[Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences

Thu Nov 9 13:31:53 PST 2017

Beethoven never called his Piano Sonata 23 in F minor the "Appassionata,"
and there is no evidence that he considered it holding up a mirror to his
own feelings or those of anybody else. Actually, Sonata 23 obeys a set of
formal rules rather strictly.The first movement includes the four note
"gestalt" with which Beethoven opens the Fifth Symphony, where it
supposedly means "Victory" because of a similarity to the letter "V"
in Morse code (invented twenty years after Beethoven composed the Fifth!)

Yes, there are works of music that attempt "reflectional" realism (e.g.
the Pastoral, where Beethoven does name both the symphony and the movements
and even inserts indexical gestures, like flutes for the twittering birds).
There are also works of literature that attempt something like the sonata
form (Gertrude Stein). But I think that reason why literature tends to
realism and music tends to formalism is precisely the distinction that
Sasha is so anxious to deny--the distinction between feeling and thinking
as two qualitatively different ways of rendering reality to consciousness,
each perfectly adapted to a different mode of reality, and hence
qualitatively different (for the same reason that one is quotable and the
other is not).

Sasha says that «отражение», reflection, is the starting point of any
Marxist understanding of consciousness. I suppose that believing in the
reality of a mirror is a step forward when we compare it to believing in
the reality of a ghost. But I don't see that believing that a mirror
constitutes a theory of consciousness is a step forward from believing that
a ghost is a theory of consciousness. On the contrary; it looks to me like
exactly the same theory: it is a model of the mind based on nothing more
than corporeal imagery.

Stalin remarked about Shostakovich's work that it was "muddle instead of
music" (and ironically it was Shostakovich's attempt at realism, Lady
Macbeth of Mtsensk!). In this Stalin showed exactly the same discernment as
someone who wishes that foreigners spoke a proper language instead of just
making funny noises. It is about as Marxist as when the American president
sends his aide de camp to us in Korea to warn us against serving
him adventurous ethnic cuisines and to ask us to stick to normal food like
overdone steaks with two scoops of ice cream.

David Kellogg

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:

> Appassionata?
>
> reflecting human soul...
>
> 9 Kas 2017 12:21 tarihinde "David Kellogg" <dkellogg60@gmail.com> yazdı:
>
> > Ulvi--
> >
> > Can you give me an example of a "realist" piano sonata? Do you mean
> > something like "4:22" by John Cage?
> >
> > David Kellogg
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I intended to mean that if a gesture, belonging to social reality, is a
> > > work of art, a realist artist, an artist who adopted realism as a
> > literary
> > > approach, will conceive this gesture in real life as a work of art
> > compared
> > > with any other artist who is not a realist one, who does not adopt
> > realism
> > > in literature as a main approach for his artistic creation.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 9 November 2017 at 10:20, WEBSTER, DAVID S. <
> d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This ought to be of interest  - In the 'Principles of Art'
> Collingwood
> > > > writes that “[e]very utterance
> > > > and every gesture that each one of us makes is a work of art” (P.
> Art,
> > > > 285). See https://www.academia.edu/35044244/Landes_-_
> > > > Collingwoods_Difficult_Ethics_2010_APA_Paper_ for discussion
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> > > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi Içil
> > > > Sent: 08 November 2017 16:15
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning
> > from
> > > > life experiences
> > > >
> > > > Thank you Beth.
> > > > I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion,
> > > > imagination and creativity.
> > > >
> > > > Congratulations.
> > > >
> > > > Ulvi
> > > >
> > > > 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" <bferholt@gmail.com>
> yazdı:
> > > >
> > > > > To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and
> > > > > Punishment
> > > > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life,
> > > > > formation
> > > > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center
> > > > > > was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is
> > > > > > the better place to look is very interesting, and a response
> would
> > > > > > have something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide
> > > > > > because in suicide and some art you have an end point: In
> > > > > > autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to have
> the
> > > > closure, too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf
> > shows
> > > > > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is
> > > > > > helpful
> > > > > here.
> > > > > > Beth
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Thank you Robert!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake"
> > > > > >> <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> > > > > >> yazdı:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all!
> > > > > >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back
> in
> > > > > >> > 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to this
> > > > > >> > with his students this way.
> > > > > >> > 
> > > > > >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing
> > > > > >> > about
> > > > > >> things
> > > > > >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and
> > > > > >> > self-repair
> > > > > —
> > > > > >> how
> > > > > >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to
> go
> > > > > "meta,"
> > > > > >> to
> > > > > >> > think about their ways of thinking.
> > > > > >> > —"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange*
> > > > > >> > <http://www.springerlink.com/content/h115766255987075/>,
> 1984.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > *Robert L.*
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Retrieved from :
> > > > > >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting-
> > > > > >> > meta-all-the-time/
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden <
> ablunden@mira.net
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the
> > > > > >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography
> > > > > >> > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks
> back
> > > > > >> > > over their life, and the experiences which have shaped them,
> > > > > >> > > reassessing how they responded to events intervening in
> their
> > > > > >> > > life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's multi-volume
> > > > > >> > > autobiography to you,
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Andy
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> > > > > >> > > Andy Blunden
> > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> > > > > >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi İçil wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to
> be
> > > > > >> > > > a
> > > > > >> > principal
> > > > > >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva
> > > > > >> > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and
> > > > > literature...
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe,
> > is
> > > > > >> > > > to
> > > > > >> look
> > > > > >> > > into
> > > > > >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do
> > not
> > > > > >> > > > use
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > > concept,
> > > > > >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of  "perezhivanie" in
> > > > > >> > > > those
> > > > > >> > theses...
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study
> > > > > >> > "perezhivanie"
> > > > > >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin,
> > > > > >> > > > Tsvetaeva...who
> > > > > all
> > > > > >> > > > suicided, unfortunately.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi İçil <
> ulvi.icil@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine
> qua
> > > > > >> > > >> non
> > > > > >> concept
> > > > > >> > > for
> > > > > >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially:
> Pushkin,
> > > > > >> > > >> and
> > > > > many
> > > > > >> > > others.
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and
> should
> > > > > >> > > >> not be
> > > > > >> > > studied
> > > > > >> > > >> without this concept.
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >> Completely impossible.
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of
> > > > > >> > > >> sounds,
> > > > > >> > thoughts
> > > > > >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and
> > > > > >> > > >> affect,
> > > > > >> > cognition
> > > > > >> > > >> and emotion.
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours"
> because
> > > > > >> > > >> for
> > > > > >> > instance,
> > > > > >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours)
> says
> > > > > >> > > >> that
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on
> > > > > >> > > >> colour in
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > poems
> > > > > >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more
> > > > > >> > > >> sensitive
> > > > > to
> > > > > >> > > sounds
> > > > > >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian
> > > > > language
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation
> of
> > > > > >> > > >> rythm
> > > > > >> in
> > > > > >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others)
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian
> > > > > >> > > >> databases? A
> > > > > >> poet
> > > > > >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie".
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden
> > > > > >> > > >> <ablunden@mira.net>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > >>
> > > > > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be
> read
> > > > > >> > > >>> as well:
> > > > > >> > > >>>
> > > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%
> > > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf
> > > > > >> > > >>>
> > > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%
> > > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf
> > > > > >> > > >>>
> > > > > >> > > >>> Andy
> > > > > >> > > >>>
> > > > > >> > > >>> ------------------------------
> > -----------------------------
> > > > > >> > > >>> -
> > > > > >> > > >>> Andy Blunden
> > > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> > > > > >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi İçil wrote:
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Dear all,
> > > > > >> > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and
> > > > > >> > > >>>> playwright,
> > > > > Nazim
> > > > > >> > > >>> Hikmet,
> > > > > >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life
> > > > > >> experiences
> > > > > >> > at
> > > > > >> > > >>> each
> > > > > >> > > >>>> stage of his life,
> > > > > >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general
> > on
> > > > > >> learning
> > > > > >> > > from
> > > > > >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great
> > > > > >> > > >>>> poets,
> > > > > >> > > painters
> > > > > >> > > >>> and
> > > > > >> > > >>>> play writers.
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section
> > > > > >> > > >>>> below
> > > > > from
> > > > > >> > his
> > > > > >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother.
> > > > > >> > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a
> > > > > >> > > >>>> theoretical
> > > > > >> > approach.
> > > > > >> > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Thank you.
> > > > > >> > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Ulvi
> > > > > >> > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the Hôtel de France in
> Batum.
> > A
> > > > > table
> > > > > >> > with
> > > > > >> > > >>>> carved legs—not just the legs but the whole gilded oval
> > > > > >> > > >>>> table
> > > > > was
> > > > > >> > > >>> covered
> > > > > >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside
> > house
> > > > > >> > > >>>> in
> > > > > >> > > Üsküdar, a
> > > > > >> > > >>>> rococo
> > > > > >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The
> journey I
> > > > > >> > > >>>> made
> > > > > >> from
> > > > > >> > > the
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Black
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the
> > > > > >> thirty-five-day,
> > > > > >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear
> > > > > >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school—in
> > > > > >> > > >>>> short, to
> > > > > >> make
> > > > > >> > a
> > > > > >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha’s
> > > > > >> > > >>>> descendant—more
> > > > > >> > > precisely,
> > > > > >> > > >>> a
> > > > > >> > > >>>> grandson—with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in
> > > > > >> > > >>>> the
> > > > > >> Hôtel de
> > > > > >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a
> > > > > >> > > >>>> tattered,
> > > > > >> dirty,
> > > > > >> > > >>>> blood-stained
> > > > > >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look,
> and
> > > > > >> > > >>>> my
> > > > > >> blood
> > > > > >> > > >>> rushes
> > > > > >> > > >>>> to my
> > > > > >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I’m ashamed again. Of the
> house
> > > > > >> > > >>>> by
> > > > > the
> > > > > >> sea
> > > > > >> > > in
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Üsküdar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The
> > > > > >> > > >>>> decision was
> > > > > >> > made:
> > > > > >> > > >>> death
> > > > > >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don’t rush, son. Let’s put
> the
> > > > > >> questions
> > > > > >> > on
> > > > > >> > > >>> this
> > > > > >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you
> > sacrifice
> > > > > >> > > >>>> for
> > > > > >> this
> > > > > >> > > >>> cause?
> > > > > >> > > >>>> What
> > > > > >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your
> > freedom?
> > > > Yes!
> > > > > >> How
> > > > > >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my
> > > > > >> > > >>>> life,
> > > > > if
> > > > > >> > > >>> necessary!
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You
> > > > > >> > > >>>> can’t
> > > > > >> wait
> > > > > >> > to
> > > > > >> > > >>>> travel,
> > > > > >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave
> > > > > Anatolia
> > > > > >> > here
> > > > > >> > > on
> > > > > >> > > >>>> this
> > > > > >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and
> > back
> > > > > >> > > >>>> to
> > > > > >> Ankara
> > > > > >> > > >>> from
> > > > > >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you’ll be a senator, a
> > > > > >> minister—women,
> > > > > >> > > >>> wining
> > > > > >> > > >>>> and
> > > > > >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can
> > > > > >> > > >>>> spend my
> > > > > >> whole
> > > > > >> > > >>> life in
> > > > > >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or
> > > > > >> > > >>>> drowned
> > > > > >> like
> > > > > >> > > >>> Mustafa
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist—didn’t
> you
> > > > > >> > > >>>> ask
> > > > > >> > yourself
> > > > > >> > > >>> these
> > > > > >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you
> afraid
> > > > > >> > > >>>> of
> > > > > >> being
> > > > > >> > > >>>> killed? I’m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without
> > > > > thinking?
> > > > > >> > No.
> > > > > >> > > I
> > > > > >> > > >>>> first knew
> > > > > >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn’t. Okay, are you ready
> > to
> > > > > >> > > >>>> be
> > > > > >> > > disabled,
> > > > > >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB,
> > > > > >> > > >>>> heart
> > > > > >> > disease,
> > > > > >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute—I
> > > > > >> > > >>>> hadn’t
> > > > > >> thought
> > > > > >> > > >>> about
> > > > > >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes
> > tight
> > > > > >> > > >>>> and
> > > > > >> > walked
> > > > > >> > > >>> around
> > > > > >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked
> > > > > >> > > >>>> around
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > room
> > > > > >> > > >>> in
> > > > > >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I
> > > > > >> > > >>>> didn’t
> > > > > >> open
> > > > > >> > my
> > > > > >> > > >>> eyes.
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I
> can
> > > > > accept
> > > > > >> > > >>> blindness.
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this
> is
> > > > > >> > > >>>> the
> > > > > >> truth.
> > > > > >> > > Not
> > > > > >> > > >>>> books or
> > > > > >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought
> > me
> > > > > where
> > > > > >> I
> > > > > >> > am.
> > > > > >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen
> > > > > >> > > >>>> only on
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I
> > am.
> > > > > That’s
> > > > > >> > how
> > > > > >> > > >>> it is
> > > > > >> > > >>>> .
> > > > > >> > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > >>>
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > --
> > > > > >> > Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> > > > > >> > Associate Professor
> > > > > >> > Social Foundations of Education
> > > > > >> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern
> > > > > >> > University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA  30460 Co-editor of
> > > > > >> > *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,*
> > > > > >> vol.39,
> > > > > >> > 2017
> > > > > >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social
> > > Imagination:
> > > > > An
> > > > > >> > Intellectual Genealogy.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >  http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1
> > > > > >> > Webpage:
> > > > > >> > https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy
> > > > > >> must be
> > > > > >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.*
> > > > > >> > John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > > > Associate Professor
> > > > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College,
> > > > > > City University of New York
> > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > > Associate Professor
> > > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College,
> > City
> > > > > University of New York
> > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > >
> > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>