[Xmca-l] Re: Article for discussion: Facebook in Brazilian schools

Tue Mar 13 14:36:13 PDT 2018

Not rude at all, Monica. It is a point Mike and others made less
forcefully, and it is much appreciated. Mike also pointed out, in his
comments on Yrjo Engstrom's presentation on social movements at ISCAR, that
not all social movements are progressive. You also point this out when you
cite the five star movement in Italy. And look at this, from today's news:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43385677

I don't want to laugh or to cry, but only to understand. One way of
understanding that is both (as Lois Holzman would put it) a tool and a
result is trying to predict: to replace astonishment with foresight.

For example, we know that there are problems when workers try to take
control of bourgeois institutions for their own purposes: the institutions
fight back.There is a 2010 article in MCA by Brecht de Smet which argues
that Facebook actually helped Egypt's intellectuals dilute the
working-class content of the Mahalla strike movement: the result was broad
enough to take down Mubarak, but so shallow that it has left the Mahalla
workers exactly where they were. Brecht's article doesn't speak much of how
this contradiction is expressed internally, within the apparent
"solidarity" of the movement itself.

The form in which people say things is not only relevant to how many people
they are addressing, it is also relevant to what they have to say. It seems
to me that the "faux intimate" tone of "like" only accentuates the
contradiction between agitation (taking a few simple ideas to many people)
and propaganda (taking a theoretical world view to a vanguard).

I am a linguist, and so I think that form and content are never irrelevant
to each other. For example, if you address me in Portuguese in your next
post, I will learn even more!

David Kellogg
Sangmyung University

Recent Article in *Early Years*

The question of questions: Hasan’s critiques, Vygotsky’s crises, and the
child’s first interrogatives
<https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09575146.2018.1431874>

Free e-print available at:
https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/6EeWMigjFARavQjDJjcW/full

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:50 AM, Monica Lemos <monica.lemos@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> First and foremost, I would like to express my gratitude for having the
> opportunity to discuss my paper with Fernando at Xcmca.
>
> I have been following the comments  and I will little by little respond to
> the ones that focus on the paper, Fernando will jump in soon.
>
> @David- Shall we ride horses then? Shall we use flinststones to set fire? I
> don't mean to be rude, but it seems to me we can't deny changes and
> transformations that comes up all the time. FB is not the first and won't
> be the last, so we need to develop tools that enables our understanding,
> analysis and if possible, transformation of such phenomena.
>
> First, every social movement emerges from a type of reaction or a
> manifestation of resistance and they all have their downsides and setbacks.
> Secondly, in the case of the 4 movements there were three types of
> relation  with FB: a) indeed post first, organize later; b) there are
> serious issues going on and they need to be broadcasted, such as the police
> locking students at the tro station; and c) organize first, post later.
> Finally I don't understand the instransitivity of "like" on FB, since you
> like or react in other ways to something that is posted.
>
> Thank you for the comments so far and I will be back later.
>
> Best regards,
> Monica
>
>
>
>
> Em Seg, 12 de mar de 2018 21:06, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> escreveu:
>
> > Alfredo et al
> >
> > I read this message before reading the prior one. You are making the
> point
> > I was trying to make regarding discussion of the paper.
> > In our everyday lives we are experiencing a change in the wind (to use a
> > metaphor that Dylan made famous at another such time).
> > HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS ARE DISRUPTING THINGS AS USUAL for the first time in
> > my life. Call it 65 years.
> >
> > And we are academics and some of us are are paid to theorize such
> matters.
> > To theorize the social organization of society was
> > Hugh's description of the social sciences. In most American Universities,
> > Psychology (cap P) is located in the social sciences.
> > Do we approach the problem from "below" as psychologists? Do we approach
> it
> > from "above" as sociologists and political scientists?
> > Can you link the Leontiev who writes about the nature of human
> > consciousness, psychologically speaking and conducts experiments in the
> > laboratory that look for all the world like what goes on in my psychology
> > department, AND as someone who can help understand the growth of social
> > movements? This may also be a way to address and understanding of the
> > overlap and variability in the ideas of Vygotsky and Friere.
> >
> > Monica and Fernando must be reeling from all the complicated English we
> are
> > spewing. I look forward to the discussion.
> >
> > Still worrying about Figure 3! I know I need to be able to interpret it
> but
> > I am doing a lousy job.
> >
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 5:34 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for finding and sharing the link, Andy, and thanks Michael and
> > Mike
> > > for bringing the absolutely relevant connection to Parklands.
> > >
> > > There was not so long ago a discussion here as well as in a couple of
> > > articles in MCA about how crises leading to development most often
> result
> > > from quantitative increments that lead to qualitative leaps such that
> new
> > > forms of organization emerge from previous ones. So, David, I don't see
> > why
> > > increments in the pace of circulation (e.g., of information) would not
> be
> > > expected to bring with them changes in the organisation of the whole
> > > economy system. I would not say that social media is just bringing a
> lot
> > > more of the same, just as I would not a priori reject the possibility
> > that
> > > bringing a lot more of the same might not end up bringing new
> qualitative
> > > forms of communicating. The observation that "like" is intransitive in
> > > Facebook is interesting; but to me it needs to be put in its larger
> > context
> > > of use. And so, are we analysing Facebook as a grammar closed up in
> > itself,
> > > or as one more chain in a larger grammar of possible cooperation?
> > >
> > > I am myself concerned that Social Media like Facebook may be amplifying
> > > dichotomical thinking beyond the innocuous and often way-to-verbose
> > essays
> > > we academics enjoy entertaining with much more complex verbal forms
> than
> > > Facebook's intransitive "likes", only that the confrontations now seem
> to
> > > be moving to family's dinner tables, quarrels among protesters in
> public
> > > squares, or previously unheard of incarcerations for publishing tweets
> > and
> > > rap songs that critique the crown in a supposedly modern democracy like
> > > Spain (e.g.: http://cadenaser.com/ser/2018/
> 02/20/tribunales/1519135083_
> > > 106543.html). But the article here discussed also shows that there are
> > > forms of organization that these technologies are affording that may
> > bring
> > > more positive changes, like the case again in Spain of March 8th
> women's
> > > strike, the extent of which no politician or journalist had anticipated
> > and
> > > which led the government to quickly adopt a much more equity-friendly
> > > discourse than even the evening before (https://www.youtube.com/
> > > watch?v=4_11iIELdfc). So, no, probably that one strike, or that one
> > > social media that may have made it possible, won't change the system.
> But
> > > they seem to incrementally add to something, don't they?
> > >
> > > Alfredo Jornet
> > > ________________________________
> > > New article in *Design Studies* "Imagining Design: Transitive and
> > > intransitive dimensions"
> > > Free print available: https://authors.elsevier.com/a/1WhHg_,KmyN6Dr
> > >
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >
> > > on behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
> > > Sent: 12 March 2018 06:39
> > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for discussion: Facebook in Brazilian
> > schools
> > >
> > > That headline does not exist, but is it this:
> > >
> > >
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/07/us/parkland-students-
> social-media.html
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Andy Blunden
> > > ttp://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> > > On 12/03/2018 4:02 PM, mike cole wrote:
> > > > Michael - I have been trying to find a digital copy of a story in
> > today's
> > > > NY Times titled "the social media warriors of parkland." For some
> > reason
> > > it
> > > > is not visible on the digital version.... yet. Maybe someone out
> there
> > in
> > > > xmca-land can find it for us? I will check again
> > > > in the morning to see if it appears.
> > > >      It seems especially relevant to Monica and Fernando's article,
> and
> > > to
> > > > David's comment that "  it is very hard for me to pinpoint any
> > > > actual new form of thinking or new form of speaking which was made
> > > possible by
> > > > Facebook."  The voices and forms of speaking used by the students was
> > > not,
> > > > so far as I could tell, the source of data. There are no quotations
> of
> > > any
> > > > students speaking differently. I assumed that this article was about
> > > > collective action.
> > > > Monica and Fernando - I confess I had difficulty following parts of
> the
> > > > article, perhaps because I am a very seldom user of Facebook. In
> > > > particular, I had difficulty understanding Figure 3.  Were the people
> > who
> > > > started M1 also those who started M2-M3? ( " Once students achieved
> the
> > > > object of the activity—in the first case, to avoid the closure of the
> > > > schools—they focused the protests on another object").
> > > >
> > > > Did the M4 people get the idea from M1 through a FB connection form
> M1?
> > > Did
> > > > you get any sense of what distinguished pages that got a few hundred
> > > versus
> > > > 10,000 reactions?
> > > >
> > > > Harshad - Did you think the article failed to consider social issues?
> > > There
> > > > is no information about you on the xmca membership
> > > > page, so it is difficult to know from what part of the world you are
> > > > writing. Unless I miss my guess, some people will wonder at your
> > > > use of the word "man" where the local practice might put "humankind"
> or
> > > > some other gender inclusive term.
> > > >
> > > > David - Daylight saving time tonight so I find myself "working late."
> > It
> > > > got me to wondering how many people live in Seoul. A lot, it turns
> out.
> > > > About 9-10 million. That got me to wondering about how much faster
> all
> > > > those people would be getting around on horses with all the horse
> plops
> > > to
> > > > clamber over. And all that hay to haul into town for the morning rush
> > > > hour.  :-)
> > > >
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 8:25 PM, Glassman, Michael <
> > glassman.13@osu.edu>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi David,
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm sure those meddling kids won't come back on your lawn any time
> > soon.
> > > >>
> > > >> But really, the article did not say Facebook is a new type of
> > > technology.
> > > >> I believe they said that it's a form of human-technology interaction
> > and
> > > >> suggested perhaps social media was a new type of human-technology
> > > >> interaction.  I don't agree with this phrasing. I tend to think of
> > > Facebook
> > > >> more as an application of Internet technology - but either way
> > Facebook
> > > is
> > > >> just a form or an application. Is the internetworking of computer,
> > radio
> > > >> and satellite communication an enormous step forward in how humans
> > > >> communicate.  I think so - it's really extraordinary on a number of
> > > levels
> > > >> but that's really not the conversation for this article.
> > > >>
> > > >> I do think the authors have done an analysis that is interesting and
> > > >> possibly important, especially when one considers what is currently
> > > going
> > > >> on down in Parkland (some might be happy to know that, at least from
> > > what I
> > > >> have read, Facebook isn't dominant or even that important for these
> > > >> students. Adults have been using it more for larger organizational
> > > events
> > > >> like the March 14 walkout and the March 24 march).  I have read some
> > > >> articles on organizing on online forums (and actually wrote a not
> very
> > > good
> > > >> one a few years back). Most of them are communications based an
> don't
> > > have
> > > >> strong theoretical underpinning which is why I think this article
> > might
> > > be
> > > >> an important step forward.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think the idea of using third generation activity theory might be
> a
> > > good
> > > >> idea for this type of analysis. I myself have seen ties between the
> > > >> trialogical approach being developed by Hakkareinan and Paavola and
> > > what is
> > > >> going on down in Parkland. The students are creating their own
> > projects
> > > and
> > > >> then getting the larger community to buy in to and support what they
> > are
> > > >> doing which is in turn changing the quality of their activities. I
> > have
> > > my
> > > >> own ideas on why this is suddenly happening and direct communication
> > > >> technologies like Twitter and texting (which seem primary vehicles)
> > are
> > > >> only part of it.
> > > >>
> > > >> Anyway, this particular article I think is really timely and should
> > give
> > > >> us a lot to think about.
> > > >>
> > > >> Michael
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> > > >> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 6:03 PM
> > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for discussion: Facebook in Brazilian
> > > schools
> > > >>
> > > >> So in the fifteenth century, Gutenberg exapted extant technology
> > already
> > > >> widely available in China and published a single text using moveable
> > > type
> > > >> which started a profound intellectual, cultural, and social
> revolution
> > > >> whose effects we still feel today: the rise of Protestantism, the
> > > >> Counter-Reformation in, among other places, Brazil, the Wars of
> > > Religion in
> > > >> France, the vicissitudes of a multii-confessional (political) State
> > and
> > > >> ultimately those of a multi-confessional (psychological) state, In
> the
> > > >> twentieth century, Ford similarly exapted extant technology, this
> time
> > > >> nearly two millenia later than China, and mass-produced automobiles
> > > using
> > > >> Taylorism, forcing everybody to buy an identical product with
> > > >> interchangeable parts made by factories with interchangeable
> workers.
> > > >> The automobile "revolution" did not even give us new roads, and in
> > Seoul
> > > >> today traffic moves notably slower than it would on horseback.
> > Clearly,
> > > >> there are some forms of technology that are actually semiogenic--and
> > > others
> > > >> which merely circulate capital at a faster rate and actually slow
> the
> > > >> movement of people and new ideas.
> > > >>
> > > >> So my question is very simple. How do we know that "Facebook" (which
> > as
> > > >> the name implies was originally designed to help Harvard freshmen
> > decide
> > > >> which classmates were sufficiently hot to "like") is really one of
> the
> > > >> former technologies?.There are very clear signs , beyond the obvious
> > > ones
> > > >> surrounding the American origins, that it belongs to the latter
> > > category,
> > > >> and not a few of them appear in this very article. First of all, the
> > > >> authors are honest enough to associate Facebook with reactionary,
> > > >> xenophobic, populist movements like the clowns who run the "Five
> > Stars"
> > > >> movement in Italy. Second, on the very first page, the authors try
> but
> > > do
> > > >> not really seem to be able to distinguish between the "post first
> and
> > > >> organize later" technologies of Occupy Wall Street and the use of
> > social
> > > >> media by the four movements in the article (including one actually
> > > called
> > > >> "Occupy Everything"). And thirdly, it is very hard for me to
> pinpoint
> > > any
> > > >> actual new form of thinking or new form of speaking which was made
> > > possible
> > > >> by Facebook. If anything, Facebook seems to narrow semiogenic power
> > to a
> > > >> single consumer/computer menu. Ford said, you can get a Model A in
> any
> > > >> color you like so long as it's black. Facebook tells us the same
> > thing,
> > > but
> > > >> makes the verb "like" intransitive.
> > > >>
> > > >> David Kellogg
> > > >> Sangmyung University
> > > >>
> > > >> Recent Article in *Early Years*
> > > >>
> > > >> The question of questions: Hasan’s critiques, Vygotsky’s crises, and
> > the
> > > >> child’s first interrogatives <https://www.tandfonline.com/
> > > >> doi/full/10.1080/09575146.2018.1431874>
> > > >>
> > > >> Free e-print available at:
> > > >> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/6EeWMigjFARavQjDJjcW/full
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 7:30 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Dear xmca'ers,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> it is (bit over) due time for introducing the article for
> discussion
> > > >>> from MCA's 2018 Issue 1, before Issue 2 comes upon us soon.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The selected article, by Monica Ferreira Lemos and Fernando Rezende
> > da
> > > >>> Cunha Júnior, is about two topics that were thematised in the last
> > > >>> ISCAR congress and that ought to be of much relevance to current
> and
> > > >>> future CHAT-related research: Social media and social movements. In
> > > >>> particular, the article examines how students use social media for
> > the
> > > >>> organization and development of 4 social movements in Brazil.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The article is attached and is Free access during the discussion
> > > period.
> > > >>> It can be accessed free in the following link:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2017.1379823
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The authors have kindly agreed to participate in the discussion and
> > > >>> they will be introducing themselves soon. I hope you  will find the
> > > >>> article interesting and please don't be shy to share anything you
> > > >>> might have learned reading it, anything you might wonder about it
> or
> > > >>> that you would like see discussed. Having authors engage in
> dialogue
> > > >>> is a great opportunity that this community offers and that makes
> > sense
> > > >>> the most when many of you participate. Good reading!
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Alfredo Jornet
> > > >>>
> > > >>> New article in *Design Studies* "Imagning Design: Transitive and
> > > >>> intransitive dimensions"
> > > >>> Free print available: https://authors.elsevier.com/
> a/1WhHg_,KmyN6Dr
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>