[Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation

Tue Aug 27 09:24:40 PDT 2019

Greg,

Doing justice to their stories and being in a place to tell them well is part of what holds me back. Which versions of their stories do I tell? Interestingly, I was just speaking with Carrie Lobman about similar ideas for the classroom (an advantage of being in NYC) and am trying to organize to have her to come to my college. I take your advice to heart.

Best,
Lara

> On Aug 27, 2019, at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Lara,
> 
> Your note was truly heartbreaking. From the students who are afraid to connect or care to the student who attended lab meetings for the sense of community but then was hit by a car and died (and particularly poignant given the Beattie quote at the end).
> 
> But heartbreaking as it was, I think these are stories that need to be told - perhaps even more so than the research proper that you are doing (with no disrespect intended toward your research). I suspect that you could tell us a lot more about each of these students (and perhaps there are some that you might not be able to say so much about but that may be very telling in itself). So why not find a way to tell these stories? There are lots of academic outlets that would accept this kind of qualitative/descriptive/narrative detail without worrying about the theory of things. Chronicle of Higher Ed would seem a natural place to get a conversation going about students' experiences at community colleges. And, of course there are non-academic outlets since you'll easily get ten times the readership. 
> 
> Regarding the issues that you raise, one humble suggestion from far away (the worst place from which to make suggestions), I wonder if, for some at least, a Holzman-ian or similar approach might be useful? (apologies for leaving out Fred Newman and others by naming it as such). I wonder if rather than asking them to communicate in the language of the classroom, allow them to communicate artistically. And if not in on-stage performance, then in poetry or prose or painting or sculpture. Anything to get them out of that jail cell of academic language of the classroom and which makes so many so mute. 
> 
> [And just to be clear, I understand that there are no magic bullets and the assumptions that I have that lie behind this suggestion are probably at least 60% wrong. I also appreciate the basic sociocultural insight that these challenges are intractable problems that have more to do with the world that your students live in than with the students themselves in any psychologistic/individualistic sense. So, as they say, ...with a grain of salt.]
> 
> In sympathy and sadness,
> greg
> 
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 8:57 AM Lara Beaty <larabeaty@gmail.com <mailto:larabeaty@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Thank you for the references!
> 
> Greg, the most vulnerable students are ones I can’t get to participate in my research, so most of my understanding of them comes from the classroom. They do not speak, they do not ask for help or clarification, and though they do some of the work, they do it half-heartedly.   Sometimes, I can make a small connection that can turn things around, but only if I’m on top of it and not distracted by other students the other demands at the college. One student told me she couldn’t present in front of the class, and so she presented to me in my office, and we talked a lot then about her severe anxiety, but she didn’t continue the relationship, and I don’t know what happened after the semester. They are afraid to connect or care. 
> 
> One student, whom I got to participate in my research, remained quiet, sharing little, but showing up, and who, I learned at one point, didn’t have money to come to meetings, so I gave him a metrocard with a little money, and I had hopes but he drifted away. Another man, who was an older vet, came to research group meetings out of loneliness. He never participated in discussions of the research itself but talked a lot about his frustrations with college and not being able to do math (the other students’ responses to him were interesting too), but he kept coming back to meetings anyway, happy to be listened to by young people. He was ready to graduate but couldn’t complete the math requirement so he left, and then he was hit by a car and died. It’s not a lot to get a clear pattern from, but my difficulty connecting with them is consistent, and when I can connect, they have difficulties finding value in the activities we’re doing. So identity and (lack of) agency have seemed to be the most useful concepts. Perhaps because it is mostly psychology majors,  I’ve found a surprising number of students wanting to talk about their diagnoses or their parents’ diagnoses, which they cling to. The students who are angry are the ones who want to talk about contradictions in college, and they represent a different kind of vulnerability, but I worry about them less.
> 
> Best,
> Lara
> 
> 
>> On Aug 27, 2019, at 9:42 AM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Lara,
>> You said this which got me thinking:
>> “I talk with students a lot about the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not.”
>> 
>> I wonder if you have much insight about why the less motivated and vulnerable students are not eager to engage in the conversation about the object of college? Maybe you’ve a asked them and can share some of their responses.
>> 
>> I’m curious as to what is going on there.
>> 
>> Greg 
>> 
>> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 10:36 AM Lara Beaty <larabeaty@gmail.com <mailto:larabeaty@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Andy,
>> 
>> I like the focus on particular activities that you suggest. I have designed and teach a First Year Seminar in Psychology in which I like to try out different activities to see what will connect with different students, but I still tend to be a little too abstract. It is a great course for putting theory into practice! I talk with students a lot about the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not.
>> 
>> For my research, I’ve explored a little the history of how politicians speak about college and wondered how important this might be to understanding student development. This discussion has led me to think about how intrinsic motivation or enjoyment or, for that matter, “development” tends to be viewed as important only for upper classes—how these concepts are cultural tools used to shape and sustain inequality while appearing to be abstract and neutral. The administration at my college loves Carol Dweck’s concept of growth mindset but also wants to control the direction of student growth, directing it away from the political and rebellious. 
>> 
>> Most of my students have no real concept of what college is, I suspect.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Lara
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2019, at 3:29 AM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks for your very interesting observations, Lara.
>>> 
>>> I'd like to suggest a way of seeing what is intrinsic to college education, of how and why joy can be derived from learning a fact of history, a principle of nursing, the novelty of a particular author, or whatever. What makes it enjoyable? What is specific about this pleasure which is distinct from the pleasure of watching a movie or playing a computer game?
>>> 
>>> What is the object of College? At the lowest level of ethical development (above "Mum made me go!") it is the intention of gaining a job certificate for the welfare obtained by means of a wage.Instrumental from beginning to end. Nowadays, many governments conceive of colleges in a similarly instrumental way - to generate labour power to work in enterprises to generate profits. Few governments really understand the idea education in the humanities and sciences in the intention of raising the quality of social life.
>>> 
>>> Likewise, it is anticipation of participating in projects in which they will take a real interest in their working life which offers the possibility of gaining intrinsic joy from learning about various facts, principles, methods, innovations, etc., so later to be able to further the profession, raise the quality of social life, improve the lives of ill people, etc. On both sides it implies a mature conception of what college is for.
>>> 
>>> If that doesn't help, either they're not ready for college or the college is not offering something in which it is possible to get interested in.
>>> Andy
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm <https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>>> On 26/08/2019 3:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote:
>>>> Hi All.
>>>> 
>>>> ...
>>>> 
>>>> When I’m teaching community college students, however, the simplicity of the terms is a useful tool for helping students think about why they are in college, given that most of them have never been exposed in any significant way to the idea of doing college for the simple purpose of knowing more and creating possibilities for new ways of thinking. I keep hoping to help them find some joy in learning and development.
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> Lara
>>>> 
>>>>    
>>>> 
>> 
>> Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty
>> Professor of Psychology
>> Psychology Program Co-Director
>> SERG Director
>> Social Science Department
>> LaGuardia Community College, CUNY
>> 718-482-5796
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>> Brigham Young University
>> Provo, UT 84602
>> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu <http://greg.a.thompson.byu.edu/> 
>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
> __________
> “It is a tragedy what has happened to my country and my people. But the biggest damage is what’s been done to our hearts. We don’t even cry anymore when we hear of death. We have lived with the abnormal so long it’s become normal. Our hearts have gone numb.”
> —Melody Lynn Beattie, Stop Being Mean to Yourself
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu <http://greg.a.thompson.byu.edu/> 
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
__________
Men, poor weak creatures, have not the courage to pay for their sins themselves: they place them upon one who is sinless.
-Nikos Kazantzakis

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