[Xmca-l] Re: Passions, (Projects?) and Interests
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Sat Jan 12 15:41:28 PST 2019
As I see it, the problems Leontyev has with "need" derive
from his taking the object of activity to be "simply
objective." By this I mean that not only is the object
external, and in that sense objective (and can only be
fulfilled by processes which exist in the wider social and
material world, and not just a psychic process), but it is
not problematic - it is determined by the community as a
whole (in turn taken as an unproblematic whole) and if an
individual is pursuing some other conception of the object
then they are mistaken. There is nothing mediate between the
individual and the community as a whole (i.e., the state -
the individual does not belong to an interest group, for
example). The individual's need is determined by psychic
reflection on the object of activity (and in that sense both
subjective and objective) but it gets slippery only when you
enquire about the object of activity, which ought to provide
for the material needs of the individual in order to sustain
the society, but of course it is not so simple!
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 13/01/2019 4:40 am, mike cole wrote:
> I know this may sound obtuse, Huw. But the concept of need
> in both LSV and ANL has always
> seemed very slippery to me. Presumably a long term need is
> to obtain enough food, shelter......
> but that involves social transactions that are culturally
> mediated. Reproduction is a species need in one way and
> I guess my felt need to check out how Arsenal is faring is
> short term. But its long term equivalent? Seems more than
> epistemic/ontological. I am not sure where sexual
> interests fit in.
>
> Can this be explained in a manner that this struggling
> person can understand?
>
> mike
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 8:49 AM Huw Lloyd
> <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Vygotsky likens them to temporary needs.
>
> Huw
>
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 00:36, mike cole
> <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:
>
> Ah, so interests are the affective ingredient that
> accompanies the point of.view? A subjtive object?
> Mike
>
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM James Ma
> <jamesma320@gmail.com
> <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Interests have much to do with intentionality
> - and there is always a subjective angle from
> which the object (interests) is viewed - I
> don't recall coming across Vygotsky alluding
> to this.
> To illustrate my point, I use the term
> "evidentiality" (which in linguistics refers
> to statements being explicitly marked to show
> the source of the speaker's information, e.g.
> "I witnessed this"). It goes without saying
> that privileged access bears on one's interest
> (a state of being interested, or an act of
> taking an interest, in something). Thus, one
> person's interest is always a "secondary
> evidential" from another person's viewpoint,
> in which case another person has to make
> inference through sense perception, mediated
> by contextual factors (e.g. interpersonal,
> ideational and textual).
>
> James
>
> */_______________________________________________________/*
>
> /*James Ma *Independent Scholar
> //https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
> /
>
>
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 16:48, mike cole
> <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:
>
> So interests are curiosity, Huw?
> Didn’t “Psychology of Art” have something
> to to do with Emotions, David?
> 10 Volumes (!) of LSV! Wow.
> Mike
>
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 5:58 AM Huw Lloyd
> <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> For Vygotsky, interests are
> intentions. Although he recognises
> that Lewin's structural theory is
> inadequate with regard to discerning
> the essence of interests, his own
> writings in that chapter focus upon
> developmental patterns of interests,
> and he does not get around to being
> explicit about what is behind interest
> -- what is really driving it. To a
> certain extent this is answered with
> the social situation of development,
> but unless one reads between the lines
> there is a great deal of vagueness,
> such as with reference to
> psychological functions.
>
> I have a rather large theoretical
> paper I am completing on this to
> compliment some empirical work. What I
> state is that it is epistemology (and
> ontology) that is the interest behind
> interest.
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
>
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 12:08, Moises
> Esteban-Guitart
> <moises.esteban@udg.edu
> <mailto:moises.esteban@udg.edu>> wrote:
>
> That's an interesting question
> that I asked myself when I read
> EDUCATIONAL
> PSYCHOLOGY by Vygotsky "from one
> interest of the child’s to a new
> interest
> —that is the rule” (Vygotsky,
> 1926/1997a, p. 86). My conclusion
> was that
> it depends on the biographical
> moment (see pp. 393 to 396 document
> attached). By the way, in his
> "Educational Psychology" he wrote
> on sex too
> ("Education on the sex instinct",
> pp. 71-77), however I didn't explore
> this.
> m
>
> > David,
> >
> > I would imagine the reference to
> interest relates to the STUDENTS'
> > interest: meaning that whatever
> way it is approached it needs to be
> > introduced from and in relation
> to the students' current
> > knowledge/interest/developmental
> stage as opposed to being imposed in a
> > decontextualised way.
> >
> > At least I think that's what's
> going on here...
> >
> > Julie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Sorry, Rob. I mean fifteen
> hours a year. The government has
> itinerant
> >> specialists who lecture from
> school to school. There is even a
> bus for
> >> visiting the provinces.
> >>
> >> In contrast, Vygotsky says:
> >>
> >> a) No class with ONLY sex
> education--since anatomical,
> sexual, and
> >> sociocultural maturation do not
> coincide in modern humans, sex
> education
> >> is
> >> not a science of a natural
> whole, where the object of study
> is given to
> >> us.
> >>
> >> b) No classes WITHOUT sex
> education--since sex education is
> simply
> >> learning
> >> how to be with people who may
> be of sexual interest, all classes
> must
> >> have
> >> some form of sexual
> "enlightenment".
> >>
> >> c) No sex education without
> INTEREST. But what, exactly, is
> interest?
> >>
> >> David Kellogg
> >> Sangmyung University
> >>
> >> New in *Language and
> Literature*, co-authored with Fang Li:
> >> Mountains in labour: Eliot’s
> ‘Atrocities’ and Woolf’s
> >> alternatives
> >> Show all authors
> >>
> >>
> https://doi.org/10.1177/0963947018805660
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 5:40 PM
> robsub@ariadne.org.uk
> <mailto:robsub@ariadne.org.uk>
> >> <robsub@ariadne.org.uk
> <mailto:robsub@ariadne.org.uk>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Fifteen hours a week???
> >>>
> >>> I hope it's not all practicals
> - the teachers would be exhausted.
> >>>
> >>> In the UK nowadays the very
> inadequate thing we do in schools
> is called
> >>> Sex and Relationship
> Education. The "and Relationship"
> bit was tacked
> >>> on
> >>> some time in the 90s or maybe
> early 2000s, if I recall rightly. They
> >>> missed
> >>> a trick there - they should
> have put it the other way round
> >>> "Relationship
> >>> and Sex Education". A very
> large lump of the population go into a
> >>> tabloid
> >>> induced panic as soon as they
> hear the word "sex", especially when
> >>> related
> >>> to children, and then fail to
> hear the "and relationship" it.
> >>>
> >>> Rob
> >>>
> >>> On 11/01/2019 07:14, David
> Kellogg wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Last July in Geneva, I got
> into a bit of a tiff with my hosts
> over
> >>> whether
> >>> or not Vygotsky had a theory
> of emotion. The commonplace position,
> >>> taken
> >>> by
> >>> almost all high Vygotskyans
> including my francophone friends,
> is that
> >>> Vygotsky spent too much of his
> life developing a theory of
> thinking and
> >>> intellect, complexes and
> concept formation, and when he
> turned his
> >>> attention to the lower and
> higher emotions, that dark side of
> the moon,
> >>> it
> >>> was too late. He worked out a
> kind of prolegomena, in the form of
> >>> "Teaching
> >>> on the Emotions" (or "Study of
> the Emotions" or perhaps "The Doctrine
> >>> of
> >>> the Emotions"--you can read
> what he did in Volume 6 of the
> Collected
> >>> Works). And the rest was silence.
> >>>
> >>> Here in Korea we are bringing
> out our tenth volume of Vygotsky's
> works
> >>> (see attached cover, with
> blurbs from Renee Van der Veer and
> Irina
> >>> Leopoldoff-Martin). It's all
> about sex education, which is a very
> >>> important
> >>> topic here in Korea, because
> we have fifteen hours of sex
> education a
> >>> week
> >>> mandated by the government,
> but the ministry of education has
> more or
> >>> less
> >>> withdrawn the downloadable
> materials for this, not for the usual
> >>> reasons
> >>> but instead because of
> criticism from Human Rights Watch
> (it is
> >>> terribly
> >>> sexist, homophobic, and just
> plain ignorant).
> >>>
> >>> Vygosky's view is that sex
> education (which he calls "sexual
> >>> enlightenment") has to be
> integrated into ALL subjects (so
> for example
> >>> the
> >>> test of a good sex
> enlightenment programme would be
> one that ensures
> >>> equal
> >>> participation of boys and
> girls in math and physics), it has
> to start
> >>> as
> >>> soon as preschoolers enter
> primary school, and it has to be
> >>> INTERESTING.
> >>> In
> >>> other words, instead of the
> "sex education without sex"
> programme we
> >>> have
> >>> here in South Korea, we need
> non-sex education...but with a
> good deal
> >>> of
> >>> sex.
> >>>
> >>> All of which has got me
> thinking about the problem my
> Geneva friends
> >>> set
> >>> before me. I think that
> Vygotsky really DOES have a theory
> that unites
> >>> passions and interests. It's
> like that book by Hirschmann on
> how the
> >>> unity
> >>> of passion and interest gave
> rise to capitalism, but instead it
> is all
> >>> about how passions, shared
> projects, and interests give rise
> to sexual
> >>> love, and it is more or less
> right before we would expect to
> find it:
> >>> in
> >>> the Pedology of the
> Adolescent, right before the
> chapter on concept
> >>> formation, which shows how
> complexes (which are categories
> for others)
> >>> become concepts (categories
> for themselves). This is the
> chapter on
> >>> interests, which explains how
> passions (which are sensations in
> >>> themselves)
> >>> become interests: that is,
> emotions for themselves. (There is
> already a
> >>> passable translation of this
> in Volume Five of the CW). The
> only thing
> >>> is
> >>> there is a need for a
> transitional form--a feeling with
> others. Andy's
> >>> idea
> >>> of the Project?
> >>>
> >>> David Kellogg
> >>> Sangmyung University
> >>>
> >>> New in *Language and
> Literature*, co-authored with Fang Li:
> >>> Mountains in labour: Eliot’s
> ‘Atrocities’ and Woolf’s
> >>> alternatives
> >>> Show all authors
> >>>
> >>>
> https://doi.org/10.1177/0963947018805660
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Dra. Julie Waddington
> > Departament de Didàctiques
> Específiques
> > Facultat d'Educació i Psicologia
> > Universitat de Girona
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Moisès Esteban Guitart
> Dpt de psicologia
> Director - Institut de Recerca
> Educativa -
> Facultat d'Educació i Psicologia
> Universitat de Girona
>
> Grup de recerca "Cultura i
> Educació" (GRC 2017SGR19)
> https://culturaieducacio.cat
>
> Responsable a la Universitat de
> Girona del Postgrau
> Interuniversitari en
> Psicologia de l'educació MIPE-DIPE
> http://mipe.psyed.edu.es/ca
>
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