[Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Wed Jan 30 22:46:54 PST 2019
Harshad, one might just as well say that there is inequality
among mountains because some are higher than others, or for
that matter that there is inequality among numbers. If that
was the drift of your original question, obviously, we who
can understand the English language can see inequality
everywhere. I thought you were asking about inequality in
the sense of justice and injustice.
Annalie, I was not quite right in what I said about states.
In traditional communities there are definite norms, ethical
precepts, which have a cultural existence and are maintained
by the traditional non-state structures. But in such
communities, injustice or inequality could only be
experienced by individuals - perhaps due to a grudge or some
rivalry, so that the relevant cultural norms were violated.
The point is that *injustice *can only arise *where there is
justice*, inequality where equality, in whatever formulation
it is given in that community, is upheld as a *norm*, and
consequently, can be violated. But it is only in states
where whole classes of people can experience injustice.
Questions of the distinction between law and rights and the
issue of civil disobedience are very complex. But obviously,
injustice and inequality are not solved by going to a "state
of nature" but only by "improving" the functioning of the
state. If the state has been captured by a sectional
interest, then it is not state in the proper sense of the
word at all, not a "true state."
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 30/01/2019 11:48 pm, Harshad Dave wrote:
> Hi,
> I give you few cases that anyone might have observed while
> viewing documentary on Discovery, Animal Planet, National
> Geographic and other like channels.
>
> *Case 1* Generally lions make their living in a group. It
> is observed that lioness takes active part in the hunting
> and preying a kill. There are many cases (most of the
> cases) where total efforts, toll and trouble are taken by
> one or more lioness to kill a prey. But as soon as the
> leader of the group approaches there, all the lioness and
> young cubs have to leave the carcass and the lion eats
> making full stomach without care of others share. Does
> this act amount to an inequality?
>
> *Case 2 *A female Cheetah with her two or three cubs preys
> a deer with her hard effort and unfortunately a hyena
> spots her. The hyena rushes to the place and the hungry
> Cheetah had to abandon the carcass and it is grabbed by
> the hyenas. Does this act amount to an inequality?
>
> *Case 3 *I recall one documentary. A group of African wild
> dogs were inhabiting at one place. There were two females
> who gave birth to few puppies. One female was young and
> second one was elder then the first one and she was cheeky
> as well as experienced leader. She grabbed all the puppies
> of the young female dog and nourished them with her own,
> but she never allow the original young mother near to her
> puppies. This continued for many days. Events and
> occasions in the documentary showed the measurable
> condition of the young mother without her kids/puppies was
> searching single occasion or opportunity to feed her own
> kids if the older female remains inadvertent or remiss.
> Unfortunately she never got such opportunity and her milk
> dried out. Does this act amount to an inequality?
> There are innumerable cases where powerful member of the
> group does not permit others access to the female to mate
> with other males of the same group. The inferior or the
> male who are unable to fight with the leader one has to
> frequently express a gesture of his body language
> accepting all the superiority of the leader male. Does
> this act amount to an inequality?
> When nature itself has not design two animals equal, and
> two animals of the same specie are different in many ways
> then it seems that claim for equality is against the
> natural law even in human society.
> Regards,
> Harshad Dave
>
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 6:02 PM Annalie Pistorius
> <annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za
> <mailto:annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za> wrote:
>
> Yes it seems that all states and states of minds
> ultimately become oppressive, or narrow-minded – we
> are born into that narrowness/states (they pre-existed
> before us) and some of us then rebel against that
> (what we come to know and experience about it) and
> create other intersubjective norms; but some others
> don’t know about that neither do they participate in
> that; somewhere then a leader is claiming to take care
> of promises but does something else.
>
> Objective things cannot be described, their
> descriptions are inter-subjective (which includes the
> subjective, if that is possible, I don’t think it is
> possible to think on your own to form a subjective
> opinion really because it is done against a norm). The
> map is not the territory (Bateson). We don’t see the
> territory, we see the map and make up different maps
> of the same territory; thus they are all limited and
> as narrow as our intersubjective creations.
>
> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>] *On Behalf
> Of *Andy Blunden
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 30, 2019 10:15 AM
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in
> wild life system?
>
> Where there is a state there is most likely inequality
> and injustice, Annalie.
> Where do you see inequality and injustice as arising from?
>
> andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 30/01/2019 7:03 pm, Annalie Pistorius wrote:
>
> What about the inter-cultural historical?
>
> Annalie
>
> (Im a clinical psychologist from South Africa)
>
> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Martin Packer
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:18 PM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in
> wild life system?
>
> Well, I was going to add that culture would be
> generally considered an intersubjective
> phenomenon, rather than subjective or objective.
> So it could be said that what this discussion
> group is about — the C in XMCA — is intersubjectivity.
>
> Should intersubjectivity be transcended? I think,
> Andy, that you may be reading the word as some
> kind of merging or sharing of subjectivities.
> Which is indeed how the word has been used here
> not long ago. But Charles Taylor, for example,
> defined intersubjectivity as meanings and norms
> that exist in practices, not in individuals'
> minds. The materiality of culture — material
> artefacts — seems to me to be a very good example
> of this.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 29, 2019, at 9:51 AM, Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
> wrote:
>
> It's my view, Martin, that in making actions,
> including intersubjective
> actions,/essentially/artefact-mediated, Vygotsky
> transcended "intersubjectivity." His citing of
> Marx citing Hegel on the "cunning of reason" is no
> accident.
>
> Hegel has what he calls (in typical Hegel style)
> the "syllogism of action." This is the culminating
> concept of the Logic making the transition to the
> Absolute Idea and Nature. Hegel points out, and
> Marx picks up on this, that this means that every
> action is mediated by material culture. Hegel says
> "the plough is more honourable than anything
> produced by its means." For Marx, this is about
> the importance of ownership of the means of
> production. For Vygotsky, it is what makes
> Cultural Psychology what it is.
>
> Emphasising the culture in the middle in no way
> minimises the constructive role of language use,
> but it means that the language itself plays,
> maybe. the more "honourable" role. :)
>
> andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 30/01/2019 1:41 am, Martin Packer wrote:
>
> There was a general recognition in the social
> sciences (including philosophy) some time ago
> that it is crucial to recognize the existence
> and importance of “intersubjective”
> phenomena. Language, for example, is not
> subjective, it is intersubjective. As Andy
> notes, subjectivity and even objectivity
> (think Latour’s analysis of science in
> Laboratory Life) arise from and are dependent
> upon intersubjective phenomena.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 29, 2019, at 12:15 AM, Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
> When you get the electric chair for murdering
> someone that is not a linguistic construct.
>
> andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 29/01/2019 2:49 pm, Adam Poole (16517826)
> wrote:
>
> Perhaps it may be more appropriate to use
> the term 'quasi-objective form', as the
> medium through which concepts like
> inequality and injustice are made
> objective, language, is itself inherently
> subjective. For example, justice can be
> given objective form in law, but the law
> itself is comprised of language, customs,
> traditions, beliefs, etc. The
> manifestation of an objective form is not
> universal, but will differ depending on
> cultural context. Hence quasi-objective.
> Concepts like inequality are given
> objective form, but it doesn't mean that
> they are objective in nature, due to the
> mediating role of language.
>
> Adam
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>on
> behalf of Andy Blunden<andyb@marxists.org>
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>
> *Sent:*29 January 2019 08:16:35
> *To:*xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: Do we find
> Inequalities in wild life system?
>
> Mmm, "subjective" is a polysemous word,
> Huw. It is not a matter of precision but
> of relativity. "Inequality" is a famously
> contested concept, as is "injustice," but
> its contestation is necessarily in a
> social context and with social content.
> Justice and equality are given objective
> form in law and social policy in definite,
> really-existing states or organisations
> challenging for state power, not the
> opinion of individuals.
>
> andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 29/01/2019 1:50 am, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
> It isn't "subjective", Andy. Rather it
> is limited to a certain construal. One
> can be quite precise and objective
> about that construal.
>
> Huw
>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 14:14, Andy
> Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
> I can't agree that with your
> suggestion, Huw, that inequality
> (in the meaning with which Harshad
> used it) is something subjective,
> in the eye of the beholder. Such a
> view would be very pernicious
> politically. The fact is that
> states have emerged and developed
> over many centuries so as to makes
> objective certain concepts of
> justice, among which are various
> qualified and nuances notions of
> equality. This is not figment of
> my imagination.
>
> andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 29/01/2019 12:59 am, Huw Lloyd
> wrote:
>
> We find "wild life" systems
> that are imbalanced and
> subject to radical changes.
>
> Inequality is a
> perceptual/cognitive construct
> and predicated on an
> ontological scope. We find the
> condition of inequality (or
> comparison) in our thinking
> and behaviour. Every living
> thing "finds" inequalities. We
> do not find inequality, we
> find the awareness of inequality.
>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 08:17,
> James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com
> <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Should you find
> inequality within a
> wildlife system, that must
> be a political,
> ideological precept!
>
> James
>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at
> 07:56, James Ma
> <jamesma320@gmail.com
> <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Not only is it
> meaningless but also
> preposterous.
> To maintain that all
> members of the same
> species are equal, as
> Anne Moir and David
> Jessel put it, is to
> "build a society based
> on a biological and
> scientific lie".
>
> James
>
> PS: I'm apolitical -
> anything political,
> ideological just
> doesn't speak to me!
>
> */_______________________________________________________/*
>
> */James Ma
> /*/Independent
> Scholar//https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
> /
>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at
> 05:27, Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
> wrote:
>
> Harshad,
>
> "Inequality" is a
> meaningless
> concept when
> referred to
> Nature. Likewise
> "Injustice."
>
> Justice and
> equality are
> relevant only to
> the extent that
> the subjects are
> living in an
> 'artificial'
> world, out of
> Nature. Natural
> disasters and the
> plenitude of
> Nature have these
> dimensions only to
> the extent they
> are imposed on or
> made available to
> different classes
> of people by the
> social system.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 28/01/2019 4:00
> pm, Harshad Dave
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I am working
> on one
> article. I
> want to know
> your views on
> following query.
>
> "Do we find
> Inequalities
> exists in wild
> life system?"
>
> Your views
> will help me
> in my work.
>
> Regards,
>
> Image removed
> by sender.
>
> Harshad Dave
>
> Email:hhdave15@gmail.com
> <mailto:hhdave15@gmail.com>
>
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> Martin
>
> /"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman
> or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with
> Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware
> that my partner does not understand anything in
> the matter, and I end usually with the feeling
> that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)/
>
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