[Xmca-l] Re: language and music
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Fri Nov 30 20:09:20 PST 2018
But James, semiotics in the Peircean sense is not language.
When a chimpanzee cries out in fear, he is not intending to
alert his friend, and is no more consciously aware of
screaming in fear than he is of raising the hackles on the
back of his neck. Nonetheless, as you say, the other chimps
will respond in emotion and behaviour as if they had been
intentionally warned. This kind of seeming-communication is
almost universal in the animal world,
So the first precondition for a behaviour to function as an
element of language is conscious control of the given
behaviour. Otherwise it is just action and reaction. I
understand from Corballis that chimpanzees do not have
conscious control over their vocalisations, but they do have
conscious control over their hands. It is for *this* reason
that chimps can do rudimentary signing but cannot do
rudimentary speech - over and above the limitations of their
larynx, which are not altogether insurmountable.
There is still a step from consciously controlled movements
of the hands, body and face for the purpose of grasping,
walking, eating or whatever, and re-purposing the same
controlled movements for semiotic purposes. But for a social
species, you are at least half-way there.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 1/12/2018 12:53 am, James Ma wrote:
> Semiotically speaking, gesture is not a slippery concept;
> non-gesture manifests itself as a kind of gesture. Human
> beings are biologically social and socially biological,
> and their relationships can't be not semiotic. I'm
> watching you watching me watching you - the way you look
> at me affects the way I look at you. We can't stop
> sending, getting signals to and from each other, verbally
> or non-verbally, voluntarily or involuntarily - this is
> semiotically /and/ linguistically splendid! My point is
> that any non-verbal gesture as a non-linguistic sign has
> the word-forming potential, capable of being transcended
> into language as a system of signification. As Barthes put
> it, "to perceive what a substance signifies is inevitably
> to fall back in the individuation of language: there is no
> meaning which is not designated, and the world of
> signifieds is none other than that of language".
>
> James
>
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 18:58, HENRY SHONERD
> <hshonerd@gmail.com <mailto:hshonerd@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> James,
> This conversation has been so satisfying I don’t want
> to let go of it, so I hope I am not tiring you or
> others with all the connections I find. But, in the
> spirit of Alfredo’s post, I’ll just keep on talking
> and remark on how the duck tail hair cut is a rich
> gesture, an important concept in this subject line.
> Gesture is an aspect of communication present in many
> species. Hence, the importance of gesture as a
> rudimentary form of language with evolutionary results
> in human language. Maybe this is a reach, but I see
> the business of quotes in the subject line now taking
> place (Anna Stetsenko and Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont,
> contributing right now) on the last chapter of
> Vygotsky’s Speech and Language as an issue of gesture.
> Language, written language in this case, is limited in
> its ability to provide nuance. Writing without quotes
> “gestured”, pointed to to author sources familar in
> the day that Vygotsky wrote, such that quotes were not
> necessary. Dan Slobin, psycholinguist at Univ of Calf,
> wrote that two charges of language where in “tension”:
> 1) make yourself clear and 2) get it said before
> losing the thread of thinking and talking. Gesture, I
> would like to argue, is an aspect of discourse that
> helps to address this tension. A turn (in discourse)
> is a gesture, with temporal constraints that belie the
> idea that a single turn can ever be totally clear in
> and of itself. Writing, as we are doing now, is always
> dialogic, even a whole book, is a turn in discourse.
> And we keep on posting our turns.
> Henry
>
>
>> On Nov 29, 2018, at 8:56 AM, James Ma
>> <jamesma320@gmail.com <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Henry, Elvis Presley is spot on for this subject line!
>>
>> The ducktail hairstyle is fabulous. Funnily
>> enough, it is what my brother would always like his
>> 9-year-old son to have because he has much thicker
>> hair than most boys. Unfortunately last year the boy
>> had a one-day show off in the classroom and
>> was ticked off by the school authority (in
>> China). However, my brother has managed to
>> restore the ducktail twice a year during the
>> boy's long school holiday in winter and summer!
>>
>> I suppose the outlines of conversation are
>> predictable due to participants' intersubjective
>> awareness of the subject. Yet, the nuances of
>> conversation (just like each individual's ducktail
>> unique to himself) are unpredictable because of the
>> waywardness of our mind. What's more,
>> such nuances create the fluidity of conversation
>> which makes it difficult (or even unnecessary)
>> to predict what comes next - this is perhaps the
>> whole point that keeps us talking, as Alfredo pointed
>> out earlier.
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 22:19, HENRY SHONERD
>> <hshonerd@gmail.com <mailto:hshonerd@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Back at you, James. The images of the mandarin
>> drake reminded me of a hair style popularin the
>> late 50s when I was in high school (grades 9-12):
>> ducktail haircuts images
>> <https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=ducktail+haircuts+images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8>.
>> One of the photos in the link is of Elvis
>> Presley, an alpha male high school boys sought to
>> emulate. Note that some of the photos are of
>> women, interesting in light of issues of gender
>> fluidity these days. I don’t remember when women
>> started taking on the hair style. Since I
>> mentioned Elvis Presley, this post counts as
>> relevant to the subject line! Ha!
>> Henry
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 28, 2018, at 7:39 AM, James Ma
>>> <jamesma320@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you Henry.
>>> More on mandarin duck, just thought you might
>>> like to see:
>>> https://www.livingwithbirds.com/tweetapedia/21-facts-on-mandarin-duck
>>>
>>> HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:hshonerd@gmail.com>> 于 2018年11月27日周二
>>> 19:30写道：
>>>
>>> What a beautiful photo, James, and providing
>>> it is a move on this subject line that
>>> instantiates nicely Gee’s conception of
>>> discourse. Thanks for your thoughtful and
>>> helpful response.
>>> Henry
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 27, 2018, at 11:11 AM, James Ma
>>>> <jamesma320@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Henry, thanks for the info on Derek
>>>> Bickerton. One of the interesting things is
>>>> his conception of displacement as the
>>>> hallmark of language, whether iconic,
>>>> indexical or symbolic. In the case of
>>>> Chinese language, the sounds are
>>>> decontextualised or sublimated over time to
>>>> become something more integrated into the
>>>> words themselves as ideographs. Some of
>>>> Bickerton's ideas are suggestive of the
>>>> study of protolanguage as an /a priori
>>>> /process, involving scrupulous deduction.
>>>> This reminds me of methods used in
>>>> diachronic linguistics, which I felt are
>>>> relevant to CHAT just as much as those used
>>>> in synchronic linguistics.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding "intermental" and "intramental",
>>>> I can see your point. In fact I don't take
>>>> Vygotsky's "interpsychological" and
>>>> "intrapsychological" categories to
>>>> be dichotomies or binary opposites.
>>>> Whenever it comes to their relationship, I
>>>> tend to have a post-structuralism imagery
>>>> present in my mind, particularly related to
>>>> a Derridean stance for the conception of
>>>> ideas (i.e. any idea is not entirely
>>>> distinct from other ideas in terms of the
>>>> "thing itself"; rather, it entails a
>>>> supplement of the other idea which
>>>> is already embedded in the self).
>>>> Vygotsky's two categories are relational
>>>> (dialectical); they are somehow like a pair
>>>> of mandarin ducks (see attached image). I
>>>> also like to think that each of these
>>>> categories is both "discourse-in-context"
>>>> and "context-for-discourse" (here discourse
>>>> is in tune with James Gee's conception of
>>>> discourse as a patchwork of actions,
>>>> interactions, thoughts, feelings etc). I
>>>> recall Barbara Rogoff talking about there
>>>> being no boundary between the external and
>>>> the internal or the boundary being blurred
>>>> (during her seminar in the Graduate School
>>>> of Education at Bristol in 2001 while I
>>>> was doing my PhD).
>>>>
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 23:14, HENRY SHONERD
>>>> <hshonerd@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:hshonerd@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> James,
>>>> I think it was Derek Bickerton
>>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Bickerton)
>>>> who argued that “formal syntax”
>>>> developed from stringing together turns
>>>> in verbal interaction. The wiki on
>>>> Bickerton I have linked is short and
>>>> raises issues discussed in this subject
>>>> line and in the subject line on
>>>> Corballis. Bickerton brings me back to
>>>> the circularity of discourse and the
>>>> development of discourse competence.
>>>> Usage-based grammar. Bickerton’s idea
>>>> that complex grammar developed out of
>>>> the pidgins of our ancestors is
>>>> interesting. Do I see a chicken/egg
>>>> problem that for Vygotsky, “…the
>>>> intramental forms of semiotic mediation
>>>> is better understood by examining the
>>>> types of intermental processes”? I
>>>> don’t know. Could one say that inner
>>>> speech is the vehicle for turning
>>>> discourse into grammar? Bickerton
>>>> claimed a strong biological component
>>>> to human language, though I don’t
>>>> remember if he was a Chomskian. I hope
>>>> this is coherent thinking in the
>>>> context of our conversation. All that jazz.
>>>> Henry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 21, 2018, at 3:22 PM, James Ma
>>>>> <jamesma320@gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alfredo, I'd agree with Greg -
>>>>> intersubjectivity is relevant and
>>>>> pertinent here.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I see it, intersubjectivity
>>>>> transcends "outlines" or perhaps
>>>>> sublimates the "muddledness" and
>>>>> "unpredictability" of a conversation
>>>>> (as in Bateson's metalogue) into what
>>>>> Rommetveit termed the "draft of a
>>>>> contract". This is because shared
>>>>> understanding makes explicit and
>>>>> external what would otherwise remain
>>>>> implicit and internal. Rommetveit
>>>>> argues that private worlds can only be
>>>>> transcended up to a certain level and
>>>>> interlocutors need to agree
>>>>> upon the draft of a contract with
>>>>> which the communication can be
>>>>> initiated. In the spirit of Vygotsky,
>>>>> he uses a "pluralistic" and
>>>>> "social-cognitive" approach to human
>>>>> communication - and especially to the
>>>>> problem of linguistic mediation and
>>>>> regulation in interpsychological
>>>>> functioning, with reference to
>>>>> semantics, syntactics and
>>>>> pragmatics. For him, the intramental
>>>>> forms of semiotic mediation is better
>>>>> understood by examining the types of
>>>>> intermental processes.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think these intermental processes
>>>>> (just like intramental ones) can be
>>>>> boiled down or distilled to signs and
>>>>> symbols with which interlocutors are
>>>>> in harmony during a conversation or
>>>>> any other joint activities.
>>>>>
>>>>> James
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> */________________________________________________/*
>>>>>
>>>>> /*James Ma *Independent Scholar
>>>>> //https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa /
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 08:09, Alfredo
>>>>> Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@ils.uio.no
>>>>> <mailto:a.j.gil@ils.uio.no>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Henry's remarks about no directors
>>>>> and symphonic potential of
>>>>> conversation reminded me of
>>>>> G. Bateson's metalogue "why do
>>>>> things have outlines"
>>>>> (attached). Implicitly, it raises
>>>>> the question of units and
>>>>> elements, of how a song, a
>>>>> dance, a poem, a conversation, to
>>>>> make sense, they must have a
>>>>> recognizable outline, even in
>>>>> improvisation; they must be
>>>>> wholes, or suggest wholes. That
>>>>> makes them "predictable". And yet,
>>>>> when you are immersed in a
>>>>> conversation, the fact that you
>>>>> can never exactly predict what
>>>>> comes next is the whole point
>>>>> that keep us talking, dancing,
>>>>> drawing, etc!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alfredo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> *From:*
>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>> on behalf of HENRY SHONERD
>>>>> <hshonerd@gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:hshonerd@gmail.com>>
>>>>> *Sent:* 21 November 2018 06:22
>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: language
>>>>> and music
>>>>> I’d like to add to the call and
>>>>> response conversation that
>>>>> discourse, this conversation
>>>>> itself, is staged. There are
>>>>> performers and and an audience
>>>>> made up partly of performers
>>>>> themselves. How many are lurkers,
>>>>> as I am usually? This conversation
>>>>> has no director, but there are
>>>>> leaders. There is symphonic
>>>>> potential. And even gestural
>>>>> potential, making the chat a
>>>>> dance. All on line.:)
>>>>> Henry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 20, 2018, at 9:05 PM, mike
>>>>>> cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>>>> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For many years I used the work of
>>>>>> Ellen Dissenyake to teach comm
>>>>>> classes about
>>>>>> language/music/development. She
>>>>>> is quite unusual in ways that
>>>>>> might find interest here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://ellendissanayake.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 2:16 PM
>>>>>> James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Simangele,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In semiotic terms, whatever
>>>>>> each of the participants has
>>>>>> constructed internally is the
>>>>>> signified, i.e. his or her
>>>>>> understanding and
>>>>>> interpretation. When it is
>>>>>> vocalised (spoken out), it
>>>>>> becomes the signifier to the
>>>>>> listener. What's more, when
>>>>>> the participants work
>>>>>> together to compose a story
>>>>>> impromptu, each of their
>>>>>> signifiers turns into a new
>>>>>> signified – a shared,
>>>>>> newly-established
>>>>>> understanding, woven into the
>>>>>> fabric of meaning making.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By the way, in Chinese
>>>>>> language, words for singing
>>>>>> and dancing have long been
>>>>>> used inseparably. As I see
>>>>>> it, they are semiotically
>>>>>> indexed to, or adjusted to
>>>>>> allow for, the feelings,
>>>>>> emotions, actions and
>>>>>> interactions of a
>>>>>> consciousness who is
>>>>>> experiencing the singing and
>>>>>> dancing. Here are some idioms:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 酣歌醉舞- singing and dancing
>>>>>> rapturously
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 村歌社舞- dancingvillage and
>>>>>> singing club
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 燕歌赵舞- citizens of ancient Yan
>>>>>> and Zhao good at singing and
>>>>>> dancing, hence referring to
>>>>>> wonderful songs and dances
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 舞榭歌楼- a church or building
>>>>>> set up for singing and dancing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> James
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */________________________________________________/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /*James Ma *Independent
>>>>>> Scholar
>>>>>> //https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
>>>>>> /
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 at 19:08,
>>>>>> Simangele Mayisela
>>>>>> <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>>>>>> <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Colleagues,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This conversation is
>>>>>> getting even more
>>>>>> interesting, not that I
>>>>>> have an informed answer
>>>>>> for you Rob, I can only
>>>>>> think of the National
>>>>>> Anthems where people
>>>>>> stand still when singing,
>>>>>> even then this is
>>>>>> observed only in
>>>>>> international events.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other occasions when
>>>>>> people are likely not to
>>>>>> move when singing when
>>>>>> there is death and the
>>>>>> mood is sombre. Otherwise
>>>>>> singing and rhythmic body
>>>>>> movement, called dance
>>>>>> are a norm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This then makes me
>>>>>> wonder what this means
>>>>>> in terms of cognitive
>>>>>> functioning, in the light
>>>>>> of Vygotsky’s
>>>>>> developmental stages – of
>>>>>> language and thought.
>>>>>> Would the body movement
>>>>>> constitute the
>>>>>> externalisation of the
>>>>>> thoughts contained in the
>>>>>> music?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Helena – the video you
>>>>>> are relating about
>>>>>> reminds of the language
>>>>>> teaching or group therapy
>>>>>> technique- where a group
>>>>>> of learners (or
>>>>>> participants in OD
>>>>>> settings) are instructed
>>>>>> to tell a single coherent
>>>>>> and logical story as a
>>>>>> group. They all take
>>>>>> turns to say a sentence,
>>>>>> a sentence of not more
>>>>>> than 6 words (depending
>>>>>> on the instructor ), each
>>>>>> time linking your
>>>>>> sentence to the sentence
>>>>>> of previous articulator,
>>>>>> with the next person also
>>>>>> doing the same, until the
>>>>>> story sounds complete
>>>>>> with conclusion. More
>>>>>> important is that they
>>>>>> compose this story
>>>>>> impromptu, It with such
>>>>>> stories that group
>>>>>> dynamics are analysed,
>>>>>> and in group therapy
>>>>>> cases, collective
>>>>>> experiences of trauma are
>>>>>> shared. I suppose this
>>>>>> is an example of
>>>>>> cooperative activity,
>>>>>> although previously I
>>>>>> would have thought of it
>>>>>> as just an “activity”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simangele
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>]
>>>>>> *On Behalf Of
>>>>>> *robsub@ariadne.org.uk
>>>>>> <mailto:robsub@ariadne.org.uk>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, 16
>>>>>> November 2018 21:01
>>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind,
>>>>>> Culture, Activity
>>>>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>;
>>>>>> Helena Worthen
>>>>>> <helenaworthen@gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:helenaworthen@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re:
>>>>>> Michael C. Corballis
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember being told
>>>>>> once that many languages
>>>>>> do not have separate
>>>>>> words for singing and
>>>>>> dancing, because if you
>>>>>> sing you want to move -
>>>>>> until western
>>>>>> civilisation beats it out
>>>>>> of you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anybody know if this
>>>>>> is actually true, or is
>>>>>> it complete cod?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it is true, does it
>>>>>> have something to say
>>>>>> about the relationship
>>>>>> between the physical body
>>>>>> and the development of
>>>>>> speech?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 16/11/2018 17:29,
>>>>>> Helena Worthen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am very interested
>>>>>> in where this
>>>>>> conversation is
>>>>>> going. I remember
>>>>>> being in a Theories
>>>>>> of Literacy class in
>>>>>> which Glynda Hull,
>>>>>> the instructor,
>>>>>> showed a video of a
>>>>>> singing circle
>>>>>> somewhere in the
>>>>>> Amazon, where an
>>>>>> incredibly
>>>>>> complicated pattern
>>>>>> of musical phrases
>>>>>> wove in and out among
>>>>>> the singers underlaid
>>>>>> by drumming that
>>>>>> included turn-taking,
>>>>>> call and response,
>>>>>> you name it. Maybe 20
>>>>>> people were involved,
>>>>>> all pushing full
>>>>>> steam ahead to create
>>>>>> something together
>>>>>> that they all seemed
>>>>>> to know about but
>>>>>> wouldn’t happen until
>>>>>> they did it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Certainly someone has
>>>>>> studied the
>>>>>> relationship of
>>>>>> musical communication
>>>>>> (improvised or
>>>>>> otherwise), speech
>>>>>> and gesture? I have
>>>>>> asked musicians about
>>>>>> this and get blank
>>>>>> looks. Yet clearly
>>>>>> you can tell when you
>>>>>> listen to different
>>>>>> kinds of music, not
>>>>>> just Amazon drum and
>>>>>> chant circles, that
>>>>>> there is some kind of
>>>>>> speech - like
>>>>>> potential embedded
>>>>>> there. The Sonata
>>>>>> form is clearly
>>>>>> involves exposition
>>>>>> (they even use that
>>>>>> word).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example: the
>>>>>> soundtrack to the
>>>>>> Coen Brothers’ film
>>>>>> Fargo opens with a
>>>>>> musical theme that
>>>>>> says, as clearly as
>>>>>> if we were reading
>>>>>> aloud from some
>>>>>> children’s book, “I
>>>>>> am now going to tell
>>>>>> you a very strange
>>>>>> story that sounds
>>>>>> impossible but I
>>>>>> promise you every
>>>>>> word of it is
>>>>>> true…da-de-da-de-da.’
>>>>>> Only it doesn’t take
>>>>>> that many words.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (18) Fargo (1996) -
>>>>>> 'Fargo, North Dakota'
>>>>>> (Opening) scene
>>>>>> [1080] - YouTube
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Helena Worthen
>>>>>>
>>>>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:helenaworthen@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Berkeley, CA 94707
>>>>>> 510-828-2745
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
>>>>>> <http://helenaworthen.wordpress.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> skype: helena.worthen1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 16, 2018,
>>>>>> at 8:56 AM, HENRY
>>>>>> SHONERD
>>>>>> <hshonerd@gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:hshonerd@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy and Peter,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like the turn
>>>>>> taking principle
>>>>>> a lot. It links
>>>>>> language and
>>>>>> music very
>>>>>> nicely: call and
>>>>>> response. By
>>>>>> voice and ear.
>>>>>> While gesture is
>>>>>> linked to visual
>>>>>> art. In
>>>>>> face-to-face
>>>>>> conversation
>>>>>> there is this
>>>>>> rhythmically
>>>>>> entrained
>>>>>> interaction. It’s
>>>>>> not just
>>>>>> cooperative, it’s
>>>>>> verbal/gestural
>>>>>> art. Any human
>>>>>> work is
>>>>>> potentially a
>>>>>> work of art. Vera
>>>>>> John-Steiner and
>>>>>> Holbrook Mahn
>>>>>> have talked about
>>>>>> how conversation
>>>>>> can be a
>>>>>> co-construction
>>>>>> “at the speed of
>>>>>> thought”. Heady
>>>>>> stuff taking
>>>>>> part, or just
>>>>>> listening to,
>>>>>> this call and
>>>>>> response between
>>>>>> smart people.
>>>>>> And disheartening
>>>>>> and destructive
>>>>>> when we give up
>>>>>> on dialog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I write this,
>>>>>> I realize that
>>>>>> the prosodic
>>>>>> aspects of spoken
>>>>>> language
>>>>>> (intonation) are
>>>>>> gestural as well.
>>>>>> It’s simplistic
>>>>>> to restrict
>>>>>> gesture to visual
>>>>>> signals. But I
>>>>>> would say gesture
>>>>>> is prototypically
>>>>>> visual, an
>>>>>> accompaniment to
>>>>>> the voice. In
>>>>>> surfing the web,
>>>>>> one can find some
>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>> things on
>>>>>> paralanguage
>>>>>> which complicate
>>>>>> the distinction
>>>>>> between language
>>>>>> and gesture. I
>>>>>> think it speaks
>>>>>> to the embodiment
>>>>>> of language in
>>>>>> the senses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Henry
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 16,
>>>>>> 2018, at 7:00
>>>>>> AM, Peter
>>>>>> Feigenbaum
>>>>>> [Staff]
>>>>>> <pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>>> <mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I couldn't
>>>>>> agree more.
>>>>>> And thanks
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> introducing
>>>>>> me to the
>>>>>> notion
>>>>>> of delayed
>>>>>> gratification
>>>>>> as a
>>>>>> precondition
>>>>>> for sharing
>>>>>> and turn-taking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's a
>>>>>> feature I
>>>>>> hadn't
>>>>>> considered
>>>>>> before in
>>>>>> connection
>>>>>> with speech
>>>>>> communication.
>>>>>> It makes
>>>>>> sense that
>>>>>> each
>>>>>> participant
>>>>>> would need
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to exercise
>>>>>> patience in
>>>>>> order to wait
>>>>>> out someone
>>>>>> else's turn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much obliged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov
>>>>>> 16, 2018 at
>>>>>> 8:50 AM Andy
>>>>>> Blunden
>>>>>> <andyb@marxists.org
>>>>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting,
>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Corballis,
>>>>>> oddly in
>>>>>> my view,
>>>>>> places a
>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>> weight in
>>>>>> so-called
>>>>>> mirror
>>>>>> neurons
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> explain
>>>>>> perception
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> intentionality
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> others.
>>>>>> It seems
>>>>>> blindingly
>>>>>> obvious
>>>>>> to me
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> cooperative
>>>>>> activity,
>>>>>> specifically
>>>>>> participating
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> projects
>>>>>> in which
>>>>>> individuals
>>>>>> share a
>>>>>> common
>>>>>> not-present
>>>>>> object,
>>>>>> is a form
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> behaviour
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> begets
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> necessary
>>>>>> perceptive
>>>>>> abilities.
>>>>>> I have
>>>>>> also long
>>>>>> been of
>>>>>> the view
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> delayed
>>>>>> gratification,
>>>>>> as a
>>>>>> precondition
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> sharing
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> turn-taking,
>>>>>> as a
>>>>>> matter of
>>>>>> fact, is
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> important
>>>>>> aspect of
>>>>>> sociality
>>>>>> fostering
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> development
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> speech,
>>>>>> and the
>>>>>> upright
>>>>>> gait
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> frees the
>>>>>> hands for
>>>>>> carrying
>>>>>> food back
>>>>>> to camp
>>>>>> where it
>>>>>> can be
>>>>>> shared is
>>>>>> important.
>>>>>> None of
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> presupposes
>>>>>> tools,
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> cooperation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=itd0qPWlE7uAuyEX0ii8ohEoZegfdMAOOLf-YoaEqqs&s=-uwTjZDhHtJM2EFdBS-rXLTptADQdSGAcibaav-mhJw&e=>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> 17/11/2018
>>>>>> 12:36 am,
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>> Feigenbaum
>>>>>> [Staff]
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I
>>>>>> might
>>>>>> chime
>>>>>> in to
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> discussion:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> submit
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> key
>>>>>> cooperative
>>>>>> activity
>>>>>> underlying
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>> communication
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> *turn-taking*.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> activity
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> rule
>>>>>> came
>>>>>> into
>>>>>> being,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> once
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> did,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> activity
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> *exchanging*
>>>>>> utterances
>>>>>> became
>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> exchange
>>>>>> came
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> complementarity
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> speaking
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> listening
>>>>>> roles,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> activity
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> alternating
>>>>>> conversational
>>>>>> roles
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> mental
>>>>>> perspectives. Turn-taking
>>>>>> is a
>>>>>> key
>>>>>> process
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> human
>>>>>> development.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Thu,
>>>>>> Nov
>>>>>> 15,
>>>>>> 2018
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> 9:21
>>>>>> PM
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>> Blunden
>>>>>> <andyb@marxists.org
>>>>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oddly,
>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>> delivered
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> book
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> yesterday
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> currently
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> p.5.
>>>>>> Fortunately,
>>>>>> Corballis
>>>>>> provides
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> synopsis
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> book
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> end,
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> sneak-previewed
>>>>>> last
>>>>>> night.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>> thing
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> claim,
>>>>>> similar
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> Merlin
>>>>>> Donald,
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> goes
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> absurd
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> proto-humans
>>>>>> discovered
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> unique
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> wonderful
>>>>>> vocal
>>>>>> apparatus
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> decided
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> speech.
>>>>>> Clearly_there
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> rudimentary
>>>>>> language
>>>>>> before
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> humanly
>>>>>> possible_.
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> development,
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> behaviour
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> present
>>>>>> before
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> physiological
>>>>>> adaptations
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> facilitate
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> come
>>>>>> into
>>>>>> being.
>>>>>> I.e,
>>>>>> proto-humans
>>>>>> found
>>>>>> themselves
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> circumstances
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> made
>>>>>> sense
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> develop
>>>>>> interpersonal,
>>>>>> voluntary
>>>>>> communication,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> begin
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ability
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> mime
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> gesture,
>>>>>> make
>>>>>> facial
>>>>>> expressions
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> vocalisations
>>>>>> (all
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> BTW
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> reference
>>>>>> non-present
>>>>>> entities
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> situations)
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> activity
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> further
>>>>>> produces
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> conditions
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> development.
>>>>>> Eventually,
>>>>>> over
>>>>>> millions
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> years,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> vocal
>>>>>> apparatus
>>>>>> evolved
>>>>>> under
>>>>>> strong
>>>>>> selection
>>>>>> pressure
>>>>>> due
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> practice
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> non-speech
>>>>>> communication
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> integral
>>>>>> part
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> evolutionary
>>>>>> niche.
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> words,
>>>>>> rudimentary
>>>>>> wordless
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>> gradually
>>>>>> became
>>>>>> modern
>>>>>> speech,
>>>>>> along
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> accompanying
>>>>>> facial
>>>>>> expressions
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> hand
>>>>>> movements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> seems
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> that,
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> suggest,
>>>>>> collective
>>>>>> activity
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> part
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> those
>>>>>> conditions
>>>>>> fostering
>>>>>> communication
>>>>>> (something
>>>>>> found
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> nearest
>>>>>> evolutionary
>>>>>> cousins
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> elements
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> rudimentary
>>>>>> speech)
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> increasing
>>>>>> tool-using,
>>>>>> tool-making,
>>>>>> tool-giving
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> tool-instructing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>> Blunden
>>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=A3k5oeQ13zGCPUbWibdOb2KNZT4q__fLyCwugyULUDw&e=>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> 16/11/2018
>>>>>> 12:58
>>>>>> pm,
>>>>>> Arturo
>>>>>> Escandon
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear
>>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>> Tomasello
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> made
>>>>>> similar
>>>>>> claims,
>>>>>> grounding
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> surge
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> articulated
>>>>>> language
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> innate
>>>>>> co-operativism
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> collective
>>>>>> activity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/cambridge-handbook-of-child-language/90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cambridge.org_core_books_cambridge-2Dhandbook-2Dof-2Dchild-2Dlanguage_90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=vxJZooXRDYwTRrM4dzWBbLfUhF9HhmUvU3ouq6sbwPI&e=>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arturo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> Gmail
>>>>>> Mobile
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>> Feigenbaum,
>>>>>> Ph.D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Director,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Office
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> Institutional
>>>>>> Research
>>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fordham
>>>>>> University
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thebaud
>>>>>> Hall-202
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bronx,
>>>>>> NY 10458
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phone:
>>>>>> (718)
>>>>>> 817-2243
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fax:
>>>>>> (718)
>>>>>> 817-3817
>>>>>>
>>>>>> email:
>>>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>>> <mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>> Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Director,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Office of
>>>>>> Institutional
>>>>>> Research
>>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fordham
>>>>>> University
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phone: (718)
>>>>>> 817-2243
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fax: (718)
>>>>>> 817-3817
>>>>>>
>>>>>> email:
>>>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>>> <mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This communication is
>>>>>> intended for the
>>>>>> addressee only. It is
>>>>>> confidential. If you have
>>>>>> received this
>>>>>> communication in error,
>>>>>> please notify us
>>>>>> immediately and destroy
>>>>>> the original message. You
>>>>>> may not copy or
>>>>>> disseminate this
>>>>>> communication without the
>>>>>> permission of the
>>>>>> University. Only
>>>>>> authorised signatories
>>>>>> are competent to enter
>>>>>> into agreements on behalf
>>>>>> of the University and
>>>>>> recipients are thus
>>>>>> advised that the content
>>>>>> of this message may not
>>>>>> be legally binding on the
>>>>>> University and may
>>>>>> contain the personal
>>>>>> views and opinions of the
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>>>>>> University of the
>>>>>> Witwatersrand,
>>>>>> Johannesburg. All
>>>>>> agreements between the
>>>>>> University and outsiders
>>>>>> are subject to South
>>>>>> African Law unless the
>>>>>> University agrees in
>>>>>> writing to the contrary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <Mandarin Ducks.jpg>
>>>
>>
>
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