[Xmca-l] Re: Bronfennbrenner discussion
Andy Blunden
ablunden@mira.net
Tue Jan 30 16:09:28 PST 2018
You can say that "context" is an "abstraction from the
world" if you like. But as Mike has shown, it is an
unbounded abstraction. E.G. a new twist in Cold War
diplomacy can skittle a 4thD project and/or open a new
project for kids in San Diego and Moscow.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 31/01/2018 10:52 AM, David Kellogg wrote:
> Andy--I don't understand how "context" means "the world".
> That's what Malinowski thought. But I'm a linguist, and
> for me "context" is an abstraction from the world: a
> context of culture is the ensemble of relations in the
> world which we choose to semanticize in a given language,
> and a context of situation is the ensemble of relations
> in the world which we choose to semanticize in a single
> text. But even if you are not a linguist, doesn't a
> "context" always mean something that goes with a text,
> like chili con carne goes with meat?
>
> dk
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Recent Article in /Mind, Culture, and Activity/ 24 (4)
> 'Metaphoric, Metonymic, Eclectic, or Dialectic? A
> Commentary on “Neoformation: A Dialectical Approach to
> Developmental Change”'
>
> Free e-print available (for a short time only) at
>
> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full
> <http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Andy Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
> Mike, I have never been a reader of Bronfennbrenner, so my
> comments may be immaterial here and I am happy if you and
> others simply let them go through to the 'keeper (i.e.,
> catcher).
>
> You will recall that in my "Interdisciplinary" book I
> appreciated your work, but criticised it for your claim to
> include "context" in the "unit of analysis" on the basis
> that "context" was an "open ended totality" and to include
> it in the "unit of analysis" was to destroy the very
> idea of
> a "unit."
>
> A point of agreement between us though has been the
> need for
> what we both call a "meso-level" unit between the
> individual
> action and the world, and that my use of "project" to name
> this meso-level unit, and that the 5thD project was such a
> unit, persisting for more than an individual's
> lifetime and
> escaping the control of the founder, but yet falling short
> of macro-level units like the economy, science, the
> nation, etc.
>
> Yjro is quite right when he said "the context is the
> activity,", or rather "the activities." "The activity"
> is of
> course the project. But here Yrjo is being true to
> analysis
> by units. He is suggesting that the world is best
> conceived
> as being made up of activities (I would say "projects").
>
> To claim to include the "context" (which as you know means
> "the world") *in* the unit which makes up the world,
> is the
> same logical fallacy as asking whether "I always lie" is a
> lie, and destroy the whole point of analysis by units,
> which
> is to approach understanding infinite totalities by
> means of
> little things that you can grasp, which none the less
> characterise the whole. This unit, projects, is mediating
> between the individual action and the world.
>
> The problem is, I think, Yrjo's redefinition of "unit of
> analysis" as (according to some of his students) "the unit
> to be analysed," which I characterise as that list you
> make
> up, of everything you're going to put in your suitcase,
> which you might need on your journey. This was *not*
> Vygotsky's idea, or that of Goethe, Hegel or Marx.
>
> Whatever the problem, what happens depends on the context.
> How do you conceive of the context? by units. The
> context is
> a totality not part of a unit.
>
> :)
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
> On 31/01/2018 9:45 AM, mike cole wrote:
> > Hi Jon-
> >
> > There are obviously a ton of issues to discuss
> in your article. I
> > guess that my paper on using his ideas as part of
> the process of designing
> > activities for kids in university-community
> partnerships is
> > an example of inappropriate mis-appropriations. I'm
> not sure. If I need a
> > defense its that I thought the ideas as I understood
> them useful, but I was
> > not testing his formulations in the same way you are
> concerned to do, but
> > using (some of) them for planning, analysis, and
> interpretation.
> >
> > While trying to sort that out, I'll just make a
> couple of observations.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 5:17 PM, Jonathan Tudge
> <jrtudge@uncg.edu <mailto:jrtudge@uncg.edu>> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, Martin, there always is culture within the
> microsystem--it's the only
> >> place in which culture is experienced.
> Microsystems are always embedded
> >> within culture (I'd add always within multiple
> cultures, but I don't think
> >> that Urie ever wrote that).
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Jon
> >>
> >>
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>
> >> Jonathan Tudge
> >>
> >> Professor
> >> Office: 155 Stone
> >>
> >> Our work on gratitude:
> http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/
> <http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/>
> >>
> >> A new book just published: Tudge, J. & Freitas, L.
> (Eds.) Developing
> >> gratitude in children and adolescents
> >>
> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev-gratitude-
> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev-gratitude->
> >> in-children-and-adolescents-flyer.pdf>,
> >> Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press
> >>
> >> My web site:http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge
> <http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge>
> >>
> >> Mailing address:
> >> 248 Stone Building
> >> Department of Human Development and Family Studies
> >> PO Box 26170
> >> The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
> >> Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
> >> USA
> >>
> >> phone (336) 223-6181
> >> fax (336) 334-5076
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 7:10 PM, Martin Packer
> <mpacker@cantab.net <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Wow, very graphic! At first I thought my
> microsystem had exploded! :)
> >>>
> >>> The 20,000 dollar question for me has always been,
> why is culture in the
> >>> macrosystem? Is there no culture in my here-&-now
> interactions with other
> >>> people? (Well, perhaps in my case not!)
> >>>
> >>> Martin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Jan 29, 2018, at 6:34 PM, Jonathan Tudge
> <jrtudge@uncg.edu <mailto:jrtudge@uncg.edu>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Greetings, Martin,
> >>>>
> >>>> I hope that this works (taken from a powerpoint
> presentation).
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Jon
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>
> >>>> Jonathan Tudge
> >>>>
> >>>> Professor
> >>>> Office: 155 Stone
> >>>>
> >>>> Our work on gratitude:
> http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/
> <http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/>
> >>>>
> >>>> A new book just published: Tudge, J. & Freitas,
> L. (Eds.) Developing
> >>>> gratitude in children and adolescents
> >>>>
> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev-
> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev->
> >>> gratitude-in-children-and-adolescents-flyer.pdf>,
> >>>> Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press
> >>>>
> >>>> My web site:http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge
> <http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mailing address:
> >>>> 248 Stone Building
> >>>> Department of Human Development and Family Studies
> >>>> PO Box 26170
> >>>> The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
> >>>> Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
> >>>> USA
> >>>>
> >>>> phone (336) 223-6181
> >>>> fax (336) 334-5076
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 6:22 PM, Martin Packer
> <mpacker@cantab.net <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Jon,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Would it be possible for you to post here the
> figure you mentioned in
> >>> your
> >>>>> message, page 69 of your book?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Martin
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or
> Dr. Lowie or discuss
> >>>>> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I
> become at once aware that
> >> my
> >>>>> partner does not understand anything in the
> matter, and I end usually
> >>> with
> >>>>> the feeling that this also applies to myself”
> (Malinowski, 1930)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jan 29, 2018, at 10:24 AM, Jonathan Tudge
> <jrtudge@uncg.edu <mailto:jrtudge@uncg.edu>>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi, Mike,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There are a couple of problems with the 2005
> book. One is that the
> >>>>> papers
> >>>>>> are drawn from UB's writings from the 1970s to
> the early part of this
> >>>>>> century. As is true of Vygotsky's writings
> (and probably any
> >> theorist
> >>>>> who
> >>>>>> wrote over a significant span of time) it's
> really important to know
> >>> the
> >>>>>> date of publication. The other problem is that
> at least one of the
> >>>>>> chapters is incomplete, and there are errors in
> at least one other.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As for the concentric circles or the
> matrioshka--they're both
> >> excellent
> >>>>>> examples of how powerful metaphors can go
> powerfully wrong! Both are
> >>>>>> utterly misleading, in that they really focus
> attention on the
> >>> different
> >>>>>> layers of context (and even then don't make
> sense--the mesosystem
> >>>>> consists
> >>>>>> of overlapping circles, as in a Venn diagram).
> Nonetheless, you're
> >>>>>> right--UB continued to use the metaphor in his
> final publications.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> However, his theory really developed a lot from
> the 1970s onwards
> >> (see
> >>>>> Rosa
> >>>>>> and Tudge, 2013; Tudge, 2013), and from the
> early 1990s onwards
> >>> "proximal
> >>>>>> processes" were the centerpiece of his
> Process-Person-Context-Time
> >>> (PPCT)
> >>>>>> model. These are essentially the everyday
> activities in which
> >>> developing
> >>>>>> people engage, and they always and only occur
> in microsystems.
> >>> However,
> >>>>>> what goes on in microsystems is always
> influenced by (a) the person
> >>>>>> characteristics of the developing individuals
> of interest and those
> >> of
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>> others with whom they interact, (b) the
> characteristics of the
> >> context,
> >>>>>> both proximal (as in the nature of the
> microsystem in which those
> >>>>>> activities are occurring) and distal (the
> macrosystem, which for him
> >>> was
> >>>>>> culture, whether considered at the level of
> society or within-society
> >>>>>> cultural groups), and (c) time, which includes
> both the need to study
> >>>>> over
> >>>>>> time (longitudinally) and in time (the
> prevailing social, economic,
> >> and
> >>>>>> political climate). A graphic representation
> that better reflects
> >>> his
> >>>>>> developed position than the concentric circles
> can be found in Tudge
> >>>>>> (2008), on page 69.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I actually think that he rather dropped the
> ball on culture,
> >>>>>> unfortunately. I really like his writings on
> this in his 1979 book
> >> and
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>> his 1989 (or 1992) chapter on ecological
> systems theory. Reading his
> >>>>> 1998
> >>>>>> (or 2006) handbook chapters you'll find
> virtually no mention of the
> >>>>> impact
> >>>>>> of culture (or macrosystem) despite drawing on
> Steinberg et al.'s
> >>>>> research
> >>>>>> on adolescents from different racial/ethnic groups.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Don't feel bad, though, if you have always just
> thought of
> >>>>> Bronfenbrenner's
> >>>>>> theory as one of concentric circles of
> context--you're no different
> >> in
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>> regard from just about everyone who has
> published an undergrad
> >> textbook
> >>>>> on
> >>>>>> human development, not to mention a majority of
> scholars who have
> >> said
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>> they've used UB's theory as foundational for
> their research (see
> >> Tudge
> >>> et
> >>>>>> al., 2009, 2016).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If anyone would like a copy of any of these
> papers, just send me a
> >>>>> private
> >>>>>> message to jrtudge@uncg.edu
> <mailto:jrtudge@uncg.edu>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Tudge, J. R. H. (2008). *The everyday lives
> of young children:
> >>>>>> Culture, class, and child rearing in diverse
> societies.* New York:
> >>>>>> Cambridge University Press.
> >>>>>> - Tudge, J. R. H., Mokrova, I., Hatfield, B.,
> & Karnik, R. B.
> >> (2009).
> >>>>>> Uses and misuses of Bronfenbrenner’s
> bioecological theory of human
> >>>>>> development. *Journal of Family Theory and
> Review, 1*(4), 198-210.
> >>>>>> - Rosa, E. M., & Tudge, J. R. H. (2013). Urie
> Bronfenbrenner’s
> >> theory
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>> human development: Its evolution from ecology
> to bioecology.
> >> *Journal
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>> Family Theory and Review, 5*(6), 243–258.
> DOI:10.1111/jftr.12022
> >>>>>> - Tudge, J. R. H. (2013). Urie Bronfenbrenner.
> In Heather Montgomery
> >>>>>> (Ed.), *Oxford bibliographies on line:
> Childhood studies*. New York:
> >>>>>> Oxford University Press.
> >>>>>> - Tudge, J. R. H., Payir, A., Merçon-Vargas,
> E. A., Cao, H., Liang,
> >>> Y.,
> >>>>>> Li, J., & O’Brien, L. T. (2016). Still misused
> after all these
> >> years?
> >>> A
> >>>>>> re-evaluation of the uses of Bronfenbrenner’s
> bioecological theory
> >> of
> >>>>> human
> >>>>>> development. *Journal of Family Theory and
> Review*, *8,* 427–445.
> >> doi:
> >>>>>> 10.1111/jftr.12165.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jon
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jonathan Tudge
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Professor
> >>>>>> Office: 155 Stone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Our work on gratitude:
> http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/
> <http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A new book just published: Tudge, J. & Freitas,
> L. (Eds.) Developing
> >>>>>> gratitude in children and adolescents
> >>>>>>
> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev-
> <https://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge/books/dev->
> >>>>> gratitude-in-children-and-adolescents-flyer.pdf>,
> >>>>>> Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My web
> site:http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge
> <http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/faculty/tudge>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mailing address:
> >>>>>> 248 Stone Building
> >>>>>> Department of Human Development and Family Studies
> >>>>>> PO Box 26170
> >>>>>> The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
> >>>>>> Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
> >>>>>> USA
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> phone (336) 223-6181
> >>>>>> fax (336) 334-5076
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 6:20 PM, mike cole
> <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Jon --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nice to see your voice!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I only have Urie's 2005 collection, *Making
> Human Beings Human, *to
> >>>>> hand. I
> >>>>>>> checked it out
> >>>>>>> to see if the terms activity and context
> appeared there. Only sort
> >> of!
> >>>>>>> Activity is in the index, but context is not
> (!). I attach two pages
> >>>>> from
> >>>>>>> the book for those interested (and able to
> read my amateur
> >>>>>>> photos). Here it seems that activity and
> context coincide at the
> >> micro
> >>>>>>> level, but perhaps only there?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Concerning embedded circles and context. It
> turns out that the
> >> person
> >>>>> who
> >>>>>>> induced Sheila and me to write a textbook on
> human development was
> >> U.
> >>>>>>> Bronfenbrenner. And this same U.B. discussed
> with us how to
> >> represent
> >>>>> his
> >>>>>>> perspective circa 1985, pretty early in the
> task of writing the
> >> first
> >>>>>>> edition. His use of matroshki (embedded dolls)
> as a metaphor and his
> >>>>>>> rhetoric at the time (and in 2005 as well) invites
> >>>>>>> a concentric circles representation. We
> discussed other ways of
> >> trying
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> represent the idea and he
> >>>>>>> said that our representation came as close as
> he could figure out.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In the 2005 book he refers to my work as
> combining a Vygotskian
> >> notion
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>> context with an anthropological one (p. 126),
> and uses the term
> >>>>> "ecological
> >>>>>>> context." I assume that most of my Russian
> colleagues would argue
> >> that
> >>>>> LSV
> >>>>>>> used the concept of "social situation of
> development," not context.
> >> I
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>>> no idea how he would respond to Yrjo's
> declaration that the activity
> >>> is
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>> context, but it does not seem too far off from
> what is written on
> >> the
> >>>>> pages
> >>>>>>> attached.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Perhaps someone on xmca who is skilled at
> searching texts in
> >> cyrillic
> >>>>> could
> >>>>>>> search for his use of the term, context. I
> have always been curious
> >>>>> about
> >>>>>>> what such a search would turn up, but lack the
> skill
> >>>>>>> to carry out the query.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And perhaps you have written something about
> the mistake of
> >>> interpreting
> >>>>>>> U.B.'s notion of contexts using embedded
> circles we could learn
> >> from??
> >>>>>>> Certainly the passages on p. 46 remind me of
> the work of Hedegaard
> >> and
> >>>>>>> Fleer, who also draw upon U.B.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> <PPCT (Tudge, 2008, p. 69).pptx>
> >>>
> >
>
>
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