[Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?

Wed Jan 30 04:29:16 PST 2019

Yes it seems that all states and states of minds ultimately become 
oppressive, or narrow-minded – we are born into that narrowness/states (they 
pre-existed before us) and some of us then rebel against that (what we come 
to know and experience about it) and create other intersubjective norms; but 
some others don’t know about that neither do they participate in that; 
somewhere then a leader is claiming to take care of promises but does 
something else.

Objective things cannot be described, their descriptions are 
inter-subjective (which includes the subjective, if that is possible, I don’t 
think it is possible to think on your own to form a subjective opinion 
really because it is done against a norm). The map is not the territory 
(Bateson). We don’t see the territory, we see the map and make up different 
maps of the same territory; thus they are all limited and as narrow as our 
intersubjective creations.

From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
[mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 10:15 AM
To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?

Where there is a state there is most likely inequality and injustice, 
Annalie.
Where do you see inequality and injustice as arising from?

andy

  _____

Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm

On 30/01/2019 7:03 pm, Annalie Pistorius wrote:

What about the inter-cultural historical?

Annalie

(Im a clinical psychologist from South Africa)

From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
[mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin Packer
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:18 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?

Well, I was going to add that culture would be generally considered an 
intersubjective phenomenon, rather than subjective or objective. So it could 
be said that what this discussion group is about — the C in XMCA — is 
intersubjectivity.

Should intersubjectivity be transcended? I think, Andy, that you may be 
reading the word as some kind of merging or sharing of subjectivities. Which 
is indeed how the word has been used here not long ago. But Charles Taylor, 
for example, defined intersubjectivity as meanings and norms that exist in 
practices, not in individuals' minds. The materiality of culture — material 
artefacts — seems to me to be a very good example of this.

Martin

On Jan 29, 2019, at 9:51 AM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:

It's my view, Martin, that in making actions, including intersubjective 
actions, essentially artefact-mediated, Vygotsky transcended 
"intersubjectivity." His citing of Marx citing Hegel on the "cunning of 
reason" is no accident.

Hegel has what he calls (in typical Hegel style) the "syllogism of action." 
This is the culminating concept of the Logic making the transition to the 
Absolute Idea and Nature. Hegel points out, and Marx picks up on this, that 
this means that every action is mediated by material culture. Hegel says 
"the plough is more honourable than anything produced by its means." For 
Marx, this is about the importance of ownership of the means of production. 
For Vygotsky, it is what makes Cultural Psychology what it is.

Emphasising the culture in the middle in no way minimises the constructive 
role of language use, but it means that the language itself plays, maybe. 
the more "honourable" role. :)

andy

  _____

Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm

On 30/01/2019 1:41 am, Martin Packer wrote:

There was a general recognition in the social sciences (including 
philosophy) some time ago that it is crucial to recognize the existence and 
importance of “intersubjective” phenomena.  Language, for example, is not 
subjective, it is intersubjective. As Andy notes, subjectivity and even 
objectivity (think Latour’s analysis of science in Laboratory Life) arise 
from and are dependent upon intersubjective phenomena.

Martin

On Jan 29, 2019, at 12:15 AM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:

When you get the electric chair for murdering someone that is not a 
linguistic construct.

andy

  _____

Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm

On 29/01/2019 2:49 pm, Adam Poole (16517826) wrote:

Perhaps it may be more appropriate to use the term 'quasi-objective form', 
as the medium through which concepts like inequality and injustice are made 
objective, language, is itself inherently subjective. For example, justice 
can be given objective form in law, but the law itself is comprised of 
language, customs, traditions, beliefs, etc. The manifestation of an 
objective form is not universal, but will differ depending on cultural 
context. Hence quasi-objective. Concepts like inequality are given objective 
form, but it doesn't mean that they are objective in nature, due to the 
mediating role of language.

Adam

  _____

From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> 
on behalf of Andy Blunden  <mailto:andyb@marxists.org> <andyb@marxists.org>
Sent: 29 January 2019 08:16:35
To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?

Mmm, "subjective" is a polysemous word, Huw. It is not a matter of precision 
but of relativity. "Inequality" is a famously contested concept, as is 
"injustice," but its contestation is necessarily in a social context and 
with social content. Justice and equality are given objective form in law 
and social policy in definite, really-existing states or organisations 
challenging for state power, not the opinion of individuals.

andy

  _____

Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm

On 29/01/2019 1:50 am, Huw Lloyd wrote:

It isn't "subjective", Andy. Rather it is limited to a certain construal. 
One can be quite precise and objective about that construal.

Huw

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 14:14, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:

I can't agree that with your suggestion, Huw, that inequality (in the 
meaning with which Harshad used it) is something subjective, in the eye of 
the beholder. Such a view would be very pernicious politically. The fact is 
that states have emerged and developed over many centuries so as to makes 
objective certain concepts of justice, among which are various qualified and 
nuances notions of equality. This is not  figment of my imagination.

andy

  _____

Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm

On 29/01/2019 12:59 am, Huw Lloyd wrote:

We find "wild life" systems that are imbalanced and subject to radical 
changes.

Inequality is a perceptual/cognitive construct and predicated on an 
ontological scope. We find the condition of inequality (or comparison) in 
our thinking and behaviour. Every living thing "finds" inequalities. We do 
not find inequality, we find the awareness of inequality.

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 08:17, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:

Should you find inequality within a wildlife system, that must be a 
political, ideological precept!

James

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 07:56, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:

Not only is it meaningless but also preposterous. To maintain that all 
members of the same species are equal, as Anne Moir and David Jessel put it, 
is to "build a society based on a biological and scientific lie".

James

PS: I'm apolitical - anything political, ideological just doesn't speak to 
me!

_______________________________________________________

James Ma  Independent Scholar https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 05:27, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:

Harshad,

"Inequality" is a meaningless concept when referred to Nature. Likewise 
"Injustice."

Justice and equality are relevant only to the extent that the subjects are 
living in an 'artificial' world, out of Nature. Natural disasters and the 
plenitude of Nature have these dimensions only to the extent they are 
imposed on or made available to different classes of people by the social 
system.

Hope that helps.

Andy

  _____

Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm

On 28/01/2019 4:00 pm, Harshad Dave wrote:

Hi,

I am working on one article. I want to know your views on following query.

"Do we find Inequalities exists in wild life system?"

Your views will help me in my work.

Regards,

Imageremoved bysender.

Harshad Dave

Email: hhdave15@gmail.com

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Martin

"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss 
matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my 
partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with 
the feeling that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)

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