From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Nov 3 08:35:43 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 08:35:43 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: An Explanation for the Achievement Gap In-Reply-To: <0100015f8240ac13-ee42fa62-089f-4420-b75f-1d700a301f15-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <0100015f8240ac13-ee42fa62-089f-4420-b75f-1d700a301f15-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: The lead article on the achievement gap arrives at conclusions that would seem to provide justification for the kinds of changes in the organization of education that many on this list have been studying for some time. Wouldn't, for example, social design experiments be just the kind of research you would want in order to bring about about the proposed systems changes? mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Teachers College Record Date: Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 7:19 AM Subject: An Explanation for the Achievement Gap To: Recipient [image: Title] [image: Subscribe Today] [image: transparent 13] Freely-Available This Week Articles Two Models of Learning and Achievement: An Explanation for the Achievement Gap? by Stuart S. Yeh The achievement gap may be explained as a consequence of the conventional structure of schooling and the failure to individualize task difficulty and provide performance feedback in a way that is necessary to ensure that all students experience mastery. English Language Learners' Pathways to Four-Year Colleges by Yasuko Kanno & Jennifer G. Cromley Using the Education Longitudinal Study of 2002, this study examines high-school English language learners' pathways to four-year colleges in order to explore why ELLs' access to four-year college is so limited. Book Reviews Educational Leadership and Organizational Management by Victor C. X. Wang, Bernice Bain, & John Hope reviewed by Irene H. Yoon ------------------------------ Researching New Literacies: Design, Theory, and Data in Sociocultural Investigation by Michele Knobel & Colin Lankshear (Eds.) reviewed by Susan Cridland-Hughes ------------------------------ Transgender Children and Youth: Cultivating Pride and Joy With Families in Transition by Elijah C. Nealy reviewed by Mollie V. Blackburn ------------------------------ Child Cultures, Schooling, and Literacy: Global Perspectives on Composing Unique Lives by Anne Haas Dyson reviewed by Yi Li ------------------------------ Sexual Misconduct in the Schoolhouse: Prevention Strategies for Principals, Teachers, Coaches, and Students by William L. Fibkins reviewed by Tiffany Karalis Commentaries Supporting Teacher Assessment Literacy: A Proposed Sequence of Learning by Caroline Wylie & Christine Lyon This commentary focuses on a proposal for sequencing teacher professional learning opportunities to develop a well-rounded understanding of assessment practices and processes. Education researcher Elizabeth Meyer discusses her co-authored article, Transgender and Gender-Creative Students in PK-12 Schools: What We Can Learn From Their Teachers . Watch and discuss this episode of The Voice on Vialogues . Engaging Youth in School (Kindle Book) by Gary Natriello This issue of the Teachers College Record Yearbook focuses on conceptualizations of engagement, the processes of engagement, portraits of engaging learning environments, and whole-school approaches to education. Learning In and Across Contexts: Reimagining Education (Kindle Book) by Gary Natriello This book focuses on four principles: seeing education holistically as inclusive of diverse learning contexts; recognizing how learning opportunities emerge both in and across contexts; advancing research on learning in ways that enable the study of learning over time and across contexts, and; attending to possible futures in the present. TCR Yearbooks - Call for Proposals by Gary Natriello The editors of the Teachers College Record announce a call for proposals for future TCR Yearbooks. Follow us on Twitter: @TCRecord ------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this newsletter, please browse to: https://www.tcrecord.org/MyAccount.asp?uid=100293&pwd=1384520 From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sat Nov 4 04:41:18 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 13:41:18 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences Message-ID: Dear all, For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim Hikmet, whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at each stage of his life, I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning from life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters and play writers. Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his novel, Life's good, brother. I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. Thank you. Ulvi I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was covered with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, a rococo table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the Black Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, thirty-fiveyear journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more precisely, a grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, blood-stained block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood rushes to my head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: death before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on this table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this cause? What can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if necessary! Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to travel, to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here on this rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara from there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, wining and dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole life in prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like Mustafa Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself these questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I first knew I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought about going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked around the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room in the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my eyes. Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept blindness. Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. Not books or word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how it is . From ablunden@mira.net Sat Nov 4 05:02:34 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 23:02:34 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read as well: http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Dear all, > > For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim Hikmet, > whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at each > stage of his life, > I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning from > life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters and > play writers. > Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his > novel, Life's good, brother. > > I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. > > Thank you. > > Ulvi > > I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with > carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was covered > with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, a > rococo > table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the > Black > Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > thirty-fiveyear > journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a > long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more precisely, a > grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de > France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > blood-stained > block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood rushes > to my > head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in > ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: death > before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on this > table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this cause? > What > can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How > many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if necessary! > Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to > travel, > to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here on > this > rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara from > there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, wining > and > dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole life in > prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like Mustafa > Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself these > questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I > first knew > I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, > crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, > blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought about > going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked around > the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room in > the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my eyes. > Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept blindness. > Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. Not > books or > word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. > Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the > surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how it is > . > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sat Nov 4 05:10:20 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 14:10:20 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> Message-ID: Thank you Andy. On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden wrote: > I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > as well: > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim Hikmet, > > whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at > each > > stage of his life, > > I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning from > > life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters > and > > play writers. > > Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his > > novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Ulvi > > > > I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with > > carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was covered > > with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, a > > rococo > > table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the > > Black > > Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > > thirty-fiveyear > > journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a > > long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more precisely, a > > grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de > > France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > > blood-stained > > block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood rushes > > to my > > head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in > > ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: > death > > before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on > this > > table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this > cause? > > What > > can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How > > many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if > necessary! > > Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to > > travel, > > to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here on > > this > > rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara from > > there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, wining > > and > > dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole > life in > > prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like > Mustafa > > Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself > these > > questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > > killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I > > first knew > > I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, > > crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, > > blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought > about > > going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked > around > > the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room > in > > the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my > eyes. > > Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept > blindness. > > Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. Not > > books or > > word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. > > Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the > > surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how it > is > > . > > > > > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sat Nov 4 07:33:30 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 16:33:30 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Not books or word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am". *Perezhivanie* is a Russian word, usually translated as ?a lived experience,? and used in connection with ?social situation of development in ( http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm ) In one, "social condition", and in the other "social situation" makes me think that the experience of seeing Anatolia (its poverty, human condition). Please note the possible reason why he refers to his social condition: His family is from Ottoman aristocracy. So he is detached from that social condition and entered into another aspect of social reality, a social reality which in class society not such individuals from upper classes encounter with. Thus, this life experience of Nazim Hikmet (to meet Anatolia) is not the result of his social condition but rather his rupture of this very social condition he was born into. On 4 November 2017 at 13:41, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Dear all, > > For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim Hikmet, > whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at each > stage of his life, > I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning from > life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters and > play writers. > Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his > novel, Life's good, brother. > > I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. > > Thank you. > > Ulvi > > I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with > carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was covered > with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, a > rococo > table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the > Black > Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > thirty-fiveyear > journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a > long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more precisely, a > grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de > France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > blood-stained > block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood rushes > to my > head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in > ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: death > before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on this > table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this cause? > What > can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How > many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if necessary! > Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to > travel, > to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here on > this > rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara from > there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, wining > and > dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole life > in > prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like > Mustafa > Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself > these questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I > first knew > I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, > crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, > blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought about > going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked > around > the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room in > the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my > eyes. > Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept blindness. > Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. Not > books or > word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. > Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the > surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how it > is . > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Nov 4 11:58:27 2017 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 18:58:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would suggest Sartre?s (existential Marxist) analysis of Flaubert? Martin On Nov 4, 2017, at 6:41 AM, Ulvi ??il > wrote: Dear all, For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim Hikmet, whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at each stage of his life, I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning from life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters and play writers. Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his novel, Life's good, brother. I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. Thank you. Ulvi I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was covered with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, a rococo table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the Black Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, thirty-fiveyear journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more precisely, a grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, blood-stained block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood rushes to my head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: death before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on this table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this cause? What can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if necessary! Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to travel, to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here on this rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara from there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, wining and dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole life in prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like Mustafa Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself these questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I first knew I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought about going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked around the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room in the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my eyes. Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept blindness. Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. Not books or word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how it is . From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sat Nov 4 12:08:09 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 21:08:09 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Martin. Does anyone know any study on a person's life, learning, formation in the light of the concept of perezhivanie in the centre? 4 Kas 2017 22:01 tarihinde "Martin John Packer" yazd?: > I would suggest Sartre?s (existential Marxist) analysis of Flaubert? > > 1857/dp/0226735095/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > 1509821640&sr=1-1&keywords=sartre+Flaubert+book+1&dpID= > 41CeMqdxQnL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch> > > > > > > Martin > > > > > On Nov 4, 2017, at 6:41 AM, Ulvi ??il vi.icil@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Dear all, > > For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim Hikmet, > whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at each > stage of his life, > I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning from > life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters and > play writers. > Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his > novel, Life's good, brother. > > I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. > > Thank you. > > Ulvi > > I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with > carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was covered > with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, a > rococo > table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the > Black > Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > thirty-fiveyear > journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a > long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more precisely, a > grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de > France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > blood-stained > block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood rushes > to my > head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in > ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: death > before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on this > table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this cause? > What > can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How > many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if necessary! > Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to > travel, > to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here on > this > rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara from > there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, wining > and > dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole life > in > prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like > Mustafa > Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself these > questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I > first knew > I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, > crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, > blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought about > going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked > around > the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room in > the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my > eyes. > Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept blindness. > Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. Not > books or > word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. > Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the > surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how it is > . > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Nov 4 15:30:55 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 22:30:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Geothe? The sorrows of young werther? Mike On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 12:08 PM Ulvi ??il wrote: > Thank you Martin. > > Does anyone know any study on a person's life, learning, formation in the > light of the concept of perezhivanie in the centre? > > 4 Kas 2017 22:01 tarihinde "Martin John Packer" > yazd?: > > > I would suggest Sartre?s (existential Marxist) analysis of Flaubert? > > > > > 1857/dp/0226735095/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > > 1509821640&sr=1-1&keywords=sartre+Flaubert+book+1&dpID= > > 41CeMqdxQnL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch> > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 4, 2017, at 6:41 AM, Ulvi ??il > vi.icil@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim Hikmet, > > whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at > each > > stage of his life, > > I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning from > > life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters > and > > play writers. > > Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his > > novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Ulvi > > > > I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with > > carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was covered > > with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, a > > rococo > > table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the > > Black > > Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > > thirty-fiveyear > > journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a > > long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more precisely, a > > grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de > > France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > > blood-stained > > block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood rushes > > to my > > head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in > > ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: > death > > before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on > this > > table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this > cause? > > What > > can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How > > many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if > necessary! > > Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to > > travel, > > to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here on > > this > > rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara from > > there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, wining > > and > > dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole life > > in > > prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like > > Mustafa > > Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself > these > > questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > > killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I > > first knew > > I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, > > crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, > > blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought > about > > going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked > > around > > the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room > in > > the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my > > eyes. > > Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept > blindness. > > Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. Not > > books or > > word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. > > Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the > > surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how it > is > > . > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Nov 4 15:49:54 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 07:49:54 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I take it that we are using "perezhivanie" to mean something like the reconstruction and reliving of an experience through word meanings. So what we are proposing is not simply a kind of account of how Hikmet's experiences (e.g. his birth in a noble Ottoman family, his adherence to communism, his exile in the Soviet Union, etc.) added up to make him an artist but more the reverse, an analysis of the texts that he wrote which would reveal them to be "overlivings" of a historically specific life. That's why Martin recommends Sartre. Sartre starts with Flaubert's texts (not just Bovary, but also A Sentimental Education and even the viciously racist and reactionary Salammbo). He uses these texts to locate Flaubert on a line of development that goes from Balzac to Zola. But it's a linguistic line of development, one that shows Balzac as fully engaged as an business entrepreneur rather than simply an artist and, paradoxically, Zola as a dispassionate and unengaged observer, who only takes up the case of Dreyfus as a hobby in his retirement, when his literature has dried up. This would be a big project but it would give you a lot of data. Ulvi would have to show how Hikmet's whole oeuvre related to the whole of Turkish literature: Turkish verbal artists before his time (the Ottoman poets) and also how he relates to the realist, biographical literature that came out after him (e.g. "Mehmet my hawk" and the popular literature, but also the more intellectualistic Turkish writing like "My name is red". You might start with something smaller. For example, I have always wondered: a) How does "Pourquoi Benerdji c'est suicide?" (I don't know the title in Turkish) relate to Hikmet's own experiences of internecine struggles in the Turkish Communist Party? b) How does his innovations in poetic meter (not to mention rhyme!) relate, on the one hand to his rejection of the court poetry of his time and on the other to his own interest in the dialogue around him? It might seem like a) is easier than b), because, as Vygotsky points out, "perezhivanie" always has two poles: there is the pole of experience and there is the pole of the "I" experiencing it. Because the latter is protected by "privileged access", at least insofar as bodily sensations are concerned, the former seems more sharable and hence more recoverable. I think that misses Sartre's point, which is not about how the content of the artist's life is recoverable from the content of the artwork but rather how the form of the artwork is recoverable from its content and vice versa. Maybe most of us tend to a processing of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that is relatively unmediated by form, even, and even especially, in our own lives. Apparently Flaubert never actually said "Bovary c'est moi!" (Anyway, I had always assumed he was referring to Charles, and not to Emma.) But the first English translation of Madame Bovary was done by a young woman who also committed suicide by poisoning herself after a long and disappointing extra-marital affair. Her name was Eleanor, and she too was a working class militant and a lifelong communist. She was also the youngest daughter of Karl Marx. David Kellogg On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 4:08 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Thank you Martin. > > Does anyone know any study on a person's life, learning, formation in the > light of the concept of perezhivanie in the centre? > > 4 Kas 2017 22:01 tarihinde "Martin John Packer" > yazd?: > > > I would suggest Sartre?s (existential Marxist) analysis of Flaubert? > > > > > 1857/dp/0226735095/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > > 1509821640&sr=1-1&keywords=sartre+Flaubert+book+1&dpID= > > 41CeMqdxQnL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch> > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 4, 2017, at 6:41 AM, Ulvi ??il > vi.icil@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim Hikmet, > > whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at > each > > stage of his life, > > I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning from > > life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters > and > > play writers. > > Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his > > novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Ulvi > > > > I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with > > carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was covered > > with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, a > > rococo > > table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the > > Black > > Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > > thirty-fiveyear > > journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a > > long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more precisely, a > > grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de > > France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > > blood-stained > > block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood rushes > > to my > > head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in > > ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: > death > > before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on > this > > table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this > cause? > > What > > can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How > > many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if > necessary! > > Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to > > travel, > > to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here on > > this > > rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara from > > there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, wining > > and > > dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole life > > in > > prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like > > Mustafa > > Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself > these > > questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > > killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I > > first knew > > I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, > > crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, > > blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought > about > > going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked > > around > > the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room > in > > the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my > > eyes. > > Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept > blindness. > > Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. Not > > books or > > word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. > > Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the > > surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how it > is > > . > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Nov 4 16:08:28 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 08:08:28 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] The True Story of Eleanor Marx Message-ID: The True Story of Eleanor Marx in Ten Parts From: Bergin, T. (2017). The Tragic Death of Eleanor Marx. London: Carcanet. 1. Eleanor of the eight-hour day Gets betrayed by Edward of the two faces. She orders: chloroform, with just some traces Of prussic acid?blue?a beautiful imitation. 2. She says it is for the dog but she is the dog. 3. The Housekeeper finds her dressed in white. It?s not her bridal dress, she?s not a bride. It?s from her childhood. She lies as if asleep. She has strangely purple cheeks. 4. In her ?white muslin dress? she is laid out. 5. The Corner is exasperated with feeble Edward. Coroner: Was the deceased your wife? Edward: Legally? Coroner: Were you married to the deceased? Edward: Not legally. Coroner: What was her age? Edward: Forty. (She was forty-three.) 6. On Tuesday: Fire? But the Phoenix, God of Suicide, Doesn?t rise. And Edward doesn?t claim her. Because now he has a real wife. 7. So the urn that holds the ashes of the soft summer dress And of the woman who knew the power of the proletariat And of the chunk of poisoned apple that she bit Are taken to the offices of the SDF. 8. The offices are in Maiden Lane. 9. And in the offices in Maiden Lane, There is a cupboard with two glass panes. And there they place her to remain For years and years. Her tears are dew. And she crushes nothing. 10. Nearly all of this is true. From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sat Nov 4 16:16:01 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 01:16:01 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Mike and David. 5 Kas 2017 01:52 tarihinde "David Kellogg" yazd?: > I take it that we are using "perezhivanie" to mean something like the > reconstruction and reliving of an experience through word meanings. So what > we are proposing is not simply a kind of account of how Hikmet's > experiences (e.g. his birth in a noble Ottoman family, his adherence to > communism, his exile in the Soviet Union, etc.) added up to make him an > artist but more the reverse, an analysis of the texts that he wrote which > would reveal them to be "overlivings" of a historically specific life. > > That's why Martin recommends Sartre. Sartre starts with Flaubert's texts > (not just Bovary, but also A Sentimental Education and even the viciously > racist and reactionary Salammbo). He uses these texts to locate Flaubert on > a line of development that goes from Balzac to Zola. But it's a linguistic > line of development, one that shows Balzac as fully engaged as an business > entrepreneur rather than simply an artist and, paradoxically, Zola as a > dispassionate and unengaged observer, who only takes up the case of Dreyfus > as a hobby in his retirement, when his literature has dried up. > > This would be a big project but it would give you a lot of data. Ulvi would > have to show how Hikmet's whole oeuvre related to the whole of Turkish > literature: Turkish verbal artists before his time (the Ottoman poets) and > also how he relates to the realist, biographical literature that came out > after him (e.g. "Mehmet my hawk" and the popular literature, but also the > more intellectualistic Turkish writing like "My name is red". > > You might start with something smaller. For example, I have always > wondered: > > a) How does "Pourquoi Benerdji c'est suicide?" (I don't know the title in > Turkish) relate to Hikmet's own experiences of internecine struggles in the > Turkish Communist Party? > > b) How does his innovations in poetic meter (not to mention rhyme!) relate, > on the one hand to his rejection of the court poetry of his time and on the > other to his own interest in the dialogue around him? > > It might seem like a) is easier than b), because, as Vygotsky points out, > "perezhivanie" always has two poles: there is the pole of experience and > there is the pole of the "I" experiencing it. Because the latter is > protected by "privileged access", at least insofar as bodily sensations are > concerned, the former seems more sharable and hence more recoverable. I > think that misses Sartre's point, which is not about how the content of the > artist's life is recoverable from the content of the artwork but rather how > the form of the artwork is recoverable from its content and vice versa. > > Maybe most of us tend to a processing of the slings and arrows of > outrageous fortune that is relatively unmediated by form, even, and even > especially, in our own lives. Apparently Flaubert never actually said > "Bovary c'est moi!" (Anyway, I had always assumed he was referring to > Charles, and not to Emma.) But the first English translation of Madame > Bovary was done by a young woman who also committed suicide by poisoning > herself after a long and disappointing extra-marital affair. Her name was > Eleanor, and she too was a working class militant and a lifelong communist. > She was also the youngest daughter of Karl Marx. > > David Kellogg > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 4:08 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > Thank you Martin. > > > > Does anyone know any study on a person's life, learning, formation in the > > light of the concept of perezhivanie in the centre? > > > > 4 Kas 2017 22:01 tarihinde "Martin John Packer" > > > yazd?: > > > > > I would suggest Sartre?s (existential Marxist) analysis of Flaubert? > > > > > > > > 1857/dp/0226735095/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > > > 1509821640&sr=1-1&keywords=sartre+Flaubert+book+1&dpID= > > > 41CeMqdxQnL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 4, 2017, at 6:41 AM, Ulvi ??il > > vi.icil@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim > Hikmet, > > > whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at > > each > > > stage of his life, > > > I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning > from > > > life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters > > and > > > play writers. > > > Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his > > > novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > > > I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > Ulvi > > > > > > I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with > > > carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was > covered > > > with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, > a > > > rococo > > > table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the > > > Black > > > Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > > > thirty-fiveyear > > > journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a > > > long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more > precisely, a > > > grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de > > > France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > > > blood-stained > > > block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood > rushes > > > to my > > > head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in > > > ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: > > death > > > before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on > > this > > > table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this > > cause? > > > What > > > can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How > > > many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if > > necessary! > > > Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to > > > travel, > > > to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here > on > > > this > > > rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara > from > > > there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, > wining > > > and > > > dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole > life > > > in > > > prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like > > > Mustafa > > > Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself > > these > > > questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > > > killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I > > > first knew > > > I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, > > > crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, > > > blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought > > about > > > going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked > > > around > > > the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room > > in > > > the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my > > > eyes. > > > Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept > > blindness. > > > Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. > Not > > > books or > > > word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. > > > Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the > > > surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how > it > > is > > > . > > > > > > > > > From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Sat Nov 4 16:17:30 2017 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 23:17:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The True Story of Eleanor Marx In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Kellogg and the 'summary' of Bergin's 'Eleanor Marx;- Thank you very much, David - I bought the book but was not able to understand / absorb the narrative as you have laid it out and I was disappointed - I shall go back to the poems now - so perceptive. Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK On 4 November 2017 at 23:08, David Kellogg wrote: > The True Story of Eleanor Marx in Ten Parts > From: Bergin, T. (2017). The Tragic Death of Eleanor Marx. London: > Carcanet. > > 1. Eleanor of the eight-hour day > > Gets betrayed by Edward of the two faces. > > She orders: chloroform, with just some traces > > Of prussic acid?blue?a beautiful imitation. > 2. She says it is for the dog but she is the dog. > 3. The Housekeeper finds her dressed in white. > > It?s not her bridal dress, she?s not a bride. > > It?s from her childhood. She lies as if asleep. > > She has strangely purple cheeks. > 4. In her ?white muslin dress? she is laid out. > 5. The Corner is exasperated with feeble Edward. > > Coroner: Was the deceased your wife? > > Edward: Legally? > > Coroner: Were you married to the deceased? > > Edward: Not legally. > > Coroner: What was her age? > > Edward: Forty. > > (She was forty-three.) > 6. On Tuesday: > > Fire? > > But the Phoenix, > > God of Suicide, > > Doesn?t rise. > > And Edward doesn?t claim her. > > Because now he has a real wife. > 7. So the urn that holds the ashes of the soft summer dress > > And of the woman who knew the power of the proletariat > > And of the chunk of poisoned apple that she bit > > Are taken to the offices of the SDF. > 8. The offices are in Maiden Lane. > 9. And in the offices in Maiden Lane, > > There is a cupboard with two glass panes. > > And there they place her to remain > > For years and years. > > Her tears are dew. > > And she crushes nothing. > 10. Nearly all of this is true. > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sat Nov 4 16:53:04 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 23:53:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication In-Reply-To: References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> , Message-ID: <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital to Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, Brecht, Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education to privileged access. How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking about privileged access (to immediate experience)? Here was Sasha's critique: "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." and that, "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own work, but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look something inferior." Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do with exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the issue of democratic education? My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond of Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply externalising something that had been formed internally but rather thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it that makes me suspicious. Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has been mobilised in the thread: "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an individuation of a social emotion" (D.K to Greg). I may be wrong or miss some of the background, but to me, this type of argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, who argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming magic arbitrary forces. I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that the most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of the relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. 40). If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche and ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary and objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two poles constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) and "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a fiction. It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction from the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's been posed here a fiction too? In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express their life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT community. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented activity and communication Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the Philosophy of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie"). At the other end of the pole is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond sullen and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians who reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight of a satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course Brecht was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He wonders why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this is the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an individuation of a social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist Party). Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: We have hunger, hunger, hunger Have hunger, hunger hunger Have hunger, hunger hunger Have thirst. If we don't get something, get, get, get We'll eat flies, flies, flies We'll eat flies, flies, flies >From the wall. If they don't taste good, taste, taste We'll eat snails, snails, snails, We'll eat snails, snails, snails, >From the forest. If they don't last, last, last We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses >From the grave. If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes >From the forest. (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks into virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the song much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would be far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) David Kellogg (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ dk On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open to > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > archived). > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think as > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being careful > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this is > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > -greg? > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just realized > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma wrote: > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > between > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > James > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged access > - > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > James > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of one of > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it happens > to > > be > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism implied > by > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this capacity > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these are > > WEIRD > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in some > > > cultural > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that is > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm thinking > of > > > the > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > seeing > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of practical > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > Volosinov's > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > different > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and not?)? > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, but > > seems > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the vein > of > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > subject/object, > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels is > > his > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is communicated > is > > a > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable thought > > "I'm > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > "Grandpa > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself". I think that when > > > Alan > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > seeing > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > concrete > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > address. > > > So > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not confounded. > > > >> > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole flock > > > takes > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than "communication". > > > What > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > afraid > > > of > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > geese > > > are > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; they > are > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > >> > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > pepper > > > on > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your cold. > > > There > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream in a > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > airplane > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated was > the > > > >> fact > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > >> > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. Adolfo > > > >> Garcia > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you can > say > > > "My > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that it > was > > > >> time > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was time > > for > > > >> breakfast". Mental processes are one thing, and material processes > > are > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > reflect > > > >> this > > > >> knowledge. > > > >> > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > >> > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > >> > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > >> > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett thinks > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has understood > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are actually > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > >> > > > >> David Kellogg > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > David > > > >> > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel their > > pain? > > > >> and > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson seems > to > > > >> feel > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they poke > > their > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to have > any > > > >> words > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and such a > > way, > > > >> you > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the expression > > > straight > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > >> > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. As > > Alan > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed to a > > cow > > > in > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > called?) > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > >> > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > >> > > > > >> > Julian > > > >> > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf > of > > > >> David > > > >> > Kellogg" > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > brain > > > >> > differently > > > >> > than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to MRI > > scans > > > >> or > > > >> > computerized tomography. In fact these can and do distinguish > > > >> between > > > >> > verbs > > > >> > of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky did > > > have > > > >> > access > > > >> > to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > >> > > > > >> > In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > words > > of > > > >> > another > > > >> > person. I can say, for example: > > > >> > > > > >> > Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with Marxism". > > > >> > > > > >> > I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > >> > > > > >> > Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with Marxism." > > > >> > > > > >> > I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as I > can > > > >> read > > > >> > Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > >> > > > > >> > However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > the > > > >> > actions or > > > >> > the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, for > > > >> example: > > > >> > > > > >> > "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > >> > > > > >> > "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > >> > > > > >> > When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > thought a > > > >> > word > > > >> > meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > >> > > > > >> > In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > cold." > > > >> This > > > >> > is > > > >> > originally a line from the revolutionary opera "Shajiabang", > > > about a > > > >> > woman > > > >> > who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > children > > > >> are > > > >> > acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > officer; > > > >> they > > > >> > accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > all > > > >> people > > > >> > who > > > >> > come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they go, > > > their > > > >> > tea is > > > >> > cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > >> > > > > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > >> > > > > >> > There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the toothache > of > > > >> another > > > >> > person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > words. > > > >> > Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > >> > "immediately", > > > >> > because thoughts and words have already made the dialectical > > > >> leap--the > > > >> > leap > > > >> > from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > >> > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > >> > > > > >> > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some people > > > >> > > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to be > > > >> > > the key category. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is activity > > > >> > > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > >> > > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > >> > > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > >> > > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > >> > > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > >> > > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision of > > > >> > > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > >> > > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > >> > > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > >> > > this move. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa does > > > >> > > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > >> > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > >> > > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > >> > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> > > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > >> > > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > myself I > > > >> > have > > > >> > > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > sense) > > > >> is a > > > >> > > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > > >> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > >> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > >> > > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > >> > > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > > Mike > > > >> > Cole; > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > >> > activity > > > >> > > and communication > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Dear Alfredo, > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You definitely > > > >> noticed > > > >> > the > > > >> > > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and developed > > > >> > technologies, > > > >> > > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > >> exploiters, > > > >> > between > > > >> > > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > opposite > > > >> > between > > > >> > > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > always > > > >> been > > > >> > a > > > >> > > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > cosmopolitan > > > >> class. > > > >> > > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > fight > > > >> and > > > >> > to kill > > > >> > > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > cooperate > > > >> > with > > > >> > > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to receive > > > >> > dividends from > > > >> > > their enterprises located on the territory of their "enemy." > > > Today > > > >> > Putin's > > > >> > > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > their > > > >> > capitals to > > > >> > > this West, buy property there, send their children to study > > > there > > > >> > and go > > > >> > > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > Poroshenko > > > >> - > > > >> > the > > > >> > > president of the country that was subje > > > >> > > > cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > chocolate > > > >> > > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > >> > > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > States, > > > the > > > >> > policy > > > >> > > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > each > > > >> other > > > >> > the > > > >> > > working people of different ethnic groups and confessions, > on > > > >> their > > > >> > > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > >> creatures. > > > >> > > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity incited > by > > > the > > > >> > ruling > > > >> > > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > working > > > >> > people > > > >> > > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > public > > > >> > > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > constructed > > > >> > allegedly on > > > >> > > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred years > > ago, > > > >> the > > > >> > > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, the > > same > > > >> task > > > >> > is > > > >> > > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > so-called > > > >> > "cultural" > > > >> > > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > biological > > > >> > differences > > > >> > > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > >> > > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, but > > also > > > >> to > > > >> > the > > > >> > > "psychology of culture". > > > >> > > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only in > > words > > > >> but > > > >> > also > > > >> > > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is not > > the > > > >> > ability of > > > >> > > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of words, > > but > > > >> to > > > >> > be > > > >> > > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects > of > > > >> labor. > > > >> > > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > believed > > > >> > that the > > > >> > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is > > > just a > > > >> > verbal > > > >> > > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver to > > us, > > > >> then > > > >> > any > > > >> > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > seem > > > to > > > >> us > > > >> > the > > > >> > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing > > his > > > >> own > > > >> > work, > > > >> > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will > > look > > > >> > something > > > >> > > inferior. > > > >> > > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of Vygotsky's > > > >> theory, > > > >> > open > > > >> > > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a > > > >> > transition > > > >> > > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that is > > > >> capable > > > >> > of > > > >> > > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This > > > >> implies > > > >> > that > > > >> > > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > different > > > >> > way in > > > >> > > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This qualitative > > > >> > difference is > > > >> > > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of reality. > > > >> > Therefore, > > > >> > > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in the > > true > > > >> > sense of > > > >> > > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > inseparable > > > >> part > > > >> > of the > > > >> > > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > the > > > >> domain > > > >> > of > > > >> > > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an empty > > > sound. > > > >> A > > > >> > word > > > >> > > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of speech. > One > > > >> > cannot say > > > >> > > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of the > > word > > > >> > taken > > > >> > > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It is > > both > > > at > > > >> > one and > > > >> > > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > >> > > > nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be that > of > > > >> > semantic > > > >> > > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > meaningful > > > >> > aspect of > > > >> > > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will produce > > > >> answers > > > >> > to > > > >> > > our questions concerning the relationship between thinking > and > > > >> speech > > > >> > > because this relationship is already contained in the unit > of > > > >> > analysis. In > > > >> > > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > unit, > > > we > > > >> > will > > > >> > > come to understand a great deal that is of direct relevance > to > > > the > > > >> > problem > > > >> > > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the nature > of > > > >> verbal > > > >> > > thinking." > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not the > > > >> > slightest > > > >> > > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > attempt > > > to > > > >> > combine > > > >> > > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with the > > > school > > > >> > textbook > > > >> > > of formal logic. > > > >> > > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > detailed > > > >> > > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this analysis > > in > > > >> the > > > >> > very > > > >> > > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > >> assertion > > > >> > that > > > >> > > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a maximally > > > >> aphoristic > > > >> > > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > >> > materialists, the > > > >> > > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is the > > > >> > instrument of > > > >> > > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > generalization > > > >> is > > > >> > not a > > > >> > > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > >> > generalizing the > > > >> > > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means of > > > >> > analyzing all > > > >> > > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > optics > > > of > > > >> > > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > >> ideality.) > > > >> > > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results of > > > >> Luria's > > > >> > trip > > > >> > > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > >> illiterate > > > >> > > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > >> > > > r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe and > > > melon > > > >> are > > > >> > > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > formal > > > >> > logical > > > >> > > operations with words denoting these things, is declared a > > > >> primitive > > > >> > > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap who > > > knows > > > >> > how to > > > >> > > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > the > > > >> melon > > > >> > only > > > >> > > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is declared > > the > > > >> > bearer of > > > >> > > scientific consciousness. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > come > > > to > > > >> the > > > >> > > value of instruments of labor, not only for the distribution > > of > > > >> > material > > > >> > > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > wealth, > > > for > > > >> > the > > > >> > > distribution of the ability to think, for the distribution > of > > > >> > culture. Only > > > >> > > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > culture > > as > > > >> the > > > >> > > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > accumulated > > > >> by > > > >> > > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of such > > based > > > >> on > > > >> > idea of > > > >> > > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > able > > to > > > >> get > > > >> > out of > > > >> > > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > arbitrariness. > > > >> > > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > set > > > the > > > >> > task of > > > >> > > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > considered > > > that > > > >> > the > > > >> > > first real step in this direction was made by his friend and > > > >> student > > > >> > AN > > > >> > > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > >> > > > Sasha > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >> > >; > > > >> > > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > >; > > > >> > Martin > > > >> > > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? < > > > >> > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > >> > > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > >> > > > ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > >> > > > ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > >> activity > > > >> > and > > > >> > > communication > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > >> > > Dear Sasha, all, > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > issues > > > at > > > >> > home > > > >> > > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have limited > > > >> > participation > > > >> > > anywhere else than home life. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like a > > > >> concrete > > > >> > aspect > > > >> > > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning of > > this > > > >> > > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical (real) > > > >> relevance > > > >> > to us > > > >> > > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is this > > > >> 'real,' > > > >> > and is > > > >> > > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > addressing > > > >> any > > > >> > and > > > >> > > everyone) > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Alfredo > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > >> > > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > >> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Alfredo > > > Jornet > > > >> > Gil; > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > >> > > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > >> > activity > > > >> > > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going to > > > >> discuss > > > >> > the > > > >> > > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > most > > > >> > mature work. > > > >> > > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > >> "Dialectics > > > >> > of the > > > >> > > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am aware > > that > > > >> > there is a > > > >> > > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > >> adequately > > > >> > > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > Marx's > > > >> > theory was > > > >> > > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > better > > > to > > > >> > study > > > >> > > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of ?Das > > > >> Kapital?. > > > >> > Along > > > >> > > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that the > > > >> > discussion of > > > >> > > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > themes. > > > I > > > >> > think > > > >> > > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > "steps", > > > >> but > > > >> > > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that after > > that > > > >> try > > > >> > to rise > > > >> > > from it to the seco > > > >> > > > nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young age, > it > > > >> seems > > > >> > to me > > > >> > > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > discussion > > > of > > > >> the > > > >> > > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > preparation > > to > > > >> > thinking, > > > >> > > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method can > not > > > be > > > >> > studied > > > >> > > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > Perhaps > > > >> this > > > >> > seems > > > >> > > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are not > > > >> familiar > > > >> > with > > > >> > > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > >> discussing > > > >> > the > > > >> > > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > continue > > > >> to > > > >> > carry > > > >> > > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of the > > term > > > >> > activity. > > > >> > > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for translators > > from > > > >> > Russian (or > > > >> > > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > very > > > >> > informative. > > > >> > > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden completely > > > >> exhausted > > > >> > this > > > >> > > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > discuss > > > >> the > > > >> > > question: what is the justificati > > > >> > > > on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > Where, > > > >> in > > > >> > any > > > >> > > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of activity, > > not > > > >> > just uses > > > >> > > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which it > is > > > >> used > > > >> > > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > >> activities) of > > > >> > > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > >> functions?, > > > >> > ?speech > > > >> > > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > >> > personality?- all > > > >> > > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, with > > > Spinoza > > > >> > and > > > >> > > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > >> discussing > > > >> > the > > > >> > > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > Vygotsky > > > >> > and > > > >> > > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > necessary > > > to > > > >> > try to > > > >> > > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, proceeding > > from > > > >> THE > > > >> > REAL > > > >> > > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is impossible > > to > > > >> > understand > > > >> > > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > such > > > >> > theoretical > > > >> > > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > >> introduces a > > > >> > > category of object-oriented a > > > >> > > > ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little use > > for > > > >> > solving > > > >> > > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never said > > ?B?. > > > >> > Having > > > >> > > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis of > > the > > > >> > > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not go > > > further > > > >> > failing > > > >> > > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract category.Once > > > again, > > > >> > from > > > >> > > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > >> > > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological Theory > of > > > >> > Activity" we > > > >> > > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > >> fundamentally > > > >> > new > > > >> > > approaches to education, based on dialectical, revolutionary > > > >> method > > > >> > of > > > >> > > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary to > > begin > > > >> not > > > >> > so > > > >> > > much - to learn to listen to each other... > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > >> > > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > >> > > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > activity > > > >> and > > > >> > > communication > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. My > > > point > > > >> is > > > >> > that > > > >> > > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s analysis, > > and > > > >> > about its > > > >> > > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order of > > the > > > >> > treatment > > > >> > > in Capital. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > ablunden@mira.net > > > >> > > > >> > > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3. > htm > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Of course the method of presentation must differ in form > > > >> > > > from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the > > > >> > > > material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > >> > > > development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > >> > > > after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > >> > > > adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > >> > > > the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > >> > > > in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a > > > >> > > > mere a priori construction. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Andy > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > > > >> > > > Andy Blunden > > > >> > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> > > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > >> > > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the details > of > > > >> Marx?s > > > >> > > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > Grundrisse. > > > The > > > >> > two have > > > >> > > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the order > of > > > >> > presentation > > > >> > > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Nov 4 17:04:54 2017 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 00:04:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication In-Reply-To: <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Hang on, doesn?t Vygotsky write of the toddler's *perception* becoming generalized, as words are used to name and locate perceptible objects in a group of related objects? That?s hardly a model of the senses delivering raw material that is then organized by language and presented to thought. It is an account of the way that speaking, and later thinking, transform perceiving. But even if the model were the former, why would a more verbose vocabulary lead to more wisdom? More generalization, perhaps, but that?s a double-edged sword. Martin On Nov 4, 2017, at 6:53 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own work, but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look something inferior." From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sat Nov 4 17:36:29 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 00:36:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication In-Reply-To: References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no>, Message-ID: <1509842189349.57715@iped.uio.no> Yes Martin, that seems like a straight forward argument to address Sasha's critique to me too, for it would mean that Vygotsky is nowhere arguing that ideology, thinking, is built upon acts of sensation, but, if anything, the other way around, that sensation is organized from without as the child takes part in social life. I read Volosinov arguing for the same thing. But Sasha's critique may be more nuanced than that? Cheers, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin John Packer Sent: 05 November 2017 01:04 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication Hang on, doesn?t Vygotsky write of the toddler's *perception* becoming generalized, as words are used to name and locate perceptible objects in a group of related objects? That?s hardly a model of the senses delivering raw material that is then organized by language and presented to thought. It is an account of the way that speaking, and later thinking, transform perceiving. But even if the model were the former, why would a more verbose vocabulary lead to more wisdom? More generalization, perhaps, but that?s a double-edged sword. Martin On Nov 4, 2017, at 6:53 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own work, but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look something inferior." From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Nov 4 20:33:01 2017 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 21:33:01 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [AAA_ACYIG] Fwd: Assistant Professor - Childhood Studies - Canada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Job of possible interest. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- *From:* Patrick Ryan *Date:* November 4, 2017 at 7:09:14 AM PDT *To:* Patrick Ryan *Subject:* *Assistant Professor - Childhood Studies - Canada* Dear Colleagues: Please Circulate as you see fit; apologies if this has come to you from more than one venue. Best, Pat Ryan *Assistant Professor in Childhood and Social Institutions* King?s University College at Western University, a Catholic Liberal Arts College, invites applications for a probationary tenure-track appointment at the rank of Assistant Professor in the Department of Interdisciplinary Programs, effective July 1, 2018 (subject to budgetary approval). Candidates should hold a Ph.D., or be near completion. The Childhood and Social Institutions Program at King?s University College is a four-year undergraduate program dedicated to the study of childhood and youth through discursive, contextual and experiential lenses. The program is committed to the idea that children are social actors, that childhood is a cultural construction, and is an historically embedded discourse. More on the program can be found at https://www.kings.uwo.ca/ academics/childhood-and-social-institutions/ Successful applicants for this position will ideally have research, expertise and training around childhood advocacy and/or the participation of children and young people in any of the social institutions within which childhood takes place: the school, the family, the legal system, aspects of political engagement in governmental and non-governmental organizations, etc., although other areas of interest may be considered. We are open to the consideration of applications with a research focus on childhood from a variety of disciplinary backgrounds including, but not limited to, anthropology, childhood studies, education, geography, history, media studies, philosophy, political science, or sociology. Salary will be commensurate with qualifications and experience. Applicants should submit a letter of application, *curriculum vitae*, the names of three academics willing to write a letter of reference, a teaching portfolio (including teaching evaluations) and all relevant publications, in a single PDF file to jobsearchcsi@kings.uwo.ca. The letter of application should be addressed to Dr. Sally McNamee, Chair, Department of Interdisciplinary Programs. All materials should be sent electronically to the above address by *December 31, 2017*. Queries about the position may be sent tosmcnamee@uwo.ca. King?s University College is committed to Employment Equity, welcomes diversity in the workplace, and encourages applications from all qualified individuals, regardless of ethnicity, race, disability, sexual orientation, or gender identity. The King?s University College website is http://www.kings.uwo.ca King?s University College is committed to recognizing the dignity and independence of all and seeks to ensure that persons with disabilities have genuine, open and unhindered access to the College?s employment opportunities. If you require an accommodation during the recruitment process, please contact Human Resources atHRkuc@kings.uwo.ca for assistance. _______________________________________________ American Anthropological Association's Anthropology of Children and Youth Interest Group Listserv. AAA_ACYIG@binhost.com To view the message archives, please visit: https://lists.capalon.com/pipermail/aaa_acyig/ For help with this list, please contact the List Administrator acyig.aaa AT gmail DOT com You may also manage your own subscription preferences at: https://lists.capalon.com/lists/listinfo/aaa_acyig Note: To stop receiving email from this list, please set your account to DISABLED. ACYIG hosts Collaborative Research Networks! Visit the sites for CRN Mobilities, CRN Lifecourse, and/or CRN Students to sign up for their listservs (http://acyig.americananthro.org/crns/). AAA_ACYIG mailing list AAA_ACYIG@binhost.com https://lists.capalon.com/lists/listinfo/aaa_acyig -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Nov 5 10:17:38 2017 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=AAHaydi_Zulfei=E2=80=AC_=E2=80=AA?=) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 18:17:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication In-Reply-To: <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> Alfredo, I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get engaged in any more discussion. If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully and with care and attention and gratitude. You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such condemnation. It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual base. The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over ones become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative of their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and slave owners (old and new). When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just a 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. Here verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship evil! Voila Voloshinov!! Best Haydi? ? From: Alfredo Jornet Gil To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital to Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, Brecht, Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education to privileged access. How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking about privileged access (to immediate experience)? Here was Sasha's critique: "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." and that, "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own work, but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look something inferior." Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do with exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the issue of democratic education? My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond of Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply externalising something that had? been formed internally but rather thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it that makes me suspicious. Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has been mobilised in the thread: "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an individuation of a social emotion"? (D.K to Greg). I may be wrong or miss some of the background,? but to me, this type of argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, who argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming magic arbitrary forces. I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that the most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of the relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. 40). If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche and ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary and objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two poles constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) and "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a fiction. It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction from the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's been posed here a fiction too? In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express their life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT community. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:? Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented activity and communication Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the Philosophy of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie").? At the other end of the pole is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond sullen and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians who reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight of a satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course Brecht was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He wonders why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this is the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an individuation of a social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist Party). Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: We have hunger, hunger, hunger Have hunger, hunger hunger Have hunger, hunger hunger Have thirst. If we don't get something, get, get, get We'll eat flies, flies, flies We'll eat flies, flies, flies >From the wall. If they don't taste good, taste, taste We'll eat snails, snails, snails, We'll eat snails, snails, snails, >From the forest. If they don't last, last, last We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses >From the grave. If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes >From the forest. (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks into virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the song much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would be far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) David Kellogg (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ dk On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open to > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > archived). > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think as > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being careful > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this is > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > -greg? > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just realized > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma wrote: > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > between > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > James > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged access > - > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > James > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of one of > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it happens > to > > be > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism implied > by > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this capacity > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these are > > WEIRD > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in some > > > cultural > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that is > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm thinking > of > > > the > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > seeing > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of practical > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > Volosinov's > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > different > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and not?)? > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, but > > seems > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the vein > of > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > subject/object, > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels is > > his > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is communicated > is > > a > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable thought > > "I'm > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > "Grandpa > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself".? I think that when > > > Alan > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > seeing > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > concrete > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > address. > > > So > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not confounded. > > > >> > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole flock > > > takes > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than "communication". > > > What > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > afraid > > > of > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > geese > > > are > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; they > are > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > >> > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > pepper > > > on > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your cold. > > > There > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream in a > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > airplane > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated was > the > > > >> fact > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > >> > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. Adolfo > > > >> Garcia > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you can > say > > > "My > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that it > was > > > >> time > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was time > > for > > > >> breakfast".? Mental processes are one thing, and material processes > > are > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > reflect > > > >> this > > > >> knowledge. > > > >> > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > >> > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > >> > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > >> > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett thinks > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has understood > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are actually > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > >> > > > >> David Kellogg > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > David > > > >> > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel their > > pain? > > > >> and > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson seems > to > > > >> feel > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they poke > > their > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to have > any > > > >> words > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and such a > > way, > > > >> you > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the expression > > > straight > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > >> > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. As > > Alan > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed to a > > cow > > > in > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > called?) > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > >> > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > >> > > > > >> > Julian > > > >> > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf > of > > > >> David > > > >> > Kellogg" > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? ? All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > brain > > > >> > differently > > > >> >? ? than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to MRI > > scans > > > >> or > > > >> >? ? computerized tomography. In fact these can and do distinguish > > > >> between > > > >> > verbs > > > >> >? ? of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky did > > > have > > > >> > access > > > >> >? ? to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > words > > of > > > >> > another > > > >> >? ? person. I can say, for example: > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with Marxism". > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with Marxism." > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as I > can > > > >> read > > > >> >? ? Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > the > > > >> > actions or > > > >> >? ? the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, for > > > >> example: > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > thought a > > > >> > word > > > >> >? ? meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > cold." > > > >> This > > > >> > is > > > >> >? ? originally a line from the revolutionary opera "Shajiabang", > > > about a > > > >> > woman > > > >> >? ? who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > children > > > >> are > > > >> >? ? acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > officer; > > > >> they > > > >> >? ? accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > all > > > >> people > > > >> > who > > > >> >? ? come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they go, > > > their > > > >> > tea is > > > >> >? ? cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the toothache > of > > > >> another > > > >> >? ? person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > words. > > > >> >? ? Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > >> > "immediately", > > > >> >? ? because thoughts and words have already made the dialectical > > > >> leap--the > > > >> > leap > > > >> >? ? from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? David Kellogg > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some people > > > >> >? ? > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to be > > > >> >? ? > the key category. > > > >> >? ? > > > > >> >? ? > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is activity > > > >> >? ? > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > >> >? ? > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > >> >? ? > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > >> >? ? > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > >> >? ? > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > >> >? ? > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision of > > > >> >? ? > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > >> >? ? > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > >> >? ? > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > >> >? ? > this move. > > > >> >? ? > > > > >> >? ? > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa does > > > >> >? ? > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > >> >? ? > > > > >> >? ? > Andy > > > >> >? ? > > > > >> >? ? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > >> >? ? > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > >> >? ? > > > > >> >? ? > ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > > > >> >? ? > Andy Blunden > > > >> >? ? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> >? ? > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > >> >? ? > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > myself I > > > >> > have > > > >> >? ? > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > sense) > > > >> is a > > > >> >? ? > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > -----Original Message----- > > > >> >? ? > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > >> >? ? > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > >> >? ? > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > >> >? ? > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > > Mike > > > >> > Cole; > > > >> >? ? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > >> >? ? > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > >> > activity > > > >> >? ? > and communication > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > Dear Alfredo, > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You definitely > > > >> noticed > > > >> > the > > > >> >? ? > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and developed > > > >> > technologies, > > > >> >? ? > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > >> exploiters, > > > >> > between > > > >> >? ? > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > opposite > > > >> > between > > > >> >? ? > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > always > > > >> been > > > >> > a > > > >> >? ? > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > cosmopolitan > > > >> class. > > > >> >? ? > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > fight > > > >> and > > > >> > to kill > > > >> >? ? > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > cooperate > > > >> > with > > > >> >? ? > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to receive > > > >> > dividends from > > > >> >? ? > their enterprises located on the territory of their "enemy." > > > Today > > > >> > Putin's > > > >> >? ? > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > their > > > >> > capitals to > > > >> >? ? > this West, buy property there, send their children to study > > > there > > > >> > and go > > > >> >? ? > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > Poroshenko > > > >> - > > > >> > the > > > >> >? ? > president of the country that was subje > > > >> >? ? > >? cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > chocolate > > > >> >? ? > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > >> >? ? > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > States, > > > the > > > >> > policy > > > >> >? ? > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > each > > > >> other > > > >> > the > > > >> >? ? > working people of different ethnic groups and confessions, > on > > > >> their > > > >> >? ? > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > >> creatures. > > > >> >? ? > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity incited > by > > > the > > > >> > ruling > > > >> >? ? > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > working > > > >> > people > > > >> >? ? > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > public > > > >> >? ? > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > constructed > > > >> > allegedly on > > > >> >? ? > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred years > > ago, > > > >> the > > > >> >? ? > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, the > > same > > > >> task > > > >> > is > > > >> >? ? > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > so-called > > > >> > "cultural" > > > >> >? ? > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > biological > > > >> > differences > > > >> >? ? > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > >> >? ? > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, but > > also > > > >> to > > > >> > the > > > >> >? ? > "psychology of culture". > > > >> >? ? > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only in > > words > > > >> but > > > >> > also > > > >> >? ? > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is not > > the > > > >> > ability of > > > >> >? ? > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of words, > > but > > > >> to > > > >> > be > > > >> >? ? > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects > of > > > >> labor. > > > >> >? ? > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > believed > > > >> > that the > > > >> >? ? > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is > > > just a > > > >> > verbal > > > >> >? ? > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver to > > us, > > > >> then > > > >> > any > > > >> >? ? > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > seem > > > to > > > >> us > > > >> > the > > > >> >? ? > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing > > his > > > >> own > > > >> > work, > > > >> >? ? > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will > > look > > > >> > something > > > >> >? ? > inferior. > > > >> >? ? > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of Vygotsky's > > > >> theory, > > > >> > open > > > >> >? ? > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a > > > >> > transition > > > >> >? ? > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that is > > > >> capable > > > >> > of > > > >> >? ? > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This > > > >> implies > > > >> > that > > > >> >? ? > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > different > > > >> > way in > > > >> >? ? > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This qualitative > > > >> > difference is > > > >> >? ? > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of reality. > > > >> > Therefore, > > > >> >? ? > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in the > > true > > > >> > sense of > > > >> >? ? > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > inseparable > > > >> part > > > >> > of the > > > >> >? ? > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > the > > > >> domain > > > >> > of > > > >> >? ? > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an empty > > > sound. > > > >> A > > > >> > word > > > >> >? ? > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of speech. > One > > > >> > cannot say > > > >> >? ? > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of the > > word > > > >> > taken > > > >> >? ? > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It is > > both > > > at > > > >> > one and > > > >> >? ? > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > >> >? ? > >? nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be that > of > > > >> > semantic > > > >> >? ? > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > meaningful > > > >> > aspect of > > > >> >? ? > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will produce > > > >> answers > > > >> > to > > > >> >? ? > our questions concerning the relationship between thinking > and > > > >> speech > > > >> >? ? > because this relationship is already contained in the unit > of > > > >> > analysis. In > > > >> >? ? > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > unit, > > > we > > > >> > will > > > >> >? ? > come to understand a great deal that is of direct relevance > to > > > the > > > >> > problem > > > >> >? ? > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the nature > of > > > >> verbal > > > >> >? ? > thinking." > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not the > > > >> > slightest > > > >> >? ? > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > attempt > > > to > > > >> > combine > > > >> >? ? > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with the > > > school > > > >> > textbook > > > >> >? ? > of formal logic. > > > >> >? ? > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > detailed > > > >> >? ? > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this analysis > > in > > > >> the > > > >> > very > > > >> >? ? > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > >> assertion > > > >> > that > > > >> >? ? > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a maximally > > > >> aphoristic > > > >> >? ? > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > >> > materialists, the > > > >> >? ? > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is the > > > >> > instrument of > > > >> >? ? > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > generalization > > > >> is > > > >> > not a > > > >> >? ? > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > >> > generalizing the > > > >> >? ? > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means of > > > >> > analyzing all > > > >> >? ? > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > optics > > > of > > > >> >? ? > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > >> ideality.) > > > >> >? ? > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results of > > > >> Luria's > > > >> > trip > > > >> >? ? > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > >> illiterate > > > >> >? ? > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > >> >? ? > >? r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe and > > > melon > > > >> are > > > >> >? ? > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > formal > > > >> > logical > > > >> >? ? > operations with words denoting these things, is declared a > > > >> primitive > > > >> >? ? > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap who > > > knows > > > >> > how to > > > >> >? ? > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > the > > > >> melon > > > >> > only > > > >> >? ? > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is declared > > the > > > >> > bearer of > > > >> >? ? > scientific consciousness. > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > come > > > to > > > >> the > > > >> >? ? > value of instruments of labor, not only for the distribution > > of > > > >> > material > > > >> >? ? > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > wealth, > > > for > > > >> > the > > > >> >? ? > distribution of the ability to think, for the distribution > of > > > >> > culture. Only > > > >> >? ? > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > culture > > as > > > >> the > > > >> >? ? > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > accumulated > > > >> by > > > >> >? ? > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of such > > based > > > >> on > > > >> > idea of > > > >> >? ? > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > able > > to > > > >> get > > > >> > out of > > > >> >? ? > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > arbitrariness. > > > >> >? ? > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > set > > > the > > > >> > task of > > > >> >? ? > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > considered > > > that > > > >> > the > > > >> >? ? > first real step in this direction was made by his friend and > > > >> student > > > >> > AN > > > >> >? ? > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > >> >? ? > > Sasha > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > >? ? ? ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > >> >? ? > >? ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >> > >; > > > >> >? ? > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > >; > > > >> > Martin > > > >> >? ? > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? < > > > >> >? ? > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > >> >? ? > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > >> >? ? > >? ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > >> >? ? > >? ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > >> activity > > > >> > and > > > >> >? ? > communication > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > >> >? ? > Dear Sasha, all, > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > issues > > > at > > > >> > home > > > >> >? ? > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have limited > > > >> > participation > > > >> >? ? > anywhere else than home life. > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like a > > > >> concrete > > > >> > aspect > > > >> >? ? > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning of > > this > > > >> >? ? > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical (real) > > > >> relevance > > > >> > to us > > > >> >? ? > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is this > > > >> 'real,' > > > >> > and is > > > >> >? ? > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > addressing > > > >> any > > > >> > and > > > >> >? ? > everyone) > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > Alfredo > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > >> >? ? > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > >> >? ? > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Alfredo > > > Jornet > > > >> > Gil; > > > >> >? ? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > >> >? ? > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > >> > activity > > > >> >? ? > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going to > > > >> discuss > > > >> > the > > > >> >? ? > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > most > > > >> > mature work. > > > >> >? ? > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > >> "Dialectics > > > >> > of the > > > >> >? ? > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am aware > > that > > > >> > there is a > > > >> >? ? > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > >> adequately > > > >> >? ? > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > Marx's > > > >> > theory was > > > >> >? ? > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > better > > > to > > > >> > study > > > >> >? ? > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of ?Das > > > >> Kapital?. > > > >> > Along > > > >> >? ? > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that the > > > >> > discussion of > > > >> >? ? > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > themes. > > > I > > > >> > think > > > >> >? ? > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > "steps", > > > >> but > > > >> >? ? > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that after > > that > > > >> try > > > >> > to rise > > > >> >? ? > from it to the seco > > > >> >? ? > >? nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young age, > it > > > >> seems > > > >> > to me > > > >> >? ? > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > discussion > > > of > > > >> the > > > >> >? ? > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > preparation > > to > > > >> > thinking, > > > >> >? ? > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method can > not > > > be > > > >> > studied > > > >> >? ? > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > Perhaps > > > >> this > > > >> > seems > > > >> >? ? > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are not > > > >> familiar > > > >> > with > > > >> >? ? > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > >> discussing > > > >> > the > > > >> >? ? > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > continue > > > >> to > > > >> > carry > > > >> >? ? > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of the > > term > > > >> > activity. > > > >> >? ? > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for translators > > from > > > >> > Russian (or > > > >> >? ? > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > very > > > >> > informative. > > > >> >? ? > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden completely > > > >> exhausted > > > >> > this > > > >> >? ? > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > discuss > > > >> the > > > >> >? ? > question: what is the justificati > > > >> >? ? > >? on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > Where, > > > >> in > > > >> > any > > > >> >? ? > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of activity, > > not > > > >> > just uses > > > >> >? ? > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which it > is > > > >> used > > > >> >? ? > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > >> activities) of > > > >> >? ? > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > >> functions?, > > > >> > ?speech > > > >> >? ? > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > >> > personality?- all > > > >> >? ? > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, with > > > Spinoza > > > >> > and > > > >> >? ? > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > >> discussing > > > >> > the > > > >> >? ? > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > Vygotsky > > > >> > and > > > >> >? ? > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > necessary > > > to > > > >> > try to > > > >> >? ? > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, proceeding > > from > > > >> THE > > > >> > REAL > > > >> >? ? > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is impossible > > to > > > >> > understand > > > >> >? ? > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > such > > > >> > theoretical > > > >> >? ? > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > >> introduces a > > > >> >? ? > category of object-oriented a > > > >> >? ? > >? ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little use > > for > > > >> > solving > > > >> >? ? > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never said > > ?B?. > > > >> > Having > > > >> >? ? > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis of > > the > > > >> >? ? > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not go > > > further > > > >> > failing > > > >> >? ? > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract category.Once > > > again, > > > >> > from > > > >> >? ? > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > >> >? ? > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological Theory > of > > > >> > Activity" we > > > >> >? ? > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > >> fundamentally > > > >> > new > > > >> >? ? > approaches to education, based on dialectical, revolutionary > > > >> method > > > >> > of > > > >> >? ? > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary to > > begin > > > >> not > > > >> > so > > > >> >? ? > much - to learn to listen to each other... > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > >> >? ? > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > >> >? ? > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > >> >? ? > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > activity > > > >> and > > > >> >? ? > communication > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. My > > > point > > > >> is > > > >> > that > > > >> >? ? > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s analysis, > > and > > > >> > about its > > > >> >? ? > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order of > > the > > > >> > treatment > > > >> >? ? > in Capital. > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > Martin > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > ablunden@mira.net > > > >> > > > >> >? ? > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3. > htm > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > >? Of course the method of presentation must differ in form > > > >> >? ? > >? from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the > > > >> >? ? > >? material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > >> >? ? > >? development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > >> >? ? > >? after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > >> >? ? > >? adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > >> >? ? > >? the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > >> >? ? > >? in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a > > > >> >? ? > >? mere a priori construction. > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > Andy > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > > > >> >? ? > > Andy Blunden > > > >> >? ? > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> >? ? > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > >> >? ? > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the details > of > > > >> Marx?s > > > >> >? ? > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > Grundrisse. > > > The > > > >> > two have > > > >> >? ? > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the order > of > > > >> > presentation > > > >> >? ? > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > Martin > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > >> >? ? > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: VOLOSINOV QUOTES_merged4-2_1_7.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 150058 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20171105/e46b8901/attachment.pdf From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Mon Nov 6 00:10:27 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:10:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication In-Reply-To: <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no>, <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could you or anyone else help me understand? I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, reading the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of verbal communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and the sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs 99% of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? Thanks, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication Alfredo, I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get engaged in any more discussion. If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully and with care and attention and gratitude. You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such condemnation. It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual base. The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over ones become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative of their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and slave owners (old and new). When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just a 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. Here verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship evil! Voila Voloshinov!! Best Haydi From: Alfredo Jornet Gil To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital to Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, Brecht, Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education to privileged access. How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking about privileged access (to immediate experience)? Here was Sasha's critique: "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." and that, "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own work, but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look something inferior." Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do with exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the issue of democratic education? My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond of Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply externalising something that had been formed internally but rather thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it that makes me suspicious. Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has been mobilised in the thread: "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an individuation of a social emotion"? (D.K to Greg). I may be wrong or miss some of the background, but to me, this type of argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, who argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming magic arbitrary forces. I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that the most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of the relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. 40). If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche and ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary and objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two poles constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) and "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a fiction. It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction from the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's been posed here a fiction too? In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express their life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT community. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented activity and communication Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the Philosophy of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie"). At the other end of the pole is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond sullen and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians who reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight of a satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course Brecht was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He wonders why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this is the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an individuation of a social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist Party). Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: We have hunger, hunger, hunger Have hunger, hunger hunger Have hunger, hunger hunger Have thirst. If we don't get something, get, get, get We'll eat flies, flies, flies We'll eat flies, flies, flies >From the wall. If they don't taste good, taste, taste We'll eat snails, snails, snails, We'll eat snails, snails, snails, >From the forest. If they don't last, last, last We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses >From the grave. If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes >From the forest. (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks into virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the song much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would be far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) David Kellogg (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ dk On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open to > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > archived). > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think as > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being careful > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this is > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > -greg? > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just realized > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma wrote: > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > between > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > James > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged access > - > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > James > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of one of > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it happens > to > > be > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism implied > by > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this capacity > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these are > > WEIRD > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in some > > > cultural > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that is > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm thinking > of > > > the > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > seeing > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of practical > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > Volosinov's > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > different > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and not?)? > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, but > > seems > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the vein > of > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > subject/object, > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels is > > his > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is communicated > is > > a > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable thought > > "I'm > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > "Grandpa > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself". I think that when > > > Alan > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > seeing > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > concrete > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > address. > > > So > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not confounded. > > > >> > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole flock > > > takes > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than "communication". > > > What > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > afraid > > > of > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > geese > > > are > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; they > are > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > >> > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > pepper > > > on > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your cold. > > > There > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream in a > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > airplane > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated was > the > > > >> fact > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > >> > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. Adolfo > > > >> Garcia > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you can > say > > > "My > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that it > was > > > >> time > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was time > > for > > > >> breakfast". Mental processes are one thing, and material processes > > are > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > reflect > > > >> this > > > >> knowledge. > > > >> > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > >> > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > >> > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > >> > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett thinks > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has understood > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are actually > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > >> > > > >> David Kellogg > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > David > > > >> > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel their > > pain? > > > >> and > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson seems > to > > > >> feel > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they poke > > their > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to have > any > > > >> words > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and such a > > way, > > > >> you > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the expression > > > straight > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > >> > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. As > > Alan > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed to a > > cow > > > in > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > called?) > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > >> > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > >> > > > > >> > Julian > > > >> > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf > of > > > >> David > > > >> > Kellogg" > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >? All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > brain > > > >> > differently > > > >> >? than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to MRI > > scans > > > >> or > > > >> >? computerized tomography. In fact these can and do distinguish > > > >> between > > > >> > verbs > > > >> >? of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky did > > > have > > > >> > access > > > >> >? to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > >> > > > > >> >? In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > words > > of > > > >> > another > > > >> >? person. I can say, for example: > > > >> > > > > >> >? Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with Marxism". > > > >> > > > > >> >? I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > >> > > > > >> >? Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with Marxism." > > > >> > > > > >> >? I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as I > can > > > >> read > > > >> >? Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > >> > > > > >> >? However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > the > > > >> > actions or > > > >> >? the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, for > > > >> example: > > > >> > > > > >> >? "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > >> > > > > >> >? "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > >> > > > > >> >? When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > thought a > > > >> > word > > > >> >? meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > >> > > > > >> >? In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > cold." > > > >> This > > > >> > is > > > >> >? originally a line from the revolutionary opera "Shajiabang", > > > about a > > > >> > woman > > > >> >? who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > children > > > >> are > > > >> >? acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > officer; > > > >> they > > > >> >? accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > all > > > >> people > > > >> > who > > > >> >? come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they go, > > > their > > > >> > tea is > > > >> >? cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > >> > > > > >> >? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > >> > > > > >> >? There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the toothache > of > > > >> another > > > >> >? person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > words. > > > >> >? Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > >> > "immediately", > > > >> >? because thoughts and words have already made the dialectical > > > >> leap--the > > > >> > leap > > > >> >? from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > >> > > > > >> >? David Kellogg > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >? other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > >> > > > > >> >? On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >? > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some people > > > >> >? > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to be > > > >> >? > the key category. > > > >> >? > > > > >> >? > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is activity > > > >> >? > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > >> >? > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > >> >? > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > >> >? > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > >> >? > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > >> >? > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision of > > > >> >? > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > >> >? > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > >> >? > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > >> >? > this move. > > > >> >? > > > > >> >? > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa does > > > >> >? > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > >> >? > > > > >> >? > Andy > > > >> >? > > > > >> >? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > >> >? > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > >> >? > > > > >> >? > ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > > > >> >? > Andy Blunden > > > >> >? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> >? > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > >> >? > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > myself I > > > >> > have > > > >> >? > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > sense) > > > >> is a > > > >> >? > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > -----Original Message----- > > > >> >? > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > >> >? > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > >> >? > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > >> >? > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > > Mike > > > >> > Cole; > > > >> >? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > >> >? > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > >> > activity > > > >> >? > and communication > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > Dear Alfredo, > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You definitely > > > >> noticed > > > >> > the > > > >> >? > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and developed > > > >> > technologies, > > > >> >? > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > >> exploiters, > > > >> > between > > > >> >? > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > opposite > > > >> > between > > > >> >? > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > always > > > >> been > > > >> > a > > > >> >? > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > cosmopolitan > > > >> class. > > > >> >? > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > fight > > > >> and > > > >> > to kill > > > >> >? > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > cooperate > > > >> > with > > > >> >? > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to receive > > > >> > dividends from > > > >> >? > their enterprises located on the territory of their "enemy." > > > Today > > > >> > Putin's > > > >> >? > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > their > > > >> > capitals to > > > >> >? > this West, buy property there, send their children to study > > > there > > > >> > and go > > > >> >? > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > Poroshenko > > > >> - > > > >> > the > > > >> >? > president of the country that was subje > > > >> >? > >? cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > chocolate > > > >> >? > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > >> >? > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > States, > > > the > > > >> > policy > > > >> >? > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > each > > > >> other > > > >> > the > > > >> >? > working people of different ethnic groups and confessions, > on > > > >> their > > > >> >? > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > >> creatures. > > > >> >? > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity incited > by > > > the > > > >> > ruling > > > >> >? > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > working > > > >> > people > > > >> >? > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > public > > > >> >? > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > constructed > > > >> > allegedly on > > > >> >? > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred years > > ago, > > > >> the > > > >> >? > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, the > > same > > > >> task > > > >> > is > > > >> >? > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > so-called > > > >> > "cultural" > > > >> >? > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > biological > > > >> > differences > > > >> >? > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > >> >? > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, but > > also > > > >> to > > > >> > the > > > >> >? > "psychology of culture". > > > >> >? > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only in > > words > > > >> but > > > >> > also > > > >> >? > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is not > > the > > > >> > ability of > > > >> >? > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of words, > > but > > > >> to > > > >> > be > > > >> >? > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects > of > > > >> labor. > > > >> >? > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > believed > > > >> > that the > > > >> >? > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is > > > just a > > > >> > verbal > > > >> >? > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver to > > us, > > > >> then > > > >> > any > > > >> >? > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > seem > > > to > > > >> us > > > >> > the > > > >> >? > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing > > his > > > >> own > > > >> > work, > > > >> >? > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will > > look > > > >> > something > > > >> >? > inferior. > > > >> >? > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of Vygotsky's > > > >> theory, > > > >> > open > > > >> >? > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a > > > >> > transition > > > >> >? > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that is > > > >> capable > > > >> > of > > > >> >? > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This > > > >> implies > > > >> > that > > > >> >? > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > different > > > >> > way in > > > >> >? > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This qualitative > > > >> > difference is > > > >> >? > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of reality. > > > >> > Therefore, > > > >> >? > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in the > > true > > > >> > sense of > > > >> >? > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > inseparable > > > >> part > > > >> > of the > > > >> >? > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > the > > > >> domain > > > >> > of > > > >> >? > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an empty > > > sound. > > > >> A > > > >> > word > > > >> >? > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of speech. > One > > > >> > cannot say > > > >> >? > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of the > > word > > > >> > taken > > > >> >? > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It is > > both > > > at > > > >> > one and > > > >> >? > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > >> >? > >? nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be that > of > > > >> > semantic > > > >> >? > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > meaningful > > > >> > aspect of > > > >> >? > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will produce > > > >> answers > > > >> > to > > > >> >? > our questions concerning the relationship between thinking > and > > > >> speech > > > >> >? > because this relationship is already contained in the unit > of > > > >> > analysis. In > > > >> >? > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > unit, > > > we > > > >> > will > > > >> >? > come to understand a great deal that is of direct relevance > to > > > the > > > >> > problem > > > >> >? > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the nature > of > > > >> verbal > > > >> >? > thinking." > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not the > > > >> > slightest > > > >> >? > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > attempt > > > to > > > >> > combine > > > >> >? > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with the > > > school > > > >> > textbook > > > >> >? > of formal logic. > > > >> >? > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > detailed > > > >> >? > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this analysis > > in > > > >> the > > > >> > very > > > >> >? > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > >> assertion > > > >> > that > > > >> >? > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a maximally > > > >> aphoristic > > > >> >? > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > >> > materialists, the > > > >> >? > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is the > > > >> > instrument of > > > >> >? > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > generalization > > > >> is > > > >> > not a > > > >> >? > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > >> > generalizing the > > > >> >? > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means of > > > >> > analyzing all > > > >> >? > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > optics > > > of > > > >> >? > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > >> ideality.) > > > >> >? > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results of > > > >> Luria's > > > >> > trip > > > >> >? > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > >> illiterate > > > >> >? > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > >> >? > >? r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe and > > > melon > > > >> are > > > >> >? > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > formal > > > >> > logical > > > >> >? > operations with words denoting these things, is declared a > > > >> primitive > > > >> >? > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap who > > > knows > > > >> > how to > > > >> >? > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > the > > > >> melon > > > >> > only > > > >> >? > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is declared > > the > > > >> > bearer of > > > >> >? > scientific consciousness. > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > come > > > to > > > >> the > > > >> >? > value of instruments of labor, not only for the distribution > > of > > > >> > material > > > >> >? > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > wealth, > > > for > > > >> > the > > > >> >? > distribution of the ability to think, for the distribution > of > > > >> > culture. Only > > > >> >? > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > culture > > as > > > >> the > > > >> >? > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > accumulated > > > >> by > > > >> >? > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of such > > based > > > >> on > > > >> > idea of > > > >> >? > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > able > > to > > > >> get > > > >> > out of > > > >> >? > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > arbitrariness. > > > >> >? > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > set > > > the > > > >> > task of > > > >> >? > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > considered > > > that > > > >> > the > > > >> >? > first real step in this direction was made by his friend and > > > >> student > > > >> > AN > > > >> >? > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > >> >? > > Sasha > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > >? ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > >> >? > >? ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >> > >; > > > >> >? > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > >; > > > >> > Martin > > > >> >? > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? < > > > >> >? > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > >> >? > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > >> >? > >? ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > >> >? > >? ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > >> activity > > > >> > and > > > >> >? > communication > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > >> >? > Dear Sasha, all, > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > issues > > > at > > > >> > home > > > >> >? > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have limited > > > >> > participation > > > >> >? > anywhere else than home life. > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like a > > > >> concrete > > > >> > aspect > > > >> >? > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning of > > this > > > >> >? > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical (real) > > > >> relevance > > > >> > to us > > > >> >? > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is this > > > >> 'real,' > > > >> > and is > > > >> >? > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > addressing > > > >> any > > > >> > and > > > >> >? > everyone) > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > Alfredo > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > >> >? > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > >> >? > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Alfredo > > > Jornet > > > >> > Gil; > > > >> >? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > >> >? > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > >> > activity > > > >> >? > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going to > > > >> discuss > > > >> > the > > > >> >? > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > most > > > >> > mature work. > > > >> >? > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > >> "Dialectics > > > >> > of the > > > >> >? > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am aware > > that > > > >> > there is a > > > >> >? > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > >> adequately > > > >> >? > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > Marx's > > > >> > theory was > > > >> >? > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > better > > > to > > > >> > study > > > >> >? > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of ?Das > > > >> Kapital?. > > > >> > Along > > > >> >? > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that the > > > >> > discussion of > > > >> >? > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > themes. > > > I > > > >> > think > > > >> >? > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > "steps", > > > >> but > > > >> >? > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that after > > that > > > >> try > > > >> > to rise > > > >> >? > from it to the seco > > > >> >? > >? nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young age, > it > > > >> seems > > > >> > to me > > > >> >? > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > discussion > > > of > > > >> the > > > >> >? > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > preparation > > to > > > >> > thinking, > > > >> >? > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method can > not > > > be > > > >> > studied > > > >> >? > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > Perhaps > > > >> this > > > >> > seems > > > >> >? > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are not > > > >> familiar > > > >> > with > > > >> >? > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > >> discussing > > > >> > the > > > >> >? > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > continue > > > >> to > > > >> > carry > > > >> >? > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of the > > term > > > >> > activity. > > > >> >? > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for translators > > from > > > >> > Russian (or > > > >> >? > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > very > > > >> > informative. > > > >> >? > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden completely > > > >> exhausted > > > >> > this > > > >> >? > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > discuss > > > >> the > > > >> >? > question: what is the justificati > > > >> >? > >? on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > Where, > > > >> in > > > >> > any > > > >> >? > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of activity, > > not > > > >> > just uses > > > >> >? > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which it > is > > > >> used > > > >> >? > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > >> activities) of > > > >> >? > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > >> functions?, > > > >> > ?speech > > > >> >? > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > >> > personality?- all > > > >> >? > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, with > > > Spinoza > > > >> > and > > > >> >? > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > >> discussing > > > >> > the > > > >> >? > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > Vygotsky > > > >> > and > > > >> >? > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > necessary > > > to > > > >> > try to > > > >> >? > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, proceeding > > from > > > >> THE > > > >> > REAL > > > >> >? > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is impossible > > to > > > >> > understand > > > >> >? > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > such > > > >> > theoretical > > > >> >? > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > >> introduces a > > > >> >? > category of object-oriented a > > > >> >? > >? ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little use > > for > > > >> > solving > > > >> >? > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never said > > ?B?. > > > >> > Having > > > >> >? > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis of > > the > > > >> >? > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not go > > > further > > > >> > failing > > > >> >? > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract category.Once > > > again, > > > >> > from > > > >> >? > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > >> >? > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological Theory > of > > > >> > Activity" we > > > >> >? > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > >> fundamentally > > > >> > new > > > >> >? > approaches to education, based on dialectical, revolutionary > > > >> method > > > >> > of > > > >> >? > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary to > > begin > > > >> not > > > >> > so > > > >> >? > much - to learn to listen to each other... > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > >> >? > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > >> >? > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > >> >? > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > activity > > > >> and > > > >> >? > communication > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. My > > > point > > > >> is > > > >> > that > > > >> >? > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s analysis, > > and > > > >> > about its > > > >> >? > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order of > > the > > > >> > treatment > > > >> >? > in Capital. > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > Martin > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > ablunden@mira.net > > > >> > > > >> >? > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3. > htm > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > >? Of course the method of presentation must differ in form > > > >> >? > >? from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the > > > >> >? > >? material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > >> >? > >? development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > >> >? > >? after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > >> >? > >? adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > >> >? > >? the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > >> >? > >? in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a > > > >> >? > >? mere a priori construction. > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > Andy > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > > > >> >? > > Andy Blunden > > > >> >? > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> >? > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > >> >? > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the details > of > > > >> Marx?s > > > >> >? > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > Grundrisse. > > > The > > > >> > two have > > > >> >? > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the order > of > > > >> > presentation > > > >> >? > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > Martin > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > > >> >? > > > > >> >? > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Nov 6 01:37:20 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 18:37:20 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication In-Reply-To: <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: I'll try, Alfredo. I think that Sasha and Haydi are arguing that if we accept language as sign, we risk treating it as a superstructure that has freed itself from its base, that is, the labor of the worker and the peasant, labor which has the power to materially transform a material environment. This is a move they oppose, because there is the danger that a semiotic superstructure will supply itself a "different" base--that is, a base not in the laborer who materially transforms the material environment but rather in the thinker who ideologically transforms an ideal context and thus acts on himself or herself but leaves the worker and the peasant in the lurch. Both Sasha and Haydi consider Leontiev and activity as an important countermeasure to this semanticizing tendency in Vygotsky.This is an argument with a lot of history, and it is one that I reject. I don't simply reject it on behalf of the child, who has to master signs before she or he can master tools (and even when the child can master tools, viz. toy tools, the child must master them as signs--as meanings--and not as a means to transform the social environment. I also reject it on the part of the worker and the peasant, as did Brecht, as did Vygotsky, and...as did Volosinov. For if Haydi is going to read the whole of Volosinov, he must indeed select aspects of Volosinov that he does not like, including Volosinov's very Marxist distinction between the way that the peasant experiences hunger and the way that the worker experiences it: these are indeed different poles of the same experience, and one can go much closer to the 'we pole' than the other. (The reason why the Chinese famine of 1959-1961 was so devestating was precisely that it was experienced very differently in the cities than in the countryside.) The use of "pole" is not mine; it is that of Volosinov (p. 87). Similarly, the use of "water into wine" is not mine; it is that of Vygotsky (Psychology of Art, p. 243). Vygotsky is rejecting the Bukharinist notion of Proletkult, that of the artist as a Christlike figure, multiplying bread and fishes for the masses. For Vygotsky, this isn't much of a miracle at all, it is precisely what peasants and workers quite without art every single day of their working lives. If we want art to permeate life, we cannot do it by reducing art to the level of everyday experience: that is not art permeating life, but only the tired old nineteenth century slogan of life permeating art, repeated as Proletkult, as Soviet socialist realism, and consequently, as Marx would say, as farce. David Kellogg On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could you > or anyone else help me understand? > > I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist > approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, reading > the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of verbal > communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and the > sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). > > Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila > Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs 99% > of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? > > Thanks, > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? > Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > Alfredo, > I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get > engaged in any more discussion. > > If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully > and with care and attention and gratitude. > > You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to > replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support > from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece > which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of > the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not > tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such > condemnation. > > It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual base. > The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over > one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over ones > become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the > previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative of > their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the > whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and > slave owners (old and new). > > When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore > but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. > > Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as > measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just a > 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. Here > verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having > co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , > sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 > pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship > evil! > Voila Voloshinov!! > > Best > Haydi > > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital to > Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, Brecht, > Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education > to privileged access. > > How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking > about privileged access (to immediate experience)? > > Here was Sasha's critique: > > "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience > (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of > object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." > > and that, > > "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal > 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own work, > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look something > inferior." > > Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we > ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do with > exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest > for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words > supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the > latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the issue > of democratic education? > > My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed > out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems > quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than > some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a > quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond of > Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply > externalising something that had been formed internally but rather > thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical > activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) > experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it that > makes me suspicious. > > Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has > been mobilised in the thread: > > "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" > goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and > alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not > primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an > individuation of a social emotion" (D.K to Greg). > > I may be wrong or miss some of the background, but to me, this type of > argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, who > argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on > converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming > magic arbitrary forces. > > I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it > "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that the > most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of the > relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes > resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a > materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. 40). > If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche and > ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary and > objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that > social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. > > I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an > I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it > is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov > in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two poles > constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: > > "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward > expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) > > and > > "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material > (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a fiction. > It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction from > the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). > > But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness > is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's been > posed here a fiction too? > > In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express their > life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their > production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', > 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT > community. > > Alfredo > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > activity and communication > > Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the Philosophy > of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one > end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be > communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is > provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this > experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, > the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er > lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie"). At the other end of the pole > is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is > over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond sullen > and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the > peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians who > reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight of a > satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. > (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both > poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my > English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) > > Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course Brecht > was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, > where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He wonders > why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much > more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by > Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this is > the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I > experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we > experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically > transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an > "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an individuation of a > social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on > Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually > supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help > yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist > Party). > > Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: > > We have hunger, hunger, hunger > Have hunger, hunger hunger > Have hunger, hunger hunger > Have thirst. > > If we don't get something, get, get, get > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > >From the wall. > > If they don't taste good, taste, taste > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > >From the forest. > > If they don't last, last, last > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > >From the grave. > > If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > >From the forest. > > (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks into > virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the song > much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" > with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would be > far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) > > David Kellogg > > (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine > Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love > with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ > > dk > > On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open to > > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > > archived). > > > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think as > > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being careful > > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this > is > > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > > > -greg? > > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just realized > > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma wrote: > > > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > > between > > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > > > James > > > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged > access > > - > > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > > > James > > > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of one > of > > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it happens > > to > > > be > > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism > implied > > by > > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this > capacity > > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these are > > > WEIRD > > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in some > > > > cultural > > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that is > > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm thinking > > of > > > > the > > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > > seeing > > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of practical > > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > > Volosinov's > > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > > different > > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and not?)? > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, but > > > seems > > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the vein > > of > > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > > subject/object, > > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels > is > > > his > > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is communicated > > is > > > a > > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable thought > > > "I'm > > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > > "Grandpa > > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself". I think that > when > > > > Alan > > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > > seeing > > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > > concrete > > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > > address. > > > > So > > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not confounded. > > > > >> > > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole > flock > > > > takes > > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than > "communication". > > > > What > > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > > afraid > > > > of > > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > > geese > > > > are > > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; they > > are > > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > > >> > > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > > pepper > > > > on > > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your > cold. > > > > There > > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream in > a > > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > > airplane > > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated was > > the > > > > >> fact > > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > > >> > > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. > Adolfo > > > > >> Garcia > > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you can > > say > > > > "My > > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that it > > was > > > > >> time > > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was > time > > > for > > > > >> breakfast". Mental processes are one thing, and material > processes > > > are > > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > > reflect > > > > >> this > > > > >> knowledge. > > > > >> > > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > > >> > > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > > >> > > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > > >> > > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett > thinks > > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has > understood > > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are > actually > > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > > >> > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > David > > > > >> > > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel their > > > pain? > > > > >> and > > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson > seems > > to > > > > >> feel > > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they poke > > > their > > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to have > > any > > > > >> words > > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and such a > > > way, > > > > >> you > > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the expression > > > > straight > > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. As > > > Alan > > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed to > a > > > cow > > > > in > > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > > called?) > > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Julian > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on > behalf > > of > > > > >> David > > > > >> > Kellogg" > > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > > brain > > > > >> > differently > > > > >> > than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to MRI > > > scans > > > > >> or > > > > >> > computerized tomography. In fact these can and do distinguish > > > > >> between > > > > >> > verbs > > > > >> > of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky > did > > > > have > > > > >> > access > > > > >> > to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > > words > > > of > > > > >> > another > > > > >> > person. I can say, for example: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with Marxism". > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with Marxism." > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as I > > can > > > > >> read > > > > >> > Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > > the > > > > >> > actions or > > > > >> > the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, for > > > > >> example: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > > >> > > > > > >> > "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > > >> > > > > > >> > When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > > thought a > > > > >> > word > > > > >> > meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > > cold." > > > > >> This > > > > >> > is > > > > >> > originally a line from the revolutionary opera "Shajiabang", > > > > about a > > > > >> > woman > > > > >> > who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > > children > > > > >> are > > > > >> > acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > > officer; > > > > >> they > > > > >> > accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > > all > > > > >> people > > > > >> > who > > > > >> > come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they go, > > > > their > > > > >> > tea is > > > > >> > cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > > >> > > > > > >> > There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the toothache > > of > > > > >> another > > > > >> > person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > > words. > > > > >> > Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > > >> > "immediately", > > > > >> > because thoughts and words have already made the dialectical > > > > >> leap--the > > > > >> > leap > > > > >> > from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some people > > > > >> > > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to be > > > > >> > > the key category. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is activity > > > > >> > > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > > >> > > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > > >> > > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > > >> > > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > > >> > > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > > >> > > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision > of > > > > >> > > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > > >> > > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > > >> > > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > > >> > > this move. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa > does > > > > >> > > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > > >> > > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > >> > > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > > >> > > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > > myself I > > > > >> > have > > > > >> > > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > > sense) > > > > >> is a > > > > >> > > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > >> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > > >> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > > >> > > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > > >> > > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > > > Mike > > > > >> > Cole; > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > oriented > > > > >> > activity > > > > >> > > and communication > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Dear Alfredo, > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You definitely > > > > >> noticed > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and > developed > > > > >> > technologies, > > > > >> > > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > > >> exploiters, > > > > >> > between > > > > >> > > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > > opposite > > > > >> > between > > > > >> > > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > > always > > > > >> been > > > > >> > a > > > > >> > > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > > cosmopolitan > > > > >> class. > > > > >> > > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > > fight > > > > >> and > > > > >> > to kill > > > > >> > > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > > cooperate > > > > >> > with > > > > >> > > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to > receive > > > > >> > dividends from > > > > >> > > their enterprises located on the territory of their > "enemy." > > > > Today > > > > >> > Putin's > > > > >> > > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > > their > > > > >> > capitals to > > > > >> > > this West, buy property there, send their children to study > > > > there > > > > >> > and go > > > > >> > > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > > Poroshenko > > > > >> - > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > president of the country that was subje > > > > >> > > > cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > > chocolate > > > > >> > > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > > >> > > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > > States, > > > > the > > > > >> > policy > > > > >> > > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > > each > > > > >> other > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > working people of different ethnic groups and confessions, > > on > > > > >> their > > > > >> > > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > > >> creatures. > > > > >> > > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity incited > > by > > > > the > > > > >> > ruling > > > > >> > > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > > working > > > > >> > people > > > > >> > > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > > public > > > > >> > > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > > constructed > > > > >> > allegedly on > > > > >> > > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred years > > > ago, > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, the > > > same > > > > >> task > > > > >> > is > > > > >> > > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > > so-called > > > > >> > "cultural" > > > > >> > > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > > biological > > > > >> > differences > > > > >> > > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > > >> > > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, but > > > also > > > > >> to > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > "psychology of culture". > > > > >> > > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only in > > > words > > > > >> but > > > > >> > also > > > > >> > > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is > not > > > the > > > > >> > ability of > > > > >> > > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of > words, > > > but > > > > >> to > > > > >> > be > > > > >> > > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects > > of > > > > >> labor. > > > > >> > > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > > believed > > > > >> > that the > > > > >> > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is > > > > just a > > > > >> > verbal > > > > >> > > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver to > > > us, > > > > >> then > > > > >> > any > > > > >> > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > > seem > > > > to > > > > >> us > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant > doing > > > his > > > > >> own > > > > >> > work, > > > > >> > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will > > > look > > > > >> > something > > > > >> > > inferior. > > > > >> > > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of Vygotsky's > > > > >> theory, > > > > >> > open > > > > >> > > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a > > > > >> > transition > > > > >> > > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that > is > > > > >> capable > > > > >> > of > > > > >> > > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This > > > > >> implies > > > > >> > that > > > > >> > > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > > different > > > > >> > way in > > > > >> > > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This > qualitative > > > > >> > difference is > > > > >> > > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of > reality. > > > > >> > Therefore, > > > > >> > > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in the > > > true > > > > >> > sense of > > > > >> > > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > > inseparable > > > > >> part > > > > >> > of the > > > > >> > > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > > the > > > > >> domain > > > > >> > of > > > > >> > > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an empty > > > > sound. > > > > >> A > > > > >> > word > > > > >> > > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of speech. > > One > > > > >> > cannot say > > > > >> > > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of the > > > word > > > > >> > taken > > > > >> > > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It is > > > both > > > > at > > > > >> > one and > > > > >> > > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > > >> > > > nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be that > > of > > > > >> > semantic > > > > >> > > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > > meaningful > > > > >> > aspect of > > > > >> > > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will > produce > > > > >> answers > > > > >> > to > > > > >> > > our questions concerning the relationship between thinking > > and > > > > >> speech > > > > >> > > because this relationship is already contained in the unit > > of > > > > >> > analysis. In > > > > >> > > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > > unit, > > > > we > > > > >> > will > > > > >> > > come to understand a great deal that is of direct relevance > > to > > > > the > > > > >> > problem > > > > >> > > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the nature > > of > > > > >> verbal > > > > >> > > thinking." > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not > the > > > > >> > slightest > > > > >> > > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > > attempt > > > > to > > > > >> > combine > > > > >> > > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with the > > > > school > > > > >> > textbook > > > > >> > > of formal logic. > > > > >> > > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > > detailed > > > > >> > > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this > analysis > > > in > > > > >> the > > > > >> > very > > > > >> > > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > > >> assertion > > > > >> > that > > > > >> > > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a maximally > > > > >> aphoristic > > > > >> > > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > > >> > materialists, the > > > > >> > > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is the > > > > >> > instrument of > > > > >> > > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > > generalization > > > > >> is > > > > >> > not a > > > > >> > > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > > >> > generalizing the > > > > >> > > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means of > > > > >> > analyzing all > > > > >> > > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > > optics > > > > of > > > > >> > > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > > >> ideality.) > > > > >> > > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results > of > > > > >> Luria's > > > > >> > trip > > > > >> > > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > > >> illiterate > > > > >> > > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > > >> > > > r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe and > > > > melon > > > > >> are > > > > >> > > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > > formal > > > > >> > logical > > > > >> > > operations with words denoting these things, is declared a > > > > >> primitive > > > > >> > > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap > who > > > > knows > > > > >> > how to > > > > >> > > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > > the > > > > >> melon > > > > >> > only > > > > >> > > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is declared > > > the > > > > >> > bearer of > > > > >> > > scientific consciousness. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > > come > > > > to > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > value of instruments of labor, not only for the > distribution > > > of > > > > >> > material > > > > >> > > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > > wealth, > > > > for > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > distribution of the ability to think, for the distribution > > of > > > > >> > culture. Only > > > > >> > > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > > culture > > > as > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > > accumulated > > > > >> by > > > > >> > > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of such > > > based > > > > >> on > > > > >> > idea of > > > > >> > > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > > able > > > to > > > > >> get > > > > >> > out of > > > > >> > > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > > arbitrariness. > > > > >> > > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > > set > > > > the > > > > >> > task of > > > > >> > > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > > considered > > > > that > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > first real step in this direction was made by his friend > and > > > > >> student > > > > >> > AN > > > > >> > > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > > >> > > > Sasha > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> > >; > > > > >> > > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > > >; > > > > >> > Martin > > > > >> > > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? < > > > > >> > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > > >> > > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > > >> > > > ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > > >> activity > > > > >> > and > > > > >> > > communication > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > > >> > > Dear Sasha, all, > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > > issues > > > > at > > > > >> > home > > > > >> > > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have limited > > > > >> > participation > > > > >> > > anywhere else than home life. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like a > > > > >> concrete > > > > >> > aspect > > > > >> > > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning of > > > this > > > > >> > > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical (real) > > > > >> relevance > > > > >> > to us > > > > >> > > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is this > > > > >> 'real,' > > > > >> > and is > > > > >> > > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > > addressing > > > > >> any > > > > >> > and > > > > >> > > everyone) > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Alfredo > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > > >> > > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > > >> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Alfredo > > > > Jornet > > > > >> > Gil; > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > >> > > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > oriented > > > > >> > activity > > > > >> > > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going > to > > > > >> discuss > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > > most > > > > >> > mature work. > > > > >> > > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > > >> "Dialectics > > > > >> > of the > > > > >> > > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am aware > > > that > > > > >> > there is a > > > > >> > > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > > >> adequately > > > > >> > > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > > Marx's > > > > >> > theory was > > > > >> > > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > > better > > > > to > > > > >> > study > > > > >> > > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of ?Das > > > > >> Kapital?. > > > > >> > Along > > > > >> > > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that the > > > > >> > discussion of > > > > >> > > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > > themes. > > > > I > > > > >> > think > > > > >> > > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > > "steps", > > > > >> but > > > > >> > > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that after > > > that > > > > >> try > > > > >> > to rise > > > > >> > > from it to the seco > > > > >> > > > nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young age, > > it > > > > >> seems > > > > >> > to me > > > > >> > > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > > discussion > > > > of > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > > preparation > > > to > > > > >> > thinking, > > > > >> > > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method can > > not > > > > be > > > > >> > studied > > > > >> > > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > > Perhaps > > > > >> this > > > > >> > seems > > > > >> > > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are not > > > > >> familiar > > > > >> > with > > > > >> > > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > > >> discussing > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > > continue > > > > >> to > > > > >> > carry > > > > >> > > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of the > > > term > > > > >> > activity. > > > > >> > > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for translators > > > from > > > > >> > Russian (or > > > > >> > > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > > very > > > > >> > informative. > > > > >> > > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden completely > > > > >> exhausted > > > > >> > this > > > > >> > > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > > discuss > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > question: what is the justificati > > > > >> > > > on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > > Where, > > > > >> in > > > > >> > any > > > > >> > > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of > activity, > > > not > > > > >> > just uses > > > > >> > > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which it > > is > > > > >> used > > > > >> > > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > > >> activities) of > > > > >> > > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > > >> functions?, > > > > >> > ?speech > > > > >> > > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > > >> > personality?- all > > > > >> > > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, with > > > > Spinoza > > > > >> > and > > > > >> > > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > > >> discussing > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > > Vygotsky > > > > >> > and > > > > >> > > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > > necessary > > > > to > > > > >> > try to > > > > >> > > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, proceeding > > > from > > > > >> THE > > > > >> > REAL > > > > >> > > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is > impossible > > > to > > > > >> > understand > > > > >> > > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > > such > > > > >> > theoretical > > > > >> > > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > > >> introduces a > > > > >> > > category of object-oriented a > > > > >> > > > ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little use > > > for > > > > >> > solving > > > > >> > > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never said > > > ?B?. > > > > >> > Having > > > > >> > > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis > of > > > the > > > > >> > > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not go > > > > further > > > > >> > failing > > > > >> > > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract category.Once > > > > again, > > > > >> > from > > > > >> > > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > > >> > > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological Theory > > of > > > > >> > Activity" we > > > > >> > > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > > >> fundamentally > > > > >> > new > > > > >> > > approaches to education, based on dialectical, > revolutionary > > > > >> method > > > > >> > of > > > > >> > > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary to > > > begin > > > > >> not > > > > >> > so > > > > >> > > much - to learn to listen to each other... > > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > > >> > > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > activity > > > > >> and > > > > >> > > communication > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. My > > > > point > > > > >> is > > > > >> > that > > > > >> > > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s analysis, > > > and > > > > >> > about its > > > > >> > > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order of > > > the > > > > >> > treatment > > > > >> > > in Capital. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > ablunden@mira.net > > > > >> > > > > >> > > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3. > > htm > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Of course the method of presentation must differ in form > > > > >> > > > from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the > > > > >> > > > material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > > >> > > > development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > > >> > > > after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > > >> > > > adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > > >> > > > the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > > >> > > > in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a > > > > >> > > > mere a priori construction. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Andy > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > > > >> > > > Andy Blunden > > > > >> > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > >> > > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > > >> > > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the details > > of > > > > >> Marx?s > > > > >> > > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > > Grundrisse. > > > > The > > > > >> > two have > > > > >> > > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the order > > of > > > > >> > presentation > > > > >> > > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Mon Nov 6 01:43:20 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 09:43:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication In-Reply-To: References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no>, Message-ID: <1509961400413.22381@iped.uio.no> As a clarification, that sounds clear to me, David, thanks! I wonder how does that sound to others, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: 06 November 2017 10:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication I'll try, Alfredo. I think that Sasha and Haydi are arguing that if we accept language as sign, we risk treating it as a superstructure that has freed itself from its base, that is, the labor of the worker and the peasant, labor which has the power to materially transform a material environment. This is a move they oppose, because there is the danger that a semiotic superstructure will supply itself a "different" base--that is, a base not in the laborer who materially transforms the material environment but rather in the thinker who ideologically transforms an ideal context and thus acts on himself or herself but leaves the worker and the peasant in the lurch. Both Sasha and Haydi consider Leontiev and activity as an important countermeasure to this semanticizing tendency in Vygotsky.This is an argument with a lot of history, and it is one that I reject. I don't simply reject it on behalf of the child, who has to master signs before she or he can master tools (and even when the child can master tools, viz. toy tools, the child must master them as signs--as meanings--and not as a means to transform the social environment. I also reject it on the part of the worker and the peasant, as did Brecht, as did Vygotsky, and...as did Volosinov. For if Haydi is going to read the whole of Volosinov, he must indeed select aspects of Volosinov that he does not like, including Volosinov's very Marxist distinction between the way that the peasant experiences hunger and the way that the worker experiences it: these are indeed different poles of the same experience, and one can go much closer to the 'we pole' than the other. (The reason why the Chinese famine of 1959-1961 was so devestating was precisely that it was experienced very differently in the cities than in the countryside.) The use of "pole" is not mine; it is that of Volosinov (p. 87). Similarly, the use of "water into wine" is not mine; it is that of Vygotsky (Psychology of Art, p. 243). Vygotsky is rejecting the Bukharinist notion of Proletkult, that of the artist as a Christlike figure, multiplying bread and fishes for the masses. For Vygotsky, this isn't much of a miracle at all, it is precisely what peasants and workers quite without art every single day of their working lives. If we want art to permeate life, we cannot do it by reducing art to the level of everyday experience: that is not art permeating life, but only the tired old nineteenth century slogan of life permeating art, repeated as Proletkult, as Soviet socialist realism, and consequently, as Marx would say, as farce. David Kellogg On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could you > or anyone else help me understand? > > I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist > approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, reading > the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of verbal > communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and the > sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). > > Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila > Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs 99% > of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? > > Thanks, > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? > Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > Alfredo, > I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get > engaged in any more discussion. > > If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully > and with care and attention and gratitude. > > You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to > replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support > from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece > which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of > the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not > tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such > condemnation. > > It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual base. > The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over > one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over ones > become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the > previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative of > their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the > whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and > slave owners (old and new). > > When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore > but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. > > Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as > measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just a > 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. Here > verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having > co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , > sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 > pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship > evil! > Voila Voloshinov!! > > Best > Haydi > > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital to > Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, Brecht, > Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education > to privileged access. > > How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking > about privileged access (to immediate experience)? > > Here was Sasha's critique: > > "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience > (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of > object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." > > and that, > > "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal > 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own work, > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look something > inferior." > > Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we > ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do with > exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest > for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words > supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the > latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the issue > of democratic education? > > My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed > out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems > quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than > some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a > quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond of > Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply > externalising something that had been formed internally but rather > thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical > activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) > experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it that > makes me suspicious. > > Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has > been mobilised in the thread: > > "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" > goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and > alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not > primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an > individuation of a social emotion" (D.K to Greg). > > I may be wrong or miss some of the background, but to me, this type of > argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, who > argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on > converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming > magic arbitrary forces. > > I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it > "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that the > most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of the > relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes > resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a > materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. 40). > If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche and > ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary and > objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that > social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. > > I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an > I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it > is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov > in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two poles > constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: > > "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward > expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) > > and > > "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material > (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a fiction. > It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction from > the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). > > But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness > is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's been > posed here a fiction too? > > In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express their > life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their > production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', > 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT > community. > > Alfredo > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > activity and communication > > Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the Philosophy > of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one > end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be > communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is > provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this > experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, > the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er > lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie"). At the other end of the pole > is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is > over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond sullen > and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the > peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians who > reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight of a > satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. > (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both > poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my > English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) > > Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course Brecht > was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, > where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He wonders > why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much > more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by > Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this is > the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I > experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we > experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically > transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an > "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an individuation of a > social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on > Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually > supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help > yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist > Party). > > Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: > > We have hunger, hunger, hunger > Have hunger, hunger hunger > Have hunger, hunger hunger > Have thirst. > > If we don't get something, get, get, get > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > >From the wall. > > If they don't taste good, taste, taste > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > >From the forest. > > If they don't last, last, last > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > >From the grave. > > If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > >From the forest. > > (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks into > virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the song > much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" > with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would be > far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) > > David Kellogg > > (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine > Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love > with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ > > dk > > On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open to > > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > > archived). > > > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think as > > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being careful > > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this > is > > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > > > -greg? > > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just realized > > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma wrote: > > > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > > between > > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > > > James > > > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged > access > > - > > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > > > James > > > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of one > of > > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it happens > > to > > > be > > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism > implied > > by > > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this > capacity > > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these are > > > WEIRD > > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in some > > > > cultural > > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that is > > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm thinking > > of > > > > the > > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > > seeing > > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of practical > > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > > Volosinov's > > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > > different > > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and not?)? > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, but > > > seems > > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the vein > > of > > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > > subject/object, > > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels > is > > > his > > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is communicated > > is > > > a > > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable thought > > > "I'm > > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > > "Grandpa > > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself". I think that > when > > > > Alan > > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > > seeing > > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > > concrete > > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > > address. > > > > So > > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not confounded. > > > > >> > > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole > flock > > > > takes > > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than > "communication". > > > > What > > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > > afraid > > > > of > > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > > geese > > > > are > > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; they > > are > > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > > >> > > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > > pepper > > > > on > > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your > cold. > > > > There > > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream in > a > > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > > airplane > > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated was > > the > > > > >> fact > > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > > >> > > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. > Adolfo > > > > >> Garcia > > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you can > > say > > > > "My > > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that it > > was > > > > >> time > > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was > time > > > for > > > > >> breakfast". Mental processes are one thing, and material > processes > > > are > > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > > reflect > > > > >> this > > > > >> knowledge. > > > > >> > > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > > >> > > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > > >> > > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > > >> > > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett > thinks > > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has > understood > > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are > actually > > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > > >> > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > David > > > > >> > > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel their > > > pain? > > > > >> and > > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson > seems > > to > > > > >> feel > > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they poke > > > their > > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to have > > any > > > > >> words > > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and such a > > > way, > > > > >> you > > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the expression > > > > straight > > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. As > > > Alan > > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed to > a > > > cow > > > > in > > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > > called?) > > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Julian > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on > behalf > > of > > > > >> David > > > > >> > Kellogg" > > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > > brain > > > > >> > differently > > > > >> > than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to MRI > > > scans > > > > >> or > > > > >> > computerized tomography. In fact these can and do distinguish > > > > >> between > > > > >> > verbs > > > > >> > of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky > did > > > > have > > > > >> > access > > > > >> > to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > > words > > > of > > > > >> > another > > > > >> > person. I can say, for example: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with Marxism". > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with Marxism." > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as I > > can > > > > >> read > > > > >> > Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > > the > > > > >> > actions or > > > > >> > the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, for > > > > >> example: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > > >> > > > > > >> > "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > > >> > > > > > >> > When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > > thought a > > > > >> > word > > > > >> > meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > > cold." > > > > >> This > > > > >> > is > > > > >> > originally a line from the revolutionary opera "Shajiabang", > > > > about a > > > > >> > woman > > > > >> > who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > > children > > > > >> are > > > > >> > acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > > officer; > > > > >> they > > > > >> > accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > > all > > > > >> people > > > > >> > who > > > > >> > come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they go, > > > > their > > > > >> > tea is > > > > >> > cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > > >> > > > > > >> > There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the toothache > > of > > > > >> another > > > > >> > person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > > words. > > > > >> > Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > > >> > "immediately", > > > > >> > because thoughts and words have already made the dialectical > > > > >> leap--the > > > > >> > leap > > > > >> > from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some people > > > > >> > > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to be > > > > >> > > the key category. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is activity > > > > >> > > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > > >> > > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > > >> > > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > > >> > > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > > >> > > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > > >> > > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision > of > > > > >> > > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > > >> > > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > > >> > > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > > >> > > this move. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa > does > > > > >> > > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > > >> > > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > >> > > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > > >> > > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > > myself I > > > > >> > have > > > > >> > > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > > sense) > > > > >> is a > > > > >> > > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > >> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > > >> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > > >> > > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > > >> > > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > > > Mike > > > > >> > Cole; > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > oriented > > > > >> > activity > > > > >> > > and communication > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Dear Alfredo, > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You definitely > > > > >> noticed > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and > developed > > > > >> > technologies, > > > > >> > > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > > >> exploiters, > > > > >> > between > > > > >> > > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > > opposite > > > > >> > between > > > > >> > > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > > always > > > > >> been > > > > >> > a > > > > >> > > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > > cosmopolitan > > > > >> class. > > > > >> > > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > > fight > > > > >> and > > > > >> > to kill > > > > >> > > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > > cooperate > > > > >> > with > > > > >> > > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to > receive > > > > >> > dividends from > > > > >> > > their enterprises located on the territory of their > "enemy." > > > > Today > > > > >> > Putin's > > > > >> > > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > > their > > > > >> > capitals to > > > > >> > > this West, buy property there, send their children to study > > > > there > > > > >> > and go > > > > >> > > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > > Poroshenko > > > > >> - > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > president of the country that was subje > > > > >> > > > cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > > chocolate > > > > >> > > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > > >> > > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > > States, > > > > the > > > > >> > policy > > > > >> > > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > > each > > > > >> other > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > working people of different ethnic groups and confessions, > > on > > > > >> their > > > > >> > > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > > >> creatures. > > > > >> > > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity incited > > by > > > > the > > > > >> > ruling > > > > >> > > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > > working > > > > >> > people > > > > >> > > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > > public > > > > >> > > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > > constructed > > > > >> > allegedly on > > > > >> > > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred years > > > ago, > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, the > > > same > > > > >> task > > > > >> > is > > > > >> > > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > > so-called > > > > >> > "cultural" > > > > >> > > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > > biological > > > > >> > differences > > > > >> > > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > > >> > > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, but > > > also > > > > >> to > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > "psychology of culture". > > > > >> > > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only in > > > words > > > > >> but > > > > >> > also > > > > >> > > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is > not > > > the > > > > >> > ability of > > > > >> > > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of > words, > > > but > > > > >> to > > > > >> > be > > > > >> > > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects > > of > > > > >> labor. > > > > >> > > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > > believed > > > > >> > that the > > > > >> > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is > > > > just a > > > > >> > verbal > > > > >> > > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver to > > > us, > > > > >> then > > > > >> > any > > > > >> > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > > seem > > > > to > > > > >> us > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant > doing > > > his > > > > >> own > > > > >> > work, > > > > >> > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will > > > look > > > > >> > something > > > > >> > > inferior. > > > > >> > > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of Vygotsky's > > > > >> theory, > > > > >> > open > > > > >> > > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a > > > > >> > transition > > > > >> > > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that > is > > > > >> capable > > > > >> > of > > > > >> > > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This > > > > >> implies > > > > >> > that > > > > >> > > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > > different > > > > >> > way in > > > > >> > > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This > qualitative > > > > >> > difference is > > > > >> > > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of > reality. > > > > >> > Therefore, > > > > >> > > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in the > > > true > > > > >> > sense of > > > > >> > > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > > inseparable > > > > >> part > > > > >> > of the > > > > >> > > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > > the > > > > >> domain > > > > >> > of > > > > >> > > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an empty > > > > sound. > > > > >> A > > > > >> > word > > > > >> > > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of speech. > > One > > > > >> > cannot say > > > > >> > > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of the > > > word > > > > >> > taken > > > > >> > > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It is > > > both > > > > at > > > > >> > one and > > > > >> > > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > > >> > > > nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be that > > of > > > > >> > semantic > > > > >> > > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > > meaningful > > > > >> > aspect of > > > > >> > > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will > produce > > > > >> answers > > > > >> > to > > > > >> > > our questions concerning the relationship between thinking > > and > > > > >> speech > > > > >> > > because this relationship is already contained in the unit > > of > > > > >> > analysis. In > > > > >> > > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > > unit, > > > > we > > > > >> > will > > > > >> > > come to understand a great deal that is of direct relevance > > to > > > > the > > > > >> > problem > > > > >> > > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the nature > > of > > > > >> verbal > > > > >> > > thinking." > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not > the > > > > >> > slightest > > > > >> > > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > > attempt > > > > to > > > > >> > combine > > > > >> > > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with the > > > > school > > > > >> > textbook > > > > >> > > of formal logic. > > > > >> > > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > > detailed > > > > >> > > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this > analysis > > > in > > > > >> the > > > > >> > very > > > > >> > > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > > >> assertion > > > > >> > that > > > > >> > > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a maximally > > > > >> aphoristic > > > > >> > > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > > >> > materialists, the > > > > >> > > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is the > > > > >> > instrument of > > > > >> > > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > > generalization > > > > >> is > > > > >> > not a > > > > >> > > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > > >> > generalizing the > > > > >> > > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means of > > > > >> > analyzing all > > > > >> > > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > > optics > > > > of > > > > >> > > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > > >> ideality.) > > > > >> > > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results > of > > > > >> Luria's > > > > >> > trip > > > > >> > > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > > >> illiterate > > > > >> > > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > > >> > > > r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe and > > > > melon > > > > >> are > > > > >> > > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > > formal > > > > >> > logical > > > > >> > > operations with words denoting these things, is declared a > > > > >> primitive > > > > >> > > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap > who > > > > knows > > > > >> > how to > > > > >> > > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > > the > > > > >> melon > > > > >> > only > > > > >> > > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is declared > > > the > > > > >> > bearer of > > > > >> > > scientific consciousness. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > > come > > > > to > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > value of instruments of labor, not only for the > distribution > > > of > > > > >> > material > > > > >> > > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > > wealth, > > > > for > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > distribution of the ability to think, for the distribution > > of > > > > >> > culture. Only > > > > >> > > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > > culture > > > as > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > > accumulated > > > > >> by > > > > >> > > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of such > > > based > > > > >> on > > > > >> > idea of > > > > >> > > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > > able > > > to > > > > >> get > > > > >> > out of > > > > >> > > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > > arbitrariness. > > > > >> > > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > > set > > > > the > > > > >> > task of > > > > >> > > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > > considered > > > > that > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > first real step in this direction was made by his friend > and > > > > >> student > > > > >> > AN > > > > >> > > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > > >> > > > Sasha > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> > >; > > > > >> > > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > > >; > > > > >> > Martin > > > > >> > > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? < > > > > >> > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > > >> > > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > > >> > > > ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > > >> activity > > > > >> > and > > > > >> > > communication > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > > >> > > Dear Sasha, all, > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > > issues > > > > at > > > > >> > home > > > > >> > > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have limited > > > > >> > participation > > > > >> > > anywhere else than home life. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like a > > > > >> concrete > > > > >> > aspect > > > > >> > > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning of > > > this > > > > >> > > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical (real) > > > > >> relevance > > > > >> > to us > > > > >> > > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is this > > > > >> 'real,' > > > > >> > and is > > > > >> > > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > > addressing > > > > >> any > > > > >> > and > > > > >> > > everyone) > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Alfredo > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > > >> > > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > > >> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Alfredo > > > > Jornet > > > > >> > Gil; > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > >> > > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > oriented > > > > >> > activity > > > > >> > > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going > to > > > > >> discuss > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > > most > > > > >> > mature work. > > > > >> > > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > > >> "Dialectics > > > > >> > of the > > > > >> > > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am aware > > > that > > > > >> > there is a > > > > >> > > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > > >> adequately > > > > >> > > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > > Marx's > > > > >> > theory was > > > > >> > > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > > better > > > > to > > > > >> > study > > > > >> > > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of ?Das > > > > >> Kapital?. > > > > >> > Along > > > > >> > > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that the > > > > >> > discussion of > > > > >> > > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > > themes. > > > > I > > > > >> > think > > > > >> > > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > > "steps", > > > > >> but > > > > >> > > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that after > > > that > > > > >> try > > > > >> > to rise > > > > >> > > from it to the seco > > > > >> > > > nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young age, > > it > > > > >> seems > > > > >> > to me > > > > >> > > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > > discussion > > > > of > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > > preparation > > > to > > > > >> > thinking, > > > > >> > > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method can > > not > > > > be > > > > >> > studied > > > > >> > > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > > Perhaps > > > > >> this > > > > >> > seems > > > > >> > > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are not > > > > >> familiar > > > > >> > with > > > > >> > > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > > >> discussing > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > > continue > > > > >> to > > > > >> > carry > > > > >> > > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of the > > > term > > > > >> > activity. > > > > >> > > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for translators > > > from > > > > >> > Russian (or > > > > >> > > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > > very > > > > >> > informative. > > > > >> > > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden completely > > > > >> exhausted > > > > >> > this > > > > >> > > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > > discuss > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > question: what is the justificati > > > > >> > > > on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > > Where, > > > > >> in > > > > >> > any > > > > >> > > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of > activity, > > > not > > > > >> > just uses > > > > >> > > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which it > > is > > > > >> used > > > > >> > > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > > >> activities) of > > > > >> > > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > > >> functions?, > > > > >> > ?speech > > > > >> > > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > > >> > personality?- all > > > > >> > > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, with > > > > Spinoza > > > > >> > and > > > > >> > > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > > >> discussing > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > > Vygotsky > > > > >> > and > > > > >> > > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > > necessary > > > > to > > > > >> > try to > > > > >> > > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, proceeding > > > from > > > > >> THE > > > > >> > REAL > > > > >> > > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is > impossible > > > to > > > > >> > understand > > > > >> > > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > > such > > > > >> > theoretical > > > > >> > > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > > >> introduces a > > > > >> > > category of object-oriented a > > > > >> > > > ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little use > > > for > > > > >> > solving > > > > >> > > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never said > > > ?B?. > > > > >> > Having > > > > >> > > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis > of > > > the > > > > >> > > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not go > > > > further > > > > >> > failing > > > > >> > > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract category.Once > > > > again, > > > > >> > from > > > > >> > > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > > >> > > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological Theory > > of > > > > >> > Activity" we > > > > >> > > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > > >> fundamentally > > > > >> > new > > > > >> > > approaches to education, based on dialectical, > revolutionary > > > > >> method > > > > >> > of > > > > >> > > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary to > > > begin > > > > >> not > > > > >> > so > > > > >> > > much - to learn to listen to each other... > > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > > >> > > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > activity > > > > >> and > > > > >> > > communication > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. My > > > > point > > > > >> is > > > > >> > that > > > > >> > > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s analysis, > > > and > > > > >> > about its > > > > >> > > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order of > > > the > > > > >> > treatment > > > > >> > > in Capital. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > ablunden@mira.net > > > > >> > > > > >> > > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3. > > htm > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Of course the method of presentation must differ in form > > > > >> > > > from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the > > > > >> > > > material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > > >> > > > development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > > >> > > > after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > > >> > > > adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > > >> > > > the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > > >> > > > in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a > > > > >> > > > mere a priori construction. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Andy > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > > > >> > > > Andy Blunden > > > > >> > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > >> > > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > > >> > > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the details > > of > > > > >> Marx?s > > > > >> > > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > > Grundrisse. > > > > The > > > > >> > two have > > > > >> > > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the order > > of > > > > >> > presentation > > > > >> > > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Mon Nov 6 02:19:07 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 10:19:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Recently posted academic job vacancies at Educaloxy In-Reply-To: <423eb8894af0c1920063d00532bfa80a@www.educaloxy.com> References: <423eb8894af0c1920063d00532bfa80a@www.educaloxy.com> Message-ID: From: Sven Lindholm [mailto:s.lindholm@educaloxy.com] Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 9:26 PM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: Recently posted academic job vacancies at Educaloxy [educaloxy] Dear Colleague, We are pleased to present you our specialised newsletter including your academic job vacancies in schools of education, arts and languages at Educaloxy.com worldwide. 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From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Mon Nov 6 02:08:18 2017 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=AAHaydi_Zulfei=E2=80=AC_=E2=80=AA?=) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 10:08:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication In-Reply-To: <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <1094514357.5074126.1509962898286@mail.yahoo.com> Alfredo, In the year you notice in the attached , I began reading Volosinov. Those are , I hope sincerely , Volosinov's ideas. I hope none of the attached is mine or comments or additions attributed to Volosinov. This is my worry! Have you read and understood the attached as quotes from Volosinov? If that's so , what should I be accountable for? The Marx discussion was curtailed and I didn't mean to go back to Marx. But even if I've gone back to Marx or targeted not to sever Volosinov from Marx , would that be considered a faulty thing. The question is if you are for or against it and for what reasons in which case , as I referred to , I will be pleased and indebted. And what's again that I should clarify? I accepted Martin's general argument and the piece everywhere confirms that. I think Ilyenko also somehow confirms that. Thoughts are firstly embodied in words. But is this a direct transformation? Is it not the case that some material procedures led to the creation of the word? And the long way this word traverses to become a concept? And the mutual affectation Andy mentioned and I repeated a couple of times? When we reach concepts , we don't credit them to oblivion or to some a storehouse. Is not the concept the proper reflection of material procedures in theory? Then again we take the concept to throw light in our new material procedures? Or we immerse in verbal or pure thinking for ever?? Crude reality of wealth distribution is not connected to Volosinov's work? The 'Das Capital' is the story of exploitation and alienation thereof. Why should a great figure crave to create another 'Das Capital' in Psychology? Must any great figure's research be pure political economy? What I get from Volosinov's framework is : economic infrastructure , social relations , reflection of these social relations onto mind ideally leading firstly to the creation of signs on the edge , superstructure , ideology , consciousness , social conscious individual as agent reworking a whole new trend. I repeat again that the whole attached is Volosinov's hopefully. As I understand it , Bibler is a better figure for departing from culture moving in a reverse track. Best Haydi From: Alfredo Jornet Gil To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ; ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? Sent: Monday, 6 November 2017, 11:40:41 Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could you or anyone else help me understand? I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, reading the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of verbal communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and the sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs 99% of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? Thanks, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication Alfredo, I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get engaged in any more discussion. If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully and with care and attention and gratitude. You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such condemnation. It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual base. The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over ones become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative of their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and slave owners (old and new). When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just a 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. Here verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship evil! Voila Voloshinov!! Best Haydi ? ? ? From: Alfredo Jornet Gil To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital to Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, Brecht, Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education to privileged access. How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking about privileged access (to immediate experience)? Here was Sasha's critique: "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." and that, "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own work, but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look something inferior." Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do with exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the issue of democratic education? My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond of Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply externalising something that had? been formed internally but rather thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it that makes me suspicious. Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has been mobilised in the thread: "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an individuation of a social emotion"? (D.K to Greg). I may be wrong or miss some of the background,? but to me, this type of argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, who argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming magic arbitrary forces. I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that the most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of the relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. 40). If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche and ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary and objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two poles constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) and "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a fiction. It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction from the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's been posed here a fiction too? In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express their life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT community. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:? Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented activity and communication Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the Philosophy of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie").? At the other end of the pole is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond sullen and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians who reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight of a satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course Brecht was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He wonders why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this is the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an individuation of a social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist Party). Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: We have hunger, hunger, hunger Have hunger, hunger hunger Have hunger, hunger hunger Have thirst. If we don't get something, get, get, get We'll eat flies, flies, flies We'll eat flies, flies, flies >From the wall. If they don't taste good, taste, taste We'll eat snails, snails, snails, We'll eat snails, snails, snails, >From the forest. If they don't last, last, last We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses >From the grave. If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes >From the forest. (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks into virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the song much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would be far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) David Kellogg (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ dk On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open to > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > archived). > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think as > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being careful > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this is > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > -greg? > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just realized > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma wrote: > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > between > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > James > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged access > - > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > James > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of one of > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it happens > to > > be > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism implied > by > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this capacity > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these are > > WEIRD > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in some > > > cultural > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that is > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm thinking > of > > > the > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > seeing > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of practical > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > Volosinov's > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > different > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and not?)? > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, but > > seems > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the vein > of > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > subject/object, > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels is > > his > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is communicated > is > > a > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable thought > > "I'm > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > "Grandpa > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself".? I think that when > > > Alan > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > seeing > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > concrete > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > address. > > > So > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not confounded. > > > >> > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole flock > > > takes > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than "communication". > > > What > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > afraid > > > of > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > geese > > > are > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; they > are > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > >> > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > pepper > > > on > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your cold. > > > There > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream in a > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > airplane > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated was > the > > > >> fact > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > >> > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. Adolfo > > > >> Garcia > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you can > say > > > "My > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that it > was > > > >> time > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was time > > for > > > >> breakfast".? Mental processes are one thing, and material processes > > are > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > reflect > > > >> this > > > >> knowledge. > > > >> > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > >> > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > >> > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > >> > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett thinks > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has understood > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are actually > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > >> > > > >> David Kellogg > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > David > > > >> > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel their > > pain? > > > >> and > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson seems > to > > > >> feel > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they poke > > their > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to have > any > > > >> words > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and such a > > way, > > > >> you > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the expression > > > straight > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > >> > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. As > > Alan > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed to a > > cow > > > in > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > called?) > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > >> > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > >> > > > > >> > Julian > > > >> > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf > of > > > >> David > > > >> > Kellogg" > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >?? ? All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > brain > > > >> > differently > > > >> >?? than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to MRI > > scans > > > >> or > > > >> >?? computerized tomography. In fact these can and do distinguish > > > >> between > > > >> > verbs > > > >> >?? of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky did > > > have > > > >> > access > > > >> >?? to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > >> > > > > >> >?? In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > words > > of > > > >> > another > > > >> >?? person. I can say, for example: > > > >> > > > > >> >?? Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with Marxism". > > > >> > > > > >> >?? I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > >> > > > > >> >?? Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with Marxism." > > > >> > > > > >> >?? I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as I > can > > > >> read > > > >> >?? Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > >> > > > > >> >?? However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > the > > > >> > actions or > > > >> >?? the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, for > > > >> example: > > > >> > > > > >> >?? "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > >> > > > > >> >?? "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > >> > > > > >> >?? When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > thought a > > > >> > word > > > >> >?? meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > >> > > > > >> >?? In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > cold." > > > >> This > > > >> > is > > > >> >?? originally a line from the revolutionary opera "Shajiabang", > > > about a > > > >> > woman > > > >> >?? who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > children > > > >> are > > > >> >?? acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > officer; > > > >> they > > > >> >?? accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > all > > > >> people > > > >> > who > > > >> >?? come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they go, > > > their > > > >> > tea is > > > >> >?? cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > >> > > > > >> >?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > >> > > > > >> >?? There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the toothache > of > > > >> another > > > >> >?? person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > words. > > > >> >?? Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > >> > "immediately", > > > >> >?? because thoughts and words have already made the dialectical > > > >> leap--the > > > >> > leap > > > >> >?? from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > >> > > > > >> >?? David Kellogg > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >?? other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > >> > > > > >> >?? On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >?? > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some people > > > >> >?? > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to be > > > >> >?? > the key category. > > > >> >?? > > > > >> >?? > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is activity > > > >> >?? > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > >> >?? > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > >> >?? > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > >> >?? > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > >> >?? > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > >> >?? > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision of > > > >> >?? > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > >> >?? > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > >> >?? > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > >> >?? > this move. > > > >> >?? > > > > >> >?? > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa does > > > >> >?? > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > >> >?? > > > > >> >?? > Andy > > > >> >?? > > > > >> >?? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > >> >?? > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > >> >?? > > > > >> >?? > ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > > > >> >?? > Andy Blunden > > > >> >?? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> >?? > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > >> >?? > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > myself I > > > >> > have > > > >> >?? > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > sense) > > > >> is a > > > >> >?? > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > -----Original Message----- > > > >> >?? > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > >> >?? > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > >> >?? > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > >> >?? > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > > Mike > > > >> > Cole; > > > >> >?? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > >> >?? > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > >> > activity > > > >> >?? > and communication > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > Dear Alfredo, > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You definitely > > > >> noticed > > > >> > the > > > >> >?? > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and developed > > > >> > technologies, > > > >> >?? > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > >> exploiters, > > > >> > between > > > >> >?? > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > opposite > > > >> > between > > > >> >?? > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > always > > > >> been > > > >> > a > > > >> >?? > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > cosmopolitan > > > >> class. > > > >> >?? > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > fight > > > >> and > > > >> > to kill > > > >> >?? > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > cooperate > > > >> > with > > > >> >?? > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to receive > > > >> > dividends from > > > >> >?? > their enterprises located on the territory of their "enemy." > > > Today > > > >> > Putin's > > > >> >?? > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > their > > > >> > capitals to > > > >> >?? > this West, buy property there, send their children to study > > > there > > > >> > and go > > > >> >?? > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > Poroshenko > > > >> - > > > >> > the > > > >> >?? > president of the country that was subje > > > >> >?? > >? cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > chocolate > > > >> >?? > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > >> >?? > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > States, > > > the > > > >> > policy > > > >> >?? > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > each > > > >> other > > > >> > the > > > >> >?? > working people of different ethnic groups and confessions, > on > > > >> their > > > >> >?? > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > >> creatures. > > > >> >?? > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity incited > by > > > the > > > >> > ruling > > > >> >?? > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > working > > > >> > people > > > >> >?? > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > public > > > >> >?? > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > constructed > > > >> > allegedly on > > > >> >?? > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred years > > ago, > > > >> the > > > >> >?? > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, the > > same > > > >> task > > > >> > is > > > >> >?? > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > so-called > > > >> > "cultural" > > > >> >?? > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > biological > > > >> > differences > > > >> >?? > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > >> >?? > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, but > > also > > > >> to > > > >> > the > > > >> >?? > "psychology of culture". > > > >> >?? > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only in > > words > > > >> but > > > >> > also > > > >> >?? > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is not > > the > > > >> > ability of > > > >> >?? > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of words, > > but > > > >> to > > > >> > be > > > >> >?? > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects > of > > > >> labor. > > > >> >?? > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > believed > > > >> > that the > > > >> >?? > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is > > > just a > > > >> > verbal > > > >> >?? > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver to > > us, > > > >> then > > > >> > any > > > >> >?? > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > seem > > > to > > > >> us > > > >> > the > > > >> >?? > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing > > his > > > >> own > > > >> > work, > > > >> >?? > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will > > look > > > >> > something > > > >> >?? > inferior. > > > >> >?? > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of Vygotsky's > > > >> theory, > > > >> > open > > > >> >?? > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a > > > >> > transition > > > >> >?? > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that is > > > >> capable > > > >> > of > > > >> >?? > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This > > > >> implies > > > >> > that > > > >> >?? > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > different > > > >> > way in > > > >> >?? > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This qualitative > > > >> > difference is > > > >> >?? > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of reality. > > > >> > Therefore, > > > >> >?? > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in the > > true > > > >> > sense of > > > >> >?? > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > inseparable > > > >> part > > > >> > of the > > > >> >?? > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > the > > > >> domain > > > >> > of > > > >> >?? > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an empty > > > sound. > > > >> A > > > >> > word > > > >> >?? > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of speech. > One > > > >> > cannot say > > > >> >?? > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of the > > word > > > >> > taken > > > >> >?? > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It is > > both > > > at > > > >> > one and > > > >> >?? > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > >> >?? > >? nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be that > of > > > >> > semantic > > > >> >?? > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > meaningful > > > >> > aspect of > > > >> >?? > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will produce > > > >> answers > > > >> > to > > > >> >?? > our questions concerning the relationship between thinking > and > > > >> speech > > > >> >?? > because this relationship is already contained in the unit > of > > > >> > analysis. In > > > >> >?? > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > unit, > > > we > > > >> > will > > > >> >?? > come to understand a great deal that is of direct relevance > to > > > the > > > >> > problem > > > >> >?? > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the nature > of > > > >> verbal > > > >> >?? > thinking." > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not the > > > >> > slightest > > > >> >?? > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > attempt > > > to > > > >> > combine > > > >> >?? > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with the > > > school > > > >> > textbook > > > >> >?? > of formal logic. > > > >> >?? > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > detailed > > > >> >?? > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this analysis > > in > > > >> the > > > >> > very > > > >> >?? > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > >> assertion > > > >> > that > > > >> >?? > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a maximally > > > >> aphoristic > > > >> >?? > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > >> > materialists, the > > > >> >?? > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is the > > > >> > instrument of > > > >> >?? > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > generalization > > > >> is > > > >> > not a > > > >> >?? > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > >> > generalizing the > > > >> >?? > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means of > > > >> > analyzing all > > > >> >?? > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > optics > > > of > > > >> >?? > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > >> ideality.) > > > >> >?? > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results of > > > >> Luria's > > > >> > trip > > > >> >?? > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > >> illiterate > > > >> >?? > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > >> >?? > >? r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe and > > > melon > > > >> are > > > >> >?? > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > formal > > > >> > logical > > > >> >?? > operations with words denoting these things, is declared a > > > >> primitive > > > >> >?? > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap who > > > knows > > > >> > how to > > > >> >?? > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > the > > > >> melon > > > >> > only > > > >> >?? > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is declared > > the > > > >> > bearer of > > > >> >?? > scientific consciousness. > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > come > > > to > > > >> the > > > >> >?? > value of instruments of labor, not only for the distribution > > of > > > >> > material > > > >> >?? > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > wealth, > > > for > > > >> > the > > > >> >?? > distribution of the ability to think, for the distribution > of > > > >> > culture. Only > > > >> >?? > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > culture > > as > > > >> the > > > >> >?? > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > accumulated > > > >> by > > > >> >?? > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of such > > based > > > >> on > > > >> > idea of > > > >> >?? > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > able > > to > > > >> get > > > >> > out of > > > >> >?? > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > arbitrariness. > > > >> >?? > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > set > > > the > > > >> > task of > > > >> >?? > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > considered > > > that > > > >> > the > > > >> >?? > first real step in this direction was made by his friend and > > > >> student > > > >> > AN > > > >> >?? > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > >> >?? > > Sasha > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > >?? ? ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > >> >?? > >? ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >> > >; > > > >> >?? > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > >; > > > >> > Martin > > > >> >?? > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? < > > > >> >?? > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > >> >?? > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > >> >?? > >? ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > >> >?? > >? ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > >> activity > > > >> > and > > > >> >?? > communication > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > >> >?? > Dear Sasha, all, > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > issues > > > at > > > >> > home > > > >> >?? > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have limited > > > >> > participation > > > >> >?? > anywhere else than home life. > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like a > > > >> concrete > > > >> > aspect > > > >> >?? > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning of > > this > > > >> >?? > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical (real) > > > >> relevance > > > >> > to us > > > >> >?? > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is this > > > >> 'real,' > > > >> > and is > > > >> >?? > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > addressing > > > >> any > > > >> > and > > > >> >?? > everyone) > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > Alfredo > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > >> >?? > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > >> >?? > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Alfredo > > > Jornet > > > >> > Gil; > > > >> >?? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > >> >?? > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > >> > activity > > > >> >?? > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going to > > > >> discuss > > > >> > the > > > >> >?? > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > most > > > >> > mature work. > > > >> >?? > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > >> "Dialectics > > > >> > of the > > > >> >?? > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am aware > > that > > > >> > there is a > > > >> >?? > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > >> adequately > > > >> >?? > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > Marx's > > > >> > theory was > > > >> >?? > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > better > > > to > > > >> > study > > > >> >?? > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of ?Das > > > >> Kapital?. > > > >> > Along > > > >> >?? > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that the > > > >> > discussion of > > > >> >?? > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > themes. > > > I > > > >> > think > > > >> >?? > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > "steps", > > > >> but > > > >> >?? > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that after > > that > > > >> try > > > >> > to rise > > > >> >?? > from it to the seco > > > >> >?? > >? nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young age, > it > > > >> seems > > > >> > to me > > > >> >?? > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > discussion > > > of > > > >> the > > > >> >?? > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > preparation > > to > > > >> > thinking, > > > >> >?? > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method can > not > > > be > > > >> > studied > > > >> >?? > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > Perhaps > > > >> this > > > >> > seems > > > >> >?? > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are not > > > >> familiar > > > >> > with > > > >> >?? > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > >> discussing > > > >> > the > > > >> >?? > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > continue > > > >> to > > > >> > carry > > > >> >?? > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of the > > term > > > >> > activity. > > > >> >?? > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for translators > > from > > > >> > Russian (or > > > >> >?? > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > very > > > >> > informative. > > > >> >?? > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden completely > > > >> exhausted > > > >> > this > > > >> >?? > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > discuss > > > >> the > > > >> >?? > question: what is the justificati > > > >> >?? > >? on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > Where, > > > >> in > > > >> > any > > > >> >?? > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of activity, > > not > > > >> > just uses > > > >> >?? > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which it > is > > > >> used > > > >> >?? > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > >> activities) of > > > >> >?? > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > >> functions?, > > > >> > ?speech > > > >> >?? > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > >> > personality?- all > > > >> >?? > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, with > > > Spinoza > > > >> > and > > > >> >?? > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > >> discussing > > > >> > the > > > >> >?? > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > Vygotsky > > > >> > and > > > >> >?? > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > necessary > > > to > > > >> > try to > > > >> >?? > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, proceeding > > from > > > >> THE > > > >> > REAL > > > >> >?? > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is impossible > > to > > > >> > understand > > > >> >?? > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > such > > > >> > theoretical > > > >> >?? > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > >> introduces a > > > >> >?? > category of object-oriented a > > > >> >?? > >? ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little use > > for > > > >> > solving > > > >> >?? > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never said > > ?B?. > > > >> > Having > > > >> >?? > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis of > > the > > > >> >?? > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not go > > > further > > > >> > failing > > > >> >?? > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract category.Once > > > again, > > > >> > from > > > >> >?? > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > >> >?? > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological Theory > of > > > >> > Activity" we > > > >> >?? > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > >> fundamentally > > > >> > new > > > >> >?? > approaches to education, based on dialectical, revolutionary > > > >> method > > > >> > of > > > >> >?? > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary to > > begin > > > >> not > > > >> > so > > > >> >?? > much - to learn to listen to each other... > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > >> >?? > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > >> >?? > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > >> >?? > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > activity > > > >> and > > > >> >?? > communication > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. My > > > point > > > >> is > > > >> > that > > > >> >?? > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s analysis, > > and > > > >> > about its > > > >> >?? > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order of > > the > > > >> > treatment > > > >> >?? > in Capital. > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > Martin > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > ablunden@mira.net > > > >> > > > >> >?? > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3. > htm > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > >? Of course the method of presentation must differ in form > > > >> >?? > >? from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the > > > >> >?? > >? material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > >> >?? > >? development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > >> >?? > >? after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > >> >?? > >? adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > >> >?? > >? the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > >> >?? > >? in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a > > > >> >?? > >? mere a priori construction. > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > Andy > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > > > >> >?? > > Andy Blunden > > > >> >?? > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> >?? > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > >> >?? > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the details > of > > > >> Marx?s > > > >> >?? > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > Grundrisse. > > > The > > > >> > two have > > > >> >?? > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the order > of > > > >> > presentation > > > >> >?? > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > Martin > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > > >> >?? > > > > >> >?? > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Mon Nov 6 02:32:01 2017 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=AAHaydi_Zulfei=E2=80=AC_=E2=80=AA?=) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 10:32:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication In-Reply-To: <1509961400413.22381@iped.uio.no> References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> <1509961400413.22381@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <654691790.5155626.1509964321562@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks David!Best wishesHaydi From: Alfredo Jornet Gil To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Monday, 6 November 2017, 13:15:47 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication As a clarification, that sounds clear to me, David, thanks! I wonder how does that sound to others, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: 06 November 2017 10:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication I'll try, Alfredo. I think that Sasha and Haydi are arguing that if we accept language as sign, we risk treating it as a superstructure that has freed itself from its base, that is, the labor of the worker and the peasant, labor which has the power to materially transform a material environment. This is a move they oppose, because there is the danger that a semiotic superstructure will supply itself a "different" base--that is, a base not in the laborer who materially transforms the material environment but rather in the thinker who ideologically transforms an ideal context and thus acts on himself or herself but leaves the worker and the peasant in the lurch. Both Sasha and Haydi consider Leontiev and activity as an important countermeasure to this semanticizing tendency in Vygotsky.This is an argument with a lot of history, and it is one that I reject. I don't simply reject it on behalf of the child, who has to master signs before she or he can master tools (and even when the child can master tools, viz. toy tools, the child must master them as signs--as meanings--and not as a means to transform the social environment.? I also reject it on the part of the worker and the peasant, as did Brecht, as did Vygotsky, and...as did Volosinov. For if Haydi is going to read the whole of Volosinov, he must indeed select aspects of Volosinov that he does not like, including Volosinov's very Marxist distinction between the way that the peasant experiences hunger and the way that the worker experiences it: these are indeed different poles of the same experience, and one can go much closer to the 'we pole' than the other. (The reason why the Chinese famine of 1959-1961 was so devestating was precisely that it was experienced very differently in the cities than in the countryside.) The use of "pole" is not mine; it is that of Volosinov (p. 87). Similarly, the use of "water into wine" is not mine; it is that of Vygotsky (Psychology of Art, p. 243). Vygotsky is rejecting the Bukharinist notion of Proletkult, that of the artist as a Christlike figure, multiplying bread and fishes for the masses. For Vygotsky, this isn't much of a miracle at all, it is precisely what peasants and workers quite without art every single day of their working lives. If we want art to permeate life, we cannot do it by reducing art to the level of everyday experience: that is not art permeating life, but only the tired old nineteenth century slogan of life permeating art, repeated as Proletkult, as Soviet socialist realism, and consequently, as Marx would say, as farce. David Kellogg On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could you > or anyone else help me understand? > > I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist > approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, reading > the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of verbal > communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and the > sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). > > Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila > Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs 99% > of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? > > Thanks, > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? > Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > Alfredo, > I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get > engaged in any more discussion. > > If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully > and with care and attention and gratitude. > > You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to > replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support > from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece > which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of > the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not > tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such > condemnation. > > It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual base. > The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over > one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over ones > become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the > previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative of > their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the > whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and > slave owners (old and new). > > When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore > but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. > > Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as > measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just a > 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. Here > verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having > co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , > sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 > pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship > evil! > Voila Voloshinov!! > > Best > Haydi > > >? ? ? From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >? To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >? Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 >? Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital to > Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, Brecht, > Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education > to privileged access. > > How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking > about privileged access (to immediate experience)? > > Here was Sasha's critique: > > "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience > (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of > object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." > > and that, > > "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal > 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own work, > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look something > inferior." > > Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we > ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do with > exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest > for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words > supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the > latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the issue > of democratic education? > > My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed > out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems > quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than > some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a > quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond of > Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply > externalising something that had? been formed internally but rather > thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical > activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) > experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it that > makes me suspicious. > > Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has > been mobilised in the thread: > > "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" > goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and > alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not > primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an > individuation of a social emotion"? (D.K to Greg). > > I may be wrong or miss some of the background,? but to me, this type of > argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, who > argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on > converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming > magic arbitrary forces. > > I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it > "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that the > most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of the > relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes > resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a > materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. 40). > If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche and > ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary and > objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that > social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. > > I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an > I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it > is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov > in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two poles > constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: > > "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward > expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) > > and > > "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material > (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a fiction. > It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction from > the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). > > But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness > is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's been > posed here a fiction too? > > In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express their > life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their > production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', > 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT > community. > > Alfredo > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:? Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > activity and communication > > Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the Philosophy > of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one > end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be > communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is > provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this > experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, > the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er > lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie").? At the other end of the pole > is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is > over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond sullen > and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the > peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians who > reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight of a > satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. > (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both > poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my > English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) > > Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course Brecht > was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, > where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He wonders > why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much > more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by > Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this is > the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I > experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we > experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically > transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an > "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an individuation of a > social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on > Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually > supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help > yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist > Party). > > Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: > > We have hunger, hunger, hunger > Have hunger, hunger hunger > Have hunger, hunger hunger > Have thirst. > > If we don't get something, get, get, get > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > >From the wall. > > If they don't taste good, taste, taste > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > >From the forest. > > If they don't last, last, last > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > >From the grave. > > If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > >From the forest. > > (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks into > virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the song > much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" > with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would be > far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) > > David Kellogg > > (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine > Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love > with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ > > dk > > On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open to > > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > > archived). > > > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think as > > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being careful > > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this > is > > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > > > -greg? > > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just realized > > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma wrote: > > > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > > between > > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > > > James > > > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged > access > > - > > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > > > James > > > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of one > of > > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it happens > > to > > > be > > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism > implied > > by > > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this > capacity > > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these are > > > WEIRD > > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in some > > > > cultural > > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that is > > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm thinking > > of > > > > the > > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > > seeing > > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of practical > > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > > Volosinov's > > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > > different > > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and not?)? > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, but > > > seems > > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the vein > > of > > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > > subject/object, > > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels > is > > > his > > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is communicated > > is > > > a > > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable thought > > > "I'm > > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > > "Grandpa > > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself".? I think that > when > > > > Alan > > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > > seeing > > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > > concrete > > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > > address. > > > > So > > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not confounded. > > > > >> > > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole > flock > > > > takes > > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than > "communication". > > > > What > > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > > afraid > > > > of > > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > > geese > > > > are > > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; they > > are > > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > > >> > > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > > pepper > > > > on > > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your > cold. > > > > There > > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream in > a > > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > > airplane > > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated was > > the > > > > >> fact > > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > > >> > > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. > Adolfo > > > > >> Garcia > > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you can > > say > > > > "My > > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that it > > was > > > > >> time > > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was > time > > > for > > > > >> breakfast".? Mental processes are one thing, and material > processes > > > are > > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > > reflect > > > > >> this > > > > >> knowledge. > > > > >> > > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > > >> > > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > > >> > > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > > >> > > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett > thinks > > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has > understood > > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are > actually > > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > > >> > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > David > > > > >> > > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel their > > > pain? > > > > >> and > > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson > seems > > to > > > > >> feel > > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they poke > > > their > > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to have > > any > > > > >> words > > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and such a > > > way, > > > > >> you > > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the expression > > > > straight > > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. As > > > Alan > > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed to > a > > > cow > > > > in > > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > > called?) > > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Julian > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on > behalf > > of > > > > >> David > > > > >> > Kellogg" > > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? ? All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > > brain > > > > >> > differently > > > > >> >? ? than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to MRI > > > scans > > > > >> or > > > > >> >? ? computerized tomography. In fact these can and do distinguish > > > > >> between > > > > >> > verbs > > > > >> >? ? of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky > did > > > > have > > > > >> > access > > > > >> >? ? to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > > words > > > of > > > > >> > another > > > > >> >? ? person. I can say, for example: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with Marxism". > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with Marxism." > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as I > > can > > > > >> read > > > > >> >? ? Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > > the > > > > >> > actions or > > > > >> >? ? the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, for > > > > >> example: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > > thought a > > > > >> > word > > > > >> >? ? meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > > cold." > > > > >> This > > > > >> > is > > > > >> >? ? originally a line from the revolutionary opera "Shajiabang", > > > > about a > > > > >> > woman > > > > >> >? ? who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > > children > > > > >> are > > > > >> >? ? acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > > officer; > > > > >> they > > > > >> >? ? accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > > all > > > > >> people > > > > >> > who > > > > >> >? ? come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they go, > > > > their > > > > >> > tea is > > > > >> >? ? cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the toothache > > of > > > > >> another > > > > >> >? ? person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > > words. > > > > >> >? ? Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > > >> > "immediately", > > > > >> >? ? because thoughts and words have already made the dialectical > > > > >> leap--the > > > > >> > leap > > > > >> >? ? from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? David Kellogg > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some people > > > > >> >? ? > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to be > > > > >> >? ? > the key category. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is activity > > > > >> >? ? > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > > >> >? ? > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > > >> >? ? > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > > >> >? ? > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > > >> >? ? > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > > >> >? ? > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision > of > > > > >> >? ? > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > > >> >? ? > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > > >> >? ? > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > > >> >? ? > this move. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa > does > > > > >> >? ? > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > Andy > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > > >> >? ? > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > > > > >> >? ? > Andy Blunden > > > > >> >? ? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > >> >? ? > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > > >> >? ? > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > > myself I > > > > >> > have > > > > >> >? ? > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > > sense) > > > > >> is a > > > > >> >? ? > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > -----Original Message----- > > > > >> >? ? > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > > >> >? ? > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > > >> >? ? > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > > >> >? ? > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > > > Mike > > > > >> > Cole; > > > > >> >? ? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > >> >? ? > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > oriented > > > > >> > activity > > > > >> >? ? > and communication > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Dear Alfredo, > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You definitely > > > > >> noticed > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and > developed > > > > >> > technologies, > > > > >> >? ? > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > > >> exploiters, > > > > >> > between > > > > >> >? ? > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > > opposite > > > > >> > between > > > > >> >? ? > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > > always > > > > >> been > > > > >> > a > > > > >> >? ? > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > > cosmopolitan > > > > >> class. > > > > >> >? ? > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > > fight > > > > >> and > > > > >> > to kill > > > > >> >? ? > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > > cooperate > > > > >> > with > > > > >> >? ? > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to > receive > > > > >> > dividends from > > > > >> >? ? > their enterprises located on the territory of their > "enemy." > > > > Today > > > > >> > Putin's > > > > >> >? ? > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > > their > > > > >> > capitals to > > > > >> >? ? > this West, buy property there, send their children to study > > > > there > > > > >> > and go > > > > >> >? ? > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > > Poroshenko > > > > >> - > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > president of the country that was subje > > > > >> >? ? > >? cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > > chocolate > > > > >> >? ? > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > > >> >? ? > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > > States, > > > > the > > > > >> > policy > > > > >> >? ? > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > > each > > > > >> other > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > working people of different ethnic groups and confessions, > > on > > > > >> their > > > > >> >? ? > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > > >> creatures. > > > > >> >? ? > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity incited > > by > > > > the > > > > >> > ruling > > > > >> >? ? > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > > working > > > > >> > people > > > > >> >? ? > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > > public > > > > >> >? ? > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > > constructed > > > > >> > allegedly on > > > > >> >? ? > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred years > > > ago, > > > > >> the > > > > >> >? ? > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, the > > > same > > > > >> task > > > > >> > is > > > > >> >? ? > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > > so-called > > > > >> > "cultural" > > > > >> >? ? > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > > biological > > > > >> > differences > > > > >> >? ? > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > > >> >? ? > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, but > > > also > > > > >> to > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > "psychology of culture". > > > > >> >? ? > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only in > > > words > > > > >> but > > > > >> > also > > > > >> >? ? > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is > not > > > the > > > > >> > ability of > > > > >> >? ? > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of > words, > > > but > > > > >> to > > > > >> > be > > > > >> >? ? > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects > > of > > > > >> labor. > > > > >> >? ? > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > > believed > > > > >> > that the > > > > >> >? ? > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is > > > > just a > > > > >> > verbal > > > > >> >? ? > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver to > > > us, > > > > >> then > > > > >> > any > > > > >> >? ? > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > > seem > > > > to > > > > >> us > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant > doing > > > his > > > > >> own > > > > >> > work, > > > > >> >? ? > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will > > > look > > > > >> > something > > > > >> >? ? > inferior. > > > > >> >? ? > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of Vygotsky's > > > > >> theory, > > > > >> > open > > > > >> >? ? > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a > > > > >> > transition > > > > >> >? ? > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that > is > > > > >> capable > > > > >> > of > > > > >> >? ? > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This > > > > >> implies > > > > >> > that > > > > >> >? ? > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > > different > > > > >> > way in > > > > >> >? ? > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This > qualitative > > > > >> > difference is > > > > >> >? ? > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of > reality. > > > > >> > Therefore, > > > > >> >? ? > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in the > > > true > > > > >> > sense of > > > > >> >? ? > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > > inseparable > > > > >> part > > > > >> > of the > > > > >> >? ? > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > > the > > > > >> domain > > > > >> > of > > > > >> >? ? > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an empty > > > > sound. > > > > >> A > > > > >> > word > > > > >> >? ? > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of speech. > > One > > > > >> > cannot say > > > > >> >? ? > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of the > > > word > > > > >> > taken > > > > >> >? ? > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It is > > > both > > > > at > > > > >> > one and > > > > >> >? ? > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > > >> >? ? > >? nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be that > > of > > > > >> > semantic > > > > >> >? ? > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > > meaningful > > > > >> > aspect of > > > > >> >? ? > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will > produce > > > > >> answers > > > > >> > to > > > > >> >? ? > our questions concerning the relationship between thinking > > and > > > > >> speech > > > > >> >? ? > because this relationship is already contained in the unit > > of > > > > >> > analysis. In > > > > >> >? ? > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > > unit, > > > > we > > > > >> > will > > > > >> >? ? > come to understand a great deal that is of direct relevance > > to > > > > the > > > > >> > problem > > > > >> >? ? > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the nature > > of > > > > >> verbal > > > > >> >? ? > thinking." > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not > the > > > > >> > slightest > > > > >> >? ? > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > > attempt > > > > to > > > > >> > combine > > > > >> >? ? > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with the > > > > school > > > > >> > textbook > > > > >> >? ? > of formal logic. > > > > >> >? ? > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > > detailed > > > > >> >? ? > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this > analysis > > > in > > > > >> the > > > > >> > very > > > > >> >? ? > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > > >> assertion > > > > >> > that > > > > >> >? ? > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a maximally > > > > >> aphoristic > > > > >> >? ? > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > > >> > materialists, the > > > > >> >? ? > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is the > > > > >> > instrument of > > > > >> >? ? > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > > generalization > > > > >> is > > > > >> > not a > > > > >> >? ? > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > > >> > generalizing the > > > > >> >? ? > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means of > > > > >> > analyzing all > > > > >> >? ? > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > > optics > > > > of > > > > >> >? ? > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > > >> ideality.) > > > > >> >? ? > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results > of > > > > >> Luria's > > > > >> > trip > > > > >> >? ? > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > > >> illiterate > > > > >> >? ? > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > > >> >? ? > >? r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe and > > > > melon > > > > >> are > > > > >> >? ? > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > > formal > > > > >> > logical > > > > >> >? ? > operations with words denoting these things, is declared a > > > > >> primitive > > > > >> >? ? > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap > who > > > > knows > > > > >> > how to > > > > >> >? ? > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > > the > > > > >> melon > > > > >> > only > > > > >> >? ? > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is declared > > > the > > > > >> > bearer of > > > > >> >? ? > scientific consciousness. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > > come > > > > to > > > > >> the > > > > >> >? ? > value of instruments of labor, not only for the > distribution > > > of > > > > >> > material > > > > >> >? ? > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > > wealth, > > > > for > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > distribution of the ability to think, for the distribution > > of > > > > >> > culture. Only > > > > >> >? ? > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > > culture > > > as > > > > >> the > > > > >> >? ? > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > > accumulated > > > > >> by > > > > >> >? ? > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of such > > > based > > > > >> on > > > > >> > idea of > > > > >> >? ? > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > > able > > > to > > > > >> get > > > > >> > out of > > > > >> >? ? > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > > arbitrariness. > > > > >> >? ? > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > > set > > > > the > > > > >> > task of > > > > >> >? ? > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > > considered > > > > that > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > first real step in this direction was made by his friend > and > > > > >> student > > > > >> > AN > > > > >> >? ? > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > > >> >? ? > > Sasha > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > >? ? ? ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > >> >? ? > >? ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> > >; > > > > >> >? ? > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > > >; > > > > >> > Martin > > > > >> >? ? > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? < > > > > >> >? ? > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > > >> >? ? > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > > >> >? ? > >? ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > > >> >? ? > >? ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > > >> activity > > > > >> > and > > > > >> >? ? > communication > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > > >> >? ? > Dear Sasha, all, > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > > issues > > > > at > > > > >> > home > > > > >> >? ? > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have limited > > > > >> > participation > > > > >> >? ? > anywhere else than home life. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like a > > > > >> concrete > > > > >> > aspect > > > > >> >? ? > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning of > > > this > > > > >> >? ? > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical (real) > > > > >> relevance > > > > >> > to us > > > > >> >? ? > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is this > > > > >> 'real,' > > > > >> > and is > > > > >> >? ? > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > > addressing > > > > >> any > > > > >> > and > > > > >> >? ? > everyone) > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Alfredo > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > > >> >? ? > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > > >> >? ? > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Alfredo > > > > Jornet > > > > >> > Gil; > > > > >> >? ? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > >> >? ? > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > oriented > > > > >> > activity > > > > >> >? ? > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going > to > > > > >> discuss > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > > most > > > > >> > mature work. > > > > >> >? ? > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > > >> "Dialectics > > > > >> > of the > > > > >> >? ? > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am aware > > > that > > > > >> > there is a > > > > >> >? ? > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > > >> adequately > > > > >> >? ? > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > > Marx's > > > > >> > theory was > > > > >> >? ? > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > > better > > > > to > > > > >> > study > > > > >> >? ? > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of ?Das > > > > >> Kapital?. > > > > >> > Along > > > > >> >? ? > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that the > > > > >> > discussion of > > > > >> >? ? > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > > themes. > > > > I > > > > >> > think > > > > >> >? ? > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > > "steps", > > > > >> but > > > > >> >? ? > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that after > > > that > > > > >> try > > > > >> > to rise > > > > >> >? ? > from it to the seco > > > > >> >? ? > >? nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young age, > > it > > > > >> seems > > > > >> > to me > > > > >> >? ? > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > > discussion > > > > of > > > > >> the > > > > >> >? ? > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > > preparation > > > to > > > > >> > thinking, > > > > >> >? ? > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method can > > not > > > > be > > > > >> > studied > > > > >> >? ? > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > > Perhaps > > > > >> this > > > > >> > seems > > > > >> >? ? > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are not > > > > >> familiar > > > > >> > with > > > > >> >? ? > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > > >> discussing > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > > continue > > > > >> to > > > > >> > carry > > > > >> >? ? > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of the > > > term > > > > >> > activity. > > > > >> >? ? > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for translators > > > from > > > > >> > Russian (or > > > > >> >? ? > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > > very > > > > >> > informative. > > > > >> >? ? > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden completely > > > > >> exhausted > > > > >> > this > > > > >> >? ? > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > > discuss > > > > >> the > > > > >> >? ? > question: what is the justificati > > > > >> >? ? > >? on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > > Where, > > > > >> in > > > > >> > any > > > > >> >? ? > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of > activity, > > > not > > > > >> > just uses > > > > >> >? ? > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which it > > is > > > > >> used > > > > >> >? ? > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > > >> activities) of > > > > >> >? ? > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > > >> functions?, > > > > >> > ?speech > > > > >> >? ? > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > > >> > personality?- all > > > > >> >? ? > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, with > > > > Spinoza > > > > >> > and > > > > >> >? ? > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > > >> discussing > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > > Vygotsky > > > > >> > and > > > > >> >? ? > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > > necessary > > > > to > > > > >> > try to > > > > >> >? ? > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, proceeding > > > from > > > > >> THE > > > > >> > REAL > > > > >> >? ? > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is > impossible > > > to > > > > >> > understand > > > > >> >? ? > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > > such > > > > >> > theoretical > > > > >> >? ? > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > > >> introduces a > > > > >> >? ? > category of object-oriented a > > > > >> >? ? > >? ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little use > > > for > > > > >> > solving > > > > >> >? ? > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never said > > > ?B?. > > > > >> > Having > > > > >> >? ? > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis > of > > > the > > > > >> >? ? > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not go > > > > further > > > > >> > failing > > > > >> >? ? > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract category.Once > > > > again, > > > > >> > from > > > > >> >? ? > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > > >> >? ? > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological Theory > > of > > > > >> > Activity" we > > > > >> >? ? > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > > >> fundamentally > > > > >> > new > > > > >> >? ? > approaches to education, based on dialectical, > revolutionary > > > > >> method > > > > >> > of > > > > >> >? ? > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary to > > > begin > > > > >> not > > > > >> > so > > > > >> >? ? > much - to learn to listen to each other... > > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > > >> >? ? > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > >> >? ? > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > > >> >? ? > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > activity > > > > >> and > > > > >> >? ? > communication > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. My > > > > point > > > > >> is > > > > >> > that > > > > >> >? ? > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s analysis, > > > and > > > > >> > about its > > > > >> >? ? > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order of > > > the > > > > >> > treatment > > > > >> >? ? > in Capital. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Martin > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > ablunden@mira.net > > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3. > > htm > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > >? Of course the method of presentation must differ in form > > > > >> >? ? > >? from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the > > > > >> >? ? > >? material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > > >> >? ? > >? development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > > >> >? ? > >? after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > > >> >? ? > >? adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > > >> >? ? > >? the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > > >> >? ? > >? in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a > > > > >> >? ? > >? mere a priori construction. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Andy > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > > > >> >? ? > > Andy Blunden > > > > >> >? ? > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > >> >? ? > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > > >> >? ? > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the details > > of > > > > >> Marx?s > > > > >> >? ? > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > > Grundrisse. > > > > The > > > > >> > two have > > > > >> >? ? > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the order > > of > > > > >> > presentation > > > > >> >? ? > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Martin > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Mon Nov 6 02:42:02 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 10:42:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication In-Reply-To: <1094514357.5074126.1509962898286@mail.yahoo.com> References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no>, <1094514357.5074126.1509962898286@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1509964922057.20550@iped.uio.no> Thanks Haidy; nothing faulty in anything you've quoted and/or written. I did not mean to display doubt of the ?connection between Volosinov and socio-economical reality; I just asking someone to elaborate on that, just like I am inclined to think that no one in this forum is willing to immerse in verbal or pure thinking for ever! :) Best wishes, Alfredo ________________________________ From: ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? Sent: 06 November 2017 11:08 To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication Alfredo, In the year you notice in the attached , I began reading Volosinov. Those are , I hope sincerely , Volosinov's ideas. I hope none of the attached is mine or comments or additions attributed to Volosinov. This is my worry! Have you read and understood the attached as quotes from Volosinov? If that's so , what should I be accountable for? The Marx discussion was curtailed and I didn't mean to go back to Marx. But even if I've gone back to Marx or targeted not to sever Volosinov from Marx , would that be considered a faulty thing. The question is if you are for or against it and for what reasons in which case , as I referred to , I will be pleased and indebted. And what's again that I should clarify? I accepted Martin's general argument and the piece everywhere confirms that. I think Ilyenko also somehow confirms that. Thoughts are firstly embodied in words. But is this a direct transformation? Is it not the case that some material procedures led to the creation of the word? And the long way this word traverses to become a concept? And the mutual affectation Andy mentioned and I repeated a couple of times? When we reach concepts , we don't credit them to oblivion or to some a storehouse. Is not the concept the proper reflection of material procedures in theory? Then again we take the concept to throw light in our new material procedures? Or we immerse in verbal or pure thinking for ever? Crude reality of wealth distribution is not connected to Volosinov's work? The 'Das Capital' is the story of exploitation and alienation thereof. Why should a great figure crave to create another 'Das Capital' in Psychology? Must any great figure's research be pure political economy? What I get from Volosinov's framework is : economic infrastructure , social relations , reflection of these social relations onto mind ideally leading firstly to the creation of signs on the edge , superstructure , ideology , consciousness , social conscious individual as agent reworking a whole new trend. I repeat again that the whole attached is Volosinov's hopefully. As I understand it , Bibler is a better figure for departing from culture moving in a reverse track. Best Haydi ________________________________ From: Alfredo Jornet Gil To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ; ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? Sent: Monday, 6 November 2017, 11:40:41 Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could you or anyone else help me understand? I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, reading the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of verbal communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and the sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs 99% of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? Thanks, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? > Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication Alfredo, I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get engaged in any more discussion. If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully and with care and attention and gratitude. You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such condemnation. It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual base. The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over ones become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative of their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and slave owners (old and new). When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just a 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. Here verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship evil! Voila Voloshinov!! Best Haydi From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital to Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, Brecht, Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education to privileged access. How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking about privileged access (to immediate experience)? Here was Sasha's critique: "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." and that, "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own work, but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look something inferior." Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do with exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the issue of democratic education? My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond of Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply externalising something that had been formed internally but rather thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it that makes me suspicious. Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has been mobilised in the thread: "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an individuation of a social emotion" (D.K to Greg). I may be wrong or miss some of the background, but to me, this type of argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, who argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming magic arbitrary forces. I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that the most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of the relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. 40). If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche and ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary and objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two poles constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) and "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a fiction. It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction from the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's been posed here a fiction too? In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express their life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT community. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented activity and communication Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the Philosophy of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie"). At the other end of the pole is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond sullen and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians who reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight of a satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course Brecht was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He wonders why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this is the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an individuation of a social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist Party). Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: We have hunger, hunger, hunger Have hunger, hunger hunger Have hunger, hunger hunger Have thirst. If we don't get something, get, get, get We'll eat flies, flies, flies We'll eat flies, flies, flies >From the wall. If they don't taste good, taste, taste We'll eat snails, snails, snails, We'll eat snails, snails, snails, >From the forest. If they don't last, last, last We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses >From the grave. If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes >From the forest. (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks into virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the song much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would be far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) David Kellogg (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ dk On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open to > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > archived). > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think as > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being careful > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this is > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > -greg? > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just realized > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma > wrote: > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > between > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > James > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" >??? > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged access > - > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > James > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of one of > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it happens > to > > be > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism implied > by > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this capacity > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these are > > WEIRD > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in some > > > cultural > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that is > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm thinking > of > > > the > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > seeing > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of practical > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > Volosinov's > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > different > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and not?)? > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, but > > seems > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the vein > of > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > subject/object, > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels is > > his > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is communicated > is > > a > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable thought > > "I'm > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > "Grandpa > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself". I think that when > > > Alan > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > seeing > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > concrete > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > address. > > > So > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not confounded. > > > >> > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole flock > > > takes > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than "communication". > > > What > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > afraid > > > of > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > geese > > > are > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; they > are > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > >> > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > pepper > > > on > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your cold. > > > There > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream in a > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > airplane > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated was > the > > > >> fact > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > >> > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. Adolfo > > > >> Garcia > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you can > say > > > "My > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that it > was > > > >> time > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was time > > for > > > >> breakfast". Mental processes are one thing, and material processes > > are > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > reflect > > > >> this > > > >> knowledge. > > > >> > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > >> > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > >> > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > >> > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett thinks > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has understood > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are actually > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > >> > > > >> David Kellogg > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > David > > > >> > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel their > > pain? > > > >> and > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson seems > to > > > >> feel > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they poke > > their > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to have > any > > > >> words > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and such a > > way, > > > >> you > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the expression > > > straight > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > >> > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. As > > Alan > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed to a > > cow > > > in > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > called?) > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > >> > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > >> > > > > >> > Julian > > > >> > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf > of > > > >> David > > > >> > Kellogg" on behalf of > > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > brain > > > >> > differently > > > >> > than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to MRI > > scans > > > >> or > > > >> > computerized tomography. In fact these can and do distinguish > > > >> between > > > >> > verbs > > > >> > of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky did > > > have > > > >> > access > > > >> > to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > >> > > > > >> > In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > words > > of > > > >> > another > > > >> > person. I can say, for example: > > > >> > > > > >> > Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with Marxism". > > > >> > > > > >> > I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > >> > > > > >> > Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with Marxism." > > > >> > > > > >> > I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as I > can > > > >> read > > > >> > Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > >> > > > > >> > However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > the > > > >> > actions or > > > >> > the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, for > > > >> example: > > > >> > > > > >> > "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > >> > > > > >> > "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > >> > > > > >> > When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > thought a > > > >> > word > > > >> > meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > >> > > > > >> > In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > cold." > > > >> This > > > >> > is > > > >> > originally a line from the revolutionary opera "Shajiabang", > > > about a > > > >> > woman > > > >> > who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > children > > > >> are > > > >> > acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > officer; > > > >> they > > > >> > accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > all > > > >> people > > > >> > who > > > >> > come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they go, > > > their > > > >> > tea is > > > >> > cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > >> > > > > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > >> > > > > >> > There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the toothache > of > > > >> another > > > >> > person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > words. > > > >> > Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > >> > "immediately", > > > >> > because thoughts and words have already made the dialectical > > > >> leap--the > > > >> > leap > > > >> > from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > >> > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > >> > > > > >> > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some people > > > >> > > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to be > > > >> > > the key category. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is activity > > > >> > > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > >> > > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > >> > > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > >> > > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > >> > > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > >> > > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision of > > > >> > > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > >> > > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > >> > > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > >> > > this move. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa does > > > >> > > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > >> > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > >> > > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > >> > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> > > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > >> > > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > myself I > > > >> > have > > > >> > > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > sense) > > > >> is a > > > >> > > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > > >> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > >> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > >> > > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > >> > > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > > Mike > > > >> > Cole; > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > >> > activity > > > >> > > and communication > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Dear Alfredo, > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You definitely > > > >> noticed > > > >> > the > > > >> > > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and developed > > > >> > technologies, > > > >> > > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > >> exploiters, > > > >> > between > > > >> > > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > opposite > > > >> > between > > > >> > > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > always > > > >> been > > > >> > a > > > >> > > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > cosmopolitan > > > >> class. > > > >> > > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > fight > > > >> and > > > >> > to kill > > > >> > > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > cooperate > > > >> > with > > > >> > > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to receive > > > >> > dividends from > > > >> > > their enterprises located on the territory of their "enemy." > > > Today > > > >> > Putin's > > > >> > > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > their > > > >> > capitals to > > > >> > > this West, buy property there, send their children to study > > > there > > > >> > and go > > > >> > > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > Poroshenko > > > >> - > > > >> > the > > > >> > > president of the country that was subje > > > >> > > > cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > chocolate > > > >> > > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > >> > > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > States, > > > the > > > >> > policy > > > >> > > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > each > > > >> other > > > >> > the > > > >> > > working people of different ethnic groups and confessions, > on > > > >> their > > > >> > > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > >> creatures. > > > >> > > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity incited > by > > > the > > > >> > ruling > > > >> > > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > working > > > >> > people > > > >> > > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > public > > > >> > > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > constructed > > > >> > allegedly on > > > >> > > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred years > > ago, > > > >> the > > > >> > > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, the > > same > > > >> task > > > >> > is > > > >> > > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > so-called > > > >> > "cultural" > > > >> > > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > biological > > > >> > differences > > > >> > > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > >> > > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, but > > also > > > >> to > > > >> > the > > > >> > > "psychology of culture". > > > >> > > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only in > > words > > > >> but > > > >> > also > > > >> > > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is not > > the > > > >> > ability of > > > >> > > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of words, > > but > > > >> to > > > >> > be > > > >> > > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects > of > > > >> labor. > > > >> > > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > believed > > > >> > that the > > > >> > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is > > > just a > > > >> > verbal > > > >> > > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver to > > us, > > > >> then > > > >> > any > > > >> > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > seem > > > to > > > >> us > > > >> > the > > > >> > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing > > his > > > >> own > > > >> > work, > > > >> > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will > > look > > > >> > something > > > >> > > inferior. > > > >> > > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of Vygotsky's > > > >> theory, > > > >> > open > > > >> > > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a > > > >> > transition > > > >> > > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that is > > > >> capable > > > >> > of > > > >> > > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This > > > >> implies > > > >> > that > > > >> > > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > different > > > >> > way in > > > >> > > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This qualitative > > > >> > difference is > > > >> > > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of reality. > > > >> > Therefore, > > > >> > > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in the > > true > > > >> > sense of > > > >> > > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > inseparable > > > >> part > > > >> > of the > > > >> > > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > the > > > >> domain > > > >> > of > > > >> > > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an empty > > > sound. > > > >> A > > > >> > word > > > >> > > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of speech. > One > > > >> > cannot say > > > >> > > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of the > > word > > > >> > taken > > > >> > > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It is > > both > > > at > > > >> > one and > > > >> > > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > >> > > > nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be that > of > > > >> > semantic > > > >> > > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > meaningful > > > >> > aspect of > > > >> > > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will produce > > > >> answers > > > >> > to > > > >> > > our questions concerning the relationship between thinking > and > > > >> speech > > > >> > > because this relationship is already contained in the unit > of > > > >> > analysis. In > > > >> > > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > unit, > > > we > > > >> > will > > > >> > > come to understand a great deal that is of direct relevance > to > > > the > > > >> > problem > > > >> > > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the nature > of > > > >> verbal > > > >> > > thinking." > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not the > > > >> > slightest > > > >> > > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > attempt > > > to > > > >> > combine > > > >> > > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with the > > > school > > > >> > textbook > > > >> > > of formal logic. > > > >> > > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > detailed > > > >> > > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this analysis > > in > > > >> the > > > >> > very > > > >> > > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > >> assertion > > > >> > that > > > >> > > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a maximally > > > >> aphoristic > > > >> > > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > >> > materialists, the > > > >> > > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is the > > > >> > instrument of > > > >> > > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > generalization > > > >> is > > > >> > not a > > > >> > > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > >> > generalizing the > > > >> > > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means of > > > >> > analyzing all > > > >> > > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > optics > > > of > > > >> > > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > >> ideality.) > > > >> > > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results of > > > >> Luria's > > > >> > trip > > > >> > > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > >> illiterate > > > >> > > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > >> > > > r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe and > > > melon > > > >> are > > > >> > > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > formal > > > >> > logical > > > >> > > operations with words denoting these things, is declared a > > > >> primitive > > > >> > > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap who > > > knows > > > >> > how to > > > >> > > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > the > > > >> melon > > > >> > only > > > >> > > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is declared > > the > > > >> > bearer of > > > >> > > scientific consciousness. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > come > > > to > > > >> the > > > >> > > value of instruments of labor, not only for the distribution > > of > > > >> > material > > > >> > > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > wealth, > > > for > > > >> > the > > > >> > > distribution of the ability to think, for the distribution > of > > > >> > culture. Only > > > >> > > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > culture > > as > > > >> the > > > >> > > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > accumulated > > > >> by > > > >> > > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of such > > based > > > >> on > > > >> > idea of > > > >> > > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > able > > to > > > >> get > > > >> > out of > > > >> > > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > arbitrariness. > > > >> > > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > set > > > the > > > >> > task of > > > >> > > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > considered > > > that > > > >> > the > > > >> > > first real step in this direction was made by his friend and > > > >> student > > > >> > AN > > > >> > > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > >> > > > Sasha > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >> > >; > > > >> > > Mike Cole >; ivan-dgf < > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > >; > > > >> > Martin > > > >> > > John Packer >; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? < > > > >> > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > >> > > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > >> > > > ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > >> > > > ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > >> activity > > > >> > and > > > >> > > communication > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > >> > > Dear Sasha, all, > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > issues > > > at > > > >> > home > > > >> > > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have limited > > > >> > participation > > > >> > > anywhere else than home life. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like a > > > >> concrete > > > >> > aspect > > > >> > > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning of > > this > > > >> > > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical (real) > > > >> relevance > > > >> > to us > > > >> > > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is this > > > >> 'real,' > > > >> > and is > > > >> > > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > addressing > > > >> any > > > >> > and > > > >> > > everyone) > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Alfredo > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > > >> > > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > >> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Alfredo > > > Jornet > > > >> > Gil; > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > >> > > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > >> > activity > > > >> > > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going to > > > >> discuss > > > >> > the > > > >> > > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > most > > > >> > mature work. > > > >> > > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > >> "Dialectics > > > >> > of the > > > >> > > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am aware > > that > > > >> > there is a > > > >> > > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > >> adequately > > > >> > > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > Marx's > > > >> > theory was > > > >> > > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > better > > > to > > > >> > study > > > >> > > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of ?Das > > > >> Kapital?. > > > >> > Along > > > >> > > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that the > > > >> > discussion of > > > >> > > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > themes. > > > I > > > >> > think > > > >> > > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > "steps", > > > >> but > > > >> > > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that after > > that > > > >> try > > > >> > to rise > > > >> > > from it to the seco > > > >> > > > nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young age, > it > > > >> seems > > > >> > to me > > > >> > > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > discussion > > > of > > > >> the > > > >> > > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > preparation > > to > > > >> > thinking, > > > >> > > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method can > not > > > be > > > >> > studied > > > >> > > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > Perhaps > > > >> this > > > >> > seems > > > >> > > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are not > > > >> familiar > > > >> > with > > > >> > > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > >> discussing > > > >> > the > > > >> > > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > continue > > > >> to > > > >> > carry > > > >> > > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of the > > term > > > >> > activity. > > > >> > > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for translators > > from > > > >> > Russian (or > > > >> > > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > very > > > >> > informative. > > > >> > > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden completely > > > >> exhausted > > > >> > this > > > >> > > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > discuss > > > >> the > > > >> > > question: what is the justificati > > > >> > > > on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > Where, > > > >> in > > > >> > any > > > >> > > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of activity, > > not > > > >> > just uses > > > >> > > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which it > is > > > >> used > > > >> > > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > >> activities) of > > > >> > > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > >> functions?, > > > >> > ?speech > > > >> > > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > >> > personality?- all > > > >> > > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, with > > > Spinoza > > > >> > and > > > >> > > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > >> discussing > > > >> > the > > > >> > > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > Vygotsky > > > >> > and > > > >> > > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > necessary > > > to > > > >> > try to > > > >> > > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, proceeding > > from > > > >> THE > > > >> > REAL > > > >> > > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is impossible > > to > > > >> > understand > > > >> > > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > such > > > >> > theoretical > > > >> > > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > >> introduces a > > > >> > > category of object-oriented a > > > >> > > > ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little use > > for > > > >> > solving > > > >> > > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never said > > ?B?. > > > >> > Having > > > >> > > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis of > > the > > > >> > > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not go > > > further > > > >> > failing > > > >> > > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract category.Once > > > again, > > > >> > from > > > >> > > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > >> > > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological Theory > of > > > >> > Activity" we > > > >> > > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > >> fundamentally > > > >> > new > > > >> > > approaches to education, based on dialectical, revolutionary > > > >> method > > > >> > of > > > >> > > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary to > > begin > > > >> not > > > >> > so > > > >> > > much - to learn to listen to each other... > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > >> > > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > >> > > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > activity > > > >> and > > > >> > > communication > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. My > > > point > > > >> is > > > >> > that > > > >> > > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s analysis, > > and > > > >> > about its > > > >> > > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order of > > the > > > >> > treatment > > > >> > > in Capital. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > ablunden@mira.net > > > >> > > > >> > > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3. > htm > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Of course the method of presentation must differ in form > > > >> > > > from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the > > > >> > > > material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > >> > > > development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > >> > > > after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > >> > > > adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > >> > > > the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > >> > > > in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a > > > >> > > > mere a priori construction. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Andy > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > > > >> > > > Andy Blunden > > > >> > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> > > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > >> > > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the details > of > > > >> Marx?s > > > >> > > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > Grundrisse. > > > The > > > >> > two have > > > >> > > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the order > of > > > >> > presentation > > > >> > > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Mon Nov 6 11:14:42 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 21:14:42 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> Message-ID: It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non concept for studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and many others. I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not be studied without this concept. Completely impossible. For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of sounds, thoughts and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, cognition and emotion. In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for instance, Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says that the closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour in the poems of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more sensitive to sounds than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian language and literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of rythm in Pushkin whereas there is in all others) Do we know any example of any such study in Russian databases? A poet studied with "perezhivanie". On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden wrote: > I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > as well: > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim Hikmet, > > whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at > each > > stage of his life, > > I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning from > > life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters > and > > play writers. > > Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his > > novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Ulvi > > > > I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with > > carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was covered > > with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, a > > rococo > > table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the > > Black > > Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > > thirty-fiveyear > > journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a > > long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more precisely, a > > grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de > > France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > > blood-stained > > block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood rushes > > to my > > head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in > > ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: > death > > before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on > this > > table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this > cause? > > What > > can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How > > many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if > necessary! > > Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to > > travel, > > to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here on > > this > > rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara from > > there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, wining > > and > > dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole > life in > > prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like > Mustafa > > Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself > these > > questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > > killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I > > first knew > > I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, > > crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, > > blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought > about > > going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked > around > > the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room > in > > the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my > eyes. > > Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept > blindness. > > Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. Not > > books or > > word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. > > Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the > > surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how it > is > > . > > > > > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Mon Nov 6 11:28:35 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 21:28:35 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> Message-ID: Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a principal worry for Marina Tsvetaeva by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and literature... Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is to look into theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not use the concept, we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those theses... probably because poets are the best human beings to study "perezhivanie" for reasons easy to conceive. Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, Tsvetaeva...who all suicided, unfortunately. On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il wrote: > It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non concept for > studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and many others. > > I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not be studied > without this concept. > > Completely impossible. > > For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of sounds, thoughts > and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, cognition > and emotion. > > In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for instance, > Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says that the > closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour in the poems > of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more sensitive to sounds > than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian language and > literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of rythm in > Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > Do we know any example of any such study in Russian databases? A poet > studied with "perezhivanie". > > > > > > > > > > > On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read >> as well: >> >> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf >> >> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >> > Dear all, >> > >> > For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim >> Hikmet, >> > whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at >> each >> > stage of his life, >> > I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning from >> > life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters >> and >> > play writers. >> > Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his >> > novel, Life's good, brother. >> > >> > I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. >> > >> > Thank you. >> > >> > Ulvi >> > >> > I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with >> > carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was >> covered >> > with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, a >> > rococo >> > table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the >> > Black >> > Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, >> > thirty-fiveyear >> > journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a >> > long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more precisely, >> a >> > grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de >> > France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, >> > blood-stained >> > block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood >> rushes >> > to my >> > head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in >> > ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: >> death >> > before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on >> this >> > table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this >> cause? >> > What >> > can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How >> > many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if >> necessary! >> > Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to >> > travel, >> > to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here on >> > this >> > rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara >> from >> > there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, >> wining >> > and >> > dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole >> life in >> > prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like >> Mustafa >> > Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself >> these >> > questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being >> > killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I >> > first knew >> > I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, >> > crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, >> > blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought >> about >> > going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked >> around >> > the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room >> in >> > the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my >> eyes. >> > Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept >> blindness. >> > Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. Not >> > books or >> > word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. >> > Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the >> > surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how >> it is >> > . >> > >> > >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Veselovsky_IzvvedeniiaFINAL.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 249480 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20171106/7f8b8016/attachment.pdf From ablunden@mira.net Mon Nov 6 17:09:24 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 12:09:24 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> Message-ID: <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's multi-volume autobiography to you, Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a principal > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and literature... > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is to look into > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not use the > concept, > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those theses... > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study "perezhivanie" > for reasons easy to conceive. > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, Tsvetaeva...who all > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non concept for >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and many others. >> >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not be studied >> without this concept. >> >> Completely impossible. >> >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of sounds, thoughts >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, cognition >> and emotion. >> >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for instance, >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says that the >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour in the poems >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more sensitive to sounds >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian language and >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of rythm in >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) >> >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian databases? A poet >> studied with "perezhivanie". >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read >>> as well: >>> >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf >>> >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim >>> Hikmet, >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at >>> each >>>> stage of his life, >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning from >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, painters >>> and >>>> play writers. >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. >>>> >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> Ulvi >>>> >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was >>> covered >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in ?sk?dar, a >>>> rococo >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from the >>>> Black >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, >>>> thirty-fiveyear >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more precisely, >>> a >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, >>>> blood-stained >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood >>> rushes >>>> to my >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea in >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: >>> death >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on >>> this >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this >>> cause? >>>> What >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if >>> necessary! >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to >>>> travel, >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here on >>>> this >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara >>> from >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, >>> wining >>>> and >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole >>> life in >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like >>> Mustafa >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself >>> these >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. I >>>> first knew >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be disabled, >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought >>> about >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked >>> around >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the room >>> in >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my >>> eyes. >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept >>> blindness. >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. Not >>>> books or >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how >>> it is >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>> From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Mon Nov 6 23:38:11 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 09:38:11 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: I agree Andy. That novel of Nazim was autobiographical one. Also I have read Mahn's and Steiner's article in which journals of youth are mentioned. I think that poems which reflect life experiences of the poet can be studied through perezhivanie. Nazim's almost all poems belong to this category, development of identity etc. 7 Kas 2017 04:11 tarihinde "Andy Blunden" yazd?: > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > multi-volume autobiography to you, > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a principal > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and literature... > > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is to look > into > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not use the > > concept, > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those theses... > > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study "perezhivanie" > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, Tsvetaeva...who all > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non concept > for > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and many > others. > >> > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not be > studied > >> without this concept. > >> > >> Completely impossible. > >> > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of sounds, thoughts > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, cognition > >> and emotion. > >> > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for instance, > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says that the > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour in the > poems > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more sensitive to > sounds > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian language and > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of rythm in > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > >> > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian databases? A poet > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > >>> as well: > >>> > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > >>> > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> Andy Blunden > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > >>>> Dear all, > >>>> > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim > >>> Hikmet, > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at > >>> each > >>>> stage of his life, > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning > from > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, > painters > >>> and > >>>> play writers. > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > >>>> > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. > >>>> > >>>> Thank you. > >>>> > >>>> Ulvi > >>>> > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was > >>> covered > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in > ?sk?dar, a > >>>> rococo > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from > the > >>>> Black > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more > precisely, > >>> a > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > >>>> blood-stained > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood > >>> rushes > >>>> to my > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea > in > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: > >>> death > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on > >>> this > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this > >>> cause? > >>>> What > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if > >>> necessary! > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to > >>>> travel, > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here > on > >>>> this > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara > >>> from > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, > >>> wining > >>>> and > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole > >>> life in > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like > >>> Mustafa > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself > >>> these > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. > I > >>>> first knew > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be > disabled, > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought > >>> about > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked > >>> around > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the > room > >>> in > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my > >>> eyes. > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept > >>> blindness. > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. > Not > >>>> books or > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how > >>> it is > >>>> . > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > From alexander.surmava@yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 14:01:20 2017 From: alexander.surmava@yahoo.com (Alexander Surmava) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 22:01:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgUmU6IDogT2JqZWN0IG9yaWVudGVkIGFjdGl2aXR5?= =?utf-8?q?_and_communication?= In-Reply-To: <1509961400413.22381@iped.uio.no> References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> <1509961400413.22381@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <625325354.7444882.1510092080294@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Colleagues. I must apologize for the long silence.Meanwhile, our discussion is becoming more and more interesting for me, pushing for new reflections and new plans. Well, or to return to the old plans, the implementation of which I have long postponed.I am referring to my plans to embark on a study with the aim to clarify the Marxist view of the concept of "ideality" - the central category of classical philosophy, starting at least from Plato. "The dialectic of ideality" was the last theoretical work of Ilyenkov. Meanwhile, there is enough reasons to believe that this topic, which was of the utmost importance for philosophy and psychology, was far from complete.Below, I will publish a rather large post, the logic of which brings our discussion to the discussion of the problem of ideality.In the meantime looking ahead?I want to say that Bakhtin / Voloshinov, who emerged in our conversation with his popular essay "Marxism and the Philosophy of Language" with his "brilliant" substitution of the category "ideality" with the category "ideology" is a gift for our future work on ideality, for in a concentrated form he demonstrates how a false understanding of ideality leads to a complete break with Marxism. Sasha ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ??????????: ???????????, 6 ?????? 2017 12:45 ????: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication As a clarification, that sounds clear to me, David, thanks! I wonder how does that sound to others, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: 06 November 2017 10:37 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication I'll try, Alfredo. I think that Sasha and Haydi are arguing that if we accept language as sign, we risk treating it as a superstructure that has freed itself from its base, that is, the labor of the worker and the peasant, labor which has the power to materially transform a material environment. This is a move they oppose, because there is the danger that a semiotic superstructure will supply itself a "different" base--that is, a base not in the laborer who materially transforms the material environment but rather in the thinker who ideologically transforms an ideal context and thus acts on himself or herself but leaves the worker and the peasant in the lurch. Both Sasha and Haydi consider Leontiev and activity as an important countermeasure to this semanticizing tendency in Vygotsky.This is an argument with a lot of history, and it is one that I reject. I don't simply reject it on behalf of the child, who has to master signs before she or he can master tools (and even when the child can master tools, viz. toy tools, the child must master them as signs--as meanings--and not as a means to transform the social environment.? I also reject it on the part of the worker and the peasant, as did Brecht, as did Vygotsky, and...as did Volosinov. For if Haydi is going to read the whole of Volosinov, he must indeed select aspects of Volosinov that he does not like, including Volosinov's very Marxist distinction between the way that the peasant experiences hunger and the way that the worker experiences it: these are indeed different poles of the same experience, and one can go much closer to the 'we pole' than the other. (The reason why the Chinese famine of 1959-1961 was so devestating was precisely that it was experienced very differently in the cities than in the countryside.) The use of "pole" is not mine; it is that of Volosinov (p. 87). Similarly, the use of "water into wine" is not mine; it is that of Vygotsky (Psychology of Art, p. 243). Vygotsky is rejecting the Bukharinist notion of Proletkult, that of the artist as a Christlike figure, multiplying bread and fishes for the masses. For Vygotsky, this isn't much of a miracle at all, it is precisely what peasants and workers quite without art every single day of their working lives. If we want art to permeate life, we cannot do it by reducing art to the level of everyday experience: that is not art permeating life, but only the tired old nineteenth century slogan of life permeating art, repeated as Proletkult, as Soviet socialist realism, and consequently, as Marx would say, as farce. David Kellogg On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could you > or anyone else help me understand? > > I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist > approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, reading > the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of verbal > communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and the > sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). > > Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila > Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs 99% > of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? > > Thanks, > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? > Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > Alfredo, > I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get > engaged in any more discussion. > > If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully > and with care and attention and gratitude. > > You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to > replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support > from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece > which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of > the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not > tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such > condemnation. > > It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual base. > The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over > one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over ones > become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the > previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative of > their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the > whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and > slave owners (old and new). > > When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore > but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. > > Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as > measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just a > 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. Here > verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having > co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , > sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 > pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship > evil! > Voila Voloshinov!! > > Best > Haydi > > >? ? ? From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >? To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >? Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 >? Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital to > Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, Brecht, > Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education > to privileged access. > > How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking > about privileged access (to immediate experience)? > > Here was Sasha's critique: > > "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience > (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of > object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." > > and that, > > "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal > 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own work, > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look something > inferior." > > Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we > ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do with > exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest > for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words > supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the > latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the issue > of democratic education? > > My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed > out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems > quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than > some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a > quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond of > Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply > externalising something that had? been formed internally but rather > thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical > activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) > experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it that > makes me suspicious. > > Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has > been mobilised in the thread: > > "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" > goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and > alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not > primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an > individuation of a social emotion"? (D.K to Greg). > > I may be wrong or miss some of the background,? but to me, this type of > argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, who > argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on > converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming > magic arbitrary forces. > > I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it > "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that the > most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of the > relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes > resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a > materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. 40). > If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche and > ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary and > objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that > social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. > > I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an > I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it > is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov > in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two poles > constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: > > "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward > expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) > > and > > "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material > (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a fiction. > It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction from > the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). > > But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness > is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's been > posed here a fiction too? > > In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express their > life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their > production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', > 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT > community. > > Alfredo > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:? Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > activity and communication > > Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the Philosophy > of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one > end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be > communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is > provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this > experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, > the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er > lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie").? At the other end of the pole > is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is > over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond sullen > and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the > peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians who > reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight of a > satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. > (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both > poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my > English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) > > Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course Brecht > was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, > where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He wonders > why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much > more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by > Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this is > the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I > experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we > experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically > transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially an > "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an individuation of a > social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on > Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually > supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help > yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist > Party). > > Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: > > We have hunger, hunger, hunger > Have hunger, hunger hunger > Have hunger, hunger hunger > Have thirst. > > If we don't get something, get, get, get > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > >From the wall. > > If they don't taste good, taste, taste > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > >From the forest. > > If they don't last, last, last > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > >From the grave. > > If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > >From the forest. > > (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks into > virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the song > much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" > with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would be > far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) > > David Kellogg > > (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine > Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love > with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ > > dk > > On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open to > > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > > archived). > > > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think as > > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being careful > > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this > is > > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > > > -greg? > > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just realized > > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma wrote: > > > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > > between > > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > > > James > > > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged > access > > - > > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > > > James > > > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of one > of > > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it happens > > to > > > be > > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism > implied > > by > > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this > capacity > > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these are > > > WEIRD > > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in some > > > > cultural > > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that is > > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm thinking > > of > > > > the > > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > > seeing > > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of practical > > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > > Volosinov's > > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > > different > > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and not?)? > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, but > > > seems > > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the vein > > of > > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > > subject/object, > > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels > is > > > his > > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is communicated > > is > > > a > > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable thought > > > "I'm > > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > > "Grandpa > > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself".? I think that > when > > > > Alan > > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > > seeing > > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > > concrete > > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > > address. > > > > So > > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not confounded. > > > > >> > > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole > flock > > > > takes > > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than > "communication". > > > > What > > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > > afraid > > > > of > > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > > geese > > > > are > > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; they > > are > > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > > >> > > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > > pepper > > > > on > > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your > cold. > > > > There > > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream in > a > > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > > airplane > > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated was > > the > > > > >> fact > > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > > >> > > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. > Adolfo > > > > >> Garcia > > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you can > > say > > > > "My > > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that it > > was > > > > >> time > > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was > time > > > for > > > > >> breakfast".? Mental processes are one thing, and material > processes > > > are > > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > > reflect > > > > >> this > > > > >> knowledge. > > > > >> > > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > > >> > > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > > >> > > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > > >> > > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett > thinks > > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has > understood > > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are > actually > > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > > >> > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > David > > > > >> > > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel their > > > pain? > > > > >> and > > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson > seems > > to > > > > >> feel > > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they poke > > > their > > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to have > > any > > > > >> words > > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and such a > > > way, > > > > >> you > > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the expression > > > > straight > > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. As > > > Alan > > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed to > a > > > cow > > > > in > > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > > called?) > > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Julian > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on > behalf > > of > > > > >> David > > > > >> > Kellogg" > > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? ? All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > > brain > > > > >> > differently > > > > >> >? ? than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to MRI > > > scans > > > > >> or > > > > >> >? ? computerized tomography. In fact these can and do distinguish > > > > >> between > > > > >> > verbs > > > > >> >? ? of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky > did > > > > have > > > > >> > access > > > > >> >? ? to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > > words > > > of > > > > >> > another > > > > >> >? ? person. I can say, for example: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with Marxism". > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with Marxism." > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as I > > can > > > > >> read > > > > >> >? ? Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > > the > > > > >> > actions or > > > > >> >? ? the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, for > > > > >> example: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > > thought a > > > > >> > word > > > > >> >? ? meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > > cold." > > > > >> This > > > > >> > is > > > > >> >? ? originally a line from the revolutionary opera "Shajiabang", > > > > about a > > > > >> > woman > > > > >> >? ? who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > > children > > > > >> are > > > > >> >? ? acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > > officer; > > > > >> they > > > > >> >? ? accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > > all > > > > >> people > > > > >> > who > > > > >> >? ? come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they go, > > > > their > > > > >> > tea is > > > > >> >? ? cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the toothache > > of > > > > >> another > > > > >> >? ? person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > > words. > > > > >> >? ? Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > > >> > "immediately", > > > > >> >? ? because thoughts and words have already made the dialectical > > > > >> leap--the > > > > >> > leap > > > > >> >? ? from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? David Kellogg > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some people > > > > >> >? ? > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to be > > > > >> >? ? > the key category. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is activity > > > > >> >? ? > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > > >> >? ? > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > > >> >? ? > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > > >> >? ? > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > > >> >? ? > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > > >> >? ? > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision > of > > > > >> >? ? > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > > >> >? ? > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > > >> >? ? > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > > >> >? ? > this move. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa > does > > > > >> >? ? > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > Andy > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > > >> >? ? > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > > > > >> >? ? > Andy Blunden > > > > >> >? ? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > >> >? ? > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > > >> >? ? > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > > myself I > > > > >> > have > > > > >> >? ? > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > > sense) > > > > >> is a > > > > >> >? ? > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > -----Original Message----- > > > > >> >? ? > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > > >> >? ? > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > > >> >? ? > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > > >> >? ? > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; > > > Mike > > > > >> > Cole; > > > > >> >? ? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > >> >? ? > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > oriented > > > > >> > activity > > > > >> >? ? > and communication > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Dear Alfredo, > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You definitely > > > > >> noticed > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and > developed > > > > >> > technologies, > > > > >> >? ? > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > > >> exploiters, > > > > >> > between > > > > >> >? ? > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > > opposite > > > > >> > between > > > > >> >? ? > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > > always > > > > >> been > > > > >> > a > > > > >> >? ? > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > > cosmopolitan > > > > >> class. > > > > >> >? ? > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > > fight > > > > >> and > > > > >> > to kill > > > > >> >? ? > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > > cooperate > > > > >> > with > > > > >> >? ? > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to > receive > > > > >> > dividends from > > > > >> >? ? > their enterprises located on the territory of their > "enemy." > > > > Today > > > > >> > Putin's > > > > >> >? ? > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > > their > > > > >> > capitals to > > > > >> >? ? > this West, buy property there, send their children to study > > > > there > > > > >> > and go > > > > >> >? ? > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > > Poroshenko > > > > >> - > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > president of the country that was subje > > > > >> >? ? > >? cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > > chocolate > > > > >> >? ? > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > > >> >? ? > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > > States, > > > > the > > > > >> > policy > > > > >> >? ? > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > > each > > > > >> other > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > working people of different ethnic groups and confessions, > > on > > > > >> their > > > > >> >? ? > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > > >> creatures. > > > > >> >? ? > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity incited > > by > > > > the > > > > >> > ruling > > > > >> >? ? > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > > working > > > > >> > people > > > > >> >? ? > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > > public > > > > >> >? ? > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > > constructed > > > > >> > allegedly on > > > > >> >? ? > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred years > > > ago, > > > > >> the > > > > >> >? ? > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, the > > > same > > > > >> task > > > > >> > is > > > > >> >? ? > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > > so-called > > > > >> > "cultural" > > > > >> >? ? > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > > biological > > > > >> > differences > > > > >> >? ? > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > > >> >? ? > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, but > > > also > > > > >> to > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > "psychology of culture". > > > > >> >? ? > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only in > > > words > > > > >> but > > > > >> > also > > > > >> >? ? > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is > not > > > the > > > > >> > ability of > > > > >> >? ? > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of > words, > > > but > > > > >> to > > > > >> > be > > > > >> >? ? > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects > > of > > > > >> labor. > > > > >> >? ? > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > > believed > > > > >> > that the > > > > >> >? ? > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is > > > > just a > > > > >> > verbal > > > > >> >? ? > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver to > > > us, > > > > >> then > > > > >> > any > > > > >> >? ? > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > > seem > > > > to > > > > >> us > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant > doing > > > his > > > > >> own > > > > >> > work, > > > > >> >? ? > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will > > > look > > > > >> > something > > > > >> >? ? > inferior. > > > > >> >? ? > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of Vygotsky's > > > > >> theory, > > > > >> > open > > > > >> >? ? > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a > > > > >> > transition > > > > >> >? ? > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that > is > > > > >> capable > > > > >> > of > > > > >> >? ? > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This > > > > >> implies > > > > >> > that > > > > >> >? ? > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > > different > > > > >> > way in > > > > >> >? ? > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This > qualitative > > > > >> > difference is > > > > >> >? ? > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of > reality. > > > > >> > Therefore, > > > > >> >? ? > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in the > > > true > > > > >> > sense of > > > > >> >? ? > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > > inseparable > > > > >> part > > > > >> > of the > > > > >> >? ? > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > > the > > > > >> domain > > > > >> > of > > > > >> >? ? > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an empty > > > > sound. > > > > >> A > > > > >> > word > > > > >> >? ? > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of speech. > > One > > > > >> > cannot say > > > > >> >? ? > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of the > > > word > > > > >> > taken > > > > >> >? ? > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It is > > > both > > > > at > > > > >> > one and > > > > >> >? ? > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > > >> >? ? > >? nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be that > > of > > > > >> > semantic > > > > >> >? ? > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > > meaningful > > > > >> > aspect of > > > > >> >? ? > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will > produce > > > > >> answers > > > > >> > to > > > > >> >? ? > our questions concerning the relationship between thinking > > and > > > > >> speech > > > > >> >? ? > because this relationship is already contained in the unit > > of > > > > >> > analysis. In > > > > >> >? ? > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > > unit, > > > > we > > > > >> > will > > > > >> >? ? > come to understand a great deal that is of direct relevance > > to > > > > the > > > > >> > problem > > > > >> >? ? > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the nature > > of > > > > >> verbal > > > > >> >? ? > thinking." > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not > the > > > > >> > slightest > > > > >> >? ? > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > > attempt > > > > to > > > > >> > combine > > > > >> >? ? > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with the > > > > school > > > > >> > textbook > > > > >> >? ? > of formal logic. > > > > >> >? ? > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > > detailed > > > > >> >? ? > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this > analysis > > > in > > > > >> the > > > > >> > very > > > > >> >? ? > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > > >> assertion > > > > >> > that > > > > >> >? ? > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a maximally > > > > >> aphoristic > > > > >> >? ? > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > > >> > materialists, the > > > > >> >? ? > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is the > > > > >> > instrument of > > > > >> >? ? > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > > generalization > > > > >> is > > > > >> > not a > > > > >> >? ? > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > > >> > generalizing the > > > > >> >? ? > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means of > > > > >> > analyzing all > > > > >> >? ? > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > > optics > > > > of > > > > >> >? ? > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > > >> ideality.) > > > > >> >? ? > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results > of > > > > >> Luria's > > > > >> > trip > > > > >> >? ? > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > > >> illiterate > > > > >> >? ? > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > > >> >? ? > >? r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe and > > > > melon > > > > >> are > > > > >> >? ? > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > > formal > > > > >> > logical > > > > >> >? ? > operations with words denoting these things, is declared a > > > > >> primitive > > > > >> >? ? > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap > who > > > > knows > > > > >> > how to > > > > >> >? ? > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > > the > > > > >> melon > > > > >> > only > > > > >> >? ? > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is declared > > > the > > > > >> > bearer of > > > > >> >? ? > scientific consciousness. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > > come > > > > to > > > > >> the > > > > >> >? ? > value of instruments of labor, not only for the > distribution > > > of > > > > >> > material > > > > >> >? ? > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > > wealth, > > > > for > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > distribution of the ability to think, for the distribution > > of > > > > >> > culture. Only > > > > >> >? ? > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > > culture > > > as > > > > >> the > > > > >> >? ? > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > > accumulated > > > > >> by > > > > >> >? ? > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of such > > > based > > > > >> on > > > > >> > idea of > > > > >> >? ? > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > > able > > > to > > > > >> get > > > > >> > out of > > > > >> >? ? > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > > arbitrariness. > > > > >> >? ? > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > > set > > > > the > > > > >> > task of > > > > >> >? ? > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > > considered > > > > that > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > first real step in this direction was made by his friend > and > > > > >> student > > > > >> > AN > > > > >> >? ? > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > > >> >? ? > > Sasha > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > >? ? ? ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > >> >? ? > >? ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> > >; > > > > >> >? ? > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > > >; > > > > >> > Martin > > > > >> >? ? > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? < > > > > >> >? ? > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > > >> >? ? > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > > >> >? ? > >? ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > > >> >? ? > >? ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > > >> activity > > > > >> > and > > > > >> >? ? > communication > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > > >> >? ? > Dear Sasha, all, > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > > issues > > > > at > > > > >> > home > > > > >> >? ? > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have limited > > > > >> > participation > > > > >> >? ? > anywhere else than home life. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like a > > > > >> concrete > > > > >> > aspect > > > > >> >? ? > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning of > > > this > > > > >> >? ? > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical (real) > > > > >> relevance > > > > >> > to us > > > > >> >? ? > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is this > > > > >> 'real,' > > > > >> > and is > > > > >> >? ? > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > > addressing > > > > >> any > > > > >> > and > > > > >> >? ? > everyone) > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Alfredo > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > > >> >? ? > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > > >> >? ? > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Alfredo > > > > Jornet > > > > >> > Gil; > > > > >> >? ? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > >> >? ? > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > oriented > > > > >> > activity > > > > >> >? ? > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going > to > > > > >> discuss > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > > most > > > > >> > mature work. > > > > >> >? ? > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > > >> "Dialectics > > > > >> > of the > > > > >> >? ? > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am aware > > > that > > > > >> > there is a > > > > >> >? ? > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > > >> adequately > > > > >> >? ? > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > > Marx's > > > > >> > theory was > > > > >> >? ? > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > > better > > > > to > > > > >> > study > > > > >> >? ? > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of ?Das > > > > >> Kapital?. > > > > >> > Along > > > > >> >? ? > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that the > > > > >> > discussion of > > > > >> >? ? > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > > themes. > > > > I > > > > >> > think > > > > >> >? ? > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > > "steps", > > > > >> but > > > > >> >? ? > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that after > > > that > > > > >> try > > > > >> > to rise > > > > >> >? ? > from it to the seco > > > > >> >? ? > >? nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young age, > > it > > > > >> seems > > > > >> > to me > > > > >> >? ? > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > > discussion > > > > of > > > > >> the > > > > >> >? ? > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > > preparation > > > to > > > > >> > thinking, > > > > >> >? ? > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method can > > not > > > > be > > > > >> > studied > > > > >> >? ? > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > > Perhaps > > > > >> this > > > > >> > seems > > > > >> >? ? > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are not > > > > >> familiar > > > > >> > with > > > > >> >? ? > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > > >> discussing > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > > continue > > > > >> to > > > > >> > carry > > > > >> >? ? > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of the > > > term > > > > >> > activity. > > > > >> >? ? > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for translators > > > from > > > > >> > Russian (or > > > > >> >? ? > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > > very > > > > >> > informative. > > > > >> >? ? > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden completely > > > > >> exhausted > > > > >> > this > > > > >> >? ? > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > > discuss > > > > >> the > > > > >> >? ? > question: what is the justificati > > > > >> >? ? > >? on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > > Where, > > > > >> in > > > > >> > any > > > > >> >? ? > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of > activity, > > > not > > > > >> > just uses > > > > >> >? ? > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which it > > is > > > > >> used > > > > >> >? ? > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > > >> activities) of > > > > >> >? ? > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > > >> functions?, > > > > >> > ?speech > > > > >> >? ? > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > > >> > personality?- all > > > > >> >? ? > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, with > > > > Spinoza > > > > >> > and > > > > >> >? ? > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > > >> discussing > > > > >> > the > > > > >> >? ? > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > > Vygotsky > > > > >> > and > > > > >> >? ? > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > > necessary > > > > to > > > > >> > try to > > > > >> >? ? > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, proceeding > > > from > > > > >> THE > > > > >> > REAL > > > > >> >? ? > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is > impossible > > > to > > > > >> > understand > > > > >> >? ? > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > > such > > > > >> > theoretical > > > > >> >? ? > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > > >> introduces a > > > > >> >? ? > category of object-oriented a > > > > >> >? ? > >? ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little use > > > for > > > > >> > solving > > > > >> >? ? > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never said > > > ?B?. > > > > >> > Having > > > > >> >? ? > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis > of > > > the > > > > >> >? ? > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not go > > > > further > > > > >> > failing > > > > >> >? ? > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract category.Once > > > > again, > > > > >> > from > > > > >> >? ? > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > > >> >? ? > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological Theory > > of > > > > >> > Activity" we > > > > >> >? ? > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > > >> fundamentally > > > > >> > new > > > > >> >? ? > approaches to education, based on dialectical, > revolutionary > > > > >> method > > > > >> > of > > > > >> >? ? > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary to > > > begin > > > > >> not > > > > >> > so > > > > >> >? ? > much - to learn to listen to each other... > > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > > >> >? ? > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > >> >? ? > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > > >> >? ? > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > activity > > > > >> and > > > > >> >? ? > communication > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. My > > > > point > > > > >> is > > > > >> > that > > > > >> >? ? > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s analysis, > > > and > > > > >> > about its > > > > >> >? ? > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order of > > > the > > > > >> > treatment > > > > >> >? ? > in Capital. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Martin > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > ablunden@mira.net > > > > >> > > > > >> >? ? > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3. > > htm > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > >? Of course the method of presentation must differ in form > > > > >> >? ? > >? from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the > > > > >> >? ? > >? material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > > >> >? ? > >? development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > > >> >? ? > >? after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > > >> >? ? > >? adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > > >> >? ? > >? the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > > >> >? ? > >? in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a > > > > >> >? ? > >? mere a priori construction. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Andy > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > > > >> >? ? > > Andy Blunden > > > > >> >? ? > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > >> >? ? > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > > >> >? ? > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the details > > of > > > > >> Marx?s > > > > >> >? ? > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > > Grundrisse. > > > > The > > > > >> > two have > > > > >> >? ? > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the order > > of > > > > >> > presentation > > > > >> >? ? > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Martin > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > From alexander.surmava@yahoo.com Tue Nov 7 14:13:22 2017 From: alexander.surmava@yahoo.com (Alexander Surmava) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 22:13:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Object oriented activity and communication References: <887115735.1294461.1510092802282.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <887115735.1294461.1510092802282@mail.yahoo.com> | ??????? ???? | Dear Mike | | ??????? ?????? ? ?????, ? ???? ?????? ??????????. | may I start from the end, from my evaluation of LSV | | ? ?????????? ?? ???????? ? ???, ??? ??? ????????? ? ???? ????? ?????????? ?????? ?loosy?. ? ????????????? ?? ?????? ?? ???????? ? ???, ? ????????????? ?? ??????, ??? ??? ??????? ????????? ??, ? ??? ?? ?????? ? ??????? ???????????? ??????????. ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????, ??? ? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?????????? ?????????, ? ?? ??? ?????, ??? ? ???????????????? ? ???? ????????. (??? ???????, ? ???????? ? ????????????????, ?????????? ??? ?????????? ??????????????, ??? ???-?? ????? ?????? ? ??????????????.) | I definitely can?t agree that my attitude to Vygotsky can be defined as ?loosy?. I do disagree with LSV in many aspects, I really do not think that he managed to accomplish his dreame ?? to create a Marxist psychology. But it does not follow from this that I do not respect him as a serious theorist, and even more so, that I treat him disrespectfully. (All the dictionaries with which I consulted define this English adjective as something very harsh and offensive.) | | ??, ? ??????????? ?????? ? ???????????? ? ????? ??????????. ?? ??? ?????????? ???????????, ???? ?????????? ? ??? ?????????????? ???????? ??? ? ???????? ????????, ? ?? ??? ? ?????????? ????????? ??????????. ???? ?????? ????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? ? ????????????? ?????? ?????-??????????? ????????. ?? ??? ?? ???????? ???? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????. ???? ?????? ? ???????????? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ?????, ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ? ???????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????? ?? ?????????? ??????? ????????????. ??????, ??? ????????? ???? ?? ??????? ? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??????????? ???? ????????????? ?????? ?????????? ??? ?loosy?, ????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ? ???? ?? ???? ????????? ??????, ? ?????, ??? ?????? ? ?????? ??????. ?????????????? ????????? ??????????? ?? ??? ???????? ??????? ??????, ??????? ?????????? ????? ? ???????????? ????????, ?? ?????????, ??????? ????? ? ??????? ???????????? ????????? ????????????? ?????? ?????????? ?????. | Yes, I am stating the mistakes and contradictions in Vygotsky's ideas. But this is quite natural if we refer to his theoretical heritage as a scientific heritage, and not as a sacred principles of dogma. Rene Descartes became hopelessly confused in the contradictions of his psycho-physical dualism. But this does not cancel the fact that it was one of the greatest thinkers of the Modernity. Even the errors and contradictions of this thinker served the development of thought, giving food to Spinoza's thinking and allowing the latter to find a solution to one of the greatest riddles of the Humankind. I am sure that the attitude of Spinoza to Descartes with all his sharply critical spirit can not be defined in principle as "loosy", nor can it be defined as the "loosy" attitude of Hegel to Kant, or of Marx to Hegel. Contemptuous attitude is deserved not by these genuinely great figures, who made an invaluable contribution to human culture, but the characters that Marx and Engels despisedly called the professorial form of degeneration of thought. | | ????????? ?????????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ? ??????? ??????????, ????????????? ?????? ???????????? ???????? ? ?????? ?????????? ????????. ?? ???? ?? ????????? a priori ????????, ??? ???????????? ?? ????????????? ???????? ???????????? ????? ??? ? ???????? ????????? ??????? ??????????????? ?????????? ????????? ??????? ???????????? ???????????? ? ???????? ? ??? ??? ??????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ? ????????? ?? ???????? ??? ????????. ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????????????? ???????? ???????????? ????? ??????????? ? ??????? ????? ? ???????????? ???????????? ?????. ?? ????? ?? ???????????? ??? ?????? ?? ??????, ??? ????? ?????? ? ??? ????????????? ???????? ?????????? ????????. ???????? ???? ?? ??????? ? ??? ???? ??????. | Undoubtedly Vygotsky is a very significant figure in the history of psychology, deserving the closest attention and the most serious study. But it would be erroneous to assume a priori that the theoretical principles that he proposed represent once and for all solutions to the fundamental difficulties in understanding the nature of human activity and consciousness, and that today we only need to internalize and apply these principles. Much of his theoretical heritage represents an undeniable and weighty contribution to the treasury of human thought. But looking from today, one can not help but see that much of his theoretical heritage is hopelessly outdated. To distinguish one from another is our task. | | ????? ????? ? ??? ?????????? ???????, ???????????? ? ???????????? ?????????-???????????? ???????????????, ???????, ??????? ?????????? ? ???????????. ??? ??????? ????????, ??? ??? ???????? ????????? ??? ?????????? ? ????????? ????????? ???????????? ?????????, ???????????????? ? ???? ????? ????????? 1917 ???? ? ?? ???????? ??????????????, ??????? ???????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ? ????????? ???????? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? 1937-38 ??. ??????? ?????????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ? ????????????????, ??????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ? ??????? ?? ????????? ????? ????? ?????????? ????? ??????????. ??????? ???? ?? ?????????????, ??????? ??????? ?.?.????????? ??? ??????????????? ?????????????? ??????????, ????????, ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ????? ??????????? ?.?.??????????, ? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??????????, ?.?.???????? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ????????? ? ?????????? ?????????-????????? ????????? ? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ? ????? ??????????????????, ?????????????? ??????????. | Any science is a social process taking place in certain cultural and historical circumstances, a process that is impossible in isolation. There is no doubt that as a theorist Vygotsky could take place and took place thanks to the social atmosphere prevailing in the USSR after the revolution of 1917 and before a creeping counterrevolution that began soon after Lenin's death and the final chord of which was the Great Terror of 1937-38. Vygotsky's phenomenon was possible thanks to the circle of his friends and like-minded people whom he gathered around himself and which he united by the common task of building a new psychology. Therefore, it would be unfair to note the merits of AN Leontiev as the founder of the psychological theory of activity, and to forget that as a researcher he formed himself in the close circle of LS Vygotsky's disciples, and that in the event that fate did not bring him together with Vygotsky AN, Leontiev had good chances to remain a student and graduate student of the idealist psychologist Chelpanov and not even come close to the ideas of materialistic, activity-based psychology. | | ???????, ????????? ? ???, ??? ???????? ????????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????????, ??? ?????????-????????? ? ??? ?????????? ?????????????? ??????????. ???????? ???? ? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??????? ??????, ?? ????? ???????????? ???????. ?? ???, ??? ??? ?.?.????????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???????????? ???????? ????????? ?????????? ?.?.???????? ? ?.?.???????. (? ?? ?????? ?????, ????? ????? ??????????? ????????? ?? ???? ??????? ? ?????????. ??, ???? ? ???? ?????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ???? ????? :-) ) ????????, ??? ?????????????? ?????????????? ??????????????? ?????? ???????????? ??? ???????? ???????? ???? ?????????????? ? ???????? ????????????? ???????????? ?? ????? ?????? ? ????????. ??? ??????? ?? ???? ????????????? ??????? ? ???????? ???? ???????? ??????? ?? ?????????? ??? ?? ?? ?????????, ??????? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ? ??????. ???????, ??????, ?? ??? ? ?? ??????????? ??? ????? ???? ???????????? ??????, ?????????? ??? ? 30-? ???? ? ??????? ???????? ?? ???????? ????????????, ??????????? ??? ? ?.?.?????????. | Finally, with regard to the erroneous evaluation of Vygotsky as a Marxist psychologist and as the founder of activity-based psychology. A decisive role in this assessment was played not by scientific but purely political reasons. On the fact that LS Vygotsky already laid the foundations of the theory of activity, AN Leontiev and VV Davydov insisted particularly energetically. (I would give a lot to be able to argue about this with Davydov today, but alas ... with this conversation I'll have to wait a little :-)) Leontiev, as the actual founder of the psychological theory of activity, was forced to hide his substantial and profound theoretical contradictions with his friend and teacher. For to speak about these contradictions openly in the conditions of the USSR meant to inform the authorities on Vygotsky as not a Marxist and thereby lose face before the whole circle of colleagues and friends. Therefore, by the way, he never published his polemical article, written back in the 1930s, and never publicly discussed the contradictions that separated him from LS Vygotsky. | | ? ???????? ???? ??? ???????????? ??????? ?????????? ??????, ? ?????? ????? ????? ????????? ?? ????????????? ???????? ??? ?? ??????????????, ? ??????????, ??? ?????????????, ? ?? ??? ????????. ????, ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ???????, ??????????? ????????? ??????, ? ?? ????? ???????, ??????? ??????????? ????????????? ???????? ? ?????????????? ????????????? ?? ??? ???????? ??????? ????????. ? ??????????? ??????? ???, ?????? ?? ?????????, ??????? ??? ?????????? ?????????????? ??????? ??????, ?? ????????? ???????????? ??????, ???????????? ?????????. | With the collapse of the Soviet Union, these political reasons have certainly disappeared, and therefore it's time to look at the theoretical legacy of LSV not apologetically, but critically. If, of course, we think of ourselves as researchers who are called upon to develop a theory, not a hobby group, a circle of admirers of a truly glorious and charismatic person from a fairly long past. And try to do this based on the principles that LSV absolutely unequivocally recognized as his own, from the principles of Marxist theory, of Marxist philosophy. | | ? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?????????????? ??????. ?????? ?? ?? ????????? ?? ???????? ???????????? ?????? ? ??? ????, ? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?.?.??????????, ??? ?? ??????? ????????? ?? ???????? ????? ?????????, ????? ???????????? ????????? ?????????. ? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????????? ???????? ????????????? ????????, ????????? ??? ???????? ?????????????? ? ????????????. ?? ???? ?????? ??????????? ????????????? ???? ???? ????????, ?? ???????????? ???? ???????? ? ????????????? ?????? (???????) ?.?.?????????, ??????????? ??????? ???? ???????????? ? ??????? ??? ????? ? ?????? ??????????? ??????? ???????, ??? ??????????? ??????? ? ??????? ?????????. ????? ??????, ?? ???????????? ????????????? ???? ?????????? ?? ? ??????????????? ? ?????????, ??????? ???? ?????????????? ? 20-? ? ?????? 30-? ????? ???????? ????, ?? ? ???????????, ???????? ??????????. ????? ???????? ?????? ???????????????? ??? ????????, ??????????? ?????????? ?? ????????????? ????????????? ????, ???????? ?? ?????? ????? ?.?.?????????. | And here we immediately face a fundamental problem. Should we rely on the principles of Marxist logic in the form in which they were known to LS Vygotsky himself, or do we must rely on the principles of a more developed, more profound understanding of Marxism. In general, this dilemma is the essence of the theoretical problem known as the problem of "historical and logical". Not having the opportunity to retell the essence of this problem, we redirect all comers to the classical text (texts) of E.Ilienkov devoted to the analysis of this alternative and make our choice in favor of a logical method of criticism as the only scientifically correct one. In other words, we compare Vygotsky's theoretical ideas not with the notions of Marxism that were prevalent in the 1920s and early 30s of the last century, but with modern, developed Marxism. To avoid any ambiguity under developed, modern Marxism, we mean theoretical ideas developed on the basis of works by EV Ilyenkov. | | ??????, ?????? ???????????. ????????, ???????, ?? ??, ??? ?.?.????????? ???????? ??? ???????????. ?????? ???????, ??? ?????????????? ?????? ???????? ?? ?????? ????????? ?? ?????????? ??????? ? ????????, - ????? ??, - ?? ? ????????? ?? ???????? ? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ???????, ??? ???????? ???????? ???????????????? ? ???????? ??????????? ?????, ??? ???????????????? ?????????. | We, however, have become too preoccupied with the prefaces. Let us finally look at what Vygotsky understands as "thinking." He claims that ?It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a transition from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that is capable of sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This implies that reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively different way in thinking than it is in immediate sensation?. | | ?? ?????????? ????? ??????, ??? ??? ????????, ???????? ???? ?????????????, ??? ???????? ???????? ??? ????????????? ??????????? ???????????????? ? ????????. ?????? ????? ????????? ???, ???????????, ?????? ?????????. ??? ??? ?????????? ????? ???????????, ??????? ? ?????????? ? ????????? ? ?????? ????????? ? ???????. ?????????, ?????? ????? ??????????? ? ?????? ??????????. ??? ?? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????? ??? ?????????, ?? ??????????, ??? ???????? ? ?? ???????????? ????? ?????????. ????? ????, ??? ???????? ?? ??????, ?? ???????? ????? ?????????. ??????? ?? ????? ???????, ? ??? ????????, ?? ?????? ?????????, ??? ?? ????? ???-?? ??? ??????????. ?? ???? ?????????? ??? ??????? ??? ??????????? ?????? ????? ????????? ? ?????????? ? ??????????. ? ??????? ???????, ??? ??? ?????? ?????????? ??? (?? ????) ??????????????? ????????? ? ????????? ??? ???? ??????????, ??????????? ? ?????????, ???? ????????. ? ??, ? ?????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????? ? ?? ????????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???????????????? ???????, ??? ????????????. ?????????? ??? ? ????????? ????????? ????????? ???????, ??? ??????????? ??????????, ?????? ??? ? ?????????. ???? ?????? ? ???, ??? ? ????????? ?????????, ? ?? ??? ????? ??????????????? ????????? ????? ?????? ?? ???????????? ???????????????, ??? ??????????????? ????????? ??????? ????????. | From Vygotsky's words one can understand that as a theorist who wanted to be a materialist, he understood thinking as a "reflection" of reality in consciousness. Against this interpretation, we naturally have nothing to say. Any materialist, beginning with Anaxagoras and Democritus and ending with Feirbach and Marx, will agree with this statement. But let's take a closer look at the details of what he said. LSV does not just say that thinking is a reflection, but argues that thinking is not the only form of reflection. Moreover, that thinking is not the first, not the original form of reflection. At first we feel something, and this sensation, not being a thinking, nevertheless something already "reflects". There are at least two qualitatively different forms of reflection - "sensation" and "thinking". In parentheses, note that this strongly resembles two (of three) Aristotelian entelechies - the animal, the sensing soul (entelechy) and the thinking soul (entelechy). Both of them possess qualitative originality and are not derived from each other without a "dialectical leap," without contradiction. This is also reminiscent of the well-known Leninist definition of matter, as an objective reality given to us in sensations. The only trouble is that both Lenin's definition, and even more so Aristotelian entelechies are very far from Marx's dialectical, or activity-based understanding of the nature of cognition. | | ????? ??? ?????????? ????????????-???????, ??????? ? ????????????? ?????? ????????????, ????????????? ?????????. ?? ? ????? ?????? ???????? ??? ??????, ???? ? ????????? ???? ?????? ????????????. ???, ??????????, ?? ??????, ??? ????? ? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ????????? ?????????, ? ??? ?????????? ?????? ???????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ????????? ?.?.????????-?????? ?? ???????? ????????? ???? ??????????, ???? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????. ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??????, ??? ??? ? ?????? ? ?????????, ??? ? ? ?????? ? ??????? ???? ?? ?????????? ???? ????????????? ?????????, ?????????? ? ??????????? ?? ?????????????? ????, ? ?????? ?????? ?????, ? ???????? ?? ????????????? ?????. ????? ???, ?????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ????? ??????????? ??????????? ????? ????? ????????????????. ????? ???????? ?????? ????? ????????, ??????? ?????? ????????????? ? ??????? ??? ??????????? ?????????? ???????????, ? ???????? ? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ???????????? ?????????, ??? ??????? ????????? ????????? ? ?? ?????? ????????? ?????? ?? ?? ?????????????? ??. ??? ??? ???????, ??? ? ?????? ???? ????????? ? ? ?????????????? ???????? ?????? ? ??????, ? ? ?????????????? ???????? ???, ??? ? ???. | Lenin was a brilliant revolutionary practitioner, a man with a fantastically precise political, revolutionary intuition. But in the realm of theory the significance of his work was greatly exaggerated during the Soviet years. This, of course, does not mean that there were deeper theorists of Marxism next to Lenin, and we just need to replace on our shelves the Complete Works of VI Ulyanov-Lenin for the collection of works by Rosa Luxemburg, Lev Trotsky or Antonio Gramsci. This means that both in the case of Vygotsky, and in the case of Lenin, one must worship these wonderful personalities, proceed to the continuation of their revolutionary cause, and therefore, above all, to the development of their revolutionary thought. Meanwhile, any development is possible only through a critical overcoming of the thought of our predecessors. The most reliable way to kill Marxism, which was widely practiced in the countries of the so-called "real socialism," and to which many "leftist" political activists are still not alien, is to make the classics of Marxism and their texts the object of the cult, but not to cultivate them. Once again, this fully applies to the theoretical legacy of Marx and Lenin, and to the theoretical legacy of LSV, ANL and EVI. | | ????????, ?????? ? ????????? ????????? ????????. ?????? ?????, ???, ???? ?? ????????? ? ??????????? ???????? ? ?????????????, ?? ?????????, ??? ???????? ????????? ???????? ?????? ???????????. ?? ???? ????? ??? ??, ??? ??????????? ??? ????????? ?? ??????????? ?.?.?????????? ? ?.?.?????????. ? ??? ?????????? ??????????? ?????????, ?? ??????????? ??????????, ???????, ?????? ? ??? ???? ?? ?????????. ? ?.?.?????????? ??? ???????. ??? ???, ??? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ? ??????????????? ????????? ????????, ? ????? ?????? ?????????? ? ???????????? ?.?.???????? ???? ????????? ??????, ?????????????? ????????????? ? ????????. ?? ? ??????? ?? ?.?.?????????? ? ?????? ?.?.????????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?????????????? ??????????????. | Let us return, however, to Vygotsky's understanding of thinking. Let's say right away that if we turn to philosophical dictionaries and encyclopedias, we will find that Vygotsky understands thinking quite traditionally. That is, in the same way as practically all psychologists except NA Bernshtein and EV Ilenkov. And as the absolute majority of philosophers, with the exception of Anaxagoras, Spinoza, Marx and all the same Ilyenkov. With AN Leontiev everything is more complicated. While he took a big step towards an activity-based understanding of thinking, in his article "Thinking" in the encyclopedia, AN Leontiev also repeats old, sensationalist ideas about thinking. But unlike LS Vygotsky, AN Leontiev's article has at least an attempt to go beyond the old paradigm to activity-based ideas. | | ??????????? ??????????? ?????????, ? ?????????? ?? ??? ? ?? ???????, ???????? ???????? ?????? ?????????????? ? ??? ????? ?????????? ??????????? ???????, ???????????? ? ???????? ??? ??????? ????????, ??? ????? ?????????? ???????. ??? ???? ?????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ????????, ???? ??????? ???? ?? ????????. ?? ??????? ???????? ??????? ??? ?? ??????????? ???????????? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ????????? ? ??????????????. ????????????, ???? ????? ????????????? ? ??????, ??? ??? ????????? ??????????? ?????????????. ?????? ?? ??????? ??????, ??????? ??????????????? ?? ??? ????. | The overwhelming majority of philosophers, psychologists, we already do not speak, understands thinking purely psychologically - as some abstract psychic process that occurs in the mind or psyche of the individual, as a purely mental phenomenon. The question of how the consciousness or the psyche is even possible is not even posed. From the presence of consciousness proceed as from an empirically valid fact given to us "in sensation" and self-observation. The only thing the researchers want is to understand how this magical ability functions. Rather not so much to understand, how much to dream up on this topic. | | ????? ???, ??????? ????????? ????????, ??????? ??? ???????? (? ?????? ????????? ??? ??? ??????? ?????????? ???????????) ???????????? ?????? ????? ???????????? ????????????? ????? ????????. | Meanwhile, the scientific understanding of the mind, the psyche or thinking (in this respect, all these terms are quite equivalent) involves first and foremost the need to study the necessity of this phenomenon. | | ?????? ???????????? ????????, ?????????? ?????????? ? ???, ??? ???????? (????????, ???????) ???????? ??????????, ???????????? ??? ????????. | Any unbiased theoretician will agree that consciousness (thinking, psyche) reflects reality existing outside consciousness. | | ?? ??? ????? | But for what? | | ??? ????, ????? ???? ?????????? ? ????????? ??????? ??? ????????? ??? ????????? ???????? ???? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????-?? ????????, ??? ??????????? ????????? ?????????, ?????? ?????? ????????? ? ????? ?????????? ???????????? | In order to give psychologists and philosophers an object for study? Or is the reflection of the external world necessary for a person for something more than the possibility of writing treatises, lecturing students and defending doctoral dissertations? | | ????????? ????? ?? ?????????. ?????????? ?? ???????, ??? ????????, ???? ?? ???? ?? ????????? ??????? ????, ??? ???????? ?????????, ????????? ??? ????????? | Let's try to go from the opposite. Imagine for a moment what would happen if we would lose at least briefly what is called consciousness, thinking or mentality? | | ????? ???????? ????????. ?? ?????, ? ????? ????? ?????. ??? ??? ????, ????? ????, ?????????? ???? ??????????, ????????? ?????? ? ???????? ???? ????? ? ????, ??????? ? ????? ???? ??? ? ??????????? ????????????. ? ??? ????, ????? ???? ?? ?????? ? ?????? ? ????? ?? ???????????? ?????????? ????? ????????? ????????????? ?. ? ????? ? ???????????? ??????? ???, ? ?? ?????????? ? ????????? ???????????? ????. | The answer is trivial. We will die, and we will die very soon. For in order to live, it is necessary to be active, it is necessary to seek and find food and drink, whether in the wild forest or in your own refrigerator. And in order to at least get up from the couch and reach the fridge you need to have some idea of a. on the form and disposition of external bodies, and on the structure and state of one's own body. | | ???? ?? ???-?? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ??? ?????????? ????????? ????. ??????????? ???????? ? ???? ???????, ????? ?? ?????????? ??????, ??? ????? ???? ? ???????? ?????? ???? ?? ? ???????????? ? ?????????? ? ???? ????? ??????????, ??????? ???????? ?? ????????????????? ????? ??????????????, ??????????????? ? ?????????? ?????????? ????????, ?? ???????? ????????, ???????? ?????????????????? ????? ? ?????? ? ????? ? ???????????? ?????? ???, ?????? ????????. | It is unlikely that anyone will seriously challenge these very obvious things. Disagreements will begin from the moment when we try to understand how such a miracle - expedient, not automatic action of one body in accordance with the form and disposition of other bodies is possible at all. ? | | ????? ????????? ???????? ?????????????? ? ???????? ???????????? ? ???? ? ????????????? ?????????? ????????????????, ? ????? ???????????? ???????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????????????. ?????? ?????????????, ???????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ?? ?????? ?????????????, ??? ?????????????, ??? ?????????? ???????? ???? ??????-?????????? ???????????? ????????, ????????????? ?????? ?? ?????????, ?????????? ? ????? ???? ???????????. ??? ??????????? ???????? ??????????? ???????????? ? ?.?.??????. ? ???? ?? ?????? ? ??????? ???????? ??????????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????. ????????????? ??????????? ?????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????, ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ???????????? ? ???? ????? ??????????? ????????????? ? ???? ??????????? ?? ??????????? ???????????, ? ?????? ??????, ??????? ? ???????????? ????????? ??????, ??? ? ????????? ?????????????? ???????? ?????????? ????????? ?????? ????????. ????? ??????, ? ? ???????, ? ? ?????????????, ? ? ???????? ??????????? ??? ?????????? ??????, ????????? ????????? ? ???? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ??????????????? ????. | If we exclude the apparently irrational appealing to God and the divine providence of pseudo-explanation, there are not so many possibilities left for us. The first "possibility", the slightest analysis of which shows its complete impossibility, is the assumption that objective action is a stimulus-reactive mechanical action that takes place strictly according to a program inherent in the living body genetically. This opportunity was tried by behaviorists and IP Pavlov. The overwhelming majority of physiologists try to theorize in the same logic today. The theoretical insignificance of such an "explanation" is quite obvious, if only from the fact that his adepts secretly drag into him the most primitive irrationalism in the form of arguments about abstract randomness, about blind trials, mistakes and reinforcement by chance luck, as a mechanism that provides the final rationality of the behavior of a living being. In other words, both Pavlov, and behaviorists, and current admirers of His Majesty the Randomness, the latter acts as the pseudonym of the most primitive irrational God. | | ??????, ???? ???????, ?????? ? ??????? ????????? ???????? ? ??????? ? ?????? ??????? ? ??, ??? ???????? ????????????? ?????????? ????? ? ??????? ??????????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?????????? ??? ? ????????? ????????, ???????? ? ????? ?????? ???????????? ?????????. ???? ? ?? ????????? ???????, ????????? ?????????? ????????? ??? ??????????? ????????????? ??????? ??????? ? ????????, ?? ????? ???? ???????????? ?????, ???????????????? ???????? ???? ?????? ???? ??????, ?????? ?? ?????????? ???????????? ?????????, ?? ????? ?? ????????. | By the way, our colleagues who are searching for and successfully finding thinking in the "Brain" and na?vely believing that studying the electrical activity of the brain with the help of modern computer technology can at least take us a step closer to understanding thinking, remain in captivity of the most primitive fetishism. The brain is not a magical object capable of immanently inherent magical abilities to give birth to the psyche and thinking, but only a material organ whose functioning itself must be understood based on the objective activity of the organism, but not the other way around. ? | | ????????, ?????????? ??????, ???????????? ?? ????????????? ? ??????? ??????????? ????????????? ?????????? ???????? ? ???????????, ????????????? ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?? ?????????????? ??????. ???????? ??????? ???????? ???? ?? ???????????? ??????????? ??????? ??????????? ?? ?? ? ???????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ??????, ?? ?? ? ?????? ?????????????? ????????????? ???????????? ???? ????, ?? ????????????????? ? ????????, ?????????? ????, ? ??????? ??????????? ??????????? ??? ???????? ??? ????????? ??????? ?????? ? ??????? ?????????? ??????, ?? ????????? ? ????? ??? ???????? ????, ???????? ??????? ????? ???????? ????????? ????????????? ? ????????? ?? ????, ???? ?? ??????? ?????, ? ????, ???? ?????????? ????????? ?? ?????, ???????? ???? ???????? ? ?????? ? ????????????? (???????????) ??????? ???. | It remains, in fact, the only possibility of rational explanation of thinking, not appealing to mysticism, an opportunity realized by Spinoza and his colleagues in the activity logic. According to Spinoza, thinking is not a mysterious bodiless process that flows either in the space of the cranium, "in the brain," or in some metaphysical, otherworldly Platonic world of ideas, but unfolding in a real, physical world in which the overwhelming majority of bodies move under the influence of external impacts and clicks of the mockery of fate, but some - living or thinking bodies, are capable of exerting this external arbitrariness and moving not where they are pushed from the outside, but where it is necessary to move by themselves, agree its movement with the form and disposition of external bodies. | | ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???????? ? ?????? ???????????????, ????????????? ????????? ????????. ????? ????, ????????? ? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ? ????????? ????????????? ? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ? ?? ???????, ? ?? ??????? ????????????. | Once again, LSV does not even come close to such an active, Spinozian understanding of thinking. Moreover, "Thinking and Speaking" he directly begins with a presentation of the idea of thinking infinitely far away from both Spinoza and the concept of activity. | | ???????? ?????????? ??????? ?? ?????????? ??????? ? ???????? ?????????? ? ??? ????? ? ?? ?????? ????? ????????? ??????????, ?? ?????? ? ????????. ??????? ?????, ??? ???????? ??? ?????????????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ? ????????????? ?? ???????. ????, ???????, ???????????? ???????? ??? ?????????? (???????? ???????????????) ????????????, ? ?? ?????? ??????????????? ?????? ????????, ??????? ? ????????????? ????? ???????????? ????? ????????. (???, ?.?.???????????, ???????????? ????????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????????, ?? ???????? ??????-?? ?? ??? ??? ???????? ?????????? ? ????????????, ??????????? ???????? ?? ? ?????????? ????????????, ?? ? ???????????????????.) ? ???, ??? ????? ???????? ??? ?? ?????? ??????, ????? ????, ??? ??????? ??????????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ????? ???????????. | According to Vygotsky, the transition from unthinking matter to thinking takes place in two stages - at the first stage, there is a "sensation", on the second - thinking. Note that, according to his ideas, both these stages have nothing to do with activities. Unless, of course, we understand activity as an object-oriented activity, and not just an appropriate empty word, which any idealist can use with pleasure. (For example, GP Shchedrovitsky, who expressively called his memoirs "I'm an idealist", but who for some reason is still often called "Marxist", preferred to talk not about object-oriented activity, but about "thought activity"). About how to understand the "sensation" LSV did not say anything, except that it considers "sensation" a form or a kind of "reflection". | | ????? ?????????? ????????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????????? ????????? ????? - ???? ???????? ??? ?????????, ?????? ???????? ??????????? ? ???? ??????????. ???? ?? ??????? ??????????? ?????? ??? ????? ? ???? ? ????????? ?????????? ????????. | Any philosophically literate theorist must make from the above an obvious conclusion - if the sensation is a reflection, then the sensation belongs to the ideal world. The very nature of ideality puts us face to face with the problem of the truth of knowledge. | | ??? ????? ?????????? ????????, ??? ??? ?? ???? ??????????, ?? ????? ????, ??? ???-?? ??????? ? ??????????. ?????? ??????? ? ??? ?? ????????? ???????, ?? ???, ??? ????????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ??????????????? ? ?????????? ????. ????? ? ??? ??? ?? ????????????, ??????? ????? ?????????-??????????, ? ?????? ? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????????????? ?????????-?????????? ? ???????? ????????????? ????? | What is reflection? Obviously, this is not something that is reflected, but something else that is somehow connected with what is reflected. And it is connected with it not in a random way, but so that allows the subject of reflection correctly navigate in the objective world. Otherwise, what would be the practical, utilitarian sense of "sensation-reflection", and so what would be the meaning of the emergence of "sensation-reflection" in the evolution of the material world? | | ?? ? ??? ? ????? ??????, ??????? ??, ??????? ?????????? ?? ??????????? ?????? ??????? ????????????, ??? ????????? ??????????, ??? ??????? ?? ???????? ? ???????? ???????? ???????????? ?????????, ??????????? ??? ?????????, ??? ???????????????? ???????? | But what, we ask, is the difference between "feeling" and "thinking"? And a qualitative difference, for Vygotsky says that the transition from sensation to thinking is a qualitative transition, impossible without dialectical denial, without a "dialectical leap"? | | ????? ???, ???? ???????? ???? ????? ?????????, ? ??? ????????, ??? ??? ????????, ?????? ???? ?? ??????, ?? ???? ??????, ?? ????? ???? ???????? ??? ??????????? ????? ??????, ?? ????????? ???????? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????? ???? ?????????? ???????????, ?? ???? ???-?? ????????????. ??????????????, ????? ? ???????? ?? ???????? ?????? ?? ????????? ??????? - ???? ???????? ???? ????? ?????????, ? ???????? ???? ????????? ????????, ??? ???????? ???????????. | Meanwhile, if the sensation is something ideal, and this is obvious, for my sensation of the same sun, is not the sun, but merely a sensation or sensual image of the sun, ?so the negation of sensation must, according to the elementary logic, be a negation of ideality, that is, something material. Accordingly, the conclusion to which we come, looks extremely strange - if the sensation is something ideal, and thinking is the negation of the sensation, then ... thinking is material. | | ???? ?? ????????, ??? ????????? ???? ?????? ??????, ??? ?????????? ?????, ??? ? ??????????? ????? ?? ???????????? ?????? ????????, ?? ???????????? ???, ???????? ??? ????????? ???????.? ??, ???? ? ???????? ? ???????? ????????, ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???????????? ????????????? ????????????, ????????? ??? ??????????????? ??????. ????? ??????, ? ????????, ? ???????? ??? ????, ?????? ? ???????? ? ???????? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????????, ?? ? ?????? ?????? ????????? ??????? ????????????? ????? ? ??? ?? ????????. ?? ?????, ??????????? ?????????? ? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ?? ???????? ????????. ??? ???????? ??? ??? ?????????? ?? ??? ?????????? ???????????. | Needless to say, the latter is utter absurdity, for "thinking" as well as the sensory image is not identical with its subject, but represents it, is its ideal image. But, if both sensation and thinking are ideal, there can not be a qualitative contradiction, a negation, or a dialectical leap between them. In other words, both sensation and thinking are ONE, hence both sensation and thinking are not two different entities, but at best different stages of concretization of one and the same essence. But then, Vygotsky's statement about the qualitative difference between the sensation and thinking is erroneous. Similarly, all of its further arguments based on it are erroneous. | | ?????, ???????, ?????????? ??????? ????????. ?? ?? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ?????????????. ????????????? ? ???, ??? ????????, ?????????? ?????????? ??????? ?? ???????? ????? ?????????? ? ??? ???? ??????????? ?? ??????????. ????? ??????? ?? ????????? ? ? ???????, ? ? ?????, ?? ?????? ??? ? ????????? ??????????????? ??????????. ?????? ? ???? ?????? ??? ????????? ???????? ????????????, ???????????????? ? ?????? ???????????? ?????????????? ? ?????? ?, ??? ????????, ???????????? ?? ???????????? ?????, ????????????? ? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ????????, ???????? ???????? ? ?? ????, ? ?? ?? ??????. | Here, however, it is necessary to make a reservation. We do not consider Vygotsky the author of this erroneous idea. The notion that the abyss separating unthinking matter from thinking can be skipped in two steps does not belong to Vygotsky. Something similar we will find in both Descartes and Locke, not to mention the multitude of theorizing psychologists. Simply at this point, LSV repeats the general prejudice that prevailed and still continues to dominate the theory and, as a theorist, targeting to basically new Spinozist and Marxist solution of the problem of thinking, is obliged to respond both for his own and for their mistakes. | To be continued... Sasha From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Nov 8 02:44:00 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 19:44:00 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgUmU6IDogT2JqZWN0IG9yaWVudGVkIGFjdGl2?= =?utf-8?q?ity_and_communication?= In-Reply-To: <625325354.7444882.1510092080294@mail.yahoo.com> References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> <1509961400413.22381@iped.uio.no> <625325354.7444882.1510092080294@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think that a conclusion can be perfectly absurd in philosophy, and yet completely correct in science. For example, the idea of free will is a problem in philosophy (partly because of the history of philosophy in religion), but it is essentially a postulate for science (because whole branches of science, including psychology, sociology and history, cease to exist without it). So the conclusion which Sasha calls absurd--that words are material and social and feelings are a void of that social, materiality--do seem scientifically correct to me. That was what I was trying to convey when I said that thoughts are quotable but feelings are not; that it is impossible to know if Sasha and I have the same feeling when we both have a toothache, but it is literally impossible NOT to know when and to what extent Sasha and I have the same thought when we use words, because the very use of words is precisely the process of coming to some kind of agreement about the nature of their meanings. As Hamlet says, "This was sometime a paradox, but now the time gives it proof." One of the plenaries in Quebec City that we haven't discussed yet was that of David Bakhurst on Ilyenkov's first run-in with Soviet philosophy, "Punks versus Zombies". One of the many important points that Bakhurst made was that, as any materialist would expect, the kind of repression that Leontiev and Ilyenkov lived under did not, seemingly, kill them, but left terrible scars on their work (not so much Leontiev's miserable article on the environment but his abject capitulation to Lysenko, and Ilyenkov's statement that Stalin had done philosophical work far more important than his own). The ending of Bakhurst's talk was, as he said, like that of a "Train to Busan": just when you think that our hero has escaped, a hand reaches out and drags him off...and the only fingerprints are those of the hero himself. David Kellogg On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Alexander Surmava < alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> wrote: > Dear Colleagues. > > I must apologize for the long silence. > Meanwhile, our discussion is becoming more and more interesting for me, > pushing for new reflections and new plans. Well, or to return to the old > plans, the implementation of which I have long postponed. > I am referring to my plans to embark on a study with the aim to clarify > the Marxist view of the concept of "ideality" - the central category of > classical philosophy, starting at least from Plato. "The dialectic of > ideality" was the last theoretical work of Ilyenkov. Meanwhile, there is > enough reasons to believe that this topic, which was of the utmost > importance for philosophy and psychology, was far from complete. > Below, I will publish a rather large post, the logic of which brings our > discussion to the discussion of the problem of ideality. > In the meantime looking ahead I want to say that Bakhtin / Voloshinov, who > emerged in our conversation with his popular essay "Marxism and the > Philosophy of Language" with his "brilliant" substitution of the category > "ideality" with the category "ideology" is a gift for our future work on > ideality, for in a concentrated form he demonstrates how a false > understanding of ideality leads to a complete break with Marxism. > > Sasha > > > ------------------------------ > *??:* Alfredo Jornet Gil > *????:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *??????????:* ???????????, 6 ?????? 2017 12:45 > *????:* [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > As a clarification, that sounds clear to me, David, thanks! I wonder how > does that sound to others, > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: 06 November 2017 10:37 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > I'll try, Alfredo. > > I think that Sasha and Haydi are arguing that if we accept language as > sign, we risk treating it as a superstructure that has freed itself from > its base, that is, the labor of the worker and the peasant, labor which has > the power to materially transform a material environment. This is a move > they oppose, because there is the danger that a semiotic superstructure > will supply itself a "different" base--that is, a base not in the laborer > who materially transforms the material environment but rather in the > thinker who ideologically transforms an ideal context and thus acts on > himself or herself but leaves the worker and the peasant in the lurch. > Both Sasha and Haydi consider Leontiev and activity as an important > countermeasure to this semanticizing tendency in Vygotsky.This is an > argument with a lot of history, and it is one that I reject. > > I don't simply reject it on behalf of the child, who has to master signs > before she or he can master tools (and even when the child can master > tools, viz. toy tools, the child must master them as signs--as > meanings--and not as a means to transform the social environment. I also > reject it on the part of the worker and the peasant, as did Brecht, as did > Vygotsky, and...as did Volosinov. For if Haydi is going to read the whole > of Volosinov, he must indeed select aspects of Volosinov that he does not > like, including Volosinov's very Marxist distinction between the way that > the peasant experiences hunger and the way that the worker experiences it: > these are indeed different poles of the same experience, and one can go > much closer to the 'we pole' than the other. (The reason why the Chinese > famine of 1959-1961 was so devestating was precisely that it was > experienced very differently in the cities than in the countryside.) > > The use of "pole" is not mine; it is that of Volosinov (p. 87). Similarly, > the use of "water into wine" is not mine; it is that of Vygotsky > (Psychology of Art, p. 243). Vygotsky is rejecting the Bukharinist notion > of Proletkult, that of the artist as a Christlike figure, multiplying bread > and fishes for the masses. For Vygotsky, this isn't much of a miracle at > all, it is precisely what peasants and workers quite without art every > single day of their working lives. If we want art to permeate life, we > cannot do it by reducing art to the level of everyday experience: that is > not art permeating life, but only the tired old nineteenth century slogan > of life permeating art, repeated as Proletkult, as Soviet socialist > realism, and consequently, as Marx would say, as farce. > > David Kellogg > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could you > > or anyone else help me understand? > > > > I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist > > approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, > reading > > the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of > verbal > > communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and the > > sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). > > > > Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila > > Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs > 99% > > of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? > > > > Thanks, > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? > > Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > Alfredo, > > I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get > > engaged in any more discussion. > > > > If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully > > and with care and attention and gratitude. > > > > You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to > > replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support > > from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece > > which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of > > the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not > > tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such > > condemnation. > > > > It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual > base. > > The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over > > one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over > ones > > become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the > > previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative > of > > their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the > > whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and > > slave owners (old and new). > > > > When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore > > but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. > > > > Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as > > measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just > a > > 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. > Here > > verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having > > co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , > > sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 > > pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship > > evil! > > Voila Voloshinov!! > > > > Best > > Haydi > > > > > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital > to > > Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, > Brecht, > > Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education > > to privileged access. > > > > How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking > > about privileged access (to immediate experience)? > > > > Here was Sasha's critique: > > > > "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience > > (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of > > object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." > > > > and that, > > > > "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal > > 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own > work, > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look > something > > inferior." > > > > Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we > > ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do > with > > exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest > > for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words > > supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the > > latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the > issue > > of democratic education? > > > > My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed > > out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems > > quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than > > some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a > > quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond > of > > Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply > > externalising something that had been formed internally but rather > > thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical > > activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) > > experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it > that > > makes me suspicious. > > > > Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has > > been mobilised in the thread: > > > > "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" > > goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and > > alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not > > primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an > > individuation of a social emotion" (D.K to Greg). > > > > I may be wrong or miss some of the background, but to me, this type of > > argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, > who > > argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on > > converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming > > magic arbitrary forces. > > > > I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it > > "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that > the > > most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of > the > > relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes > > resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a > > materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. > 40). > > If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche > and > > ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary > and > > objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that > > social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. > > > > I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an > > I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it > > is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov > > in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two > poles > > constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: > > > > "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward > > expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) > > > > and > > > > "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material > > (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a > fiction. > > It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction > from > > the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). > > > > But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness > > is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's > been > > posed here a fiction too? > > > > In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express > their > > life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their > > production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', > > 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT > > community. > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > activity and communication > > > > Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the > Philosophy > > of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one > > end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be > > communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is > > provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this > > experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, > > the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er > > lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie"). At the other end of the pole > > is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is > > over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond > sullen > > and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the > > peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians > who > > reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight > of a > > satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. > > (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both > > poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my > > English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) > > > > Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course > Brecht > > was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, > > where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He > wonders > > why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much > > more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by > > Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this > is > > the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I > > experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we > > experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically > > transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially > an > > "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an individuation of a > > social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on > > Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually > > supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help > > yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist > > Party). > > > > Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: > > > > We have hunger, hunger, hunger > > Have hunger, hunger hunger > > Have hunger, hunger hunger > > Have thirst. > > > > If we don't get something, get, get, get > > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > > >From the wall. > > > > If they don't taste good, taste, taste > > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > > >From the forest. > > > > If they don't last, last, last > > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > > >From the grave. > > > > If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice > > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > > >From the forest. > > > > (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks > into > > virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the > song > > much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" > > with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would > be > > far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) > > > > David Kellogg > > > > (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine > > Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love > > with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ > > > > dk > > > > On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > > > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open > to > > > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > > > > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > > > archived). > > > > > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think > as > > > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > > > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being > careful > > > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > > > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > > > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this > > is > > > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > > > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > > > > > -greg? > > > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just > realized > > > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma > wrote: > > > > > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > > > between > > > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged > > access > > > - > > > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of > one > > of > > > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it > happens > > > to > > > > be > > > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > > > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism > > implied > > > by > > > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this > > capacity > > > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these > are > > > > WEIRD > > > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in > some > > > > > cultural > > > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that > is > > > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm > thinking > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > > > seeing > > > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of > practical > > > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > > > Volosinov's > > > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > > > different > > > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and > not?)? > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, > but > > > > seems > > > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the > vein > > > of > > > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > > > subject/object, > > > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels > > is > > > > his > > > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is > communicated > > > is > > > > a > > > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable > thought > > > > "I'm > > > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > > > "Grandpa > > > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself". I think that > > when > > > > > Alan > > > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > > > seeing > > > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > > > concrete > > > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > > > address. > > > > > So > > > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not > confounded. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole > > flock > > > > > takes > > > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than > > "communication". > > > > > What > > > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > > > afraid > > > > > of > > > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > > > geese > > > > > are > > > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; > they > > > are > > > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > > > pepper > > > > > on > > > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your > > cold. > > > > > There > > > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream > in > > a > > > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > > > airplane > > > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated > was > > > the > > > > > >> fact > > > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. > > Adolfo > > > > > >> Garcia > > > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you > can > > > say > > > > > "My > > > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that > it > > > was > > > > > >> time > > > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was > > time > > > > for > > > > > >> breakfast". Mental processes are one thing, and material > > processes > > > > are > > > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > > > reflect > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> knowledge. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > > > >> > > > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett > > thinks > > > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has > > understood > > > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are > > actually > > > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > David > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel > their > > > > pain? > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson > > seems > > > to > > > > > >> feel > > > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they > poke > > > > their > > > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to > have > > > any > > > > > >> words > > > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and > such a > > > > way, > > > > > >> you > > > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the > expression > > > > > straight > > > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. > As > > > > Alan > > > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed > to > > a > > > > cow > > > > > in > > > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > > > called?) > > > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Julian > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on > > behalf > > > of > > > > > >> David > > > > > >> > Kellogg" > > > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > > > brain > > > > > >> > differently > > > > > >> > than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to > MRI > > > > scans > > > > > >> or > > > > > >> > computerized tomography. In fact these can and do > distinguish > > > > > >> between > > > > > >> > verbs > > > > > >> > of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky > > did > > > > > have > > > > > >> > access > > > > > >> > to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > > > words > > > > of > > > > > >> > another > > > > > >> > person. I can say, for example: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with > Marxism". > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with > Marxism." > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as > I > > > can > > > > > >> read > > > > > >> > Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > > > the > > > > > >> > actions or > > > > > >> > the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, > for > > > > > >> example: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > > > thought a > > > > > >> > word > > > > > >> > meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > > > cold." > > > > > >> This > > > > > >> > is > > > > > >> > originally a line from the revolutionary opera > "Shajiabang", > > > > > about a > > > > > >> > woman > > > > > >> > who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > > > children > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> > acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > > > officer; > > > > > >> they > > > > > >> > accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > > > all > > > > > >> people > > > > > >> > who > > > > > >> > come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they > go, > > > > > their > > > > > >> > tea is > > > > > >> > cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the > toothache > > > of > > > > > >> another > > > > > >> > person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > > > words. > > > > > >> > Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > > > >> > "immediately", > > > > > >> > because thoughts and words have already made the > dialectical > > > > > >> leap--the > > > > > >> > leap > > > > > >> > from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some > people > > > > > >> > > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to > be > > > > > >> > > the key category. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is > activity > > > > > >> > > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > > > >> > > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > > > >> > > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > > > >> > > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > > > >> > > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > > > >> > > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision > > of > > > > > >> > > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > > > >> > > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > > > >> > > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > > > >> > > this move. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa > > does > > > > > >> > > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > > > >> > > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > >> > > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > > > >> > > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > > > myself I > > > > > >> > have > > > > > >> > > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > > > sense) > > > > > >> is a > > > > > >> > > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > > > >> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > > > >> > > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > > > >> > > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity; > > > > Mike > > > > > >> > Cole; > > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > > oriented > > > > > >> > activity > > > > > >> > > and communication > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Dear Alfredo, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You > definitely > > > > > >> noticed > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and > > developed > > > > > >> > technologies, > > > > > >> > > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > > > >> exploiters, > > > > > >> > between > > > > > >> > > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > > > opposite > > > > > >> > between > > > > > >> > > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > > > always > > > > > >> been > > > > > >> > a > > > > > >> > > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > > > cosmopolitan > > > > > >> class. > > > > > >> > > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > > > fight > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > to kill > > > > > >> > > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > > > cooperate > > > > > >> > with > > > > > >> > > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to > > receive > > > > > >> > dividends from > > > > > >> > > their enterprises located on the territory of their > > "enemy." > > > > > Today > > > > > >> > Putin's > > > > > >> > > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > > > their > > > > > >> > capitals to > > > > > >> > > this West, buy property there, send their children to > study > > > > > there > > > > > >> > and go > > > > > >> > > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > > > Poroshenko > > > > > >> - > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > president of the country that was subje > > > > > >> > > > cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > > > chocolate > > > > > >> > > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > > > >> > > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > > > States, > > > > > the > > > > > >> > policy > > > > > >> > > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > > > each > > > > > >> other > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > working people of different ethnic groups and > confessions, > > > on > > > > > >> their > > > > > >> > > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > > > >> creatures. > > > > > >> > > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity > incited > > > by > > > > > the > > > > > >> > ruling > > > > > >> > > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > > > working > > > > > >> > people > > > > > >> > > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > > > public > > > > > >> > > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > > > constructed > > > > > >> > allegedly on > > > > > >> > > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred > years > > > > ago, > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, > the > > > > same > > > > > >> task > > > > > >> > is > > > > > >> > > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > > > so-called > > > > > >> > "cultural" > > > > > >> > > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > > > biological > > > > > >> > differences > > > > > >> > > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > > > >> > > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, > but > > > > also > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > "psychology of culture". > > > > > >> > > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only > in > > > > words > > > > > >> but > > > > > >> > also > > > > > >> > > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is > > not > > > > the > > > > > >> > ability of > > > > > >> > > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of > > words, > > > > but > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > be > > > > > >> > > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the > subjects > > > of > > > > > >> labor. > > > > > >> > > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > > > believed > > > > > >> > that the > > > > > >> > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking > is > > > > > just a > > > > > >> > verbal > > > > > >> > > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver > to > > > > us, > > > > > >> then > > > > > >> > any > > > > > >> > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > > > seem > > > > > to > > > > > >> us > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant > > doing > > > > his > > > > > >> own > > > > > >> > work, > > > > > >> > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, > will > > > > look > > > > > >> > something > > > > > >> > > inferior. > > > > > >> > > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of > Vygotsky's > > > > > >> theory, > > > > > >> > open > > > > > >> > > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not > only a > > > > > >> > transition > > > > > >> > > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that > > is > > > > > >> capable > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> > > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. > This > > > > > >> implies > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> > > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > > > different > > > > > >> > way in > > > > > >> > > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This > > qualitative > > > > > >> > difference is > > > > > >> > > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of > > reality. > > > > > >> > Therefore, > > > > > >> > > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in > the > > > > true > > > > > >> > sense of > > > > > >> > > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > > > inseparable > > > > > >> part > > > > > >> > of the > > > > > >> > > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > > > the > > > > > >> domain > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> > > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an > empty > > > > > sound. > > > > > >> A > > > > > >> > word > > > > > >> > > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of > speech. > > > One > > > > > >> > cannot say > > > > > >> > > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of > the > > > > word > > > > > >> > taken > > > > > >> > > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It > is > > > > both > > > > > at > > > > > >> > one and > > > > > >> > > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > > > >> > > > nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be > that > > > of > > > > > >> > semantic > > > > > >> > > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > > > meaningful > > > > > >> > aspect of > > > > > >> > > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will > > produce > > > > > >> answers > > > > > >> > to > > > > > >> > > our questions concerning the relationship between > thinking > > > and > > > > > >> speech > > > > > >> > > because this relationship is already contained in the > unit > > > of > > > > > >> > analysis. In > > > > > >> > > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > > > unit, > > > > > we > > > > > >> > will > > > > > >> > > come to understand a great deal that is of direct > relevance > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > >> > problem > > > > > >> > > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the > nature > > > of > > > > > >> verbal > > > > > >> > > thinking." > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not > > the > > > > > >> > slightest > > > > > >> > > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > > > attempt > > > > > to > > > > > >> > combine > > > > > >> > > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with > the > > > > > school > > > > > >> > textbook > > > > > >> > > of formal logic. > > > > > >> > > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > > > detailed > > > > > >> > > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this > > analysis > > > > in > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > very > > > > > >> > > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > > > >> assertion > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> > > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a > maximally > > > > > >> aphoristic > > > > > >> > > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > > > >> > materialists, the > > > > > >> > > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is > the > > > > > >> > instrument of > > > > > >> > > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > > > generalization > > > > > >> is > > > > > >> > not a > > > > > >> > > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > > > >> > generalizing the > > > > > >> > > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means > of > > > > > >> > analyzing all > > > > > >> > > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > > > optics > > > > > of > > > > > >> > > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > > > >> ideality.) > > > > > >> > > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results > > of > > > > > >> Luria's > > > > > >> > trip > > > > > >> > > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > > > >> illiterate > > > > > >> > > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > > > >> > > > r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe > and > > > > > melon > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> > > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > > > formal > > > > > >> > logical > > > > > >> > > operations with words denoting these things, is declared > a > > > > > >> primitive > > > > > >> > > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap > > who > > > > > knows > > > > > >> > how to > > > > > >> > > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > > > the > > > > > >> melon > > > > > >> > only > > > > > >> > > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is > declared > > > > the > > > > > >> > bearer of > > > > > >> > > scientific consciousness. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > > > come > > > > > to > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > value of instruments of labor, not only for the > > distribution > > > > of > > > > > >> > material > > > > > >> > > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > > > wealth, > > > > > for > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > distribution of the ability to think, for the > distribution > > > of > > > > > >> > culture. Only > > > > > >> > > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > > > culture > > > > as > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > > > accumulated > > > > > >> by > > > > > >> > > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of > such > > > > based > > > > > >> on > > > > > >> > idea of > > > > > >> > > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > > > able > > > > to > > > > > >> get > > > > > >> > out of > > > > > >> > > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > > > arbitrariness. > > > > > >> > > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > > > set > > > > > the > > > > > >> > task of > > > > > >> > > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > > > considered > > > > > that > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > first real step in this direction was made by his friend > > and > > > > > >> student > > > > > >> > AN > > > > > >> > > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > > > >> > > > Sasha > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > >> > >; > > > > > >> > > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > > > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > > > >; > > > > > >> > Martin > > > > > >> > > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > < > > > > > >> > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > > > >> > > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > > > >> > > > ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > > > >> activity > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > communication > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > > > >> > > Dear Sasha, all, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > > > issues > > > > > at > > > > > >> > home > > > > > >> > > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have > limited > > > > > >> > participation > > > > > >> > > anywhere else than home life. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like > a > > > > > >> concrete > > > > > >> > aspect > > > > > >> > > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning > of > > > > this > > > > > >> > > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical > (real) > > > > > >> relevance > > > > > >> > to us > > > > > >> > > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is > this > > > > > >> 'real,' > > > > > >> > and is > > > > > >> > > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > > > addressing > > > > > >> any > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > everyone) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Alfredo > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > > > >> > > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > > > >> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; > Alfredo > > > > > Jornet > > > > > >> > Gil; > > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > > >> > > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > > oriented > > > > > >> > activity > > > > > >> > > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going > > to > > > > > >> discuss > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > > > most > > > > > >> > mature work. > > > > > >> > > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > > > >> "Dialectics > > > > > >> > of the > > > > > >> > > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am > aware > > > > that > > > > > >> > there is a > > > > > >> > > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > > > >> adequately > > > > > >> > > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > > > Marx's > > > > > >> > theory was > > > > > >> > > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > > > better > > > > > to > > > > > >> > study > > > > > >> > > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of > ?Das > > > > > >> Kapital?. > > > > > >> > Along > > > > > >> > > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that > the > > > > > >> > discussion of > > > > > >> > > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > > > themes. > > > > > I > > > > > >> > think > > > > > >> > > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > > > "steps", > > > > > >> but > > > > > >> > > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that > after > > > > that > > > > > >> try > > > > > >> > to rise > > > > > >> > > from it to the seco > > > > > >> > > > nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young > age, > > > it > > > > > >> seems > > > > > >> > to me > > > > > >> > > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > > > discussion > > > > > of > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > > > preparation > > > > to > > > > > >> > thinking, > > > > > >> > > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method > can > > > not > > > > > be > > > > > >> > studied > > > > > >> > > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > > > Perhaps > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> > seems > > > > > >> > > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are > not > > > > > >> familiar > > > > > >> > with > > > > > >> > > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > > > >> discussing > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > > > continue > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > carry > > > > > >> > > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of > the > > > > term > > > > > >> > activity. > > > > > >> > > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for > translators > > > > from > > > > > >> > Russian (or > > > > > >> > > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > > > very > > > > > >> > informative. > > > > > >> > > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden > completely > > > > > >> exhausted > > > > > >> > this > > > > > >> > > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > > > discuss > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > question: what is the justificati > > > > > >> > > > on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > > > Where, > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> > any > > > > > >> > > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of > > activity, > > > > not > > > > > >> > just uses > > > > > >> > > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which > it > > > is > > > > > >> used > > > > > >> > > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > > > >> activities) of > > > > > >> > > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > > > >> functions?, > > > > > >> > ?speech > > > > > >> > > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > > > >> > personality?- all > > > > > >> > > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, > with > > > > > Spinoza > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > > > >> discussing > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > > > Vygotsky > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > > > necessary > > > > > to > > > > > >> > try to > > > > > >> > > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, > proceeding > > > > from > > > > > >> THE > > > > > >> > REAL > > > > > >> > > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is > > impossible > > > > to > > > > > >> > understand > > > > > >> > > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > > > such > > > > > >> > theoretical > > > > > >> > > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > > > >> introduces a > > > > > >> > > category of object-oriented a > > > > > >> > > > ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little > use > > > > for > > > > > >> > solving > > > > > >> > > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never > said > > > > ?B?. > > > > > >> > Having > > > > > >> > > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis > > of > > > > the > > > > > >> > > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not > go > > > > > further > > > > > >> > failing > > > > > >> > > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract > category.Once > > > > > again, > > > > > >> > from > > > > > >> > > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > > > >> > > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological > Theory > > > of > > > > > >> > Activity" we > > > > > >> > > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > > > >> fundamentally > > > > > >> > new > > > > > >> > > approaches to education, based on dialectical, > > revolutionary > > > > > >> method > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> > > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary > to > > > > begin > > > > > >> not > > > > > >> > so > > > > > >> > > much - to learn to listen to each other... > > > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > > > >> > > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > > activity > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > > communication > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. > My > > > > > point > > > > > >> is > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> > > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s > analysis, > > > > and > > > > > >> > about its > > > > > >> > > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order > of > > > > the > > > > > >> > treatment > > > > > >> > > in Capital. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > > ablunden@mira.net > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3 > . > > > htm > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Of course the method of presentation must differ in > form > > > > > >> > > > from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate > the > > > > > >> > > > material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > > > >> > > > development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > > > >> > > > after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > > > >> > > > adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > > > >> > > > the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > > > >> > > > in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before > us a > > > > > >> > > > mere a priori construction. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Andy > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > > Andy Blunden > > > > > >> > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > >> > > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > > > >> > > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the > details > > > of > > > > > >> Marx?s > > > > > >> > > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > > > Grundrisse. > > > > > The > > > > > >> > two have > > > > > >> > > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the > order > > > of > > > > > >> > presentation > > > > > >> > > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Wed Nov 8 04:54:01 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 12:54:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgUmU6IDogT2JqZWN0IG9yaWVudGVkIGFjdGl2?= =?utf-8?q?ity_and_communication?= In-Reply-To: References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> <1509961400413.22381@iped.uio.no> <625325354.7444882.1510092080294@mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <1510145644070.51396@iped.uio.no> That's an interesting point David that should spark interesting responses. Meanwhile, I'd like to let you all know that previously and following ISCAR, I asked Bakhurst to share the text "Punks versus Zombies" and he kindly informed me that it will soon be published as a chapter in an edited book, and that we will then be able to discuss it. I'll be doing my best to get that text or at least the ideas in it disseminated here. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: 08 November 2017 11:44 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: : Object oriented activity and communication I think that a conclusion can be perfectly absurd in philosophy, and yet completely correct in science. For example, the idea of free will is a problem in philosophy (partly because of the history of philosophy in religion), but it is essentially a postulate for science (because whole branches of science, including psychology, sociology and history, cease to exist without it). So the conclusion which Sasha calls absurd--that words are material and social and feelings are a void of that social, materiality--do seem scientifically correct to me. That was what I was trying to convey when I said that thoughts are quotable but feelings are not; that it is impossible to know if Sasha and I have the same feeling when we both have a toothache, but it is literally impossible NOT to know when and to what extent Sasha and I have the same thought when we use words, because the very use of words is precisely the process of coming to some kind of agreement about the nature of their meanings. As Hamlet says, "This was sometime a paradox, but now the time gives it proof." One of the plenaries in Quebec City that we haven't discussed yet was that of David Bakhurst on Ilyenkov's first run-in with Soviet philosophy, "Punks versus Zombies". One of the many important points that Bakhurst made was that, as any materialist would expect, the kind of repression that Leontiev and Ilyenkov lived under did not, seemingly, kill them, but left terrible scars on their work (not so much Leontiev's miserable article on the environment but his abject capitulation to Lysenko, and Ilyenkov's statement that Stalin had done philosophical work far more important than his own). The ending of Bakhurst's talk was, as he said, like that of a "Train to Busan": just when you think that our hero has escaped, a hand reaches out and drags him off...and the only fingerprints are those of the hero himself. David Kellogg On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Alexander Surmava < alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> wrote: > Dear Colleagues. > > I must apologize for the long silence. > Meanwhile, our discussion is becoming more and more interesting for me, > pushing for new reflections and new plans. Well, or to return to the old > plans, the implementation of which I have long postponed. > I am referring to my plans to embark on a study with the aim to clarify > the Marxist view of the concept of "ideality" - the central category of > classical philosophy, starting at least from Plato. "The dialectic of > ideality" was the last theoretical work of Ilyenkov. Meanwhile, there is > enough reasons to believe that this topic, which was of the utmost > importance for philosophy and psychology, was far from complete. > Below, I will publish a rather large post, the logic of which brings our > discussion to the discussion of the problem of ideality. > In the meantime looking ahead I want to say that Bakhtin / Voloshinov, who > emerged in our conversation with his popular essay "Marxism and the > Philosophy of Language" with his "brilliant" substitution of the category > "ideality" with the category "ideology" is a gift for our future work on > ideality, for in a concentrated form he demonstrates how a false > understanding of ideality leads to a complete break with Marxism. > > Sasha > > > ------------------------------ > *??:* Alfredo Jornet Gil > *????:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *??????????:* ???????????, 6 ?????? 2017 12:45 > *????:* [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > As a clarification, that sounds clear to me, David, thanks! I wonder how > does that sound to others, > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: 06 November 2017 10:37 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > I'll try, Alfredo. > > I think that Sasha and Haydi are arguing that if we accept language as > sign, we risk treating it as a superstructure that has freed itself from > its base, that is, the labor of the worker and the peasant, labor which has > the power to materially transform a material environment. This is a move > they oppose, because there is the danger that a semiotic superstructure > will supply itself a "different" base--that is, a base not in the laborer > who materially transforms the material environment but rather in the > thinker who ideologically transforms an ideal context and thus acts on > himself or herself but leaves the worker and the peasant in the lurch. > Both Sasha and Haydi consider Leontiev and activity as an important > countermeasure to this semanticizing tendency in Vygotsky.This is an > argument with a lot of history, and it is one that I reject. > > I don't simply reject it on behalf of the child, who has to master signs > before she or he can master tools (and even when the child can master > tools, viz. toy tools, the child must master them as signs--as > meanings--and not as a means to transform the social environment. I also > reject it on the part of the worker and the peasant, as did Brecht, as did > Vygotsky, and...as did Volosinov. For if Haydi is going to read the whole > of Volosinov, he must indeed select aspects of Volosinov that he does not > like, including Volosinov's very Marxist distinction between the way that > the peasant experiences hunger and the way that the worker experiences it: > these are indeed different poles of the same experience, and one can go > much closer to the 'we pole' than the other. (The reason why the Chinese > famine of 1959-1961 was so devestating was precisely that it was > experienced very differently in the cities than in the countryside.) > > The use of "pole" is not mine; it is that of Volosinov (p. 87). Similarly, > the use of "water into wine" is not mine; it is that of Vygotsky > (Psychology of Art, p. 243). Vygotsky is rejecting the Bukharinist notion > of Proletkult, that of the artist as a Christlike figure, multiplying bread > and fishes for the masses. For Vygotsky, this isn't much of a miracle at > all, it is precisely what peasants and workers quite without art every > single day of their working lives. If we want art to permeate life, we > cannot do it by reducing art to the level of everyday experience: that is > not art permeating life, but only the tired old nineteenth century slogan > of life permeating art, repeated as Proletkult, as Soviet socialist > realism, and consequently, as Marx would say, as farce. > > David Kellogg > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could you > > or anyone else help me understand? > > > > I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist > > approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, > reading > > the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of > verbal > > communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and the > > sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). > > > > Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila > > Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs > 99% > > of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? > > > > Thanks, > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? > > Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > Alfredo, > > I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get > > engaged in any more discussion. > > > > If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully > > and with care and attention and gratitude. > > > > You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to > > replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support > > from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece > > which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of > > the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not > > tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such > > condemnation. > > > > It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual > base. > > The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over > > one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over > ones > > become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the > > previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative > of > > their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the > > whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and > > slave owners (old and new). > > > > When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore > > but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. > > > > Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as > > measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just > a > > 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. > Here > > verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having > > co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , > > sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 > > pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship > > evil! > > Voila Voloshinov!! > > > > Best > > Haydi > > > > > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital > to > > Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, > Brecht, > > Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education > > to privileged access. > > > > How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking > > about privileged access (to immediate experience)? > > > > Here was Sasha's critique: > > > > "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience > > (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of > > object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." > > > > and that, > > > > "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal > > 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own > work, > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look > something > > inferior." > > > > Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we > > ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do > with > > exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest > > for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words > > supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the > > latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the > issue > > of democratic education? > > > > My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed > > out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems > > quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than > > some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a > > quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond > of > > Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply > > externalising something that had been formed internally but rather > > thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical > > activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) > > experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it > that > > makes me suspicious. > > > > Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has > > been mobilised in the thread: > > > > "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" > > goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and > > alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not > > primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an > > individuation of a social emotion" (D.K to Greg). > > > > I may be wrong or miss some of the background, but to me, this type of > > argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, > who > > argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on > > converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming > > magic arbitrary forces. > > > > I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it > > "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that > the > > most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of > the > > relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes > > resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a > > materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. > 40). > > If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche > and > > ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary > and > > objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that > > social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. > > > > I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an > > I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it > > is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov > > in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two > poles > > constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: > > > > "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward > > expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) > > > > and > > > > "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material > > (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a > fiction. > > It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction > from > > the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). > > > > But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness > > is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's > been > > posed here a fiction too? > > > > In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express > their > > life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their > > production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', > > 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT > > community. > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > activity and communication > > > > Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the > Philosophy > > of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one > > end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be > > communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is > > provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this > > experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, > > the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er > > lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie"). At the other end of the pole > > is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is > > over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond > sullen > > and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the > > peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians > who > > reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight > of a > > satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. > > (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both > > poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my > > English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) > > > > Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course > Brecht > > was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, > > where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He > wonders > > why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much > > more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by > > Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this > is > > the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I > > experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we > > experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically > > transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially > an > > "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an individuation of a > > social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on > > Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually > > supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help > > yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist > > Party). > > > > Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: > > > > We have hunger, hunger, hunger > > Have hunger, hunger hunger > > Have hunger, hunger hunger > > Have thirst. > > > > If we don't get something, get, get, get > > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > > >From the wall. > > > > If they don't taste good, taste, taste > > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > > >From the forest. > > > > If they don't last, last, last > > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > > >From the grave. > > > > If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice > > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > > >From the forest. > > > > (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks > into > > virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the > song > > much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" > > with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would > be > > far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) > > > > David Kellogg > > > > (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine > > Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love > > with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ > > > > dk > > > > On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > > > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open > to > > > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > > > > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > > > archived). > > > > > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think > as > > > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > > > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being > careful > > > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > > > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > > > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this > > is > > > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > > > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > > > > > -greg? > > > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just > realized > > > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma > wrote: > > > > > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > > > between > > > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged > > access > > > - > > > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of > one > > of > > > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it > happens > > > to > > > > be > > > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > > > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism > > implied > > > by > > > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this > > capacity > > > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these > are > > > > WEIRD > > > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in > some > > > > > cultural > > > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that > is > > > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm > thinking > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > > > seeing > > > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of > practical > > > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > > > Volosinov's > > > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > > > different > > > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and > not?)? > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, > but > > > > seems > > > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the > vein > > > of > > > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > > > subject/object, > > > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels > > is > > > > his > > > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is > communicated > > > is > > > > a > > > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable > thought > > > > "I'm > > > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > > > "Grandpa > > > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself". I think that > > when > > > > > Alan > > > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > > > seeing > > > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > > > concrete > > > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > > > address. > > > > > So > > > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not > confounded. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole > > flock > > > > > takes > > > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than > > "communication". > > > > > What > > > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > > > afraid > > > > > of > > > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > > > geese > > > > > are > > > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; > they > > > are > > > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > > > pepper > > > > > on > > > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your > > cold. > > > > > There > > > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream > in > > a > > > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > > > airplane > > > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated > was > > > the > > > > > >> fact > > > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. > > Adolfo > > > > > >> Garcia > > > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you > can > > > say > > > > > "My > > > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that > it > > > was > > > > > >> time > > > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was > > time > > > > for > > > > > >> breakfast". Mental processes are one thing, and material > > processes > > > > are > > > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > > > reflect > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> knowledge. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > > > >> > > > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett > > thinks > > > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has > > understood > > > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are > > actually > > > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > David > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel > their > > > > pain? > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson > > seems > > > to > > > > > >> feel > > > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they > poke > > > > their > > > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to > have > > > any > > > > > >> words > > > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and > such a > > > > way, > > > > > >> you > > > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the > expression > > > > > straight > > > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. > As > > > > Alan > > > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed > to > > a > > > > cow > > > > > in > > > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > > > called?) > > > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Julian > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on > > behalf > > > of > > > > > >> David > > > > > >> > Kellogg" > > > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > > > brain > > > > > >> > differently > > > > > >> > than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to > MRI > > > > scans > > > > > >> or > > > > > >> > computerized tomography. In fact these can and do > distinguish > > > > > >> between > > > > > >> > verbs > > > > > >> > of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky > > did > > > > > have > > > > > >> > access > > > > > >> > to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > > > words > > > > of > > > > > >> > another > > > > > >> > person. I can say, for example: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with > Marxism". > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with > Marxism." > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as > I > > > can > > > > > >> read > > > > > >> > Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > > > the > > > > > >> > actions or > > > > > >> > the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, > for > > > > > >> example: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > > > thought a > > > > > >> > word > > > > > >> > meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > > > cold." > > > > > >> This > > > > > >> > is > > > > > >> > originally a line from the revolutionary opera > "Shajiabang", > > > > > about a > > > > > >> > woman > > > > > >> > who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > > > children > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> > acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > > > officer; > > > > > >> they > > > > > >> > accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > > > all > > > > > >> people > > > > > >> > who > > > > > >> > come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they > go, > > > > > their > > > > > >> > tea is > > > > > >> > cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the > toothache > > > of > > > > > >> another > > > > > >> > person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > > > words. > > > > > >> > Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > > > >> > "immediately", > > > > > >> > because thoughts and words have already made the > dialectical > > > > > >> leap--the > > > > > >> > leap > > > > > >> > from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some > people > > > > > >> > > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to > be > > > > > >> > > the key category. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is > activity > > > > > >> > > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > > > >> > > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > > > >> > > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > > > >> > > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > > > >> > > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > > > >> > > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision > > of > > > > > >> > > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > > > >> > > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > > > >> > > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > > > >> > > this move. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa > > does > > > > > >> > > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > > > >> > > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > >> > > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > > > >> > > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > > > myself I > > > > > >> > have > > > > > >> > > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > > > sense) > > > > > >> is a > > > > > >> > > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > > > >> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > > > >> > > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > > > >> > > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity; > > > > Mike > > > > > >> > Cole; > > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > > oriented > > > > > >> > activity > > > > > >> > > and communication > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Dear Alfredo, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You > definitely > > > > > >> noticed > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and > > developed > > > > > >> > technologies, > > > > > >> > > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > > > >> exploiters, > > > > > >> > between > > > > > >> > > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > > > opposite > > > > > >> > between > > > > > >> > > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > > > always > > > > > >> been > > > > > >> > a > > > > > >> > > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > > > cosmopolitan > > > > > >> class. > > > > > >> > > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > > > fight > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > to kill > > > > > >> > > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > > > cooperate > > > > > >> > with > > > > > >> > > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to > > receive > > > > > >> > dividends from > > > > > >> > > their enterprises located on the territory of their > > "enemy." > > > > > Today > > > > > >> > Putin's > > > > > >> > > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > > > their > > > > > >> > capitals to > > > > > >> > > this West, buy property there, send their children to > study > > > > > there > > > > > >> > and go > > > > > >> > > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > > > Poroshenko > > > > > >> - > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > president of the country that was subje > > > > > >> > > > cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > > > chocolate > > > > > >> > > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > > > >> > > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > > > States, > > > > > the > > > > > >> > policy > > > > > >> > > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > > > each > > > > > >> other > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > working people of different ethnic groups and > confessions, > > > on > > > > > >> their > > > > > >> > > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > > > >> creatures. > > > > > >> > > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity > incited > > > by > > > > > the > > > > > >> > ruling > > > > > >> > > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > > > working > > > > > >> > people > > > > > >> > > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > > > public > > > > > >> > > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > > > constructed > > > > > >> > allegedly on > > > > > >> > > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred > years > > > > ago, > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, > the > > > > same > > > > > >> task > > > > > >> > is > > > > > >> > > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > > > so-called > > > > > >> > "cultural" > > > > > >> > > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > > > biological > > > > > >> > differences > > > > > >> > > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > > > >> > > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, > but > > > > also > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > "psychology of culture". > > > > > >> > > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only > in > > > > words > > > > > >> but > > > > > >> > also > > > > > >> > > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is > > not > > > > the > > > > > >> > ability of > > > > > >> > > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of > > words, > > > > but > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > be > > > > > >> > > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the > subjects > > > of > > > > > >> labor. > > > > > >> > > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > > > believed > > > > > >> > that the > > > > > >> > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking > is > > > > > just a > > > > > >> > verbal > > > > > >> > > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver > to > > > > us, > > > > > >> then > > > > > >> > any > > > > > >> > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > > > seem > > > > > to > > > > > >> us > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant > > doing > > > > his > > > > > >> own > > > > > >> > work, > > > > > >> > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, > will > > > > look > > > > > >> > something > > > > > >> > > inferior. > > > > > >> > > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of > Vygotsky's > > > > > >> theory, > > > > > >> > open > > > > > >> > > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not > only a > > > > > >> > transition > > > > > >> > > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that > > is > > > > > >> capable > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> > > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. > This > > > > > >> implies > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> > > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > > > different > > > > > >> > way in > > > > > >> > > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This > > qualitative > > > > > >> > difference is > > > > > >> > > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of > > reality. > > > > > >> > Therefore, > > > > > >> > > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in > the > > > > true > > > > > >> > sense of > > > > > >> > > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > > > inseparable > > > > > >> part > > > > > >> > of the > > > > > >> > > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > > > the > > > > > >> domain > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> > > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an > empty > > > > > sound. > > > > > >> A > > > > > >> > word > > > > > >> > > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of > speech. > > > One > > > > > >> > cannot say > > > > > >> > > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of > the > > > > word > > > > > >> > taken > > > > > >> > > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It > is > > > > both > > > > > at > > > > > >> > one and > > > > > >> > > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > > > >> > > > nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be > that > > > of > > > > > >> > semantic > > > > > >> > > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > > > meaningful > > > > > >> > aspect of > > > > > >> > > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will > > produce > > > > > >> answers > > > > > >> > to > > > > > >> > > our questions concerning the relationship between > thinking > > > and > > > > > >> speech > > > > > >> > > because this relationship is already contained in the > unit > > > of > > > > > >> > analysis. In > > > > > >> > > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > > > unit, > > > > > we > > > > > >> > will > > > > > >> > > come to understand a great deal that is of direct > relevance > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > >> > problem > > > > > >> > > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the > nature > > > of > > > > > >> verbal > > > > > >> > > thinking." > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not > > the > > > > > >> > slightest > > > > > >> > > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > > > attempt > > > > > to > > > > > >> > combine > > > > > >> > > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with > the > > > > > school > > > > > >> > textbook > > > > > >> > > of formal logic. > > > > > >> > > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > > > detailed > > > > > >> > > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this > > analysis > > > > in > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > very > > > > > >> > > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > > > >> assertion > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> > > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a > maximally > > > > > >> aphoristic > > > > > >> > > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > > > >> > materialists, the > > > > > >> > > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is > the > > > > > >> > instrument of > > > > > >> > > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > > > generalization > > > > > >> is > > > > > >> > not a > > > > > >> > > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > > > >> > generalizing the > > > > > >> > > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means > of > > > > > >> > analyzing all > > > > > >> > > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > > > optics > > > > > of > > > > > >> > > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > > > >> ideality.) > > > > > >> > > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results > > of > > > > > >> Luria's > > > > > >> > trip > > > > > >> > > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > > > >> illiterate > > > > > >> > > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > > > >> > > > r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe > and > > > > > melon > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> > > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > > > formal > > > > > >> > logical > > > > > >> > > operations with words denoting these things, is declared > a > > > > > >> primitive > > > > > >> > > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap > > who > > > > > knows > > > > > >> > how to > > > > > >> > > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > > > the > > > > > >> melon > > > > > >> > only > > > > > >> > > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is > declared > > > > the > > > > > >> > bearer of > > > > > >> > > scientific consciousness. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > > > come > > > > > to > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > value of instruments of labor, not only for the > > distribution > > > > of > > > > > >> > material > > > > > >> > > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > > > wealth, > > > > > for > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > distribution of the ability to think, for the > distribution > > > of > > > > > >> > culture. Only > > > > > >> > > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > > > culture > > > > as > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > > > accumulated > > > > > >> by > > > > > >> > > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of > such > > > > based > > > > > >> on > > > > > >> > idea of > > > > > >> > > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > > > able > > > > to > > > > > >> get > > > > > >> > out of > > > > > >> > > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > > > arbitrariness. > > > > > >> > > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > > > set > > > > > the > > > > > >> > task of > > > > > >> > > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > > > considered > > > > > that > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > first real step in this direction was made by his friend > > and > > > > > >> student > > > > > >> > AN > > > > > >> > > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > > > >> > > > Sasha > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > >> > >; > > > > > >> > > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > > > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > > > >; > > > > > >> > Martin > > > > > >> > > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > < > > > > > >> > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > > > >> > > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > > > >> > > > ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > > > >> activity > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > communication > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > > > >> > > Dear Sasha, all, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > > > issues > > > > > at > > > > > >> > home > > > > > >> > > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have > limited > > > > > >> > participation > > > > > >> > > anywhere else than home life. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like > a > > > > > >> concrete > > > > > >> > aspect > > > > > >> > > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning > of > > > > this > > > > > >> > > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical > (real) > > > > > >> relevance > > > > > >> > to us > > > > > >> > > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is > this > > > > > >> 'real,' > > > > > >> > and is > > > > > >> > > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > > > addressing > > > > > >> any > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > everyone) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Alfredo > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > > > >> > > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > > > >> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; > Alfredo > > > > > Jornet > > > > > >> > Gil; > > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > > >> > > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > > oriented > > > > > >> > activity > > > > > >> > > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going > > to > > > > > >> discuss > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > > > most > > > > > >> > mature work. > > > > > >> > > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > > > >> "Dialectics > > > > > >> > of the > > > > > >> > > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am > aware > > > > that > > > > > >> > there is a > > > > > >> > > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > > > >> adequately > > > > > >> > > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > > > Marx's > > > > > >> > theory was > > > > > >> > > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > > > better > > > > > to > > > > > >> > study > > > > > >> > > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of > ?Das > > > > > >> Kapital?. > > > > > >> > Along > > > > > >> > > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that > the > > > > > >> > discussion of > > > > > >> > > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > > > themes. > > > > > I > > > > > >> > think > > > > > >> > > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > > > "steps", > > > > > >> but > > > > > >> > > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that > after > > > > that > > > > > >> try > > > > > >> > to rise > > > > > >> > > from it to the seco > > > > > >> > > > nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young > age, > > > it > > > > > >> seems > > > > > >> > to me > > > > > >> > > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > > > discussion > > > > > of > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > > > preparation > > > > to > > > > > >> > thinking, > > > > > >> > > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method > can > > > not > > > > > be > > > > > >> > studied > > > > > >> > > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > > > Perhaps > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> > seems > > > > > >> > > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are > not > > > > > >> familiar > > > > > >> > with > > > > > >> > > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > > > >> discussing > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > > > continue > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > carry > > > > > >> > > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of > the > > > > term > > > > > >> > activity. > > > > > >> > > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for > translators > > > > from > > > > > >> > Russian (or > > > > > >> > > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > > > very > > > > > >> > informative. > > > > > >> > > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden > completely > > > > > >> exhausted > > > > > >> > this > > > > > >> > > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > > > discuss > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > question: what is the justificati > > > > > >> > > > on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > > > Where, > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> > any > > > > > >> > > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of > > activity, > > > > not > > > > > >> > just uses > > > > > >> > > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which > it > > > is > > > > > >> used > > > > > >> > > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > > > >> activities) of > > > > > >> > > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > > > >> functions?, > > > > > >> > ?speech > > > > > >> > > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > > > >> > personality?- all > > > > > >> > > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, > with > > > > > Spinoza > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > > > >> discussing > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > > > Vygotsky > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > > > necessary > > > > > to > > > > > >> > try to > > > > > >> > > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, > proceeding > > > > from > > > > > >> THE > > > > > >> > REAL > > > > > >> > > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is > > impossible > > > > to > > > > > >> > understand > > > > > >> > > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > > > such > > > > > >> > theoretical > > > > > >> > > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > > > >> introduces a > > > > > >> > > category of object-oriented a > > > > > >> > > > ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little > use > > > > for > > > > > >> > solving > > > > > >> > > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never > said > > > > ?B?. > > > > > >> > Having > > > > > >> > > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis > > of > > > > the > > > > > >> > > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not > go > > > > > further > > > > > >> > failing > > > > > >> > > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract > category.Once > > > > > again, > > > > > >> > from > > > > > >> > > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > > > >> > > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological > Theory > > > of > > > > > >> > Activity" we > > > > > >> > > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > > > >> fundamentally > > > > > >> > new > > > > > >> > > approaches to education, based on dialectical, > > revolutionary > > > > > >> method > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> > > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary > to > > > > begin > > > > > >> not > > > > > >> > so > > > > > >> > > much - to learn to listen to each other... > > > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > > > >> > > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > > activity > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > > communication > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. > My > > > > > point > > > > > >> is > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> > > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s > analysis, > > > > and > > > > > >> > about its > > > > > >> > > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order > of > > > > the > > > > > >> > treatment > > > > > >> > > in Capital. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > > ablunden@mira.net > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3 > . > > > htm > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Of course the method of presentation must differ in > form > > > > > >> > > > from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate > the > > > > > >> > > > material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > > > >> > > > development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > > > >> > > > after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > > > >> > > > adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > > > >> > > > the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > > > >> > > > in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before > us a > > > > > >> > > > mere a priori construction. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Andy > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > > Andy Blunden > > > > > >> > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > >> > > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > > > >> > > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the > details > > > of > > > > > >> Marx?s > > > > > >> > > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > > > Grundrisse. > > > > > The > > > > > >> > two have > > > > > >> > > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the > order > > > of > > > > > >> > presentation > > > > > >> > > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From jamesma320@gmail.com Wed Nov 8 05:01:31 2017 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 13:01:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?IFJFOiAgUmU60J7RgtCyOiAgUmU6IDogT2JqZWN0IG9yaWVudGVk?= =?utf-8?q?_activity_and_communication?= In-Reply-To: <1510145644070.51396@iped.uio.no> References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> <1509961400413.22381@iped.uio.no> <625325354.7444882.1510092080294@mail.yahoo.com>, <1510145644070.51396@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <5a03002b.438b1c0a.b7147.63b8@mx.google.com> That?d be wonderful ? thank you Alfredo! James From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: 08 November 2017 12:57 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:???: Re: : Object oriented activity and communication That's an interesting point David that should spark interesting responses. Meanwhile, I'd like to let you all know that previously and following ISCAR, I asked Bakhurst to share the text "Punks versus Zombies" and he kindly informed me that it will soon be published as a chapter in an edited book, and that we will then be able to discuss it. I'll be doing my best to get that text or at least the ideas in it disseminated here. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: 08 November 2017 11:44 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: : Object oriented activity and communication I think that a conclusion can be perfectly absurd in philosophy, and yet completely correct in science. For example, the idea of free will is a problem in philosophy (partly because of the history of philosophy in religion), but it is essentially a postulate for science (because whole branches of science, including psychology, sociology and history, cease to exist without it). So the conclusion which Sasha calls absurd--that words are material and social and feelings are a void of that social, materiality--do seem scientifically correct to me. That was what I was trying to convey when I said that thoughts are quotable but feelings are not; that it is impossible to know if Sasha and I have the same feeling when we both have a toothache, but it is literally impossible NOT to know when and to what extent Sasha and I have the same thought when we use words, because the very use of words is precisely the process of coming to some kind of agreement about the nature of their meanings. As Hamlet says, "This was sometime a paradox, but now the time gives it proof." One of the plenaries in Quebec City that we haven't discussed yet was that of David Bakhurst on Ilyenkov's first run-in with Soviet philosophy, "Punks versus Zombies". One of the many important points that Bakhurst made was that, as any materialist would expect, the kind of repression that Leontiev and Ilyenkov lived under did not, seemingly, kill them, but left terrible scars on their work (not so much Leontiev's miserable article on the environment but his abject capitulation to Lysenko, and Ilyenkov's statement that Stalin had done philosophical work far more important than his own). The ending of Bakhurst's talk was, as he said, like that of a "Train to Busan": just when you think that our hero has escaped, a hand reaches out and drags him off...and the only fingerprints are those of the hero himself. David Kellogg On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Alexander Surmava < alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> wrote: > Dear Colleagues. > > I must apologize for the long silence. > Meanwhile, our discussion is becoming more and more interesting for me, > pushing for new reflections and new plans. Well, or to return to the old > plans, the implementation of which I have long postponed. > I am referring to my plans to embark on a study with the aim to clarify > the Marxist view of the concept of "ideality" - the central category of > classical philosophy, starting at least from Plato. "The dialectic of > ideality" was the last theoretical work of Ilyenkov. Meanwhile, there is > enough reasons to believe that this topic, which was of the utmost > importance for philosophy and psychology, was far from complete. > Below, I will publish a rather large post, the logic of which brings our > discussion to the discussion of the problem of ideality. > In the meantime looking ahead I want to say that Bakhtin / Voloshinov, who > emerged in our conversation with his popular essay "Marxism and the > Philosophy of Language" with his "brilliant" substitution of the category > "ideality" with the category "ideology" is a gift for our future work on > ideality, for in a concentrated form he demonstrates how a false > understanding of ideality leads to a complete break with Marxism. > > Sasha > > > ------------------------------ > *??:* Alfredo Jornet Gil > *????:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *??????????:* ???????????, 6 ?????? 2017 12:45 > *????:* [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > As a clarification, that sounds clear to me, David, thanks! I wonder how > does that sound to others, > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: 06 November 2017 10:37 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > I'll try, Alfredo. > > I think that Sasha and Haydi are arguing that if we accept language as > sign, we risk treating it as a superstructure that has freed itself from > its base, that is, the labor of the worker and the peasant, labor which has > the power to materially transform a material environment. This is a move > they oppose, because there is the danger that a semiotic superstructure > will supply itself a "different" base--that is, a base not in the laborer > who materially transforms the material environment but rather in the > thinker who ideologically transforms an ideal context and thus acts on > himself or herself but leaves the worker and the peasant in the lurch. > Both Sasha and Haydi consider Leontiev and activity as an important > countermeasure to this semanticizing tendency in Vygotsky.This is an > argument with a lot of history, and it is one that I reject. > > I don't simply reject it on behalf of the child, who has to master signs > before she or he can master tools (and even when the child can master > tools, viz. toy tools, the child must master them as signs--as > meanings--and not as a means to transform the social environment. I also > reject it on the part of the worker and the peasant, as did Brecht, as did > Vygotsky, and...as did Volosinov. For if Haydi is going to read the whole > of Volosinov, he must indeed select aspects of Volosinov that he does not > like, including Volosinov's very Marxist distinction between the way that > the peasant experiences hunger and the way that the worker experiences it: > these are indeed different poles of the same experience, and one can go > much closer to the 'we pole' than the other. (The reason why the Chinese > famine of 1959-1961 was so devestating was precisely that it was > experienced very differently in the cities than in the countryside.) > > The use of "pole" is not mine; it is that of Volosinov (p. 87). Similarly, > the use of "water into wine" is not mine; it is that of Vygotsky > (Psychology of Art, p. 243). Vygotsky is rejecting the Bukharinist notion > of Proletkult, that of the artist as a Christlike figure, multiplying bread > and fishes for the masses. For Vygotsky, this isn't much of a miracle at > all, it is precisely what peasants and workers quite without art every > single day of their working lives. If we want art to permeate life, we > cannot do it by reducing art to the level of everyday experience: that is > not art permeating life, but only the tired old nineteenth century slogan > of life permeating art, repeated as Proletkult, as Soviet socialist > realism, and consequently, as Marx would say, as farce. > > David Kellogg > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could you > > or anyone else help me understand? > > > > I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist > > approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, > reading > > the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of > verbal > > communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and the > > sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). > > > > Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila > > Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs > 99% > > of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? > > > > Thanks, > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? > > Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > Alfredo, > > I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get > > engaged in any more discussion. > > > > If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully > > and with care and attention and gratitude. > > > > You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to > > replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support > > from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece > > which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of > > the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not > > tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such > > condemnation. > > > > It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual > base. > > The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over > > one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over > ones > > become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the > > previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative > of > > their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the > > whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and > > slave owners (old and new). > > > > When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore > > but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. > > > > Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as > > measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just > a > > 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. > Here > > verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having > > co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , > > sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 > > pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship > > evil! > > Voila Voloshinov!! > > > > Best > > Haydi > > > > > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital > to > > Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, > Brecht, > > Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education > > to privileged access. > > > > How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking > > about privileged access (to immediate experience)? > > > > Here was Sasha's critique: > > > > "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience > > (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of > > object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." > > > > and that, > > > > "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal > > 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own > work, > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look > something > > inferior." > > > > Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we > > ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do > with > > exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest > > for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words > > supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the > > latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the > issue > > of democratic education? > > > > My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed > > out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems > > quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than > > some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a > > quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond > of > > Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply > > externalising something that had been formed internally but rather > > thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical > > activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) > > experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it > that > > makes me suspicious. > > > > Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has > > been mobilised in the thread: > > > > "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" > > goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and > > alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not > > primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an > > individuation of a social emotion" (D.K to Greg). > > > > I may be wrong or miss some of the background, but to me, this type of > > argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, > who > > argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on > > converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming > > magic arbitrary forces. > > > > I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it > > "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that > the > > most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of > the > > relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes > > resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a > > materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. > 40). > > If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche > and > > ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary > and > > objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that > > social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. > > > > I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an > > I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it > > is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov > > in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two > poles > > constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: > > > > "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward > > expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) > > > > and > > > > "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material > > (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a > fiction. > > It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction > from > > the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). > > > > But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness > > is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's > been > > posed here a fiction too? > > > > In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express > their > > life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their > > production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', > > 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT > > community. > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > activity and communication > > > > Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the > Philosophy > > of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one > > end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be > > communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is > > provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this > > experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, > > the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er > > lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie"). At the other end of the pole > > is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is > > over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond > sullen > > and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the > > peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians > who > > reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight > of a > > satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. > > (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both > > poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my > > English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) > > > > Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course > Brecht > > was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, > > where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He > wonders > > why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much > > more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by > > Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this > is > > the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I > > experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we > > experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically > > transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially > an > > "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an individuation of a > > social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on > > Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually > > supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help > > yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist > > Party). > > > > Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: > > > > We have hunger, hunger, hunger > > Have hunger, hunger hunger > > Have hunger, hunger hunger > > Have thirst. > > > > If we don't get something, get, get, get > > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > > >From the wall. > > > > If they don't taste good, taste, taste > > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > > >From the forest. > > > > If they don't last, last, last > > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > > >From the grave. > > > > If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice > > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > > >From the forest. > > > > (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks > into > > virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the > song > > much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" > > with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would > be > > far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) > > > > David Kellogg > > > > (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine > > Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love > > with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ > > > > dk > > > > On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > > > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open > to > > > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > > > > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > > > archived). > > > > > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think > as > > > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > > > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being > careful > > > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > > > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > > > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this > > is > > > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > > > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > > > > > -greg? > > > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just > realized > > > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma > wrote: > > > > > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > > > between > > > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged > > access > > > - > > > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of > one > > of > > > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it > happens > > > to > > > > be > > > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > > > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism > > implied > > > by > > > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this > > capacity > > > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these > are > > > > WEIRD > > > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in > some > > > > > cultural > > > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that > is > > > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm > thinking > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > > > seeing > > > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of > practical > > > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > > > Volosinov's > > > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > > > different > > > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and > not?)? > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, > but > > > > seems > > > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the > vein > > > of > > > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > > > subject/object, > > > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels > > is > > > > his > > > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is > communicated > > > is > > > > a > > > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable > thought > > > > "I'm > > > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > > > "Grandpa > > > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself". I think that > > when > > > > > Alan > > > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > > > seeing > > > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > > > concrete > > > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > > > address. > > > > > So > > > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not > confounded. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole > > flock > > > > > takes > > > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than > > "communication". > > > > > What > > > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > > > afraid > > > > > of > > > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > > > geese > > > > > are > > > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; > they > > > are > > > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > > > pepper > > > > > on > > > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your > > cold. > > > > > There > > > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream > in > > a > > > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > > > airplane > > > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated > was > > > the > > > > > >> fact > > > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. > > Adolfo > > > > > >> Garcia > > > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you > can > > > say > > > > > "My > > > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that > it > > > was > > > > > >> time > > > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was > > time > > > > for > > > > > >> breakfast". Mental processes are one thing, and material > > processes > > > > are > > > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > > > reflect > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> knowledge. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > > > >> > > > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett > > thinks > > > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has > > understood > > > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are > > actually > > > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > David > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel > their > > > > pain? > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson > > seems > > > to > > > > > >> feel > > > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they > poke > > > > their > > > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to > have > > > any > > > > > >> words > > > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and > such a > > > > way, > > > > > >> you > > > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the > expression > > > > > straight > > > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. > As > > > > Alan > > > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed > to > > a > > > > cow > > > > > in > > > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > > > called?) > > > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Julian > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on > > behalf > > > of > > > > > >> David > > > > > >> > Kellogg" > > > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > > > brain > > > > > >> > differently > > > > > >> > than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to > MRI > > > > scans > > > > > >> or > > > > > >> > computerized tomography. In fact these can and do > distinguish > > > > > >> between > > > > > >> > verbs > > > > > >> > of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky > > did > > > > > have > > > > > >> > access > > > > > >> > to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > > > words > > > > of > > > > > >> > another > > > > > >> > person. I can say, for example: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with > Marxism". > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with > Marxism." > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as > I > > > can > > > > > >> read > > > > > >> > Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > > > the > > > > > >> > actions or > > > > > >> > the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, > for > > > > > >> example: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > > > thought a > > > > > >> > word > > > > > >> > meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > > > cold." > > > > > >> This > > > > > >> > is > > > > > >> > originally a line from the revolutionary opera > "Shajiabang", > > > > > about a > > > > > >> > woman > > > > > >> > who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > > > children > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> > acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > > > officer; > > > > > >> they > > > > > >> > accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > > > all > > > > > >> people > > > > > >> > who > > > > > >> > come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they > go, > > > > > their > > > > > >> > tea is > > > > > >> > cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the > toothache > > > of > > > > > >> another > > > > > >> > person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > > > words. > > > > > >> > Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > > > >> > "immediately", > > > > > >> > because thoughts and words have already made the > dialectical > > > > > >> leap--the > > > > > >> > leap > > > > > >> > from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some > people > > > > > >> > > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to > be > > > > > >> > > the key category. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is > activity > > > > > >> > > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > > > >> > > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > > > >> > > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > > > >> > > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > > > >> > > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > > > >> > > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision > > of > > > > > >> > > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > > > >> > > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > > > >> > > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > > > >> > > this move. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa > > does > > > > > >> > > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > > > >> > > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > >> > > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > > > >> > > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > > > myself I > > > > > >> > have > > > > > >> > > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > > > sense) > > > > > >> is a > > > > > >> > > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > > > >> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > > > >> > > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > > > >> > > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity; > > > > Mike > > > > > >> > Cole; > > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > > oriented > > > > > >> > activity > > > > > >> > > and communication > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Dear Alfredo, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You > definitely > > > > > >> noticed > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and > > developed > > > > > >> > technologies, > > > > > >> > > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > > > >> exploiters, > > > > > >> > between > > > > > >> > > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > > > opposite > > > > > >> > between > > > > > >> > > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > > > always > > > > > >> been > > > > > >> > a > > > > > >> > > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > > > cosmopolitan > > > > > >> class. > > > > > >> > > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > > > fight > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > to kill > > > > > >> > > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > > > cooperate > > > > > >> > with > > > > > >> > > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to > > receive > > > > > >> > dividends from > > > > > >> > > their enterprises located on the territory of their > > "enemy." > > > > > Today > > > > > >> > Putin's > > > > > >> > > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > > > their > > > > > >> > capitals to > > > > > >> > > this West, buy property there, send their children to > study > > > > > there > > > > > >> > and go > > > > > >> > > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > > > Poroshenko > > > > > >> - > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > president of the country that was subje > > > > > >> > > > cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > > > chocolate > > > > > >> > > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > > > >> > > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > > > States, > > > > > the > > > > > >> > policy > > > > > >> > > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > > > each > > > > > >> other > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > working people of different ethnic groups and > confessions, > > > on > > > > > >> their > > > > > >> > > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > > > >> creatures. > > > > > >> > > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity > incited > > > by > > > > > the > > > > > >> > ruling > > > > > >> > > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > > > working > > > > > >> > people > > > > > >> > > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > > > public > > > > > >> > > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > > > constructed > > > > > >> > allegedly on > > > > > >> > > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred > years > > > > ago, > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, > the > > > > same > > > > > >> task > > > > > >> > is > > > > > >> > > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > > > so-called > > > > > >> > "cultural" > > > > > >> > > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > > > biological > > > > > >> > differences > > > > > >> > > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > > > >> > > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, > but > > > > also > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > "psychology of culture". > > > > > >> > > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only > in > > > > words > > > > > >> but > > > > > >> > also > > > > > >> > > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is > > not > > > > the > > > > > >> > ability of > > > > > >> > > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of > > words, > > > > but > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > be > > > > > >> > > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the > subjects > > > of > > > > > >> labor. > > > > > >> > > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > > > believed > > > > > >> > that the > > > > > >> > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking > is > > > > > just a > > > > > >> > verbal > > > > > >> > > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver > to > > > > us, > > > > > >> then > > > > > >> > any > > > > > >> > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > > > seem > > > > > to > > > > > >> us > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant > > doing > > > > his > > > > > >> own > > > > > >> > work, > > > > > >> > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, > will > > > > look > > > > > >> > something > > > > > >> > > inferior. > > > > > >> > > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of > Vygotsky's > > > > > >> theory, > > > > > >> > open > > > > > >> > > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not > only a > > > > > >> > transition > > > > > >> > > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that > > is > > > > > >> capable > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> > > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. > This > > > > > >> implies > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> > > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > > > different > > > > > >> > way in > > > > > >> > > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This > > qualitative > > > > > >> > difference is > > > > > >> > > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of > > reality. > > > > > >> > Therefore, > > > > > >> > > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in > the > > > > true > > > > > >> > sense of > > > > > >> > > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > > > inseparable > > > > > >> part > > > > > >> > of the > > > > > >> > > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > > > the > > > > > >> domain > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> > > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an > empty > > > > > sound. > > > > > >> A > > > > > >> > word > > > > > >> > > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of > speech. > > > One > > > > > >> > cannot say > > > > > >> > > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of > the > > > > word > > > > > >> > taken > > > > > >> > > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It > is > > > > both > > > > > at > > > > > >> > one and > > > > > >> > > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > > > >> > > > nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be > that > > > of > > > > > >> > semantic > > > > > >> > > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > > > meaningful > > > > > >> > aspect of > > > > > >> > > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will > > produce > > > > > >> answers > > > > > >> > to > > > > > >> > > our questions concerning the relationship between > thinking > > > and > > > > > >> speech > > > > > >> > > because this relationship is already contained in the > unit > > > of > > > > > >> > analysis. In > > > > > >> > > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > > > unit, > > > > > we > > > > > >> > will > > > > > >> > > come to understand a great deal that is of direct > relevance > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > >> > problem > > > > > >> > > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the > nature > > > of > > > > > >> verbal > > > > > >> > > thinking." > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not > > the > > > > > >> > slightest > > > > > >> > > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > > > attempt > > > > > to > > > > > >> > combine > > > > > >> > > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with > the > > > > > school > > > > > >> > textbook > > > > > >> > > of formal logic. > > > > > >> > > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > > > detailed > > > > > >> > > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this > > analysis > > > > in > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > very > > > > > >> > > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > > > >> assertion > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> > > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a > maximally > > > > > >> aphoristic > > > > > >> > > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > > > >> > materialists, the > > > > > >> > > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is > the > > > > > >> > instrument of > > > > > >> > > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > > > generalization > > > > > >> is > > > > > >> > not a > > > > > >> > > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > > > >> > generalizing the > > > > > >> > > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means > of > > > > > >> > analyzing all > > > > > >> > > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > > > optics > > > > > of > > > > > >> > > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > > > >> ideality.) > > > > > >> > > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results > > of > > > > > >> Luria's > > > > > >> > trip > > > > > >> > > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > > > >> illiterate > > > > > >> > > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > > > >> > > > r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe > and > > > > > melon > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> > > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > > > formal > > > > > >> > logical > > > > > >> > > operations with words denoting these things, is declared > a > > > > > >> primitive > > > > > >> > > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap > > who > > > > > knows > > > > > >> > how to > > > > > >> > > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > > > the > > > > > >> melon > > > > > >> > only > > > > > >> > > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is > declared > > > > the > > > > > >> > bearer of > > > > > >> > > scientific consciousness. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > > > come > > > > > to > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > value of instruments of labor, not only for the > > distribution > > > > of > > > > > >> > material > > > > > >> > > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > > > wealth, > > > > > for > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > distribution of the ability to think, for the > distribution > > > of > > > > > >> > culture. Only > > > > > >> > > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > > > culture > > > > as > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > > > accumulated > > > > > >> by > > > > > >> > > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of > such > > > > based > > > > > >> on > > > > > >> > idea of > > > > > >> > > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > > > able > > > > to > > > > > >> get > > > > > >> > out of > > > > > >> > > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > > > arbitrariness. > > > > > >> > > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > > > set > > > > > the > > > > > >> > task of > > > > > >> > > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > > > considered > > > > > that > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > first real step in this direction was made by his friend > > and > > > > > >> student > > > > > >> > AN > > > > > >> > > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > > > >> > > > Sasha > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > >> > >; > > > > > >> > > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > > > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > > > >; > > > > > >> > Martin > > > > > >> > > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > < > > > > > >> > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > > > >> > > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > > > >> > > > ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > > > >> activity > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > communication > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > > > >> > > Dear Sasha, all, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > > > issues > > > > > at > > > > > >> > home > > > > > >> > > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have > limited > > > > > >> > participation > > > > > >> > > anywhere else than home life. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like > a > > > > > >> concrete > > > > > >> > aspect > > > > > >> > > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning > of > > > > this > > > > > >> > > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical > (real) > > > > > >> relevance > > > > > >> > to us > > > > > >> > > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is > this > > > > > >> 'real,' > > > > > >> > and is > > > > > >> > > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > > > addressing > > > > > >> any > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > everyone) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Alfredo > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > > > >> > > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > > > >> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; > Alfredo > > > > > Jornet > > > > > >> > Gil; > > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > > >> > > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > > oriented > > > > > >> > activity > > > > > >> > > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going > > to > > > > > >> discuss > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > > > most > > > > > >> > mature work. > > > > > >> > > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > > > >> "Dialectics > > > > > >> > of the > > > > > >> > > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am > aware > > > > that > > > > > >> > there is a > > > > > >> > > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > > > >> adequately > > > > > >> > > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > > > Marx's > > > > > >> > theory was > > > > > >> > > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > > > better > > > > > to > > > > > >> > study > > > > > >> > > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of > ?Das > > > > > >> Kapital?. > > > > > >> > Along > > > > > >> > > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that > the > > > > > >> > discussion of > > > > > >> > > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > > > themes. > > > > > I > > > > > >> > think > > > > > >> > > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > > > "steps", > > > > > >> but > > > > > >> > > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that > after > > > > that > > > > > >> try > > > > > >> > to rise > > > > > >> > > from it to the seco > > > > > >> > > > nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young > age, > > > it > > > > > >> seems > > > > > >> > to me > > > > > >> > > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > > > discussion > > > > > of > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > > > preparation > > > > to > > > > > >> > thinking, > > > > > >> > > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method > can > > > not > > > > > be > > > > > >> > studied > > > > > >> > > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > > > Perhaps > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> > seems > > > > > >> > > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are > not > > > > > >> familiar > > > > > >> > with > > > > > >> > > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > > > >> discussing > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > > > continue > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > carry > > > > > >> > > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of > the > > > > term > > > > > >> > activity. > > > > > >> > > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for > translators > > > > from > > > > > >> > Russian (or > > > > > >> > > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > > > very > > > > > >> > informative. > > > > > >> > > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden > completely > > > > > >> exhausted > > > > > >> > this > > > > > >> > > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > > > discuss > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > question: what is the justificati > > > > > >> > > > on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > > > Where, > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> > any > > > > > >> > > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of > > activity, > > > > not > > > > > >> > just uses > > > > > >> > > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which > it > > > is > > > > > >> used > > > > > >> > > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > > > >> activities) of > > > > > >> > > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > > > >> functions?, > > > > > >> > ?speech > > > > > >> > > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > > > >> > personality?- all > > > > > >> > > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, > with > > > > > Spinoza > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > > > >> discussing > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > > > Vygotsky > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > > > necessary > > > > > to > > > > > >> > try to > > > > > >> > > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, > proceeding > > > > from > > > > > >> THE > > > > > >> > REAL > > > > > >> > > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is > > impossible > > > > to > > > > > >> > understand > > > > > >> > > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > > > such > > > > > >> > theoretical > > > > > >> > > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > > > >> introduces a > > > > > >> > > category of object-oriented a > > > > > >> > > > ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little > use > > > > for > > > > > >> > solving > > > > > >> > > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never > said > > > > ?B?. > > > > > >> > Having > > > > > >> > > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis > > of > > > > the > > > > > >> > > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not > go > > > > > further > > > > > >> > failing > > > > > >> > > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract > category.Once > > > > > again, > > > > > >> > from > > > > > >> > > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > > > >> > > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological > Theory > > > of > > > > > >> > Activity" we > > > > > >> > > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > > > >> fundamentally > > > > > >> > new > > > > > >> > > approaches to education, based on dialectical, > > revolutionary > > > > > >> method > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> > > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary > to > > > > begin > > > > > >> not > > > > > >> > so > > > > > >> > > much - to learn to listen to each other... > > > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > > > >> > > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > > activity > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > > communication > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. > My > > > > > point > > > > > >> is > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> > > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s > analysis, > > > > and > > > > > >> > about its > > > > > >> > > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order > of > > > > the > > > > > >> > treatment > > > > > >> > > in Capital. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > > ablunden@mira.net > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3 > . > > > htm > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Of course the method of presentation must differ in > form > > > > > >> > > > from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate > the > > > > > >> > > > material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > > > >> > > > development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > > > >> > > > after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > > > >> > > > adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > > > >> > > > the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > > > >> > > > in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before > us a > > > > > >> > > > mere a priori construction. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Andy > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > > Andy Blunden > > > > > >> > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > >> > > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > > > >> > > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the > details > > > of > > > > > >> Marx?s > > > > > >> > > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > > > Grundrisse. > > > > > The > > > > > >> > two have > > > > > >> > > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the > order > > > of > > > > > >> > presentation > > > > > >> > > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Wed Nov 8 06:53:11 2017 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 09:53:11 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to this with his students this way. ? There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing about things to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and self-repair ? how to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go "meta," to think about their ways of thinking. ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* , 1984. *Robert L.* Retrieved from : https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting-meta-all-the-time/ On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > multi-volume autobiography to you, > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a principal > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and literature... > > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is to look > into > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not use the > > concept, > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those theses... > > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study "perezhivanie" > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, Tsvetaeva...who all > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non concept > for > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and many > others. > >> > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not be > studied > >> without this concept. > >> > >> Completely impossible. > >> > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of sounds, thoughts > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, cognition > >> and emotion. > >> > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for instance, > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says that the > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour in the > poems > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more sensitive to > sounds > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian language and > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of rythm in > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > >> > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian databases? A poet > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > >>> as well: > >>> > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > >>> > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> Andy Blunden > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > >>>> Dear all, > >>>> > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim > >>> Hikmet, > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences at > >>> each > >>>> stage of his life, > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning > from > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, > painters > >>> and > >>>> play writers. > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from his > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > >>>> > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical approach. > >>>> > >>>> Thank you. > >>>> > >>>> Ulvi > >>>> > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table with > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was > >>> covered > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in > ?sk?dar, a > >>>> rococo > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from > the > >>>> Black > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make a > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more > precisely, > >>> a > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > >>>> blood-stained > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood > >>> rushes > >>>> to my > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea > in > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was made: > >>> death > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions on > >>> this > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this > >>> cause? > >>>> What > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if > >>> necessary! > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait to > >>>> travel, > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia here > on > >>>> this > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara > >>> from > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, > >>> wining > >>>> and > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole > >>> life in > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like > >>> Mustafa > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask yourself > >>> these > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? No. > I > >>>> first knew > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be > disabled, > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart disease, > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought > >>> about > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and walked > >>> around > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the > room > >>> in > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open my > >>> eyes. > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept > >>> blindness. > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. > Not > >>>> books or > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I am. > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s how > >>> it is > >>>> . > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > -- Robert Lake Ed.D. Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* vol.39, 2017 Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An Intellectual Genealogy. http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Wed Nov 8 06:58:05 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 16:58:05 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Thank you Robert! 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" yazd?: > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in 1984 > before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner > referred to this with his students this way. > ? > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing about things > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and self-repair ? how > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go "meta," to > think about their ways of thinking. > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > , 1984. > > *Robert L.* > > Retrieved from : > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > meta-all-the-time/ > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening > > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > > multi-volume autobiography to you, > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a > principal > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and literature... > > > > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is to look > > into > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not use the > > > concept, > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those > theses... > > > > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > "perezhivanie" > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, Tsvetaeva...who all > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non concept > > for > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and many > > others. > > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not be > > studied > > >> without this concept. > > >> > > >> Completely impossible. > > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of sounds, > thoughts > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, > cognition > > >> and emotion. > > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for > instance, > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says that the > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour in the > > poems > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more sensitive to > > sounds > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian language and > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of rythm in > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian databases? A poet > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden wrote: > > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > > >>> as well: > > >>> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > > >>> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > > >>> > > >>> Andy > > >>> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> Andy Blunden > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > >>>> Dear all, > > >>>> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim > > >>> Hikmet, > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences > at > > >>> each > > >>>> stage of his life, > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on learning > > from > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, > > painters > > >>> and > > >>>> play writers. > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from > his > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > >>>> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical > approach. > > >>>> > > >>>> Thank you. > > >>>> > > >>>> Ulvi > > >>>> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table > with > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was > > >>> covered > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in > > ?sk?dar, a > > >>>> rococo > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made from > > the > > >>>> Black > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to make > a > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more > > precisely, > > >>> a > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel de > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > > >>>> blood-stained > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood > > >>> rushes > > >>>> to my > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the sea > > in > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was > made: > > >>> death > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the questions > on > > >>> this > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for this > > >>> cause? > > >>>> What > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! How > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if > > >>> necessary! > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait > to > > >>>> travel, > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia > here > > on > > >>>> this > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to Ankara > > >>> from > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, > > >>> wining > > >>>> and > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my whole > > >>> life in > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned like > > >>> Mustafa > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask > yourself > > >>> these > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? > No. > > I > > >>>> first knew > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be > > disabled, > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart > disease, > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t thought > > >>> about > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and > walked > > >>> around > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the > > room > > >>> in > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t open > my > > >>> eyes. > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept > > >>> blindness. > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the truth. > > Not > > >>>> books or > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I > am. > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on the > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s > how > > >>> it is > > >>>> . > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > > > > > > -- > Robert Lake Ed.D. > Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* vol.39, > 2017 > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An > Intellectual Genealogy. > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must be > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > Dewey-*Democracy > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > From bferholt@gmail.com Wed Nov 8 07:58:39 2017 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 10:58:39 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and Punishment -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, formation and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is the better place to look is very interesting, and a response would have something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide because in suicide and some art you have an end point: In autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to have the closure, too. I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is helpful here. Beth On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Thank you Robert! > > 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > yazd?: > > > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in 1984 > > before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner > > referred to this with his students this way. > > ? > > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing about > things > > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and self-repair ? > how > > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go "meta," > to > > think about their ways of thinking. > > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > , 1984. > > > > *Robert L.* > > > > Retrieved from : > > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > meta-all-the-time/ > > > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening > > > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > > > multi-volume autobiography to you, > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Andy Blunden > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a > > principal > > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and literature... > > > > > > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is to look > > > into > > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not use the > > > > concept, > > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those > > theses... > > > > > > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > "perezhivanie" > > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > > > > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, Tsvetaeva...who all > > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non > concept > > > for > > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and many > > > others. > > > >> > > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not be > > > studied > > > >> without this concept. > > > >> > > > >> Completely impossible. > > > >> > > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of sounds, > > thoughts > > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, > > cognition > > > >> and emotion. > > > >> > > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for > > instance, > > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says that the > > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour in the > > > poems > > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more sensitive to > > > sounds > > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian language > and > > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of rythm in > > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > > >> > > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian databases? A > poet > > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > > > >>> as well: > > > >>> > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > >>> > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > >>> > > > >>> Andy > > > >>> > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >>> Andy Blunden > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > >>>> Dear all, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim > > > >>> Hikmet, > > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life experiences > > at > > > >>> each > > > >>>> stage of his life, > > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on > learning > > > from > > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, > > > painters > > > >>> and > > > >>>> play writers. > > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from > > his > > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical > > approach. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Thank you. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Ulvi > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table > > with > > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was > > > >>> covered > > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in > > > ?sk?dar, a > > > >>>> rococo > > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made > from > > > the > > > >>>> Black > > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the thirty-five-day, > > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to > make > > a > > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more > > > precisely, > > > >>> a > > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the H?tel > de > > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, dirty, > > > >>>> blood-stained > > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my blood > > > >>> rushes > > > >>>> to my > > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the > sea > > > in > > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was > > made: > > > >>> death > > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > questions > > on > > > >>> this > > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for > this > > > >>> cause? > > > >>>> What > > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! > How > > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if > > > >>> necessary! > > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t wait > > to > > > >>>> travel, > > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia > > here > > > on > > > >>>> this > > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to > Ankara > > > >>> from > > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a minister?women, > > > >>> wining > > > >>>> and > > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my > whole > > > >>> life in > > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned > like > > > >>> Mustafa > > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask > > yourself > > > >>> these > > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of being > > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? > > No. > > > I > > > >>>> first knew > > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be > > > disabled, > > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart > > disease, > > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t > thought > > > >>> about > > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and > > walked > > > >>> around > > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around the > > > room > > > >>> in > > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t > open > > my > > > >>> eyes. > > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept > > > >>> blindness. > > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the > truth. > > > Not > > > >>>> books or > > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where I > > am. > > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on > the > > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s > > how > > > >>> it is > > > >>>> . > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > vol.39, > > 2017 > > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An > > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must > be > > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > > Dewey-*Democracy > > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > -- Beth Ferholt Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From bferholt@gmail.com Wed Nov 8 08:07:35 2017 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 11:07:35 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and Punishment > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, formation > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center was > Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is the > better place to look is very interesting, and a response would have > something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide because in > suicide and some art you have an end point: In autobiography you have the > "I", I suppose, but you need to have the closure, too. > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is helpful here. > Beth > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> Thank you Robert! >> >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" >> yazd?: >> >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in 1984 >> > before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner >> > referred to this with his students this way. >> > ? >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing about >> things >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and self-repair ? >> how >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go "meta," >> to >> > think about their ways of thinking. >> > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* >> > , 1984. >> > >> > *Robert L.* >> > >> > Retrieved from : >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- >> > meta-all-the-time/ >> > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography >> > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks >> > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped >> > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening >> > > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's >> > > multi-volume autobiography to you, >> > > >> > > Andy >> > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > Andy Blunden >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a >> > principal >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva >> > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and literature... >> > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is to >> look >> > > into >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not use >> the >> > > > concept, >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those >> > theses... >> > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study >> > "perezhivanie" >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive. >> > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, Tsvetaeva...who all >> > > > suicided, unfortunately. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il wrote: >> > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non >> concept >> > > for >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and many >> > > others. >> > > >> >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not be >> > > studied >> > > >> without this concept. >> > > >> >> > > >> Completely impossible. >> > > >> >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of sounds, >> > thoughts >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, >> > cognition >> > > >> and emotion. >> > > >> >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for >> > instance, >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says that >> the >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour in >> the >> > > poems >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more sensitive to >> > > sounds >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian language >> and >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of rythm >> in >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) >> > > >> >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian databases? A >> poet >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden >> wrote: >> > > >> >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read >> > > >>> as well: >> > > >>> >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf >> > > >>> >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor%20Vasilyuk.pdf >> > > >>> >> > > >>> Andy >> > > >>> >> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > >>> Andy Blunden >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >> > > >>>> Dear all, >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, Nazim >> > > >>> Hikmet, >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life >> experiences >> > at >> > > >>> each >> > > >>>> stage of his life, >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on >> learning >> > > from >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, >> > > painters >> > > >>> and >> > > >>>> play writers. >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below from >> > his >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical >> > approach. >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> Thank you. >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> Ulvi >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table >> > with >> > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table was >> > > >>> covered >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in >> > > ?sk?dar, a >> > > >>>> rococo >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made >> from >> > > the >> > > >>>> Black >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the >> thirty-five-day, >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to >> make >> > a >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more >> > > precisely, >> > > >>> a >> > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the >> H?tel de >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, >> dirty, >> > > >>>> blood-stained >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my >> blood >> > > >>> rushes >> > > >>>> to my >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the >> sea >> > > in >> > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was >> > made: >> > > >>> death >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the >> questions >> > on >> > > >>> this >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for >> this >> > > >>> cause? >> > > >>>> What >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! >> How >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if >> > > >>> necessary! >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t >> wait >> > to >> > > >>>> travel, >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia >> > here >> > > on >> > > >>>> this >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to >> Ankara >> > > >>> from >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a >> minister?women, >> > > >>> wining >> > > >>>> and >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my >> whole >> > > >>> life in >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned >> like >> > > >>> Mustafa >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask >> > yourself >> > > >>> these >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of >> being >> > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without thinking? >> > No. >> > > I >> > > >>>> first knew >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be >> > > disabled, >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart >> > disease, >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t >> thought >> > > >>> about >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and >> > walked >> > > >>> around >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around >> the >> > > room >> > > >>> in >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t >> open >> > my >> > > >>> eyes. >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept >> > > >>> blindness. >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the >> truth. >> > > Not >> > > >>>> books or >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me where >> I >> > am. >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on >> the >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. That?s >> > how >> > > >>> it is >> > > >>>> . >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Robert Lake Ed.D. >> > Associate Professor >> > Social Foundations of Education >> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> > Georgia Southern University >> > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 >> > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* >> vol.39, >> > 2017 >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An >> > Intellectual Genealogy. >> > >> > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 >> > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy >> must be >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John >> > Dewey-*Democracy >> > and Education*,1916, p. 139 >> > >> > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > -- Beth Ferholt Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Wed Nov 8 08:15:12 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 18:15:12 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Thank you Beth. I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion, imagination and creativity. Congratulations. Ulvi 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" yazd?: > To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > Punishment > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > formation > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center was > > Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is the > > better place to look is very interesting, and a response would have > > something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide because in > > suicide and some art you have an end point: In autobiography you have the > > "I", I suppose, but you need to have the closure, too. > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is helpful > here. > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > >> Thank you Robert! > >> > >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > >> yazd?: > >> > >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in 1984 > >> > before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner > >> > referred to this with his students this way. > >> > ? > >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing about > >> things > >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and self-repair > ? > >> how > >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > "meta," > >> to > >> > think about their ways of thinking. > >> > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > >> > , 1984. > >> > > >> > *Robert L.* > >> > > >> > Retrieved from : > >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > >> > meta-all-the-time/ > >> > > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > >> > > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > >> > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > >> > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > >> > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening > >> > > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > >> > > multi-volume autobiography to you, > >> > > > >> > > Andy > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > > Andy Blunden > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a > >> > principal > >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > >> > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > literature... > >> > > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is to > >> look > >> > > into > >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not use > >> the > >> > > > concept, > >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those > >> > theses... > >> > > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > >> > "perezhivanie" > >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > >> > > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, Tsvetaeva...who > all > >> > > > suicided, unfortunately. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non > >> concept > >> > > for > >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and > many > >> > > others. > >> > > >> > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not be > >> > > studied > >> > > >> without this concept. > >> > > >> > >> > > >> Completely impossible. > >> > > >> > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of sounds, > >> > thoughts > >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, > >> > cognition > >> > > >> and emotion. > >> > > >> > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for > >> > instance, > >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says that > >> the > >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour in > >> the > >> > > poems > >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more sensitive > to > >> > > sounds > >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > language > >> and > >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of rythm > >> in > >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > >> > > >> > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian databases? A > >> poet > >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > >> > > >>> as well: > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> Andy > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > > >>> Andy Blunden > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> > > >>>> Dear all, > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, > Nazim > >> > > >>> Hikmet, > >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > >> experiences > >> > at > >> > > >>> each > >> > > >>>> stage of his life, > >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on > >> learning > >> > > from > >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, > >> > > painters > >> > > >>> and > >> > > >>>> play writers. > >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below > from > >> > his > >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical > >> > approach. > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> Thank you. > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> Ulvi > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A > table > >> > with > >> > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table > was > >> > > >>> covered > >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in > >> > > ?sk?dar, a > >> > > >>>> rococo > >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made > >> from > >> > > the > >> > > >>>> Black > >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > >> thirty-five-day, > >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to > >> make > >> > a > >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more > >> > > precisely, > >> > > >>> a > >> > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the > >> H?tel de > >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, > >> dirty, > >> > > >>>> blood-stained > >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my > >> blood > >> > > >>> rushes > >> > > >>>> to my > >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by > the > >> sea > >> > > in > >> > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was > >> > made: > >> > > >>> death > >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > >> questions > >> > on > >> > > >>> this > >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for > >> this > >> > > >>> cause? > >> > > >>>> What > >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! > >> How > >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, > if > >> > > >>> necessary! > >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t > >> wait > >> > to > >> > > >>>> travel, > >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > Anatolia > >> > here > >> > > on > >> > > >>>> this > >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to > >> Ankara > >> > > >>> from > >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > >> minister?women, > >> > > >>> wining > >> > > >>>> and > >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my > >> whole > >> > > >>> life in > >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned > >> like > >> > > >>> Mustafa > >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask > >> > yourself > >> > > >>> these > >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of > >> being > >> > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > thinking? > >> > No. > >> > > I > >> > > >>>> first knew > >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be > >> > > disabled, > >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart > >> > disease, > >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t > >> thought > >> > > >>> about > >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and > >> > walked > >> > > >>> around > >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around > >> the > >> > > room > >> > > >>> in > >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t > >> open > >> > my > >> > > >>> eyes. > >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can > accept > >> > > >>> blindness. > >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the > >> truth. > >> > > Not > >> > > >>>> books or > >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me > where > >> I > >> > am. > >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on > >> the > >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > That?s > >> > how > >> > > >>> it is > >> > > >>>> . > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Robert Lake Ed.D. > >> > Associate Professor > >> > Social Foundations of Education > >> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >> > Georgia Southern University > >> > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > >> > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > >> vol.39, > >> > 2017 > >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: > An > >> > Intellectual Genealogy. > >> > > >> > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > >> > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > >> must be > >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > >> > Dewey-*Democracy > >> > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Associate Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Wed Nov 8 08:23:31 2017 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 11:23:31 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks Beth! I am reminded immediately of Pinar and Grumet's notion of " Currere" the infinitive form of the Latin word curriculum. which I continually use for and with my education students. In 2004 Pinar explained that: The method of currere reconceptualized curriculum from course objectives to complicated conversation with oneself (as a 'private' intellectual), an ongoing project of self-understanding in which one becomes mobilized for engaged pedagogical action ?as a private-and-public intellectual ? with others in the social reconstruction of the public sphere". *What is Curriculum Theory.* This approach has been misrepresented as being "too Western and linear" but I think that is unfair. Your can use this anyway you want. It also reminds me of LSV'S notion of the dialectic between inner speech and public "performance." Here is a link to the groundbreaking paper from 1975. http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED104766.pdf Robert L. On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and Punishment > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, formation > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center was > Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is the > better place to look is very interesting, and a response would have > something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide because in > suicide and some art you have an end point: In autobiography you have the > "I", I suppose, but you need to have the closure, too. > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is helpful > here. > Beth > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > Thank you Robert! > > > > 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > > yazd?: > > > > > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in 1984 > > > before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner > > > referred to this with his students this way. > > > ? > > > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing about > > things > > > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and self-repair ? > > how > > > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go "meta," > > to > > > think about their ways of thinking. > > > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > > , 1984. > > > > > > *Robert L.* > > > > > > Retrieved from : > > > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > > meta-all-the-time/ > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > > > > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > > > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > > > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening > > > > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > > > > multi-volume autobiography to you, > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Andy Blunden > > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a > > > principal > > > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > literature... > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is to > look > > > > into > > > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not use > the > > > > > concept, > > > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those > > > theses... > > > > > > > > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > > "perezhivanie" > > > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > > > > > > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, Tsvetaeva...who > all > > > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non > > concept > > > > for > > > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and > many > > > > others. > > > > >> > > > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not be > > > > studied > > > > >> without this concept. > > > > >> > > > > >> Completely impossible. > > > > >> > > > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of sounds, > > > thoughts > > > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, > > > cognition > > > > >> and emotion. > > > > >> > > > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for > > > instance, > > > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says that > the > > > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour in > the > > > > poems > > > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more sensitive to > > > > sounds > > > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian language > > and > > > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of rythm > in > > > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > > > >> > > > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian databases? A > > poet > > > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > > > > >>> as well: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > >>> > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Andy > > > > >>> > > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > >>> Andy Blunden > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > >>>> Dear all, > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, > Nazim > > > > >>> Hikmet, > > > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > experiences > > > at > > > > >>> each > > > > >>>> stage of his life, > > > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on > > learning > > > > from > > > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, > > > > painters > > > > >>> and > > > > >>>> play writers. > > > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below > from > > > his > > > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical > > > approach. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Thank you. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Ulvi > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A table > > > with > > > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table > was > > > > >>> covered > > > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in > > > > ?sk?dar, a > > > > >>>> rococo > > > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made > > from > > > > the > > > > >>>> Black > > > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > thirty-five-day, > > > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to > > make > > > a > > > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more > > > > precisely, > > > > >>> a > > > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the > H?tel > > de > > > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, > dirty, > > > > >>>> blood-stained > > > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my > blood > > > > >>> rushes > > > > >>>> to my > > > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by the > > sea > > > > in > > > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision was > > > made: > > > > >>> death > > > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > > questions > > > on > > > > >>> this > > > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for > > this > > > > >>> cause? > > > > >>>> What > > > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! > > How > > > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, if > > > > >>> necessary! > > > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t > wait > > > to > > > > >>>> travel, > > > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave Anatolia > > > here > > > > on > > > > >>>> this > > > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to > > Ankara > > > > >>> from > > > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > minister?women, > > > > >>> wining > > > > >>>> and > > > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my > > whole > > > > >>> life in > > > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or drowned > > like > > > > >>> Mustafa > > > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask > > > yourself > > > > >>> these > > > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of > being > > > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > thinking? > > > No. > > > > I > > > > >>>> first knew > > > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be > > > > disabled, > > > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart > > > disease, > > > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t > > thought > > > > >>> about > > > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and > > > walked > > > > >>> around > > > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around > the > > > > room > > > > >>> in > > > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t > > open > > > my > > > > >>> eyes. > > > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can accept > > > > >>> blindness. > > > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the > > truth. > > > > Not > > > > >>>> books or > > > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me > where I > > > am. > > > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only on > > the > > > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > That?s > > > how > > > > >>> it is > > > > >>>> . > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > Associate Professor > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > > Georgia Southern University > > > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > vol.39, > > > 2017 > > > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An > > > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > must > > be > > > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > > > Dewey-*Democracy > > > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > -- Robert Lake Ed.D. Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* vol.39, 2017 Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An Intellectual Genealogy. http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 From bferholt@gmail.com Wed Nov 8 08:33:00 2017 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 11:33:00 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Robert, Thank you so much for this paper. It is just what I need to read NOW, for a chapter proposal I am reading. Wonderful. Ulvi, Thank you very much: I can send this congratulations back to my younger self : ) . Beth On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > Thanks Beth! > I am reminded immediately of Pinar and Grumet's notion of " Currere" the > infinitive form of the Latin word curriculum. > which I continually use for and with my education students. > In 2004 Pinar explained that: > The method of currere reconceptualized curriculum from course > objectives to complicated conversation with oneself > (as a 'private' intellectual), an ongoing project of self-understanding > in which one becomes mobilized for engaged pedagogical action > ?as a private-and-public intellectual ? with others in the social > reconstruction of the public sphere". *What is Curriculum Theory.* > > This approach has been misrepresented as being "too Western and linear" > but I think that is unfair. Your can use this anyway you want. It also > reminds me of LSV'S notion of the dialectic between inner speech > and public "performance." > > Here is a link to the groundbreaking paper from 1975. > > http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED104766.pdf > > Robert L. > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > Punishment > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > formation > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center was > > Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is the > > better place to look is very interesting, and a response would have > > something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide because in > > suicide and some art you have an end point: In autobiography you have the > > "I", I suppose, but you need to have the closure, too. > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is helpful > > here. > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > Thank you Robert! > > > > > > 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > > > yazd?: > > > > > > > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > > > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in 1984 > > > > before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner > > > > referred to this with his students this way. > > > > ? > > > > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing about > > > things > > > > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > self-repair ? > > > how > > > > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > "meta," > > > to > > > > think about their ways of thinking. > > > > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > > > , 1984. > > > > > > > > *Robert L.* > > > > > > > > Retrieved from : > > > > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > > > meta-all-the-time/ > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > > > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > > > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > > > > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > > > > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening > > > > > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > > > > > multi-volume autobiography to you, > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > Andy Blunden > > > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a > > > > principal > > > > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > > > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > > literature... > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is to > > look > > > > > into > > > > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not use > > the > > > > > > concept, > > > > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those > > > > theses... > > > > > > > > > > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > > > "perezhivanie" > > > > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, Tsvetaeva...who > > all > > > > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non > > > concept > > > > > for > > > > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and > > many > > > > > others. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not > be > > > > > studied > > > > > >> without this concept. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Completely impossible. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of sounds, > > > > thoughts > > > > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, > > > > cognition > > > > > >> and emotion. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for > > > > instance, > > > > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says that > > the > > > > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour in > > the > > > > > poems > > > > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more sensitive > to > > > > > sounds > > > > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > language > > > and > > > > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of > rythm > > in > > > > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian databases? A > > > poet > > > > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > > > > > >>> as well: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Andy > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > >>> Andy Blunden > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > >>>> Dear all, > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, > > Nazim > > > > > >>> Hikmet, > > > > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > experiences > > > > at > > > > > >>> each > > > > > >>>> stage of his life, > > > > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on > > > learning > > > > > from > > > > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great poets, > > > > > painters > > > > > >>> and > > > > > >>>> play writers. > > > > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below > > from > > > > his > > > > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical > > > > approach. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Thank you. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Ulvi > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A > table > > > > with > > > > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval table > > was > > > > > >>> covered > > > > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house in > > > > > ?sk?dar, a > > > > > >>>> rococo > > > > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I made > > > from > > > > > the > > > > > >>>> Black > > > > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > thirty-five-day, > > > > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > > > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, to > > > make > > > > a > > > > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more > > > > > precisely, > > > > > >>> a > > > > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the > > H?tel > > > de > > > > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, > > dirty, > > > > > >>>> blood-stained > > > > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my > > blood > > > > > >>> rushes > > > > > >>>> to my > > > > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by > the > > > sea > > > > > in > > > > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision > was > > > > made: > > > > > >>> death > > > > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > > > questions > > > > on > > > > > >>> this > > > > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice for > > > this > > > > > >>> cause? > > > > > >>>> What > > > > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? > Yes! > > > How > > > > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my life, > if > > > > > >>> necessary! > > > > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You can?t > > wait > > > > to > > > > > >>>> travel, > > > > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > Anatolia > > > > here > > > > > on > > > > > >>>> this > > > > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back to > > > Ankara > > > > > >>> from > > > > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > minister?women, > > > > > >>> wining > > > > > >>>> and > > > > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend my > > > whole > > > > > >>> life in > > > > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > drowned > > > like > > > > > >>> Mustafa > > > > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask > > > > yourself > > > > > >>> these > > > > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of > > being > > > > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > > thinking? > > > > No. > > > > > I > > > > > >>>> first knew > > > > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to be > > > > > disabled, > > > > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, heart > > > > disease, > > > > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t > > > thought > > > > > >>> about > > > > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight and > > > > walked > > > > > >>> around > > > > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked around > > the > > > > > room > > > > > >>> in > > > > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I didn?t > > > open > > > > my > > > > > >>> eyes. > > > > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can > accept > > > > > >>> blindness. > > > > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is the > > > truth. > > > > > Not > > > > > >>>> books or > > > > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me > > where I > > > > am. > > > > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only > on > > > the > > > > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > > That?s > > > > how > > > > > >>> it is > > > > > >>>> . > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > > Associate Professor > > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > > > Georgia Southern University > > > > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > > vol.39, > > > > 2017 > > > > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: > An > > > > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > > > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > > > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > > must > > > be > > > > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > > > > Dewey-*Democracy > > > > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Associate Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > -- > Robert Lake Ed.D. > Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* vol.39, > 2017 > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An > Intellectual Genealogy. > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must be > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > Dewey-*Democracy > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > -- Beth Ferholt Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Wed Nov 8 08:41:55 2017 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 11:41:55 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: You are welcome. I can't wait to see what you come up with. Meanwhile, I love charts. RL https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://educ640.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/8/11288939/9629668.png%3F1375067645&imgrefurl=https://educ640.weebly.com/currere.html&h=535& On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > Robert, Thank you so much for this paper. It is just what I need to read > NOW, for a chapter proposal I am reading. Wonderful. > Ulvi, Thank you very much: I can send this congratulations back to my > younger self : ) . > Beth > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Robert Lake > wrote: > > > Thanks Beth! > > I am reminded immediately of Pinar and Grumet's notion of " Currere" the > > infinitive form of the Latin word curriculum. > > which I continually use for and with my education students. > > In 2004 Pinar explained that: > > The method of currere reconceptualized curriculum from course > > objectives to complicated conversation with oneself > > (as a 'private' intellectual), an ongoing project of > self-understanding > > in which one becomes mobilized for engaged pedagogical action > > ?as a private-and-public intellectual ? with others in the social > > reconstruction of the public sphere". *What is Curriculum Theory.* > > > > This approach has been misrepresented as being "too Western and linear" > > but I think that is unfair. Your can use this anyway you want. It also > > reminds me of LSV'S notion of the dialectic between inner speech > > and public "performance." > > > > Here is a link to the groundbreaking paper from 1975. > > > > http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED104766.pdf > > > > Robert L. > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > > Punishment > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > > formation > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center was > > > Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is the > > > better place to look is very interesting, and a response would have > > > something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide because in > > > suicide and some art you have an end point: In autobiography you have > the > > > "I", I suppose, but you need to have the closure, too. > > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows > > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is helpful > > > here. > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > > > Thank you Robert! > > > > > > > > 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" < > boblake@georgiasouthern.edu> > > > > yazd?: > > > > > > > > > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > > > > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in > 1984 > > > > > before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner > > > > > referred to this with his students this way. > > > > > ? > > > > > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing about > > > > things > > > > > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > > self-repair ? > > > > how > > > > > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > > "meta," > > > > to > > > > > think about their ways of thinking. > > > > > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > > > > , 1984. > > > > > > > > > > *Robert L.* > > > > > > > > > > Retrieved from : > > > > > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > > > > meta-all-the-time/ > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > > > > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > > > > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > > > > > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > > > > > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening > > > > > > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > > > > > > multi-volume autobiography to you, > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > Andy Blunden > > > > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a > > > > > principal > > > > > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > > > > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > > > literature... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is > to > > > look > > > > > > into > > > > > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not > use > > > the > > > > > > > concept, > > > > > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those > > > > > theses... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > > > > "perezhivanie" > > > > > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > Tsvetaeva...who > > > all > > > > > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non > > > > concept > > > > > > for > > > > > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and > > > many > > > > > > others. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not > > be > > > > > > studied > > > > > > >> without this concept. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Completely impossible. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > sounds, > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, > > > > > cognition > > > > > > >> and emotion. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for > > > > > instance, > > > > > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says > that > > > the > > > > > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour > in > > > the > > > > > > poems > > > > > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > sensitive > > to > > > > > > sounds > > > > > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > > language > > > > and > > > > > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of > > rythm > > > in > > > > > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > databases? A > > > > poet > > > > > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > > > > > > >>> as well: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Andy > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > >>> Andy Blunden > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > > >>>> Dear all, > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, > > > Nazim > > > > > > >>> Hikmet, > > > > > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > > experiences > > > > > at > > > > > > >>> each > > > > > > >>>> stage of his life, > > > > > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on > > > > learning > > > > > > from > > > > > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great > poets, > > > > > > painters > > > > > > >>> and > > > > > > >>>> play writers. > > > > > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below > > > from > > > > > his > > > > > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical > > > > > approach. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Thank you. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Ulvi > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A > > table > > > > > with > > > > > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval > table > > > was > > > > > > >>> covered > > > > > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house > in > > > > > > ?sk?dar, a > > > > > > >>>> rococo > > > > > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I > made > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > >>>> Black > > > > > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > > thirty-five-day, > > > > > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > > > > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, > to > > > > make > > > > > a > > > > > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more > > > > > > precisely, > > > > > > >>> a > > > > > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the > > > H?tel > > > > de > > > > > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, > > > dirty, > > > > > > >>>> blood-stained > > > > > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my > > > blood > > > > > > >>> rushes > > > > > > >>>> to my > > > > > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by > > the > > > > sea > > > > > > in > > > > > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision > > was > > > > > made: > > > > > > >>> death > > > > > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > > > > questions > > > > > on > > > > > > >>> this > > > > > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice > for > > > > this > > > > > > >>> cause? > > > > > > >>>> What > > > > > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? > > Yes! > > > > How > > > > > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my > life, > > if > > > > > > >>> necessary! > > > > > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You > can?t > > > wait > > > > > to > > > > > > >>>> travel, > > > > > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > > Anatolia > > > > > here > > > > > > on > > > > > > >>>> this > > > > > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back > to > > > > Ankara > > > > > > >>> from > > > > > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > > minister?women, > > > > > > >>> wining > > > > > > >>>> and > > > > > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend > my > > > > whole > > > > > > >>> life in > > > > > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > > drowned > > > > like > > > > > > >>> Mustafa > > > > > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask > > > > > yourself > > > > > > >>> these > > > > > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of > > > being > > > > > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > > > thinking? > > > > > No. > > > > > > I > > > > > > >>>> first knew > > > > > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to > be > > > > > > disabled, > > > > > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, > heart > > > > > disease, > > > > > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t > > > > thought > > > > > > >>> about > > > > > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight > and > > > > > walked > > > > > > >>> around > > > > > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked > around > > > the > > > > > > room > > > > > > >>> in > > > > > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I > didn?t > > > > open > > > > > my > > > > > > >>> eyes. > > > > > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can > > accept > > > > > > >>> blindness. > > > > > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is > the > > > > truth. > > > > > > Not > > > > > > >>>> books or > > > > > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me > > > where I > > > > > am. > > > > > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only > > on > > > > the > > > > > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > > > That?s > > > > > how > > > > > > >>> it is > > > > > > >>>> . > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > > > Associate Professor > > > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > > > > Georgia Southern University > > > > > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > > > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > > > vol.39, > > > > > 2017 > > > > > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social > Imagination: > > An > > > > > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > > > > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > > > must > > > > be > > > > > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > > > > > Dewey-*Democracy > > > > > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > vol.39, > > 2017 > > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An > > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must > be > > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > > Dewey-*Democracy > > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > -- Robert Lake Ed.D. Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* vol.39, 2017 Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An Intellectual Genealogy. http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Wed Nov 8 10:13:33 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 20:13:33 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Berth, >From your article with Nillson: to describe a perezhivanie, just described as ?the frame that makes life like art,? as an action: a means of creating the aesthetic form of consciousness. Then, we can suppose that a poet, as an artist, if he is especially a communist one, loaded with consciousness, who strives for creating the aesthetic form of consciousness for others, can live life as a perezhivanie and can us make use of his own life to "teach life to others" and "to fasten development of consciousness" (these two latter belon to Nazim Hikmet, communist poet). I think your article with Nillson will be a very enligtening one. Ulvi On 8 November 2017 at 18:33, Beth Ferholt wrote: > Robert, Thank you so much for this paper. It is just what I need to read > NOW, for a chapter proposal I am reading. Wonderful. > Ulvi, Thank you very much: I can send this congratulations back to my > younger self : ) . > Beth > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Robert Lake > wrote: > > > Thanks Beth! > > I am reminded immediately of Pinar and Grumet's notion of " Currere" the > > infinitive form of the Latin word curriculum. > > which I continually use for and with my education students. > > In 2004 Pinar explained that: > > The method of currere reconceptualized curriculum from course > > objectives to complicated conversation with oneself > > (as a 'private' intellectual), an ongoing project of > self-understanding > > in which one becomes mobilized for engaged pedagogical action > > ?as a private-and-public intellectual ? with others in the social > > reconstruction of the public sphere". *What is Curriculum Theory.* > > > > This approach has been misrepresented as being "too Western and linear" > > but I think that is unfair. Your can use this anyway you want. It also > > reminds me of LSV'S notion of the dialectic between inner speech > > and public "performance." > > > > Here is a link to the groundbreaking paper from 1975. > > > > http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED104766.pdf > > > > Robert L. > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > > Punishment > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > > formation > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center was > > > Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is the > > > better place to look is very interesting, and a response would have > > > something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide because in > > > suicide and some art you have an end point: In autobiography you have > the > > > "I", I suppose, but you need to have the closure, too. > > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows > > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is helpful > > > here. > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > > > Thank you Robert! > > > > > > > > 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" < > boblake@georgiasouthern.edu> > > > > yazd?: > > > > > > > > > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > > > > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in > 1984 > > > > > before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner > > > > > referred to this with his students this way. > > > > > ? > > > > > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing about > > > > things > > > > > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > > self-repair ? > > > > how > > > > > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > > "meta," > > > > to > > > > > think about their ways of thinking. > > > > > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > > > > , 1984. > > > > > > > > > > *Robert L.* > > > > > > > > > > Retrieved from : > > > > > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > > > > meta-all-the-time/ > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > > > > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > > > > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > > > > > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > > > > > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening > > > > > > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > > > > > > multi-volume autobiography to you, > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > Andy Blunden > > > > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be a > > > > > principal > > > > > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > > > > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > > > literature... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is > to > > > look > > > > > > into > > > > > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not > use > > > the > > > > > > > concept, > > > > > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in those > > > > > theses... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > > > > "perezhivanie" > > > > > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > Tsvetaeva...who > > > all > > > > > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua non > > > > concept > > > > > > for > > > > > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, and > > > many > > > > > > others. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should not > > be > > > > > > studied > > > > > > >> without this concept. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Completely impossible. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > sounds, > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and affect, > > > > > cognition > > > > > > >> and emotion. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because for > > > > > instance, > > > > > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says > that > > > the > > > > > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on colour > in > > > the > > > > > > poems > > > > > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > sensitive > > to > > > > > > sounds > > > > > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > > language > > > > and > > > > > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of > > rythm > > > in > > > > > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > databases? A > > > > poet > > > > > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > > > > > > >>> as well: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Andy > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > >>> Andy Blunden > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > > >>>> Dear all, > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and playwright, > > > Nazim > > > > > > >>> Hikmet, > > > > > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > > experiences > > > > > at > > > > > > >>> each > > > > > > >>>> stage of his life, > > > > > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on > > > > learning > > > > > > from > > > > > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great > poets, > > > > > > painters > > > > > > >>> and > > > > > > >>>> play writers. > > > > > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section below > > > from > > > > > his > > > > > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a theoretical > > > > > approach. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Thank you. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Ulvi > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A > > table > > > > > with > > > > > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval > table > > > was > > > > > > >>> covered > > > > > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house > in > > > > > > ?sk?dar, a > > > > > > >>>> rococo > > > > > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I > made > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > >>>> Black > > > > > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > > thirty-five-day, > > > > > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > > > > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in short, > to > > > > make > > > > > a > > > > > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s descendant?more > > > > > > precisely, > > > > > > >>> a > > > > > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in the > > > H?tel > > > > de > > > > > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a tattered, > > > dirty, > > > > > > >>>> blood-stained > > > > > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and my > > > blood > > > > > > >>> rushes > > > > > > >>>> to my > > > > > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house by > > the > > > > sea > > > > > > in > > > > > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The decision > > was > > > > > made: > > > > > > >>> death > > > > > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > > > > questions > > > > > on > > > > > > >>> this > > > > > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice > for > > > > this > > > > > > >>> cause? > > > > > > >>>> What > > > > > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? > > Yes! > > > > How > > > > > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my > life, > > if > > > > > > >>> necessary! > > > > > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You > can?t > > > wait > > > > > to > > > > > > >>>> travel, > > > > > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > > Anatolia > > > > > here > > > > > > on > > > > > > >>>> this > > > > > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back > to > > > > Ankara > > > > > > >>> from > > > > > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > > minister?women, > > > > > > >>> wining > > > > > > >>>> and > > > > > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can spend > my > > > > whole > > > > > > >>> life in > > > > > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > > drowned > > > > like > > > > > > >>> Mustafa > > > > > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you ask > > > > > yourself > > > > > > >>> these > > > > > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid of > > > being > > > > > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > > > thinking? > > > > > No. > > > > > > I > > > > > > >>>> first knew > > > > > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to > be > > > > > > disabled, > > > > > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, > heart > > > > > disease, > > > > > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I hadn?t > > > > thought > > > > > > >>> about > > > > > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight > and > > > > > walked > > > > > > >>> around > > > > > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked > around > > > the > > > > > > room > > > > > > >>> in > > > > > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I > didn?t > > > > open > > > > > my > > > > > > >>> eyes. > > > > > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can > > accept > > > > > > >>> blindness. > > > > > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is > the > > > > truth. > > > > > > Not > > > > > > >>>> books or > > > > > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me > > > where I > > > > > am. > > > > > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen only > > on > > > > the > > > > > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > > > That?s > > > > > how > > > > > > >>> it is > > > > > > >>>> . > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > > > Associate Professor > > > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > > > > Georgia Southern University > > > > > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > > > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > > > vol.39, > > > > > 2017 > > > > > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social > Imagination: > > An > > > > > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > > > > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > > > must > > > > be > > > > > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > > > > > Dewey-*Democracy > > > > > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > vol.39, > > 2017 > > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An > > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must > be > > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > > Dewey-*Democracy > > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > From feine@duq.edu Wed Nov 8 14:17:44 2017 From: feine@duq.edu (Elizabeth Fein) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:17:44 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Deadline 12/1 for APA Division 5 Awards for Qualitative Research Message-ID: Dear xmca colleagues, December 1st is the deadline to submit nominations for the 2018 American Psychological Association Division 5 awards for outstanding qualitative work in psychology. Please consider helping APA recognize the excellent work being done through qualitative methods, by taking the time to nominate a mentor, colleague, or recent graduate whose work is worthy of recognition. The awards are as follows: Distinguished Contributions in Qualitative Inquiry Award Distinguished Contributions to Teaching and Mentoring in Qualitative Inquiry Award Distinguished Early Career Contributions in Qualitative Inquiry Award Distinguished Dissertation in Qualitative Inquiry Award The Div 5 Awards page: http://www.apadivisions.org/division-5/awards/index.aspx has more information on eligibility and prior recipients. All award recipients will be given an awards plaque and an honorary one-year membership in Div. 5. Recipients attending the 2018 APA convention will be honored at the Div. 5 Awards Symposium where each will have the opportunity to make a brief presentation. Neither the nominator nor the nominee need be a current or former member of either APA or Div. 5. Both self-nominations and nominations by others will be considered. Detailed nomination instructions for each award can be found on the Div. 5 awards page on the website. Please send all requested nomination materials by email to Deborah Bandalos, chair of the 2018 Awards Committee, by Dec. 1, 2017. A confirmation email will be sent when an award package is complete. The outcome of the review process will be announced by March 15, 2018. Should you have any questions concerning the awards, the nomination process, and/or the review process, please contact Deborah. Best, Elizabeth -- Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Psychology Duquesne University From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Thu Nov 9 00:20:19 2017 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 08:20:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: This ought to be of interest - In the 'Principles of Art' Collingwood writes that ?[e]very utterance and every gesture that each one of us makes is a work of art? (P. Art, 285). See https://www.academia.edu/35044244/Landes_-_Collingwoods_Difficult_Ethics_2010_APA_Paper_ for discussion -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il Sent: 08 November 2017 16:15 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences Thank you Beth. I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion, imagination and creativity. Congratulations. Ulvi 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" yazd?: > To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > Punishment > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > formation > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center > > was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is > > the better place to look is very interesting, and a response would > > have something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide > > because in suicide and some art you have an end point: In > > autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to have the closure, too. > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is > > helpful > here. > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > >> Thank you Robert! > >> > >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > >> > >> yazd?: > >> > >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in > >> > 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to this > >> > with his students this way. > >> > ? > >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing > >> > about > >> things > >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > >> > self-repair > ? > >> how > >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > "meta," > >> to > >> > think about their ways of thinking. > >> > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > >> > , 1984. > >> > > >> > *Robert L.* > >> > > >> > Retrieved from : > >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > >> > meta-all-the-time/ > >> > > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > >> > > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > >> > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks back > >> > > over their life, and the experiences which have shaped them, > >> > > reassessing how they responded to events intervening in their > >> > > life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's multi-volume > >> > > autobiography to you, > >> > > > >> > > Andy > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > > Andy Blunden > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be > >> > > > a > >> > principal > >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > >> > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > literature... > >> > > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is > >> > > > to > >> look > >> > > into > >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not > >> > > > use > >> the > >> > > > concept, > >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in > >> > > > those > >> > theses... > >> > > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > >> > "perezhivanie" > >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > >> > > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > >> > > > Tsvetaeva...who > all > >> > > > suicided, unfortunately. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua > >> > > >> non > >> concept > >> > > for > >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, > >> > > >> and > many > >> > > others. > >> > > >> > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should > >> > > >> not be > >> > > studied > >> > > >> without this concept. > >> > > >> > >> > > >> Completely impossible. > >> > > >> > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > >> > > >> sounds, > >> > thoughts > >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and > >> > > >> affect, > >> > cognition > >> > > >> and emotion. > >> > > >> > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because > >> > > >> for > >> > instance, > >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says > >> > > >> that > >> the > >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on > >> > > >> colour in > >> the > >> > > poems > >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > >> > > >> sensitive > to > >> > > sounds > >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > language > >> and > >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of > >> > > >> rythm > >> in > >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > >> > > >> > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > >> > > >> databases? A > >> poet > >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > >> > > >> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > >> > > >>> as well: > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> Andy > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >>> - > >> > > >>> Andy Blunden > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> > > >>>> Dear all, > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and > >> > > >>>> playwright, > Nazim > >> > > >>> Hikmet, > >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > >> experiences > >> > at > >> > > >>> each > >> > > >>>> stage of his life, > >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on > >> learning > >> > > from > >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great > >> > > >>>> poets, > >> > > painters > >> > > >>> and > >> > > >>>> play writers. > >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section > >> > > >>>> below > from > >> > his > >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a > >> > > >>>> theoretical > >> > approach. > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> Thank you. > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> Ulvi > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A > table > >> > with > >> > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval > >> > > >>>> table > was > >> > > >>> covered > >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house > >> > > >>>> in > >> > > ?sk?dar, a > >> > > >>>> rococo > >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I > >> > > >>>> made > >> from > >> > > the > >> > > >>>> Black > >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > >> thirty-five-day, > >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in > >> > > >>>> short, to > >> make > >> > a > >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s > >> > > >>>> descendant?more > >> > > precisely, > >> > > >>> a > >> > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in > >> > > >>>> the > >> H?tel de > >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a > >> > > >>>> tattered, > >> dirty, > >> > > >>>> blood-stained > >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and > >> > > >>>> my > >> blood > >> > > >>> rushes > >> > > >>>> to my > >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house > >> > > >>>> by > the > >> sea > >> > > in > >> > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The > >> > > >>>> decision was > >> > made: > >> > > >>> death > >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > >> questions > >> > on > >> > > >>> this > >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice > >> > > >>>> for > >> this > >> > > >>> cause? > >> > > >>>> What > >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? Yes! > >> How > >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my > >> > > >>>> life, > if > >> > > >>> necessary! > >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You > >> > > >>>> can?t > >> wait > >> > to > >> > > >>>> travel, > >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > Anatolia > >> > here > >> > > on > >> > > >>>> this > >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back > >> > > >>>> to > >> Ankara > >> > > >>> from > >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > >> minister?women, > >> > > >>> wining > >> > > >>>> and > >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can > >> > > >>>> spend my > >> whole > >> > > >>> life in > >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > >> > > >>>> drowned > >> like > >> > > >>> Mustafa > >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you > >> > > >>>> ask > >> > yourself > >> > > >>> these > >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid > >> > > >>>> of > >> being > >> > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > thinking? > >> > No. > >> > > I > >> > > >>>> first knew > >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to > >> > > >>>> be > >> > > disabled, > >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, > >> > > >>>> heart > >> > disease, > >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I > >> > > >>>> hadn?t > >> thought > >> > > >>> about > >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight > >> > > >>>> and > >> > walked > >> > > >>> around > >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked > >> > > >>>> around > >> the > >> > > room > >> > > >>> in > >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I > >> > > >>>> didn?t > >> open > >> > my > >> > > >>> eyes. > >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can > accept > >> > > >>> blindness. > >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is > >> > > >>>> the > >> truth. > >> > > Not > >> > > >>>> books or > >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me > where > >> I > >> > am. > >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen > >> > > >>>> only on > >> the > >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > That?s > >> > how > >> > > >>> it is > >> > > >>>> . > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Robert Lake Ed.D. > >> > Associate Professor > >> > Social Foundations of Education > >> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > >> > University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of > >> > *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > >> vol.39, > >> > 2017 > >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: > An > >> > Intellectual Genealogy. > >> > > >> > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > >> > Webpage: > >> > https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > >> must be > >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* > >> > John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Associate Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City > University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Thu Nov 9 00:30:53 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 10:30:53 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: especially if the writer conceives himself a realist, a "socialist realist" without identifying himself with some "dry" aspects of it in socialist literature, distancing himself rom triumphalism etc On 9 November 2017 at 10:20, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > This ought to be of interest - In the 'Principles of Art' Collingwood > writes that ?[e]very utterance > and every gesture that each one of us makes is a work of art? (P. Art, > 285). See https://www.academia.edu/35044244/Landes_-_ > Collingwoods_Difficult_Ethics_2010_APA_Paper_ for discussion > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > Sent: 08 November 2017 16:15 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from > life experiences > > Thank you Beth. > I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion, > imagination and creativity. > > Congratulations. > > Ulvi > > 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" yazd?: > > > To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > > Punishment > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > > formation > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center > > > was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is > > > the better place to look is very interesting, and a response would > > > have something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide > > > because in suicide and some art you have an end point: In > > > autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to have the > closure, too. > > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows > > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is > > > helpful > > here. > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > >> Thank you Robert! > > >> > > >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > > >> > > >> yazd?: > > >> > > >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in > > >> > 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to this > > >> > with his students this way. > > >> > ? > > >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing > > >> > about > > >> things > > >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > > >> > self-repair > > ? > > >> how > > >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > > "meta," > > >> to > > >> > think about their ways of thinking. > > >> > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > >> > , 1984. > > >> > > > >> > *Robert L.* > > >> > > > >> > Retrieved from : > > >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > >> > meta-all-the-time/ > > >> > > > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > >> > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks back > > >> > > over their life, and the experiences which have shaped them, > > >> > > reassessing how they responded to events intervening in their > > >> > > life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's multi-volume > > >> > > autobiography to you, > > >> > > > > >> > > Andy > > >> > > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be > > >> > > > a > > >> > principal > > >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > >> > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > > literature... > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is > > >> > > > to > > >> look > > >> > > into > > >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not > > >> > > > use > > >> the > > >> > > > concept, > > >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in > > >> > > > those > > >> > theses... > > >> > > > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > >> > "perezhivanie" > > >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > > >> > > > Tsvetaeva...who > > all > > >> > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua > > >> > > >> non > > >> concept > > >> > > for > > >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, > > >> > > >> and > > many > > >> > > others. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should > > >> > > >> not be > > >> > > studied > > >> > > >> without this concept. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Completely impossible. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > > >> > > >> sounds, > > >> > thoughts > > >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and > > >> > > >> affect, > > >> > cognition > > >> > > >> and emotion. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because > > >> > > >> for > > >> > instance, > > >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says > > >> > > >> that > > >> the > > >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on > > >> > > >> colour in > > >> the > > >> > > poems > > >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > > >> > > >> sensitive > > to > > >> > > sounds > > >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > > language > > >> and > > >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of > > >> > > >> rythm > > >> in > > >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > > >> > > >> databases? A > > >> poet > > >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > >> > > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > > >> > > >>> as well: > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> Andy > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >>> - > > >> > > >>> Andy Blunden > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > >> > > >>>> Dear all, > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and > > >> > > >>>> playwright, > > Nazim > > >> > > >>> Hikmet, > > >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > >> experiences > > >> > at > > >> > > >>> each > > >> > > >>>> stage of his life, > > >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on > > >> learning > > >> > > from > > >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great > > >> > > >>>> poets, > > >> > > painters > > >> > > >>> and > > >> > > >>>> play writers. > > >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section > > >> > > >>>> below > > from > > >> > his > > >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a > > >> > > >>>> theoretical > > >> > approach. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Thank you. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Ulvi > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A > > table > > >> > with > > >> > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval > > >> > > >>>> table > > was > > >> > > >>> covered > > >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house > > >> > > >>>> in > > >> > > ?sk?dar, a > > >> > > >>>> rococo > > >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I > > >> > > >>>> made > > >> from > > >> > > the > > >> > > >>>> Black > > >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > >> thirty-five-day, > > >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in > > >> > > >>>> short, to > > >> make > > >> > a > > >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s > > >> > > >>>> descendant?more > > >> > > precisely, > > >> > > >>> a > > >> > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in > > >> > > >>>> the > > >> H?tel de > > >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a > > >> > > >>>> tattered, > > >> dirty, > > >> > > >>>> blood-stained > > >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and > > >> > > >>>> my > > >> blood > > >> > > >>> rushes > > >> > > >>>> to my > > >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house > > >> > > >>>> by > > the > > >> sea > > >> > > in > > >> > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The > > >> > > >>>> decision was > > >> > made: > > >> > > >>> death > > >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > > >> questions > > >> > on > > >> > > >>> this > > >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice > > >> > > >>>> for > > >> this > > >> > > >>> cause? > > >> > > >>>> What > > >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? > Yes! > > >> How > > >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my > > >> > > >>>> life, > > if > > >> > > >>> necessary! > > >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You > > >> > > >>>> can?t > > >> wait > > >> > to > > >> > > >>>> travel, > > >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > > Anatolia > > >> > here > > >> > > on > > >> > > >>>> this > > >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back > > >> > > >>>> to > > >> Ankara > > >> > > >>> from > > >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > >> minister?women, > > >> > > >>> wining > > >> > > >>>> and > > >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can > > >> > > >>>> spend my > > >> whole > > >> > > >>> life in > > >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > > >> > > >>>> drowned > > >> like > > >> > > >>> Mustafa > > >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you > > >> > > >>>> ask > > >> > yourself > > >> > > >>> these > > >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid > > >> > > >>>> of > > >> being > > >> > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > > thinking? > > >> > No. > > >> > > I > > >> > > >>>> first knew > > >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to > > >> > > >>>> be > > >> > > disabled, > > >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, > > >> > > >>>> heart > > >> > disease, > > >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I > > >> > > >>>> hadn?t > > >> thought > > >> > > >>> about > > >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight > > >> > > >>>> and > > >> > walked > > >> > > >>> around > > >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked > > >> > > >>>> around > > >> the > > >> > > room > > >> > > >>> in > > >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I > > >> > > >>>> didn?t > > >> open > > >> > my > > >> > > >>> eyes. > > >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can > > accept > > >> > > >>> blindness. > > >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is > > >> > > >>>> the > > >> truth. > > >> > > Not > > >> > > >>>> books or > > >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me > > where > > >> I > > >> > am. > > >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen > > >> > > >>>> only on > > >> the > > >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > > That?s > > >> > how > > >> > > >>> it is > > >> > > >>>> . > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > >> > Associate Professor > > >> > Social Foundations of Education > > >> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > > >> > University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of > > >> > *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > >> vol.39, > > >> > 2017 > > >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: > > An > > >> > Intellectual Genealogy. > > >> > > > >> > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > >> > Webpage: > > >> > https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > > >> must be > > >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* > > >> > John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > > City University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Associate Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City > > University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Thu Nov 9 00:54:42 2017 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 08:54:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Sorry I do not get what this last contribution is try to say... -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il Sent: 09 November 2017 08:31 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences especially if the writer conceives himself a realist, a "socialist realist" without identifying himself with some "dry" aspects of it in socialist literature, distancing himself rom triumphalism etc On 9 November 2017 at 10:20, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > This ought to be of interest - In the 'Principles of Art' > Collingwood writes that ?[e]very utterance and every gesture that each > one of us makes is a work of art? (P. Art, 285). See > https://www.academia.edu/35044244/Landes_-_ > Collingwoods_Difficult_Ethics_2010_APA_Paper_ for discussion > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > Sent: 08 November 2017 16:15 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning > from life experiences > > Thank you Beth. > I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion, > imagination and creativity. > > Congratulations. > > Ulvi > > 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" yazd?: > > > To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > > Punishment > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > > formation > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center > > > was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is > > > the better place to look is very interesting, and a response would > > > have something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide > > > because in suicide and some art you have an end point: In > > > autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to have > > > the > closure, too. > > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf > > > shows herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work > > > is helpful > > here. > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > >> Thank you Robert! > > >> > > >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > > >> > > >> yazd?: > > >> > > >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back > > >> > in > > >> > 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to this > > >> > with his students this way. > > >> > ? > > >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing > > >> > about > > >> things > > >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > > >> > self-repair > > ? > > >> how > > >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > > "meta," > > >> to > > >> > think about their ways of thinking. > > >> > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > >> > , 1984. > > >> > > > >> > *Robert L.* > > >> > > > >> > Retrieved from : > > >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > >> > meta-all-the-time/ > > >> > > > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > >> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > >> > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > > >> > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > > >> > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening in > > >> > > their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > > >> > > multi-volume autobiography to you, > > >> > > > > >> > > Andy > > >> > > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to > > >> > > > be a > > >> > principal > > >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > >> > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > > literature... > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, > > >> > > > is to > > >> look > > >> > > into > > >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do > > >> > > > not use > > >> the > > >> > > > concept, > > >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in > > >> > > > those > > >> > theses... > > >> > > > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > >> > "perezhivanie" > > >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > > >> > > > Tsvetaeva...who > > all > > >> > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > >> > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua > > >> > > >> non > > >> concept > > >> > > for > > >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, > > >> > > >> and > > many > > >> > > others. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should > > >> > > >> not be > > >> > > studied > > >> > > >> without this concept. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Completely impossible. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > > >> > > >> sounds, > > >> > thoughts > > >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and > > >> > > >> affect, > > >> > cognition > > >> > > >> and emotion. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because > > >> > > >> for > > >> > instance, > > >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) > > >> > > >> says that > > >> the > > >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on > > >> > > >> colour in > > >> the > > >> > > poems > > >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > > >> > > >> sensitive > > to > > >> > > sounds > > >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > > language > > >> and > > >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation > > >> > > >> of rythm > > >> in > > >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > > >> > > >> databases? A > > >> poet > > >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > >> > > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be > > >> > > >>> read as well: > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> Andy > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> --------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >>> -- > > >> > > >>> - > > >> > > >>> Andy Blunden > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > >> > > >>>> Dear all, > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and > > >> > > >>>> playwright, > > Nazim > > >> > > >>> Hikmet, > > >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > >> experiences > > >> > at > > >> > > >>> each > > >> > > >>>> stage of his life, > > >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general > > >> > > >>>> on > > >> learning > > >> > > from > > >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great > > >> > > >>>> poets, > > >> > > painters > > >> > > >>> and > > >> > > >>>> play writers. > > >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section > > >> > > >>>> below > > from > > >> > his > > >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a > > >> > > >>>> theoretical > > >> > approach. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Thank you. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Ulvi > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. > > >> > > >>>> A > > table > > >> > with > > >> > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval > > >> > > >>>> table > > was > > >> > > >>> covered > > >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside > > >> > > >>>> house in > > >> > > ?sk?dar, a > > >> > > >>>> rococo > > >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey > > >> > > >>>> I made > > >> from > > >> > > the > > >> > > >>>> Black > > >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > >> thirty-five-day, > > >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in > > >> > > >>>> short, to > > >> make > > >> > a > > >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s > > >> > > >>>> descendant?more > > >> > > precisely, > > >> > > >>> a > > >> > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in > > >> > > >>>> the > > >> H?tel de > > >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a > > >> > > >>>> tattered, > > >> dirty, > > >> > > >>>> blood-stained > > >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, > > >> > > >>>> and my > > >> blood > > >> > > >>> rushes > > >> > > >>>> to my > > >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the > > >> > > >>>> house by > > the > > >> sea > > >> > > in > > >> > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The > > >> > > >>>> decision was > > >> > made: > > >> > > >>> death > > >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put > > >> > > >>>> the > > >> questions > > >> > on > > >> > > >>> this > > >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you > > >> > > >>>> sacrifice for > > >> this > > >> > > >>> cause? > > >> > > >>>> What > > >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? > Yes! > > >> How > > >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my > > >> > > >>>> life, > > if > > >> > > >>> necessary! > > >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You > > >> > > >>>> can?t > > >> wait > > >> > to > > >> > > >>>> travel, > > >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > > Anatolia > > >> > here > > >> > > on > > >> > > >>>> this > > >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and > > >> > > >>>> back to > > >> Ankara > > >> > > >>> from > > >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > >> minister?women, > > >> > > >>> wining > > >> > > >>>> and > > >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can > > >> > > >>>> spend my > > >> whole > > >> > > >>> life in > > >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > > >> > > >>>> drowned > > >> like > > >> > > >>> Mustafa > > >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you > > >> > > >>>> ask > > >> > yourself > > >> > > >>> these > > >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you > > >> > > >>>> afraid of > > >> being > > >> > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > > thinking? > > >> > No. > > >> > > I > > >> > > >>>> first knew > > >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready > > >> > > >>>> to be > > >> > > disabled, > > >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, > > >> > > >>>> heart > > >> > disease, > > >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I > > >> > > >>>> hadn?t > > >> thought > > >> > > >>> about > > >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes > > >> > > >>>> tight and > > >> > walked > > >> > > >>> around > > >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked > > >> > > >>>> around > > >> the > > >> > > room > > >> > > >>> in > > >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I > > >> > > >>>> didn?t > > >> open > > >> > my > > >> > > >>> eyes. > > >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I > > >> > > >>>> can > > accept > > >> > > >>> blindness. > > >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this > > >> > > >>>> is the > > >> truth. > > >> > > Not > > >> > > >>>> books or > > >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought > > >> > > >>>> me > > where > > >> I > > >> > am. > > >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen > > >> > > >>>> only on > > >> the > > >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > > That?s > > >> > how > > >> > > >>> it is > > >> > > >>>> . > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > >> > Associate Professor > > >> > Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, > > >> > Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box > > >> > 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of *Review of Education, > > >> > Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > >> vol.39, > > >> > 2017 > > >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: > > An > > >> > Intellectual Genealogy. > > >> > > > >> > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > >> > Webpage: > > >> > https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > > >> must be > > >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* > > >> > John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > > City University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Associate Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Nov 9 00:59:58 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 08:59:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> , Message-ID: <1510217998170.86001@iped.uio.no> Not me either; clarification very welcome! Also, I haven't read Collingwood, but if anyone has a thought, in which way would a gesture be a work of art, or a work of art a gesture? Can a gesture be a 'work', and can work be a gesture? Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of WEBSTER, DAVID S. Sent: 09 November 2017 09:54 To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences Sorry I do not get what this last contribution is try to say... -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il Sent: 09 November 2017 08:31 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences especially if the writer conceives himself a realist, a "socialist realist" without identifying himself with some "dry" aspects of it in socialist literature, distancing himself rom triumphalism etc On 9 November 2017 at 10:20, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > This ought to be of interest - In the 'Principles of Art' > Collingwood writes that ?[e]very utterance and every gesture that each > one of us makes is a work of art? (P. Art, 285). See > https://www.academia.edu/35044244/Landes_-_ > Collingwoods_Difficult_Ethics_2010_APA_Paper_ for discussion > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > Sent: 08 November 2017 16:15 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning > from life experiences > > Thank you Beth. > I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion, > imagination and creativity. > > Congratulations. > > Ulvi > > 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" yazd?: > > > To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > > Punishment > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > > formation > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center > > > was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is > > > the better place to look is very interesting, and a response would > > > have something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide > > > because in suicide and some art you have an end point: In > > > autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to have > > > the > closure, too. > > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf > > > shows herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work > > > is helpful > > here. > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > >> Thank you Robert! > > >> > > >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > > >> > > >> yazd?: > > >> > > >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back > > >> > in > > >> > 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to this > > >> > with his students this way. > > >> > ? > > >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing > > >> > about > > >> things > > >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > > >> > self-repair > > ? > > >> how > > >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > > "meta," > > >> to > > >> > think about their ways of thinking. > > >> > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > >> > , 1984. > > >> > > > >> > *Robert L.* > > >> > > > >> > Retrieved from : > > >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > >> > meta-all-the-time/ > > >> > > > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > >> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > >> > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > > >> > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > > >> > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening in > > >> > > their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > > >> > > multi-volume autobiography to you, > > >> > > > > >> > > Andy > > >> > > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to > > >> > > > be a > > >> > principal > > >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > >> > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > > literature... > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, > > >> > > > is to > > >> look > > >> > > into > > >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do > > >> > > > not use > > >> the > > >> > > > concept, > > >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in > > >> > > > those > > >> > theses... > > >> > > > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > >> > "perezhivanie" > > >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > > >> > > > Tsvetaeva...who > > all > > >> > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > >> > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua > > >> > > >> non > > >> concept > > >> > > for > > >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, > > >> > > >> and > > many > > >> > > others. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should > > >> > > >> not be > > >> > > studied > > >> > > >> without this concept. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Completely impossible. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > > >> > > >> sounds, > > >> > thoughts > > >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and > > >> > > >> affect, > > >> > cognition > > >> > > >> and emotion. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because > > >> > > >> for > > >> > instance, > > >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) > > >> > > >> says that > > >> the > > >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on > > >> > > >> colour in > > >> the > > >> > > poems > > >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > > >> > > >> sensitive > > to > > >> > > sounds > > >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > > language > > >> and > > >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation > > >> > > >> of rythm > > >> in > > >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > > >> > > >> databases? A > > >> poet > > >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > >> > > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be > > >> > > >>> read as well: > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> Andy > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> --------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >>> -- > > >> > > >>> - > > >> > > >>> Andy Blunden > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > >> > > >>>> Dear all, > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and > > >> > > >>>> playwright, > > Nazim > > >> > > >>> Hikmet, > > >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > >> experiences > > >> > at > > >> > > >>> each > > >> > > >>>> stage of his life, > > >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general > > >> > > >>>> on > > >> learning > > >> > > from > > >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great > > >> > > >>>> poets, > > >> > > painters > > >> > > >>> and > > >> > > >>>> play writers. > > >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section > > >> > > >>>> below > > from > > >> > his > > >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a > > >> > > >>>> theoretical > > >> > approach. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Thank you. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Ulvi > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. > > >> > > >>>> A > > table > > >> > with > > >> > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval > > >> > > >>>> table > > was > > >> > > >>> covered > > >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside > > >> > > >>>> house in > > >> > > ?sk?dar, a > > >> > > >>>> rococo > > >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey > > >> > > >>>> I made > > >> from > > >> > > the > > >> > > >>>> Black > > >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > >> thirty-five-day, > > >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in > > >> > > >>>> short, to > > >> make > > >> > a > > >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s > > >> > > >>>> descendant?more > > >> > > precisely, > > >> > > >>> a > > >> > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in > > >> > > >>>> the > > >> H?tel de > > >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a > > >> > > >>>> tattered, > > >> dirty, > > >> > > >>>> blood-stained > > >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, > > >> > > >>>> and my > > >> blood > > >> > > >>> rushes > > >> > > >>>> to my > > >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the > > >> > > >>>> house by > > the > > >> sea > > >> > > in > > >> > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The > > >> > > >>>> decision was > > >> > made: > > >> > > >>> death > > >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put > > >> > > >>>> the > > >> questions > > >> > on > > >> > > >>> this > > >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you > > >> > > >>>> sacrifice for > > >> this > > >> > > >>> cause? > > >> > > >>>> What > > >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? > Yes! > > >> How > > >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my > > >> > > >>>> life, > > if > > >> > > >>> necessary! > > >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You > > >> > > >>>> can?t > > >> wait > > >> > to > > >> > > >>>> travel, > > >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > > Anatolia > > >> > here > > >> > > on > > >> > > >>>> this > > >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and > > >> > > >>>> back to > > >> Ankara > > >> > > >>> from > > >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > >> minister?women, > > >> > > >>> wining > > >> > > >>>> and > > >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can > > >> > > >>>> spend my > > >> whole > > >> > > >>> life in > > >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > > >> > > >>>> drowned > > >> like > > >> > > >>> Mustafa > > >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you > > >> > > >>>> ask > > >> > yourself > > >> > > >>> these > > >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you > > >> > > >>>> afraid of > > >> being > > >> > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > > thinking? > > >> > No. > > >> > > I > > >> > > >>>> first knew > > >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready > > >> > > >>>> to be > > >> > > disabled, > > >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, > > >> > > >>>> heart > > >> > disease, > > >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I > > >> > > >>>> hadn?t > > >> thought > > >> > > >>> about > > >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes > > >> > > >>>> tight and > > >> > walked > > >> > > >>> around > > >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked > > >> > > >>>> around > > >> the > > >> > > room > > >> > > >>> in > > >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I > > >> > > >>>> didn?t > > >> open > > >> > my > > >> > > >>> eyes. > > >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I > > >> > > >>>> can > > accept > > >> > > >>> blindness. > > >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this > > >> > > >>>> is the > > >> truth. > > >> > > Not > > >> > > >>>> books or > > >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought > > >> > > >>>> me > > where > > >> I > > >> > am. > > >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen > > >> > > >>>> only on > > >> the > > >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > > That?s > > >> > how > > >> > > >>> it is > > >> > > >>>> . > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > >> > Associate Professor > > >> > Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, > > >> > Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box > > >> > 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of *Review of Education, > > >> > Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > >> vol.39, > > >> > 2017 > > >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: > > An > > >> > Intellectual Genealogy. > > >> > > > >> > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > >> > Webpage: > > >> > https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > > >> must be > > >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* > > >> > John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > > City University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Associate Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Thu Nov 9 01:06:34 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 11:06:34 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: I intended to mean that if a gesture, belonging to social reality, is a work of art, a realist artist, an artist who adopted realism as a literary approach, will conceive this gesture in real life as a work of art compared with any other artist who is not a realist one, who does not adopt realism in literature as a main approach for his artistic creation. On 9 November 2017 at 10:20, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > This ought to be of interest - In the 'Principles of Art' Collingwood > writes that ?[e]very utterance > and every gesture that each one of us makes is a work of art? (P. Art, > 285). See https://www.academia.edu/35044244/Landes_-_ > Collingwoods_Difficult_Ethics_2010_APA_Paper_ for discussion > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > Sent: 08 November 2017 16:15 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from > life experiences > > Thank you Beth. > I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion, > imagination and creativity. > > Congratulations. > > Ulvi > > 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" yazd?: > > > To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > > Punishment > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > > formation > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center > > > was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is > > > the better place to look is very interesting, and a response would > > > have something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide > > > because in suicide and some art you have an end point: In > > > autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to have the > closure, too. > > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows > > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is > > > helpful > > here. > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > >> Thank you Robert! > > >> > > >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > > >> > > >> yazd?: > > >> > > >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in > > >> > 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to this > > >> > with his students this way. > > >> > ? > > >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing > > >> > about > > >> things > > >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > > >> > self-repair > > ? > > >> how > > >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > > "meta," > > >> to > > >> > think about their ways of thinking. > > >> > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > >> > , 1984. > > >> > > > >> > *Robert L.* > > >> > > > >> > Retrieved from : > > >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > >> > meta-all-the-time/ > > >> > > > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > >> > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks back > > >> > > over their life, and the experiences which have shaped them, > > >> > > reassessing how they responded to events intervening in their > > >> > > life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's multi-volume > > >> > > autobiography to you, > > >> > > > > >> > > Andy > > >> > > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be > > >> > > > a > > >> > principal > > >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > >> > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > > literature... > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is > > >> > > > to > > >> look > > >> > > into > > >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not > > >> > > > use > > >> the > > >> > > > concept, > > >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in > > >> > > > those > > >> > theses... > > >> > > > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > >> > "perezhivanie" > > >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > > >> > > > Tsvetaeva...who > > all > > >> > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua > > >> > > >> non > > >> concept > > >> > > for > > >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, > > >> > > >> and > > many > > >> > > others. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should > > >> > > >> not be > > >> > > studied > > >> > > >> without this concept. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Completely impossible. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > > >> > > >> sounds, > > >> > thoughts > > >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and > > >> > > >> affect, > > >> > cognition > > >> > > >> and emotion. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because > > >> > > >> for > > >> > instance, > > >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says > > >> > > >> that > > >> the > > >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on > > >> > > >> colour in > > >> the > > >> > > poems > > >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > > >> > > >> sensitive > > to > > >> > > sounds > > >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > > language > > >> and > > >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of > > >> > > >> rythm > > >> in > > >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > > >> > > >> databases? A > > >> poet > > >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > >> > > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > > >> > > >>> as well: > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> Andy > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >>> - > > >> > > >>> Andy Blunden > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > >> > > >>>> Dear all, > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and > > >> > > >>>> playwright, > > Nazim > > >> > > >>> Hikmet, > > >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > >> experiences > > >> > at > > >> > > >>> each > > >> > > >>>> stage of his life, > > >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on > > >> learning > > >> > > from > > >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great > > >> > > >>>> poets, > > >> > > painters > > >> > > >>> and > > >> > > >>>> play writers. > > >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section > > >> > > >>>> below > > from > > >> > his > > >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a > > >> > > >>>> theoretical > > >> > approach. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Thank you. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Ulvi > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A > > table > > >> > with > > >> > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval > > >> > > >>>> table > > was > > >> > > >>> covered > > >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house > > >> > > >>>> in > > >> > > ?sk?dar, a > > >> > > >>>> rococo > > >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I > > >> > > >>>> made > > >> from > > >> > > the > > >> > > >>>> Black > > >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > >> thirty-five-day, > > >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in > > >> > > >>>> short, to > > >> make > > >> > a > > >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s > > >> > > >>>> descendant?more > > >> > > precisely, > > >> > > >>> a > > >> > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in > > >> > > >>>> the > > >> H?tel de > > >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a > > >> > > >>>> tattered, > > >> dirty, > > >> > > >>>> blood-stained > > >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and > > >> > > >>>> my > > >> blood > > >> > > >>> rushes > > >> > > >>>> to my > > >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house > > >> > > >>>> by > > the > > >> sea > > >> > > in > > >> > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The > > >> > > >>>> decision was > > >> > made: > > >> > > >>> death > > >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > > >> questions > > >> > on > > >> > > >>> this > > >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice > > >> > > >>>> for > > >> this > > >> > > >>> cause? > > >> > > >>>> What > > >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? > Yes! > > >> How > > >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my > > >> > > >>>> life, > > if > > >> > > >>> necessary! > > >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You > > >> > > >>>> can?t > > >> wait > > >> > to > > >> > > >>>> travel, > > >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > > Anatolia > > >> > here > > >> > > on > > >> > > >>>> this > > >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back > > >> > > >>>> to > > >> Ankara > > >> > > >>> from > > >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > >> minister?women, > > >> > > >>> wining > > >> > > >>>> and > > >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can > > >> > > >>>> spend my > > >> whole > > >> > > >>> life in > > >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > > >> > > >>>> drowned > > >> like > > >> > > >>> Mustafa > > >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you > > >> > > >>>> ask > > >> > yourself > > >> > > >>> these > > >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid > > >> > > >>>> of > > >> being > > >> > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > > thinking? > > >> > No. > > >> > > I > > >> > > >>>> first knew > > >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to > > >> > > >>>> be > > >> > > disabled, > > >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, > > >> > > >>>> heart > > >> > disease, > > >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I > > >> > > >>>> hadn?t > > >> thought > > >> > > >>> about > > >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight > > >> > > >>>> and > > >> > walked > > >> > > >>> around > > >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked > > >> > > >>>> around > > >> the > > >> > > room > > >> > > >>> in > > >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I > > >> > > >>>> didn?t > > >> open > > >> > my > > >> > > >>> eyes. > > >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can > > accept > > >> > > >>> blindness. > > >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is > > >> > > >>>> the > > >> truth. > > >> > > Not > > >> > > >>>> books or > > >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me > > where > > >> I > > >> > am. > > >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen > > >> > > >>>> only on > > >> the > > >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > > That?s > > >> > how > > >> > > >>> it is > > >> > > >>>> . > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > >> > Associate Professor > > >> > Social Foundations of Education > > >> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > > >> > University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of > > >> > *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > >> vol.39, > > >> > 2017 > > >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: > > An > > >> > Intellectual Genealogy. > > >> > > > >> > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > >> > Webpage: > > >> > https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > > >> must be > > >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* > > >> > John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > > City University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Associate Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City > > University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Nov 9 01:18:14 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 18:18:14 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Ulvi-- Can you give me an example of a "realist" piano sonata? Do you mean something like "4:22" by John Cage? David Kellogg On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > I intended to mean that if a gesture, belonging to social reality, is a > work of art, a realist artist, an artist who adopted realism as a literary > approach, will conceive this gesture in real life as a work of art compared > with any other artist who is not a realist one, who does not adopt realism > in literature as a main approach for his artistic creation. > > > > On 9 November 2017 at 10:20, WEBSTER, DAVID S. > wrote: > > > This ought to be of interest - In the 'Principles of Art' Collingwood > > writes that ?[e]very utterance > > and every gesture that each one of us makes is a work of art? (P. Art, > > 285). See https://www.academia.edu/35044244/Landes_-_ > > Collingwoods_Difficult_Ethics_2010_APA_Paper_ for discussion > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > > Sent: 08 November 2017 16:15 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from > > life experiences > > > > Thank you Beth. > > I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion, > > imagination and creativity. > > > > Congratulations. > > > > Ulvi > > > > 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" yazd?: > > > > > To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt > > wrote: > > > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > > > Punishment > > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > > > formation > > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center > > > > was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is > > > > the better place to look is very interesting, and a response would > > > > have something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide > > > > because in suicide and some art you have an end point: In > > > > autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to have the > > closure, too. > > > > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows > > > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is > > > > helpful > > > here. > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Thank you Robert! > > > >> > > > >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > > > >> > > > >> yazd?: > > > >> > > > >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > > >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in > > > >> > 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to this > > > >> > with his students this way. > > > >> > ? > > > >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing > > > >> > about > > > >> things > > > >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > > > >> > self-repair > > > ? > > > >> how > > > >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > > > "meta," > > > >> to > > > >> > think about their ways of thinking. > > > >> > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > > >> > , 1984. > > > >> > > > > >> > *Robert L.* > > > >> > > > > >> > Retrieved from : > > > >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > > >> > meta-all-the-time/ > > > >> > > > > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > > >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > > >> > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks back > > > >> > > over their life, and the experiences which have shaped them, > > > >> > > reassessing how they responded to events intervening in their > > > >> > > life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's multi-volume > > > >> > > autobiography to you, > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > >> > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be > > > >> > > > a > > > >> > principal > > > >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > > >> > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > > > literature... > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is > > > >> > > > to > > > >> look > > > >> > > into > > > >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not > > > >> > > > use > > > >> the > > > >> > > > concept, > > > >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in > > > >> > > > those > > > >> > theses... > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > > >> > "perezhivanie" > > > >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > > > >> > > > Tsvetaeva...who > > > all > > > >> > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua > > > >> > > >> non > > > >> concept > > > >> > > for > > > >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, > > > >> > > >> and > > > many > > > >> > > others. > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should > > > >> > > >> not be > > > >> > > studied > > > >> > > >> without this concept. > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> Completely impossible. > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > > > >> > > >> sounds, > > > >> > thoughts > > > >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and > > > >> > > >> affect, > > > >> > cognition > > > >> > > >> and emotion. > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because > > > >> > > >> for > > > >> > instance, > > > >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says > > > >> > > >> that > > > >> the > > > >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on > > > >> > > >> colour in > > > >> the > > > >> > > poems > > > >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > > > >> > > >> sensitive > > > to > > > >> > > sounds > > > >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > > > language > > > >> and > > > >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of > > > >> > > >> rythm > > > >> in > > > >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > > > >> > > >> databases? A > > > >> poet > > > >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > > >> > > >> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > > > >> > > >>> as well: > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> Andy > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > > >>> - > > > >> > > >>> Andy Blunden > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > >> > > >>>> Dear all, > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and > > > >> > > >>>> playwright, > > > Nazim > > > >> > > >>> Hikmet, > > > >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > > >> experiences > > > >> > at > > > >> > > >>> each > > > >> > > >>>> stage of his life, > > > >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on > > > >> learning > > > >> > > from > > > >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great > > > >> > > >>>> poets, > > > >> > > painters > > > >> > > >>> and > > > >> > > >>>> play writers. > > > >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section > > > >> > > >>>> below > > > from > > > >> > his > > > >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a > > > >> > > >>>> theoretical > > > >> > approach. > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> Thank you. > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> Ulvi > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A > > > table > > > >> > with > > > >> > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval > > > >> > > >>>> table > > > was > > > >> > > >>> covered > > > >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house > > > >> > > >>>> in > > > >> > > ?sk?dar, a > > > >> > > >>>> rococo > > > >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I > > > >> > > >>>> made > > > >> from > > > >> > > the > > > >> > > >>>> Black > > > >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > > >> thirty-five-day, > > > >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > > >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in > > > >> > > >>>> short, to > > > >> make > > > >> > a > > > >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s > > > >> > > >>>> descendant?more > > > >> > > precisely, > > > >> > > >>> a > > > >> > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in > > > >> > > >>>> the > > > >> H?tel de > > > >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a > > > >> > > >>>> tattered, > > > >> dirty, > > > >> > > >>>> blood-stained > > > >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and > > > >> > > >>>> my > > > >> blood > > > >> > > >>> rushes > > > >> > > >>>> to my > > > >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house > > > >> > > >>>> by > > > the > > > >> sea > > > >> > > in > > > >> > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The > > > >> > > >>>> decision was > > > >> > made: > > > >> > > >>> death > > > >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > > > >> questions > > > >> > on > > > >> > > >>> this > > > >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice > > > >> > > >>>> for > > > >> this > > > >> > > >>> cause? > > > >> > > >>>> What > > > >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? > > Yes! > > > >> How > > > >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my > > > >> > > >>>> life, > > > if > > > >> > > >>> necessary! > > > >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You > > > >> > > >>>> can?t > > > >> wait > > > >> > to > > > >> > > >>>> travel, > > > >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > > > Anatolia > > > >> > here > > > >> > > on > > > >> > > >>>> this > > > >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back > > > >> > > >>>> to > > > >> Ankara > > > >> > > >>> from > > > >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > > >> minister?women, > > > >> > > >>> wining > > > >> > > >>>> and > > > >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can > > > >> > > >>>> spend my > > > >> whole > > > >> > > >>> life in > > > >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > > > >> > > >>>> drowned > > > >> like > > > >> > > >>> Mustafa > > > >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you > > > >> > > >>>> ask > > > >> > yourself > > > >> > > >>> these > > > >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid > > > >> > > >>>> of > > > >> being > > > >> > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > > > thinking? > > > >> > No. > > > >> > > I > > > >> > > >>>> first knew > > > >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to > > > >> > > >>>> be > > > >> > > disabled, > > > >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, > > > >> > > >>>> heart > > > >> > disease, > > > >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I > > > >> > > >>>> hadn?t > > > >> thought > > > >> > > >>> about > > > >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight > > > >> > > >>>> and > > > >> > walked > > > >> > > >>> around > > > >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked > > > >> > > >>>> around > > > >> the > > > >> > > room > > > >> > > >>> in > > > >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I > > > >> > > >>>> didn?t > > > >> open > > > >> > my > > > >> > > >>> eyes. > > > >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can > > > accept > > > >> > > >>> blindness. > > > >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is > > > >> > > >>>> the > > > >> truth. > > > >> > > Not > > > >> > > >>>> books or > > > >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me > > > where > > > >> I > > > >> > am. > > > >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen > > > >> > > >>>> only on > > > >> the > > > >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > > > That?s > > > >> > how > > > >> > > >>> it is > > > >> > > >>>> . > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > -- > > > >> > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > >> > Associate Professor > > > >> > Social Foundations of Education > > > >> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > > > >> > University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of > > > >> > *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > > >> vol.39, > > > >> > 2017 > > > >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social > Imagination: > > > An > > > >> > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > >> > > > > >> > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > > >> > Webpage: > > > >> > https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > > > >> must be > > > >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* > > > >> > John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > Associate Professor > > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > > > City University of New York > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City > > > University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > From d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk Thu Nov 9 01:54:49 2017 From: d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk (WEBSTER, DAVID S.) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 09:54:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Collingwood rejected the realism of his student Oxford (1912-15/6) teachers but also rejected his identification by others as an idealist. Collingwood is a tricky read as he endeavours to keep his writing comprehensible to the educated lay public of his day while maintaining philosophical rigour. We are not talking about what philosophical stance any particular artist thinks they are adopting. Collingwood was a dialectical thinker and understood that categories move. What Collingwood means by 'gesture' is given by the broad context of his writings and not just as it appears to be given in any particular text. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: 09 November 2017 09:18 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences Ulvi-- Can you give me an example of a "realist" piano sonata? Do you mean something like "4:22" by John Cage? David Kellogg On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > I intended to mean that if a gesture, belonging to social reality, is > a work of art, a realist artist, an artist who adopted realism as a > literary approach, will conceive this gesture in real life as a work > of art compared with any other artist who is not a realist one, who > does not adopt realism in literature as a main approach for his artistic creation. > > > > On 9 November 2017 at 10:20, WEBSTER, DAVID S. > > wrote: > > > This ought to be of interest - In the 'Principles of Art' > > Collingwood writes that ?[e]very utterance and every gesture that > > each one of us makes is a work of art? (P. Art, 285). See > > https://www.academia.edu/35044244/Landes_-_ > > Collingwoods_Difficult_Ethics_2010_APA_Paper_ for discussion > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > > Sent: 08 November 2017 16:15 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning > > from life experiences > > > > Thank you Beth. > > I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion, > > imagination and creativity. > > > > Congratulations. > > > > Ulvi > > > > 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" yazd?: > > > > > To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt > > wrote: > > > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > > > Punishment > > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's > > > > life, > > > formation > > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the > > > > center was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry > > > > is the better place to look is very interesting, and a response > > > > would have something to do with bodily sensations but also with > > > > suicide because in suicide and some art you have an end point: > > > > In autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to > > > > have the > > closure, too. > > > > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf > > > > shows herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her > > > > work is helpful > > > here. > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Thank you Robert! > > > >> > > > >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > > > >> > > > >> yazd?: > > > >> > > > >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > > >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back > > > >> > in > > > >> > 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to > > > >> > this with his students this way. > > > >> > ? > > > >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing > > > >> > about > > > >> things > > > >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > > > >> > self-repair > > > ? > > > >> how > > > >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to > > > >> > go > > > "meta," > > > >> to > > > >> > think about their ways of thinking. > > > >> > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > > >> > , 1984. > > > >> > > > > >> > *Robert L.* > > > >> > > > > >> > Retrieved from : > > > >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > > >> > meta-all-the-time/ > > > >> > > > > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > > >> > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > > >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the > > > >> > > autobiography itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the > > > >> > > writer looks back over their life, and the experiences > > > >> > > which have shaped them, reassessing how they responded to > > > >> > > events intervening in their life and surviving. I think I > > > >> > > mentioned Gorki's multi-volume autobiography to you, > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > >> > > > > > >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > > - > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to > > > >> > > > be a > > > >> > principal > > > >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva by this same Turkish professor > > > >> > > > on Russian language and > > > literature... > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I > > > >> > > > believe, is to > > > >> look > > > >> > > into > > > >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do > > > >> > > > not use > > > >> the > > > >> > > > concept, > > > >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in > > > >> > > > those > > > >> > theses... > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > > >> > "perezhivanie" > > > >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > > > >> > > > Tsvetaeva...who > > > all > > > >> > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > > >> > > > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine > > > >> > > >> qua non > > > >> concept > > > >> > > for > > > >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: > > > >> > > >> Pushkin, and > > > many > > > >> > > others. > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and > > > >> > > >> should not be > > > >> > > studied > > > >> > > >> without this concept. > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> Completely impossible. > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > > > >> > > >> sounds, > > > >> > thoughts > > > >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and > > > >> > > >> affect, > > > >> > cognition > > > >> > > >> and emotion. > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" > > > >> > > >> because for > > > >> > instance, > > > >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) > > > >> > > >> says that > > > >> the > > > >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on > > > >> > > >> colour in > > > >> the > > > >> > > poems > > > >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > > > >> > > >> sensitive > > > to > > > >> > > sounds > > > >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on > > > >> > > >> Russian > > > language > > > >> and > > > >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation > > > >> > > >> of rythm > > > >> in > > > >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > > > >> > > >> databases? A > > > >> poet > > > >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > > >> > > >> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be > > > >> > > >>> read as well: > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> Andy > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > > >>> ---- > > > >> > > >>> - > > > >> > > >>> Andy Blunden > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > >> > > >>>> Dear all, > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and > > > >> > > >>>> playwright, > > > Nazim > > > >> > > >>> Hikmet, > > > >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > > >> experiences > > > >> > at > > > >> > > >>> each > > > >> > > >>>> stage of his life, > > > >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in > > > >> > > >>>> general on > > > >> learning > > > >> > > from > > > >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such > > > >> > > >>>> great poets, > > > >> > > painters > > > >> > > >>> and > > > >> > > >>>> play writers. > > > >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section > > > >> > > >>>> below > > > from > > > >> > his > > > >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a > > > >> > > >>>> theoretical > > > >> > approach. > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> Thank you. > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> Ulvi > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in > > > >> > > >>>> Batum. A > > > table > > > >> > with > > > >> > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded > > > >> > > >>>> oval table > > > was > > > >> > > >>> covered > > > >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside > > > >> > > >>>> house in > > > >> > > ?sk?dar, a > > > >> > > >>>> rococo > > > >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The > > > >> > > >>>> journey I made > > > >> from > > > >> > > the > > > >> > > >>>> Black > > > >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > > >> thirty-five-day, > > > >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > > >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in > > > >> > > >>>> short, to > > > >> make > > > >> > a > > > >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s > > > >> > > >>>> descendant?more > > > >> > > precisely, > > > >> > > >>> a > > > >> > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table > > > >> > > >>>> in the > > > >> H?tel de > > > >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a > > > >> > > >>>> tattered, > > > >> dirty, > > > >> > > >>>> blood-stained > > > >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, > > > >> > > >>>> and my > > > >> blood > > > >> > > >>> rushes > > > >> > > >>>> to my > > > >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the > > > >> > > >>>> house by > > > the > > > >> sea > > > >> > > in > > > >> > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The > > > >> > > >>>> decision was > > > >> > made: > > > >> > > >>> death > > > >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put > > > >> > > >>>> the > > > >> questions > > > >> > on > > > >> > > >>> this > > > >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you > > > >> > > >>>> sacrifice for > > > >> this > > > >> > > >>> cause? > > > >> > > >>>> What > > > >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? > > Yes! > > > >> How > > > >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All > > > >> > > >>>> my life, > > > if > > > >> > > >>> necessary! > > > >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. > > > >> > > >>>> You can?t > > > >> wait > > > >> > to > > > >> > > >>>> travel, > > > >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just > > > >> > > >>>> leave > > > Anatolia > > > >> > here > > > >> > > on > > > >> > > >>>> this > > > >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and > > > >> > > >>>> back to > > > >> Ankara > > > >> > > >>> from > > > >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > > >> minister?women, > > > >> > > >>> wining > > > >> > > >>>> and > > > >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can > > > >> > > >>>> spend my > > > >> whole > > > >> > > >>> life in > > > >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, > > > >> > > >>>> or drowned > > > >> like > > > >> > > >>> Mustafa > > > >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t > > > >> > > >>>> you ask > > > >> > yourself > > > >> > > >>> these > > > >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you > > > >> > > >>>> afraid of > > > >> being > > > >> > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, > > > >> > > >>>> without > > > thinking? > > > >> > No. > > > >> > > I > > > >> > > >>>> first knew > > > >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you > > > >> > > >>>> ready to be > > > >> > > disabled, > > > >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And > > > >> > > >>>> TB, heart > > > >> > disease, > > > >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I > > > >> > > >>>> hadn?t > > > >> thought > > > >> > > >>> about > > > >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes > > > >> > > >>>> tight and > > > >> > walked > > > >> > > >>> around > > > >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I > > > >> > > >>>> walked around > > > >> the > > > >> > > room > > > >> > > >>> in > > > >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but > > > >> > > >>>> I didn?t > > > >> open > > > >> > my > > > >> > > >>> eyes. > > > >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I > > > >> > > >>>> can > > > accept > > > >> > > >>> blindness. > > > >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this > > > >> > > >>>> is the > > > >> truth. > > > >> > > Not > > > >> > > >>>> books or > > > >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition > > > >> > > >>>> brought me > > > where > > > >> I > > > >> > am. > > > >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had > > > >> > > >>>> seen only on > > > >> the > > > >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > > > That?s > > > >> > how > > > >> > > >>> it is > > > >> > > >>>> . > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > -- > > > >> > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > >> > Associate Professor > > > >> > Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, > > > >> > Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. > > > >> > Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of *Review of > > > >> > Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > > >> vol.39, > > > >> > 2017 > > > >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social > Imagination: > > > An > > > >> > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > >> > > > > >> > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > > >> > Webpage: > > > >> > https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > > > >> must be > > > >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* > > > >> > John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > Associate Professor > > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn > > > > College, City University of New York > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > > City University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Nov 9 02:59:17 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 21:59:17 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: <323711fc-fff0-f197-a506-4d683f6111f6@mira.net> R. G. Collingwood. I know him as probably the best English Hegelians of his time. I have his The Idea of History, but still haven't got into it. :) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 9/11/2017 8:54 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > Collingwood rejected the realism of his student Oxford (1912-15/6) teachers but also rejected his identification by others as an idealist. Collingwood is a tricky read as he endeavours to keep his writing comprehensible to the educated lay public of his day while maintaining philosophical rigour. We are not talking about what philosophical stance any particular artist thinks they are adopting. Collingwood was a dialectical thinker and understood that categories move. What Collingwood means by 'gesture' is given by the broad context of his writings and not just as it appears to be given in any particular text. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: 09 November 2017 09:18 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences > > Ulvi-- > > Can you give me an example of a "realist" piano sonata? Do you mean something like "4:22" by John Cage? > > David Kellogg > > On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> I intended to mean that if a gesture, belonging to social reality, is >> a work of art, a realist artist, an artist who adopted realism as a >> literary approach, will conceive this gesture in real life as a work >> of art compared with any other artist who is not a realist one, who >> does not adopt realism in literature as a main approach for his artistic creation. >> >> >> >> On 9 November 2017 at 10:20, WEBSTER, DAVID S. >> >> wrote: >> >>> This ought to be of interest - In the 'Principles of Art' >>> Collingwood writes that ?[e]very utterance and every gesture that >>> each one of us makes is a work of art? (P. Art, 285). See >>> https://www.academia.edu/35044244/Landes_-_ >>> Collingwoods_Difficult_Ethics_2010_APA_Paper_ for discussion >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ >>> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il >>> Sent: 08 November 2017 16:15 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning >>> from life experiences >>> >>> Thank you Beth. >>> I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion, >>> imagination and creativity. >>> >>> Congratulations. >>> >>> Ulvi >>> >>> 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" yazd?: >>> >>>> To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt >>> wrote: >>>>> Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and >>>> Punishment >>>>> -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's >>>>> life, >>>> formation >>>>> and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the >>>>> center was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. >>>>> >>>>> I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry >>>>> is the better place to look is very interesting, and a response >>>>> would have something to do with bodily sensations but also with >>>>> suicide because in suicide and some art you have an end point: >>>>> In autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to >>>>> have the >>> closure, too. >>>>> I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf >>>>> shows herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her >>>>> work is helpful >>>> here. >>>>> Beth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il >> wrote: >>>>>> Thank you Robert! >>>>>> >>>>>> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" >>>>>> >>>>>> yazd?: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! >>>>>>> Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to >>>>>>> this with his students this way. >>>>>>> ? >>>>>>> There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing >>>>>>> about >>>>>> things >>>>>>> to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and >>>>>>> self-repair >>>> ? >>>>>> how >>>>>>> to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to >>>>>>> go >>>> "meta," >>>>>> to >>>>>>> think about their ways of thinking. >>>>>>> ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* >>>>>>> , 1984. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Robert L.* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Retrieved from : >>>>>>> https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- >>>>>>> meta-all-the-time/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the >>>>>>>> study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the >>>>>>>> autobiography itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the >>>>>>>> writer looks back over their life, and the experiences >>>>>>>> which have shaped them, reassessing how they responded to >>>>>>>> events intervening in their life and surviving. I think I >>>>>>>> mentioned Gorki's multi-volume autobiography to you, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >>>>>>>> On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >>>>>>>>> Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to >>>>>>>>> be a >>>>>>> principal >>>>>>>>> worry for Marina Tsvetaeva by this same Turkish professor >>>>>>>>> on Russian language and >>>> literature... >>>>>>>>> Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I >>>>>>>>> believe, is to >>>>>> look >>>>>>>> into >>>>>>>>> theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do >>>>>>>>> not use >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> concept, >>>>>>>>> we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>> theses... >>>>>>>>> probably because poets are the best human beings to study >>>>>>> "perezhivanie" >>>>>>>>> for reasons easy to conceive. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, >>>>>>>>> Tsvetaeva...who >>>> all >>>>>>>>> suicided, unfortunately. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il >>>>>>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine >>>>>>>>>> qua non >>>>>> concept >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> studying the lives and works of poets especially: >>>>>>>>>> Pushkin, and >>>> many >>>>>>>> others. >>>>>>>>>> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and >>>>>>>>>> should not be >>>>>>>> studied >>>>>>>>>> without this concept. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Completely impossible. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of >>>>>>>>>> sounds, >>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>>>>> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and >>>>>>>>>> affect, >>>>>>> cognition >>>>>>>>>> and emotion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" >>>>>>>>>> because for >>>>>>> instance, >>>>>>>>>> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) >>>>>>>>>> says that >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on >>>>>>>>>> colour in >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> poems >>>>>>>>>> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more >>>>>>>>>> sensitive >>>> to >>>>>>>> sounds >>>>>>>>>> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on >>>>>>>>>> Russian >>>> language >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation >>>>>>>>>> of rythm >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian >>>>>>>>>> databases? A >>>>>> poet >>>>>>>>>> studied with "perezhivanie". >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be >>>>>>>>>>> read as well: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% >>>> 20Vasilyuk.pdf >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% >>>> 20Vasilyuk.pdf >>>>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and >>>>>>>>>>>> playwright, >>>> Nazim >>>>>>>>>>> Hikmet, >>>>>>>>>>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life >>>>>> experiences >>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> each >>>>>>>>>>>> stage of his life, >>>>>>>>>>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in >>>>>>>>>>>> general on >>>>>> learning >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such >>>>>>>>>>>> great poets, >>>>>>>> painters >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> play writers. >>>>>>>>>>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section >>>>>>>>>>>> below >>>> from >>>>>>> his >>>>>>>>>>>> novel, Life's good, brother. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a >>>>>>>>>>>> theoretical >>>>>>> approach. >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ulvi >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in >>>>>>>>>>>> Batum. A >>>> table >>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded >>>>>>>>>>>> oval table >>>> was >>>>>>>>>>> covered >>>>>>>>>>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside >>>>>>>>>>>> house in >>>>>>>> ?sk?dar, a >>>>>>>>>>>> rococo >>>>>>>>>>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The >>>>>>>>>>>> journey I made >>>>>> from >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> Black >>>>>>>>>>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the >>>>>> thirty-five-day, >>>>>>>>>>>> thirty-fiveyear >>>>>>>>>>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in >>>>>>>>>>>> short, to >>>>>> make >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s >>>>>>>>>>>> descendant?more >>>>>>>> precisely, >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table >>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>> H?tel de >>>>>>>>>>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a >>>>>>>>>>>> tattered, >>>>>> dirty, >>>>>>>>>>>> blood-stained >>>>>>>>>>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, >>>>>>>>>>>> and my >>>>>> blood >>>>>>>>>>> rushes >>>>>>>>>>>> to my >>>>>>>>>>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the >>>>>>>>>>>> house by >>>> the >>>>>> sea >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The >>>>>>>>>>>> decision was >>>>>>> made: >>>>>>>>>>> death >>>>>>>>>>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>> questions >>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you >>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice for >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> cause? >>>>>>>>>>>> What >>>>>>>>>>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? >>> Yes! >>>>>> How >>>>>>>>>>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All >>>>>>>>>>>> my life, >>>> if >>>>>>>>>>> necessary! >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. >>>>>>>>>>>> You can?t >>>>>> wait >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> travel, >>>>>>>>>>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just >>>>>>>>>>>> leave >>>> Anatolia >>>>>>> here >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and >>>>>>>>>>>> back to >>>>>> Ankara >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a >>>>>> minister?women, >>>>>>>>>>> wining >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can >>>>>>>>>>>> spend my >>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>>> life in >>>>>>>>>>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, >>>>>>>>>>>> or drowned >>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>> Mustafa >>>>>>>>>>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t >>>>>>>>>>>> you ask >>>>>>> yourself >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you >>>>>>>>>>>> afraid of >>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, >>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>> thinking? >>>>>>> No. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> first knew >>>>>>>>>>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you >>>>>>>>>>>> ready to be >>>>>>>> disabled, >>>>>>>>>>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And >>>>>>>>>>>> TB, heart >>>>>>> disease, >>>>>>>>>>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I >>>>>>>>>>>> hadn?t >>>>>> thought >>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes >>>>>>>>>>>> tight and >>>>>>> walked >>>>>>>>>>> around >>>>>>>>>>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I >>>>>>>>>>>> walked around >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> room >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but >>>>>>>>>>>> I didn?t >>>>>> open >>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>> eyes. >>>>>>>>>>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I >>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>> accept >>>>>>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this >>>>>>>>>>>> is the >>>>>> truth. >>>>>>>> Not >>>>>>>>>>>> books or >>>>>>>>>>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition >>>>>>>>>>>> brought me >>>> where >>>>>> I >>>>>>> am. >>>>>>>>>>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had >>>>>>>>>>>> seen only on >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. >>>> That?s >>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>>> Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, >>>>>>> Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. >>>>>>> Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of *Review of >>>>>>> Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* >>>>>> vol.39, >>>>>>> 2017 >>>>>>> Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social >> Imagination: >>>> An >>>>>>> Intellectual Genealogy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 >>>>>>> Webpage: >>>>>>> https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy >>>>>> must be >>>>>>> born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* >>>>>>> John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Beth Ferholt >>>>> Associate Professor >>>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn >>>>> College, City University of New York >>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>>> >>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Beth Ferholt >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, >>>> City University of New York >>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>> >>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>>> >>> > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Thu Nov 9 03:08:36 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 13:08:36 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Appassionata? reflecting human soul... 9 Kas 2017 12:21 tarihinde "David Kellogg" yazd?: > Ulvi-- > > Can you give me an example of a "realist" piano sonata? Do you mean > something like "4:22" by John Cage? > > David Kellogg > > On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > I intended to mean that if a gesture, belonging to social reality, is a > > work of art, a realist artist, an artist who adopted realism as a > literary > > approach, will conceive this gesture in real life as a work of art > compared > > with any other artist who is not a realist one, who does not adopt > realism > > in literature as a main approach for his artistic creation. > > > > > > > > On 9 November 2017 at 10:20, WEBSTER, DAVID S. > > > wrote: > > > > > This ought to be of interest - In the 'Principles of Art' Collingwood > > > writes that ?[e]very utterance > > > and every gesture that each one of us makes is a work of art? (P. Art, > > > 285). See https://www.academia.edu/35044244/Landes_-_ > > > Collingwoods_Difficult_Ethics_2010_APA_Paper_ for discussion > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > > > Sent: 08 November 2017 16:15 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning > from > > > life experiences > > > > > > Thank you Beth. > > > I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion, > > > imagination and creativity. > > > > > > Congratulations. > > > > > > Ulvi > > > > > > 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" yazd?: > > > > > > > To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > > > > Punishment > > > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > > > > formation > > > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center > > > > > was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > > > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is > > > > > the better place to look is very interesting, and a response would > > > > > have something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide > > > > > because in suicide and some art you have an end point: In > > > > > autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to have the > > > closure, too. > > > > > > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf > shows > > > > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is > > > > > helpful > > > > here. > > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Thank you Robert! > > > > >> > > > > >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > > > > >> > > > > >> yazd?: > > > > >> > > > > >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > > > >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in > > > > >> > 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to this > > > > >> > with his students this way. > > > > >> > ? > > > > >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing > > > > >> > about > > > > >> things > > > > >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > > > > >> > self-repair > > > > ? > > > > >> how > > > > >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > > > > "meta," > > > > >> to > > > > >> > think about their ways of thinking. > > > > >> > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > > > >> > , 1984. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > *Robert L.* > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Retrieved from : > > > > >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > > > >> > meta-all-the-time/ > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > > > >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > > > >> > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks back > > > > >> > > over their life, and the experiences which have shaped them, > > > > >> > > reassessing how they responded to events intervening in their > > > > >> > > life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's multi-volume > > > > >> > > autobiography to you, > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be > > > > >> > > > a > > > > >> > principal > > > > >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > > > >> > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > > > > literature... > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, > is > > > > >> > > > to > > > > >> look > > > > >> > > into > > > > >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do > not > > > > >> > > > use > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > > concept, > > > > >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in > > > > >> > > > those > > > > >> > theses... > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > > > >> > "perezhivanie" > > > > >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > > > > >> > > > Tsvetaeva...who > > > > all > > > > >> > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua > > > > >> > > >> non > > > > >> concept > > > > >> > > for > > > > >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, > > > > >> > > >> and > > > > many > > > > >> > > others. > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should > > > > >> > > >> not be > > > > >> > > studied > > > > >> > > >> without this concept. > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> Completely impossible. > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > > > > >> > > >> sounds, > > > > >> > thoughts > > > > >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and > > > > >> > > >> affect, > > > > >> > cognition > > > > >> > > >> and emotion. > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because > > > > >> > > >> for > > > > >> > instance, > > > > >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says > > > > >> > > >> that > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on > > > > >> > > >> colour in > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > poems > > > > >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > > > > >> > > >> sensitive > > > > to > > > > >> > > sounds > > > > >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > > > > language > > > > >> and > > > > >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of > > > > >> > > >> rythm > > > > >> in > > > > >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > > > > >> > > >> databases? A > > > > >> poet > > > > >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > > > > >> > > >>> as well: > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > >> > > >>> Andy > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > >> > > >>> ------------------------------ > ----------------------------- > > > > >> > > >>> - > > > > >> > > >>> Andy Blunden > > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > >> > > >>>> Dear all, > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and > > > > >> > > >>>> playwright, > > > > Nazim > > > > >> > > >>> Hikmet, > > > > >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > > > >> experiences > > > > >> > at > > > > >> > > >>> each > > > > >> > > >>>> stage of his life, > > > > >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general > on > > > > >> learning > > > > >> > > from > > > > >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great > > > > >> > > >>>> poets, > > > > >> > > painters > > > > >> > > >>> and > > > > >> > > >>>> play writers. > > > > >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section > > > > >> > > >>>> below > > > > from > > > > >> > his > > > > >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a > > > > >> > > >>>> theoretical > > > > >> > approach. > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > >> > > >>>> Thank you. > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > >> > > >>>> Ulvi > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. > A > > > > table > > > > >> > with > > > > >> > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval > > > > >> > > >>>> table > > > > was > > > > >> > > >>> covered > > > > >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside > house > > > > >> > > >>>> in > > > > >> > > ?sk?dar, a > > > > >> > > >>>> rococo > > > > >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I > > > > >> > > >>>> made > > > > >> from > > > > >> > > the > > > > >> > > >>>> Black > > > > >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > > > >> thirty-five-day, > > > > >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > > > >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in > > > > >> > > >>>> short, to > > > > >> make > > > > >> > a > > > > >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s > > > > >> > > >>>> descendant?more > > > > >> > > precisely, > > > > >> > > >>> a > > > > >> > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in > > > > >> > > >>>> the > > > > >> H?tel de > > > > >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a > > > > >> > > >>>> tattered, > > > > >> dirty, > > > > >> > > >>>> blood-stained > > > > >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and > > > > >> > > >>>> my > > > > >> blood > > > > >> > > >>> rushes > > > > >> > > >>>> to my > > > > >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house > > > > >> > > >>>> by > > > > the > > > > >> sea > > > > >> > > in > > > > >> > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The > > > > >> > > >>>> decision was > > > > >> > made: > > > > >> > > >>> death > > > > >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > > > > >> questions > > > > >> > on > > > > >> > > >>> this > > > > >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you > sacrifice > > > > >> > > >>>> for > > > > >> this > > > > >> > > >>> cause? > > > > >> > > >>>> What > > > > >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your > freedom? > > > Yes! > > > > >> How > > > > >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my > > > > >> > > >>>> life, > > > > if > > > > >> > > >>> necessary! > > > > >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You > > > > >> > > >>>> can?t > > > > >> wait > > > > >> > to > > > > >> > > >>>> travel, > > > > >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > > > > Anatolia > > > > >> > here > > > > >> > > on > > > > >> > > >>>> this > > > > >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and > back > > > > >> > > >>>> to > > > > >> Ankara > > > > >> > > >>> from > > > > >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > > > >> minister?women, > > > > >> > > >>> wining > > > > >> > > >>>> and > > > > >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can > > > > >> > > >>>> spend my > > > > >> whole > > > > >> > > >>> life in > > > > >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > > > > >> > > >>>> drowned > > > > >> like > > > > >> > > >>> Mustafa > > > > >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you > > > > >> > > >>>> ask > > > > >> > yourself > > > > >> > > >>> these > > > > >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid > > > > >> > > >>>> of > > > > >> being > > > > >> > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > > > > thinking? > > > > >> > No. > > > > >> > > I > > > > >> > > >>>> first knew > > > > >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready > to > > > > >> > > >>>> be > > > > >> > > disabled, > > > > >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, > > > > >> > > >>>> heart > > > > >> > disease, > > > > >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I > > > > >> > > >>>> hadn?t > > > > >> thought > > > > >> > > >>> about > > > > >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes > tight > > > > >> > > >>>> and > > > > >> > walked > > > > >> > > >>> around > > > > >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked > > > > >> > > >>>> around > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > room > > > > >> > > >>> in > > > > >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I > > > > >> > > >>>> didn?t > > > > >> open > > > > >> > my > > > > >> > > >>> eyes. > > > > >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can > > > > accept > > > > >> > > >>> blindness. > > > > >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is > > > > >> > > >>>> the > > > > >> truth. > > > > >> > > Not > > > > >> > > >>>> books or > > > > >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought > me > > > > where > > > > >> I > > > > >> > am. > > > > >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen > > > > >> > > >>>> only on > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I > am. > > > > That?s > > > > >> > how > > > > >> > > >>> it is > > > > >> > > >>>> . > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > -- > > > > >> > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > > >> > Associate Professor > > > > >> > Social Foundations of Education > > > > >> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > > > > >> > University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of > > > > >> > *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > > > >> vol.39, > > > > >> > 2017 > > > > >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social > > Imagination: > > > > An > > > > >> > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > > > >> > Webpage: > > > > >> > https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > > > > >> must be > > > > >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* > > > > >> > John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > Associate Professor > > > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > > > > City University of New York > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > Associate Professor > > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > City > > > > University of New York > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Nov 9 13:31:53 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 06:31:53 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Beethoven never called his Piano Sonata 23 in F minor the "Appassionata," and there is no evidence that he considered it holding up a mirror to his own feelings or those of anybody else. Actually, Sonata 23 obeys a set of formal rules rather strictly.The first movement includes the four note "gestalt" with which Beethoven opens the Fifth Symphony, where it supposedly means "Victory" because of a similarity to the letter "V" in Morse code (invented twenty years after Beethoven composed the Fifth!) Yes, there are works of music that attempt "reflectional" realism (e.g. the Pastoral, where Beethoven does name both the symphony and the movements and even inserts indexical gestures, like flutes for the twittering birds). There are also works of literature that attempt something like the sonata form (Gertrude Stein). But I think that reason why literature tends to realism and music tends to formalism is precisely the distinction that Sasha is so anxious to deny--the distinction between feeling and thinking as two qualitatively different ways of rendering reality to consciousness, each perfectly adapted to a different mode of reality, and hence qualitatively different (for the same reason that one is quotable and the other is not). Sasha says that ???????????, reflection, is the starting point of any Marxist understanding of consciousness. I suppose that believing in the reality of a mirror is a step forward when we compare it to believing in the reality of a ghost. But I don't see that believing that a mirror constitutes a theory of consciousness is a step forward from believing that a ghost is a theory of consciousness. On the contrary; it looks to me like exactly the same theory: it is a model of the mind based on nothing more than corporeal imagery. Stalin remarked about Shostakovich's work that it was "muddle instead of music" (and ironically it was Shostakovich's attempt at realism, Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk!). In this Stalin showed exactly the same discernment as someone who wishes that foreigners spoke a proper language instead of just making funny noises. It is about as Marxist as when the American president sends his aide de camp to us in Korea to warn us against serving him adventurous ethnic cuisines and to ask us to stick to normal food like overdone steaks with two scoops of ice cream. David Kellogg On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Appassionata? > > reflecting human soul... > > 9 Kas 2017 12:21 tarihinde "David Kellogg" yazd?: > > > Ulvi-- > > > > Can you give me an example of a "realist" piano sonata? Do you mean > > something like "4:22" by John Cage? > > > > David Kellogg > > > > On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > I intended to mean that if a gesture, belonging to social reality, is a > > > work of art, a realist artist, an artist who adopted realism as a > > literary > > > approach, will conceive this gesture in real life as a work of art > > compared > > > with any other artist who is not a realist one, who does not adopt > > realism > > > in literature as a main approach for his artistic creation. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9 November 2017 at 10:20, WEBSTER, DAVID S. < > d.s.webster@durham.ac.uk > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > This ought to be of interest - In the 'Principles of Art' > Collingwood > > > > writes that ?[e]very utterance > > > > and every gesture that each one of us makes is a work of art? (P. > Art, > > > > 285). See https://www.academia.edu/35044244/Landes_-_ > > > > Collingwoods_Difficult_Ethics_2010_APA_Paper_ for discussion > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > > > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > > > > Sent: 08 November 2017 16:15 > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning > > from > > > > life experiences > > > > > > > > Thank you Beth. > > > > I was just looking at your thesis which handles cognition, emotion, > > > > imagination and creativity. > > > > > > > > Congratulations. > > > > > > > > Ulvi > > > > > > > > 8 Kas 2017 19:09 tarihinde "Beth Ferholt" > yazd?: > > > > > > > > > To be clear -- combine these two USING the "going meta", Beth > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > > > > > Punishment > > > > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > > > > > formation > > > > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center > > > > > > was Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is > > > > > > the better place to look is very interesting, and a response > would > > > > > > have something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide > > > > > > because in suicide and some art you have an end point: In > > > > > > autobiography you have the "I", I suppose, but you need to have > the > > > > closure, too. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf > > shows > > > > > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is > > > > > > helpful > > > > > here. > > > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Thank you Robert! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" > > > > > >> > > > > > >> yazd?: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > > > > >> > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back > in > > > > > >> > 1984 before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner referred to this > > > > > >> > with his students this way. > > > > > >> > ? > > > > > >> > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing > > > > > >> > about > > > > > >> things > > > > > >> > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > > > > > >> > self-repair > > > > > ? > > > > > >> how > > > > > >> > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to > go > > > > > "meta," > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > think about their ways of thinking. > > > > > >> > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > > > > >> > , > 1984. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > *Robert L.* > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Retrieved from : > > > > > >> > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > > > > >> > meta-all-the-time/ > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden < > ablunden@mira.net > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > > > > >> > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > > > > >> > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > back > > > > > >> > > over their life, and the experiences which have shaped them, > > > > > >> > > reassessing how they responded to events intervening in > their > > > > > >> > > life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's multi-volume > > > > > >> > > autobiography to you, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > >> > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > >> > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to > be > > > > > >> > > > a > > > > > >> > principal > > > > > >> > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > > > > >> > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > > > > > literature... > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, > > is > > > > > >> > > > to > > > > > >> look > > > > > >> > > into > > > > > >> > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do > > not > > > > > >> > > > use > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > > concept, > > > > > >> > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in > > > > > >> > > > those > > > > > >> > theses... > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > > > > >> > "perezhivanie" > > > > > >> > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > > > > > >> > > > Tsvetaeva...who > > > > > all > > > > > >> > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il < > ulvi.icil@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine > qua > > > > > >> > > >> non > > > > > >> concept > > > > > >> > > for > > > > > >> > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: > Pushkin, > > > > > >> > > >> and > > > > > many > > > > > >> > > others. > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and > should > > > > > >> > > >> not be > > > > > >> > > studied > > > > > >> > > >> without this concept. > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> Completely impossible. > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > > > > > >> > > >> sounds, > > > > > >> > thoughts > > > > > >> > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and > > > > > >> > > >> affect, > > > > > >> > cognition > > > > > >> > > >> and emotion. > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" > because > > > > > >> > > >> for > > > > > >> > instance, > > > > > >> > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) > says > > > > > >> > > >> that > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on > > > > > >> > > >> colour in > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > poems > > > > > >> > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > > > > > >> > > >> sensitive > > > > > to > > > > > >> > > sounds > > > > > >> > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > > > > > language > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation > of > > > > > >> > > >> rythm > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > > > > > >> > > >> databases? A > > > > > >> poet > > > > > >> > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be > read > > > > > >> > > >>> as well: > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > > >>> Andy > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > > >>> ------------------------------ > > ----------------------------- > > > > > >> > > >>> - > > > > > >> > > >>> Andy Blunden > > > > > >> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > >> > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > >> > > >>>> Dear all, > > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and > > > > > >> > > >>>> playwright, > > > > > Nazim > > > > > >> > > >>> Hikmet, > > > > > >> > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > > > > >> experiences > > > > > >> > at > > > > > >> > > >>> each > > > > > >> > > >>>> stage of his life, > > > > > >> > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general > > on > > > > > >> learning > > > > > >> > > from > > > > > >> > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great > > > > > >> > > >>>> poets, > > > > > >> > > painters > > > > > >> > > >>> and > > > > > >> > > >>>> play writers. > > > > > >> > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section > > > > > >> > > >>>> below > > > > > from > > > > > >> > his > > > > > >> > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a > > > > > >> > > >>>> theoretical > > > > > >> > approach. > > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>> Thank you. > > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>> Ulvi > > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in > Batum. > > A > > > > > table > > > > > >> > with > > > > > >> > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval > > > > > >> > > >>>> table > > > > > was > > > > > >> > > >>> covered > > > > > >> > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside > > house > > > > > >> > > >>>> in > > > > > >> > > ?sk?dar, a > > > > > >> > > >>>> rococo > > > > > >> > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The > journey I > > > > > >> > > >>>> made > > > > > >> from > > > > > >> > > the > > > > > >> > > >>>> Black > > > > > >> > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > > > > >> thirty-five-day, > > > > > >> > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > > > > >> > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in > > > > > >> > > >>>> short, to > > > > > >> make > > > > > >> > a > > > > > >> > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s > > > > > >> > > >>>> descendant?more > > > > > >> > > precisely, > > > > > >> > > >>> a > > > > > >> > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in > > > > > >> > > >>>> the > > > > > >> H?tel de > > > > > >> > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a > > > > > >> > > >>>> tattered, > > > > > >> dirty, > > > > > >> > > >>>> blood-stained > > > > > >> > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, > and > > > > > >> > > >>>> my > > > > > >> blood > > > > > >> > > >>> rushes > > > > > >> > > >>>> to my > > > > > >> > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the > house > > > > > >> > > >>>> by > > > > > the > > > > > >> sea > > > > > >> > > in > > > > > >> > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The > > > > > >> > > >>>> decision was > > > > > >> > made: > > > > > >> > > >>> death > > > > > >> > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put > the > > > > > >> questions > > > > > >> > on > > > > > >> > > >>> this > > > > > >> > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you > > sacrifice > > > > > >> > > >>>> for > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> > > >>> cause? > > > > > >> > > >>>> What > > > > > >> > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your > > freedom? > > > > Yes! > > > > > >> How > > > > > >> > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my > > > > > >> > > >>>> life, > > > > > if > > > > > >> > > >>> necessary! > > > > > >> > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You > > > > > >> > > >>>> can?t > > > > > >> wait > > > > > >> > to > > > > > >> > > >>>> travel, > > > > > >> > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > > > > > Anatolia > > > > > >> > here > > > > > >> > > on > > > > > >> > > >>>> this > > > > > >> > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and > > back > > > > > >> > > >>>> to > > > > > >> Ankara > > > > > >> > > >>> from > > > > > >> > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > > > > >> minister?women, > > > > > >> > > >>> wining > > > > > >> > > >>>> and > > > > > >> > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can > > > > > >> > > >>>> spend my > > > > > >> whole > > > > > >> > > >>> life in > > > > > >> > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > > > > > >> > > >>>> drowned > > > > > >> like > > > > > >> > > >>> Mustafa > > > > > >> > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t > you > > > > > >> > > >>>> ask > > > > > >> > yourself > > > > > >> > > >>> these > > > > > >> > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you > afraid > > > > > >> > > >>>> of > > > > > >> being > > > > > >> > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > > > > > thinking? > > > > > >> > No. > > > > > >> > > I > > > > > >> > > >>>> first knew > > > > > >> > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready > > to > > > > > >> > > >>>> be > > > > > >> > > disabled, > > > > > >> > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, > > > > > >> > > >>>> heart > > > > > >> > disease, > > > > > >> > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I > > > > > >> > > >>>> hadn?t > > > > > >> thought > > > > > >> > > >>> about > > > > > >> > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes > > tight > > > > > >> > > >>>> and > > > > > >> > walked > > > > > >> > > >>> around > > > > > >> > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked > > > > > >> > > >>>> around > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > room > > > > > >> > > >>> in > > > > > >> > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I > > > > > >> > > >>>> didn?t > > > > > >> open > > > > > >> > my > > > > > >> > > >>> eyes. > > > > > >> > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I > can > > > > > accept > > > > > >> > > >>> blindness. > > > > > >> > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this > is > > > > > >> > > >>>> the > > > > > >> truth. > > > > > >> > > Not > > > > > >> > > >>>> books or > > > > > >> > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought > > me > > > > > where > > > > > >> I > > > > > >> > am. > > > > > >> > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen > > > > > >> > > >>>> only on > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I > > am. > > > > > That?s > > > > > >> > how > > > > > >> > > >>> it is > > > > > >> > > >>>> . > > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > -- > > > > > >> > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > > > >> > Associate Professor > > > > > >> > Social Foundations of Education > > > > > >> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > > > > > >> > University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of > > > > > >> > *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > > > > >> vol.39, > > > > > >> > 2017 > > > > > >> > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social > > > Imagination: > > > > > An > > > > > >> > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > > > > >> > Webpage: > > > > > >> > https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > > > > > >> must be > > > > > >> > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* > > > > > >> > John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > > Associate Professor > > > > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > > > > > City University of New York > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > Associate Professor > > > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, > > City > > > > > University of New York > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sat Nov 11 12:01:21 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 22:01:21 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Cathrene Connery - Natural vs. Human Dialectics & Perezshivanija Message-ID: Is Cathrene still a member of xmca? And/or does anyone possess this work please? I could not see it anywhere. Ulvi From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sat Nov 11 12:21:55 2017 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:21:55 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Cathrene Connery - Natural vs. Human Dialectics & Perezshivanija In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes ..she is still a part. On Nov 11, 2017 3:05 PM, "Ulvi ??il" wrote: > Is Cathrene still a member of xmca? > And/or does anyone possess this work please? > I could not see it anywhere. > > Ulvi > From alexander.surmava@yahoo.com Sat Nov 11 14:03:56 2017 From: alexander.surmava@yahoo.com (Alexander Surmava) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 22:03:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgUmU6CdCe0YLQsjogIFJlOiA6IE9iamVjdCBvcmll?= =?utf-8?q?nted_activity_and_communication?= In-Reply-To: References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> <1509961400413.22381@iped.uio.no> <625325354.7444882.1510092080294@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1570713293.589277.1510437836252@mail.yahoo.com> | ??????? ????? ??????! ???? ??????? ????????????? ?????????, ??? ?????? ? ?????? ??????? ??????????. ??? ???, ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??????????? ? ?????? ? ???? ?? ?????????????? ?????, ???? ????????????? ??????? ????????? ??????????????, ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???????? ???????????. ???, ?? ???????????, ??? ???????? ????? ????? ???? ???-?? ??????? ??? ?????????, ?? ???????????? ??? ???????? ???????? ??? ???? ????. ? ????, ???????? ??????????? ???????????? ????? ??????, ????????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???????, ??? ?? ???????? ???????? ??????????, ????????? ?? ??????? ??????????? ???? ? ????, ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????????? ????????? ????????????? ???????? ???????? ? ?????????? ???????? ?????, ?? ???? ??????????? ????????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ???? ???????????? ???????????? ? ???????????? ???????????? ??????. ?????? ???????, ?????????????? ?? ????????? ??????????? ?????????? ????. ???????? ????? ????????? ???????????? ????? ????????????? ???????? ? ?? ?????? ?????? ??????, ??? ? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???????????????? ????????? ??????????? ??????? ? ?????? ?? ???????? ????????? ???????????? ??????????????. ?????? ??? ?????????? ???? ???????????? ????????????? ????????? ??? ???????? ???????, ?? ????? ?? ??? ??????????, ? ?????? ??????? - ???????. ???? ????????? ????? ?????????????? ??? ?????????? ? ??????????????, ? ????? ???? ??????????????? ??????????? ? ???????????. | Dear David Kellogg! Your remarks are extremely interesting, for they are always extremely unexpected. While both of us seem to belong to the same academic circle, our theoretical views are so opposite that it can not fail to impress the imagination. So, you say that "free will" can be something difficult for philosophy, but at the same time it is an axiom for a number of sciences. From my, perhaps old-fashioned Marxist point of view, what you said can only be understood in such a way that you consider scientific those disciplines that come from a naive religious belief in a miracle. Only a miracle can be the principle of "explaining" the "freedom of will" attributed to man by religion and idealism, that is, the ability to act in one way or another in spite of the pressure of the whole aggregate of natural and historical material causes. I do not know how you can call "science," a discipline based on the postulate of the possibility of an abstract miracle. Given such a serious discrepancy between our theoretical views, I will specify, just in case, that in the mouth of a Marxist the denial of "free will" does not at all mean fatalistic denial of the possibility of freedom and does not mean at all the denial of elementary arbitrariness. The parable of Buridan's ass is a theoretical difficulty for the dualist Descartes, but not for dialectics, and therefore for the monist Spinoza. If what is said here seems incomprehensible and paradoxical to you, I am ready to give relevant explanations and comments. | | ??? ???????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ?????? ? ????????, ??????????? ???? ???? ????????????? ?????, ??, ???, ? ????? ? ???????? ?????????. ??? ??????-?? ???????, ??? ???? ? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????????. ? ??? ???? ? ?? ?? ???????? ???? ????? ?????????? ????? ??????????????? ?????. ?????? ?? ?? ????????? ?????????? ???????????, ??? ???? ?? ? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ????, ????? ??????? ???? ????????? ?????. ?? ?? ?????, ?????, ????? ??????? ? ? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????????, ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ????????. ?? ?????????? ?? ?????, ?? ????, ????????????. ???????, ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???????, ?? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ????? ?? ??, ??? ?? ??????. ?? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ????????? ???????? ??? ???????, ?????????? ?? ????????? ???? ? ????????? ???????? ??? ?????????? (????????-???????????????) ????????????. | As for the non-transmissibility of individual feelings and, on the contrary, the ability of words to be the translators of thought, then, alas, here again I have to object. For some reason it seems to me that the toothache of all is more or less the same. But the same meanings of words very often cover directly opposite thoughts. Let's say diplomats openly formulate that the language for them and their colleagues is given in order to hide their true thoughts. The same, I think, can be said about all other forms of ideology, that is, forms of false consciousness. Do not deceive not the word, but the deed, the activity. Therefore, if we want to find out what our partner really thinks, we should first of all look at what he is doing. But this already requires departing from the understanding of thinking as crafty, convention-based speech to understanding thinking as object-oriented activity. | | ???????, ?????????, ? ??????? ?????? ?????????. ??????????, ???????????? ?????????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???????? ????????? ?? ????? ? ?????? ???, ??? ??? ? ??? ????????. ?? ?????, ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????????? ???????? ???????, ?????????? ???? ?? ???????? ????????. ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????????? ???????, ? ???????? ??????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????. ??? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ?????? ? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????????????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???????????. ??? ???? ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????????. ?? ????, ??? ???????? ????? ????????, ?? ????????? ??????, ??? ?????-?? ???????????? ?????? ?? ????????? ??? ?????????, ????, ???? ??? ?? ???????? ????-?? ????????, ????? ?????????? ? ??????? ?? 1956 ????, ? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ? ????, ??? ??????????????, ????????? ?????????? ??????????. ?????? ????, ??? ??? ?? ???????? ?? ????? ????? ? ?????????????? ????????? ????????? ? ??????? ? ??? ??????-?????????? ??????? ? ????????????? ????????? ?? ????????? ???????? ? ??????? ??????????. ?? ? ??? ?? ????? ? ????? ???????? ?????? ????????? ?? ????????? ?????????????, ? ?? ?? ?????-?? ?????? ???????. ? ?????, ? ?????????, ? ????????? ??????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??????????? ????????????? ???????????????? ????????????? ???????????, ? ?? ?? ?????? ? ?????. ? ? ????????? ?.?.???????? ??????????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ? ?????????? ? ??? ????????, ? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ????????????? ?????? ??????? ? ????? ? ?????????????? ??????? ?.?.???????????, ??????? ?? ??????????? ?? ??????????? ??? ????? ?????. ? ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ???????????? ??????? ??????? ?????????? - ?miserable article?? ???? ??? ???, ?? ????????????? ?? ? ???? ????? ?? ???????????? ??????????????? ????????????? ? ???????????? ????????. ????? ?????????? ???? | Finally, the last one, about the report of David Bakhurst. Of course, the repressive Stalinist regime could not but place the scars on the life and fate of those who lived in its conditions. But I think that in any case, examples of such terrible influence, mentioned by you are extremely unfortunate. Leontiev was never a fan of Lysenko, and Ilyenkov never considered Stalin as an outstanding philosopher. Moreover, it would never have occurred to him to put the imaginary theoretical merits of Stalin above his own. These things are so obvious that it does not even make sense to discuss them. I do not know what David Bakhurst dug out, but I'm absolutely sure that some dubious quotes from Leontyev or Ilyenkov, even if they are not someone's fake, could be related to the period before 1956, and so they can be as little imputed they are guilty, like "hello", said hostage to the terrorist. It is another matter that Leontyev treated Pavlov with his stimulus-reactive teaching with an exaggerated reverence for the rest of his life and warned Ilyenkov of public polemics with the theory of the latter. But this he did to protect Ilyenkov from possible persecution, and not from some low motives. In general, both Leontief and Ilyenkov should be judged not by their forced political circumstances by imprudent statements, but by their thoughts and deeds. And in particular, AN Leontiev deserves the deepest respect and admiration both as a theorist and as a person for his brilliant article "The Teaching on the Environment in Pedagogical Works of LS Vygotsky," which he consciously did not publish in his lifetime. I was not mistaken? It was this article you contemptuously called "a miserable article"? If this is so, then we really stand on diametrically opposite theoretical and moral positions. All the best Sasha | ??: David Kellogg ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ??????????: ?????, 8 ?????? 2017 13:49 ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: : Object oriented activity and communication I think that a conclusion can be perfectly absurd in philosophy, and yet completely correct in science. For example, the idea of free will is a problem in philosophy (partly because of the history of philosophy in religion), but it is essentially a postulate for science (because whole branches of science, including psychology, sociology and history, cease to exist without it). So the conclusion which Sasha calls absurd--that words are material and social and feelings are a void of that social, materiality--do seem scientifically correct to me. That was what I was trying to convey when I said that thoughts are quotable but feelings are not; that it is impossible to know if Sasha and I have the same feeling when we both have a toothache, but it is literally impossible NOT to know when and to what extent Sasha and I have the same thought when we use words, because the very use of words is precisely the process of coming to some kind of agreement about the nature of their meanings. As Hamlet says, "This was sometime a paradox, but now the time gives it proof." One of the plenaries in Quebec City that we haven't discussed yet was that of David Bakhurst on Ilyenkov's first run-in with Soviet philosophy, "Punks versus Zombies". One of the many important points that Bakhurst made was that, as any materialist would expect, the kind of repression that Leontiev and Ilyenkov lived under did not, seemingly, kill them, but left terrible scars on their work (not so much Leontiev's miserable article on the environment but his abject capitulation to Lysenko, and Ilyenkov's statement that Stalin had done philosophical work far more important than his own). The ending of Bakhurst's talk was, as he said, like that of a "Train to Busan": just when you think that our hero has escaped, a hand reaches out and drags him off...and the only fingerprints are those of the hero himself. David Kellogg On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Alexander Surmava < alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> wrote: > Dear Colleagues. > > I must apologize for the long silence. > Meanwhile, our discussion is becoming more and more interesting for me, > pushing for new reflections and new plans. Well, or to return to the old > plans, the implementation of which I have long postponed. > I am referring to my plans to embark on a study with the aim to clarify > the Marxist view of the concept of "ideality" - the central category of > classical philosophy, starting at least from Plato. "The dialectic of > ideality" was the last theoretical work of Ilyenkov. Meanwhile, there is > enough reasons to believe that this topic, which was of the utmost > importance for philosophy and psychology, was far from complete. > Below, I will publish a rather large post, the logic of which brings our > discussion to the discussion of the problem of ideality. > In the meantime looking ahead I want to say that Bakhtin / Voloshinov, who > emerged in our conversation with his popular essay "Marxism and the > Philosophy of Language" with his "brilliant" substitution of the category > "ideality" with the category "ideology" is a gift for our future work on > ideality, for in a concentrated form he demonstrates how a false > understanding of ideality leads to a complete break with Marxism. > > Sasha > > > ------------------------------ > *??:* Alfredo Jornet Gil > *????:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *??????????:* ???????????, 6 ?????? 2017 12:45 > *????:* [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > As a clarification, that sounds clear to me, David, thanks! I wonder how > does that sound to others, > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: 06 November 2017 10:37 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > I'll try, Alfredo. > > I think that Sasha and Haydi are arguing that if we accept language as > sign, we risk treating it as a superstructure that has freed itself from > its base, that is, the labor of the worker and the peasant, labor which has > the power to materially transform a material environment. This is a move > they oppose, because there is the danger that a semiotic superstructure > will supply itself a "different" base--that is, a base not in the laborer > who materially transforms the material environment but rather in the > thinker who ideologically transforms an ideal context and thus acts on > himself or herself but leaves the worker and the peasant in the lurch. > Both Sasha and Haydi consider Leontiev and activity as an important > countermeasure to this semanticizing tendency in Vygotsky.This is an > argument with a lot of history, and it is one that I reject. > > I don't simply reject it on behalf of the child, who has to master signs > before she or he can master tools (and even when the child can master > tools, viz. toy tools, the child must master them as signs--as > meanings--and not as a means to transform the social environment.? I also > reject it on the part of the worker and the peasant, as did Brecht, as did > Vygotsky, and...as did Volosinov. For if Haydi is going to read the whole > of Volosinov, he must indeed select aspects of Volosinov that he does not > like, including Volosinov's very Marxist distinction between the way that > the peasant experiences hunger and the way that the worker experiences it: > these are indeed different poles of the same experience, and one can go > much closer to the 'we pole' than the other. (The reason why the Chinese > famine of 1959-1961 was so devestating was precisely that it was > experienced very differently in the cities than in the countryside.) > > The use of "pole" is not mine; it is that of Volosinov (p. 87). Similarly, > the use of "water into wine" is not mine; it is that of Vygotsky > (Psychology of Art, p. 243). Vygotsky is rejecting the Bukharinist notion > of Proletkult, that of the artist as a Christlike figure, multiplying bread > and fishes for the masses. For Vygotsky, this isn't much of a miracle at > all, it is precisely what peasants and workers quite without art every > single day of their working lives. If we want art to permeate life, we > cannot do it by reducing art to the level of everyday experience: that is > not art permeating life, but only the tired old nineteenth century slogan > of life permeating art, repeated as Proletkult, as Soviet socialist > realism, and consequently, as Marx would say, as farce. > > David Kellogg > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could you > > or anyone else help me understand? > > > > I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist > > approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, > reading > > the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of > verbal > > communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and the > > sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). > > > > Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila > > Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs > 99% > > of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? > > > > Thanks, > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? > > Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > Alfredo, > > I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to get > > engaged in any more discussion. > > > > If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully > > and with care and attention and gratitude. > > > > You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to > > replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support > > from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a piece > > which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both of > > the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not > > tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from such > > condemnation. > > > > It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual > base. > > The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the over > > one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over > ones > > become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing the > > previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as generative > of > > their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and the > > whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and > > slave owners (old and new). > > > > When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating anymore > > but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. > > > > Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , as > > measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not just > a > > 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. > Here > > verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having > > co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion , > > sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the %1 > > pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 worship > > evil! > > Voila Voloshinov!! > > > > Best > > Haydi > > > > > >? ? ? From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > >? To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >? Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 > >? Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital > to > > Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, > Brecht, > > Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic education > > to privileged access. > > > > How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking > > about privileged access (to immediate experience)? > > > > Here was Sasha's critique: > > > > "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience > > (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of > > object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." > > > > and that, > > > > "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that the > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a verbal > > 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then any > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us the > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own > work, > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look > something > > inferior." > > > > Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we > > ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do > with > > exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the quest > > for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in words > > supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is the > > latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the > issue > > of democratic education? > > > > My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post pointed > > out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) seems > > quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than > > some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is a > > quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite fond > of > > Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply > > externalising something that had? been formed internally but rather > > thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical > > activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) > > experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it > that > > makes me suspicious. > > > > Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has > > been mobilised in the thread: > > > > "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" > > goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and > > alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not > > primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an > > individuation of a social emotion"? (D.K to Greg). > > > > I may be wrong or miss some of the background,? but to me, this type of > > argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, > who > > argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on > > converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs becoming > > magic arbitrary forces. > > > > I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it > > "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that > the > > most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of > the > > relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes > > resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a > > materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. > 40). > > If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche > and > > ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary > and > > objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then that > > social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. > > > > I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an > > I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For it > > is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. Volosinov > > in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two > poles > > constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: > > > > "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward > > expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) > > > > and > > > > "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular material > > (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a > fiction. > > It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction > from > > the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). > > > > But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, consciousness > > is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's > been > > posed here a fiction too? > > > > In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express > their > > life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their > > production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between 'expressing', > > 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT > > community. > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:? Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > activity and communication > > > > Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the > Philosophy > > of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is one > > end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be > > communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food is > > provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this > > experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that is, > > the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er > > lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie").? At the other end of the pole > > is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it is > > over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond > sullen > > and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the > > peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians > who > > reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight > of a > > satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their side. > > (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both > > poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and my > > English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) > > > > Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course > Brecht > > was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, > > where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He > wonders > > why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so much > > more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German by > > Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think this > is > > the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I > > experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to "we > > experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically > > transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not primordially > an > > "I experience" but an "I experience"? which is now an individuation of a > > social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on > > Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them actually > > supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help > > yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist > > Party). > > > > Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: > > > > We have hunger, hunger, hunger > > Have hunger, hunger hunger > > Have hunger, hunger hunger > > Have thirst. > > > > If we don't get something, get, get, get > > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > > >From the wall. > > > > If they don't taste good, taste, taste > > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > > >From the forest. > > > > If they don't last, last, last > > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > > >From the grave. > > > > If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice > > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > > >From the forest. > > > > (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks > into > > virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the > song > > much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of "hunger" > > with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it would > be > > far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) > > > > David Kellogg > > > > (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great heroine > > Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love > > with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand "gestically"..) > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ > > > > dk > > > > On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > > > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open > to > > > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > > > > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > > > archived). > > > > > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such think > as > > > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > > > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being > careful > > > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > > > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > > > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that this > > is > > > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, the > > > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > > > > > -greg? > > > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just > realized > > > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma > wrote: > > > > > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw > > > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > > > between > > > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged > > access > > > - > > > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of > one > > of > > > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it > happens > > > to > > > > be > > > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > > > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism > > implied > > > by > > > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this > > capacity > > > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these > are > > > > WEIRD > > > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in > some > > > > > cultural > > > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that > is > > > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm > thinking > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by > > > > seeing > > > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of > practical > > > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > > > Volosinov's > > > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something > > > > > different > > > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and > not?)? > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, > but > > > > seems > > > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the > vein > > > of > > > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > > > subject/object, > > > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels > > is > > > > his > > > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is > communicated > > > is > > > > a > > > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable > thought > > > > "I'm > > > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even > > > > > "Grandpa > > > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself".? I think that > > when > > > > > Alan > > > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of > > > > seeing > > > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > > > concrete > > > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > > > address. > > > > > So > > > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not > confounded. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole > > flock > > > > > takes > > > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than > > "communication". > > > > > What > > > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is > > > afraid > > > > > of > > > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other > > > geese > > > > > are > > > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; > they > > > are > > > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the > > > pepper > > > > > on > > > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your > > cold. > > > > > There > > > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream > in > > a > > > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an > > > > > airplane > > > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated > was > > > the > > > > > >> fact > > > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. > > Adolfo > > > > > >> Garcia > > > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you > can > > > say > > > > > "My > > > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that > it > > > was > > > > > >> time > > > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was > > time > > > > for > > > > > >> breakfast".? Mental processes are one thing, and material > > processes > > > > are > > > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > > > reflect > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> knowledge. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details > > > > > >> > > > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett > > thinks > > > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has > > understood > > > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are > > actually > > > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > David > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel > their > > > > pain? > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson > > seems > > > to > > > > > >> feel > > > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they > poke > > > > their > > > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to > have > > > any > > > > > >> words > > > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and > such a > > > > way, > > > > > >> you > > > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the > expression > > > > > straight > > > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. > As > > > > Alan > > > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed > to > > a > > > > cow > > > > > in > > > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they are > > > > > called?) > > > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Julian > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on > > behalf > > > of > > > > > >> David > > > > > >> > Kellogg" > > > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? ? All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the > > > brain > > > > > >> > differently > > > > > >> >? ? than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to > MRI > > > > scans > > > > > >> or > > > > > >> >? ? computerized tomography. In fact these can and do > distinguish > > > > > >> between > > > > > >> > verbs > > > > > >> >? ? of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky > > did > > > > > have > > > > > >> > access > > > > > >> >? ? to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > > > words > > > > of > > > > > >> > another > > > > > >> >? ? person. I can say, for example: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with > Marxism". > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with > Marxism." > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as > I > > > can > > > > > >> read > > > > > >> >? ? Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote > > > the > > > > > >> > actions or > > > > > >> >? ? the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, > for > > > > > >> example: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha > > > > > thought a > > > > > >> > word > > > > > >> >? ? meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > > > cold." > > > > > >> This > > > > > >> > is > > > > > >> >? ? originally a line from the revolutionary opera > "Shajiabang", > > > > > about a > > > > > >> > woman > > > > > >> >? ? who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the > > > > > children > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> >? ? acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > > > officer; > > > > > >> they > > > > > >> >? ? accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that > > > all > > > > > >> people > > > > > >> > who > > > > > >> >? ? come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they > go, > > > > > their > > > > > >> > tea is > > > > > >> >? ? cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the > toothache > > > of > > > > > >> another > > > > > >> >? ? person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > > > words. > > > > > >> >? ? Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it > > > > > >> > "immediately", > > > > > >> >? ? because thoughts and words have already made the > dialectical > > > > > >> leap--the > > > > > >> > leap > > > > > >> >? ? from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? David Kellogg > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >? ? > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some > people > > > > > >> >? ? > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to > be > > > > > >> >? ? > the key category. > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is > activity > > > > > >> >? ? > in the case where production and consumption and socially > > > > > >> >? ? > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > > > >> >? ? > object of consumption should be included within the basic > > > > > >> >? ? > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important > > > > > >> >? ? > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > > > >> >? ? > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision > > of > > > > > >> >? ? > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > > > >> >? ? > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > > > >> >? ? > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against > > > > > >> >? ? > this move. > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa > > does > > > > > >> >? ? > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > Andy > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > > > >> >? ? > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > >> >? ? > Andy Blunden > > > > > >> >? ? > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > >> >? ? > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > > > >> >? ? > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for > > > > > myself I > > > > > >> > have > > > > > >> >? ? > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's > > > > sense) > > > > > >> is a > > > > > >> >? ? > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> >? ? > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > > > >> >? ? > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > > > >> >? ? > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > > > >> >? ? > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity; > > > > Mike > > > > > >> > Cole; > > > > > >> >? ? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > > >> >? ? > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > > oriented > > > > > >> > activity > > > > > >> >? ? > and communication > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Dear Alfredo, > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You > definitely > > > > > >> noticed > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> >? ? > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and > > developed > > > > > >> > technologies, > > > > > >> >? ? > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > > > >> exploiters, > > > > > >> > between > > > > > >> >? ? > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > > > opposite > > > > > >> > between > > > > > >> >? ? > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has > > > > always > > > > > >> been > > > > > >> > a > > > > > >> >? ? > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > > > cosmopolitan > > > > > >> class. > > > > > >> >? ? > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to > > > > fight > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > to kill > > > > > >> >? ? > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > > > cooperate > > > > > >> > with > > > > > >> >? ? > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to > > receive > > > > > >> > dividends from > > > > > >> >? ? > their enterprises located on the territory of their > > "enemy." > > > > > Today > > > > > >> > Putin's > > > > > >> >? ? > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take > > > their > > > > > >> > capitals to > > > > > >> >? ? > this West, buy property there, send their children to > study > > > > > there > > > > > >> > and go > > > > > >> >? ? > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > > > Poroshenko > > > > > >> - > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> >? ? > president of the country that was subje > > > > > >> >? ? > >? cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns > > > > > chocolate > > > > > >> >? ? > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > > > >> >? ? > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > > > States, > > > > > the > > > > > >> > policy > > > > > >> >? ? > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against > > > each > > > > > >> other > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> >? ? > working people of different ethnic groups and > confessions, > > > on > > > > > >> their > > > > > >> >? ? > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class > > > > > >> creatures. > > > > > >> >? ? > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity > incited > > > by > > > > > the > > > > > >> > ruling > > > > > >> >? ? > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > > > working > > > > > >> > people > > > > > >> >? ? > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, > > > > public > > > > > >> >? ? > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > > > constructed > > > > > >> > allegedly on > > > > > >> >? ? > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred > years > > > > ago, > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> >? ? > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, > the > > > > same > > > > > >> task > > > > > >> > is > > > > > >> >? ? > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > > > so-called > > > > > >> > "cultural" > > > > > >> >? ? > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > > > biological > > > > > >> > differences > > > > > >> >? ? > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > > > >> >? ? > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, > but > > > > also > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> >? ? > "psychology of culture". > > > > > >> >? ? > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only > in > > > > words > > > > > >> but > > > > > >> > also > > > > > >> >? ? > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is > > not > > > > the > > > > > >> > ability of > > > > > >> >? ? > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of > > words, > > > > but > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > be > > > > > >> >? ? > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the > subjects > > > of > > > > > >> labor. > > > > > >> >? ? > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > > > believed > > > > > >> > that the > > > > > >> >? ? > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking > is > > > > > just a > > > > > >> > verbal > > > > > >> >? ? > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver > to > > > > us, > > > > > >> then > > > > > >> > any > > > > > >> >? ? > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will > > > seem > > > > > to > > > > > >> us > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> >? ? > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant > > doing > > > > his > > > > > >> own > > > > > >> > work, > > > > > >> >? ? > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, > will > > > > look > > > > > >> > something > > > > > >> >? ? > inferior. > > > > > >> >? ? > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of > Vygotsky's > > > > > >> theory, > > > > > >> > open > > > > > >> >? ? > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph. > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not > only a > > > > > >> > transition > > > > > >> >? ? > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that > > is > > > > > >> capable > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> >? ? > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. > This > > > > > >> implies > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> >? ? > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively > > > > > different > > > > > >> > way in > > > > > >> >? ? > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This > > qualitative > > > > > >> > difference is > > > > > >> >? ? > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of > > reality. > > > > > >> > Therefore, > > > > > >> >? ? > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in > the > > > > true > > > > > >> > sense of > > > > > >> >? ? > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > > > inseparable > > > > > >> part > > > > > >> > of the > > > > > >> >? ? > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to > > > the > > > > > >> domain > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> >? ? > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an > empty > > > > > sound. > > > > > >> A > > > > > >> > word > > > > > >> >? ? > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of > speech. > > > One > > > > > >> > cannot say > > > > > >> >? ? > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of > the > > > > word > > > > > >> > taken > > > > > >> >? ? > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It > is > > > > both > > > > > at > > > > > >> > one and > > > > > >> >? ? > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > > > >> >? ? > >? nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be > that > > > of > > > > > >> > semantic > > > > > >> >? ? > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > > > meaningful > > > > > >> > aspect of > > > > > >> >? ? > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning. > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will > > produce > > > > > >> answers > > > > > >> > to > > > > > >> >? ? > our questions concerning the relationship between > thinking > > > and > > > > > >> speech > > > > > >> >? ? > because this relationship is already contained in the > unit > > > of > > > > > >> > analysis. In > > > > > >> >? ? > studying the function, structure, and development of this > > > > unit, > > > > > we > > > > > >> > will > > > > > >> >? ? > come to understand a great deal that is of direct > relevance > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > >> > problem > > > > > >> >? ? > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the > nature > > > of > > > > > >> verbal > > > > > >> >? ? > thinking." > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not > > the > > > > > >> > slightest > > > > > >> >? ? > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > > > attempt > > > > > to > > > > > >> > combine > > > > > >> >? ? > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with > the > > > > > school > > > > > >> > textbook > > > > > >> >? ? > of formal logic. > > > > > >> >? ? > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more > > > > > detailed > > > > > >> >? ? > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this > > analysis > > > > in > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > very > > > > > >> >? ? > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's > > > > > >> assertion > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> >? ? > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a > maximally > > > > > >> aphoristic > > > > > >> >? ? > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the > > > > > >> > materialists, the > > > > > >> >? ? > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is > the > > > > > >> > instrument of > > > > > >> >? ? > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > > > generalization > > > > > >> is > > > > > >> > not a > > > > > >> >? ? > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of > > > > > >> > generalizing the > > > > > >> >? ? > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means > of > > > > > >> > analyzing all > > > > > >> >? ? > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > > > optics > > > > > of > > > > > >> >? ? > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of > > > > > >> ideality.) > > > > > >> >? ? > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results > > of > > > > > >> Luria's > > > > > >> > trip > > > > > >> >? ? > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek > > > > > >> illiterate > > > > > >> >? ? > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo > > > > > >> >? ? > >? r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe > and > > > > > melon > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> >? ? > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless > > > > formal > > > > > >> > logical > > > > > >> >? ? > operations with words denoting these things, is declared > a > > > > > >> primitive > > > > > >> >? ? > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap > > who > > > > > knows > > > > > >> > how to > > > > > >> >? ? > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with > > > the > > > > > >> melon > > > > > >> > only > > > > > >> >? ? > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is > declared > > > > the > > > > > >> > bearer of > > > > > >> >? ? > scientific consciousness. > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, > > > come > > > > > to > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> >? ? > value of instruments of labor, not only for the > > distribution > > > > of > > > > > >> > material > > > > > >> >? ? > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > > > wealth, > > > > > for > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> >? ? > distribution of the ability to think, for the > distribution > > > of > > > > > >> > culture. Only > > > > > >> >? ? > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > > > culture > > > > as > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> >? ? > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > > > accumulated > > > > > >> by > > > > > >> >? ? > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of > such > > > > based > > > > > >> on > > > > > >> > idea of > > > > > >> >? ? > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be > > > able > > > > to > > > > > >> get > > > > > >> > out of > > > > > >> >? ? > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > > > arbitrariness. > > > > > >> >? ? > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously > > > set > > > > > the > > > > > >> > task of > > > > > >> >? ? > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > > > considered > > > > > that > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> >? ? > first real step in this direction was made by his friend > > and > > > > > >> student > > > > > >> > AN > > > > > >> >? ? > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > > > >> >? ? > > Sasha > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > >? ? ? ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > > >> >? ? > >? ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > >> > >; > > > > > >> >? ? > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > > > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > > > >; > > > > > >> > Martin > > > > > >> >? ? > John Packer ; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > < > > > > > >> >? ? > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > > > >> >? ? > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > > > >> >? ? > >? ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > > > >> >? ? > >? ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > oriented > > > > > >> activity > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> >? ? > communication > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > > > >> >? ? > Dear Sasha, all, > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > > > issues > > > > > at > > > > > >> > home > > > > > >> >? ? > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have > limited > > > > > >> > participation > > > > > >> >? ? > anywhere else than home life. > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like > a > > > > > >> concrete > > > > > >> > aspect > > > > > >> >? ? > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning > of > > > > this > > > > > >> >? ? > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical > (real) > > > > > >> relevance > > > > > >> > to us > > > > > >> >? ? > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is > this > > > > > >> 'real,' > > > > > >> > and is > > > > > >> >? ? > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > > > addressing > > > > > >> any > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> >? ? > everyone) > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Alfredo > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > > > >> >? ? > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > > > >> >? ? > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; > Alfredo > > > > > Jornet > > > > > >> > Gil; > > > > > >> >? ? > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > > >> >? ? > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > > oriented > > > > > >> > activity > > > > > >> >? ? > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going > > to > > > > > >> discuss > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> >? ? > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his > > > most > > > > > >> > mature work. > > > > > >> >? ? > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph > > > > > >> "Dialectics > > > > > >> > of the > > > > > >> >? ? > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am > aware > > > > that > > > > > >> > there is a > > > > > >> >? ? > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was > > > > > >> adequately > > > > > >> >? ? > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > > > Marx's > > > > > >> > theory was > > > > > >> >? ? > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism is > > > > better > > > > > to > > > > > >> > study > > > > > >> >? ? > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of > ?Das > > > > > >> Kapital?. > > > > > >> > Along > > > > > >> >? ? > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that > the > > > > > >> > discussion of > > > > > >> >? ? > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > > > themes. > > > > > I > > > > > >> > think > > > > > >> >? ? > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > > > "steps", > > > > > >> but > > > > > >> >? ? > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that > after > > > > that > > > > > >> try > > > > > >> > to rise > > > > > >> >? ? > from it to the seco > > > > > >> >? ? > >? nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young > age, > > > it > > > > > >> seems > > > > > >> > to me > > > > > >> >? ? > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > > > discussion > > > > > of > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> >? ? > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > > > preparation > > > > to > > > > > >> > thinking, > > > > > >> >? ? > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method > can > > > not > > > > > be > > > > > >> > studied > > > > > >> >? ? > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > > > Perhaps > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> > seems > > > > > >> >? ? > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are > not > > > > > >> familiar > > > > > >> > with > > > > > >> >? ? > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of > > > > > >> discussing > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> >? ? > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > > > continue > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > carry > > > > > >> >? ? > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of > the > > > > term > > > > > >> > activity. > > > > > >> >? ? > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for > translators > > > > from > > > > > >> > Russian (or > > > > > >> >? ? > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not > > > very > > > > > >> > informative. > > > > > >> >? ? > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden > completely > > > > > >> exhausted > > > > > >> > this > > > > > >> >? ? > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to > > > > discuss > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> >? ? > question: what is the justificati > > > > > >> >? ? > >? on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. > > > > Where, > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> > any > > > > > >> >? ? > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of > > activity, > > > > not > > > > > >> > just uses > > > > > >> >? ? > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in which > it > > > is > > > > > >> used > > > > > >> >? ? > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > > > >> activities) of > > > > > >> >? ? > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > > > >> functions?, > > > > > >> > ?speech > > > > > >> >? ? > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of the > > > > > >> > personality?- all > > > > > >> >? ? > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, > with > > > > > Spinoza > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> >? ? > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are > > > > > >> discussing > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> >? ? > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by > > > > > Vygotsky > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> >? ? > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > > > necessary > > > > > to > > > > > >> > try to > > > > > >> >? ? > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, > proceeding > > > > from > > > > > >> THE > > > > > >> > REAL > > > > > >> >? ? > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is > > impossible > > > > to > > > > > >> > understand > > > > > >> >? ? > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no > > > such > > > > > >> > theoretical > > > > > >> >? ? > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev > > > > > >> introduces a > > > > > >> >? ? > category of object-oriented a > > > > > >> >? ? > >? ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little > use > > > > for > > > > > >> > solving > > > > > >> >? ? > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never > said > > > > ?B?. > > > > > >> > Having > > > > > >> >? ? > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis > > of > > > > the > > > > > >> >? ? > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not > go > > > > > further > > > > > >> > failing > > > > > >> >? ? > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract > category.Once > > > > > again, > > > > > >> > from > > > > > >> >? ? > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > > > >> >? ? > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological > Theory > > > of > > > > > >> > Activity" we > > > > > >> >? ? > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > > > >> fundamentally > > > > > >> > new > > > > > >> >? ? > approaches to education, based on dialectical, > > revolutionary > > > > > >> method > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> >? ? > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary > to > > > > begin > > > > > >> not > > > > > >> > so > > > > > >> >? ? > much - to learn to listen to each other... > > > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > > > >> >? ? > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > > >> >? ? > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > > > >> >? ? > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > > activity > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> >? ? > communication > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. > My > > > > > point > > > > > >> is > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> >? ? > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s > analysis, > > > > and > > > > > >> > about its > > > > > >> >? ? > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the order > of > > > > the > > > > > >> > treatment > > > > > >> >? ? > in Capital. > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Martin > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > > ablunden@mira.net > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >? ? > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3 > . > > > htm > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > >? Of course the method of presentation must differ in > form > > > > > >> >? ? > >? from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate > the > > > > > >> >? ? > >? material in detail, to analyse its different forms of > > > > > >> >? ? > >? development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only > > > > > >> >? ? > >? after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > > > >> >? ? > >? adequately described. If this is done successfully, if > > > > > >> >? ? > >? the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as > > > > > >> >? ? > >? in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before > us a > > > > > >> >? ? > >? mere a priori construction. > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Andy > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > ------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > >> >? ? > > Andy Blunden > > > > > >> >? ? > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > >> >? ? > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > > > >> >? ? > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the > details > > > of > > > > > >> Marx?s > > > > > >> >? ? > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > > > Grundrisse. > > > > > The > > > > > >> > two have > > > > > >> >? ? > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the > order > > > of > > > > > >> > presentation > > > > > >> >? ? > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > Martin > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> >? ? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Nov 12 03:38:32 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:38:32 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgUmU6INCe0YLQsjogUmU6IDogT2JqZWN0IG9y?= =?utf-8?q?iented_activity_and_communication?= In-Reply-To: <1570713293.589277.1510437836252@mail.yahoo.com> References: <946739873.1395270.1506729245941.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <59afeacc-fd47-9b04-e223-68ed7f73716a@mira.net> <494a5bf0-0df2-966e-45d4-909bec0eb0e2@mira.net> <1508157096837.56798@iped.uio.no> <1508157779337.31524@iped.uio.no> <0e0bfd62-2331-2143-0bcf-e622f15b80c4@mira.net> <1120933875.1584374.1508166018196@mail.yahoo.com> <89ada441-db37-b749-ac6c-ad6af2ec5be5@mira.net> <1109005705.1020334.1508252425875@mail.yahoo.com> <652069959.1541117.1508291557019@mail.yahoo.com> <630D49CF-00CD-463E-A9B1-1E2924FCE197@uniandes.edu.co> <3dfdf446-6817-096d-182e-98ae5bd561bf@mira.net> <6B0A96B7-3ACE-43E8-8CFC-3AD05568269A@uniandes.edu.co> <919379338.1678471.1508585766999@mail.yahoo.com> <1508933013877.70037@iped.uio.no> <1311730113.6439834.1508973202950@mail.yahoo.com> <6e7d87e2-b3e7-5b41-1175-04c13dd1d78c@mira.net> <5EA1DF7F-AB22-4F5A-B150-6B9EB9FBA4E9@manchester.ac.uk> <1509839584045.96972@iped.uio.no> <2018721957.4521060.1509905858943@mail.yahoo.com> <1509955827703.47993@iped.uio.no> <1509961400413.22381@iped.uio.no> <625325354.7444882.1510092080294@mail.yahoo.com> <1570713293.589277.1510437836252@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the note, Sasha. Yes, it is always interesting to see the same familiar mountains from a totally unexpected angle. Sometimes the differences are simply due to the fact that we are facing different directions, sometimes due to the fact that we are making different descriptions, and sometimes that we really are seeing different facts. In your first part, you seem to be suggesting that there is a clear, qualitative break between science and religion on the question of free will. I think this is not even true in philosophy, which after all did not begin with Marxism. Aristotle believed that the past and present were fully determinate, and only the future was the domain of free will; the whole story of Buridan's ass was made up by the neo-Aristotelians to try to make fun of physicists like Buridan who believed that the future was determinate as well. We can see the old Aristotelian idea has been encoded in English grammar, which uses Finite tense to refer to past and present, but modality to refer to the future. Many languages (e.g. Arabic) do likewise. I guess I mostly just take science as a I find it: it is the form that human knowledge takes after religion, and so it necessarily has a lot of religious baggage, just as our art does. To tell you the truth, I think of science and art as just being the historical forms that human knowledge takes when religion becomes differentiated into thinking on the one hand and feeling on the other. It seems to me that demanding that science be completely free of naive religious beliefs is somewhat ahistorical, i.e. somewhat anti-scientific. In the second part, you demonstrate this admirably: you assert, for example, that all toothache is more or less the same. There isn't any way to prove this, but my dentist tells me that the amount of anaesthetic that patients demand is highly variable. You also seem to argue that the ability to deceive is evidence that words can cover opposite thoughts. I think what I said was that there is no way for the use of words to NOT share ideas, because we only stop using them when the idea we are trying to share has been shared in some form. Of course, the sharing of ideas has nothing to do with their truth value. In your third section, you are right--I had Leontiev's attack on Vygotsky's "Problem of the Environment" in mind; I thought Andy did an excellent analysis of this, and I will sign my name to everything he wrote on it. It is possible that ANL never published the article in his lifetime, but certainly he publically embraced Lysenkoism in a number of published articles and did nothing to retract them after Lysenko fell from grace. For example, in "The Present Tasks of Soviet Psychology" he writes: "The triumph of creative Soviet Darwinism, as expressed in the complete victory of the Michurinist tendency int he Soviet Union, also meant the foundation of a dialectical materialist theory of the development of living organisms.... The phylogenetic theory of Michurin and Lysenko has also been applied to psychology". Winn, R. (1961). Soviet Psychology, a Symposium, London: Vision. p. 34. ANL's later works, e.g. Problems of the Development of the Mind, do not use anything from modern genetics, so I assume he never changed his view. Certainly his rejection of the crisis in Problems of the Development of Mind doesn't suggest a very sound grasp of evolution, not to mention dialectics. I think that one of the parts of modern science that is closest to religion and that I believe in most firmly is simply accepting that we belong to a community and not a desert island, that none of us has to be a Renaissance man who understands it all, and that the views of my colleagues can be trusted even without direct verification. So I am happy to accept that you, Andy, and Hegel solved the problem of free will even without reading "Philosophy of Right" (particularly since I strongly suspect I would barely understand a word in ten). In return I get to spend my time on things like the semantics of English modality and the quotability of thoughts but not feelings which you, Andy and Hegel don't have much time for. I suppose this is a kind of faith, but it's not exactly religious. It's actually faith in the reality of the mountains, the keener eyesight of other mountaineers, and the good fellowship of our fellow scientists! David Kellogg On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 7:03 AM, Alexander Surmava < alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> wrote: > ??????? ????? ??????! > ???? ??????? ????????????? ?????????, ??? ?????? ? ?????? ??????? > ??????????. ??? ???, ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??????????? ? ?????? ? ???? ?? > ?????????????? ?????, ???? ????????????? ??????? ????????? ??????????????, > ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???????? ???????????. > ???, ?? ???????????, ??? ???????? ????? ????? ???? ???-?? ??????? ??? > ?????????, ?? ???????????? ??? ???????? ???????? ??? ???? ????. ? ????, > ???????? ??????????? ???????????? ????? ??????, ????????? ???? ????? ?????? > ?????? ????? ???????, ??? ?? ???????? ???????? ??????????, ????????? ?? > ??????? ??????????? ???? ? ????, ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????????? ????????? > ????????????? ???????? ???????? ? ?????????? ???????? ?????, ?? ???? > ??????????? ????????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ???? ???????????? > ???????????? ? ???????????? ???????????? ??????. ?????? ???????, > ?????????????? ?? ????????? ??????????? ?????????? ????. > ???????? ????? ????????? ???????????? ????? ????????????? ???????? ? ?? > ?????? ?????? ??????, ??? ? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ????? ????? > ?? ???????? ???????????????? ????????? ??????????? ??????? ? ?????? ?? > ???????? ????????? ???????????? ??????????????. ?????? ??? ?????????? ???? > ???????????? ????????????? ????????? ??? ???????? ???????, ?? ????? ?? ??? > ??????????, ? ?????? ??????? - ???????. > ???? ????????? ????? ?????????????? ??? ?????????? ? ??????????????, ? > ????? ???? ??????????????? ??????????? ? ???????????. > Dear David Kellogg! > Your remarks are extremely interesting, for they are always extremely > unexpected. While both of us seem to belong to the same academic circle, > our theoretical views are so opposite that it can not fail to impress the > imagination. > So, you say that "free will" can be something difficult for philosophy, > but at the same time it is an axiom for a number of sciences. From my, > perhaps old-fashioned Marxist point of view, what you said can only be > understood in such a way that you consider scientific those disciplines > that come from a naive religious belief in a miracle. Only a miracle can be > the principle of "explaining" the "freedom of will" attributed to man by > religion and idealism, that is, the ability to act in one way or another in > spite of the pressure of the whole aggregate of natural and historical > material causes. I do not know how you can call "science," a discipline > based on the postulate of the possibility of an abstract miracle. > Given such a serious discrepancy between our theoretical views, I will > specify, just in case, that in the mouth of a Marxist the denial of "free > will" does not at all mean fatalistic denial of the possibility of freedom > and does not mean at all the denial of elementary arbitrariness. The > parable of Buridan's ass is a theoretical difficulty for the dualist > Descartes, but not for dialectics, and therefore for the monist Spinoza. > If what is said here seems incomprehensible and paradoxical to you, I am > ready to give relevant explanations and comments. > ??? ???????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ?????? ? ????????, > ??????????? ???? ???? ????????????? ?????, ??, ???, ? ????? ? ???????? > ?????????. ??? ??????-?? ???????, ??? ???? ? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? > ?????????. ? ??? ???? ? ?? ?? ???????? ???? ????? ?????????? ????? > ??????????????? ?????. ?????? ?? ?? ????????? ?????????? ???????????, ??? > ???? ?? ? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ????, ????? ??????? ???? ????????? ?????. ?? > ?? ?????, ?????, ????? ??????? ? ? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????????, ?? ???? > ?????? ??????? ????????. ?? ?????????? ?? ?????, ?? ????, ????????????. > ???????, ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???????, ?? > ?????? ?????????? ?????? ????? ?? ??, ??? ?? ??????. ?? ??? ??? ??????? > ????? ?? ????????? ???????? ??? ???????, ?????????? ?? ????????? ???? ? > ????????? ???????? ??? ?????????? (????????-???????????????) ????????????. > As for the non-transmissibility of individual feelings and, on the > contrary, the ability of words to be the translators of thought, then, > alas, here again I have to object. For some reason it seems to me that the > toothache of all is more or less the same. But the same meanings of words > very often cover directly opposite thoughts. Let's say diplomats openly > formulate that the language for them and their colleagues is given in order > to hide their true thoughts. The same, I think, can be said about all other > forms of ideology, that is, forms of false consciousness. Do not deceive > not the word, but the deed, the activity. Therefore, if we want to find out > what our partner really thinks, we should first of all look at what he is > doing. But this already requires departing from the understanding of > thinking as crafty, convention-based speech to understanding thinking as > object-oriented activity. > ???????, ?????????, ? ??????? ?????? ?????????. ??????????, ???????????? > ?????????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???????? ????????? ?? ????? ? ?????? ???, ??? > ??? ? ??? ????????. ?? ?????, ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????????? > ???????? ???????, ?????????? ???? ?? ???????? ????????. > ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????????? ???????, ? ???????? ??????? ?? ?????? > ??????? ?????????? ?????????. ??? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ?????? ? ?????? > ??????? ?????? ????????????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???????????. ??? ???? > ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????????. ?? ????, ??? > ???????? ????? ????????, ?? ????????? ??????, ??? ?????-?? ???????????? > ?????? ?? ????????? ??? ?????????, ????, ???? ??? ?? ???????? ????-?? > ????????, ????? ?????????? ? ??????? ?? 1956 ????, ? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? > ????? ??????? ?? ? ????, ??? ??????????????, ????????? ?????????? > ??????????. > ?????? ????, ??? ??? ?? ???????? ?? ????? ????? ? ?????????????? ????????? > ????????? ? ??????? ? ??? ??????-?????????? ??????? ? ????????????? > ????????? ?? ????????? ???????? ? ??????? ??????????. ?? ? ??? ?? ????? ? > ????? ???????? ?????? ????????? ?? ????????? ?????????????, ? ?? ?? > ?????-?? ?????? ???????. > ? ?????, ? ?????????, ? ????????? ??????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??????????? > ????????????? ???????????????? ????????????? ???????????, ? ?? ?? ?????? ? > ?????. ? ? ????????? ?.?.???????? ??????????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ? > ?????????? ? ??? ????????, ? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ????????????? ?????? > ??????? ? ????? ? ?????????????? ??????? ?.?.???????????, ??????? ?? > ??????????? ?? ??????????? ??? ????? ?????. > ? ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ???????????? ??????? ??????? ?????????? > - ?miserable article?? > ???? ??? ???, ?? ????????????? ?? ? ???? ????? ?? ???????????? > ??????????????? ????????????? ? ???????????? ????????. > ????? ?????????? > ???? > Finally, the last one, about the report of David Bakhurst. Of course, the > repressive Stalinist regime could not but place the scars on the life and > fate of those who lived in its conditions. But I think that in any case, > examples of such terrible influence, mentioned by you are extremely > unfortunate. > Leontiev was never a fan of Lysenko, and Ilyenkov never considered Stalin > as an outstanding philosopher. Moreover, it would never have occurred to > him to put the imaginary theoretical merits of Stalin above his own. These > things are so obvious that it does not even make sense to discuss them. I > do not know what David Bakhurst dug out, but I'm absolutely sure that some > dubious quotes from Leontyev or Ilyenkov, even if they are not someone's > fake, could be related to the period before 1956, and so they can be as > little imputed they are guilty, like "hello", said hostage to the terrorist. > It is another matter that Leontyev treated Pavlov with his > stimulus-reactive teaching with an exaggerated reverence for the rest of > his life and warned Ilyenkov of public polemics with the theory of the > latter. But this he did to protect Ilyenkov from possible persecution, and > not from some low motives. > In general, both Leontief and Ilyenkov should be judged not by their > forced political circumstances by imprudent statements, but by their > thoughts and deeds. And in particular, AN Leontiev deserves the deepest > respect and admiration both as a theorist and as a person for his brilliant > article "The Teaching on the Environment in Pedagogical Works of LS > Vygotsky," which he consciously did not publish in his lifetime. > I was not mistaken? It was this article you contemptuously called "a > miserable article"? > If this is so, then we really stand on diametrically opposite theoretical > and moral positions. > All the best > Sasha > > ------------------------------ > *??:* David Kellogg > *????:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *??????????:* ?????, 8 ?????? 2017 13:49 > *????:* [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > I think that a conclusion can be perfectly absurd in philosophy, and yet > completely correct in science. For example, the idea of free will is a > problem in philosophy (partly because of the history of philosophy in > religion), but it is essentially a postulate for science (because whole > branches of science, including psychology, sociology and history, cease to > exist without it). > > So the conclusion which Sasha calls absurd--that words are material and > social and feelings are a void of that social, materiality--do seem > scientifically correct to me. That was what I was trying to convey when I > said that thoughts are quotable but feelings are not; that it is impossible > to know if Sasha and I have the same feeling when we both have a toothache, > but it is literally impossible NOT to know when and to what extent Sasha > and I have the same thought when we use words, because the very use of > words is precisely the process of coming to some kind of agreement about > the nature of their meanings. As Hamlet says, "This was sometime a paradox, > but now the time gives it proof." > > One of the plenaries in Quebec City that we haven't discussed yet was that > of David Bakhurst on Ilyenkov's first run-in with Soviet philosophy, "Punks > versus Zombies". One of the many important points that Bakhurst made was > that, as any materialist would expect, the kind of repression that Leontiev > and Ilyenkov lived under did not, seemingly, kill them, but left terrible > scars on their work (not so much Leontiev's miserable article on the > environment but his abject capitulation to Lysenko, and Ilyenkov's > statement that Stalin had done philosophical work far more important than > his own). The ending of Bakhurst's talk was, as he said, like that of a > "Train to Busan": just when you think that our hero has escaped, a hand > reaches out and drags him off...and the only fingerprints are those of the > hero himself. > > David Kellogg > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Alexander Surmava < > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Dear Colleagues. > > > > I must apologize for the long silence. > > Meanwhile, our discussion is becoming more and more interesting for me, > > pushing for new reflections and new plans. Well, or to return to the old > > plans, the implementation of which I have long postponed. > > I am referring to my plans to embark on a study with the aim to clarify > > the Marxist view of the concept of "ideality" - the central category of > > classical philosophy, starting at least from Plato. "The dialectic of > > ideality" was the last theoretical work of Ilyenkov. Meanwhile, there is > > enough reasons to believe that this topic, which was of the utmost > > importance for philosophy and psychology, was far from complete. > > Below, I will publish a rather large post, the logic of which brings our > > discussion to the discussion of the problem of ideality. > > In the meantime looking ahead I want to say that Bakhtin / Voloshinov, > who > > emerged in our conversation with his popular essay "Marxism and the > > Philosophy of Language" with his "brilliant" substitution of the category > > "ideality" with the category "ideology" is a gift for our future work on > > ideality, for in a concentrated form he demonstrates how a false > > understanding of ideality leads to a complete break with Marxism. > > > > Sasha > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *??:* Alfredo Jornet Gil > > *????:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > *??????????:* ???????????, 6 ?????? 2017 12:45 > > *????:* [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > As a clarification, that sounds clear to me, David, thanks! I wonder how > > does that sound to others, > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: 06 November 2017 10:37 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > I'll try, Alfredo. > > > > I think that Sasha and Haydi are arguing that if we accept language as > > sign, we risk treating it as a superstructure that has freed itself from > > its base, that is, the labor of the worker and the peasant, labor which > has > > the power to materially transform a material environment. This is a move > > they oppose, because there is the danger that a semiotic superstructure > > will supply itself a "different" base--that is, a base not in the laborer > > who materially transforms the material environment but rather in the > > thinker who ideologically transforms an ideal context and thus acts on > > himself or herself but leaves the worker and the peasant in the lurch. > > Both Sasha and Haydi consider Leontiev and activity as an important > > countermeasure to this semanticizing tendency in Vygotsky.This is an > > argument with a lot of history, and it is one that I reject. > > > > I don't simply reject it on behalf of the child, who has to master signs > > before she or he can master tools (and even when the child can master > > tools, viz. toy tools, the child must master them as signs--as > > meanings--and not as a means to transform the social environment. I also > > reject it on the part of the worker and the peasant, as did Brecht, as > did > > Vygotsky, and...as did Volosinov. For if Haydi is going to read the whole > > of Volosinov, he must indeed select aspects of Volosinov that he does not > > like, including Volosinov's very Marxist distinction between the way that > > the peasant experiences hunger and the way that the worker experiences > it: > > these are indeed different poles of the same experience, and one can go > > much closer to the 'we pole' than the other. (The reason why the Chinese > > famine of 1959-1961 was so devestating was precisely that it was > > experienced very differently in the cities than in the countryside.) > > > > The use of "pole" is not mine; it is that of Volosinov (p. 87). > Similarly, > > the use of "water into wine" is not mine; it is that of Vygotsky > > (Psychology of Art, p. 243). Vygotsky is rejecting the Bukharinist notion > > of Proletkult, that of the artist as a Christlike figure, multiplying > bread > > and fishes for the masses. For Vygotsky, this isn't much of a miracle at > > all, it is precisely what peasants and workers quite without art every > > single day of their working lives. If we want art to permeate life, we > > cannot do it by reducing art to the level of everyday experience: that is > > not art permeating life, but only the tired old nineteenth century slogan > > of life permeating art, repeated as Proletkult, as Soviet socialist > > realism, and consequently, as Marx would say, as farce. > > > > David Kellogg > > > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > > > > Thanks Haidy; I must confess it is difficult for me to follow; could > you > > > or anyone else help me understand? > > > > > > I take it that you are arguing to read Volosinov's attempt to a Marxist > > > approach by going back to (or without severing it from) Marx. And, > > reading > > > the thread of messages you attach, the conclusion that "the forms of > > verbal > > > communication ... are entirely determined by production relations and > the > > > sociopolitical order" (quoting from the PDF you attach). > > > > > > Also, I am curious about the way you end up connecting the 'voila > > > Voloshinov' with the crude reality of wealth distribution between 1% vs > > 99% > > > of world's population. Could you or anyone else help clarify? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > on behalf of ?Haydi Zulfei? ?? > > > Sent: 05 November 2017 19:17 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > > > Alfredo, > > > I'm by no means pretentious in saying that I have good reasons not to > get > > > engaged in any more discussion. > > > > > > If there are views and responses , I will just listen to them willfully > > > and with care and attention and gratitude. > > > > > > You are right but when you have already made your utmost efforts to > > > replace A BASE with ANOTHER. You try again , this time , to get support > > > from Voloshinov. In this you've been selective. Now you will read a > piece > > > which is not selective , that is , the selector has tried to see both > of > > > the two aspects and their proper positions . In selection , he has not > > > tried to hide the aspect he doesn't like to see. You're exempt from > such > > > condemnation. > > > > > > It makes a world of difference if you keep on sticking to the actual > > base. > > > The actual base does not sever ties with the 'over' one. It sees the > over > > > one raised in its bosom. When the base is replaced , the previous over > > ones > > > become the yardstick for measuring and such measuring leads to seeing > the > > > previous over ones not emanating from the beneath ones but as > generative > > of > > > their self. And this leads to seeing THE WEST GREECE as ANTIQUITY and > the > > > whole EAST as BARBARITY erasing even the discrepancy between slaves and > > > slave owners (old and new). > > > > > > When the captives rise in sword then , as hearts are not beating > anymore > > > but dead eyes in dignity! of judging , the sword becomes the verdict. > > > > > > Marx discusses the three functions of 'money' as medium of exchange , > as > > > measuring values and as realized price , that is , money itself not > just > > a > > > 'commodity' but the Almighty of cruelest acts every time every place. > > Here > > > verbage is disposed of articulation of Marx's mouth. All affects having > > > co-existed with intellect , now in the blessed soul of wrath , passion > , > > > sympathy and sense of victory predominate his whole existence! Now the > %1 > > > pours out disgust and hatred. Universe is testing us! Why the %99 > worship > > > evil! > > > Voila Voloshinov!! > > > > > > Best > > > Haydi > > > > > > > > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Sent: Sunday, 5 November 2017, 3:25:22 > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: : Object oriented activity and communication > > > > > > Hi all, what an interesting path this thread has followed! From Capital > > to > > > Shakespeare, and from object-orientedness to apertures and vowels, > > Brecht, > > > Stanislavsky... and, perhaps most surprisingly, from democratic > education > > > to privileged access. > > > > > > How have we shifted from talking about democratic education to talking > > > about privileged access (to immediate experience)? > > > > > > Here was Sasha's critique: > > > > > > "human development is not the ability of individuals to experience > > > (perejivat?) the meaning of words, but to be genuine subjects of > > > object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor." > > > > > > and that, > > > > > > "If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that > the > > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a > verbal > > > 'generalization' of the material that our senses deliver to us, then > any > > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us > the > > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own > > work, > > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look > > something > > > inferior." > > > > > > Now, I find it interesting that, in responding to Sasha's critique, we > > > ended up shifting from a concrete problem where 'privilege' had to do > > with > > > exclusive ownership of means of producing knowledgeability (and the > quest > > > for democratizing these means), to the problem of expressing out in > words > > > supposedly unsharable contents of inner or 'immediate' experience. Is > the > > > latter problem a "real need" in the sense Sasha had characterised the > > issue > > > of democratic education? > > > > > > My first inclination is to side with Greg, who in a previous post > pointed > > > out that the problem of privileged access (of immediate experience) > seems > > > quite derivative or secondary, or 'weird' as Greg poses it, rather than > > > some essential problem of existence. Of course 'expressing oneself' is > a > > > quite real problem that needs to be solved everyday. And I am quite > fond > > of > > > Vygotsky's and Volosinov's idea that in expressing we are not simply > > > externalising something that had been formed internally but rather > > > thinking develops in communicating and joint participation in practical > > > activity. But it is this idea of immediate (individual, idiolect) > > > experience and some opposite (cultural? social? dialect) version of it > > that > > > makes me suspicious. > > > > > > Volosinov's distinction between "I experience" and "we experience" has > > > been mobilised in the thread: > > > > > > "not the pure "I experience" of sensation but the way that "I > experience" > > > goes out to "we experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and > > > alchemically transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's > not > > > primordially an "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an > > > individuation of a social emotion" (D.K to Greg). > > > > > > I may be wrong or miss some of the background, but to me, this type of > > > argument is the kind that lends itself to critique by those like Sasha, > > who > > > argue against a semiotic approach. Specially reading the comment on > > > converting water in wine, no wonder there are concerns on signs > becoming > > > magic arbitrary forces. > > > > > > I do agree with James that when Volosinov speaks about inner sign, it > > > "resembles" privileged access. In fact, Volosinov goes on to argue that > > the > > > most important problem in the philosophy of language is the solution of > > the > > > relation between inner and outer signs... But Volosinov (1973) proposes > > > resolving the dichotomy by overcoming it, for 'only on the grounds of a > > > materialistic monism can a dialectical resolution ... be achieved" (p. > > 40). > > > If for Vygotsky it was thinking and speech, for Volosinov it is psyche > > and > > > ideology, which he argues, 'dialectically interpenetrate in the unitary > > and > > > objective process of social intercourse' (p. 41). The point is then > that > > > social intercourse is primary over any inner 'immediate' experience. > > > > > > I do not think then that Volosinov is making the case that there is an > > > I-experience that in going out THEN becomes social, magic happens. For > it > > > is the objective process of social intercourse that is primary. > Volosinov > > > in fact speaks about two ways of ideologizing experience, not of two > > poles > > > constituting it. The immediacy then is social through and through: > > > > > > "from the very start experience is set toward fully actualised outward > > > expression and, from the very start, tends in that direction" (p. 90) > > > > > > and > > > > > > "Outside objectification, outside embodiment in some particular > material > > > (the material of gesture, inner word, outcry), consciousness is a > > fiction. > > > It is an improper ideological construct created by way of abstraction > > from > > > the concrete facts of social expression" (p. 90). > > > > > > But if, outside embodiment in material social intercourse, > consciousness > > > is a fiction, is not the problem of privileged access in the way it's > > been > > > posed here a fiction too? > > > > > > In The German Ideology, Marx & Engels write, 'As individuals express > > their > > > life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their > > > production'. I wonder whether and how this identity between > 'expressing', > > > 'producing', and 'being' could be productive to a more united CHAT > > > community. > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > > Sent: 01 November 2017 02:22 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > oriented > > > activity and communication > > > > > > Voloshinov begins his discussion on pp. 88-89 of Marxism and the > > Philosophy > > > of Language with the simple idea that the "I experience" of hunger is > one > > > end of a pole, the end we share with animals, one which cannot be > > > communicated and ultimately leads to self-extinction, either when food > is > > > provided or the experiencer dies of inanition. As far as we know, this > > > experience is undifferentiated: it is felt but not apperceived (that > is, > > > the feeling of feeling it is not felt; it is "live" but not "life o'er > > > lived", "zhivanie" but not "perezhivanie"). At the other end of the > pole > > > is the "we experience" which is necessarily differentiated because it > is > > > over-lived differently by people of different classes--the vagabond > > sullen > > > and envious in hunger, the mystic fasting sententiously unto death, the > > > peasant resigned and blaming the weather, and finally the proletarians > > who > > > reject hunger altogether precisely because they have the obscene sight > > of a > > > satiated boss and family before them and starving children at their > side. > > > (Voloshinov also says that there are human sexual experiences at both > > > poles, but he refers us to pp. 135-136 of his book on Freudianism, and > my > > > English edition doesn't have a p. 135.) > > > > > > Brecht discusses how to convey this operatically (because of course > > Brecht > > > was a big fan of Chinese opera, and met the diva Mei Lanfang in Moscow, > > > where Eisenstein was putting his work on film in the attached). He > > wonders > > > why the Biblical phrase "pluck out the eye that offends thee" is so > much > > > more "gestic" and horrifying the way that it is translated into German > by > > > Martin Luther ("If thine eye offend thee...pluck it OUT!"). I think > this > > is > > > the "indexicality" that Greg is really interested in: not the pure "I > > > experience" of sensation but the way that "I experience" goes out to > "we > > > experience" and then returns to an "I experience" and alchemically > > > transforms it into something new, wine from water. It's not > primordially > > an > > > "I experience" but an "I experience" which is now an individuation of > a > > > social emotion. Brecht describes how workers parading through Berlin on > > > Christmas eve are chanting "Wir haben HUNG-ER!" and some of them > actually > > > supplement this with "Helft euch sel-ber, wahlt Thalmann!" ("Help > > > yourselves--vote Thalmann", the then candidate of the German Communist > > > Party). > > > > > > Incredibly, I just discovered that this is actually a children's song: > > > > > > We have hunger, hunger, hunger > > > Have hunger, hunger hunger > > > Have hunger, hunger hunger > > > Have thirst. > > > > > > If we don't get something, get, get, get > > > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > > > We'll eat flies, flies, flies > > > >From the wall. > > > > > > If they don't taste good, taste, taste > > > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > > > We'll eat snails, snails, snails, > > > >From the forest. > > > > > > If they don't last, last, last > > > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > > > We'll eat corpses, corpses, corpses > > > >From the grave. > > > > > > If they don't suffice, suffice, suffice > > > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > > > We'll eat snakes, snakes, snakes > > > >From the forest. > > > > > > (Notice that the tendency of German and French to make pains and lacks > > into > > > virtual entities that you can possess and be dispossessed of makes the > > song > > > much more gestic and indexical, because it allows parallelism of > "hunger" > > > with "flies", "snails", "corpses" and "snakes".. Note also that it > would > > be > > > far more gestic to put the verse about corpses at the end...) > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > (In this clip, Eisenstein films Mei Lanfang showing us the great > heroine > > > Mui Guiying who challenges an enemy general to battle and falls in love > > > with him mid-struggle. Notice how much you can understand > "gestically"..) > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nlf5LW_nrQ > > > > > > dk > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ?And funny that, in addition to stumbling across David's review of > > > > Volosinov that I just posted, I also just happened to have a tab open > > to > > > > this conversation between David and me in August of 2009: > > > > > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_08.dir/msg00054.html > > > > > > > > History repeats itself. All the more the less you remember (but are > > > > archived). > > > > > > > > Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there is no such > think > > as > > > > "privileged access", I'm simply suggesting that it may be a > > > > cultural-historically peculiar phenomena and thus one worth being > > careful > > > > about while also asking tough questions about it. I think the most > > > > important question remains "what is it that we are gaining privileged > > > > access to?" (and to jump ahead of myself, in the end, I think that > this > > > is > > > > a Schroedinger's cat moment where access to the thing is, in part, > the > > > > constitution of the thing being accessed). > > > > > > > > -greg? > > > > p.s. has anyone heard anything about Tony Whitson lately? I just > > realized > > > > how much I miss his snide and biting comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:09 PM, James Ma > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I > saw > > > > > Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link > > > > between > > > > > his inner sign and the notion of privileged access. > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > 2017?10?31? ??9:50?"James Ma" ??? > > > > > > > > > > I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged > > > access > > > > - > > > > > both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people. > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of > > one > > > of > > > > > > Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it > > happens > > > > to > > > > > be > > > > > > the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger): > > > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192. > > > > 2009.00210.x/full > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism > > > implied > > > > by > > > > > > > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this > > > capacity > > > > > > > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these > > are > > > > > WEIRD > > > > > > > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in > > some > > > > > > cultural > > > > > > > contexts they are seen to be rude!). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions: > > > > > > > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to? > > > > > > > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling > that > > is > > > > > > > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear? > > > > > > > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm > > thinking > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings > by > > > > > seeing > > > > > > > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of > > practical > > > > > > > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of > > > > > > Volosinov's > > > > > > > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is > something > > > > > > different > > > > > > > when shared by thousands of others). > > > > > > > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and > > not?)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, > > but > > > > > seems > > > > > > > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the > > vein > > > > of > > > > > > > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of > > > > subject/object, > > > > > > > inside/outside, individual/society, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope you are well wherever you may be > > > > > > > and may my well-being be your well-being... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg < > > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child > feels > > > is > > > > > his > > > > > > >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is > > communicated > > > > is > > > > > a > > > > > > >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable > > thought > > > > > "I'm > > > > > > >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or > even > > > > > > "Grandpa > > > > > > >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself". I think > that > > > when > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation > of > > > > > seeing > > > > > > >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some > > > > > concrete > > > > > > >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic > > > > > address. > > > > > > So > > > > > > >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not > > confounded. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole > > > flock > > > > > > takes > > > > > > >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than > > > "communication". > > > > > > What > > > > > > >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose > is > > > > afraid > > > > > > of > > > > > > >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The > other > > > > geese > > > > > > are > > > > > > >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; > > they > > > > are > > > > > > >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of > the > > > > pepper > > > > > > on > > > > > > >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your > > > cold. > > > > > > There > > > > > > >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream > > in > > > a > > > > > > >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on > an > > > > > > airplane > > > > > > >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling > > > > > > >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated > > was > > > > the > > > > > > >> fact > > > > > > >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. > > > Adolfo > > > > > > >> Garcia > > > > > > >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you > > can > > > > say > > > > > > "My > > > > > > >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought > that > > it > > > > was > > > > > > >> time > > > > > > >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it > was > > > time > > > > > for > > > > > > >> breakfast". Mental processes are one thing, and material > > > processes > > > > > are > > > > > > >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages > > > > reflect > > > > > > >> this > > > > > > >> knowledge. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> https://vimeo.com/111374335 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/ > details > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett > > > thinks > > > > > > >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has > > > understood > > > > > > >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are > > > actually > > > > > > >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams < > > > > > > >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > David > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ?feel > > their > > > > > pain? > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > >> > wince even before I hear him cry? even more so, my grandson > > > seems > > > > to > > > > > > >> feel > > > > > > >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they > > poke > > > > > their > > > > > > >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to > > have > > > > any > > > > > > >> words > > > > > > >> > for ?fear?? when you see someone?s face twist in such and > > such a > > > > > way, > > > > > > >> you > > > > > > >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the > > expression > > > > > > straight > > > > > > >> > away, don?t you? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without > words. > > As > > > > > Alan > > > > > > >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed > > to > > > a > > > > > cow > > > > > > in > > > > > > >> > the field and said ?I know what they are but not what they > are > > > > > > called?) > > > > > > >> > ?Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother?. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Am I missing your point? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Julian > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on > > > behalf > > > > of > > > > > > >> David > > > > > > >> > Kellogg" > > > > > >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in > the > > > > brain > > > > > > >> > differently > > > > > > >> > than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to > > MRI > > > > > scans > > > > > > >> or > > > > > > >> > computerized tomography. In fact these can and do > > distinguish > > > > > > >> between > > > > > > >> > verbs > > > > > > >> > of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what > Vygotsky > > > did > > > > > > have > > > > > > >> > access > > > > > > >> > to is the grammar of reported speech. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the > > > > words > > > > > of > > > > > > >> > another > > > > > > >> > person. I can say, for example: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with > > Marxism". > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > I can also quote the thoughts of another person. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with > > Marxism." > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > I can do this even when there are no actual words, just > as > > I > > > > can > > > > > > >> read > > > > > > >> > Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to > quote > > > > the > > > > > > >> > actions or > > > > > > >> > the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, > > for > > > > > > >> example: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > "Sasha stood "Up"" > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > "Sasha felt 'Cold'". > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that > Sasha > > > > > > thought a > > > > > > >> > word > > > > > > >> > meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is > > > > cold." > > > > > > >> This > > > > > > >> > is > > > > > > >> > originally a line from the revolutionary opera > > "Shajiabang", > > > > > > about a > > > > > > >> > woman > > > > > > >> > who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, > the > > > > > > children > > > > > > >> are > > > > > > >> > acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese > > > > officer; > > > > > > >> they > > > > > > >> > accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says > that > > > > all > > > > > > >> people > > > > > > >> > who > > > > > > >> > come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they > > go, > > > > > > their > > > > > > >> > tea is > > > > > > >> > cold, and she throws it out (6:13). > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the > > toothache > > > > of > > > > > > >> another > > > > > > >> > person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and > > > > words. > > > > > > >> > Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do > it > > > > > > >> > "immediately", > > > > > > >> > because thoughts and words have already made the > > dialectical > > > > > > >> leap--the > > > > > > >> > leap > > > > > > >> > from idiolect into a sharable dialect. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > > > ablunden@mira.net> > > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some > > people > > > > > > >> > > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to > > be > > > > > > >> > > the key category. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is > > activity > > > > > > >> > > in the case where production and consumption and > socially > > > > > > >> > > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an > > > > > > >> > > object of consumption should be included within the > basic > > > > > > >> > > category of Activity Theory, even if there are > important > > > > > > >> > > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to > > > > > > >> > > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or > supervision > > > of > > > > > > >> > > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use > > > > > > >> > > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour" > > > > > > >> > > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly > against > > > > > > >> > > this move. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa > > > does > > > > > > >> > > reflect certain tensions within the tradition. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > Andy > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org > /ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and% > > > > > > >> > > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > ------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > >> > > Andy Blunden > > > > > > >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > > >> > > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - > for > > > > > > myself I > > > > > > >> > have > > > > > > >> > > always found that the work of generalising (in > Vygotsky's > > > > > sense) > > > > > > >> is a > > > > > > >> > > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > >> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@ > > > > > > >> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava > > > > > > >> > > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13 > > > > > > >> > > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, > > Activity; > > > > > Mike > > > > > > >> > Cole; > > > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > > > oriented > > > > > > >> > activity > > > > > > >> > > and communication > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Dear Alfredo, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You > > definitely > > > > > > >> noticed > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > >> > > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and > > > developed > > > > > > >> > technologies, > > > > > > >> > > the class antagonism between exploited people and their > > > > > > >> exploiters, > > > > > > >> > between > > > > > > >> > > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the > > > > opposite > > > > > > >> > between > > > > > > >> > > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself > has > > > > > always > > > > > > >> been > > > > > > >> > a > > > > > > >> > > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a > > > > cosmopolitan > > > > > > >> class. > > > > > > >> > > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them > to > > > > > fight > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > >> > to kill > > > > > > >> > > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to > > > > > > cooperate > > > > > > >> > with > > > > > > >> > > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to > > > receive > > > > > > >> > dividends from > > > > > > >> > > their enterprises located on the territory of their > > > "enemy." > > > > > > Today > > > > > > >> > Putin's > > > > > > >> > > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" > take > > > > their > > > > > > >> > capitals to > > > > > > >> > > this West, buy property there, send their children to > > study > > > > > > there > > > > > > >> > and go > > > > > > >> > > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. > > > > > > Poroshenko > > > > > > >> - > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > >> > > president of the country that was subje > > > > > > >> > > > cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, > owns > > > > > > chocolate > > > > > > >> > > factories located on the territory of this country. > > > > > > >> > > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United > > > > States, > > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > policy > > > > > > >> > > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting > against > > > > each > > > > > > >> other > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > >> > > working people of different ethnic groups and > > confessions, > > > > on > > > > > > >> their > > > > > > >> > > juxtaposition of each other as superior and > second-class > > > > > > >> creatures. > > > > > > >> > > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity > > incited > > > > by > > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > ruling > > > > > > >> > > class towards working people of a different skin color, > > > > > working > > > > > > >> > people > > > > > > >> > > speaking a different language and praying to other > gods, > > > > > public > > > > > > >> > > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas > > > > constructed > > > > > > >> > allegedly on > > > > > > >> > > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred > > years > > > > > ago, > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> > > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, > > the > > > > > same > > > > > > >> task > > > > > > >> > is > > > > > > >> > > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to > > > > > so-called > > > > > > >> > "cultural" > > > > > > >> > > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to > > > > biological > > > > > > >> > differences > > > > > > >> > > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new, > > > > > > >> > molecular-genetic > > > > > > >> > > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, > > but > > > > > also > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > >> > > "psychology of culture". > > > > > > >> > > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only > > in > > > > > words > > > > > > >> but > > > > > > >> > also > > > > > > >> > > in deeds, if we can understand that human development > is > > > not > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > ability of > > > > > > >> > > individuals to experience (perejivat?) the meaning of > > > words, > > > > > but > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > >> > be > > > > > > >> > > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the > > subjects > > > > of > > > > > > >> labor. > > > > > > >> > > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which > > > > > believed > > > > > > >> > that the > > > > > > >> > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that > thinking > > is > > > > > > just a > > > > > > >> > verbal > > > > > > >> > > "generalization" of the material that our senses > deliver > > to > > > > > us, > > > > > > >> then > > > > > > >> > any > > > > > > >> > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, > will > > > > seem > > > > > > to > > > > > > >> us > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > >> > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant > > > doing > > > > > his > > > > > > >> own > > > > > > >> > work, > > > > > > >> > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, > > will > > > > > look > > > > > > >> > something > > > > > > >> > > inferior. > > > > > > >> > > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of > > Vygotsky's > > > > > > >> theory, > > > > > > >> > open > > > > > > >> > > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key > paragraph. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not > > only a > > > > > > >> > transition > > > > > > >> > > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter > that > > > is > > > > > > >> capable > > > > > > >> > of > > > > > > >> > > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. > > This > > > > > > >> implies > > > > > > >> > that > > > > > > >> > > reality is reflected in consciousness in a > qualitatively > > > > > > different > > > > > > >> > way in > > > > > > >> > > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This > > > qualitative > > > > > > >> > difference is > > > > > > >> > > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of > > > reality. > > > > > > >> > Therefore, > > > > > > >> > > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in > > the > > > > > true > > > > > > >> > sense of > > > > > > >> > > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an > > > > inseparable > > > > > > >> part > > > > > > >> > of the > > > > > > >> > > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but > to > > > > the > > > > > > >> domain > > > > > > >> > of > > > > > > >> > > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an > > empty > > > > > > sound. > > > > > > >> A > > > > > > >> > word > > > > > > >> > > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of > > speech. > > > > One > > > > > > >> > cannot say > > > > > > >> > > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of > > the > > > > > word > > > > > > >> > taken > > > > > > >> > > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It > > is > > > > > both > > > > > > at > > > > > > >> > one and > > > > > > >> > > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi > > > > > > >> > > > nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be > > that > > > > of > > > > > > >> > semantic > > > > > > >> > > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the > > > > > meaningful > > > > > > >> > aspect of > > > > > > >> > > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal > meaning. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will > > > produce > > > > > > >> answers > > > > > > >> > to > > > > > > >> > > our questions concerning the relationship between > > thinking > > > > and > > > > > > >> speech > > > > > > >> > > because this relationship is already contained in the > > unit > > > > of > > > > > > >> > analysis. In > > > > > > >> > > studying the function, structure, and development of > this > > > > > unit, > > > > > > we > > > > > > >> > will > > > > > > >> > > come to understand a great deal that is of direct > > relevance > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > problem > > > > > > >> > > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the > > nature > > > > of > > > > > > >> verbal > > > > > > >> > > thinking." > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has > not > > > the > > > > > > >> > slightest > > > > > > >> > > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive > > > > attempt > > > > > > to > > > > > > >> > combine > > > > > > >> > > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with > > the > > > > > > school > > > > > > >> > textbook > > > > > > >> > > of formal logic. > > > > > > >> > > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs > more > > > > > > detailed > > > > > > >> > > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this > > > analysis > > > > > in > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> > very > > > > > > >> > > near future. In the meantime, I only note that > Vygotsky's > > > > > > >> assertion > > > > > > >> > that > > > > > > >> > > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a > > maximally > > > > > > >> aphoristic > > > > > > >> > > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for > the > > > > > > >> > materialists, the > > > > > > >> > > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is > > the > > > > > > >> > instrument of > > > > > > >> > > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of > > > > > > generalization > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > >> > not a > > > > > > >> > > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means > of > > > > > > >> > generalizing the > > > > > > >> > > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a > means > > of > > > > > > >> > analyzing all > > > > > > >> > > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the > > > > optics > > > > > > of > > > > > > >> > > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition > of > > > > > > >> ideality.) > > > > > > >> > > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the > results > > > of > > > > > > >> Luria's > > > > > > >> > trip > > > > > > >> > > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The > Uzbek > > > > > > >> illiterate > > > > > > >> > > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own > labo > > > > > > >> > > > r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe > > and > > > > > > melon > > > > > > >> are > > > > > > >> > > connected, and therefore refusing to produce > meaningless > > > > > formal > > > > > > >> > logical > > > > > > >> > > operations with words denoting these things, is > declared > > a > > > > > > >> primitive > > > > > > >> > > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school > crap > > > who > > > > > > knows > > > > > > >> > how to > > > > > > >> > > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar > with > > > > the > > > > > > >> melon > > > > > > >> > only > > > > > > >> > > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is > > declared > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > bearer of > > > > > > >> > > scientific consciousness. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and > teachers, > > > > come > > > > > > to > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> > > value of instruments of labor, not only for the > > > distribution > > > > > of > > > > > > >> > material > > > > > > >> > > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual > > > > wealth, > > > > > > for > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > >> > > distribution of the ability to think, for the > > distribution > > > > of > > > > > > >> > culture. Only > > > > > > >> > > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of > > > > culture > > > > > as > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> > > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity > > > > > > accumulated > > > > > > >> by > > > > > > >> > > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of > > such > > > > > based > > > > > > >> on > > > > > > >> > idea of > > > > > > >> > > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will > be > > > > able > > > > > to > > > > > > >> get > > > > > > >> > out of > > > > > > >> > > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic > > > > arbitrariness. > > > > > > >> > > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who > seriously > > > > set > > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > task of > > > > > > >> > > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be > > > > considered > > > > > > that > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > >> > > first real step in this direction was made by his > friend > > > and > > > > > > >> student > > > > > > >> > AN > > > > > > >> > > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission. > > > > > > >> > > > Sasha > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > >> > >; > > > > > > >> > > Mike Cole ; ivan-dgf < > > > > ivan-dgf@migmail.ru > > > > > >; > > > > > > >> > Martin > > > > > > >> > > John Packer ; ?Haydi > ?Zulfei?? > > < > > > > > > >> > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava < > > > > > > >> > > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > > > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ?????, 25 ??????? 2017 15:03 > > > > > > >> > > > ????: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > oriented > > > > > > >> activity > > > > > > >> > and > > > > > > >> > > communication > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P > > > > > > >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom: > > > > > > >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988 > > > > > > >> > > Dear Sasha, all, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health > > > > issues > > > > > > at > > > > > > >> > home > > > > > > >> > > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have > > limited > > > > > > >> > participation > > > > > > >> > > anywhere else than home life. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds > like > > a > > > > > > >> concrete > > > > > > >> > aspect > > > > > > >> > > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the > beginning > > of > > > > > this > > > > > > >> > > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical > > (real) > > > > > > >> relevance > > > > > > >> > to us > > > > > > >> > > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is > > this > > > > > > >> 'real,' > > > > > > >> > and is > > > > > > >> > > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am > > > > > addressing > > > > > > >> any > > > > > > >> > and > > > > > > >> > > everyone) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Alfredo > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > From: Alexander Surmava > > > > > > > >> > > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36 > > > > > > >> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; > > Alfredo > > > > > > Jornet > > > > > > >> > Gil; > > > > > > >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ?Haydi ?Zulfei?? > > > > > > >> > > > Subject: ???: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object > > > > oriented > > > > > > >> > activity > > > > > > >> > > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're > going > > > to > > > > > > >> discuss > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > >> > > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing > his > > > > most > > > > > > >> > mature work. > > > > > > >> > > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's > monograph > > > > > > >> "Dialectics > > > > > > >> > of the > > > > > > >> > > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am > > aware > > > > > that > > > > > > >> > there is a > > > > > > >> > > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist > was > > > > > > >> adequately > > > > > > >> > > presented in Gr?ndrisse, whereas the humanistic core of > > > > Marx's > > > > > > >> > theory was > > > > > > >> > > allegedly lost in ?Das Kapital?. Accordingly, Marxism > is > > > > > better > > > > > > to > > > > > > >> > study > > > > > > >> > > with the help of Gr?ndrisse, and not with the help of > > ?Das > > > > > > >> Kapital?. > > > > > > >> > Along > > > > > > >> > > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that > > the > > > > > > >> > discussion of > > > > > > >> > > this topic would take us too far from our psychological > > > > > themes. > > > > > > I > > > > > > >> > think > > > > > > >> > > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of > > > > > "steps", > > > > > > >> but > > > > > > >> > > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that > > after > > > > > that > > > > > > >> try > > > > > > >> > to rise > > > > > > >> > > from it to the seco > > > > > > >> > > > nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young > > age, > > > > it > > > > > > >> seems > > > > > > >> > to me > > > > > > >> > > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the > > > > discussion > > > > > > of > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> > > method to the discussion of the subject, from the > > > > preparation > > > > > to > > > > > > >> > thinking, > > > > > > >> > > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method > > can > > > > not > > > > > > be > > > > > > >> > studied > > > > > > >> > > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. > > > > > Perhaps > > > > > > >> this > > > > > > >> > seems > > > > > > >> > > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are > > not > > > > > > >> familiar > > > > > > >> > with > > > > > > >> > > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead > of > > > > > > >> discussing > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > >> > > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we > > > > > continue > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > >> > carry > > > > > > >> > > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of > > the > > > > > term > > > > > > >> > activity. > > > > > > >> > > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for > > translators > > > > > from > > > > > > >> > Russian (or > > > > > > >> > > German) language to English, but theoretically it is > not > > > > very > > > > > > >> > informative. > > > > > > >> > > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden > > completely > > > > > > >> exhausted > > > > > > >> > this > > > > > > >> > > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be > to > > > > > discuss > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> > > question: what is the justificati > > > > > > >> > > > on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity > theory. > > > > > Where, > > > > > > >> in > > > > > > >> > any > > > > > > >> > > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of > > > activity, > > > > > not > > > > > > >> > just uses > > > > > > >> > > the term ?activity? in the theoretical contexts in > which > > it > > > > is > > > > > > >> used > > > > > > >> > > habitually by idealistic psychology. ?The activity (or > > > > > > >> activities) of > > > > > > >> > > consciousness?, ?the activity (or activities) of mental > > > > > > >> functions?, > > > > > > >> > ?speech > > > > > > >> > > activity (or activities)?, the concrete activities of > the > > > > > > >> > personality?- all > > > > > > >> > > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, > > with > > > > > > Spinoza > > > > > > >> > and > > > > > > >> > > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we > are > > > > > > >> discussing > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > >> > > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity > by > > > > > > Vygotsky > > > > > > >> > and > > > > > > >> > > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is > > > > necessary > > > > > > to > > > > > > >> > try to > > > > > > >> > > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, > > proceeding > > > > > from > > > > > > >> THE > > > > > > >> > REAL > > > > > > >> > > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is > > > impossible > > > > > to > > > > > > >> > understand > > > > > > >> > > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was > no > > > > such > > > > > > >> > theoretical > > > > > > >> > > category in his theoretical system of views. AN > Leontiev > > > > > > >> introduces a > > > > > > >> > > category of object-oriented a > > > > > > >> > > > ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little > > use > > > > > for > > > > > > >> > solving > > > > > > >> > > practical problems too, for saying ?A?, Leontyev never > > said > > > > > ?B?. > > > > > > >> > Having > > > > > > >> > > proposed the principle of activity as the universal > basis > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not > > go > > > > > > further > > > > > > >> > failing > > > > > > >> > > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract > > category.Once > > > > > > again, > > > > > > >> > from > > > > > > >> > > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his > > > > > > >> "?ultural-?istorical > > > > > > >> > > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological > > Theory > > > > of > > > > > > >> > Activity" we > > > > > > >> > > all have to become community of researchers developing > > > > > > >> fundamentally > > > > > > >> > new > > > > > > >> > > approaches to education, based on dialectical, > > > revolutionary > > > > > > >> method > > > > > > >> > of > > > > > > >> > > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary > > to > > > > > begin > > > > > > >> not > > > > > > >> > so > > > > > > >> > > much - to learn to listen to each other... > > > > :-)Sincerely,Sasha > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > ??: Martin John Packer > > > > > > >> > > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > > > >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > >> > > > ??????????: ???????, 20 ??????? 2017 3:08 > > > > > > >> > > > ????: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Re: ???: Re: Object oriented > > > > > activity > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > >> > > communication > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this > difference. > > My > > > > > > point > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > >> > that > > > > > > >> > > we have begin to talk about ?the start? of Marx?s > > analysis, > > > > > and > > > > > > >> > about its > > > > > > >> > > ?stages,? but these should not be equated with the > order > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > treatment > > > > > > >> > > in Capital. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden < > > > > > ablunden@mira.net > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > nden@mira.net>> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > https://www.marxists.org/archi > ve/marx/works/1867-c1/p3 > > . > > > > htm > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Of course the method of presentation must differ in > > form > > > > > > >> > > > from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate > > the > > > > > > >> > > > material in detail, to analyse its different forms > of > > > > > > >> > > > development, to trace out their inner connexion. > Only > > > > > > >> > > > after this work is done, can the actual movement be > > > > > > >> > > > adequately described. If this is done successfully, > if > > > > > > >> > > > the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected > as > > > > > > >> > > > in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before > > us a > > > > > > >> > > > mere a priori construction. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Andy > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > >> > > > Andy Blunden > > > > > > >> > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > > >> > > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > Seems to me that if we?re going to talk about the > > details > > > > of > > > > > > >> Marx?s > > > > > > >> > > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the > > > > Grundrisse. > > > > > > The > > > > > > >> > two have > > > > > > >> > > virtually opposite organizations; it?s clear that the > > order > > > > of > > > > > > >> > presentation > > > > > > >> > > in Capital was not the order of analysis. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Martin > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sun Nov 12 14:11:16 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:11:16 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie and language Message-ID: Vygotsky described the central role played by language in an individual becoming aware of, and making meaning from, "lived experience." He, therefore, used the concept of word meaning as the foundation for his investigation of perezhivanie.(Mahn & John-Steiner, THE GIFT OF CONFIDENCE: A VYGOTSKIAN VIEW OF EMOTIONS) I have met several theses, having perezhivanie in their abstract, most of them related with second language learning, not by coincidence I think. One of these is about MAKING MEANING OF CHINESE INTERNATIONAL GRADUATE STUDENTS? EXPERIENCES IN THE JOURNEY OF LEARNING ENGLISH IN THE UNITED STATES And together with the above, I think once more that to study perezhivanie can be fruitful especially with "best language workers", best writers, best poets especially focusing on great turning points like war, revolution, as that of Glaeser's *Jahrgang 1902.* From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sun Nov 12 14:12:06 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:12:06 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie and language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glaeser's *Jahrgang 1902 is autobiographical.* On 13 November 2017 at 00:11, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > Vygotsky described the central role played by language in an individual > becoming aware > of, and making meaning from, "lived experience." He, therefore, used the > concept of > word meaning as the foundation for his investigation of perezhivanie.(Mahn > & John-Steiner, THE GIFT OF CONFIDENCE: A VYGOTSKIAN VIEW OF EMOTIONS) > > > I have met several theses, having perezhivanie in their abstract, most of > them related with second language learning, not by coincidence I think. One > of these is about MAKING MEANING OF CHINESE INTERNATIONAL GRADUATE STUDENTS? > EXPERIENCES IN THE JOURNEY OF LEARNING ENGLISH IN THE UNITED STATES > > And together with the above, I think once more that to study perezhivanie > can be fruitful especially with "best language workers", best writers, best > poets especially focusing on great turning points like war, revolution, as > that of Glaeser's *Jahrgang 1902.* > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Nov 13 07:41:03 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:41:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Lecturer (aka Assistant Professor) in Developmental Psychology Position: University of Auckland, New Zealand In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Annette Henderson Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 5:56 PM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Lecturer (aka Assistant Professor) in Developmental Psychology Position: University of Auckland, New Zealand To: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org Dear Colleagues, The School of Psychology, University of Auckland, New Zealand is seeking applications for a Lecturer position in Developmental Psychology! This position opening can be considered similar to tenure track Assistant Professor openings in North American universities. Please see link below for further information. Lecturer in Developmental Psychology Feel free to contact me with any questions you may have about the School, University and/or living in New Zealand. Kind regards, Annette ********************************************************************** Annette M. E. Henderson, PhD Senior Lecturer and Rutherford Discovery Fellow School of Psychology http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/annette-henderson The University of Auckland Tel. 64 9 3737599 Ext 82521 Email: a.henderson@auckland.ac.nz Lab Website: http://earlylearning.ac.nz _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Nov 14 08:10:59 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 16:10:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Lecturer/Assistant Professor Position in Developmental Psychology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another job. Mike ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Emma L Blakey Date: Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 2:01 AM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Lecturer/Assistant Professor Position in Developmental Psychology To: , Dear colleagues, The Department of Psychology at the University of Sheffield is seeking to appoint a lecturer in Developmental Psychology to join the Sheffield Cognitive Development group. The appointment will be at Lecturer level (which is equivalent to an Assistant Professor tenure track position in the US system). Candidates should have a good honours degree and a PhD in a relevant subject area, a track record of high-quality publications in peer-reviewed journals and experience of supervising and teaching undergraduate students. The successful candidate will show a strong potential to research, teach, supervise, tutor and participate in appropriate departmental administrative roles, while adding to the breadth and depth of research and teaching skills within the team. The Sheffield Cognitive Development group has interests in executive functions, SES, language development and developmental disorders, however applications from other areas are also encouraged. Our lab is well set up for developmental testing as we have excellent links with local schools and a lab database for families who have volunteered to take part in our studies. You can read more about the position and apply here . If you would like to informally discuss this role, please contact myself , Dan Carroll or Danielle Matthews . You can also contact our head of department Glenn Waller or our equality and diversity lead Aarti Iyer . Best wishes, Emma --- Emma Blakey Lecturer in Developmental Psychology Department of Psychology | The University of Sheffield Cathedral Court | Sheffield | S1 1HD *Website:* http://www.shef.ac.uk/psychology/staff/academic/emma-blakey *T**witter: *@EmBlakey _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org From smago@uga.edu Tue Nov 14 14:46:30 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 22:46:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: New Book from IAP - Memory Practices and Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This just in?looks interesting. From: Information Age Publishing [mailto:iap@infoagepub.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 5:34 PM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: New Book from IAP - Memory Practices and Learning [News update from Information Age Publishing] [http://www.infoagepub.com/assets/images/covers/p57ac8ebb380e3.gif] Published 2017 ORDER ONLINE AT WWW.INFOAGEPUB.COM Hardcover 9781681236209 $85.99 Paperback 9781681236193 $45.99 eBook 9781681236216 Memory Practices and Learning Interactional, Institutional and Sociocultural Perspectives Edited by: ?sa M?kitalo, University of Gothenburg Per Linell, University of Link?ping, Sweden Roger S?lj?, University of Gothenburg A volume in Advances in Cultural Psychology: Constructing Human Development Memory and learning are seen as mental phenomena and generally studied as brain processes, for example, within various branches of psychology and neuroscience. This book represents a rather different tack, based on sociocultural theory, cultural psychology and dialogism. Authors from many different disciplines and countries study memory and learning as practices adopted by people in different interactional and institutional contexts. Studies range from detailed analyses of situated activities to broad sociohistorical studies of cultural phenomena and collective memories such as national narratives and physical symbols for commemorating events and traditions. By focusing on how people engage in remembering and learning, this book provides a necessary complement to currently popular neuroscientific approaches. CONTENTS Series Editors? Preface. Editor?s Preface. Introduction, Roger S?lj?. PART I: REMEMBERING IN CONVERSATIONS. Emergence in Conversational Remembering, Brady Wagoner and Alex Gillespie. Naming the Other: Category Memberships and Practices Of Ethnic Othering in Children?s Multiethnic Peer?Group Participations, Ann?Carita Evaldsson and Fritjof Sahlstr?m. Remembering as Instructional Work in the Science Classroom, Maria Andr?e, Per?Olof Wickman, and Lotta Lager-Nyqvist. ?If Green was A and Blue was B?: Isomorphism as an Instructable Matter, Timothy Koschmann and Sharon Derry. PART II: REMEMBERING, LEARNING AND COORDINATING WITH TECHNOLOGIES. Starting Out as a Driver: Progression in Instructed Pedal Work, Mathias Broth, Jakob Cromdal, and Lena Levin. Mobilizing Distributed Memory Resources in English Project Work, Nigel Musk and Asta ?ekait?. Practices of Remembering: Organizing Math Activities in a First Grade Classroom, Helen Melander and P?l Aarsand. Struggling With Powerful Conceptual Reifications: Cognitive Socialization When Learning to Reason as an Economist, ?sa M?kitalo and Roger S?lj?. PART III: REMEMBERING, NARRATION, AND THE REPRODUCTION OF INSTITUTIONS AND IDENTITIES. Narrative Tools, Truth, and Fast Thinking in National Memory: A Mnemonic Standoff Between Russia and the West Over Ukraine, James V. Wertsch. Collective Memory in Dynamics of Ethnopolitical Mobilization: The Karabakh Conflict, Rauf R. Garagozov. Memory and National Identity in a Modern State: The Nigerian Case, Golda Kosisochi Onyeneho. Connecting Dots: Family Reminiscence, Kyoko Murakami and Rachel L. Jacobs. PART IV: THE PAST AND THE PRESENT AS OPTIONS FOR THE FUTURE. Individual Remembering as Interactive Achievement: Reminiscing In Collective Interviewing, Wolff?Michael Roth. Making History: Apprehending Future While Reconstructing The Past, Giuseppina Marsico and Jaan Valsiner. Clocking Nature and Society, Geoffrey C. Bowker. Epilogue: Memory Practices Writ Large and Small, Per Linell and ?sa M?kitalo. About the Authors. Information Age Publishing | P.O. Box 79049 | Charlotte, NC 28271-7047 T: 704.752.9125 | F: 704.752.9113 | E: info@infoagepub.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail was sent to smago@uga.edu because you are subscribed to at least one of our mailing lists. If at any time you would like to remove yourself from our mailing list, please feel free to do so by visiting: http://infoagepub.net/lm/public/unsubscribe.php?g=139&addr=smago@uga.edu From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Nov 15 11:17:22 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:17:22 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: ISCAR Newsletter November 2017 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ISCAR news Date: Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 10:33 PM Subject: ISCAR Newsletter November 2017 To: Michael Cole ISCAR | International Society for Cultural-historical Activity Research Dear colleagues Please find attached the latest ISCAR Newsletter, including a report on the 2017 Congress, a focus on PhD students, details of a special issue, a welcome from our new President, and much more. If you are a current member please remember to renew, and bear in mind the benefits of the 3-year option. If your membership has lapsed, you are always welcome back! Either way, our new online membership system is now running smoothly, and we have options in place for those who may be unable to pay through international bank or card transactions. The Executive Committee is keen to populate the ISCAR website with more content this is both valuable to members and reflects activity, discussions and publications from across our global community. Please get in touch if you have suggestions or actual content you'd like to see there. Best wishes Nick ISCAR Newsletter Editor This mail is sent you through the website of ISCAR Unsubscribe 35 Berkeley Square Bristol, BS8 1JA United Kingdom -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ISCAR_Newsletter_Nov_2017.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1082525 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20171115/629aef24/attachment-0001.pdf From smago@uga.edu Mon Nov 13 07:57:13 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:57:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: 2018 JoLLE Winter Conference, February 3-4, 2018 ~ Register Now! In-Reply-To: <38bbae46a47f7c17089632687.00000e0fd8.20171113145917.8bf9efa88d.fecc962a@mail195.atl81.rsgsv.net> References: <38bbae46a47f7c17089632687.00000e0fd8.20171113145917.8bf9efa88d.fecc962a@mail195.atl81.rsgsv.net> Message-ID: Register now for the 2018 JoLLE Winter Conference! View this email in your browser [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/e2ce5ddea39cf772e39f40938/images/dee5f7c5-6ad4-4585-9ac0-053a32000668.png] 2018 JoLLE Winter Conference Reframing Pedagogical Practices and Language and Literacy Research: Teaching to the Future REGISTER NOW! ABOUT THE CONFERENCE ________________________________ February 3-4, 2018 The JoLLE Conference is a hands-on and participation based conference where presenters involve their audiences in the subject, process, and hope of their presentations. This year?s theme, Reframing Pedagogical Practices and Language and Literacy Research: Teaching to the Future invites teachers and researchers to examine what works well in our classrooms, the changing needs to 21st century students, and what literacy classrooms will look like in the future. LOCATION ________________________________ UGA Hotel and Conference Center [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/e2ce5ddea39cf772e39f40938/images/b55cb3e1-b8f4-4635-ae4d-bd69233d1f7c.jpg] More information FEATURED SPEAKERS ________________________________ [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/e2ce5ddea39cf772e39f40938/images/c9289ac7-3b9c-4fad-a9bf-f35ea1b811bf.jpg]Dr. Ebony Elizabeth Thomas is an assistant professor in literacy, culture, and international education at the University of Pennsylvania. Her work synthesizes postcolonial, critical, and critical race theory with data from her empirical research in classrooms to examine the ways that literature is positioned in schooling and society today. Thomas graduated with her PhD in English and education from the University of Michigan and her research interests include children?s and young adult literature, the teaching of literature, English education, African American education, and classroom interaction research. [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/e2ce5ddea39cf772e39f40938/images/bad79b2c-ede9-45dc-8896-14d816882e41.jpg]Donalyn Miller, a middle school teacher from Texas, is well known as an expert practitioner in English and language arts who believes in her students learning and reading. Affectionately known by those who read her first book as ?The Book Whisperer,? Miller has since published a follow up to her first book entitled "Reading in the Wild: The Book Whisperer?s Keys to Cultivating Lifelong Reading Habits." [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/e2ce5ddea39cf772e39f40938/images/ee2ed92e-9ba2-4951-8e86-5cdbeb97416c.png] For questions or more information, please contact JoLLE.Conference@gmail.com. [Facebook] [Twitter] [Instagram] [Website] Copyright ? 2017 UGA College of Education. All rights reserved. Our mailing address is: G3 Aderhold Hall 110 Carlton St. Athens, GA 30602 unsubscribe from this list update subscription preferences From smago@uga.edu Wed Nov 15 12:14:14 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 20:14:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Fall 2017 Issue of JoLLE is now up and available! Message-ID: Congratulations to the editorial board of the Journal of Language and Literacy Education! Our new issue is available as open access and ready for your readership. http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/current-issue/ Peter Smagorinsky Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education [University of Georgia] 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30602 Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga [cid:image001.jpg@01CEA4AC.71367E90] Personal twitter account: @psmagorinsky -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2929 bytes Desc: image001.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20171115/6e7b2bba/attachment.jpg From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Nov 15 16:59:00 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 16:59:00 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Fall 2017 Issue of JoLLE is now up and available! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A powerful image to open the issue, Peter. Worth holding in mind and thinking about. mike On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Congratulations to the editorial board of the Journal of Language and > Literacy Education! Our new issue is available as open access and ready for > your readership. > > http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/current-issue/ > > Peter Smagorinsky > Distinguished Research Professor edu/docs/policies/iga/DRP-Guidelines.pdf> of reference.com/browse/of> English Education edu/lle/english/secondary/index.html> > Department of Language and Literacy Education edu/lle/english/secondary/index.html> > [University of Georgia] > 315 Aderhold Hall > Athens, p://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/607/02/> GA< > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(U.S._state)> 30602< > http://www.city-data.com/zips/30602.html> > > Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education uga.edu/> > Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga > [cid:image001.jpg@01CEA4AC.71367E90] > > Personal twitter account: @psmagorinsky > > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Thu Nov 16 05:17:54 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 15:17:54 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Development of adults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond adolescence please, a similar one to mike's development of children? Thanks. Ulvi From ablunden@mira.net Thu Nov 16 05:29:17 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 00:29:17 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6a8d6cf3-f6d5-d3f6-cbc6-68745dd77386@mira.net> Ulvi, this is a difficult question, once a person has reached adulthood, there is no "developmental pathway" other than progression through the various roles provided by the culture in which they live, only a few of which have a "developmental" connotation. We don't have "Elders" nowadays. Books on "moral development" may be of some use. Leontyev's "Activity, Consciousness and Personality" has some value as well as some limitations. Of course, I will recommend Vasilyuk's book. Other than that you have to read about development in specific lines - political, professional, or whatever, and read as many biographies and autobiographies as you can. :) Maybe I'm missing something. But I don't think there's a simple answer here. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 17/11/2017 12:17 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond adolescence > please, a similar one to mike's development of children? > Thanks. > Ulvi > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Thu Nov 16 05:33:20 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 15:33:20 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults In-Reply-To: <6a8d6cf3-f6d5-d3f6-cbc6-68745dd77386@mira.net> References: <6a8d6cf3-f6d5-d3f6-cbc6-68745dd77386@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks Andy. 16 Kas 2017 16:31 tarihinde "Andy Blunden" yazd?: > Ulvi, this is a difficult question, once a person has > reached adulthood, there is no "developmental pathway" other > than progression through the various roles provided by the > culture in which they live, only a few of which have a > "developmental" connotation. We don't have "Elders" nowadays. > > Books on "moral development" may be of some use. Leontyev's > "Activity, Consciousness and Personality" has some value as > well as some limitations. Of course, I will recommend > Vasilyuk's book. Other than that you have to read about > development in specific lines - political, professional, or > whatever, and read as many biographies and autobiographies > as you can. > > :) Maybe I'm missing something. But I don't think there's a > simple answer here. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 17/11/2017 12:17 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond > adolescence > > please, a similar one to mike's development of children? > > Thanks. > > Ulvi > > > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Nov 16 05:42:46 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 13:42:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults In-Reply-To: <6a8d6cf3-f6d5-d3f6-cbc6-68745dd77386@mira.net> References: , <6a8d6cf3-f6d5-d3f6-cbc6-68745dd77386@mira.net> Message-ID: <1510839766719.27296@iped.uio.no> Andy, would that view imply that adult development is grounded on development of/in the disciplines (or whatever one may mean by 'roles provided by the culture'), while childhood development is not? Or, what is that other "developmental pathway" in childhood that is not "progression through the various roles provided by the culture"? Thanks, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: 16 November 2017 14:29 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults Ulvi, this is a difficult question, once a person has reached adulthood, there is no "developmental pathway" other than progression through the various roles provided by the culture in which they live, only a few of which have a "developmental" connotation. We don't have "Elders" nowadays. Books on "moral development" may be of some use. Leontyev's "Activity, Consciousness and Personality" has some value as well as some limitations. Of course, I will recommend Vasilyuk's book. Other than that you have to read about development in specific lines - political, professional, or whatever, and read as many biographies and autobiographies as you can. :) Maybe I'm missing something. But I don't think there's a simple answer here. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 17/11/2017 12:17 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond adolescence > please, a similar one to mike's development of children? > Thanks. > Ulvi > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Nov 16 08:30:14 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 08:30:14 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The first and second editions of our textbook had a chapter on aging beyond youth, Ulvi. It made the book too long for US quarter systems in universities and was cut as a result. The chapter begins with a thought from Milan Kundera that resonated with me when it was written 30 years ago and rings true to me approaching 80: ?We are born one time only, we can never start a new life equipped with the experience we've gained from the previous one. We leave childhood without knowing what youth is, we marry without knowing what it is to be married, and even when we enter old age, we don't know what it is we're heading for: the old are innocent children innocent of their old age. In that sense, man's world is the planet of inexperience?- Milan Kundera, *The art of the novel.* I'll leave the question of whether this thought implies that development is a life long process or not to the experts. mike PS- You might find the work of Paul Baltes and his students interesting. He was, in his way, a cultural-historical psychologist. I wonder, who is doing work on lifespan psychology in Russia these days? On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:17 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond adolescence > please, a similar one to mike's development of children? > Thanks. > Ulvi > From wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com Thu Nov 16 08:50:16 2017 From: wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com (Wolff-Michael Roth) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 08:50:16 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is a recent study following people from age 14 to 77 suggesting personality changes continuously into old age: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5144810/ Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 8:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > The first and second editions of our textbook had a chapter on aging beyond > youth, Ulvi. It made the book too long for US quarter systems in > universities and > was cut as a result. The chapter begins with a thought from Milan Kundera > that resonated with me when it was written 30 years ago and rings true to > me approaching 80: > > ?We are born one time only, we can never start a new life equipped with the > experience we've gained from the previous one. We leave childhood without > knowing what youth is, we marry without knowing what it is to be married, > and even when we enter old age, we don't know what it is we're heading for: > the old are innocent children innocent of their old age. In that sense, > man's world is the planet of inexperience?- Milan Kundera, *The art of the > novel.* > > > I'll leave the question of whether this thought implies that development is > a life long > > process or not to the experts. > > > mike > > > PS- You might find the work of Paul Baltes and his students interesting. He > was, in his way, a cultural-historical psychologist. I wonder, who is doing > work on lifespan > > psychology in Russia these days? > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:17 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond > adolescence > > please, a similar one to mike's development of children? > > Thanks. > > Ulvi > > > From bazerman@education.ucsb.edu Thu Nov 16 09:05:41 2017 From: bazerman@education.ucsb.edu (Charles Bazerman) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:05:41 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There have been a number of studies about adult writing development intersecting with other kinds of identity, emotional, civic and professional development. Deborah Brandt's two books based on retrospective interviews, Literacy in American Lives and The Rise of Writing, are good places to start. David Barton's ethnographic studies in the UK are also important. Many others have followed, including studies by Kate Vieira who focuses on immigrants, documentation, and community life. Chuck Bazerman On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth < wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > There is a recent study following people from age 14 to 77 suggesting > personality changes continuously into old age: > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5144810/ > Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 8:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > The first and second editions of our textbook had a chapter on aging > beyond > > youth, Ulvi. It made the book too long for US quarter systems in > > universities and > > was cut as a result. The chapter begins with a thought from Milan Kundera > > that resonated with me when it was written 30 years ago and rings true to > > me approaching 80: > > > > ?We are born one time only, we can never start a new life equipped with > the > > experience we've gained from the previous one. We leave childhood without > > knowing what youth is, we marry without knowing what it is to be married, > > and even when we enter old age, we don't know what it is we're heading > for: > > the old are innocent children innocent of their old age. In that sense, > > man's world is the planet of inexperience?- Milan Kundera, *The art of > the > > novel.* > > > > > > I'll leave the question of whether this thought implies that development > is > > a life long > > > > process or not to the experts. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > PS- You might find the work of Paul Baltes and his students interesting. > He > > was, in his way, a cultural-historical psychologist. I wonder, who is > doing > > work on lifespan > > > > psychology in Russia these days? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:17 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond > > adolescence > > > please, a similar one to mike's development of children? > > > Thanks. > > > Ulvi > > > > > > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Thu Nov 16 09:20:20 2017 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:20:20 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is one of the books I have on this topic. https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mature_Mind.html?id=JdqOYdOZY3cC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false Robert On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 12:05 PM, Charles Bazerman < bazerman@education.ucsb.edu> wrote: > There have been a number of studies about adult writing development > intersecting with other kinds of identity, emotional, civic and > professional development. Deborah Brandt's two books based on retrospective > interviews, Literacy in American Lives and The Rise of Writing, are good > places to start. David Barton's ethnographic studies in the UK are also > important. Many others have followed, including studies by Kate Vieira who > focuses on immigrants, documentation, and community life. > Chuck Bazerman > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > > > There is a recent study following people from age 14 to 77 suggesting > > personality changes continuously into old age: > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5144810/ > > Michael > > > > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > -------------------- > > Applied Cognitive Science > > MacLaurin Building A567 > > University of Victoria > > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > > > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > > mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > > > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 8:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > The first and second editions of our textbook had a chapter on aging > > beyond > > > youth, Ulvi. It made the book too long for US quarter systems in > > > universities and > > > was cut as a result. The chapter begins with a thought from Milan > Kundera > > > that resonated with me when it was written 30 years ago and rings true > to > > > me approaching 80: > > > > > > ?We are born one time only, we can never start a new life equipped with > > the > > > experience we've gained from the previous one. We leave childhood > without > > > knowing what youth is, we marry without knowing what it is to be > married, > > > and even when we enter old age, we don't know what it is we're heading > > for: > > > the old are innocent children innocent of their old age. In that sense, > > > man's world is the planet of inexperience?- Milan Kundera, *The art of > > the > > > novel.* > > > > > > > > > I'll leave the question of whether this thought implies that > development > > is > > > a life long > > > > > > process or not to the experts. > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > PS- You might find the work of Paul Baltes and his students > interesting. > > He > > > was, in his way, a cultural-historical psychologist. I wonder, who is > > doing > > > work on lifespan > > > > > > psychology in Russia these days? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:17 AM, Ulvi ??il > wrote: > > > > > > > Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond > > > adolescence > > > > please, a similar one to mike's development of children? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Ulvi > > > > > > > > > > -- Robert Lake Ed.D. Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* vol.39, 2017 Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An Intellectual Genealogy. http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 From Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch Thu Nov 16 09:40:27 2017 From: Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch (PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 17:40:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ..Here in Neuch?tel, Tania Zittoun is working on related questions: Zittoun, T., Valsiner, J., Vedeler, D., Salgado, J., Gon?alves, M., & Ferring, D. (2013). Human development in the lifecourse. Melodies of living. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Zittoun, T., & Sato, T. (2018). Imagination in adults and the aging person: Possible futures and actual past. In T. Zittoun, & V. P. Glaveanu (Eds.) Handbook of culture and imagination. (pp. 187-208). New York/Oxford: Oxford University Press. Zittoun, T. (2016). Reflexivity, or learning from living. In G. Marsico, R. Ruggero Andrisano, & S. Salvatore (Eds.) Reflexivity and Psychology. (Vol. 6, pp. 143-167). Charlotte, NC: Information Age Publishing. more here: https://libra.unine.ch/Publications/citation/Tania_Zittoun_Mazourek . Dominic?, P. (2005). Learning in Adulthood. In A.-N. Perret-Clermont & al. (Eds.), Thinking time: a multidisciplinary perspective on time (pp. 163-169). Seattle, Toronto, G?ttingen, Bern: Hofrege & Huber Publishers. I attach this chapter here. But you can get a better version of it if you download a free copy of the book here: http://doc.rero.ch/record/28979?ln=fr . the European Society for Research on the Education of Adults (ESREA) has a Life History and Biography network. : http://www.esrea.org/?l=en Best greetings Anne-Nelly Institut de psychologie et ?ducation Facult? des lettres et sciences humaines Universit? de Neuch?tel Espace L. Agassiz 1, CH- 2000 Neuch?tel (Switzerland) http://www.unine.ch/ipe/publications/anne_nelly_perret_clermont -----Message d'origine----- De : on behalf of Wolff-Michael Roth R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date : jeudi, 16 novembre 2017 17:50 ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Objet : [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults There is a recent study following people from age 14 to 77 suggesting personality changes continuously into old age: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5144810/ Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 8:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > The first and second editions of our textbook had a chapter on aging >beyond > youth, Ulvi. It made the book too long for US quarter systems in > universities and > was cut as a result. The chapter begins with a thought from Milan Kundera > that resonated with me when it was written 30 years ago and rings true to > me approaching 80: > > ?We are born one time only, we can never start a new life equipped with >the > experience we've gained from the previous one. We leave childhood without > knowing what youth is, we marry without knowing what it is to be married, > and even when we enter old age, we don't know what it is we're heading >for: > the old are innocent children innocent of their old age. In that sense, > man's world is the planet of inexperience?- Milan Kundera, *The art of >the > novel.* > > > I'll leave the question of whether this thought implies that development >is > a life long > > process or not to the experts. > > > mike > > > PS- You might find the work of Paul Baltes and his students interesting. >He > was, in his way, a cultural-historical psychologist. I wonder, who is >doing > work on lifespan > > psychology in Russia these days? > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:17 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond > adolescence > > please, a similar one to mike's development of children? > > Thanks. > > Ulvi > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dominice2005.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 981916 bytes Desc: dominice2005.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20171116/51110515/attachment-0001.pdf From arips@optonline.net Thu Nov 16 09:43:01 2017 From: arips@optonline.net (avram rips) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:43:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Anouncing the Internationa Association for Cognitive Education and Psychology Conference in January in Mexico In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3afdca28.6873.15fc5ed4276.Webtop.48@optonline.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: The Thinking Teacher 2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 683966 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20171116/26cec946/attachment.pdf From alexander.surmava@yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 09:53:57 2017 From: alexander.surmava@yahoo.com (Alexander Surmava) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 17:53:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgIERldmVsb3BtZW50IG9mIGFkdWx0cw==?= References: <2067617572.2448844.1510854837617.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2067617572.2448844.1510854837617@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Ulvi I think it's pointless to look for books about the development of adults among treatises on "psychology". ?The best books on this topic were written by William Shakespeare and John Byron, Leo Tolstoy and Anton Chekhov, Emil Zola and Stendhal. And yet, all the philosophers wrote about the development of adults. But not modern philosophers positivists and postmodernists, but philosophers belonging to classical philosophy. From Thales and Anaxagoras, to Spinoza, Hegel and Marx. To the connoisseurs of the human soul, I would classify the classics of political economy - Adam Smith, David Ricardo, Jean Charles Sismondi. And again, Marx with Engels, and Ilyenkov.I agree with Andy, only Leontiev is worth reading from psychologists. But even in case of Leontiev it's worth to reed his texts in the last turn. After all of the above.Personality is what its activity is. And human activity develops not according to the mythical "laws of the psyche", but in the system of real historically established relationships with other people about the joint production of their common life, and therefore according to the laws studied by political economy, history, legal science, according to the laws of nature at last.The best "psychological" books on the psychology of adults - this is not science, but bad bellectristics. Do not waste time reading bad literatue if you can read GOOD literature.Enjoy reading,Sasha ??: Ulvi ??il ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ??????????: ???????, 16 ?????? 2017 16:20 ????: [Xmca-l] Development of adults Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond adolescence please, a similar one to mike's development of children? Thanks. Ulvi From ablunden@mira.net Thu Nov 16 13:29:21 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:29:21 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults In-Reply-To: <1510839766719.27296@iped.uio.no> References: <6a8d6cf3-f6d5-d3f6-cbc6-68745dd77386@mira.net> <1510839766719.27296@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <48874dab-8d7b-4c81-3f41-61272350a008@mira.net> While I have slept, Alfredo, xmca has been flooded with suggestions for books on "life-span development". What a great community. "The difference between the absolute and the relative is relative. There is always an absolute within the relative and the absolute is always relative." Childhood: no infant is born speaking a language. 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 years later every normally developing child speaks the language of their community (subject to qualifications about hearing impairment). Once the passage through childhood is complete (whether that is deemed to take 11 years or 25 years) and they are full participants in the life of their community. Vygotsky said in respect to one of these transitions: "Facts show that in other conditions of rearing, the crisis occurs differently. In children who go from nursery school to kindergarten, the crisis occurs differently than it does in children who go into kindergarten from the family. However, this crisis occurs in all normally proceeding child development. ..." Nowadays, we are more conscious of the diversity of cultural development, and would probably formulate this idea somewhat more broadly than did the founder of Cultural Psychology - we do not all end up in exactly the same place, living in different cultures. But by definition all children complete their apprenticeship and become full citizens of their community. The new born in every country of the world is qualitatively psychologically different from the adult citizen. Adult societies offer only one role I can think of which is in any way comparable to the stages of child development: retirement, or becoming an Elder or a grandparent or Emeritus. But these are vague, ill-defined roles, I think hardly comparable to, for example, "school-age." Adults of course go on developing, and we do tend to have very generalised expectations about people according to their stage in life, but these are so variable across social class and cultural difference, I think the subject cannot be addressed in the same way as child development. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 17/11/2017 12:42 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Andy, would that view imply that adult development is grounded on development of/in the disciplines (or whatever one may mean by 'roles provided by the culture'), while childhood development is not? Or, what is that other "developmental pathway" in childhood that is not "progression through the various roles provided by the culture"? > > Thanks, > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: 16 November 2017 14:29 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Development of adults > > Ulvi, this is a difficult question, once a person has > reached adulthood, there is no "developmental pathway" other > than progression through the various roles provided by the > culture in which they live, only a few of which have a > "developmental" connotation. We don't have "Elders" nowadays. > > Books on "moral development" may be of some use. Leontyev's > "Activity, Consciousness and Personality" has some value as > well as some limitations. Of course, I will recommend > Vasilyuk's book. Other than that you have to read about > development in specific lines - political, professional, or > whatever, and read as many biographies and autobiographies > as you can. > > :) Maybe I'm missing something. But I don't think there's a > simple answer here. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 17/11/2017 12:17 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >> Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond adolescence >> please, a similar one to mike's development of children? >> Thanks. >> Ulvi >> >> > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Thu Nov 16 22:08:21 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:08:21 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiBEZXZlbG9wbWVudCBvZiBhZHVsdHM=?= In-Reply-To: <2067617572.2448844.1510854837617@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2067617572.2448844.1510854837617.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2067617572.2448844.1510854837617@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks! 16 Kas 2017 21:08 tarihinde "Alexander Surmava" yazd?: > Dear Ulvi > I think it's pointless to look for books about the development of adults > among treatises on "psychology". The best books on this topic were written > by William Shakespeare and John Byron, Leo Tolstoy and Anton Chekhov, Emil > Zola and Stendhal. And yet, all the philosophers wrote about the > development of adults. But not modern philosophers positivists and > postmodernists, but philosophers belonging to classical philosophy. From > Thales and Anaxagoras, to Spinoza, Hegel and Marx. To the connoisseurs of > the human soul, I would classify the classics of political economy - Adam > Smith, David Ricardo, Jean Charles Sismondi. And again, Marx with Engels, > and Ilyenkov.I agree with Andy, only Leontiev is worth reading from > psychologists. But even in case of Leontiev it's worth to reed his texts in > the last turn. After all of the above.Personality is what its activity is. > And human activity develops not according to the mythical "laws of the > psyche", but in the system of real historically established relationships > with other people about the joint production of their common life, and > therefore according to the laws studied by political economy, history, > legal science, according to the laws of nature at last.The best > "psychological" books on the psychology of adults - this is not science, > but bad bellectristics. Do not waste time reading bad literatue if you can > read GOOD literature.Enjoy reading,Sasha > > ??: Ulvi ??il > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > ??????????: ???????, 16 ?????? 2017 16:20 > ????: [Xmca-l] Development of adults > > Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond adolescence > please, a similar one to mike's development of children? > Thanks. > Ulvi > > > > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Fri Nov 17 08:25:52 2017 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:25:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiBEZXZlbG9wbWVudCBvZiBhZHVsdHM=?= In-Reply-To: References: <2067617572.2448844.1510854837617.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2067617572.2448844.1510854837617@mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: Ulvi, i believe that it is important to keep in mind the heteronormativity implicit as well as explicit constructed in adult development theories. William Perry's original work was based on male undergraduates at Harvard. Kohlberg's theory or moral development is grounded in western technologies, values and religious beliefs. while Carol Gilligan's and Nell Nodding's work has been grounded in feminist theory, little have been done with critical race theory. in fact, just now i'm reminded of Jose E. Limon's "Dancing with the Devil" (1994), in which he attempted to understand the society and cultural poetics of Mexican-American South Texas, that while Marxist theory could cast light on male behaviour it was of no use in understand women's behaviour. at his wife's suggestion, Limon then turned to feminist theory to understand the women's behaviour. thus far, suggestions for literature readings have focused on straight, white European males. i'd like to suggest James Baldwin's "Giovanni's Room", and Virginia Woolf's "Between the Acts" as additional examples. as well, while it has been suggested that once it was assumed that moving through the developments of childhood resulted in full participation within the adult community, as Lave and Wenger in "Situated Learning" (1991), full legitimate participation is not guaranteed. certainly recent events around sexual harassment of women or black live matter demonstrate that this is hardly the case. also, Paul Robinson's "Gay Lives: Homosexual autobiography from John Addington Symonds to Paul Monette" (1999). again, all of my suggestions are within the cultural domain of white, european culture. but, it's a start. i suggest that using a culturally ground theory - particularly critical race, feminist, & queer theory - while begin to bring greater understanding and enlightenment on adult development that illuminates the struggles of adult development within marginalised communities. and finally, which adult education is often focused on skills-based instruction for reemployment due to changing economic conditions and technologies, often what corporations want are compliant workers, docile bodies (Foucault). good luck on your venture. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Ulvi ??il Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:08:21 PM To: Alexander Surmava; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: Development of adults Thanks! 16 Kas 2017 21:08 tarihinde "Alexander Surmava" yazd?: > Dear Ulvi > I think it's pointless to look for books about the development of adults > among treatises on "psychology". The best books on this topic were written > by William Shakespeare and John Byron, Leo Tolstoy and Anton Chekhov, Emil > Zola and Stendhal. And yet, all the philosophers wrote about the > development of adults. But not modern philosophers positivists and > postmodernists, but philosophers belonging to classical philosophy. From > Thales and Anaxagoras, to Spinoza, Hegel and Marx. To the connoisseurs of > the human soul, I would classify the classics of political economy - Adam > Smith, David Ricardo, Jean Charles Sismondi. And again, Marx with Engels, > and Ilyenkov.I agree with Andy, only Leontiev is worth reading from > psychologists. But even in case of Leontiev it's worth to reed his texts in > the last turn. After all of the above.Personality is what its activity is. > And human activity develops not according to the mythical "laws of the > psyche", but in the system of real historically established relationships > with other people about the joint production of their common life, and > therefore according to the laws studied by political economy, history, > legal science, according to the laws of nature at last.The best > "psychological" books on the psychology of adults - this is not science, > but bad bellectristics. Do not waste time reading bad literatue if you can > read GOOD literature.Enjoy reading,Sasha > > ??: Ulvi ??il > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > ??????????: ???????, 16 ?????? 2017 16:20 > ????: [Xmca-l] Development of adults > > Can anyone propose one or two good books on develeopment beyond adolescence > please, a similar one to mike's development of children? > Thanks. > Ulvi > > > > From bferholt@gmail.com Fri Nov 17 23:46:13 2017 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 02:46:13 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Thank you, Ulvi. I AM sorry for the delay. Sometimes I can not keep with XMCA's pace. At this point the thread has gone in too many (new for me) directions for me to follow, although the second reading looks very useful for me now -- thank you, David. We were thinking of all consciousness as having an aesthetic form, but I am trying to develop this a little more in an upcoming chapter. I saw Pinar used Woolf's Mrs. Bennet and Mr. Brown and so went back to that -- I do suggest it to you if you have not read it! Beth On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Berth, > > >From your article with Nillson: > > to describe a perezhivanie, just > described as ?the frame that makes life like art,? as an action: a means of > creating the aesthetic form of > consciousness. > > Then, we can suppose that a poet, as an artist, if he is especially a > communist one, loaded with consciousness, who strives for creating the > aesthetic form of consciousness for others, can live life as a perezhivanie > and can us make use of his own life to "teach life to others" and "to > fasten development of consciousness" (these two latter belon to Nazim > Hikmet, communist poet). > > I think your article with Nillson will be a very enligtening one. > > Ulvi > > > > On 8 November 2017 at 18:33, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > Robert, Thank you so much for this paper. It is just what I need to read > > NOW, for a chapter proposal I am reading. Wonderful. > > Ulvi, Thank you very much: I can send this congratulations back to my > > younger self : ) . > > Beth > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Robert Lake < > boblake@georgiasouthern.edu> > > wrote: > > > > > Thanks Beth! > > > I am reminded immediately of Pinar and Grumet's notion of " Currere" > the > > > infinitive form of the Latin word curriculum. > > > which I continually use for and with my education students. > > > In 2004 Pinar explained that: > > > The method of currere reconceptualized curriculum from course > > > objectives to complicated conversation with oneself > > > (as a 'private' intellectual), an ongoing project of > > self-understanding > > > in which one becomes mobilized for engaged pedagogical action > > > ?as a private-and-public intellectual ? with others in the social > > > reconstruction of the public sphere". *What is Curriculum Theory.* > > > > > > This approach has been misrepresented as being "too Western and linear" > > > but I think that is unfair. Your can use this anyway you want. It also > > > reminds me of LSV'S notion of the dialectic between inner speech > > > and public "performance." > > > > > > Here is a link to the groundbreaking paper from 1975. > > > > > > http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED104766.pdf > > > > > > Robert L. > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt > > wrote: > > > > > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and > > > Punishment > > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, > > > formation > > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center was > > > > Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. > > > > > > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is the > > > > better place to look is very interesting, and a response would have > > > > something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide because > in > > > > suicide and some art you have an end point: In autobiography you have > > the > > > > "I", I suppose, but you need to have the closure, too. > > > > > > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows > > > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is > helpful > > > > here. > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thank you Robert! > > > > > > > > > > 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" < > > boblake@georgiasouthern.edu> > > > > > yazd?: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! > > > > > > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in > > 1984 > > > > > > before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner > > > > > > referred to this with his students this way. > > > > > > ? > > > > > > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing > about > > > > > things > > > > > > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and > > > self-repair ? > > > > > how > > > > > > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go > > > "meta," > > > > > to > > > > > > think about their ways of thinking. > > > > > > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* > > > > > > , 1984. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Robert L.* > > > > > > > > > > > > Retrieved from : > > > > > > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- > > > > > > meta-all-the-time/ > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the > > > > > > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography > > > > > > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks > > > > > > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped > > > > > > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening > > > > > > > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's > > > > > > > multi-volume autobiography to you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > Andy Blunden > > > > > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to be > a > > > > > > principal > > > > > > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva > > > > > > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and > > > > literature... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, is > > to > > > > look > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do not > > use > > > > the > > > > > > > > concept, > > > > > > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in > those > > > > > > theses... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study > > > > > > "perezhivanie" > > > > > > > > for reasons easy to conceive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, > > Tsvetaeva...who > > > > all > > > > > > > > suicided, unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua > non > > > > > concept > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, > and > > > > many > > > > > > > others. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should > not > > > be > > > > > > > studied > > > > > > > >> without this concept. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Completely impossible. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of > > sounds, > > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and > affect, > > > > > > cognition > > > > > > > >> and emotion. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because > for > > > > > > instance, > > > > > > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says > > that > > > > the > > > > > > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on > colour > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > poems > > > > > > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more > > sensitive > > > to > > > > > > > sounds > > > > > > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian > > > language > > > > > and > > > > > > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of > > > rythm > > > > in > > > > > > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian > > databases? A > > > > > poet > > > > > > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden < > ablunden@mira.net> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read > > > > > > > >>> as well: > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% > > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Andy > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > >>> Andy Blunden > > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > > > > > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > > > >>>> Dear all, > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and > playwright, > > > > Nazim > > > > > > > >>> Hikmet, > > > > > > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life > > > > experiences > > > > > > at > > > > > > > >>> each > > > > > > > >>>> stage of his life, > > > > > > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general on > > > > > learning > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great > > poets, > > > > > > > painters > > > > > > > >>> and > > > > > > > >>>> play writers. > > > > > > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section > below > > > > from > > > > > > his > > > > > > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a > theoretical > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> Thank you. > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> Ulvi > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. A > > > table > > > > > > with > > > > > > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval > > table > > > > was > > > > > > > >>> covered > > > > > > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside house > > in > > > > > > > ?sk?dar, a > > > > > > > >>>> rococo > > > > > > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I > > made > > > > > from > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >>>> Black > > > > > > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the > > > > thirty-five-day, > > > > > > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear > > > > > > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in > short, > > to > > > > > make > > > > > > a > > > > > > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s > descendant?more > > > > > > > precisely, > > > > > > > >>> a > > > > > > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in > the > > > > H?tel > > > > > de > > > > > > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a > tattered, > > > > dirty, > > > > > > > >>>> blood-stained > > > > > > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, and > my > > > > blood > > > > > > > >>> rushes > > > > > > > >>>> to my > > > > > > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the house > by > > > the > > > > > sea > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The > decision > > > was > > > > > > made: > > > > > > > >>> death > > > > > > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the > > > > > questions > > > > > > on > > > > > > > >>> this > > > > > > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you sacrifice > > for > > > > > this > > > > > > > >>> cause? > > > > > > > >>>> What > > > > > > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your freedom? > > > Yes! > > > > > How > > > > > > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my > > life, > > > if > > > > > > > >>> necessary! > > > > > > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You > > can?t > > > > wait > > > > > > to > > > > > > > >>>> travel, > > > > > > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave > > > Anatolia > > > > > > here > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > >>>> this > > > > > > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and back > > to > > > > > Ankara > > > > > > > >>> from > > > > > > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a > > > > minister?women, > > > > > > > >>> wining > > > > > > > >>>> and > > > > > > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can > spend > > my > > > > > whole > > > > > > > >>> life in > > > > > > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or > > > drowned > > > > > like > > > > > > > >>> Mustafa > > > > > > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you > ask > > > > > > yourself > > > > > > > >>> these > > > > > > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you afraid > of > > > > being > > > > > > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without > > > > thinking? > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > >>>> first knew > > > > > > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready to > > be > > > > > > > disabled, > > > > > > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, > > heart > > > > > > disease, > > > > > > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I > hadn?t > > > > > thought > > > > > > > >>> about > > > > > > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes tight > > and > > > > > > walked > > > > > > > >>> around > > > > > > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked > > around > > > > the > > > > > > > room > > > > > > > >>> in > > > > > > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I > > didn?t > > > > > open > > > > > > my > > > > > > > >>> eyes. > > > > > > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can > > > accept > > > > > > > >>> blindness. > > > > > > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is > > the > > > > > truth. > > > > > > > Not > > > > > > > >>>> books or > > > > > > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought me > > > > where I > > > > > > am. > > > > > > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen > only > > > on > > > > > the > > > > > > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I am. > > > > That?s > > > > > > how > > > > > > > >>> it is > > > > > > > >>>> . > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > > > > Associate Professor > > > > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > > > > > Georgia Southern University > > > > > > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > > > > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural > Studies,* > > > > > vol.39, > > > > > > 2017 > > > > > > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social > > Imagination: > > > An > > > > > > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > > > > > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake* > Democracy > > > > must > > > > > be > > > > > > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* > John > > > > > > Dewey-*Democracy > > > > > > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > Associate Professor > > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > Associate Professor > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > > Georgia Southern University > > > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* > > vol.39, > > > 2017 > > > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An > > > Intellectual Genealogy. > > > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 > > > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy > must > > be > > > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > > > Dewey-*Democracy > > > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Associate Professor > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > -- Beth Ferholt Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From bferholt@gmail.com Fri Nov 17 23:53:40 2017 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 02:53:40 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Sorry to have misgendered Bennett and Brown -- : http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/MrBennettAndMrsBrown.pdf Beth On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 2:46 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > Thank you, Ulvi. I AM sorry for the delay. Sometimes I can not keep with > XMCA's pace. > > At this point the thread has gone in too many (new for me) directions for > me to follow, although the second reading looks very useful for me now -- > thank you, David. > > We were thinking of all consciousness as having an aesthetic form, but I > am trying to develop this a little more in an upcoming chapter. > > I saw Pinar used Woolf's Mrs. Bennet and Mr. Brown and so went back to > that -- I do suggest it to you if you have not read it! > > Beth > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> Berth, >> >> >From your article with Nillson: >> >> to describe a perezhivanie, just >> described as ?the frame that makes life like art,? as an action: a means >> of >> creating the aesthetic form of >> consciousness. >> >> Then, we can suppose that a poet, as an artist, if he is especially a >> communist one, loaded with consciousness, who strives for creating the >> aesthetic form of consciousness for others, can live life as a >> perezhivanie >> and can us make use of his own life to "teach life to others" and "to >> fasten development of consciousness" (these two latter belon to Nazim >> Hikmet, communist poet). >> >> I think your article with Nillson will be a very enligtening one. >> >> Ulvi >> >> >> >> On 8 November 2017 at 18:33, Beth Ferholt wrote: >> >> > Robert, Thank you so much for this paper. It is just what I need to >> read >> > NOW, for a chapter proposal I am reading. Wonderful. >> > Ulvi, Thank you very much: I can send this congratulations back to my >> > younger self : ) . >> > Beth >> > >> > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Robert Lake < >> boblake@georgiasouthern.edu> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Thanks Beth! >> > > I am reminded immediately of Pinar and Grumet's notion of " Currere" >> the >> > > infinitive form of the Latin word curriculum. >> > > which I continually use for and with my education students. >> > > In 2004 Pinar explained that: >> > > The method of currere reconceptualized curriculum from course >> > > objectives to complicated conversation with oneself >> > > (as a 'private' intellectual), an ongoing project of >> > self-understanding >> > > in which one becomes mobilized for engaged pedagogical action >> > > ?as a private-and-public intellectual ? with others in the >> social >> > > reconstruction of the public sphere". *What is Curriculum Theory.* >> > > >> > > This approach has been misrepresented as being "too Western and >> linear" >> > > but I think that is unfair. Your can use this anyway you want. It also >> > > reminds me of LSV'S notion of the dialectic between inner speech >> > > and public "performance." >> > > >> > > Here is a link to the groundbreaking paper from 1975. >> > > >> > > http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED104766.pdf >> > > >> > > Robert L. >> > > >> > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Beth Ferholt >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > > Before Mike introduced me to Vasilyuk -- who looks to Crime and >> > > Punishment >> > > > -- I thought the best place to go to think about a person's life, >> > > formation >> > > > and learning with something similar to perezhivanie at the center >> was >> > > > Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse and The Waves especially. >> > > > >> > > > I think the question of whether or not autobiography or poetry is >> the >> > > > better place to look is very interesting, and a response would have >> > > > something to do with bodily sensations but also with suicide >> because in >> > > > suicide and some art you have an end point: In autobiography you >> have >> > the >> > > > "I", I suppose, but you need to have the closure, too. >> > > > >> > > > I think you combine these two with the "going meta," and Woolf shows >> > > > herself thinking about thinking ... so this is why her work is >> helpful >> > > > here. >> > > > Beth >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Ulvi ??il >> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Thank you Robert! >> > > > > >> > > > > 8 Kas 2017 17:56 tarihinde "Robert Lake" < >> > boblake@georgiasouthern.edu> >> > > > > yazd?: >> > > > > >> > > > > > Hi Andy, Ulvi and all! >> > > > > > Thank-you for connecting autobiography and perezhivanie. Back in >> > 1984 >> > > > > > before #meta became trendy,Jerome Bruner >> > > > > > referred to this with his students this way. >> > > > > > ? >> > > > > > There was also talk about how people go beyond merely knowing >> about >> > > > > things >> > > > > > to reflecting upon them in order to effect correction and >> > > self-repair ? >> > > > > how >> > > > > > to get students to reflect, to turn around on themselves, to go >> > > "meta," >> > > > > to >> > > > > > think about their ways of thinking. >> > > > > > ?"Notes on the Cognitive Revolution" (*Interchange* >> > > > > > , 1984. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > *Robert L.* >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Retrieved from : >> > > > > > https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/its-getting- >> > > > > > meta-all-the-time/ >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Andy Blunden > > >> > > > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I think autobiography is a genre which is very rich for the >> > > > > > > study of perezhivanie; even the writing of the autobiography >> > > > > > > itself is a part of the perezhivanie, as the writer looks >> > > > > > > back over their life, and the experiences which have shaped >> > > > > > > them, reassessing how they responded to events intervening >> > > > > > > in their life and surviving. I think I mentioned Gorki's >> > > > > > > multi-volume autobiography to you, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Andy >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > > > > > Andy Blunden >> > > > > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >> > > > > > > On 7/11/2017 6:28 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >> > > > > > > > Also the following "survival of culture" theme is said to >> be a >> > > > > > principal >> > > > > > > > worry for Marina Tsvetaeva >> > > > > > > > by this same Turkish professor on Russian language and >> > > > literature... >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Anyway, another method to study "perezhivanie", I believe, >> is >> > to >> > > > look >> > > > > > > into >> > > > > > > > theses on the life of such Russian poets, even if they do >> not >> > use >> > > > the >> > > > > > > > concept, >> > > > > > > > we can be sure that there is a lot of "perezhivanie" in >> those >> > > > > > theses... >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > probably because poets are the best human beings to study >> > > > > > "perezhivanie" >> > > > > > > > for reasons easy to conceive. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Especially when we think to Mayakovsky, Yesenin, >> > Tsvetaeva...who >> > > > all >> > > > > > > > suicided, unfortunately. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On 6 November 2017 at 21:14, Ulvi ??il > > >> > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> It seems to me that the concept perezhivanie is a sine qua >> non >> > > > > concept >> > > > > > > for >> > > > > > > >> studying the lives and works of poets especially: Pushkin, >> and >> > > > many >> > > > > > > others. >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> I would say that a poet's life and work can not and should >> not >> > > be >> > > > > > > studied >> > > > > > > >> without this concept. >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> Completely impossible. >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> For instance, for Pushkin, a poem is a magical union of >> > sounds, >> > > > > > thoughts >> > > > > > > >> and feelings, which fits completely with intellect and >> affect, >> > > > > > cognition >> > > > > > > >> and emotion. >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> In case of some other poets, I would add "colours" because >> for >> > > > > > instance, >> > > > > > > >> Nazim Hikmet (who is said to see the world in colours) says >> > that >> > > > the >> > > > > > > >> closest poet to him is Eluard and there is a thesis on >> colour >> > in >> > > > the >> > > > > > > poems >> > > > > > > >> of Eluard and Hikmet. (May this mean Pushkin was more >> > sensitive >> > > to >> > > > > > > sounds >> > > > > > > >> than colours? An outstanding Turkish professor on Russian >> > > language >> > > > > and >> > > > > > > >> literature told me that there is not slightest deviation of >> > > rythm >> > > > in >> > > > > > > >> Pushkin whereas there is in all others) >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> Do we know any example of any such study in Russian >> > databases? A >> > > > > poet >> > > > > > > >> studied with "perezhivanie". >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> On 4 November 2017 at 14:02, Andy Blunden < >> ablunden@mira.net> >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >>> I would recommend Vasilyuk, but AN Leontyev should be read >> > > > > > > >>> as well: >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% >> > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Fedor% >> > > > 20Vasilyuk.pdf >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> Andy >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------ >> > > > > > > >>> Andy Blunden >> > > > > > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >> > > > > > > >>> On 4/11/2017 10:41 PM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >> > > > > > > >>>> Dear all, >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> For a study on Turkish poet, also a painter and >> playwright, >> > > > Nazim >> > > > > > > >>> Hikmet, >> > > > > > > >>>> whom learning seems to be heavily determined from life >> > > > experiences >> > > > > > at >> > > > > > > >>> each >> > > > > > > >>>> stage of his life, >> > > > > > > >>>> I am looking for a best theoretical approach in general >> on >> > > > > learning >> > > > > > > from >> > > > > > > >>>> life experiences, then more specifically for such great >> > poets, >> > > > > > > painters >> > > > > > > >>> and >> > > > > > > >>>> play writers. >> > > > > > > >>>> Just to give a closer idea, please look at the section >> below >> > > > from >> > > > > > his >> > > > > > > >>>> novel, Life's good, brother. >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> I appreciate highly any idea, proposal on such a >> theoretical >> > > > > > approach. >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> Thank you. >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> Ulvi >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> I sat down at the table in the H?tel de France in Batum. >> A >> > > table >> > > > > > with >> > > > > > > >>>> carved legs?not just the legs but the whole gilded oval >> > table >> > > > was >> > > > > > > >>> covered >> > > > > > > >>>> with intricate carvings. Rococo . . . In the seaside >> house >> > in >> > > > > > > ?sk?dar, a >> > > > > > > >>>> rococo >> > > > > > > >>>> table sits in the guestroom. Ro-co-co . . . The journey I >> > made >> > > > > from >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > >>>> Black >> > > > > > > >>>> Sea coast to Ankara, then from there to Bolu, the >> > > > thirty-five-day, >> > > > > > > >>>> thirty-fiveyear >> > > > > > > >>>> journey on foot to the town where I taught school?in >> short, >> > to >> > > > > make >> > > > > > a >> > > > > > > >>>> long story short, the encounter of a pasha?s >> descendant?more >> > > > > > > precisely, >> > > > > > > >>> a >> > > > > > > >>>> grandson?with Anatolia now rests on the rococo table in >> the >> > > > H?tel >> > > > > de >> > > > > > > >>>> France in Batum, spread out over the table like a >> tattered, >> > > > dirty, >> > > > > > > >>>> blood-stained >> > > > > > > >>>> block-print cloth. I look, and I want to cry. I look, >> and my >> > > > blood >> > > > > > > >>> rushes >> > > > > > > >>>> to my >> > > > > > > >>>> head in rage. I look, and I?m ashamed again. Of the >> house by >> > > the >> > > > > sea >> > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > >>>> ?sk?dar. Decide, son, I say to myself, decide. The >> decision >> > > was >> > > > > > made: >> > > > > > > >>> death >> > > > > > > >>>> before turning back. Wait, don?t rush, son. Let?s put the >> > > > > questions >> > > > > > on >> > > > > > > >>> this >> > > > > > > >>>> table, right next to Anatolia here. What can you >> sacrifice >> > for >> > > > > this >> > > > > > > >>> cause? >> > > > > > > >>>> What >> > > > > > > >>>> can you give? Everything. Everything I have. Your >> freedom? >> > > Yes! >> > > > > How >> > > > > > > >>>> many years can you rot in prison for this cause? All my >> > life, >> > > if >> > > > > > > >>> necessary! >> > > > > > > >>>> Yes, but you like women, fine dining, nice clothes. You >> > can?t >> > > > wait >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > >>>> travel, >> > > > > > > >>>> to see Europe, Asia, America, Africa. If you just leave >> > > Anatolia >> > > > > > here >> > > > > > > on >> > > > > > > >>>> this >> > > > > > > >>>> rococo table in Batum and go from Tbilisi to Kars and >> back >> > to >> > > > > Ankara >> > > > > > > >>> from >> > > > > > > >>>> there, in five or six years you?ll be a senator, a >> > > > minister?women, >> > > > > > > >>> wining >> > > > > > > >>>> and >> > > > > > > >>>> dining, art, the whole world. No! If necessary, I can >> spend >> > my >> > > > > whole >> > > > > > > >>> life in >> > > > > > > >>>> prison. Okay, but what about getting hanged, killed, or >> > > drowned >> > > > > like >> > > > > > > >>> Mustafa >> > > > > > > >>>> Suphi and his friends if I become a Communist?didn?t you >> ask >> > > > > > yourself >> > > > > > > >>> these >> > > > > > > >>>> questions in Batum? I did. I asked myself, Are you >> afraid of >> > > > being >> > > > > > > >>>> killed? I?m not afraid, I said. Just like that, without >> > > > thinking? >> > > > > > No. >> > > > > > > I >> > > > > > > >>>> first knew >> > > > > > > >>>> I was afraid, then I knew I wasn?t. Okay, are you ready >> to >> > be >> > > > > > > disabled, >> > > > > > > >>>> crippled, or made deaf for this cause? I asked. And TB, >> > heart >> > > > > > disease, >> > > > > > > >>>> blindness? Blindness? Blindness . . . Wait a minute?I >> hadn?t >> > > > > thought >> > > > > > > >>> about >> > > > > > > >>>> going blind for this cause. I got up. I shut my eyes >> tight >> > and >> > > > > > walked >> > > > > > > >>> around >> > > > > > > >>>> the room. Feeling the furniture with my hands, I walked >> > around >> > > > the >> > > > > > > room >> > > > > > > >>> in >> > > > > > > >>>> the darkness of my closed eyes. Twice I stumbled, but I >> > didn?t >> > > > > open >> > > > > > my >> > > > > > > >>> eyes. >> > > > > > > >>>> Then I stopped at the table. I opened my eyes. Yes, I can >> > > accept >> > > > > > > >>> blindness. >> > > > > > > >>>> Maybe I was a bit childish, a little comical. But this is >> > the >> > > > > truth. >> > > > > > > Not >> > > > > > > >>>> books or >> > > > > > > >>>> word-of-mouth propaganda or my social condition brought >> me >> > > > where I >> > > > > > am. >> > > > > > > >>>> Anatolia brought me where I am. The Anatolia I had seen >> only >> > > on >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > >>>> surface, from the outside. My heart brought me where I >> am. >> > > > That?s >> > > > > > how >> > > > > > > >>> it is >> > > > > > > >>>> . >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > -- >> > > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. >> > > > > > Associate Professor >> > > > > > Social Foundations of Education >> > > > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> > > > > > Georgia Southern University >> > > > > > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 >> > > > > > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural >> Studies,* >> > > > > vol.39, >> > > > > > 2017 >> > > > > > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social >> > Imagination: >> > > An >> > > > > > Intellectual Genealogy. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 >> > > > > > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academ >> ia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy >> > > > must >> > > > > be >> > > > > > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* >> John >> > > > > > Dewey-*Democracy >> > > > > > and Education*,1916, p. 139 >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > Beth Ferholt >> > > > Associate Professor >> > > > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > >> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Robert Lake Ed.D. >> > > Associate Professor >> > > Social Foundations of Education >> > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> > > Georgia Southern University >> > > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 >> > > Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,* >> > vol.39, >> > > 2017 >> > > Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: >> An >> > > Intellectual Genealogy. >> > > >> > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1 >> > > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy >> must >> > be >> > > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John >> > > Dewey-*Democracy >> > > and Education*,1916, p. 139 >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Beth Ferholt >> > Associate Professor >> > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > >> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> > >> > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > -- Beth Ferholt Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Sat Nov 18 11:48:18 2017 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 19:48:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> , Message-ID: Beth, i just reread the V. Woolf's 1924 essay. much appreciation. thanks! phillip From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sat Nov 18 16:29:25 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 02:29:25 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Radishchev and perezhivanie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It seems to me that it can be fruitful to read the Journey putting perezhivanie. in the center. And Journey can add a lot to the content of the concept. Perezhivanie can have a good place in Enlightenment processes of individuals and societies and also of intelligenstia as a collective being. For instance, serfdom and perezhivanie, how the social conditions in Russia influenced human soul and why such a soul emerged in Russia? It may be that perezhivanie is very much related with the human soul, with the depths of this latter. From bferholt@gmail.com Mon Nov 20 09:50:49 2017 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 12:50:49 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Great! I am thinking that it asks the same thing as one of the many things that The Man With a Shattered World asks: How can we see character / life experiences strung together. Neither the novelists nor the scientists have a good answer, yet. Beth On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 2:48 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > Beth, i just reread the V. Woolf's 1924 essay. much appreciation. > > > thanks! > > > phillip > > -- Beth Ferholt Associate Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From helenaworthen@gmail.com Mon Nov 20 10:01:40 2017 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:01:40 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Best possible theoretical approach on learning from life experiences In-Reply-To: References: <1fcd40ed-257a-c24a-fb49-e1636162e1e7@mira.net> <3a0f99cf-3f4f-0aa2-ca92-aaaa4283b51b@mira.net> Message-ID: Has anyone mentioned the whole tradition of PLAR ? Prior Learning Assessment and Recognition? https://www.georgebrown.ca/plar/ http://www.enhancementthemes.ac.uk/resources/toolkit/recognition-of-prior-learning-toolkit/resources/implementing-rpl-in-programmes At its best, the PLAR approach is theory-first; the ?learner? explores and uses learning theory to discover and then present his or her learning. At its worst, it is a way to credentialize experience and sell credentials. Did this come up in the recent discussion? Thanks ?H Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com Berkeley, CA 94707 Phone VN 0168 4628562 Blog US/ Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com skype: helena.worthen1 > On Nov 20, 2017, at 9:50 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > Great! I am thinking that it asks the same thing as one of the many things > that The Man With a Shattered World asks: How can we see character / life > experiences strung together. Neither the novelists nor the scientists have > a good answer, yet. Beth > > On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 2:48 PM, White, Phillip > wrote: > >> Beth, i just reread the V. Woolf's 1924 essay. much appreciation. >> >> >> thanks! >> >> >> phillip >> >> > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Associate Professor > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 From ablunden@mira.net Tue Nov 21 03:26:44 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 22:26:44 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Origins of Collective Decision Making Message-ID: <872cf3fb-b042-dc18-05b5-6df98dabe396@mira.net> My book, "The Origins of Collective Decision Making" is now available (at last!) in paperback at $28, from Amazon.com https://www.amazon.com/Origins-Collective-Decision-Making/dp/1608468046/ref=mt_paperback I believe that apart from the interest of the topic in its own right, for any politically aware person, xmca readers will find that it deeply relates to methodological questions which are well-known to those interested in Vygotsky and the Activity Theorists. Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm From carrie.lobman@gse.rutgers.edu Tue Nov 21 09:17:24 2017 From: carrie.lobman@gse.rutgers.edu (Carrie Lobman) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 17:17:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Cultural Historical SIG Message-ID: Dear XMCAers: I invite you to consider nominating yourself or a colleague for a position on the executive committee of the Cultural Historical SIG of AERA. We currently have several positions open for election. Over the past few years we have worked to further grow the SIG and we are very eager to engage some new leadership. SIG Chairperson: The president of the SIG is responsible for leading the executive committee, providing guidance and support to the program co-chairs in developing the SIG sessions for the annual meeting, developing the business meeting program, and for providing overall guidance to the SIG operations and relationships to other organizations within and outside AERA. SIG Program Co-Chair (2 positions): This important 2-Year job arranges review panels to read proposals, produces accepts and rejects, creates convention sessions, serves on the executive committee, attends the Business meeting at the AERA annual convention SIG Secretary/Treasurer: Along with the other elected officers serves on the SIG executive committee. The Secretary is responsible for the membership roles of the SIG and for helping to generate new membership. She is responsible for taking minutes at the business meeting and any meetings of the executive, and is responsible for monitoring the finances of the SIG. Please do consider nominating yourself or someone else to one or more of these important positions. Please submit the following information for each person being nominated by November 26th to carrie.lobman@gse.rutgers.edu: 1. Full name 2. Position you are submitting for 3. Institutional affiliation 4. Biographical statement no longer than 250 words stating relevant qualifications, expertise and interest Carrie Lobman, Ed.D. Chair, Department of Learning and Teaching Graduate School of Education Rutgers University www.gse.rutgers.edu www.eastsideinstitute.org www.performingtheworld.org From helenaworthen@gmail.com Tue Nov 21 09:21:11 2017 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 09:21:11 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Origins of Collective Decision Making In-Reply-To: <872cf3fb-b042-dc18-05b5-6df98dabe396@mira.net> References: <872cf3fb-b042-dc18-05b5-6df98dabe396@mira.net> Message-ID: <75910540-B896-4274-8BBB-877432006D43@gmail.com> I highly recommend Andy's book, not just becuase of the unique history that he tells, nor because of the way he traces the history of collective decision making backwards through plausibly linked organizational traditions, but because collective decision-making is a fundmanetal topic for a class if you are teaching any form of leadership or decision-making. We used it as the basis for such a class for undergraduates in Viet Nam who were studying union leadership - in a society where bottom-up leadership, whether in political activity or at the workplace, is a ?politically sensitive? topic. Combined with a couple of group exercises, it was so successful that we were actually surprised. H Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745 Blog US/ Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com skype: helena.worthen1 > On Nov 21, 2017, at 3:26 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > My book, "The Origins of Collective Decision Making" is now > available (at last!) in paperback at $28, from Amazon.com > > https://www.amazon.com/Origins-Collective-Decision-Making/dp/1608468046/ref=mt_paperback > > I believe that apart from the interest of the topic in its > own right, for any politically aware person, xmca readers > will find that it deeply relates to methodological questions > which are well-known to those interested in Vygotsky and the > Activity Theorists. > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue Nov 21 13:25:33 2017 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 21:25:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Andy's new book Message-ID: Hello xmca-ers Just to say that Andy's book [and many other interesting if not directly linked books] is on offer from $14 (USD not AUST.) from 'Haymarket Books' There are FaceBook posts on the 'Historical Materialism' members' page as well. Solidarity Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Tue Nov 21 14:14:47 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 22:14:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Origins of Collective Decision Making In-Reply-To: <75910540-B896-4274-8BBB-877432006D43@gmail.com> References: <872cf3fb-b042-dc18-05b5-6df98dabe396@mira.net>, <75910540-B896-4274-8BBB-877432006D43@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1511302487479.3782@iped.uio.no> This is great news, Andy, thanks for sharing. Helena's comments are really encouraging! Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Helena Worthen Sent: 21 November 2017 18:21 To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Origins of Collective Decision Making I highly recommend Andy's book, not just becuase of the unique history that he tells, nor because of the way he traces the history of collective decision making backwards through plausibly linked organizational traditions, but because collective decision-making is a fundmanetal topic for a class if you are teaching any form of leadership or decision-making. We used it as the basis for such a class for undergraduates in Viet Nam who were studying union leadership - in a society where bottom-up leadership, whether in political activity or at the workplace, is a ?politically sensitive? topic. Combined with a couple of group exercises, it was so successful that we were actually surprised. H Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745 Blog US/ Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com skype: helena.worthen1 > On Nov 21, 2017, at 3:26 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > My book, "The Origins of Collective Decision Making" is now > available (at last!) in paperback at $28, from Amazon.com > > https://www.amazon.com/Origins-Collective-Decision-Making/dp/1608468046/ref=mt_paperback > > I believe that apart from the interest of the topic in its > own right, for any politically aware person, xmca readers > will find that it deeply relates to methodological questions > which are well-known to those interested in Vygotsky and the > Activity Theorists. > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Nov 21 15:08:27 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 08:08:27 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Anatomy of the Ape Message-ID: Vygotsky cites, in the Historical Meaning of the Crisis of Psychology, Marx's rather cryptic remark in the Grundrisse about human anatomy holding the key to the anatomy of the ape. He uses this elsewhere (in his discussions of psychotechnics and pedology) and obviously finds it an important remark. More, he is perfectly aware of its non-teleological character: he knows that saying that humans developed from apes is not the same thing as saying that apes are fated to become humans. But how did Vygotsky know this? As far as I can figure out, the Grundrisse wasn't published until 1939, five years after Vygotsky's death. Did Vygotsky have privileged access? Or is there some other place where Marx says this that I don't know about? David Kellogg From ablunden@mira.net Tue Nov 21 15:19:07 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 10:19:07 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Anatomy of the Ape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The aphorism was reproduced in https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/index.htm , Appendix 1, published in German in Berlin in 1859, most of which is found verbatim in The Grundrisse. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 22/11/2017 10:08 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > Vygotsky cites, in the Historical Meaning of the Crisis of Psychology, > Marx's rather cryptic remark in the Grundrisse about human anatomy holding > the key to the anatomy of the ape. He uses this elsewhere (in his > discussions of psychotechnics and pedology) and obviously finds it an > important remark. More, he is perfectly aware of its non-teleological > character: he knows that saying that humans developed from apes is not the > same thing as saying that apes are fated to become humans. > > But how did Vygotsky know this? As far as I can figure out, the Grundrisse > wasn't published until 1939, five years after Vygotsky's death. Did > Vygotsky have privileged access? Or is there some other place where Marx > says this that I don't know about? > > David Kellogg > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Nov 21 15:47:28 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 08:47:28 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Anatomy of the Ape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Andy--that's the answer I was looking for. T. Carver argues that what Marx is really saying in this passage is that our appreciation of ancient Greek art is a kind of nostalgia for slave times. That's certainly true in some places (it explains Mussolini's neo-classicism, the appreciation of Classical culture in the slave-owning South, etc.). But nostalgia really is teleological: it is a longing for naivete, innocence, and temps perdu. I think this passage says something very different: any language contains its own history. That's all. It doesn't imply that a language is reducible to a history or a history can be elaborated into the whole language. Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida "contains" Homer, but that doesn't mean that it is Homer for grown-ups. David On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 8:19 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > The aphorism was reproduced in > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/ > critique-pol-economy/index.htm > , Appendix 1, published in German in Berlin in 1859, most of > which is found verbatim in The Grundrisse. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > On 22/11/2017 10:08 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Vygotsky cites, in the Historical Meaning of the Crisis of Psychology, > > Marx's rather cryptic remark in the Grundrisse about human anatomy > holding > > the key to the anatomy of the ape. He uses this elsewhere (in his > > discussions of psychotechnics and pedology) and obviously finds it an > > important remark. More, he is perfectly aware of its non-teleological > > character: he knows that saying that humans developed from apes is not > the > > same thing as saying that apes are fated to become humans. > > > > But how did Vygotsky know this? As far as I can figure out, the > Grundrisse > > wasn't published until 1939, five years after Vygotsky's death. Did > > Vygotsky have privileged access? Or is there some other place where Marx > > says this that I don't know about? > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Nov 21 15:59:52 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 10:59:52 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Anatomy of the Ape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9acab008-b9f5-bd11-4e0c-d851c26f48bc@mira.net> Well, my interpretation has long been the Hegelian one, David, and knowing that Marx studied the Philosophy of Right quite closely, I guess that was Marx's allusion, too. Much as I admire Terrell Carver, I cannot connect that to nostalgia at all. Funnily enough it was this aphorism that marked my very first glimpse of CHAT internal politics. It was around 1998 that I was recommended to read a book by Jan Valsiner by a colleague at the University of Melbourne, which I duly did. I can't remember which book , but I emailed Jan and challenged his negative comment on the "anatomy of the ape" aphorism. I spoke up in its defence, stupidly pointing out that it was a quote from Marx. How naive was I, thinking that pointing out that some claim was a quote from Marx in some way settled an argument. Vasliner simply replied: "Yes, Marx was wrong." That did not turn me off Vygotsky or Marx, but I did go in search of other introductory works, and I think it was then that I found Lois Holzman. Andy Andy Blunden http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 22/11/2017 10:47 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > Thanks, Andy--that's the answer I was looking for. T. > Carver argues that what Marx is really saying in this > passage is that our appreciation of ancient Greek art is a > kind of nostalgia for slave times. That's certainly true > in some places (it explains Mussolini's neo-classicism, > the appreciation of Classical culture in the slave-owning > South, etc.). But nostalgia really is teleological: it is > a longing for naivete, innocence, and temps perdu. I think > this passage says something very different: any language > contains its own history. That's all. It doesn't imply > that a language is reducible to a history or a history can > be elaborated into the whole language. Shakespeare's > Troilus and Cressida "contains" Homer, but that doesn't > mean that it is Homer for grown-ups. > > David > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 8:19 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > The aphorism was reproduced in > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/index.htm > > , Appendix 1, published in German in Berlin in 1859, > most of > which is found verbatim in The Grundrisse. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm > > On 22/11/2017 10:08 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Vygotsky cites, in the Historical Meaning of the > Crisis of Psychology, > > Marx's rather cryptic remark in the Grundrisse about > human anatomy holding > > the key to the anatomy of the ape. He uses this > elsewhere (in his > > discussions of psychotechnics and pedology) and > obviously finds it an > > important remark. More, he is perfectly aware of its > non-teleological > > character: he knows that saying that humans > developed from apes is not the > > same thing as saying that apes are fated to become > humans. > > > > But how did Vygotsky know this? As far as I can > figure out, the Grundrisse > > wasn't published until 1939, five years after > Vygotsky's death. Did > > Vygotsky have privileged access? Or is there some > other place where Marx > > says this that I don't know about? > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > From jussi.silvonen@uef.fi Wed Nov 22 03:01:54 2017 From: jussi.silvonen@uef.fi (Jussi Silvonen) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 11:01:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Anatomy of the Ape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David! The Introduction to Grundrisse was publishes already in 1903 in Die Neue Zeit, and reprinted in some collections in Russia in 20s or early 30s. Maybe in 'Marx Engels Archives'. You can find it as "Einleitung" in MEW 13. JusSi ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu k?ytt?j?n David Kellogg puolesta L?hetetty: 22. marraskuuta 2017 1:08:27 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Aihe: [Xmca-l] The Anatomy of the Ape Vygotsky cites, in the Historical Meaning of the Crisis of Psychology, Marx's rather cryptic remark in the Grundrisse about human anatomy holding the key to the anatomy of the ape. He uses this elsewhere (in his discussions of psychotechnics and pedology) and obviously finds it an important remark. More, he is perfectly aware of its non-teleological character: he knows that saying that humans developed from apes is not the same thing as saying that apes are fated to become humans. But how did Vygotsky know this? As far as I can figure out, the Grundrisse wasn't published until 1939, five years after Vygotsky's death. Did Vygotsky have privileged access? Or is there some other place where Marx says this that I don't know about? David Kellogg From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Nov 22 14:44:17 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 07:44:17 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Anatomy of the Ape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Jussi. In the "History of the Crisis" Vygotsky uses this aphorism to justify looking for the origins of Shakespeare in Bunin, for the origins of La Fontaine in Shakespeare, etc. But in "Psychology of Art", he entirely leaves out classical art; Aesop appears in his Renaissance and not his Classical form. Classical art is really the whole point of the remark in the Grundrisse. Marx does seem to suggest that there is something especially special about those Greeks. They were "normal children". Presumably he means the chlidhood of our own art, compared to the "precocious" children of African art or the "backward" children of Chinese art. I guess this is a little like his "Asiatic mode of production", which is really just a way of warning us not to overgeneralize our own case through time or space: feudalism is no more a "natural" or "universal" state of affairs than capitalism. David Kellogg On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 8:01 PM, Jussi Silvonen wrote: > Hi David! > > > The Introduction to Grundrisse was publishes already in 1903 in Die Neue > Zeit, and reprinted in some collections in Russia in 20s or early 30s. > Maybe in 'Marx Engels Archives'. You can find it as "Einleitung" in MEW 13. > > > JusSi > > ________________________________ > L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu> k?ytt?j?n David Kellogg puolesta > L?hetetty: 22. marraskuuta 2017 1:08:27 > Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] The Anatomy of the Ape > > Vygotsky cites, in the Historical Meaning of the Crisis of Psychology, > Marx's rather cryptic remark in the Grundrisse about human anatomy holding > the key to the anatomy of the ape. He uses this elsewhere (in his > discussions of psychotechnics and pedology) and obviously finds it an > important remark. More, he is perfectly aware of its non-teleological > character: he knows that saying that humans developed from apes is not the > same thing as saying that apes are fated to become humans. > > But how did Vygotsky know this? As far as I can figure out, the Grundrisse > wasn't published until 1939, five years after Vygotsky's death. Did > Vygotsky have privileged access? Or is there some other place where Marx > says this that I don't know about? > > David Kellogg > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Nov 22 15:43:48 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 15:43:48 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Solving an Ancient Enigma in the Andes In-Reply-To: <80f6cf678900daf984bf763b7.46fc3457e6.20171110153350.bbb20cb0f5.060c5757@mail32.sea61.rsgsv.net> References: <80f6cf678900daf984bf763b7.46fc3457e6.20171110153350.bbb20cb0f5.060c5757@mail32.sea61.rsgsv.net> Message-ID: Speaking of Vygotsky, or was it Marx? A Quipu none less. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: SAPIENS Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 7:35 AM Subject: Solving an Ancient Enigma in the Andes To: lchcmike@gmail.com ... and how trees can help archaeologists uncover history. View this email in your browser "Discovering a narrative khipu that can be deciphered remains one of the holy grails of South American anthropology." *Unraveling an Ancient Code Written in Strings* Andean cultures developed a mysterious form of writing that has never been deciphered. Scientists are teaming with locals to solve the enigma. Share Tweet *How Archaeologists Uncover History With Trees* Tree-ring dating helps answer questions about pre-Columbian life in the Mesa Verde region. Share Tweet *Everything human, right at your fingertips* *Archaeology / Body / Culture / Evolution / Language / Technology * [image: Facebook] [image: Twitter] *Copyright ? 2017 SAPIENS, All rights reserved.* You are receiving this email because you asked to be notified of new SAPIENS content. *Our mailing address is:* SAPIENS The Wenner-Gren Foundation for Anthropological Research 470 Park Avenue South , 8N New York, NY 10016, USA Add us to your address book This email was sent via MailChimp. Read their Privacy Policy. Want to change how you receive these emails? You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Nov 23 00:30:43 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 08:30:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Solving an Ancient Enigma in the Andes In-Reply-To: References: <80f6cf678900daf984bf763b7.46fc3457e6.20171110153350.bbb20cb0f5.060c5757@mail32.sea61.rsgsv.net>, Message-ID: <1511425845187.16682@iped.uio.no> Fascinating, thanks for sharing. But also thanks for the source, I had no idea of this Sapiens portal, which looks super interesting, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: 23 November 2017 00:43 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Solving an Ancient Enigma in the Andes Speaking of Vygotsky, or was it Marx? A Quipu none less. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: SAPIENS Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 7:35 AM Subject: Solving an Ancient Enigma in the Andes To: lchcmike@gmail.com ... and how trees can help archaeologists uncover history. View this email in your browser "Discovering a narrative khipu that can be deciphered remains one of the holy grails of South American anthropology." *Unraveling an Ancient Code Written in Strings* Andean cultures developed a mysterious form of writing that has never been deciphered. Scientists are teaming with locals to solve the enigma. Share Tweet *How Archaeologists Uncover History With Trees* Tree-ring dating helps answer questions about pre-Columbian life in the Mesa Verde region. Share Tweet *Everything human, right at your fingertips* *Archaeology / Body / Culture / Evolution / Language / Technology * [image: Facebook] [image: Twitter] *Copyright ? 2017 SAPIENS, All rights reserved.* You are receiving this email because you asked to be notified of new SAPIENS content. *Our mailing address is:* SAPIENS The Wenner-Gren Foundation for Anthropological Research 470 Park Avenue South , 8N New York, NY 10016, USA Add us to your address book This email was sent via MailChimp. Read their Privacy Policy. Want to change how you receive these emails? You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Thu Nov 23 06:57:22 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 16:57:22 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?Yap=C4=B1_Kredi_Publications=27_anti-communist_censors?= =?utf-8?q?hip_on_N=C3=A2z=C4=B1m_Hikmet=27s_novel?= Message-ID: http://news.sol.org.tr/yapi-kredi-publications-anti-communist-censorship-nazim-hikmets-novel-173564 From alexander.surmava@yahoo.com Sat Nov 25 02:31:57 2017 From: alexander.surmava@yahoo.com (Alexander Surmava) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 10:31:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?TsOiesSxbSBIaWttZXQ=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Ulvi ??il Perhaps this will seem interesting to you.Ewald Ilyenkov was friends with N?z?m Hikmet.There is a photograph of N?z?m Hikmet with his inscription Ilyenkov. ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? Yes, and they are buried in the same cemetery not far from each other. | | | ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?... | | | Sasha ??: Ulvi ??il ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ??????????: ???????, 23 ?????? 2017 17:58 ????: [Xmca-l] Yap? Kredi Publications' anti-communist censorship on N?z?m Hikmet's novel http://news.sol.org.tr/yapi-kredi-publications-anti-communist-censorship-nazim-hikmets-novel-173564 From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Nov 25 03:43:34 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 20:43:34 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie Without Experience Message-ID: Near the end of Chapter Four of "Psychology of the Adolescent", Vygotsky is giving a historical critique of theories of the adolescent. It's a theoretical jungle--and a factual desert. He starts out with biological theories that blame everything on puberty. Then he brings in the opposite, which he calls "cultural psychology". It's not what we call cultural psychology today but rather Nazi psychology, represented by Spranger. Of Spranger, Vygotsky writes: ? ???? ??? ????????? ????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???????????, ? ??? ??? ? ??????? ????????????? ???????? ???????????? ?? ???? ????? ???????????, ?? ??? ?????????? ??????????, ??? ???????? ???????, ??? ????., ??????? ??????? ?????, ?? ????? ???????? ????????? ? ???????????????? ???????? ?????????. ?? ??? ??????, ? ??? ???? ? ?????????????? ???????????? ? ????????? ??????????? ???????? ??????????? ??????????? ? ????????. ??? ?????????? ????? ? ????? ????????? ??????????? ?????????? ??????????? ????????? ? ???????? ?????. "In the world of his (Spranger's--DK) relations, teleology but not causality reigns, and since in the domain of organic development there governs in practice the law of causality, he (Spranger--DK) must assert that corporeal phenomena, for example, the functioning of the sex glands, have no relation whatsoever with the psychological development of the adolescent. In his opinion, during these years, and approximately concurrent with the corporeal changes, sexual ??????????? ("over-livings"--e.g. thoughts, fantasies, romances about the girl who brushed against you on the way to the lunchroom, or the glance that boy gave you in the library--DK) enter into consciousness. These completely new and very intense ??????????? ("over-livings") bring abojt a complete overthrow in spiritual life." It's clear that Spranger is not talking about actual sexual experience. In fact, the "overthrow" of spiritual life he gives is...well, spiritual. It's the Sturm und Drang of German romanticism, the discovery of the ego, spiritual awakening, and newfound awareness of the mission of the German nation in the history of the Zeitgeist. There is no obvious way to link this with discovery of pimples, the emergence of pubic hair, and newfound awareness of body odor. So here we have an example of ???????????, normally translated as "lived experience", WITHOUT lived experience--with nothing but mulling over some ostensibly non-sexual experience. Of course, Vygotsky is going to CRITICIZE this: he will point out that love comes to the adolescent not as an idea but as a flesh and blook person. But I don't think Vygotsky really means sexual experience either when he says "??????????? ???????????", David Kellogg From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Nov 25 14:38:49 2017 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 22:38:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi fellow Xmcats, Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the future of US universities these days. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. There is also mention of a Pew study here: http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) And also mentioned: http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms of the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock wears off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. Just I thought I would pass this on. Kind regards, Annalisa From vygotsky@unm.edu Sat Nov 25 22:59:09 2017 From: vygotsky@unm.edu (Vera John-Steiner) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 23:59:09 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: , <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> Annalisa, I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very poorly, I am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I am particularly tired. He has recovered well. I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. Do let me know what is new with you. Love, Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" Hi fellow Xmcats, Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the future of US universities these days. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. There is also mention of a Pew study here: http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) And also mentioned: http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms of the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock wears off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. Just I thought I would pass this on. Kind regards, Annalisa From jussi.silvonen@uef.fi Sun Nov 26 01:46:25 2017 From: jussi.silvonen@uef.fi (Jussi Silvonen) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 09:46:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie Without Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, do you really think, Spranger was a Nazi psychologist? JusSi ________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu k?ytt?j?n David Kellogg puolesta L?hetetty: 25. marraskuuta 2017 13:43 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Aihe: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie Without Experience Then he brings in the opposite, which he calls "cultural psychology". It's not what we call cultural psychology today but rather Nazi psychology, represented by Spranger. Of Spranger, Vygotsky writes: David Kellogg From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sun Nov 26 03:57:26 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 13:57:26 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?TsOiesSxbSBIaWttZXQ=?= In-Reply-To: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Sasha This is a great information! We, as CPT, published ?lyenkov's book. How can I reach this photograph please? Zoya, Kosmodemyanskaya, for whom Nazim wrote a long poem in the prison in 1941, is there also, in Novodeyvici. Thank you! Ulvi On 25 November 2017 at 12:31, Alexander Surmava wrote: > Dear Ulvi ??il > Perhaps this will seem interesting to you.Ewald Ilyenkov was friends with > N?z?m Hikmet.There is a photograph of N?z?m Hikmet with his inscription > Ilyenkov. > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > Yes, and they are buried in the same cemetery not far from each other. > > > | > | | > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? > ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?... | | > > | > > Sasha > > ??: Ulvi ??il > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > ??????????: ???????, 23 ?????? 2017 17:58 > ????: [Xmca-l] Yap? Kredi Publications' anti-communist censorship on > N?z?m Hikmet's novel > > http://news.sol.org.tr/yapi-kredi-publications-anti- > communist-censorship-nazim-hikmets-novel-173564 > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sun Nov 26 04:21:12 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 12:21:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: , <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <1511698872557.1311@iped.uio.no> Thanks for passing this on, Annalisa. The text from the Washington post got to put me in a double bind situation: on the one hand, I felt glad that someone would fear that universities were actually teaching people "to become activists and basically go out in the world and cause trouble", which would seem like a great success to me, a promising and necessary one. On the other hand, when I read that those who hold that view also criticise universities for having become "elitist, politically correct institutions that often fail to provide practical skills for the job market," that universities are essentially disconnected from the local communities and their needs, I can't but see some true in that. The situation gets worse when I realise that, in fact, I am very uncertain about how far have come universities in helping people becoming 'activists', at least here on the other side of the Atlantic... Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 25 November 2017 23:38 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" Hi fellow Xmcats, Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the future of US universities these days. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. There is also mention of a Pew study here: http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) And also mentioned: http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms of the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock wears off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. Just I thought I would pass this on. Kind regards, Annalisa From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sun Nov 26 04:23:47 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 12:23:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> References: , <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> , <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> Message-ID: <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a message is also always a joy. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Vera John-Steiner Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" Annalisa, I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very poorly, I am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I am particularly tired. He has recovered well. I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. Do let me know what is new with you. Love, Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" Hi fellow Xmcats, Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the future of US universities these days. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. There is also mention of a Pew study here: http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) And also mentioned: http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms of the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock wears off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. Just I thought I would pass this on. Kind regards, Annalisa From alexander.surmava@yahoo.com Sun Nov 26 04:24:01 2017 From: alexander.surmava@yahoo.com (Alexander Surmava) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 12:24:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgTsOiesSxbSBIaWttZXQ=?= In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <969649002.4398549.1511699041112@mail.yahoo.com> ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ?????? | | | ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?... | | | ??: Ulvi ??il ????: Alexander Surmava ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ??????????: ???????????, 26 ?????? 2017 14:57 ????: Re: [Xmca-l] N?z?m Hikmet Dear Sasha This is a great information! We, as CPT, published ?lyenkov's book. How can I reach this photograph please? Zoya, Kosmodemyanskaya, for whom Nazim wrote a long poem in the prison in 1941, is there also, in Novodeyvici. Thank you! Ulvi On 25 November 2017 at 12:31, Alexander Surmava wrote: Dear Ulvi ??il Perhaps this will seem interesting to you.Ewald Ilyenkov was friends with N?z?m Hikmet.There is a photograph of N?z?m Hikmet with his inscription Ilyenkov. ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? Yes, and they are buried in the same cemetery not far from each other. | |? ?| ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?...? |? | ? | ?Sasha ? ? ? ??: Ulvi ??il ?????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ???????????: ???????, 23 ?????? 2017 17:58 ?????: [Xmca-l] Yap? Kredi Publications' anti-communist censorship on N?z?m Hikmet's novel http://news.sol.org.tr/yapi- kredi-publications-anti- communist-censorship-nazim- hikmets-novel-173564 From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sun Nov 26 04:28:51 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 12:28:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgTsOiesSxbSBIaWttZXQ=?= In-Reply-To: <969649002.4398549.1511699041112@mail.yahoo.com> References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> , <969649002.4398549.1511699041112@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1511699331278.94153@iped.uio.no> Hi Sasha, were you trying to share a link? Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Alexander Surmava Sent: 26 November 2017 13:24 To: Ulvi ??il; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] ???: N?z?m Hikmet ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? | | | ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?... | | | ??: Ulvi ??il ????: Alexander Surmava ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ??????????: ???????????, 26 ?????? 2017 14:57 ????: Re: [Xmca-l] N?z?m Hikmet Dear Sasha This is a great information! We, as CPT, published ?lyenkov's book. How can I reach this photograph please? Zoya, Kosmodemyanskaya, for whom Nazim wrote a long poem in the prison in 1941, is there also, in Novodeyvici. Thank you! Ulvi On 25 November 2017 at 12:31, Alexander Surmava wrote: Dear Ulvi ??il Perhaps this will seem interesting to you.Ewald Ilyenkov was friends with N?z?m Hikmet.There is a photograph of N?z?m Hikmet with his inscription Ilyenkov. ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? Yes, and they are buried in the same cemetery not far from each other. | |? | ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?... |? | | Sasha ??: Ulvi ??il ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ??????????: ???????, 23 ?????? 2017 17:58 ????: [Xmca-l] Yap? Kredi Publications' anti-communist censorship on N?z?m Hikmet's novel http://news.sol.org.tr/yapi- kredi-publications-anti- communist-censorship-nazim- hikmets-novel-173564 From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sun Nov 26 04:33:18 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:33:18 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgTsOiesSxbSBIaWttZXQ=?= In-Reply-To: <969649002.4398549.1511699041112@mail.yahoo.com> References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <969649002.4398549.1511699041112@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you so much. In Turkish it reads To honest, true conmunist To comrade Ewald 26 Kas 2017 15:24 tarihinde "Alexander Surmava" yazd?: > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > > > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? > ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?... > > > > > ------------------------------ > *??:* Ulvi ??il > *????:* Alexander Surmava ; "eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity" > *??????????:* ???????????, 26 ?????? 2017 14:57 > *????:* Re: [Xmca-l] N?z?m Hikmet > > Dear Sasha > > This is a great information! > > We, as CPT, published ?lyenkov's book. > > How can I reach this photograph please? > > Zoya, Kosmodemyanskaya, for whom Nazim wrote a long poem in the prison in > 1941, is there also, in Novodeyvici. > > Thank you! > > Ulvi > > > > On 25 November 2017 at 12:31, Alexander Surmava < > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Dear Ulvi ??il > Perhaps this will seem interesting to you.Ewald Ilyenkov was friends with > N?z?m Hikmet.There is a photograph of N?z?m Hikmet with his inscription > Ilyenkov. > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > Yes, and they are buried in the same cemetery not far from each other. > > > | > | | > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? > ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?... | | > > | > > Sasha > > ??: Ulvi ??il > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > ??????????: ???????, 23 ?????? 2017 17:58 > ????: [Xmca-l] Yap? Kredi Publications' anti-communist censorship on > N?z?m Hikmet's novel > > http://news.sol.org.tr/yapi- kredi-publications-anti- > communist-censorship-nazim- hikmets-novel-173564 > > > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Sun Nov 26 04:37:05 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 12:37:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> References: , <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> , <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: I second that emotion! -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:24 AM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; vygotsky@unm.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a message is also always a joy. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Vera John-Steiner Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" Annalisa, I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very poorly, I am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I am particularly tired. He has recovered well. I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. Do let me know what is new with you. Love, Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" Hi fellow Xmcats, Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the future of US universities these days. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. There is also mention of a Pew study here: http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) And also mentioned: http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms of the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock wears off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. Just I thought I would pass this on. Kind regards, Annalisa From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sun Nov 26 04:38:06 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 12:38:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgTsOiesSxbSBIaWttZXQ=?= In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <969649002.4398549.1511699041112@mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <1511699886009.76061@iped.uio.no> For some reason the link became visible only in Ulvi's response. I am sharing it again here, in case others had the same problem. Thank you sharing, Sasha http://iljenkov.ru/k-biografii/semia/fotografii-semia http://iljenkov.ru/k-biografii/semia/fotografii-semia ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Ulvi ??il Sent: 26 November 2017 13:33 To: Alexander Surmava Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ???: N?z?m Hikmet Thank you so much. In Turkish it reads To honest, true conmunist To comrade Ewald 26 Kas 2017 15:24 tarihinde "Alexander Surmava" yazd?: > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > > > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? > ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?... > > > > > ------------------------------ > *??:* Ulvi ??il > *????:* Alexander Surmava ; "eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity" > *??????????:* ???????????, 26 ?????? 2017 14:57 > *????:* Re: [Xmca-l] N?z?m Hikmet > > Dear Sasha > > This is a great information! > > We, as CPT, published ?lyenkov's book. > > How can I reach this photograph please? > > Zoya, Kosmodemyanskaya, for whom Nazim wrote a long poem in the prison in > 1941, is there also, in Novodeyvici. > > Thank you! > > Ulvi > > > > On 25 November 2017 at 12:31, Alexander Surmava < > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Dear Ulvi ??il > Perhaps this will seem interesting to you.Ewald Ilyenkov was friends with > N?z?m Hikmet.There is a photograph of N?z?m Hikmet with his inscription > Ilyenkov. > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > Yes, and they are buried in the same cemetery not far from each other. > > > | > | | > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? > ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?... | | > > | > > Sasha > > ??: Ulvi ??il > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > ??????????: ???????, 23 ?????? 2017 17:58 > ????: [Xmca-l] Yap? Kredi Publications' anti-communist censorship on > N?z?m Hikmet's novel > > http://news.sol.org.tr/yapi- kredi-publications-anti- > communist-censorship-nazim- hikmets-novel-173564 > > > > > > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sun Nov 26 04:46:23 2017 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:46:23 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiBOw6J6xLFtIEhpa21ldA==?= In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <969649002.4398549.1511699041112@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In Portuguese you have the novel with translation from Saramago from French uncensored. Romanticos. 26 Kas 2017 15:34 tarihinde "Ulvi ??il" yazd?: > Thank you so much. > > In Turkish it reads > > To honest, true conmunist > > To comrade Ewald > > 26 Kas 2017 15:24 tarihinde "Alexander Surmava" < > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> > yazd?: > > > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > > > > > > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > > ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? > > ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?... > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *??:* Ulvi ??il > > *????:* Alexander Surmava ; "eXtended Mind, > > Culture, Activity" > > *??????????:* ???????????, 26 ?????? 2017 14:57 > > *????:* Re: [Xmca-l] N?z?m Hikmet > > > > Dear Sasha > > > > This is a great information! > > > > We, as CPT, published ?lyenkov's book. > > > > How can I reach this photograph please? > > > > Zoya, Kosmodemyanskaya, for whom Nazim wrote a long poem in the prison in > > 1941, is there also, in Novodeyvici. > > > > Thank you! > > > > Ulvi > > > > > > > > On 25 November 2017 at 12:31, Alexander Surmava < > > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Dear Ulvi ??il > > Perhaps this will seem interesting to you.Ewald Ilyenkov was friends with > > N?z?m Hikmet.There is a photograph of N?z?m Hikmet with his inscription > > Ilyenkov. > > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > > Yes, and they are buried in the same cemetery not far from each other. > > > > > > | > > | | > > ?????????? c???? ??????? ????????? / ????? / ?????? ????????. ????? > > ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???? ????? > > ?????, ???? ???? ????? / ?????? ????????. ?... | | > > > > | > > > > Sasha > > > > ??: Ulvi ??il > > ????: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > ??????????: ???????, 23 ?????? 2017 17:58 > > ????: [Xmca-l] Yap? Kredi Publications' anti-communist censorship on > > N?z?m Hikmet's novel > > > > http://news.sol.org.tr/yapi- kredi-publications-anti- > > communist-censorship-nazim- hikmets-novel-173564 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Nov 26 08:07:53 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 16:07:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: A LOT of people are thinking of you Vera. Generations of scholars are in your debt, and Working to continue along the paths you have us to. Mike On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 4:38 AM Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I second that emotion! > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:24 AM > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; > vygotsky@unm.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and > junky degrees" > > Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a message is > also always a joy. > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Vera John-Steiner > Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies > and junky degrees" > > Annalisa, > > I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very poorly, I > am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I am > particularly tired. He has recovered well. > > I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. > > Do let me know what is new with you. > > Love, > > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and > junky degrees" > > Hi fellow Xmcats, > > > Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. > > > Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the > future of US universities these days. > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ > < > http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > > > < > http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > > > > > < > http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > > > > What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must > everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. > > > There is also mention of a Pew study here: > > > http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf > > > (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, > given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) > > > And also mentioned: > http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx > > > If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms of > the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock wears > off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. > > > Just I thought I would pass this on. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Sun Nov 26 08:34:16 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 16:34:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: This is probably a good time to remind everyone of this lovely tribute, which includes essays from many in the xmca community: R. Lake & C. Connery (Eds.), (2013) Constructing a community of thought: Letters on the scholarship, teaching and mentoring of Vera John-Steiner. New York: Peter Lang. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 10:08 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" A LOT of people are thinking of you Vera. Generations of scholars are in your debt, and Working to continue along the paths you have us to. Mike On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 4:38 AM Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I second that emotion! > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:24 AM > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; > vygotsky@unm.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies > and junky degrees" > > Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a > message is also always a joy. > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Vera John-Steiner > > Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies > and junky degrees" > > Annalisa, > > I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very > poorly, I am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just > visited, and I am particularly tired. He has recovered well. > > I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. > > Do let me know what is new with you. > > Love, > > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and > junky degrees" > > Hi fellow Xmcats, > > > Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. > > > Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the > future of US universities these days. > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabie > s-and-junky-degrees/ > < > http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabie > s-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3A > homepage%2Fstor > > > < > http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabie > s-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3A > homepage%2Fstor > > > > > < > http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabie > s-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3A > homepage%2Fstor > > > > What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why > must everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. > > > There is also mention of a Pew study here: > > > http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/11101 > 505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf > > > (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, > given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) > > > And also mentioned: > http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx > > > If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms > of the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the > shock wears off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. > > > Just I thought I would pass this on. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Nov 26 09:20:25 2017 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 10:20:25 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <24B5BBC1-DF10-45EB-BED7-C69BDAD7E348@gmail.com> Gente, Thanks to Peter for citing Letters to Vera, especially to Robert and Cathrene for editing the book, to which I contributed a little piece. I am so grateful to Vera for being mentor and friend to my wife Judy and me, starting over 35 years ago. I came to New Mexico 40 years ago to work on the Navajo Reservation and found that Vera was there before me. I enrolled a few years later in the Educational Linguistic doctoral program at the University of New Mexico, founded by Vera and Bernard Spolsky. I have benefited in so many ways from Vera?s ground breaking work. Of course, there are many, many stories out there of grateful people like myself who are Vera?s legacy. Vera, you embody creative collaboration. Henry > On Nov 26, 2017, at 9:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > This is probably a good time to remind everyone of this lovely tribute, which includes essays from many in the xmca community: > R. Lake & C. Connery (Eds.), (2013) Constructing a community of thought: Letters on the scholarship, teaching and mentoring of Vera John-Steiner. New York: Peter Lang. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 10:08 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" > > A LOT of people are thinking of you Vera. Generations of scholars are in your debt, and Working to continue along the paths you have us to. > > Mike > > On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 4:38 AM Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >> I second that emotion! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil >> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:24 AM >> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; >> vygotsky@unm.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies >> and junky degrees" >> >> Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a >> message is also always a joy. >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Vera John-Steiner >> >> Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 >> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies >> and junky degrees" >> >> Annalisa, >> >> I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very >> poorly, I am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just >> visited, and I am particularly tired. He has recovered well. >> >> I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. >> >> Do let me know what is new with you. >> >> Love, >> >> Vera >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar >> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and >> junky degrees" >> >> Hi fellow Xmcats, >> >> >> Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. >> >> >> Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the >> future of US universities these days. >> >> >> >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabie >> s-and-junky-degrees/ >> < >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabie >> s-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3A >> homepage%2Fstor >>> >> < >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabie >> s-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3A >> homepage%2Fstor >>> >> >> >> < >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabie >> s-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3A >> homepage%2Fstor >>> >> >> What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why >> must everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. >> >> >> There is also mention of a Pew study here: >> >> >> http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/11101 >> 505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf >> >> >> (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, >> given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) >> >> >> And also mentioned: >> http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx >> >> >> If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms >> of the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the >> shock wears off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. >> >> >> Just I thought I would pass this on. >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Nov 26 13:08:04 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 06:08:04 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie Without Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, one of the reasons why I often think of Vera John-Steiner (whose son introduced me to Marxism, whose own work introduced me to Vygotsky) is that she is a living link between the current struggle between the kinds of anti-intellectual white nationalism that Annalisa's link shows us and their Nazi forebears. Spranger was one. Politically, he was a member of one of the conservative aristocratic parties in the Nazi coalition. But he drafted the University Professors Declaration of loyalty to Hitler and signed it. So Vygotsky denounces him as a Nazi: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/reader/p327.pdf See p. 327-328. Last winter (summer) in Australia I forced myself to read his "Types of Man"--Spranger's argument is that we need to ignore the biological fact of being one species and concentrate on the different "psychic" species that exist. He says that what he has to say is true of the healthy, strong, German adolescent, and to a lesser extent of American and British adolescents, still less of Russians and Slavic adolescents, and of course not at all of Jews. There is some evidence that he turned against Hitler--he resigned his post when Hitler took power (but took it up again with a year). In his private letters he finds the Nazis anti-intellectual and plebeian. In the last part of the war, he went to Japan and then returned; it has been said that he was mixed up in a plot to kill Hitler, and that the Japanese ambassador saved him from hanging. So I guess that he was a disgruntled Nazi. But when I read his stuff, I can't tell the difference between him and Kroh, or Jaensch, or Volkelt--it's all Nazi psych to me. David Kellogg On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 6:46 PM, Jussi Silvonen wrote: > David, > > > do you really think, Spranger was a Nazi psychologist? > > JusSi > ________________________________ > L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu> k?ytt?j?n David Kellogg puolesta > L?hetetty: 25. marraskuuta 2017 13:43 > Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie Without Experience > > Then he brings in the opposite, > which he calls "cultural psychology". It's not what we call cultural > psychology today but rather Nazi psychology, represented by Spranger. Of > Spranger, Vygotsky writes: > > > David Kellogg > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Nov 26 13:09:28 2017 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 21:09:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The wonders of technology is nothing without us. In-Reply-To: <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> References: , <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> , <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> Message-ID: Hi Xmcats, It was a surprise to hear from Vera via her post, but she is well-known to bring the intimate into larger circles in so many other ways than she has recently on this list. Vera, you are always surprising, but it is always all ways. I was glad to hear from you, given the path you are on, which we all will one day travel. Every one of us. I walk with you a step at a time in solidarity always all ways into the future. It used to be that at times like this we might learn about events asynchronously, out of context, disconnected. The phone might have stopped ringing before I picked it up. I might be left wondering what I might have said if I had the chance, if I were near enough to touch you. Here we are on this list, open to the world, if the world is looking, able to discuss our education in realtime, one post at a time, in a gossamer circle. What a wonder. What a wonder. It certainly is my moment for gratitude that this list exists and that we can be in touch despite the great distances. So what I want to say, now that I have been given this chance, is to let you know that I am thinking of you too and the great friendship and gentle kindness I have had the honor to receive from you (As many others here have noted too). Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Vera John-Steiner Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 11:59 PM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" Annalisa, I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very poorly, I am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I am particularly tired. He has recovered well. I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. Do let me know what is new with you. Love, Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" Hi fellow Xmcats, Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the future of US universities these days. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. There is also mention of a Pew study here: http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) And also mentioned: http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms of the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock wears off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. Just I thought I would pass this on. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Nov 26 14:30:00 2017 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 22:30:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> References: , <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> , <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu>, <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Hi Alfredo, The person they interviewed in the article was someone who had gone to war, which is, after all, a legitimized and normalized manner "to go out in the world and cause trouble" in many traditional cultures, though historically not all. War is a way to prove oneself, but to prove oneself to whom and for what reason? Who proves oneself with a war? The part about elitism stings both directions. That word can be thrown around so many ways, but when I think of the meaning of the word "elite" I think of exclusion, rather than of, say, philosopher kings. Its meaning is closer to the words "not of my tribe." Couldn't the phrase "politically correct" be just another way to say "democracy" or "inclusion"? "PC" is such a relative acronym that is seems to have lost its original meaning, if there was one. It is the Rattlesnake Shooter who is bellyaching, isn't it? "I'm afraid I'm not important to anyone anymore. So I think I'll shoot a rattlesnake, because I can." Rewind. The historical US narrative goes something like this, give or take a few important events: Native American peoples were living here doing their thing, and quite happily enough. Europeans cross over an ocean or two and rape and pillage lands, peoples, and cultures along the way. This is called "progress" or "civilization." Nativized Europeans call themselves "Americans" because of the locii of their mothers' wombs, all the while excluding the true native peoples. The upstarts start a revolution so indentured servants can have non-dentured servants, and send the landed gentry packing back to their island and their king. That king was such an elitist, wasn't he? Meanwhile back at the plantation, the color of skin is the best way to brand a person like a cow, and from that point on race matters ever more than it once did, in matters of private property and of law. It's called grazing rights for cowboys. Genealogy for weaklings who actually want to live like a king. This is the first significant barrier of exclusion as made by the original elites of this nation, who were male and landowners, but perhaps did not call themselves White Nationalists at that point in time. What did white mean, and what was a nationalist, back then, anyway? Fast forward through pioneer trails west, slaughtered buffalo, land grants, revolving pistols, railroads, shotguns, and a civil war, carpetbaggers, a gold rush, 50 states, and Jim Crow, a few world wars for good measure. and...who was it again who started this elitism??? My head is dizzy from all the historical distractions. Now, the marginalized (people living in the margins in relation to those in the center) want to empower themselves with the written word and the spoken word, and to be able to participate with words, democratically. Because that's what was written down at the beginning: "We the people" just want to use words, and not bullets or other weapons of mass destruction. It's a declaration of independence from a belief in colonialism. We believe in words not markets as our unit for analysis. But those who want to live by the sword and wage any old war, like a bully on the playground, don't understand what a play of words really means, It's just Greek to them, or an Elizabethan balding guy in tights. Dead poets who just don't make economic sense. Rattlesnake Shooters don't understand what life really means when life is so disposable, so meaningless. And so they go on seeking the meaning of life in less elegant ways than what might be read about in wilderness survival manuals. For those who want to use exclusively words to craft a future, our future, a future that includes us, to prefigure what might be with a vibrant and colorful imagination, who want to speak many languages, and who can appreciate many cultures, and tirelessly strive for world peace, rather than uphold a virtually nonexistent monoculture of a shrinking gene pool (that really never was from here, was never glorious, but emerged from the ooze shameful and shamelessly at the same time), we who value words, not war cries, are the ones told, "You Are Elitist." The irony. The irony. Kind regards, Annalisa On 11/26/17 4:21 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Thanks for passing this on, Annalisa. The text from the Washington post got to put me in a double bind situation: on the one hand, I felt glad that someone would fear that universities were actually teaching people "to become activists and basically go out in the world and cause trouble", which would seem like a great success to me, a promising and necessary one. On the other hand, when I read that those who hold that view also criticise universities for having become "elitist, politically correct institutions that often fail to provide practical skills for the job market," that universities are essentially disconnected from the local communities and their needs, I can't but see some true in that. The situation gets worse when I realise that, in fact, I am very uncertain about how far have come universities in helping people becoming 'activists', at least here on the other side of the Atlantic... Alfredo From gutierkd@gmail.com Sun Nov 26 14:43:47 2017 From: gutierkd@gmail.com (Kris Gutierrez) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:43:47 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: ?We are all Vera? as they say; as your influence, Vera, continues to be profound and wide. We are all indebted to you. Thinking of you, Abrazos, Kris Kris D. Guti?rrez Carol Liu Professor Graduate School of Education Prolepsis Design Collaborative Member, National Academy of Education University of California, Berkeley 5629 Tolman Hall Berkeley, CA 94720-1670 gutierrkd@berkeley.edu > On Nov 26, 2017, at 8:07 AM, mike cole wrote: > > A LOT of people are thinking of you Vera. Generations of scholars are in > your debt, and > Working to continue along the paths you have us to. > > Mike > > On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 4:38 AM Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >> I second that emotion! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil >> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:24 AM >> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; >> vygotsky@unm.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and >> junky degrees" >> >> Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a message is >> also always a joy. >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Vera John-Steiner >> Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 >> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies >> and junky degrees" >> >> Annalisa, >> >> I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very poorly, I >> am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I am >> particularly tired. He has recovered well. >> >> I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. >> >> Do let me know what is new with you. >> >> Love, >> >> Vera >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar >> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and >> junky degrees" >> >> Hi fellow Xmcats, >> >> >> Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. >> >> >> Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the >> future of US universities these days. >> >> >> >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ >> < >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor >>> >> < >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor >>> >> >> >> < >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor >>> >> >> What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must >> everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. >> >> >> There is also mention of a Pew study here: >> >> >> http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf >> >> >> (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, >> given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) >> >> >> And also mentioned: >> http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx >> >> >> If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms of >> the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock wears >> off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. >> >> >> Just I thought I would pass this on. >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> From smago@uga.edu Sun Nov 26 15:00:09 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 23:00:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: , <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> , <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu>, <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: I've written a few short essays on political correctness in case anyone's interested. Smagorinsky, P. (2015, September). Political correctness and the future of society. Scholars Speak Out of the Journal of Language and Literacy Education. http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SSO-September-Peter.pdf Smagorinsky, P. (2015, July 21). To be or not to be politically correct: What was that question? Atlanta Journal-Constitution. http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/Op-Ed/PoliticallyCorrect.html -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 4:30 PM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; Vera John-Steiner Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" Hi Alfredo, The person they interviewed in the article was someone who had gone to war, which is, after all, a legitimized and normalized manner "to go out in the world and cause trouble" in many traditional cultures, though historically not all. War is a way to prove oneself, but to prove oneself to whom and for what reason? Who proves oneself with a war? The part about elitism stings both directions. That word can be thrown around so many ways, but when I think of the meaning of the word "elite" I think of exclusion, rather than of, say, philosopher kings. Its meaning is closer to the words "not of my tribe." Couldn't the phrase "politically correct" be just another way to say "democracy" or "inclusion"? "PC" is such a relative acronym that is seems to have lost its original meaning, if there was one. It is the Rattlesnake Shooter who is bellyaching, isn't it? "I'm afraid I'm not important to anyone anymore. So I think I'll shoot a rattlesnake, because I can." Rewind. The historical US narrative goes something like this, give or take a few important events: Native American peoples were living here doing their thing, and quite happily enough. Europeans cross over an ocean or two and rape and pillage lands, peoples, and cultures along the way. This is called "progress" or "civilization." Nativized Europeans call themselves "Americans" because of the locii of their mothers' wombs, all the while excluding the true native peoples. The upstarts start a revolution so indentured servants can have non-dentured servants, and send the landed gentry packing back to their island and their king. That king was such an elitist, wasn't he? Meanwhile back at the plantation, the color of skin is the best way to brand a person like a cow, and from that point on race matters ever more than it once did, in matters of private property and of law. It's called grazing rights for cowboys. Genealogy for weaklings who actually want to live like a king. This is the first significant barrier of exclusion as made by the original elites of this nation, who were male and landowners, but perhaps did not call themselves White Nationalists at that point in time. What did white mean, and what was a nationalist, back then, anyway? Fast forward through pioneer trails west, slaughtered buffalo, land grants, revolving pistols, railroads, shotguns, and a civil war, carpetbaggers, a gold rush, 50 states, and Jim Crow, a few world wars for good measure. and...who was it again who started this elitism??? My head is dizzy from all the historical distractions. Now, the marginalized (people living in the margins in relation to those in the center) want to empower themselves with the written word and the spoken word, and to be able to participate with words, democratically. Because that's what was written down at the beginning: "We the people" just want to use words, and not bullets or other weapons of mass destruction. It's a declaration of independence from a belief in colonialism. We believe in words not markets as our unit for analysis. But those who want to live by the sword and wage any old war, like a bully on the playground, don't understand what a play of words really means, It's just Greek to them, or an Elizabethan balding guy in tights. Dead poets who just don't make economic sense. Rattlesnake Shooters don't understand what life really means when life is so disposable, so meaningless. And so they go on seeking the meaning of life in less elegant ways than what might be read about in wilderness survival manuals. For those who want to use exclusively words to craft a future, our future, a future that includes us, to prefigure what might be with a vibrant and colorful imagination, who want to speak many languages, and who can appreciate many cultures, and tirelessly strive for world peace, rather than uphold a virtually nonexistent monoculture of a shrinking gene pool (that really never was from here, was never glorious, but emerged from the ooze shameful and shamelessly at the same time), we who value words, not war cries, are the ones told, "You Are Elitist." The irony. The irony. Kind regards, Annalisa On 11/26/17 4:21 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: Thanks for passing this on, Annalisa. The text from the Washington post got to put me in a double bind situation: on the one hand, I felt glad that someone would fear that universities were actually teaching people "to become activists and basically go out in the world and cause trouble", which would seem like a great success to me, a promising and necessary one. On the other hand, when I read that those who hold that view also criticise universities for having become "elitist, politically correct institutions that often fail to provide practical skills for the job market," that universities are essentially disconnected from the local communities and their needs, I can't but see some true in that. The situation gets worse when I realise that, in fact, I am very uncertain about how far have come universities in helping people becoming 'activists', at least here on the other side of the Atlantic... Alfredo From sharada.gade@gmail.com Sun Nov 26 18:10:15 2017 From: sharada.gade@gmail.com (Sharada Gade) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 07:40:15 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Just to say Vera that I returned recently to India from Sweden and belong to the LOT that Mike alludes to. Two years back it was patterns of collaboration and this year it has been cognitive pluralism. Your gentle light is showing the way! Hugs Sharada ??????????????????? http://orcid.org/0000-0002-8382-3197 ??????????????????? On 11/27/17, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I've written a few short essays on political correctness in case anyone's > interested. > > Smagorinsky, P. (2015, September). Political correctness and the future of > society. Scholars Speak Out of the Journal of Language and Literacy > Education. > http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SSO-September-Peter.pdf > > Smagorinsky, P. (2015, July 21). To be or not to be politically correct: > What was that question? Atlanta Journal-Constitution. > http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/Op-Ed/PoliticallyCorrect.html > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 4:30 PM > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; Vera > John-Steiner > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and > junky degrees" > > Hi Alfredo, > > > The person they interviewed in the article was someone who had gone to war, > which is, after all, a legitimized and normalized manner "to go out in the > world and cause trouble" in many traditional cultures, though historically > not all. War is a way to prove oneself, but to prove oneself to whom and for > what reason? Who proves oneself with a war? > > > The part about elitism stings both directions. That word can be thrown > around so many ways, but when I think of the meaning of the word "elite" I > think of exclusion, rather than of, say, philosopher kings. Its meaning is > closer to the words "not of my tribe." > > > Couldn't the phrase "politically correct" be just another way to say > "democracy" or "inclusion"? > > > "PC" is such a relative acronym that is seems to have lost its original > meaning, if there was one. It is the Rattlesnake Shooter who is bellyaching, > isn't it? "I'm afraid I'm not important to anyone anymore. So I think I'll > shoot a rattlesnake, because I can." > > > Rewind. The historical US narrative goes something like this, give or take a > few important events: > > > Native American peoples were living here doing their thing, and quite > happily enough. > > > Europeans cross over an ocean or two and rape and pillage lands, peoples, > and cultures along the way. This is called "progress" or "civilization." > > > Nativized Europeans call themselves "Americans" because of the locii of > their mothers' wombs, all the while excluding the true native peoples. The > upstarts start a revolution so indentured servants can have non-dentured > servants, and send the landed gentry packing back to their island and their > king. That king was such an elitist, wasn't he? > > > Meanwhile back at the plantation, the color of skin is the best way to brand > a person like a cow, and from that point on race matters ever more than it > once did, in matters of private property and of law. It's called grazing > rights for cowboys. Genealogy for weaklings who actually want to live like a > king. > > > This is the first significant barrier of exclusion as made by the original > elites of this nation, who were male and landowners, but perhaps did not > call themselves White Nationalists at that point in time. What did white > mean, and what was a nationalist, back then, anyway? > > > Fast forward through pioneer trails west, slaughtered buffalo, land grants, > revolving pistols, railroads, shotguns, and a civil war, carpetbaggers, a > gold rush, 50 states, and Jim Crow, a few world wars for good measure. > and...who was it again who started this elitism??? My head is dizzy from all > the historical distractions. > > > Now, the marginalized (people living in the margins in relation to those in > the center) want to empower themselves with the written word and the spoken > word, and to be able to participate with words, democratically. Because > that's what was written down at the beginning: "We the people" just want to > use words, and not bullets or other weapons of mass destruction. It's a > declaration of independence from a belief in colonialism. We believe in > words not markets as our unit for analysis. > > > But those who want to live by the sword and wage any old war, like a bully > on the playground, don't understand what a play of words really means, It's > just Greek to them, or an Elizabethan balding guy in tights. Dead poets who > just don't make economic sense. Rattlesnake Shooters don't understand what > life really means when life is so disposable, so meaningless. And so they go > on seeking the meaning of life in less elegant ways than what might be read > about in wilderness survival manuals. > > > For those who want to use exclusively words to craft a future, our future, a > future that includes us, to prefigure what might be with a vibrant and > colorful imagination, who want to speak many languages, and who can > appreciate many cultures, and tirelessly strive for world peace, rather than > uphold a virtually nonexistent monoculture of a shrinking gene pool (that > really never was from here, was never glorious, but emerged from the ooze > shameful and shamelessly at the same time), we who value words, not war > cries, are the ones told, "You Are Elitist." > > > The irony. The irony. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > On 11/26/17 4:21 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Thanks for passing this on, Annalisa. The text from the Washington post got > to put me in a double bind situation: on the one hand, I felt glad that > someone would fear that universities were actually teaching people "to > become activists and basically go out in the world and cause trouble", which > would seem like a great success to me, a promising and necessary one. On the > other hand, when I read that those who hold that view also criticise > universities for having become "elitist, politically correct institutions > that often fail to provide practical skills for the job market," that > universities are essentially disconnected from the local communities and > their needs, I can't but see some true in that. The situation gets worse > when I realise that, in fact, I am very uncertain about how far have come > universities in helping people becoming 'activists', at least here on the > other side of the Atlantic... > Alfredo > > > From goncu@uic.edu Sun Nov 26 21:58:56 2017 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 23:58:56 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <875fc1243a9c68d4d0c23b4e9b2ce23f.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Dear Vera, One of the paths of influence goes through here, the city of Istanbul. I just talked with hundreds of young people in Turkey about the significance of supportive childhood environment in the later development of creativity in arts and sciences. "Notebooks," are in our minds.. Thinking of you and missing you, Artin Artin Goncu, Ph.D http://www.artingoncu.com/ Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 On Sun, November 26, 2017 4:43 pm, Kris Gutierrez wrote: > ???We are all Vera??? as they say; as your influence, Vera, continues to > be profound and wide. We are all indebted to you. Thinking of you, > Abrazos, Kris > > Kris D. Guti??rrez > Carol Liu Professor > Graduate School of Education > Prolepsis Design Collaborative > Member, National Academy of Education > University of California, Berkeley > 5629 Tolman Hall > Berkeley, CA 94720-1670 > gutierrkd@berkeley.edu > > > > > >> On Nov 26, 2017, at 8:07 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >> A LOT of people are thinking of you Vera. Generations of scholars are in >> your debt, and >> Working to continue along the paths you have us to. >> >> Mike >> >> On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 4:38 AM Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >> >>> I second that emotion! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:24 AM >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; >>> vygotsky@unm.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies >>> and >>> junky degrees" >>> >>> Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a message >>> is >>> also always a joy. >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Vera John-Steiner >>> Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, >>> crybabies >>> and junky degrees" >>> >>> Annalisa, >>> >>> I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very >>> poorly, I >>> am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I am >>> particularly tired. He has recovered well. >>> >>> I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. >>> >>> Do let me know what is new with you. >>> >>> Love, >>> >>> Vera >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar >>> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and >>> junky degrees" >>> >>> Hi fellow Xmcats, >>> >>> >>> Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. >>> >>> >>> Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the >>> future of US universities these days. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ >>> < >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor >>>> >>> < >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor >>>> >>> >>> >>> < >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor >>>> >>> >>> What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must >>> everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. >>> >>> >>> There is also mention of a Pew study here: >>> >>> >>> http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf >>> >>> >>> (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, >>> given how connected everyone is on this list! ????) >>> >>> >>> And also mentioned: >>> http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx >>> >>> >>> If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms >>> of >>> the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock >>> wears >>> off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. >>> >>> >>> Just I thought I would pass this on. >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > From smago@uga.edu Mon Nov 27 14:18:40 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 22:18:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Hi Peter! In-Reply-To: <5C44CFCF-CBF7-48EB-AEAB-25F6F1340AD2@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <9D085BA5-9D3C-41CF-AB68-BCAE20E9B044@eastsideinstitute.org> <5C44CFCF-CBF7-48EB-AEAB-25F6F1340AD2@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: Some might find this interesting: The East Side Institute for Group and Short Term Psychotherapy presents Social Therapeutics @ the Grassroots and in the Academy with Lois Holzman & Guests February 23 -May 20, 2018 Click here for an application This advanced, 12-week course offers an in-depth study of the foundations of Fred Newman and Lois Holzman's social therapeutics and its current practice. Led by Institute co-founder, Lois Holzman, the course will include guest faculty whose work in diverse communities and environments in the US and internationally is strongly influenced by the Newman-Holzman approach. What new conceptions - new 'tools and results' - might we discover in an exploration of colleagues' varied practice of social therapeutics and its evolution at the grassroots and in the academy? We welcome applicants - researchers, scholars and practitioners - from a range of disciplines. A 12-Week Developmental Challenge We begin with a four-week intensive study of Newman and Holzman's Unscientific Psychology: A Cultural-Performatory Approach to Understanding Human Life, which introduces a non-epistemic, activity theoretic, group performatory approach to human development and learning. We examine the contributions that cultural-historical activity theory, social constructionism, performance studies and philosophy of language have made to social therapeutics. We follow with a reading of Holzman's Vygotsky at Work and Play (2nd Edition) in tandem with presentations by, and intensive dialogue with, guest faculty. What are these scholars, psychologists and therapists, theatre artists and practitioners discovering about human development and building community using the conceptual tools of social therapeutics? What new discoveries have these conceptions produced, and can our class investigation continue to advance these discoveries? Access Powerful Conceptual Tools * Lev Vygotsky, Ludwig Wittgenstein and a cultural-performatory understanding of human life. * Selves and Identities. * Zone of proximal development, revisited. * Individuals, groups and human development. * Languaging and the thinking-speaking dialectic. * Philosophy and modern psychology's glorification of the individual. * Mental illness and alienation. * The performatory dialectic of being-and-becoming. * Human activity-practical-critical, tool-and-result, revolutionary. Create the Conversation * Conferencing - Every other week Skype (or Zoom) conference calls and live chats with guest faculty. * Online discussion - Ongoing and continuous discussion on source materials, assignments and guest faculty. It's asynchronous so you can add to it at any time. Lois Holzman Lois Holzman, Ph.D. is the co-founder and director of the East Side Institute for Group and Short Term Psychotherapy and the founder and chief organizer of the bi-annual Performing the World conference. Her teaching, research and writing have developed in tandem with and in service to her community organizing work. Over forty years Lois has built and led grassroots organizations that are engaging poverty and underdevelopment utilizing the transformative power of performance. She is mentor and coach to hundreds of scholars, educators, artists and community activists around the globe, and, along with them, she is helping to usher in performance activism as a new approach to community development and social change. The author/editor of ten books and dozens of chapters and articles, Lois also blogs at loisholzman.org, Psychology Today, and Mad in America. Tuition $850. (Students are responsible for purchasing required texts.) For more information and to apply go to: http://eastsideinstitute.org/training/social-therapeutics-online/ [http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/1101116784221/PT_CONFSUB_OuterShadowBottomBL.png] [http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/1101116784221/PT_CONFSUB_OuterShadowBottomBR.png] From alexander.surmava@yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 05:41:00 2017 From: alexander.surmava@yahoo.com (Alexander Surmava) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 13:41:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgUmU6IFRoZSBBbmF0b215IG9mIHRoZSBBcGU=?= In-Reply-To: <9acab008-b9f5-bd11-4e0c-d851c26f48bc@mira.net> References: <9acab008-b9f5-bd11-4e0c-d851c26f48bc@mira.net> Message-ID: <783019302.8250525.1511962860922@mail.yahoo.com> | ??????? ????! ????? ???????, ?? ??????? ??? ???????? ??????????? ?? ????????????? ??????????????????? ???????? ? CHAT ???? ?????????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????????. ?? ????????? ISCAR ? ???? ? ????? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ? ??????????? ? ???? ? ??????????. ? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????????? ??? ????? ???????? ????? ???????, ? ???????? ?????????? ? ??? ????? ?????????, ??? ??, ??????? ?? ???????????? ????????????? ??????????, ??????????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????????? ? ??????????????? ?????????, ?????????? ?????? ??? ???????????. J | Dear Andy! It's funny, but for the first time I came across a specific approach to CHAT, characteristic of the right Vygotskians thanks to the same Jan Valsiner. At the ISCAR Congress in Rome, I made a report "Ilyenkov and the Revolution in Psychology" in his symposium. And Jan so much did not like the title of my report, and especially the mention of the word Revolution in it, that he, forgetting about elementary academic politeness, accompanied my report with the most venomous and sarcastic remarks, effectively disrupting my speech. | | ??? ? ??????? ?????????? ? ???????????? ????????? ??????? ??????????????. ??????????, ???????? ??????????, ???? ????? ????????, ????? ????????? ? ? ??????. ??, ???????? ? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ? ????????????? ????????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???, ??? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ???????, ???????????? ????? ??????????? ????????????? ???????? ? ??????????, ? ????????? ??? ????????? ?????????????? ????? ? ?????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????? ????????? ?? ????????????, ?????ognitive science?. ??????? ?????? ???????????? ? ????? ? ?????? ??????. ?? ?????, ??????, ?? ???????, ??? ?????? ????????? ?????? ??????????????. ??? ??????? ? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ????????? ???-??, ??????? ?? ?????? ????????. ??????? ???? ????? ? ????????? ? ??????????? ?????? ?????????? ? ?????????? ???? ? ??? ????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???????????? ???????, ??????????? ?????? ????? ???, ????? ??????? ? ?????? ? ???????? ????????? ? ??? ??????. | Of course, such characters, if you try, you can meet in Moscow too. But, considering the very low interest of Russian psychologists in the domestic theoretical psychology, those who profess the right political views prefer to completely discard the theoretical legacy of both Vygotsky and Leontyev as Soviet ideological garbage and engage in retelling fashionable Western concepts from psychoanalysis to ??ognitive science?. Therefore, the right Vygotskians in Russia are extremely rare. It does not follow from this that Russia is filled with the Left Vygotskians. For leftism in the Russian academic community is considered something that lies beyond the bounds of decency. Therefore, most often consider themselves to Vygotsky's school researchers without any political position, anxious primarily to get in unison with Western interest in his figure. | | ???????? ?????????? ??????? ?? ???????? ? ???? ???????????? ??? ????????? ? ????????? ? ? ?????????, ?? ???? ?????????????? ?????????????? ????, ??? ?????? ???????????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ? ?????? ????????????? ????????. | The sarcasm of the Estonian colleague did not prompt me, too, to reconsider my attitude to the revolution and to Marxism, but provided additional proof that a false political position very often goes hand in hand with a false theoretical position. | | ???????, ????? ?????????? ??????? ?????????????? ?????????. ????? ???????????? ???????? ? ????????? ? ???????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ? ???????????. | However, here it is necessary to make a fundamental clarification. The connection between political sympathies and antipathies with scientific views is far from simple and unambiguous. | | ?? ????, ??? ???????? ?????????????? ????? ? ????????????? ???????? ? ???????? ?????? ?? ???????, ??? ??? ????????????? ??????? ???????. ? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?.?.?????????? ? ??? ???????????? ???????????? ???????? ??? ???????? ???????? ? ???????? ?????? ????????. | From the fact that the theorist adheres to the left and progressive views in politics does not automatically follow that his theoretical views are true. And I'm ready to show an example of the same Vygotsky and his favorite Marx's aphorism about the human anatomy and the anatomy of apes. | | ???? ?????? ? ?????????????? ?????????? ? ???????????????? ??? ???????? ????????? ????????????????. ????????? ??????? ????????? ??? ?????????? ??????? ??????????? ????????, ?? ???????????? ?????????? ??????? ????????????? ??? ????????, ??????? (??????????) ??? ???????. ?? ???? ?? ???????? ?? ?? ???????????? ? ???????????, ??, ?? ???????????? ? ???????, ??????????? ??????????, ???????? ???????????? ????????????? ???????? ????????, ?????????? ?????. | My first and fundamental reproach to the theorizing of LSV is reproach methodological. Vygotsky undertakes to discuss the so-called "higher mental functions" without having to worry about defining the functions "natural" or "inferior", the psyche (zoopsyche) as such. That is, he does not ascend from the abstract to the concrete. Not having understood a simple, abstract basis, he proceeds to a theoretical analysis of the most developed, concrete forms. | | ? ??? ?? ????????? ??????????. ? ??????????? ??????, ????????? ????????????? ?????? LSV ????????? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????????? ?????????, ??????? ???????? ?????? ? ????????? ?????????. ? ?????????, ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ? ??????????? ????? ?????? LSV ?? ????????. ????? ???, ??? ????, ????? ?????????? ????? ?????? ? ????? ??????????? ?? ???????????? ? ??????????? - ????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????????????? | Moreover, this is not an accidental oversight. In support of his specific method, which was strictly reverse of the Marxist one, Vygotsky refers to ... the aphorism of Marx himself about "human anatomy", which is the key to the "anatomy of ape". Unfortunately, nothing beyond this quote in support of this method LSV did not leave us. Meanwhile, in order to overturn the method of Marx - the method of ascent from the abstract to the concrete - one misunderstood quotation of Marx himself is clearly not enough ... | | ???????, ??? ? ?????? ?????? ??? ???????????? ????? ??? ?????????????? ? ??? ?? ?????? ? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????????? ????? ???????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????????????, ???????????? ?????????. ????? ????, ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???????, ??????????????? ???????? ?? ????? ???? ????????? ?????? ??? ????????? ???????????? ?? ???????????? ? ????????????. | Let us note that Marx himself does not have a contradiction between his "ascent" and his thought about the key role of the image of the whole for understanding the development of this whole from its elementary, abstract foundation. Moreover, one cannot be understood without the other, an "anatomical" metaphor cannot be correctly understood outside the context of "ascension from the abstract to the concrete." | | ? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???: ??????????????????, ? ?????????????, ??????????????????????????.??????? ?? ?????? ? ?????? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????, ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?????????. ?? ???: ?? ??? ????????????? ?????? ??????? ? ???????? ? ?????? ????????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????????????? ??? ???????????.? | In Marx, this idea sounds like this: "Human anatomy contains a key to the anatomy of the ape. The intimations of higher development among the subordinate animal species, however, can be understood only after the higher development is already known. In addition: ??in the theoretical method, too, the subject, society, must always be kept in mind as the presupposition?. | | ???? ? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ? ???, ??? ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????, ??? ????????. ??????, ????????, ?????????? ????? ???? ????????????? ?????? ?????? ? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???????????? ????????????? ????????????? ? ??????????? ????? ??????????? ? ????? ??????????. ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ? ??? ??????, ????, ???????? ? ?????????? ??????????, ? ??????????? ?????????? ?? ???????? ?? ???? ??????, ?? ? ???? ???????????, ??????? ?? ?????????? ? ????? ??????, ? ??????, ????? ?? ??????? ? ???? ??? ????????? ???????????? ??????. ? ? ???? ?????? ??????? ????????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????? ? ??????????? ???????????? ????? ???????????, ????????? ??????. | In any way, Marx does not affirm that "higher" can be understood earlier than ?inferior? can. The higher, the developed, the concrete can be really understood only if we could systematically theoretically reproduce the origin and genesis of this concrete in the very reality itself. However, this is possible only if, beginning with the ultimate abstraction, with the famous "germ cell" we are moving not just anywhere, but to the concrete one, which we actually want to understand, and so, in order not to lose our way, we need an original compass. Moreover, the role of such a compass is played by the image of a concrete whole, seized by an aesthetically and morally developed imagination. | | ???, ???? ?? ????? ?????? ???????????? ????????, ???????????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ??????????, ???, ??????? ?????????????? ? ???????????? ???????, ??????? ? ???????? ?????? ???????? ?????????? ????????? ???????????? ????????. ? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????????? ???????? ????? ???????????? ????? ????????, ????? ??????????? ?????????????????? ?????????? ?????????????? ??? ?????????? ???. ??, ???????? ???????????? ???????? ?? ????????? ? ???? ???, ? ???? ???????. ? ????? ?????? ? ????? ??????? ????????? ? ???????? ??????????? ?? ???????????? ? ??????????? ???? ???????????? ???? ????. ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??????????? ????????? ?????????. | Therefore, if we want to understand the human consciousness, the human psyche, we must first find an elementary abstraction, the one that really exists, which in the process of its development necessarily generates human consciousness. From our point of view, this phenomenon is the most elementary living organism, reflecting the objective world that opposes it with its vital activity. But, the developed human consciousness does not arise in one step. Moreover, in order to understand in which direction to move in the process of ascent from the abstract to the concrete one, one must imagine a goal. It is about the image of this goal that Marx says, referring to the notorious "human anatomy". | | ??? ?????, ???????? ?? ???????? ????????? ?????? ? ??????????? ?????????, ??????? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???? ??????, ?? ????? ??????? ????????????? ????????, ??????????? ???????? ?? ???????? ? ??????? ????????, ???????, ???? ? ????????, ??? ?????? ????????????? ? ??????????? ???????? ??????????? ???????? ?????????? ????? ??????????? ????????? ?????? ???????????????, ?? ??? ??????-?????????????? ???????. | Marx himself, moving from simple commodity exchange to surplus value, profit and rent did not move anywhere, but along the vector of historical development, the direction of which he guessed with the help of Shakespeare, Moliere, Goethe and Balzac, for only an artistically and morally developed imagination is capable of retaining the image historically developed whole directly, before his scientific and theoretical analysis. | | ?????? ???, ? ???????????? ? ??????? ????????, ???????? ?? ???????????? ? ??????????? ????? ?????? ? ???????? ????????? ????????. | Only in this way, in accordance with the method of Capital, moving from the abstract to the concrete one can come to a scientific understanding of the subject. | | ????????, ???? ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ??????????, ?? ????? ????????? ??????????????, ??? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ????????? ?????? ??????? ??????, ?? ??????? ? ????? ??? ????? ????????? ?????????? ??????????? ??????????? ? ????, ???????????, ?????????? ????????, ??? ? ?? ??????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????????, ????????????? ???????????, ? ?????? ??? ? ?? ?????????? ?? ??????? ???????????? ???????????, ?????????. | On the contrary, if we take a look at Vygotsky's theorizing, we will have to admit that, contrary to his sincere desire to follow the old classic's method, he was stuck in a more or less casual contemplation of empirically concrete - speech, experiences, age crises, and without trying to grope for their real path , historical formation, and thus never having risen to the level of a theoretically concrete, level of scientifically true. | | ?????????, ??? ? ????????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ?????????, ??? ???? ?????? ???????????? ???? ? ???????????????? ????????? ????????????? ????????, ??, ? ?????????, ??? ? ?? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ???????????? ???????? ?? ???? ?????????????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?????????? ??? ???????????. | Vygotsky, like many of his colleagues, rightly noted that speech plays an essential role in the functioning of the developed human consciousness, but, unfortunately, they could not go beyond arbitrary fantasies about the mysterious "interweaving" of it with an equally mysterious "thinking". | | ?????? ?????? ???????? ??????????, ??? ????????????, ?????????????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ???????????? ?????????, ?? ????? ?? ??????????? ? ???????????????? ??????? ???????????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????????? (? ?????? ?????? ? ????????? ??? ???? ?? ??????????????), ?? ??????????? ????????? ? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ????????????? ???? ?????????????? ? ?????????????? ????? ????????? ?????????, ?????????? ?? ????? ??????????????? ???????. | This example is especially characteristic, because rational, dialectical logic consists not in describing individual random empirical phenomena, not through their "generalization" and unproductive attempts to establish between them certain special relations (in this case - the relationship of the same "intertwining"), but in finding in the very nature of the thing of its simple living foundation and tracing the path of self-discrimination and differentiation of this universal basis, the generation of its opposite organs. | | ????????????? ????????? ?????????, ??????????? ????????? ? ?????? ??????????? ?? ???????? ?????????? ????? (?????????? ????????????) ??????, ?? ????????? ????????? ??????????? ? ????? ??????????? ? ??????????? ?????????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ? ??????????, ?????????, ????? ?????? ????????????? ? ??????????????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ? ???????????. | The specific "human anatomy", as a reference point, allowing to move in the right direction from the initial abstraction of life (object-oriented activity) in general, from the "anatomy of ape" is in a truly aesthetically and morally grasped image of a free man and citizen, actively, with his labor producing and reproducing life in all its forms and manifestations. | | ????? ??????, ??? ??????, ??????? ? ???? ?????????? ? ???????????? ? ???????????? ????? ???????? ? ??? ??????? ??????????. ????????? ?????? ???????. ??, ???????, ? ???????????? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ????? ? ??????? ?????????? ???????????? ???? ? ?????? ????? ????? ????????? ????? ?????????? ???, ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????????? ???? ?????????? ????? ????? ?????? ???????????? ????????????, ? ?????? ? ???? ??? ???????????? (????????) ??????????? ???-?? ????????? ? ?????????????. ?? ???? ???? ????????, ??? ????? ?????????? ????????????? ???????????? ???????? ????????????? ?????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????-?? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????, ????? ???, ????????? ??? ???????????? ??????? ???????????? ???????????? ? ???????? ????? ? ?????? ??????? ????????????? ??????????, ???????? ????? ????????? ?? ??????? ????? ? ????? ????????? ????? ??????????? ????????????, ???????????? ?????. ??????? ? ?????????? ????????, ???????? ?????? ????? ???????????? ?? ????????? ??????? ??????, ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???????????? ?????????, ?? ??????????? ?????????? ????????, ???????? ???????????? ??????????? ??? ????????? ??????????? ???, ??? ? ??????? ? ???????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ?????????, ???? ????? ????. ?????????????? ???????????? ? ???????????? ??????? ??? ????????? ???????? ?? ?????????? ?? ????????? ??????? ?????? ? ?? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????? ?????, ?? ??????? ex professo, ?? ??????? ? ???????? ? ???????? ???????????. | In other words, for Marx, Spinoza, and even Anaxagoras, the moral and aesthetic ideal of man is a working man. To work is to think. Yes, of course, there is a division of labor in human society and today concrete human labor and instruments of this labor are divided among individuals so that to an individual there is only an infinitesimal part of the instruments of human activity, and therefore its very activity (thinking) is somehow partial and one-sided. But it must be clearly understood that any abstract theoretical activity receives confirmation of its dignity as something true if and only if it was born as an integral part of practical activity and then fled to the skies of high theoretical abstractions and is able to return to sinful earth and become the principle of a new sensory activity, the activity of a stroke. Man is an active being, who first of all is opposed not by the obedient matter of signs, which he can cut at his own will, but practically an active being, which is opposed by the sensual world, which is disobedient to his will, a world whose forms and laws a man has to reckon with if he wants to live. Accordingly, the moral and aesthetic ideal for a Marxist is not a specialist in the composition of crafty signs and in ingenious formal handling of these signs, not an ideologist ex professo, but a man as a worker, a man as an artist, and a man as a materialist theorist. | | ? ? ????? ?????????? ?????????? ??????????????, ??? ?.?.?????????, ??? ???? ??? ????????? ?????????? ? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????, ? ???? ?????? ???????? ? ????? ??????????????? ?? ????????? ???????. ??? ?? ????????? ????????????????? ?????? ? ?????, ??????????? ????????, ??? ????? ???????? ????? ? ???????, ??? ????????????????? ????????? ?????????? ???? ????????, ?? ?? ? ???? ?????? ?? ?????????. ??? ?????????? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ???????????? ? ??????? ??????????? ????????? ? ???? ???????????? ??????????, ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???????? ????????? ? ??????????? ???????????? ? ????? ????, ???????? ??????????? ????????????, ???????? sine qua non ?????????, ? ??? ???????, ???? ?? ???????????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??-???????? ? ??? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ?????? ? ?????????? ?? ??????? ????. | In the light of what has been said, we must state that LS Vygotsky, with all his sincere assurances of his desire to follow in the footsteps of Marx, moved at this point in the direction directly opposite from Marxism. So he carefully contrasts tools and signs, emphasizing in every possible way that between the tools of labor and signs, or "psychological tools," there is only an analogy, but in no way an identity. That the "thinking" of a person is only the operation with the data obtained by the individual in the act of sense perception, which in itself has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, and moreover, is a prerequisite, the condition of sine qua non of the latter, and that the main, if not the only task of thinking is essentially reduced to the so-called "generalization" of sensory data and the appropriation of generic names for them. | | ?? ????????? ????????, ???, ??????? ?????? ??????????, ???????? ?????????? ? ???????? ??????, ??? ?????, ? ??????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ? ???? ??????????? ?? ???????????? ? ???????????, ??? ?????????, ??? ?????????? ????????????? ??? ????? ?????? ? ????????? ??? ?????????? ??? ?? ??????? ?????, ?? ???????? ??????? ? ??? ????????????? ???????? (??? ????????) ? ???? ???????? ?????, ?????????? ??????????????? ??????. | But what has been said means that, contrary to the good wishes, a real guide in the movement of the theory, the goal to which the theoretician should move in the act of ascension from the abstract to the concrete, that being whose "anatomy" was regarded as something supreme and ideal for Vygotsky was not working man, but a typical ideologist with his universal master key (or flail) in the form of a crafty word, a verbal ideological sign. | | ?? ?????????? ?????? ?? ????, ????? ???????? ?.?.?????????? ? ???? ????? ? ?????-?? ?????? ???????????? ? ?????????? ??????????. ??? ?????, ??? ? ???? ????? ? ??????? ??????????????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??????????. ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???????? ? ??????????? ????????????????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????/????????? ? ??? ?????????????, ???????????????????? ???????? ??????????????? ?????. ?? ???? ???????? ??????. ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????????, ??? ? ????? ???????????????? ?.?.?????????, ??-??????, ?? ??? ?? ???????????? ? ???????????, ??? ??? ? ?? ????????? ? ???????? ????? ??? ???????, ? ?????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????, ??????????? ????? ???????????? ???? ????????????, ???????? ??????????? ???????, ????????, ????????????? ???????? ? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ???????? ? ??? ????????? (????????). ?, ??-??????, ??? ????????? ????????, ????????? ?? ?????? ??????????????? ????????????? ? ???, ??? ??????????? ???????? ???????? ??? ? ??????? ????? ????????????? ???????????????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ??????????????? ? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?????????? ????????????, ? ???????? ???? ?????????? ? ?????????? ??, ?????????? ?????????? ?????? ? ?? ????????????, ? ?? ??????????. ????? ??????, ?????????? ??????????????, ??? ????????????? ??????????? ?.?.?????????? ????? ?? ???????????? ? ???????????? ??????. | We are infinitely far from reproaching Vygotsky for this reason in some bad moral and social attitudes. Moreover, in this very typical idealistic scheme, he was not at all original. Exactly the same scheme for the misleading unprepared reader of the title "Marxism and the philosophy of language" left us Bakhtin / Voloshinov with his brilliant, self-revealing term "ideological sign". But the facts are facts. Calling things by their proper names, we must admit that in his theorizing LS Vygotsky, first, did not go from the abstract to the concrete, for he did not discern in the phenomenon of life as such, in the object-oriented relation of the subject to the world, positing by his activity the realm of his objectivity, the most abstract phenomenon, the development, the concretization of which is nothing more than the development of human activity, that is, the person with his consciousness ("psyche"). And, secondly, his conception of thinking, proceeding from the purely sensationalist notion that sensations are "given" to us by means of a purely mechanical functioning of the so-called "sense organs", irrespective of any kind of object-oriented activity, and thinking is only "Generalization" and designation with the help of their signs, of course infinitely far from both materialism and dialectics. In other words, we have to state that the theoretical reflections of Vygotsky do not fit into Marxist logic. | | ? ???? ??????, ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????????? ? ???????, ?????????? ???????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????????. ?? ??? ??????? ?????????? ?? ??????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ??????????????? ??????. | At this point, in the non-Marxism of Vygotsky, our conclusion at first glance coincides with the thesis persistently propagated today by the right-wing Vygotskians. But with an external coincidence, there is a diametrically opposite reason behind a similar conclusion. | | ???????????? ???? ?? ????????? ? ???? ??????? ???????? ? ????, ???, ??-??????, ??? ? ????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ?? ???, ?? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ???????????? ??????????, ?, ??-??????, ??? ? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????, ??? ??? ?????????? ? ??? ?????? ? ?????????????? ?????????, ??????? ????? ?????? ???????? ?????????, ???? ?? ??????? ????????? ?? ?? ??? ?????????. ????????? ????? ???? ?????????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?????????, ????? ?? ????????? ??????????????. | The argument of the same Yasnitsky in this matter boils down to the fact that, first, like the "all" Soviet theorists, Vygotsky was not, but only had to pretend to be a Marxist, and secondly, that there was no big trouble, for "Marxism" itself is an empty and unproductive ideology that could only hinder the theorist, if he seriously tried to lean on it. The weight of both these arguments, we will not even discuss, because of their obvious inadequacy. | | ????????, ? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ???????????? ?????????? ?? ????? ?????????????? ????????????? ??????? ? ??????????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?????????????? ???????, ?? ???????????? ????????? ??????????????? ????????????? ???????, ? ?????? ????? ???????? ???????????? ????????? ???????. ?????? ?????????????? ???? ? ????? ???????????? ????? ? ???????????? ???????? ???????? ??????? ?.?.????????? ? ?.?.?????????, ???? ? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ? ???????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ??????? (????????????) ??????. | On the contrary, in Vygotsky's failure to lay the foundation of Marxist psychology, we see a real theoretical failure and see for it not some external ideological reasons, but the unsettledness of some of the fundamental theoretical problems, and above all the problem of an adequate, materialistic understanding of Spinoza's ideas. The first real steps to the new Marxist science of human consciousness happened to Leontiev and Ilyenkov, although they did only the very first steps on this path and bequeathed us the task of developing a truly scientific (Marxist) theory. | ??: Andy Blunden ????: David Kellogg ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ??????????: ?????, 22 ?????? 2017 3:01 ????: [Xmca-l] Re: The Anatomy of the Ape Well, my interpretation has long been the Hegelian one, David, and knowing that Marx studied the Philosophy of Right quite closely, I guess that was Marx's allusion, too. Much as I admire Terrell Carver, I cannot connect that to nostalgia at all. Funnily enough it was this aphorism that marked my very first glimpse of CHAT internal politics. It was around 1998 that I was recommended to read a book by Jan Valsiner by a colleague at the University of Melbourne, which I duly did. I can't remember which book , but I emailed Jan and challenged his negative comment on the "anatomy of the ape" aphorism. I spoke up in its defence, stupidly pointing out that it was a quote from Marx. How naive was I, thinking that pointing out that some claim was a quote from Marx in some way settled an argument. Vasliner simply replied: "Yes, Marx was wrong." That did not turn me off Vygotsky or Marx, but I did go in search of other introductory works, and I think it was then that I found Lois Holzman. Andy Andy Blunden http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 22/11/2017 10:47 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > Thanks, Andy--that's the answer I was looking for. T. > Carver argues that what Marx is really saying in this > passage is that our appreciation of ancient Greek art is a > kind of nostalgia for slave times. That's certainly true > in some places (it explains Mussolini's neo-classicism, > the appreciation of Classical culture in the slave-owning > South, etc.). But nostalgia really is teleological: it is > a longing for naivete, innocence, and temps perdu. I think > this passage says something very different: any language > contains its own history. That's all. It doesn't imply > that a language is reducible to a history or a history can > be elaborated into the whole language. Shakespeare's > Troilus and Cressida "contains" Homer, but that doesn't > mean that it is Homer for grown-ups. > > David > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 8:19 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > >? ? The aphorism was reproduced in >? ? https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/index.htm >? ? >? ? , Appendix 1, published in German in Berlin in 1859, >? ? most of >? ? which is found verbatim in The Grundrisse. > >? ? Andy > > >? ? ------------------------------------------------------------ >? ? Andy Blunden >? ? http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >? ? >? ? On 22/11/2017 10:08 AM, David Kellogg wrote: >? ? > Vygotsky cites, in the Historical Meaning of the >? ? Crisis of Psychology, >? ? > Marx's rather cryptic remark in the Grundrisse about >? ? human anatomy holding >? ? > the key to the anatomy of the ape. He uses this >? ? elsewhere (in his >? ? > discussions of psychotechnics and pedology) and >? ? obviously finds it an >? ? > important remark. More, he is perfectly aware of its >? ? non-teleological >? ? > character: he knows that saying that humans >? ? developed from apes is not the >? ? > same thing as saying that apes are fated to become >? ? humans. >? ? > >? ? > But how did Vygotsky know this? As far as I can >? ? figure out, the Grundrisse >? ? > wasn't published until 1939, five years after >? ? Vygotsky's death. Did >? ? > Vygotsky have privileged access? Or is there some >? ? other place where Marx >? ? > says this that I don't know about? >? ? > >? ? > David Kellogg >? ? > >? ? > > > From alexander.surmava@yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 05:41:00 2017 From: alexander.surmava@yahoo.com (Alexander Surmava) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 13:41:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?0J7RgtCyOiAgUmU6IFRoZSBBbmF0b215IG9mIHRoZSBBcGU=?= In-Reply-To: <9acab008-b9f5-bd11-4e0c-d851c26f48bc@mira.net> References: <9acab008-b9f5-bd11-4e0c-d851c26f48bc@mira.net> Message-ID: <783019302.8250525.1511962860922@mail.yahoo.com> | ??????? ????! ????? ???????, ?? ??????? ??? ???????? ??????????? ?? ????????????? ??????????????????? ???????? ? CHAT ???? ?????????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????????. ?? ????????? ISCAR ? ???? ? ????? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ? ??????????? ? ???? ? ??????????. ? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????????? ??? ????? ???????? ????? ???????, ? ???????? ?????????? ? ??? ????? ?????????, ??? ??, ??????? ?? ???????????? ????????????? ??????????, ??????????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????????? ? ??????????????? ?????????, ?????????? ?????? ??? ???????????. J | Dear Andy! It's funny, but for the first time I came across a specific approach to CHAT, characteristic of the right Vygotskians thanks to the same Jan Valsiner. At the ISCAR Congress in Rome, I made a report "Ilyenkov and the Revolution in Psychology" in his symposium. And Jan so much did not like the title of my report, and especially the mention of the word Revolution in it, that he, forgetting about elementary academic politeness, accompanied my report with the most venomous and sarcastic remarks, effectively disrupting my speech. | | ??? ? ??????? ?????????? ? ???????????? ????????? ??????? ??????????????. ??????????, ???????? ??????????, ???? ????? ????????, ????? ????????? ? ? ??????. ??, ???????? ? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ? ????????????? ????????????? ??????????, ?? ?? ???, ??? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ???????, ???????????? ????? ??????????? ????????????? ???????? ? ??????????, ? ????????? ??? ????????? ?????????????? ????? ? ?????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????? ????????? ?? ????????????, ?????ognitive science?. ??????? ?????? ???????????? ? ????? ? ?????? ??????. ?? ?????, ??????, ?? ???????, ??? ?????? ????????? ?????? ??????????????. ??? ??????? ? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ????????? ???-??, ??????? ?? ?????? ????????. ??????? ???? ????? ? ????????? ? ??????????? ?????? ?????????? ? ?????????? ???? ? ??? ????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???????????? ???????, ??????????? ?????? ????? ???, ????? ??????? ? ?????? ? ???????? ????????? ? ??? ??????. | Of course, such characters, if you try, you can meet in Moscow too. But, considering the very low interest of Russian psychologists in the domestic theoretical psychology, those who profess the right political views prefer to completely discard the theoretical legacy of both Vygotsky and Leontyev as Soviet ideological garbage and engage in retelling fashionable Western concepts from psychoanalysis to ??ognitive science?. Therefore, the right Vygotskians in Russia are extremely rare. It does not follow from this that Russia is filled with the Left Vygotskians. For leftism in the Russian academic community is considered something that lies beyond the bounds of decency. Therefore, most often consider themselves to Vygotsky's school researchers without any political position, anxious primarily to get in unison with Western interest in his figure. | | ???????? ?????????? ??????? ?? ???????? ? ???? ???????????? ??? ????????? ? ????????? ? ? ?????????, ?? ???? ?????????????? ?????????????? ????, ??? ?????? ???????????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ? ?????? ????????????? ????????. | The sarcasm of the Estonian colleague did not prompt me, too, to reconsider my attitude to the revolution and to Marxism, but provided additional proof that a false political position very often goes hand in hand with a false theoretical position. | | ???????, ????? ?????????? ??????? ?????????????? ?????????. ????? ???????????? ???????? ? ????????? ? ???????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ? ???????????. | However, here it is necessary to make a fundamental clarification. The connection between political sympathies and antipathies with scientific views is far from simple and unambiguous. | | ?? ????, ??? ???????? ?????????????? ????? ? ????????????? ???????? ? ???????? ?????? ?? ???????, ??? ??? ????????????? ??????? ???????. ? ??? ? ????? ???????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?.?.?????????? ? ??? ???????????? ???????????? ???????? ??? ???????? ???????? ? ???????? ?????? ????????. | From the fact that the theorist adheres to the left and progressive views in politics does not automatically follow that his theoretical views are true. And I'm ready to show an example of the same Vygotsky and his favorite Marx's aphorism about the human anatomy and the anatomy of apes. | | ???? ?????? ? ?????????????? ?????????? ? ???????????????? ??? ???????? ????????? ????????????????. ????????? ??????? ????????? ??? ?????????? ??????? ??????????? ????????, ?? ???????????? ?????????? ??????? ????????????? ??? ????????, ??????? (??????????) ??? ???????. ?? ???? ?? ???????? ?? ?? ???????????? ? ???????????, ??, ?? ???????????? ? ???????, ??????????? ??????????, ???????? ???????????? ????????????? ???????? ????????, ?????????? ?????. | My first and fundamental reproach to the theorizing of LSV is reproach methodological. Vygotsky undertakes to discuss the so-called "higher mental functions" without having to worry about defining the functions "natural" or "inferior", the psyche (zoopsyche) as such. That is, he does not ascend from the abstract to the concrete. Not having understood a simple, abstract basis, he proceeds to a theoretical analysis of the most developed, concrete forms. | | ? ??? ?? ????????? ??????????. ? ??????????? ??????, ????????? ????????????? ?????? LSV ????????? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????????? ?????????, ??????? ???????? ?????? ? ????????? ?????????. ? ?????????, ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ? ??????????? ????? ?????? LSV ?? ????????. ????? ???, ??? ????, ????? ?????????? ????? ?????? ? ????? ??????????? ?? ???????????? ? ??????????? - ????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????????????? | Moreover, this is not an accidental oversight. In support of his specific method, which was strictly reverse of the Marxist one, Vygotsky refers to ... the aphorism of Marx himself about "human anatomy", which is the key to the "anatomy of ape". Unfortunately, nothing beyond this quote in support of this method LSV did not leave us. Meanwhile, in order to overturn the method of Marx - the method of ascent from the abstract to the concrete - one misunderstood quotation of Marx himself is clearly not enough ... | | ???????, ??? ? ?????? ?????? ??? ???????????? ????? ??? ?????????????? ? ??? ?? ?????? ? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????????? ????? ???????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????????????, ???????????? ?????????. ????? ????, ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???????, ??????????????? ???????? ?? ????? ???? ????????? ?????? ??? ????????? ???????????? ?? ???????????? ? ????????????. | Let us note that Marx himself does not have a contradiction between his "ascent" and his thought about the key role of the image of the whole for understanding the development of this whole from its elementary, abstract foundation. Moreover, one cannot be understood without the other, an "anatomical" metaphor cannot be correctly understood outside the context of "ascension from the abstract to the concrete." | | ? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???: ??????????????????, ? ?????????????, ??????????????????????????.??????? ?? ?????? ? ?????? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????, ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?????????. ?? ???: ?? ??? ????????????? ?????? ??????? ? ???????? ? ?????? ????????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????????????? ??? ???????????.? | In Marx, this idea sounds like this: "Human anatomy contains a key to the anatomy of the ape. The intimations of higher development among the subordinate animal species, however, can be understood only after the higher development is already known. In addition: ??in the theoretical method, too, the subject, society, must always be kept in mind as the presupposition?. | | ???? ? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ? ???, ??? ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????, ??? ????????. ??????, ????????, ?????????? ????? ???? ????????????? ?????? ?????? ? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???????????? ????????????? ????????????? ? ??????????? ????? ??????????? ? ????? ??????????. ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ? ??? ??????, ????, ???????? ? ?????????? ??????????, ? ??????????? ?????????? ?? ???????? ?? ???? ??????, ?? ? ???? ???????????, ??????? ?? ?????????? ? ????? ??????, ? ??????, ????? ?? ??????? ? ???? ??? ????????? ???????????? ??????. ? ? ???? ?????? ??????? ????????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????? ? ??????????? ???????????? ????? ???????????, ????????? ??????. | In any way, Marx does not affirm that "higher" can be understood earlier than ?inferior? can. The higher, the developed, the concrete can be really understood only if we could systematically theoretically reproduce the origin and genesis of this concrete in the very reality itself. However, this is possible only if, beginning with the ultimate abstraction, with the famous "germ cell" we are moving not just anywhere, but to the concrete one, which we actually want to understand, and so, in order not to lose our way, we need an original compass. Moreover, the role of such a compass is played by the image of a concrete whole, seized by an aesthetically and morally developed imagination. | | ???, ???? ?? ????? ?????? ???????????? ????????, ???????????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ??????????, ???, ??????? ?????????????? ? ???????????? ???????, ??????? ? ???????? ?????? ???????? ?????????? ????????? ???????????? ????????. ? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????????? ???????? ????? ???????????? ????? ????????, ????? ??????????? ?????????????????? ?????????? ?????????????? ??? ?????????? ???. ??, ???????? ???????????? ???????? ?? ????????? ? ???? ???, ? ???? ???????. ? ????? ?????? ? ????? ??????? ????????? ? ???????? ??????????? ?? ???????????? ? ??????????? ???? ???????????? ???? ????. ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ? ??????? ?????, ???????? ??????????? ????????? ?????????. | Therefore, if we want to understand the human consciousness, the human psyche, we must first find an elementary abstraction, the one that really exists, which in the process of its development necessarily generates human consciousness. From our point of view, this phenomenon is the most elementary living organism, reflecting the objective world that opposes it with its vital activity. But, the developed human consciousness does not arise in one step. Moreover, in order to understand in which direction to move in the process of ascent from the abstract to the concrete one, one must imagine a goal. It is about the image of this goal that Marx says, referring to the notorious "human anatomy". | | ??? ?????, ???????? ?? ???????? ????????? ?????? ? ??????????? ?????????, ??????? ? ????? ???????? ?? ???? ??????, ?? ????? ??????? ????????????? ????????, ??????????? ???????? ?? ???????? ? ??????? ????????, ???????, ???? ? ????????, ??? ?????? ????????????? ? ??????????? ???????? ??????????? ???????? ?????????? ????? ??????????? ????????? ?????? ???????????????, ?? ??? ??????-?????????????? ???????. | Marx himself, moving from simple commodity exchange to surplus value, profit and rent did not move anywhere, but along the vector of historical development, the direction of which he guessed with the help of Shakespeare, Moliere, Goethe and Balzac, for only an artistically and morally developed imagination is capable of retaining the image historically developed whole directly, before his scientific and theoretical analysis. | | ?????? ???, ? ???????????? ? ??????? ????????, ???????? ?? ???????????? ? ??????????? ????? ?????? ? ???????? ????????? ????????. | Only in this way, in accordance with the method of Capital, moving from the abstract to the concrete one can come to a scientific understanding of the subject. | | ????????, ???? ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ??????????, ?? ????? ????????? ??????????????, ??? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ????????? ?????? ??????? ??????, ?? ??????? ? ????? ??? ????? ????????? ?????????? ??????????? ??????????? ? ????, ???????????, ?????????? ????????, ??? ? ?? ??????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????????, ????????????? ???????????, ? ?????? ??? ? ?? ?????????? ?? ??????? ???????????? ???????????, ?????????. | On the contrary, if we take a look at Vygotsky's theorizing, we will have to admit that, contrary to his sincere desire to follow the old classic's method, he was stuck in a more or less casual contemplation of empirically concrete - speech, experiences, age crises, and without trying to grope for their real path , historical formation, and thus never having risen to the level of a theoretically concrete, level of scientifically true. | | ?????????, ??? ? ????????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ?????????, ??? ???? ?????? ???????????? ???? ? ???????????????? ????????? ????????????? ????????, ??, ? ?????????, ??? ? ?? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ???????????? ???????? ?? ???? ?????????????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?????????? ??? ???????????. | Vygotsky, like many of his colleagues, rightly noted that speech plays an essential role in the functioning of the developed human consciousness, but, unfortunately, they could not go beyond arbitrary fantasies about the mysterious "interweaving" of it with an equally mysterious "thinking". | | ?????? ?????? ???????? ??????????, ??? ????????????, ?????????????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ???????????? ?????????, ?? ????? ?? ??????????? ? ???????????????? ??????? ???????????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????????? (? ?????? ?????? ? ????????? ??? ???? ?? ??????????????), ?? ??????????? ????????? ? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ????????????? ???? ?????????????? ? ?????????????? ????? ????????? ?????????, ?????????? ?? ????? ??????????????? ???????. | This example is especially characteristic, because rational, dialectical logic consists not in describing individual random empirical phenomena, not through their "generalization" and unproductive attempts to establish between them certain special relations (in this case - the relationship of the same "intertwining"), but in finding in the very nature of the thing of its simple living foundation and tracing the path of self-discrimination and differentiation of this universal basis, the generation of its opposite organs. | | ????????????? ????????? ?????????, ??????????? ????????? ? ?????? ??????????? ?? ???????? ?????????? ????? (?????????? ????????????) ??????, ?? ????????? ????????? ??????????? ? ????? ??????????? ? ??????????? ?????????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ? ??????????, ?????????, ????? ?????? ????????????? ? ??????????????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ? ???????????. | The specific "human anatomy", as a reference point, allowing to move in the right direction from the initial abstraction of life (object-oriented activity) in general, from the "anatomy of ape" is in a truly aesthetically and morally grasped image of a free man and citizen, actively, with his labor producing and reproducing life in all its forms and manifestations. | | ????? ??????, ??? ??????, ??????? ? ???? ?????????? ? ???????????? ? ???????????? ????? ???????? ? ??? ??????? ??????????. ????????? ?????? ???????. ??, ???????, ? ???????????? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ????? ? ??????? ?????????? ???????????? ???? ? ?????? ????? ????? ????????? ????? ?????????? ???, ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????????? ???? ?????????? ????? ????? ?????? ???????????? ????????????, ? ?????? ? ???? ??? ???????????? (????????) ??????????? ???-?? ????????? ? ?????????????. ?? ???? ???? ????????, ??? ????? ?????????? ????????????? ???????????? ???????? ????????????? ?????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????-?? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????, ????? ???, ????????? ??? ???????????? ??????? ???????????? ???????????? ? ???????? ????? ? ?????? ??????? ????????????? ??????????, ???????? ????? ????????? ?? ??????? ????? ? ????? ????????? ????? ??????????? ????????????, ???????????? ?????. ??????? ? ?????????? ????????, ???????? ?????? ????? ???????????? ?? ????????? ??????? ??????, ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???????????? ?????????, ?? ??????????? ?????????? ????????, ???????? ???????????? ??????????? ??? ????????? ??????????? ???, ??? ? ??????? ? ???????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ?????????, ???? ????? ????. ?????????????? ???????????? ? ???????????? ??????? ??? ????????? ???????? ?? ?????????? ?? ????????? ??????? ?????? ? ?? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????? ?????, ?? ??????? ex professo, ?? ??????? ? ???????? ? ???????? ???????????. | In other words, for Marx, Spinoza, and even Anaxagoras, the moral and aesthetic ideal of man is a working man. To work is to think. Yes, of course, there is a division of labor in human society and today concrete human labor and instruments of this labor are divided among individuals so that to an individual there is only an infinitesimal part of the instruments of human activity, and therefore its very activity (thinking) is somehow partial and one-sided. But it must be clearly understood that any abstract theoretical activity receives confirmation of its dignity as something true if and only if it was born as an integral part of practical activity and then fled to the skies of high theoretical abstractions and is able to return to sinful earth and become the principle of a new sensory activity, the activity of a stroke. Man is an active being, who first of all is opposed not by the obedient matter of signs, which he can cut at his own will, but practically an active being, which is opposed by the sensual world, which is disobedient to his will, a world whose forms and laws a man has to reckon with if he wants to live. Accordingly, the moral and aesthetic ideal for a Marxist is not a specialist in the composition of crafty signs and in ingenious formal handling of these signs, not an ideologist ex professo, but a man as a worker, a man as an artist, and a man as a materialist theorist. | | ? ? ????? ?????????? ?????????? ??????????????, ??? ?.?.?????????, ??? ???? ??? ????????? ?????????? ? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????, ? ???? ?????? ???????? ? ????? ??????????????? ?? ????????? ???????. ??? ?? ????????? ????????????????? ?????? ? ?????, ??????????? ????????, ??? ????? ???????? ????? ? ???????, ??? ????????????????? ????????? ?????????? ???? ????????, ?? ?? ? ???? ?????? ?? ?????????. ??? ?????????? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ???????????? ? ??????? ??????????? ????????? ? ???? ???????????? ??????????, ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???????? ????????? ? ??????????? ???????????? ? ????? ????, ???????? ??????????? ????????????, ???????? sine qua non ?????????, ? ??? ???????, ???? ?? ???????????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??-???????? ? ??? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ?????? ? ?????????? ?? ??????? ????. | In the light of what has been said, we must state that LS Vygotsky, with all his sincere assurances of his desire to follow in the footsteps of Marx, moved at this point in the direction directly opposite from Marxism. So he carefully contrasts tools and signs, emphasizing in every possible way that between the tools of labor and signs, or "psychological tools," there is only an analogy, but in no way an identity. That the "thinking" of a person is only the operation with the data obtained by the individual in the act of sense perception, which in itself has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, and moreover, is a prerequisite, the condition of sine qua non of the latter, and that the main, if not the only task of thinking is essentially reduced to the so-called "generalization" of sensory data and the appropriation of generic names for them. | | ?? ????????? ????????, ???, ??????? ?????? ??????????, ???????? ?????????? ? ???????? ??????, ??? ?????, ? ??????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ? ???? ??????????? ?? ???????????? ? ???????????, ??? ?????????, ??? ?????????? ????????????? ??? ????? ?????? ? ????????? ??? ?????????? ??? ?? ??????? ?????, ?? ???????? ??????? ? ??? ????????????? ???????? (??? ????????) ? ???? ???????? ?????, ?????????? ??????????????? ??????. | But what has been said means that, contrary to the good wishes, a real guide in the movement of the theory, the goal to which the theoretician should move in the act of ascension from the abstract to the concrete, that being whose "anatomy" was regarded as something supreme and ideal for Vygotsky was not working man, but a typical ideologist with his universal master key (or flail) in the form of a crafty word, a verbal ideological sign. | | ?? ?????????? ?????? ?? ????, ????? ???????? ?.?.?????????? ? ???? ????? ? ?????-?? ?????? ???????????? ? ?????????? ??????????. ??? ?????, ??? ? ???? ????? ? ??????? ??????????????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??????????. ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???????? ? ??????????? ????????????????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????/????????? ? ??? ?????????????, ???????????????????? ???????? ??????????????? ?????. ?? ???? ???????? ??????. ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????????, ??? ? ????? ???????????????? ?.?.?????????, ??-??????, ?? ??? ?? ???????????? ? ???????????, ??? ??? ? ?? ????????? ? ???????? ????? ??? ???????, ? ?????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????, ??????????? ????? ???????????? ???? ????????????, ???????? ??????????? ???????, ????????, ????????????? ???????? ? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ???????? ? ??? ????????? (????????). ?, ??-??????, ??? ????????? ????????, ????????? ?? ?????? ??????????????? ????????????? ? ???, ??? ??????????? ???????? ???????? ??? ? ??????? ????? ????????????? ???????????????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ??????????????? ? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?????????? ????????????, ? ???????? ???? ?????????? ? ?????????? ??, ?????????? ?????????? ?????? ? ?? ????????????, ? ?? ??????????. ????? ??????, ?????????? ??????????????, ??? ????????????? ??????????? ?.?.?????????? ????? ?? ???????????? ? ???????????? ??????. | We are infinitely far from reproaching Vygotsky for this reason in some bad moral and social attitudes. Moreover, in this very typical idealistic scheme, he was not at all original. Exactly the same scheme for the misleading unprepared reader of the title "Marxism and the philosophy of language" left us Bakhtin / Voloshinov with his brilliant, self-revealing term "ideological sign". But the facts are facts. Calling things by their proper names, we must admit that in his theorizing LS Vygotsky, first, did not go from the abstract to the concrete, for he did not discern in the phenomenon of life as such, in the object-oriented relation of the subject to the world, positing by his activity the realm of his objectivity, the most abstract phenomenon, the development, the concretization of which is nothing more than the development of human activity, that is, the person with his consciousness ("psyche"). And, secondly, his conception of thinking, proceeding from the purely sensationalist notion that sensations are "given" to us by means of a purely mechanical functioning of the so-called "sense organs", irrespective of any kind of object-oriented activity, and thinking is only "Generalization" and designation with the help of their signs, of course infinitely far from both materialism and dialectics. In other words, we have to state that the theoretical reflections of Vygotsky do not fit into Marxist logic. | | ? ???? ??????, ? ??????????? ?????????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????????? ? ???????, ?????????? ???????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????????. ?? ??? ??????? ?????????? ?? ??????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ??????????????? ??????. | At this point, in the non-Marxism of Vygotsky, our conclusion at first glance coincides with the thesis persistently propagated today by the right-wing Vygotskians. But with an external coincidence, there is a diametrically opposite reason behind a similar conclusion. | | ???????????? ???? ?? ????????? ? ???? ??????? ???????? ? ????, ???, ??-??????, ??? ? ????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ?? ???, ?? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ???????????? ??????????, ?, ??-??????, ??? ? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????, ??? ??? ?????????? ? ??? ?????? ? ?????????????? ?????????, ??????? ????? ?????? ???????? ?????????, ???? ?? ??????? ????????? ?? ?? ??? ?????????. ????????? ????? ???? ?????????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?????????, ????? ?? ????????? ??????????????. | The argument of the same Yasnitsky in this matter boils down to the fact that, first, like the "all" Soviet theorists, Vygotsky was not, but only had to pretend to be a Marxist, and secondly, that there was no big trouble, for "Marxism" itself is an empty and unproductive ideology that could only hinder the theorist, if he seriously tried to lean on it. The weight of both these arguments, we will not even discuss, because of their obvious inadequacy. | | ????????, ? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ???????????? ?????????? ?? ????? ?????????????? ????????????? ??????? ? ??????????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?????????????? ???????, ?? ???????????? ????????? ??????????????? ????????????? ???????, ? ?????? ????? ???????? ???????????? ????????? ???????. ?????? ?????????????? ???? ? ????? ???????????? ????? ? ???????????? ???????? ???????? ??????? ?.?.????????? ? ?.?.?????????, ???? ? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ? ???????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ??????? (????????????) ??????. | On the contrary, in Vygotsky's failure to lay the foundation of Marxist psychology, we see a real theoretical failure and see for it not some external ideological reasons, but the unsettledness of some of the fundamental theoretical problems, and above all the problem of an adequate, materialistic understanding of Spinoza's ideas. The first real steps to the new Marxist science of human consciousness happened to Leontiev and Ilyenkov, although they did only the very first steps on this path and bequeathed us the task of developing a truly scientific (Marxist) theory. | ??: Andy Blunden ????: David Kellogg ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ??????????: ?????, 22 ?????? 2017 3:01 ????: [Xmca-l] Re: The Anatomy of the Ape Well, my interpretation has long been the Hegelian one, David, and knowing that Marx studied the Philosophy of Right quite closely, I guess that was Marx's allusion, too. Much as I admire Terrell Carver, I cannot connect that to nostalgia at all. Funnily enough it was this aphorism that marked my very first glimpse of CHAT internal politics. It was around 1998 that I was recommended to read a book by Jan Valsiner by a colleague at the University of Melbourne, which I duly did. I can't remember which book , but I emailed Jan and challenged his negative comment on the "anatomy of the ape" aphorism. I spoke up in its defence, stupidly pointing out that it was a quote from Marx. How naive was I, thinking that pointing out that some claim was a quote from Marx in some way settled an argument. Vasliner simply replied: "Yes, Marx was wrong." That did not turn me off Vygotsky or Marx, but I did go in search of other introductory works, and I think it was then that I found Lois Holzman. Andy Andy Blunden http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm On 22/11/2017 10:47 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > Thanks, Andy--that's the answer I was looking for. T. > Carver argues that what Marx is really saying in this > passage is that our appreciation of ancient Greek art is a > kind of nostalgia for slave times. That's certainly true > in some places (it explains Mussolini's neo-classicism, > the appreciation of Classical culture in the slave-owning > South, etc.). But nostalgia really is teleological: it is > a longing for naivete, innocence, and temps perdu. I think > this passage says something very different: any language > contains its own history. That's all. It doesn't imply > that a language is reducible to a history or a history can > be elaborated into the whole language. Shakespeare's > Troilus and Cressida "contains" Homer, but that doesn't > mean that it is Homer for grown-ups. > > David > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 8:19 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > >? ? The aphorism was reproduced in >? ? https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/index.htm >? ? >? ? , Appendix 1, published in German in Berlin in 1859, >? ? most of >? ? which is found verbatim in The Grundrisse. > >? ? Andy > > >? ? ------------------------------------------------------------ >? ? Andy Blunden >? ? http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm >? ? >? ? On 22/11/2017 10:08 AM, David Kellogg wrote: >? ? > Vygotsky cites, in the Historical Meaning of the >? ? Crisis of Psychology, >? ? > Marx's rather cryptic remark in the Grundrisse about >? ? human anatomy holding >? ? > the key to the anatomy of the ape. He uses this >? ? elsewhere (in his >? ? > discussions of psychotechnics and pedology) and >? ? obviously finds it an >? ? > important remark. More, he is perfectly aware of its >? ? non-teleological >? ? > character: he knows that saying that humans >? ? developed from apes is not the >? ? > same thing as saying that apes are fated to become >? ? humans. >? ? > >? ? > But how did Vygotsky know this? As far as I can >? ? figure out, the Grundrisse >? ? > wasn't published until 1939, five years after >? ? Vygotsky's death. Did >? ? > Vygotsky have privileged access? Or is there some >? ? other place where Marx >? ? > says this that I don't know about? >? ? > >? ? > David Kellogg >? ? > >? ? > > > From smago@uga.edu Wed Nov 29 09:11:21 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 17:11:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Carmen-Hurricane relief Message-ID: Mi amiga Carmen Martinez-Roldan sent this request about helping Puerto Rico, which has fallen out of the news but remains devastated by the hurricane. I know we are all getting endless requests to support charities at this time of year, so I hope this isn?t unwelcome or one too many. But given their shabby treatment by our government, I hope it can generate some donations. Thx,p From: Martinez-Roldan, Carmen [mailto:cmm2259@tc.columbia.edu] Querido Peter, we haven't talked for a while. I hope you are doing well, taking care of your very beautiful garden. I have been in PR where I lived through the storm. I'll write more later but wanted to ask for your help to spread this invitation to help me fund a school's library. The storm ripped off the library's ceiling and they lost all their books. Please, share the link as you like: https://www.gofundme.com/childrens-books-gone-with-hurrican I also want to share a statement I wrote for LRA. It will be read at the Town Hall Meeting. Thought you would be interested in learning about my experience. Best, Carmen -- Carmen M. Mart?nez-Rold?n, Ph.D. Associate Professor Program Director, Bilingual/Bicultural Education Program Department of Arts & Humanities Teachers College, Box 122 Columbia University 525 West 120th Street New York, NY 10027 (212) 678-3218 cmm2259@tc.columbia.edu -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Carmen M-R 11-28 LRA Statement Town Hall meeting.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 83311 bytes Desc: Carmen M-R 11-28 LRA Statement Town Hall meeting.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20171129/34745c21/attachment.pdf From feine@duq.edu Wed Nov 29 12:38:25 2017 From: feine@duq.edu (Elizabeth Fein) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 15:38:25 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] CFP: Society for Qualitative Inquiry in Psychology 2018 Conference Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Attached please find our Call for Proposals for our Annual Conference, to be held on May 21st and 22nd at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh, PA. The Society for Qualitative Inquiry in Psychology is a subdivision of the American Psychological Association, and we advocate for the development and inclusion of qualitative methods in research on topics related to psychology in all its many forms. We are soliciting proposals for symposia, individual papers and posters, and conversation hours. Please circulate this announcement far and wide, and please consider participating in this year's exciting event. We hope to see you in May! Best, The Society for Qualitative Inquiry in Psychology Program Committee and Host Committee -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SQIP Call for Proposals 2018 .pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 919283 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20171129/f15a48bf/attachment-0001.pdf From jamesma320@gmail.com Thu Nov 30 03:12:05 2017 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 11:12:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: <875fc1243a9c68d4d0c23b4e9b2ce23f.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> <875fc1243a9c68d4d0c23b4e9b2ce23f.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: This thread of emails seems to be fading away. I?ve been quietly following it because the "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" heading catches my eyes and resonates within me in many ways. Here, I?d just like to say perhaps one thing before this thread finally disappears! Higher education in the UK is increasingly becoming rampant due to widening participation. This has created a distinction between research-intensive universities (the Russell Group institutions) and teaching-intensive universities (the post-1992 institutions, i.e. former polytechnics or colleges of higher education that were given university status in 1992 or thereafter). It seems that, when it comes to theory, the road begins to fork: in one direction, theory-laden and academic; in the other, practice-driven and vocational, coupled with (what can be) a resistance to thinking endowed with philosophy and reasoning. These two directions can contrast sharply, almost to the point of mutual exclusion, given their differing ontological and epistemological positions. For me, learner autonomy and the potential for transformation must be deemed vital to the student experience. Knowledge and scholarship is to be situated at the core of teaching and learning. However, a utilitarianist approach to British higher education is seemingly looming up especially in an environment where *how-you-are-smart* predominates *how-smart-you-are*; this may have deepened an existing ontological chasm between what might be termed traditional and non-traditional academic staff. Might such an approach create psychological conflicts within a practice-dominant orientation ? in particular, when the contradicting ego state struggles to find a balance between the existing self and compliance with what is, supposedly, an academic norm? As far as academism is concerned, theoretical knowledge is of universally crucial importance, albeit variably constructed in different cultures. However sharply critical or critically sharp an individual mind may be (either in learning or in teaching), with an absence of theoretical engagement, the university world ? here I like to quote what Charlotte Bloch says in her book *Passion and Paranoia: Emotions and the Culture of Emotion in Academia*: ?generally associated with rationality, methodological principles, objectivity and logical argument? ? can represent a dead end. Last year I wrote an article for *Social Semiotics*: ?Semiotising the student perception of learning outcomes in British higher education? https://doi.org/10.1080/10350330.2016.1189234, in which I argue for intellectualism as central to the ethnography of university life. Finally, on a different note, I hope Vera is getting better soon. I still remember her talking with me about my PhD in 2001 during her visit to Bristol University and how much I benefited from her 10 lectures on Vygotsky. James *_____________________________________* *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa * On 27 November 2017 at 05:58, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > Dear Vera, > > One of the paths of influence goes through here, the city of Istanbul. I > just talked with hundreds of young people in Turkey about the significance > of supportive childhood environment in the later development of creativity > in arts and sciences. "Notebooks," are in our minds.. Thinking of you > and missing you, Artin > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > On Sun, November 26, 2017 4:43 pm, Kris Gutierrez wrote: > > ?We are all Vera? as they say; as your influence, Vera, continues to > > be profound and wide. We are all indebted to you. Thinking of you, > > Abrazos, Kris > > > > Kris D. Guti?rrez > > Carol Liu Professor > > Graduate School of Education > > Prolepsis Design Collaborative > > Member, National Academy of Education > > University of California, Berkeley > > 5629 Tolman Hall > > Berkeley, CA 94720-1670 > > gutierrkd@berkeley.edu > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Nov 26, 2017, at 8:07 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> > >> A LOT of people are thinking of you Vera. Generations of scholars are in > >> your debt, and > >> Working to continue along the paths you have us to. > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 4:38 AM Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > >> > >>> I second that emotion! > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:24 AM > >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; > >>> vygotsky@unm.edu > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies > >>> and > >>> junky degrees" > >>> > >>> Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a message > >>> is > >>> also always a joy. > >>> Alfredo > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> on behalf of Vera John-Steiner > >>> Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 > >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, > >>> crybabies > >>> and junky degrees" > >>> > >>> Annalisa, > >>> > >>> I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very > >>> poorly, I > >>> am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I am > >>> particularly tired. He has recovered well. > >>> > >>> I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. > >>> > >>> Do let me know what is new with you. > >>> > >>> Love, > >>> > >>> Vera > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and > >>> junky degrees" > >>> > >>> Hi fellow Xmcats, > >>> > >>> > >>> Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. > >>> > >>> > >>> Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the > >>> future of US universities these days. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ > >>> < > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > >>>> > >>> < > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> < > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > >>>> > >>> > >>> What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must > >>> everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. > >>> > >>> > >>> There is also mention of a Pew study here: > >>> > >>> > >>> http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/ > 2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf > >>> > >>> > >>> (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, > >>> given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) > >>> > >>> > >>> And also mentioned: > >>> http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx > >>> > >>> > >>> If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms > >>> of > >>> the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock > >>> wears > >>> off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. > >>> > >>> > >>> Just I thought I would pass this on. > >>> > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Nov 30 04:04:35 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:04:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> <875fc1243a9c68d4d0c23b4e9b2ce23f.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu>, Message-ID: <1512043463032.43146@iped.uio.no> Hi James, thanks for the relevant comments and for keeping the thread alive. Before I can add more to the topic of education itself and what our role as educators and learners may be in this time of corporative capitalist knowledge production, I wanted to just note that threads do not fade away; WE let them fade. So it is up to all (and any) of us to keep them awake, or to re-awake them anytime after they had seemed to have completely disappeared. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of James Ma Sent: 30 November 2017 12:12 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" This thread of emails seems to be fading away. I?ve been quietly following it because the "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" heading catches my eyes and resonates within me in many ways. Here, I?d just like to say perhaps one thing before this thread finally disappears! Higher education in the UK is increasingly becoming rampant due to widening participation. This has created a distinction between research-intensive universities (the Russell Group institutions) and teaching-intensive universities (the post-1992 institutions, i.e. former polytechnics or colleges of higher education that were given university status in 1992 or thereafter). It seems that, when it comes to theory, the road begins to fork: in one direction, theory-laden and academic; in the other, practice-driven and vocational, coupled with (what can be) a resistance to thinking endowed with philosophy and reasoning. These two directions can contrast sharply, almost to the point of mutual exclusion, given their differing ontological and epistemological positions. For me, learner autonomy and the potential for transformation must be deemed vital to the student experience. Knowledge and scholarship is to be situated at the core of teaching and learning. However, a utilitarianist approach to British higher education is seemingly looming up especially in an environment where *how-you-are-smart* predominates *how-smart-you-are*; this may have deepened an existing ontological chasm between what might be termed traditional and non-traditional academic staff. Might such an approach create psychological conflicts within a practice-dominant orientation ? in particular, when the contradicting ego state struggles to find a balance between the existing self and compliance with what is, supposedly, an academic norm? As far as academism is concerned, theoretical knowledge is of universally crucial importance, albeit variably constructed in different cultures. However sharply critical or critically sharp an individual mind may be (either in learning or in teaching), with an absence of theoretical engagement, the university world ? here I like to quote what Charlotte Bloch says in her book *Passion and Paranoia: Emotions and the Culture of Emotion in Academia*: ?generally associated with rationality, methodological principles, objectivity and logical argument? ? can represent a dead end. Last year I wrote an article for *Social Semiotics*: ?Semiotising the student perception of learning outcomes in British higher education? https://doi.org/10.1080/10350330.2016.1189234, in which I argue for intellectualism as central to the ethnography of university life. Finally, on a different note, I hope Vera is getting better soon. I still remember her talking with me about my PhD in 2001 during her visit to Bristol University and how much I benefited from her 10 lectures on Vygotsky. James *_____________________________________* *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa * On 27 November 2017 at 05:58, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > Dear Vera, > > One of the paths of influence goes through here, the city of Istanbul. I > just talked with hundreds of young people in Turkey about the significance > of supportive childhood environment in the later development of creativity > in arts and sciences. "Notebooks," are in our minds.. Thinking of you > and missing you, Artin > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > On Sun, November 26, 2017 4:43 pm, Kris Gutierrez wrote: > > ?We are all Vera? as they say; as your influence, Vera, continues to > > be profound and wide. We are all indebted to you. Thinking of you, > > Abrazos, Kris > > > > Kris D. Guti?rrez > > Carol Liu Professor > > Graduate School of Education > > Prolepsis Design Collaborative > > Member, National Academy of Education > > University of California, Berkeley > > 5629 Tolman Hall > > Berkeley, CA 94720-1670 > > gutierrkd@berkeley.edu > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Nov 26, 2017, at 8:07 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> > >> A LOT of people are thinking of you Vera. Generations of scholars are in > >> your debt, and > >> Working to continue along the paths you have us to. > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 4:38 AM Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > >> > >>> I second that emotion! > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:24 AM > >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; > >>> vygotsky@unm.edu > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies > >>> and > >>> junky degrees" > >>> > >>> Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a message > >>> is > >>> also always a joy. > >>> Alfredo > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> on behalf of Vera John-Steiner > >>> Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 > >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, > >>> crybabies > >>> and junky degrees" > >>> > >>> Annalisa, > >>> > >>> I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very > >>> poorly, I > >>> am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I am > >>> particularly tired. He has recovered well. > >>> > >>> I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. > >>> > >>> Do let me know what is new with you. > >>> > >>> Love, > >>> > >>> Vera > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and > >>> junky degrees" > >>> > >>> Hi fellow Xmcats, > >>> > >>> > >>> Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. > >>> > >>> > >>> Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the > >>> future of US universities these days. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ > >>> < > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > >>>> > >>> < > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> < > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > >>>> > >>> > >>> What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must > >>> everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. > >>> > >>> > >>> There is also mention of a Pew study here: > >>> > >>> > >>> http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/ > 2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf > >>> > >>> > >>> (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, > >>> given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) > >>> > >>> > >>> And also mentioned: > >>> http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx > >>> > >>> > >>> If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms > >>> of > >>> the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock > >>> wears > >>> off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. > >>> > >>> > >>> Just I thought I would pass this on. > >>> > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > From jamesma320@gmail.com Thu Nov 30 04:14:44 2017 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:14:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: <1512043463032.43146@iped.uio.no> References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> <875fc1243a9c68d4d0c23b4e9b2ce23f.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> <1512043463032.43146@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Thank you Alfredo! James 2017?11?30? ??12:07?"Alfredo Jornet Gil" ??? Hi James, thanks for the relevant comments and for keeping the thread alive. Before I can add more to the topic of education itself and what our role as educators and learners may be in this time of corporative capitalist knowledge production, I wanted to just note that threads do not fade away; WE let them fade. So it is up to all (and any) of us to keep them awake, or to re-awake them anytime after they had seemed to have completely disappeared. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of James Ma Sent: 30 November 2017 12:12 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" This thread of emails seems to be fading away. I?ve been quietly following it because the "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" heading catches my eyes and resonates within me in many ways. Here, I?d just like to say perhaps one thing before this thread finally disappears! Higher education in the UK is increasingly becoming rampant due to widening participation. This has created a distinction between research-intensive universities (the Russell Group institutions) and teaching-intensive universities (the post-1992 institutions, i.e. former polytechnics or colleges of higher education that were given university status in 1992 or thereafter). It seems that, when it comes to theory, the road begins to fork: in one direction, theory-laden and academic; in the other, practice-driven and vocational, coupled with (what can be) a resistance to thinking endowed with philosophy and reasoning. These two directions can contrast sharply, almost to the point of mutual exclusion, given their differing ontological and epistemological positions. For me, learner autonomy and the potential for transformation must be deemed vital to the student experience. Knowledge and scholarship is to be situated at the core of teaching and learning. However, a utilitarianist approach to British higher education is seemingly looming up especially in an environment where *how-you-are-smart* predominates *how-smart-you-are*; this may have deepened an existing ontological chasm between what might be termed traditional and non-traditional academic staff. Might such an approach create psychological conflicts within a practice-dominant orientation ? in particular, when the contradicting ego state struggles to find a balance between the existing self and compliance with what is, supposedly, an academic norm? As far as academism is concerned, theoretical knowledge is of universally crucial importance, albeit variably constructed in different cultures. However sharply critical or critically sharp an individual mind may be (either in learning or in teaching), with an absence of theoretical engagement, the university world ? here I like to quote what Charlotte Bloch says in her book *Passion and Paranoia: Emotions and the Culture of Emotion in Academia*: ?generally associated with rationality, methodological principles, objectivity and logical argument? ? can represent a dead end. Last year I wrote an article for *Social Semiotics*: ?Semiotising the student perception of learning outcomes in British higher education? https://doi.org/10.1080/10350330.2016.1189234, in which I argue for intellectualism as central to the ethnography of university life. Finally, on a different note, I hope Vera is getting better soon. I still remember her talking with me about my PhD in 2001 during her visit to Bristol University and how much I benefited from her 10 lectures on Vygotsky. James *_____________________________________* *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa * On 27 November 2017 at 05:58, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > Dear Vera, > > One of the paths of influence goes through here, the city of Istanbul. I > just talked with hundreds of young people in Turkey about the significance > of supportive childhood environment in the later development of creativity > in arts and sciences. "Notebooks," are in our minds.. Thinking of you > and missing you, Artin > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > On Sun, November 26, 2017 4:43 pm, Kris Gutierrez wrote: > > ?We are all Vera? as they say; as your influence, Vera, continues to > > be profound and wide. We are all indebted to you. Thinking of you, > > Abrazos, Kris > > > > Kris D. Guti?rrez > > Carol Liu Professor > > Graduate School of Education > > Prolepsis Design Collaborative > > Member, National Academy of Education > > University of California, Berkeley > > 5629 Tolman Hall > > Berkeley, CA 94720-1670 > > gutierrkd@berkeley.edu > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Nov 26, 2017, at 8:07 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> > >> A LOT of people are thinking of you Vera. Generations of scholars are in > >> your debt, and > >> Working to continue along the paths you have us to. > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 4:38 AM Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: > >> > >>> I second that emotion! > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:24 AM > >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; > >>> vygotsky@unm.edu > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies > >>> and > >>> junky degrees" > >>> > >>> Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a message > >>> is > >>> also always a joy. > >>> Alfredo > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> on behalf of Vera John-Steiner > >>> Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 > >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, > >>> crybabies > >>> and junky degrees" > >>> > >>> Annalisa, > >>> > >>> I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very > >>> poorly, I > >>> am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I am > >>> particularly tired. He has recovered well. > >>> > >>> I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. > >>> > >>> Do let me know what is new with you. > >>> > >>> Love, > >>> > >>> Vera > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and > >>> junky degrees" > >>> > >>> Hi fellow Xmcats, > >>> > >>> > >>> Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. > >>> > >>> > >>> Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the > >>> future of US universities these days. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ > >>> < > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > >>>> > >>> < > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> < > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > >>>> > >>> > >>> What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why must > >>> everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. > >>> > >>> > >>> There is also mention of a Pew study here: > >>> > >>> > >>> http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/ > 2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf > >>> > >>> > >>> (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, > >>> given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) > >>> > >>> > >>> And also mentioned: > >>> http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx > >>> > >>> > >>> If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms > >>> of > >>> the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock > >>> wears > >>> off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. > >>> > >>> > >>> Just I thought I would pass this on. > >>> > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Nov 30 11:48:56 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 11:48:56 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> <875fc1243a9c68d4d0c23b4e9b2ce23f.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> <1512043463032.43146@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: At UCSD, an R1 university, there is now a position of "teaching professorship" which is a 9 course load, including a lot of big courses. The unmarked (regular?) faculty teach varying numbers of course from only 1-2 up to 4-5 depending upon their department and the amount of money they bring to the campus. All departments at this "public" university are being urged to create revenue-generating programs. The US congress appears to be poised to slam graduate training through its new tax policies and ditto university endowments. etc. mike On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:14 AM, James Ma wrote: > Thank you Alfredo! > James > > 2017?11?30? ??12:07?"Alfredo Jornet Gil" ??? > > Hi James, thanks for the relevant comments and for keeping the thread > alive. Before I can add more to the topic of education itself and what our > role as educators and learners may be in this time of corporative > capitalist knowledge production, I wanted to just note that threads do not > fade away; WE let them fade. So it is up to all (and any) of us to keep > them awake, or to re-awake them anytime after they had seemed to have > completely disappeared. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on > behalf of James Ma > Sent: 30 November 2017 12:12 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and > junky degrees" > > This thread of emails seems to be fading away. I?ve been quietly following > it because the "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" heading catches my > eyes and resonates within me in many ways. Here, I?d just like to say > perhaps one thing before this thread finally disappears! > > > Higher education in the UK is increasingly becoming rampant due to widening > participation. This has created a distinction between research-intensive > universities (the Russell Group institutions) and teaching-intensive > universities (the post-1992 institutions, i.e. former polytechnics or > colleges of higher education that were given university status in 1992 or > thereafter). It seems that, when it comes to theory, the road begins to > fork: in one direction, theory-laden and academic; in the other, > practice-driven and vocational, coupled with (what can be) a resistance to > thinking endowed with philosophy and reasoning. These two directions can > contrast sharply, almost to the point of mutual exclusion, given their > differing ontological and epistemological positions. > > > For me, learner autonomy and the potential for transformation must be > deemed vital to the student experience. Knowledge and scholarship is to be > situated at the core of teaching and learning. However, a utilitarianist > approach to British higher education is seemingly looming up especially in > an environment where *how-you-are-smart* predominates *how-smart-you-are*; > this may have deepened an existing ontological chasm between what might be > termed traditional and non-traditional academic staff. Might such an > approach create psychological conflicts within a practice-dominant > orientation ? in particular, when the contradicting ego state struggles to > find a balance between the existing self and compliance with what is, > supposedly, an academic norm? > > > As far as academism is concerned, theoretical knowledge is of universally > crucial importance, albeit variably constructed in different cultures. > However sharply critical or critically sharp an individual mind may be > (either in learning or in teaching), with an absence of theoretical > engagement, the university world ? here I like to quote what Charlotte > Bloch says in her book *Passion and Paranoia: Emotions and the Culture of > Emotion in Academia*: ?generally associated with rationality, > methodological principles, objectivity and logical argument? ? can > represent a dead end. > > > Last year I wrote an article for *Social Semiotics*: ?Semiotising the > student perception of learning outcomes in British higher education? > https://doi.org/10.1080/10350330.2016.1189234, in which I argue for > intellectualism as central to the ethnography of university life. > > > Finally, on a different note, I hope Vera is getting better soon. I still > remember her talking with me about my PhD in 2001 during her visit to > Bristol University and how much I benefited from her 10 lectures on > Vygotsky. > > > James > > > *_____________________________________* > > *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa > * > > > On 27 November 2017 at 05:58, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Vera, > > > > One of the paths of influence goes through here, the city of Istanbul. I > > just talked with hundreds of young people in Turkey about the > significance > > of supportive childhood environment in the later development of > creativity > > in arts and sciences. "Notebooks," are in our minds.. Thinking of you > > and missing you, Artin > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > Professor Emeritus, > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > College of Education M/C 147 > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > On Sun, November 26, 2017 4:43 pm, Kris Gutierrez wrote: > > > ?We are all Vera? as they say; as your influence, Vera, continues to > > > be profound and wide. We are all indebted to you. Thinking of you, > > > Abrazos, Kris > > > > > > Kris D. Guti?rrez > > > Carol Liu Professor > > > Graduate School of Education > > > Prolepsis Design Collaborative > > > Member, National Academy of Education > > > University of California, Berkeley > > > 5629 Tolman Hall > > > Berkeley, CA 94720-1670 > > > gutierrkd@berkeley.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Nov 26, 2017, at 8:07 AM, mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >> A LOT of people are thinking of you Vera. Generations of scholars are > in > > >> your debt, and > > >> Working to continue along the paths you have us to. > > >> > > >> Mike > > >> > > >> On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 4:38 AM Peter Smagorinsky > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> I second that emotion! > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >>> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:24 AM > > >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; > > >>> vygotsky@unm.edu > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies > > >>> and > > >>> junky degrees" > > >>> > > >>> Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a > message > > >>> is > > >>> also always a joy. > > >>> Alfredo > > >>> ________________________________________ > > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > >>> on behalf of Vera John-Steiner > > >>> Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 > > >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, > > >>> crybabies > > >>> and junky degrees" > > >>> > > >>> Annalisa, > > >>> > > >>> I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very > > >>> poorly, I > > >>> am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I > am > > >>> particularly tired. He has recovered well. > > >>> > > >>> I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. > > >>> > > >>> Do let me know what is new with you. > > >>> > > >>> Love, > > >>> > > >>> Vera > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and > > >>> junky degrees" > > >>> > > >>> Hi fellow Xmcats, > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping the > > >>> future of US universities these days. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ > > >>> < > > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > > >>>> > > >>> < > > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> < > > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why > must > > >>> everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> There is also mention of a Pew study here: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/ > > 2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last July, > > >>> given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> And also mentioned: > > >>> http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down-higher.aspx > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in terms > > >>> of > > >>> the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the shock > > >>> wears > > >>> off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Just I thought I would pass this on. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Kind regards, > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Annalisa > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- "The past isn't dead, it isn't even past." - William Faulkner From jamesma320@gmail.com Thu Nov 30 13:11:28 2017 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:11:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" In-Reply-To: References: <683801559.3744639.1511605917928@mail.yahoo.com> <008301d36684$10d447a0$327cd6e0$@edu> <1511699027791.28048@iped.uio.no> <875fc1243a9c68d4d0c23b4e9b2ce23f.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> <1512043463032.43146@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: So, knowledge is produced in order to be sold! Mike, do you have "buy one get ne free" degrees in America? https://www.theguardian.com/education/shortcuts/2016/aug/08/buy-one-get-one-free-degrees-higher-education-discount-pricing James On 30 November 2017 at 19:48, mike cole wrote: > At UCSD, an R1 university, there is now a position of "teaching > professorship" which is a 9 course load, including a lot of big courses. > The unmarked (regular?) faculty teach varying numbers of course from only > 1-2 up to 4-5 depending upon their department and the amount of money they > bring to the campus. > > All departments at this "public" university are being urged to create > revenue-generating programs. > > The US congress appears to be poised to slam graduate training through its > new tax policies and ditto university endowments. > > etc. > > mike > > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:14 AM, James Ma wrote: > > > Thank you Alfredo! > > James > > > > 2017?11?30? ??12:07?"Alfredo Jornet Gil" ??? > > > > Hi James, thanks for the relevant comments and for keeping the thread > > alive. Before I can add more to the topic of education itself and what > our > > role as educators and learners may be in this time of corporative > > capitalist knowledge production, I wanted to just note that threads do > not > > fade away; WE let them fade. So it is up to all (and any) of us to keep > > them awake, or to re-awake them anytime after they had seemed to have > > completely disappeared. > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on > > behalf of James Ma > > Sent: 30 November 2017 12:12 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies and > > junky degrees" > > > > This thread of emails seems to be fading away. I?ve been quietly > following > > it because the "Elitists, crybabies and junky degrees" heading catches my > > eyes and resonates within me in many ways. Here, I?d just like to say > > perhaps one thing before this thread finally disappears! > > > > > > Higher education in the UK is increasingly becoming rampant due to > widening > > participation. This has created a distinction between research-intensive > > universities (the Russell Group institutions) and teaching-intensive > > universities (the post-1992 institutions, i.e. former polytechnics or > > colleges of higher education that were given university status in 1992 or > > thereafter). It seems that, when it comes to theory, the road begins to > > fork: in one direction, theory-laden and academic; in the other, > > practice-driven and vocational, coupled with (what can be) a resistance > to > > thinking endowed with philosophy and reasoning. These two directions can > > contrast sharply, almost to the point of mutual exclusion, given their > > differing ontological and epistemological positions. > > > > > > For me, learner autonomy and the potential for transformation must be > > deemed vital to the student experience. Knowledge and scholarship is to > be > > situated at the core of teaching and learning. However, a utilitarianist > > approach to British higher education is seemingly looming up especially > in > > an environment where *how-you-are-smart* predominates > *how-smart-you-are*; > > this may have deepened an existing ontological chasm between what might > be > > termed traditional and non-traditional academic staff. Might such an > > approach create psychological conflicts within a practice-dominant > > orientation ? in particular, when the contradicting ego state struggles > to > > find a balance between the existing self and compliance with what is, > > supposedly, an academic norm? > > > > > > As far as academism is concerned, theoretical knowledge is of universally > > crucial importance, albeit variably constructed in different cultures. > > However sharply critical or critically sharp an individual mind may be > > (either in learning or in teaching), with an absence of theoretical > > engagement, the university world ? here I like to quote what Charlotte > > Bloch says in her book *Passion and Paranoia: Emotions and the Culture of > > Emotion in Academia*: ?generally associated with rationality, > > methodological principles, objectivity and logical argument? ? can > > represent a dead end. > > > > > > Last year I wrote an article for *Social Semiotics*: ?Semiotising the > > student perception of learning outcomes in British higher education? > > https://doi.org/10.1080/10350330.2016.1189234, in which I argue for > > intellectualism as central to the ethnography of university life. > > > > > > Finally, on a different note, I hope Vera is getting better soon. I still > > remember her talking with me about my PhD in 2001 during her visit to > > Bristol University and how much I benefited from her 10 lectures on > > Vygotsky. > > > > > > James > > > > > > *_____________________________________* > > > > *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa > > * > > > > > > On 27 November 2017 at 05:58, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vera, > > > > > > One of the paths of influence goes through here, the city of > Istanbul. I > > > just talked with hundreds of young people in Turkey about the > > significance > > > of supportive childhood environment in the later development of > > creativity > > > in arts and sciences. "Notebooks," are in our minds.. Thinking of you > > > and missing you, Artin > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > > College of Education M/C 147 > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > On Sun, November 26, 2017 4:43 pm, Kris Gutierrez wrote: > > > > ?We are all Vera? as they say; as your influence, Vera, continues to > > > > be profound and wide. We are all indebted to you. Thinking of you, > > > > Abrazos, Kris > > > > > > > > Kris D. Guti?rrez > > > > Carol Liu Professor > > > > Graduate School of Education > > > > Prolepsis Design Collaborative > > > > Member, National Academy of Education > > > > University of California, Berkeley > > > > 5629 Tolman Hall > > > > Berkeley, CA 94720-1670 > > > > gutierrkd@berkeley.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Nov 26, 2017, at 8:07 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> > > > >> A LOT of people are thinking of you Vera. Generations of scholars > are > > in > > > >> your debt, and > > > >> Working to continue along the paths you have us to. > > > >> > > > >> Mike > > > >> > > > >> On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 4:38 AM Peter Smagorinsky > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> I second that emotion! > > > >>> > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > >>> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 6:24 AM > > > >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' ; > > > >>> vygotsky@unm.edu > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, > crybabies > > > >>> and > > > >>> junky degrees" > > > >>> > > > >>> Best wishes for you, Vera; for many of us seeing your name in a > > message > > > >>> is > > > >>> also always a joy. > > > >>> Alfredo > > > >>> ________________________________________ > > > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > edu > > > > > > > >>> on behalf of Vera John-Steiner > > > >>> Sent: 26 November 2017 07:59 > > > >>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, > > > >>> crybabies > > > >>> and junky degrees" > > > >>> > > > >>> Annalisa, > > > >>> > > > >>> I was glad to see your name on a message. I have been doing very > > > >>> poorly, I > > > >>> am now in hospice. They are very kind. Cathrene just visited, and I > > am > > > >>> particularly tired. He has recovered well. > > > >>> > > > >>> I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. > > > >>> > > > >>> Do let me know what is new with you. > > > >>> > > > >>> Love, > > > >>> > > > >>> Vera > > > >>> > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > > > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 3:39 PM > > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] WaPo article on higher ed: "Elitists, crybabies > and > > > >>> junky degrees" > > > >>> > > > >>> Hi fellow Xmcats, > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Saw this in the Washington Post. It's not a short read. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Basically encapsulates the conservative mentality that is shaping > the > > > >>> future of US universities these days. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > > > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/ > > > >>> < > > > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > > > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > > > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > > > >>>> > > > >>> < > > > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > > > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > > > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> < > > > >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2017/11/25/ > > > elitists-crybabies-and-junky-degrees/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table- > > > main_rigged-college-131pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstor > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> What safeguards are in place to secure liberal arts education? Why > > must > > > >>> everything be centered around creating revenue? Ugh. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> There is also mention of a Pew study here: > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/ > > > 2017/07/11101505/07-10-17-Institutions-release.pdf > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> (Though I figure that you likely have already seen it from last > July, > > > >>> given how connected everyone is on this list! ?) > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> And also mentioned: > > > >>> http://news.gallup.com/poll/216278/why-republicans-down- > higher.aspx > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> If you haven't seen these, forewarned is forearmed? At least in > terms > > > >>> of > > > >>> the soundbytes, you may want to get used to hearing them so the > shock > > > >>> wears > > > >>> off and you can then get behind the mule and plow. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Just I thought I would pass this on. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Kind regards, > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Annalisa > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > "The past isn't dead, it isn't even past." > - William Faulkner >