[Xmca-l] Re: language and music
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Thu Nov 22 16:51:15 PST 2018
https://www.smh.com.au/national/aussie-brain-mapper-discovers-part-of-brain-that-lets-you-play-piano-20181122-p50hlm.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 23/11/2018 6:31 am, James Ma wrote:
> Greg, your articles sound exciting. I'm going to read.
> Thank you for sharing. James
>
> Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>> 于 2018年11月22日周四
> 17:55写道：
>
> James and Helena (and others),
>
> Martin checked me offline for putting forward a notion
> of intersubjectivity that presumes that subjects are
> prior to intersubjectivity.
> I entirely agree with Martin's concern that a properly
> dialectical notion of the subject would recognize that
> intersubjectivity and subjectivity are mutually
> constitutive (and perhaps we should just speak of
> "intersubjects"?).
>
> In fact, I happen to have two papers (attached) that
> seek to forward such a notion of mutual constitution
> of subjectivity and intersubjectivity (and beyond).
> One is in the idiom of self and frame (Goffman 1973)
> and the other in the idiom of subjectivity and stance
> (Du Bois 2007 - more on that in a sec). In the stance
> paper, I draw on the notion of contract as it pertains
> to right (I even briefly cite Fichte and Hegel) as a
> way of trying to capture some of the ways that
> subjectivity is real-ized (Bakhtin speaks of subjects
> being "consummated") in the interstitial space between
> self and other (not just other subjects, but also
> bodies and things that can serve to take stances
> toward subjects), and as captured by Du Bois'
> undertheorized notion of "stance ownership" - which I
> seek to theorize in this paper.
>
> With regard to Bakhtin, I'd love to hear more. I'd
> note that John Du Bois' notion of dialogic syntax
> might be particularly relevant here. He draws on
> Bakhtin to make the case that syntax is fundamentally
> dialogical. I wonder if others are familiar and/or
> have any thoughts on this approach and how it might
> fit with Vygotsky's work?
>
> Helena, I didn't mean to hijack your intentions in
> bringing up Bakhtin - I wholeheartedly second a
> conversation (bad conversational participant that I
> am!) about Bakhtin!
>
> (and perhaps I should have added this to a different
> thread - I still find the asynchrony of listserves
> make it difficult to maintain "a conversation" in any
> traditional sense - chaining is normal in face-to-face
> conversations, but whereas in f2f conversations
> everyone more or less goes along with a single chain
> of topics (and the negotiation thereof is a big part
> of making conversations - and making subjects!) in
> listserve conversations, the chaining can spin off
> into many directions at once and the coherence of the
> conversation can quickly be lost (and the subjects
> with it!).)
>
> (And one last parenthetical note, in typing
> "listserve" I just realized how old fashioned we are!
> Are there other more contemporary mediated spaces out
> there where Vygotsky is being discussed? Might such
> conversational spaces allow for more involvement from
> and animation of a next generation of CHAT thinkers?
> Just wondering...).
>
> -greg
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 12:42 PM Helena Worthen
> <helenaworthen@gmail.com
> <mailto:helenaworthen@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Outlines? This sent me to my dog-eared (but lying
> on the shelf for 20 years) copy of /The Dialogic
> Imagination/, Michael Holquist’s collectiion of
> four essays by Bakhtin.
>
> So, on the topic of edges, outlines and
> constraints on the one hand, and coherence and
> wholeness on the other, I’d like to offer the
> concept of “utterance,” a speech act performed in
> order to generate, sooner or later, a
> counterstatement. (I’m cribbing from Holquist’s
> glossary on pg 434.) An utterance can be brief or
> long; the defining feature of it is that gets a
> response — it’s part of a dialog. A dialog can be
> you and me talking, or it can be an entire
> discourse; a discourse itself can be an utterance.
> Individual novels are utterances in the genre of
> novels, which Holquist says is “a horizon of
> expectations brought to bear on a certain class of
> text types…”
>
> Anyone else want to talk about Bahktin? Then we
> could talk about the way a song coheres and
> musical improvisation operates under a horizon of
> expectations, but come to think of it, does not
> generate a response.
>
> Something else: I’m still trying to learn
> Vietnamese. The CD I am listening to now, produced
> by the University of Social Sciences andHUmanities
> in HoChiMinh City, lists each track as a “song.”
> Thus, Track 1, “Excuse me, what is your name?”
> appears on the CD menu as “Song 1.”
>
> H
>
> Helena Worthen
> helenaworthen@gmail.com
> <mailto:helenaworthen@gmail.com>
> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
> <http://helenaworthen.wordpress.com>
> skype: helena.worthen1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Nov 21, 2018, at 12:07 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
>> <a.j.gil@ils.uio.no <mailto:a.j.gil@ils.uio.no>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Henry's remarks about no directors and symphonic
>> potential of conversation reminded me of
>> G. Bateson's metalogue "why do things have
>> outlines" (attached). Implicitly, it raises the
>> question of units and elements, of how a song, a
>> dance, a poem, a conversation, to make sense,
>> they must have a recognizable outline, even in
>> improvisation; they must be wholes, or suggest
>> wholes. That makes them "predictable". And yet,
>> when you are immersed in a conversation, the fact
>> that you can never exactly predict what comes
>> next is the whole point that keep us talking,
>> dancing, drawing, etc!
>>
>>
>> Alfredo
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on
>> behalf of HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com
>> <mailto:hshonerd@gmail.com>>
>> *Sent:* 21 November 2018 06:22
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: language and music
>> I’d like to add to the call and response
>> conversation that discourse, this conversation
>> itself, is staged. There are performers and and
>> an audience made up partly of performers
>> themselves. How many are lurkers, as I am
>> usually? This conversation has no director, but
>> there are leaders. There is symphonic potential.
>> And even gestural potential, making the chat a
>> dance. All on line.:)
>> Henry
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 20, 2018, at 9:05 PM, mike cole
>>> <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>> For many years I used the work of Ellen
>>> Dissenyake to teach comm classes about
>>> language/music/development. She is quite unusual
>>> in ways that might find interest here.
>>>
>>> https://ellendissanayake.com/
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 2:16 PM James Ma
>>> <jamesma320@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello Simangele,
>>>
>>> In semiotic terms, whatever each of the
>>> participants has constructed internally is
>>> the signified, i.e. his or her understanding
>>> and interpretation. When it is vocalised
>>> (spoken out), it becomes the signifier to
>>> the listener. What's more, when the
>>> participants work together to compose a
>>> story impromptu, each of their signifiers
>>> turns into a new signified – a shared,
>>> newly-established understanding, woven into
>>> the fabric of meaning making.
>>>
>>> By the way, in Chinese language, words for
>>> singing and dancing have long been used
>>> inseparably. As I see it, they are
>>> semiotically indexed to, or adjusted to
>>> allow for, the feelings, emotions, actions
>>> and interactions of a consciousness who is
>>> experiencing the singing and dancing. Here
>>> are some idioms:
>>>
>>> 酣歌醉舞- singing and dancing rapturously
>>>
>>> 村歌社舞 - dancing village and singing club
>>>
>>> 燕歌赵舞 - citizens of ancient Yan and Zhao good
>>> at singing and dancing, hence referring to
>>> wonderful songs and dances
>>>
>>> 舞榭歌楼- a church or building set up for
>>> singing and dancing
>>>
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> */________________________________________________/*
>>>
>>> /*James Ma *Independent Scholar
>>> //https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa /
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 at 19:08, Simangele
>>> Mayisela <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>>> <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Colleagues,
>>>
>>> This conversation is getting even more
>>> interesting, not that I have an informed
>>> answer for you Rob, I can only think of
>>> the National Anthems where people stand
>>> still when singing, even then this is
>>> observed only in international events.
>>>
>>> Other occasions when people are likely
>>> not to move when singing when there is
>>> death and the mood is sombre. Otherwise
>>> singing and rhythmic body movement,
>>> called dance are a norm.
>>>
>>> This then makes me wonder what this
>>> means in terms of cognitive functioning,
>>> in the light of Vygotsky’s developmental
>>> stages – of language and thought. Would
>>> the body movement constitute the
>>> externalisation of the thoughts
>>> contained in the music?
>>>
>>> Helena – the video you are relating
>>> about reminds of the language teaching
>>> or group therapy technique- where a
>>> group of learners (or participants in OD
>>> settings) are instructed to tell a
>>> single coherent and logical story as a
>>> group. They all take turns to say a
>>> sentence, a sentence of not more than 6
>>> words (depending on the instructor ),
>>> each time linking your sentence to the
>>> sentence of previous articulator, with
>>> the next person also doing the same,
>>> until the story sounds complete with
>>> conclusion. More important is that they
>>> compose this story impromptu, It with
>>> such stories that group dynamics are
>>> analysed, and in group therapy cases,
>>> collective experiences of trauma are
>>> shared. I suppose this is an example of
>>> cooperative activity, although
>>> previously I would have thought of it as
>>> just an “activity”
>>>
>>> Simangele
>>>
>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>]
>>> *On Behalf Of *robsub@ariadne.org.uk
>>> <mailto:robsub@ariadne.org.uk>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, 16 November 2018 21:01
>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>;
>>> Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:helenaworthen@gmail.com>>
>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis
>>>
>>> I remember being told once that many
>>> languages do not have separate words for
>>> singing and dancing, because if you sing
>>> you want to move - until western
>>> civilisation beats it out of you.
>>>
>>> Does anybody know if this is actually
>>> true, or is it complete cod?
>>>
>>> If it is true, does it have something to
>>> say about the relationship between the
>>> physical body and the development of speech?
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>> On 16/11/2018 17:29, Helena Worthen wrote:
>>>
>>> I am very interested in where this
>>> conversation is going. I remember
>>> being in a Theories of Literacy
>>> class in which Glynda Hull, the
>>> instructor, showed a video of a
>>> singing circle somewhere in the
>>> Amazon, where an incredibly
>>> complicated pattern of musical
>>> phrases wove in and out among the
>>> singers underlaid by drumming that
>>> included turn-taking, call and
>>> response, you name it. Maybe 20
>>> people were involved, all pushing
>>> full steam ahead to create something
>>> together that they all seemed to
>>> know about but wouldn’t happen until
>>> they did it.
>>>
>>> Certainly someone has studied the
>>> relationship of musical
>>> communication (improvised or
>>> otherwise), speech and gesture? I
>>> have asked musicians about this and
>>> get blank looks. Yet clearly you can
>>> tell when you listen to different
>>> kinds of music, not just Amazon drum
>>> and chant circles, that there is
>>> some kind of speech - like potential
>>> embedded there. The Sonata form is
>>> clearly involves exposition (they
>>> even use that word).
>>>
>>> For example: the soundtrack to the
>>> Coen Brothers’ film Fargo opens with
>>> a musical theme that says, as
>>> clearly as if we were reading aloud
>>> from some children’s book, “I am now
>>> going to tell you a very strange
>>> story that sounds impossible but I
>>> promise you every word of it is
>>> true…da-de-da-de-da.’ Only it
>>> doesn’t take that many words.
>>>
>>> (18) Fargo (1996) - 'Fargo, North
>>> Dakota' (Opening) scene [1080] - YouTube
>>>
>>> Helena Worthen
>>>
>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:helenaworthen@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
>>>
>>> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
>>>
>>> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
>>> <http://helenaworthen.wordpress.com/>
>>>
>>> skype: helena.worthen1
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 8:56 AM,
>>> HENRY SHONERD
>>> <hshonerd@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:hshonerd@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Andy and Peter,
>>>
>>> I like the turn taking principle
>>> a lot. It links language and
>>> music very nicely: call and
>>> response. By voice and ear.
>>> While gesture is linked to
>>> visual art. In face-to-face
>>> conversation there is this
>>> rhythmically entrained
>>> interaction. It’s not just
>>> cooperative, it’s
>>> verbal/gestural art. Any human
>>> work is potentially a work of
>>> art. Vera John-Steiner and
>>> Holbrook Mahn have talked about
>>> how conversation can be a
>>> co-construction “at the speed of
>>> thought”. Heady stuff taking
>>> part, or just listening to, this
>>> call and response between smart
>>> people. And disheartening and
>>> destructive when we give up on
>>> dialog.
>>>
>>> As I write this, I realize that
>>> the prosodic aspects of spoken
>>> language (intonation) are
>>> gestural as well. It’s
>>> simplistic to restrict gesture
>>> to visual signals. But I would
>>> say gesture is prototypically
>>> visual, an accompaniment to the
>>> voice. In surfing the web, one
>>> can find some interesting things
>>> on paralanguage which complicate
>>> the distinction between language
>>> and gesture. I think it speaks
>>> to the embodiment of language in
>>> the senses.
>>>
>>> Henry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 7:00 AM,
>>> Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]
>>> <pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>> <mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Andy,
>>>
>>> I couldn't agree more. And
>>> thanks for introducing me to
>>> the notion of delayed
>>> gratification as a
>>> precondition for sharing and
>>> turn-taking.
>>>
>>> That's a feature I hadn't
>>> considered before in
>>> connection with speech
>>> communication. It makes
>>> sense that each participant
>>> would need
>>>
>>> to exercise patience in
>>> order to wait out someone
>>> else's turn.
>>>
>>> Much obliged.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:50
>>> AM Andy Blunden
>>> <andyb@marxists.org
>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting, Peter.
>>>
>>> Corballis, oddly in my
>>> view, places a lot of
>>> weight in so-called
>>> mirror neurons to
>>> explain perception of
>>> the intentionality of
>>> others. It seems
>>> blindingly obvious to me
>>> that cooperative
>>> activity, specifically
>>> participating in
>>> projects in which
>>> individuals share a
>>> common not-present
>>> object, is a form of
>>> behaviour which begets
>>> the necessary perceptive
>>> abilities. I have also
>>> long been of the view
>>> that delayed
>>> gratification, as a
>>> precondition for sharing
>>> and turn-taking, as a
>>> matter of fact, is an
>>> important aspect of
>>> sociality fostering the
>>> development of speech,
>>> and the upright gait
>>> which frees the hands
>>> for carrying food back
>>> to camp where it can be
>>> shared is important.
>>> None of which
>>> presupposes tools, only
>>> cooperation.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=itd0qPWlE7uAuyEX0ii8ohEoZegfdMAOOLf-YoaEqqs&s=-uwTjZDhHtJM2EFdBS-rXLTptADQdSGAcibaav-mhJw&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 17/11/2018 12:36 am,
>>> Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> If I might chime in
>>> to this discussion:
>>>
>>> I submit that the
>>> key cooperative
>>> activity underlying
>>> speech communication
>>> is *turn-taking*. I
>>> don't know how that
>>> activity or rule
>>> came into being,
>>>
>>> but once it did, the
>>> activity of
>>> *exchanging*
>>> utterances became
>>> possible. And with
>>> exchange came the
>>> complementarity of
>>> speaking and
>>>
>>> listening roles, and
>>> the activity of
>>> alternating
>>> conversational roles
>>> and mental
>>> perspectives. Turn-taking
>>> is a key process in
>>> human development.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018
>>> at 9:21 PM Andy
>>> Blunden
>>> <andyb@marxists.org
>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Oddly, Amazon
>>> delivered the
>>> book to me
>>> yesterday and I
>>> am currently on
>>> p.5.
>>> Fortunately,
>>> Corballis
>>> provides a
>>> synopsis of his
>>> book at the end,
>>> which I
>>> sneak-previewed
>>> last night.
>>>
>>> The interesting
>>> thing to me is
>>> his claim,
>>> similar to that
>>> of Merlin
>>> Donald, which
>>> goes like this.
>>>
>>> It would be
>>> absurd to
>>> suggest that
>>> proto-humans
>>> discovered that
>>> they had this
>>> unique and
>>> wonderful vocal
>>> apparatus and
>>> decided to use
>>> it for speech.
>>> Clearly_there
>>> was rudimentary
>>> language before
>>> speech was
>>> humanly
>>> possible_. In
>>> development, a
>>> behaviour is
>>> always present
>>> before the
>>> physiological
>>> adaptations
>>> which facilitate
>>> it come into
>>> being. I.e,
>>> proto-humans
>>> found themselves
>>> in circumstances
>>> where it made
>>> sense to develop
>>> interpersonal,
>>> voluntary
>>> communication,
>>> and to begin
>>> with they used
>>> what they had -
>>> the ability to
>>> mime and
>>> gesture, make
>>> facial
>>> expressions and
>>> vocalisations
>>> (all of which
>>> BTW can
>>> reference
>>> non-present
>>> entities and
>>> situations) This
>>> is an activity
>>> which further
>>> produces the
>>> conditions for
>>> its own
>>> development.
>>> Eventually, over
>>> millions of
>>> years, the vocal
>>> apparatus
>>> evolved under
>>> strong selection
>>> pressure due to
>>> the practice of
>>> non-speech
>>> communication as
>>> an integral part
>>> of their
>>> evolutionary
>>> niche. In other
>>> words,
>>> rudimentary
>>> wordless speech
>>> gradually became
>>> modern speech,
>>> along with all
>>> the accompanying
>>> facial
>>> expressions and
>>> hand movements.
>>>
>>> It just seems to
>>> me that, as you
>>> suggest,
>>> collective
>>> activity must
>>> have been a part
>>> of those
>>> conditions
>>> fostering
>>> communication
>>> (something found
>>> in our nearest
>>> evolutionary
>>> cousins who also
>>> have the
>>> elements of
>>> rudimentary
>>> speech) - as
>>> was increasing
>>> tool-using,
>>> tool-making,
>>> tool-giving and
>>> tool-instructing.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=A3k5oeQ13zGCPUbWibdOb2KNZT4q__fLyCwugyULUDw&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16/11/2018
>>> 12:58 pm, Arturo
>>> Escandon wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Andy,
>>>
>>> Michael
>>> Tomasello
>>> has made
>>> similar
>>> claims,
>>> grounding
>>> the surge of
>>> articulated
>>> language on
>>> innate
>>> co-operativism
>>> and
>>> collective
>>> activity.
>>>
>>> https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/cambridge-handbook-of-child-language/90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cambridge.org_core_books_cambridge-2Dhandbook-2Dof-2Dchild-2Dlanguage_90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=vxJZooXRDYwTRrM4dzWBbLfUhF9HhmUvU3ouq6sbwPI&e=>
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Arturo
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Sent from
>>> Gmail Mobile
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>
>>> Director,
>>>
>>> Office of
>>> Institutional
>>> Research
>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>
>>> Fordham University
>>>
>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>
>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>
>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>
>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>
>>> email:
>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>> <mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>
>>> Director,
>>>
>>> Office of Institutional
>>> Research
>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>
>>> Fordham University
>>>
>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>
>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>
>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>
>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>
>>> email:
>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>> <mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>
>>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
> <http://greg.a.thompson.byu.edu>
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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