From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Aug 2 14:58:39 2019 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 14:58:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues -- One of the master students of early childhood development and education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive voice in her letters to Gil. Those who do not may still have the great pleasure living in her classroom through her writing. mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Gillian McNamee Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM Subject: Sad news about Vivian To: , -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190802/c582cc49/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: McNamee 8.1.19.doc Type: application/msword Size: 59392 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190802/c582cc49/attachment-0001.doc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: franklin in the blocks.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1816644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190802/c582cc49/attachment-0001.pdf From kplakits@gmail.com Fri Aug 2 16:02:30 2019 From: kplakits@gmail.com (Katerina Plakitsi) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 02:02:30 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So sad! My deepest condolences ... ???? ???, 3 ??? 2019 ???? 01:13 ? ??????? mike cole ??????: > Dear Colleagues -- > One of the master students of early childhood development and > education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by > Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. > > Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive voice > in her letters to Gil. Those who do not may still have the great pleasure > living in her classroom through her writing. > mike > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Gillian McNamee > Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM > Subject: Sad news about Vivian > To: , > > > -- Katerina Plakitsi *ISCAR President* *Professor of Science Education* *Head of the Dept. of E**arly Childhood Education* *School of Education * *University of Ioannina, Greece* *tel. +302651005771* *fax. +302651005842* *mobile.phone +306972898463* *Skype name: katerina.plakitsi3* https://www.iscar.org/ http://users.uoi.gr/kplakits www.epoque-project.eu http://bdfprojects.wixsite.com/mindset http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isZAbefnRmo&t=7s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190803/8d7637d8/attachment.html From agn3@lehigh.edu Fri Aug 2 16:19:26 2019 From: agn3@lehigh.edu (Ageliki Nicolopoulou) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 19:19:26 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These are very sad news, as Vivian Paley was someone who was very important in my work--and whom I have met personally on a few occasions. For years, I have studied her storyteling/story-acting activity in classrooms that were already using it and I also helped many teachers to adopt it; at the same time, I have also analyzed (and continue to analyze) the many many children's stories collected through this activity. And her books still remain a great inspiration for me. She was able to make the children be so articulate (sing as Feldman once said) and we can still learn from them, while it takes many many studies to gain the insights she was able to give us in a few pages. Vivian was an exceptional teacher and an exceptional and gifted person who would be sorely missed! Ageliki Nicolopoulou ________________ Ageliki Nicolopoulou, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Lehigh University, Bethlehem PA Personal Webpage: http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About Departmental Webpage: http://psychology.cas2.lehigh.edu/content/agn3 On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 7:05 PM Katerina Plakitsi wrote: > So sad! My deepest condolences ... > > ???? ???, 3 ??? 2019 ???? 01:13 ? ??????? mike cole > ??????: > >> Dear Colleagues -- >> One of the master students of early childhood development and >> education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by >> Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. >> >> Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive >> voice >> in her letters to Gil. Those who do not may still have the great pleasure >> living in her classroom through her writing. >> mike >> >> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >> From: Gillian McNamee >> Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM >> Subject: Sad news about Vivian >> To: , >> >> >> -- > > > Katerina Plakitsi > *ISCAR President* > *Professor of Science Education* > *Head of the Dept. of E**arly Childhood Education* > *School of Education * > *University of Ioannina, Greece* > *tel. +302651005771* > *fax. +302651005842* > *mobile.phone +306972898463* > *Skype name: katerina.plakitsi3* > > https://www.iscar.org/ > http://users.uoi.gr/kplakits > www.epoque-project.eu > http://bdfprojects.wixsite.com/mindset > http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isZAbefnRmo&t=7s > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190802/67de5333/attachment.html From goncu@uic.edu Fri Aug 2 16:47:18 2019 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 23:47:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <0CFB7E57-31B1-4DEE-921B-FAA48F1DF184@uic.edu> Since I got the sad news today, I have been struggling with a profound sense of sadness. Vivian was a significant soul who touched so many of us in the fields of child development, early education, play, and story telling. For me, she was a dear colleague with whom I had so many conversations about play. I will never forget the day when she asked me ?Artin, how do you differentiate so many play kinds from one another?? I am still formulating an answer... Artin Goncu Sent from my iPhone On Aug 2, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Ageliki Nicolopoulou > wrote: These are very sad news, as Vivian Paley was someone who was very important in my work--and whom I have met personally on a few occasions. For years, I have studied her storyteling/story-acting activity in classrooms that were already using it and I also helped many teachers to adopt it; at the same time, I have also analyzed (and continue to analyze) the many many children's stories collected through this activity. And her books still remain a great inspiration for me. She was able to make the children be so articulate (sing as Feldman once said) and we can still learn from them, while it takes many many studies to gain the insights she was able to give us in a few pages. Vivian was an exceptional teacher and an exceptional and gifted person who would be sorely missed! Ageliki Nicolopoulou ________________ Ageliki Nicolopoulou, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Lehigh University, Bethlehem PA Personal Webpage: http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About Departmental Webpage: http://psychology.cas2.lehigh.edu/content/agn3 On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 7:05 PM Katerina Plakitsi > wrote: So sad! My deepest condolences ... ???? ???, 3 ??? 2019 ???? 01:13 ? ??????? mike cole > ??????: Dear Colleagues -- One of the master students of early childhood development and education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive voice in her letters to Gil. Those who do not may still have the great pleasure living in her classroom through her writing. mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Gillian McNamee > Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM Subject: Sad news about Vivian To: >, > -- [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1W6dF6SBZPvCpoFBAcNVyFK5jdTFKwmvF&revid=0BxtYRoMGXKSKUDBJak9SSWVWUWNrNGQzUS9LK1kwYVIyME8wPQ] Katerina Plakitsi ISCAR President Professor of Science Education Head of the Dept. of Early Childhood Education School of Education University of Ioannina, Greece tel. +302651005771 fax. +302651005842 mobile.phone +306972898463 Skype name: katerina.plakitsi3 https://www.iscar.org/ http://users.uoi.gr/kplakits www.epoque-project.eu http://bdfprojects.wixsite.com/mindset http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isZAbefnRmo&t=7s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190802/f53e722f/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Sat Aug 3 03:36:45 2019 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 19:36:45 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: <0CFB7E57-31B1-4DEE-921B-FAA48F1DF184@uic.edu> References: <0CFB7E57-31B1-4DEE-921B-FAA48F1DF184@uic.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I too have been feeling such sadness. I just this month I was able to connect with a preschool director here in Japan who had even read some of her books before they were translated into Japan. Her work reached deep and far, and was also at least 1/2 of what brought me to LCHC ... as I was introduced to Mike's writing through his introduction to Mollie is Three. Beth On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 8:49 AM Goncu, Artin wrote: > Since I got the sad news today, I have been struggling with a profound > sense of sadness. Vivian was a significant soul who touched so many of us > in the fields of child development, early education, play, and story > telling. For me, she was a dear colleague with whom I had so many > conversations about play. I will never forget the day when she asked me > ?Artin, how do you differentiate so many play kinds from one another?? I > am still formulating an answer... Artin Goncu > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 2, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Ageliki Nicolopoulou wrote: > > These are very sad news, as Vivian Paley was someone who was very > important in my work--and whom I have met personally on a few occasions. > For years, I have studied her storyteling/story-acting activity in > classrooms that were already using it and I also helped many teachers to > adopt it; at the same time, I have also analyzed (and continue to analyze) > the many many children's stories collected through this activity. And her > books still remain a great inspiration for me. She was able to make the > children be so articulate (sing as Feldman once said) and we can still > learn from them, while it takes many many studies to gain the insights she > was able to give us in a few pages. > > Vivian was an exceptional teacher and an exceptional and gifted person who > would be sorely missed! > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > ________________ > Ageliki Nicolopoulou, Ph.D. > Professor of Psychology > Lehigh University, Bethlehem PA > Personal Webpage: http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About > Departmental Webpage: http://psychology.cas2.lehigh.edu/content/agn3 > > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 7:05 PM Katerina Plakitsi > wrote: > >> So sad! My deepest condolences ... >> >> ???? ???, 3 ??? 2019 ???? 01:13 ? ??????? mike cole >> ??????: >> >>> Dear Colleagues -- >>> One of the master students of early childhood development and >>> education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by >>> Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. >>> >>> Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive >>> voice >>> in her letters to Gil. Those who do not may still have the great >>> pleasure living in her classroom through her writing. >>> mike >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>> From: Gillian McNamee >>> Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM >>> Subject: Sad news about Vivian >>> To: , >>> >>> >>> -- >> >> >> Katerina Plakitsi >> *ISCAR President* >> *Professor of Science Education* >> *Head of the Dept. of E**arly Childhood Education* >> *School of Education * >> *University of Ioannina, Greece* >> *tel. +302651005771* >> *fax. +302651005842* >> *mobile.phone +306972898463* >> *Skype name: katerina.plakitsi3* >> >> https://www.iscar.org/ >> http://users.uoi.gr/kplakits >> www.epoque-project.eu >> http://bdfprojects.wixsite.com/mindset >> http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isZAbefnRmo&t=7s >> >> >> >> >> -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190803/fb1f54b7/attachment.html From anamshane@gmail.com Sat Aug 3 05:59:24 2019 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 12:59:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: References: <0CFB7E57-31B1-4DEE-921B-FAA48F1DF184@uic.edu>, Message-ID: It is a sad day. Vivian is also important for me and my own development. Her books are just a treasure. My condolence to her family and friends!! Ana Ana Marjanovic-Shane Anamshane@gmail.com ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2019 6:40 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian Yes, I too have been feeling such sadness. I just this month I was able to connect with a preschool director here in Japan who had even read some of her books before they were translated into Japan. Her work reached deep and far, and was also at least 1/2 of what brought me to LCHC ... as I was introduced to Mike's writing through his introduction to Mollie is Three. Beth On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 8:49 AM Goncu, Artin > wrote: Since I got the sad news today, I have been struggling with a profound sense of sadness. Vivian was a significant soul who touched so many of us in the fields of child development, early education, play, and story telling. For me, she was a dear colleague with whom I had so many conversations about play. I will never forget the day when she asked me ?Artin, how do you differentiate so many play kinds from one another?? I am still formulating an answer... Artin Goncu Sent from my iPhone On Aug 2, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Ageliki Nicolopoulou > wrote: These are very sad news, as Vivian Paley was someone who was very important in my work--and whom I have met personally on a few occasions. For years, I have studied her storyteling/story-acting activity in classrooms that were already using it and I also helped many teachers to adopt it; at the same time, I have also analyzed (and continue to analyze) the many many children's stories collected through this activity. And her books still remain a great inspiration for me. She was able to make the children be so articulate (sing as Feldman once said) and we can still learn from them, while it takes many many studies to gain the insights she was able to give us in a few pages. Vivian was an exceptional teacher and an exceptional and gifted person who would be sorely missed! Ageliki Nicolopoulou ________________ Ageliki Nicolopoulou, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Lehigh University, Bethlehem PA Personal Webpage: http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About Departmental Webpage: http://psychology.cas2.lehigh.edu/content/agn3 On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 7:05 PM Katerina Plakitsi > wrote: So sad! My deepest condolences ... ???? ???, 3 ??? 2019 ???? 01:13 ? ??????? mike cole > ??????: Dear Colleagues -- One of the master students of early childhood development and education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive voice in her letters to Gil. Those who do not may still have the great pleasure living in her classroom through her writing. mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Gillian McNamee > Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM Subject: Sad news about Vivian To: >, > -- [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1W6dF6SBZPvCpoFBAcNVyFK5jdTFKwmvF&revid=0BxtYRoMGXKSKUDBJak9SSWVWUWNrNGQzUS9LK1kwYVIyME8wPQ] Katerina Plakitsi ISCAR President Professor of Science Education Head of the Dept. of Early Childhood Education School of Education University of Ioannina, Greece tel. +302651005771 fax. +302651005842 mobile.phone +306972898463 Skype name: katerina.plakitsi3 https://www.iscar.org/ http://users.uoi.gr/kplakits www.epoque-project.eu http://bdfprojects.wixsite.com/mindset http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isZAbefnRmo&t=7s -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190803/c8ad8fba/attachment.html From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sat Aug 3 07:13:18 2019 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 10:13:18 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank-you for sharing this Michael. I have included her book "White Teacher" on my syllabus for pre-service social foundations of education students for the last 13 years and it is always a favorite and still strongly relevant, perhaps even more relevant in these insane times. Robert Lake On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 6:13 PM mike cole wrote: > Dear Colleagues -- > One of the master students of early childhood development and > education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by > Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. > > Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive voice > in her letters to Gil. Those who do not may still have the great pleasure > living in her classroom through her writing. > mike > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Gillian McNamee > Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM > Subject: Sad news about Vivian > To: , > > > -- Robert Lake Ed.D. Professor of Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190803/9f2fbffe/attachment.html From ewall@umich.edu Sun Aug 4 15:36:57 2019 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:36:57 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29B6B92F-FF73-451E-9AB6-F8936CD484CF@umich.edu> Mike A great teacher - and I consider exceptional teaching a practice - and insightful scholar. I can no longer remember when and how I first came across her work, but it has been quite awhile. Ed Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is. > On Aug 2, 2019, at 4:58 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Dear Colleagues -- > One of the master students of early childhood development and education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. > > Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive voice > in her letters to Gil. Those who do not may still have the great pleasure living in her classroom through her writing. > mike > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Gillian McNamee > > Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM > Subject: Sad news about Vivian > To: >, > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190804/63d82b9f/attachment.html From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sun Aug 4 16:50:07 2019 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 02:50:07 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Journey (Radischev) Message-ID: Dear friends, Can I kindly have your opinions on Radischev's Journey please, that I am actually reading. Not limited to but especially the chapter kresttsy, which is a chapter on parents and children and youth. Thank you. Ulvi 3 A?u 2019 Cmt 01:13 tarihinde mike cole ?unu yazd?: > Dear Colleagues -- > One of the master students of early childhood development and > education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by > Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. > > Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive voice > in her letters to Gil. Those who do not may still have the great pleasure > living in her classroom through her writing. > mike > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Gillian McNamee > Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM > Subject: Sad news about Vivian > To: , > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190805/9da093b3/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sun Aug 4 17:22:51 2019 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 20:22:51 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006f01d54b23$ebb7fda0$c327f8e0$@att.net> Thank you, Vivian Gussin Paley, Mike Cole, Gillian McNamee and xmca responders. Lots for crying out loud right now. ?That reminds me of?? ?We are a gentle angry people, singing for our lives.? Holly Near singing this song is in my head whenever I start to read or listen to Mrs. Paley. The gentle angry verse and all the others ? some yet to come; the birth in the 60?s and the many renaissances. Bad boys will have birthdays and great writers and educators will not pass away. Via one of the many class biographies, Reeny?s brown crayon, her friends, her Grandma Ettie and Leo Lionni (who sometimes make mistakes apparently since he is old) teach Mrs. Paley as they and Oliver a for-sure gentle angry person teach us all anew whenever we want to go to the book. I remember when reviewers of a manuscript fairly early in her book writing career objected to one of Paley?s books being published because it seemed to them that Paley believed the magic the children believed. Mike had to get someone to respond to this objection so the editor who loved it could get it published. So, I had to figure out how to write a review, in at least marginally academic sounding language, that said, ?Well, yeah, of course she does and so what and then what?? Thank you Mrs. Paley, ?We are a gentle angry people, playing for our lives.? Peg PS Mike, my spell corrector keeps trying to call you ?Mice.? From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Friday, August 02, 2019 5:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Sad news about Vivian Dear Colleagues -- One of the master students of early childhood development and education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive voice in her letters to Gil Those who do not may still have the great pleasure living in her classroom through her writing. mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Gillian McNamee Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM Subject: Sad news about Vivian To: , > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190804/b79b593b/attachment.html From bferholt@gmail.com Sun Aug 4 19:37:54 2019 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:37:54 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: <006f01d54b23$ebb7fda0$c327f8e0$@att.net> References: <006f01d54b23$ebb7fda0$c327f8e0$@att.net> Message-ID: Thank you for this, Peg! What an important memory! Can you send the review you wrote?? Beth On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 9:25 AM Peg Griffin wrote: > Thank you, Vivian Gussin Paley, Mike Cole, Gillian McNamee and xmca > responders. Lots for crying out loud right now. > > ?That reminds me of?? > > ?We are a gentle angry people, singing for our lives.? Holly Near singing > this song is in my head whenever I start to read or listen to Mrs. Paley. > The gentle angry verse and all the others ? some yet to come; the birth in > the 60?s and the many renaissances. > > > > Bad boys will have birthdays and great writers and educators will not pass > away. Via one of the many class biographies, Reeny?s brown crayon, her > friends, her Grandma Ettie and Leo Lionni (who sometimes make mistakes > apparently since he is old) teach Mrs. Paley as they and Oliver a for-sure > gentle angry person teach us all anew whenever we want to go to the book. > > > > I remember when reviewers of a manuscript fairly early in her book writing > career objected to one of Paley?s books being published because it seemed > to them that Paley believed the magic the children believed. Mike had to > get someone to respond to this objection so the editor who loved it could > get it published. > > So, I had to figure out how to write a review, in at least marginally > academic sounding language, that said, ?Well, yeah, of course she does and > so what and then what?? > > > > Thank you Mrs. Paley, ?We are a gentle angry people, playing for our > lives.? > > > > Peg > > PS Mike, my spell corrector keeps trying to call you ?Mice.? > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *mike cole > *Sent:* Friday, August 02, 2019 5:59 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Fwd: Sad news about Vivian > > > > Dear Colleagues -- > > One of the master students of early childhood development and > education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by > Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. > > > > Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive voice > > in her letters to Gil Those who do not may still have the great pleasure > living in her classroom through her writing. > > mike > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: *Gillian McNamee* > Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM > Subject: Sad news about Vivian > To: , > > > > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190805/2515d368/attachment.html From Peg.Griffin@att.net Sun Aug 4 20:47:11 2019 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 23:47:11 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d54b23$ebb7fda0$c327f8e0$@att.net> Message-ID: <000601d54b40$773b9000$65b2b000$@att.net> Sorry, I have no copy. It was for the editors at Harvard University Press who were deciding whether to publish the manuscript. It wasn?t a review published in a journal after the book?s publication. From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2019 10:38 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian Thank you for this, Peg! What an important memory! Can you send the review you wrote?? Beth On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 9:25 AM Peg Griffin wrote: Thank you, Vivian Gussin Paley, Mike Cole, Gillian McNamee and xmca responders. Lots for crying out loud right now. ?That reminds me of?? ?We are a gentle angry people, singing for our lives.? Holly Near singing this song is in my head whenever I start to read or listen to Mrs. Paley. The gentle angry verse and all the others ? some yet to come; the birth in the 60?s and the many renaissances. Bad boys will have birthdays and great writers and educators will not pass away. Via one of the many class biographies, Reeny?s brown crayon, her friends, her Grandma Ettie and Leo Lionni (who sometimes make mistakes apparently since he is old) teach Mrs. Paley as they and Oliver a for-sure gentle angry person teach us all anew whenever we want to go to the book. I remember when reviewers of a manuscript fairly early in her book writing career objected to one of Paley?s books being published because it seemed to them that Paley believed the magic the children believed. Mike had to get someone to respond to this objection so the editor who loved it could get it published. So, I had to figure out how to write a review, in at least marginally academic sounding language, that said, ?Well, yeah, of course she does and so what and then what?? Thank you Mrs. Paley, ?We are a gentle angry people, playing for our lives.? Peg PS Mike, my spell corrector keeps trying to call you ?Mice.? From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Friday, August 02, 2019 5:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Sad news about Vivian Dear Colleagues -- One of the master students of early childhood development and education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive voice in her letters to Gil Those who do not may still have the great pleasure living in her classroom through her writing. mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Gillian McNamee Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM Subject: Sad news about Vivian To: , > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190804/ff4b4144/attachment.html From Dana.Walker@unco.edu Mon Aug 5 06:27:50 2019 From: Dana.Walker@unco.edu (Walker, Dana) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 13:27:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d54b23$ebb7fda0$c327f8e0$@att.net> Message-ID: Which one of Vivian Paley?s books would people recommend for teachers of Linguistically Diverse learners? Dana From: on behalf of Beth Ferholt Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 8:40 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Sad news about Vivian Thank you for this, Peg! What an important memory! Can you send the review you wrote?? Beth On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 9:25 AM Peg Griffin > wrote: Thank you, Vivian Gussin Paley, Mike Cole, Gillian McNamee and xmca responders. Lots for crying out loud right now. ?That reminds me of?? ?We are a gentle angry people, singing for our lives.? Holly Near singing this song is in my head whenever I start to read or listen to Mrs. Paley. The gentle angry verse and all the others ? some yet to come; the birth in the 60?s and the many renaissances. Bad boys will have birthdays and great writers and educators will not pass away. Via one of the many class biographies, Reeny?s brown crayon, her friends, her Grandma Ettie and Leo Lionni (who sometimes make mistakes apparently since he is old) teach Mrs. Paley as they and Oliver a for-sure gentle angry person teach us all anew whenever we want to go to the book. I remember when reviewers of a manuscript fairly early in her book writing career objected to one of Paley?s books being published because it seemed to them that Paley believed the magic the children believed. Mike had to get someone to respond to this objection so the editor who loved it could get it published. So, I had to figure out how to write a review, in at least marginally academic sounding language, that said, ?Well, yeah, of course she does and so what and then what?? Thank you Mrs. Paley, ?We are a gentle angry people, playing for our lives.? Peg PS Mike, my spell corrector keeps trying to call you ?Mice.? From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Friday, August 02, 2019 5:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Sad news about Vivian Dear Colleagues -- One of the master students of early childhood development and education, Vivian Paley, has passed away. I attach a memorial statement by Gil McNamee, her long-time student, and a master educator in her own right. Those who know Vivian or her work will recognize Vivian's distinctive voice in her letters to Gil Those who do not may still have the great pleasure living in her classroom through her writing. mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Gillian McNamee > Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:21 PM Subject: Sad news about Vivian To: >, > -- Beth Ferholt (pronouns: she/her/hers) Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Affiliated Faculty, Program in Urban Education, CUNY Graduate Center Affiliated Faculty, School of Education and Communication, J?nk?ping University Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu CC bferholt@gmail.com if writing to CUNY address. Phone: (718) 951-5205 **This message originated from outside UNC. Please use caution when opening attachments or following links. Do not enter your UNC credentials when prompted by external links.** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190805/6bdbc2dd/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Aug 5 17:06:29 2019 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 17:06:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_P=2ES=2E_Re=3A_R=2EI=2EP=2E_VIVIAN_PALEY_--_Wha?= =?utf-8?q?t_a_rich_life=28-story=29_=2E_=2E_=2E_that_so_enriched_o?= =?utf-8?b?dXJzIPCfmY8=?= In-Reply-To: References: <61116C48-8EB8-41D9-8635-8411C8320050@me.com> Message-ID: I forgot about this set of Paley papers Mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Frank Kessel Date: Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 7:36 PM Subject: P.S. Re: R.I.P. VIVIAN PALEY -- What a rich life(-story) . . . that so enriched ours ? To: Frank Kessel Of course there are almost endless things we can say, and stories to share, about Vivian. Still, one or three of you (a) may remember this, or (b) find it worthwhile now . . . where ?it? would be at least her own discussion (and others?) on pp. 77 ff. On Aug 2, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Frank Kessel wrote: THE NEW YORK TIMESVivian Paley, Educator Who Promoted Storytelling, Dies at 90 Image[image: Vivian Gussin Paley in 1988. She believed in the power of storytelling in developing the minds and social qualities of small children. She wrote 13 books and won a MacArthur award for her work.] Vivian Gussin Paley in 1988. She believed in the power of storytelling in developing the minds and social qualities of small children. She wrote 13 books and won a MacArthur award for her work.CreditCreditSpecial Collections Research Center, University of Chicago Library. By Katharine Q. Seelye - Aug. 1, 2019 - - - - - - Vivian Gussin Paley, a pioneering teacher and widely acclaimed author who emphasized the importance of storytelling in early childhood development, died on July 26 in Crozet, Va. She was 90. Her son, David Paley, said she had been in failing health for some months and died in an assisted living facility. Ms. Paley was a keen observer ? and listener ? of young children. She wrote 13 books about their social and intellectual development, including how they learn from telling stories, and received a MacArthur ?genius? grant in recognition of her work. Her best known works include ?You Can?t Say You Can?t Play? (1993), the title referring to a rule she laid down in her classroom to teach children about rejection. The book is ?arresting in its title, magical in its appeal, and inspiring in its message,? the Harvard law professor and author Derrick Bell wrote in The New York Times Book Review. He said it illustrated ?how the teacher?s art can attack the evil of exclusion at its childhood root.? In ?White Teacher? (1979), she described her reluctance to talk about race as a white teacher in an integrated school. Sixteen years later she wrote ?Kwanzaa and Me,? in which she confronted racism head on. Her book ?The Girl With the Brown Crayon? (1997), which followed a girl?s discoveries during a year of reading works by the children?s author Leo Lionni , won Harvard University Press?s annual prize for outstanding publication about education and society. Ms. Paley?s teaching approach involved asking children to describe an event, sometimes with only a few words, and then to dramatize it with their classmates. This taught them language skills but also compassion, fairness and how to negotiate relationships. ?She was as much an artist as a teacher, creative and playful to the end of her life,? John Hornstein, a child development specialist at Tufts University, said in an interview. ?She is known in the field for her use of storytelling, but the method she developed is far more than that. It is a way in which young children join a complex and diverse social world.? Ms. Paley developed her methods over 37 years of teaching, most of them spent at the innovative, academically rigorous University of Chicago Laboratory Schools . While there, she won her MacArthur award in 1989 at age 60. She is believed to be the only person to win the grant while working as a kindergarten teacher. In addition to teaching children, she mentored a generation of teachers, held workshops and lectured about her experiences in the classroom. Her methods of storytelling and acting have been adopted elsewhere, notably in Boston, where the public school system has incorporated them into its curriculum. But they met with some resistance from the education establishment, especially as the No Child Left Behind Act, which required standardized testing, became law in 2002. ?She wasn?t mainstream, and she wasn?t a curriculum person,? Mr. Hornstein said. ?To her, teaching was not about meeting a bunch of core requirements that you can quantify; it was about being a human being.? [image: The methods of Ms. Paley, shown here in 1989, were influential, and were adopted by the Boston school system. But they were at odds with the increasing emphasis nationwide on testing.] The methods of Ms. Paley, shown here in 1989, were influential, and were adopted by the Boston school system. But they were at odds with the increasing emphasis nationwide on testing.CreditSpecial Collections Research Center, University of Chicago Library. In her book ?The Boy Who Would Be a Helicopter: The Uses of Storytelling in the Classroom? (1990), Ms. Paley wrote about a loner who becomes less isolated by acting in other children?s activities and stories, both true and fantasized, and inviting others into his imaginary helicopter to be his co-pilot. By using storytelling to make children feel included, Ms. Paley built trust in her classroom and extended that to problem solving, said Sarah Sivright, who taught with her at the Chicago Laboratory Schools. For example, she said, a student named Billy liked to play with blocks but never put them away. Ms. Paley and Ms. Sivright suggested that he not be allowed to play with them anymore. But his classmates said that that wasn?t fair because it was his favorite activity. They suggested instead that he simply be reminded to clean up after each session. ?Billy actually did get better at cleaning up,? Ms. Sivright said. ?He felt supported by his community.? Vivian Roslyn Gussin was born on Jan. 25, 1929, in Chicago to Harry and Yetta (Meisel) Gussin. He was a medical doctor and she a homemaker. Vivian received her bachelor of philosophy degree from the University of Chicago in 1947 and another bachelor?s degree, in psychology, from Newcomb College, the women?s college at Tulane University in New Orleans, in 1950. She married Irving Paley in 1948. He survives her, as do their son, David, three grandchildren and three great-grandchildren. Another son, Robert, died in 2017. Ms. Paley began her teaching career in New Orleans. There, she recalled, she felt burdened by an overemphasis on strict learning boundaries and memorization, and came to believe that such an approach stifled learning ? and teaching. She described herself during this period as an ?uninspired and uninspiring teacher.? She moved to New York and earned her master?s of science degree in education from Hofstra University on Long Island in 1965 and taught at the Great Neck public schools, also on Long Island, until 1971. She then moved back to Chicago, where she spent the rest of her teaching career at the Lab Schools. There she felt free to experiment. When the school day was extended from a half day to a full day, she decided to fill it with storytelling and acting. ?She helped children use the tools they have, which are imagination, sympathy and make-believe, to understand themselves and each other,? said Dr. Joshua D. Sparrow, executive director of the Brazelton Touchpoints Center in Boston, which studies child development. Gillian D. McNamee, a prot?g? of Ms. Paley?s at Lab and now director of teacher education at the Erikson Institute in Chicago, said that after Ms. Paley would ask children what story they wanted to tell, she would connect it to other stories or to a book or something that happened in class. ?Vivian gave us a blueprint for teaching children how to think,? Ms. McNamee said. Ms. Paley retired from Lab in 1995 but continued to lecture and hold workshops around the world until a few years ago. Storytelling, she wrote in a 2001 essay, ?is still the only activity I know of, besides play itself, that is immediately understood and desired by every child over the age of two.? -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190805/4f7b5fe5/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Paley LCHC.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 3200729 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190805/4f7b5fe5/attachment-0001.pdf From sharada.gade@gmail.com Mon Aug 5 20:20:15 2019 From: sharada.gade@gmail.com (Sharada Gade) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 08:50:15 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_P=2ES=2E_Re=3A_R=2EI=2EP=2E_VIVIAN_PALEY_--_?= =?utf-8?q?What_a_rich_life=28-story=29_=2E_=2E_=2E_that_so_enriche?= =?utf-8?b?ZCBvdXJzIPCfmY8=?= In-Reply-To: References: <61116C48-8EB8-41D9-8635-8411C8320050@me.com> Message-ID: Thank you Mike for sending these over A teacher collaborating with me and I have been looking at storytelling with CHAT and with Paley in the southern Indian city of Hyderabad We seem to know Vivian and will remember her Sharada ---------------------------- On 8/6/19, mike cole wrote: > I forgot about this set of Paley papers > Mike > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Frank Kessel > Date: Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 7:36 PM > Subject: P.S. Re: R.I.P. VIVIAN PALEY -- What a rich life(-story) . . . > that so enriched ours ? > To: Frank Kessel > > > Of course there are almost endless things we can say, and stories to share, > about Vivian. Still, one or three of you (a) may remember this, or (b) > find it worthwhile now . . . where ?it? would be at least her own > discussion (and others?) on pp. 77 ff. > > > > On Aug 2, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Frank Kessel wrote: > > THE NEW YORK TIMESVivian Paley, Educator Who Promoted Storytelling, Dies at > 90 > Image[image: Vivian Gussin Paley in 1988. She believed in the power of > storytelling in developing the minds and social qualities of small > children. She wrote 13 books and won a MacArthur award for her work.] > Vivian Gussin Paley in 1988. She believed in the power of storytelling in > developing the minds and social qualities of small children. She wrote 13 > books and won a MacArthur award for her work.CreditCreditSpecial > Collections Research Center, University of Chicago Library. > By Katharine Q. Seelye > > - Aug. 1, 2019 > - > - > > > - > > > - > > > - > - > > Vivian Gussin Paley, a pioneering teacher and widely acclaimed author who > emphasized the importance of storytelling in early childhood development, > died on July 26 in Crozet, Va. She was 90. > Her son, David Paley, said she had been in failing health for some months > and died in an assisted living facility. > Ms. Paley was a keen observer ? and listener ? of young children. She wrote > 13 books about their social and intellectual development, including how > they learn from telling stories, and received a MacArthur ?genius? grant in > recognition of her work. > Her best known works include ?You Can?t Say You Can?t Play? (1993), the > title referring to a rule she laid down in her classroom to teach children > about rejection. The book is ?arresting in its title, magical in its > appeal, and inspiring in its message,? the Harvard law professor and > author Derrick > Bell wrote > in > The New York Times Book Review. He said it illustrated ?how the teacher?s > art can attack the evil of exclusion at its childhood root.? > > In ?White Teacher? (1979), she described her reluctance to talk about race > as a white teacher in an integrated school. Sixteen years later she wrote > ?Kwanzaa and Me,? in which she confronted racism head on. > Her book ?The Girl With the Brown Crayon? (1997), which followed a girl?s > discoveries during a year of reading works by the children?s author Leo > Lionni , won > Harvard University Press?s annual prize for outstanding publication about > education and society. > Ms. Paley?s teaching approach involved asking children to describe an > event, sometimes with only a few words, and then to dramatize it with their > classmates. This taught them language skills but also compassion, fairness > and how to negotiate relationships. > ?She was as much an artist as a teacher, creative and playful to the end of > her life,? John Hornstein, a child development specialist at Tufts > University, said in an interview. ?She is known in the field for her use of > storytelling, but the method she developed is far more than that. It is a > way in which young children join a complex and diverse social world.? > Ms. Paley developed her methods over 37 years of teaching, most of them > spent at the innovative, academically rigorous University of Chicago > Laboratory Schools . While there, she won > her MacArthur award in 1989 at age 60. She is believed to be the only > person to win the grant while working as a kindergarten teacher. > > In addition to teaching children, she mentored a generation of teachers, > held workshops and lectured about her experiences in the classroom. Her > methods of storytelling and acting have been adopted elsewhere, notably in > Boston, where the public school system has incorporated > them > into its curriculum. > But they met with some resistance from the education establishment, > especially as the No Child Left Behind > > Act, > which required standardized testing, became law in 2002. > ?She wasn?t mainstream, and she wasn?t a curriculum person,? Mr. Hornstein > said. ?To her, teaching was not about meeting a bunch of core requirements > that you can quantify; it was about being a human being.? > > [image: The methods of Ms. Paley, shown here in 1989, were influential, and > were adopted by the Boston school system. But they were at odds with the > increasing emphasis nationwide on testing.] > The methods of Ms. Paley, shown here in 1989, were influential, and were > adopted by the Boston school system. But they were at odds with the > increasing emphasis nationwide on testing.CreditSpecial Collections > Research Center, University of Chicago Library. > In her book ?The Boy Who Would Be a Helicopter: The Uses of Storytelling in > the Classroom? (1990), Ms. Paley wrote about a loner who becomes less > isolated by acting in other children?s activities and stories, both true > and fantasized, and inviting others into his imaginary helicopter to be his > co-pilot. > By using storytelling to make children feel included, Ms. Paley built trust > in her classroom and extended that to problem solving, said Sarah Sivright, > who taught with her at the Chicago Laboratory Schools. > For example, she said, a student named Billy liked to play with blocks but > never put them away. Ms. Paley and Ms. Sivright suggested that he not be > allowed to play with them anymore. But his classmates said that that wasn?t > fair because it was his favorite activity. They suggested instead that he > simply be reminded to clean up after each session. > ?Billy actually did get better at cleaning up,? Ms. Sivright said. ?He felt > supported by his community.? > Vivian Roslyn Gussin was born on Jan. 25, 1929, in Chicago to Harry and > Yetta (Meisel) Gussin. He was a medical doctor and she a homemaker. > Vivian received her bachelor of philosophy degree from the University of > Chicago in 1947 and another bachelor?s degree, in psychology, from Newcomb > College, the women?s college at Tulane University in New Orleans, in 1950. > She married Irving Paley in 1948. He survives her, as do their son, David, > three grandchildren and three great-grandchildren. Another son, Robert, > died in 2017. > Ms. Paley began her teaching career in New Orleans. There, she recalled, > she felt burdened by an overemphasis on strict learning boundaries and > memorization, and came to believe that such an approach stifled learning ? > and teaching. She described herself during this period as an ?uninspired > and uninspiring teacher.? > She moved to New York and earned her master?s of science degree in > education from Hofstra University on Long Island in 1965 and taught at the > Great Neck public schools, also on Long Island, until 1971. > She then moved back to Chicago, where she spent the rest of her teaching > career at the Lab Schools. There she felt free to experiment. When the > school day was extended from a half day to a full day, she decided to fill > it with storytelling and acting. > > ?She helped children use the tools they have, which are imagination, > sympathy and make-believe, to understand themselves and each other,? said > Dr. Joshua D. Sparrow, executive director of the Brazelton Touchpoints > Center in Boston, which > studies child development. > Gillian D. McNamee, a prot?g? of Ms. Paley?s at Lab and now director of > teacher education at the Erikson Institute in > Chicago, said that after Ms. Paley would ask children what story they > wanted to tell, she would connect it to other stories or to a book or > something that happened in class. > ?Vivian gave us a blueprint for teaching children how to think,? Ms. > McNamee said. > Ms. Paley retired from Lab in 1995 but continued to lecture and hold > workshops around the world until a few years ago. > Storytelling, she wrote in a 2001 essay, ?is still the only activity I know > of, besides play itself, that is immediately understood and desired by > every child over the age of two.? > > > -- > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein > lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. > Ellison > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members > of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Tue Aug 6 07:34:27 2019 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:34:27 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_P=2ES=2E_Re=3A_R=2EI=2EP=2E_VIVIAN_PALEY_--_?= =?utf-8?q?What_a_rich_life=28-story=29_=2E_=2E_=2E_that_so_enriche?= =?utf-8?b?ZCBvdXJzIPCfmY8=?= In-Reply-To: References: <61116C48-8EB8-41D9-8635-8411C8320050@me.com> Message-ID: Thank-you for these two articles and the NY Times Obit. Here is a review of one of her books along with a short interview by Derrick Bell from the Times archive. September 6, 1992. YOU CAN'T SAY YOU CAN'T PLAY By Vivian Gussin Paley.134 pp. Cambridge, Mass.:Harvard University Press. $15.95 VIVIAN GUSSIN PALEY'S book "You Can't Say You Can't Play" is arresting in its title, magical in its appeal and inspiring in its message. It resurrects the special delight of reading to children from books that convey different meanings to them than they do to adults. Here, Mrs. Paley, a teacher at the University of Chicago Laboratory Schools and the author of a number of books about teaching children (including "The Boy Who Would Be a Helicopter"), captures and exploits this duality: her book is part fiction, part real; it is aimed at adults but has as its characters the children in her kindergarten class. Mrs. Paley recognizes the deep hurt of young schoolchildren who are told by their peers, "You can't play; don't sit by me; stop following us; I don't want you for a partner; go away." So she suggests to her quite resistant young charges that along with bans on hitting and name-calling, they should shun play practices that divide the class into a ruling group and outsiders. While most of the children concede that her suggested rule, "You can't say you can't play," is very fair, they don't think it will work. It is, they tell their teacher, just not human nature. And the strongest opponents of the rule are those children who do most of the excluding. Stating the case with more candor than tact, one little girl wails that if kids can't exclude kids they don't like, "then what's the whole point of playing?" Most teachers address peer rejection by trying to help the outsiders become more acceptable to the insiders. Often this only worsens the children's sense of exclusion. Mrs. Paley, who is in her 60's now, still remembers her first-grade teacher, who said of an overweight girl in the class, "She'd have friends if she lost weight and changed her dress once in a while." Mrs. Paley's philosophy is both more humane and more ambitious: "The group must change its attitudes and expectations toward those who, for whatever reason, are not yet part of the system." Social scientists studying the problem of rejection would probably do it in a thick volume so heavy with statistics, footnotes, education jargon and legal theory that most readers would risk terminal boredom. But Mrs. Paley is a teacher, and she seems to have adopted an approach to her readers (and to her students) that is described in the epitaph of the Rev. William Burton, headmaster of an English grammar school in the 1920's, who "taught as a learner . . . led as a follower [and so] . . . set the feet of many upon the way of life." With imaginative skill, the author introduces her children -- and her readers -- to a fairy tale about a magpie endowed with human wisdom but also beset with fears and foibles. Mrs. Paley intersperses Magpie's adventures with her dialogues with her kindergartners. But the children, though engrossed by each new episode of Magpie's story, are not easily won over by the lessons. Mrs. Paley seeks the counsel of older students in other classes. The fifth graders think the idea of barring rejection in play is a good one, but only in kindergarten because, as one girl puts it, "rules are big things then." The fourth-grade class agrees that it would work for kindergartners but not for themselves: "We're much meaner than in kindergarten." The kindergarten kids "trust you," they tell her. "They'll do what you say. It's too late to give us a new rule." Even the second graders are doubtful about accepting a rule barring all exclusion. They prefer that one child serve as a "boss" to settle disputes about who plays with whom. In fact, they would rather obey a boss than vote to settle disputes. "See," one girl explains for the group, "the bad thing about voting is, if you don't vote for that person she'll see all the people who don't like her. If it's a boss, that's only one person [who] doesn't like you so you don't feel so bad." Equally pragmatic, one fifth-grade boy tells Mrs. Paley: "In your whole life you're not going to go through life never being excluded. So you may as well learn it now." The general feeling, Mrs. Paley concludes, is that "friendship comes before fairness, and the plan is seen as an intrusion into friendship." This is an attitude all too familiar to those working for civil rights. When the Supreme Court ordered the racial desegregation of public schools in 1954, the critics of the decision contended that it interfered with the right of whites to non-association with blacks. Though the Court rejected that argument and a myriad of similar ones, it could do nothing about the toll that coerced remedies would take on the intended beneficiaries. Mrs. Paley's kids learn this harsh fact quite early. While admitting their feelings are hurt when classmates won't play with them, they agree with one child who warns: "Yeah, but it hurts more if the teacher forces people to play with you." "He's right!" someone calls out. "Last year, one time some guys wouldn't let me play and the teacher came up and told them they had to . . . and, boy, was it ever uncomfortable standing there, listening to my friends argue with the teacher about letting me play." MRS. PALEY has the answer for her class. "Story is never enough, nor is talk. We must be told, when we are young, what rules to live by. The grown-ups must tell the children . . . so that myth and morality proclaim the same message while the children are still listening." Sound advice, certainly. And it seems to make a difference. Mrs. Paley concedes that " 'you can't say you can't play' is apparently not as natural a law as, for example, 'I say you can't play.' " Still, she observes that by the end of the year the children who obeyed the rule not only included more kids in their play but also were more expansive in their storytelling. But what are we to do with a nation -- a world really -- filled with people who from an early age learn to exclude others and to expect exclusion themselves? More to the point, how does one prepare the children who have learned the inclusion lessons Mrs. Paley effectively teaches to live in an exclusionary world? "You Can't Say You Can't Play" illustrates how the teacher's art can attack the evil of exclusion at its childhood root. Now, Mrs. Paley, we need your help in weeding out the pernicious practices that afflict the adults of our exclusionary society. A version of this review appears in print on September 6, 1992, on Page 76 of the National edition with the headline: A Kindergarten Cliquebuster. Today's Paper |Subscribe On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 8:09 PM mike cole wrote: > I forgot about this set of Paley papers > Mike > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Frank Kessel > Date: Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 7:36 PM > Subject: P.S. Re: R.I.P. VIVIAN PALEY -- What a rich life(-story) . . . > that so enriched ours ? > To: Frank Kessel > > > Of course there are almost endless things we can say, and stories to > share, about Vivian. Still, one or three of you (a) may remember this, or > (b) find it worthwhile now . . . where ?it? would be at least her own > discussion (and others?) on pp. 77 ff. > > > > On Aug 2, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Frank Kessel wrote: > > THE NEW YORK TIMESVivian Paley, Educator Who Promoted Storytelling, Dies > at 90 > Image[image: Vivian Gussin Paley in 1988. She believed in the power of > storytelling in developing the minds and social qualities of small > children. She wrote 13 books and won a MacArthur award for her work.] > Vivian Gussin Paley in 1988. She believed in the power of storytelling in > developing the minds and social qualities of small children. She wrote 13 > books and won a MacArthur award for her work.CreditCreditSpecial > Collections Research Center, University of Chicago Library. > By Katharine Q. Seelye > > - Aug. 1, 2019 > - > - > > - > > - > > - > - > > Vivian Gussin Paley, a pioneering teacher and widely acclaimed author who > emphasized the importance of storytelling in early childhood development, > died on July 26 in Crozet, Va. She was 90. > Her son, David Paley, said she had been in failing health for some months > and died in an assisted living facility. > Ms. Paley was a keen observer ? and listener ? of young children. She > wrote 13 books about their social and intellectual development, including > how they learn from telling stories, and received a MacArthur ?genius? > grant in recognition of her work. > Her best known works include ?You Can?t Say You Can?t Play? (1993), the > title referring to a rule she laid down in her classroom to teach children > about rejection. The book is ?arresting in its title, magical in its > appeal, and inspiring in its message,? the Harvard law professor and author Derrick > Bell wrote > in > The New York Times Book Review. He said it illustrated ?how the teacher?s > art can attack the evil of exclusion at its childhood root.? > > In ?White Teacher? (1979), she described her reluctance to talk about race > as a white teacher in an integrated school. Sixteen years later she wrote > ?Kwanzaa and Me,? in which she confronted racism head on. > Her book ?The Girl With the Brown Crayon? (1997), which followed a girl?s > discoveries during a year of reading works by the children?s author Leo > Lionni , won > Harvard University Press?s annual prize for outstanding publication about > education and society. > Ms. Paley?s teaching approach involved asking children to describe an > event, sometimes with only a few words, and then to dramatize it with their > classmates. This taught them language skills but also compassion, fairness > and how to negotiate relationships. > ?She was as much an artist as a teacher, creative and playful to the end > of her life,? John Hornstein, a child development specialist at Tufts > University, said in an interview. ?She is known in the field for her use of > storytelling, but the method she developed is far more than that. It is a > way in which young children join a complex and diverse social world.? > Ms. Paley developed her methods over 37 years of teaching, most of them > spent at the innovative, academically rigorous University of Chicago > Laboratory Schools . While there, she won > her MacArthur award in 1989 at age 60. She is believed to be the only > person to win the grant while working as a kindergarten teacher. > > In addition to teaching children, she mentored a generation of teachers, > held workshops and lectured about her experiences in the classroom. Her > methods of storytelling and acting have been adopted elsewhere, notably in > Boston, where the public school system has incorporated > them > into its curriculum. > But they met with some resistance from the education establishment, > especially as the No Child Left Behind > Act, > which required standardized testing, became law in 2002. > ?She wasn?t mainstream, and she wasn?t a curriculum person,? Mr. Hornstein > said. ?To her, teaching was not about meeting a bunch of core requirements > that you can quantify; it was about being a human being.? > > [image: The methods of Ms. Paley, shown here in 1989, were influential, > and were adopted by the Boston school system. But they were at odds with > the increasing emphasis nationwide on testing.] > The methods of Ms. Paley, shown here in 1989, were influential, and were > adopted by the Boston school system. But they were at odds with the > increasing emphasis nationwide on testing.CreditSpecial Collections > Research Center, University of Chicago Library. > In her book ?The Boy Who Would Be a Helicopter: The Uses of Storytelling > in the Classroom? (1990), Ms. Paley wrote about a loner who becomes less > isolated by acting in other children?s activities and stories, both true > and fantasized, and inviting others into his imaginary helicopter to be his > co-pilot. > By using storytelling to make children feel included, Ms. Paley built > trust in her classroom and extended that to problem solving, said Sarah > Sivright, who taught with her at the Chicago Laboratory Schools. > For example, she said, a student named Billy liked to play with blocks but > never put them away. Ms. Paley and Ms. Sivright suggested that he not be > allowed to play with them anymore. But his classmates said that that wasn?t > fair because it was his favorite activity. They suggested instead that he > simply be reminded to clean up after each session. > ?Billy actually did get better at cleaning up,? Ms. Sivright said. ?He > felt supported by his community.? > Vivian Roslyn Gussin was born on Jan. 25, 1929, in Chicago to Harry and > Yetta (Meisel) Gussin. He was a medical doctor and she a homemaker. > Vivian received her bachelor of philosophy degree from the University of > Chicago in 1947 and another bachelor?s degree, in psychology, from Newcomb > College, the women?s college at Tulane University in New Orleans, in 1950. > She married Irving Paley in 1948. He survives her, as do their son, David, > three grandchildren and three great-grandchildren. Another son, Robert, > died in 2017. > Ms. Paley began her teaching career in New Orleans. There, she recalled, > she felt burdened by an overemphasis on strict learning boundaries and > memorization, and came to believe that such an approach stifled learning ? > and teaching. She described herself during this period as an ?uninspired > and uninspiring teacher.? > She moved to New York and earned her master?s of science degree in > education from Hofstra University on Long Island in 1965 and taught at the > Great Neck public schools, also on Long Island, until 1971. > She then moved back to Chicago, where she spent the rest of her teaching > career at the Lab Schools. There she felt free to experiment. When the > school day was extended from a half day to a full day, she decided to fill > it with storytelling and acting. > > ?She helped children use the tools they have, which are imagination, > sympathy and make-believe, to understand themselves and each other,? said > Dr. Joshua D. Sparrow, executive director of the Brazelton Touchpoints > Center in Boston, which > studies child development. > Gillian D. McNamee, a prot?g? of Ms. Paley?s at Lab and now director of > teacher education at the Erikson Institute in > Chicago, said that after Ms. Paley would ask children what story they > wanted to tell, she would connect it to other stories or to a book or > something that happened in class. > ?Vivian gave us a blueprint for teaching children how to think,? Ms. > McNamee said. > Ms. Paley retired from Lab in 1995 but continued to lecture and hold > workshops around the world until a few years ago. > Storytelling, she wrote in a 2001 essay, ?is still the only activity I > know of, besides play itself, that is immediately understood and desired by > every child over the age of two.? > > > -- > fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, > therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - > R. Ellison > --------------------------------------------------- > For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other > members of LCHC, visit > lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit > lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. > > > -- Robert Lake Ed.D. Professor of Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190806/8182223d/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Aug 6 13:25:07 2019 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 14:25:07 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_P=2ES=2E_Re=3A_R=2EI=2EP=2E_VIVIAN_PALEY_--_?= =?utf-8?q?What_a_rich_life=28-story=29_=2E_=2E_=2E_that_so_enriche?= =?utf-8?b?ZCBvdXJzIPCfmY8=?= In-Reply-To: References: <61116C48-8EB8-41D9-8635-8411C8320050@me.com> Message-ID: Felt a great resonance with this thread in the fabric of the universe yesterday when I heard that the great author (storyteller) Toni Morrison passed away. Similar to Paley, she gifted us many "once upon a times". -greg On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 8:38 AM Robert Lake wrote: > Thank-you for these two articles and the NY Times Obit. > Here is a review of one of her books along with a short interview by > Derrick Bell > from the Times archive. September 6, 1992. > > YOU CAN'T SAY YOU CAN'T PLAY > > By Vivian Gussin Paley.134 pp. Cambridge, Mass.:Harvard University Press. > $15.95 > > VIVIAN GUSSIN PALEY'S book "You Can't Say You Can't Play" is arresting in > its title, magical in its appeal and inspiring in its message. It > resurrects the special delight of reading to children from books that > convey different meanings to them than they do to adults. Here, Mrs. Paley, > a teacher at the University of Chicago Laboratory Schools and the author of > a number of books about teaching children (including "The Boy Who Would Be > a Helicopter"), captures and exploits this duality: her book is part > fiction, part real; it is aimed at adults but has as its characters the > children in her kindergarten class. > > Mrs. Paley recognizes the deep hurt of young schoolchildren who are told > by their peers, "You can't play; don't sit by me; stop following us; I > don't want you for a partner; go away." So she suggests to her quite > resistant young charges that along with bans on hitting and name-calling, > they should shun play practices that divide the class into a ruling group > and outsiders. > > While most of the children concede that her suggested rule, "You can't say > you can't play," is very fair, they don't think it will work. It is, they > tell their teacher, just not human nature. And the strongest opponents of > the rule are those children who do most of the excluding. Stating the case > with more candor than tact, one little girl wails that if kids can't > exclude kids they don't like, "then what's the whole point of playing?" > > Most teachers address peer rejection by trying to help the outsiders > become more acceptable to the insiders. Often this only worsens the > children's sense of exclusion. Mrs. Paley, who is in her 60's now, still > remembers her first-grade teacher, who said of an overweight girl in the > class, "She'd have friends if she lost weight and changed her dress once in > a while." Mrs. Paley's philosophy is both more humane and more ambitious: > "The group must change its attitudes and expectations toward those who, > for whatever reason, are not yet part of the system." > > Social scientists studying the problem of rejection would probably do it > in a thick volume so heavy with statistics, footnotes, education jargon and > legal theory that most readers would risk terminal boredom. But Mrs. Paley > is a teacher, and she seems to have adopted an approach to her readers (and > to her students) that is described in the epitaph of the Rev. William > Burton, headmaster of an English grammar school in the 1920's, who "taught > as a learner . . . led as a follower [and so] . . . set the feet of many > upon the way of life." > > With imaginative skill, the author introduces her children -- and her > readers -- to a fairy tale about a magpie endowed with human wisdom but > also beset with fears and foibles. Mrs. Paley intersperses Magpie's > adventures with her dialogues with her kindergartners. But the children, > though engrossed by each new episode of Magpie's story, are not easily won > over by the lessons. > > Mrs. Paley seeks the counsel of older students in other classes. The fifth > graders think the idea of barring rejection in play is a good one, but only > in kindergarten because, as one girl puts it, "rules are big things then." > The fourth-grade class agrees that it would work for kindergartners but not > for themselves: "We're much meaner than in kindergarten." The kindergarten > kids "trust you," they tell her. "They'll do what you say. It's too late to > give us a new rule." > > Even the second graders are doubtful about accepting a rule barring all > exclusion. They prefer that one child serve as a "boss" to settle disputes > about who plays with whom. In fact, they would rather obey a boss than vote > to settle disputes. "See," one girl explains for the group, "the bad thing > about voting is, if you don't vote for that person she'll see all the > people who don't like her. If it's a boss, that's only one person [who] > doesn't like you so you don't feel so bad." Equally pragmatic, one > fifth-grade boy tells Mrs. Paley: "In your whole life you're not going to > go through life never being excluded. So you may as well learn it now." > > The general feeling, Mrs. Paley concludes, is that "friendship comes > before fairness, and the plan is seen as an intrusion into friendship." > This is an attitude all too familiar to those working for civil rights. > When the Supreme Court ordered the racial desegregation of public schools > in 1954, the critics of the decision contended that it interfered with the > right of whites to non-association with blacks. Though the Court rejected > that argument and a myriad of similar ones, it could do nothing about the > toll that coerced remedies would take on the intended beneficiaries. > > Mrs. Paley's kids learn this harsh fact quite early. While admitting their > feelings are hurt when classmates won't play with them, they agree with one > child who warns: "Yeah, but it hurts more if the teacher forces people to > play with you." "He's right!" someone calls out. "Last year, one time some > guys wouldn't let me play and the teacher came up and told them they had to > . . . and, boy, was it ever uncomfortable standing there, listening to my > friends argue with the teacher about letting me play." > > MRS. PALEY has the answer for her class. "Story is never enough, nor is > talk. We must be told, when we are young, what rules to live by. The > grown-ups must tell the children . . . so that myth and morality proclaim > the same message while the children are still listening." Sound advice, > certainly. And it seems to make a difference. Mrs. Paley concedes that " > 'you can't say you can't play' is apparently not as natural a law as, for > example, 'I say you can't play.' " Still, she observes that by the end of > the year the children who obeyed the rule not only included more kids in > their play but also were more expansive in their storytelling. > > But what are we to do with a nation -- a world really -- filled with > people who from an early age learn to exclude others and to expect > exclusion themselves? More to the point, how does one prepare the children > who have learned the inclusion lessons Mrs. Paley effectively teaches to > live in an exclusionary world? "You Can't Say You Can't Play" illustrates > how the teacher's art can attack the evil of exclusion at its childhood > root. Now, Mrs. Paley, we need your help in weeding out the pernicious > practices that afflict the adults of our exclusionary society. > > A version of this review appears in print on September 6, 1992, on Page 76 > of the National edition with the headline: A Kindergarten Cliquebuster. Today's > Paper |Subscribe > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 8:09 PM mike cole wrote: > >> I forgot about this set of Paley papers >> Mike >> >> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >> From: Frank Kessel >> Date: Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 7:36 PM >> Subject: P.S. Re: R.I.P. VIVIAN PALEY -- What a rich life(-story) . . . >> that so enriched ours ? >> To: Frank Kessel >> >> >> Of course there are almost endless things we can say, and stories to >> share, about Vivian. Still, one or three of you (a) may remember this, or >> (b) find it worthwhile now . . . where ?it? would be at least her own >> discussion (and others?) on pp. 77 ff. >> >> >> >> On Aug 2, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Frank Kessel wrote: >> >> THE NEW YORK TIMESVivian Paley, Educator Who Promoted Storytelling, Dies >> at 90 >> Image[image: Vivian Gussin Paley in 1988. She believed in the power of >> storytelling in developing the minds and social qualities of small >> children. She wrote 13 books and won a MacArthur award for her work.] >> Vivian Gussin Paley in 1988. She believed in the power of storytelling in >> developing the minds and social qualities of small children. She wrote 13 >> books and won a MacArthur award for her work.CreditCreditSpecial >> Collections Research Center, University of Chicago Library. >> By Katharine Q. Seelye >> >> - Aug. 1, 2019 >> - >> - >> >> - >> >> - >> >> - >> - >> >> Vivian Gussin Paley, a pioneering teacher and widely acclaimed author who >> emphasized the importance of storytelling in early childhood development, >> died on July 26 in Crozet, Va. She was 90. >> Her son, David Paley, said she had been in failing health for some months >> and died in an assisted living facility. >> Ms. Paley was a keen observer ? and listener ? of young children. She >> wrote 13 books about their social and intellectual development, including >> how they learn from telling stories, and received a MacArthur ?genius? >> grant in recognition of her work. >> Her best known works include ?You Can?t Say You Can?t Play? (1993), the >> title referring to a rule she laid down in her classroom to teach children >> about rejection. The book is ?arresting in its title, magical in its >> appeal, and inspiring in its message,? the Harvard law professor and author Derrick >> Bell wrote >> in >> The New York Times Book Review. He said it illustrated ?how the teacher?s >> art can attack the evil of exclusion at its childhood root.? >> >> In ?White Teacher? (1979), she described her reluctance to talk about >> race as a white teacher in an integrated school. Sixteen years later she >> wrote ?Kwanzaa and Me,? in which she confronted racism head on. >> Her book ?The Girl With the Brown Crayon? (1997), which followed a girl?s >> discoveries during a year of reading works by the children?s author Leo >> Lionni , won >> Harvard University Press?s annual prize for outstanding publication about >> education and society. >> Ms. Paley?s teaching approach involved asking children to describe an >> event, sometimes with only a few words, and then to dramatize it with their >> classmates. This taught them language skills but also compassion, fairness >> and how to negotiate relationships. >> ?She was as much an artist as a teacher, creative and playful to the end >> of her life,? John Hornstein, a child development specialist at Tufts >> University, said in an interview. ?She is known in the field for her use of >> storytelling, but the method she developed is far more than that. It is a >> way in which young children join a complex and diverse social world.? >> Ms. Paley developed her methods over 37 years of teaching, most of them >> spent at the innovative, academically rigorous University of Chicago >> Laboratory Schools . While there, she >> won her MacArthur award in 1989 at age 60. She is believed to be the only >> person to win the grant while working as a kindergarten teacher. >> >> In addition to teaching children, she mentored a generation of teachers, >> held workshops and lectured about her experiences in the classroom. Her >> methods of storytelling and acting have been adopted elsewhere, notably in >> Boston, where the public school system has incorporated >> them >> into its curriculum. >> But they met with some resistance from the education establishment, >> especially as the No Child Left Behind >> Act, >> which required standardized testing, became law in 2002. >> ?She wasn?t mainstream, and she wasn?t a curriculum person,? Mr. >> Hornstein said. ?To her, teaching was not about meeting a bunch of core >> requirements that you can quantify; it was about being a human being.? >> >> [image: The methods of Ms. Paley, shown here in 1989, were influential, >> and were adopted by the Boston school system. But they were at odds with >> the increasing emphasis nationwide on testing.] >> The methods of Ms. Paley, shown here in 1989, were influential, and were >> adopted by the Boston school system. But they were at odds with the >> increasing emphasis nationwide on testing.CreditSpecial Collections >> Research Center, University of Chicago Library. >> In her book ?The Boy Who Would Be a Helicopter: The Uses of Storytelling >> in the Classroom? (1990), Ms. Paley wrote about a loner who becomes less >> isolated by acting in other children?s activities and stories, both true >> and fantasized, and inviting others into his imaginary helicopter to be his >> co-pilot. >> By using storytelling to make children feel included, Ms. Paley built >> trust in her classroom and extended that to problem solving, said Sarah >> Sivright, who taught with her at the Chicago Laboratory Schools. >> For example, she said, a student named Billy liked to play with blocks >> but never put them away. Ms. Paley and Ms. Sivright suggested that he not >> be allowed to play with them anymore. But his classmates said that that >> wasn?t fair because it was his favorite activity. They suggested instead >> that he simply be reminded to clean up after each session. >> ?Billy actually did get better at cleaning up,? Ms. Sivright said. ?He >> felt supported by his community.? >> Vivian Roslyn Gussin was born on Jan. 25, 1929, in Chicago to Harry and >> Yetta (Meisel) Gussin. He was a medical doctor and she a homemaker. >> Vivian received her bachelor of philosophy degree from the University of >> Chicago in 1947 and another bachelor?s degree, in psychology, from Newcomb >> College, the women?s college at Tulane University in New Orleans, in 1950. >> She married Irving Paley in 1948. He survives her, as do their son, >> David, three grandchildren and three great-grandchildren. Another son, >> Robert, died in 2017. >> Ms. Paley began her teaching career in New Orleans. There, she recalled, >> she felt burdened by an overemphasis on strict learning boundaries and >> memorization, and came to believe that such an approach stifled learning ? >> and teaching. She described herself during this period as an ?uninspired >> and uninspiring teacher.? >> She moved to New York and earned her master?s of science degree in >> education from Hofstra University on Long Island in 1965 and taught at the >> Great Neck public schools, also on Long Island, until 1971. >> She then moved back to Chicago, where she spent the rest of her teaching >> career at the Lab Schools. There she felt free to experiment. When the >> school day was extended from a half day to a full day, she decided to fill >> it with storytelling and acting. >> >> ?She helped children use the tools they have, which are imagination, >> sympathy and make-believe, to understand themselves and each other,? said >> Dr. Joshua D. Sparrow, executive director of the Brazelton Touchpoints >> Center in Boston, which >> studies child development. >> Gillian D. McNamee, a prot?g? of Ms. Paley?s at Lab and now director of >> teacher education at the Erikson Institute in >> Chicago, said that after Ms. Paley would ask children what story they >> wanted to tell, she would connect it to other stories or to a book or >> something that happened in class. >> ?Vivian gave us a blueprint for teaching children how to think,? Ms. >> McNamee said. >> Ms. Paley retired from Lab in 1995 but continued to lecture and hold >> workshops around the world until a few years ago. >> Storytelling, she wrote in a 2001 essay, ?is still the only activity I >> know of, besides play itself, that is immediately understood and desired by >> every child over the age of two.? >> >> >> -- >> fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, >> therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - >> R. Ellison >> --------------------------------------------------- >> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other >> members of LCHC, visit >> lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit >> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. >> >> >> > > -- > Robert Lake Ed.D. > Professor of Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190806/57a9022b/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Thu Aug 8 21:48:49 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 10:18:49 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?Article_=5F_=E2=80=9CA_manifestation_on_Labour=2C_Wage?= =?utf-8?b?ICYgRXhwbG9pdGF0aW9u4oCd?= Message-ID: Hi, Following article is uploaded on Academia website. The web link is given here in this message. Article Title : *?A m**anifestation on Labour, Wage & Exploitation*? Affiliation : ? The Author, 2017. An independent writer/author [Not affiliated to any Institution/University] This draft article is uploaded on ACADEMIA web. Author : Harshad Dave, Email: hhdave15@gmail.com *Abstract: * The process of determination of a wage amount or reward against labor work for a fix span of time has passed through intense contemplation of veteran thinkers or philosophers of past and present. If one reads the various views and thoughts on it, he will find one common issue in the discussion/debate on the subject matter. The issue is *exploitation* of the person (doing labor) by the master who hired him. The impression that gets generated and reality in the practical investigation of the wage agreement tally the fact that the master who hired the labor pays less than the justified amount that he should pay otherwise. However, even today, it is an impossible task to determine - ?Which amount might be certified as a *justified* amount??, ?Who should decide it?? and ?How does it get determine?? The three questions are not so easy to reply satisfactorily. Even today, the debates, thoughts and views concentrate on this issue and there are no convincing views that might generate such a transparency to sort out the issue. It does not mean that the author of this article has now come forward with a revelation of all the facts behind them. I have tried to look into the issue more closely. The close look contemplation on this issue has returned with various vital observations on the subject matter and I have tried to manifest the same in this article. I leave it to the readers of this article to conclude if the observations have any impact to help the fresh research scholars and future researchers on the subject matter or it makes the subject matter messier. Web Link: https://www.academia.edu/40038123/_A_manifestation_on_Labour_Wage_and_Exploitation_ I hope you will find it interesting. You are well come to ask any query or extend your views on that of there in the article. With true regards, Harshad Dave Email: hhdave15@gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190809/107422bd/attachment.html From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Aug 10 10:04:42 2019 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 10:04:42 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Tenure-track Canada Research Chair (Tier 2) in Child and Adolescent Mental Health Intervention at Concordia in Montreal In-Reply-To: <9fc27f03-ef12-c298-43af-a0546b12897d@concordia.ca> References: <9fc27f03-ef12-c298-43af-a0546b12897d@concordia.ca> Message-ID: A job for the person who can walk on water (!) ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Krista Byers-Heinlein Date: Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 6:56 AM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Tenure-track Canada Research Chair (Tier 2) in Child and Adolescent Mental Health Intervention at Concordia in Montreal To: Concordia University (Montreal) has a new, tenure-track faculty position opening. This position is for a Canada Research Chair Tier 2 award (emerging; <10yr post degree). The ideal candidate will be a child clinical psychologist with expertise in child, adolescent, developmental, or pediatric psychology. The candidate will have extraordinary competence in the creation and implementation of empirical, state-of-the-art interventions for youth mental health, and related issues. Health issues may include intellectual disabilities, communication disorders, ADHD, autism spectrum disorders, learning disorders, depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, first episode psychosis, feeding/eating disorders, elimination disorders, headache, sleep-wake disorders, among others. Intervention is broadly defined, including child- or parent-focused psychological treatments, behavioural interventions, or school-based programs. The candidate is expected to have the ability to establish a strong clinical intervention research program supporting which treatment(s) work best, the underlying mechanisms, and how interventions can be adapted to facilitate their widespread dissemination and uptake. The candidate will create and lead research in the development of early interventions to reduce the lifelong burden of youth mental health problems. Subject to budgetary approval, we anticipate filling this position for Summer 2020. Aligned with the accelerated timeline of the Canada Research Chairs program, review of complete applications will begin August 15, 2019 and will continue until the position has been filled. https://www.concordia.ca/artsci/about/jobs/canada-research-chairs/2019/tier-2-crc-child-and-adolescent-mental-health-intervention.html -- Krista Byers-Heinlein, PhD Concordia University Research Chair in Bilingualism Associate Professor of Psychology Centre for Research in Human Development, PY 170-10 Concordia University 7141 Sherbrooke St. West Montreal, Quebec, Canada H4B 1R6 (514) 848-2424 x2208 infantresearch.ca k.byers@concordia.ca _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org -- fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of ?as if?, therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison --------------------------------------------------- For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit lchc.ucsd.edu. For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190810/7037b3a5/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Concordia Child Mental Health Intervention CRC Job Posting 2019.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 828053 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190810/7037b3a5/attachment-0001.pdf From hhdave15@gmail.com Sat Aug 17 02:08:03 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 14:38:03 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Mindset. Message-ID: Hi all, You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" with true regards, Harshad Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190817/82a9167a/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Aug 17 09:39:18 2019 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 17:39:18 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. Best, Huw On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: > Hi all, > You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that he > developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his prevailing > age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside > world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not > permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and on > event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of abilities. > Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. > > "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" > > with true regards, > > Harshad Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190817/4ac1ecf3/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sat Aug 17 20:10:48 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 08:40:48 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. Harshad Dave On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd wrote: > Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. > > Best, > Huw > > On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: > >> Hi all, >> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that he >> developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his prevailing >> age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside >> world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not >> permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and on >> event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of abilities. >> Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >> >> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >> >> with true regards, >> >> Harshad Dave >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190818/10102bd5/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Aug 17 21:19:06 2019 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 22:19:06 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Umwelt is a term that has been used that might be close to what you describe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umwelt -greg On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 9:12 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. > > > Harshad Dave > > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>> >>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>> >>> with true regards, >>> >>> Harshad Dave >>> >> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190817/6a0de28a/attachment.html From swaiev@gmail.com Sat Aug 17 21:45:11 2019 From: swaiev@gmail.com (Elinami Swai) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 07:45:11 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe animals in their wild life have their mindsets, otherwise, a lion would not see and believe the antelopes, buffaloes, zebras, young elephants, rhinos, hippos, wild hogs, crocodiles and giraffes as food. Likewise, these lion prey would not consider lions as dangerous. So, to me, animals have their mindsets by learning from their life experiences in the wilderness. It is also correct that human beings are more controlled by their mindsets than their capacities or knowledge of certain issues. On 18/08/2019, Harshad Dave wrote: > My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. > > > Harshad Dave > > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>> he >>> developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>> prevailing >>> age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside >>> world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not >>> permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and on >>> event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>> abilities. >>> Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>> >>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>> >>> with true regards, >>> >>> Harshad Dave >>> >> > -- Prof. Elinami V. Swai, Coordinator, SADC Centre of Specialisation in Open and Distance Learning (Teacher Education) Open University of Tanzania P.O.Box 23409 Dar-Es-Salaam Tell:255-022-2668992/2668820/2668445/26687455 Fax:022-2668759 Cell: (255) 076-722-8353; (255) 068-722-8353 http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Womens-Empowerment-Africa-Dislocation/dp/ 0230102484 From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Aug 17 22:11:56 2019 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 06:11:56 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think more clarity is required in applying a binary predicate to a developmental context. On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 04:12, Harshad Dave wrote: > My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. > > > Harshad Dave > > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>> >>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>> >>> with true regards, >>> >>> Harshad Dave >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190818/9b4427e2/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sat Aug 17 22:47:48 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 11:17:48 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for your help. I opened the link and read the information on it. The word *umwelt *is more towards biological and evolutionary links. Here my subject matter pertains to socio political economics. The prime target is as follow, The process of contracting a mindset is influenced by some prime parameters in our social system. Such parameters do not exist in the wild life system. If it is true, then, either animals never contract a mind set or if it is a fact that they also contract a mind set, then which parameters are responsible in wild life system for the same? I agree the matter is sticky and clumsy to determine. Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 9:50 AM Greg Thompson wrote: > Umwelt is a term that has been used that might be close to what you > describe: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umwelt > > -greg > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 9:12 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > >> My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. >> >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>>> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>>> >>>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>>> >>>> with true regards, >>>> >>>> Harshad Dave >>>> >>> > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190818/46c89e10/attachment.html From derekpatton19@gmail.com Sat Aug 17 23:07:05 2019 From: derekpatton19@gmail.com (Derek Worley Patton) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 06:07:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Dear Folks, As a child and family psychologist and once-was a marine biologist, I found a recent documentary fascinating about how, on some reefs, and in this case filmed and documented, an octopus and grouper co-operated to stay on either side of a coral complex (not very thick) and each would attempt to attack the hiding smaller fish. The octopus would send in tenticales and sometime the fish would be chased into the mouth of the waiting grouper. Sometimes the grouper would attack and the octopus caught the fish coming out the other side. There were not enough observations to get a ratio of who got more. But quite clearly boxing in the fish from two sides is a win-wait, wait-win strategy with more chance of success than a one-sided attack independently. There are other testimonies of this sort between species by marine biologists, but this was the most recent and best documented (although I don?t spend time chasing these up.) So...if this is true, then both species can change their parameters or mindsets (understanding?) about what another creature in their environment can and will do. It only works if both species can do this in a reasonable time with limited numbers of examples. Perchance once one of them benefits accidentally from the other presence. But two accidents close together? Each would have had to remember the previous incident long enough to predict the future (?) or consequences of hunting opposite the other hunter at the same time. Interestingly, neither tried to steal the captured prey from the other. So fish and octopus develop a sense of fair play, reciprocity, win some loose some? This is all to few incidents i would think to argue ?shaping? behaviour like training chickens or rats to tap out patterns to obtain the reward drink or food in a cage. Interested as to what the rest of think. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/11/11/octopus-fish-join-forces-hunt-prey-filming-first-blue-planet/ or https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/04/24/groupers-use-gestures-to-recruit-morays-for-hunting-team-ups/ cheers, derek drderek@strivetogather.com Honorary Fellow, University of Melbourne Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Harshad Dave Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2019 5:47:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. Thanks for your help. I opened the link and read the information on it. The word umwelt is more towards biological and evolutionary links. Here my subject matter pertains to socio political economics. The prime target is as follow, The process of contracting a mindset is influenced by some prime parameters in our social system. Such parameters do not exist in the wild life system. If it is true, then, either animals never contract a mind set or if it is a fact that they also contract a mind set, then which parameters are responsible in wild life system for the same? I agree the matter is sticky and clumsy to determine. Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 9:50 AM Greg Thompson > wrote: Umwelt is a term that has been used that might be close to what you describe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umwelt -greg On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 9:12 PM Harshad Dave > wrote: My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. Harshad Dave On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. Best, Huw On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave > wrote: Hi all, You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" with true regards, Harshad Dave -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190818/e9be9937/attachment.html From annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za Sun Aug 18 04:43:12 2019 From: annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za (Annalie Pistorius) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 13:43:12 +0200 (SAST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> Hello Harshad, There is Eugene Marais in South Africa who studied baboons and termites with a similar question re ?the soul of the ape/ant? ? group behaviour that is created rather than instinctual, with interesting theorising (I must read myself). We need to shift our mindset to not separate man from animal, appreciating interconnectedness and relationality perhaps, and this writer was writing in this way. The second link will take you to a PDF file. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4198597-the-soul-of-the-ape https://www.radiantlunatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TheSoulOfTheWhiteAnt.pdf But it looks like maybe you are asking how we do things contrary to the good judgement and abilities that we have. Maybe you can clarify for us a particular dilemma you have in mind, how you see this mindset, is it something such as even though people have empathy and social skills, they have a mindset that justifies them to hurt some people to reach their goals? Regards Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Harshad Dave Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2019 11:08 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] The Mindset. Hi all, You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" with true regards, Harshad Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190818/611dab29/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sun Aug 18 06:09:35 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 18:39:35 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> Message-ID: Hi Annalie, I got your point and herewith I attach a docs file where I have explained my views that interprets exactly what I understand about "mindset" of a man. I want that all the participants of this discussion should have excess to this file but I have not adequate grip in operating this email_application of xmca-l so please help me confirming if you get the excess or not. Further to this, the write up on mindset there in the attached file is a part of an article that I write presently and it is on different subject matter of social issue where mindset of man is a prime influencing parameter and that compelled me to be clear on mindset. When I wrote on mindset of a man as one of the topic of the article under my pen, I found it necessary to peep into wild life system if animals are also victim of this frame work of mindset or it is just in human social system only. with regards, Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 5:15 PM Annalie Pistorius < annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za> wrote: > Hello Harshad, > > There is Eugene Marais in South Africa who studied baboons and termites > with a similar question re ?the soul of the ape/ant? ? group behaviour that > is created rather than instinctual, with interesting theorising (I must > read myself). We need to shift our mindset to not separate man from animal, > appreciating interconnectedness and relationality perhaps, and this writer > was writing in this way. The second link will take you to a PDF file. > > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4198597-the-soul-of-the-ape > > > https://www.radiantlunatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TheSoulOfTheWhiteAnt.pdf > > But it looks like maybe you are asking how we do things contrary to the > good judgement and abilities that we have. Maybe you can clarify for us a > particular dilemma you have in mind, how you see this mindset, is it > something such as even though people have empathy and social skills, they > have a mindset that justifies them to hurt some people to reach their goals? > > Regards > > Annalie > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Harshad Dave > *Sent:* Saturday, 17 August 2019 11:08 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] The Mindset. > > > > Hi all, > > You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that he > developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his prevailing > age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside > world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not > permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and on > event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of abilities. > Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. > > > > "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" > > > > with true regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190818/0e3ce64a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mindset of a man.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 15527 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190818/0e3ce64a/attachment.bin From hhdave15@gmail.com Sun Aug 18 06:27:08 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 18:57:08 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for your help. I opened the link and read the information on it. The word *umwelt *is more towards biological and evolutionary links. Here my subject matter pertains to socio political economics. The prime target is as follow, The process of contracting a mindset is influenced by some prime parameters in our social system. Such parameters do not exist in the wild life system. If it is true, then, either animals never contract a mind set or if it is a fact that they also contract a mind set, then which parameters are responsible in wild life system for the same? I agree the matter is sticky and clumsy to determine. Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 9:50 AM Greg Thompson wrote: > Umwelt is a term that has been used that might be close to what you > describe: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umwelt > > -greg > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 9:12 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > >> My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. >> >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>>> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>>> >>>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>>> >>>> with true regards, >>>> >>>> Harshad Dave >>>> >>> > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190818/48fca202/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sun Aug 18 06:37:36 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 19:07:36 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw, I am sorry, perhaps I posted a reply to you by mistake that otherwise I should have sent to Greg. Now I have corrected it and I regret for inconvenience. Please refer the attached file I sent along with a message to Annalie participating this discussion. If you do not get the access, please communicate and I shall attach the same for you again. I think, after going through the views on mindset of man in the above subject file you will have clear idea what exactly I target in my question. with regards, Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 10:44 AM Huw Lloyd wrote: > I think more clarity is required in applying a binary predicate to a > developmental context. > > > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 04:12, Harshad Dave wrote: > >> My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. >> >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>>> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>>> >>>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>>> >>>> with true regards, >>>> >>>> Harshad Dave >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190818/1f5a343f/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sun Aug 18 06:49:36 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 19:19:36 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Elinami (if I may), I agree with you but that knowledge might be founded on their instinctive knowledge. My saying and question is different. Now you will find an attached file where I have clarified my views on mindset of a man in a mail to Annalie one of the participant of this discussion. Please read the views in the file. Then, again you study my question and you will find clearly what exactly I want to know by the question. Please communicate if you do not have excess to the file and I shall send it to you. Regards, Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 10:17 AM Elinami Swai wrote: > I believe animals in their wild life have their mindsets, otherwise, a > lion would not see and believe the antelopes, buffaloes, zebras, young > elephants, rhinos, hippos, wild hogs, crocodiles and giraffes as food. > Likewise, these lion prey would not consider lions as dangerous. So, > to me, animals have their mindsets by learning from their life > experiences in the wilderness. > > It is also correct that human beings are more controlled by their > mindsets than their capacities or knowledge of certain issues. > > On 18/08/2019, Harshad Dave wrote: > > My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. > > > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > >> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. > >> > >> Best, > >> Huw > >> > >> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: > >> > >>> Hi all, > >>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that > >>> he > >>> developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his > >>> prevailing > >>> age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside > >>> world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not > >>> permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and > on > >>> event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of > >>> abilities. > >>> Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. > >>> > >>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" > >>> > >>> with true regards, > >>> > >>> Harshad Dave > >>> > >> > > > > > -- > Prof. Elinami V. Swai, > Coordinator, SADC Centre of Specialisation in Open and Distance Learning > (Teacher Education) > Open University of Tanzania > P.O.Box 23409 > Dar-Es-Salaam > Tell:255-022-2668992/2668820/2668445/26687455 > Fax:022-2668759 > Cell: (255) 076-722-8353; (255) 068-722-8353 > http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Womens-Empowerment-Africa-Dislocation/dp/ > 0230102484 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190818/c10c4910/attachment.html From annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za Sun Aug 18 07:11:03 2019 From: annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za (Annalie Pistorius) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 16:11:03 +0200 (SAST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> Message-ID: <007001d555ce$c2cdaa60$4868ff20$@smu.ac.za> Thank you Harshad, I got the file and read it. ?Mindset? sounds like the something all motivational speakers and writers and philosophers try to answer and work with and they call out different things. >From your document, it sounds like you are saying that mindset is an activity of reflection and an orientation? Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Harshad Dave Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2019 3:10 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. Hi Annalie, I got your point and herewith I attach a docs file where I have explained my views that interprets exactly what I understand about "mindset" of a man. I want that all the participants of this discussion should have excess to this file but I have not adequate grip in operating this email_application of xmca-l so please help me confirming if you get the excess or not. Further to this, the write up on mindset there in the attached file is a part of an article that I write presently and it is on different subject matter of social issue where mindset of man is a prime influencing parameter and that compelled me to be clear on mindset. When I wrote on mindset of a man as one of the topic of the article under my pen, I found it necessary to peep into wild life system if animals are also victim of this frame work of mindset or it is just in human social system only. with regards, Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 5:15 PM Annalie Pistorius > wrote: Hello Harshad, There is Eugene Marais in South Africa who studied baboons and termites with a similar question re ?the soul of the ape/ant? ? group behaviour that is created rather than instinctual, with interesting theorising (I must read myself). We need to shift our mindset to not separate man from animal, appreciating interconnectedness and relationality perhaps, and this writer was writing in this way. The second link will take you to a PDF file. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4198597-the-soul-of-the-ape https://www.radiantlunatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TheSoulOfTheWhiteAnt.pdf But it looks like maybe you are asking how we do things contrary to the good judgement and abilities that we have. Maybe you can clarify for us a particular dilemma you have in mind, how you see this mindset, is it something such as even though people have empathy and social skills, they have a mindset that justifies them to hurt some people to reach their goals? Regards Annalie From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of Harshad Dave Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2019 11:08 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity < xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> Subject: [Xmca-l] The Mindset. Hi all, You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" with true regards, Harshad Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190818/131752ee/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sun Aug 18 20:41:26 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 09:11:26 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, I hope you have excess to the attached file. If not, I shall send it again. Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 9:50 AM Greg Thompson wrote: > Umwelt is a term that has been used that might be close to what you > describe: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umwelt > > -greg > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 9:12 PM Harshad Dave wrote: > >> My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. >> >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>>> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>>> >>>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>>> >>>> with true regards, >>>> >>>> Harshad Dave >>>> >>> > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190819/f0b075c0/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sun Aug 18 20:43:26 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 09:13:26 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw, I hope you have excess to the attached file. If not, I shall send it again. Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 10:44 AM Huw Lloyd wrote: > I think more clarity is required in applying a binary predicate to a > developmental context. > > > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 04:12, Harshad Dave wrote: > >> My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. >> >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>>> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>>> >>>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>>> >>>> with true regards, >>>> >>>> Harshad Dave >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190819/6882d745/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Sun Aug 18 21:42:53 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 10:12:53 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: <007001d555ce$c2cdaa60$4868ff20$@smu.ac.za> References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> <007001d555ce$c2cdaa60$4868ff20$@smu.ac.za> Message-ID: Hi Annalie, Now you are aware of my perception about *mindset of a man*. However, from your question..... "From your document, it sounds like you are saying that mindset is an activity of reflection and an orientation?" I find it expedient to explain/clarify it steel further with the help of an example. I presume that you are conversant with the operation of following domestic apparatuses (say any one of them). 1. Immersion rod to heat water. 2. Water geyser. 3. Tube heat exchanger used in industry. The above devices generally face surface scaling after a length of time. This scaling commences immediately on starting its operation but the scale formation on surface is progressive on time line and it becomes thicker and thicker on its usage. This scaling resists the prime operation of heat exchange and the device becomes more and more deficient on its thickness increase. The frame work of our mindset is a scaling and it resist the efficient use of our effective abilities and other qualities in us. As I have mentioned in my views in above file the rigidity of the frame work varies person to person (rigidity - thickness of scaling). If you analyze the working profile and strategy to deal with out side challenges of successful men in our society, you will realize that they have very mild frame work of their mindset (a thin scaling). As a result, they are able to use their abilities more efficiently. On other side, you might find more able men in the same field but lagging in their performance profile because their rigid mindset did not permit efficient application of their far better abilities. I think I have now clarified. The constitution of the above said frame work of mindset (mild or rigid) is influenced by some parameters that I have discussed in the above write up. We live in human society and our social constitution is different from the wild life system. Now, here is the question of our discussion... "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" with regards, Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 7:42 PM Annalie Pistorius < annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za> wrote: > Thank you Harshad, I got the file and read it. ?Mindset? sounds like the > something all motivational speakers and writers and philosophers try to > answer and work with and they call out different things. > > From your document, it sounds like you are saying that mindset is an > activity of reflection and an orientation? > > Annalie > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Harshad Dave > *Sent:* Sunday, 18 August 2019 3:10 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. > > > > > > Hi Annalie, > > I got your point and herewith I attach a docs file where I have explained > my views that interprets exactly what I understand about "mindset" of a > man. I want that all the participants of this discussion should have excess > to this file but I have not adequate grip in operating this > email_application of xmca-l so please help me confirming if you get the > excess or not. Further to this, the write up on mindset there in the > attached file is a part of an article that I write presently and it is on > different subject matter of social issue where mindset of man is a prime > influencing parameter and that compelled me to be clear on mindset. When I > wrote on mindset of a man as one of the topic of the article under my pen, > I found it necessary to peep into wild life system if animals are also > victim of this frame work of mindset or it is just in human social system > only. > > > > with regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 5:15 PM Annalie Pistorius < > annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za> wrote: > > Hello Harshad, > > There is Eugene Marais in South Africa who studied baboons and termites > with a similar question re ?the soul of the ape/ant? ? group behaviour that > is created rather than instinctual, with interesting theorising (I must > read myself). We need to shift our mindset to not separate man from animal, > appreciating interconnectedness and relationality perhaps, and this writer > was writing in this way. The second link will take you to a PDF file. > > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4198597-the-soul-of-the-ape > > > https://www.radiantlunatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TheSoulOfTheWhiteAnt.pdf > > But it looks like maybe you are asking how we do things contrary to the > good judgement and abilities that we have. Maybe you can clarify for us a > particular dilemma you have in mind, how you see this mindset, is it > something such as even though people have empathy and social skills, they > have a mindset that justifies them to hurt some people to reach their goals? > > Regards > > Annalie > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Harshad Dave > *Sent:* Saturday, 17 August 2019 11:08 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] The Mindset. > > > > Hi all, > > You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that he > developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his prevailing > age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside > world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not > permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and on > event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of abilities. > Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. > > > > "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" > > > > with true regards, > > > > Harshad Dave > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190819/2c5c1fd9/attachment.html From jamesma320@gmail.com Mon Aug 19 13:52:43 2019 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 21:52:43 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: <007001d555ce$c2cdaa60$4868ff20$@smu.ac.za> References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> <007001d555ce$c2cdaa60$4868ff20$@smu.ac.za> Message-ID: I think one of the central issues is that animals are not conceptual beings whereas humans are - this is more of a gripping point, as I see it. For example, dogs can recognise or differentiate colours; however, they don't have the concept of colour. One might even think that animals have morals, but this is perhaps simply a human interpretation! James *_______________________________________________________* *James Ma Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa * On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 15:12, Annalie Pistorius wrote: > Thank you Harshad, I got the file and read it. ?Mindset? sounds like the > something all motivational speakers and writers and philosophers try to > answer and work with and they call out different things. > > *From your document, it sounds like you are saying that mindset is an > activity of reflection and an orientation?* > > *Annalie * > > > > > > > *From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > On > Behalf Of Harshad DaveSent: Sunday, 18 August 2019 3:10 PMTo: eXtended > Mind, Culture, Activity >Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset.* > > > > > > *Hi Annalie,* > > *I got your point and herewith I attach a docs file where I have explained > my views that interprets exactly what I understand about "mindset" of a > man. I want that all the participants of this discussion should have excess > to this file but I have not adequate grip in operating this > email_application of xmca-l so please help me confirming if you get the > excess or not. Further to this, the write up on mindset there in the > attached file is a part of an article that I write presently and it is on > different subject matter of social issue where mindset of man is a prime > influencing parameter and that compelled me to be clear on mindset. When I > wrote on mindset of a man as one of the topic of the article under my pen, > I found it necessary to peep into wild life system if animals are also > victim of this frame work of mindset or it is just in human social system > only.* > > > > *with regards, * > > > > *Harshad Dave* > > > > > > *On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 5:15 PM Annalie Pistorius > > wrote:* > > *Hello Harshad,* > > *There is Eugene Marais in South Africa who studied baboons and termites > with a similar question re ?the soul of the ape/ant? ? group behaviour that > is created rather than instinctual, with interesting theorising (I must > read myself). We need to shift our mindset to not separate man from animal, > appreciating interconnectedness and relationality perhaps, and this writer > was writing in this way. The second link will take you to a PDF file. * > > *https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4198597-the-soul-of-the-ape > * > > *https://www.radiantlunatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TheSoulOfTheWhiteAnt.pdf > * > > *But it looks like maybe you are asking how we do things contrary to the > good judgement and abilities that we have. Maybe you can clarify for us a > particular dilemma you have in mind, how you see this mindset, is it > something such as even though people have empathy and social skills, they > have a mindset that justifies them to hurt some people to reach their > goals?* > > *Regards* > > *Annalie* > > > > > > > > > *From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > On > Behalf Of Harshad DaveSent: Saturday, 17 August 2019 11:08 AMTo: eXtended > Mind, Culture, Activity >Subject: [Xmca-l] The Mindset.* > > > > *Hi all,* > > *You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that he > developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his prevailing > age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside > world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not > permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and on > event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of abilities. > Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point.* > > > > *"Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?"* > > > > *with true regards,* > > > > *Harshad Dave * > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190819/1b9daa17/attachment.html From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Mon Aug 19 17:37:23 2019 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (=?UTF-8?Q?=E3=82=A6=E3=82=A3=E3=83=AB=E3=82=AD=E3=83=B3?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E3=82=BD=E3=83=B3=E3=80=80=E3=83=B4=E3=82=A1?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E3=83=AC=E3=83=AA?=) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 09:37:23 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Moving in groups is a behavior that occurs in animals: a flock, a herd, a pride, a hive. Mindset has bunches to do with collective mentality. Groups isolate members, rank members, partner or pair or mate in communities. The care of the young among elephants is a communal activity. There have been fun videos of herding dogs herding people. In my own family, the Shepherd guarded and watched out for us. The selection of a puppy with behavior characteristics was a big deal. So in this collective group of academics, which of the mindset frames is operating as we work with this question? "Break the pattern which connects the items of learning and you necessarily destroy all quality." (Gregory Bateson. *Mind and Nature: A Necessary Unity* p.8) Vandy (Valerie Wilkinson) ------Original Message------ ????"James Ma" ???"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ??? ???[Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. ???2019?08?20?(?) 05:52(+0900) I think one of the central issues is that animals are not conceptual beings whereas humans are - this is more of a gripping point, as I see it. For example, dogs can recognise or differentiate colours; however, they don't have the concept of colour. One might even think that animals have morals, but this is perhaps simply a human interpretation! James _______________________________________________________ James Ma Independent Scholarhttps://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 15:12, Annalie Pistorius wrote: Thank you Harshad, I got the file and read it. ?Mindset? sounds like the something all motivational speakers and writers and philosophers try to answer and work with and they call out different things. From your document, it sounds like you are saying that mindset is an activity of reflection and an orientation? Annalie From:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.eduOn Behalf OfHarshad Dave Sent:Sunday, 18 August 2019 3:10 PM To:eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject:[Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. Hi Annalie, I got your point and herewith I attach a docs file where I have explained my views that interprets exactly what I understand about "mindset" of a man. I want that all the participants of this discussion should have excess to this file but I have not adequate grip in operating this email_application of xmca-l so please help me confirming if you get the excess or not. Further to this, the write up on mindset there in the attached file is a part of an article that I write presently and it is on different subject matter of social issue where mindset of man is a prime influencing parameter and that compelled me to be clear on mindset. When I wrote on mindset of a man as one of the topic of the article under my pen, I found it necessary to peep into wild life system if animals are also victim of this frame work of mindset or it is just in human social system only. with regards, Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 5:15 PM Annalie Pistorius wrote: Hello Harshad, There is Eugene Marais in South Africa who studied baboons and termites with a similar question re ?the soul of the ape/ant? ? group behaviour that is created rather than instinctual, with interesting theorising (I must read myself). We need to shift our mindset to not separate man from animal, appreciating interconnectedness and relationality perhaps, and this writer was writing in this way. The second link will take you to a PDF file. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4198597-the-soul-of-the-ape https://www.radiantlunatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TheSoulOfTheWhiteAnt.pdf But it looks like maybe you are asking how we do things contrary to the good judgement and abilities that we have. Maybe you can clarify for us a particular dilemma you have in mind, how you see this mindset, is it something such as even though people have empathy and social skills, they have a mindset that justifies them to hurt some people to reach their goals? Regards Annalie From:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.eduOn Behalf OfHarshad Dave Sent:Saturday, 17 August 2019 11:08 AM To:eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject:[Xmca-l] The Mindset. Hi all, You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" with true regards, Harshad Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190820/07712923/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Mon Aug 19 21:08:44 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 09:38:44 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> <007001d555ce$c2cdaa60$4868ff20$@smu.ac.za> Message-ID: James, Thanks for your view point. What you say there in is convincing, but do animals sustain any undue deformation in their mind that might project adverse effect in their original natural performance? I agree it is very difficult to ascertain. For example, we find people that are very conservative or some people are victim of habit of contracting preoccupation of their mind while dealing with outside world, and due to this, their performance becomes inefficient or they also risk failure in the task.Do we find such deformation in animals? with regards, Harshad Dave On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 2:30 AM James Ma wrote: > I think one of the central issues is that animals are not conceptual > beings whereas humans are - this is more of a gripping point, as I see it. > For example, dogs can recognise or differentiate colours; however, they > don't have the concept of colour. > One might even think that animals have morals, but this is perhaps simply > a human interpretation! > > James > > > *_______________________________________________________* > > *James Ma Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa > * > > > > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 15:12, Annalie Pistorius < > annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za> wrote: > >> Thank you Harshad, I got the file and read it. ?Mindset? sounds like the >> something all motivational speakers and writers and philosophers try to >> answer and work with and they call out different things. >> >> *From your document, it sounds like you are saying that mindset is an >> activity of reflection and an orientation?* >> >> *Annalie * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > On >> Behalf Of Harshad DaveSent: Sunday, 18 August 2019 3:10 PMTo: eXtended >> Mind, Culture, Activity > >Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset.* >> >> >> >> >> >> *Hi Annalie,* >> >> *I got your point and herewith I attach a docs file where I have >> explained my views that interprets exactly what I understand about >> "mindset" of a man. I want that all the participants of this discussion >> should have excess to this file but I have not adequate grip in operating >> this email_application of xmca-l so please help me confirming if you get >> the excess or not. Further to this, the write up on mindset there in the >> attached file is a part of an article that I write presently and it is on >> different subject matter of social issue where mindset of man is a prime >> influencing parameter and that compelled me to be clear on mindset. When I >> wrote on mindset of a man as one of the topic of the article under my pen, >> I found it necessary to peep into wild life system if animals are also >> victim of this frame work of mindset or it is just in human social system >> only.* >> >> >> >> *with regards, * >> >> >> >> *Harshad Dave* >> >> >> >> >> >> *On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 5:15 PM Annalie Pistorius >> > wrote:* >> >> *Hello Harshad,* >> >> *There is Eugene Marais in South Africa who studied baboons and termites >> with a similar question re ?the soul of the ape/ant? ? group behaviour that >> is created rather than instinctual, with interesting theorising (I must >> read myself). We need to shift our mindset to not separate man from animal, >> appreciating interconnectedness and relationality perhaps, and this writer >> was writing in this way. The second link will take you to a PDF file. * >> >> *https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4198597-the-soul-of-the-ape >> * >> >> *https://www.radiantlunatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TheSoulOfTheWhiteAnt.pdf >> * >> >> *But it looks like maybe you are asking how we do things contrary to the >> good judgement and abilities that we have. Maybe you can clarify for us a >> particular dilemma you have in mind, how you see this mindset, is it >> something such as even though people have empathy and social skills, they >> have a mindset that justifies them to hurt some people to reach their >> goals?* >> >> *Regards* >> >> *Annalie* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > On >> Behalf Of Harshad DaveSent: Saturday, 17 August 2019 11:08 AMTo: eXtended >> Mind, Culture, Activity > >Subject: [Xmca-l] The Mindset.* >> >> >> >> *Hi all,* >> >> *You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point.* >> >> >> >> *"Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?"* >> >> >> >> *with true regards,* >> >> >> >> *Harshad Dave * >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190820/33a805fd/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Aug 20 05:56:48 2019 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 13:56:48 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Harshard, I have skimmed through your document. You might want to compare your conception with Vygotsky's conception of a "zone of proximal development" found in the volume thinking and speech, p.209 in the 1987 plenum press edition, or the 170th page marked as page 208 in this pdf link: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/words/Thinking-and-Speech.pdf It might also be beneficial to distinguish, carefully, what is meant by a skill or ability in the context of a circumstance where it is misapplied, for example, to distinguish genuine understanding and construal (appropriate orientation). My prior points still stand in relation to my interpretation of your questions and descriptions. Your binary predicate is "in a wild life system". What is a wild life system and why is this necessary in the context of a developmental study? Is an ant nest along with its recognised material needs, transported to a laboratory, a "wild" system? Is a dolphin in a large pool? Is an octopus with a camera? Is any creature with anything novel? With respect to your binary question about whether animals do or do not have a "mindset", this is predicated upon your definition. If your definition is based upon intention, then the answer is yes. If your definition isn't based upon intention, I would probably question your conception more, i.e. the genesis of "mindset". It is necessary to realise that this is a developmental (genetic) answer to your question. Best, Huw On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 14:39, Harshad Dave wrote: > Huw, > I am sorry, perhaps I posted a reply to you by mistake that otherwise I > should have sent to Greg. Now I have corrected it and I regret for > inconvenience. Please refer the attached file I sent along with a message > to Annalie participating this discussion. If you do not get the access, > please communicate and I shall attach the same for you again. > I think, after going through the views on mindset of man in the above > subject file you will have clear idea what exactly I target in my question. > with regards, > > > Harshad Dave > > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 10:44 AM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> I think more clarity is required in applying a binary predicate to a >> developmental context. >> >> >> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 04:12, Harshad Dave wrote: >> >>> My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. >>> >>> >>> Harshad Dave >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>>>> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>>>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>>>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>>>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>>>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>>>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>>>> >>>>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>>>> >>>>> with true regards, >>>>> >>>>> Harshad Dave >>>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190820/80a721e5/attachment.html From jamesma320@gmail.com Wed Aug 21 14:01:11 2019 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 22:01:11 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> <007001d555ce$c2cdaa60$4868ff20$@smu.ac.za> Message-ID: Hello Harshad, One thing certain is that, from an ethological perspective, both human and non-human animals have innate releasing mechanisms (IRMs) allowing them to respond to stimuli encountered in the environment. I don't think voluntary control in thought or action comes and goes solitarily; rather it is foreshadowed by or tinged with involuntary control. James *_______________________________________________________* *James Ma Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa * On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 05:12, Harshad Dave wrote: > > > James, > Thanks for your view point. What you say there in is convincing, but do > animals sustain any undue deformation in their mind that might project > adverse effect in their original natural performance? I agree it is very > difficult to ascertain. For example, we find people that are very > conservative or some people are victim of habit of contracting > preoccupation of their mind while dealing with outside world, and due to > this, their performance becomes inefficient or they also risk failure in > the task.Do we find such deformation in animals? > with regards, > > Harshad Dave > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 2:30 AM James Ma wrote: > >> I think one of the central issues is that animals are not conceptual >> beings whereas humans are - this is more of a gripping point, as I see it. >> For example, dogs can recognise or differentiate colours; however, they >> don't have the concept of colour. >> One might even think that animals have morals, but this is perhaps simply >> a human interpretation! >> >> James >> >> >> *_______________________________________________________* >> >> *James Ma Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa >> * >> >> >> >> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 15:12, Annalie Pistorius < >> annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za> wrote: >> >>> Thank you Harshad, I got the file and read it. ?Mindset? sounds like the >>> something all motivational speakers and writers and philosophers try to >>> answer and work with and they call out different things. >>> >>> *From your document, it sounds like you are saying that mindset is an >>> activity of reflection and an orientation?* >>> >>> *Annalie * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> > On >>> Behalf Of Harshad DaveSent: Sunday, 18 August 2019 3:10 PMTo: eXtended >>> Mind, Culture, Activity >> >Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset.* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Hi Annalie,* >>> >>> *I got your point and herewith I attach a docs file where I have >>> explained my views that interprets exactly what I understand about >>> "mindset" of a man. I want that all the participants of this discussion >>> should have excess to this file but I have not adequate grip in operating >>> this email_application of xmca-l so please help me confirming if you get >>> the excess or not. Further to this, the write up on mindset there in the >>> attached file is a part of an article that I write presently and it is on >>> different subject matter of social issue where mindset of man is a prime >>> influencing parameter and that compelled me to be clear on mindset. When I >>> wrote on mindset of a man as one of the topic of the article under my pen, >>> I found it necessary to peep into wild life system if animals are also >>> victim of this frame work of mindset or it is just in human social system >>> only.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *with regards, * >>> >>> >>> >>> *Harshad Dave* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 5:15 PM Annalie Pistorius >>> > wrote:* >>> >>> *Hello Harshad,* >>> >>> *There is Eugene Marais in South Africa who studied baboons and termites >>> with a similar question re ?the soul of the ape/ant? ? group behaviour that >>> is created rather than instinctual, with interesting theorising (I must >>> read myself). We need to shift our mindset to not separate man from animal, >>> appreciating interconnectedness and relationality perhaps, and this writer >>> was writing in this way. The second link will take you to a PDF file. * >>> >>> *https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4198597-the-soul-of-the-ape >>> * >>> >>> *https://www.radiantlunatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TheSoulOfTheWhiteAnt.pdf >>> * >>> >>> *But it looks like maybe you are asking how we do things contrary to the >>> good judgement and abilities that we have. Maybe you can clarify for us a >>> particular dilemma you have in mind, how you see this mindset, is it >>> something such as even though people have empathy and social skills, they >>> have a mindset that justifies them to hurt some people to reach their >>> goals?* >>> >>> *Regards* >>> >>> *Annalie* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> > On >>> Behalf Of Harshad DaveSent: Saturday, 17 August 2019 11:08 AMTo: eXtended >>> Mind, Culture, Activity >> >Subject: [Xmca-l] The Mindset.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Hi all,* >>> >>> *You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *"Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?"* >>> >>> >>> >>> *with true regards,* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Harshad Dave * >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190821/0bea632f/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Wed Aug 21 20:38:42 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:08:42 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw, Thanks for your message dated 20 August. I put my reply in red/brownish fonts. Your words: I have skimmed through your document. You might want to compare your conception with Vygotsky's conception of a "zone of proximal development" found in the volume thinking and speech, p.209 in the 1987 plenum press edition, or the 170th page marked as page 208 in this pdf link: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/words/Thinking-and-Speech.pdf My saying: I read it at the mentioned page (slightly before the page 208 starting from no. 4 on page 207). I have put my independent observation on the above writings in a docs file that I shall attach with my message in couple of days as it does not form a part of my saying. Vygotsky is talking in particular topic issue and it is different though it impresses some similarity at a glancing view. I confirm that subject matter/topic is different from that of in our discussion. Your words: It might also be beneficial to distinguish, carefully, what is meant by a skill or ability in the context of a circumstance where it is misapplied, for example, to distinguish genuine understanding and construal (appropriate orientation). My prior points still stand in relation to my interpretation of your questions and descriptions. [Noted] My saying: You are right; I should give short introduction of my understanding/concept about ?ability?. When we use the word ability it is a general addressing or it means overall ability. In fact, it is more convenient if we segregate our ability in various independent slots. For example, leopard?s ability to climb a tree is more powerful than that of a lion. But, the muscle power of a lion is higher in folds than that of a leopard. It means, if we talk about comparison of ability between a lion and leopard, the slot of tree climbing ability is higher but the slot of muscle power ability of a leopard is lower than that of a lion. It is equally true for men also. The overall ability of a man is constituted of different slots of particular abilities. The potential of ability in each slot varies person to person. Person A might get proved weak against person B, but, A is powerful in that particular slot only. There is a fair possibility that B might be more powerful than A in one or more other slots of abilities. There are innumerable slots of various abilities in our overall ability. [If you need to know further detail analysis of ?ability? I request to open the following link where I have presented the same in detail. Article title: ?Ability ? The spine of economics? Link: https://www.academia.edu/36050375/Ability_The_spine_of_economics ] Your words: Your binary predicate is "in a wild life system". What is a wild life system and why is this necessary in the context of a developmental study? Is an ant nest along with its recognised material needs, transported to a laboratory, a "wild" system? Is a dolphin in a large pool? Is an octopus with a camera? Is any creature with anything novel? My saying: Once upon a time before hundreds of thousands of years, our great ancestors were making living in a savage group living. A human society evolved progressively and *the social system* was different than that of *the wild life system*. The wild life system is a system run and controlled by fully natural laws only. The use of phrase *wild life system* is simple and I request you not to make it complicated unnecessarily. It is used just to distinguish it from human social system. If you need to go in detail separation between the two (*wild life system* and *human social system*), I request you to refer on following web link: http://armgpublishing.sumdu.edu.ua/journals/fmir/volume-2-issue-2/article-6/) at page no. 70 to 74 (Fetus of Exchange Process). Your words: With respect to your binary question about whether animals do or do not have a "mindset", this is predicated upon your definition. If your definition is based upon intention, then the answer is yes. If your definition isn't based upon intention, I would probably question your conception more, i.e. the genesis of "mindset". It is necessary to realise that this is a developmental (genetic) answer to your question. My saying: Yes I agree with your saying as above. But, if you read my message along with the file (I had attached) that clears/describes ?what I understand about the constitution of mindset?, I am specific on the issue. My views on the constitution of ?mindset? have a foundation of practical observations of facts that we face/observe in the society around us. If you recall your classmate of high school (Secondary school) you will find some of them with splendid record of his student carrier. You will also recall some students of last bench who were not with satisfactory performance in the school carrier. But, if we trace out them at present, many of them out of the *last bench dwellers* are with splendid achievements in their post life after education/graduation and few of from bright carrier are with moderate achievements. I have served in various offices with different responsibilities. I came across and observed them with different aspects and angles. I realized that they had many powerful slots of abilities and genuine characteristics but they contracted or suffered from typical mindset that never allow them to deal with other people of his own department or from other department in a way that might generate a positive, good or pleasant impact on the minds of the people dealing with them. In other words, I say, their mindset did not permit exposer of his various powerful abilities and characteristics while dealing other people. In my views as I explained in a message to Annalie, mindset is one type of scaling like layer that resist the exposer of person?s true potential. You have pointed out if my definition is based upon intention or not and accordingly the reply to my question might be given. I clarify and explain as follow, I have narrated my views on the constitution of mindset in the attached file. There, I have taken three influencing parameters (page 2) that constitutes the mindset. However, I know there might be still more parameters also, but, I believe, one cannot wait till he becomes master of all before writing an article or presenting his views. When I was writing on the above parameters?. Perhaps you might agree with me?. We constantly face new thinking in our mind when we are busy in writing on some issue/topics. Here also, at that time it came to my mind if animals face such problem of development of mindset as they grow. If they face the same then which might be the influencing parameters?..... and I put it on xmca-l. There is no point of ?intention?. I hope I have clarified. with regards, Harshad Dave. On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 6:29 PM Huw Lloyd wrote: > Harshard, > > I have skimmed through your document. You might want to compare your > conception with Vygotsky's conception of a "zone of proximal development" > found in the volume thinking and speech, p.209 in the 1987 plenum press > edition, or the 170th page marked as page 208 in this pdf link: > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/words/Thinking-and-Speech.pdf > > It might also be beneficial to distinguish, carefully, what is meant by a > skill or ability in the context of a circumstance where it is misapplied, > for example, to distinguish genuine understanding and construal > (appropriate orientation). > > My prior points still stand in relation to my interpretation of your > questions and descriptions. > > Your binary predicate is "in a wild life system". What is a wild life > system and why is this necessary in the context of a developmental study? > Is an ant nest along with its recognised material needs, transported to a > laboratory, a "wild" system? Is a dolphin in a large pool? Is an octopus > with a camera? Is any creature with anything novel? > > With respect to your binary question about whether animals do or do not > have a "mindset", this is predicated upon your definition. If your > definition is based upon intention, then the answer is yes. If your > definition isn't based upon intention, I would probably question your > conception more, i.e. the genesis of "mindset". It is necessary to realise > that this is a developmental (genetic) answer to your question. > > Best, > Huw > > > > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 14:39, Harshad Dave wrote: > >> Huw, >> I am sorry, perhaps I posted a reply to you by mistake that otherwise I >> should have sent to Greg. Now I have corrected it and I regret for >> inconvenience. Please refer the attached file I sent along with a message >> to Annalie participating this discussion. If you do not get the access, >> please communicate and I shall attach the same for you again. >> I think, after going through the views on mindset of man in the above >> subject file you will have clear idea what exactly I target in my question. >> with regards, >> >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 10:44 AM Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >> >>> I think more clarity is required in applying a binary predicate to a >>> developmental context. >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 04:12, Harshad Dave wrote: >>> >>>> My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. >>>> >>>> >>>> Harshad Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset >>>>>> that he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>>>>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>>>>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>>>>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>>>>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>>>>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>>>>> >>>>>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>>>>> >>>>>> with true regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Harshad Dave >>>>>> >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190822/c876c41f/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Wed Aug 21 20:48:07 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:18:07 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> <007001d555ce$c2cdaa60$4868ff20$@smu.ac.za> Message-ID: Hello James. You point is correct as far as response to out side world is concerned. However, my point is different. For example, we find conservative/orthodox people in our human society. Do we find such mindset in animals in wild life system? regards, Harshad Dave On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 2:34 AM James Ma wrote: > Hello Harshad, > One thing certain is that, from an ethological perspective, both human and > non-human animals have innate releasing mechanisms (IRMs) allowing them to > respond to stimuli encountered in the environment. I don't think voluntary > control in thought or action comes and goes solitarily; rather it is > foreshadowed by or tinged with involuntary control. > James > > > *_______________________________________________________* > > *James Ma Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa > * > > On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 05:12, Harshad Dave wrote: > >> >> >> James, >> Thanks for your view point. What you say there in is convincing, but do >> animals sustain any undue deformation in their mind that might project >> adverse effect in their original natural performance? I agree it is very >> difficult to ascertain. For example, we find people that are very >> conservative or some people are victim of habit of contracting >> preoccupation of their mind while dealing with outside world, and due to >> this, their performance becomes inefficient or they also risk failure in >> the task.Do we find such deformation in animals? >> with regards, >> >> Harshad Dave >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 2:30 AM James Ma wrote: >> >>> I think one of the central issues is that animals are not conceptual >>> beings whereas humans are - this is more of a gripping point, as I see it. >>> For example, dogs can recognise or differentiate colours; however, they >>> don't have the concept of colour. >>> One might even think that animals have morals, but this is perhaps >>> simply a human interpretation! >>> >>> James >>> >>> >>> *_______________________________________________________* >>> >>> *James Ma Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 15:12, Annalie Pistorius < >>> annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za> wrote: >>> >>>> Thank you Harshad, I got the file and read it. ?Mindset? sounds like >>>> the something all motivational speakers and writers and philosophers try to >>>> answer and work with and they call out different things. >>>> >>>> *From your document, it sounds like you are saying that mindset is an >>>> activity of reflection and an orientation?* >>>> >>>> *Annalie * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>> > On Behalf Of Harshad DaveSent: Sunday, >>>> 18 August 2019 3:10 PMTo: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: >>>> The Mindset.* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Hi Annalie,* >>>> >>>> *I got your point and herewith I attach a docs file where I have >>>> explained my views that interprets exactly what I understand about >>>> "mindset" of a man. I want that all the participants of this discussion >>>> should have excess to this file but I have not adequate grip in operating >>>> this email_application of xmca-l so please help me confirming if you get >>>> the excess or not. Further to this, the write up on mindset there in the >>>> attached file is a part of an article that I write presently and it is on >>>> different subject matter of social issue where mindset of man is a prime >>>> influencing parameter and that compelled me to be clear on mindset. When I >>>> wrote on mindset of a man as one of the topic of the article under my pen, >>>> I found it necessary to peep into wild life system if animals are also >>>> victim of this frame work of mindset or it is just in human social system >>>> only.* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *with regards, * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Harshad Dave* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 5:15 PM Annalie Pistorius >>>> > wrote:* >>>> >>>> *Hello Harshad,* >>>> >>>> *There is Eugene Marais in South Africa who studied baboons and >>>> termites with a similar question re ?the soul of the ape/ant? ? group >>>> behaviour that is created rather than instinctual, with interesting >>>> theorising (I must read myself). We need to shift our mindset to not >>>> separate man from animal, appreciating interconnectedness and relationality >>>> perhaps, and this writer was writing in this way. The second link will take >>>> you to a PDF file. * >>>> >>>> *https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4198597-the-soul-of-the-ape >>>> * >>>> >>>> *https://www.radiantlunatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TheSoulOfTheWhiteAnt.pdf >>>> * >>>> >>>> *But it looks like maybe you are asking how we do things contrary to >>>> the good judgement and abilities that we have. Maybe you can clarify for us >>>> a particular dilemma you have in mind, how you see this mindset, is it >>>> something such as even though people have empathy and social skills, they >>>> have a mindset that justifies them to hurt some people to reach their >>>> goals?* >>>> >>>> *Regards* >>>> >>>> *Annalie* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>> > On Behalf Of Harshad DaveSent: Saturday, >>>> 17 August 2019 11:08 AMTo: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >Subject: [Xmca-l] The >>>> Mindset.* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Hi all,* >>>> >>>> *You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>>> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point.* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *"Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?"* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *with true regards,* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Harshad Dave * >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190822/a244e1b5/attachment.html From hhdave15@gmail.com Wed Aug 21 21:07:02 2019 From: hhdave15@gmail.com (Harshad Dave) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:37:02 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Derek (if I may), Thanks for your message. I regret I could not respond it timely. I opened the web links and visited the web there. I think it seems too far from the subject matter in discussion, even if it has any link with the subject matter, it is beyond my capacity to evaluate it reliably. I think, at this stage, it is more convenient if we take examples of big animals in jungle. with regards, Harshad Dave On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 11:39 AM Derek Worley Patton < derekpatton19@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Folks, > > As a child and family psychologist and once-was a marine biologist, I > found a recent documentary fascinating about how, on some reefs, and in > this case filmed and documented, an octopus and grouper co-operated to stay > on either side of a coral complex (not very thick) and each would attempt > to attack the hiding smaller fish. The octopus would send in tenticales and > sometime the fish would be chased into the mouth of the waiting grouper. > Sometimes the grouper would attack and the octopus caught the fish coming > out the other side. There were not enough observations to get a ratio of > who got more. But quite clearly boxing in the fish from two sides is a > win-wait, wait-win strategy with more chance of success than a one-sided > attack independently. There are other testimonies of this sort between > species by marine biologists, but this was the most recent and best > documented (although I don?t spend time chasing these up.) > > So...if this is true, then both species can change their parameters or > mindsets (understanding?) about what another creature in their environment > can and will do. It only works if both species can do this in a reasonable > time with limited numbers of examples. Perchance once one of them benefits > accidentally from the other presence. But two accidents close together? > Each would have had to remember the previous incident long enough to > predict the future (?) or consequences of hunting opposite the other hunter > at the same time. Interestingly, neither tried to steal the captured prey > from the other. So fish and octopus develop a sense of fair play, > reciprocity, win some loose some? This is all to few incidents i would > think to argue ?shaping? behaviour like training chickens or rats to tap > out patterns to obtain the reward drink or food in a cage. > > Interested as to what the rest of think. > > > > > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/11/11/octopus-fish-join-forces-hunt-prey-filming-first-blue-planet/ > > > > or > > > https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/04/24/groupers-use-gestures-to-recruit-morays-for-hunting-team-ups/ > > > > cheers, derek > > drderek@strivetogather.com > > Honorary Fellow, University of Melbourne > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Harshad Dave > *Sent:* Sunday, August 18, 2019 5:47:48 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. > > > Thanks for your help. > I opened the link and read the information on it. The word *umwelt *is > more towards biological and evolutionary links. Here my subject matter > pertains to socio political economics. The prime target is as follow, > > The process of contracting a mindset is influenced by some prime > parameters in our social system. Such parameters do not exist in the wild > life system. If it is true, then, either animals never contract a mind set > or if it is a fact that they also contract a mind set, then which > parameters are responsible in wild life system for the same? > > I agree the matter is sticky and clumsy to determine. > > > Harshad Dave > > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 9:50 AM Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Umwelt is a term that has been used that might be close to what you >> describe: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umwelt >> >> >> -greg >> >> On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 9:12 PM Harshad Dave wrote: >> >>> My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. >>> >>> >>> Harshad Dave >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset that >>>>> he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>>>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>>>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>>>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>>>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>>>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>>>> >>>>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>>>> >>>>> with true regards, >>>>> >>>>> Harshad Dave >>>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu >> >> >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190822/eb310ea9/attachment.html From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Aug 22 04:30:31 2019 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:30:31 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Mindset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 04:40, Harshad Dave wrote: > > Huw, > > > > Thanks for your message dated 20 August. I put my reply in red/brownish > fonts. > > > > Your words: > > I have skimmed through your document. You might want to compare your > conception with Vygotsky's conception of a "zone of proximal development" > found in the volume thinking and speech, p.209 in the 1987 plenum press > edition, or the 170th page marked as page 208 in this pdf link: > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/words/Thinking-and-Speech.pdf > > > > My saying: I read it at the mentioned page (slightly before the page 208 > starting from no. 4 on page 207). I have put my independent observation on > the above writings in a docs file that I shall attach with my message in > couple of days as it does not form a part of my saying. Vygotsky is talking > in particular topic issue and it is different though it impresses some > similarity at a glancing view. I confirm that subject matter/topic is > different from that of in our discussion. > > > Assuming for some precision in your writing, Harshad, this conclusion that the "subject matter is different" is probably part-and-parcel of the issue. Best, Huw > Your words: > > It might also be beneficial to distinguish, carefully, what is meant by a > skill or ability in the context of a circumstance where it is misapplied, > for example, to distinguish genuine understanding and construal > (appropriate orientation). > > > > My prior points still stand in relation to my interpretation of your > questions and descriptions. [Noted] > > > > My saying: You are right; I should give short introduction of my > understanding/concept about ?ability?. > > When we use the word ability it is a general addressing or it means > overall ability. In fact, it is more convenient if we segregate our ability > in various independent slots. For example, leopard?s ability to climb a > tree is more powerful than that of a lion. But, the muscle power of a lion > is higher in folds than that of a leopard. It means, if we talk about > comparison of ability between a lion and leopard, the slot of tree climbing > ability is higher but the slot of muscle power ability of a leopard is > lower than that of a lion. It is equally true for men also. The overall > ability of a man is constituted of different slots of particular abilities. > The potential of ability in each slot varies person to person. Person A > might get proved weak against person B, but, A is powerful in that > particular slot only. There is a fair possibility that B might be more > powerful than A in one or more other slots of abilities. There are > innumerable slots of various abilities in our overall ability. > > [If you need to know further detail analysis of ?ability? I request to > open the following link where I have presented the same in detail. Article > title: ?Ability ? The spine of economics? > > Link: https://www.academia.edu/36050375/Ability_The_spine_of_economics ] > > > > > > > > Your words: > > Your binary predicate is "in a wild life system". What is a wild life > system and why is this necessary in the context of a developmental study? > Is an ant nest along with its recognised material needs, transported to a > laboratory, a "wild" system? Is a dolphin in a large pool? Is an octopus > with a camera? Is any creature with anything novel? > > > > My saying: Once upon a time before hundreds of thousands of years, our > great ancestors were making living in a savage group living. A human > society evolved progressively and *the social system* was different than > that of *the wild life system*. The wild life system is a system run and > controlled by fully natural laws only. The use of phrase *wild life > system* is simple and I request you not to make it complicated > unnecessarily. It is used just to distinguish it from human social system. > > If you need to go in detail separation between the two (*wild life system* > and *human social system*), I request you to refer on following web link: > http://armgpublishing.sumdu.edu.ua/journals/fmir/volume-2-issue-2/article-6/) > at page no. 70 to 74 (Fetus of Exchange Process). > > > > Your words: > > With respect to your binary question about whether animals do or do not > have a "mindset", this is predicated upon your definition. If your > definition is based upon intention, then the answer is yes. If your > definition isn't based upon intention, I would probably question your > conception more, i.e. the genesis of "mindset". It is necessary to realise > that this is a developmental (genetic) answer to your question. > > > > My saying: Yes I agree with your saying as above. But, if you read my > message along with the file (I had attached) that clears/describes ?what I > understand about the constitution of mindset?, I am specific on the issue. > My views on the constitution of ?mindset? have a foundation of practical > observations of facts that we face/observe in the society around us. > > If you recall your classmate of high school (Secondary school) you will > find some of them with splendid record of his student carrier. You will > also recall some students of last bench who were not with satisfactory > performance in the school carrier. But, if we trace out them at present, > many of them out of the *last bench dwellers* are with splendid > achievements in their post life after education/graduation and few of from > bright carrier are with moderate achievements. I have served in various > offices with different responsibilities. I came across and observed them > with different aspects and angles. I realized that they had many powerful > slots of abilities and genuine characteristics but they contracted or > suffered from typical mindset that never allow them to deal with other > people of his own department or from other department in a way that might > generate a positive, good or pleasant impact on the minds of the people > dealing with them. In other words, I say, their mindset did not permit > exposer of his various powerful abilities and characteristics while dealing > other people. In my views as I explained in a message to Annalie, mindset > is one type of scaling like layer that resist the exposer of person?s true > potential. > > > > You have pointed out if my definition is based upon intention or not and > accordingly the reply to my question might be given. I clarify and explain > as follow, > > > > I have narrated my views on the constitution of mindset in the attached > file. There, I have taken three influencing parameters (page 2) that > constitutes the mindset. However, I know there might be still more > parameters also, but, I believe, one cannot wait till he becomes master of > all before writing an article or presenting his views. When I was writing > on the above parameters?. Perhaps you might agree with me?. We constantly > face new thinking in our mind when we are busy in writing on some > issue/topics. Here also, at that time it came to my mind if animals face > such problem of development of mindset as they grow. If they face the same > then which might be the influencing parameters?..... and I put it on > xmca-l. There is no point of ?intention?. I hope I have clarified. > > > > with regards, > > > > Harshad Dave. > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 6:29 PM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> Harshard, >> >> I have skimmed through your document. You might want to compare your >> conception with Vygotsky's conception of a "zone of proximal development" >> found in the volume thinking and speech, p.209 in the 1987 plenum press >> edition, or the 170th page marked as page 208 in this pdf link: >> >> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/words/Thinking-and-Speech.pdf >> >> It might also be beneficial to distinguish, carefully, what is meant by a >> skill or ability in the context of a circumstance where it is misapplied, >> for example, to distinguish genuine understanding and construal >> (appropriate orientation). >> >> My prior points still stand in relation to my interpretation of your >> questions and descriptions. >> >> Your binary predicate is "in a wild life system". What is a wild life >> system and why is this necessary in the context of a developmental study? >> Is an ant nest along with its recognised material needs, transported to a >> laboratory, a "wild" system? Is a dolphin in a large pool? Is an octopus >> with a camera? Is any creature with anything novel? >> >> With respect to your binary question about whether animals do or do not >> have a "mindset", this is predicated upon your definition. If your >> definition is based upon intention, then the answer is yes. If your >> definition isn't based upon intention, I would probably question your >> conception more, i.e. the genesis of "mindset". It is necessary to realise >> that this is a developmental (genetic) answer to your question. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 14:39, Harshad Dave wrote: >> >>> Huw, >>> I am sorry, perhaps I posted a reply to you by mistake that otherwise I >>> should have sent to Greg. Now I have corrected it and I regret for >>> inconvenience. Please refer the attached file I sent along with a message >>> to Annalie participating this discussion. If you do not get the access, >>> please communicate and I shall attach the same for you again. >>> I think, after going through the views on mindset of man in the above >>> subject file you will have clear idea what exactly I target in my question. >>> with regards, >>> >>> >>> Harshad Dave >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 10:44 AM Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think more clarity is required in applying a binary predicate to a >>>> developmental context. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 04:12, Harshad Dave wrote: >>>> >>>>> My question is if animals contract a mind set in wild life system. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Harshad Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:12 PM Huw Lloyd >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Some people have voluntary control over their 'mindset'. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 10:10, Harshad Dave >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> You will agree that no man in this world is free from his mindset >>>>>>> that he developed during the journey of his growth from childhood to his >>>>>>> prevailing age. His mindset plays an influential role while he deals with >>>>>>> outside world. Even if the person has competent abilities, his mindset may >>>>>>> not permit the application of his appropriate abilities at right time and >>>>>>> on event, as if it (mindset) is a filter put before application of >>>>>>> abilities. Presently I am working on it and I need your help at one point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Do animals have mindset or they are free from it?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> with true regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Harshad Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190822/69748632/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Thu Aug 22 07:32:21 2019 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:32:21 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Burning... In-Reply-To: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> Message-ID: <1779C4A7-4A71-47CD-85F8-B4D879E3923F@cantab.net> Which is more important to save from the flames? Notre Dame, or the Amazon forests? sigh Martin From julie.waddington@udg.edu Thu Aug 22 09:50:25 2019 From: julie.waddington@udg.edu (JULIE WADDINGTON) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 16:50:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: <1779C4A7-4A71-47CD-85F8-B4D879E3923F@cantab.net> References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za>, <1779C4A7-4A71-47CD-85F8-B4D879E3923F@cantab.net> Message-ID: And which of the two have the media in our different countries chosen to focus our attention on? Very big sigh, Julie ________________________________________ De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] en nom de Martin Packer [mpacker@cantab.net] Enviat el: dijous, 22 / agost / 2019 16:32 Per a: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Tema: [Xmca-l] Burning... Which is more important to save from the flames? Notre Dame, or the Amazon forests? sigh Martin From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Thu Aug 22 10:57:35 2019 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:57:35 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> <1779C4A7-4A71-47CD-85F8-B4D879E3923F@cantab.net> Message-ID: Amazon is burning, but also: There is a genocide of indigenous people. There is a genocide of the poor (helicopters are dropping grenades on favelas, but only favelas not controlled by the militias - because the Bolsonaro family is very very close to the militias). There is a total privatization of the Brazilian State. There is the destruction of Brazilian science (probably I won't go to ISCAR next year for I do not have money, nor the public university where I study). There is a total subservience to USA. Back to the forest, why it burns? For the profit of big real state speculators, to grow soy (to sell to China) and to make beef (to many parts of the world). There is strong evidence that all this started with the lawfare promoted in Brazil by USA government through the Car Wash movement and the same fascist powers that moved Brexit, Trump and now the protests at Hong Kong (You can see Steve Bannon's fingers everywhere). USA done this in 1964 with the military, and in 2016 through a legislative coup. Some people say that it is not impossible for Brazil to became the Puerto Rico of this century. What keeps me going is the application of Marx and Vygotsky in my classes and my understanding of the world, without it there would be only despair. Wagner On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 1:53 PM JULIE WADDINGTON wrote: > And which of the two have the media in our different countries chosen to > focus our attention on? > > Very big sigh, > > Julie > > > > > > ________________________________________ > De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] en > nom de Martin Packer [mpacker@cantab.net] > Enviat el: dijous, 22 / agost / 2019 16:32 > Per a: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Tema: [Xmca-l] Burning... > > Which is more important to save from the flames? Notre Dame, or the Amazon > forests? > > < > https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/europe/notre-dame-paris-lead-reconstruction.html > > > > > > sigh > > Martin > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190822/627d06a7/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Aug 22 11:33:37 2019 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:33:37 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> <1779C4A7-4A71-47CD-85F8-B4D879E3923F@cantab.net> Message-ID: And as the "yellow vests" can tell you a social fire burns in France as well - perhaps not as dire as in Brazil; but burn it does. Helen recently said something about the earth burning by 2040. May be sooner? -greg On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:00 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Amazon is burning, but also: > > There is a genocide of indigenous people. > There is a genocide of the poor (helicopters are dropping grenades on > favelas, but only favelas not controlled by the militias - because the > Bolsonaro family is very very close to the militias). > There is a total privatization of the Brazilian State. > There is the destruction of Brazilian science (probably I won't go to > ISCAR next year for I do not have money, nor the public university where I > study). > There is a total subservience to USA. > > Back to the forest, why it burns? For the profit of big real state > speculators, to grow soy (to sell to China) and to make beef (to many parts > of the world). > > There is strong evidence that all this started with the lawfare promoted > in Brazil by USA government through the Car Wash movement and the same > fascist powers that moved Brexit, Trump and now the protests at Hong Kong > (You can see Steve Bannon's fingers everywhere). USA done this in 1964 with > the military, and in 2016 through a legislative coup. > > Some people say that it is not impossible for Brazil to became the Puerto > Rico of this century. > > What keeps me going is the application of Marx and Vygotsky in my classes > and my understanding of the world, without it there would be only despair. > > Wagner > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 1:53 PM JULIE WADDINGTON > wrote: > >> And which of the two have the media in our different countries chosen to >> focus our attention on? >> >> Very big sigh, >> >> Julie >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] en >> nom de Martin Packer [mpacker@cantab.net] >> Enviat el: dijous, 22 / agost / 2019 16:32 >> Per a: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Tema: [Xmca-l] Burning... >> >> Which is more important to save from the flames? Notre Dame, or the >> Amazon forests? >> >> < >> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/europe/notre-dame-paris-lead-reconstruction.html >> > >> >> > > >> >> sigh >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190822/df89acf0/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Thu Aug 22 12:17:51 2019 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:17:51 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> <1779C4A7-4A71-47CD-85F8-B4D879E3923F@cantab.net> Message-ID: Yes, from what I?ve read, the fires in the Amazon are no accident. It speaks volumes that people see the value of saving a burned building, but not of saving the planet on which we depend. Or am I wrong: have billionaires been declaring their dedication to rebuild the Amazon? A colleague here in Colombia, Lina Paola Negrette, wrote this on Facebook today: La ridiculez del d?a: Facebook me pregunta qu? estoy pensando. A continuaci?n me bombardea con las im?genes de la selva en llamas, de los animales muertos y de hombres y mujeres, casi sin voz, que gritan con el fuego en los talones. Me recuerda la estupidez escondida en considerar que podemos mitigar el da?o causado comprando una botella de vidrio. Los ?nicos que saben cuidar la Amazon?a son los pueblos ancestrales y por eso mismo son los primeros en la fila del exterminio. Respuesta: estoy pensando que fracasamos como especie. El problema es el consumo, el problema es la distribuci?n inequitativa de la riqueza, el problema es el monocultivo, el problema es comer carne y criar vacas, cerdos, peces, pollos para ser sacrificados. El problema es la avaricia de los que arrasan las selvas, los bosques, las llanuras, las monta?as los r?os, los mares, las ci?nagas, los p?ramos, para hacerse cada d?a m?s ricos. El problema es desear un diamante y desestimar la sangre que ba?? otros dedos antes de que brille en uno de los nuestros. El problema es votar por quienes defienden a quienes nos matan de tantas formas horrorosas. El problema es la obsolescencia programada, la publicidad enga?osa y la aturdidora propaganda permanente. El problema es el corto plazo, la comodidad ego?sta, el desperdicio, la falta de solidaridad, la ingratitud. El problema es el bienestar basado en el consumo. El problema somos todas las personas que olvidamos, que abandonamos, que cerramos los ojos, que no escuchamos. El problema somos usted y yo, que nos resistimos a dejar que otras personas y otras especies sean. La peor ceguera es que no vemos cu?ntas especies (incluida la vergonzosa humanidad) est?n ahora mismo esclavizadas, en alguna otra parte del mundo, en el patio de al lado o en el propio cl?set, por el capricho de parecer ricos mientras unos cuantos se hacen verdaderamente millonarios a costa de nuestras vidas, de las vidas de todas nosotras en el mundo mayoritario (la minor?a son los ricos). La ?nica soluci?n es cambiar ya mismo el modelo econ?mico depredador en el que vivimos y que solo favorece a una infame minor?a. Dejemos de jugar con las reglas del consumo, paremos ya esta masacre contra todas las vidas -incluida la nuestra. Facebook ya sab?a, de antemano, lo que estoy pensando. La frase del d?a: "no es fuego, es capitalismo". "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) > On Aug 22, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > > Amazon is burning, but also: > > There is a genocide of indigenous people. > There is a genocide of the poor (helicopters are dropping grenades on favelas, but only favelas not controlled by the militias - because the Bolsonaro family is very very close to the militias). > There is a total privatization of the Brazilian State. > There is the destruction of Brazilian science (probably I won't go to ISCAR next year for I do not have money, nor the public university where I study). > There is a total subservience to USA. > > Back to the forest, why it burns? For the profit of big real state speculators, to grow soy (to sell to China) and to make beef (to many parts of the world). > > There is strong evidence that all this started with the lawfare promoted in Brazil by USA government through the Car Wash movement and the same fascist powers that moved Brexit, Trump and now the protests at Hong Kong (You can see Steve Bannon's fingers everywhere). USA done this in 1964 with the military, and in 2016 through a legislative coup. > > Some people say that it is not impossible for Brazil to became the Puerto Rico of this century. > > What keeps me going is the application of Marx and Vygotsky in my classes and my understanding of the world, without it there would be only despair. > > Wagner > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 1:53 PM JULIE WADDINGTON > wrote: > And which of the two have the media in our different countries chosen to focus our attention on? > > Very big sigh, > > Julie > > > > > > ________________________________________ > De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] en nom de Martin Packer [mpacker@cantab.net ] > Enviat el: dijous, 22 / agost / 2019 16:32 > Per a: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Tema: [Xmca-l] Burning... > > Which is more important to save from the flames? Notre Dame, or the Amazon forests? > > > > > > > > sigh > > Martin > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190822/ba584fbb/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Aug 22 15:38:23 2019 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 07:38:23 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> <1779C4A7-4A71-47CD-85F8-B4D879E3923F@cantab.net> Message-ID: Last night I had a dream. It's a recurring nightmare, vaguely connected to something that actually did happen to me once--I was in a rape centre somewhere, and I could hear voices of people being raped, without being able to tell if they were men or women, children or adults. But with every scream, a large red mark would appear on a whitewashed wall in front of me, and the marks were slowly descending towards me. As they reached the level of my head, I began to wonder if they somehow meant that I was next, or maybe that I would be murdered, or something out of some silly horror movie. But of course, because it is only my old familiar nightmare, when the marks reached the level of my nose and eyebrows, the door flies open, and I wake up--free and with a very full bladder ("O welche lust....") I must admit that when I first wake up from the dream, I feel what Vygotsky calls "incoherent coherence", that everything is connected to everything. But two things about this dream seem, nevertheless, actually relevant to the two threads on this list. First of all, Martin's question is based on the same kind of Levy-Bruhlesque "participation" as my dream--the fires of Notre Dame and the fires of Amazonia are mystically linked by some underground tunnel, either through the liberal conciousness (should you save the baby in the pram or the old woman on a crutch from the driverless Google car descending upon them?) or through the generalization of capitalism quite beyond any useful meaning ("no es fuego--es capitalismo!" seems almost like Bolsinaro's actual response to the fires--"Do you want me to blame Indians or Martians?"). Secondly, this dream, which is rather indicative of my mindset, at least when I am asleep, is really what Thomas Nagel meant when she asked "What is it like to be a bat?" What it is like to be a bat--that is, the mindset of the bat--is that everything is connected to echo-location, and that suggests, quite wrongly and even deceitfully, the way only our own mindset can ever deceive us, that everything is connected to everything and that therefore nothing is connected to me. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 Some e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:19 AM Martin Packer wrote: > Yes, from what I?ve read, the fires in the Amazon are no accident. > > It speaks volumes that people see the value of saving a burned building, > but not of saving the planet on which we depend. Or am I wrong: have > billionaires been declaring their dedication to rebuild the Amazon? > > A colleague here in Colombia, Lina Paola Negrette, wrote this on Facebook > today: > > La ridiculez del d?a: Facebook me pregunta qu? estoy pensando. A > continuaci?n me bombardea con las im?genes de la selva en llamas, de los > animales muertos y de hombres y mujeres, casi sin voz, que gritan con el > fuego en los talones. Me recuerda la estupidez escondida en considerar que > podemos mitigar el da?o causado comprando una botella de vidrio. Los ?nicos > que saben cuidar la Amazon?a son los pueblos ancestrales y por eso mismo > son los primeros en la fila del exterminio. > > Respuesta: estoy pensando que fracasamos como especie. > > El problema es el consumo, el problema es la distribuci?n inequitativa de > la riqueza, el problema es el monocultivo, el problema es comer carne y > criar vacas, cerdos, peces, pollos para ser sacrificados. El problema es la > avaricia de los que arrasan las selvas, los bosques, las llanuras, las > monta?as los r?os, los mares, las ci?nagas, los p?ramos, para hacerse cada > d?a m?s ricos. El problema es desear un diamante y desestimar la sangre que > ba?? otros dedos antes de que brille en uno de los nuestros. El problema es > votar por quienes defienden a quienes nos matan de tantas formas > horrorosas. El problema es la obsolescencia programada, la publicidad > enga?osa y la aturdidora propaganda permanente. El problema es el corto > plazo, la comodidad ego?sta, el desperdicio, la falta de solidaridad, la > ingratitud. El problema es el bienestar basado en el consumo. El problema > somos todas las personas que olvidamos, que abandonamos, que cerramos los > ojos, que no escuchamos. El problema somos usted y yo, que nos resistimos a > dejar que otras personas y otras especies sean. La peor ceguera es que no > vemos cu?ntas especies (incluida la vergonzosa humanidad) est?n ahora mismo > esclavizadas, en alguna otra parte del mundo, en el patio de al lado o en > el propio cl?set, por el capricho de parecer ricos mientras unos cuantos se > hacen verdaderamente millonarios a costa de nuestras vidas, de las vidas de > todas nosotras en el mundo mayoritario (la minor?a son los ricos). > > La ?nica soluci?n es cambiar ya mismo el modelo econ?mico depredador en el > que vivimos y que solo favorece a una infame minor?a. Dejemos de jugar con > las reglas del consumo, paremos ya esta masacre contra todas las vidas > -incluida la nuestra. > > Facebook ya sab?a, de antemano, lo que estoy pensando. > La frase del d?a: "no es fuego, es capitalismo". > > > > *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss > matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my > partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with > the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930)* > > > > On Aug 22, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > > Amazon is burning, but also: > > There is a genocide of indigenous people. > There is a genocide of the poor (helicopters are dropping grenades on > favelas, but only favelas not controlled by the militias - because the > Bolsonaro family is very very close to the militias). > There is a total privatization of the Brazilian State. > There is the destruction of Brazilian science (probably I won't go to > ISCAR next year for I do not have money, nor the public university where I > study). > There is a total subservience to USA. > > Back to the forest, why it burns? For the profit of big real state > speculators, to grow soy (to sell to China) and to make beef (to many parts > of the world). > > There is strong evidence that all this started with the lawfare promoted > in Brazil by USA government through the Car Wash movement and the same > fascist powers that moved Brexit, Trump and now the protests at Hong Kong > (You can see Steve Bannon's fingers everywhere). USA done this in 1964 with > the military, and in 2016 through a legislative coup. > > Some people say that it is not impossible for Brazil to became the Puerto > Rico of this century. > > What keeps me going is the application of Marx and Vygotsky in my classes > and my understanding of the world, without it there would be only despair. > > Wagner > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 1:53 PM JULIE WADDINGTON > wrote: > >> And which of the two have the media in our different countries chosen to >> focus our attention on? >> >> Very big sigh, >> >> Julie >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] en >> nom de Martin Packer [mpacker@cantab.net] >> Enviat el: dijous, 22 / agost / 2019 16:32 >> Per a: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Tema: [Xmca-l] Burning... >> >> Which is more important to save from the flames? Notre Dame, or the >> Amazon forests? >> >> < >> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/europe/notre-dame-paris-lead-reconstruction.html >> > >> >> > > >> >> sigh >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190823/3f6cfa65/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Thu Aug 22 16:23:35 2019 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 18:23:35 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <003801d555ba$1b1b4e30$5151ea90$@smu.ac.za> <1779C4A7-4A71-47CD-85F8-B4D879E3923F@cantab.net> Message-ID: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> It does all seem rather like a bad dream, doesn?t it! And to point out that two things are, or have been, burning is certainly a rather loose similarity. But my point was really the difference rather than the similarity; the difference that Julie pointed out. One event got extensive media coverage and an outpouring of sympathy and financial support. The other seems to be passing largely without notice, except to those directly involved. The two seem to be unconnected, or treated as such. My message was a pathetically small attempt to counter that; to say, stop and take a look at this! Don?t you think, David, that capitalism is playing a role in the destruction of the Amazon? Wagner, who is a lot closer, seems to think so. I am secretly hoping that Trump will purchase the Amazon basin, and that will be the salvation of us all. Martin > On Aug 22, 2019, at 5:38 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Last night I had a dream. It's a recurring nightmare, vaguely connected to something that actually did happen to me once--I was in a rape centre somewhere, and I could hear voices of people being raped, without being able to tell if they were men or women, children or adults. But with every scream, a large red mark would appear on a whitewashed wall in front of me, and the marks were slowly descending towards me. As they reached the level of my head, I began to wonder if they somehow meant that I was next, or maybe that I would be murdered, or something out of some silly horror movie. But of course, because it is only my old familiar nightmare, when the marks reached the level of my nose and eyebrows, the door flies open, and I wake up--free and with a very full bladder ("O welche lust....") > > I must admit that when I first wake up from the dream, I feel what Vygotsky calls "incoherent coherence", that everything is connected to everything. But two things about this dream seem, nevertheless, actually relevant to the two threads on this list. First of all, Martin's question is based on the same kind of Levy-Bruhlesque "participation" as my dream--the fires of Notre Dame and the fires of Amazonia are mystically linked by some underground tunnel, either through the liberal conciousness (should you save the baby in the pram or the old woman on a crutch from the driverless Google car descending upon them?) or through the generalization of capitalism quite beyond any useful meaning ("no es fuego--es capitalismo!" seems almost like Bolsinaro's actual response to the fires--"Do you want me to blame Indians or Martians?"). Secondly, this dream, which is rather indicative of my mindset, at least when I am asleep, is really what Thomas Nagel meant when she asked "What is it like to be a bat?" What it is like to be a bat--that is, the mindset of the bat--is that everything is connected to echo-location, and that suggests, quite wrongly and even deceitfully, the way only our own mindset can ever deceive us, that everything is connected to everything and that therefore nothing is connected to me. > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: > Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s > pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by > Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > Some e-prints available at: > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:19 AM Martin Packer > wrote: > Yes, from what I?ve read, the fires in the Amazon are no accident. > > It speaks volumes that people see the value of saving a burned building, but not of saving the planet on which we depend. Or am I wrong: have billionaires been declaring their dedication to rebuild the Amazon? > > A colleague here in Colombia, Lina Paola Negrette, wrote this on Facebook today: > > La ridiculez del d?a: Facebook me pregunta qu? estoy pensando. A continuaci?n me bombardea con las im?genes de la selva en llamas, de los animales muertos y de hombres y mujeres, casi sin voz, que gritan con el fuego en los talones. Me recuerda la estupidez escondida en considerar que podemos mitigar el da?o causado comprando una botella de vidrio. Los ?nicos que saben cuidar la Amazon?a son los pueblos ancestrales y por eso mismo son los primeros en la fila del exterminio. > Respuesta: estoy pensando que fracasamos como especie. > El problema es el consumo, el problema es la distribuci?n inequitativa de la riqueza, el problema es el monocultivo, el problema es comer carne y criar vacas, cerdos, peces, pollos para ser sacrificados. El problema es la avaricia de los que arrasan las selvas, los bosques, las llanuras, las monta?as los r?os, los mares, las ci?nagas, los p?ramos, para hacerse cada d?a m?s ricos. El problema es desear un diamante y desestimar la sangre que ba?? otros dedos antes de que brille en uno de los nuestros. El problema es votar por quienes defienden a quienes nos matan de tantas formas horrorosas. El problema es la obsolescencia programada, la publicidad enga?osa y la aturdidora propaganda permanente. El problema es el corto plazo, la comodidad ego?sta, el desperdicio, la falta de solidaridad, la ingratitud. El problema es el bienestar basado en el consumo. El problema somos todas las personas que olvidamos, que abandonamos, que cerramos los ojos, que no escuchamos. El problema somos usted y yo, que nos resistimos a dejar que otras personas y otras especies sean. La peor ceguera es que no vemos cu?ntas especies (incluida la vergonzosa humanidad) est?n ahora mismo esclavizadas, en alguna otra parte del mundo, en el patio de al lado o en el propio cl?set, por el capricho de parecer ricos mientras unos cuantos se hacen verdaderamente millonarios a costa de nuestras vidas, de las vidas de todas nosotras en el mundo mayoritario (la minor?a son los ricos). > La ?nica soluci?n es cambiar ya mismo el modelo econ?mico depredador en el que vivimos y que solo favorece a una infame minor?a. Dejemos de jugar con las reglas del consumo, paremos ya esta masacre contra todas las vidas -incluida la nuestra. > Facebook ya sab?a, de antemano, lo que estoy pensando. > La frase del d?a: "no es fuego, es capitalismo". > > > > "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) > > > >> On Aug 22, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: >> >> Amazon is burning, but also: >> >> There is a genocide of indigenous people. >> There is a genocide of the poor (helicopters are dropping grenades on favelas, but only favelas not controlled by the militias - because the Bolsonaro family is very very close to the militias). >> There is a total privatization of the Brazilian State. >> There is the destruction of Brazilian science (probably I won't go to ISCAR next year for I do not have money, nor the public university where I study). >> There is a total subservience to USA. >> >> Back to the forest, why it burns? For the profit of big real state speculators, to grow soy (to sell to China) and to make beef (to many parts of the world). >> >> There is strong evidence that all this started with the lawfare promoted in Brazil by USA government through the Car Wash movement and the same fascist powers that moved Brexit, Trump and now the protests at Hong Kong (You can see Steve Bannon's fingers everywhere). USA done this in 1964 with the military, and in 2016 through a legislative coup. >> >> Some people say that it is not impossible for Brazil to became the Puerto Rico of this century. >> >> What keeps me going is the application of Marx and Vygotsky in my classes and my understanding of the world, without it there would be only despair. >> >> Wagner >> >> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 1:53 PM JULIE WADDINGTON > wrote: >> And which of the two have the media in our different countries chosen to focus our attention on? >> >> Very big sigh, >> >> Julie >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] en nom de Martin Packer [mpacker@cantab.net ] >> Enviat el: dijous, 22 / agost / 2019 16:32 >> Per a: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Tema: [Xmca-l] Burning... >> >> Which is more important to save from the flames? Notre Dame, or the Amazon forests? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> sigh >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190822/1f45f820/attachment.html From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Thu Aug 22 16:42:22 2019 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (=?UTF-8?Q?=E3=82=A6=E3=82=A3=E3=83=AB=E3=82=AD=E3=83=B3?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E3=82=BD=E3=83=B3=E3=80=80=E3=83=B4=E3=82=A1?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E3=83=AC=E3=83=AA?=) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 08:42:22 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> Message-ID: <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Hi. Sorry, what follows is not my own work. I can't read Spanish well enough to get the import so I ran the text through Google. (It's gotten better. I guess.) Says Martin's colleague (in translation): "The ridiculousness of the day: Facebook asks me what I'm thinking. Then he bombards me with the images of the jungle in flames, of dead animals and of men and women, almost voiceless, shouting with fire on their heels. It reminds me of the hidden stupidity in considering that we can mitigate the damage caused by buying a glass bottle. The only ones who know how to take care of the Amazon are the ancestral peoples and that is why they are the first in the extermination line. Answer: I am thinking that we fail as a species. The problem is consumption, the problem is the unequal distribution of wealth, the problem is monoculture, the problem is eating meat and raising cows, pigs, fish, chickens to be slaughtered. The problem is the greed of those who sweep the forests, forests, plains, mountains, rivers, seas, marshes, moors, to become richer every day. The problem is to desire a diamond and dismiss the blood that bathed other fingers before it shines on one of ours. The problem is to vote for those who defend those who kill us in so many horrific ways. The problem is programmed obsolescence, deceptive advertising and stunning stupid propaganda. The problem is the short term, selfish comfort, waste, lack of solidarity, ingratitude. The problem is well-being based on consumption. The problem is all the people we forget, we abandon, we close our eyes, we don't listen. The problem is you and I, who resist letting other people and other species be. The worst blindness is that we do not see how many species (including shameful humanity) are now enslaved, in some other part of the world, in the next yard or in the closet itself, on the whim of looking rich while a few become truly millionaires at the expense of our lives, of the lives of all of us in the majority world (the minority are the rich). The only solution is to change the predatory economic model in which we live and that only favors an infamous minority. Let's stop playing with the rules of consumption, let's stop this massacre against all lives - including ours. Facebook already knew, in advance, what I am thinking. The phrase of the day: "it is not fire, it is capitalism". ------Original Message------ ????"Martin Packer" ???"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ??? ???[Xmca-l] Re: Burning... ???2019?08?23?(?) 08:23(+0900) It does all seem rather like a bad dream, doesn?t it! And to point out that two things are, or have been, burning is certainly a rather loose similarity. But my point was really the difference rather than the similarity; the difference that Julie pointed out. One event got extensive media coverage and an outpouring of sympathy and financial support. The other seems to be passing largely without notice, except to those directly involved. The two seem to be unconnected, or treated as such. My message was a pathetically small attempt to counter that; to say, stop and take a look at this! Don?t you think, David, that capitalism is playing a role in the destruction of the Amazon? Wagner, who is a lot closer, seems to think so. I am secretly hoping that Trump will purchase the Amazon basin, and that will be the salvation of us all. Martin On Aug 22, 2019, at 5:38 PM, David Kellogg wrote: Last night I had a dream. It's a recurring nightmare, vaguely connected to something that actually did happen to me once--I was in a rape centre somewhere, and I could hear voices of people being raped, without being able to tell if they were men or women, children or adults. But with every scream, a large red mark would appear on a whitewashed wall in front of me, and the marks were slowly descending towards me. As they reached the level of my head, I began to wonder if they somehow meant that I was next, or maybe that I would be murdered, or something out of some silly horror movie. But of course, because it is only my old familiar nightmare, when the marks reached the level of my nose and eyebrows, the door flies open, and I wake up--free and with a very full bladder ("O welche lust....") I must admit that when I first wake up from the dream, I feel what Vygotsky calls "incoherent coherence", that everything is connected to everything. But two things about this dream seem, nevertheless, actually relevant to the two threads on this list. First of all, Martin's question is based on the same kind of Levy-Bruhlesque "participation" as my dream--the fires of Notre Dame and the fires of Amazonia are mystically linked by some underground tunnel, either through the liberal conciousness (should you save the baby in the pram or the old woman on a crutch from the driverless Google car descending upon them?) or through the generalization of capitalism quite beyond any useful meaning ("no es fuego--es capitalismo!" seems almost like Bolsinaro's actual response to the fires--"Do you want me to blame Indians or Martians?"). Secondly, this dream, which is rather indicative of my mindset, at least when I am asleep, is really what Thomas Nagel meant when she asked "What is it like to be a bat?" What it is like to be a bat--that is, the mindset of the bat--is that everything is connected to echo-location, and that suggests, quite wrongly and even deceitfully, the way only our own mindset can ever deceive us, that everything is connected to everything and that therefore nothing is connected to me. David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 To link to this article:https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 Some e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:19 AM Martin Packer wrote: Yes, from what I?ve read, the fires in the Amazon are no accident. It speaks volumes that people see the value of saving a burned building, but not of saving the planet on which we depend. Or am I wrong: have billionaires been declaring their dedication to rebuild the Amazon? A colleague here in Colombia, Lina Paola Negrette, wrote this on Facebook today: La ridiculez del d?a: Facebook me pregunta qu? estoy pensando. A continuaci?n me bombardea con las im?genes de la selva en llamas, de los animales muertos y de hombres y mujeres, casi sin voz, que gritan con el fuego en los talones. Me recuerda la estupidez escondida en considerar que podemos mitigar el da?o causado comprando una botella de vidrio. Los ?nicos que saben cuidar la Amazon?a son los pueblos ancestrales y por eso mismo son los primeros en la fila del exterminio. Respuesta: estoy pensando que fracasamos como especie. El problema es el consumo, el problema es la distribuci?n inequitativa de la riqueza, el problema es el monocultivo, el problema es comer carne y criar vacas, cerdos, peces, pollos para ser sacrificados. El problema es la avaricia de los que arrasan las selvas, los bosques, las llanuras, las monta?as los r?os, los mares, las ci?nagas, los p?ramos, para hacerse cada d?a m?s ricos. El problema es desear un diamante y desestimar la sangre que ba?? otros dedos antes de que brille en uno de los nuestros. El problema es votar por quienes defienden a quienes nos matan de tantas formas horrorosas. El problema es la obsolescencia programada, la publicidad enga?osa y la aturdidora propaganda permanente. El problema es el corto plazo, la comodidad ego?sta, el desperdicio, la falta de solidaridad, la ingratitud. El problema es el bienestar basado en el consumo. El problema somos todas las personas que olvidamos, que abandonamos, que cerramos los ojos, que no escuchamos. El problema somos usted y yo, que nos resistimos a dejar que otras personas y otras especies sean. La peor ceguera es que no vemos cu?ntas especies (incluida la vergonzosa humanidad) est?n ahora mismo esclavizadas, en alguna otra parte del mundo, en el patio de al lado o en el propio cl?set, por el capricho de parecer ricos mientras unos cuantos se hacen verdaderamente millonarios a costa de nuestras vidas, de las vidas de todas nosotras en el mundo mayoritario (la minor?a son los ricos). La ?nica soluci?n es cambiar ya mismo el modelo econ?mico depredador en el que vivimos y que solo favorece a una infame minor?a. Dejemos de jugar con las reglas del consumo, paremos ya esta masacre contra todas las vidas -incluida la nuestra. Facebook ya sab?a, de antemano, lo que estoy pensando. La frase del d?a: "no es fuego, es capitalismo". "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Aug 22, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: Amazon is burning, but also: There is a genocide of indigenous people. There is a genocide of the poor (helicopters are dropping grenades on favelas, but only favelas not controlled by the militias - because the Bolsonaro family is very very close to the militias). There is a total privatization of the Brazilian State. There is the destruction of Brazilian science (probably I won't go to ISCAR next year for I do not have money, nor the public university where I study). There is a total subservience to USA. Back to the forest, why it burns? For the profit of big real state speculators, to grow soy (to sell to China) and to make beef (to many parts of the world). There is strong evidence that all this started with the lawfare promoted in Brazil by USA government through the Car Wash movement and the same fascist powers that moved Brexit, Trump and now the protests at Hong Kong (You can see Steve Bannon's fingers everywhere). USA done this in 1964 with the military, and in 2016 through a legislative coup. Some people say that it is not impossible for Brazil to became the Puerto Rico of this century. What keeps me going is the application of Marx and Vygotsky in my classes and my understanding of the world, without it there would be only despair. Wagner On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 1:53 PM JULIE WADDINGTON wrote:And which of the two have the media in our different countries chosen to focus our attention on? Very big sigh, Julie ________________________________________ De:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu[xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] en nom de Martin Packer [mpacker@cantab.net] Enviat el: dijous, 22 / agost / 2019 16:32 Per a: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Tema: [Xmca-l] Burning... Which is more important to save from the flames? Notre Dame, or the Amazon forests? sigh Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190823/b2c3ba9e/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Thu Aug 22 17:06:19 2019 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 19:06:19 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon dioxide the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site Windy. Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190822/adfed877/attachment.html From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Fri Aug 23 03:33:36 2019 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 07:33:36 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: A short video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc So yes, it is capitalism Wagner On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer wrote: > This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon dioxide the > fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site Windy. > > Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? > > Martin > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190823/a556e130/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Aug 23 14:14:14 2019 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 06:14:14 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: Wagner: You were, I remember, interested in gaming culture. But if I remember correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line in the wild, you see that it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers). You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to active participant. Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who started out (male) in the on-line gaming culture making videos to try to talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct appeal to the (male) viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think is different. a) ContraPoints manages to use many of the Alt Right's own arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed at mythical enemies. b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own Marxist agenda or her own actual persona--she simply presents it as part of a panoply of gamer identities. c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to ISCAR") nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill Gates!) d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That is, she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the point of the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is probably true). A transitional programme then demands proof--open the account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this struggle is not a game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of ContraPoint's work has a strong flavor of the person in the bath self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will never object that struggle is not a game! (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 Some e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > A short video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc > > So yes, it is capitalism > > Wagner > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer wrote: > >> This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon dioxide >> the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site Windy. >> >> Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190824/88953e85/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Fri Aug 23 15:46:49 2019 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 17:46:49 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> Hi David, I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion that capitalism, with its pernicious tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of the problems in the Amazon and many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, though, in suggesting that the solution might turn out to be more capitalism. It is, after all, the game that we play so well, and in fact the only game that we know how to play. So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who takes the first turn? Martin > On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Wagner: > > You were, I remember, interested in gaming culture. But if I remember correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line in the wild, you see that it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers). You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to active participant. > > Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who started out (male) in the on-line gaming culture making videos to try to talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM > > Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct appeal to the (male) viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think is different. > > a) ContraPoints manages to use many of the Alt Right's own arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed at mythical enemies. > > b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own Marxist agenda or her own actual persona--she simply presents it as part of a panoply of gamer identities. > > c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to ISCAR") nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill Gates!) > > d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That is, she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the point of the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is probably true). A transitional programme then demands proof--open the account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. > > Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this struggle is not a game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of ContraPoint's work has a strong flavor of the person in the bath self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will never object that struggle is not a game! > > (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: > Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s > pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by > Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > Some e-prints available at: > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > A short video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc > > So yes, it is capitalism > > Wagner > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer > wrote: > This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon dioxide the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site Windy. > > Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? > > Martin > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190823/26968b0c/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Fri Aug 23 18:17:05 2019 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 11:17:05 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> Message-ID: <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a capitalist world, and that there is a hellovalot that has to happen between now and a situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, we need to think about how to understand and change our situation ... Rather than the truism that the object of all government and economic activity in the world is capitalist accumulation, I think we should recognise the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, which agrees with Activity Theory -- government and economic activity can be conceived of as a number of independent, interconnected *activities* (projects) like business management, trade, wage determination, distribution, price determination, a finance system, as well as environmental protection,? taxation, legislative, judicial, political and policing systems - every one of which is culturally variable and is within the grasp of governments and an organisation people to challenge and change. The destruction of the amazon forests and their crucial role in maintenance of everyone's atmosphere and the world's biological and cultural resources is a real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't solve by starting with the largest possible generalisation. Units of analysis comrades. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: > Hi David, > > I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion > that capitalism, with its pernicious tendency to turn > every aspect of nature into ?raw? materials and ?natural" > resources, is the source of the problems in the Amazon and > many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, > though, in suggesting that the solution might turn out to > be more capitalism. It is, after all, the game that we > play so well, and in fact the only game that we know how > to play. > > So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who > takes the first turn? > > Martin > > > >> On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg >> > wrote: >> >> Wagner: >> >> You were, I remember, interested in?gaming culture. But >> if I remember correctly, you weren't just interested in >> gaming culture "in the wild"--when you look at gaming >> culture on line? in the wild, you see that it's often >> associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs >> (e.g. the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my >> brother, for example, has been doing a regular blog for >> Matrix games on the anniversaries of the civil war, and >> his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery >> gamers).? You were interested in gaming culture as a >> vehicle for teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a >> vehicle of conveying content, and as a way of mediating >> the role of the learner from passive recipient to active >> participant. >> >> Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual >> woman who started out (male) in the on-line?gaming >> culture?making videos to try to talk to Alt-right people >> about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize for the >> coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but >> you will see it is part of the message. (I also do not >> endorse the call to vote Democratic: Al Gore ended "An >> Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to elect >> democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no >> discernible effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised >> in this film.) >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM >> >> Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your >> video--the spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, >> there is a direct?appeal ?to the (male) viewer which >> doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think is >> different. >> >> a) ContraPoints manages to use many of?the Alt Right's >> own arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at >> one point, their own racism (when she argues that unless >> climate change is tackled, we will have to deal with >> hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even >> ends with the idea that all successful political >> struggles are essentially aimed at mythical enemies. >> >> b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise >> her own Marxist agenda or her own actual persona--she >> simply?presents it as part of a panoply of gamer identities. >> >> c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an >> airplane to ISCAR")?nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es >> capitalismo!")--she doesn't want to simply "meliorate" >> capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame capitalism >> for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that >> capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are >> helpless and largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, >> hence Martin's appeal to Bill Gates!) >> >> d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun >> intended). That is, she begins with simple demands which >> are in no way anti-capitalist--but which neveretheless >> compel attention even in children (that's the?point of >> the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she >> could also do the same with the demand for a living >> minimum wage, or protection for indigenous peoples, or >> simply putting out the fires). Because these demands are >> not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of >> capitalism to satisfy them needs to be explained. In real >> political struggles, this is often done by the >> capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we >> increase wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the >> case of Bolsinaro--try to put out the fires (Bolsinaro >> says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is probably >> true).?A transitional programme then demands proof--open >> the account books to prove that there is no money for >> minimal wages, no land for indigenous peoples, no >> resources for fighting firest. It is then capitalism >> itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and >> create its own, united, educated, and purposeful >> gravediggers. >> >> Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of >> transitional programme is that her humor is misplaced and >> that this?struggle is not a game. Sometimes the humor is >> beside the point--the suicide rate among transgender >> women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of >> ContraPoint's work?has a strong flavor of the person in >> the bath self-medicating and self-treating. But I know >> that you, of all people, will never object that struggle >> is not a game! >> >> (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: >> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without >> SELF: Vygotsky?s >> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s >> construalism in understanding narratives by >> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: >> 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> To link to this article: >> https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> >> Some e-prints available at: >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit >> > > wrote: >> >> A short video about this: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc >> >> So yes, it is capitalism >> >> Wagner >> >> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer >> > wrote: >> >> This is a?satellite image not of fire per se but >> of?the carbon dioxide the fire is releasing >> (redder = more CO2) from the weather site?Windy. >> >> Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email >> address? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190824/44a1209e/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sat Aug 24 14:02:28 2019 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 16:02:28 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> Message-ID: <726A31B3-7E01-434D-AF6D-4358EF224841@cantab.net> I?m not sure I understand the objection to generalization. For instance, some of the press are calling these fires ?wild fires.? If they were, that might indicate that the problem was caused by inadequate land management. But they are not; they are fires deliberately started by loggers in order to clear areas of the forest for farming, and by farmers to ?prepare? previously cleared land for cultivation. Farming is principally of soy and beef, both sold outside Brazil. Before cultivation the land is treated with insecticide to a depth of several meters. As a result soy cultivation requires fertilizer, obtained by sucking up fish and other sea life and grinding them into sludge which is then applied to the crops. Bolsinaro has now deployed troops to help fight the fires. But he has also stated today that his focus will continue to be on the sustainable development of the Amazon reason in order to create economic growth for Brazil. Like I said, capitalism. Sure it is a system, with interconnected constituents. But I would say that it is just as important to grasp the big picture as it is to understand any constituent. Bolsinaro is being a rational capitalist, within the scope of that system. However, what capitalists in general seem unable or unwilling to grasp is that there is an ever bigger system, where human economic and political activity is coupled with the flow of water, oxygen, carbon dioxide, life and habitat around the planet. It?s one thing to point out that capitalist accumulation creates inequities. It?s another thing entirely to point out that it is destroying the basis for its own existence. Any activity that does that is not merely unfair, it is insane. Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) > On Aug 23, 2019, at 8:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a capitalist world, and that there is a hellovalot that has to happen between now and a situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, we need to think about how to understand and change our situation ... > > Rather than the truism that the object of all government and economic activity in the world is capitalist accumulation, I think we should recognise the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, which agrees with Activity Theory -- government and economic activity can be conceived of as a number of independent, interconnected activities (projects) like business management, trade, wage determination, distribution, price determination, a finance system, as well as environmental protection, taxation, legislative, judicial, political and policing systems - every one of which is culturally variable and is within the grasp of governments and an organisation people to challenge and change. > > The destruction of the amazon forests and their crucial role in maintenance of everyone's atmosphere and the world's biological and cultural resources is a real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't solve by starting with the largest possible generalisation. > Units of analysis comrades. > > Andy > Andy Blunden > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion that capitalism, with its pernicious tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of the problems in the Amazon and many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, though, in suggesting that the solution might turn out to be more capitalism. It is, after all, the game that we play so well, and in fact the only game that we know how to play. >> >> So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who takes the first turn? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: >>> >>> Wagner: >>> >>> You were, I remember, interested in gaming culture. But if I remember correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line in the wild, you see that it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers). You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to active participant. >>> >>> Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who started out (male) in the on-line gaming culture making videos to try to talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM >>> >>> Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct appeal to the (male) viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think is different. >>> >>> a) ContraPoints manages to use many of the Alt Right's own arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed at mythical enemies. >>> >>> b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own Marxist agenda or her own actual persona--she simply presents it as part of a panoply of gamer identities. >>> >>> c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to ISCAR") nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill Gates!) >>> >>> d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That is, she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the point of the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is probably true). A transitional programme then demands proof--open the account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. >>> >>> Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this struggle is not a game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of ContraPoint's work has a strong flavor of the person in the bath self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will never object that struggle is not a game! >>> >>> (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: >>> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s >>> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by >>> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> Some e-prints available at: >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: >>> A short video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc >>> >>> So yes, it is capitalism >>> >>> Wagner >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer > wrote: >>> This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon dioxide the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site Windy. >>> >>> Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190824/e4ed424c/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Aug 24 14:18:04 2019 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 06:18:04 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> Message-ID: My dear Martin-- Something there is about the way you read--or maybe it's the way I write--it's very likely the way I write, with all its multiple embeddings and whatnot--one of us always manage to get things, as Vygotsky say, ass-backwards. So, on the one hand, I was not denying that capitalism turns nature into raw materials for prouction. That's not at all peculiar to capitalism; it exists in all societies without exception, and it's not even as pronounced in advanced capitalist societies as it was in some pre-modern societies (American slavery devastated the soil as well as the population that worked it). As a result we can expect (and you prove this when you rummage around, even rhetorically, for Bill Gates's e-mail address) to find many capitalists ostensibly and even actually on the side of nature: renewable resources are just good business. In Brazil, for example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness companies are far more aware of how dangerous the fires are for international trade, while the much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, enterprises are more tightly aligned with Bolsinaro and more inclined to pyromania. I think that dividing one's enemies is always just the other side of uniting fellow travelers, friends, and, as Andy says, comrades in arms. But on the other hand, I do not think that the solution is more capitalism, or a gentle transition to some gentler form of capitalism, or that capitalism is and always will be the only game "we" know how to play. I was trying to say that it works better when we raise transitional demands, demands which force capitalism itself to expose the links between basic, fundamental, democratic, not-obviously-anti-capitalist stuff like the right to breathe air with oxygen in it and teh struggle against capitalism itself. That is how whole classes can acquire a perezhivanie of the existential threat they really exist in, how they can seize conscious awareness of the existential threat of capitalism. Anything else is going to lead to what Vygotsky calls empty verbalism. I don't think that class perezhivanie or the graspture of conscious awareness is ever gentle, though: the reason I was using sexual transitioning as a metaphor was that it's not crisis-free at all, even if you take hormones "gradually" (one transgender woman described it as having to do adolescence twice). Finally, I think that the current crisis tells us is that capitalism is a game nobody really knows how to play: it's a game that is playing us as a species and even as a whole social situation of development. (And, on a personal level, I am supposed to teach a class called "Specialism and Start-ups" this semester, and I really don't have a clue how to start!) Leave it to Andy, with his heritage in Trotskyism and his preternatural erudition iin Marxism, to know exactly what I was getting at. It ws this: https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/tp-text.htm#mt David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 Some e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:19 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a > capitalist world, and that there is a hellovalot that has to happen between > now and a situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, we need to > think about how to understand and change our situation ... > > Rather than the truism that the object of all government and economic > activity in the world is capitalist accumulation, I think we should > recognise the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, which agrees > with Activity Theory -- government and economic activity can be conceived > of as a number of independent, interconnected *activities* (projects) > like business management, trade, wage determination, distribution, price > determination, a finance system, as well as environmental protection, > taxation, legislative, judicial, political and policing systems - every one > of which is culturally variable and is within the grasp of governments and > an organisation people to challenge and change. > > The destruction of the amazon forests and their crucial role in > maintenance of everyone's atmosphere and the world's biological and > cultural resources is a real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't > solve by starting with the largest possible generalisation. > > Units of analysis comrades. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: > > Hi David, > > I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion that capitalism, > with its pernicious tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? > materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of the problems in the > Amazon and many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, though, > in suggesting that the solution might turn out to be more capitalism. It > is, after all, the game that we play so well, and in fact the only game > that we know how to play. > > So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who takes the first > turn? > > Martin > > > > On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Wagner: > > You were, I remember, interested in gaming culture. But if I remember > correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the > wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line in the wild, you see that > it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. > the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, > has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the > civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers). > You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for > teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, > and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to > active participant. > > Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who > started out (male) in the on-line gaming culture making videos to try to > talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize > for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will > see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote > Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to > elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible > effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM > > Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the spokesperson > is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct appeal to the (male) > viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think is > different. > > a) ContraPoints manages to use many of the Alt Right's own > arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own > racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have > to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends > with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed > at mythical enemies. > > b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own Marxist > agenda or her own actual persona--she simply presents it as part of a > panoply of gamer identities. > > c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to > ISCAR") nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want > to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame > capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that > capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and > largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill > Gates!) > > d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That is, > she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but > which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the point of > the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the > same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for > indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands > are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy > them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done > by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase > wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put > out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is > probably true). A transitional programme then demands proof--open the > account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land > for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then > capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create > its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. > > Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional > programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this struggle is not a > game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among > transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of > ContraPoint's work has a strong flavor of the person in the bath > self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will > never object that struggle is not a game! > > (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: > Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s > pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in > understanding narratives by > Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > Some e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < > wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: > >> A short video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc >> >> So yes, it is capitalism >> >> Wagner >> >> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer wrote: >> >>> This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon dioxide >>> the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site Windy. >>> >>> Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/e518e360/attachment.html From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Sat Aug 24 16:57:21 2019 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 20:57:21 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> Message-ID: Just to make some things clear: " In Brazil, for example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness companies are far more aware of how dangerous the fires are for international trade, while the much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, enterprises are more tightly aligned with Bolsinaro and more inclined to pyromania." It is the opposite, 75% of the food consumed by Brazilians are produced by small farmers, most try to avoid chemicals as much as possible on their crops. A considerable part of those consists of people that literally fought and died for land, many with a left or even marxist background - The government treats some of them as "pro-lula terrorists". Many produce organic food and permaculture is growing. They are against the fires and the bad use of the land, because if the land dies, they die with it. On the other hand those that are in full support of Bolsonaro are the big farmers, some need airplanes to go from a place to another of just one farm. Why the burn of the forest? The soil at the Amazon region is very poor by itself, what sustains the forest is the forest itself. So after some years of soil and beef production the land is of not much use, so they move on and destroy more forest to grow stuff. Problem is: if the deforestation continues, the cycle of water will be broken and most of Amazon forest will be doomed and some parts of Brazil and nearby countries will turn into a desert. Most of land on Amazon is obtained by forging documents to claim land that is of the state, and since most politicians on the region are big farmers, they can get out with it. Also just this year Bolsonaro government told the farmers that they do not need to pay almost half a million dollars on fines on deforestation (and some reports point out that only 10% of the illegally deforested land is fined), i.e., basically they can do whatever they want. And as I said it is not only the land, native people is being killed by farmers and gold miners. So no, the Big capitalists do not care, and only started to "care" when Europe came out with the possibility of a ban. The small producers are not much affected by this, for most of them sell for the internal market in their vicinity (and really far from Amazon), for most of Brazilian population is located near the cost and the south, not the in the north. Wagner On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg wrote: > My dear Martin-- > > Something there is about the way you read--or maybe it's the way I > write--it's very likely the way I write, with all its multiple embeddings > and whatnot--one of us always manage to get things, as Vygotsky say, > ass-backwards. So, on the one hand, I was not denying that capitalism > turns nature into raw materials for prouction. That's not at all peculiar > to capitalism; it exists in all societies without exception, and it's not > even as pronounced in advanced capitalist societies as it was in some > pre-modern societies (American slavery devastated the soil as well as the > population that worked it). As a result we can expect (and you prove this > when you rummage around, even rhetorically, for Bill Gates's e-mail > address) to find many capitalists ostensibly and even actually on the side > of nature: renewable resources are just good business. In Brazil, for > example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness companies are far more > aware of how dangerous the fires are for international trade, while the > much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, enterprises are more tightly aligned > with Bolsinaro and more inclined to pyromania. I think that dividing one's > enemies is always just the other side of uniting fellow travelers, friends, > and, as Andy says, comrades in arms. > > But on the other hand, I do not think that the solution is more > capitalism, or a gentle transition to some gentler form of capitalism, or > that capitalism is and always will be the only game "we" know how to > play. I was trying to say that it works better when we raise transitional > demands, demands which force capitalism itself to expose the links between > basic, fundamental, democratic, not-obviously-anti-capitalist stuff like > the right to breathe air with oxygen in it and teh struggle against > capitalism itself. That is how whole classes can acquire a perezhivanie of > the existential threat they really exist in, how they can seize conscious > awareness of the existential threat of capitalism. Anything else is going > to lead to what Vygotsky calls empty verbalism. I don't think that class > perezhivanie or the graspture of conscious awareness is ever gentle, > though: the reason I was using sexual transitioning as a metaphor was that > it's not crisis-free at all, even if you take hormones "gradually" (one > transgender woman described it as having to do adolescence twice). Finally, > I think that the current crisis tells us is that capitalism is a game > nobody really knows how to play: it's a game that is playing us as a > species and even as a whole social situation of development. (And, on a > personal level, I am supposed to teach a class called "Specialism and > Start-ups" this semester, and I really don't have a clue how to start!) > > Leave it to Andy, with his heritage in Trotskyism and his preternatural > erudition iin Marxism, to know exactly what I was getting at. It ws this: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/tp-text.htm#mt > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: > Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s > pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in > understanding narratives by > Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > Some e-prints available at: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:19 AM Andy Blunden wrote: > >> I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a >> capitalist world, and that there is a hellovalot that has to happen between >> now and a situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, we need to >> think about how to understand and change our situation ... >> >> Rather than the truism that the object of all government and economic >> activity in the world is capitalist accumulation, I think we should >> recognise the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, which agrees >> with Activity Theory -- government and economic activity can be conceived >> of as a number of independent, interconnected *activities* (projects) >> like business management, trade, wage determination, distribution, price >> determination, a finance system, as well as environmental protection, >> taxation, legislative, judicial, political and policing systems - every one >> of which is culturally variable and is within the grasp of governments and >> an organisation people to challenge and change. >> >> The destruction of the amazon forests and their crucial role in >> maintenance of everyone's atmosphere and the world's biological and >> cultural resources is a real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't >> solve by starting with the largest possible generalisation. >> >> Units of analysis comrades. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >> On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> >> Hi David, >> >> I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion that capitalism, >> with its pernicious tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? >> materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of the problems in the >> Amazon and many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, though, >> in suggesting that the solution might turn out to be more capitalism. It >> is, after all, the game that we play so well, and in fact the only game >> that we know how to play. >> >> So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who takes the first >> turn? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> Wagner: >> >> You were, I remember, interested in gaming culture. But if I remember >> correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the >> wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line in the wild, you see that >> it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. >> the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, >> has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the >> civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers). >> You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for >> teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, >> and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to >> active participant. >> >> Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who >> started out (male) in the on-line gaming culture making videos to try to >> talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize >> for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will >> see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote >> Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to >> elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible >> effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM >> >> Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the >> spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct appeal to >> the (male) viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think >> is different. >> >> a) ContraPoints manages to use many of the Alt Right's own >> arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own >> racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have >> to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends >> with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed >> at mythical enemies. >> >> b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own Marxist >> agenda or her own actual persona--she simply presents it as part of a >> panoply of gamer identities. >> >> c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to >> ISCAR") nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want >> to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame >> capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that >> capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and >> largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill >> Gates!) >> >> d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That is, >> she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but >> which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the point of >> the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the >> same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for >> indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands >> are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy >> them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done >> by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase >> wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put >> out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is >> probably true). A transitional programme then demands proof--open the >> account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land >> for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then >> capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create >> its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. >> >> Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional >> programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this struggle is not a >> game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among >> transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of >> ContraPoint's work has a strong flavor of the person in the bath >> self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will >> never object that struggle is not a game! >> >> (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: >> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s >> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in >> understanding narratives by >> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: >> 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> >> Some e-prints available at: >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < >> wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> A short video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc >>> >>> So yes, it is capitalism >>> >>> Wagner >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon dioxide >>>> the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site Windy. >>>> >>>> Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190824/6d87b76d/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Aug 24 17:39:49 2019 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 18:39:49 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> Message-ID: Not that it will make much difference but perhaps now would be a good time to revisit Elinor Melville's study of early ecological imperialism in Mexico in her book *A Plague of Sheep*? Here is a review: https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=54 and a short blurb from the review: "Above all else, the reader is struck by the extent to which Spaniards ignored the obvious changes recorded in their own *relaciones* between 1548 and 1581. In the 1540's, Spanish observers recorded that this valley, which is to the north of Mexico City and includes Tula, was fit to grow wheat, with stands of oak and pine forest. Yet, by 1581, the *relaciones* record an arid region, home of mesquite, prickly pear cacti, and the maguey. In the interim, the overstocking and overgrazing of sheep, complemented by other factors such as deforestation to acquire mining beams and charcoal, had transformed irrigated Otomi' farmland into land fit only for wide-range grazing." Hard not to think that this is where things are headed, esp. considering Wagner's last post about the nature of the soil in the Amazon. -greg On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 5:59 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Just to make some things clear: > > " In Brazil, for example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness > companies are far more aware of how dangerous the fires are for > international trade, while the much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, > enterprises are more tightly aligned with Bolsinaro and more inclined to > pyromania." > > It is the opposite, 75% of the food consumed by Brazilians are produced by > small farmers, most try to avoid chemicals as much as possible on their > crops. A considerable part of those consists of people that literally > fought and died for land, many with a left or even marxist background - The > government treats some of them as "pro-lula terrorists". Many produce > organic food and permaculture is growing. They are against the fires and > the bad use of the land, because if the land dies, they die with it. On the > other hand those that are in full support of Bolsonaro are the big farmers, > some need airplanes to go from a place to another of just one farm. Why the > burn of the forest? The soil at the Amazon region is very poor by itself, > what sustains the forest is the forest itself. So after some years of soil > and beef production the land is of not much use, so they move on and > destroy more forest to grow stuff. Problem is: if the deforestation > continues, the cycle of water will be broken and most of Amazon forest will > be doomed and some parts of Brazil and nearby countries will turn into a > desert. Most of land on Amazon is obtained by forging documents to claim > land that is of the state, and since most politicians on the region are big > farmers, they can get out with it. Also just this year Bolsonaro government > told the farmers that they do not need to pay almost half a million dollars > on fines on deforestation (and some reports point out that only 10% of the > illegally deforested land is fined), i.e., basically they can do whatever > they want. And as I said it is not only the land, native people is being > killed by farmers and gold miners. > > So no, the Big capitalists do not care, and only started to "care" when > Europe came out with the possibility of a ban. The small producers are not > much affected by this, for most of them sell for the internal market in > their vicinity (and really far from Amazon), for most of Brazilian > population is located near the cost and the south, not the in the north. > > Wagner > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > >> My dear Martin-- >> >> Something there is about the way you read--or maybe it's the way I >> write--it's very likely the way I write, with all its multiple embeddings >> and whatnot--one of us always manage to get things, as Vygotsky say, >> ass-backwards. So, on the one hand, I was not denying that capitalism >> turns nature into raw materials for prouction. That's not at all peculiar >> to capitalism; it exists in all societies without exception, and it's not >> even as pronounced in advanced capitalist societies as it was in some >> pre-modern societies (American slavery devastated the soil as well as the >> population that worked it). As a result we can expect (and you prove this >> when you rummage around, even rhetorically, for Bill Gates's e-mail >> address) to find many capitalists ostensibly and even actually on the side >> of nature: renewable resources are just good business. In Brazil, for >> example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness companies are far more >> aware of how dangerous the fires are for international trade, while the >> much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, enterprises are more tightly aligned >> with Bolsinaro and more inclined to pyromania. I think that dividing one's >> enemies is always just the other side of uniting fellow travelers, friends, >> and, as Andy says, comrades in arms. >> >> But on the other hand, I do not think that the solution is more >> capitalism, or a gentle transition to some gentler form of capitalism, or >> that capitalism is and always will be the only game "we" know how to >> play. I was trying to say that it works better when we raise transitional >> demands, demands which force capitalism itself to expose the links between >> basic, fundamental, democratic, not-obviously-anti-capitalist stuff like >> the right to breathe air with oxygen in it and teh struggle against >> capitalism itself. That is how whole classes can acquire a perezhivanie of >> the existential threat they really exist in, how they can seize conscious >> awareness of the existential threat of capitalism. Anything else is going >> to lead to what Vygotsky calls empty verbalism. I don't think that class >> perezhivanie or the graspture of conscious awareness is ever gentle, >> though: the reason I was using sexual transitioning as a metaphor was that >> it's not crisis-free at all, even if you take hormones "gradually" (one >> transgender woman described it as having to do adolescence twice). Finally, >> I think that the current crisis tells us is that capitalism is a game >> nobody really knows how to play: it's a game that is playing us as a >> species and even as a whole social situation of development. (And, on a >> personal level, I am supposed to teach a class called "Specialism and >> Start-ups" this semester, and I really don't have a clue how to start!) >> >> Leave it to Andy, with his heritage in Trotskyism and his preternatural >> erudition iin Marxism, to know exactly what I was getting at. It ws this: >> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/tp-text.htm#mt >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: >> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s >> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in >> understanding narratives by >> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: >> 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> >> Some e-prints available at: >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:19 AM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a >>> capitalist world, and that there is a hellovalot that has to happen between >>> now and a situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, we need to >>> think about how to understand and change our situation ... >>> >>> Rather than the truism that the object of all government and economic >>> activity in the world is capitalist accumulation, I think we should >>> recognise the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, which agrees >>> with Activity Theory -- government and economic activity can be conceived >>> of as a number of independent, interconnected *activities* (projects) >>> like business management, trade, wage determination, distribution, price >>> determination, a finance system, as well as environmental protection, >>> taxation, legislative, judicial, political and policing systems - every one >>> of which is culturally variable and is within the grasp of governments and >>> an organisation people to challenge and change. >>> >>> The destruction of the amazon forests and their crucial role in >>> maintenance of everyone's atmosphere and the world's biological and >>> cultural resources is a real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't >>> solve by starting with the largest possible generalisation. >>> >>> Units of analysis comrades. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >>> On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>> >>> Hi David, >>> >>> I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion that capitalism, >>> with its pernicious tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? >>> materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of the problems in the >>> Amazon and many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, though, >>> in suggesting that the solution might turn out to be more capitalism. It >>> is, after all, the game that we play so well, and in fact the only game >>> that we know how to play. >>> >>> So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who takes the >>> first turn? >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Wagner: >>> >>> You were, I remember, interested in gaming culture. But if I remember >>> correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the >>> wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line in the wild, you see that >>> it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. >>> the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, >>> has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the >>> civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers). >>> You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for >>> teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, >>> and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to >>> active participant. >>> >>> Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who >>> started out (male) in the on-line gaming culture making videos to try to >>> talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize >>> for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will >>> see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote >>> Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to >>> elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible >>> effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM >>> >>> Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the >>> spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct appeal to >>> the (male) viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think >>> is different. >>> >>> a) ContraPoints manages to use many of the Alt Right's own >>> arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own >>> racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have >>> to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends >>> with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed >>> at mythical enemies. >>> >>> b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own Marxist >>> agenda or her own actual persona--she simply presents it as part of a >>> panoply of gamer identities. >>> >>> c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to >>> ISCAR") nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want >>> to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame >>> capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that >>> capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and >>> largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill >>> Gates!) >>> >>> d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That >>> is, she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but >>> which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the point of >>> the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the >>> same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for >>> indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands >>> are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy >>> them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done >>> by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase >>> wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put >>> out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is >>> probably true). A transitional programme then demands proof--open the >>> account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land >>> for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then >>> capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create >>> its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. >>> >>> Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional >>> programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this struggle is not a >>> game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among >>> transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of >>> ContraPoint's work has a strong flavor of the person in the bath >>> self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will >>> never object that struggle is not a game! >>> >>> (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: >>> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s >>> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in >>> understanding narratives by >>> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: >>> 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> Some e-prints available at: >>> >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < >>> wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> A short video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc >>>> >>>> So yes, it is capitalism >>>> >>>> Wagner >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon dioxide >>>>> the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site Windy. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190824/f2e91b0f/attachment.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sat Aug 24 17:48:46 2019 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 19:48:46 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> Message-ID: <6F5B4FDC-BAAF-4471-A95F-76EC6D6C834F@cantab.net> Wagner, I am seeing and hearing reports of protests in the cities of Brazil, and that the military has been deployed to assist in extinguishing the fires. Does that sound correct to you? And if so, is there opposition - except from Bolsonaro himself!? Here in Colombia there is hope that the international attention to this issue can enable people to pressure the government to be less hypocritical in its treatment of the portion of the Amazon that lies in this country. It continues to be the region where the most deforestation occurs, despite government policies ostensibly opposing this. Martin > On Aug 24, 2019, at 6:57 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > > Just to make some things clear: > > " In Brazil, for example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness companies are far more aware of how dangerous the fires are for international trade, while the much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, enterprises are more tightly aligned with Bolsinaro and more inclined to pyromania." > > It is the opposite, 75% of the food consumed by Brazilians are produced by small farmers, most try to avoid chemicals as much as possible on their crops. A considerable part of those consists of people that literally fought and died for land, many with a left or even marxist background - The government treats some of them as "pro-lula terrorists". Many produce organic food and permaculture is growing. They are against the fires and the bad use of the land, because if the land dies, they die with it. On the other hand those that are in full support of Bolsonaro are the big farmers, some need airplanes to go from a place to another of just one farm. Why the burn of the forest? The soil at the Amazon region is very poor by itself, what sustains the forest is the forest itself. So after some years of soil and beef production the land is of not much use, so they move on and destroy more forest to grow stuff. Problem is: if the deforestation continues, the cycle of water will be broken and most of Amazon forest will be doomed and some parts of Brazil and nearby countries will turn into a desert. Most of land on Amazon is obtained by forging documents to claim land that is of the state, and since most politicians on the region are big farmers, they can get out with it. Also just this year Bolsonaro government told the farmers that they do not need to pay almost half a million dollars on fines on deforestation (and some reports point out that only 10% of the illegally deforested land is fined), i.e., basically they can do whatever they want. And as I said it is not only the land, native people is being killed by farmers and gold miners. > > So no, the Big capitalists do not care, and only started to "care" when Europe came out with the possibility of a ban. The small producers are not much affected by this, for most of them sell for the internal market in their vicinity (and really far from Amazon), for most of Brazilian population is located near the cost and the south, not the in the north. > > Wagner > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > My dear Martin-- > > Something there is about the way you read--or maybe it's the way I write--it's very likely the way I write, with all its multiple embeddings and whatnot--one of us always manage to get things, as Vygotsky say, ass-backwards. So, on the one hand, I was not denying that capitalism turns nature into raw materials for prouction. That's not at all peculiar to capitalism; it exists in all societies without exception, and it's not even as pronounced in advanced capitalist societies as it was in some pre-modern societies (American slavery devastated the soil as well as the population that worked it). As a result we can expect (and you prove this when you rummage around, even rhetorically, for Bill Gates's e-mail address) to find many capitalists ostensibly and even actually on the side of nature: renewable resources are just good business. In Brazil, for example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness companies are far more aware of how dangerous the fires are for international trade, while the much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, enterprises are more tightly aligned with Bolsinaro and more inclined to pyromania. I think that dividing one's enemies is always just the other side of uniting fellow travelers, friends, and, as Andy says, comrades in arms. > > But on the other hand, I do not think that the solution is more capitalism, or a gentle transition to some gentler form of capitalism, or that capitalism is and always will be the only game "we" know how to play. I was trying to say that it works better when we raise transitional demands, demands which force capitalism itself to expose the links between basic, fundamental, democratic, not-obviously-anti-capitalist stuff like the right to breathe air with oxygen in it and teh struggle against capitalism itself. That is how whole classes can acquire a perezhivanie of the existential threat they really exist in, how they can seize conscious awareness of the existential threat of capitalism. Anything else is going to lead to what Vygotsky calls empty verbalism. I don't think that class perezhivanie or the graspture of conscious awareness is ever gentle, though: the reason I was using sexual transitioning as a metaphor was that it's not crisis-free at all, even if you take hormones "gradually" (one transgender woman described it as having to do adolescence twice). Finally, I think that the current crisis tells us is that capitalism is a game nobody really knows how to play: it's a game that is playing us as a species and even as a whole social situation of development. (And, on a personal level, I am supposed to teach a class called "Specialism and Start-ups" this semester, and I really don't have a clue how to start!) > > Leave it to Andy, with his heritage in Trotskyism and his preternatural erudition iin Marxism, to know exactly what I was getting at. It ws this: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/tp-text.htm#mt > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: > Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s > pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by > Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > Some e-prints available at: > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:19 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: > I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a capitalist world, and that there is a hellovalot that has to happen between now and a situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, we need to think about how to understand and change our situation ... > > Rather than the truism that the object of all government and economic activity in the world is capitalist accumulation, I think we should recognise the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, which agrees with Activity Theory -- government and economic activity can be conceived of as a number of independent, interconnected activities (projects) like business management, trade, wage determination, distribution, price determination, a finance system, as well as environmental protection, taxation, legislative, judicial, political and policing systems - every one of which is culturally variable and is within the grasp of governments and an organisation people to challenge and change. > > The destruction of the amazon forests and their crucial role in maintenance of everyone's atmosphere and the world's biological and cultural resources is a real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't solve by starting with the largest possible generalisation. > Units of analysis comrades. > > Andy > Andy Blunden > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion that capitalism, with its pernicious tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of the problems in the Amazon and many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, though, in suggesting that the solution might turn out to be more capitalism. It is, after all, the game that we play so well, and in fact the only game that we know how to play. >> >> So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who takes the first turn? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: >>> >>> Wagner: >>> >>> You were, I remember, interested in gaming culture. But if I remember correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line in the wild, you see that it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers). You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to active participant. >>> >>> Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who started out (male) in the on-line gaming culture making videos to try to talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM >>> >>> Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct appeal to the (male) viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think is different. >>> >>> a) ContraPoints manages to use many of the Alt Right's own arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed at mythical enemies. >>> >>> b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own Marxist agenda or her own actual persona--she simply presents it as part of a panoply of gamer identities. >>> >>> c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to ISCAR") nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill Gates!) >>> >>> d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That is, she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the point of the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is probably true). A transitional programme then demands proof--open the account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. >>> >>> Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this struggle is not a game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of ContraPoint's work has a strong flavor of the person in the bath self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will never object that struggle is not a game! >>> >>> (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: >>> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s >>> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by >>> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> Some e-prints available at: >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: >>> A short video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc >>> >>> So yes, it is capitalism >>> >>> Wagner >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer > wrote: >>> This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon dioxide the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site Windy. >>> >>> Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190824/b5af1b18/attachment-0001.html From mpacker@cantab.net Sat Aug 24 18:00:30 2019 From: mpacker@cantab.net (Martin Packer) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 20:00:30 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> Message-ID: <243E2CF4-0A60-4F10-A17F-8AD4EAD237CC@cantab.net> Hi Greg, I think Wagner?s point was the rain forest sustains itself just fine without creating the kind of soil that would be useful to farmers. I found this online: The paradox of rainforest soils Tropical soils are notoriously thin and poor in nutrients. In some parts of the Amazon River Basin , white, sandy soils are found, which have evolved through erosion over hundreds of millions of years. And yet, although these soils have lost their mineral content and fertility, rich rainforests grow on them. In rainforests, some of the highest trees on the planet shoot to the sky. Dead plants and animals quickly decompose and their organic matter is utilized by other organisms. Martin > On Aug 24, 2019, at 7:39 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Not that it will make much difference but perhaps now would be a good time to revisit Elinor Melville's study of early ecological imperialism in Mexico in her book A Plague of Sheep? > Here is a review: > https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=54 > > and a short blurb from the review: > "Above all else, the reader is struck by the extent to which Spaniards ignored the obvious changes recorded in their own relaciones between 1548 and 1581. In the 1540's, Spanish observers recorded that this valley, which is to the north of Mexico City and includes Tula, was fit to grow wheat, with stands of oak and pine forest. Yet, by 1581, the relaciones record an arid region, home of mesquite, prickly pear cacti, and the maguey. In the interim, the overstocking and overgrazing of sheep, complemented by other factors such as deforestation to acquire mining beams and charcoal, had transformed irrigated Otomi' farmland into land fit only for wide-range grazing." > > Hard not to think that this is where things are headed, esp. considering Wagner's last post about the nature of the soil in the Amazon. > > -greg > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 5:59 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > Just to make some things clear: > > " In Brazil, for example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness companies are far more aware of how dangerous the fires are for international trade, while the much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, enterprises are more tightly aligned with Bolsinaro and more inclined to pyromania." > > It is the opposite, 75% of the food consumed by Brazilians are produced by small farmers, most try to avoid chemicals as much as possible on their crops. A considerable part of those consists of people that literally fought and died for land, many with a left or even marxist background - The government treats some of them as "pro-lula terrorists". Many produce organic food and permaculture is growing. They are against the fires and the bad use of the land, because if the land dies, they die with it. On the other hand those that are in full support of Bolsonaro are the big farmers, some need airplanes to go from a place to another of just one farm. Why the burn of the forest? The soil at the Amazon region is very poor by itself, what sustains the forest is the forest itself. So after some years of soil and beef production the land is of not much use, so they move on and destroy more forest to grow stuff. Problem is: if the deforestation continues, the cycle of water will be broken and most of Amazon forest will be doomed and some parts of Brazil and nearby countries will turn into a desert. Most of land on Amazon is obtained by forging documents to claim land that is of the state, and since most politicians on the region are big farmers, they can get out with it. Also just this year Bolsonaro government told the farmers that they do not need to pay almost half a million dollars on fines on deforestation (and some reports point out that only 10% of the illegally deforested land is fined), i.e., basically they can do whatever they want. And as I said it is not only the land, native people is being killed by farmers and gold miners. > > So no, the Big capitalists do not care, and only started to "care" when Europe came out with the possibility of a ban. The small producers are not much affected by this, for most of them sell for the internal market in their vicinity (and really far from Amazon), for most of Brazilian population is located near the cost and the south, not the in the north. > > Wagner > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > My dear Martin-- > > Something there is about the way you read--or maybe it's the way I write--it's very likely the way I write, with all its multiple embeddings and whatnot--one of us always manage to get things, as Vygotsky say, ass-backwards. So, on the one hand, I was not denying that capitalism turns nature into raw materials for prouction. That's not at all peculiar to capitalism; it exists in all societies without exception, and it's not even as pronounced in advanced capitalist societies as it was in some pre-modern societies (American slavery devastated the soil as well as the population that worked it). As a result we can expect (and you prove this when you rummage around, even rhetorically, for Bill Gates's e-mail address) to find many capitalists ostensibly and even actually on the side of nature: renewable resources are just good business. In Brazil, for example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness companies are far more aware of how dangerous the fires are for international trade, while the much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, enterprises are more tightly aligned with Bolsinaro and more inclined to pyromania. I think that dividing one's enemies is always just the other side of uniting fellow travelers, friends, and, as Andy says, comrades in arms. > > But on the other hand, I do not think that the solution is more capitalism, or a gentle transition to some gentler form of capitalism, or that capitalism is and always will be the only game "we" know how to play. I was trying to say that it works better when we raise transitional demands, demands which force capitalism itself to expose the links between basic, fundamental, democratic, not-obviously-anti-capitalist stuff like the right to breathe air with oxygen in it and teh struggle against capitalism itself. That is how whole classes can acquire a perezhivanie of the existential threat they really exist in, how they can seize conscious awareness of the existential threat of capitalism. Anything else is going to lead to what Vygotsky calls empty verbalism. I don't think that class perezhivanie or the graspture of conscious awareness is ever gentle, though: the reason I was using sexual transitioning as a metaphor was that it's not crisis-free at all, even if you take hormones "gradually" (one transgender woman described it as having to do adolescence twice). Finally, I think that the current crisis tells us is that capitalism is a game nobody really knows how to play: it's a game that is playing us as a species and even as a whole social situation of development. (And, on a personal level, I am supposed to teach a class called "Specialism and Start-ups" this semester, and I really don't have a clue how to start!) > > Leave it to Andy, with his heritage in Trotskyism and his preternatural erudition iin Marxism, to know exactly what I was getting at. It ws this: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/tp-text.htm#mt > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: > Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s > pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by > Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > Some e-prints available at: > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:19 AM Andy Blunden > wrote: > I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a capitalist world, and that there is a hellovalot that has to happen between now and a situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, we need to think about how to understand and change our situation ... > > Rather than the truism that the object of all government and economic activity in the world is capitalist accumulation, I think we should recognise the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, which agrees with Activity Theory -- government and economic activity can be conceived of as a number of independent, interconnected activities (projects) like business management, trade, wage determination, distribution, price determination, a finance system, as well as environmental protection, taxation, legislative, judicial, political and policing systems - every one of which is culturally variable and is within the grasp of governments and an organisation people to challenge and change. > > The destruction of the amazon forests and their crucial role in maintenance of everyone's atmosphere and the world's biological and cultural resources is a real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't solve by starting with the largest possible generalisation. > Units of analysis comrades. > > Andy > Andy Blunden > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion that capitalism, with its pernicious tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of the problems in the Amazon and many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, though, in suggesting that the solution might turn out to be more capitalism. It is, after all, the game that we play so well, and in fact the only game that we know how to play. >> >> So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who takes the first turn? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: >>> >>> Wagner: >>> >>> You were, I remember, interested in gaming culture. But if I remember correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line in the wild, you see that it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers). You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to active participant. >>> >>> Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who started out (male) in the on-line gaming culture making videos to try to talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM >>> >>> Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct appeal to the (male) viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think is different. >>> >>> a) ContraPoints manages to use many of the Alt Right's own arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed at mythical enemies. >>> >>> b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own Marxist agenda or her own actual persona--she simply presents it as part of a panoply of gamer identities. >>> >>> c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to ISCAR") nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill Gates!) >>> >>> d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That is, she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the point of the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is probably true). A transitional programme then demands proof--open the account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. >>> >>> Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this struggle is not a game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of ContraPoint's work has a strong flavor of the person in the bath self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will never object that struggle is not a game! >>> >>> (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: >>> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s >>> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by >>> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> Some e-prints available at: >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: >>> A short video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc >>> >>> So yes, it is capitalism >>> >>> Wagner >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer > wrote: >>> This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon dioxide the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site Windy. >>> >>> Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190824/661ece27/attachment.html From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Sat Aug 24 18:47:23 2019 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 22:47:23 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: <6F5B4FDC-BAAF-4471-A95F-76EC6D6C834F@cantab.net> References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> <6F5B4FDC-BAAF-4471-A95F-76EC6D6C834F@cantab.net> Message-ID: Unfortunately many pro-bolsonaro, even in my family in law, believe that all this is a hoax fabricated by the "Corrupted workers party and Lula" and that the EU is promoting this hoax to stop Brazil from developing. They say the same about "The Intercept Brazil" releases about ex-judge now minister Moro, the man behind the fall of Lula and the election of Bolsonaro. But yes there are protests and they are growing. And the same sounds of "pans" were heard during his last TV speech as right before Dilma's impeachment. Wagner On Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 21:51 Martin Packer wrote: > Wagner, I am seeing and hearing reports of protests in the cities of > Brazil, and that the military has been deployed to assist in extinguishing > the fires. Does that sound correct to you? And if so, is there opposition - > except from Bolsonaro himself!? > > Here in Colombia there is hope that the international attention to this > issue can enable people to pressure the government to be less hypocritical > in its treatment of the portion of the Amazon that lies in this country. It > continues to be the region where the most deforestation occurs, despite > government policies ostensibly opposing this. > > Martin > > > On Aug 24, 2019, at 6:57 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > > Just to make some things clear: > > " In Brazil, for example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness > companies are far more aware of how dangerous the fires are for > international trade, while the much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, > enterprises are more tightly aligned with Bolsinaro and more inclined to > pyromania." > > It is the opposite, 75% of the food consumed by Brazilians are produced by > small farmers, most try to avoid chemicals as much as possible on their > crops. A considerable part of those consists of people that literally > fought and died for land, many with a left or even marxist background - The > government treats some of them as "pro-lula terrorists". Many produce > organic food and permaculture is growing. They are against the fires and > the bad use of the land, because if the land dies, they die with it. On the > other hand those that are in full support of Bolsonaro are the big farmers, > some need airplanes to go from a place to another of just one farm. Why the > burn of the forest? The soil at the Amazon region is very poor by itself, > what sustains the forest is the forest itself. So after some years of soil > and beef production the land is of not much use, so they move on and > destroy more forest to grow stuff. Problem is: if the deforestation > continues, the cycle of water will be broken and most of Amazon forest will > be doomed and some parts of Brazil and nearby countries will turn into a > desert. Most of land on Amazon is obtained by forging documents to claim > land that is of the state, and since most politicians on the region are big > farmers, they can get out with it. Also just this year Bolsonaro government > told the farmers that they do not need to pay almost half a million dollars > on fines on deforestation (and some reports point out that only 10% of the > illegally deforested land is fined), i.e., basically they can do whatever > they want. And as I said it is not only the land, native people is being > killed by farmers and gold miners. > > So no, the Big capitalists do not care, and only started to "care" when > Europe came out with the possibility of a ban. The small producers are not > much affected by this, for most of them sell for the internal market in > their vicinity (and really far from Amazon), for most of Brazilian > population is located near the cost and the south, not the in the north. > > Wagner > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg > wrote: > >> My dear Martin-- >> >> Something there is about the way you read--or maybe it's the way I >> write--it's very likely the way I write, with all its multiple embeddings >> and whatnot--one of us always manage to get things, as Vygotsky say, >> ass-backwards. So, on the one hand, I was not denying that capitalism >> turns nature into raw materials for prouction. That's not at all peculiar >> to capitalism; it exists in all societies without exception, and it's not >> even as pronounced in advanced capitalist societies as it was in some >> pre-modern societies (American slavery devastated the soil as well as the >> population that worked it). As a result we can expect (and you prove this >> when you rummage around, even rhetorically, for Bill Gates's e-mail >> address) to find many capitalists ostensibly and even actually on the side >> of nature: renewable resources are just good business. In Brazil, for >> example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness companies are far more >> aware of how dangerous the fires are for international trade, while the >> much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, enterprises are more tightly aligned >> with Bolsinaro and more inclined to pyromania. I think that dividing one's >> enemies is always just the other side of uniting fellow travelers, friends, >> and, as Andy says, comrades in arms. >> >> But on the other hand, I do not think that the solution is more >> capitalism, or a gentle transition to some gentler form of capitalism, or >> that capitalism is and always will be the only game "we" know how to >> play. I was trying to say that it works better when we raise transitional >> demands, demands which force capitalism itself to expose the links between >> basic, fundamental, democratic, not-obviously-anti-capitalist stuff like >> the right to breathe air with oxygen in it and teh struggle against >> capitalism itself. That is how whole classes can acquire a perezhivanie of >> the existential threat they really exist in, how they can seize conscious >> awareness of the existential threat of capitalism. Anything else is going >> to lead to what Vygotsky calls empty verbalism. I don't think that class >> perezhivanie or the graspture of conscious awareness is ever gentle, >> though: the reason I was using sexual transitioning as a metaphor was that >> it's not crisis-free at all, even if you take hormones "gradually" (one >> transgender woman described it as having to do adolescence twice). Finally, >> I think that the current crisis tells us is that capitalism is a game >> nobody really knows how to play: it's a game that is playing us as a >> species and even as a whole social situation of development. (And, on a >> personal level, I am supposed to teach a class called "Specialism and >> Start-ups" this semester, and I really don't have a clue how to start!) >> >> Leave it to Andy, with his heritage in Trotskyism and his preternatural >> erudition iin Marxism, to know exactly what I was getting at. It ws this: >> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/tp-text.htm#mt >> >> >> David Kellogg >> Sangmyung University >> >> New Article: >> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s >> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in >> understanding narratives by >> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: >> 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> >> Some e-prints available at: >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:19 AM Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a >>> capitalist world, and that there is a hellovalot that has to happen between >>> now and a situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, we need to >>> think about how to understand and change our situation ... >>> >>> Rather than the truism that the object of all government and economic >>> activity in the world is capitalist accumulation, I think we should >>> recognise the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, which agrees >>> with Activity Theory -- government and economic activity can be conceived >>> of as a number of independent, interconnected *activities* (projects) >>> like business management, trade, wage determination, distribution, price >>> determination, a finance system, as well as environmental protection, >>> taxation, legislative, judicial, political and policing systems - every one >>> of which is culturally variable and is within the grasp of governments and >>> an organisation people to challenge and change. >>> >>> The destruction of the amazon forests and their crucial role in >>> maintenance of everyone's atmosphere and the world's biological and >>> cultural resources is a real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't >>> solve by starting with the largest possible generalisation. >>> >>> Units of analysis comrades. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >>> On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>> >>> Hi David, >>> >>> I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion that capitalism, >>> with its pernicious tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? >>> materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of the problems in the >>> Amazon and many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, though, >>> in suggesting that the solution might turn out to be more capitalism. It >>> is, after all, the game that we play so well, and in fact the only game >>> that we know how to play. >>> >>> So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who takes the >>> first turn? >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>> Wagner: >>> >>> You were, I remember, interested in gaming culture. But if I remember >>> correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the >>> wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line in the wild, you see that >>> it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. >>> the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, >>> has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the >>> civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers). >>> You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for >>> teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, >>> and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to >>> active participant. >>> >>> Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who >>> started out (male) in the on-line gaming culture making videos to try to >>> talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize >>> for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will >>> see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote >>> Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to >>> elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible >>> effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM >>> >>> Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the >>> spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct appeal to >>> the (male) viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think >>> is different. >>> >>> a) ContraPoints manages to use many of the Alt Right's own >>> arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own >>> racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have >>> to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends >>> with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed >>> at mythical enemies. >>> >>> b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own Marxist >>> agenda or her own actual persona--she simply presents it as part of a >>> panoply of gamer identities. >>> >>> c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to >>> ISCAR") nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want >>> to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame >>> capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that >>> capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and >>> largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill >>> Gates!) >>> >>> d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That >>> is, she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but >>> which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the point of >>> the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the >>> same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for >>> indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands >>> are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy >>> them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done >>> by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase >>> wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put >>> out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is >>> probably true). A transitional programme then demands proof--open the >>> account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land >>> for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then >>> capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create >>> its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. >>> >>> Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional >>> programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this struggle is not a >>> game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among >>> transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of >>> ContraPoint's work has a strong flavor of the person in the bath >>> self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will >>> never object that struggle is not a game! >>> >>> (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: >>> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s >>> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in >>> understanding narratives by >>> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: >>> 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> Some e-prints available at: >>> >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < >>> wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> A short video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc >>>> >>>> So yes, it is capitalism >>>> >>>> Wagner >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon dioxide >>>>> the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site Windy. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190824/0db2e7b6/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sat Aug 24 19:02:11 2019 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:02:11 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> Message-ID: Thanks for the reminder, David. The "Transitional Demands" (at least as applied in our own times) always struck me as a bit fake. It is possible to push a transitional demand if (1) At the same time you are fighting for a demand that is achievable without global transformation, and (2) The demands are taken from the existing struggles, not a history book. But I had forgotten about this; my reasoning is different. Martin, Of course! I do not object to generalisation, and understanding the molecular unit of analysis, C-M-C and the molar unit M-C-M are essential starting points. That's why I said: "once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a capitalist world." But beyond M-C-M there are other important units composing the world capitalism system. In some capitalist countries the governments are working quite bravely to protect a fragile environment, and even in Brazil Wagner tells us that there are social forces trying to do so, but overcome not just by large capital, but by a narcissistic, authoritarian president and large-scale agrobusiness. Do you know the tendency known as the Impossibilists? These are people who think of themselves as Marxists but endlessly repeat that "Socialism is impossible until the working class understands ...." It is this destructive kind of thinking which I see as flowing from ascribing every disaster simply and directly of capitalism, as if the economic system is not mediated by culture. Culture is changeable. But I tear my hair out over this just like everyone else. Let's see what the Neoliberal leaders of World Capitalism come up with at the G7, eh? :) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 25/08/2019 7:18 am, David Kellogg wrote: > My dear Martin-- > > Something there is about the way you read--or maybe it's > the way I write--it's very likely the way I write, with > all its multiple embeddings and whatnot--one of us always > manage to get things, as Vygotsky say, ass-backwards. So, > on the one hand,?I?was not?denying that capitalism > turns?nature into raw materials for prouction. That's?not > at all peculiar to capitalism; it exists in all societies > without exception, and it's not even as pronounced in > advanced capitalist societies as it was in some pre-modern > societies (American slavery devastated the soil as well as > the population that worked it). As a result we can expect > (and you prove this when you rummage around, even > rhetorically,?for Bill Gates's e-mail address) to find > many capitalists ostensibly and even?actually?on the side > of nature: renewable resources are just?good business. In > Brazil, for example,?it appears that the really big > agrobusiness companies?are far more aware of how dangerous > the fires are for international trade, while the much > smaller, i.e. less capitalized, enterprises are more > tightly aligned with Bolsinaro and more inclined to > pyromania. I think that dividing one's enemies is always > just the other side of uniting fellow travelers, friends, > and, as Andy says, comrades in arms. > > But on the other hand, I do not think that the solution is > more capitalism, or a gentle transition to some gentler > form of capitalism, or that capitalism is and always will > be the only game "we" know how to play.?I ?was trying to > say that it works better when we raise transitional > demands, demands which force capitalism itself to expose > the links between basic, fundamental, democratic, > not-obviously-anti-capitalist stuff like the right to > breathe air with oxygen in it and teh struggle against > capitalism itself. That is how whole classes can acquire a > perezhivanie of the existential threat they really exist > in, how they can seize conscious awareness of the > existential threat of capitalism. Anything else is going > to lead to what Vygotsky calls empty verbalism. I don't > think that class perezhivanie or the graspture of > conscious awareness is ever gentle, though: the reason I > was using sexual transitioning as a metaphor was that it's > not crisis-free at all, even if you take hormones > "gradually" (one transgender woman described it as having > to do adolescence twice). Finally, I think that the > current crisis tells us is that capitalism is a game > nobody really knows how to play: it's a game that is > playing us as a species and even as a whole social > situation of development. (And, on?a personal level, I am > supposed to teach a class called "Specialism and > Start-ups" this semester, and I really don't have a clue > how to start!) > > Leave it to Andy, with his??heritage in Trotskyism and his > preternatural erudition iin Marxism, to know exactly what > I was getting at. It ws this: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/tp-text.htm#mt > > > David Kellogg > Sangmyung University > > New Article: > Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without > SELF: Vygotsky?s > pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s > construalism in understanding narratives by > Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: > 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > To link to this article: > https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > Some e-prints available at: > https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 > > > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:19 AM Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat > we live in a capitalist world, and that there is a > hellovalot that has to happen between now and a > situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, > we need to think about how to understand and change > our situation ... > > Rather than the truism that the object of all > government and economic activity in the world is > capitalist accumulation, I think we should recognise > the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, > which agrees with Activity Theory -- government and > economic activity can be conceived of as a number of > independent, interconnected *activities* (projects) > like business management, trade, wage determination, > distribution, price determination, a finance system, > as well as environmental protection, taxation, > legislative, judicial, political and policing systems > - every one of which is culturally variable and is > within the grasp of governments and an organisation > people to challenge and change. > > The destruction of the amazon forests and their > crucial role in maintenance of everyone's atmosphere > and the world's biological and cultural resources is a > real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't > solve by starting with the largest possible > generalisation. > > Units of analysis comrades. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> I don?t think what you?re saying negates the >> assertion that capitalism, with its pernicious >> tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? >> materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of >> the problems in the Amazon and many other parts of >> the world. You?re probably correct, though, in >> suggesting that the solution might turn out to be >> more capitalism. It is, after all, the game that we >> play so well, and in fact the only game that we know >> how to play. >> >> So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. >> Who takes the first turn? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Wagner: >>> >>> You were, I remember, interested in?gaming culture. >>> But if I remember correctly, you weren't just >>> interested in gaming culture "in the wild"--when you >>> look at gaming culture on line? in the wild, you see >>> that it's often associated with misogyny, violence, >>> and Alt-right motifs (e.g. the "Lost Cause" of >>> southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for >>> example, has been doing a regular blog for Matrix >>> games on the anniversaries of the civil war, and his >>> work is very often commentated by pro-slavery >>> gamers).? You were interested in gaming culture as a >>> vehicle for teaching-and-learning in schools--both >>> as a vehicle of conveying content, and as a way of >>> mediating the role of the learner from passive >>> recipient to active participant. >>> >>> Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a >>> transexual woman who started out (male) in the >>> on-line?gaming culture?making videos to try to talk >>> to Alt-right people about their support for Donald >>> Trump. I apologize for the coarse language, and some >>> of the rather risque jokes, but you will see it is >>> part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call >>> to vote Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient >>> Truth" with a stirring call to elect democrats, and >>> in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible >>> effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in >>> this film.) >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM >>> >>> Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your >>> video--the spokesperson is carefully chosen and made >>> up, there is a direct?appeal ?to the (male) viewer >>> which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I >>> think is different. >>> >>> a) ContraPoints manages to use many of?the Alt >>> Right's own arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, >>> and even, at one point, their own racism (when she >>> argues that unless climate change is tackled, we >>> will have to deal with hundreds of millions of >>> dark-skinned refugees). She even ends with the idea >>> that all successful political struggles are >>> essentially aimed at mythical enemies. >>> >>> b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to >>> disguise her own Marxist agenda or her own actual >>> persona--she simply?presents it as part of a panoply >>> of gamer identities. >>> >>> c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take >>> an airplane to ISCAR")?nor maximalist ("no es fuego, >>> es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want to simply >>> "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply >>> blame capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere >>> she points out that capitalists themselves are not >>> to blame--since they are helpless and largely >>> harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's >>> appeal to Bill Gates!) >>> >>> d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no >>> pun intended). That is, she begins with simple >>> demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but >>> which neveretheless compel attention even in >>> children (that's the?point of the eroticism, the >>> watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do >>> the same with the demand for a living minimum wage, >>> or protection for indigenous peoples, or simply >>> putting out the fires). Because these demands are >>> not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of >>> capitalism to satisfy them needs to be explained. In >>> real political struggles, this is often done by the >>> capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if >>> we increase wages, protect indigenous people, or--in >>> the case of Bolsinaro--try to put out the fires >>> (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, >>> which is probably true).?A transitional programme >>> then demands proof--open the account books to prove >>> that there is no money for minimal wages, no land >>> for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting >>> firest. It is then capitalism itself which has to >>> demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create its own, >>> united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. >>> >>> Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind >>> of transitional programme is that her humor is >>> misplaced and that this?struggle is not a game. >>> Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide >>> rate among transgender women is somewhere around >>> forty percent, and some of ContraPoint's work?has a >>> strong flavor of the person in the bath >>> self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that >>> you, of all people, will never object that struggle >>> is not a game! >>> >>> (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same >>> reason!) >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: >>> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story >>> without SELF: Vygotsky?s >>> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s >>> construalism in understanding narratives by >>> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: >>> 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> To link to this article: >>> https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> Some e-prints available at: >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> A short video about this: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc >>> >>> So yes, it is capitalism >>> >>> Wagner >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> This is a?satellite image not of fire per se >>> but of?the carbon dioxide the fire is >>> releasing (redder = more CO2) from the >>> weather site?Windy. >>> >>> Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' >>> email address? >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/7cf27514/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Aug 24 19:38:18 2019 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 20:38:18 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: <243E2CF4-0A60-4F10-A17F-8AD4EAD237CC@cantab.net> References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> <243E2CF4-0A60-4F10-A17F-8AD4EAD237CC@cantab.net> Message-ID: Martin, Yes, that was my point in sharing the book. What happens when you destroy the rainforests that are sustaining themselves. The parallel story that Melville tells is from 16th century Mexico and the way that bringing in large numbers of grazing animals changed the ecology of the area for the worse. Am I wrong to guess that this same thing is likely to happen when massive parts of the Amazon rainforest are destroyed by fire? Or was it some other difference you were pointing to? Greg On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 7:02 PM Martin Packer wrote: > Hi Greg, > > I think Wagner?s point was the rain forest sustains itself just fine > without creating the kind of soil that would be useful to farmers. I found > this online: > > The paradox of rainforest soilsTropical soils are notoriously thin and > poor in nutrients. In some parts of the Amazon River Basin > , > white, sandy soils are found, which have evolved through erosion over > hundreds of millions of years. And yet, although these soils have lost > their mineral content and fertility, rich rainforests grow on them. > > In rainforests, some of the highest trees on the planet shoot to the sky. > Dead plants and animals quickly decompose and their organic matter is > utilized by other organisms. > > Martin > > > > On Aug 24, 2019, at 7:39 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > Not that it will make much difference but perhaps now would be a good time > to revisit Elinor Melville's study of early ecological imperialism in > Mexico in her book *A Plague of Sheep*? > Here is a review: > https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=54 > > and a short blurb from the review: > "Above all else, the reader is struck by the extent to which Spaniards > ignored the obvious changes recorded in their own *relaciones* between > 1548 and 1581. In the 1540's, Spanish observers recorded that this valley, > which is to the north of Mexico City and includes Tula, was fit to grow > wheat, with stands of oak and pine forest. Yet, by 1581, the *relaciones* record > an arid region, home of mesquite, prickly pear cacti, and the maguey. In > the interim, the overstocking and overgrazing of sheep, complemented by > other factors such as deforestation to acquire mining beams and charcoal, > had transformed irrigated Otomi' farmland into land fit only for wide-range > grazing." > > Hard not to think that this is where things are headed, esp. considering > Wagner's last post about the nature of the soil in the Amazon. > > -greg > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 5:59 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < > wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Just to make some things clear: >> >> " In Brazil, for example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness >> companies are far more aware of how dangerous the fires are for >> international trade, while the much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, >> enterprises are more tightly aligned with Bolsinaro and more inclined to >> pyromania." >> >> It is the opposite, 75% of the food consumed by Brazilians are produced >> by small farmers, most try to avoid chemicals as much as possible on their >> crops. A considerable part of those consists of people that literally >> fought and died for land, many with a left or even marxist background - The >> government treats some of them as "pro-lula terrorists". Many produce >> organic food and permaculture is growing. They are against the fires and >> the bad use of the land, because if the land dies, they die with it. On the >> other hand those that are in full support of Bolsonaro are the big farmers, >> some need airplanes to go from a place to another of just one farm. Why the >> burn of the forest? The soil at the Amazon region is very poor by itself, >> what sustains the forest is the forest itself. So after some years of soil >> and beef production the land is of not much use, so they move on and >> destroy more forest to grow stuff. Problem is: if the deforestation >> continues, the cycle of water will be broken and most of Amazon forest will >> be doomed and some parts of Brazil and nearby countries will turn into a >> desert. Most of land on Amazon is obtained by forging documents to claim >> land that is of the state, and since most politicians on the region are big >> farmers, they can get out with it. Also just this year Bolsonaro government >> told the farmers that they do not need to pay almost half a million dollars >> on fines on deforestation (and some reports point out that only 10% of the >> illegally deforested land is fined), i.e., basically they can do whatever >> they want. And as I said it is not only the land, native people is being >> killed by farmers and gold miners. >> >> So no, the Big capitalists do not care, and only started to "care" when >> Europe came out with the possibility of a ban. The small producers are not >> much affected by this, for most of them sell for the internal market in >> their vicinity (and really far from Amazon), for most of Brazilian >> population is located near the cost and the south, not the in the north. >> >> Wagner >> >> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 6:23 PM David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> My dear Martin-- >>> >>> Something there is about the way you read--or maybe it's the way I >>> write--it's very likely the way I write, with all its multiple embeddings >>> and whatnot--one of us always manage to get things, as Vygotsky say, >>> ass-backwards. So, on the one hand, I was not denying that capitalism >>> turns nature into raw materials for prouction. That's not at all peculiar >>> to capitalism; it exists in all societies without exception, and it's not >>> even as pronounced in advanced capitalist societies as it was in some >>> pre-modern societies (American slavery devastated the soil as well as the >>> population that worked it). As a result we can expect (and you prove this >>> when you rummage around, even rhetorically, for Bill Gates's e-mail >>> address) to find many capitalists ostensibly and even actually on the side >>> of nature: renewable resources are just good business. In Brazil, for >>> example, it appears that the really big agrobusiness companies are far more >>> aware of how dangerous the fires are for international trade, while the >>> much smaller, i.e. less capitalized, enterprises are more tightly aligned >>> with Bolsinaro and more inclined to pyromania. I think that dividing one's >>> enemies is always just the other side of uniting fellow travelers, friends, >>> and, as Andy says, comrades in arms. >>> >>> But on the other hand, I do not think that the solution is more >>> capitalism, or a gentle transition to some gentler form of capitalism, or >>> that capitalism is and always will be the only game "we" know how to >>> play. I was trying to say that it works better when we raise transitional >>> demands, demands which force capitalism itself to expose the links between >>> basic, fundamental, democratic, not-obviously-anti-capitalist stuff like >>> the right to breathe air with oxygen in it and teh struggle against >>> capitalism itself. That is how whole classes can acquire a perezhivanie of >>> the existential threat they really exist in, how they can seize conscious >>> awareness of the existential threat of capitalism. Anything else is going >>> to lead to what Vygotsky calls empty verbalism. I don't think that class >>> perezhivanie or the graspture of conscious awareness is ever gentle, >>> though: the reason I was using sexual transitioning as a metaphor was that >>> it's not crisis-free at all, even if you take hormones "gradually" (one >>> transgender woman described it as having to do adolescence twice). Finally, >>> I think that the current crisis tells us is that capitalism is a game >>> nobody really knows how to play: it's a game that is playing us as a >>> species and even as a whole social situation of development. (And, on a >>> personal level, I am supposed to teach a class called "Specialism and >>> Start-ups" this semester, and I really don't have a clue how to start!) >>> >>> Leave it to Andy, with his heritage in Trotskyism and his preternatural >>> erudition iin Marxism, to know exactly what I was getting at. It ws this: >>> >>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/tp-text.htm#mt >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Sangmyung University >>> >>> New Article: >>> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s >>> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in >>> understanding narratives by >>> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: >>> 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> Some e-prints available at: >>> >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:19 AM Andy Blunden >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a >>>> capitalist world, and that there is a hellovalot that has to happen between >>>> now and a situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, we need to >>>> think about how to understand and change our situation ... >>>> >>>> Rather than the truism that the object of all government and economic >>>> activity in the world is capitalist accumulation, I think we should >>>> recognise the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, which agrees >>>> with Activity Theory -- government and economic activity can be conceived >>>> of as a number of independent, interconnected *activities* (projects) >>>> like business management, trade, wage determination, distribution, price >>>> determination, a finance system, as well as environmental protection, >>>> taxation, legislative, judicial, political and policing systems - every one >>>> of which is culturally variable and is within the grasp of governments and >>>> an organisation people to challenge and change. >>>> >>>> The destruction of the amazon forests and their crucial role in >>>> maintenance of everyone's atmosphere and the world's biological and >>>> cultural resources is a real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't >>>> solve by starting with the largest possible generalisation. >>>> >>>> Units of analysis comrades. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >>>> On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi David, >>>> >>>> I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion that capitalism, >>>> with its pernicious tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? >>>> materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of the problems in the >>>> Amazon and many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, though, >>>> in suggesting that the solution might turn out to be more capitalism. It >>>> is, after all, the game that we play so well, and in fact the only game >>>> that we know how to play. >>>> >>>> So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who takes the >>>> first turn? >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Wagner: >>>> >>>> You were, I remember, interested in gaming culture. But if I remember >>>> correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the >>>> wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line in the wild, you see that >>>> it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. >>>> the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, >>>> has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the >>>> civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers). >>>> You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for >>>> teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, >>>> and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to >>>> active participant. >>>> >>>> Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who >>>> started out (male) in the on-line gaming culture making videos to try to >>>> talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize >>>> for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will >>>> see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote >>>> Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to >>>> elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible >>>> effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM >>>> >>>> Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the >>>> spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct appeal to >>>> the (male) viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think >>>> is different. >>>> >>>> a) ContraPoints manages to use many of the Alt Right's own >>>> arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own >>>> racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have >>>> to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends >>>> with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed >>>> at mythical enemies. >>>> >>>> b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own >>>> Marxist agenda or her own actual persona--she simply presents it as part of >>>> a panoply of gamer identities. >>>> >>>> c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to >>>> ISCAR") nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want >>>> to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame >>>> capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that >>>> capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and >>>> largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill >>>> Gates!) >>>> >>>> d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That >>>> is, she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but >>>> which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the point of >>>> the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the >>>> same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for >>>> indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands >>>> are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy >>>> them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done >>>> by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase >>>> wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put >>>> out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is >>>> probably true). A transitional programme then demands proof--open the >>>> account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land >>>> for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then >>>> capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create >>>> its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. >>>> >>>> Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional >>>> programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this struggle is not a >>>> game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among >>>> transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of >>>> ContraPoint's work has a strong flavor of the person in the bath >>>> self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will >>>> never object that struggle is not a game! >>>> >>>> (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Sangmyung University >>>> >>>> New Article: >>>> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s >>>> pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in >>>> understanding narratives by >>>> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: >>>> 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>>> To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>>> >>>> Some e-prints available at: >>>> >>>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit < >>>> wagner.schmit@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> A short video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc >>>>> >>>>> So yes, it is capitalism >>>>> >>>>> Wagner >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This is a satellite image not of fire per se but of the carbon >>>>>> dioxide the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather >>>>>> site Windy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190824/abd4e95b/attachment.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sat Aug 24 20:00:52 2019 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 03:00:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Message-ID: I'm reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): "The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]" (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54-67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/00b554de/attachment.html From Andrew.Coppens@unh.edu Sun Aug 25 00:54:52 2019 From: Andrew.Coppens@unh.edu (Coppens, Andrew) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 07:54:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Message-ID: Hi David, I agree; from a sociocultural account there are many problems with the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. One problem has to do with the ?origin? of motivation. Self-Determination Theory (SDT) claims intrinsic motivation is innate. From a theoretical perspective, in Psychology, this innate needs and drives perspective has been replaced by cognitive perspectives such as goal theories (e.g., Eccles, Dweck). Here, the origin of motivation changes to cognitions but the individualistic perspective remains. The next problem with the dichotomy is that it contrasts ? indeed opposes ? the individual and the social and argues that intrinsic motivation is an individual phenomenon. There are many critiques of this aspect, and the field of educational psychology has a number of examples where motivation is conceived as much more social. Although social cognitive theories are now more popular in psychological research, the internal location of self-regulatory mechanisms that contrast with external ?forces? is also central to many of those theories. The need to theorize an ?internalization? mechanism in SDT reflects this individual/social division. Cultural-historical critiques address both of these problems in historicizing motivation as a social and cultural phenomenon. Mariane Hedegaard, Marilyn Fleer, Richard Walker, Dan Hickey, and others have written on this. Not referring to these authors necessarily, ?sociocultural? perspectives on motivation more generally tend to focus on the social and secondarily the historical shifts in theorizing motivation that a CH perspective would offer. Empirically, I and colleagues have critiqued the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy for its inability to account for striking motivational differences in young children?s helpfulness across cultural communities. At ages as young as 2, we?ve found that toddlers from a US Mexican-heritage background voluntarily help around the house more often and with more sophistication than do middle-class European American toddlers ? a difference that seems to increase with age. A theory of motivation focused on innate and universal drives isn?t helpful in accounting for these differences. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a phrase I like ? ?inherent? motivation, as in motivation that is inherent to taking part in shared cultural activity ? that captures the essence of a CH perspective on motivation. US Mexican-heritage toddlers? deep inclusion in family and community activities, I believe, sets the developmental foundation for this inherent motivation to help voluntarily. I?m attaching her paper (it?s in Spanish). Finally, in the early 1970s an interesting explanation by Mark Lepper of the undermining quality of extrinsic incentives (which Deci was among the first to write about in American psychology) on young children?s motivation was that such rewards ?over-justified? their actions ? they were being incentivized to do things they already wanted to do. CHAT perspectives on object/motive offer, I think, more explanatory power: the apparent reduction in motivation may have also been a shift in the object/motive that organized the young children?s actions. The children in Deci?s early studies may have been motivated, inherently, in a variety of different activities with different motives. (I?m happy to share more references if any of this is helpful.) / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens From: on behalf of David H Kirshner Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 11:03 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/48f1eb32/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Paradise 2005 Motivacion e iniciativa en el aprendizaje informal.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 347199 bytes Desc: Paradise 2005 Motivacion e iniciativa en el aprendizaje informal.pdf Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/48f1eb32/attachment.pdf From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Aug 25 01:42:56 2019 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 08:42:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: <726A31B3-7E01-434D-AF6D-4358EF224841@cantab.net> References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> <726A31B3-7E01-434D-AF6D-4358EF224841@cantab.net> Message-ID: <737856504.1649677.1566722576169@mail.yahoo.com> https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/climate-change-and-amazon-fires-come-to-france-with-protests-against-g7/ On Sunday, August 25, 2019, 01:35:07 AM GMT+4:30, Martin Packer wrote: I?m not sure I understand the objection to generalization. For instance, some of the press are calling these fires ?wild fires.? If they were, that might indicate that the problem was caused by inadequate land management. But they are not; they are fires deliberately started by loggers in order to clear areas of the forest for farming, and by farmers to ?prepare? previously cleared land for cultivation. Farming is principally of soy and beef, both sold outside Brazil. Before cultivation the land is treated with insecticide to a depth of several meters. As a result soy cultivation requires fertilizer, obtained by sucking up fish and other sea life and grinding them into sludge which is then applied to the crops.?Bolsinaro has now deployed troops to help fight the fires. But he has also stated today that his focus will continue to be on the sustainable development of the Amazon reason in order to create economic growth for Brazil. Like I said, capitalism. Sure it is a system, with interconnected constituents. But I would say that it is just as important to grasp the big picture as it is to understand any constituent. Bolsinaro is being a rational capitalist, within the scope of that system. However, what capitalists in general seem unable or unwilling to grasp is that there is an ever bigger system, where human economic and political activity is coupled with the flow of water, oxygen, carbon dioxide, life and habitat around the planet. It?s one thing to point out that capitalist accumulation creates inequities. It?s another thing entirely to point out that it is destroying the basis for its own existence. Any activity that does that is not merely unfair, it is insane.? Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs.?Seligman or?Dr. Lowie or discuss matters?with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I?become at?once?aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually?with the?feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Aug 23, 2019, at 8:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a capitalist world, and that there is a hellovalot that has to happen between now and a situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, we need to think about how to understand and change our situation ... Rather than the truism that the object of all government and economic activity in the world is capitalist accumulation, I think we should recognise the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, which agrees with Activity Theory -- government and economic activity can be conceived of as a number of independent, interconnected activities (projects) like business management, trade, wage determination, distribution, price determination, a finance system, as well as environmental protection,? taxation, legislative, judicial, political and policing systems - every one of which is culturally variable and is within the grasp of governments and an organisation people to challenge and change. The destruction of the amazon forests and their crucial role in maintenance of everyone's atmosphere and the world's biological and cultural resources is a real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't solve by starting with the largest possible generalisation. Units of analysis comrades. Andy Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: Hi David, I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion that capitalism, with its pernicious tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of the problems in the Amazon and many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, though, in suggesting that the solution might turn out to be more capitalism. It is, after all, the game that we play so well, and in fact the only game that we know how to play. So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who takes the first turn? Martin On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: Wagner: You were, I remember, interested in?gaming culture. But if I remember correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line? in the wild, you see that it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers).? You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to active participant. Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who started out (male) in the on-line?gaming culture?making videos to try to talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct?appeal ?to the (male) viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think is different. a) ContraPoints manages to use many of?the Alt Right's own arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed at mythical enemies. b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own Marxist agenda or her own actual persona--she simply?presents it as part of a panoply of gamer identities. c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to ISCAR")?nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill Gates!) d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That is, she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the?point of the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is probably true).?A transitional programme then demands proof--open the account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this?struggle is not a game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of ContraPoint's work?has a strong flavor of the person in the bath self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will never object that struggle is not a game! (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article:? Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by Korean children, Language and Education, DOI:10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 Some e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: A short video about this:? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc So yes, it is capitalism Wagner On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer wrote: This is a?satellite image not of fire per se but of?the carbon dioxide the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site?Windy. Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/2272cc8e/attachment.html From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Aug 25 02:00:29 2019 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 09:00:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Burning... In-Reply-To: <726A31B3-7E01-434D-AF6D-4358EF224841@cantab.net> References: <8E279534-B5EF-4D95-8BC6-118FE043A82B@cantab.net> <12c3d7b0b72268e0bf854f1e4807e92b@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> <37844A70-1A70-473B-B20C-65EAD550AA0A@cantab.net> <78ec7d94-cddd-0a11-764f-69841607897a@marxists.org> <726A31B3-7E01-434D-AF6D-4358EF224841@cantab.net> Message-ID: <948486452.1643887.1566723629639@mail.yahoo.com> Hi all,If the link does not open , please use this doc.format attached. Haydi? On Sunday, August 25, 2019, 01:35:07 AM GMT+4:30, Martin Packer wrote: I?m not sure I understand the objection to generalization. For instance, some of the press are calling these fires ?wild fires.? If they were, that might indicate that the problem was caused by inadequate land management. But they are not; they are fires deliberately started by loggers in order to clear areas of the forest for farming, and by farmers to ?prepare? previously cleared land for cultivation. Farming is principally of soy and beef, both sold outside Brazil. Before cultivation the land is treated with insecticide to a depth of several meters. As a result soy cultivation requires fertilizer, obtained by sucking up fish and other sea life and grinding them into sludge which is then applied to the crops.?Bolsinaro has now deployed troops to help fight the fires. But he has also stated today that his focus will continue to be on the sustainable development of the Amazon reason in order to create economic growth for Brazil. Like I said, capitalism. Sure it is a system, with interconnected constituents. But I would say that it is just as important to grasp the big picture as it is to understand any constituent. Bolsinaro is being a rational capitalist, within the scope of that system. However, what capitalists in general seem unable or unwilling to grasp is that there is an ever bigger system, where human economic and political activity is coupled with the flow of water, oxygen, carbon dioxide, life and habitat around the planet. It?s one thing to point out that capitalist accumulation creates inequities. It?s another thing entirely to point out that it is destroying the basis for its own existence. Any activity that does that is not merely unfair, it is insane.? Martin "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs.?Seligman or?Dr. Lowie or discuss matters?with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I?become at?once?aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually?with the?feeling that this also applies to myself? (Malinowski, 1930) On Aug 23, 2019, at 8:17 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: I think that once we have grasped the simple fact hat we live in a capitalist world, and that there is a hellovalot that has to happen between now and a situation where we don't live in a capitalist world, we need to think about how to understand and change our situation ... Rather than the truism that the object of all government and economic activity in the world is capitalist accumulation, I think we should recognise the truth put forward by the Regulation Theorists, which agrees with Activity Theory -- government and economic activity can be conceived of as a number of independent, interconnected activities (projects) like business management, trade, wage determination, distribution, price determination, a finance system, as well as environmental protection,? taxation, legislative, judicial, political and policing systems - every one of which is culturally variable and is within the grasp of governments and an organisation people to challenge and change. The destruction of the amazon forests and their crucial role in maintenance of everyone's atmosphere and the world's biological and cultural resources is a real problem. I don't know the answer. But we can't solve by starting with the largest possible generalisation. Units of analysis comrades. Andy Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 24/08/2019 8:46 am, Martin Packer wrote: Hi David, I don?t think what you?re saying negates the assertion that capitalism, with its pernicious tendency to turn every aspect of nature into ?raw? materials and ?natural" resources, is the source of the problems in the Amazon and many other parts of the world. You?re probably correct, though, in suggesting that the solution might turn out to be more capitalism. It is, after all, the game that we play so well, and in fact the only game that we know how to play. So transition rather than revolution? Okay, I?m game. Who takes the first turn? Martin On Aug 23, 2019, at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: Wagner: You were, I remember, interested in?gaming culture. But if I remember correctly, you weren't just interested in gaming culture "in the wild"--when you look at gaming culture on line? in the wild, you see that it's often associated with misogyny, violence, and Alt-right motifs (e.g. the "Lost Cause" of southern slavery in the USA--my brother, for example, has been doing a regular blog for Matrix games on the anniversaries of the civil war, and his work is very often commentated by pro-slavery gamers).? You were interested in gaming culture as a vehicle for teaching-and-learning in schools--both as a vehicle of conveying content, and as a way of mediating the role of the learner from passive recipient to active participant. Well, consider THIS video, which was made by a transexual woman who started out (male) in the on-line?gaming culture?making videos to try to talk to Alt-right people about their support for Donald Trump. I apologize for the coarse language, and some of the rather risque jokes, but you will see it is part of the message. (I also do not endorse the call to vote Democratic: Al Gore ended "An Inconvenient Truth" with a stirring call to elect democrats, and in 2008 Americans dutifully did, with no discernible effect whatsoever on any of the issues raised in this film.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GodWn4XMM Now, in some ways, it is srikingly similar to your video--the spokesperson is carefully chosen and made up, there is a direct?appeal ?to the (male) viewer which doesn't eschew sex appeal. But here's what I think is different. a) ContraPoints manages to use many of?the Alt Right's own arguments--their aesthetic, their humor, and even, at one point, their own racism (when she argues that unless climate change is tackled, we will have to deal with hundreds of millions of dark-skinned refugees). She even ends with the idea that all successful political struggles are essentially aimed at mythical enemies. b) ContraPoints, nevertheless, does not have to disguise her own Marxist agenda or her own actual persona--she simply?presents it as part of a panoply of gamer identities. c) ContraPoints is neither minimalist ("don't take an airplane to ISCAR")?nor maximalist ("no es fuego, es capitalismo!")--she doesn't want to simply "meliorate" capitalism, nor is she happy to simply blame capitalism for everything (in fact, elsewhere she points out that capitalists themselves are not to blame--since they are helpless and largely harmless patsies for Capital itself, hence Martin's appeal to Bill Gates!) d) Instead, ContraPoints is a transitionalist (no pun intended). That is, she begins with simple demands which are in no way anti-capitalist--but which neveretheless compel attention even in children (that's the?point of the eroticism, the watermelon, the knife, etc, but she could also do the same with the demand for a living minimum wage, or protection for indigenous peoples, or simply putting out the fires). Because these demands are not inherently anti-capitalist, the inability of capitalism to satisfy them needs to be explained. In real political struggles, this is often done by the capitalists themselves: we cannot make a profit if we increase wages, protect indigenous people, or--in the case of Bolsinaro--try to put out the fires (Bolsinaro says Brazil doesn't have the resources, which is probably true).?A transitional programme then demands proof--open the account books to prove that there is no money for minimal wages, no land for indigenous peoples, no resources for fighting firest. It is then capitalism itself which has to demonstrate its own bankruptcy--and create its own, united, educated, and purposeful gravediggers. Of course, the most obvious objection to this kind of transitional programme is that her humor is misplaced and that this?struggle is not a game. Sometimes the humor is beside the point--the suicide rate among transgender women is somewhere around forty percent, and some of ContraPoint's work?has a strong flavor of the person in the bath self-medicating and self-treating. But I know that you, of all people, will never object that struggle is not a game! (By the way, I'm not going to ISCAR either--same reason!) David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article:? Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by Korean children, Language and Education, DOI:10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 Some e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:35 PM Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: A short video about this:? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiutlJ7uWc So yes, it is capitalism Wagner On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:08 PM Martin Packer wrote: This is a?satellite image not of fire per se but of?the carbon dioxide the fire is releasing (redder = more CO2) from the weather site?Windy. Perhaps worth sharing? Who has Bill Gates' email address? Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/25ecccee/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Climate change.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 198500 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/25ecccee/attachment-0001.bin From arips@optonline.net Sun Aug 25 05:27:07 2019 From: arips@optonline.net (rips) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 08:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <301044893.1194653.1566736027959@mymail.optimum.net> That's correct about the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy mostly being approached as an individual manner. Deci and Ryan do research intrinsic motivation in groups for example fitness motivation with technology. > > Hi David, > > > > I agree; from a sociocultural account there are many problems with the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. > > > > One problem has to do with the ?origin? of motivation. Self-Determination Theory (SDT) claims intrinsic motivation is innate. From a theoretical perspective, in Psychology, this innate needs and drives perspective has been replaced by cognitive perspectives such as goal theories (e.g., Eccles, Dweck). Here, the origin of motivation changes to cognitions but the individualistic perspective remains. > > > > The next problem with the dichotomy is that it contrasts ? indeed opposes ? the individual and the social and argues that intrinsic motivation is an individual phenomenon. There are many critiques of this aspect, and the field of educational psychology has a number of examples where motivation is conceived as much more social. Although social cognitive theories are now more popular in psychological research, the internal location of self-regulatory mechanisms that contrast with external ?forces? is also central to many of those theories. The need to theorize an ?internalization? mechanism in SDT reflects this individual/social division. > > > > Cultural-historical critiques address both of these problems in historicizing motivation as a social and cultural phenomenon. Mariane Hedegaard, Marilyn Fleer, Richard Walker, Dan Hickey, and others have written on this. Not referring to these authors necessarily, ?sociocultural? perspectives on motivation more generally tend to focus on the social and secondarily the historical shifts in theorizing motivation that a CH perspective would offer. > > > > Empirically, I and colleagues have critiqued the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy for its inability to account for striking motivational differences in young children?s helpfulness across cultural communities. At ages as young as 2, we?ve found that toddlers from a US Mexican-heritage background voluntarily help around the house more often and with more sophistication than do middle-class European American toddlers ? a difference that seems to increase with age. A theory of motivation focused on innate and universal drives isn?t helpful in accounting for these differences. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a phrase I like ? ?inherent? motivation, as in motivation that is inherent to taking part in shared cultural activity ? that captures the essence of a CH perspective on motivation. US Mexican-heritage toddlers? deep inclusion in family and community activities, I believe, sets the developmental foundation for this inherent motivation to help voluntarily. I?m attaching her paper (it?s in Spanish). > > > > Finally, in the early 1970s an interesting explanation by Mark Lepper of the undermining quality of extrinsic incentives (which Deci was among the first to write about in American psychology) on young children?s motivation was that such rewards ?over-justified? their actions ? they were being incentivized to do things they already wanted to do. CHAT perspectives on object/motive offer, I think, more explanatory power: the apparent reduction in motivation may have also been a shift in the object/motive that organized the young children?s actions. The children in Deci?s early studies may have been motivated, inherently, in a variety of different activities with different motives. > > > > (I?m happy to share more references if any of this is helpful.) > > > > / Andrew > > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens https://twitter.com/andrewcoppens > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens https://calendly.com/acoppens > > > > From: on behalf of David H Kirshner > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 11:03 PM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > > > > > I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): > > ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). > > > > This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. > > > > Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? > > Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? > > > > David > > > > Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/f90bfada/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sun Aug 25 06:28:40 2019 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 23:28:40 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. What is the problem? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: > > I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic > and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and > Deci (2000): > > ?The most basic distinction is between /intrinsic > motivation/, which refers to doing something because it is > inherently interesting or enjoyable, and /extrinsic > motivation/, which refers to doing something because it > leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for > instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). > > This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of > reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize > what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as > inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals > as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life > histories. > > Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation > surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? > > Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural > critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? > > David > > Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic > motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. > /Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25/, 54?67. > https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/d990e35c/attachment.html From goncu@uic.edu Sun Aug 25 07:30:49 2019 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:30:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> References: , <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> Message-ID: <30AFEDD3-C82D-400E-8364-0985E57A3F2D@uic.edu> Hi all, I had trouble with this distinction for a long time and published an article with Jennifer Vadebonceour discussing difficulties maintaining it (from a sociocultural point of view) in understanding motivation for play. The reference is below: Expanding the definitional criteria for imaginative play: Contributions of sociocultural perspectives Artin G?nc?, Jennifer A Vadeboncoeur Learning & behavior 45 (4), 422-431, 2017 Best, ag Sent from my iPhone On Aug 25, 2019, at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. What is the problem? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/02343ae8/attachment.html From Andrew.Coppens@unh.edu Sun Aug 25 07:34:23 2019 From: Andrew.Coppens@unh.edu (Coppens, Andrew) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:34:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> References: , <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> Message-ID: I don?t know much about a characteristically CHAT objection to the distinction but, to my mind, the main problem is in how intrinsic motivation is characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that extrinsic motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., not just a distinction but a dichotomy). These two features of the theory create many problems regarding what I need a theory of motivation to help explain. My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, but there are a number of reasons I can imagine being OK with that. / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Caution - External Email ________________________________ For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. What is the problem? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/372a9337/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sun Aug 25 08:52:40 2019 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 01:52:40 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> Message-ID: Artin, is there any chance that your 'trouble' can be expressed in a paragraph here? Andrew, I also suspect that the making of the distinction into a dichotomy, a behaviourist interpretation of the distinction and an ahistorical understanding of the idea may cause others to reject it, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We have politicians in this country, and I do believe that some of them participate in the practice of politics for the purpose of furthering and even perfecting that practice, maybe only a few, but some. But I am sure that there are some who in there for other purposes, mostly enrichment and/or fame. True, it is not a dichotomy; some who are there in order to advance political practice also enjoy the game and the fame in can bring. But to collapse the two would be madness. The practice of politics has an object which is not self-enrichment. Individual motivation must be judged against that concept of politics. A while ago I was giving a talk on my book "Origins of Collective Decision Making," explaining the ethical and instrumental differences between Consensus and Majority, and a young anarchist said she /enjoyed/ consensus much more than majority decision making. That there could be reason for choosing one mode of action rather than another other the pleasure derived had not occurred to her. I was, I admit, a bit shocked. This case brings out the subtlety of the distinction. Acting in political meetings for the sheer pleasure of doing it is actually an /extrinsic/ motive, whereas acting in meetings to produce good decisions implies /intrinsic/ motivation. But superficially, it seems to be the other way around. In a certain context, e.g. playing tennis, doing it for the pleasure of doing it counts as an intrinsic motivation, and when you become a profession and maybe then start playing for the prize money and adulation/, /rather than in the perfection of the game, then that is extrinsic motivation. It depends on whether tennis is taken as a game or a sport, professional or otherwise. But maybe it is just the difficulty in making a nice clear dichotomy which sets people against the distinction? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 12:34 am, Coppens, Andrew wrote: > I don?t know much about a characteristically CHAT > objection to the distinction but, to my mind, the main > problem is in how intrinsic motivation is characterized > (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that extrinsic > motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., not just a > distinction but a dichotomy). These two features of the > theory create many problems regarding what I need a theory > of motivation to help explain. > > My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, but > there are a number of reasons I can imagine being OK with > that. > > / Andrew > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy > Blunden > *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > *Caution - External Email* > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT > people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet > the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity > Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my > opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a > theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. > > What is the problem? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: >> >> I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic >> and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan >> and Deci (2000): >> >> ?The most basic distinction is between /intrinsic >> motivation/, which refers to doing something because it >> is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and /extrinsic >> motivation/, which refers to doing something because it >> leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for >> instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). >> >> This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of >> reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to >> naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically >> motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect >> to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally >> constituted life histories. >> >> Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation >> surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? >> >> Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural >> critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? >> >> David >> >> Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic >> motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. >> /Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25/, 54?67. >> https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190826/1950e311/attachment.html From atencio1@unm.edu Sun Aug 25 09:03:24 2019 From: atencio1@unm.edu (David Atencio) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:03:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: <301044893.1194653.1566736027959@mymail.optimum.net> References: <301044893.1194653.1566736027959@mymail.optimum.net> Message-ID: <08EDB737-D70C-4AD4-82D1-6D5ADDED7C20@unm.edu> David, I encourage you to read more work from the self determination lab at Rochester. You can access much of their work by registering as a member. In particular, I recommend you take a look at Deci and Ryan?s chapter in Dennis McInerney and Shawn Van Etten?s edited book ?Big Theories Revisited? Reeve, J. M., Deci, E. L, & Ryan, R. M. (2004). Self-determination theory: A dialectical framework for understanding sociocultural influences on student motivation. I understand their Organisimic Integration Theory to be quite consistent with Vygotsky?s general law of cultural development. This is their unique account of how extrinsic motivation can develop into self-determination through the same inter psychological ? intra psychological transformational process Vygotsky spoke about. David J. Atencio, Ph.D. Associate Professor, Family & Child Studies Program Department of Individual, Family, & Community Education College of Education MFC 05-3040 1University of New Mexico Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131 (505) 277-3757 https://coe.unm.edu/departments-programs/ifce/family-child-studies/faculty.html From: on behalf of rips Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 6:29 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" , "Coppens, Andrew" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation That's correct about the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy mostly being approached as an individual manner. Deci and Ryan do research intrinsic motivation in groups for example fitness motivation with technology. Hi David, I agree; from a sociocultural account there are many problems with the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. One problem has to do with the ?origin? of motivation. Self-Determination Theory (SDT) claims intrinsic motivation is innate. From a theoretical perspective, in Psychology, this innate needs and drives perspective has been replaced by cognitive perspectives such as goal theories (e.g., Eccles, Dweck). Here, the origin of motivation changes to cognitions but the individualistic perspective remains. The next problem with the dichotomy is that it contrasts ? indeed opposes ? the individual and the social and argues that intrinsic motivation is an individual phenomenon. There are many critiques of this aspect, and the field of educational psychology has a number of examples where motivation is conceived as much more social. Although social cognitive theories are now more popular in psychological research, the internal location of self-regulatory mechanisms that contrast with external ?forces? is also central to many of those theories. The need to theorize an ?internalization? mechanism in SDT reflects this individual/social division. Cultural-historical critiques address both of these problems in historicizing motivation as a social and cultural phenomenon. Mariane Hedegaard, Marilyn Fleer, Richard Walker, Dan Hickey, and others have written on this. Not referring to these authors necessarily, ?sociocultural? perspectives on motivation more generally tend to focus on the social and secondarily the historical shifts in theorizing motivation that a CH perspective would offer. Empirically, I and colleagues have critiqued the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy for its inability to account for striking motivational differences in young children?s helpfulness across cultural communities. At ages as young as 2, we?ve found that toddlers from a US Mexican-heritage background voluntarily help around the house more often and with more sophistication than do middle-class European American toddlers ? a difference that seems to increase with age. A theory of motivation focused on innate and universal drives isn?t helpful in accounting for these differences. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a phrase I like ? ?inherent? motivation, as in motivation that is inherent to taking part in shared cultural activity ? that captures the essence of a CH perspective on motivation. US Mexican-heritage toddlers? deep inclusion in family and community activities, I believe, sets the developmental foundation for this inherent motivation to help voluntarily. I?m attaching her paper (it?s in Spanish). Finally, in the early 1970s an interesting explanation by Mark Lepper of the undermining quality of extrinsic incentives (which Deci was among the first to write about in American psychology) on young children?s motivation was that such rewards ?over-justified? their actions ? they were being incentivized to do things they already wanted to do. CHAT perspectives on object/motive offer, I think, more explanatory power: the apparent reduction in motivation may have also been a shift in the object/motive that organized the young children?s actions. The children in Deci?s early studies may have been motivated, inherently, in a variety of different activities with different motives. (I?m happy to share more references if any of this is helpful.) / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens From: on behalf of David H Kirshner Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date: Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 11:03 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/2ee89218/attachment.html From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Aug 25 09:06:41 2019 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:06:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> Message-ID: <1403506035.1775736.1566749201357@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Andy,What do you mean by saying "?And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory." You mean A.N. exposes this distinction or you mean he is on the side of the intrinsic option to the exclusion of the extrinsic option? I had to consult the text : [Even in the 1930s S. L. Rubinshtein18 indicated the important theoretical significance for psychology of the thinking of Marx about the fact that in ordinary material work we have before us an open book of human essential strengths, and that a psychology for which this book remains closed cannot become a substantial and real science: Psychology cannot ignore the riches of human activity. In addition, in his subsequent publications, S. L. Rubinshtein stressed that although practical activity by means of which people change nature and society *also enters into the sphere of psychology*, the object of psychological study ?is only their specifically psychological content, their motivation and regulation, by means of which actions are brought into conformity with reflected sensations, perceptions, and consciousness by the objective conditions in which they are performed. 19 *Thus practical activity, according to the author, is a subject of study for psychology, but only that specific content that appears in the form of sensation, perception, thinking, and in general in the form of internal psychic processes and conditions of the subject. But this conviction is, to some degree, one sided inasmuch as it is abstracted from the major fact that activity ? in one form or another ? is part of the very process of psychic reflection, part of the content of this process, and its beginning.* Let us consider the most simple case: the process of perceiving the resilience of an object. This is an external motor process by means of which the subject makes a practical contact, a practical connection with an external object; the process may be directed toward accomplishing even a non-cognitive but very practical task, for example, the deformation of the object. The subjective image that arises here is, of course, psychic and, correspondingly, indisputably a subject for psychological study. In order to understand the nature of the given image, however, I must study the process that gives rise to it, and this, in the case under consideration, **is an external practical process.** ? **Whether I want this or not, whether it agrees with my theoretical views or not, I am all the same obliged to include in the subject of my psychological investigation the external, objective action of the subject.** This means that it is incorrect to think that although the external, objective activity presents itself for psychological investigation, it does so only to the extent that it includes internal psychic processes and that psychological investigation advances without studying external activity itself or its structure. One may agree with this only if one can accept a one-sided dependence of external activity on a psychic image representation of goals or a mental plan directing the activity. ***But this is not so.*** Activity necessarily enters into practical contact with objects that confront man, that divert it, change it, or enrich it. In other words, especially in external activity there occurs an opening up of the circle of external psychic processes as if to meet the objective object world imperiously intruding into this circle. Thus activity enters into the subject matter of psychology, not in its own special ?place? or ?element? but through its special function. This is the function of entrusting the subject to an objective reality and transforming this reality into a form of subjectivity. Let us return, however, to the case of initiating psychic reflection of an elementary property of a material object under conditions of practical contact with it. This case was cited only as an illustrative, much oversimplified example. It has, however, a real genetic sense. It is hardly necessary now to prove that at initial stages of its development, activity necessarily has the form of external processes and that, correspondingly, the psychic image is a product of these processes connecting the subject in a practical way with objective reality. It is evident that at various genetic stages the scientific explanation of the nature and specific features of psychic reflection is impossible except on the basis of the study of these external processes. At the same time this does not mean replacing the study of the psyche with the study of behavior but only a demystification of the nature of the psyche. Otherwise we will be left with nothing more than having to acknowledge the existence of a secret ?psychic faculty,? which consists in this: that under the influence of external stimuli falling on the receptors of the subject, in his brain ? in the order of a phenomenon parallel to physiological processes ? there arises some kind of internal light that illuminates the world for man, that something like an irradiation of images takes place that subsequently is localized or ?objectivised? by the subject in the surrounding space.] Haydi On Sunday, August 25, 2019, 06:01:23 PM GMT+4:30, Andy Blunden wrote: For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. What is the problem? Andy Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). ? This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. ? Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? ? David ? Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/84367608/attachment.html From patrick.jaki@gmail.com Sun Aug 25 09:23:39 2019 From: patrick.jaki@gmail.com (Patrick Jaki) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 18:23:39 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hello Everyone, I, also like Andy, struggle to understand why all and sundry struggle with the instinsic and extrinsic motivation dichotomy. Haven't we unwittingly imported the Cartesian dualism into motivation? *Patrick Jaki* On Sun, 25 Aug 2019, 16:36 Coppens, Andrew, wrote: > I don?t know much about a characteristically CHAT objection to the > distinction but, to my mind, the main problem is in how intrinsic > motivation is characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that > extrinsic motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., not just a > distinction but a dichotomy). These two features of the theory create many > problems regarding what I need a theory of motivation to help explain. > > My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, but there are a > number of reasons I can imagine being OK with that. > > / Andrew > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens > ------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > *Caution - External Email* > ------------------------------ > > For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be > set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N > Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in > my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of > motivation that lacked this distinction. > > What is the problem? > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: > > I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic > motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): > > ?The most basic distinction is between *intrinsic motivation*, which > refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or > enjoyable, and *extrinsic motivation*, which refers to doing something > because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental > reasons]? (p. 55). > > > > This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most > pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or > intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to > individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life > histories. > > > > Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in > sociocultural theory? > > Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the > intrinsic / extrinsic construct? > > > > David > > > > Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: > Classic definitions and new directions. *Contemporary Educational > Psychology, 25*, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/3e2bb0e0/attachment.html From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Aug 25 09:32:17 2019 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:32:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> Message-ID: Hi all, The earliest I have read about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation (the earliest is was mentioned) was, as with so much else in John Dewey - Democracy and Education. It may have been mentioned earlier and it was probably an idea floating around. I would be it came up at some of the salons at Jane Addams place. The general distinction (I don't think dichotomy is the correct word here) is that the extrinsic reward is something that an agent is offering an individual (in Dewey's case a child) to get them to do something. Dewey's criticism is - for lack of a better word - pragmatic. Extrinsic rewards tend to fade or disappear. If somebody it paying you to do something and the reason you are doing it is because they are paying you, then you stop doing it when you stop getting paid. There is nothing inherently bad in this but it is not what Dewey might call vital experience, it doesn't change the way you approach the world, has not impact on lifelong learning. However if you are doing something because you want to do it, without an outside agent or the outside agent is superfluous then there is a greater chance you will keep doing. The action is not dependent on anybody else. So Andy I think your example or somebody attending a political meeting because they enjoy is actually intrinsic motivation while somebody attending a meeting because they want to get things done is extrinsic, in other words they will stop attending if they don't think things will get done (something like this has been defined as political efficacy). If I read this wrong I apologize. The reason I think it might be unwise to consider it a dichotomy is because of the way the two have been define since Bandura. It is more of a process. You need to start with extrinsic motivation but through a process of feedback (yes, Bandrua like cybernetics) and positive reinforcement through success it slowly becomes intrinsic. It is one of the fundamental tenets of socio-cognitive theory. I have no idea why socio-culturalists do not like this, it seems to fit pretty well, but I am interested to here. As for Deci and Ryan's self-determination theory I don't really think of intrinsic motivation as innate (do they say that). It is more emergent. You have to have the right circumstances, which include autonomy, relatedness, and competence and this perfect storm leads to intrinsic motivation. But it is difficult to attain without it. Can you call that innate? Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:53 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Artin, is there any chance that your 'trouble' can be expressed in a paragraph here? Andrew, I also suspect that the making of the distinction into a dichotomy, a behaviourist interpretation of the distinction and an ahistorical understanding of the idea may cause others to reject it, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We have politicians in this country, and I do believe that some of them participate in the practice of politics for the purpose of furthering and even perfecting that practice, maybe only a few, but some. But I am sure that there are some who in there for other purposes, mostly enrichment and/or fame. True, it is not a dichotomy; some who are there in order to advance political practice also enjoy the game and the fame in can bring. But to collapse the two would be madness. The practice of politics has an object which is not self-enrichment. Individual motivation must be judged against that concept of politics. A while ago I was giving a talk on my book "Origins of Collective Decision Making," explaining the ethical and instrumental differences between Consensus and Majority, and a young anarchist said she enjoyed consensus much more than majority decision making. That there could be reason for choosing one mode of action rather than another other the pleasure derived had not occurred to her. I was, I admit, a bit shocked. This case brings out the subtlety of the distinction. Acting in political meetings for the sheer pleasure of doing it is actually an extrinsic motive, whereas acting in meetings to produce good decisions implies intrinsic motivation. But superficially, it seems to be the other way around. In a certain context, e.g. playing tennis, doing it for the pleasure of doing it counts as an intrinsic motivation, and when you become a profession and maybe then start playing for the prize money and adulation, rather than in the perfection of the game, then that is extrinsic motivation. It depends on whether tennis is taken as a game or a sport, professional or otherwise. But maybe it is just the difficulty in making a nice clear dichotomy which sets people against the distinction? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 12:34 am, Coppens, Andrew wrote: I don't know much about a characteristically CHAT objection to the distinction but, to my mind, the main problem is in how intrinsic motivation is characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that extrinsic motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., not just a distinction but a dichotomy). These two features of the theory create many problems regarding what I need a theory of motivation to help explain. My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, but there are a number of reasons I can imagine being OK with that. / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Caution - External Email ________________________________ For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. What is the problem? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: I'm reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): "The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]" (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54-67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/6b31c4c8/attachment.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sun Aug 25 10:19:00 2019 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 17:19:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: <08EDB737-D70C-4AD4-82D1-6D5ADDED7C20@unm.edu> References: <301044893.1194653.1566736027959@mymail.optimum.net> <08EDB737-D70C-4AD4-82D1-6D5ADDED7C20@unm.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, David. I will look at Reeve?s et al. as you suggest, but I?m not too encouraged by Ryan and Deci (2000), that I cited earlier. They do reference sociocultural constructs like internalization and notions of identity: Given that many of the educational activities prescribed in schools are not designed to be intrinsically interesting, a central question concerns how to motivate students to value and self-regulate such activities, and without external pressure, to carry them out on their own. This problem is described within SDT in terms of fostering the internalization and integration of values and behavioral regulations (Deci & Ryan, 1985). Internalization is the process of taking in a value or regulation, and integration is the process by which individuals more fully transform the regulation into their own so that it will emanate from their sense of self. (p. 60) But their underlying explanatory framework provides no room for any constructs that extend beyond the individual, so the basis for what comes to be identified as motivational is simply generalization of what has been observed to be motivational in practice: Cognitive Evaluation Theory (CET) was presented by Deci and Ryan (1985) to specify the factors in social contexts that produce variability in intrinsic motivation. CET, which is considered a subtheory of self-determination theory, argues that interpersonal events and structures (e.g., rewards, communications, feedback) that conduce toward feelings of competence during action can enhance intrinsic motivation for that action because they allow satisfaction of the basic psychological need for competence. Accordingly, for example, optimal challenges, effectance promoting feedback, and freedom from demeaning evaluations are all predicted to facilitate intrinsic motivation. CET further specifies that feelings of competence will not enhance intrinsic motivation unless they are accompanied by a sense of autonomy or, in attributional terms, by an internal perceived locus of causality (IPLOC; de- Charms, 1968). Thus, people must not only experience perceived competence (or self-efficacy), they must also experience their behavior to be self-determined if intrinsic motivation is to be maintained or enhanced. (p. 58) Yes, as socioculturalists we can build a story of how and why self-efficacy and autonomy come to be part of a developmental trajectory of becoming (for some students), but Ryan and Deci can?t. For them, this is just empirical generalization, and their claim to having a predictive theory is just posturing. The weakness comes from their basic definition I quoted earlier that talks of some things being ?inherently interesting or enjoyable? and hence intrinsically motivating. But ?inherent? and ?intrinsic? are mere synonyms, there is no content to this definition beyond what empirically has proven to be ?inherently interesting or enjoyable.? David PS. Appreciate the many replies so far, and am working my way through them. From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of David Atencio Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:03 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity ; Coppens, Andrew Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation David, I encourage you to read more work from the self determination lab at Rochester. You can access much of their work by registering as a member. In particular, I recommend you take a look at Deci and Ryan?s chapter in Dennis McInerney and Shawn Van Etten?s edited book ?Big Theories Revisited? Reeve, J. M., Deci, E. L, & Ryan, R. M. (2004). Self-determination theory: A dialectical framework for understanding sociocultural influences on student motivation. I understand their Organisimic Integration Theory to be quite consistent with Vygotsky?s general law of cultural development. This is their unique account of how extrinsic motivation can develop into self-determination through the same inter psychological ? intra psychological transformational process Vygotsky spoke about. David J. Atencio, Ph.D. Associate Professor, Family & Child Studies Program Department of Individual, Family, & Community Education College of Education MFC 05-3040 1University of New Mexico Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131 (505) 277-3757 https://coe.unm.edu/departments-programs/ifce/family-child-studies/faculty.html From: > on behalf of rips > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 6:29 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >, "Coppens, Andrew" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation That's correct about the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy mostly being approached as an individual manner. Deci and Ryan do research intrinsic motivation in groups for example fitness motivation with technology. Hi David, I agree; from a sociocultural account there are many problems with the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. One problem has to do with the ?origin? of motivation. Self-Determination Theory (SDT) claims intrinsic motivation is innate. From a theoretical perspective, in Psychology, this innate needs and drives perspective has been replaced by cognitive perspectives such as goal theories (e.g., Eccles, Dweck). Here, the origin of motivation changes to cognitions but the individualistic perspective remains. The next problem with the dichotomy is that it contrasts ? indeed opposes ? the individual and the social and argues that intrinsic motivation is an individual phenomenon. There are many critiques of this aspect, and the field of educational psychology has a number of examples where motivation is conceived as much more social. Although social cognitive theories are now more popular in psychological research, the internal location of self-regulatory mechanisms that contrast with external ?forces? is also central to many of those theories. The need to theorize an ?internalization? mechanism in SDT reflects this individual/social division. Cultural-historical critiques address both of these problems in historicizing motivation as a social and cultural phenomenon. Mariane Hedegaard, Marilyn Fleer, Richard Walker, Dan Hickey, and others have written on this. Not referring to these authors necessarily, ?sociocultural? perspectives on motivation more generally tend to focus on the social and secondarily the historical shifts in theorizing motivation that a CH perspective would offer. Empirically, I and colleagues have critiqued the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy for its inability to account for striking motivational differences in young children?s helpfulness across cultural communities. At ages as young as 2, we?ve found that toddlers from a US Mexican-heritage background voluntarily help around the house more often and with more sophistication than do middle-class European American toddlers ? a difference that seems to increase with age. A theory of motivation focused on innate and universal drives isn?t helpful in accounting for these differences. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a phrase I like ? ?inherent? motivation, as in motivation that is inherent to taking part in shared cultural activity ? that captures the essence of a CH perspective on motivation. US Mexican-heritage toddlers? deep inclusion in family and community activities, I believe, sets the developmental foundation for this inherent motivation to help voluntarily. I?m attaching her paper (it?s in Spanish). Finally, in the early 1970s an interesting explanation by Mark Lepper of the undermining quality of extrinsic incentives (which Deci was among the first to write about in American psychology) on young children?s motivation was that such rewards ?over-justified? their actions ? they were being incentivized to do things they already wanted to do. CHAT perspectives on object/motive offer, I think, more explanatory power: the apparent reduction in motivation may have also been a shift in the object/motive that organized the young children?s actions. The children in Deci?s early studies may have been motivated, inherently, in a variety of different activities with different motives. (I?m happy to share more references if any of this is helpful.) / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens From: > on behalf of David H Kirshner > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 11:03 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/4583e1c1/attachment.html From larabeaty@gmail.com Sun Aug 25 10:33:27 2019 From: larabeaty@gmail.com (Lara Beaty) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 13:33:27 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> Message-ID: <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> Hi All. Motivation was in some ways my introduction to psychology at 18, and I spent a lot of time exploring ideas about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, self-efficacy, self-determination, and then the long list of motives (power, intimacy, affiliation, etc.) that have been studied, which is when I realized that the effort to isolate every motive without reference to the context wasn?t getting us anywhere. There was an early paper by White who developed the idea of effectance motivation that intrigued me most: the idea of just wanting to be effective ? to be alive by impacting the world in some way. My advisor Joe Glick helped me with a book by D?Andrade and Strauss, which helped me move the ideas past individualistic concepts, but Joe also used to describe Piaget?s theory as containing the idea ?if you?ve got it, flaunt it.? In essence, I think life is to boring if we do nothing, and if you want to call that innate, then so be it. I often worry that the idea of object leads us to lose that idea of doing something for intrinsic reasons or simply to be effective, and I think Lois Holzman and others have focused on this in terms of play. It?s an unresolved question for me, but I like to think of it as dialectical: Intrinsic and extrinsic motivation are mutually defining and inseparable and contextualized. When I?m teaching community college students, however, the simplicity of the terms is a useful tool for helping students think about why they are in college, given that most of them have never been exposed in any significant way to the idea of doing college for the simple purpose of knowing more and creating possibilities for new ways of thinking. I keep hoping to help them find some joy in learning and development. Best, Lara > On Aug 25, 2019, at 12:32 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > Hi all, > > The earliest I have read about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation (the earliest is was mentioned) was, as with so much else in John Dewey ? Democracy and Education. It may have been mentioned earlier and it was probably an idea floating around. I would be it came up at some of the salons at Jane Addams place. The general distinction (I don?t think dichotomy is the correct word here) is that the extrinsic reward is something that an agent is offering an individual (in Dewey?s case a child) to get them to do something. Dewey?s criticism is ? for lack of a better word ? pragmatic. Extrinsic rewards tend to fade or disappear. If somebody it paying you to do something and the reason you are doing it is because they are paying you, then you stop doing it when you stop getting paid. There is nothing inherently bad in this but it is not what Dewey might call vital experience, it doesn?t change the way you approach the world, has not impact on lifelong learning. However if you are doing something because you want to do it, without an outside agent or the outside agent is superfluous then there is a greater chance you will keep doing. The action is not dependent on anybody else. So Andy I think your example or somebody attending a political meeting because they enjoy is actually intrinsic motivation while somebody attending a meeting because they want to get things done is extrinsic, in other words they will stop attending if they don?t think things will get done (something like this has been defined as political efficacy). If I read this wrong I apologize. > > The reason I think it might be unwise to consider it a dichotomy is because of the way the two have been define since Bandura. It is more of a process. You need to start with extrinsic motivation but through a process of feedback (yes, Bandrua like cybernetics) and positive reinforcement through success it slowly becomes intrinsic. It is one of the fundamental tenets of socio-cognitive theory. > > I have no idea why socio-culturalists do not like this, it seems to fit pretty well, but I am interested to here. > > As for Deci and Ryan?s self-determination theory I don?t really think of intrinsic motivation as innate (do they say that). It is more emergent. You have to have the right circumstances, which include autonomy, relatedness, and competence and this perfect storm leads to intrinsic motivation. But it is difficult to attain without it. Can you call that innate? > > Michael > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:53 AM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > Artin, is there any chance that your 'trouble' can be expressed in a paragraph here? > > Andrew, I also suspect that the making of the distinction into a dichotomy, a behaviourist interpretation of the distinction and an ahistorical understanding of the idea may cause others to reject it, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. > > > > We have politicians in this country, and I do believe that some of them participate in the practice of politics for the purpose of furthering and even perfecting that practice, maybe only a few, but some. But I am sure that there are some who in there for other purposes, mostly enrichment and/or fame. True, it is not a dichotomy; some who are there in order to advance political practice also enjoy the game and the fame in can bring. But to collapse the two would be madness. The practice of politics has an object which is not self-enrichment. Individual motivation must be judged against that concept of politics. > > A while ago I was giving a talk on my book "Origins of Collective Decision Making," explaining the ethical and instrumental differences between Consensus and Majority, and a young anarchist said she enjoyedconsensus much more than majority decision making. That there could be reason for choosing one mode of action rather than another other the pleasure derived had not occurred to her. I was, I admit, a bit shocked. This case brings out the subtlety of the distinction. Acting in political meetings for the sheer pleasure of doing it is actually an extrinsic motive, whereas acting in meetings to produce good decisions impliesintrinsic motivation. But superficially, it seems to be the other way around. > > In a certain context, e.g. playing tennis, doing it for the pleasure of doing it counts as an intrinsic motivation, and when you become a profession and maybe then start playing for the prize money and adulation, rather than in the perfection of the game, then that is extrinsic motivation. It depends on whether tennis is taken as a game or a sport, professional or otherwise. > > But maybe it is just the difficulty in making a nice clear dichotomy which sets people against the distinction? > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 26/08/2019 12:34 am, Coppens, Andrew wrote: > I don?t know much about a characteristically CHAT objection to the distinction but, to my mind, the main problem is in how intrinsic motivation is characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that extrinsic motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., not just a distinction but a dichotomy). These two features of the theory create many problems regarding what I need a theory of motivation to help explain. > > My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, but there are a number of reasons I can imagine being OK with that. > > / Andrew > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > Caution - External Email > For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. > > What is the problem? > > Andy > > Andy Blunden > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: > I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): > ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). > > This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. > > Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? > Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? > > David > > Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 > > Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty Professor of Psychology Psychology Program Co-Director SERG Director Social Science Department LaGuardia Community College, CUNY 718-482-5796 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/637a8dbd/attachment.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sun Aug 25 13:24:23 2019 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 20:24:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> Message-ID: The case of schooling is often the starting point for discussion of motivation, because it's of such practical concern there. When we take this setting as neutral, as Deci and Ryan do, then we are left with the happenstance of who "enjoys" the school activity in its own right, versus who has to be coerced in some way. This seems to me the most superficial level of analysis possible. There may be some sensations that are physically pleasurable, like eating and mating, but that's about it as far as that goes. Nobody's school curriculum consists of eating or mating, and everything beyond that is socioculturally mediated. The magic of Dewey's school was not that he managed to find activities that everyone found "inherently interesting or enjoyable." The magic was that through the culture of the school he was able to constitute a cultural setting through which kids came to see participation in school as consistent with their identity and life goals (no citation, here, because I'm speculating). Couching the intrinsic / extrinsic distinction at the level of what people happen to find "inherently interesting or enjoyable" seems to me to rob it of its potential psychological significance as well as its practical utility for education. What I want to say is that intrinsic motivation is the motivation associated with identity and life goals, and that extrinsic motivation is everything else (excepting, perhaps, immediate gratification of physical pleasures). Does that make any sense? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:32 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Hi all, The earliest I have read about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation (the earliest is was mentioned) was, as with so much else in John Dewey - Democracy and Education. It may have been mentioned earlier and it was probably an idea floating around. I would be it came up at some of the salons at Jane Addams place. The general distinction (I don't think dichotomy is the correct word here) is that the extrinsic reward is something that an agent is offering an individual (in Dewey's case a child) to get them to do something. Dewey's criticism is - for lack of a better word - pragmatic. Extrinsic rewards tend to fade or disappear. If somebody it paying you to do something and the reason you are doing it is because they are paying you, then you stop doing it when you stop getting paid. There is nothing inherently bad in this but it is not what Dewey might call vital experience, it doesn't change the way you approach the world, has not impact on lifelong learning. However if you are doing something because you want to do it, without an outside agent or the outside agent is superfluous then there is a greater chance you will keep doing. The action is not dependent on anybody else. So Andy I think your example or somebody attending a political meeting because they enjoy is actually intrinsic motivation while somebody attending a meeting because they want to get things done is extrinsic, in other words they will stop attending if they don't think things will get done (something like this has been defined as political efficacy). If I read this wrong I apologize. The reason I think it might be unwise to consider it a dichotomy is because of the way the two have been define since Bandura. It is more of a process. You need to start with extrinsic motivation but through a process of feedback (yes, Bandrua like cybernetics) and positive reinforcement through success it slowly becomes intrinsic. It is one of the fundamental tenets of socio-cognitive theory. I have no idea why socio-culturalists do not like this, it seems to fit pretty well, but I am interested to here. As for Deci and Ryan's self-determination theory I don't really think of intrinsic motivation as innate (do they say that). It is more emergent. You have to have the right circumstances, which include autonomy, relatedness, and competence and this perfect storm leads to intrinsic motivation. But it is difficult to attain without it. Can you call that innate? Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:53 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Artin, is there any chance that your 'trouble' can be expressed in a paragraph here? Andrew, I also suspect that the making of the distinction into a dichotomy, a behaviourist interpretation of the distinction and an ahistorical understanding of the idea may cause others to reject it, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We have politicians in this country, and I do believe that some of them participate in the practice of politics for the purpose of furthering and even perfecting that practice, maybe only a few, but some. But I am sure that there are some who in there for other purposes, mostly enrichment and/or fame. True, it is not a dichotomy; some who are there in order to advance political practice also enjoy the game and the fame in can bring. But to collapse the two would be madness. The practice of politics has an object which is not self-enrichment. Individual motivation must be judged against that concept of politics. A while ago I was giving a talk on my book "Origins of Collective Decision Making," explaining the ethical and instrumental differences between Consensus and Majority, and a young anarchist said she enjoyed consensus much more than majority decision making. That there could be reason for choosing one mode of action rather than another other the pleasure derived had not occurred to her. I was, I admit, a bit shocked. This case brings out the subtlety of the distinction. Acting in political meetings for the sheer pleasure of doing it is actually an extrinsic motive, whereas acting in meetings to produce good decisions implies intrinsic motivation. But superficially, it seems to be the other way around. In a certain context, e.g. playing tennis, doing it for the pleasure of doing it counts as an intrinsic motivation, and when you become a profession and maybe then start playing for the prize money and adulation, rather than in the perfection of the game, then that is extrinsic motivation. It depends on whether tennis is taken as a game or a sport, professional or otherwise. But maybe it is just the difficulty in making a nice clear dichotomy which sets people against the distinction? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 12:34 am, Coppens, Andrew wrote: I don't know much about a characteristically CHAT objection to the distinction but, to my mind, the main problem is in how intrinsic motivation is characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that extrinsic motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., not just a distinction but a dichotomy). These two features of the theory create many problems regarding what I need a theory of motivation to help explain. My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, but there are a number of reasons I can imagine being OK with that. / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Caution - External Email ________________________________ For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. What is the problem? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: I'm reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): "The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]" (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54-67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/df8c7ee5/attachment.html From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Aug 25 15:27:28 2019 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 07:27:28 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> Message-ID: Wagner--Thanks for getting things straight. I was particularly interested in your in-laws. We often think of families and in-laws as thoroughly pre-capitalist institutions that have little to contribute to Politics with a capital "P" and Culture with a capital "C", but the story of the AIDS epidemic and the subsequent normalization of gay marriage is probably better understood as a story of molecular changes on the part of touched families and stricken in-laws than as an unmotivated but mysteriously almost simultanteous change of heart on the part of politicians or some Gog vs. MaGog battle in the culture wars. Isn't your distinction between small farmers who are interested in land for the same reason that they are interested in living on the one hand and large agrobusiness who are interested in land only and only in so far as it impacts trade one example of intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation? And isn't that distinction in turn simply an example of more/less mediated motivation? That said, the distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation has a lot to answer for in studies of foreign language learning. Lambert and Gardner (in Quebec) made a fatuous distinction between learning a language to get a promotion at work and learning a language to integrate into society, and the questionnaires they developed dominated work in foreign language learning motivation for a whole generation. Even studies of why and how toddlers in Seoul are learning English had to begin with a recitation of the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, and how it had been operationalized in the work of Lambert and Gardner. Gardner himself said later he found out you could really discover a lot more about the language learning motivation of immigrants to Quebec with a bottle of wine.... David Kellogg Sangmyung University New Article: Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF: Vygotsky?s pedology, Bruner?s constructivism and Halliday?s construalism in understanding narratives by Korean children, Language and Education, DOI: 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 Some e-prints available at: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663 On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 5:26 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > The case of schooling is often the starting point for discussion of > motivation, because it?s of such practical concern there. > > When we take this setting as neutral, as Deci and Ryan do, then we are > left with the happenstance of who ?enjoys? the school activity in its own > right, versus who has to be coerced in some way. > > This seems to me the most superficial level of analysis possible. > > There may be some sensations that are physically pleasurable, like eating > and mating, but that?s about it as far as that goes. > > Nobody?s school curriculum consists of eating or mating, and everything > beyond that is socioculturally mediated. > > > > The magic of Dewey?s school was not that he managed to find activities > that everyone found ?inherently interesting or enjoyable.? The magic was > that through the culture of the school he was able to constitute a cultural > setting through which kids came to see participation in school as > consistent with their identity and life goals (no citation, here, because > I?m speculating). > > Couching the intrinsic / extrinsic distinction at the level of what people > happen to find ?inherently interesting or enjoyable? seems to me to rob it > of its potential psychological significance as well as its practical > utility for education. > > What I want to say is that intrinsic motivation is the motivation > associated with identity and life goals, and that extrinsic motivation is > everything else (excepting, perhaps, immediate gratification of physical > pleasures). > > > > Does that make any sense? > > > > David > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Glassman, Michael > *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:32 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > > > Hi all, > > > > The earliest I have read about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation (the > earliest is was mentioned) was, as with so much else in John Dewey ? > Democracy and Education. It may have been mentioned earlier and it was > probably an idea floating around. I would be it came up at some of the > salons at Jane Addams place. The general distinction (I don?t think > dichotomy is the correct word here) is that the extrinsic reward is > something that an agent is offering an individual (in Dewey?s case a child) > to get them to do something. Dewey?s criticism is ? for lack of a better > word ? pragmatic. Extrinsic rewards tend to fade or disappear. If somebody > it paying you to do something and the reason you are doing it is because > they are paying you, then you stop doing it when you stop getting paid. > There is nothing inherently bad in this but it is not what Dewey might call > vital experience, it doesn?t change the way you approach the world, has not > impact on lifelong learning. However if you are doing something because you > want to do it, without an outside agent or the outside agent is superfluous > then there is a greater chance you will keep doing. The action is not > dependent on anybody else. So Andy I think your example or somebody > attending a political meeting because they enjoy is actually intrinsic > motivation while somebody attending a meeting because they want to get > things done is extrinsic, in other words they will stop attending if they > don?t think things will get done (something like this has been defined as > political efficacy). If I read this wrong I apologize. > > > > The reason I think it might be unwise to consider it a dichotomy is > because of the way the two have been define since Bandura. It is more of a > process. You need to start with extrinsic motivation but through a process > of feedback (yes, Bandrua like cybernetics) and positive reinforcement > through success it slowly becomes intrinsic. It is one of the fundamental > tenets of socio-cognitive theory. > > > > I have no idea why socio-culturalists do not like this, it seems to fit > pretty well, but I am interested to here. > > > > As for Deci and Ryan?s self-determination theory I don?t really think of > intrinsic motivation as innate (do they say that). It is more emergent. > You have to have the right circumstances, which include autonomy, > relatedness, and competence and this perfect storm leads to intrinsic > motivation. But it is difficult to attain without it. Can you call that > innate? > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:53 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > > > Artin, is there any chance that your 'trouble' can be expressed in a > paragraph here? > > Andrew, I also suspect that the making of the distinction into a > dichotomy, a behaviourist interpretation of the distinction and an > ahistorical understanding of the idea may cause others to reject it, > throwing the baby out with the bathwater. > > > > We have politicians in this country, and I do believe that some of them > participate in the practice of politics for the purpose of furthering and > even perfecting that practice, maybe only a few, but some. But I am sure > that there are some who in there for other purposes, mostly enrichment > and/or fame. True, it is not a dichotomy; some who are there in order to > advance political practice also enjoy the game and the fame in can bring. > But to collapse the two would be madness. The practice of politics has an > object which is not self-enrichment. Individual motivation must be judged > against that concept of politics. > > A while ago I was giving a talk on my book "Origins of Collective Decision > Making," explaining the ethical and instrumental differences between > Consensus and Majority, and a young anarchist said she *enjoyed* > consensus much more than majority decision making. That there could be > reason for choosing one mode of action rather than another other the > pleasure derived had not occurred to her. I was, I admit, a bit shocked. > This case brings out the subtlety of the distinction. Acting in political > meetings for the sheer pleasure of doing it is actually an *extrinsic* > motive, whereas acting in meetings to produce good decisions implies > *intrinsic* motivation. But superficially, it seems to be the other way > around. > > In a certain context, e.g. playing tennis, doing it for the pleasure of > doing it counts as an intrinsic motivation, and when you become a > profession and maybe then start playing for the prize money and adulation*, > *rather than in the perfection of the game, then that is extrinsic > motivation. It depends on whether tennis is taken as a game or a sport, > professional or otherwise. > > But maybe it is just the difficulty in making a nice clear dichotomy which > sets people against the distinction? > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > On 26/08/2019 12:34 am, Coppens, Andrew wrote: > > I don?t know much about a characteristically CHAT objection to the > distinction but, to my mind, the main problem is in how intrinsic > motivation is characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that > extrinsic motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., not just a > distinction but a dichotomy). These two features of the theory create many > problems regarding what I need a theory of motivation to help explain. > > > > My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, but there are a > number of reasons I can imagine being OK with that. > > > > / Andrew > > > > --- > > Andrew D. Coppens > > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens > > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens > ------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > > > *Caution - External Email* > ------------------------------ > > For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be > set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N > Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in > my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of > motivation that lacked this distinction. > > What is the problem? > > Andy > ------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: > > I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic > motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): > > ?The most basic distinction is between *intrinsic motivation*, which > refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or > enjoyable, and *extrinsic motivation*, which refers to doing something > because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental > reasons]? (p. 55). > > > > This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most > pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or > intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to > individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life > histories. > > > > Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in > sociocultural theory? > > Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the > intrinsic / extrinsic construct? > > > > David > > > > Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: > Classic definitions and new directions. *Contemporary Educational > Psychology, 25*, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190826/743ccb87/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 25 15:48:14 2019 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:48:14 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <301044893.1194653.1566736027959@mymail.optimum.net> <08EDB737-D70C-4AD4-82D1-6D5ADDED7C20@unm.edu> Message-ID: David, Ive twice read this quote that you have mentioned: ?Given that many of the educational activities prescribed in schools are not designed to be intrinsically interesting, a central question concerns how to motivate students to value and self-regulate such activities, and without external pressure, to carry them out on their own.? And both times I can?t help but ask: if educational activities are not inherently interesting then why are insisting that children cultivate an intrinsic motivation to pursue them? Seems like this is the opposite of what Dewey was suggesting education should be. (And I?m also reminded of the article Alienated Learning). It seems like a Foucaultuan analysis would be a very good SCT way to approach this intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy and how it has been taken up (and perhaps this is really about the uptake of the dichotomy, perhaps it could be used in other ways? Perhaps it is what Marx was after in the very idea of alienated labor?). The way that this dichotomy has been taken up seems like it is a part of the transformation of the management of individuals that Foucault describes in Discipline and Punish and in which punishment goes from the grand displays of the state (eg Damiens being drawn and quartered) and is transformed into the quiet ?remedial? training of the prison and other management techniques producing docile bodies. Intrinsic motivation seems to be part of a project to produce ?docile bodies? that can learn not just to engage in but to want to engage in alienated labor. Too far? Greg On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 11:21 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > Thanks, David. > > > > I will look at Reeve?s et al. as you suggest, but I?m not too encouraged > by Ryan and Deci (2000), that I cited earlier. > > They do reference sociocultural constructs like internalization and > notions of identity: > > > > Given that many of the educational activities prescribed in schools are > not designed to be intrinsically interesting, a central question concerns > how to motivate students to value and self-regulate such activities, and > without external pressure, to carry them out on their own. This problem is > described within SDT in terms of fostering the *internalization and > integration *of values and behavioral regulations (Deci & Ryan, 1985). > Internalization is the process of taking in a value or regulation, and > integration is the process by which individuals more fully transform the > regulation into their own so that it will emanate from their sense of self. > (p. 60) > > > > But their underlying explanatory framework provides no room for any > constructs that extend beyond the individual, so the basis for what comes > to be identified as motivational is simply generalization of what has been > observed to be motivational in practice: > > > > *Cognitive Evaluation Theory *(CET) was presented by Deci and Ryan (1985) > to specify the factors in social contexts that produce variability in > intrinsic motivation. CET, which is considered a subtheory of > self-determination theory, argues that interpersonal events and structures > (e.g., rewards, communications, feedback) that conduce toward *feelings > of competence *during action can enhance intrinsic motivation for that > action because they allow satisfaction of the basic psychological need for > competence. Accordingly, > > for example, optimal challenges, effectance promoting feedback, and > freedom from demeaning evaluations are all predicted to facilitate > intrinsic motivation. CET further specifies that feelings of competence > will *not *enhance intrinsic motivation unless they are accompanied by *a > sense of autonomy *or, in attributional terms, by an *internal perceived > locus of causality *(IPLOC; de- Charms, 1968). Thus, people must not only > experience perceived competence (or self-efficacy), they must also > experience their behavior to be self-determined if intrinsic motivation is > to be maintained or enhanced. (p. 58) > > > > Yes, as socioculturalists we can build a story of how and why > self-efficacy and autonomy come to be part of a developmental trajectory of > becoming (for some students), but Ryan and Deci can?t. For them, this is > just empirical generalization, and their claim to having a predictive > theory is just posturing. The weakness comes from their basic definition I > quoted earlier that talks of some things being ?inherently interesting or > enjoyable? and hence intrinsically motivating. But ?inherent? and > ?intrinsic? are mere synonyms, there is no content to this definition > beyond what empirically has proven to be ?inherently interesting or > enjoyable.? > > > > David > > PS. Appreciate the many replies so far, and am working my way through them. > > > > > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu *On > Behalf Of *David Atencio > *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:03 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity ; > Coppens, Andrew > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > > > David, I encourage you to read more work from the self determination lab > at Rochester. You can access much of their work by registering as a > member. In particular, I recommend you take a look at Deci and Ryan?s > chapter in Dennis McInerney and Shawn Van Etten?s edited book ?Big Theories > Revisited? > > Reeve, J. M., Deci, E. L, & Ryan, R. M. (2004). Self-determination > theory: A dialectical framework for understanding sociocultural influences > on student motivation. > > > > I understand their Organisimic Integration Theory to be quite consistent > with Vygotsky?s general law of cultural development. This is their unique > account of how extrinsic motivation can develop into self-determination > through the same inter psychological ? intra psychological transformational > process Vygotsky spoke about. > > > > David J. Atencio, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor, > > Family & Child Studies Program > > Department of Individual, Family, & Community Education > > College of Education MFC 05-3040 > > 1University of New Mexico > > Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131 > > (505) 277-3757 > > > https://coe.unm.edu/departments-programs/ifce/family-child-studies/faculty.html > > > > > > > > > *From: * on behalf of rips < > arips@optonline.net> > *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 6:29 AM > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" , > "Coppens, Andrew" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > > > That's correct about the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy mostly being > approached as an individual manner. Deci and Ryan do research intrinsic > motivation in groups for example fitness motivation with technology. > > Hi David, > > I agree; from a sociocultural account there are many problems with the > intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. > > One problem has to do with the ?origin? of motivation. Self-Determination > Theory (SDT) claims intrinsic motivation is innate. From a theoretical > perspective, in Psychology, this innate needs and drives perspective has > been replaced by cognitive perspectives such as goal theories (e.g., > Eccles, Dweck). Here, the origin of motivation changes to cognitions but > the individualistic perspective remains. > > The next problem with the dichotomy is that it contrasts ? indeed opposes > ? the individual and the social and argues that intrinsic motivation is an > individual phenomenon. There are many critiques of this aspect, and the > field of educational psychology has a number of examples where motivation > is conceived as much more social. Although social cognitive theories are > now more popular in psychological research, the internal location of > self-regulatory mechanisms that contrast with external ?forces? is also > central to many of those theories. The need to theorize an > ?internalization? mechanism in SDT reflects this individual/social division. > > Cultural-historical critiques address both of these problems in > *historicizing* motivation as a social and cultural phenomenon. Mariane > Hedegaard, Marilyn Fleer, Richard Walker, Dan Hickey, and others have > written on this. Not referring to these authors necessarily, > ?sociocultural? perspectives on motivation more generally tend to focus on > the social and secondarily the historical shifts in theorizing motivation > that a CH perspective would offer. > > Empirically, I and colleagues have critiqued the intrinsic/extrinsic > dichotomy for its inability to account for striking motivational > differences in young children?s helpfulness across cultural communities. At > ages as young as 2, we?ve found that toddlers from a US Mexican-heritage > background voluntarily help around the house more often and with more > sophistication than do middle-class European American toddlers ? a > difference that seems to increase with age. A theory of motivation focused > on innate and universal drives isn?t helpful in accounting for these > differences. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a phrase I like ? ?inherent? > motivation, as in motivation that is inherent to taking part in shared > cultural activity ? that captures the essence of a CH perspective on > motivation. US Mexican-heritage toddlers? deep inclusion in family and > community activities, I believe, sets the developmental foundation for this > *inherent* motivation to help voluntarily. I?m attaching her paper (it?s > in Spanish). > > Finally, in the early 1970s an interesting explanation by Mark Lepper of > the undermining quality of extrinsic incentives (which Deci was among the > first to write about in American psychology) on young children?s motivation > was that such rewards ?over-justified? their actions ? they were being > incentivized to do things they already wanted to do. CHAT perspectives on > object/motive offer, I think, more explanatory power: the apparent > reduction in motivation may have also been a shift in the object/motive > that organized the young children?s actions. The children in Deci?s early > studies may have been motivated, inherently, in a variety of different > activities with different motives. > > (I?m happy to share more references if any of this is helpful.) > > / Andrew > > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens > > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens > > > > > *From: * on behalf of David H Kirshner < > dkirsh@lsu.edu> > *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Date: *Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 11:03 PM > *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic > motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): > > ?The most basic distinction is between *intrinsic motivation*, which > refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or > enjoyable, and *extrinsic motivation*, which refers to doing something > because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental > reasons]? (p. 55). > > This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most > pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or > intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to > individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life > histories. > > Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in > sociocultural theory? > > Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the > intrinsic / extrinsic construct? > > David > > Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: > Classic definitions and new directions. *Contemporary Educational > Psychology, 25*, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/35285223/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sun Aug 25 15:53:34 2019 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 08:53:34 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> Message-ID: <2af9f298-a494-d387-5a67-535b2ec14923@marxists.org> Every rational action is done for a purpose. This is the distinction between goal and motive in A N Leontyev and between Purpose and Intention in Hegel, between action and concept in Vygotsky. This distinction goes back to Aristotle. Where this distinction is absent we do no have human life. The distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic is a different one. In Hegel it is the distinction between Intention and Welfare, in A N Leontyev between the really understood motive and the really effective motive. The alienated wage worker turns up at work only in order to earn a wage. Unless "work" is a government make-work program or prison labour, this is an extrinsic motivation. To say that attending a political meeting because you enjoy meetings is an /intrinsic/ motivation is to reduce modern social life to pure hedonism. Like the old argument that altruism is a logical impossibility, because if you do something to help someone that is only because you get pleasure from helping someone. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 2:32 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > Hi all, > > The earliest I have read about extrinsic and intrinsic > motivation (the earliest is was mentioned) was, as with so > much else in John Dewey ? Democracy and Education.? It may > have been mentioned earlier and it was probably an idea > floating around. I would be it came up at some of the > salons at Jane Addams place. The general distinction (I > don?t think dichotomy is the correct word here) is that > the extrinsic reward is something that an agent is > offering an individual (in Dewey?s case a child) to get > them to do something. Dewey?s criticism is ? for lack of a > better word ? pragmatic.? Extrinsic rewards tend to fade > or disappear. If somebody it paying you to do something > and the reason you are doing it is because they are paying > you, then you stop doing it when you stop getting paid. > There is nothing inherently bad in this but it is not what > Dewey might call vital experience, it doesn?t change the > way you approach the world, has not impact on lifelong > learning. However if you are doing something because you > want to do it, without an outside agent or the outside > agent is superfluous then there is a greater chance you > will keep doing. The action is not dependent on anybody > else. So Andy I think your example or somebody attending a > political meeting because they enjoy is actually intrinsic > motivation while somebody attending a meeting because they > want to get things done is extrinsic, in other words they > will stop attending if they don?t think things will get > done (something like this has been defined as political > efficacy). If I read this wrong I apologize. > > The reason I think it might be unwise to consider it a > dichotomy is because of the way the two have been define > since Bandura. It is more of a process. You need to start > with extrinsic motivation but through a process of > feedback (yes, Bandrua like cybernetics) and positive > reinforcement through success it slowly becomes intrinsic. > It is one of the fundamental tenets of socio-cognitive theory. > > I have no idea why socio-culturalists do not like this, it > seems to fit pretty well, but I am interested to here. > > As for Deci and Ryan?s self-determination theory I don?t > really think of intrinsic motivation as innate (do they > say that).? It is more emergent.? You have to have the > right circumstances, which include autonomy, relatedness, > and competence and this perfect storm leads to intrinsic > motivation. But it is difficult to attain without it. Can > you call that innate? > > Michael > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:53 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > Artin, is there any chance that your 'trouble' can be > expressed in a paragraph here? > > Andrew, I also suspect that the making of the distinction > into a dichotomy, a behaviourist interpretation of the > distinction and an ahistorical understanding of the idea > may cause others to reject it, throwing the baby out with > the bathwater. > > We have politicians in this country, and I do believe that > some of them participate in the practice of politics for > the purpose of furthering and even perfecting that > practice, maybe only a few, but some. But I am sure that > there are some who in there for other purposes, mostly > enrichment and/or fame. True, it is not a dichotomy; some > who are there in order to advance political practice also > enjoy the game and the fame in can bring. But to collapse > the two would be madness. The practice of politics has an > object which is not self-enrichment. Individual motivation > must be judged against that concept of politics. > > A while ago I was giving a talk on my book "Origins of > Collective Decision Making," explaining the ethical and > instrumental differences between Consensus and Majority, > and a young anarchist said she /enjoyed/ consensus much > more than majority decision making. That there could be > reason for choosing one mode of action rather than another > other the pleasure derived had not occurred to her. I was, > I admit, a bit shocked. This case brings out the subtlety > of the distinction. Acting in political meetings for the > sheer pleasure of doing it is actually an /extrinsic/ > motive, whereas acting in meetings to produce good > decisions implies /intrinsic/ motivation. But > superficially, it seems to be the other way around. > > In a certain context, e.g. playing tennis, doing it for > the pleasure of doing it counts as an intrinsic > motivation, and when you become a profession and maybe > then start playing for the prize money and adulation/, > /rather than in the perfection of the game, then that is > extrinsic motivation. It depends on whether tennis is > taken as a game or a sport, professional or otherwise. > > But maybe it is just the difficulty in making a nice clear > dichotomy which sets people against the distinction? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > On 26/08/2019 12:34 am, Coppens, Andrew wrote: > > I don?t know much about a characteristically CHAT > objection to the distinction but, to my mind, the main > problem is in how intrinsic motivation is > characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that > extrinsic motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., > not just a distinction but a dichotomy). These two > features of the theory create many problems regarding > what I need a theory of motivation to help explain. > > My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, > but there are a number of reasons I can imagine being > OK with that. > > / Andrew > > --- > > Andrew D. Coppens > > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens > > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of > Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > *Caution - External Email* > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For some reason which I have never understood many > CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. > And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's > Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses > it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I > cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this > distinction. > > What is the problem? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: > > I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of > intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by > authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): > > ?The most basic distinction is between /intrinsic > motivation/, which refers to doing something > because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, > and /extrinsic motivation/, which refers to doing > something because it leads to a separable outcome > [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). > > This seems to me an impoverished account for a > variety of reasons, most pressingly because it > attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or > intrinsically motivating as inherent to the > organism, without respect to individuals as > people, engaged in socioculturally constituted > life histories. > > Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic > motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? > > Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a > sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / > extrinsic construct? > > David > > Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and > extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new > directions. /Contemporary Educational Psychology, > 25/, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190826/a0dbfe84/attachment.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sun Aug 25 16:48:39 2019 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 23:48:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <301044893.1194653.1566736027959@mymail.optimum.net> <08EDB737-D70C-4AD4-82D1-6D5ADDED7C20@unm.edu> Message-ID: Not too far for me, Greg. Deci and Ryan talk about ?internalization and integration of values,? and I respect that their values push them toward some deeper sense of personhood. But when your only theoretical tools are what catches the interest of the student, all you can do with that is coerce compliance. David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 5:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation David, Ive twice read this quote that you have mentioned: ?Given that many of the educational activities prescribed in schools are not designed to be intrinsically interesting, a central question concerns how to motivate students to value and self-regulate such activities, and without external pressure, to carry them out on their own.? And both times I can?t help but ask: if educational activities are not inherently interesting then why are insisting that children cultivate an intrinsic motivation to pursue them? Seems like this is the opposite of what Dewey was suggesting education should be. (And I?m also reminded of the article Alienated Learning). It seems like a Foucaultuan analysis would be a very good SCT way to approach this intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy and how it has been taken up (and perhaps this is really about the uptake of the dichotomy, perhaps it could be used in other ways? Perhaps it is what Marx was after in the very idea of alienated labor?). The way that this dichotomy has been taken up seems like it is a part of the transformation of the management of individuals that Foucault describes in Discipline and Punish and in which punishment goes from the grand displays of the state (eg Damiens being drawn and quartered) and is transformed into the quiet ?remedial? training of the prison and other management techniques producing docile bodies. Intrinsic motivation seems to be part of a project to produce ?docile bodies? that can learn not just to engage in but to want to engage in alienated labor. Too far? Greg On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 11:21 AM David H Kirshner > wrote: Thanks, David. I will look at Reeve?s et al. as you suggest, but I?m not too encouraged by Ryan and Deci (2000), that I cited earlier. They do reference sociocultural constructs like internalization and notions of identity: Given that many of the educational activities prescribed in schools are not designed to be intrinsically interesting, a central question concerns how to motivate students to value and self-regulate such activities, and without external pressure, to carry them out on their own. This problem is described within SDT in terms of fostering the internalization and integration of values and behavioral regulations (Deci & Ryan, 1985). Internalization is the process of taking in a value or regulation, and integration is the process by which individuals more fully transform the regulation into their own so that it will emanate from their sense of self. (p. 60) But their underlying explanatory framework provides no room for any constructs that extend beyond the individual, so the basis for what comes to be identified as motivational is simply generalization of what has been observed to be motivational in practice: Cognitive Evaluation Theory (CET) was presented by Deci and Ryan (1985) to specify the factors in social contexts that produce variability in intrinsic motivation. CET, which is considered a subtheory of self-determination theory, argues that interpersonal events and structures (e.g., rewards, communications, feedback) that conduce toward feelings of competence during action can enhance intrinsic motivation for that action because they allow satisfaction of the basic psychological need for competence. Accordingly, for example, optimal challenges, effectance promoting feedback, and freedom from demeaning evaluations are all predicted to facilitate intrinsic motivation. CET further specifies that feelings of competence will not enhance intrinsic motivation unless they are accompanied by a sense of autonomy or, in attributional terms, by an internal perceived locus of causality (IPLOC; de- Charms, 1968). Thus, people must not only experience perceived competence (or self-efficacy), they must also experience their behavior to be self-determined if intrinsic motivation is to be maintained or enhanced. (p. 58) Yes, as socioculturalists we can build a story of how and why self-efficacy and autonomy come to be part of a developmental trajectory of becoming (for some students), but Ryan and Deci can?t. For them, this is just empirical generalization, and their claim to having a predictive theory is just posturing. The weakness comes from their basic definition I quoted earlier that talks of some things being ?inherently interesting or enjoyable? and hence intrinsically motivating. But ?inherent? and ?intrinsic? are mere synonyms, there is no content to this definition beyond what empirically has proven to be ?inherently interesting or enjoyable.? David PS. Appreciate the many replies so far, and am working my way through them. From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of David Atencio Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:03 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >; Coppens, Andrew > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation David, I encourage you to read more work from the self determination lab at Rochester. You can access much of their work by registering as a member. In particular, I recommend you take a look at Deci and Ryan?s chapter in Dennis McInerney and Shawn Van Etten?s edited book ?Big Theories Revisited? Reeve, J. M., Deci, E. L, & Ryan, R. M. (2004). Self-determination theory: A dialectical framework for understanding sociocultural influences on student motivation. I understand their Organisimic Integration Theory to be quite consistent with Vygotsky?s general law of cultural development. This is their unique account of how extrinsic motivation can develop into self-determination through the same inter psychological ? intra psychological transformational process Vygotsky spoke about. David J. Atencio, Ph.D. Associate Professor, Family & Child Studies Program Department of Individual, Family, & Community Education College of Education MFC 05-3040 1University of New Mexico Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131 (505) 277-3757 https://coe.unm.edu/departments-programs/ifce/family-child-studies/faculty.html From: > on behalf of rips > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 6:29 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >, "Coppens, Andrew" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation That's correct about the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy mostly being approached as an individual manner. Deci and Ryan do research intrinsic motivation in groups for example fitness motivation with technology. Hi David, I agree; from a sociocultural account there are many problems with the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. One problem has to do with the ?origin? of motivation. Self-Determination Theory (SDT) claims intrinsic motivation is innate. From a theoretical perspective, in Psychology, this innate needs and drives perspective has been replaced by cognitive perspectives such as goal theories (e.g., Eccles, Dweck). Here, the origin of motivation changes to cognitions but the individualistic perspective remains. The next problem with the dichotomy is that it contrasts ? indeed opposes ? the individual and the social and argues that intrinsic motivation is an individual phenomenon. There are many critiques of this aspect, and the field of educational psychology has a number of examples where motivation is conceived as much more social. Although social cognitive theories are now more popular in psychological research, the internal location of self-regulatory mechanisms that contrast with external ?forces? is also central to many of those theories. The need to theorize an ?internalization? mechanism in SDT reflects this individual/social division. Cultural-historical critiques address both of these problems in historicizing motivation as a social and cultural phenomenon. Mariane Hedegaard, Marilyn Fleer, Richard Walker, Dan Hickey, and others have written on this. Not referring to these authors necessarily, ?sociocultural? perspectives on motivation more generally tend to focus on the social and secondarily the historical shifts in theorizing motivation that a CH perspective would offer. Empirically, I and colleagues have critiqued the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy for its inability to account for striking motivational differences in young children?s helpfulness across cultural communities. At ages as young as 2, we?ve found that toddlers from a US Mexican-heritage background voluntarily help around the house more often and with more sophistication than do middle-class European American toddlers ? a difference that seems to increase with age. A theory of motivation focused on innate and universal drives isn?t helpful in accounting for these differences. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a phrase I like ? ?inherent? motivation, as in motivation that is inherent to taking part in shared cultural activity ? that captures the essence of a CH perspective on motivation. US Mexican-heritage toddlers? deep inclusion in family and community activities, I believe, sets the developmental foundation for this inherent motivation to help voluntarily. I?m attaching her paper (it?s in Spanish). Finally, in the early 1970s an interesting explanation by Mark Lepper of the undermining quality of extrinsic incentives (which Deci was among the first to write about in American psychology) on young children?s motivation was that such rewards ?over-justified? their actions ? they were being incentivized to do things they already wanted to do. CHAT perspectives on object/motive offer, I think, more explanatory power: the apparent reduction in motivation may have also been a shift in the object/motive that organized the young children?s actions. The children in Deci?s early studies may have been motivated, inherently, in a variety of different activities with different motives. (I?m happy to share more references if any of this is helpful.) / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens From: > on behalf of David H Kirshner > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 11:03 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190825/ef268fcf/attachment.html From goncu@uic.edu Sun Aug 25 19:14:10 2019 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 02:14:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: <2af9f298-a494-d387-5a67-535b2ec14923@marxists.org> References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <2af9f298-a494-d387-5a67-535b2ec14923@marxists.org> Message-ID: Andy, We argued that a sharp distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation proves to be fallacious in understanding the motivation for imaginative play. Instead, we maintained that motivation for play should be seen on a continuum between what is considered as "intrinsic" and "extrinsic" in this distinction. We used the following observations in constructing our argument: 1) On theoretical grounds, origins of imaginative play are non-play experiences of children with others. Therefore, conceptualizing motivation for play as only intrinsic ignores the social origins of play. Many theorists including Piaget, Freud, and Vygotsky illustrated this point; children pretend to master the past experience (Piaget), heal affective wounds (Freud), and resolve tensions emerging in the relationship with the environment (Vygotsky). 2) Research on peer interaction further supports this point that shared imaginative play emerges from negotiations of day-to-day social non-play experiences. 3) Many different lines of research show that adults actively engage in socializing children to the world of imaginative play, suggesting that the motivation for imaginative play exists in social interaction shaped by cultural expectations and resources. Examples of this can be easily seen in mother-infant play. 4) Finally, considering motivation for play solely as intrinsic is inconsistent with intervention efforts that aim to "improve" children's play and its outcomes. Best, ag Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor, Emeritus University of Illinois at Chicago www.artingoncu.com/ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 5:54 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Every rational action is done for a purpose. This is the distinction between goal and motive in A N Leontyev and between Purpose and Intention in Hegel, between action and concept in Vygotsky. This distinction goes back to Aristotle. Where this distinction is absent we do no have human life. The distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic is a different one. In Hegel it is the distinction between Intention and Welfare, in A N Leontyev between the really understood motive and the really effective motive. The alienated wage worker turns up at work only in order to earn a wage. Unless "work" is a government make-work program or prison labour, this is an extrinsic motivation. To say that attending a political meeting because you enjoy meetings is an intrinsic motivation is to reduce modern social life to pure hedonism. Like the old argument that altruism is a logical impossibility, because if you do something to help someone that is only because you get pleasure from helping someone. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 2:32 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: Hi all, The earliest I have read about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation (the earliest is was mentioned) was, as with so much else in John Dewey - Democracy and Education. It may have been mentioned earlier and it was probably an idea floating around. I would be it came up at some of the salons at Jane Addams place. The general distinction (I don't think dichotomy is the correct word here) is that the extrinsic reward is something that an agent is offering an individual (in Dewey's case a child) to get them to do something. Dewey's criticism is - for lack of a better word - pragmatic. Extrinsic rewards tend to fade or disappear. If somebody it paying you to do something and the reason you are doing it is because they are paying you, then you stop doing it when you stop getting paid. There is nothing inherently bad in this but it is not what Dewey might call vital experience, it doesn't change the way you approach the world, has not impact on lifelong learning. However if you are doing something because you want to do it, without an outside agent or the outside agent is superfluous then there is a greater chance you will keep doing. The action is not dependent on anybody else. So Andy I think your example or somebody attending a political meeting because they enjoy is actually intrinsic motivation while somebody attending a meeting because they want to get things done is extrinsic, in other words they will stop attending if they don't think things will get done (something like this has been defined as political efficacy). If I read this wrong I apologize. The reason I think it might be unwise to consider it a dichotomy is because of the way the two have been define since Bandura. It is more of a process. You need to start with extrinsic motivation but through a process of feedback (yes, Bandrua like cybernetics) and positive reinforcement through success it slowly becomes intrinsic. It is one of the fundamental tenets of socio-cognitive theory. I have no idea why socio-culturalists do not like this, it seems to fit pretty well, but I am interested to here. As for Deci and Ryan's self-determination theory I don't really think of intrinsic motivation as innate (do they say that). It is more emergent. You have to have the right circumstances, which include autonomy, relatedness, and competence and this perfect storm leads to intrinsic motivation. But it is difficult to attain without it. Can you call that innate? Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:53 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Artin, is there any chance that your 'trouble' can be expressed in a paragraph here? Andrew, I also suspect that the making of the distinction into a dichotomy, a behaviourist interpretation of the distinction and an ahistorical understanding of the idea may cause others to reject it, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We have politicians in this country, and I do believe that some of them participate in the practice of politics for the purpose of furthering and even perfecting that practice, maybe only a few, but some. But I am sure that there are some who in there for other purposes, mostly enrichment and/or fame. True, it is not a dichotomy; some who are there in order to advance political practice also enjoy the game and the fame in can bring. But to collapse the two would be madness. The practice of politics has an object which is not self-enrichment. Individual motivation must be judged against that concept of politics. A while ago I was giving a talk on my book "Origins of Collective Decision Making," explaining the ethical and instrumental differences between Consensus and Majority, and a young anarchist said she enjoyed consensus much more than majority decision making. That there could be reason for choosing one mode of action rather than another other the pleasure derived had not occurred to her. I was, I admit, a bit shocked. This case brings out the subtlety of the distinction. Acting in political meetings for the sheer pleasure of doing it is actually an extrinsic motive, whereas acting in meetings to produce good decisions implies intrinsic motivation. But superficially, it seems to be the other way around. In a certain context, e.g. playing tennis, doing it for the pleasure of doing it counts as an intrinsic motivation, and when you become a profession and maybe then start playing for the prize money and adulation, rather than in the perfection of the game, then that is extrinsic motivation. It depends on whether tennis is taken as a game or a sport, professional or otherwise. But maybe it is just the difficulty in making a nice clear dichotomy which sets people against the distinction? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 12:34 am, Coppens, Andrew wrote: I don't know much about a characteristically CHAT objection to the distinction but, to my mind, the main problem is in how intrinsic motivation is characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that extrinsic motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., not just a distinction but a dichotomy). These two features of the theory create many problems regarding what I need a theory of motivation to help explain. My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, but there are a number of reasons I can imagine being OK with that. / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Caution - External Email ________________________________ For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. What is the problem? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: I'm reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): "The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]" (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54-67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190826/57be0b13/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Sun Aug 25 19:32:48 2019 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 12:32:48 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <2af9f298-a494-d387-5a67-535b2ec14923@marxists.org> Message-ID: <3442ca6a-f691-b8fb-e631-870bd7fce33a@marxists.org> So you are saying, Artin, as I see it, that in children (who do not yet have a sense of the wider world and still think in pseudoconcepts or more primitive forms) the distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation is problematic. I agree. Because they are children. So the distinction is good. It is not a dichotomy. A clear distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation is a marker of adulthood. The anarchist who told me she enjoyed Consensus more than Majority was young and not yet fully mature. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 12:14 pm, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > Andy, > > We argued that a sharp distinction between intrinsic and > extrinsic motivation proves to be fallacious in > understanding the motivation for imaginative play.? > Instead, we maintained that motivation for play should be > seen on a continuum between what is considered as > ?intrinsic? and ?extrinsic? in this distinction.? We used > the following observations in constructing our argument: > 1) On theoretical grounds, origins of imaginative play are > non-play experiences of children with others.? Therefore, > conceptualizing motivation for play as only intrinsic > ignores the social origins of play.? Many theorists > including Piaget, Freud, and Vygotsky illustrated this > point; children pretend to master the past experience > (Piaget), heal affective wounds (Freud), and resolve > tensions emerging in the relationship with the environment > (Vygotsky).? 2) Research on peer interaction further > supports this point that shared imaginative play ?emerges > from negotiations of? day-to-day social non-play > experiences.?? 3) Many different lines of research show > that adults actively engage in socializing children to the > world of imaginative play, suggesting that the motivation > for imaginative play exists in social interaction shaped > by cultural expectations and resources.? Examples of this > can be easily seen in mother-infant play.? 4) Finally, > considering motivation for play solely as intrinsic is > inconsistent with intervention efforts that aim to > ?improve? children?s play and its outcomes. > > Best, ag > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > Professor, Emeritus > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > www.artingoncu.com/ > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2019 5:54 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > Every rational action is done for a purpose. This is the > distinction between goal and motive in A N Leontyev and > between Purpose and Intention in Hegel, between action and > concept in Vygotsky. This distinction goes back to > Aristotle.? Where this distinction is absent we do no have > human life. > > The distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic is a > different one. In Hegel it is the distinction between > Intention and Welfare, in A N Leontyev between the really > understood motive and the really effective motive. The > alienated wage worker turns up at work only in order to > earn a wage. Unless "work" is a government make-work > program or prison labour, this is an extrinsic motivation. > > To say that attending a political meeting because you > enjoy meetings is an /intrinsic/ motivation is to reduce > modern social life to pure hedonism. Like the old argument > that altruism is a logical impossibility, because if you > do something to help someone that is only because you get > pleasure from helping someone. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > On 26/08/2019 2:32 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > Hi all, > > The earliest I have read about extrinsic and intrinsic > motivation (the earliest is was mentioned) was, as > with so much else in John Dewey ? Democracy and > Education.? It may have been mentioned earlier and it > was probably an idea floating around. I would be it > came up at some of the salons at Jane Addams place. > The general distinction (I don?t think dichotomy is > the correct word here) is that the extrinsic reward is > something that an agent is offering an individual (in > Dewey?s case a child) to get them to do something. > Dewey?s criticism is ? for lack of a better word ? > pragmatic.? Extrinsic rewards tend to fade or > disappear. If somebody it paying you to do something > and the reason you are doing it is because they are > paying you, then you stop doing it when you stop > getting paid. There is nothing inherently bad in this > but it is not what Dewey might call vital experience, > it doesn?t change the way you approach the world, has > not impact on lifelong learning. However if you are > doing something because you want to do it, without an > outside agent or the outside agent is superfluous then > there is a greater chance you will keep doing. The > action is not dependent on anybody else. So Andy I > think your example or somebody attending a political > meeting because they enjoy is actually intrinsic > motivation while somebody attending a meeting because > they want to get things done is extrinsic, in other > words they will stop attending if they don?t think > things will get done (something like this has been > defined as political efficacy). If I read this wrong I > apologize. > > The reason I think it might be unwise to consider it a > dichotomy is because of the way the two have been > define since Bandura. It is more of a process. You > need to start with extrinsic motivation but through a > process of feedback (yes, Bandrua like cybernetics) > and positive reinforcement through success it slowly > becomes intrinsic. It is one of the fundamental tenets > of socio-cognitive theory. > > I have no idea why socio-culturalists do not like > this, it seems to fit pretty well, but I am interested > to here. > > As for Deci and Ryan?s self-determination theory I > don?t really think of intrinsic motivation as innate > (do they say that).? It is more emergent.? You have to > have the right circumstances, which include autonomy, > relatedness, and competence and this perfect storm > leads to intrinsic motivation. But it is difficult to > attain without it. Can you call that innate? > > Michael > > *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > *On Behalf Of > *Andy Blunden > *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:53 AM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation > > Artin, is there any chance that your 'trouble' can be > expressed in a paragraph here? > > Andrew, I also suspect that the making of the > distinction into a dichotomy, a behaviourist > interpretation of the distinction and an ahistorical > understanding of the idea may cause others to reject > it, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. > > We have politicians in this country, and I do believe > that some of them participate in the practice of > politics for the purpose of furthering and even > perfecting that practice, maybe only a few, but some. > But I am sure that there are some who in there for > other purposes, mostly enrichment and/or fame. True, > it is not a dichotomy; some who are there in order to > advance political practice also enjoy the game and the > fame in can bring. But to collapse the two would be > madness. The practice of politics has an object which > is not self-enrichment. Individual motivation must be > judged against that concept of politics. > > A while ago I was giving a talk on my book "Origins of > Collective Decision Making," explaining the ethical > and instrumental differences between Consensus and > Majority, and a young anarchist said she /enjoyed/ > consensus much more than majority decision making. > That there could be reason for choosing one mode of > action rather than another other the pleasure derived > had not occurred to her. I was, I admit, a bit > shocked. This case brings out the subtlety of the > distinction. Acting in political meetings for the > sheer pleasure of doing it is actually an /extrinsic/ > motive, whereas acting in meetings to produce good > decisions implies /intrinsic/ motivation. But > superficially, it seems to be the other way around. > > In a certain context, e.g. playing tennis, doing it > for the pleasure of doing it counts as an intrinsic > motivation, and when you become a profession and maybe > then start playing for the prize money and adulation/, > /rather than in the perfection of the game, then that > is extrinsic motivation. It depends on whether tennis > is taken as a game or a sport, professional or otherwise. > > But maybe it is just the difficulty in making a nice > clear dichotomy which sets people against the distinction? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > On 26/08/2019 12:34 am, Coppens, Andrew wrote: > > I don?t know much about a characteristically CHAT > objection to the distinction but, to my mind, the > main problem is in how intrinsic motivation is > characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and > that extrinsic motivation is set up as its > opposite (i.e., not just a distinction but a > dichotomy). These two features of the theory > create many problems regarding what I need a > theory of motivation to help explain. > > My objections might counter some primary CHAT > texts, but there are a number of reasons I can > imagine being OK with that. > > / Andrew > > --- > > Andrew D. Coppens > > UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall > > 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens > > Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf > of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM > *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic > Motivation > > *Caution - External Email* > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For some reason which I have never understood many > CHAT people seem to be set against this > distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic > to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, > Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to > great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory > of motivation that lacked this distinction. > > What is the problem? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: > > I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of > intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by > authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): > > ?The most basic distinction is between > /intrinsic motivation/, which refers to doing > something because it is inherently interesting > or enjoyable, and /extrinsic motivation/, > which refers to doing something because it > leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken > for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). > > This seems to me an impoverished account for a > variety of reasons, most pressingly because it > attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or > intrinsically motivating as inherent to the > organism, without respect to individuals as > people, engaged in socioculturally constituted > life histories. > > Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic > motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural > theory? > > Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a > sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / > extrinsic construct? > > David > > Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and > extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and > new directions. /Contemporary Educational > Psychology, 25/, 54?67. > https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190826/46ca826f/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Mon Aug 26 00:29:33 2019 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 17:29:33 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5cc80d54-9aed-efbd-f826-1ba8595dd96b@marxists.org> Thanks for your very interesting observations, Lara. I'd like to suggest a way of seeing what is intrinsic to college education, of how and why joy can be derived from learning a fact of history, a principle of nursing, the novelty of a particular author, or whatever. What makes it enjoyable? What is specific about this pleasure which is distinct from the pleasure of watching a movie or playing a computer game? What is the object of College? At the lowest level of ethical development (above "Mum made me go!") it is the intention of gaining a job certificate for the welfare obtained by means of a wage.Instrumental from beginning to end. Nowadays, many governments conceive of colleges in a similarly instrumental way - to generate labour power to work in enterprises to generate profits. Few governments really understand the idea education in the humanities and sciences in the intention of raising the quality of social life. Likewise, it is anticipation of participating in projects in which they will take a real interest in their working life which offers the possibility of gaining intrinsic joy from learning about various facts, principles, methods, innovations, etc., so later to be able to further the profession, raise the quality of social life, improve the lives of ill people, etc. On both sides it implies a mature conception of what college is /for/. If that doesn't help, either they're not ready for college or the college is not offering something in which it is possible to get interested in. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 3:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: > Hi All. > > ... > > When I?m teaching community college students, however, the > simplicity of the terms is a useful tool for helping > students think about why they are in college, given that > most of them have never been exposed in any significant > way to the idea of doing college for the simple purpose of > knowing more and creating possibilities for new ways of > thinking. I keep hoping to help them find some joy in > learning and development. > > Best, > Lara > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190826/7b37488e/attachment.html From dkirsh@lsu.edu Mon Aug 26 08:54:27 2019 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 15:54:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: <3442ca6a-f691-b8fb-e631-870bd7fce33a@marxists.org> References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <2af9f298-a494-d387-5a67-535b2ec14923@marxists.org> <3442ca6a-f691-b8fb-e631-870bd7fce33a@marxists.org> Message-ID: Thanks, Greg, Andrew, David A, Haydi, Patrick, David K, Michael, Lara, Artin, and Andy for a terrific discussion and great resources?Artin, your article especially. I must confess, that my purpose in asking for help on this topic is to write a footnote explaining why I am not relying on Deci & Ryan?s definition of extrinsic/intrinsic. I guess that makes my motive extrinsic, though the discussion has proven interesting, so maybe my motive switched at some point to intrinsic, but then again, the chapter I?m doing this for will advance my career, so doesn?t that pushes my motivation back to extrinsic, except that on reflection, my career choice is motivated by pleasure in learning?though how can I be sure that that pleasure doesn?t stem, at some basic level, from the survival advantage that knowledge confers? See why I don?t want to use Deci & Ryan?s definition? ? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 9:33 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation So you are saying, Artin, as I see it, that in children (who do not yet have a sense of the wider world and still think in pseudoconcepts or more primitive forms) the distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation is problematic. I agree. Because they are children. So the distinction is good. It is not a dichotomy. A clear distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation is a marker of adulthood. The anarchist who told me she enjoyed Consensus more than Majority was young and not yet fully mature. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 12:14 pm, Goncu, Artin wrote: Andy, We argued that a sharp distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation proves to be fallacious in understanding the motivation for imaginative play. Instead, we maintained that motivation for play should be seen on a continuum between what is considered as ?intrinsic? and ?extrinsic? in this distinction. We used the following observations in constructing our argument: 1) On theoretical grounds, origins of imaginative play are non-play experiences of children with others. Therefore, conceptualizing motivation for play as only intrinsic ignores the social origins of play. Many theorists including Piaget, Freud, and Vygotsky illustrated this point; children pretend to master the past experience (Piaget), heal affective wounds (Freud), and resolve tensions emerging in the relationship with the environment (Vygotsky). 2) Research on peer interaction further supports this point that shared imaginative play emerges from negotiations of day-to-day social non-play experiences. 3) Many different lines of research show that adults actively engage in socializing children to the world of imaginative play, suggesting that the motivation for imaginative play exists in social interaction shaped by cultural expectations and resources. Examples of this can be easily seen in mother-infant play. 4) Finally, considering motivation for play solely as intrinsic is inconsistent with intervention efforts that aim to ?improve? children?s play and its outcomes. Best, ag Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor, Emeritus University of Illinois at Chicago www.artingoncu.com/ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 5:54 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Every rational action is done for a purpose. This is the distinction between goal and motive in A N Leontyev and between Purpose and Intention in Hegel, between action and concept in Vygotsky. This distinction goes back to Aristotle. Where this distinction is absent we do no have human life. The distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic is a different one. In Hegel it is the distinction between Intention and Welfare, in A N Leontyev between the really understood motive and the really effective motive. The alienated wage worker turns up at work only in order to earn a wage. Unless "work" is a government make-work program or prison labour, this is an extrinsic motivation. To say that attending a political meeting because you enjoy meetings is an intrinsic motivation is to reduce modern social life to pure hedonism. Like the old argument that altruism is a logical impossibility, because if you do something to help someone that is only because you get pleasure from helping someone. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 2:32 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: Hi all, The earliest I have read about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation (the earliest is was mentioned) was, as with so much else in John Dewey ? Democracy and Education. It may have been mentioned earlier and it was probably an idea floating around. I would be it came up at some of the salons at Jane Addams place. The general distinction (I don?t think dichotomy is the correct word here) is that the extrinsic reward is something that an agent is offering an individual (in Dewey?s case a child) to get them to do something. Dewey?s criticism is ? for lack of a better word ? pragmatic. Extrinsic rewards tend to fade or disappear. If somebody it paying you to do something and the reason you are doing it is because they are paying you, then you stop doing it when you stop getting paid. There is nothing inherently bad in this but it is not what Dewey might call vital experience, it doesn?t change the way you approach the world, has not impact on lifelong learning. However if you are doing something because you want to do it, without an outside agent or the outside agent is superfluous then there is a greater chance you will keep doing. The action is not dependent on anybody else. So Andy I think your example or somebody attending a political meeting because they enjoy is actually intrinsic motivation while somebody attending a meeting because they want to get things done is extrinsic, in other words they will stop attending if they don?t think things will get done (something like this has been defined as political efficacy). If I read this wrong I apologize. The reason I think it might be unwise to consider it a dichotomy is because of the way the two have been define since Bandura. It is more of a process. You need to start with extrinsic motivation but through a process of feedback (yes, Bandrua like cybernetics) and positive reinforcement through success it slowly becomes intrinsic. It is one of the fundamental tenets of socio-cognitive theory. I have no idea why socio-culturalists do not like this, it seems to fit pretty well, but I am interested to here. As for Deci and Ryan?s self-determination theory I don?t really think of intrinsic motivation as innate (do they say that). It is more emergent. You have to have the right circumstances, which include autonomy, relatedness, and competence and this perfect storm leads to intrinsic motivation. But it is difficult to attain without it. Can you call that innate? Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:53 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Artin, is there any chance that your 'trouble' can be expressed in a paragraph here? Andrew, I also suspect that the making of the distinction into a dichotomy, a behaviourist interpretation of the distinction and an ahistorical understanding of the idea may cause others to reject it, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We have politicians in this country, and I do believe that some of them participate in the practice of politics for the purpose of furthering and even perfecting that practice, maybe only a few, but some. But I am sure that there are some who in there for other purposes, mostly enrichment and/or fame. True, it is not a dichotomy; some who are there in order to advance political practice also enjoy the game and the fame in can bring. But to collapse the two would be madness. The practice of politics has an object which is not self-enrichment. Individual motivation must be judged against that concept of politics. A while ago I was giving a talk on my book "Origins of Collective Decision Making," explaining the ethical and instrumental differences between Consensus and Majority, and a young anarchist said she enjoyed consensus much more than majority decision making. That there could be reason for choosing one mode of action rather than another other the pleasure derived had not occurred to her. I was, I admit, a bit shocked. This case brings out the subtlety of the distinction. Acting in political meetings for the sheer pleasure of doing it is actually an extrinsic motive, whereas acting in meetings to produce good decisions implies intrinsic motivation. But superficially, it seems to be the other way around. In a certain context, e.g. playing tennis, doing it for the pleasure of doing it counts as an intrinsic motivation, and when you become a profession and maybe then start playing for the prize money and adulation, rather than in the perfection of the game, then that is extrinsic motivation. It depends on whether tennis is taken as a game or a sport, professional or otherwise. But maybe it is just the difficulty in making a nice clear dichotomy which sets people against the distinction? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 12:34 am, Coppens, Andrew wrote: I don?t know much about a characteristically CHAT objection to the distinction but, to my mind, the main problem is in how intrinsic motivation is characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that extrinsic motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., not just a distinction but a dichotomy). These two features of the theory create many problems regarding what I need a theory of motivation to help explain. My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, but there are a number of reasons I can imagine being OK with that. / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Caution - External Email ________________________________ For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. What is the problem? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190826/2248b1b3/attachment.html From h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 26 09:09:48 2019 From: h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk (peter jones) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:09:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: <2af9f298-a494-d387-5a67-535b2ec14923@marxists.org> References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <2af9f298-a494-d387-5a67-535b2ec14923@marxists.org> Message-ID: <645474936.1582817.1566835788223@mail.yahoo.com> Following some of this thread and (again) note your specific context, focus and question, but also just read (print copy): https://www.economist.com/united-states/2019/04/04/happiness-and-voting - and interesting looking again at your 'dichotomy' in terms of happiness (and contentedness) and the role of *loss aversion* (from a very early age)? The economist notes that charity and altruistic acts "certainly make people feel better in themselves (and studies have shown this is true even for infants)." p.38. The paper mentioned in the Economist (p.38 April 6, 2019) is I believe: http://humcap.uchicago.edu/RePEc/hka/wpaper/Pinto_Bencsik_Chuluun_etal_2019_presidential-elections-happiness-us.pdf Sergio Pinto & Panka Bencsik & Tuugi Chuluun & Carol Graham, 2019. "Presidential Elections, Divided Politics, and Happiness in the U.S,"?Working Papers?2019-015, Human Capital and Economic Opportunity Working Group. There's another dichotomy so apologies for not simplifying matters: The paper writes of "two subjective dimensions of well-being: evaluative (life satisfaction) and hedonic (affect) well-being." p.1(Children, juniors, infants ... are not mentioned in Pinto et al.). Within the four domains of Hodges' model I have placed 'purpose(s)' in the INTRA- INTERPERSONAL.We can differentiate between individual purposes and organisational ... It strikes me that of the myriad dichotomies that invariably arise (constructively to further debate, argumentation; and those raised on 'purpose' (politically) to stymie debate) Hodges' model can act on both: Continua AND Dichotomy - to perhaps facilitate conceptual integration (meaning, consensus, differences accepted/acknowledged ...)? Peter Jones Community Mental Health Nurse, Tutor & ResearcherBlogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ http://twitter.com/h2cm On Sunday, 25 August 2019, 23:57:19 BST, Andy Blunden wrote: Every rational action is done for a purpose. This is the distinction between goal and motive in A N Leontyev and between Purpose and Intention in Hegel, between action and concept in Vygotsky. This distinction goes back to Aristotle.? Where this distinction is absent we do no have human life. The distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic is a different one. In Hegel it is the distinction between Intention and Welfare, in A N Leontyev between the really understood motive and the really effective motive. The alienated wage worker turns up at work only in order to earn a wage. Unless "work" is a government make-work program or prison labour, this is an extrinsic motivation. To say that attending a political meeting because you enjoy meetings is an intrinsic motivation is to reduce modern social life to pure hedonism. Like the old argument that altruism is a logical impossibility, because if you do something to help someone that is only because you get pleasure from helping someone. Andy Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 2:32 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: Hi all, ? The earliest I have read about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation (the earliest is was mentioned) was, as with so much else in John Dewey ? Democracy and Education.? It may have been mentioned earlier and it was probably an idea floating around. I would be it came up at some of the salons at Jane Addams place. The general distinction (I don?t think dichotomy is the correct word here) is that the extrinsic reward is something that an agent is offering an individual (in Dewey?s case a child) to get them to do something. Dewey?s criticism is ? for lack of a better word ? pragmatic.? Extrinsic rewards tend to fade or disappear. If somebody it paying you to do something and the reason you are doing it is because they are paying you, then you stop doing it when you stop getting paid. There is nothing inherently bad in this but it is not what Dewey might call vital experience, it doesn?t change the way you approach the world, has not impact on lifelong learning. However if you are doing something because you want to do it, without an outside agent or the outside agent is superfluous then there is a greater chance you will keep doing. The action is not dependent on anybody else. So Andy I think your example or somebody attending a political meeting because they enjoy is actually intrinsic motivation while somebody attending a meeting because they want to get things done is extrinsic, in other words they will stop attending if they don?t think things will get done (something like this has been defined as political efficacy). If I read this wrong I apologize. ? The reason I think it might be unwise to consider it a dichotomy is because of the way the two have been define since Bandura. It is more of a process. You need to start with extrinsic motivation but through a process of feedback (yes, Bandrua like cybernetics) and positive reinforcement through success it slowly becomes intrinsic. It is one of the fundamental tenets of socio-cognitive theory. ? I have no idea why socio-culturalists do not like this, it seems to fit pretty well, but I am interested to here. ? As for Deci and Ryan?s self-determination theory I don?t really think of intrinsic motivation as innate (do they say that).? It is more emergent.? You have to have the right circumstances, which include autonomy, relatedness, and competence and this perfect storm leads to intrinsic motivation. But it is difficult to attain without it. Can you call that innate? ? Michael ? From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:53 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation ? Artin, is there any chance that your 'trouble' can be expressed in a paragraph here? Andrew, I also suspect that the making of the distinction into a dichotomy, a behaviourist interpretation of the distinction and an ahistorical understanding of the idea may cause others to reject it, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. ? We have politicians in this country, and I do believe that some of them participate in the practice of politics for the purpose of furthering and even perfecting that practice, maybe only a few, but some. But I am sure that there are some who in there for other purposes, mostly enrichment and/or fame. True, it is not a dichotomy; some who are there in order to advance political practice also enjoy the game and the fame in can bring. But to collapse the two would be madness. The practice of politics has an object which is not self-enrichment. Individual motivation must be judged against that concept of politics. A while ago I was giving a talk on my book "Origins of Collective Decision Making," explaining the ethical and instrumental differences between Consensus and Majority, and a young anarchist said she enjoyed consensus much more than majority decision making. That there could be reason for choosing one mode of action rather than another other the pleasure derived had not occurred to her. I was, I admit, a bit shocked. This case brings out the subtlety of the distinction. Acting in political meetings for the sheer pleasure of doing it is actually an extrinsic motive, whereas acting in meetings to produce good decisions implies intrinsic motivation. But superficially, it seems to be the other way around. In a certain context, e.g. playing tennis, doing it for the pleasure of doing it counts as an intrinsic motivation, and when you become a profession and maybe then start playing for the prize money and adulation, rather than in the perfection of the game, then that is extrinsic motivation. It depends on whether tennis is taken as a game or a sport, professional or otherwise. But maybe it is just the difficulty in making a nice clear dichotomy which sets people against the distinction? Andy Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 12:34 am, Coppens, Andrew wrote: I don?t know much about a characteristically CHAT objection to the distinction but, to my mind, the main problem is in how intrinsic motivation is characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that extrinsic motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., not just a distinction but a dichotomy). These two features of the theory create many problems regarding what I need a theory of motivation to help explain. ? My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, but there are a number of reasons I can imagine being OK with that. ? / Andrew ? --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation ? Caution - External Email For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. What is the problem? Andy Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). ? This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. ? Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? ? David ? Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190826/f621dd53/attachment.html From goncu@uic.edu Mon Aug 26 09:15:40 2019 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:15:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <2af9f298-a494-d387-5a67-535b2ec14923@marxists.org> <3442ca6a-f691-b8fb-e631-870bd7fce33a@marxists.org> Message-ID: Sure, David, could you pls send me your ch. Once done? Thanks in advance, ag From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David H Kirshner Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 10:54 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Thanks, Greg, Andrew, David A, Haydi, Patrick, David K, Michael, Lara, Artin, and Andy for a terrific discussion and great resources?Artin, your article especially. I must confess, that my purpose in asking for help on this topic is to write a footnote explaining why I am not relying on Deci & Ryan?s definition of extrinsic/intrinsic. I guess that makes my motive extrinsic, though the discussion has proven interesting, so maybe my motive switched at some point to intrinsic, but then again, the chapter I?m doing this for will advance my career, so doesn?t that pushes my motivation back to extrinsic, except that on reflection, my career choice is motivated by pleasure in learning?though how can I be sure that that pleasure doesn?t stem, at some basic level, from the survival advantage that knowledge confers? See why I don?t want to use Deci & Ryan?s definition? ? David From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 9:33 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation So you are saying, Artin, as I see it, that in children (who do not yet have a sense of the wider world and still think in pseudoconcepts or more primitive forms) the distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation is problematic. I agree. Because they are children. So the distinction is good. It is not a dichotomy. A clear distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation is a marker of adulthood. The anarchist who told me she enjoyed Consensus more than Majority was young and not yet fully mature. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 12:14 pm, Goncu, Artin wrote: Andy, We argued that a sharp distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation proves to be fallacious in understanding the motivation for imaginative play. Instead, we maintained that motivation for play should be seen on a continuum between what is considered as ?intrinsic? and ?extrinsic? in this distinction. We used the following observations in constructing our argument: 1) On theoretical grounds, origins of imaginative play are non-play experiences of children with others. Therefore, conceptualizing motivation for play as only intrinsic ignores the social origins of play. Many theorists including Piaget, Freud, and Vygotsky illustrated this point; children pretend to master the past experience (Piaget), heal affective wounds (Freud), and resolve tensions emerging in the relationship with the environment (Vygotsky). 2) Research on peer interaction further supports this point that shared imaginative play emerges from negotiations of day-to-day social non-play experiences. 3) Many different lines of research show that adults actively engage in socializing children to the world of imaginative play, suggesting that the motivation for imaginative play exists in social interaction shaped by cultural expectations and resources. Examples of this can be easily seen in mother-infant play. 4) Finally, considering motivation for play solely as intrinsic is inconsistent with intervention efforts that aim to ?improve? children?s play and its outcomes. Best, ag Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor, Emeritus University of Illinois at Chicago www.artingoncu.com/ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 5:54 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Every rational action is done for a purpose. This is the distinction between goal and motive in A N Leontyev and between Purpose and Intention in Hegel, between action and concept in Vygotsky. This distinction goes back to Aristotle. Where this distinction is absent we do no have human life. The distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic is a different one. In Hegel it is the distinction between Intention and Welfare, in A N Leontyev between the really understood motive and the really effective motive. The alienated wage worker turns up at work only in order to earn a wage. Unless "work" is a government make-work program or prison labour, this is an extrinsic motivation. To say that attending a political meeting because you enjoy meetings is an intrinsic motivation is to reduce modern social life to pure hedonism. Like the old argument that altruism is a logical impossibility, because if you do something to help someone that is only because you get pleasure from helping someone. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 2:32 am, Glassman, Michael wrote: Hi all, The earliest I have read about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation (the earliest is was mentioned) was, as with so much else in John Dewey ? Democracy and Education. It may have been mentioned earlier and it was probably an idea floating around. I would be it came up at some of the salons at Jane Addams place. The general distinction (I don?t think dichotomy is the correct word here) is that the extrinsic reward is something that an agent is offering an individual (in Dewey?s case a child) to get them to do something. Dewey?s criticism is ? for lack of a better word ? pragmatic. Extrinsic rewards tend to fade or disappear. If somebody it paying you to do something and the reason you are doing it is because they are paying you, then you stop doing it when you stop getting paid. There is nothing inherently bad in this but it is not what Dewey might call vital experience, it doesn?t change the way you approach the world, has not impact on lifelong learning. However if you are doing something because you want to do it, without an outside agent or the outside agent is superfluous then there is a greater chance you will keep doing. The action is not dependent on anybody else. So Andy I think your example or somebody attending a political meeting because they enjoy is actually intrinsic motivation while somebody attending a meeting because they want to get things done is extrinsic, in other words they will stop attending if they don?t think things will get done (something like this has been defined as political efficacy). If I read this wrong I apologize. The reason I think it might be unwise to consider it a dichotomy is because of the way the two have been define since Bandura. It is more of a process. You need to start with extrinsic motivation but through a process of feedback (yes, Bandrua like cybernetics) and positive reinforcement through success it slowly becomes intrinsic. It is one of the fundamental tenets of socio-cognitive theory. I have no idea why socio-culturalists do not like this, it seems to fit pretty well, but I am interested to here. As for Deci and Ryan?s self-determination theory I don?t really think of intrinsic motivation as innate (do they say that). It is more emergent. You have to have the right circumstances, which include autonomy, relatedness, and competence and this perfect storm leads to intrinsic motivation. But it is difficult to attain without it. Can you call that innate? Michael From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:53 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Artin, is there any chance that your 'trouble' can be expressed in a paragraph here? Andrew, I also suspect that the making of the distinction into a dichotomy, a behaviourist interpretation of the distinction and an ahistorical understanding of the idea may cause others to reject it, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We have politicians in this country, and I do believe that some of them participate in the practice of politics for the purpose of furthering and even perfecting that practice, maybe only a few, but some. But I am sure that there are some who in there for other purposes, mostly enrichment and/or fame. True, it is not a dichotomy; some who are there in order to advance political practice also enjoy the game and the fame in can bring. But to collapse the two would be madness. The practice of politics has an object which is not self-enrichment. Individual motivation must be judged against that concept of politics. A while ago I was giving a talk on my book "Origins of Collective Decision Making," explaining the ethical and instrumental differences between Consensus and Majority, and a young anarchist said she enjoyed consensus much more than majority decision making. That there could be reason for choosing one mode of action rather than another other the pleasure derived had not occurred to her. I was, I admit, a bit shocked. This case brings out the subtlety of the distinction. Acting in political meetings for the sheer pleasure of doing it is actually an extrinsic motive, whereas acting in meetings to produce good decisions implies intrinsic motivation. But superficially, it seems to be the other way around. In a certain context, e.g. playing tennis, doing it for the pleasure of doing it counts as an intrinsic motivation, and when you become a profession and maybe then start playing for the prize money and adulation, rather than in the perfection of the game, then that is extrinsic motivation. It depends on whether tennis is taken as a game or a sport, professional or otherwise. But maybe it is just the difficulty in making a nice clear dichotomy which sets people against the distinction? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 12:34 am, Coppens, Andrew wrote: I don?t know much about a characteristically CHAT objection to the distinction but, to my mind, the main problem is in how intrinsic motivation is characterized (i.e., acultural, ahistorical) and that extrinsic motivation is set up as its opposite (i.e., not just a distinction but a dichotomy). These two features of the theory create many problems regarding what I need a theory of motivation to help explain. My objections might counter some primary CHAT texts, but there are a number of reasons I can imagine being OK with that. / Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens UNH Education Dept., 302 Morrill Hall 603-862-3736, @andrewcoppens Schedule a meeting: calendly.com/acoppens ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:28:40 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation Caution - External Email ________________________________ For some reason which I have never understood many CHAT people seem to be set against this distinction. And yet the distinction is intrinsic to A N Leontyev's Activity Theory. In addition, Alasdair MacIntyre uses it to, in my opinion to great effect, such that I cannot imagine a theory of motivation that lacked this distinction. What is the problem? Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 25/08/2019 1:00 pm, David H Kirshner wrote: I?m reading a behaviorally oriented account of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation by authoritative authors Ryan and Deci (2000): ?The most basic distinction is between intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it is inherently interesting or enjoyable, and extrinsic motivation, which refers to doing something because it leads to a separable outcome [one undertaken for instrumental reasons]? (p. 55). This seems to me an impoverished account for a variety of reasons, most pressingly because it attempts to naturalize what is pleasurable or intrinsically motivating as inherent to the organism, without respect to individuals as people, engaged in socioculturally constituted life histories. Does the construct of intrinsic / extrinsic motivation surface anywhere in sociocultural theory? Alternatively, can anyone point me toward a sociocultural critique of the intrinsic / extrinsic construct? David Ryan R. M., & Deci E. L. (2000). Intrinsic and extrinsic motivations: Classic definitions and new directions. Contemporary Educational Psychology, 25, 54?67. https://doi.org/10.1006/ceps.1999.1020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190826/a025378c/attachment.html From larabeaty@gmail.com Mon Aug 26 09:33:16 2019 From: larabeaty@gmail.com (Lara Beaty) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 12:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: <5cc80d54-9aed-efbd-f826-1ba8595dd96b@marxists.org> References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> <5cc80d54-9aed-efbd-f826-1ba8595dd96b@marxists.org> Message-ID: Andy, I like the focus on particular activities that you suggest. I have designed and teach a First Year Seminar in Psychology in which I like to try out different activities to see what will connect with different students, but I still tend to be a little too abstract. It is a great course for putting theory into practice! I talk with students a lot about the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not. For my research, I?ve explored a little the history of how politicians speak about college and wondered how important this might be to understanding student development. This discussion has led me to think about how intrinsic motivation or enjoyment or, for that matter, ?development? tends to be viewed as important only for upper classes?how these concepts are cultural tools used to shape and sustain inequality while appearing to be abstract and neutral. The administration at my college loves Carol Dweck?s concept of growth mindset but also wants to control the direction of student growth, directing it away from the political and rebellious. Most of my students have no real concept of what college is, I suspect. Best, Lara > On Aug 26, 2019, at 3:29 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks for your very interesting observations, Lara. > > I'd like to suggest a way of seeing what is intrinsic to college education, of how and why joy can be derived from learning a fact of history, a principle of nursing, the novelty of a particular author, or whatever. What makes it enjoyable? What is specific about this pleasure which is distinct from the pleasure of watching a movie or playing a computer game? > > What is the object of College? At the lowest level of ethical development (above "Mum made me go!") it is the intention of gaining a job certificate for the welfare obtained by means of a wage.Instrumental from beginning to end. Nowadays, many governments conceive of colleges in a similarly instrumental way - to generate labour power to work in enterprises to generate profits. Few governments really understand the idea education in the humanities and sciences in the intention of raising the quality of social life. > > Likewise, it is anticipation of participating in projects in which they will take a real interest in their working life which offers the possibility of gaining intrinsic joy from learning about various facts, principles, methods, innovations, etc., so later to be able to further the profession, raise the quality of social life, improve the lives of ill people, etc. On both sides it implies a mature conception of what college is for. > > If that doesn't help, either they're not ready for college or the college is not offering something in which it is possible to get interested in. > Andy > Andy Blunden > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 26/08/2019 3:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: >> Hi All. >> >> ... >> >> When I?m teaching community college students, however, the simplicity of the terms is a useful tool for helping students think about why they are in college, given that most of them have never been exposed in any significant way to the idea of doing college for the simple purpose of knowing more and creating possibilities for new ways of thinking. I keep hoping to help them find some joy in learning and development. >> >> Best, >> Lara >> >> >> Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty Professor of Psychology Psychology Program Co-Director SERG Director Social Science Department LaGuardia Community College, CUNY 718-482-5796 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190826/32ff9fe4/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Mon Aug 26 15:54:16 2019 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 08:54:16 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> <5cc80d54-9aed-efbd-f826-1ba8595dd96b@marxists.org> Message-ID: Sounds like you might be interested in some of Anna Stetsenko's work at CUNY on what she calls the "Transformative Activist Stance." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 27/08/2019 2:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: > Andy, > > I like the focus on particular activities that you > suggest. I have designed and teach a First Year Seminar in > Psychology in which I like to try out different activities > to see what will connect with different students, but I > still tend to be a little too abstract. It is a great > course for putting theory into practice! I talk with > students a lot about the object of college and find some > of them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more > vulnerable, less motivated students are not. > > For my research, I?ve explored a little the history of how > politicians speak about college and wondered how important > this might be to understanding student development. This > discussion has led me to think about how intrinsic > motivation or enjoyment or, for that matter, ?development? > tends to be viewed as important only for upper classes?how > these concepts are cultural tools used to shape and > sustain inequality while appearing to be abstract and > neutral. The administration at my college loves Carol > Dweck?s concept of growth mindset but also wants to > control the direction of student growth, directing it away > from the political and rebellious. > > Most of my students have no real concept of what college > is, I suspect. > > Best, > Lara > >> On Aug 26, 2019, at 3:29 AM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> Thanks for your very interesting observations, Lara. >> >> I'd like to suggest a way of seeing what is intrinsic to >> college education, of how and why joy can be derived from >> learning a fact of history, a principle of nursing, the >> novelty of a particular author, or whatever. What makes >> it enjoyable? What is specific about this pleasure which >> is distinct from the pleasure of watching a movie or >> playing a computer game? >> >> What is the object of College? At the lowest level of >> ethical development (above "Mum made me go!") it is the >> intention of gaining a job certificate for the welfare >> obtained by means of a wage.Instrumental from beginning >> to end. Nowadays, many governments conceive of colleges >> in a similarly instrumental way - to generate labour >> power to work in enterprises to generate profits. Few >> governments really understand the idea education in the >> humanities and sciences in the intention of raising the >> quality of social life. >> >> Likewise, it is anticipation of participating in projects >> in which they will take a real interest in their working >> life which offers the possibility of gaining intrinsic >> joy from learning about various facts, principles, >> methods, innovations, etc., so later to be able to >> further the profession, raise the quality of social life, >> improve the lives of ill people, etc. On both sides it >> implies a mature conception of what college is /for/. >> >> If that doesn't help, either they're not ready for >> college or the college is not offering something in which >> it is possible to get interested in. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >> On 26/08/2019 3:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: >>> Hi All. >>> >>> ... >>> >>> When I?m teaching community college students, however, >>> the simplicity of the terms is a useful tool for helping >>> students think about why they are in college, given that >>> most of them have never been exposed in any significant >>> way to the idea of doing college for the simple purpose >>> of knowing more and creating possibilities for new ways >>> of thinking. I keep hoping to help them find some joy in >>> learning and development. >>> >>> Best, >>> Lara >>> >>> >>> > > Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty > Professor of Psychology > Psychology Program Co-Director > SERG Director > Social Science Department > LaGuardia Community College, CUNY > 718-482-5796 > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190827/8d1e98dd/attachment.html From larabeaty@gmail.com Mon Aug 26 18:07:59 2019 From: larabeaty@gmail.com (Lara Beaty) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 21:07:59 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> <5cc80d54-9aed-efbd-f826-1ba8595dd96b@marxists.org> Message-ID: > On Aug 26, 2019, at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Sounds like you might be interested in some of Anna Stetsenko's work at CUNY on what she calls the "Transformative Activist Stance." > > Andy > Yes, Anna has already been an influence. I want to connect some of those ideas with ideas such as yours on concept development as I try to make sense of many hours worth of video recorded meetings with students. Administrative work has kept from really looking closely at the videos, but I?m hoping to have a sabbatical next year. Do you have any suggestions for connecting how concepts develop in relation to identity and agency? I am intrigued by the differences and similarities in how students seem to understand the research we do together and have hopes of tracing it over time. Best, Lara > Andy Blunden > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 27/08/2019 2:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: >> Andy, >> >> I like the focus on particular activities that you suggest. I have designed and teach a First Year Seminar in Psychology in which I like to try out different activities to see what will connect with different students, but I still tend to be a little too abstract. It is a great course for putting theory into practice! I talk with students a lot about the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not. >> >> For my research, I?ve explored a little the history of how politicians speak about college and wondered how important this might be to understanding student development. This discussion has led me to think about how intrinsic motivation or enjoyment or, for that matter, ?development? tends to be viewed as important only for upper classes?how these concepts are cultural tools used to shape and sustain inequality while appearing to be abstract and neutral. The administration at my college loves Carol Dweck?s concept of growth mindset but also wants to control the direction of student growth, directing it away from the political and rebellious. >> >> Most of my students have no real concept of what college is, I suspect. >> >> Best, >> Lara >> >>> On Aug 26, 2019, at 3:29 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for your very interesting observations, Lara. >>> >>> I'd like to suggest a way of seeing what is intrinsic to college education, of how and why joy can be derived from learning a fact of history, a principle of nursing, the novelty of a particular author, or whatever. What makes it enjoyable? What is specific about this pleasure which is distinct from the pleasure of watching a movie or playing a computer game? >>> >>> What is the object of College? At the lowest level of ethical development (above "Mum made me go!") it is the intention of gaining a job certificate for the welfare obtained by means of a wage.Instrumental from beginning to end. Nowadays, many governments conceive of colleges in a similarly instrumental way - to generate labour power to work in enterprises to generate profits. Few governments really understand the idea education in the humanities and sciences in the intention of raising the quality of social life. >>> >>> Likewise, it is anticipation of participating in projects in which they will take a real interest in their working life which offers the possibility of gaining intrinsic joy from learning about various facts, principles, methods, innovations, etc., so later to be able to further the profession, raise the quality of social life, improve the lives of ill people, etc. On both sides it implies a mature conception of what college is for. >>> >>> If that doesn't help, either they're not ready for college or the college is not offering something in which it is possible to get interested in. >>> Andy >>> Andy Blunden >>> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >>> On 26/08/2019 3:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: >>>> Hi All. >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> When I?m teaching community college students, however, the simplicity of the terms is a useful tool for helping students think about why they are in college, given that most of them have never been exposed in any significant way to the idea of doing college for the simple purpose of knowing more and creating possibilities for new ways of thinking. I keep hoping to help them find some joy in learning and development. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Lara >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty >> Professor of Psychology >> Psychology Program Co-Director >> SERG Director >> Social Science Department >> LaGuardia Community College, CUNY >> 718-482-5796 >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty Professor of Psychology Psychology Program Co-Director SERG Director Social Science Department LaGuardia Community College, CUNY 718-482-5796 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190826/3c52978a/attachment.html From goncu@uic.edu Mon Aug 26 20:56:39 2019 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 03:56:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> <5cc80d54-9aed-efbd-f826-1ba8595dd96b@marxists.org> , Message-ID: Lara, Maria Varelas at the University of Illinois at Chicago works in similar areas. I recommend that you take a look at her work. Best, ag Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2019, at 8:11 PM, Lara Beaty > wrote: On Aug 26, 2019, at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Sounds like you might be interested in some of Anna Stetsenko's work at CUNY on what she calls the "Transformative Activist Stance." Andy Yes, Anna has already been an influence. I want to connect some of those ideas with ideas such as yours on concept development as I try to make sense of many hours worth of video recorded meetings with students. Administrative work has kept from really looking closely at the videos, but I?m hoping to have a sabbatical next year. Do you have any suggestions for connecting how concepts develop in relation to identity and agency? I am intrigued by the differences and similarities in how students seem to understand the research we do together and have hopes of tracing it over time. Best, Lara ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 27/08/2019 2:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: Andy, I like the focus on particular activities that you suggest. I have designed and teach a First Year Seminar in Psychology in which I like to try out different activities to see what will connect with different students, but I still tend to be a little too abstract. It is a great course for putting theory into practice! I talk with students a lot about the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not. For my research, I?ve explored a little the history of how politicians speak about college and wondered how important this might be to understanding student development. This discussion has led me to think about how intrinsic motivation or enjoyment or, for that matter, ?development? tends to be viewed as important only for upper classes?how these concepts are cultural tools used to shape and sustain inequality while appearing to be abstract and neutral. The administration at my college loves Carol Dweck?s concept of growth mindset but also wants to control the direction of student growth, directing it away from the political and rebellious. Most of my students have no real concept of what college is, I suspect. Best, Lara On Aug 26, 2019, at 3:29 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: Thanks for your very interesting observations, Lara. I'd like to suggest a way of seeing what is intrinsic to college education, of how and why joy can be derived from learning a fact of history, a principle of nursing, the novelty of a particular author, or whatever. What makes it enjoyable? What is specific about this pleasure which is distinct from the pleasure of watching a movie or playing a computer game? What is the object of College? At the lowest level of ethical development (above "Mum made me go!") it is the intention of gaining a job certificate for the welfare obtained by means of a wage.Instrumental from beginning to end. Nowadays, many governments conceive of colleges in a similarly instrumental way - to generate labour power to work in enterprises to generate profits. Few governments really understand the idea education in the humanities and sciences in the intention of raising the quality of social life. Likewise, it is anticipation of participating in projects in which they will take a real interest in their working life which offers the possibility of gaining intrinsic joy from learning about various facts, principles, methods, innovations, etc., so later to be able to further the profession, raise the quality of social life, improve the lives of ill people, etc. On both sides it implies a mature conception of what college is for. If that doesn't help, either they're not ready for college or the college is not offering something in which it is possible to get interested in. Andy ________________________________ Andy Blunden https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 26/08/2019 3:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: Hi All. ... When I?m teaching community college students, however, the simplicity of the terms is a useful tool for helping students think about why they are in college, given that most of them have never been exposed in any significant way to the idea of doing college for the simple purpose of knowing more and creating possibilities for new ways of thinking. I keep hoping to help them find some joy in learning and development. Best, Lara Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty Professor of Psychology Psychology Program Co-Director SERG Director Social Science Department LaGuardia Community College, CUNY 718-482-5796 Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty Professor of Psychology Psychology Program Co-Director SERG Director Social Science Department LaGuardia Community College, CUNY 718-482-5796 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190827/8bafaf45/attachment.html From andyb@marxists.org Tue Aug 27 02:56:15 2019 From: andyb@marxists.org (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:56:15 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> <5cc80d54-9aed-efbd-f826-1ba8595dd96b@marxists.org> Message-ID: Big questions, Lara! I'll just link to my Introduction to "Collaborative Projects": https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Collaborative_Projects.pdf Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 27/08/2019 11:07 am, Lara Beaty wrote: > >> On Aug 26, 2019, at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> Sounds like you might be interested in some of Anna >> Stetsenko's work at CUNY on what she calls the >> "Transformative Activist Stance." >> >> Andy >> > > Yes, Anna has already been an influence. I want to connect > some of those ideas with ideas such as yours on concept > development as I try to make sense of many hours worth of > video recorded meetings with students. Administrative work > has kept from really looking closely at the videos, but > I?m hoping to have a sabbatical next year. Do you have any > suggestions for connecting how concepts develop in > relation to identity and agency? I am intrigued by the > differences and similarities in how students seem to > understand the research we do together and have hopes of > tracing it over time. > > Best, > Lara >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >> On 27/08/2019 2:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: >>> Andy, >>> >>> I like the focus on particular activities that you >>> suggest. I have designed and teach a First Year Seminar >>> in Psychology in which I like to try out different >>> activities to see what will connect with different >>> students, but I still tend to be a little too abstract. >>> It is a great course for putting theory into practice! I >>> talk with students a lot about the object of college and >>> find some of them eager to engage in this conversation, >>> but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not. >>> >>> For my research, I?ve explored a little the history of >>> how politicians speak about college and wondered how >>> important this might be to understanding student >>> development. This discussion has led me to think about >>> how intrinsic motivation or enjoyment or, for that >>> matter, ?development? tends to be viewed as important >>> only for upper classes?how these concepts are cultural >>> tools used to shape and sustain inequality while >>> appearing to be abstract and neutral. The administration >>> at my college loves Carol Dweck?s concept of growth >>> mindset but also wants to control the direction of >>> student growth, directing it away from the political and >>> rebellious. >>> >>> Most of my students have no real concept of what college >>> is, I suspect. >>> >>> Best, >>> Lara >>> >>>> On Aug 26, 2019, at 3:29 AM, Andy Blunden >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks for your very interesting observations, Lara. >>>> >>>> I'd like to suggest a way of seeing what is intrinsic >>>> to college education, of how and why joy can be derived >>>> from learning a fact of history, a principle of >>>> nursing, the novelty of a particular author, or >>>> whatever. What makes it enjoyable? What is specific >>>> about this pleasure which is distinct from the pleasure >>>> of watching a movie or playing a computer game? >>>> >>>> What is the object of College? At the lowest level of >>>> ethical development (above "Mum made me go!") it is the >>>> intention of gaining a job certificate for the welfare >>>> obtained by means of a wage.Instrumental from beginning >>>> to end. Nowadays, many governments conceive of colleges >>>> in a similarly instrumental way - to generate labour >>>> power to work in enterprises to generate profits. Few >>>> governments really understand the idea education in the >>>> humanities and sciences in the intention of raising the >>>> quality of social life. >>>> >>>> Likewise, it is anticipation of participating in >>>> projects in which they will take a real interest in >>>> their working life which offers the possibility of >>>> gaining intrinsic joy from learning about various >>>> facts, principles, methods, innovations, etc., so later >>>> to be able to further the profession, raise the quality >>>> of social life, improve the lives of ill people, etc. >>>> On both sides it implies a mature conception of what >>>> college is /for/. >>>> >>>> If that doesn't help, either they're not ready for >>>> college or the college is not offering something in >>>> which it is possible to get interested in. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >>>> On 26/08/2019 3:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: >>>>> Hi All. >>>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> When I?m teaching community college students, however, >>>>> the simplicity of the terms is a useful tool for >>>>> helping students think about why they are in college, >>>>> given that most of them have never been exposed in any >>>>> significant way to the idea of doing college for the >>>>> simple purpose of knowing more and creating >>>>> possibilities for new ways of thinking. I keep hoping >>>>> to help them find some joy in learning and development. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Lara >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty >>> Professor of Psychology >>> Psychology Program Co-Director >>> SERG Director >>> Social Science Department >>> LaGuardia Community College, CUNY >>> 718-482-5796 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty > Professor of Psychology > Psychology Program Co-Director > SERG Director > Social Science Department > LaGuardia Community College, CUNY > 718-482-5796 > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190827/27289a8d/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Aug 27 06:42:14 2019 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 07:42:14 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> <5cc80d54-9aed-efbd-f826-1ba8595dd96b@marxists.org> Message-ID: Lara, You said this which got me thinking: ?I talk with students a lot about the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not.? I wonder if you have much insight about why the less motivated and vulnerable students are not eager to engage in the conversation about the object of college? Maybe you?ve a asked them and can share some of their responses. I?m curious as to what is going on there. Greg On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 10:36 AM Lara Beaty wrote: > Andy, > > I like the focus on particular activities that you suggest. I have > designed and teach a First Year Seminar in Psychology in which I like to > try out different activities to see what will connect with different > students, but I still tend to be a little too abstract. It is a great > course for putting theory into practice! I talk with students a lot about > the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this > conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not. > > For my research, I?ve explored a little the history of how politicians > speak about college and wondered how important this might be to > understanding student development. This discussion has led me to think > about how intrinsic motivation or enjoyment or, for that matter, > ?development? tends to be viewed as important only for upper classes?how > these concepts are cultural tools used to shape and sustain inequality > while appearing to be abstract and neutral. The administration at my > college loves Carol Dweck?s concept of growth mindset but also wants to > control the direction of student growth, directing it away from the > political and rebellious. > > Most of my students have no real concept of what college is, I suspect. > > Best, > Lara > > On Aug 26, 2019, at 3:29 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks for your very interesting observations, Lara. > > I'd like to suggest a way of seeing what is intrinsic to college > education, of how and why joy can be derived from learning a fact of > history, a principle of nursing, the novelty of a particular author, or > whatever. What makes it enjoyable? What is specific about this pleasure > which is distinct from the pleasure of watching a movie or playing a > computer game? > > What is the object of College? At the lowest level of ethical development > (above "Mum made me go!") it is the intention of gaining a job certificate > for the welfare obtained by means of a wage.Instrumental from beginning to > end. Nowadays, many governments conceive of colleges in a similarly > instrumental way - to generate labour power to work in enterprises to > generate profits. Few governments really understand the idea education in > the humanities and sciences in the intention of raising the quality of > social life. > > Likewise, it is anticipation of participating in projects in which they > will take a real interest in their working life which offers the > possibility of gaining intrinsic joy from learning about various facts, > principles, methods, innovations, etc., so later to be able to further the > profession, raise the quality of social life, improve the lives of ill > people, etc. On both sides it implies a mature conception of what college > is *for*. > > If that doesn't help, either they're not ready for college or the college > is not offering something in which it is possible to get interested in. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 26/08/2019 3:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: > > Hi All. > > ... > > When I?m teaching community college students, however, the simplicity of > the terms is a useful tool for helping students think about why they are in > college, given that most of them have never been exposed in any significant > way to the idea of doing college for the simple purpose of knowing more and > creating possibilities for new ways of thinking. I keep hoping to help them > find some joy in learning and development. > > Best, > Lara > > > > > Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty > Professor of Psychology > Psychology Program Co-Director > SERG Director > Social Science Department > LaGuardia Community College, CUNY > 718-482-5796 > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190827/4e606355/attachment.html From larabeaty@gmail.com Tue Aug 27 07:54:57 2019 From: larabeaty@gmail.com (Lara Beaty) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 10:54:57 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> <5cc80d54-9aed-efbd-f826-1ba8595dd96b@marxists.org> Message-ID: <911CFFC9-D9BB-4C1B-B990-7FE2CE7EF270@gmail.com> Thank you for the references! Greg, the most vulnerable students are ones I can?t get to participate in my research, so most of my understanding of them comes from the classroom. They do not speak, they do not ask for help or clarification, and though they do some of the work, they do it half-heartedly. Sometimes, I can make a small connection that can turn things around, but only if I?m on top of it and not distracted by other students the other demands at the college. One student told me she couldn?t present in front of the class, and so she presented to me in my office, and we talked a lot then about her severe anxiety, but she didn?t continue the relationship, and I don?t know what happened after the semester. They are afraid to connect or care. One student, whom I got to participate in my research, remained quiet, sharing little, but showing up, and who, I learned at one point, didn?t have money to come to meetings, so I gave him a metrocard with a little money, and I had hopes but he drifted away. Another man, who was an older vet, came to research group meetings out of loneliness. He never participated in discussions of the research itself but talked a lot about his frustrations with college and not being able to do math (the other students? responses to him were interesting too), but he kept coming back to meetings anyway, happy to be listened to by young people. He was ready to graduate but couldn?t complete the math requirement so he left, and then he was hit by a car and died. It?s not a lot to get a clear pattern from, but my difficulty connecting with them is consistent, and when I can connect, they have difficulties finding value in the activities we?re doing. So identity and (lack of) agency have seemed to be the most useful concepts. Perhaps because it is mostly psychology majors, I?ve found a surprising number of students wanting to talk about their diagnoses or their parents? diagnoses, which they cling to. The students who are angry are the ones who want to talk about contradictions in college, and they represent a different kind of vulnerability, but I worry about them less. Best, Lara > On Aug 27, 2019, at 9:42 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Lara, > You said this which got me thinking: > ?I talk with students a lot about the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not.? > > I wonder if you have much insight about why the less motivated and vulnerable students are not eager to engage in the conversation about the object of college? Maybe you?ve a asked them and can share some of their responses. > > I?m curious as to what is going on there. > > Greg > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 10:36 AM Lara Beaty > wrote: > Andy, > > I like the focus on particular activities that you suggest. I have designed and teach a First Year Seminar in Psychology in which I like to try out different activities to see what will connect with different students, but I still tend to be a little too abstract. It is a great course for putting theory into practice! I talk with students a lot about the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not. > > For my research, I?ve explored a little the history of how politicians speak about college and wondered how important this might be to understanding student development. This discussion has led me to think about how intrinsic motivation or enjoyment or, for that matter, ?development? tends to be viewed as important only for upper classes?how these concepts are cultural tools used to shape and sustain inequality while appearing to be abstract and neutral. The administration at my college loves Carol Dweck?s concept of growth mindset but also wants to control the direction of student growth, directing it away from the political and rebellious. > > Most of my students have no real concept of what college is, I suspect. > > Best, > Lara > >> On Aug 26, 2019, at 3:29 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >> >> Thanks for your very interesting observations, Lara. >> >> I'd like to suggest a way of seeing what is intrinsic to college education, of how and why joy can be derived from learning a fact of history, a principle of nursing, the novelty of a particular author, or whatever. What makes it enjoyable? What is specific about this pleasure which is distinct from the pleasure of watching a movie or playing a computer game? >> >> What is the object of College? At the lowest level of ethical development (above "Mum made me go!") it is the intention of gaining a job certificate for the welfare obtained by means of a wage.Instrumental from beginning to end. Nowadays, many governments conceive of colleges in a similarly instrumental way - to generate labour power to work in enterprises to generate profits. Few governments really understand the idea education in the humanities and sciences in the intention of raising the quality of social life. >> >> Likewise, it is anticipation of participating in projects in which they will take a real interest in their working life which offers the possibility of gaining intrinsic joy from learning about various facts, principles, methods, innovations, etc., so later to be able to further the profession, raise the quality of social life, improve the lives of ill people, etc. On both sides it implies a mature conception of what college is for. >> >> If that doesn't help, either they're not ready for college or the college is not offering something in which it is possible to get interested in. >> Andy >> Andy Blunden >> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >> On 26/08/2019 3:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: >>> Hi All. >>> >>> ... >>> >>> When I?m teaching community college students, however, the simplicity of the terms is a useful tool for helping students think about why they are in college, given that most of them have never been exposed in any significant way to the idea of doing college for the simple purpose of knowing more and creating possibilities for new ways of thinking. I keep hoping to help them find some joy in learning and development. >>> >>> Best, >>> Lara >>> >>> >>> > > Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty > Professor of Psychology > Psychology Program Co-Director > SERG Director > Social Science Department > LaGuardia Community College, CUNY > 718-482-5796 > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson __________ ?It is a tragedy what has happened to my country and my people. But the biggest damage is what?s been done to our hearts. We don?t even cry anymore when we hear of death. We have lived with the abnormal so long it?s become normal. Our hearts have gone numb.? ?Melody Lynn Beattie, Stop Being Mean to Yourself -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190827/7a8e6ee8/attachment.html From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Aug 27 09:00:27 2019 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 10:00:27 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: <911CFFC9-D9BB-4C1B-B990-7FE2CE7EF270@gmail.com> References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> <5cc80d54-9aed-efbd-f826-1ba8595dd96b@marxists.org> <911CFFC9-D9BB-4C1B-B990-7FE2CE7EF270@gmail.com> Message-ID: Lara, Your note was truly heartbreaking. From the students who are afraid to connect or care to the student who attended lab meetings for the sense of community but then was hit by a car and died (and particularly poignant given the Beattie quote at the end). But heartbreaking as it was, I think these are stories that need to be told - perhaps even more so than the research proper that you are doing (with no disrespect intended toward your research). I suspect that you could tell us a lot more about each of these students (and perhaps there are some that you might not be able to say so much about but that may be very telling in itself). So why not find a way to tell these stories? There are lots of academic outlets that would accept this kind of qualitative/descriptive/narrative detail without worrying about the theory of things. Chronicle of Higher Ed would seem a natural place to get a conversation going about students' experiences at community colleges. And, of course there are non-academic outlets since you'll easily get ten times the readership. Regarding the issues that you raise, one humble suggestion from far away (the worst place from which to make suggestions), I wonder if, for some at least, a Holzman-ian or similar approach might be useful? (apologies for leaving out Fred Newman and others by naming it as such). I wonder if rather than asking them to communicate in the language of the classroom, allow them to communicate artistically. And if not in on-stage performance, then in poetry or prose or painting or sculpture. Anything to get them out of that jail cell of academic language of the classroom and which makes so many so mute. [And just to be clear, I understand that there are no magic bullets and the assumptions that I have that lie behind this suggestion are probably at least 60% wrong. I also appreciate the basic sociocultural insight that these challenges are intractable problems that have more to do with the world that your students live in than with the students themselves in any psychologistic/individualistic sense. So, as they say, ...with a grain of salt.] In sympathy and sadness, greg On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 8:57 AM Lara Beaty wrote: > Thank you for the references! > > Greg, the most vulnerable students are ones I can?t get to participate in > my research, so most of my understanding of them comes from the classroom. > They do not speak, they do not ask for help or clarification, and though > they do some of the work, they do it half-heartedly. Sometimes, I can > make a small connection that can turn things around, but only if I?m on top > of it and not distracted by other students the other demands at the > college. One student told me she couldn?t present in front of the class, > and so she presented to me in my office, and we talked a lot then about her > severe anxiety, but she didn?t continue the relationship, and I don?t know > what happened after the semester. They are afraid to connect or care. > > One student, whom I got to participate in my research, remained quiet, > sharing little, but showing up, and who, I learned at one point, didn?t > have money to come to meetings, so I gave him a metrocard with a little > money, and I had hopes but he drifted away. Another man, who was an older > vet, came to research group meetings out of loneliness. He never > participated in discussions of the research itself but talked a lot about > his frustrations with college and not being able to do math (the other > students? responses to him were interesting too), but he kept coming back > to meetings anyway, happy to be listened to by young people. He was ready > to graduate but couldn?t complete the math requirement so he left, and then > he was hit by a car and died. It?s not a lot to get a clear pattern from, > but my difficulty connecting with them is consistent, and when I can > connect, they have difficulties finding value in the activities we?re > doing. So identity and (lack of) agency have seemed to be the most useful > concepts. Perhaps because it is mostly psychology majors, I?ve found a > surprising number of students wanting to talk about their diagnoses or > their parents? diagnoses, which they cling to. The students who are angry > are the ones who want to talk about contradictions in college, and they > represent a different kind of vulnerability, but I worry about them less. > > Best, > Lara > > > On Aug 27, 2019, at 9:42 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > Lara, > You said this which got me thinking: > ?I talk with students a lot about the object of college and find some of > them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more vulnerable, less > motivated students are not.? > > I wonder if you have much insight about why the less motivated and > vulnerable students are not eager to engage in the conversation about the > object of college? Maybe you?ve a asked them and can share some of their > responses. > > I?m curious as to what is going on there. > > Greg > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 10:36 AM Lara Beaty wrote: > >> Andy, >> >> I like the focus on particular activities that you suggest. I have >> designed and teach a First Year Seminar in Psychology in which I like to >> try out different activities to see what will connect with different >> students, but I still tend to be a little too abstract. It is a great >> course for putting theory into practice! I talk with students a lot about >> the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this >> conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not. >> >> For my research, I?ve explored a little the history of how politicians >> speak about college and wondered how important this might be to >> understanding student development. This discussion has led me to think >> about how intrinsic motivation or enjoyment or, for that matter, >> ?development? tends to be viewed as important only for upper classes?how >> these concepts are cultural tools used to shape and sustain inequality >> while appearing to be abstract and neutral. The administration at my >> college loves Carol Dweck?s concept of growth mindset but also wants to >> control the direction of student growth, directing it away from the >> political and rebellious. >> >> Most of my students have no real concept of what college is, I suspect. >> >> Best, >> Lara >> >> On Aug 26, 2019, at 3:29 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Thanks for your very interesting observations, Lara. >> >> I'd like to suggest a way of seeing what is intrinsic to college >> education, of how and why joy can be derived from learning a fact of >> history, a principle of nursing, the novelty of a particular author, or >> whatever. What makes it enjoyable? What is specific about this pleasure >> which is distinct from the pleasure of watching a movie or playing a >> computer game? >> >> What is the object of College? At the lowest level of ethical development >> (above "Mum made me go!") it is the intention of gaining a job certificate >> for the welfare obtained by means of a wage.Instrumental from beginning to >> end. Nowadays, many governments conceive of colleges in a similarly >> instrumental way - to generate labour power to work in enterprises to >> generate profits. Few governments really understand the idea education in >> the humanities and sciences in the intention of raising the quality of >> social life. >> >> Likewise, it is anticipation of participating in projects in which they >> will take a real interest in their working life which offers the >> possibility of gaining intrinsic joy from learning about various facts, >> principles, methods, innovations, etc., so later to be able to further the >> profession, raise the quality of social life, improve the lives of ill >> people, etc. On both sides it implies a mature conception of what college >> is *for*. >> >> If that doesn't help, either they're not ready for college or the college >> is not offering something in which it is possible to get interested in. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >> On 26/08/2019 3:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: >> >> Hi All. >> >> ... >> >> When I?m teaching community college students, however, the simplicity of >> the terms is a useful tool for helping students think about why they are in >> college, given that most of them have never been exposed in any significant >> way to the idea of doing college for the simple purpose of knowing more and >> creating possibilities for new ways of thinking. I keep hoping to help them >> find some joy in learning and development. >> >> Best, >> Lara >> >> >> >> >> Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty >> Professor of Psychology >> Psychology Program Co-Director >> SERG Director >> Social Science Department >> LaGuardia Community College, CUNY >> 718-482-5796 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > __________ > ?It is a tragedy what has happened to my country and my people. But the > biggest damage is what?s been done to our hearts. We don?t even cry > anymore when we hear of death. We have lived with the abnormal so long it?s > become normal. Our hearts have gone numb.? > ?Melody Lynn Beattie, *Stop Being Mean to Yourself* > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190827/826a4b26/attachment.html From larabeaty@gmail.com Tue Aug 27 09:24:40 2019 From: larabeaty@gmail.com (Lara Beaty) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 12:24:40 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic / Extrinsic Motivation In-Reply-To: References: <8d1a004a-4910-f012-5547-0d3704f9b37e@marxists.org> <63131082-E755-474D-97E9-70530FF7E4CE@gmail.com> <5cc80d54-9aed-efbd-f826-1ba8595dd96b@marxists.org> <911CFFC9-D9BB-4C1B-B990-7FE2CE7EF270@gmail.com> Message-ID: <81193BF3-5A22-45A9-A197-549A717240AB@gmail.com> Greg, Doing justice to their stories and being in a place to tell them well is part of what holds me back. Which versions of their stories do I tell? Interestingly, I was just speaking with Carrie Lobman about similar ideas for the classroom (an advantage of being in NYC) and am trying to organize to have her to come to my college. I take your advice to heart. Best, Lara > On Aug 27, 2019, at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Lara, > > Your note was truly heartbreaking. From the students who are afraid to connect or care to the student who attended lab meetings for the sense of community but then was hit by a car and died (and particularly poignant given the Beattie quote at the end). > > But heartbreaking as it was, I think these are stories that need to be told - perhaps even more so than the research proper that you are doing (with no disrespect intended toward your research). I suspect that you could tell us a lot more about each of these students (and perhaps there are some that you might not be able to say so much about but that may be very telling in itself). So why not find a way to tell these stories? There are lots of academic outlets that would accept this kind of qualitative/descriptive/narrative detail without worrying about the theory of things. Chronicle of Higher Ed would seem a natural place to get a conversation going about students' experiences at community colleges. And, of course there are non-academic outlets since you'll easily get ten times the readership. > > Regarding the issues that you raise, one humble suggestion from far away (the worst place from which to make suggestions), I wonder if, for some at least, a Holzman-ian or similar approach might be useful? (apologies for leaving out Fred Newman and others by naming it as such). I wonder if rather than asking them to communicate in the language of the classroom, allow them to communicate artistically. And if not in on-stage performance, then in poetry or prose or painting or sculpture. Anything to get them out of that jail cell of academic language of the classroom and which makes so many so mute. > > [And just to be clear, I understand that there are no magic bullets and the assumptions that I have that lie behind this suggestion are probably at least 60% wrong. I also appreciate the basic sociocultural insight that these challenges are intractable problems that have more to do with the world that your students live in than with the students themselves in any psychologistic/individualistic sense. So, as they say, ...with a grain of salt.] > > In sympathy and sadness, > greg > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 8:57 AM Lara Beaty > wrote: > Thank you for the references! > > Greg, the most vulnerable students are ones I can?t get to participate in my research, so most of my understanding of them comes from the classroom. They do not speak, they do not ask for help or clarification, and though they do some of the work, they do it half-heartedly. Sometimes, I can make a small connection that can turn things around, but only if I?m on top of it and not distracted by other students the other demands at the college. One student told me she couldn?t present in front of the class, and so she presented to me in my office, and we talked a lot then about her severe anxiety, but she didn?t continue the relationship, and I don?t know what happened after the semester. They are afraid to connect or care. > > One student, whom I got to participate in my research, remained quiet, sharing little, but showing up, and who, I learned at one point, didn?t have money to come to meetings, so I gave him a metrocard with a little money, and I had hopes but he drifted away. Another man, who was an older vet, came to research group meetings out of loneliness. He never participated in discussions of the research itself but talked a lot about his frustrations with college and not being able to do math (the other students? responses to him were interesting too), but he kept coming back to meetings anyway, happy to be listened to by young people. He was ready to graduate but couldn?t complete the math requirement so he left, and then he was hit by a car and died. It?s not a lot to get a clear pattern from, but my difficulty connecting with them is consistent, and when I can connect, they have difficulties finding value in the activities we?re doing. So identity and (lack of) agency have seemed to be the most useful concepts. Perhaps because it is mostly psychology majors, I?ve found a surprising number of students wanting to talk about their diagnoses or their parents? diagnoses, which they cling to. The students who are angry are the ones who want to talk about contradictions in college, and they represent a different kind of vulnerability, but I worry about them less. > > Best, > Lara > > >> On Aug 27, 2019, at 9:42 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: >> >> Lara, >> You said this which got me thinking: >> ?I talk with students a lot about the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not.? >> >> I wonder if you have much insight about why the less motivated and vulnerable students are not eager to engage in the conversation about the object of college? Maybe you?ve a asked them and can share some of their responses. >> >> I?m curious as to what is going on there. >> >> Greg >> >> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 10:36 AM Lara Beaty > wrote: >> Andy, >> >> I like the focus on particular activities that you suggest. I have designed and teach a First Year Seminar in Psychology in which I like to try out different activities to see what will connect with different students, but I still tend to be a little too abstract. It is a great course for putting theory into practice! I talk with students a lot about the object of college and find some of them eager to engage in this conversation, but the more vulnerable, less motivated students are not. >> >> For my research, I?ve explored a little the history of how politicians speak about college and wondered how important this might be to understanding student development. This discussion has led me to think about how intrinsic motivation or enjoyment or, for that matter, ?development? tends to be viewed as important only for upper classes?how these concepts are cultural tools used to shape and sustain inequality while appearing to be abstract and neutral. The administration at my college loves Carol Dweck?s concept of growth mindset but also wants to control the direction of student growth, directing it away from the political and rebellious. >> >> Most of my students have no real concept of what college is, I suspect. >> >> Best, >> Lara >> >>> On Aug 26, 2019, at 3:29 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for your very interesting observations, Lara. >>> >>> I'd like to suggest a way of seeing what is intrinsic to college education, of how and why joy can be derived from learning a fact of history, a principle of nursing, the novelty of a particular author, or whatever. What makes it enjoyable? What is specific about this pleasure which is distinct from the pleasure of watching a movie or playing a computer game? >>> >>> What is the object of College? At the lowest level of ethical development (above "Mum made me go!") it is the intention of gaining a job certificate for the welfare obtained by means of a wage.Instrumental from beginning to end. Nowadays, many governments conceive of colleges in a similarly instrumental way - to generate labour power to work in enterprises to generate profits. Few governments really understand the idea education in the humanities and sciences in the intention of raising the quality of social life. >>> >>> Likewise, it is anticipation of participating in projects in which they will take a real interest in their working life which offers the possibility of gaining intrinsic joy from learning about various facts, principles, methods, innovations, etc., so later to be able to further the profession, raise the quality of social life, improve the lives of ill people, etc. On both sides it implies a mature conception of what college is for. >>> >>> If that doesn't help, either they're not ready for college or the college is not offering something in which it is possible to get interested in. >>> Andy >>> Andy Blunden >>> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >>> On 26/08/2019 3:33 am, Lara Beaty wrote: >>>> Hi All. >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> When I?m teaching community college students, however, the simplicity of the terms is a useful tool for helping students think about why they are in college, given that most of them have never been exposed in any significant way to the idea of doing college for the simple purpose of knowing more and creating possibilities for new ways of thinking. I keep hoping to help them find some joy in learning and development. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Lara >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> Dr. Lara Margaret Beaty >> Professor of Psychology >> Psychology Program Co-Director >> SERG Director >> Social Science Department >> LaGuardia Community College, CUNY >> 718-482-5796 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > __________ > ?It is a tragedy what has happened to my country and my people. But the biggest damage is what?s been done to our hearts. We don?t even cry anymore when we hear of death. We have lived with the abnormal so long it?s become normal. Our hearts have gone numb.? > ?Melody Lynn Beattie, Stop Being Mean to Yourself > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson __________ Men, poor weak creatures, have not the courage to pay for their sins themselves: they place them upon one who is sinless. -Nikos Kazantzakis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20190827/30a06b30/attachment-0001.html