[Xmca-l] Re: language and music

Thu Nov 22 09:52:17 PST 2018

James and Helena (and others),

Martin checked me offline for putting forward a notion of intersubjectivity
that presumes that subjects are prior to intersubjectivity.
I entirely agree with Martin's concern that a properly dialectical notion
of the subject would recognize that intersubjectivity and subjectivity are
mutually constitutive (and perhaps we should just speak of
"intersubjects"?).

In fact, I happen to have two papers (attached) that seek to forward such a
notion of mutual constitution of subjectivity and intersubjectivity (and
beyond). One is in the idiom of self and frame (Goffman 1973) and the other
in the idiom of subjectivity and stance (Du Bois 2007 - more on that in a
sec). In the stance paper, I draw on the notion of contract as it pertains
to right (I even briefly cite Fichte and Hegel) as a way of trying to
capture some of the ways that subjectivity is real-ized (Bakhtin speaks of
subjects being "consummated") in the interstitial space between self and
other (not just other subjects, but also bodies and things that can serve
to take stances toward subjects), and as captured by Du Bois'
undertheorized notion of "stance ownership" - which I seek to theorize in
this paper.

With regard to Bakhtin, I'd love to hear more. I'd note that John Du Bois'
notion of dialogic syntax might be particularly relevant here. He draws on
Bakhtin to make the case that syntax is fundamentally dialogical. I wonder
if others are familiar and/or have any thoughts on this approach and how it
might fit with Vygotsky's work?

Helena, I didn't mean to hijack your intentions in bringing up Bakhtin - I
wholeheartedly second a conversation (bad conversational participant that I
am!) about Bakhtin!

(and perhaps I should have added this to a different thread - I still find
the asynchrony of listserves make it difficult to maintain "a conversation"
in any traditional sense - chaining is normal in face-to-face
conversations, but whereas in f2f conversations everyone more or less goes
along with a single chain of topics (and the negotiation thereof is a big
part of making conversations - and making subjects!) in listserve
conversations, the chaining can spin off into many directions at once and
the coherence of the conversation can quickly be lost (and the subjects
with it!).)

(And one last parenthetical note, in typing "listserve" I just realized how
old fashioned we are! Are there other more contemporary mediated spaces out
there where Vygotsky is being discussed? Might such conversational spaces
allow for more involvement from and animation of a next generation of CHAT
thinkers? Just wondering...).

-greg

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 12:42 PM Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Outlines?  This sent me to my dog-eared (but lying on the shelf for 20
> years) copy of *The Dialogic Imagination*, Michael Holquist’s collectiion
> of four essays by Bakhtin.
>
> So, on the topic of edges, outlines and constraints on the one hand, and
> coherence and wholeness on the other, I’d like to offer the concept of
> “utterance,” a speech act performed in order to generate, sooner or later,
> a counterstatement. (I’m cribbing from Holquist’s glossary on pg 434.) An
> utterance can be brief or long; the defining feature of it is that gets a
> response — it’s part of a dialog. A dialog can be you and me talking, or it
> can be an entire discourse; a discourse itself can be an utterance.
> Individual novels are utterances in the genre of novels, which Holquist
> says is “a horizon of expectations brought to bear on a certain class of
> text types…”
>
> Anyone else want to talk about Bahktin? Then we could talk about the way a
> song coheres and musical improvisation operates under a horizon of
> expectations, but come to think of it, does not generate a response.
>
> Something else: I’m still trying to learn Vietnamese. The CD I am
> listening to now, produced by the University of Social Sciences
> andHUmanities in HoChiMinh City, lists each track as a “song.” Thus, Track
> 1, “Excuse me, what is your name?” appears on the CD menu as “Song 1.”
>
> H
>
> Helena Worthen
> helenaworthen@gmail.com
> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
> skype: helena.worthen1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 21, 2018, at 12:07 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@ils.uio.no>
> wrote:
>
> Henry's remarks about no directors and symphonic potential of
> conversation reminded me of G. Bateson's metalogue "why do things have
> outlines" (attached). Implicitly, it raises the question of units and
> elements, of how a song, a dance, a poem, a conversation, to make sense,
> they must have a recognizable outline, even in improvisation; they must
> be wholes, or suggest wholes. That makes them "predictable". And yet, when
> you are immersed in a conversation, the fact that you can
> never exactly predict what comes next is the whole point that keep
> us talking, dancing, drawing, etc!
>
>
> Alfredo
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 21 November 2018 06:22
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: language and music
>
> I’d like to add to the call and response conversation that discourse, this
> conversation itself, is staged. There are performers and and an audience
> made up partly of performers themselves. How many are lurkers, as I am
> usually? This conversation has no director, but there are leaders. There is
> symphonic potential. And even gestural potential, making the chat a dance.
> All on line.:)
> Henry
>
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2018, at 9:05 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> For many years I used the work of Ellen Dissenyake to teach comm classes
> about language/music/development. She is quite unusual in ways that might
> find interest here.
>
> https://ellendissanayake.com/
>
> mike
>
> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 2:16 PM James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello Simangele,
>>
>> In semiotic terms, whatever each of the participants has constructed
>> internally is the signified, i.e. his or her understanding and
>> interpretation. When it is vocalised (spoken out), it becomes the signifier
>> to the listener. What's more, when the participants work together to
>> compose a story impromptu, each of their signifiers turns into a new
>> signified – a shared, newly-established understanding, woven into the
>> fabric of meaning making.
>>
>> By the way, in Chinese language, words for singing and dancing have long
>> been used inseparably. As I see it, they are semiotically indexed to, or
>> adjusted to allow for, the feelings, emotions, actions and interactions of
>> a consciousness who is experiencing the singing and dancing. Here are some
>> idioms:
>>
>> 酣歌醉舞 - singing and dancing rapturously
>>
>> 村歌社舞 - dancing village and singing club
>>
>> 燕歌赵舞 - citizens of ancient Yan and Zhao good at singing and dancing,
>> hence referring to wonderful songs and dances
>>
>> 舞榭歌楼 - a church or building set up for singing and dancing
>>
>>
>>
>> James
>>
>> *________________________________________________*
>>
>> *James Ma  Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
>> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa>   *
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 at 19:08, Simangele Mayisela <
>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Colleagues,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This conversation is getting even more interesting, not that I have an
>>> informed answer for you Rob, I can only think of the National Anthems where
>>> people stand still when singing, even then this is observed only in
>>> international events.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Other occasions when people are likely not to move when singing when
>>> there is death and the mood is sombre. Otherwise singing and rhythmic body
>>> movement, called dance are a norm.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This then makes me  wonder what this means in terms of cognitive
>>> functioning, in the light of Vygotsky’s developmental stages – of language
>>> and thought. Would the body movement constitute the externalisation of the
>>> thoughts contained in the music?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Helena – the video you are relating about reminds of the language
>>> teaching or group therapy technique- where a group of learners (or
>>> participants in OD settings) are instructed to tell a single coherent and
>>> logical story as a group. They all take turns to say a sentence, a sentence
>>> of not more than 6 words (depending on the instructor ), each time linking
>>> your sentence to the sentence of previous articulator, with the next person
>>> also doing the same, until the story sounds complete with conclusion. More
>>> important is that they compose this story impromptu, It with such stories
>>> that group dynamics are analysed, and in group therapy cases, collective
>>> experiences of trauma are shared.  I suppose this is an example of
>>> cooperative activity, although previously I would have thought of it as
>>> just an “activity”
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Simangele
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *robsub@ariadne.org.uk
>>> *Sent:* Friday, 16 November 2018 21:01
>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>;
>>> Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I remember being told once that many languages do not have separate
>>> words for singing and dancing, because if you sing you want to move - until
>>> western civilisation beats it out of you.
>>>
>>> Does anybody know if this is actually true, or is it complete cod?
>>>
>>> If it is true, does it have something to say about the relationship
>>> between the physical body and the development of speech?
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>> On 16/11/2018 17:29, Helena Worthen wrote:
>>>
>>> I am very interested in where this conversation is going. I remember
>>> being in a Theories of Literacy class in which Glynda Hull, the instructor,
>>> showed a video of a singing circle somewhere in the Amazon, where an
>>> incredibly complicated pattern of musical phrases wove in and out among the
>>> singers underlaid by drumming that included turn-taking, call and response,
>>> you name it. Maybe 20 people were involved, all pushing full steam ahead to
>>> create something together that they all seemed to know about but wouldn’t
>>> happen until they did it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Certainly someone has studied the relationship of musical communication
>>> (improvised or otherwise), speech and gesture? I have asked musicians about
>>> this and get blank looks. Yet clearly you can tell when you listen to
>>> different kinds of music, not just Amazon drum and chant circles, that
>>> there is some kind of speech - like potential embedded there. The Sonata
>>> form is clearly involves exposition (they even use that word).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For example: the soundtrack to the Coen Brothers’ film Fargo opens with
>>> a musical theme that says, as clearly as if we were reading aloud from some
>>> children’s book, “I am now going to tell you a very strange story that
>>> sounds impossible but I promise you every word of it is
>>> true…da-de-da-de-da.’ Only it doesn’t take that many words.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (18) Fargo (1996) - 'Fargo, North Dakota' (Opening) scene [1080] -
>>> YouTube
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Helena Worthen
>>>
>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
>>>
>>> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
>>>
>>> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
>>>
>>> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
>>>
>>> skype: helena.worthen1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 8:56 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy and Peter,
>>>
>>> I like the turn taking principle a lot. It links language and music very
>>> nicely: call and response. By voice and ear. While gesture is linked to
>>> visual art. In face-to-face conversation there is this rhythmically
>>> entrained interaction. It’s not just cooperative, it’s verbal/gestural art.
>>> Any human work is potentially a work of art. Vera John-Steiner and Holbrook
>>> Mahn have talked about how conversation can be a co-construction “at the
>>> speed of thought”.  Heady stuff taking part, or just listening to, this
>>> call and response between smart people.  And disheartening and destructive
>>> when we give up on dialog.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As I write this, I realize that the prosodic aspects of spoken language
>>> (intonation) are gestural as well. It’s simplistic to restrict gesture to
>>> visual signals. But I would say gesture is prototypically visual, an
>>> accompaniment to the voice. In surfing the web, one can find some
>>> interesting things on paralanguage which complicate the distinction between
>>> language and gesture. I think it speaks to the embodiment of language in
>>> the senses.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Henry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I couldn't agree more. And thanks for introducing me to the notion
>>> of delayed gratification as a precondition for sharing and turn-taking.
>>>
>>> That's a feature I hadn't considered before in connection with speech
>>> communication. It makes sense that each participant would need
>>>
>>> to exercise patience in order to wait out someone else's turn.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Much obliged.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:50 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting, Peter.
>>>
>>> Corballis, oddly in my view, places a lot of weight in so-called mirror
>>> neurons to explain perception of the intentionality of others. It seems
>>> blindingly obvious to me that cooperative activity, specifically
>>> participating in projects in which individuals share a common not-present
>>> object, is a form of behaviour which begets the necessary perceptive
>>> abilities. I have also long been of the view that delayed gratification, as
>>> a precondition for sharing and turn-taking, as a matter of fact, is an
>>> important aspect of sociality fostering the development of speech, and the
>>> upright gait which frees the hands for carrying food back to camp where it
>>> can be shared is important. None of which presupposes tools, only
>>> cooperation.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=itd0qPWlE7uAuyEX0ii8ohEoZegfdMAOOLf-YoaEqqs&s=-uwTjZDhHtJM2EFdBS-rXLTptADQdSGAcibaav-mhJw&e=>
>>>
>>> On 17/11/2018 12:36 am, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] wrote:
>>>
>>> If I might chime in to this discussion:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I submit that the key cooperative activity underlying speech
>>> communication is *turn-taking*. I don't know how that activity or rule came
>>> into being,
>>>
>>> but once it did, the activity of *exchanging* utterances became
>>> possible. And with exchange came the complementarity of speaking and
>>>
>>> listening roles, and the activity of alternating conversational roles
>>> and mental perspectives. Turn-taking is a key process in human development.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 9:21 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Oddly, Amazon delivered the book to me yesterday and I am currently on
>>> p.5. Fortunately, Corballis provides a synopsis of his book at the end,
>>> which I sneak-previewed last night.
>>>
>>> The interesting thing to me is his claim, similar to that of Merlin
>>> Donald, which goes like this.
>>>
>>> It would be absurd to suggest that proto-humans discovered that they had
>>> this unique and wonderful vocal apparatus and decided to use it for speech.
>>> Clearly* there was rudimentary language before speech was humanly
>>> possible*. In development, a behaviour is always present before the
>>> physiological adaptations which facilitate it come into being. I.e,
>>> proto-humans found themselves in circumstances where it made sense to
>>> develop interpersonal, voluntary communication, and to begin with they used
>>> what they had - the ability to mime and gesture, make facial expressions
>>> and vocalisations (all of which BTW can reference non-present entities and
>>> situations) This is an activity which further produces the conditions for
>>> its own development. Eventually, over millions of years, the vocal
>>> apparatus evolved under strong selection pressure due to the practice of
>>> non-speech communication as an integral part of their evolutionary niche.
>>> In other words, rudimentary wordless speech gradually became modern
>>> speech, along with all the accompanying facial expressions and hand
>>> movements.
>>>
>>> It just seems to me that, as you suggest, collective activity must have
>>> been a part of those conditions fostering communication (something found in
>>> our nearest evolutionary cousins who also have the elements of rudimentary
>>> speech)  - as was increasing tool-using, tool-making, tool-giving and
>>> tool-instructing.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=A3k5oeQ13zGCPUbWibdOb2KNZT4q__fLyCwugyULUDw&e=>
>>>
>>> On 16/11/2018 12:58 pm, Arturo Escandon wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Andy,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Tomasello has made similar claims, grounding the surge of
>>> articulated language on innate co-operativism and collective activity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/cambridge-handbook-of-child-language/90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cambridge.org_core_books_cambridge-2Dhandbook-2Dof-2Dchild-2Dlanguage_90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=vxJZooXRDYwTRrM4dzWBbLfUhF9HhmUvU3ouq6sbwPI&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Arturo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>
>>> Director,
>>>
>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>
>>> Fordham University
>>>
>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>
>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>
>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>
>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>
>>> Director,
>>>
>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>
>>> Fordham University
>>>
>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>
>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>
>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>
>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
>

-- 
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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