[Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Tue Jan 29 14:26:25 PST 2019
Martin, I distinguish between intersubjectivity and the CHAT
standpoint because the literature I have seen which tries to
build a social theory on the basis of subject-subject
interactions, ignores the artefacts being used, and in
particular, the pre-existence of these artefacts relative to
the interactions, and their materiality. (I admit that I
have come to this conclusion from my study of Hegel
interpretations, which is a limited domain. But I do also
see it in strands of social theory as such.) This is
achieved by either subsuming the mediating artefact into the
subject itself (e.g. my voice is a part of me, the subject,
as is my hand) or taking the mediator as the object rather
than a means. Such interpretations fail to explain why today
can be any different from yesterday, etc.
We cold say that mediated interactions are still
intersubjective, we just use things for our interactions
with other subjects, but I see CHAT as a further really
existing step beyond the step which the intersubjective turn
made relative to methodological individualism and abstract
social theory.
Ontologically, the distinction is this: the /meaning /of an
artefact is established intersubjectively, so to speak, but
/the artefact itself/ is still material and objective, and
this constrains the meanings which can be attached to it.
For example, the sheer existence of 400 million guns in the
USA is a social problem over and above the place of guns in
the thinking and behaviour of so many Americans. A
government simply cannot get rid of them. For example, the
propensity of people in some countries to suffer in natural
disasters is not just due to the poor preparedness of their
people and governments, but the objective vulnerability of
people due to the state of infrastructure. There is a limit
on how good your education system will be if you have no
teachers, no books and no schools. Of course the simple
objective existence of the relevant things is not the whole
business, but it is something else. And the /nature/ of the
constellation of existing artefacts is something else, over
and above their existence. EG all the school books are
written in a foreign language, etc. The material artefacts
is a product of past history, you could say, which was
intersubjective, but intersubjectivity ends as soon as the
interaction ends, but the artefact often lives on.
I think CHAT has something important to contribute here.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 30/01/2019 2:17 am, Martin Packer wrote:
> Well, I was going to add that culture would be generally
> considered an intersubjective phenomenon, rather than
> subjective or objective. So it could be said that what
> this discussion group is about — the C in XMCA — is
> intersubjectivity.
>
> Should intersubjectivity be transcended? I think, Andy,
> that you may be reading the word as some kind of merging
> or sharing of subjectivities. Which is indeed how the word
> has been used here not long ago. But Charles Taylor, for
> example, defined intersubjectivity as meanings and norms
> that exist in practices, not in individuals' minds. The
> materiality of culture — material artefacts — seems to me
> to be a very good example of this.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>> On Jan 29, 2019, at 9:51 AM, Andy Blunden
>> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>
>> It's my view, Martin, that in making actions, including
>> intersubjective actions,/essentially/artefact-mediated,
>> Vygotsky transcended "intersubjectivity." His citing of
>> Marx citing Hegel on the "cunning of reason" is no accident.
>> Hegel has what he calls (in typical Hegel style) the
>> "syllogism of action." This is the culminating concept of
>> the Logic making the transition to the Absolute Idea and
>> Nature. Hegel points out, and Marx picks up on this, that
>> this means that every action is mediated by material
>> culture. Hegel says "the plough is more honourable than
>> anything produced by its means." For Marx, this is about
>> the importance of ownership of the means of production.
>> For Vygotsky, it is what makes Cultural Psychology what
>> it is.
>> Emphasising the culture in the middle in no way minimises
>> the constructive role of language use, but it means that
>> the language itself plays, maybe. the more "honourable"
>> role. :)
>> andy
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> Andy Blunden
>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>> On 30/01/2019 1:41 am, Martin Packer wrote:
>>> There was a general recognition in the social sciences
>>> (including philosophy) some time ago that it is crucial
>>> to recognize the existence and importance of
>>> “intersubjective” phenomena. Language, for example, is
>>> not subjective, it is intersubjective. As Andy notes,
>>> subjectivity and even objectivity (think Latour’s
>>> analysis of science in Laboratory Life) arise from and
>>> are dependent upon intersubjective phenomena.
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jan 29, 2019, at 12:15 AM, Andy Blunden
>>>> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> When you get the electric chair for murdering someone
>>>> that is not a linguistic construct.
>>>> andy
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>> On 29/01/2019 2:49 pm, Adam Poole (16517826) wrote:
>>>>> Perhaps it may be more appropriate to use the term
>>>>> 'quasi-objective form', as the medium through which
>>>>> concepts like inequality and injustice are made
>>>>> objective, language, is itself inherently subjective.
>>>>> For example, justice can be given objective form in
>>>>> law, but the law itself is comprised of language,
>>>>> customs, traditions, beliefs, etc. The manifestation
>>>>> of an objective form is not universal, but will differ
>>>>> depending on cultural context. Hence quasi-objective.
>>>>> Concepts like inequality are given objective form, but
>>>>> it doesn't mean that they are objective in nature, due
>>>>> to the mediating role of language.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adam
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>on
>>>>> behalf of Andy Blunden<andyb@marxists.org>
>>>>> *Sent:*29 January 2019 08:16:35
>>>>> *To:*xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild
>>>>> life system?
>>>>> Mmm, "subjective" is a polysemous word, Huw. It is not
>>>>> a matter of precision but of relativity. "Inequality"
>>>>> is a famously contested concept, as is "injustice,"
>>>>> but its contestation is necessarily in a social
>>>>> context and with social content. Justice and equality
>>>>> are given objective form in law and social policy in
>>>>> definite, really-existing states or organisations
>>>>> challenging for state power, not the opinion of
>>>>> individuals.
>>>>> andy
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>>> On 29/01/2019 1:50 am, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>>>>>> It isn't "subjective", Andy. Rather it is limited to
>>>>>> a certain construal. One can be quite precise and
>>>>>> objective about that construal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Huw
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 14:14, Andy Blunden
>>>>>> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't agree that with your suggestion, Huw,
>>>>>> that inequality (in the meaning with which
>>>>>> Harshad used it) is something subjective, in the
>>>>>> eye of the beholder. Such a view would be very
>>>>>> pernicious politically. The fact is that states
>>>>>> have emerged and developed over many centuries so
>>>>>> as to makes objective certain concepts of
>>>>>> justice, among which are various qualified and
>>>>>> nuances notions of equality. This is not figment
>>>>>> of my imagination.
>>>>>> andy
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>>>> On 29/01/2019 12:59 am, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>>>>>>> We find "wild life" systems that are imbalanced
>>>>>>> and subject to radical changes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Inequality is a perceptual/cognitive construct
>>>>>>> and predicated on an ontological scope. We find
>>>>>>> the condition of inequality (or comparison) in
>>>>>>> our thinking and behaviour. Every living thing
>>>>>>> "finds" inequalities. We do not find inequality,
>>>>>>> we find the awareness of inequality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 08:17, James Ma
>>>>>>> <jamesma320@gmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Should you find inequality within a wildlife
>>>>>>> system, that must be a political,
>>>>>>> ideological precept!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> James
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 07:56, James Ma
>>>>>>> <jamesma320@gmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not only is it meaningless but also
>>>>>>> preposterous. To maintain that all
>>>>>>> members of the same species are equal,
>>>>>>> as Anne Moir and David Jessel put it, is
>>>>>>> to "build a society based on a
>>>>>>> biological and scientific lie".
>>>>>>> James
>>>>>>> PS: I'm apolitical - anything political,
>>>>>>> ideological just doesn't speak to me!
>>>>>>> */_______________________________________________________/*
>>>>>>> /*James Ma *Independent
>>>>>>> Scholar//https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> /
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 05:27, Andy
>>>>>>> Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Harshad,
>>>>>>> "Inequality" is a meaningless
>>>>>>> concept when referred to Nature.
>>>>>>> Likewise "Injustice."
>>>>>>> Justice and equality are relevant
>>>>>>> only to the extent that the subjects
>>>>>>> are living in an 'artificial' world,
>>>>>>> out of Nature. Natural disasters and
>>>>>>> the plenitude of Nature have these
>>>>>>> dimensions only to the extent they
>>>>>>> are imposed on or made available to
>>>>>>> different classes of people by the
>>>>>>> social system.
>>>>>>> Hope that helps.
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>>>>> On 28/01/2019 4:00 pm, Harshad Dave
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am working on one article. I want
>>>>>>>> to know your views on following query.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Do we find Inequalities exists in
>>>>>>>> wild life system?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your views will help me in my work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Harshad Dave
>>>>>>>> Email:hhdave15@gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <mailto:hhdave15@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>
>
>
> Martin
>
> /"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr.
> Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber,
> I become at once aware that my partner does not understand
> anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling
> that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)/
>
>
>
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