[Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural Perpsective

[HENRY SHONERD]

David,
Be mighty careful what you say or I’ll shamelessly show how little I know about Langacker or Wundt. But I used to swim in Langacker and Wundt was my best shot at indtroducing masters of yesteryear into the comprehensives for my doctorate in Educational Linguistics, a wonderful program co-founded at the University of New Mexico by Vera John-Steiner and the socio-linguists Bernard Spolsky back in about 1980. I have gotten out my comps and dissertation and am going to re-read them as I read and think about the latest threads on the chat, starting, I guess, with “The stuff of words”. I guess I fancy myself a late-blooming philosopher. Like Andy, but with less ammo. I do best as a lurker. 
Peace on you all :)
Henry

> On May 19, 2017, at 4:39 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Martin. I'm reading Vygotsky's lecture on "Negative Phases of the
> Transitional Age", i.e. adolescence. Its' a late lecture, a little under a
> year before he died. But in it he does argue that the central neoformation
> of adolescence isn't sexuality or teenage rebellion or any of the other
> behavioural symptoms that his colleagues were focused on. He wants
> something that can generalize to every other crisis as well, and he chooses
> what he calls "schizoticism" which is probably what we would call today
> "schizotypal personality disorder", except that for him it's not a disorder
> at all, an in fact he argues that it is the children who show only feeble
> schizotic symptoms or who refuse to show them who are seriously disordered.
> And he suggests that what generalizes to every other crisis is the notion
> of a house divided against itself, what he calls "понятие о расщеплении",
> or the concept of the differentiation, the division, the split, just as you
> say.
> 
> Weirdly, I think that your stable periods don't link together so well.
> That's not just the lack of grammatical parallelism in the nomenclature
> ("infancy", "toddler[hood]", "early/middle childhood" "teenager[hood]"--I
> can see that you are trying to stay away from a nomenclature that implies
> schooling on the one hand and use common-sense folk categories on the
> other. I think it's because you are using a model of stable periods based
> on world-building rather than on language, and the worlds of "Greatwe",
> "irresistible invitations", "appearances", etc don't really seem linked the
> way that physical-biological-psychological differentiation are linked.
> 
> Your stable periods work well for your project (yes, culture, but  within
> that getting your students to rediscover both the strengths and weakness of
> Piaget). But I think they won't work so well for mine (yes, language, and
> within language and the "world-building" function of
> language, distinguishing what Halliday would call the Experiential rather
> than the Logical metafunction--the feeling/thought of what's happening
> rather than the whole question of how it all fits together.)
> 
> I didn't really mean to inflict my book chapter on poor Henry--publishers
> are now trying to get authors to shoulder almost ALL of the sales as well
> as the editing work, and one of the things they do is provide all these
> neat links that you stick in your signature when you take part in a
> discussion list; my book sales have been, like two or three copies a year,
> so I thought I'd try it. I notice that (for all that real, unfeigned
> modesty and humility), Henry knows onewhole hell of a lot more about
> Langacker on the one hand and Wundt on the other than I do (I have read
> bits of both but I don't have anything like his understanding of either).
> 
> But there really is something I really do share with Henry that I think
> explains right away how he responded to my book chapter. It's this:
> Vygotsky talks about "communication" and "generalization" (or "sharing" and
> "about that shared"); Halliday about "dialogue" and "narrative". It seems
> to me that by whatever name we give them, this linguistic woofing and
> warping are the weft that join the stable periods and the crises together.
> 
> The difference is that during stable periods, the
> communication/sharing/dialogue threads are in front and the
> generalization/about-that-shared/narrative
> threads go in back. But during the crises, the child is trying to "turn the
> tables" on the environment, so that the child is source of development and
> the environment is site. During the crisis, we see all those loose threads,
> all those knots and breaks--and yet also, there is the same pattern, albeit
> like a photographic negative--in the back of the carpet.
> -- 
> David Kellogg
> Macquarie University
> 
> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with
> Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare"
> 
> Free Chapters Downloadable at:
> 
> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-
> globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf
> 
> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations
> on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children
> 
> Free E-print Downloadable at:
> 
> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full
> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co
>> wrote:
> 
>> Diagram attached, I hope.
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 19, 2017, at 4:34 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Martin,
>>> I’m sorry, but I don’t think that diagram came through. Also I too am
>> interested in what you think of Shpet.
>>> HJenry
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 19, 2017, at 9:45 AM, Martin John Packer <
>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi David,
>>>> 
>>>> Here’s how I handled the matter of the age periods: the stages and
>> crises; tell me what you think.
>>>> 
>>>> Infancy - A Practical Understanding of the World
>>>> Infancy - Towards Biological Differentiation
>>>> Toddlerhood - A World of Irresistible Invitations
>>>> Toddlerhood - Towards Psychological Differentiation
>>>> Early Childhood  - How Things Appear, And How They Are
>>>> Early Childhood  - Towards Inner and Outer
>>>> Middle Childhood - Understanding Institutional Reality
>>>> Middle Childhood - Towards the Actual and the Possible
>>>> The Teenage Years - Adolescent, or Adult?
>>>> The Teenage Years - Towards Adulthood
>>>> 
>>>> The “Towards” in these chapter titles reflects the fact that I needed
>> to treat each stage in two chapters, and there was usually less to say
>> about each crisis than about each stage, so I couldn’t dedicate a whole
>> chapter to each crisis. Here’s how I described the notions of ‘stage’ and
>> ‘transition’:
>>>> 
>>>> "Stages are qualitatively distinct from one another, not only in the
>> form of intelligence that the child employs (as Piaget noted), but also in
>> the child’s way of being in the world. Each stage involves a specific way
>> of relating to the world and relating to self, and as a result of this a
>> new way of experiencing and understanding.
>>>> 
>>>> "Transitions are those times when new properties rapidly emerge. A
>> transition is a point of inflection, a crisis. In a transition there is a
>> dramatic change in the child’s way of being in the world, so that she
>> discovers new possibilities in that world and gains a new sense of herself:
>> of her abilities, her capacities. During the stage that follows, the child
>> progressively masters this new way of living in the world. These
>> transitions are truly changes not only in the child but in the whole
>> child-caregiver-niche system of which she is a component.”
>>>> 
>>>> And the diagram below (if it comes through) illustrates the sequence (I
>> think the third should read Appearance & Reality).
>>>> 
>>>> Martin
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> [cid:FAACC3A0-B984-4539-B8E7-05391373CD7F]
>>>> 
>>>> On May 18, 2017, at 7:27 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com
>> <mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Martin, I think if I'd written something like that I'd be pretty
>> shameless
>>>> too. (A propos--or by the bye--do you have a publisher for the Shpet
>>>> schtick you are up to...?)
>>>> 
>>>> Here's something for the revised edition. The way Vygotsky explains
>> "Great
>>>> We" in the Pedological Lectures is a little different and a lot
>> wittier. He
>>>> says it is a "Grandwe" in the sense of your Grandpa--that is, the "we"
>> was
>>>> there before you were even a gleam in your Daddy's eye. (Vygotsky likes
>> to
>>>> address the students with "You and we").
>>>> 
>>>> I have been thinking how to "popularize" the age periods without
>>>> vulgarizing them (you know, what Bruner says about being able to teach
>>>> anything to anybody in some honest way).
>>>> 
>>>> You and we (our little Grandwe) know perfectly well that Vygotsky
>> measured
>>>> that zone of proximal development in years (it's a "next" zone of
>>>> development, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about it unless:
>>>> 
>>>> a) you have the age periods and
>>>> 
>>>> b) you have some set of problems--not the Binet problems!--that will
>>>> correlate in some non-arbitrary way to the next age period.
>>>> 
>>>> That means that the "next zone of development" for Vygotsky studies is
>> not
>>>> to try to turn him into a failed Gestaltist (pace Yasnitsky and van der
>>>> Veer) but rather to try to figure out some way to get people to take the
>>>> age periods seriously no matter how busy and how impatient with
>> Vygotsky's
>>>> discursive and apparently indecisive formulations they are.
>>>> 
>>>> What do you think of this?
>>>> 
>>>> Birth--Social Situation of Development: Instinct confronted by
>>>> intersubjectivity. Central Neoformation: "Pre-we"
>>>> Infancy--SSD: Physiologically independent but biologically dependent:
>>>> CNF: "Grandwe"
>>>> One--SSD: Proto-speech confronted by proper speech. CNF: "Pre-speech"
>>>> Early Childhood--SSD: Biologically independent but interpersonally
>>>> (interactionally) dependent. CNF: "Grandspeech"
>>>> Three--SSD: Affect confronted by the 'antipode' of will.  CNF:
>> "Pre-will"
>>>> Preschool--SSD: Interpersonally independent but psychologically
>> dependent
>>>> ('reactive' learning). CNF: "Grandwill"
>>>> Seven--SSD: Inner personality confronted by outer persona. CNF: "Pre-me"
>>>> School Age: Psychologically independent but intellectually
>>>> (academically) dependent. CNF: "Grandme"
>>>> Thirteen: Original thinking confronted by imitation. CNF: "Pre-concepts"
>>>> Adolescence: Intellectually independent but socioeconomically dependent.
>>>> CNF: "Grandconcepts" (nontheoretical concepts, tinged with concrete
>>>> thinking)
>>>> Seventeen SSD: In the USSR, school leaving. CNF: "Pre-Life"
>>>> 
>>>> You could write the Crises on your palm and the Stable Periods along
>> each
>>>> finger. (Hard to read it, though....)
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>> Macquarie University
>>>> 
>>>> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
>>>> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with
>>>> Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare"
>>>> 
>>>> Free Chapters Downloadable at:
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-globe-
>> and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf
>>>> 
>>>> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some
>> Ruminations
>>>> on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children
>>>> 
>>>> Free E-print Downloadable at:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Maria Judith Sucupira Costa Lins <
>>>> mariasucupiralins@terra.com.br> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Martin
>>>> Thank you for the chapter. Maria
>>>> 
>>>> -----Mensagem original-----
>>>> De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu]
>>>> Em nome de Martin John Packer
>>>> Enviada em: quarta-feira, 17 de maio de 2017 20:05
>>>> Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural
>>>> Perpsective
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks Alfredo. It was fun to write, and it would not have been possible
>>>> except for what I have learned over the years from some very smart
>> people,
>>>> a
>>>> number of whom hang out on this very discussion group.
>>>> 
>>>> Martin
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On May 17, 2017, at 5:48 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
>>>> <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no<mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for shamelessly sharing your work, Martin. The chapter looks
>> great.
>>>> I
>>>> like the way it draws connections throughout diverse theories,
>> emphasising
>>>> common ground across dual systems theory, dynamic field theory, and
>>>> cultural
>>>> psychology.
>>>> 
>>>> Alfredo
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From:
>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> 
>>>> on
>>>> behalf of Martin John Packer
>>>> <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co<mailto:mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>>
>>>> Sent: 18 May 2017 00:10
>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l]  Child Development: Understanding a Cultural
>> Perpsective
>>>> 
>>>> A few months ago I shamelessly promoted my new textbook, Child
>> Development:
>>>> Understanding a Cultural Perspective, published by Sage at only $46 for
>> the
>>>> paperback edition, $33 or less for the various electronic editions.
>>>> 
>>>> There is now a sample chapter available online: Chapter 5, one of the
>> two
>>>> chapters on infancy:
>>>> 
>>>> <https://us.sagepub.com/en-us/nam/child-development/book2535
>> 43%20#preview>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Martin
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>