[Xmca-l] Re: Does an exchange generate a profit?

[Harshad Dave]

Here I put my views and request you to read it carefully.

1. The subject matter of the exchange process and generation of mutual
benefits (profit) is influenced by a permutations and combinations of
innumerable parameters where many of them are absolutely beyond our control
and varies on time line. It is not possible to calculate them with the help
of any formula. Neither it is known nor it will be in future. While
contemplating/pondering and debating on such interesting issues, I believe,
it is a challenging task to refrain us from getting trapped/involved into a
matter that gets terminated at "mission impossible". The direction of our
discussion is not the calculation of *profit*.
2. Somewhere in your last reply I read a word "cheated". Please trust me,
there might be weakness in my explanation as English is not my mother
tongue, but there is no *cheating*.
3. I request you to read my reply to Greg and you will have better clarity
where the discussion is targeted.
__Harshad

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 12:30 PM David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:

> Thanks for your reply, Dave.
>
>
>
> Greg asked you: “What is meant by "profit"? Is this defined simply as
> "mutual beneficence" or is it something more like "surplus value" or even
> "surplus capital"?”
>
> I’ve assumed you meant the latter, which requires some sort of metric to
> measure “surplus.”
>
> The first part of my note suggested two different bases for this metric,
> hence two different ways to calculate whether the exchange is equitable, or
> if one side has profited and the other lost.
>
>
>
> You suggested, “If we are not aware of or not in a position to determine
> an exchange ratio that puts the exchange into the column of equal exchange
> then we will not be able to determine if it is unequal.”
>
> But here is where I introduced a psychological dimension, as being in a
> position to determine an exchange is not objectively determinable. I can
> feel you’ve cheated me based on some kind of inner metric, even if I am not
> able to or in a position to make it explicit. On the other hand, if I
> perceive us as being in solidarity with one another, then I do not do
> calculations that measure my individual benefit, only our mutual
> benefit—perhaps this is the ideal of communism. I agree with you that the
> question of whether this sense of solidarity is rooted in ideology
> (political) or familial bonding (biological) is beyond the trajectory of
> the discussion.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Harshad Dave
> *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2019 11:43 PM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Does an exchange generate a profit?
>
>
>
> David K.,
>
>
>
> I copy pest your reply and put my points in bracket.
>
>
>
>  Yes, according to two criteria:
>
>  [Here I presume that "Yes" means... such exchange generates profit on
> either side but as per given two criteria.]
>
> 1. The time/labor taken by one party to produce the exchange unit exceeds
> that of the other party who can then be said to be making a profit.
>
> 2. Production time is equal, but capital investment / skill level training
> demanded by one party exceeds that of the other who therefore can be seen
> as profiting off the investment of the other.
>
> [I understand after going through above two points that above two points
> are the parameters that influence the exchange ratio that finally gets
> determined in an exchange process.]
>
> Along with the original question
>
> “Does this exchange process have possibility to generate a profit on
> either side?”
>
> One might also ask,
>
> “What determines if this exchange is perceived by either party as being an
> unequal exchange (i.e., as yielding a profit for one party)?” [At which
> exchange ratio we shall label it as an *equal exchange*? If we are not
> aware of or not in a position to determine an exchange ratio that puts the
> exchange into the column of equal exchange then we will not be able to
> determine if it is unequal.]
>
> A critical element is history: If one party demands an increase from what
> has historically been the exchange rate, this might be seen by the other
> party as reaping unfair profits.
>
> [It is the feeling of the either party as you say above. However, here we
> discuss the out come of our contemplation on the exchange process.]
>
> I think the only way to avoid the possibility of perceptions of unfairness
> is when familial relations exist between the two parties, and the well being
> of each to the other is as important as the well being of self. [To some
> extent you are touching one more parameter that might influence the process
> of determination of exchange ratio between fish and wheat.]
>
> An alternative/variation of this at the societal level is an established
> class ideology in which unequal benefit is seen as natural and/or as
> necessary. [I feel.... unconsciously you are pointing towards some
> unknown parameters that play a critical role to determine an exchange ratio
> between two commodities and inflict inequality. You have treated (and
> accepted) the same as class ideology as well as they are natural and /or
> necessary. This is debatable but at present we shall not take it in our
> discussion as it might divert our main line of discussion.]
>
> Wish I knew more about this, and hope others will enlighten.
>
> NB: Part of the reply you will find in my reply to Greg.
>
>
>
>
>
> Harshad Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 10:11 PM David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
> Yes, according to two criteria:
>
> 1. The time/labor taken by one party to produce the exchange unit exceeds
> that of the other party who can then be said to be making a profit.
>
> 2. Production time is equal, but capital investment / skill level training
> demanded by one party exceeds that of the other who therefore can be seen
> as profiting off the investment of the other.
>
> Along with the original question
>
> “Does this exchange process have possibility to generate a profit on
> either side?”
>
> One might also ask,
>
> “What determines if this exchange is perceived by either party as being an
> unequal exchange (i.e., as yielding a profit for one party)?”
>
> A critical element is history: If one party demands an increase from what
> has historically been the exchange rate, this might be seen by the other
> party as reaping unfair profits.
>
> I think the only way to avoid the possibility of perceptions of unfairness
> is when familial relations exist between the two parties, and the wellbeing
> of each to the other is as important as the wellbeing of self.
>
> An alternative/variation of this at the societal level is an established
> class ideology in which unequal benefit is seen as natural and/or as
> necessary.
>
> Wish I knew more about this, and hope others will enlighten.
>
> David
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Harshad Dave
> *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2019 8:23 AM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Does an exchange generate a profit?
>
> Hi,
>
> Here I present one example.
>
> There is a fisherman living in a habitation. Generally, he catches fishes
> and exchanges part of the quantity against wheat with a farmer living in
> the habitation.
>
> “Does this exchange process have possibility to generate a profit on
> either side?”
>
> Harshad Dave
>
> .
>
>
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