lobbying to advance their own interests, permeating through many spheres of civic life, including education: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/sep/19/shell-and-exxons-secret-1980s-climate-change-warnings http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Greenpeace_Dealing-in-Doubt-1.pdf?53ea6e ? We know that the motives of these corporations never were the ?feel that this is the ethically good and right position for humanity?. Or do we? Again, educating about (climate) *justice* and accountability may be crucial to the ?critical? approach that has been mentioned in prior e-mails. ? I too would love seeing Jen V. chiming in on these matters. Alfredo ? From: on behalf of Greg Thompson Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 29 September 2019 at 04:15 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: Jennifer Vadeboncoeur Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Alfredo and Artin, Yes and yes. ? Alfredo, yes, I wasn't suggesting doing without them, but simply that something more is needed perhaps an "ethical dimension" is needed (recognizing that such a thing is truly a hard fought accomplishment - right/wrong and good/evil seems so obvious from where we stand, but others?will see differently; most climate change deniers are such because they feel that this is the ethically good and right position for humanity not because they see it as an evil and ethically wrong position).? ? Artin, I wonder if Dr. Vadeboncoeur might be willing to chime in?? Sounds like a fascinating and important take on the issue. Or maybe you could point us to a reading? ? (and by coincidence, I had the delight of dealing with Dr. Vadebonceour's work in my data analysis class this week via LeCompte and Scheunsel's extensive use of her work to describe data analysis principles - my students found her work to be super interesting and very helpful for thinking about data analysis). ? Cheers, greg ? On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 9:19 AM Goncu, Artin wrote: ? The varying meanings and potential abuses of the connection between imagination and trust appear to be activity specific.? This can be seen even in the same activity, i.e., trust and imagination may be abused.? For example, I took pains for many years to illustrate that children?s construction of intersubjectivity in social imaginative play requires trust in one another.? Children make the proleptic assumption that their potential partners are sincere, know something about the topics proposed for imaginative play, and will participate in the negotiations of assumed joint imaginative pasts and anticipated futures.? However, this may not always be the case.? As Schousboe showed, children may abuse play to institute their own abusive agendas as evidenced in her example of two five year old girls pretending that actual urine in a bottle was soda pop ?trying to make a three year old girl to drink it.? This clearly supports exploring how we can/should inquire what Alfredo calls the third dimension.? More to the point, how do we teach right from wrong in shared imagination?? Vadeboncoeur has been addressing the moral dimensions of imagination in her recent work. ? Artin ? Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor, Emeritus University of Illinois at Chicago www.artingoncu.com/ ? ???????????????? ? From:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu]On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2019 9:35 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Yes, Greg, I agree there is all grounds and rights to question trust and imagination, but I am less inclined to think that we can do without them both. So, if there is a difference between imaginative propaganda aimed at confusing the public, and imaginative education that grows from hope and will for the common good, then perhaps we need a third element that discerns good from evil? Right from wrong? That may why, in order for people to actually engage in transformational action, what they need the most is not just to understand Climate Change, but most importantly, Climate Justice. Don?t you think? ? Alfredo ? From: on behalf of Greg Thompson Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Saturday, 28 September 2019 at 16:05 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Note that there is a great deal of trust and imagination going on right now in the US. We have the most imaginative president we?ve had in years. He can imagine his way to bigly approval ratings and a massive inaugural turnout. He imagines that trying to get dirt on an opponent is a ?beautiful conversation?. And if you watch the media these days, he has a cadre of others who are doing additional imagining for him as well - they are imagining what the DNC is trying to do to ouster this president, they are imagining what Joe Biden might really have been up to with that prosecutor. And what makes matters worst is that there is a rather large contingent of people in the US who trust this cadre of imaginative propagandists and who trust Trump and believe that they are the only ones who have the real truth. So I guess I?m suggesting there might be reason to question imagination and trust (and this all was heightened for me by a dip into the imaginative and trust-filled land of conservative talk radio yesterday - but you can find the same message from anyone who is a Trump truster - including a number of politicians who are playing the same game of avoiding the facts (no one on those talk shows actually repeated any of the damning words from Trumps phone call) while constructing an alternative narrative that listeners trust). Sadly, Greg ? ? On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 5:17 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Henry, all, ? Further resonating with Beth et al?s letter, and with what Henry and Andy just wrote, I too think the point at which trust and imagination meet is key. ? A couple of days ago, I watched, together with my two daughters (10 and 4 years old respectively) segments of theRight to a Future event organized by The Intercept https://theintercept.com/2019/09/06/greta-thunberg-naomi-klein-climate-change-livestream/, where young and not-so-young activists and journalists discussed visions of 2029 if we, today, would lead radical change. It was a great chance to engage in some conversation with my children about these issues, specially with my older one; about hope and about the importance of fighting for justice. ? At some point in a follow-up conversation that we had in bed, right before sleep, we spoke about the good things that we still have with respect to nature and community, and I?perhaps not having considered my daughter?s limited awareness of the reach of the crisis?emphasized that it was important to value and enjoy those things we have in the present, when there is uncertainty as to the conditions that there will be in the near future. My daughter, very concerned, turned to me and, with what I felt was a mix of fair and skepticism, said: ?but dad, are not people fixing the problem already so that everything will go well?? ? It truly broke my heart. I reassured her that we are working as hard as we can, but invited her not to stop reminding everyone that we cannot afford stop fighting. ? My daughter clearly exhibited her (rightful) habit of trust that adults address problems, that they?ll take care of us, that things will end well, or at least, that they?ll try their best. In terms of purely formal scientific testing, it turns out that my daughter?s hypothesis could easily be rejected, as it is rather the case that my parent?s generation did very little to address problems they were ?aware? of (another discussion is what it is meant by ?awareness? in cases such as being aware of the effects of fossil fuels and still accelerating their exploitation). Yet, it would totally be against the interest of science and society that my daughter loses that trust. For if she does, then I fear she will be incapable of imagining a thriving future to demand and fight for. I fear she will lose a firm ground for agency. Which teaches me that the pedagogy that can help in this context of crisis is one in which basic trust in the good faith and orientation towards the common good of expertise is restored, and that the only way to restore it is by indeed acting accordingly, reclaiming and occupying the agency and responsibility of making sure that younger and older can continue creatively imagining a future in which things will go well at the end. ? Alfredo ? ? ? From: on behalf of Andy Blunden Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Saturday, 28 September 2019 at 04:38 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Trust and Science ? Science is based on trust, isn't it, Henry. Only a handful of people have actually measured climate change, and then probably only one factor. If we have a picture of climate change at all, for scientists and non-scientists alike, it is only because we trust the institutions of science sufficiently. And yet, everyone on this list knows how wrong these institutions can be when it comes to the area of our own expertise. So "blind trust" is not enough, one needs "critical trust" so to speak, in order to know anything scientifically. Very demanding. Important as trust is, I am inclined to think trust and its absence are symptoms of even more fundamental societal characteristics, because it is never just a question ofhow much trust there is in a society, but who people trust. It seems that nowadays people? are very erratic aboutwho they trust about what and who they do not trust. Probably the agreement you saw between Huw and me was probably pretty shaky, but we have a commonality in our trusted sources, we have worked together in the past and share basic respect for each other and for science. Workable agreement. I despair over what I see happening in the UK now, where MPs genuinely fear for their lives because of the level of hatred and division in the community, which is beginning to be even worse than what Trump has created in the US. A total breakdown in trust alongside tragically misplaced trust in a couple of utterly cynical criminals! The divisions are just as sharp here in Oz too, but it has not go to that frightening level of menace it has reached in the UK and US. Greta Thunberg talks of a plural, collective "we" in opposition to a singular personal "you." She brilliantly, in my opinion, turns this black-and-white condition of the world around in a manner which just could turn it into its negation. Her use of language at the UN is reminiscent of Churchill's "we fill fight them on the beaches ..." speech and Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech. There's something for you linguists to get your teeth into! Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 28/09/2019 2:42 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: Andy and Huw, This is a perfect example of what I was talking about in the discussion of your article on Academia: Two philosophers having a dialog about the same pholosophical object, a dialog manifesting an experience of common understanding. In the same way that two mathematicians might agree on a mathematical proof. I have to believe that you are not bull shitting, that you really have understood each other via your language. So, of course this is of interest to a linguist, even though he/I don?t really get the ?proof?. I may not understand the arguments you are making, but I can imagine, based on slogging through thinking as a lingist, what it?s like to get it.? ? I think this relates to the problem in the world of a lack of trust in scientific expertise, in expertise in general. Where concpetual thinking reigns. So many climate deniers. So many Brexiters. But can you blame them entirely? Probably it would be better to say that trust isn?t enough. The problem is a lack of connection between trust and the creative imagination. It?s what Beth Fernholt and her pals have sent to the New Yorker.? ? Henry ? ? On Sep 27, 2019, at 6:40 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: ? Thanks, Huw. The interconnectedness of the "four concepts," I agree, they imply each other, but nonetheless, they remain distinct insights. Just because you get one, you don't necessarily get the others. Hegel uses the expression "true concept" only rarely. Generally, he simply uses the word "concept," and uses a variety of other terms like "mere conception" or "representation" or "category" to indicate something short of a concept, properly so called, but there is no strict categorisation for Hegel. Hegel is not talking about Psychology, let alone child psychology. Like with Vygotsky, all thought-forms (or forms of activity) are just phases (or stages) in the development of a concept. Reading your message, I think I am using the term "true concept" in much the same way you are. (This is not relevant to my article, but I distinguish "true concept" from "actual concept." All the various forms of "complexive thinking" fall short, so to speak, of "true concepts," and further development takes an abstract concept, such as learnt in lecture 101 of a topic, to an "actual concept". But that is not relevant here. Hegel barely touches on these issues.) I don't agree with your specific categories, but yes, for Vygotsky, chapters 4, 5 and 6 are all talking about concepts in a developmental sense. There are about 10 distinct stages for Vygotsky. And they are not equivalent to any series of stages identified by Hegel. Vgotsky's "stages" were drawn from a specific experiment with children; Hegel's Logic is cast somewhat differently (the Logic is not a series of stages) and has a domain much larger than Psychology. The experienced doctor does not use what I would call "formal concepts" in her work, which are what I would call the concepts they learnt in Diagnostics 101 when they were a student. After 20 years of experience, these formal concepts have accrued practical life experience, and remain true concepts, but are no longer "formal." Of course, the student was not taught pseudoconcepts in Diagnostics 101. But all this is nothing to do with the article in question. Hegel and Vygotsky are talking about different things, but even in terms of the subject matter, but especially in terms of the conceptual form, there is more Hegel in "Thinking and Speech" than initially meets the eye. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 27/09/2019 4:32 pm, Huw Lloyd wrote: The "four concepts", for me, are four aspects of one understanding -- they imply each other. ? Quoting this passage: "The ?abstract generality? referred to above by Hegel, Vygotsky aptly called a ?pseudoconcept? - a form of abstract generalization, uniting objects by shared common features, which resembles conceptual thinking because, within a limited domain ofexperience, they subsume the same objects and situations as the true concept indicated by the same word. The pseudoconcept is not the exclusive achievement of the child. In our everyday lives, our thinking frequently occurs in pseudoconcepts. From the perspective of dialectical logic, the concepts that we find in our living speech are not concepts in the true sense of the word. They are actually general representations of things. There is no doubt, however, that these representations are a transitional stage between complexes or pseudoconcepts and true concepts. (Vygotsky, 1934/1987, p. 155)" ? My impression from your text, Andy, is that you are misreading Vygotsky's "Thinking and Speech". Implicit LSV's whole text of vol. 1 is an appreciation for different kinds of conception (3 levels: pseudo, formal, and dialectical), but the terminology of "concept" is only applied to the formal concept, i.e. where Vygotsky writes "concept" one can read "formal concept". ? In vol. 1, the?analysis of the trajectory of the thought of the child is towards a growing achievement of employing formal concepts. These formal concepts are only called "true concepts" (not to be confused with Hegel's true concept) in relation to the pseudo (fake or untrue) formal concepts. The pseudo concepts pertain to a form of cognition that is considered by Vygotsky (quite sensibly) to precede the concepts of formal logic.? This is quite obvious to any thorough-going psychological reading of the text. ? However, within the frame of analysis of the text there is another form of conception which is Vygotsky's approach towards a dialectical understanding. None of Vygotsky's utterances about dialectics (in this volume) should be conflated with the "true concept" which he is using as a short-hand for the "true formal concept", similarly none of Vygotsky's utterances about "pseudo concepts" should be confused with formal concepts. ? I hope that helps, Huw ? ? ? ? ? ? On Sat, 21 Sep 2019 at 06:37, Andy Blunden wrote: I'd dearly like to get some discussion going on this: It will be shown that at least four foundational concepts of Cultural Historical Activity Theory were previously formulated by Hegel, viz., (1) the unit of analysis as a key concept for analytic-synthetic cognition, (2) the centrality of artifact-mediated actions, (3) the definitive distinction between goal and motive in activities, and (4) the distinction between a true concept and a pseudoconcept. https://www.academia.edu/s/7d70db6eb3/the-hegelian-sources-of-cultural-historical-activity-theory Andy -- Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page ? -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu? http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson ? -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu? http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson ? -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu? http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson ? -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu? http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.Assistant ProfessorDepartment of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball TowerBrigham Young UniversityProvo, UT 84602WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu? http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191001/46be1d6b/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Oct 1 05:08:27 2019 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 22:08:27 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science In-Reply-To: <607799137.2355993.1569924251342@mail.yahoo.com> References: <432CB640-45AE-4B28-A26B-D5457C4FCBCB@ils.uio.no> <0e5052e6-efcc-1318-442e-684be270050d@marxists.org> <71AB4B22-A219-46F1-8733-BDC4D9D12A0A@uio.no> <602A54D2-4B1D-4BDC-B865-0F8AC2BB2DC8@uio.no> <607799137.2355993.1569924251342@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <252c6775-1ebb-d822-bbea-7d1ecc648d4a@marxists.org> Haydi, Marx /also/ said in the Rules of International Workingmen?s Association: "That all efforts aiming at the great end hitherto failed from the want of *solidarity *between the manifold divisions of labor in each country, and from the absence of a fraternal bond of union between the working classes of different countries" and the Rules of International Workingmen?s Association began with the maxim: ?the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes *themselves*.? In my opinion, these two statements point to the foundations of socialist ethics: self-emancipation and solidarity. For his own reasons, writing in the 1860s, Marx chose not to frame these principles as Ethical. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/10/2019 8:04 pm, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > > Dear Greg , Alfredo-- > > It was said that the thread has come to be too tiresome > but still it goes on and I?ve not read to the end yet. > > In the past we have discussed this point. > > This is Alfredo : > > Thanks Greg; I did not think you suggested capitalism is > ?ethical?, but I was questioning the notion that > capitalism was a framework for ethical evaluation. I of > course see it is a context within which all sorts of > practices emerge, but that it itself provides an ethical > framework crashes with my preconceptions of what ethics > means. I think I need someone to help us clarify what > ?ethics? means. > And this is Greg : > > ?to my mind, capitalism is unethical and that it provides > a rather unfortunate grounding for ethics and morality. > (and you'll notice that this leads me directly to what I > was chiding you for - an argument about the false > consciousness of the proponents (pushers?) of capitalism!!). > > Cristopher J Arthur is a Hegelian. Let?s ponder over what > he says : > > [[Moreover, besides political mediations, moral > imperatives also have a place. > If workers are class-conscious this by no means abolishes > individual interests. Game theory has shown it is often > impossible *to reduce common action > for common benefit to the rational self-interest of each > individual taken > separately*. ?Selling out? often presents itself as a > preferred option. Hence > the need for mediation by ***proletarian morality > expressed in such terms as > ?solidarity?, ?class loyalty?, ?revolutionary duty?; and > the inculcation of contempt for ratebusters, scabs, > ?blue-eyed boys? and the like***. The contradiction > between class interest and individual interest is a lived > experience that cannot be abolished in thought but only as > a result of practical action to change > the situation. > Marx** worried** that morality, as an ideological > superstructure, was *a bourgeois ambush* tying the workers > to a ***fake universal***; he wanted to rely on > class interest alone. It is interesting that when he *was > forced* to include in the > Rules of the WMIA phrases about ?duty?, ?right? ?truth?, > ?justice?, and ?morality?,11 he wrote to Engels that they > were so placed as to *?do no harm?*.12 When > this ?place? is examined the context is in the first > instance that of members? > *?conduct towards each other?*; and in any event it is > clear that such notions > are *subordinate to the struggle against class rule*. Marx > here as elsewhere > failed to grasp that the necessary loyalty of individuals > to their class cannot > be reduced to a purely prudential calculation?Marx did not > commit such a reduction What he did was tactical And as he > did it in a way that it did no HARM then it was like he > did not do it altogether--; the individual?s identity as a > class warrior has to be socially constituted, and > instrumental in this is the > > inculcation of the **appropriate values.**--that the Moral > Values as habitual un-reflected ungrounded fake universals > of no worked out ?particularity? to be weighed as against > bounded ?Universality? as a WHOLE are beyond CONCRETE > COGNITION.]] > > The markings well say what Ethics means at least in > Capitalism as Marx depicts it. I fear to be too ?too > tiresome?. > > Just it remains for dear Greg to object that we are again > glancing at the point extraneously , that is we have not > installed our VISION DEVICE within Capitalism. And it?s up > to us to say that when the ?Internal value? has reached us > as Unethical/Counter-ethical , then it?s not just > impermissible for us to advocate the Evil but to make a > haste to uproot it. > > > [Marx?s Verbatim :I saw that it was impossible to make > anything out of the stuff. In order to justify the > extremely strange way in which I intended to present the > "sentiment" already "voted for", I wrote an Address to the > Working Classes (which was not in the original plan: a > sort of review of the adventures of the working classes > since 1845); on the pretext that everything material was > included in the address and that we ought not to repeat > the same things three times over, I altered the whole > preamble, threw out the declaration of principles, and > finally replaced the 40 rules with 10. Insofar as > international politics come into the address, I speak of > countries, not of nationalities, and denounce Russia, not > the lesser nations. My proposals were all accepted by the > subcommittee. Only I was obliged to insert two phrases > about "duty" and "right" into the preamble to the > statutes, ditto "truth, morality, and justice", but these > are placed in such a way that they can do no harm.] > > [For these reasons ? > > The International Working Men's Association has been founded. > > It declares: > > That all societies and individuals adhering to it will > acknowledge truth, justice, and morality as the basis of > their conduct toward each other and toward all men, > without regard to color, creed, or nationality;?] > > > > On Monday, September 30, 2019, 09:34:04 AM GMT+3:30, > Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > > Thanks Greg; I did not think you suggested capitalism is > ?ethical?, but I was questioning the notion that > capitalism was a framework for ethical evaluation. I of > course see it is a context within which all sorts of > practices emerge, but that it itself provides an ethical > framework crashes with my preconceptions of what ethics > means. I think I need someone to help us clarify what > ?ethics? means. > Alfredo > > On 30 Sep 2019, at 07:44, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > >> Alfredo, >> >> I appreciate your generosity in reading/responding as >> well as your forthrightness (without which, conversation >> can feel a bit empty). And I entirely respect and >> appreciate your position. >> >> One point of clarification: on the relativism front I was >> simply making a statement of fact, capitalism provides a >> framework that people use to make ethical judgments. I >> wasn't suggesting that capitalism is ethical. I might add >> that as an anthropologist I believe that it is possible >> to judge beliefs and practices but that this can only be >> done after a deep understanding of the entire context of >> those beliefs and practices. I've had a lot of experience >> with capitalism and I'm pretty comfortable saying that, >> to my mind, capitalism is unethical and that it provides >> a rather unfortunate grounding for ethics and morality. >> (and you'll notice that this leads me directly to what I >> was chiding you for - an argument about the false >> consciousness of the proponents (pushers?) of capitalism!!). >> >> And I agree with Andy about the important contributions >> of others in this thread but I'm lacking the bandwidth to >> adequately acknowledge/engage right now. >> >> And still wondering if we could hear more from/about >> Vaedboncoeur and her work? Maybe there is a publication >> that someone could?point us to? >> Beth Ferholt's work seems quite relevant as well. >> (but perhaps this thread is a bit too tiresome?). >> >> Very best, >> greg >> >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 5:11 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil >> > wrote: >> >> Thanks a lot Greg for your help and care, I really >> appreciate it and it is very helpful. And thanks also >> for emphasizing the importance of bridging across >> positions and trying to understand the phenomenon not >> only from our (often privileged) point of view, but >> also from that of others, even those with opposed >> belief systems. I truly appreciate that. >> >> Let me try to follow the signposts you nicely >> identified: >> >> 1. I see that my language lent itself to that >> reading. I believe the root of our differences is >> that I am trying to discuss denialism as a given >> historical practice, and not as something >> individual. At the individual level, both deniers >> and people who accept the science do so out of >> trust; just as you say, the one can argue that >> the other is the one who is wrong or trusting the >> wrong people. From the socio-historical >> perspective, however, neither position is the >> ?free? choice of individuals who came upon the >> thought and believed it. Climate science >> communication and dissemination has its channels >> and ways to reach the public, just as climate >> science denial does. It so happens, though, that >> climate science denial was born of an explicit >> attempt to generate doubt in people, to confuse >> them and manipulate them for profit. This is well >> documented in the links I shared earlier. If both >> science and science denial have a function of >> persuading, and we cannot differentiate between >> the two, then I think we have a big problem. What >> I am saying is that we should be able to >> differentiate between the two. I am not saying >> people who believe climate change is real is more >> conscious or better conscious or any other >> privilege; they may be acting out of pure habit >> and submission. I am saying, though, that if >> people would engage in critical inquiry and >> question the history of their reasoning habits, >> then they may be better equipped to decide; both >> sides. It so happens, however, that, if we all >> would engage in such exercise, one side would >> find out they are (involuntarily perhaps) >> supporting actions that really harm people. In >> today?s modern societies, not finding out is >> truly an exercise of faith. >> 2. You invite us to try to understand what the >> frameworks are within which people may see >> choosing to deny climate science as ?good? or the >> ?right? thing to do, and I applaud and support >> that goal. I think that framework is the sort of >> sociocultural object I am trying to discuss. Yet, >> by the same token, I?d invite anyone to consider >> the views and positions of those who are already >> suffering the consequences of global warming, and >> I wonder what justifies ignoring their suffering. >> This can be extrapolated to a myriad practices in >> which all of we engage, from buying phones to >> going to the toilette; we live by the suffering >> of others. And when we do so, we are wrong, we >> are doing wrong. That?s my view, but perhaps I am >> wrong. I believe human rights are not partisan, >> or negotiable; again, my leap of trust. >> 3. Thanks for sharing your experience with your >> acquainted. I?d like to clarify that, when using >> the language of criminality, I refer to the >> people directly involved in making conscious >> decisions, and having recurred to science, to >> then not just ignore the science but also present >> it wrongly, making it possible for denial >> practices to thrive. People like the one you >> describe are having to deal with what it?s been >> left for them, and I totally empathize. >> >> Finally, you explicitly state that you do not want to >> relativize, but then you also say that ?If capitalism >> is the framework for evaluating ethical behavior, >> then there is every reason to believe that EM execs >> are acting ethically?. To me, the suggestion that >> capitalism can be an ethical framework suggests a >> treatment of ethics as fundamentally arbitrary >> (meaning that any framework can be defined to >> evaluate ethical behavior). I am not sure I am ready >> to accept that assertion. >> >> Thanks! >> Alfredo >> >> *From: *> > on behalf >> of Greg Thompson > > >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> > > >> *Date: *Sunday, 29 September 2019 at 23:44 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> > > >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science >> >> Alfredo, >> >> Thanks for reminding me of the importance of my own >> humility with respect to the positions of others. >> (conclusion jumping is an unfortunate consequence of >> trying to respond quickly enough on a listserve to >> remain relevant - or at least that's a challenge for >> me). >> >> Thank you for clarifying that your position is not to >> dehumanize. I appreciate that. >> >> Let me see if I can recover what it was from your >> prior email that provoked my response and I'll do my >> best to stick more closely to your words >> (respectfully) and what I didn't quite understand. >> >> Here is the quote from your post: "I agree on the >> difficulties, but I would like to emphasize that >> being on the right or the wrong side in issues of >> climate change in today?s Global societies is a >> matter of having fallen pray to self-interested >> manipulation by others, or of being yourself one >> engaged in manipulating others for your own." >> >> This language of "fallen pray..." or, worse, >> "being... engaged in manipulating others..." were >> both phrases that I read to mean that this is >> something that THEY do and something that WE don't do >> (and ditto for the psychological studies that explain >> "their" behavior in terms of deterministic >> psychological principles - rather than as agentive >> humans (like us?)). But it seems that maybe I've >> misread you? >> >> I think calling them "criminals" is a little better >> but doesn't capture the systemic nature of what they >> are doing or why it is that many people would say >> that they are doing good. Or to put it another way, >> I'd like to better understand the minds and life >> situations and experiences of these criminals - what >> are the frameworks within which their actions make >> sense as good and right and just and true. The point >> is not to relativize but to understand (this is the >> anthropologists' task). >> >> Relatedly, I may have mistakenly assumed that your >> question was somewhat tongue-in-cheek: "the motives >> of these corporations never were the ?feel that this >> is the ethically good and right position for >> humanity?.?Or do we?" >> >> I think that this is a real question and for my two >> cents I would suggest that the answers to this >> question are important?to the work of climate justice. >> >> As I mentioned in the p.s. above, I recently had the >> opportunity to push the ExxonMobil recruiter on these >> issues. He's been working for them for about 7 years. >> He was conflicted when first joining ExxonMobil >> (hereafter EM) but I could sense how hard he >> continues to work to justify working for EM. A brief >> summary of his justification (and I took this to be >> EM's justification) could be summed up with: "just as >> there was an iron age in which innovations were >> essential to the development of human beings, we are >> now in the oil age". He acknowledged that oil is a >> problem but then pointed out that everything in the >> room was enabled by oil - whether because it >> was?transported there by gas-powered vehicles or >> because of the massive amounts of plastic, rubber, >> and other products that are made from oil and are >> everywhere in our everyday lives. His argument was >> that this is the way it is right now. Our lives (and >> our current "progress") are entirely dependent upon >> oil. And he clarified that EM's position is to find >> ways to transition away from oil dependency but >> remain as central to the world as they are now. He >> saw his position as one in which he could be on the >> "inside" and help to enable this transition and change. >> >> Now my point is NOT that he is right in all of what >> he says (or that EM is not a central cause of the >> problem that he seems not to be able to see). At the >> end of the day, I personally concluded that he is an >> oil apologist (and I did my best to point this out to >> him and to the potential ethical ironies of his >> work). Rather, my point is that I took him at his >> word that he genuinely believes what he says and that >> he did not "fall prey" to the manipulations of others >> and is not himself manipulating others to further his >> own interests. He does feel conflicted about his work >> but at the end of the day he feels that he is doing >> what is ethically good and right for humanity. >> >> And to take this one step further, I think that in >> order to evaluate whether something is ethical or >> not, we need some kind of framework within which to >> make such a determination. If capitalism is the >> framework for evaluating ethical behavior, then there >> is every reason to believe that EM execs are acting >> ethically. >> >> Let me know where I've misread you and/or >> misunderstood you. >> >> With apologies, >> >> greg >> >> On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 9:59 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil >> > wrote: >> >> Thanks Greg, for reminding us of the importance >> of humility. Please, let us all realize of the >> humanity of deniers, as much as those of anyone >> else. But no, I am not saying that they are the >> ones who live in a world of false consciousness. >> Please, if I wrote that somewhere, help me >> correct it, cause I did not intend to write so. I >> never said Exxon staff were not human, Greg. I >> said they are criminals. I am not alone in this: >> https://theintercept.com/2019/09/24/climate-justice-ecocide-humanity-crime/ >> >> I am more than happy to disagree, but your >> misrepresentation of what I just wrote went >> beyond what I can explain or understand in the >> language that I use. So, I think I?ll need help >> to find common ground and continue dialogue. >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: *> > on >> behalf of Greg Thompson >> > > >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> > > >> *Date: *Sunday, 29 September 2019 at 17:45 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> > > >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science >> >> Alfredo, >> >> You point to an important possibility that I >> would not want to rule out, the possibility of >> false consciousness. Yet, I'd like to also just >> point to the fact that one must undertake such a >> claim with the utmost of humility since "they" >> are making precisely the same kind of claim about >> you. >> >> You say that THEY are the ones who live in a >> world of false consciousness, while WE are the >> ones who are awake to the reality of things. This >> is precisely what climate deniers say of you!!! >> They say that you are caught up in the >> pseudo-science of climate change that works to >> further the introduce governmental control over >> our daily lives (an outcome that for them is just >> as monstrous as what you describe). >> >> We can stand and shout and say that we are right >> and they are wrong, but we have to recognize that >> they are doing the same thing. We could try and >> kill them off since we are convinced that they >> are murders, but they might do the same. To me it >> seems, there is still something more that is needed. >> >> Another way to go about this is to seek some kind >> of true understanding across these divides. >> Rather than dismissing "them" as a bunch of >> manipulators who are just trying to get theirs or >> a bunch of dupes who are going along with a line >> that they've been sold, why not try to engage >> "them" as humans just like "we" are humans? How >> many climate change deniers have we actually >> talked to and treated as humans? (but, you >> object, they aren't human!) >> >> I don't think that this needs to be ALL of the >> work of climate justice, but I do think that it >> should be part of this work. And it happens to be >> one that is sorely lacking in many approaches. >> (and just to be clear, I'm not saying that it is >> lacking in yours, Alfredo, I'm just posing the >> question, perhaps you know and have had >> conversation with many deniers and realize their >> humanity). >> >> -greg >> >> p.s., I spoke with a recruiter for ExxonMobil >> this past week and he noted that their new CEO >> stated unequivocally that man-made climate change >> is real and that oil is a major cause of it. >> >> On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 8:39 AM Alfredo Jornet >> Gil > > wrote: >> >> Andy, >> >> I see and Greg?s point. I can see that not >> everyone denying climate change is >> necessarily a ?bad? person or the evil in and >> of themselves. >> >> However, I cannot agree with the statement >> that ?everyone acts because they think it >> right to do so?. I?ve done (and keep doing) >> enough stupid (and wrong!) things in my life >> to be convinced of the falsehood of that >> statement. That statement, in my view, would >> ONLY apply to (a) instances in which people >> indeed ponder/consider what they are about to >> do before they do it, and (b) the nature of >> their pondering is in fact ethical. >> >> Should we refer to Exxon corporate >> decision-makers who initiated misinformation >> campaigns to cast doubt on climate science as >> psychopaths (as per your definition)? Would >> that be fair to people with actual >> pathologies? I?d rather call them criminals. >> >> You seem to assume (or I misread you as >> assuming) that all actions are taken based on >> a pondering on what is right or wrong, even >> when that pondering has not taken place. >> First, I don?t think we always act based on >> decision-making. Second, not every >> decision-making or pondering may consider >> ethical dimensions of right or wrong. I >> invite you to consider how many people among >> those who deny the climate science has >> actually gone through an ethical pondering >> when they ?choose? to deny the science. My >> sense is that most deniers do not ?choose,? >> but rather enact a position that is, in the >> metaphorical terms that the author of the >> article that Anne-Nelly has shared uses, in >> the air they breath within their communities. >> I am of the view that exercising ethics, just >> as exercising science denial in the 21st >> century, is engaging in a quite definite >> historical practice that has its background, >> resources, and patterns or habits. I think >> that if we exercised (practiced) more of >> ethics, science denial would be less of a >> ?right? choice. That is, decision-making is a >> sociocultural endeavor, not something an >> individual comes up with alone. Sometimes we >> cannot choose how we feel or react, but we >> can choose who we get together to, the types >> of cultures within which we want to generate >> habits of action/mind. >> >> We cannot de-politicize science, for it is >> only in political contexts that science comes >> to effect lives outside of the laboratory. >> But we can generate cultures of critical >> engagement, which I think would bring us >> closer to your option (3) at the end of your >> e-mail when you ponder whether/how to >> disentangle bipartisanism and scientific >> literacy. I don?t think then relativism (that >> you act ethically or not depending on what >> you think it?s right or not, independently of >> whether great amounts of suffering happen >> because of your actions) is what would >> thrive. Rather, I believe (and hope!) >> **humanity** would thrive, for it would >> always ponder the question Dewey posed when >> considering why we should prefer democracy >> over any other forms of political >> organization, such as fascism: >> >> ?Can we find any reason that does not >> ultimately come down to the belief that >> democratic social arrangements promote a >> better quality of human experience, one which >> is more widely accessible and enjoyed, than >> do nondemocratic and antidemocratic forms of >> social life? Does not the principle of regard >> for individual freedom and for decency and >> kindliness of human relations come back in >> the end to the conviction that these things >> are tributary to a higher quality of >> experience on the part of a greater number >> than are methods of repression and coercion >> or force?? (Dewey, Experience and Education, >> chapter 3). >> >> Please, help me see how Exxon leaders >> considered any of these when they chose to >> deny the science, and thought it was right. I >> know voters did not ?choose? in the same way >> (Exxon staff trusted the science, indeed!). >> But it is back there where you can find an >> explanation for climate change denial today; >> it is in the cultural-historical pattern of >> thinking they contributed engineering, along >> with political actors, and not in the >> individual head of the person denying that >> you find the explanation. >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: *> > on >> behalf of Andy Blunden > > >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity" > > >> *Date: *Sunday, 29 September 2019 at 15:28 >> *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> " >> > > >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science >> >> Alfredo, I think Greg's point is basically >> right, that is, everyone acts because they >> think it right to do so. The only exception >> would be true psychopaths. The issue is: >> /why/ does this person believe this is the >> right thing to do and believe that this is >> the person I should trust and that this is >> the truth about the matter? >> >> Take Darwinian Evolution as an example. In >> the USA, this question has been >> "politicised," that is, people either accept >> the science or not according to whether they >> vote Democrat or Republican. There are >> variants on this, and various exceptions, but >> for the largest numbers belief in the Bible >> or belief in the Science textbook are choices >> of being on this side or the other side. This >> is not the case in many other countries where >> Evolution is simply part of the Biology lesson. >> >> In the UK, Anthropogenic climate change is >> not a Party question? either. People believe >> it whether they vote Tory or Labour. Still, >> how much people change their lives, etc., >> does vary, but that varies according to other >> issues; it is not a Party question. >> >> In Australia, Anthropogenic climate change is >> a Party question, even though this year >> right-wing political leaders no longer openly >> scorn climate science, but everyone knows >> this is skin deep. But like in the UK, >> Evolution is not a partisan question and eve >> the right-wing support public health (though >> it was not always so). >> >> The strategic questions, it seems to me are: >> (1) is it possible to break a single issue >> away from the partisan platform, and for >> example, get Republicans to support the >> teaching of Biology and sending their kids to >> science classes with an open mind? Even while >> they still support capital punishment and >> opposed abortion and public health? Or (2) Is >> it possible to lever a person away from their >> partisan position on a scientific or moral >> question, without asking for them to flip >> sides altogether? or (3) Is it easier to work >> for the entire defeat of a Party which >> opposes Science and Humanity (as we see it)? >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> >> On 29/09/2019 8:16 pm, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> Thanks Anne-Nelly, I had not read this >> one. Very telling! __ >> >> Alfredo >> >> >> On 29 Sep 2019, at 10:20, PERRET-CLERMONT >> Anne-Nelly >> > > >> wrote: >> >> Alfredo, >> >> You probably remember ?this very >> interesting report from a journalist : >> >> https://www.dailykos.com/story/2019/6/8/1863530/-A-close-family-member-votes-Republican-Now-I-understand-why-The-core-isn-t-bigotry-It-s-worse >> >> I like to mention it because it >> contributes to illustrate your point, >> shading light on powerful >> micro-mechanisms. >> >> Anne-Nelly >> >> Prof. emer. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont >> >> Institut de psychologie et ?ducation >> Facult? des lettres et sciences humaines >> >> Universit? de Neuch?tel >> >> Espace Tilo-Frey 1 (Anciennement: >> Espace Louis-Agassiz 1) >> >> CH- 2000 Neuch?tel (Suisse) >> >> http://www.unine.ch/ipe/publications/anne_nelly_perret_clermont >> >> A peine sorti de presse: >> https://www.socialinfo.ch/les-livres/38-agir-et-penser-avec-anne-nelly-perret-clermont.html >> >> *De?: >> *> > >> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >> > > >> *R?pondre ??: *"eXtended Mind, >> Culture, Activity" >> > > >> *Date?: *dimanche, 29 septembre 2019 >> ? 09:45 >> *??: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity" > > >> *Cc?: *Vadeboncoeur Jennifer >> > > >> *Objet?: *[Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science >> >> Greg, >> >> Thanks, we are on the same page. But >> you write: ?most climate change >> deniers are such because they feel >> that this is the ethically good and >> right position for humanity?. I agree >> on the difficulties, but I would like >> to emphasize that being on the right >> or the wrong side in issues of >> climate change in today?s Global >> societies is a matter of having >> fallen pray to self-interested >> manipulation by others, or of being >> yourself one engaged in manipulating >> others for your own. >> >> When you pick up a scientific article >> (very unlikely if you are a denier) >> or a press article, and read that the >> Earth is warming due to human >> civilization, and then think, ?nah, >> bullshit?, you most likely are >> inclined to infer that way cause >> that?s a cultural pattern of thinking >> characteristic of a group or >> community you belong to. There are >> out there many psychology studies >> showing the extent to which >> ?opinions? on climate science vary >> not with respect to how much one >> knows or understand, but rather with >> respect to your religious and >> political affiliation (see, for >> example, >> https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate1547 >> ). >> >> My point being that, when you deny >> climate change today, you engage in a >> practice that has a very definite >> historical origin and motive, namely >> the coordinated, systematic actions >> of a given set of fossil fuel >> corporations that, to this date, >> continue lobbying to advance their >> own interests, permeating through >> many spheres of civic life, including >> education: >> >> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/sep/19/shell-and-exxons-secret-1980s-climate-change-warnings >> >> http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Greenpeace_Dealing-in-Doubt-1.pdf?53ea6e >> >> We know that the motives of these >> corporations never were the ?feel >> that this is the ethically good and >> right position for humanity?. Or do we? >> >> Again, educating about (climate) >> **justice** and accountability may be >> crucial to the ?critical? approach >> that has been mentioned in prior >> e-mails. >> >> I too would love seeing Jen V. >> chiming in on these matters. >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: >> *> > >> on behalf of Greg Thompson >> > > >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity" > > >> *Date: *Sunday, 29 September 2019 at >> 04:15 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity" > > >> *Cc: *Jennifer Vadeboncoeur >> > > >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science >> >> Alfredo and Artin, Yes and yes. >> >> Alfredo, yes, I wasn't suggesting >> doing without them, but simply that >> something more is needed perhaps an >> "ethical dimension" is needed >> (recognizing that such a thing is >> truly a hard fought accomplishment - >> right/wrong and good/evil seems so >> obvious from where we stand, but >> others?will see differently; most >> climate change deniers are such >> because they feel that this is the >> ethically good and right position for >> humanity not because they see it as >> an evil and ethically wrong position). >> >> Artin, I wonder if Dr. Vadeboncoeur >> might be willing to chime in?? Sounds >> like a fascinating and important take >> on the issue. Or maybe you could >> point us to a reading? >> >> (and by coincidence, I had the >> delight of dealing with Dr. >> Vadebonceour's work in my data >> analysis class this week via LeCompte >> and Scheunsel's extensive use of her >> work to describe data analysis >> principles - my students found her >> work to be super interesting and very >> helpful for thinking about data >> analysis). >> >> Cheers, >> >> greg >> >> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 9:19 AM >> Goncu, Artin > > wrote: >> >> The varying meanings and >> potential abuses of the >> connection between imagination >> and trust appear to be activity >> specific. This can be seen even >> in the same activity, i.e., trust >> and imagination may be abused.? >> For example, I took pains for >> many years to illustrate that >> children?s construction of >> intersubjectivity in social >> imaginative play requires trust >> in one another. Children make the >> proleptic assumption that their >> potential partners are sincere, >> know something about the topics >> proposed for imaginative play, >> and will participate in the >> negotiations of assumed joint >> imaginative pasts and anticipated >> futures. However, this may not >> always be the case. As Schousboe >> showed, children may abuse play >> to institute their own abusive >> agendas as evidenced in her >> example of two five year old >> girls pretending that actual >> urine in a bottle was soda pop >> ?trying to make a three year old >> girl to drink it. This clearly >> supports exploring how we >> can/should inquire what Alfredo >> calls the third dimension. More >> to the point, how do we teach >> right from wrong in shared >> imagination? Vadeboncoeur has >> been addressing the moral >> dimensions of imagination in her >> recent work. >> >> Artin >> >> Artin Goncu, Ph.D >> >> Professor, Emeritus >> >> University of Illinois at Chicago >> >> www.artingoncu.com/ >> >> >> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> ] >> *On Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil >> *Sent:* Saturday, September 28, >> 2019 9:35 AM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity > > >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and >> Science >> >> Yes, Greg, I agree there is all >> grounds and rights to question >> trust and imagination, but I am >> less inclined to think that we >> can do without them both. So, if >> there is a difference between >> imaginative propaganda aimed at >> confusing the public, and >> imaginative education that grows >> from hope and will for the common >> good, then perhaps we need a >> third element that discerns good >> from evil? Right from wrong? That >> may why, in order for people to >> actually engage in >> transformational action, what >> they need the most is not just to >> understand Climate Change, but >> most importantly, Climate >> Justice. Don?t you think? >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: >> *> > >> on behalf of Greg Thompson >> > > >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, >> Culture, Activity" >> > > >> *Date: *Saturday, 28 September >> 2019 at 16:05 >> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity" >> > > >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Trust and >> Science >> >> Note that there is a great deal >> of trust and imagination going on >> right now in the US. We have the >> most imaginative president we?ve >> had in years. He can imagine his >> way to bigly approval ratings and >> a massive inaugural turnout. He >> imagines that trying to get dirt >> on an opponent is a ?beautiful >> conversation?. And if you watch >> the media these days, he has a >> cadre of others who are doing >> additional imagining for him as >> well - they are imagining what >> the DNC is trying to do to ouster >> this president, they are >> imagining what Joe Biden might >> really have been up to with that >> prosecutor. And what makes >> matters worst is that there is a >> rather large contingent of people >> in the US who trust this cadre of >> imaginative propagandists and who >> trust Trump and believe that they >> are the only ones who have the >> real truth. >> >> So I guess I?m suggesting there >> might be reason to question >> imagination and trust (and this >> all was heightened for me by a >> dip into the imaginative and >> trust-filled land of conservative >> talk radio yesterday - but you >> can find the same message from >> anyone who is a Trump truster - >> including a number of politicians >> who are playing the same game of >> avoiding the facts (no one on >> those talk shows actually >> repeated any of the damning words >> from Trumps phone call) while >> constructing an alternative >> narrative that listeners trust). >> >> Sadly, >> >> Greg >> >> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 5:17 AM >> Alfredo Jornet Gil >> > > wrote: >> >> Henry, all, >> >> Further resonating with Beth >> et al?s letter, and with what >> Henry and Andy just wrote, I >> too think the point at which >> trust and imagination meet is >> key. >> >> A couple of days ago, I >> watched, together with my two >> daughters (10 and 4 years old >> respectively) segments of the >> /Right to a Future /event >> organized by The Intercept >> https://theintercept.com/2019/09/06/greta-thunberg-naomi-klein-climate-change-livestream/, >> where young and not-so-young >> activists and journalists >> discussed visions of 2029 if >> we, today, would lead radical >> change. It was a great chance >> to engage in some >> conversation with my children >> about these issues, specially >> with my older one; about hope >> and about the importance of >> fighting for justice. >> >> At some point in a follow-up >> conversation that we had in >> bed, right before sleep, we >> spoke about the good things >> that we still have with >> respect to nature and >> community, and I?perhaps not >> having considered my >> daughter?s limited awareness >> of the reach of the >> crisis?emphasized that it was >> important to value and enjoy >> those things we have in the >> present, when there is >> uncertainty as to the >> conditions that there will be >> in the near future. My >> daughter, very concerned, >> turned to me and, with what I >> felt was a mix of fair and >> skepticism, said: ?but dad, >> are not people fixing the >> problem already so that >> everything will go well?? >> >> It truly broke my heart. I >> reassured her that we are >> working as hard as we can, >> but invited her not to stop >> reminding everyone that we >> cannot afford stop fighting. >> >> My daughter clearly exhibited >> her (rightful) habit of trust >> that adults address problems, >> that they?ll take care of us, >> that things will end well, or >> at least, that they?ll try >> their best. In terms of >> purely formal scientific >> testing, it turns out that my >> daughter?s hypothesis could >> easily be rejected, as it is >> rather the case that my >> parent?s generation did very >> little to address problems >> they were ?aware? of (another >> discussion is what it is >> meant by ?awareness? in cases >> such as being aware of the >> effects of fossil fuels and >> still accelerating their >> exploitation). Yet, it would >> totally be against the >> interest of science and >> society that my daughter >> loses that trust. For if she >> does, then I fear she will be >> incapable of imagining a >> thriving future to demand and >> fight for. I fear she will >> lose a firm ground for >> agency. Which teaches me that >> the pedagogy that can help in >> this context of crisis is one >> in which basic trust in the >> good faith and orientation >> towards the common good of >> expertise is restored, and >> that the only way to restore >> it is by indeed acting >> accordingly, reclaiming and >> occupying the agency and >> responsibility of making sure >> that younger and older can >> continue creatively imagining >> a future in which things will >> go well at the end. >> >> Alfredo >> >> *From: >> *> > >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> > > >> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, >> Culture, Activity" >> > > >> *Date: *Saturday, 28 >> September 2019 at 04:38 >> *To: >> *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> " >> > > >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Trust and >> Science >> >> Science is based on trust, >> isn't it, Henry. Only a >> handful of people have >> actually measured climate >> change, and then probably >> only one factor. If we have a >> picture of climate change at >> all, for scientists and >> non-scientists alike, it is >> only because we /trust/ the >> institutions of science >> sufficiently. And yet, >> everyone on this list knows >> how wrong these institutions >> can be when it comes to the >> area of our own expertise. So >> "blind trust" is not enough, >> one needs "critical trust" so >> to speak, in order to know >> anything scientifically. Very >> demanding. >> >> Important as trust is, I am >> inclined to think trust and >> its absence are symptoms of >> even more fundamental >> societal characteristics, >> because it is never just a >> question of *how much* trust >> there is in a society, but >> *who* people trust. It seems >> that nowadays people? are >> very erratic about *who *they >> trust about *what *and who >> they do not trust. >> >> Probably the agreement you >> saw between Huw and me was >> probably pretty shaky, but we >> have a commonality in our >> trusted sources, we have >> worked together in the past >> and share basic respect for >> each other and for science. >> Workable agreement. I despair >> over what I see happening in >> the UK now, where MPs >> genuinely fear for their >> lives because of the level of >> hatred and division in the >> community, which is beginning >> to be even worse than what >> Trump has created in the US. >> A total breakdown in trust >> *alongside* tragically >> misplaced trust in a couple >> of utterly cynical criminals! >> The divisions are just as >> sharp here in Oz too, but it >> has not go to that >> frightening level of menace >> it has reached in the UK and US. >> >> Greta Thunberg talks of a >> plural, collective "we" in >> opposition to a singular >> personal "you." She >> brilliantly, in my opinion, >> turns this black-and-white >> condition of the world around >> in a manner which just could >> turn it into its negation. >> Her use of language at the UN >> is reminiscent of Churchill's >> "we fill fight them on the >> beaches ..." speech and >> Martin Luther King's "I have >> a dream" speech. There's >> something for you linguists >> to get your teeth into! >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 28/09/2019 2:42 am, HENRY >> SHONERD wrote: >> >> Andy and Huw, >> >> This is a perfect example >> of what I was talking >> about in the discussion >> of your article on >> Academia: Two >> philosophers having a >> dialog about the same >> pholosophical object, a >> dialog manifesting an >> experience of common >> understanding. In the >> same way that two >> mathematicians might >> agree on a mathematical >> proof. I have to believe >> that you are not bull >> shitting, that you really >> have understood each >> other via your language. >> So, of course this is of >> interest to a linguist, >> even though he/I don?t >> really get the ?proof?. I >> may not understand the >> arguments you are making, >> but I can imagine, based >> on slogging through >> thinking as a lingist, >> what it?s like to get it. >> >> I think this relates to >> the problem in the world >> of a lack of trust in >> scientific expertise, in >> expertise in general. >> Where concpetual thinking >> reigns. So many climate >> deniers. So many >> Brexiters. But can you >> blame them entirely? >> Probably it would be >> better to say that trust >> isn?t enough. The problem >> is a lack of connection >> between trust and the >> creative imagination. >> It?s what Beth Fernholt >> and her pals have sent to >> the New Yorker. >> >> Henry >> >> On Sep 27, 2019, at >> 6:40 AM, Andy Blunden >> > > >> wrote: >> >> Thanks, Huw. >> >> The >> interconnectedness of >> the "four concepts," >> I agree, they imply >> each other, but >> nonetheless, they >> remain distinct >> insights. Just >> because you get one, >> you don't necessarily >> get the others. >> >> Hegel uses the >> expression "true >> concept" only rarely. >> Generally, he simply >> uses the word >> "concept," and uses a >> variety of other >> terms like "mere >> conception" or >> "representation" or >> "category" to >> indicate something >> short of a concept, >> properly so called, >> but there is no >> strict categorisation >> for Hegel. Hegel is >> not talking about >> Psychology, let alone >> child psychology. >> Like with Vygotsky, >> all thought-forms (or >> forms of activity) >> are just phases (or >> stages) in the >> development of a >> concept. Reading your >> message, I think I am >> using the term "true >> concept" in much the >> same way you are. >> >> (This is not relevant >> to my article, but I >> distinguish "true >> concept" from "actual >> concept." All the >> various forms of >> "complexive thinking" >> fall short, so to >> speak, of "true >> concepts," and >> further development >> takes an abstract >> concept, such as >> learnt in lecture 101 >> of a topic, to an >> "actual concept". But >> that is not relevant >> here. Hegel barely >> touches on these issues.) >> >> I don't agree with >> your specific >> categories, but yes, >> for Vygotsky, >> chapters 4, 5 and 6 >> are all talking about >> concepts in a >> developmental sense. >> There are about 10 >> distinct stages for >> Vygotsky. And they >> are not equivalent to >> any series of stages >> identified by Hegel. >> Vgotsky's "stages" >> were drawn from a >> specific experiment >> with children; >> Hegel's Logic is cast >> somewhat differently >> (the Logic is not a >> series of stages) and >> has a domain much >> larger than Psychology. >> >> The experienced >> doctor does not use >> what I would call >> "formal concepts" in >> her work, which are >> what I would call the >> concepts they learnt >> in Diagnostics 101 >> when they were a >> student. After 20 >> years of experience, >> these formal concepts >> have accrued >> practical life >> experience, and >> remain true concepts, >> but are no longer >> "formal." Of course, >> the student was not >> taught pseudoconcepts >> in Diagnostics 101. >> But all this is >> nothing to do with >> the article in question. >> >> Hegel and Vygotsky >> are talking about >> different things, but >> even in terms of the >> subject matter, but >> especially in terms >> of the conceptual >> form, there is more >> Hegel in "Thinking >> and Speech" than >> initially meets the eye. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for Social >> Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> On 27/09/2019 4:32 >> pm, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >> The "four >> concepts", for >> me, are four >> aspects of one >> understanding -- >> they imply each >> other. >> >> Quoting this passage: >> >> >> "The ?abstract >> generality? >> referred to above >> by Hegel, >> Vygotsky aptly >> called a >> ?pseudoconcept? - >> a form of >> abstract >> generalization, >> uniting objects >> by shared common >> features, which >> resembles >> conceptual >> thinking because, >> within a limited >> domain >> ofexperience, >> they subsume the >> same objects and >> situations as the >> true concept >> indicated by the >> same word. >> The pseudoconcept >> is not the >> exclusive >> achievement of >> the child. In our >> everyday lives, >> our thinking >> frequently occurs >> in >> pseudoconcepts. >> From the >> perspective of >> dialectical >> logic, the >> concepts that we >> find in our >> living speech are >> not concepts in >> the true sense of >> the word. They >> are actually >> general >> representations >> of things. There >> is no doubt, >> however, that >> these >> representations >> are a >> transitional >> stage between >> complexes or >> pseudoconcepts >> and true >> concepts. >> (Vygotsky, >> 1934/1987, p. 155)" >> >> My impression >> from your text, >> Andy, is that you >> are misreading >> Vygotsky's >> "Thinking and >> Speech". Implicit >> LSV's whole text >> of vol. 1 is an >> appreciation for >> different kinds >> of conception (3 >> levels: pseudo, >> formal, and >> dialectical), but >> the terminology >> of "concept" is >> only applied to >> the formal >> concept, i.e. >> where Vygotsky >> writes "concept" >> one can read >> "formal concept". >> >> In vol. 1, >> the?analysis of >> the trajectory of >> the thought of >> the child is >> towards a growing >> achievement of >> employing formal >> concepts. These >> formal concepts >> are only called >> "true concepts" >> (not to be >> confused with >> Hegel's true >> concept) in >> relation to the >> pseudo (fake or >> untrue) formal >> concepts. The >> pseudo concepts >> pertain to a form >> of cognition that >> is considered by >> Vygotsky (quite >> sensibly) to >> precede the >> concepts of >> formal logic. >> This is quite >> obvious to any >> thorough-going >> psychological >> reading of the text. >> >> However, within >> the frame of >> analysis of the >> text there is >> another form of >> conception which >> is Vygotsky's >> approach towards >> a dialectical >> understanding. >> None of >> Vygotsky's >> utterances about >> dialectics (in >> this volume) >> should be >> conflated with >> the "true >> concept" which he >> is using as a >> short-hand for >> the "true formal >> concept", >> similarly none of >> Vygotsky's >> utterances about >> "pseudo concepts" >> should be >> confused with >> formal concepts. >> >> I hope that helps, >> >> Huw >> >> On Sat, 21 Sep >> 2019 at 06:37, >> Andy Blunden >> > > >> wrote: >> >> I'd dearly >> like to get >> some >> discussion >> going on this: >> >> It will >> be shown >> that at >> least >> four >> foundational >> concepts >> of >> Cultural >> Historical >> Activity >> Theory >> were >> previously >> formulated >> by Hegel, >> viz., (1) >> the unit >> of >> analysis >> as a key >> concept >> for >> analytic-synthetic >> cognition, >> (2) the >> centrality >> of >> artifact-mediated >> actions, >> (3) the >> definitive >> distinction >> between >> goal and >> motive in >> activities, >> and (4) >> the >> distinction >> between a >> true >> concept >> and a >> pseudoconcept. >> >> https://www.academia.edu/s/7d70db6eb3/the-hegelian-sources-of-cultural-historical-activity-theory >> >> Andy >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Hegel for >> Social >> Movements >> >> Home Page >> >> >> -- >> >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of Anthropology >> >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> >> Brigham Young University >> >> Provo, UT 84602 >> >> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu >> >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> -- >> >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of Anthropology >> >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> >> Brigham Young University >> >> Provo, UT 84602 >> >> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu >> >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> -- >> >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of Anthropology >> >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> >> Brigham Young University >> >> Provo, UT 84602 >> >> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu >> >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> -- >> >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of Anthropology >> >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> >> Brigham Young University >> >> Provo, UT 84602 >> >> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu >> >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu >> >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191001/6c89135c/attachment.html From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Tue Oct 1 10:14:15 2019 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 17:14:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science In-Reply-To: <252c6775-1ebb-d822-bbea-7d1ecc648d4a@marxists.org> References: <432CB640-45AE-4B28-A26B-D5457C4FCBCB@ils.uio.no> <0e5052e6-efcc-1318-442e-684be270050d@marxists.org> <71AB4B22-A219-46F1-8733-BDC4D9D12A0A@uio.no> <602A54D2-4B1D-4BDC-B865-0F8AC2BB2DC8@uio.no> <607799137.2355993.1569924251342@mail.yahoo.com> <252c6775-1ebb-d822-bbea-7d1ecc648d4a@marxists.org> Message-ID: <293724463.2812247.1569950055574@mail.yahoo.com> Andy,1. Later in reading other posts , I got what I should have gotten from Greg's response to your message. That post and many other posts from him in the past makes us understand what he thinks of Marx. I can guess Alfredo also learnt from him how close they've been towards each other in unanimity and away from putative disagreement.? 2. This bold type gives me nothing of an obligatory return to MORALITY as Marx stated. On the contrary , they give me stronger clues as to the impermissibility of putting any and every concept under the aegis of MORALITY. Yes , in every community and in every era there are "appropriate values" which the societal folk take as their norms of conduct and inherent principles but not weighed against some external ever trustworthy criteria "fake universals" as Moral Codes.? 3. And this to the same Tone : Marx :?Undoubtedly,? it will be said, ?religious, moral, philosophical, and juridical ideas have been modified in the course of historical development. But religion, morality, philosophy, political science, and law, constantly survived this change.? ?There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.? What does this accusation reduce itself to? The history of all past society has consisted in the development of class antagonisms, antagonisms that assumed different forms at different epochs. But whatever form they may have taken, one fact is common to all past ages, viz., the exploitation of one part of society by the other. No wonder, then, *that the social consciousness of past ages, **despite all the multiplicity and variety it displays**, **moves within certain common forms, or general ideas, which cannot completely vanish except with the total disappearance of class antagonisms**. The Communist revolution is the most radical rupture with traditional property relations; no wonder that its development involved the most radical rupture with traditional ideas. All I said amounts to Morality not being a Marxian Doctrinaire as astoundingly expressed in the previous post.? The other time you brought up Lenin's piece (to the demand of our Turk colleague) as displaying Our Morality=Our Commitment to eradicate exploitation. How can we subsume Eradication of Exploitation (and many other appropriate specific? temporally and spatially/locally-laden?values under the general term Morality? And this ends our contention! Regards?Haydi On Tuesday, October 1, 2019, 03:42:15 PM GMT+3:30, Andy Blunden wrote: Haydi, Marx also said in the Rules of International Workingmen?s Association: "That all efforts aiming at the great end hitherto failed from the want of solidarity between the manifold divisions of labor in each country, and from the absence of a fraternal bond of union between the working classes of different countries" and the Rules of International Workingmen?s Association began with the maxim: ?the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves.? In my opinion, these two statements point to the foundations of socialist ethics: self-emancipation and solidarity. For his own reasons, writing in the 1860s, Marx chose not to frame these principles as Ethical. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 1/10/2019 8:04 pm, Haydi Zulfei wrote: Dear Greg , Alfredo-- It was said that the thread has come to be too tiresome but still it goes on and I?ve not read to the end yet. In the past we have discussed this point. ? This is Alfredo : Thanks Greg; I did not think you suggested capitalism is ?ethical?, but I was questioning the notion that capitalism was a framework for ethical evaluation. I of course see it is a context within which all sorts of practices emerge, but that it itself provides an ethical framework crashes with my preconceptions of what ethics means. I think I need someone to help us clarify what ?ethics? means.? And this is Greg :? ?to my mind, capitalism is unethical and that it provides a rather unfortunate grounding for ethics and morality. (and you'll notice that this leads me directly to what I was chiding you for - an argument about the false consciousness of the proponents (pushers?) of capitalism!!). ?Cristopher J Arthur is a Hegelian. Let?s ponder over what he says : [[Moreover, besides political mediations, moral imperatives also have a place. If workers are class-conscious this by no means abolishes individual interests. Game theory has shown it is often impossible *to reduce common action for common benefit to the rational self-interest of each individual taken separately*. ?Selling out? often presents itself as a preferred option. Hence the need for mediation by ***proletarian morality expressed in such terms as ?solidarity?, ?class loyalty?, ?revolutionary duty?; and the inculcation of contempt for ratebusters, scabs, ?blue-eyed boys? and the like***. The contradiction between class interest and individual interest is a lived experience that cannot be abolished in thought but only as a result of practical action to change the situation. Marx** worried** that morality, as an ideological superstructure, was *a bourgeois ambush* tying the workers to a ***fake universal***; he wanted to rely on class interest alone. It is interesting that when he *was forced* to include in the Rules of the WMIA phrases about ?duty?, ?right? ?truth?, ?justice?, and ?morality?,11 he wrote to Engels that they were so placed as to *?do no harm?*.12 When this ?place? is examined the context is in the first instance that of members? *?conduct towards each other?*; and in any event it is clear that such notions are *subordinate to the struggle against class rule*. Marx here as elsewhere failed to grasp that the necessary loyalty of individuals to their class cannot be reduced to a purely prudential calculation?Marx did not commit such a reduction What he did was tactical And as he did it in a way that it did no HARM then it was like he did not do it altogether--; the individual?s identity as a class warrior has to be socially constituted, and instrumental in this is the inculcation of the **appropriate values.**--that the Moral Values as habitual un-reflected ungrounded fake universals of no worked out ?particularity? to be weighed as against bounded ?Universality? as a WHOLE are beyond CONCRETE COGNITION.]] The markings well say what Ethics means at least in Capitalism as Marx depicts it. I fear to be too ?too tiresome?. Just it remains for dear Greg to object that we are again glancing at the point extraneously , that is we have not installed our VISION DEVICE within Capitalism. And it?s up to us to say that when the ?Internal value? has reached us as Unethical/Counter-ethical , then it?s not just impermissible for us to advocate the Evil but to make a haste to uproot it. ?? [Marx?s Verbatim :I saw that it was impossible to make anything out of the stuff. In order to justify the extremely strange way in which I intended to present the "sentiment" already "voted for", I wrote an Address to the Working Classes (which was not in the original plan: a sort of review of the adventures of the working classes since 1845); on the pretext that everything material was included in the address and that we ought not to repeat the same things three times over, I altered the whole preamble, threw out the declaration of principles, and finally replaced the 40 rules with 10. Insofar as international politics come into the address, I speak of countries, not of nationalities, and denounce Russia, not the lesser nations. My proposals were all accepted by the subcommittee. Only I was obliged to insert two phrases about "duty" and "right" into the preamble to the statutes, ditto "truth, morality, and justice", but these are placed in such a way that they can do no harm.] ? [For these reasons ? The International Working Men's Association has been founded. It declares: That all societies and individuals adhering to it will acknowledge truth, justice, and morality as the basis of their conduct toward each other and toward all men, without regard to color, creed, or nationality;?] ? On Monday, September 30, 2019, 09:34:04 AM GMT+3:30, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Thanks Greg; I did not think you suggested capitalism is ?ethical?, but I was questioning the notion that capitalism was a framework for ethical evaluation. I of course see it is a context within which all sorts of practices emerge, but that it itself provides an ethical framework crashes with my preconceptions of what ethics means. I think I need someone to help us clarify what ?ethics? means.? Alfredo? On 30 Sep 2019, at 07:44, Greg Thompson wrote: Alfredo,? I appreciate your generosity in reading/responding as well as your forthrightness (without which, conversation can feel a bit empty). And I entirely respect and appreciate your position.? One point of clarification: on the relativism front I was simply making a statement of fact, capitalism provides a framework that people use to make ethical judgments. I wasn't suggesting that capitalism is ethical. I might add that as an anthropologist I believe that it is possible to judge beliefs and practices but that this can only be done after a deep understanding of the entire context of those beliefs and practices. I've had a lot of experience with capitalism and I'm pretty comfortable saying that, to my mind, capitalism is unethical and that it provides a rather unfortunate grounding for ethics and morality. (and you'll notice that this leads me directly to what I was chiding you for - an argument about the false consciousness of the proponents (pushers?) of capitalism!!). And I agree with Andy about the important contributions of others in this thread but I'm lacking the bandwidth to adequately acknowledge/engage right now. And still wondering if we could hear more from/about Vaedboncoeur and her work? Maybe there is a publication that someone could?point us to?? Beth Ferholt's work seems quite relevant as well.? (but perhaps this thread is a bit too tiresome?). Very best, greg On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 5:11 PM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Thanks a lot Greg for your help and care, I really appreciate it and it is very helpful. And thanks also for emphasizing the importance of bridging across positions and trying to understand the phenomenon not only from our (often privileged) point of view, but also from that of others, even those with opposed belief systems. I truly appreciate that. ? Let me try to follow the signposts you nicely identified: - I see that my language lent itself to that reading. I believe the root of our differences is that I am trying to discuss denialism as a given historical practice, and not as something individual. At the individual level, both deniers and people who accept the science do so out of trust; just as you say, the one can argue that the other is the one who is wrong or trusting the wrong people. From the socio-historical perspective, however, neither position is the ?free? choice of individuals who came upon the thought and believed it. Climate science communication and dissemination has its channels and ways to reach the public, just as climate science denial does. It so happens, though, that climate science denial was born of an explicit attempt to generate doubt in people, to confuse them and manipulate them for profit. This is well documented in the links I shared earlier. If both science and science denial have a function of persuading, and we cannot differentiate between the two, then I think we have a big problem. What I am saying is that we should be able to differentiate between the two. I am not saying people who believe climate change is real is more conscious or better conscious or any other privilege; they may be acting out of pure habit and submission. I am saying, though, that if people would engage in critical inquiry and question the history of their reasoning habits, then they may be better equipped to decide; both sides. It so happens, however, that, if we all would engage in such exercise, one side would find out they are (involuntarily perhaps) supporting actions that really harm people. In today?s modern societies, not finding out is truly an exercise of faith. - You invite us to try to understand what the frameworks are within which people may see choosing to deny climate science as ?good? or the ?right? thing to do, and I applaud and support that goal. I think that framework is the sort of sociocultural object I am trying to discuss. Yet, by the same token, I?d invite anyone to consider the views and positions of those who are already suffering the consequences of global warming, and I wonder what justifies ignoring their suffering. This can be extrapolated to a myriad practices in which all of we engage, from buying phones to going to the toilette; we live by the suffering of others. And when we do so, we are wrong, we are doing wrong. That?s my view, but perhaps I am wrong. I believe human rights are not partisan, or negotiable; again, my leap of trust. - Thanks for sharing your experience with your acquainted. I?d like to clarify that, when using the language of criminality, I refer to the people directly involved in making conscious decisions, and having recurred to science, to then not just ignore the science but also present it wrongly, making it possible for denial practices to thrive. People like the one you describe are having to deal with what it?s been left for them, and I totally empathize. Finally, you explicitly state that you do not want to relativize, but then you also say that ?If capitalism is the framework for evaluating ethical behavior, then there is every reason to believe that EM execs are acting ethically?. To me, the suggestion that capitalism can be an ethical framework suggests a treatment of ethics as fundamentally arbitrary (meaning that any framework can be defined to evaluate ethical behavior). I am not sure I am ready to accept that assertion. ? Thanks! Alfredo ? ? From: on behalf of Greg Thompson Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 29 September 2019 at 23:44 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Alfredo,? ? Thanks for reminding me of the importance of my own humility with respect to the positions of others. (conclusion jumping is an unfortunate consequence of trying to respond quickly enough on a listserve to remain relevant - or at least that's a challenge for me).? ? Thank you for clarifying that your position is not to dehumanize. I appreciate that. ? Let me see if I can recover what it was from your prior email that provoked my response and I'll do my best to stick more closely to your words (respectfully) and what I didn't quite understand.? ? Here is the quote from your post: "I agree on the difficulties, but I would like to emphasize that being on the right or the wrong side in issues of climate change in today?s Global societies is a matter of having fallen pray to self-interested manipulation by others, or of being yourself one engaged in manipulating others for your own." ? This language of "fallen pray..." or, worse, "being... engaged in manipulating others..." were both phrases that I read to mean that this is something that THEY do and something that WE don't do (and ditto for the psychological studies that explain "their" behavior in terms of deterministic psychological principles - rather than as agentive humans (like us?)). But it seems that maybe I've misread you?? ? I think calling them "criminals" is a little better but doesn't capture the systemic nature of what they are doing or why it is that many people would say that they are doing good. Or to put it another way, I'd like to better understand the minds and life situations and experiences of these criminals - what are the frameworks within which their actions make sense as good and right and just and true. The point is not to relativize but to understand (this is the anthropologists' task). ? Relatedly, I may have mistakenly assumed that your question was somewhat tongue-in-cheek: "the motives of these corporations never were the ?feel that this is the ethically good and right position for humanity?.?Or do we?" ? I think that this is a real question and for my two cents I would suggest that the answers to this question are important?to the work of climate justice.? ? As I mentioned in the p.s. above, I recently had the opportunity to push the ExxonMobil recruiter on these issues. He's been working for them for about 7 years. He was conflicted when first joining ExxonMobil (hereafter EM) but I could sense how hard he continues to work to justify working for EM. A brief summary of his justification (and I took this to be EM's justification) could be summed up with: "just as there was an iron age in which innovations were essential to the development of human beings, we are now in the oil age". He acknowledged that oil is a problem but then pointed out that everything in the room was enabled by oil - whether because it was?transported there by gas-powered vehicles or because of the massive amounts of plastic, rubber, and other products that are made from oil and are everywhere in our everyday lives. His argument was that this is the way it is right now. Our lives (and our current "progress") are entirely dependent upon oil. And he clarified that EM's position is to find ways to transition away from oil dependency but remain as central to the world as they are now. He saw his position as one in which he could be on the "inside" and help to enable this transition and change. ? Now my point is NOT that he is right in all of what he says (or that EM is not a central cause of the problem that he seems not to be able to see). At the end of the day, I personally concluded that he is an oil apologist (and I did my best to point this out to him and to the potential ethical ironies of his work). Rather, my point is that I took him at his word that he genuinely believes what he says and that he did not "fall prey" to the manipulations of others and is not himself manipulating others to further his own interests. He does feel conflicted about his work but at the end of the day he feels that he is doing what is ethically good and right for humanity. ? And to take this one step further, I think that in order to evaluate whether something is ethical or not, we need some kind of framework within which to make such a determination. If capitalism is the framework for evaluating ethical behavior, then there is every reason to believe that EM execs are acting ethically. ? Let me know where I've misread you and/or misunderstood you. With apologies, greg ? On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 9:59 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Thanks Greg, for reminding us of the importance of humility. Please, let us all realize of the humanity of deniers, as much as those of anyone else. But no, I am not saying that they are the ones who live in a world of false consciousness. Please, if I wrote that somewhere, help me correct it, cause I did not intend to write so. I never said Exxon staff were not human, Greg. I said they are criminals. I am not alone in this: https://theintercept.com/2019/09/24/climate-justice-ecocide-humanity-crime/ ? I am more than happy to disagree, but your misrepresentation of what I just wrote went beyond what I can explain or understand in the language that I use. So, I think I?ll need help to find common ground and continue dialogue. ? Alfredo ? ? From: on behalf of Greg Thompson Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 29 September 2019 at 17:45 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Alfredo, ? You point to an important possibility that I would not want to rule out, the possibility of false consciousness. Yet, I'd like to also just point to the fact that one must undertake such a claim with the utmost of humility since "they" are making precisely the same kind of claim about you.? ? You say that THEY are the ones who live in a world of false consciousness, while WE are the ones who are awake to the reality of things. This is precisely what climate deniers say of you!!! They say that you are caught up in the pseudo-science of climate change that works to further the introduce governmental control over our daily lives (an outcome that for them is just as monstrous as what you describe). ? We can stand and shout and say that we are right and they are wrong, but we have to recognize that they are doing the same thing. We could try and kill them off since we are convinced that they are murders, but they might do the same. To me it seems, there is still something more that is needed. ? Another way to go about this is to seek some kind of true understanding across these divides. Rather than dismissing "them" as a bunch of manipulators who are just trying to get theirs or a bunch of dupes who are going along with a line that they've been sold, why not try to engage "them" as humans just like "we" are humans? How many climate change deniers have we actually talked to and treated as humans? (but, you object, they aren't human!) ? I don't think that this needs to be ALL of the work of climate justice, but I do think that it should be part of this work. And it happens to be one that is sorely lacking in many approaches. (and just to be clear, I'm not saying that it is lacking in yours, Alfredo, I'm just posing the question, perhaps you know and have had conversation with many deniers and realize their humanity). ? -greg p.s., I spoke with a recruiter for ExxonMobil this past week and he noted that their new CEO stated unequivocally that man-made climate change is real and that oil is a major cause of it.? ? ? ? ? On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 8:39 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Andy, ? I see and Greg?s point. I can see that not everyone denying climate change is necessarily a ?bad? person or the evil in and of themselves. ? However, I cannot agree with the statement that ?everyone acts because they think it right to do so?. I?ve done (and keep doing) enough stupid (and wrong!) things in my life to be convinced of the falsehood of that statement. That statement, in my view, would ONLY apply to (a) instances in which people indeed ponder/consider what they are about to do before they do it, and (b) the nature of their pondering is in fact ethical. ? Should we refer to Exxon corporate decision-makers who initiated misinformation campaigns to cast doubt on climate science as psychopaths (as per your definition)? Would that be fair to people with actual pathologies? I?d rather call them criminals. ? You seem to assume (or I misread you as assuming) that all actions are taken based on a pondering on what is right or wrong, even when that pondering has not taken place. First, I don?t think we always act based on decision-making. Second, not every decision-making or pondering may consider ethical dimensions of right or wrong. I invite you to consider how many people among those who deny the climate science has actually gone through an ethical pondering when they ?choose? to deny the science. My sense is that most deniers do not ?choose,? but rather enact a position that is, in the metaphorical terms that the author of the article that Anne-Nelly has shared uses, in the air they breath within their communities. I am of the view that exercising ethics, just as exercising science denial in the 21st century, is engaging in a quite definite historical practice that has its background, resources, and patterns or habits. I think that if we exercised (practiced) more of ethics, science denial would be less of a ?right? choice. That is, decision-making is a sociocultural endeavor, not something an individual comes up with alone. Sometimes we cannot choose how we feel or react, but we can choose who we get together to, the types of cultures within which we want to generate habits of action/mind. ? We cannot de-politicize science, for it is only in political contexts that science comes to effect lives outside of the laboratory. But we can generate cultures of critical engagement, which I think would bring us closer to your option (3) at the end of your e-mail when you ponder whether/how to disentangle bipartisanism and scientific literacy. I don?t think then relativism (that you act ethically or not depending on what you think it?s right or not, independently of whether great amounts of suffering happen because of your actions) is what would thrive. Rather, I believe (and hope!) *humanity* would thrive, for it would always ponder the question Dewey posed when considering why we should prefer democracy over any other forms of political organization, such as fascism: ? ?Can we find any reason that does not ultimately come down to the belief that democratic social arrangements promote a better quality of human experience, one which is more widely accessible and enjoyed, than do nondemocratic and antidemocratic forms of social life? Does not the principle of regard for individual freedom and for decency and kindliness of human relations come back in the end to the conviction that these things are tributary to a higher quality of experience on the part of a greater number than are methods of repression and coercion or force?? (Dewey, Experience and Education, chapter 3). ? Please, help me see how Exxon leaders considered any of these when they chose to deny the science, and thought it was right. I know voters did not ?choose? in the same way (Exxon staff trusted the science, indeed!). But it is back there where you can find an explanation for climate change denial today; it is in the cultural-historical pattern of thinking they contributed engineering, along with political actors, and not in the individual head of the person denying that you find the explanation. ? Alfredo From: on behalf of Andy Blunden Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 29 September 2019 at 15:28 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Alfredo, I think Greg's point is basically right, that is, everyone acts because they think it right to do so. The only exception would be true psychopaths. The issue is: why does this person believe this is the right thing to do and believe that this is the person I should trust and that this is the truth about the matter? Take Darwinian Evolution as an example. In the USA, this question has been "politicised," that is, people either accept the science or not according to whether they vote Democrat or Republican. There are variants on this, and various exceptions, but for the largest numbers belief in the Bible or belief in the Science textbook are choices of being on this side or the other side. This is not the case in many other countries where Evolution is simply part of the Biology lesson. In the UK, Anthropogenic climate change is not a Party question? either. People believe it whether they vote Tory or Labour. Still, how much people change their lives, etc., does vary, but that varies according to other issues; it is not a Party question. In Australia, Anthropogenic climate change is a Party question, even though this year right-wing political leaders no longer openly scorn climate science, but everyone knows this is skin deep. But like in the UK, Evolution is not a partisan question and eve the right-wing support public health (though it was not always so). The strategic questions, it seems to me are: (1) is it possible to break a single issue away from the partisan platform, and for example, get Republicans to support the teaching of Biology and sending their kids to science classes with an open mind? Even while they still support capital punishment and opposed abortion and public health? Or (2) Is it possible to lever a person away from their partisan position on a scientific or moral question, without asking for them to flip sides altogether? or (3) Is it easier to work for the entire defeat of a Party which opposes Science and Humanity (as we see it)? Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 29/09/2019 8:16 pm, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Thanks Anne-Nelly, I had not read this one. Very telling! Alfredo? ? On 29 Sep 2019, at 10:20, PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly wrote: Alfredo, You probably remember ?this very interesting report from a journalist :? https://www.dailykos.com/story/2019/6/8/1863530/-A-close-family-member-votes-Republican-Now-I-understand-why-The-core-isn-t-bigotry-It-s-worse I like to mention it because it contributes to illustrate your point, shading light on powerful micro-mechanisms. Anne-Nelly ? Prof. emer. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont Institut de psychologie et ?ducation Facult? des lettres et sciences humaines Universit? de Neuch?tel Espace Tilo-Frey 1 (Anciennement: Espace Louis-Agassiz 1) CH- 2000 Neuch?tel (Suisse) http://www.unine.ch/ipe/publications/anne_nelly_perret_clermont A peine sorti de presse:?https://www.socialinfo.ch/les-livres/38-agir-et-penser-avec-anne-nelly-perret-clermont.html ? ? ? ? ? De?: on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil R?pondre ??: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date?: dimanche, 29 septembre 2019 ? 09:45 ??: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc?: Vadeboncoeur Jennifer Objet?: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Greg, ? Thanks, we are on the same page. But you write: ?most climate change deniers are such because they feel that this is the ethically good and right position for humanity?. I agree on the difficulties, but I would like to emphasize that being on the right or the wrong side in issues of climate change in today?s Global societies is a matter of having fallen pray to self-interested manipulation by others, or of being yourself one engaged in manipulating others for your own. ? When you pick up a scientific article (very unlikely if you are a denier) or a press article, and read that the Earth is warming due to human civilization, and then think, ?nah, bullshit?, you most likely are inclined to infer that way cause that?s a cultural pattern of thinking characteristic of a group or community you belong to. There are out there many psychology studies showing the extent to which ?opinions? on climate science vary not with respect to how much one knows or understand, but rather with respect to your religious and political affiliation (see, for example, https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate1547 ). ? My point being that, when you deny climate change today, you engage in a practice that has a very definite historical origin and motive, namely the coordinated, systematic actions of a given set of fossil fuel corporations that, to this date, continue lobbying to advance their own interests, permeating through many spheres of civic life, including education: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/sep/19/shell-and-exxons-secret-1980s-climate-change-warnings http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Greenpeace_Dealing-in-Doubt-1.pdf?53ea6e ? We know that the motives of these corporations never were the ?feel that this is the ethically good and right position for humanity?. Or do we? Again, educating about (climate) *justice* and accountability may be crucial to the ?critical? approach that has been mentioned in prior e-mails. ? I too would love seeing Jen V. chiming in on these matters. Alfredo ? From: on behalf of Greg Thompson Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, 29 September 2019 at 04:15 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: Jennifer Vadeboncoeur Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Alfredo and Artin, Yes and yes. ? Alfredo, yes, I wasn't suggesting doing without them, but simply that something more is needed perhaps an "ethical dimension" is needed (recognizing that such a thing is truly a hard fought accomplishment - right/wrong and good/evil seems so obvious from where we stand, but others?will see differently; most climate change deniers are such because they feel that this is the ethically good and right position for humanity not because they see it as an evil and ethically wrong position).? ? Artin, I wonder if Dr. Vadeboncoeur might be willing to chime in?? Sounds like a fascinating and important take on the issue. Or maybe you could point us to a reading? ? (and by coincidence, I had the delight of dealing with Dr. Vadebonceour's work in my data analysis class this week via LeCompte and Scheunsel's extensive use of her work to describe data analysis principles - my students found her work to be super interesting and very helpful for thinking about data analysis). ? Cheers, greg ? On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 9:19 AM Goncu, Artin wrote: ? The varying meanings and potential abuses of the connection between imagination and trust appear to be activity specific.? This can be seen even in the same activity, i.e., trust and imagination may be abused.? For example, I took pains for many years to illustrate that children?s construction of intersubjectivity in social imaginative play requires trust in one another.? Children make the proleptic assumption that their potential partners are sincere, know something about the topics proposed for imaginative play, and will participate in the negotiations of assumed joint imaginative pasts and anticipated futures.? However, this may not always be the case.? As Schousboe showed, children may abuse play to institute their own abusive agendas as evidenced in her example of two five year old girls pretending that actual urine in a bottle was soda pop ?trying to make a three year old girl to drink it.? This clearly supports exploring how we can/should inquire what Alfredo calls the third dimension.? More to the point, how do we teach right from wrong in shared imagination?? Vadeboncoeur has been addressing the moral dimensions of imagination in her recent work. ? Artin ? Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor, Emeritus University of Illinois at Chicago www.artingoncu.com/ ? ???????????????? ? From:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2019 9:35 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Yes, Greg, I agree there is all grounds and rights to question trust and imagination, but I am less inclined to think that we can do without them both. So, if there is a difference between imaginative propaganda aimed at confusing the public, and imaginative education that grows from hope and will for the common good, then perhaps we need a third element that discerns good from evil? Right from wrong? That may why, in order for people to actually engage in transformational action, what they need the most is not just to understand Climate Change, but most importantly, Climate Justice. Don?t you think? ? Alfredo ? From: on behalf of Greg Thompson Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Saturday, 28 September 2019 at 16:05 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trust and Science ? Note that there is a great deal of trust and imagination going on right now in the US. We have the most imaginative president we?ve had in years. He can imagine his way to bigly approval ratings and a massive inaugural turnout. He imagines that trying to get dirt on an opponent is a ?beautiful conversation?. And if you watch the media these days, he has a cadre of others who are doing additional imagining for him as well - they are imagining what the DNC is trying to do to ouster this president, they are imagining what Joe Biden might really have been up to with that prosecutor. And what makes matters worst is that there is a rather large contingent of people in the US who trust this cadre of imaginative propagandists and who trust Trump and believe that they are the only ones who have the real truth. So I guess I?m suggesting there might be reason to question imagination and trust (and this all was heightened for me by a dip into the imaginative and trust-filled land of conservative talk radio yesterday - but you can find the same message from anyone who is a Trump truster - including a number of politicians who are playing the same game of avoiding the facts (no one on those talk shows actually repeated any of the damning words from Trumps phone call) while constructing an alternative narrative that listeners trust). Sadly, Greg ? ? On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 5:17 AM Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Henry, all, ? Further resonating with Beth et al?s letter, and with what Henry and Andy just wrote, I too think the point at which trust and imagination meet is key. ? A couple of days ago, I watched, together with my two daughters (10 and 4 years old respectively) segments of the Right to a Future event organized by The Intercept https://theintercept.com/2019/09/06/greta-thunberg-naomi-klein-climate-change-livestream/, where young and not-so-young activists and journalists discussed visions of 2029 if we, today, would lead radical change. It was a great chance to engage in some conversation with my children about these issues, specially with my older one; about hope and about the importance of fighting for justice. ? At some point in a follow-up conversation that we had in bed, right before sleep, we spoke about the good things that we still have with respect to nature and community, and I?perhaps not having considered my daughter?s limited awareness of the reach of the crisis?emphasized that it was important to value and enjoy those things we have in the present, when there is uncertainty as to the conditions that there will be in the near future. My daughter, very concerned, turned to me and, with what I felt was a mix of fair and skepticism, said: ?but dad, are not people fixing the problem already so that everything will go well?? ? It truly broke my heart. I reassured her that we are working as hard as we can, but invited her not to stop reminding everyone that we cannot afford stop fighting. ? My daughter clearly exhibited her (rightful) habit of trust that adults address problems, that they?ll take care of us, that things will end well, or at least, that they?ll try their best. In terms of purely formal scientific testing, it turns out that my daughter?s hypothesis could easily be rejected, as it is rather the case that my parent?s generation did very little to address problems they were ?aware? of (another discussion is what it is meant by ?awareness? in cases such as being aware of the effects of fossil fuels and still accelerating their exploitation). Yet, it would totally be against the interest of science and society that my daughter loses that trust. For if she does, then I fear she will be incapable of imagining a thriving future to demand and fight for. I fear she will lose a firm ground for agency. Which teaches me that the pedagogy that can help in this context of crisis is one in which basic trust in the good faith and orientation towards the common good of expertise is restored, and that the only way to restore it is by indeed acting accordingly, reclaiming and occupying the agency and responsibility of making sure that younger and older can continue creatively imagining a future in which things will go well at the end. ? Alfredo ? ? ? From: on behalf of Andy Blunden Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Saturday, 28 September 2019 at 04:38 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Trust and Science ? Science is based on trust, isn't it, Henry. Only a handful of people have actually measured climate change, and then probably only one factor. If we have a picture of climate change at all, for scientists and non-scientists alike, it is only because we trust the institutions of science sufficiently. And yet, everyone on this list knows how wrong these institutions can be when it comes to the area of our own expertise. So "blind trust" is not enough, one needs "critical trust" so to speak, in order to know anything scientifically. Very demanding. Important as trust is, I am inclined to think trust and its absence are symptoms of even more fundamental societal characteristics, because it is never just a question of how much trust there is in a society, but who people trust. It seems that nowadays people? are very erratic about who they trust about what and who they do not trust. Probably the agreement you saw between Huw and me was probably pretty shaky, but we have a commonality in our trusted sources, we have worked together in the past and share basic respect for each other and for science. Workable agreement. I despair over what I see happening in the UK now, where MPs genuinely fear for their lives because of the level of hatred and division in the community, which is beginning to be even worse than what Trump has created in the US. A total breakdown in trust alongside tragically misplaced trust in a couple of utterly cynical criminals! The divisions are just as sharp here in Oz too, but it has not go to that frightening level of menace it has reached in the UK and US. Greta Thunberg talks of a plural, collective "we" in opposition to a singular personal "you." She brilliantly, in my opinion, turns this black-and-white condition of the world around in a manner which just could turn it into its negation. Her use of language at the UN is reminiscent of Churchill's "we fill fight them on the beaches ..." speech and Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech. There's something for you linguists to get your teeth into! Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 28/09/2019 2:42 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: Andy and Huw, This is a perfect example of what I was talking about in the discussion of your article on Academia: Two philosophers having a dialog about the same pholosophical object, a dialog manifesting an experience of common understanding. In the same way that two mathematicians might agree on a mathematical proof. I have to believe that you are not bull shitting, that you really have understood each other via your language. So, of course this is of interest to a linguist, even though he/I don?t really get the ?proof?. I may not understand the arguments you are making, but I can imagine, based on slogging through thinking as a lingist, what it?s like to get it.? ? I think this relates to the problem in the world of a lack of trust in scientific expertise, in expertise in general. Where concpetual thinking reigns. So many climate deniers. So many Brexiters. But can you blame them entirely? Probably it would be better to say that trust isn?t enough. The problem is a lack of connection between trust and the creative imagination. It?s what Beth Fernholt and her pals have sent to the New Yorker.? ? Henry ? ? On Sep 27, 2019, at 6:40 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: ? Thanks, Huw. Theinterconnectedness of the "four concepts," I agree, they imply each other, but nonetheless, they remain distinct insights. Just because you get one, you don't necessarily get the others. Hegel uses the expression "true concept" only rarely. Generally, he simply uses the word "concept," and uses a variety of other terms like "mere conception" or"representation" or "category" to indicate something short of a concept, properly so called, but there is no strict categorisation for Hegel. Hegel is not talking about Psychology, let alone child psychology. Like with Vygotsky, all thought-forms (or forms of activity) are just phases (or stages) in the development of a concept. Reading your message, I think I am using the term "true concept" in much the same way you are. (This is not relevant to my article, but I distinguish "true concept" from "actual concept." All the various forms of "complexive thinking" fall short, so to speak, of "true concepts," and further development takes an abstract concept, such as learnt in lecture 101 of a topic, to an "actual concept". But that is not relevant here. Hegel barely touches on these issues.) I don't agree with your specific categories, but yes, for Vygotsky, chapters 4, 5 and 6 are all talking about concepts in a developmental sense. There are about 10 distinct stages for Vygotsky. And they are not equivalent to any series of stages identified by Hegel. Vgotsky's "stages" were drawn from a specific experiment with children; Hegel's Logic is cast somewhat differently (the Logic is not a series of stages) and has a domain much larger than Psychology. The experienced doctor does not use what I would call "formal concepts" in her work, which are what I would call the concepts they learnt in Diagnostics 101 when they were a student. After 20 years of experience, these formal concepts have accrued practical life experience, and remain true concepts, but are no longer "formal." Of course, the student was not taught pseudoconcepts in Diagnostics 101. But all this is nothing to do with the article in question. Hegel and Vygotsky are talking about different things, but even in terms of the subject matter, but especially in terms of the conceptual form, there is more Hegel in "Thinking and Speech" than initially meets the eye. Andy Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 27/09/2019 4:32 pm, Huw Lloyd wrote: The "four concepts", for me, are four aspects of one understanding -- they imply each other. ? Quoting this passage: "The ?abstract generality? referred to above by Hegel, Vygotsky aptly called a ?pseudoconcept? - a form of abstract generalization, uniting objects by shared common features, which resembles conceptual thinking because, within a limited domain ofexperience, they subsume the same objects and situations as the true concept indicated by the same word. The pseudoconcept is not the exclusive achievement of the child. In our everyday lives, our thinking frequently occurs in pseudoconcepts. From the perspective of dialectical logic, the concepts that we find in our living speech are not concepts in the true sense of the word. They are actually general representations of things. There is no doubt, however, that these representations are a transitional stage between complexes or pseudoconcepts and true concepts. (Vygotsky, 1934/1987, p. 155)" ? My impression from your text, Andy, is that you are misreading Vygotsky's "Thinking and Speech". Implicit LSV's whole text of vol. 1 is an appreciation for different kinds of conception (3 levels: pseudo, formal, and dialectical), but the terminology of "concept" is only applied to the formal concept, i.e. where Vygotsky writes "concept" one can read "formal concept". ? In vol. 1, the?analysis of the trajectory of the thought of the child is towards a growing achievement of employing formal concepts. These formal concepts are only called "true concepts" (not to be confused with Hegel's true concept) in relation to the pseudo (fake or untrue) formal concepts. The pseudo concepts pertain to a form of cognition that is considered by Vygotsky (quite sensibly) to precede the concepts of formal logic.? This is quite obvious to any thorough-going psychological reading of the text. ? However, within the frame of analysis of the text there is another form of conception which is Vygotsky's approach towards a dialectical understanding. None of Vygotsky's utterances about dialectics (in this volume) should be conflated with the "true concept" which he is using as a short-hand for the "true formal concept", similarly none of Vygotsky's utterances about "pseudo concepts" should be confused with formal concepts. ? I hope that helps, Huw ? ? ? ? ? ? On Sat, 21 Sep 2019 at 06:37, Andy Blunden wrote: I'd dearly like to get some discussion going on this: It will be shown that at least four foundational concepts of Cultural Historical Activity Theory were previously formulated by Hegel, viz., (1) the unit of analysis as a key concept for analytic-synthetic cognition, (2) the centrality of artifact-mediated actions, (3) the definitive distinction between goal and motive in activities, and (4) the distinction between a true concept and a pseudoconcept. https://www.academia.edu/s/7d70db6eb3/the-hegelian-sources-of-cultural-historical-activity-theory Andy -- Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page ? -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu? http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson ? -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu? http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson ? -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu? http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson ? -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu? http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu? http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191001/4328569c/attachment-0001.html From aysekan@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 08:55:30 2019 From: aysekan@gmail.com (Baloncuk Tr) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:55:30 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= Message-ID: Dear all, I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics curriculum and math books in English or Russian. Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. Ayse Tokac Selcuk University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191003/546694bc/attachment.html From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 13:03:51 2019 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (Larry Smolucha) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 20:03:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Question on Imagination In-Reply-To: References: <18469978.8713246.1569446167752.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <18469978.8713246.1569446167752@mail.yahoo.com> <07BC1E51-C379-4103-BB33-76531F0DF8EF@helsinki.fi> <686E417A-56B3-4773-B110-DBC4F8FA6A9E@unco.edu> <10E15C0E-BA6A-48AC-B0A3-5309A0DA7A9F@gmail.com>, Message-ID: From Francine Smolucha, Greetings Shannon, You will find a paper that my husband and I published in 2018 of interest - it explicitly addresses the collaboration of imagination and analytic thought in creativity including socio-political imagination. It is based on our early works in the 1980's when I was the first person to translate Vygotsky's three papers on the development of imagination and creativity. In those papers Vygotsky referenced Theodul Ribot's Essay on the Creative Imagination (1901/1967) that includes Socio-Political Creative Imagination. All this is addressed in Neuropsychological Systems of Cultural Creativity (Larry ... https://www.peterlang.com ? view ? chapter15 New Frontiers for Vygotsky's Theory of Creativity: Neuropsychological Systems of Cultural Creativity (Larry / Francine Smolucha) ... Best Wishes ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 1:21 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Question on Imagination On all of our minds ... a few of us who study imagination in and through playworlds (see lchc polyphonic autobiography) just wrote this to the New Yorker: We are two social scientists and an elementary school teacher who practice and study intergenerational pretending and play and we would like to say, in response to Franzen's piece -- "What if we stop pretending?" -- that it is never a good time to stop pretending ... but now is probably a really bad time to stop pretending. While it is not often useful to be in denial, shielding ourselves from things we fear, this activity is unrelated to forms of collective pretending that could create ways of ending, or even ways of continuing development, that could never have been anticipated. As human beings we create imagined futures to understand our pasts and so make our presents bearable and beautiful. When things are most difficult -- really all the time -- this creative cycle between fantasy and reality is the best way for us to save our humanity, and maybe humanity itself, for as long as possible. What we all need to do now is to find ways to listen to what the climate scientists tell us without ever stopping pretending or, in other words, to listen to what the adult climate scientists tell us AND to what our youngest fellow citizens, the children, told us on September 20th: That we all must imagine world change as possible. Beth On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:09 PM HENRY SHONERD > wrote: Shannon, I apologize for addressing my response to Michael, since it was you that got this thread started. Though, Michael, I certainly like what you had to say. While I?m at it, I would like to add that a lot of language goes ?beyond the immediate situation?. That is certainly true of this discussion. To make sense of it, I have to do a lot of imagining. It is what distinguishes language, a unique human capacity, from the communication of other species. Language allows for displaced reference, the ability to refer to things and events removed in time and space from the immediate context of the spoken and written word. On the other hand, displaced reference need not be very creative. I lot of it is pretty mundane stuff. In the same way, imagination can be pretty mundane. Fantasy, may or may not be very creative. But perhaps what is creative for a chlld may not be for an adult. Or what is creative use of the imagination for me at one age, not so much when I get older? From a Vygotskian perspective, I wonder if perizhvanie involves an important use of the imagination: a lived experience, potentially traumatic, that provides a crucible for the development of personality, of character. I am thinking of the use of art to provide an ?outlet? for those who suffer trauma. Sometimes language just is not able to channel the emotions in that way that art can. Early Vygotsky was totally into art. Vera John-Steiner, as a teen ager, taught children dance in the concentration camp where she was interned. Henry On Sep 26, 2019, at 2:05 PM, Walker, Dana > wrote: Michael, Vygotsky (1994) wrote, [A]ccording to the valid observation of Pushkin, imagination is as necessary in geometry as it is in poetry. Everything that requires artistic transformation of reality, everything that is connected with interpretation and construction of something new, requires the indispensable participation of fantasy. (p. 269-270) Zittoun & Gl Gl?veanu (2018) translate and interpret ?fantasy? as ?imagination,? as Leif Strandberg in this thread notes they have done in Sweden in a recent publication. Jovchelovitch (2018) and co-authors define imagination in the following terms: Imagination is the human capacity to go beyond the immediate situation and play with possible realities? Liberating oneself from the immediacy of the perceptual field and being able to creatively recombine elements of context and previous experience is enabled by the interdependence between self and other. Imagination is social, adaptive, and intrinsic to rational thinking. (p. 114) So in answer to your question, ?When a writer sits down to write or a director stages a play or an artist creates a painting is it the same thing as working towards a new tool and symbol?? According to my reading I would say yes. In answer to this question, ?I mean that may also be a goal of the artist but is it the same thing?? I think you point to a challenge for theorists of imagination and those who seek to design for imagination in educational settings: How do we define and use the construct of imagination as something distinct from all other higher psychological processes? Dana REFERENCES Jovchelovitch, S. (2015). The creativity of the social Imagination, development and social change in Rio de Janeiro?s favelas. In V. P. Gl?veanu, A. Gillespie, & J. Valsiner (Eds.), Rethinking creativity: Contributions from cultural psychology (pp. 76-92). New York: Routledge. Vygotsky, L. S. (1994). Imagination and creativity in the adolescent. In R. Van der Veer & J. Valsiner (Eds.), The Vygotsky Reader (pp. 266-288). Oxford, UK: Blackwell. Zittoun, T., & Gl?veanu, V. P. (Eds.). (2018). Handbook of imagination and culture. New York: Oxford University Press. From: > on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 9:37 AM To: "laure.kloetzer@gmail.com" >, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Question on Imagination This is interesting to me as I am wondering if there is a differentiation between imagination and being open to new possibilities and what relationship this has to how we education. Last week we were reading Vygotsky?s writings on early human thinking is a seminar. He said something that really struck me. It was about the difference in how we might treat teaching to track a bear. For early man it might be teaching all the details so you could recreate the hunt of the bear using the tracks. For more modern thinking it might be more about using the track to tell the story of a hunt for a bear opening up a new possibility for things that might happen. Both have their advantages. For the former you have a more detailed and direct instruction of what you are supposed to do. For the latter you are open to new possibilities as new circumstances might make the hunt more complex in ways you are not anticipating so you are open to learning new tools in sign operation or more likely in sign co-operation. A student actually asked, is this the same thing as imagination, actually bringing up the idea of having an imaginary friend. I did not know how to answer. Is being able to think about things in an open manner and able to co-operate in creating new tools and symbols the same thing as imagination. When a write sits down to write or a director stages a play or an artist creates a painting is it the same thing as working towards a new tool and symbol? I mean that may also be a goal of the artist but is it the same thing? And we often treat imagination as a force to be unleashed, but does it have to do more with the way we education? Questions running around my head. Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Laure Kloetzer Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 7:54 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Question on Imagination Hi Shannon and all, I am also very interested if you can share all feedbacks you get on this topic, Shannon. Recently, we began organizing science fiction workshops with students to "extricate the future" - betting that imagination, exploring alternative possible worlds, is a necessary path to free the future from its ready-made, unavoidable clothes massively sold by multinationals and goverments. On going work, with quite interesting insights, esp. on how difficult it is to link imagination and political change. Also here in Neuch?tel, one of Tania Zittoun's doctoral student is working on close topics (imagination and political utopia). Finally, I think that Manolis Dafermos, or some of his colleagues and friends, made a movie with young people in Greece on overcoming the crisis, but I can not find it now, sorry... Best regards, LK Le jeu. 26 sept. 2019 ? 13:05, Jaakko Hilpp? > a ?crit : Hi Shannon, You might find Tania Zittoun's and Alex Gillespie?s work relevant. https://libra.unine.ch/Publications/Tania_Zittoun_Mazourek/30289 The book was recently reviewed in MCA by Paul Harris. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2018.1433213 Hope this helps Jake :) **************************** Jaakko Hilpp? jaakko.hilppo@helsinki.fi Post-doctoral Researcher ORCID: 0000-0003-0236-9517 Faculty of Education P.O. Box 9, 00014 University of Helsinki +358 40 533 4643 CURRENT PROJECTS: Compassionate Projects: New Forms of Children?s Civic Engagement http://bit.ly/CompassionateProjects Constituting Cultures of Compassion bit.ly/CoCuCo FUSE https://www.fusestudio.net **************************** Alfredo Jornet Gil > kirjoitti 26.9.2019 kello 10.15: Really interesting topic, Shannon; just recently Beth Ferholt and I were talking about the relevance of fantasy and imagination in the current context. My sense is that there is more to explore than actually done when it comes to bridging the issue with politics, though I also suspect I may be deeply ignorant in terms of what the actual intellectual landscape is, so I?ll be very interested to follow if you share more of what you are learning about the topic and doing. Ferholt?s work herself may be interesting for you? Also from Sweeden, the work of Gunilla Lindqvist is obviously relevant. Marilyn Fleer just published on Lindqvist?s work in Mind, Culture, and Activity:https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2019.1663215 Alfredo From: > on behalf of Leif Strandberg > Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Thursday, 26 September 2019 at 08:45 To: Shannon Brincat >, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Question on Imagination Hi In Sweden we have translated Vygotsky?s Voobrazenie i tvorcestvo v detskom vozraste - with the Swedish title Fantasi och kreativitet I bandomen. (? Fantasy and Creativity in Childhood) It is a great book. Greetings from Leif Strandberg Fr?n: > on behalf of Shannon Brincat > Svara till: Shannon Brincat >, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Datum: onsdag 25 september 2019 23:16 Till: Culture Activity EXtended Mind > ?mne: [Xmca-l] Question on Imagination Dear all, I am trying to complete an article on imagination and world politics that brings in Vygotsky. I was hoping that some of you could point me in the direction of where Vygotsky addresses imagination (both as developmental process in humans AND as life-activity with its political implications). Further, do any of you know of any studies or publications on this theme that may be useful? Many thanks for your time. Sincerely, Shannon Dr. Shannon K. Brincat Senior Lecturer, University of the Sunshine Coast Room T2..09 | School of Social Sciences | University of the Sunshine Coast | 91 Sippy Downs Dr | Sippy Downs | Queensland | 4556 | Australia +61 7 5430 1193 https://www.shannonbrincat.com/ Global Discourse, Co-Editor http://www.tandfonline.com/loi/rgld20 New Book available: From International Relations to World Civilizations: The contributions of Robert W. Cox, London: Routledge, 2017. **This message originated from outside UNC. Please use caution when opening attachments or following links. Do not enter your UNC credentials when prompted by external links.** -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191003/95fa756e/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 13:04:33 2019 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 21:04:33 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental instruction (Kharkov school and others). Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this material is the completely different approach to "instruction" ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of engagement. Best, Huw On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > Dear all, > > I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a > curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would > appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics > curriculum and math books in English or Russian. > > Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. > > Ayse Tokac > > Selcuk University > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191003/7f601e05/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Oct 3 16:10:36 2019 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 16:10:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Ayse Tokac et al The most extensive work I know on Davydov's curriculum in the US is by the late Jean Schmittau. Here is a summary essay. http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2014-11.dir/pdfNp67WhAW7c.pdf If you look on google you will find all of her work I believe. mike cole On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:58 AM Baloncuk Tr wrote: > Dear all, > > I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a > curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would > appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics > curriculum and math books in English or Russian. > > Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. > > Ayse Tokac > > Selcuk University > -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191003/95eae9a7/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 4 04:18:49 2019 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 12:18:49 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A result! Thank you, Galina. Attached is a coarse google translation of the first doc. On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:12, Galina Zuckerman wrote: > The publishing house "BINOM" recently published all math textbooks for > elementary school children, designed by Davydov and his followers. > http://lbz.ru/books/936/ > You can order the books through this publishing house. > Manuals for teachers are available free: > http://lbz.ru/metodist/authors/elkonin-davydov/6/ > Enjoy! > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:04 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of >> "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in >> numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental >> instruction (Kharkov school and others). >> >> Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this >> material is the completely different approach to "instruction" >> ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). >> In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a >> conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving >> developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate >> curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. >> >> A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails >> pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry >> the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made >> advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of >> engagement. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a >>> curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would >>> appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics >>> curriculum and math books in English or Russian. >>> >>> Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. >>> >>> Ayse Tokac >>> >>> Selcuk University >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191004/caac24aa/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mathematics_program.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 13179 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191004/caac24aa/attachment.bin From aysekan@gmail.com Fri Oct 4 04:34:41 2019 From: aysekan@gmail.com (Baloncuk Tr) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 14:34:41 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Thank you for taking the time and sending me the articles and the books. They are great for the project because I did not have some of them. What I needed to find was the textbooks for elementary students written by Davydov and his associates. I guess I misworded my request. The citation for the books are: Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. (1999). Mathematics: Class 1. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State University of New York. Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. (2000). Mathematics: Class 2. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State University of New York. Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., Savyelyeva, O. V., and Tabachnikova, N. L. (2001). Mathematics: 3rd Grade. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State University of New York. These are English translations of the original books. I read Galina?s email and I will look at the website she mentioned with a Russian friend from my school. I could not understand anything right now because I don?t speak Russian. I will post you about what I find in the website. Thank you again for your immediate responses. I am happy to be part of this group. Lots of love from Turkey Ay?e Toka? Sel?uk University Huw Lloyd , 4 Eki 2019 Cum, 14:24 tarihinde ?unu yazd?: > A result! Thank you, Galina. > > Attached is a coarse google translation of the first doc. > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:12, Galina Zuckerman > wrote: > >> The publishing house "BINOM" recently published all math textbooks for >> elementary school children, designed by Davydov and his followers. >> http://lbz.ru/books/936/ >> You can order the books through this publishing house. >> Manuals for teachers are available free: >> http://lbz.ru/metodist/authors/elkonin-davydov/6/ >> Enjoy! >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:04 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of >>> "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in >>> numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental >>> instruction (Kharkov school and others). >>> >>> Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this >>> material is the completely different approach to "instruction" >>> ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). >>> In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a >>> conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving >>> developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate >>> curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. >>> >>> A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails >>> pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry >>> the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made >>> advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of >>> engagement. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a >>>> curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would >>>> appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics >>>> curriculum and math books in English or Russian. >>>> >>>> Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. >>>> >>>> Ayse Tokac >>>> >>>> Selcuk University >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191004/c07e346e/attachment.html From ewall@umich.edu Sat Oct 5 14:30:22 2019 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 16:30:22 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry as I saw this but was short of time. I recommend you take careful note of what Huw says about ?instruction.? Anyway, most of the attempts re the Davydov ?curriculum? in the US that I knew about have been abandoned because, it seems, ?qualified? teachers were not readily available (and, in my opinion, that is very unlikely to change). Perhaps the most substantial attempt in recent times was at the University of Hawaii; there still may be some mention and a text was ?promised', but I have never been able find out much and I have tried several times. That said, there are elementary curricula/instruction - and I only mention this as an aside - that attempt to do substantial mathematics in a somewhat dialogic manner; NYC, Ann Arbor, and the Netherlands are sites. The difficult problem is that while one might argue - I don?t argue so - that we have a theory of learning re mathematics, we don?t really have, and this is an opinion, a robust one - there are some reasonable ones, but they are anemic - about teaching or more importantly about studying (the intersection of teaching and learning) mathematics. There are English translations of articles published here and there by Davydov and collaborators about, I assume the thoughts behind the curricula, the curriculum; e.g. 'The Object Source of the Concept of Fractions.' I think I even have a paper somewhere where Davydov explains some of the details of the curricular sequence. As regards instruction, I would assume Galina Zuckerman would be the person to contact and I suspect Anna Marjanovic-Shane would have useful things to say. Peg Griffin was the first to give me a sketch of classroom interactions (very helpful in my theorizing). There are several private schools in Russia (or where when I last looked) and, while not touted as the most influential (which means little in the climate around mathematics instruction), there is, at least, one existent that still appears to follow Davydov. If you get something off the ground in English and ramp it up in some reasonable manner, there are a lot of mathematical educators who likely would flock to your door :) Ed Wall Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. > On Oct 4, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > > Hi, > > Thank you for taking the time and sending me the articles and the books. They are great for the project because I did not have some of them. What I needed to find was the textbooks for elementary students written by Davydov and his associates. I guess I misworded my request. The citation for the books are: > > > > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. (1999). Mathematics: Class 1. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State University of New York. > > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. (2000). Mathematics: Class 2. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State University of New York. Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., > > Mikulina, G. G., Savyelyeva, O. V., and Tabachnikova, N. L. (2001). Mathematics: 3rd Grade. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State University of New York. > > > These are English translations of the original books. I read Galina?s email and I will look at the website she mentioned with a Russian friend from my school. I could not understand anything right now because I don?t speak Russian. I will post you about what I find in the website. Thank you again for your immediate responses. I am happy to be part of this group. > > Lots of love from Turkey > > Ay?e Toka? > > Sel?uk University > > > Huw Lloyd , 4 Eki 2019 Cum, 14:24 tarihinde ?unu yazd?: > A result! Thank you, Galina. > > Attached is a coarse google translation of the first doc. > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:12, Galina Zuckerman wrote: > The publishing house "BINOM" recently published all math textbooks for elementary school children, designed by Davydov and his followers. > http://lbz.ru/books/936/ > You can order the books through this publishing house. > Manuals for teachers are available free: > http://lbz.ru/metodist/authors/elkonin-davydov/6/ > Enjoy! > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:04 PM Huw Lloyd wrote: > There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental instruction (Kharkov school and others). > > Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this material is the completely different approach to "instruction" ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. > > A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of engagement. > > Best, > Huw > > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > Dear all, > > I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics curriculum and math books in English or Russian. > > Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. > > Ayse Tokac > > Selcuk University > From aysekan@gmail.com Sun Oct 6 13:36:24 2019 From: aysekan@gmail.com (Baloncuk Tr) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 23:36:24 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks so much for the ideas on the project, Ed. I began to think that the project will be more difficult than I thought. I think I need a math teacher who knows the mathematical theories very well. But it is very difficult to find such a teacher. Math teachers take math and education courses at the same time in Turkey. They may not know the theories of the discipline they teach very well because of the education they get in university. Knowing the recent developments in the field you teach is very important for developmental teaching. As all you know, quality of the content (scientific vs. everyday concepts) is important in developmental teaching. Ed, what you said about the abandonment of Davydov?s curriculum because of the teachers made me think about the ?New Math? curriculum movement in the USA. In articles and books about history of math education I read that After Russia launched the Sputnik 1, American public experienced a period of fear and anxiety about technological gap between the USA and Soviet Union. In order to boost the science education, a group of American mathematics professors prepared a new curriculum based on Bourbaki?s extremely abstract and formal mathematical theory. At first public welcomed the change. After a while, parents, teachers, policy makers opposed the change because the new curriculum was too far outside of students' ordinary experience. In the end, the curriculum was abandoned. By the way, Davydov too used Bourbaki?s mathematical theory to design his curriculum. Ay?e Toka? Edward Wall , 6 Eki 2019 Paz, 00:33 tarihinde ?unu yazd?: > Sorry as I saw this but was short of time. I recommend you take > careful note of what Huw says about ?instruction.? > > Anyway, most of the attempts re the Davydov ?curriculum? in the US > that I knew about have been abandoned because, it seems, ?qualified? > teachers were not readily available (and, in my opinion, that is very > unlikely to change). Perhaps the most substantial attempt in recent times > was at the University of Hawaii; there still may be some mention and a text > was ?promised', but I have never been able find out much and I have tried > several times. > That said, there are elementary curricula/instruction - and I only > mention this as an aside - that attempt to do substantial mathematics in a > somewhat dialogic manner; NYC, Ann Arbor, and the Netherlands are sites. > The difficult problem is that while one might argue - I don?t argue so - > that we have a theory of learning re mathematics, we don?t really have, > and this is an opinion, a robust one - there are some reasonable ones, but > they are anemic - about teaching or more importantly about studying (the > intersection of teaching and learning) mathematics. > > There are English translations of articles published here and there > by Davydov and collaborators about, I assume the thoughts behind the > curricula, the curriculum; e.g. 'The Object Source of the Concept of > Fractions.' I think I even have a paper somewhere where Davydov explains > some of the details of the curricular sequence. As regards instruction, I > would assume Galina Zuckerman would be the person to contact and I suspect > Anna Marjanovic-Shane would have useful things to say. Peg Griffin was the > first to give me a sketch of classroom interactions (very helpful in my > theorizing). > > There are several private schools in Russia (or where when I last > looked) and, while not touted as the most influential (which means little > in the climate around mathematics instruction), there is, at least, one > existent that still appears to follow Davydov. > > If you get something off the ground in English and ramp it up in > some reasonable manner, there are a lot of mathematical educators who > likely would flock to your door :) > > Ed Wall > > Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a > sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. > > > On Oct 4, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Thank you for taking the time and sending me the articles and the > books. They are great for the project because I did not have some of them. > What I needed to find was the textbooks for elementary students written by > Davydov and his associates. I guess I misworded my request. The citation > for the books are: > > > > > > > > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. > (1999). Mathematics: Class 1. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State > University of New York. > > > > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. > (2000). Mathematics: Class 2. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State > University of New York. Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., > > > > Mikulina, G. G., Savyelyeva, O. V., and Tabachnikova, N. L. (2001). > Mathematics: 3rd Grade. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State > University of New York. > > > > > > These are English translations of the original books. I read Galina?s > email and I will look at the website she mentioned with a Russian friend > from my school. I could not understand anything right now because I don?t > speak Russian. I will post you about what I find in the website. Thank you > again for your immediate responses. I am happy to be part of this group. > > > > Lots of love from Turkey > > > > Ay?e Toka? > > > > Sel?uk University > > > > > > Huw Lloyd , 4 Eki 2019 Cum, 14:24 tarihinde > ?unu yazd?: > > A result! Thank you, Galina. > > > > Attached is a coarse google translation of the first doc. > > > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:12, Galina Zuckerman < > galina.zuckerman@gmail.com> wrote: > > The publishing house "BINOM" recently published all math textbooks for > elementary school children, designed by Davydov and his followers. > > http://lbz.ru/books/936/ > > You can order the books through this publishing house. > > Manuals for teachers are available free: > > http://lbz.ru/metodist/authors/elkonin-davydov/6/ > > Enjoy! > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:04 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of > "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in > numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental > instruction (Kharkov school and others). > > > > Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this > material is the completely different approach to "instruction" > ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). > In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a > conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving > developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate > curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. > > > > A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails > pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry > the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made > advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of > engagement. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a > curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would > appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics > curriculum and math books in English or Russian. > > > > Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. > > > > Ayse Tokac > > > > Selcuk University > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191006/458126fd/attachment.html From ewall@umich.edu Sun Oct 6 15:29:39 2019 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 17:29:39 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All I?m taking this off list assuming that there is not all that much interest. Let me know otherwise. Ed Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. > On Oct 6, 2019, at 3:36 PM, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > > Thanks so much for the ideas on the project, Ed. > > I began to think that the project will be more difficult than I thought. I think I need a math teacher who knows the mathematical theories very well. But it is very difficult to find such a teacher. Math teachers take math and education courses at the same time in Turkey. They may not know the theories of the discipline they teach very well because of the education they get in university. Knowing the recent developments in the field you teach is very important for developmental teaching. As all you know, quality of the content (scientific vs. everyday concepts) is important in developmental teaching. > > Ed, what you said about the abandonment of Davydov?s curriculum because of the teachers made me think about the ?New Math? curriculum movement in the USA. In articles and books about history of math education I read that After Russia launched the Sputnik 1, American public experienced a period of fear and anxiety about technological gap between the USA and Soviet Union. In order to boost the science education, a group of American mathematics professors prepared a new curriculum based on Bourbaki?s extremely abstract and formal mathematical theory. At first public welcomed the change. After a while, parents, teachers, policy makers opposed the change because the new curriculum was too far outside of students' ordinary experience. In the end, the curriculum was abandoned. By the way, Davydov too used Bourbaki?s mathematical theory to design his curriculum. > > Ay?e Toka? > > > Edward Wall >, 6 Eki 2019 Paz, 00:33 tarihinde ?unu yazd?: > Sorry as I saw this but was short of time. I recommend you take careful note of what Huw says about ?instruction.? > > Anyway, most of the attempts re the Davydov ?curriculum? in the US that I knew about have been abandoned because, it seems, ?qualified? teachers were not readily available (and, in my opinion, that is very unlikely to change). Perhaps the most substantial attempt in recent times was at the University of Hawaii; there still may be some mention and a text was ?promised', but I have never been able find out much and I have tried several times. > That said, there are elementary curricula/instruction - and I only mention this as an aside - that attempt to do substantial mathematics in a somewhat dialogic manner; NYC, Ann Arbor, and the Netherlands are sites. The difficult problem is that while one might argue - I don?t argue so - that we have a theory of learning re mathematics, we don?t really have, and this is an opinion, a robust one - there are some reasonable ones, but they are anemic - about teaching or more importantly about studying (the intersection of teaching and learning) mathematics. > > There are English translations of articles published here and there by Davydov and collaborators about, I assume the thoughts behind the curricula, the curriculum; e.g. 'The Object Source of the Concept of Fractions.' I think I even have a paper somewhere where Davydov explains some of the details of the curricular sequence. As regards instruction, I would assume Galina Zuckerman would be the person to contact and I suspect Anna Marjanovic-Shane would have useful things to say. Peg Griffin was the first to give me a sketch of classroom interactions (very helpful in my theorizing). > > There are several private schools in Russia (or where when I last looked) and, while not touted as the most influential (which means little in the climate around mathematics instruction), there is, at least, one existent that still appears to follow Davydov. > > If you get something off the ground in English and ramp it up in some reasonable manner, there are a lot of mathematical educators who likely would flock to your door :) > > Ed Wall > > Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. > > > On Oct 4, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Baloncuk Tr > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Thank you for taking the time and sending me the articles and the books. They are great for the project because I did not have some of them. What I needed to find was the textbooks for elementary students written by Davydov and his associates. I guess I misworded my request. The citation for the books are: > > > > > > > > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. (1999). Mathematics: Class 1. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State University of New York. > > > > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. (2000). Mathematics: Class 2. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State University of New York. Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., > > > > Mikulina, G. G., Savyelyeva, O. V., and Tabachnikova, N. L. (2001). Mathematics: 3rd Grade. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State University of New York. > > > > > > These are English translations of the original books. I read Galina?s email and I will look at the website she mentioned with a Russian friend from my school. I could not understand anything right now because I don?t speak Russian. I will post you about what I find in the website. Thank you again for your immediate responses. I am happy to be part of this group. > > > > Lots of love from Turkey > > > > Ay?e Toka? > > > > Sel?uk University > > > > > > Huw Lloyd >, 4 Eki 2019 Cum, 14:24 tarihinde ?unu yazd?: > > A result! Thank you, Galina. > > > > Attached is a coarse google translation of the first doc. > > > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:12, Galina Zuckerman > wrote: > > The publishing house "BINOM" recently published all math textbooks for elementary school children, designed by Davydov and his followers. > > http://lbz.ru/books/936/ > > You can order the books through this publishing house. > > Manuals for teachers are available free: > > http://lbz.ru/metodist/authors/elkonin-davydov/6/ > > Enjoy! > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:04 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental instruction (Kharkov school and others). > > > > Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this material is the completely different approach to "instruction" ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. > > > > A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of engagement. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr > wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics curriculum and math books in English or Russian. > > > > Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. > > > > Ayse Tokac > > > > Selcuk University > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191006/9b69e563/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Oct 7 02:42:10 2019 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 10:42:10 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Nicolas Bourbaki" is a pseudonym for a group. I am not familiar with the details of their set-theoretic approach, however the emphasis on the approach taken by Davydov was (is) concrete -- the ideas are intended to be experienced. I doubt it is a good idea to associate the two as sharing a philosophy or core set of ideas. Davydov's approach entails a compact set of understandings pertaining to the history of ideas, a unit of analysis (of a domain), the presentation according to the participants (zpd etc), the appropriate orientation, and subject familiarity (expertise). This is all constellated in the experience, and might be considered a necessity for any developmental approach. The subject matter appearance might be viewed as abstract -- as a collection of notations about aspects of things -- but the point of the developmental approach is to foster transformations in ways of understanding, construing, thinking, etc. The emphasis is upon this transformation, which is the dialectical aspect. The formal content is a vehicle, it isn't the goal. Best, Huw On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 at 21:39, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > Thanks so much for the ideas on the project, Ed. > > I began to think that the project will be more difficult than I thought. I > think I need a math teacher who knows the mathematical theories very well. > But it is very difficult to find such a teacher. Math teachers take math > and education courses at the same time in Turkey. They may not know the > theories of the discipline they teach very well because of the education > they get in university. Knowing the recent developments in the field you > teach is very important for developmental teaching. As all you know, > quality of the content (scientific vs. everyday concepts) is important in > developmental teaching. > > Ed, what you said about the abandonment of Davydov?s curriculum because of > the teachers made me think about the ?New Math? curriculum movement in the > USA. In articles and books about history of math education I read that > After Russia launched the Sputnik 1, American public experienced a period > of fear and anxiety about technological gap between the USA and Soviet > Union. In order to boost the science education, a group of American > mathematics professors prepared a new curriculum based on Bourbaki?s > extremely abstract and formal mathematical theory. At first public welcomed > the change. After a while, parents, teachers, policy makers opposed the > change because the new curriculum was too far outside of students' ordinary > experience. In the end, the curriculum was abandoned. By the way, Davydov > too used Bourbaki?s mathematical theory to design his curriculum. > > Ay?e Toka? > > Edward Wall , 6 Eki 2019 Paz, 00:33 tarihinde ?unu yazd?: > >> Sorry as I saw this but was short of time. I recommend you take >> careful note of what Huw says about ?instruction.? >> >> Anyway, most of the attempts re the Davydov ?curriculum? in the US >> that I knew about have been abandoned because, it seems, ?qualified? >> teachers were not readily available (and, in my opinion, that is very >> unlikely to change). Perhaps the most substantial attempt in recent times >> was at the University of Hawaii; there still may be some mention and a text >> was ?promised', but I have never been able find out much and I have tried >> several times. >> That said, there are elementary curricula/instruction - and I only >> mention this as an aside - that attempt to do substantial mathematics in a >> somewhat dialogic manner; NYC, Ann Arbor, and the Netherlands are sites. >> The difficult problem is that while one might argue - I don?t argue so - >> that we have a theory of learning re mathematics, we don?t really have, >> and this is an opinion, a robust one - there are some reasonable ones, but >> they are anemic - about teaching or more importantly about studying (the >> intersection of teaching and learning) mathematics. >> >> There are English translations of articles published here and there >> by Davydov and collaborators about, I assume the thoughts behind the >> curricula, the curriculum; e.g. 'The Object Source of the Concept of >> Fractions.' I think I even have a paper somewhere where Davydov explains >> some of the details of the curricular sequence. As regards instruction, I >> would assume Galina Zuckerman would be the person to contact and I suspect >> Anna Marjanovic-Shane would have useful things to say. Peg Griffin was the >> first to give me a sketch of classroom interactions (very helpful in my >> theorizing). >> >> There are several private schools in Russia (or where when I last >> looked) and, while not touted as the most influential (which means little >> in the climate around mathematics instruction), there is, at least, one >> existent that still appears to follow Davydov. >> >> If you get something off the ground in English and ramp it up in >> some reasonable manner, there are a lot of mathematical educators who >> likely would flock to your door :) >> >> Ed Wall >> >> Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a >> sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. >> >> > On Oct 4, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > Thank you for taking the time and sending me the articles and the >> books. They are great for the project because I did not have some of them. >> What I needed to find was the textbooks for elementary students written by >> Davydov and his associates. I guess I misworded my request. The citation >> for the books are: >> > >> > >> > >> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >> (1999). Mathematics: Class 1. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >> University of New York. >> > >> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >> (2000). Mathematics: Class 2. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >> University of New York. Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., >> > >> > Mikulina, G. G., Savyelyeva, O. V., and Tabachnikova, N. L. (2001). >> Mathematics: 3rd Grade. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >> University of New York. >> > >> > >> > These are English translations of the original books. I read Galina?s >> email and I will look at the website she mentioned with a Russian friend >> from my school. I could not understand anything right now because I don?t >> speak Russian. I will post you about what I find in the website. Thank you >> again for your immediate responses. I am happy to be part of this group. >> > >> > Lots of love from Turkey >> > >> > Ay?e Toka? >> > >> > Sel?uk University >> > >> > >> > Huw Lloyd , 4 Eki 2019 Cum, 14:24 tarihinde >> ?unu yazd?: >> > A result! Thank you, Galina. >> > >> > Attached is a coarse google translation of the first doc. >> > >> > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:12, Galina Zuckerman < >> galina.zuckerman@gmail.com> wrote: >> > The publishing house "BINOM" recently published all math textbooks for >> elementary school children, designed by Davydov and his followers. >> > http://lbz.ru/books/936/ >> > You can order the books through this publishing house. >> > Manuals for teachers are available free: >> > http://lbz.ru/metodist/authors/elkonin-davydov/6/ >> > Enjoy! >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:04 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> > There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of >> "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in >> numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental >> instruction (Kharkov school and others). >> > >> > Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this >> material is the completely different approach to "instruction" >> ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). >> In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a >> conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving >> developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate >> curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. >> > >> > A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails >> pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry >> the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made >> advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of >> engagement. >> > >> > Best, >> > Huw >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >> > Dear all, >> > >> > I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a >> curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would >> appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics >> curriculum and math books in English or Russian. >> > >> > Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. >> > >> > Ayse Tokac >> > >> > Selcuk University >> > >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191007/f5619b27/attachment.html From aysekan@gmail.com Mon Oct 7 08:33:25 2019 From: aysekan@gmail.com (Baloncuk Tr) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:33:25 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The dialogue we have here is helping me clear some points about the project. Huw, you wrote that ?content is a vehicle not the goal?. Because of the way we teach a content, or a concept may lead to a type of concept which is outdated or false (or in Vygotsky?s words everyday concepts) in a formal discipline. As the students move to higher grades, the content or concepts become more formal and abstract in the way they are handled in the discipline itself. Students may form misconceptions because of the way we teach. They have difficulty learning the concepts in later grades. For example, most students in Turkey do not want to take advanced math?s courses. They fail in these courses because they cannot overcome their misconceptions. They avoid the discipline altogether. For example, math?s departments in universities have difficulty in getting students in Turkey. Most students do not want to study math?s because they must study the formal content at the university level. There is also the STEM (science, technology, Engineering, Math?s) education, which is very popular now in Turkey and all over the world. I think countries are in a race for technological and scientific advancement. Even pre-K students are encouraged to think like engineers. Even though I think taking things to extreme points is unnecessary, conveying the content in the way a formal discipline describes is the goal. As a teacher, I find it more difficult to teach students who have false and uncomplete knowledge than students who have no knowledge. Because I need to get them forget about their misconceptions first. Best Ay?e Huw Lloyd , 7 Eki 2019 Pzt, 12:45 tarihinde ?unu yazd?: > "Nicolas Bourbaki" is a pseudonym for a group. I am not familiar with the > details of their set-theoretic approach, however the emphasis on the > approach taken by Davydov was (is) concrete -- the ideas are intended to be > experienced. I doubt it is a good idea to associate the two as sharing a > philosophy or core set of ideas. Davydov's approach entails a compact set > of understandings pertaining to the history of ideas, a unit of analysis > (of a domain), the presentation according to the participants (zpd etc), > the appropriate orientation, and subject familiarity (expertise). This is > all constellated in the experience, and might be considered a necessity for > any developmental approach. The subject matter appearance might be viewed > as abstract -- as a collection of notations about aspects of things -- but > the point of the developmental approach is to foster transformations in > ways of understanding, construing, thinking, etc. The emphasis is upon this > transformation, which is the dialectical aspect. The formal content is a > vehicle, it isn't the goal. > > Best, > Huw > > > > On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 at 21:39, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > >> Thanks so much for the ideas on the project, Ed. >> >> I began to think that the project will be more difficult than I thought. >> I think I need a math teacher who knows the mathematical theories very >> well. But it is very difficult to find such a teacher. Math teachers take >> math and education courses at the same time in Turkey. They may not know >> the theories of the discipline they teach very well because of the >> education they get in university. Knowing the recent developments in the >> field you teach is very important for developmental teaching. As all you >> know, quality of the content (scientific vs. everyday concepts) is >> important in developmental teaching. >> >> Ed, what you said about the abandonment of Davydov?s curriculum because >> of the teachers made me think about the ?New Math? curriculum movement in >> the USA. In articles and books about history of math education I read that >> After Russia launched the Sputnik 1, American public experienced a period >> of fear and anxiety about technological gap between the USA and Soviet >> Union. In order to boost the science education, a group of American >> mathematics professors prepared a new curriculum based on Bourbaki?s >> extremely abstract and formal mathematical theory. At first public welcomed >> the change. After a while, parents, teachers, policy makers opposed the >> change because the new curriculum was too far outside of students' ordinary >> experience. In the end, the curriculum was abandoned. By the way, Davydov >> too used Bourbaki?s mathematical theory to design his curriculum. >> >> Ay?e Toka? >> >> Edward Wall , 6 Eki 2019 Paz, 00:33 tarihinde ?unu >> yazd?: >> >>> Sorry as I saw this but was short of time. I recommend you take >>> careful note of what Huw says about ?instruction.? >>> >>> Anyway, most of the attempts re the Davydov ?curriculum? in the US >>> that I knew about have been abandoned because, it seems, ?qualified? >>> teachers were not readily available (and, in my opinion, that is very >>> unlikely to change). Perhaps the most substantial attempt in recent times >>> was at the University of Hawaii; there still may be some mention and a text >>> was ?promised', but I have never been able find out much and I have tried >>> several times. >>> That said, there are elementary curricula/instruction - and I only >>> mention this as an aside - that attempt to do substantial mathematics in a >>> somewhat dialogic manner; NYC, Ann Arbor, and the Netherlands are sites. >>> The difficult problem is that while one might argue - I don?t argue so - >>> that we have a theory of learning re mathematics, we don?t really have, >>> and this is an opinion, a robust one - there are some reasonable ones, but >>> they are anemic - about teaching or more importantly about studying (the >>> intersection of teaching and learning) mathematics. >>> >>> There are English translations of articles published here and >>> there by Davydov and collaborators about, I assume the thoughts behind the >>> curricula, the curriculum; e.g. 'The Object Source of the Concept of >>> Fractions.' I think I even have a paper somewhere where Davydov explains >>> some of the details of the curricular sequence. As regards instruction, I >>> would assume Galina Zuckerman would be the person to contact and I suspect >>> Anna Marjanovic-Shane would have useful things to say. Peg Griffin was the >>> first to give me a sketch of classroom interactions (very helpful in my >>> theorizing). >>> >>> There are several private schools in Russia (or where when I last >>> looked) and, while not touted as the most influential (which means little >>> in the climate around mathematics instruction), there is, at least, one >>> existent that still appears to follow Davydov. >>> >>> If you get something off the ground in English and ramp it up in >>> some reasonable manner, there are a lot of mathematical educators who >>> likely would flock to your door :) >>> >>> Ed Wall >>> >>> Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a >>> sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. >>> >>> > On Oct 4, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi, >>> > >>> > Thank you for taking the time and sending me the articles and the >>> books. They are great for the project because I did not have some of them. >>> What I needed to find was the textbooks for elementary students written by >>> Davydov and his associates. I guess I misworded my request. The citation >>> for the books are: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >>> (1999). Mathematics: Class 1. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>> University of New York. >>> > >>> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >>> (2000). Mathematics: Class 2. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>> University of New York. Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., >>> > >>> > Mikulina, G. G., Savyelyeva, O. V., and Tabachnikova, N. L. (2001). >>> Mathematics: 3rd Grade. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>> University of New York. >>> > >>> > >>> > These are English translations of the original books. I read Galina?s >>> email and I will look at the website she mentioned with a Russian friend >>> from my school. I could not understand anything right now because I don?t >>> speak Russian. I will post you about what I find in the website. Thank you >>> again for your immediate responses. I am happy to be part of this group. >>> > >>> > Lots of love from Turkey >>> > >>> > Ay?e Toka? >>> > >>> > Sel?uk University >>> > >>> > >>> > Huw Lloyd , 4 Eki 2019 Cum, 14:24 >>> tarihinde ?unu yazd?: >>> > A result! Thank you, Galina. >>> > >>> > Attached is a coarse google translation of the first doc. >>> > >>> > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:12, Galina Zuckerman < >>> galina.zuckerman@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > The publishing house "BINOM" recently published all math textbooks for >>> elementary school children, designed by Davydov and his followers. >>> > http://lbz.ru/books/936/ >>> > You can order the books through this publishing house. >>> > Manuals for teachers are available free: >>> > http://lbz.ru/metodist/authors/elkonin-davydov/6/ >>> > Enjoy! >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:04 PM Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>> > There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of >>> "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in >>> numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental >>> instruction (Kharkov school and others). >>> > >>> > Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this >>> material is the completely different approach to "instruction" >>> ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). >>> In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a >>> conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving >>> developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate >>> curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. >>> > >>> > A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails >>> pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry >>> the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made >>> advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of >>> engagement. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Huw >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >>> > Dear all, >>> > >>> > I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a >>> curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would >>> appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics >>> curriculum and math books in English or Russian. >>> > >>> > Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. >>> > >>> > Ayse Tokac >>> > >>> > Selcuk University >>> > >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191007/801efb2f/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Oct 7 11:52:52 2019 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 19:52:52 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Misconceptions may be actively used by engendering situations in which genuine thinking may begin. This is to distinguish the "juicy" vs "dry" pedagogy, commonly ascribed to STEM topics from outside (from an abstracted position). The learning is concrete because it is the situation that provides everything necessary. The experience of the problem provides its own answers. One has to learn to read the situation. But when I say "the situation provides everything", this situation is contingent upon the agent's impressing the circumstances upon themselves, i.e. the impressing is part of the situation. This cannot be achieved by merely showing up and becoming a passive audience. The real emphasis in developmental education entails this autonomy (both personal and shared), initiative and directed-ness, which of course need not be about mathematics, but something of relevance and interest. This is opposite to conventional schooling in which "learning to think" is treated as a side-effect. In developmental education, acquiring competence with the subject matter is a side-effect of, amongst other things, learning to objectively read situations. I suspect that the STEM commonalities emphasised are really about assimilating a model or paradigm which does not necessarily bring one into contact with the information (the informing) latent within situations, but amongst competent STEM practitioners there are of course those who take an active interest in how things work, and acquire more nuanced knowledge about the nature of their knowing. Hopefully these pointers are helpful. I don't mean to imply that these concerns are foreign to you, Ay?e. Rather it seems sensible to help keep things clear for other readers. Best, Huw On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 16:35, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > The dialogue we have here is helping me clear some points about the > project. > > Huw, you wrote that ?content is a vehicle not the goal?. Because of the > way we teach a content, or a concept may lead to a type of concept which is > outdated or false (or in Vygotsky?s words everyday concepts) in a formal > discipline. As the students move to higher grades, the content or concepts > become more formal and abstract in the way they are handled in the > discipline itself. Students may form misconceptions because of the way we > teach. They have difficulty learning the concepts in later grades. For > example, most students in Turkey do not want to take advanced math?s > courses. They fail in these courses because they cannot overcome their > misconceptions. They avoid the discipline altogether. For example, math?s > departments in universities have difficulty in getting students in Turkey. > Most students do not want to study math?s because they must study the > formal content at the university level. There is also the STEM (science, > technology, Engineering, Math?s) education, which is very popular now in > Turkey and all over the world. I think countries are in a race for > technological and scientific advancement. Even pre-K students are > encouraged to think like engineers. Even though I think taking things to > extreme points is unnecessary, conveying the content in the way a formal > discipline describes is the goal. As a teacher, I find it more difficult to > teach students who have false and uncomplete knowledge than students who > have no knowledge. Because I need to get them forget about their > misconceptions first. > > Best Ay?e > > Huw Lloyd , 7 Eki 2019 Pzt, 12:45 tarihinde > ?unu yazd?: > >> "Nicolas Bourbaki" is a pseudonym for a group. I am not familiar with the >> details of their set-theoretic approach, however the emphasis on the >> approach taken by Davydov was (is) concrete -- the ideas are intended to be >> experienced. I doubt it is a good idea to associate the two as sharing a >> philosophy or core set of ideas. Davydov's approach entails a compact set >> of understandings pertaining to the history of ideas, a unit of analysis >> (of a domain), the presentation according to the participants (zpd etc), >> the appropriate orientation, and subject familiarity (expertise). This is >> all constellated in the experience, and might be considered a necessity for >> any developmental approach. The subject matter appearance might be viewed >> as abstract -- as a collection of notations about aspects of things -- but >> the point of the developmental approach is to foster transformations in >> ways of understanding, construing, thinking, etc. The emphasis is upon this >> transformation, which is the dialectical aspect. The formal content is a >> vehicle, it isn't the goal. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 at 21:39, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >> >>> Thanks so much for the ideas on the project, Ed. >>> >>> I began to think that the project will be more difficult than I thought. >>> I think I need a math teacher who knows the mathematical theories very >>> well. But it is very difficult to find such a teacher. Math teachers take >>> math and education courses at the same time in Turkey. They may not know >>> the theories of the discipline they teach very well because of the >>> education they get in university. Knowing the recent developments in the >>> field you teach is very important for developmental teaching. As all you >>> know, quality of the content (scientific vs. everyday concepts) is >>> important in developmental teaching. >>> >>> Ed, what you said about the abandonment of Davydov?s curriculum because >>> of the teachers made me think about the ?New Math? curriculum movement in >>> the USA. In articles and books about history of math education I read that >>> After Russia launched the Sputnik 1, American public experienced a period >>> of fear and anxiety about technological gap between the USA and Soviet >>> Union. In order to boost the science education, a group of American >>> mathematics professors prepared a new curriculum based on Bourbaki?s >>> extremely abstract and formal mathematical theory. At first public welcomed >>> the change. After a while, parents, teachers, policy makers opposed the >>> change because the new curriculum was too far outside of students' ordinary >>> experience. In the end, the curriculum was abandoned. By the way, Davydov >>> too used Bourbaki?s mathematical theory to design his curriculum. >>> >>> Ay?e Toka? >>> >>> Edward Wall , 6 Eki 2019 Paz, 00:33 tarihinde ?unu >>> yazd?: >>> >>>> Sorry as I saw this but was short of time. I recommend you take >>>> careful note of what Huw says about ?instruction.? >>>> >>>> Anyway, most of the attempts re the Davydov ?curriculum? in the US >>>> that I knew about have been abandoned because, it seems, ?qualified? >>>> teachers were not readily available (and, in my opinion, that is very >>>> unlikely to change). Perhaps the most substantial attempt in recent times >>>> was at the University of Hawaii; there still may be some mention and a text >>>> was ?promised', but I have never been able find out much and I have tried >>>> several times. >>>> That said, there are elementary curricula/instruction - and I only >>>> mention this as an aside - that attempt to do substantial mathematics in a >>>> somewhat dialogic manner; NYC, Ann Arbor, and the Netherlands are sites. >>>> The difficult problem is that while one might argue - I don?t argue so - >>>> that we have a theory of learning re mathematics, we don?t really have, >>>> and this is an opinion, a robust one - there are some reasonable ones, but >>>> they are anemic - about teaching or more importantly about studying (the >>>> intersection of teaching and learning) mathematics. >>>> >>>> There are English translations of articles published here and >>>> there by Davydov and collaborators about, I assume the thoughts behind the >>>> curricula, the curriculum; e.g. 'The Object Source of the Concept of >>>> Fractions.' I think I even have a paper somewhere where Davydov explains >>>> some of the details of the curricular sequence. As regards instruction, I >>>> would assume Galina Zuckerman would be the person to contact and I suspect >>>> Anna Marjanovic-Shane would have useful things to say. Peg Griffin was the >>>> first to give me a sketch of classroom interactions (very helpful in my >>>> theorizing). >>>> >>>> There are several private schools in Russia (or where when I last >>>> looked) and, while not touted as the most influential (which means little >>>> in the climate around mathematics instruction), there is, at least, one >>>> existent that still appears to follow Davydov. >>>> >>>> If you get something off the ground in English and ramp it up in >>>> some reasonable manner, there are a lot of mathematical educators who >>>> likely would flock to your door :) >>>> >>>> Ed Wall >>>> >>>> Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and >>>> a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. >>>> >>>> > On Oct 4, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Hi, >>>> > >>>> > Thank you for taking the time and sending me the articles and the >>>> books. They are great for the project because I did not have some of them. >>>> What I needed to find was the textbooks for elementary students written by >>>> Davydov and his associates. I guess I misworded my request. The citation >>>> for the books are: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >>>> (1999). Mathematics: Class 1. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>>> University of New York. >>>> > >>>> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >>>> (2000). Mathematics: Class 2. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>>> University of New York. Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., >>>> > >>>> > Mikulina, G. G., Savyelyeva, O. V., and Tabachnikova, N. L. (2001). >>>> Mathematics: 3rd Grade. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>>> University of New York. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > These are English translations of the original books. I read Galina?s >>>> email and I will look at the website she mentioned with a Russian friend >>>> from my school. I could not understand anything right now because I don?t >>>> speak Russian. I will post you about what I find in the website. Thank you >>>> again for your immediate responses. I am happy to be part of this group. >>>> > >>>> > Lots of love from Turkey >>>> > >>>> > Ay?e Toka? >>>> > >>>> > Sel?uk University >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Huw Lloyd , 4 Eki 2019 Cum, 14:24 >>>> tarihinde ?unu yazd?: >>>> > A result! Thank you, Galina. >>>> > >>>> > Attached is a coarse google translation of the first doc. >>>> > >>>> > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:12, Galina Zuckerman < >>>> galina.zuckerman@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > The publishing house "BINOM" recently published all math textbooks >>>> for elementary school children, designed by Davydov and his followers. >>>> > http://lbz.ru/books/936/ >>>> > You can order the books through this publishing house. >>>> > Manuals for teachers are available free: >>>> > http://lbz.ru/metodist/authors/elkonin-davydov/6/ >>>> > Enjoy! >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:04 PM Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>> > There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of >>>> "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in >>>> numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental >>>> instruction (Kharkov school and others). >>>> > >>>> > Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this >>>> material is the completely different approach to "instruction" >>>> ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). >>>> In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a >>>> conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving >>>> developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate >>>> curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. >>>> > >>>> > A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails >>>> pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry >>>> the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made >>>> advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of >>>> engagement. >>>> > >>>> > Best, >>>> > Huw >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >>>> > Dear all, >>>> > >>>> > I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a >>>> curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would >>>> appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics >>>> curriculum and math books in English or Russian. >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. >>>> > >>>> > Ayse Tokac >>>> > >>>> > Selcuk University >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191007/12680f90/attachment.html From aysekan@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 01:34:03 2019 From: aysekan@gmail.com (Baloncuk Tr) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 11:34:03 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw, I agree with you. Students shouldn?t be a passive audience in instruction. But there are always several competing theories about concepts in formal disciplines and one of these theories becomes dominant in directing practice. Choosing one of them in shaping the instruction and curriculum is unavoidable. I know that choosing the most dominant one is not always good. My question is or the thing I am confused about is: Which one should we choose as developmental educators? How can we choose the one which can potentially encourage the kind of development we want in students? how can be sure that we are using the correct one? Best Ay?e Huw Lloyd , 7 Eki 2019 Pzt, 21:55 tarihinde ?unu yazd?: > Misconceptions may be actively used by engendering situations in which > genuine thinking may begin. This is to distinguish the "juicy" vs "dry" > pedagogy, commonly ascribed to STEM topics from outside (from an abstracted > position). The learning is concrete because it is the situation that > provides everything necessary. The experience of the problem provides its > own answers. One has to learn to read the situation. But when I say "the > situation provides everything", this situation is contingent upon the > agent's impressing the circumstances upon themselves, i.e. the impressing > is part of the situation. This cannot be achieved by merely showing up and > becoming a passive audience. > > The real emphasis in developmental education entails this autonomy (both > personal and shared), initiative and directed-ness, which of course need > not be about mathematics, but something of relevance and interest. This is > opposite to conventional schooling in which "learning to think" is treated > as a side-effect. In developmental education, acquiring competence with the > subject matter is a side-effect of, amongst other things, learning to > objectively read situations. > > I suspect that the STEM commonalities emphasised are really about > assimilating a model or paradigm which does not necessarily bring one into > contact with the information (the informing) latent within situations, but > amongst competent STEM practitioners there are of course those who take an > active interest in how things work, and acquire more nuanced knowledge > about the nature of their knowing. > > Hopefully these pointers are helpful. I don't mean to imply that these > concerns are foreign to you, Ay?e. Rather it seems sensible to help keep > things clear for other readers. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > > On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 16:35, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > >> The dialogue we have here is helping me clear some points about the >> project. >> >> Huw, you wrote that ?content is a vehicle not the goal?. Because of the >> way we teach a content, or a concept may lead to a type of concept which is >> outdated or false (or in Vygotsky?s words everyday concepts) in a formal >> discipline. As the students move to higher grades, the content or concepts >> become more formal and abstract in the way they are handled in the >> discipline itself. Students may form misconceptions because of the way we >> teach. They have difficulty learning the concepts in later grades. For >> example, most students in Turkey do not want to take advanced math?s >> courses. They fail in these courses because they cannot overcome their >> misconceptions. They avoid the discipline altogether. For example, math?s >> departments in universities have difficulty in getting students in Turkey. >> Most students do not want to study math?s because they must study the >> formal content at the university level. There is also the STEM (science, >> technology, Engineering, Math?s) education, which is very popular now in >> Turkey and all over the world. I think countries are in a race for >> technological and scientific advancement. Even pre-K students are >> encouraged to think like engineers. Even though I think taking things to >> extreme points is unnecessary, conveying the content in the way a formal >> discipline describes is the goal. As a teacher, I find it more difficult to >> teach students who have false and uncomplete knowledge than students who >> have no knowledge. Because I need to get them forget about their >> misconceptions first. >> >> Best Ay?e >> >> Huw Lloyd , 7 Eki 2019 Pzt, 12:45 tarihinde >> ?unu yazd?: >> >>> "Nicolas Bourbaki" is a pseudonym for a group. I am not familiar with >>> the details of their set-theoretic approach, however the emphasis on the >>> approach taken by Davydov was (is) concrete -- the ideas are intended to be >>> experienced. I doubt it is a good idea to associate the two as sharing a >>> philosophy or core set of ideas. Davydov's approach entails a compact set >>> of understandings pertaining to the history of ideas, a unit of analysis >>> (of a domain), the presentation according to the participants (zpd etc), >>> the appropriate orientation, and subject familiarity (expertise). This is >>> all constellated in the experience, and might be considered a necessity for >>> any developmental approach. The subject matter appearance might be viewed >>> as abstract -- as a collection of notations about aspects of things -- but >>> the point of the developmental approach is to foster transformations in >>> ways of understanding, construing, thinking, etc. The emphasis is upon this >>> transformation, which is the dialectical aspect. The formal content is a >>> vehicle, it isn't the goal. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 at 21:39, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks so much for the ideas on the project, Ed. >>>> >>>> I began to think that the project will be more difficult than I >>>> thought. I think I need a math teacher who knows the mathematical theories >>>> very well. But it is very difficult to find such a teacher. Math teachers >>>> take math and education courses at the same time in Turkey. They may not >>>> know the theories of the discipline they teach very well because of the >>>> education they get in university. Knowing the recent developments in the >>>> field you teach is very important for developmental teaching. As all you >>>> know, quality of the content (scientific vs. everyday concepts) is >>>> important in developmental teaching. >>>> >>>> Ed, what you said about the abandonment of Davydov?s curriculum because >>>> of the teachers made me think about the ?New Math? curriculum movement in >>>> the USA. In articles and books about history of math education I read that >>>> After Russia launched the Sputnik 1, American public experienced a period >>>> of fear and anxiety about technological gap between the USA and Soviet >>>> Union. In order to boost the science education, a group of American >>>> mathematics professors prepared a new curriculum based on Bourbaki?s >>>> extremely abstract and formal mathematical theory. At first public welcomed >>>> the change. After a while, parents, teachers, policy makers opposed the >>>> change because the new curriculum was too far outside of students' ordinary >>>> experience. In the end, the curriculum was abandoned. By the way, Davydov >>>> too used Bourbaki?s mathematical theory to design his curriculum. >>>> >>>> Ay?e Toka? >>>> >>>> Edward Wall , 6 Eki 2019 Paz, 00:33 tarihinde ?unu >>>> yazd?: >>>> >>>>> Sorry as I saw this but was short of time. I recommend you take >>>>> careful note of what Huw says about ?instruction.? >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, most of the attempts re the Davydov ?curriculum? in the >>>>> US that I knew about have been abandoned because, it seems, ?qualified? >>>>> teachers were not readily available (and, in my opinion, that is very >>>>> unlikely to change). Perhaps the most substantial attempt in recent times >>>>> was at the University of Hawaii; there still may be some mention and a text >>>>> was ?promised', but I have never been able find out much and I have tried >>>>> several times. >>>>> That said, there are elementary curricula/instruction - and I only >>>>> mention this as an aside - that attempt to do substantial mathematics in a >>>>> somewhat dialogic manner; NYC, Ann Arbor, and the Netherlands are sites. >>>>> The difficult problem is that while one might argue - I don?t argue so - >>>>> that we have a theory of learning re mathematics, we don?t really have, >>>>> and this is an opinion, a robust one - there are some reasonable ones, but >>>>> they are anemic - about teaching or more importantly about studying (the >>>>> intersection of teaching and learning) mathematics. >>>>> >>>>> There are English translations of articles published here and >>>>> there by Davydov and collaborators about, I assume the thoughts behind the >>>>> curricula, the curriculum; e.g. 'The Object Source of the Concept of >>>>> Fractions.' I think I even have a paper somewhere where Davydov explains >>>>> some of the details of the curricular sequence. As regards instruction, I >>>>> would assume Galina Zuckerman would be the person to contact and I suspect >>>>> Anna Marjanovic-Shane would have useful things to say. Peg Griffin was the >>>>> first to give me a sketch of classroom interactions (very helpful in my >>>>> theorizing). >>>>> >>>>> There are several private schools in Russia (or where when I >>>>> last looked) and, while not touted as the most influential (which means >>>>> little in the climate around mathematics instruction), there is, at least, >>>>> one existent that still appears to follow Davydov. >>>>> >>>>> If you get something off the ground in English and ramp it up in >>>>> some reasonable manner, there are a lot of mathematical educators who >>>>> likely would flock to your door :) >>>>> >>>>> Ed Wall >>>>> >>>>> Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and >>>>> a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. >>>>> >>>>> > On Oct 4, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi, >>>>> > >>>>> > Thank you for taking the time and sending me the articles and the >>>>> books. They are great for the project because I did not have some of them. >>>>> What I needed to find was the textbooks for elementary students written by >>>>> Davydov and his associates. I guess I misworded my request. The citation >>>>> for the books are: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >>>>> (1999). Mathematics: Class 1. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>>>> University of New York. >>>>> > >>>>> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >>>>> (2000). Mathematics: Class 2. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>>>> University of New York. Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., >>>>> > >>>>> > Mikulina, G. G., Savyelyeva, O. V., and Tabachnikova, N. L. (2001). >>>>> Mathematics: 3rd Grade. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>>>> University of New York. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > These are English translations of the original books. I read >>>>> Galina?s email and I will look at the website she mentioned with a Russian >>>>> friend from my school. I could not understand anything right now because I >>>>> don?t speak Russian. I will post you about what I find in the website. >>>>> Thank you again for your immediate responses. I am happy to be part of this >>>>> group. >>>>> > >>>>> > Lots of love from Turkey >>>>> > >>>>> > Ay?e Toka? >>>>> > >>>>> > Sel?uk University >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Huw Lloyd , 4 Eki 2019 Cum, 14:24 >>>>> tarihinde ?unu yazd?: >>>>> > A result! Thank you, Galina. >>>>> > >>>>> > Attached is a coarse google translation of the first doc. >>>>> > >>>>> > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:12, Galina Zuckerman < >>>>> galina.zuckerman@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > The publishing house "BINOM" recently published all math textbooks >>>>> for elementary school children, designed by Davydov and his followers. >>>>> > http://lbz.ru/books/936/ >>>>> > You can order the books through this publishing house. >>>>> > Manuals for teachers are available free: >>>>> > http://lbz.ru/metodist/authors/elkonin-davydov/6/ >>>>> > Enjoy! >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:04 PM Huw Lloyd >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of >>>>> "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in >>>>> numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental >>>>> instruction (Kharkov school and others). >>>>> > >>>>> > Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this >>>>> material is the completely different approach to "instruction" >>>>> ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). >>>>> In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a >>>>> conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving >>>>> developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate >>>>> curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. >>>>> > >>>>> > A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails >>>>> pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry >>>>> the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made >>>>> advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of >>>>> engagement. >>>>> > >>>>> > Best, >>>>> > Huw >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >>>>> > Dear all, >>>>> > >>>>> > I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on >>>>> a curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would >>>>> appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics >>>>> curriculum and math books in English or Russian. >>>>> > >>>>> > Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. >>>>> > >>>>> > Ayse Tokac >>>>> > >>>>> > Selcuk University >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191009/5351833a/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 09:40:02 2019 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 17:40:02 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, one would certainly want to consistently foster the same approach across a whole curriculum, and not merely subject-specific approaches. There is evidence in Davydov's texts in addition to many other translated papers. But the necessity for the agent to be active in their own transformation is often overlooked. The motivating force for any such undertaking, however, is liable to originate from personal experience. One does not need to read one hundred papers to appreciate the virtue of this approach. Personal experience can reveal this. The papers are useful for showing the systematic nature of the process. It is not an easy situation. For instance, my own children go to a conventional school, and no one else in my close familiar shares these appreciations. However, I have also had some experiences that put the whole project of "cognitive development" within a wider context, that relate, for example, some of my personal discoveries to texts in the Upanishads. And so I find myself being more open to a plurality of supportive environments and allowing for hazard and circumstance in which agencies are able to find their appropriate place. Best, Huw On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 09:37, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > Huw, I agree with you. Students shouldn?t be a passive audience in > instruction. But there are always several competing theories about concepts > in formal disciplines and one of these theories becomes dominant in > directing practice. Choosing one of them in shaping the instruction and > curriculum is unavoidable. I know that choosing the most dominant one is > not always good. My question is or the thing I am confused about is: Which > one should we choose as developmental educators? How can we choose the one > which can potentially encourage the kind of development we want in > students? how can be sure that we are using the correct one? > > > Best > > Ay?e > > Huw Lloyd , 7 Eki 2019 Pzt, 21:55 tarihinde > ?unu yazd?: > >> Misconceptions may be actively used by engendering situations in which >> genuine thinking may begin. This is to distinguish the "juicy" vs "dry" >> pedagogy, commonly ascribed to STEM topics from outside (from an abstracted >> position). The learning is concrete because it is the situation that >> provides everything necessary. The experience of the problem provides its >> own answers. One has to learn to read the situation. But when I say "the >> situation provides everything", this situation is contingent upon the >> agent's impressing the circumstances upon themselves, i.e. the impressing >> is part of the situation. This cannot be achieved by merely showing up and >> becoming a passive audience. >> >> The real emphasis in developmental education entails this autonomy (both >> personal and shared), initiative and directed-ness, which of course need >> not be about mathematics, but something of relevance and interest. This is >> opposite to conventional schooling in which "learning to think" is treated >> as a side-effect. In developmental education, acquiring competence with the >> subject matter is a side-effect of, amongst other things, learning to >> objectively read situations. >> >> I suspect that the STEM commonalities emphasised are really about >> assimilating a model or paradigm which does not necessarily bring one into >> contact with the information (the informing) latent within situations, but >> amongst competent STEM practitioners there are of course those who take an >> active interest in how things work, and acquire more nuanced knowledge >> about the nature of their knowing. >> >> Hopefully these pointers are helpful. I don't mean to imply that these >> concerns are foreign to you, Ay?e. Rather it seems sensible to help keep >> things clear for other readers. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 16:35, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >> >>> The dialogue we have here is helping me clear some points about the >>> project. >>> >>> Huw, you wrote that ?content is a vehicle not the goal?. Because of the >>> way we teach a content, or a concept may lead to a type of concept which is >>> outdated or false (or in Vygotsky?s words everyday concepts) in a formal >>> discipline. As the students move to higher grades, the content or concepts >>> become more formal and abstract in the way they are handled in the >>> discipline itself. Students may form misconceptions because of the way we >>> teach. They have difficulty learning the concepts in later grades. For >>> example, most students in Turkey do not want to take advanced math?s >>> courses. They fail in these courses because they cannot overcome their >>> misconceptions. They avoid the discipline altogether. For example, math?s >>> departments in universities have difficulty in getting students in Turkey. >>> Most students do not want to study math?s because they must study the >>> formal content at the university level. There is also the STEM (science, >>> technology, Engineering, Math?s) education, which is very popular now in >>> Turkey and all over the world. I think countries are in a race for >>> technological and scientific advancement. Even pre-K students are >>> encouraged to think like engineers. Even though I think taking things to >>> extreme points is unnecessary, conveying the content in the way a formal >>> discipline describes is the goal. As a teacher, I find it more difficult to >>> teach students who have false and uncomplete knowledge than students who >>> have no knowledge. Because I need to get them forget about their >>> misconceptions first. >>> >>> Best Ay?e >>> >>> Huw Lloyd , 7 Eki 2019 Pzt, 12:45 tarihinde >>> ?unu yazd?: >>> >>>> "Nicolas Bourbaki" is a pseudonym for a group. I am not familiar with >>>> the details of their set-theoretic approach, however the emphasis on the >>>> approach taken by Davydov was (is) concrete -- the ideas are intended to be >>>> experienced. I doubt it is a good idea to associate the two as sharing a >>>> philosophy or core set of ideas. Davydov's approach entails a compact set >>>> of understandings pertaining to the history of ideas, a unit of analysis >>>> (of a domain), the presentation according to the participants (zpd etc), >>>> the appropriate orientation, and subject familiarity (expertise). This is >>>> all constellated in the experience, and might be considered a necessity for >>>> any developmental approach. The subject matter appearance might be viewed >>>> as abstract -- as a collection of notations about aspects of things -- but >>>> the point of the developmental approach is to foster transformations in >>>> ways of understanding, construing, thinking, etc. The emphasis is upon this >>>> transformation, which is the dialectical aspect. The formal content is a >>>> vehicle, it isn't the goal. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 at 21:39, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks so much for the ideas on the project, Ed. >>>>> >>>>> I began to think that the project will be more difficult than I >>>>> thought. I think I need a math teacher who knows the mathematical theories >>>>> very well. But it is very difficult to find such a teacher. Math teachers >>>>> take math and education courses at the same time in Turkey. They may not >>>>> know the theories of the discipline they teach very well because of the >>>>> education they get in university. Knowing the recent developments in the >>>>> field you teach is very important for developmental teaching. As all you >>>>> know, quality of the content (scientific vs. everyday concepts) is >>>>> important in developmental teaching. >>>>> >>>>> Ed, what you said about the abandonment of Davydov?s curriculum >>>>> because of the teachers made me think about the ?New Math? curriculum >>>>> movement in the USA. In articles and books about history of math education >>>>> I read that After Russia launched the Sputnik 1, American public >>>>> experienced a period of fear and anxiety about technological gap between >>>>> the USA and Soviet Union. In order to boost the science education, a group >>>>> of American mathematics professors prepared a new curriculum based on >>>>> Bourbaki?s extremely abstract and formal mathematical theory. At first >>>>> public welcomed the change. After a while, parents, teachers, policy makers >>>>> opposed the change because the new curriculum was too far outside of >>>>> students' ordinary experience. In the end, the curriculum was abandoned. By >>>>> the way, Davydov too used Bourbaki?s mathematical theory to design his >>>>> curriculum. >>>>> >>>>> Ay?e Toka? >>>>> >>>>> Edward Wall , 6 Eki 2019 Paz, 00:33 tarihinde ?unu >>>>> yazd?: >>>>> >>>>>> Sorry as I saw this but was short of time. I recommend you take >>>>>> careful note of what Huw says about ?instruction.? >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, most of the attempts re the Davydov ?curriculum? in the >>>>>> US that I knew about have been abandoned because, it seems, ?qualified? >>>>>> teachers were not readily available (and, in my opinion, that is very >>>>>> unlikely to change). Perhaps the most substantial attempt in recent times >>>>>> was at the University of Hawaii; there still may be some mention and a text >>>>>> was ?promised', but I have never been able find out much and I have tried >>>>>> several times. >>>>>> That said, there are elementary curricula/instruction - and I >>>>>> only mention this as an aside - that attempt to do substantial mathematics >>>>>> in a somewhat dialogic manner; NYC, Ann Arbor, and the Netherlands are >>>>>> sites. The difficult problem is that while one might argue - I don?t argue >>>>>> so - that we have a theory of learning re mathematics, we don?t really >>>>>> have, and this is an opinion, a robust one - there are some reasonable >>>>>> ones, but they are anemic - about teaching or more importantly about >>>>>> studying (the intersection of teaching and learning) mathematics. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are English translations of articles published here and >>>>>> there by Davydov and collaborators about, I assume the thoughts behind the >>>>>> curricula, the curriculum; e.g. 'The Object Source of the Concept of >>>>>> Fractions.' I think I even have a paper somewhere where Davydov explains >>>>>> some of the details of the curricular sequence. As regards instruction, I >>>>>> would assume Galina Zuckerman would be the person to contact and I suspect >>>>>> Anna Marjanovic-Shane would have useful things to say. Peg Griffin was the >>>>>> first to give me a sketch of classroom interactions (very helpful in my >>>>>> theorizing). >>>>>> >>>>>> There are several private schools in Russia (or where when I >>>>>> last looked) and, while not touted as the most influential (which means >>>>>> little in the climate around mathematics instruction), there is, at least, >>>>>> one existent that still appears to follow Davydov. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you get something off the ground in English and ramp it up >>>>>> in some reasonable manner, there are a lot of mathematical educators who >>>>>> likely would flock to your door :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Ed Wall >>>>>> >>>>>> Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, >>>>>> and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. >>>>>> >>>>>> > On Oct 4, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Hi, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Thank you for taking the time and sending me the articles and the >>>>>> books. They are great for the project because I did not have some of them. >>>>>> What I needed to find was the textbooks for elementary students written by >>>>>> Davydov and his associates. I guess I misworded my request. The citation >>>>>> for the books are: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >>>>>> (1999). Mathematics: Class 1. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>>>>> University of New York. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >>>>>> (2000). Mathematics: Class 2. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>>>>> University of New York. Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Mikulina, G. G., Savyelyeva, O. V., and Tabachnikova, N. L. (2001). >>>>>> Mathematics: 3rd Grade. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >>>>>> University of New York. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > These are English translations of the original books. I read >>>>>> Galina?s email and I will look at the website she mentioned with a Russian >>>>>> friend from my school. I could not understand anything right now because I >>>>>> don?t speak Russian. I will post you about what I find in the website. >>>>>> Thank you again for your immediate responses. I am happy to be part of this >>>>>> group. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Lots of love from Turkey >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Ay?e Toka? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Sel?uk University >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Huw Lloyd , 4 Eki 2019 Cum, 14:24 >>>>>> tarihinde ?unu yazd?: >>>>>> > A result! Thank you, Galina. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Attached is a coarse google translation of the first doc. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:12, Galina Zuckerman < >>>>>> galina.zuckerman@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> > The publishing house "BINOM" recently published all math textbooks >>>>>> for elementary school children, designed by Davydov and his followers. >>>>>> > http://lbz.ru/books/936/ >>>>>> > You can order the books through this publishing house. >>>>>> > Manuals for teachers are available free: >>>>>> > http://lbz.ru/metodist/authors/elkonin-davydov/6/ >>>>>> > Enjoy! >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:04 PM Huw Lloyd < >>>>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> > There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of >>>>>> "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in >>>>>> numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental >>>>>> instruction (Kharkov school and others). >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this >>>>>> material is the completely different approach to "instruction" >>>>>> ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). >>>>>> In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a >>>>>> conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving >>>>>> developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate >>>>>> curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails >>>>>> pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry >>>>>> the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made >>>>>> advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of >>>>>> engagement. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Best, >>>>>> > Huw >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >>>>>> > Dear all, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on >>>>>> a curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would >>>>>> appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics >>>>>> curriculum and math books in English or Russian. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Ayse Tokac >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Selcuk University >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191009/80e15cbf/attachment.html From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 05:41:35 2019 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:41:35 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?V=2E_V=2E_Davydov=E2=80=99s_mathematics_curriculum?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Edward, I am very much interested, as I am trying to put together currently a project around Davydov's curriculum in Switzerland, which would include if possible doing translations in English of some basic Russian curriculum books. >From the expertise of the list, can I correctly assume that there is currently no complete translation of Davydov's mathematics books? Best regards, LK Le dim. 13 oct. 2019 ? 13:57, Edward Wall a ?crit : > All > > I?m taking this off list assuming that there is not all that much > interest. Let me know otherwise. > > Ed > > Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a > sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. > > On Oct 6, 2019, at 3:36 PM, Baloncuk Tr wrote: > > Thanks so much for the ideas on the project, Ed. > > I began to think that the project will be more difficult than I thought. I > think I need a math teacher who knows the mathematical theories very well. > But it is very difficult to find such a teacher. Math teachers take math > and education courses at the same time in Turkey. They may not know the > theories of the discipline they teach very well because of the education > they get in university. Knowing the recent developments in the field you > teach is very important for developmental teaching. As all you know, > quality of the content (scientific vs. everyday concepts) is important in > developmental teaching. > > Ed, what you said about the abandonment of Davydov?s curriculum because of > the teachers made me think about the ?New Math? curriculum movement in the > USA. In articles and books about history of math education I read that > After Russia launched the Sputnik 1, American public experienced a period > of fear and anxiety about technological gap between the USA and Soviet > Union. In order to boost the science education, a group of American > mathematics professors prepared a new curriculum based on Bourbaki?s > extremely abstract and formal mathematical theory. At first public welcomed > the change. After a while, parents, teachers, policy makers opposed the > change because the new curriculum was too far outside of students' ordinary > experience. In the end, the curriculum was abandoned. By the way, Davydov > too used Bourbaki?s mathematical theory to design his curriculum. > > Ay?e Toka? > > Edward Wall , 6 Eki 2019 Paz, 00:33 tarihinde ?unu yazd?: > >> Sorry as I saw this but was short of time. I recommend you take >> careful note of what Huw says about ?instruction.? >> >> Anyway, most of the attempts re the Davydov ?curriculum? in the US >> that I knew about have been abandoned because, it seems, ?qualified? >> teachers were not readily available (and, in my opinion, that is very >> unlikely to change). Perhaps the most substantial attempt in recent times >> was at the University of Hawaii; there still may be some mention and a text >> was ?promised', but I have never been able find out much and I have tried >> several times. >> That said, there are elementary curricula/instruction - and I only >> mention this as an aside - that attempt to do substantial mathematics in a >> somewhat dialogic manner; NYC, Ann Arbor, and the Netherlands are sites. >> The difficult problem is that while one might argue - I don?t argue so - >> that we have a theory of learning re mathematics, we don?t really have, >> and this is an opinion, a robust one - there are some reasonable ones, but >> they are anemic - about teaching or more importantly about studying (the >> intersection of teaching and learning) mathematics. >> >> There are English translations of articles published here and there >> by Davydov and collaborators about, I assume the thoughts behind the >> curricula, the curriculum; e.g. 'The Object Source of the Concept of >> Fractions.' I think I even have a paper somewhere where Davydov explains >> some of the details of the curricular sequence. As regards instruction, I >> would assume Galina Zuckerman would be the person to contact and I suspect >> Anna Marjanovic-Shane would have useful things to say. Peg Griffin was the >> first to give me a sketch of classroom interactions (very helpful in my >> theorizing). >> >> There are several private schools in Russia (or where when I last >> looked) and, while not touted as the most influential (which means little >> in the climate around mathematics instruction), there is, at least, one >> existent that still appears to follow Davydov. >> >> If you get something off the ground in English and ramp it up in >> some reasonable manner, there are a lot of mathematical educators who >> likely would flock to your door :) >> >> Ed Wall >> >> Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a >> sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. >> >> > On Oct 4, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > Thank you for taking the time and sending me the articles and the >> books. They are great for the project because I did not have some of them. >> What I needed to find was the textbooks for elementary students written by >> Davydov and his associates. I guess I misworded my request. The citation >> for the books are: >> > >> > >> > >> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >> (1999). Mathematics: Class 1. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >> University of New York. >> > >> > Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., Mikulina, G. G., and Saveleva, O. V. >> (2000). Mathematics: Class 2. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >> University of New York. Davydov, V. V., Gorbov, S. F., >> > >> > Mikulina, G. G., Savyelyeva, O. V., and Tabachnikova, N. L. (2001). >> Mathematics: 3rd Grade. Edited by J. Schmittau. Binghamton, NY: State >> University of New York. >> > >> > >> > These are English translations of the original books. I read Galina?s >> email and I will look at the website she mentioned with a Russian friend >> from my school. I could not understand anything right now because I don?t >> speak Russian. I will post you about what I find in the website. Thank you >> again for your immediate responses. I am happy to be part of this group. >> > >> > Lots of love from Turkey >> > >> > Ay?e Toka? >> > >> > Sel?uk University >> > >> > >> > Huw Lloyd , 4 Eki 2019 Cum, 14:24 tarihinde >> ?unu yazd?: >> > A result! Thank you, Galina. >> > >> > Attached is a coarse google translation of the first doc. >> > >> > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:12, Galina Zuckerman < >> galina.zuckerman@gmail.com> wrote: >> > The publishing house "BINOM" recently published all math textbooks for >> elementary school children, designed by Davydov and his followers. >> > http://lbz.ru/books/936/ >> > You can order the books through this publishing house. >> > Manuals for teachers are available free: >> > http://lbz.ru/metodist/authors/elkonin-davydov/6/ >> > Enjoy! >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:04 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> > There are example fragments in Peter Moxhay's 2008 translation of >> "Problems of Developmental Instruction". There are example fragments in >> numerous JREEP papers too, from psychologists practicing developmental >> instruction (Kharkov school and others). >> > >> > Although not strictly part of a course "content', the core of this >> material is the completely different approach to "instruction" >> ("instruction" is perhaps a poor choice of label, given its connotations). >> In that respect, if one tried to transplant merely the curriculum to a >> conventional approach, it would be clear that one was not achieving >> developmental instruction. Hence, being able to work out an appropriate >> curriculum might be considered a minimum qualification for delivering it. >> > >> > A while back, Galina Zuckerman (cc'd), contributed a few emails >> pertaining to her work, which might be considered as continuing to carry >> the flag for Davydov's approach. My impression was that she had made >> advances on the dialogic side of things with respect to dynamics of >> engagement. >> > >> > Best, >> > Huw >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 16:58, Baloncuk Tr wrote: >> > Dear all, >> > >> > I am a lecturer at Selcuk University in Turkey. I am focused now on a >> curriculum project on math?s education in primary grades. I would >> appreciate it if you can tell me how to find V. V. Davydov?s mathematics >> curriculum and math books in English or Russian. >> > >> > Thanks, and I hope to hear from you. >> > >> > Ayse Tokac >> > >> > Selcuk University >> > >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191013/9e289daa/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Oct 17 19:13:14 2019 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 19:13:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Job Posting: California State Sacramento, Child Development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Dr. Elizabeth Fein Date: Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 6:27 PM Subject: Job Posting: California State Sacramento, Child Development To: ADVERTISEMENT ? CHILD DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM COLLEGE OF EDUCATION CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, SACRAMENTO Tenure-Track Assistant Professor in Child Development 2020? 2021 VACANCY POSITION #F0149P Child Development: California State University, Sacramento invites applications for a tenure track position in Child Development at the Assistant Professor rank beginning Fall 2020. Required qualifications include an earned doctorate in Child Development, Human Development, Applied Developmental Psychology, Developmental Psychology, Developmental Science, Early Childhood Education, Educational Psychology, Psychology, or an equivalent program (ABD considered ? all degree requirements must be completed by August 2020). Candidates must demonstrate a strong background in developmental theory and research methods (quantitative and/or qualitative); a focus or emphasis in a specific research domain in child and/or adolescent development; and knowledge of and experience working with children, adolescents, students and/or families from diverse backgrounds.Students in our department come from diverse academic, ethnic, and socioeconomic backgrounds; faculty and staff are committed to equity and diversity programs that ensure student success in our disciplines. The Child Development Program faculty prefer applicants who have a clearly defined program of research and demonstrated success in research and scholarly activities; personal characteristics evidencing leadership potential and strong interpersonal skills in a multicultural environment; research experience with diverse populations; a strong background in application of developmental theory to specific settings (e.g., education, family, community), and who demonstrate experience and effectiveness in college level, undergraduate and/or graduate level teaching. Responsibilities include teaching undergraduate and graduate courses in Child and adolescent Development; maintaining a rigorous program of research; supervising and sponsoring student scholarship; assisting with advising and curriculum development and assessment; working collegially with other faculty in a multicultural environment; and contributing to service in the program, college, university, and community. Salary is dependent upon qualifications and professional experience. To apply, submit 1) a cover letter describing interest and qualifications for this position; 2) a current curriculum vitae; 3) a statement of teaching philosophy (that incorporates a diverse perspective in teaching) and recent data on teaching effectiveness or teaching portfolio if available; 4) a statement of research interests; 5) a diversity statement; 6) a writing sample (e.g., a recent publication); 7) the names and contact information of three references who can speak to the candidate?s professional qualifications (no letters required); 8) unofficial transcripts of all graduate-level work (official copies required if offered the position). Screening of applications to begin on January 10, 2020. Position is open until filled. California State University, Sacramento is an employer with a strong institutional commitment to the principle of diversity in all areas https://www.csus.edu/diversity-inclusion/. Applications are only accepted through the California State University, Sacramento jobs website located at https://csus.peopleadmin.com/. A/EEO Employer. Clery Act statistics available. Mandated reporter requirements. Background check (including criminal) required. -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191017/ddd1ae46/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Job announcement for Fall 2020 9.20.19.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 109669 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191017/ddd1ae46/attachment.pdf From Ann.Terry@education.govt.nz Sun Oct 20 17:44:54 2019 From: Ann.Terry@education.govt.nz (Ann Terry) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 00:44:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Please unsubscribe me from this list Message-ID: <115610E29AD7784B99B8D0A2A4BD25ED01870C757D@D1-PRO-EXC002.moe.govt.nz> Many thanks Ann Ann Terry | Psychologist DDI +64 9 436 8983 | Mobile +64 21 241 9046 10 Awaroa River Road, Whangarei education.govt.nz We shape an education system that delivers equitable and excellent outcomes He mea t?rai e m?tou te m?tauranga kia rangatira ai, kia mana taurite ai ?na huanga [cid:image001.png@01D58815.B846B4F0] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191021/860d3c69/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 7214 bytes Desc: image001.png Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191021/860d3c69/attachment.png From zamorskabeata@gmail.com Wed Oct 30 00:13:07 2019 From: zamorskabeata@gmail.com (Beata Zamorska) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 08:13:07 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Congress 2020 website Message-ID: <5887A2AE-A77A-4F9E-B9FA-F9426D75977E@gmail.com> I want to make sure that the congress address given on the ISCAR website is correct. https://iscar2020ufrn.com.br/ We wanted to send our application to Congress ISCAR 2020, but for several days we have a problem with this website- it doesn't work. Maybe there is another ISCAR Congress website in Brazil? Beata Zamorska -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191030/b614674d/attachment.html From tararatnam@gmail.com Wed Oct 30 01:02:54 2019 From: tararatnam@gmail.com (Tara Ratnam) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 13:32:54 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congress 2020 website In-Reply-To: <5887A2AE-A77A-4F9E-B9FA-F9426D75977E@gmail.com> References: <5887A2AE-A77A-4F9E-B9FA-F9426D75977E@gmail.com> Message-ID: You could write to the organizers of the congress: contato@atualeventos.com OR Adriane Cenci : contact.iscar2020@gmail.com Good Luck with your submission best tara On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 12:46 PM Beata Zamorska wrote: > > I want to make sure that the congress address given on the ISCAR website > is correct. https://iscar2020ufrn.com.br/ > > We wanted to send our application to Congress ISCAR 2020, but for several > days we have a problem with this website- it doesn't work. > Maybe there is another ISCAR Congress website in Brazil? > > > > Beata Zamorska > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191030/334940ae/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Wed Oct 30 03:35:53 2019 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:35:53 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congress 2020 website In-Reply-To: <5887A2AE-A77A-4F9E-B9FA-F9426D75977E@gmail.com> References: <5887A2AE-A77A-4F9E-B9FA-F9426D75977E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <97e39590-049c-d576-91e5-7f5015fe7dda@marxists.org> The site is working fine for me. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 30/10/2019 6:13 pm, Beata Zamorska wrote: > > ?I want to make sure that the congress address given on > the ISCAR website is correct. https://iscar2020ufrn.com.br/ > > We wanted to send our application to Congress ISCAR 2020, > but for several days we have a problem with this website- > it doesn't work. > Maybe there is another ISCAR Congress website in Brazil? > > > > Beata Zamorska -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191030/8505f993/attachment.html From a.j.gil@ils.uio.no Wed Oct 30 03:55:05 2019 From: a.j.gil@ils.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 10:55:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congress 2020 website In-Reply-To: <97e39590-049c-d576-91e5-7f5015fe7dda@marxists.org> References: <5887A2AE-A77A-4F9E-B9FA-F9426D75977E@gmail.com> <97e39590-049c-d576-91e5-7f5015fe7dda@marxists.org> Message-ID: Same here, works fine from my end. Cheers, Alfredo From: on behalf of Andy Blunden Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Wednesday, 30 October 2019 at 11:41 To: "xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congress 2020 website The site is working fine for me. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden Hegel for Social Movements Home Page On 30/10/2019 6:13 pm, Beata Zamorska wrote: I want to make sure that the congress address given on the ISCAR website is correct. https://iscar2020ufrn.com.br/ We wanted to send our application to Congress ISCAR 2020, but for several days we have a problem with this website- it doesn't work. Maybe there is another ISCAR Congress website in Brazil? Beata Zamorska -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20191030/f5323c95/attachment.html From kplakits@gmail.com Wed Oct 30 22:34:10 2019 From: kplakits@gmail.com (Katerina Plakitsi) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:34:10 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Congress 2020 website In-Reply-To: <5887A2AE-A77A-4F9E-B9FA-F9426D75977E@gmail.com> References: <5887A2AE-A77A-4F9E-B9FA-F9426D75977E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I reported this to the organizers. The answer copied below: "Katerina, we have no problems with our website. I'm accessing it without problems. On Monday the submission system was unstable, but now it is working. No one else has reported problems. The website address mentioned is correct. http://www.iscar2020ufrn.com.br/ thanks for reporting. Please, could you tell her to try again?" I think you can try again. ???? ???, 30 ??? 2019 ???? 09:16 ? ??????? Beata Zamorska < zamorskabeata@gmail.com> ??????: > > I want to make sure that the congress address given on the ISCAR website > is correct. https://iscar2020ufrn.com.br/ > > We wanted to send our application to Congress ISCAR 2020, but for several > days we have a problem with this website- it doesn't work. > Maybe there is another ISCAR Congress website in Brazil? > > > > Beata Zamorska > -- Katerina Plakitsi *ISCAR President* *Professor of Science Education* *Head of the Dept. of E**arly Childhood Education* *School of Education * *University of Ioannina, Greece* *tel. +302651005771* *fax. +302651005842* *mobile.phone +306972898463* *Skype name: katerina.plakitsi3* https://www.iscar.org/ http://users.uoi.gr/kplakits www.epoque-project.eu http://bdfprojects.wixsite.com/mindset http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isZAbefnRmo&t=7s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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