From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Jun 1 15:24:44 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:24:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no>, <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> Message-ID: <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> Please, you've got nothing to apologise about; a short answer some times says a lot. Your point that emotion manifests as an aspect of reshaping agency is, in my view, totally in line with CHAT approaches. Conflict and contradiction are indeed two important aspects and Yrjo Engestr?m talks about them explicitly and in addressing your and Ueno's paper. In particular, Engestr?m describes "Activity theory sees historically evolving contradictions as the driving force of change and development. Contradictions are manifested in everyday actions as troubles and disturbances, in discourse as dilemmas, conflicts, and double binds (Engestr?m & Sannino, 2011)" This is, I think, one way in which CHAT approaches the issue: historically evolving contradictions that exist at the societal level manifest in contradictions at the personal level, and development in the sense of changing into new forms of organisation (societal, personal). Similar approaches can be found in Roth too; I'll be asking both authors permission to share their work here. I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM do with questions of change. Your article documents change; and it does so while showing that change is both systemic and involves emotion. Really fascinating questions, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of ???? Sent: 31 May 2017 13:36 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Hans Christian Arnseth Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Alfredo, I apologize that I only give you a simple answer as before. I see the discontent (emotion) expressed by some Yuzuru members in the context of their reshaping agency. Their reshaping agency grows out of the transformation of the socio-technical arrangement surrounding Yuzuru members. In CHAT, do they see the discontent as the emergence of conflict between members? Yasuko Kawatoko > 2017/05/30 ??3:44?Alfredo Jornet Gil ????? > > Yes, as Andy suggests, in CHAT, talking about affect does not imply a dichotomy. In fact, just before his premature death, Vygotsky had taken on the task to develop a theory of emotions that was to be based precisely on a firm commitment to overcome cartesian dualism. > > I think that no summary will do justice to all there is to say about CHAT and the study of emotions. But if I had to make it short, I would say that Vygotsky was striving towards a materialist account of emotions in particular, and of the psyche more generally, that would not take the form of a 'mechanistic' explanation. He hoped to explain the psyche as a material phenomenon without giving up the concept of psyche, or mind, as the proper subject. He aimed to achieve this by postulating and investigating a genetic relation between emotions as they emerge historically as social wholes (that is, as much more than emotions: as a dinner, a farewell party, a romantic rupture...), and the way they manifest as individual feelings. This may be akin to studying the socio-technical arrangements of emotions, to put it in terms closer to your text. > > Although Vygotsky's was a project for psychology, which is not ANT's interest, I asked you about emotions because I felt that the empirical case that you describe in your article brings to relieve a story of transforming affects as these belong to a history of socio-historical development or, as you describe it, of a reconfiguration of a socio-technical arrangement. I am referring to the fragments in which, as you describe in your text, > > "There was tension in the meeting because the person from the MCPA expressed dissatisfaction with the quality of the textiles that the members had woven." (p. 138). > > You also point out "The discontent felt by some Yuzuru members in terms of the direction of the Party?s activities was expressed in discussions." (p. 139). Yet, you warn readers: "Caution must be exercised in interpreting this, as discontent that was felt by Yuzuru members." I was thinking that this note of caution might be a fruitful arena for discussing at the interface of CHAT and ANT. I did empathise with Yuzuru Party members' feelings as I was reading the narrative and excerpts. Thanks for that! > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden > Sent: 29 May 2017 15:27 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Yasuko, affect/cognition is an analytical distinction but it > does not form a dichotomy, as you say. At the level of > activity this distinction is not present, likewise in the > case of agency, personality, experience, etc. To make an > analytical distinction is not necessarily to posit a dichotomy. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 29/05/2017 11:20 PM, ???? wrote: >> To tell you the truth, I am not much familiar with CHAT and Vygotskian legacy. >> >> I appreciate it if you could explain what has been discussed about ?the issue of emotions and affects and their development as part of social activities or practices? in CHAT circles and Vygotskian legacy. >> >> As for ANT, the idea that attracts me the most is its disposal of dichotomy. For example, you said, ?In which way does this framework help you characterize this affective dimension?? The word ?affective? is bothering me because I feel some sign of dichotomy such as affective/cognitive, emotional/reasonable and so on. The concept of ?agency? in ANT connotes all human volitional actions including learning, feeling, conceiving, gazing, etc. >> >> Thanks for discussion, >> >> Yasuko Kawatoko >> >> >>> 2017/05/29 ??3:53?Alfredo Jornet Gil ????? >>> >>> I am glad to see you find common ground, although I would say that Yasuko's article is very different: while Wylie's analysis seems to be concerned with a seeing of a landscape, and seems to operate from within that seeing or gaze, Yasuko's framework and analyses seem to promise something else: to talk about the possibility of that seeing in concrete terms. So I see Wylie's paper as addressing something like this: what is a possible seeing of this landscape from where I stand (e.g., as a reader of Derrida)? Whereas I hear Yasuko's article as being more about the historical and material premises that position Wylie as that particular looker who sees a landscape in that way, an account that then would have to include the reading and citing of Derrida not as something given or somehow 'natural', but as yet another aspect of a multitude of aspects forming the arrangement that supports that particular seeing. The two approaches seem very different to me, among other things, because the latter can explain the possibility of the former but not the other way around. Not that you cannot learn from both, of course, which you can! >>> >>> An aspect that is sharply distinctive in Y. Kawatoko's article, at least with regard to the one that Larry has shared, is a concern on *development*, on growth and change, rather than on self and experience. Kawatoko's article describes a trajectory involving an intertwining between enhanced awareness and re-configured contexts or 'arrangements'. In this regard, Kawatoko's article seems to be much closer to the CHAT tradition that characterises much of the MCA readership. >>> >>> In fact, Kawatoko's article, which analyses a history of weaving, also seems to describe a weaving within the weaving: the one that tangles together history and weaving hands. As socio-historical arrangements develop, so too develop the weaving skills, which is to the cloth what the gaze is to the landscape in Wylie's paper. In this regard, the paper seems to touch upon, though not thematise, the issue of emotions and affects and their development as part of social activities or practices. In CHAT circles, this issue is very much discussed and the Vygotskian legacy seems to offer possible venues for further inquiry. But I am curious about the possibilities that stem from ANT (or the version your article draws from). In which way does this framework help you characterise this affective dimension (Yasuko and anyone else), and how does it address the issue of growth, of development? >>> >>> Thanks for engagement, >>> Alfredo >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of ???? >>> Sent: 28 May 2017 09:57 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >>> Dear Larry Purss, >>> >>> Thank you very much for John Wylie?s article, ?Landscape, absence and the geographies of love.? It beautifully describes what we experience in our mind when we face and view (magnificent) landscape. I like the following phrase: Our ?stories of life and love weave together landscape and memory.? In this sense, absence and presence are mutually constituted. >>> >>> >>> In the same way, past and present, participation and non-participation, culture and sub-culture, everything is mutually constituted in a series of context of interactions among human, non-human, and machinery, in other words, under the sociotechnical and historical arrangements. >>> >>> I am for the author?s way of exploring things; that is, ?bringing to light things previously hidden or lost, unearthing memory, making the invisible visible.? In my cases, ?talking? is important to make invisible visible. Talking is part of practice. What and how individuals talk about artifacts they use, fellow members working together, personal and public stories regarding the place become important resources to make the invisible visible for the researcher, while simultaneously the individuals? talks give the individuals opportunities to make their own practice visible and to constitute their own participation in the (work) place. >>> >>> >>> Larry, yes, I am applying this approach to the subject of the Yuzuru Party. >>> >>> >>> >>>> 2017/05/28 ??0:22?Larry Purss ????? >>>> >>>> Yasuko, >>>> Thank you for your personal narrative, introducing your ways of walking through *tactile* places. >>>> >>>> I will open my response through revivifying Ueno?s sense of spirit in our walking alongside Ueno and listening: >>>> >>>> >>>> ?Participation in a community is realized through the process of making the community *visible* to the participants.? >>>> >>>> Participants create *boundaries* between communities and make them *visible* each time they discuss codes or categories, and in doing so, they are able to constitute their own participation in the community. >>>> >>>> Yasuko, you are applying this approach (way of tactile walking) in your approach to the *subject of* (not object of) >>>> The Yuzuru Party. (distributing agency) >>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>> >>>> From: ???? >>>> Sent: May 27, 2017 12:31 AM >>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] xmca new discussion started >>>> >>>> Dear xmca members, >>>> >>>> Thank you very much for putting my article under discussion at xmca. >>>> >>>> Let me introduce my research career briefly. >>>> >>>> Until the 2000s, I had done some research in company?s workplaces or institutionalized systems where some ?strategy? called by Michel de Certeau (1984) could work, and investigated the ways of relations among individuals, artifacts and machineries in those spaces: the practice of repair technicians in a copy machine company, the practice of operators under the introduction of new production system (Toyota Production System) in the US manufacturing company, and the technology of a care needs assessment under the nursing-care insurance system in Japan. >>>> >>>> After that, I have been interested in everyday practices by ordinary people, especially women and old people who live in farm villages or small towns in Japan. In everyday practices that are ?tactical in character?, people ?make (bricolent) innumerable and infinitesimal transformations of and within the dominant cultural economy in order to adapt it to their own interests and their own rules?, referring to Michel de Certeau (1984). I have tried to explore, and described vividly ordinary people?s tactics, more specifically, the procedures, bases, effects, and possibilities of those collective activities. For example, the practice of old women who were engaged in a ?happa (leaf) business? in a mountain village, and the practice of women weavers group with the objective of developing traditional hand-weaving skills and sharing Matsusaka cotton with the next generation (current issue). >>>> >>>> I think I am a type of researcher who takes pleasure in walking around here and there in search of interesting humans collective activities. The important thing for me is how vividly I can describe interactions among people, artifacts, and machinery that I find interesting in the places. For the sake of cultivating more fruitful viewpoints in the field, I might need some more theoretical bases that I lack unfortunately. >>>> >>>> I hope I have your many productive suggestions to our works. >>>> >>>> Yasuko Kawatoko >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Jun 1 15:40:29 2017 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:40:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Hi Alfredo, I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. Creating and sustaining order always requires change. Martin On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM do with questions of change. From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Jun 1 16:16:08 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 23:16:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no>, Message-ID: <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I meant development. So I am going to change my question: What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, personal) with EM. You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. How does EM feature in it? Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin John Packer Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Hi Alfredo, I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. Creating and sustaining order always requires change. Martin On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM do with questions of change. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 16:44:23 2017 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 16:44:23 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no>, <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> Martin, This sentence, ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? And therefore makes visible change as the norm Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I meant development. So I am going to change my question: What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, personal) with EM. You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. How does EM feature in it? Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin John Packer Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Hi Alfredo, I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. Creating and sustaining order always requires change. Martin On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM do with questions of change. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Jun 1 16:45:21 2017 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 23:45:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Hi Alfredo, In general I would respond that EM is the study of people acting and interacting, and to the extent to which development, of the various kinds that you name, is brought about in practice ? which is entirely! ? EM will offer a way to describe it and explain it. Indeed, one of the classics of EM deals precisely with personal development: becoming a skilled jazz pianist: Sudnow, D. (1974). Ways of the hand: The organization of improvised conduct. Harvard University Press. I?ve published a couple of things where I?ve used Conversation Analysis, closely related to EM, to explore development. The first is a study of a consultation in which a Babalow seeks to guide the personal development of his client: Packer, M. J., & Tibaduiza Sierra, S. (2012). A concrete psychological investigation of if? divination. Revista Colombiana de Psicolog?a, 21(2), 353-369. The other is a study of classroom interaction, in which one can clearly see microgenesis: Packer, M. J. (2011). Schooling: Domestication or ontological construction? In T. Koschmann (Ed.), Theories of learning and studies of instructional practice (pp. 167-188). New York: Springer. > On Jun 1, 2017, at 6:16 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I meant development. So I am going to change my question: > > What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, personal) with EM. > > You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. How does EM feature in it? > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin John Packer > Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Hi Alfredo, > > I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > > Martin > > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM do with questions of change. > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Jun 1 16:55:25 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 23:55:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no>, Message-ID: <1496361323972.59973@iped.uio.no> Thanks so much Martin! ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin John Packer Sent: 02 June 2017 01:45 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Hi Alfredo, In general I would respond that EM is the study of people acting and interacting, and to the extent to which development, of the various kinds that you name, is brought about in practice ? which is entirely! ? EM will offer a way to describe it and explain it. Indeed, one of the classics of EM deals precisely with personal development: becoming a skilled jazz pianist: Sudnow, D. (1974). Ways of the hand: The organization of improvised conduct. Harvard University Press. I?ve published a couple of things where I?ve used Conversation Analysis, closely related to EM, to explore development. The first is a study of a consultation in which a Babalow seeks to guide the personal development of his client: Packer, M. J., & Tibaduiza Sierra, S. (2012). A concrete psychological investigation of if? divination. Revista Colombiana de Psicolog?a, 21(2), 353-369. The other is a study of classroom interaction, in which one can clearly see microgenesis: Packer, M. J. (2011). Schooling: Domestication or ontological construction? In T. Koschmann (Ed.), Theories of learning and studies of instructional practice (pp. 167-188). New York: Springer. > On Jun 1, 2017, at 6:16 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I meant development. So I am going to change my question: > > What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, personal) with EM. > > You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. How does EM feature in it? > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin John Packer > Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Hi Alfredo, > > I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > > Martin > > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM do with questions of change. > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Jun 1 17:12:17 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 00:12:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no>, <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no>, <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also as instructability, speaks to change. A ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Martin, This sentence, ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? And therefore makes visible change as the norm Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I meant development. So I am going to change my question: What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, personal) with EM. You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. How does EM feature in it? Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin John Packer Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Hi Alfredo, I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. Creating and sustaining order always requires change. Martin On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM do with questions of change. From wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:27:38 2017 From: wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com (Wolff-Michael Roth) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 17:27:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Martin, I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the methods, the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. Garfinkel describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM does not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely elsewhere. Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is not interested in the change but how people do make change and the required work visible to each other. Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also as > instructability, speaks to change. A > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Larry Purss > Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Martin, > This sentence, > ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? > And therefore makes visible change as the norm > Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel > kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I > meant development. So I am going to change my question: > > What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, > personal) with EM. > > You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. > How does EM feature in it? > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Martin John Packer > Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Hi Alfredo, > > I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does > not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people > (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. > Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > > Martin > > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach > to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM > do with questions of change. > > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Jun 1 17:39:10 2017 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 00:39:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> Hi Wolff-Michael, I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the suggestion that EM starts from the assumption that people (simply) make visible order that has its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an encyclopedia article by Doug Maynard and Teddy Kardash: Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in the work of Harold Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods in and through which members concertedly produce and assemble the features of everyday life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or theoretically depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this intelligible organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, procedural behaviors or methods and practices. Martin On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth > wrote: Martin, I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the methods, the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. Garfinkel describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM does not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely elsewhere. Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is not interested in the change but how people do make change and the required work visible to each other. Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also as instructability, speaks to change. A ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Larry Purss > Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Martin, This sentence, ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? And therefore makes visible change as the norm Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I meant development. So I am going to change my question: What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, personal) with EM. You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. How does EM feature in it? Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Martin John Packer > Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Hi Alfredo, I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. Creating and sustaining order always requires change. Martin On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM do with questions of change. From wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:45:40 2017 From: wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com (Wolff-Michael Roth) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 17:45:40 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Thanks Martin, I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently said---from what you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these include making the very production and assembly available to each other. In all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel wrote considerably on the invisible background assumption . . . Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi Wolff-Michael, > > I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the suggestion that EM > starts from the assumption that people (simply) make visible order that has > its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an encyclopedia article by Doug > Maynard and Teddy Kardash: > > > Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in the work of Harold > Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods in and through > which members concertedly produce and assemble the features of everyday > life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or theoretically > depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this intelligible > organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, procedural behaviors > or methods and practices. > > Martin > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > > Martin, > I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the methods, > the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very > different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. Garfinkel > describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, > interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal > analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these > methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM does > not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely > elsewhere. > Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is not > interested in the change but how people do make change and the required > work visible to each other. > Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also as > instructability, speaks to change. A > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > on behalf of Larry Purss >> > Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Martin, > This sentence, > ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? > And therefore makes visible change as the norm > Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel > kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I > meant development. So I am going to change my question: > > What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, > personal) with EM. > > You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. > How does EM feature in it? > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > on behalf of Martin John Packer mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> > Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Hi Alfredo, > > I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does > not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people > (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. > Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > > Martin > > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach > to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM > do with questions of change. > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jun 1 17:49:13 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 17:49:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: It is a treat to drop in on this conversation. At a dissertation the other day I learned that Garfinkel had referred to the "awesome indexicality" of everyday life. Seems like a ripe set of circumstances for conflict and emotion to be visible, as they are in Yasuko's case study. The qu0te from Engestrom & Saninon works well for me. " Contradictions are manifested in everyday actions as troubles and disturbances" mike PS- my oh my! both martin and michael have comment in the time it took me to type this brief note! time to retire. :-) On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi Wolff-Michael, > > I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the suggestion that EM > starts from the assumption that people (simply) make visible order that has > its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an encyclopedia article by Doug > Maynard and Teddy Kardash: > > > Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in the work of Harold > Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods in and through > which members concertedly produce and assemble the features of everyday > life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or theoretically > depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this intelligible > organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, procedural behaviors > or methods and practices. > > Martin > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > > Martin, > I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the methods, > the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very > different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. Garfinkel > describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, > interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal > analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these > methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM does > not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely > elsewhere. > Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is not > interested in the change but how people do make change and the required > work visible to each other. > Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also as > instructability, speaks to change. A > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > on behalf of Larry Purss >> > Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Martin, > This sentence, > ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? > And therefore makes visible change as the norm > Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel > kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I > meant development. So I am going to change my question: > > What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, > personal) with EM. > > You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. > How does EM feature in it? > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > on behalf of Martin John Packer mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> > Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Hi Alfredo, > > I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does > not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people > (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. > Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > > Martin > > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach > to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM > do with questions of change. > > > > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Jun 1 17:55:59 2017 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 00:55:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <5E852A69-6E17-48C7-A089-C1FC7CD1A9C0@uniandes.edu.co> Yes, absolutely. Part of the work of creating order will be making aspects of that order visible? Martin On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:45 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth > wrote: Thanks Martin, I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently said---from what you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these include making the very production and assembly available to each other. In all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel wrote considerably on the invisible background assumption . . . Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: Hi Wolff-Michael, I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the suggestion that EM starts from the assumption that people (simply) make visible order that has its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an encyclopedia article by Doug Maynard and Teddy Kardash: Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in the work of Harold Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods in and through which members concertedly produce and assemble the features of everyday life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or theoretically depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this intelligible organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, procedural behaviors or methods and practices. Martin On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: Martin, I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the methods, the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. Garfinkel describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM does not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely elsewhere. Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is not interested in the change but how people do make change and the required work visible to each other. Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also as instructability, speaks to change. A ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >> on behalf of Larry Purss > >> on behalf of Martin John Packer >> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Hi Alfredo, I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. Creating and sustaining order always requires change. Martin On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM do with questions of change. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Jun 1 18:16:38 2017 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 01:16:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Mike, properly done, retiring takes just as much work as working did! :) Martin > On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > It is a treat to drop in on this conversation. At a dissertation the other > day I learned that Garfinkel had referred to the "awesome > indexicality" of everyday life. Seems like a ripe set of circumstances for > conflict and emotion to be visible, as they are in Yasuko's case study. The > qu0te from Engestrom & Saninon works well for me. " Contradictions are > manifested in everyday actions as troubles and disturbances" > mike > > PS- my oh my! both martin and michael have comment in the time it took me > to type this brief note! time to retire. :-) > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Hi Wolff-Michael, >> >> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the suggestion that EM >> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make visible order that has >> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an encyclopedia article by Doug >> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: >> >> >> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in the work of Harold >> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods in and through >> which members concertedly produce and assemble the features of everyday >> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or theoretically >> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this intelligible >> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, procedural behaviors >> or methods and practices. >> >> Martin >> >> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < >> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Martin, >> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the methods, >> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very >> different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. Garfinkel >> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, >> interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal >> analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these >> methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM does >> not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely >> elsewhere. >> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is not >> interested in the change but how people do make change and the required >> work visible to each other. >> Michael >> >> >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> -------------------- >> Applied Cognitive Science >> MacLaurin Building A567 >> University of Victoria >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >> >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >> > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >> >> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >> wrote: >> >> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also as >> instructability, speaks to change. A >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu> > mailman.ucsd.edu>> >> on behalf of Larry Purss >>> >> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> Martin, >> This sentence, >> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? >> And therefore makes visible change as the norm >> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel >> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I >> meant development. So I am going to change my question: >> >> What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, >> personal) with EM. >> >> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. >> How does EM feature in it? >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu> > mailman.ucsd.edu>> >> on behalf of Martin John Packer > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> >> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> Hi Alfredo, >> >> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does >> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people >> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. >> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> > wrote: >> >> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach >> to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM >> do with questions of change. >> >> >> >> >> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jun 1 19:20:10 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 19:20:10 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: piece o cake m On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Mike, properly done, retiring takes just as much work as working did! :) > > Martin > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:49 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > It is a treat to drop in on this conversation. At a dissertation the > other > > day I learned that Garfinkel had referred to the "awesome > > indexicality" of everyday life. Seems like a ripe set of circumstances > for > > conflict and emotion to be visible, as they are in Yasuko's case study. > The > > qu0te from Engestrom & Saninon works well for me. " Contradictions are > > manifested in everyday actions as troubles and disturbances" > > mike > > > > PS- my oh my! both martin and michael have comment in the time it took me > > to type this brief note! time to retire. :-) > > > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > > wrote: > > > >> Hi Wolff-Michael, > >> > >> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the suggestion that EM > >> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make visible order that > has > >> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an encyclopedia article by > Doug > >> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: > >> > >> > >> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in the work of > Harold > >> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods in and through > >> which members concertedly produce and assemble the features of everyday > >> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or theoretically > >> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this intelligible > >> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, procedural > behaviors > >> or methods and practices. > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > >> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Martin, > >> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the > methods, > >> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very > >> different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. > Garfinkel > >> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, > >> interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal > >> analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these > >> methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM > does > >> not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely > >> elsewhere. > >> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is > not > >> interested in the change but how people do make change and the required > >> work visible to each other. > >> Michael > >> > >> > >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> -------------------- > >> Applied Cognitive Science > >> MacLaurin Building A567 > >> University of Victoria > >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > >> > >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > >> >> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > >> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > >> > >> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also > as > >> instructability, speaks to change. A > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> mailman.ucsd.edu> xmca-l-bounces@ > >> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > >> on behalf of Larry Purss pscholar2@gmail.com > >>>> > >> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >> > >> Martin, > >> This sentence, > >> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? > >> And therefore makes visible change as the norm > >> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel > >> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] > >> > >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >> > >> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >> > >> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I > >> meant development. So I am going to change my question: > >> > >> What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, > >> personal) with EM. > >> > >> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of > development. > >> How does EM feature in it? > >> Alfredo > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> mailman.ucsd.edu> xmca-l-bounces@ > >> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > >> on behalf of Martin John Packer >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> > >> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >> > >> Hi Alfredo, > >> > >> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does > >> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people > >> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. > >> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> > >> > >> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> > >> > wrote: > >> > >> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful > approach > >> to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does > EM > >> do with questions of change. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 22:05:48 2017 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:05:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> Michael, to pick up this thread: ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these include making the very production and assembly available to each other. In particular the phrase: ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar observation within a note # 1 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the actual state of affairs of a social practice. Instead of conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, the activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to retain the important insight, which is consistent with Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a science does not merely exist in its practices, it exists as its practices. The perspective is vital to an anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, 1992, p. 175). So the two phrases ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a way of making visible a work or a method or a discipline AS practices. For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. ? While Husserl provided the direction for our ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by case for the particular sciences??are obscured by Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and as a certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. That is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual work-sites of any science. And there they also lose the instructed actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual world-generating collaborations. They lose the phenomenon by losing just-how their instructed actions are administered to reveal for the scientists their work, as well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any lebenswelt practices. They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived work of sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their promise was neither noticed nor recognized by bench practitioners of any science. The program of The Crisis was never taken up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 of an actual science. It has only been used to illustrate cases for epistemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in any and every particular science. These absent details can involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the local endogenous practices of social order production and accountability, and their coherent substantive material, which might include board notes, personal notebooks, diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? The theme here is the shift from a theory being ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to become a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno practices]. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Wolff-Michael Roth Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Thanks Martin, I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently said---from what you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these include making the very production and assembly available to each other. In all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel wrote considerably on the invisible background assumption . . . Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi Wolff-Michael, > > I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the suggestion that EM > starts from the assumption that people (simply) make visible order that has > its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an encyclopedia article by Doug > Maynard and Teddy Kardash: > > > Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in the work of Harold > Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods in and through > which members concertedly produce and assemble the features of everyday > life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or theoretically > depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this intelligible > organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, procedural behaviors > or methods and practices. > > Martin > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > > Martin, > I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the methods, > the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very > different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. Garfinkel > describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, > interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal > analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these > methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM does > not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely > elsewhere. > Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is not > interested in the change but how people do make change and the required > work visible to each other. > Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also as > instructability, speaks to change. A > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > on behalf of Larry Purss >> > Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Martin, > This sentence, > ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? > And therefore makes visible change as the norm > Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel > kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I > meant development. So I am going to change my question: > > What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, > personal) with EM. > > You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. > How does EM feature in it? > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > on behalf of Martin John Packer mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> > Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Hi Alfredo, > > I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does > not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people > (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. > Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > > Martin > > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach > to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM > do with questions of change. > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 10:48:15 2017 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 10:48:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Technology that modulates indicative participation Message-ID: <5931a4e1.87cf620a.7fe4b.337c@mx.google.com> https://www.cnet.com/videos/this-chess-robot-will-destroy-you-itra-taiwan-computex/ Thought this technology that translates sign language to written text messages has something to say about ...? Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jun 6 08:36:53 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 08:36:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Reaping what you sew Message-ID: XMCA-o-philes- Below is a story about the infusion of high technology pedagogical regimes into American schools. What struck me was both the extent to which the underlying pedagogy in some of these effort (rhetoric about student-driven educational regimes) and the technological structure (individualization through use of learning algorithms) resonate with views one might find on xmca and/or are derived from research on the use of learning theory ideas that can be traced by the mathematical learning theory ideas popular when i was a graduate student. Anyway, a sign of the times. For your amusement if you are so inclined. mike PS- Putting this url in my browser worked for me but its pretty long. Good luck. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/technology/tech-billionaires-education-zuckerberg-facebook-hastings.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 08:55:29 2017 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 08:55:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reaping what you sew In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5936d09c.c59d630a.35225.2aaa@mx.google.com> Mike how do we hold on to this perspective in order to create (a) movement?? I was reflecting on the recent response to Trump exiting the climate accord. The women's march the day after Trump elected. Is this a movement with (legs)? Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: mike cole Sent: June 6, 2017 8:40 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Reaping what you sew XMCA-o-philes- Below is a story about the infusion of high technology pedagogical regimes into American schools. What struck me was both the extent to which the underlying pedagogy in some of these effort (rhetoric about student-driven educational regimes) and the technological structure (individualization through use of learning algorithms) resonate with views one might find on xmca and/or are derived from research on the use of learning theory ideas that can be traced by the mathematical learning theory ideas popular when i was a graduate student. Anyway, a sign of the times. For your amusement if you are so inclined. mike PS- Putting this url in my browser worked for me but its pretty long. Good luck. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/technology/tech-billionaires-education-zuckerberg-facebook-hastings.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Jun 6 09:16:08 2017 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:16:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reaping what you sew In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F920576440@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Mike and interested others, What is interesting is that the idea of using algorithms and gamification processes to learn is hitting some really big and hard walls. It will be interesting to see if the Silicon Valley types respond to them or if their approach is mostly just thoughtless, ideological belief in the virtues of a certain and limited perspective on technologies and their applications in education (which of course also includes a little bit for the business models of the progenitors). A lot of this is coming from machine learning, where computer scientists are finding out that learning is - you know - really complex. For instance the two most powerful machine learning experiments Alphago and Libratus to not just rely and search and retrieve methods (which have dominated so much of cognitive science) but realize they have to use positive reinforcement incorporated into their rule systems (is it okay if I don't use the word algorithms?). It is basic operant learning taken from your favorite tattered copy of Walden Two. It is the only way to really move forward. My guess is that soon they are going to find that learning is more complicated than that. I was really amused by the story of the mother using Mathbox because her son was doing the math exercises to improve his avatar and not to actually learn math. There are also the deep flaws in the basic associationist learning methods used in the big data models, related to the ones discussed in the article about figuring out and responding what students need at the moment. One of the things people (hopefully) are finding out is that when you have big data that includes all the flaws and biases that exist in that data. You might be able to code your way out of this but the coders would have to know a hell of a lot about socio-cultural theories. It will be interesting to see if anybody owns up to, let alone addresses these limitations. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 11:37 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Reaping what you sew XMCA-o-philes- Below is a story about the infusion of high technology pedagogical regimes into American schools. What struck me was both the extent to which the underlying pedagogy in some of these effort (rhetoric about student-driven educational regimes) and the technological structure (individualization through use of learning algorithms) resonate with views one might find on xmca and/or are derived from research on the use of learning theory ideas that can be traced by the mathematical learning theory ideas popular when i was a graduate student. Anyway, a sign of the times. For your amusement if you are so inclined. mike PS- Putting this url in my browser worked for me but its pretty long. Good luck. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/technology/tech-billionaires-education-zuckerberg-facebook-hastings.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jun 6 09:40:33 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 02:40:33 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reaping what you sew In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F920576440@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F920576440@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <90995e6f-855c-db20-8107-469bd9d125b0@mira.net> Isn't it the case that what these tech billionaires offer to governments and education bureaucrats is the prospect of taking the teachers out of education, which is the Holy Grail of education administration? The other side of which is that sociocultural theories of learning are weapons to save teachers' jobs. Never mind actually emancipate students! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 7/06/2017 2:16 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Mike and interested others, > > What is interesting is that the idea of using algorithms and gamification processes to learn is hitting some really big and hard walls. It will be interesting to see if the Silicon Valley types respond to them or if their approach is mostly just thoughtless, ideological belief in the virtues of a certain and limited perspective on technologies and their applications in education (which of course also includes a little bit for the business models of the progenitors). A lot of this is coming from machine learning, where computer scientists are finding out that learning is - you know - really complex. For instance the two most powerful machine learning experiments Alphago and Libratus to not just rely and search and retrieve methods (which have dominated so much of cognitive science) but realize they have to use positive reinforcement incorporated into their rule systems (is it okay if I don't use the word algorithms?). It is basic operant learning taken from your favorite t > attered copy of Walden Two. It is the only way to really move forward. My guess is that soon they are going to find that learning is more complicated than that. I was really amused by the story of the mother using Mathbox because her son was doing the math exercises to improve his avatar and not to actually learn math. > > There are also the deep flaws in the basic associationist learning methods used in the big data models, related to the ones discussed in the article about figuring out and responding what students need at the moment. One of the things people (hopefully) are finding out is that when you have big data that includes all the flaws and biases that exist in that data. You might be able to code your way out of this but the coders would have to know a hell of a lot about socio-cultural theories. > > It will be interesting to see if anybody owns up to, let alone addresses these limitations. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 11:37 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Reaping what you sew > > XMCA-o-philes- > > Below is a story about the infusion of high technology pedagogical regimes into American schools. What struck me was both the extent to which the underlying pedagogy in some of these effort (rhetoric about student-driven educational > regimes) and the technological structure (individualization through use of learning algorithms) resonate with views one might find on xmca and/or are derived from research on the use of learning theory ideas that can be traced by the mathematical learning theory ideas popular when i was a graduate student. > > Anyway, a sign of the times. For your amusement if you are so inclined. > > mike > > PS- Putting this url in my browser worked for me but its pretty long. Good luck. > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/technology/tech-billionaires-education-zuckerberg-facebook-hastings.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news > > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Jun 6 10:14:24 2017 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:14:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reaping what you sew In-Reply-To: <90995e6f-855c-db20-8107-469bd9d125b0@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F920576440@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <90995e6f-855c-db20-8107-469bd9d125b0@mira.net> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F920576476@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Andy, I doubt the tech billionaires care one way or the other about teachers. It is more based on the belief that they can create a designed systems for education where if you follow it, it will work to the benefit of all within it. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 12:41 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reaping what you sew Isn't it the case that what these tech billionaires offer to governments and education bureaucrats is the prospect of taking the teachers out of education, which is the Holy Grail of education administration? The other side of which is that sociocultural theories of learning are weapons to save teachers' jobs. Never mind actually emancipate students! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 7/06/2017 2:16 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Mike and interested others, > > What is interesting is that the idea of using algorithms and gamification processes to learn is hitting some really big and hard walls. It will be interesting to see if the Silicon Valley types respond to them or if their approach is mostly just thoughtless, ideological belief in the virtues of a certain and limited perspective on technologies and their applications in education (which of course also includes a little bit for the business models of the progenitors). A lot of this is coming from machine learning, where computer scientists are finding out that learning is - you know - really complex. For instance the two most powerful machine learning experiments Alphago and Libratus to not just rely and search and retrieve methods (which have dominated so much of cognitive science) but realize they have to use positive reinforcement incorporated into their rule systems (is it okay if I don't use the word algorithms?). It is basic operant learning taken from your favorite t > attered copy of Walden Two. It is the only way to really move forward. My guess is that soon they are going to find that learning is more complicated than that. I was really amused by the story of the mother using Mathbox because her son was doing the math exercises to improve his avatar and not to actually learn math. > > There are also the deep flaws in the basic associationist learning methods used in the big data models, related to the ones discussed in the article about figuring out and responding what students need at the moment. One of the things people (hopefully) are finding out is that when you have big data that includes all the flaws and biases that exist in that data. You might be able to code your way out of this but the coders would have to know a hell of a lot about socio-cultural theories. > > It will be interesting to see if anybody owns up to, let alone addresses these limitations. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 11:37 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Reaping what you sew > > XMCA-o-philes- > > Below is a story about the infusion of high technology pedagogical regimes into American schools. What struck me was both the extent to which the underlying pedagogy in some of these effort (rhetoric about student-driven educational > regimes) and the technological structure (individualization through use of learning algorithms) resonate with views one might find on xmca and/or are derived from research on the use of learning theory ideas that can be traced by the mathematical learning theory ideas popular when i was a graduate student. > > Anyway, a sign of the times. For your amusement if you are so inclined. > > mike > > PS- Putting this url in my browser worked for me but its pretty long. Good luck. > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/technology/tech-billionaires-education-zuckerberg-facebook-hastings.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news > > > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Tue Jun 6 10:29:00 2017 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 13:29:00 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reaping what you sew In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F920576476@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F920576440@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <90995e6f-855c-db20-8107-469bd9d125b0@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F920576476@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Yes Mike and Andy, I continually remind my undergrad education majors to analyze and critique policies, programs, media, etc. by simply saying "follow the money". Robert L. On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Andy, > > I doubt the tech billionaires care one way or the other about teachers. > It is more based on the belief that they can create a designed systems for > education where if you follow it, it will work to the benefit of all within > it. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 12:41 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reaping what you sew > > Isn't it the case that what these tech billionaires offer to governments > and education bureaucrats is the prospect of taking the teachers out of > education, which is the Holy Grail of education administration? The other > side of which is that sociocultural theories of learning are weapons to > save teachers' jobs. Never mind actually emancipate students! > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 7/06/2017 2:16 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > Mike and interested others, > > > > What is interesting is that the idea of using algorithms and > gamification processes to learn is hitting some really big and hard walls. > It will be interesting to see if the Silicon Valley types respond to them > or if their approach is mostly just thoughtless, ideological belief in the > virtues of a certain and limited perspective on technologies and their > applications in education (which of course also includes a little bit for > the business models of the progenitors). A lot of this is coming from > machine learning, where computer scientists are finding out that learning > is - you know - really complex. For instance the two most powerful machine > learning experiments Alphago and Libratus to not just rely and search and > retrieve methods (which have dominated so much of cognitive science) but > realize they have to use positive reinforcement incorporated into their > rule systems (is it okay if I don't use the word algorithms?). It is basic > operant learning taken from your favorite t > > attered copy of Walden Two. It is the only way to really move > forward. My guess is that soon they are going to find that learning is > more complicated than that. I was really amused by the story of the mother > using Mathbox because her son was doing the math exercises to improve his > avatar and not to actually learn math. > > > > There are also the deep flaws in the basic associationist learning > methods used in the big data models, related to the ones discussed in the > article about figuring out and responding what students need at the > moment. One of the things people (hopefully) are finding out is that when > you have big data that includes all the flaws and biases that exist in that > data. You might be able to code your way out of this but the coders would > have to know a hell of a lot about socio-cultural theories. > > > > It will be interesting to see if anybody owns up to, let alone addresses > these limitations. > > > > Michael > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 11:37 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Reaping what you sew > > > > XMCA-o-philes- > > > > Below is a story about the infusion of high technology pedagogical > regimes into American schools. What struck me was both the extent to which > the underlying pedagogy in some of these effort (rhetoric about > student-driven educational > > regimes) and the technological structure (individualization through use > of learning algorithms) resonate with views one might find on xmca and/or > are derived from research on the use of learning theory ideas that can be > traced by the mathematical learning theory ideas popular when i was a > graduate student. > > > > Anyway, a sign of the times. For your amusement if you are so inclined. > > > > mike > > > > PS- Putting this url in my browser worked for me but its pretty long. > Good luck. > > > > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/technology/tech- > billionaires-education-zuckerberg-facebook-hastings. > html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story- > heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news > > > > > > > > > -- Robert Lake Ed.D. Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Amazon Author Page: https://www.amazon.com/Robert-Lake/e/B00E6BTUDM/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1 Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Fri Jun 9 11:54:36 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 18:54:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Technology that modulates indicative participation In-Reply-To: <5931a4e1.87cf620a.7fe4b.337c@mx.google.com> References: <5931a4e1.87cf620a.7fe4b.337c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1497034475329.29429@iped.uio.no> Hi Larry, all, the actual link you sent reads 'this chess robot will destroy you in nine minutes...'; the video on the technology you mention can be accessed in the right column of that same link (just in case others had trouble following the link). Larry, you mean has something to say about the other thread on Yasuko's paper and the associated theme of emotions and infrastructures? Or? Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss Sent: 02 June 2017 19:48 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Technology that modulates indicative participation https://www.cnet.com/videos/this-chess-robot-will-destroy-you-itra-taiwan-computex/ Thought this technology that translates sign language to written text messages has something to say about ...? Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Fri Jun 9 12:11:53 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 19:11:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> , <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and CHAT. And so I was thinking that the question relates to that of the connection between sociology and psychology, does not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a number of procedures at the airport, got into a plain to fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive from Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect generated. I could not help but to think on the relation between infrastructure and emotion all the way... Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Michael, to pick up this thread: ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these include making the very production and assembly available to each other. In particular the phrase: ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar observation within a note # 1 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the actual state of affairs of a social practice. Instead of conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, the activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to retain the important insight, which is consistent with Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a science does not merely exist in its practices, it exists as its practices. The perspective is vital to an anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, 1992, p. 175). So the two phrases ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a way of making visible a work or a method or a discipline AS practices. For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. ? While Husserl provided the direction for our ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by case for the particular sciences??are obscured by Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and as a certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. That is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual work-sites of any science. And there they also lose the instructed actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual world-generating collaborations. They lose the phenomenon by losing just-how their instructed actions are administered to reveal for the scientists their work, as well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any lebenswelt practices. They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived work of sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their promise was neither noticed nor recognized by bench practitioners of any science. The program of The Crisis was never taken up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 of an actual science. It has only been used to illustrate cases for ep istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in any and every particular science. These absent details can involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the local endogenous practices of social order production and accountability, and their coherent substantive material, which might include board notes, personal notebooks, diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? The theme here is the shift from a theory being ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to become a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno practices]. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Wolff-Michael Roth Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started Thanks Martin, I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently said---from what you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these include making the very production and assembly available to each other. In all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel wrote considerably on the invisible background assumption . . . Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi Wolff-Michael, > > I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the suggestion that EM > starts from the assumption that people (simply) make visible order that has > its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an encyclopedia article by Doug > Maynard and Teddy Kardash: > > > Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in the work of Harold > Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods in and through > which members concertedly produce and assemble the features of everyday > life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or theoretically > depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this intelligible > organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, procedural behaviors > or methods and practices. > > Martin > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > > Martin, > I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the methods, > the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very > different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. Garfinkel > describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, > interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal > analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these > methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM does > not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely > elsewhere. > Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is not > interested in the change but how people do make change and the required > work visible to each other. > Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also as > instructability, speaks to change. A > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > on behalf of Larry Purss >> > Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Martin, > This sentence, > ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? > And therefore makes visible change as the norm > Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel > kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I > meant development. So I am going to change my question: > > What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, > personal) with EM. > > You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. > How does EM feature in it? > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > on behalf of Martin John Packer mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> > Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Hi Alfredo, > > I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does > not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people > (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. > Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > > Martin > > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach > to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM > do with questions of change. > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 12:35:04 2017 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 12:35:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Technology that modulates indicative participation In-Reply-To: <1497034475329.29429@iped.uio.no> References: <5931a4e1.87cf620a.7fe4b.337c@mx.google.com> <1497034475329.29429@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <593af867.8c3f630a.d783.8478@mx.google.com> Alfredo, I sent this as an aside to the main discussion to focus on this notion of modulating experience. In this example if modulating a sign language into spoken form becomes seamless then the visual channel and hand gestures (having the qualia of language processing) could be translated (modulated) into another indicative form. I was imagining the potential of this emerging technology for communication. This was why I opened a separate thread but it may have some relevance to what Mike Cole mentioned. Garfinkle and ethno methods exploring indicative procedures occurring both within situations and also AS situations that in our practices become within Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: June 9, 2017 11:56 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Technology that modulates indicative participation Hi Larry, all, the actual link you sent reads 'this chess robot will destroy you in nine minutes...'; the video on the technology you mention can be accessed in the right column of that same link (just in case others had trouble following the link). Larry, you mean has something to say about the other thread on Yasuko's paper and the associated theme of emotions and infrastructures? Or? Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss Sent: 02 June 2017 19:48 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Technology that modulates indicative participation https://www.cnet.com/videos/this-chess-robot-will-destroy-you-itra-taiwan-computex/ Thought this technology that translates sign language to written text messages has something to say about ...? Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From ablunden@mira.net Fri Jun 9 19:03:53 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:03:53 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms which are necessarily pursued in relatively independent research communities, despite being part of the same science. What makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is the use of concepts which are shared across the whole science and are necessarily connected in the constitution of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic concepts such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are basic to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. Therefore the educational psychologist may not do any research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal education (for example) by by dint of the fact "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one research field can enter the research in the other, and from time to time problems in educational psychology will find their solution in the social theory of formal educational institutions, and vice versa. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > I had to make a pause in my contributing to the discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and CHAT. And so I was thinking that the question relates to that of the connection between sociology and psychology, does not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? > > To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a number of procedures at the airport, got into a plain to fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive from Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect generated. I could not help but to think on the relation between infrastructure and emotion all the way... > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Larry Purss > Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Michael, to pick up this thread: > ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in > and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these > include making the very production and assembly available to each other. > > In particular the phrase: > > ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. > > Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar observation within a note # 1 > > 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the actual state of affairs of a social practice. Instead of conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, the activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to retain the important insight, which is consistent with Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a science does not merely exist in its practices, it exists as its practices. The perspective is vital to an anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, 1992, p. 175). > > So the two phrases > ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a way of making visible a work or a method or a discipline AS practices. > > For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. > > ? While Husserl provided the direction for our ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by case for the particular sciences??are obscured by Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and as a certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. That is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual work-sites of any science. And there they also lose the instructed actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual world-generating collaborations. They lose the phenomenon by losing just-how their instructed actions are administered to reveal for the scientists their work, as well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any lebenswelt practices. > They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived work of sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their promise was neither noticed nor recognized by bench practitioners of any science. The program of The Crisis was never taken up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o > f an actual science. It has only been used to illustrate cases for ep > istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in any and every particular science. These absent details can involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the local endogenous practices of social order production and accountability, and their coherent substantive material, which might include board notes, personal notebooks, diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? > > The theme here is the shift from a theory being ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to become a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno practices]. > > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Wolff-Michael Roth > Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Thanks Martin, > > I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently said---from what > you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in > and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these > include making the very production and assembly available to each other. In > all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel wrote considerably > on the invisible background assumption . . . > > Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > * > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Hi Wolff-Michael, >> >> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the suggestion that EM >> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make visible order that has >> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an encyclopedia article by Doug >> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: >> >> >> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in the work of Harold >> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods in and through >> which members concertedly produce and assemble the features of everyday >> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or theoretically >> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this intelligible >> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, procedural behaviors >> or methods and practices. >> >> Martin >> >> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < >> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Martin, >> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the methods, >> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very >> different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. Garfinkel >> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, >> interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal >> analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these >> methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM does >> not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely >> elsewhere. >> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is not >> interested in the change but how people do make change and the required >> work visible to each other. >> Michael >> >> >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> -------------------- >> Applied Cognitive Science >> MacLaurin Building A567 >> University of Victoria >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >> >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >> > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >> >> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > >> wrote: >> >> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also as >> instructability, speaks to change. A >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu> > mailman.ucsd.edu>> >> on behalf of Larry Purss > Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> Martin, >> This sentence, >> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? >> And therefore makes visible change as the norm >> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel >> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I >> meant development. So I am going to change my question: >> >> What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, >> personal) with EM. >> >> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. >> How does EM feature in it? >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> mailman.ucsd.edu> > mailman.ucsd.edu>> >> on behalf of Martin John Packer > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> >> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> Hi Alfredo, >> >> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does >> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people >> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. >> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >> > wrote: >> >> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach >> to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM >> do with questions of change. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Jun 9 19:48:16 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:48:16 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal education (for example) by by" should be "do research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal education (for example) by" Sorry, Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms which are > necessarily pursued in relatively independent research > communities, despite being part of the same science. What > makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is > the use of concepts which are shared across the whole > science and are necessarily connected in the constitution > of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic concepts > such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are basic > to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. > Therefore the educational psychologist may *not* do *any > *research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal > education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact > "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one > research field can enter the research in the other, and > from time to time problems in educational psychology will > find their solution in the social theory of formal > educational institutions, and vice versa. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the >> discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating >> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I >> have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic >> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning >> emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and CHAT. >> And so I was thinking that the question relates to that >> of the connection between sociology and psychology, does >> not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology >> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? >> >> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a >> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove >> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a >> number of procedures at the airport, got into a plain to >> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then >> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a >> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive from >> Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. >> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect >> generated. I could not help but to think on the relation >> between infrastructure and emotion all the way... >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Larry >> Purss >> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> Michael, to pick up this thread: >> ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the >> methods* in >> and through which members concertedly produce and >> assemble," and these >> include making the very production and assembly available >> to each other. >> >> In particular the phrase: >> >> ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. >> >> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar >> observation within a note # 1 >> >> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the >> actual state of affairs of a social practice. Instead of >> conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which >> ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its >> practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, >> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of >> sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A >> science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, the >> activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to >> retain the important insight, which is consistent with >> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a >> science does not merely exist in its practices, it exists >> as its practices. The perspective is vital to an >> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed >> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. >> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, >> 1992, p. 175). >> >> So the two phrases >> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a >> way of making visible a work or a method or a discipline >> AS practices. >> >> For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of >> the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is >> generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it >> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another >> approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. >> >> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our >> ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of >> various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c >> organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by >> case for the particular sciences??are obscured by >> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The >> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and as a >> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the >> phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. That >> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual work-sites of >> any science. And there they also lose the instructed >> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual >> world-generating collaborations. They lose the phenomenon >> by losing just-how their instructed actions are >> administered to reveal for the scientists their work, as >> well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s >> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally >> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any >> lebenswelt practices. >> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with >> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely >> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of >> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived work of >> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is >> no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The >> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental >> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their promise >> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench practitioners >> of any science. The program of The Crisis was never taken >> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? >> in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of >> its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, >> despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed >> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the >> program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet >> even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a >> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o >> f an actual science. It has only been used to >> illustrate cases for ep >> istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the >> task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. >> This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very >> little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived >> work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures >> forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in any and >> every particular science. These absent details can >> involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the >> local endogenous practices of social order production and >> accountability, and their coherent substantive material, >> which might include board notes, personal notebooks, >> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? >> >> The theme here is the shift from a theory being >> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to >> re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to become >> a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno >> practices]. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From: Wolff-Michael Roth >> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> Thanks Martin, >> >> I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently >> said---from what >> you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: >> "*the methods* in >> and through which members concertedly produce and >> assemble," and these >> include making the very production and assembly available >> to each other. In >> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel >> wrote considerably >> on the invisible background assumption . . . >> >> Michael >> >> >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Applied Cognitive Science >> MacLaurin Building A567 >> University of Victoria >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >> >> >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >> * >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer >> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Wolff-Michael, >>> >>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the >>> suggestion that EM >>> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make >>> visible order that has >>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an >>> encyclopedia article by Doug >>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: >>> >>> >>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in >>> the work of Harold >>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods >>> in and through >>> which members concertedly produce and assemble the >>> features of everyday >>> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or >>> theoretically >>> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this >>> intelligible >>> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, >>> procedural behaviors >>> or methods and practices. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < >>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Martin, >>> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the >>> study of the methods, >>> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In >>> this, it is very >>> different from all other research, qualitative and >>> quantitative. Garfinkel >>> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among >>> others, >>> interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM >>> from formal >>> analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods >>> because these >>> methods are different from the methods people use in >>> everyday life. EM does >>> not dispute the results of other research; its interests >>> are completely >>> elsewhere. >>> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what >>> people do; it is not >>> interested in the change but how people do make change >>> and the required >>> work visible to each other. >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> -------------------- >>> Applied Cognitive Science >>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>> University of Victoria >>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>> >>> >>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>> >> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other >>> EM/CA studies also as >>> instructability, speaks to change. A >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>> >> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>> on behalf of Larry Purss >>> >> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >>> Martin, >>> This sentence, >>> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? >>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm >>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of >>> possibility for novel >>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] >>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>> >>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word >>> change where I >>> meant development. So I am going to change my question: >>> >>> What do and could do researchers concerned with >>> development (social, >>> personal) with EM. >>> >>> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the >>> topic of development. >>> How does EM feature in it? >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>> >> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>> on behalf of Martin John Packer >>> >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >>> Hi Alfredo, >>> >>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, >>> because it does >>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the >>> methods that people >>> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various >>> kinds of order. >>> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> >> >>> > wrote: >>> >>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a >>> powerful approach >>> to stick the realities of social life; but I always >>> wondered what does EM >>> do with questions of change. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 20:40:00 2017 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 21:40:00 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Alfredo, your post reminded me of a very cool book that was recently published, called Affective Circuits. Check it out: http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/A/bo24663172.html Your post particularly reminded me of the cover (which you can see at the link) which is an image of a perhaps troubled face superimposed on a map of central Europe. Conjures up quite a bit of, yes, affect, at this particular historical moment. (oh, and what's between the covers is great too!). -greg On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > I had to make a pause in my contributing to the discussion, as we (my > family) are these days relocating from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the > moment). But I have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic that > came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning emotion and infrastructure, > and then about ANT and CHAT. And so I was thinking that the question > relates to that of the connection between sociology and psychology, does > not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology without a sociology in > either ANT or CHAT? > > To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a 7-year and a > 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove us) from (no longer) home to > the airport, then, after a number of procedures at the airport, got into a > plain to fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then Amsterdam - > Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a high-speed train to Alicante. > Then a (family) drive from Alicante to a small town in the province of > Valencia. That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect generated. I > could not help but to think on the relation between infrastructure and > emotion all the way... > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Larry Purss > Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Michael, to pick up this thread: > ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in > and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these > include making the very production and assembly available to each other. > > In particular the phrase: > > ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. > > Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar observation within a > note # 1 > > 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the actual state of > affairs of a social practice. Instead of conceiving of a metaphysical > object, ??science,?? which ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of > its practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, the task of any > inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of sciences takes its departure from > this recognition. A science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, > the activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to retain the > important insight, which is consistent with Husserl?s own phenomenological > discoveries, that a science does not merely exist in its practices, it > exists as its practices. The perspective is vital to an anti-essentialist > inquiry, and the phrase is employed frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. > Gar?nkel, 2002, p. 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, > 1992, p. 175). > > So the two phrases > ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a way of making > visible a work or a method or a discipline AS practices. > > For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of the article > written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is generated: This page may be > taking us off topic or it may be relevant?? This page is bringing in > another approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. > > ? While Husserl provided the direction for our ethnomethodological > investigations, the lived work of various sciences??in their coherent, > work-site speci?c organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by > case for the particular sciences??are obscured by Husserl?s use of formal > generalities in both The Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, > and as a certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the phenomenon they > were written carefully to describe. That is, they lose the phenomenon of > the actual work-sites of any science. And there they also lose the > instructed actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual world-generating > collaborations. They lose the phenomenon by losing just-how their > instructed actions are administered to reveal for the scientists their > work, as well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s program, the > lebenswelt origins, being only formally exhibited by the lectures, do not > actually describe any lebenswelt practices. They do not exhibit lebenswelt > practices with lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely allude > to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of Husserl?s program, then, > is that the actual lived work of sciences are alluded to as lived > practices. And that is no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The > Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental program. Their > incongruous anomaly is that their promise was neither noticed nor > recognized by bench practitioners of any science. The program of The Crisis > was never taken up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? > in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of its discovered > topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, despite the fact that scientists > rarely welcomed Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the > program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet even there > Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a radical way, as the familiar > haecceities2 of an actual science. It has only been used to illustrate > cases for ep > istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the task of taking up > Husserl?s program seriously remains. This is not to say that no ground has > been gained. Very little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived > work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures forcefully point > to the absence of haecceities in any and every particular science. These > absent details can involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the > local endogenous practices of social order production and accountability, > and their coherent substantive material, which might include board notes, > personal notebooks, diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? > > The theme here is the shift from a theory being ?formally exhibited? > within disciplinary methods to re-mark what was previously formally > exhibited to become a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno > practices]. > > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Wolff-Michael Roth > Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Thanks Martin, > > I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently said---from what > you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in > and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these > include making the very production and assembly available to each other. In > all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel wrote considerably > on the invisible background assumption . . . > > Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > wrote: > > > Hi Wolff-Michael, > > > > I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the suggestion that EM > > starts from the assumption that people (simply) make visible order that > has > > its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an encyclopedia article by > Doug > > Maynard and Teddy Kardash: > > > > > > Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in the work of > Harold > > Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods in and through > > which members concertedly produce and assemble the features of everyday > > life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or theoretically > > depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this intelligible > > organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, procedural behaviors > > or methods and practices. > > > > Martin > > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Martin, > > I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the methods, > > the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very > > different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. > Garfinkel > > describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, > > interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal > > analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these > > methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM > does > > not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely > > elsewhere. > > Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is > not > > interested in the change but how people do make change and the required > > work visible to each other. > > Michael > > > > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > -------------------- > > Applied Cognitive Science > > MacLaurin Building A567 > > University of Victoria > > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > > > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > > mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > > > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > wrote: > > > > Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also > as > > instructability, speaks to change. A > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > mailman.ucsd.edu> xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu>> > > on behalf of Larry Purss pscholar2@gmail.com > > >> > > Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > > > Martin, > > This sentence, > > ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? > > And therefore makes visible change as the norm > > Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel > > kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > > > Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I > > meant development. So I am going to change my question: > > > > What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, > > personal) with EM. > > > > You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. > > How does EM feature in it? > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > mailman.ucsd.edu> xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu>> > > on behalf of Martin John Packer > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> > > Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > > > Hi Alfredo, > > > > I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does > > not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people > > (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. > > Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > wrote: > > > > I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach > > to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM > > do with questions of change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jun 10 09:03:15 2017 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 09:03:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> In advancing this thread exploring sociology/psychology and their connections, Andy explores how these connections can be thought about within a single science or theory. This opens up the question of multiple approaches to how we relate sociology and psychology within differing sciences using uniting frames. Greg introduces the book (Affective Circuits) which is attempting to move beyond the concept of the nation state and the sending/receiving polarity of ?methodological nationalism? The difficulty becomes this focusing on multitudes of understanding (multiple cultural, economic and political contexts ? simultaneously unfolding). Then holding this multitude while considering kinship and intimate relations. The intent of this book to open up new ways of thinking about migration in which the search for marriage or ties to kin can sometimes re-place the search for work. The focus of the book exploring the way EVOKING powerful emotions regulate and disrupt ?affective circuits?. Definition of Affective Circuits: The social formations that emerge from the sending, withholding and receiving of goods, ideas, bodies, and emotions. These social formations being multitudes that occur simultaneously. Alfredo, emotions and infrastructure operating across multiple LATERAL sites or contexts seems to be a complex question. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Andy Blunden Sent: June 9, 2017 7:50 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal education (for example) by by" should be "do research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal education (for example) by" Sorry, Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms which are > necessarily pursued in relatively independent research > communities, despite being part of the same science. What > makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is > the use of concepts which are shared across the whole > science and are necessarily connected in the constitution > of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic concepts > such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are basic > to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. > Therefore the educational psychologist may *not* do *any > *research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal > education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact > "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one > research field can enter the research in the other, and > from time to time problems in educational psychology will > find their solution in the social theory of formal > educational institutions, and vice versa. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the >> discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating >> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I >> have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic >> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning >> emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and CHAT. >> And so I was thinking that the question relates to that >> of the connection between sociology and psychology, does >> not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology >> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? >> >> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a >> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove >> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a >> number of procedures at the airport, got into a plain to >> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then >> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a >> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive from >> Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. >> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect >> generated. I could not help but to think on the relation >> between infrastructure and emotion all the way... >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Larry >> Purss >> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> Michael, to pick up this thread: >> ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the >> methods* in >> and through which members concertedly produce and >> assemble," and these >> include making the very production and assembly available >> to each other. >> >> In particular the phrase: >> >> ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. >> >> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar >> observation within a note # 1 >> >> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the >> actual state of affairs of a social practice. Instead of >> conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which >> ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its >> practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, >> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of >> sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A >> science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, the >> activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to >> retain the important insight, which is consistent with >> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a >> science does not merely exist in its practices, it exists >> as its practices. The perspective is vital to an >> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed >> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. >> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, >> 1992, p. 175). >> >> So the two phrases >> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a >> way of making visible a work or a method or a discipline >> AS practices. >> >> For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of >> the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is >> generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it >> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another >> approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. >> >> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our >> ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of >> various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c >> organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by >> case for the particular sciences??are obscured by >> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The >> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and as a >> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the >> phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. That >> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual work-sites of >> any science. And there they also lose the instructed >> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual >> world-generating collaborations. They lose the phenomenon >> by losing just-how their instructed actions are >> administered to reveal for the scientists their work, as >> well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s >> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally >> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any >> lebenswelt practices. >> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with >> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely >> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of >> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived work of >> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is >> no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The >> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental >> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their promise >> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench practitioners >> of any science. The program of The Crisis was never taken >> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? >> in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of >> its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, >> despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed >> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the >> program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet >> even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a >> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o >> f an actual science. It has only been used to >> illustrate cases for ep >> istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the >> task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. >> This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very >> little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived >> work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures >> forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in any and >> every particular science. These absent details can >> involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the >> local endogenous practices of social order production and >> accountability, and their coherent substantive material, >> which might include board notes, personal notebooks, >> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? >> >> The theme here is the shift from a theory being >> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to >> re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to become >> a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno >> practices]. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From: Wolff-Michael Roth >> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> Thanks Martin, >> >> I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently >> said---from what >> you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: >> "*the methods* in >> and through which members concertedly produce and >> assemble," and these >> include making the very production and assembly available >> to each other. In >> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel >> wrote considerably >> on the invisible background assumption . . . >> >> Michael >> >> >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Applied Cognitive Science >> MacLaurin Building A567 >> University of Victoria >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >> >> >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >> * >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer >> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Wolff-Michael, >>> >>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the >>> suggestion that EM >>> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make >>> visible order that has >>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an >>> encyclopedia article by Doug >>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: >>> >>> >>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in >>> the work of Harold >>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods >>> in and through >>> which members concertedly produce and assemble the >>> features of everyday >>> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or >>> theoretically >>> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this >>> intelligible >>> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, >>> procedural behaviors >>> or methods and practices. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < >>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Martin, >>> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the >>> study of the methods, >>> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In >>> this, it is very >>> different from all other research, qualitative and >>> quantitative. Garfinkel >>> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among >>> others, >>> interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM >>> from formal >>> analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods >>> because these >>> methods are different from the methods people use in >>> everyday life. EM does >>> not dispute the results of other research; its interests >>> are completely >>> elsewhere. >>> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what >>> people do; it is not >>> interested in the change but how people do make change >>> and the required >>> work visible to each other. >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> -------------------- >>> Applied Cognitive Science >>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>> University of Victoria >>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>> >>> >>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>> >> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other >>> EM/CA studies also as >>> instructability, speaks to change. A >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>> >> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>> on behalf of Larry Purss >>> >> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >>> Martin, >>> This sentence, >>> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? >>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm >>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of >>> possibility for novel >>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] >>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>> >>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word >>> change where I >>> meant development. So I am going to change my question: >>> >>> What do and could do researchers concerned with >>> development (social, >>> personal) with EM. >>> >>> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the >>> topic of development. >>> How does EM feature in it? >>> Alfredo >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>> >> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>> on behalf of Martin John Packer >>> >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >>> Hi Alfredo, >>> >>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, >>> because it does >>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the >>> methods that people >>> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various >>> kinds of order. >>> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> >> >>> > wrote: >>> >>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a >>> powerful approach >>> to stick the realities of social life; but I always >>> wondered what does EM >>> do with questions of change. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > From wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com Sat Jun 10 09:15:24 2017 From: wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com (Wolff-Michael Roth) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 09:15:24 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Does Vygotsky not move beyond the dichotomy sociology | psychology when he acknowledges ("Concrete Human Psychology") that "any higher psychological function was a social relation" and "personality: the ensemble of societal relations"? On emotions you might find interesting the work of Randall Collins, "Interaction ritual chains", which acknowledges the constitutive relation between individual and collective emotions Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > In advancing this thread exploring sociology/psychology and their > connections, Andy explores how these connections can be thought about > within a single science or theory. This opens up the question of multiple > approaches to how we relate sociology and psychology within differing > sciences using uniting frames. > > Greg introduces the book (Affective Circuits) which is attempting to move > beyond the concept of the nation state and the sending/receiving polarity > of ?methodological nationalism? > The difficulty becomes this focusing on multitudes of understanding > (multiple cultural, economic and political contexts ? simultaneously > unfolding). > Then holding this multitude while considering kinship and intimate > relations. > The intent of this book to open up new ways of thinking about migration in > which the search for marriage or ties to kin can sometimes re-place the > search for work. > The focus of the book exploring the way EVOKING powerful emotions regulate > and disrupt ?affective circuits?. > > Definition of Affective Circuits: > The social formations that emerge from the sending, withholding and > receiving of goods, ideas, bodies, and emotions. > These social formations being multitudes that occur simultaneously. > > Alfredo, emotions and infrastructure operating across multiple LATERAL > sites or contexts seems to be a complex question. > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Andy Blunden > Sent: June 9, 2017 7:50 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY > > Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the institutions > of formal education (for example) by by" > should be "do research on the dynamics of the institutions > of formal education (for example) by" > > Sorry, > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms which are > > necessarily pursued in relatively independent research > > communities, despite being part of the same science. What > > makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is > > the use of concepts which are shared across the whole > > science and are necessarily connected in the constitution > > of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic concepts > > such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are basic > > to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. > > Therefore the educational psychologist may *not* do *any > > *research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal > > education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact > > "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one > > research field can enter the research in the other, and > > from time to time problems in educational psychology will > > find their solution in the social theory of formal > > educational institutions, and vice versa. > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > > On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > >> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the > >> discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating > >> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I > >> have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic > >> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning > >> emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and CHAT. > >> And so I was thinking that the question relates to that > >> of the connection between sociology and psychology, does > >> not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology > >> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? > >> > >> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a > >> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove > >> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a > >> number of procedures at the airport, got into a plain to > >> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then > >> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a > >> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive from > >> Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. > >> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect > >> generated. I could not help but to think on the relation > >> between infrastructure and emotion all the way... > >> > >> Alfredo > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of Larry > >> Purss > >> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >> > >> Michael, to pick up this thread: > >> ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the > >> methods* in > >> and through which members concertedly produce and > >> assemble," and these > >> include making the very production and assembly available > >> to each other. > >> > >> In particular the phrase: > >> > >> ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. > >> > >> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar > >> observation within a note # 1 > >> > >> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the > >> actual state of affairs of a social practice. Instead of > >> conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which > >> ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its > >> practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, > >> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of > >> sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A > >> science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, the > >> activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to > >> retain the important insight, which is consistent with > >> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a > >> science does not merely exist in its practices, it exists > >> as its practices. The perspective is vital to an > >> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed > >> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. > >> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, > >> 1992, p. 175). > >> > >> So the two phrases > >> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a > >> way of making visible a work or a method or a discipline > >> AS practices. > >> > >> For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of > >> the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is > >> generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it > >> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another > >> approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. > >> > >> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our > >> ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of > >> various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c > >> organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by > >> case for the particular sciences??are obscured by > >> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The > >> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and as a > >> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the > >> phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. That > >> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual work-sites of > >> any science. And there they also lose the instructed > >> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual > >> world-generating collaborations. They lose the phenomenon > >> by losing just-how their instructed actions are > >> administered to reveal for the scientists their work, as > >> well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s > >> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally > >> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any > >> lebenswelt practices. > >> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with > >> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely > >> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of > >> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived work of > >> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is > >> no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The > >> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental > >> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their promise > >> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench practitioners > >> of any science. The program of The Crisis was never taken > >> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? > >> in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of > >> its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, > >> despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed > >> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the > >> program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet > >> even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a > >> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o > >> f an actual science. It has only been used to > >> illustrate cases for ep > >> istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the > >> task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. > >> This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very > >> little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived > >> work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures > >> forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in any and > >> every particular science. These absent details can > >> involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the > >> local endogenous practices of social order production and > >> accountability, and their coherent substantive material, > >> which might include board notes, personal notebooks, > >> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? > >> > >> The theme here is the shift from a theory being > >> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to > >> re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to become > >> a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno > >> practices]. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >> > >> From: Wolff-Michael Roth > >> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >> > >> Thanks Martin, > >> > >> I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently > >> said---from what > >> you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: > >> "*the methods* in > >> and through which members concertedly produce and > >> assemble," and these > >> include making the very production and assembly available > >> to each other. In > >> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel > >> wrote considerably > >> on the invisible background assumption . . . > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> > >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------- > >> > >> Applied Cognitive Science > >> MacLaurin Building A567 > >> University of Victoria > >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > >> > >> > >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > >> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Wolff-Michael, > >>> > >>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the > >>> suggestion that EM > >>> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make > >>> visible order that has > >>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an > >>> encyclopedia article by Doug > >>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: > >>> > >>> > >>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in > >>> the work of Harold > >>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods > >>> in and through > >>> which members concertedly produce and assemble the > >>> features of everyday > >>> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or > >>> theoretically > >>> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this > >>> intelligible > >>> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, > >>> procedural behaviors > >>> or methods and practices. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > >>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Martin, > >>> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the > >>> study of the methods, > >>> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In > >>> this, it is very > >>> different from all other research, qualitative and > >>> quantitative. Garfinkel > >>> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among > >>> others, > >>> interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM > >>> from formal > >>> analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods > >>> because these > >>> methods are different from the methods people use in > >>> everyday life. EM does > >>> not dispute the results of other research; its interests > >>> are completely > >>> elsewhere. > >>> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what > >>> people do; it is not > >>> interested in the change but how people do make change > >>> and the required > >>> work visible to each other. > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> > >>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> -------------------- > >>> Applied Cognitive Science > >>> MacLaurin Building A567 > >>> University of Victoria > >>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > >>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > >>> > >>> > >>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > >>> >>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > >>> > >>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> >>> > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other > >>> EM/CA studies also as > >>> instructability, speaks to change. A > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> mailman.ucsd.edu> > >>> >>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > >>> on behalf of Larry Purss > >>> >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >>> > >>> Martin, > >>> This sentence, > >>> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? > >>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm > >>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of > >>> possibility for novel > >>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] > >>> > >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >>> > >>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >>> > >>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word > >>> change where I > >>> meant development. So I am going to change my question: > >>> > >>> What do and could do researchers concerned with > >>> development (social, > >>> personal) with EM. > >>> > >>> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the > >>> topic of development. > >>> How does EM feature in it? > >>> Alfredo > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> mailman.ucsd.edu> > >>> >>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> > >>> on behalf of Martin John Packer > >>> >>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> > >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >>> > >>> Hi Alfredo, > >>> > >>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, > >>> because it does > >>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the > >>> methods that people > >>> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various > >>> kinds of order. > >>> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> >>> > >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a > >>> powerful approach > >>> to stick the realities of social life; but I always > >>> wondered what does EM > >>> do with questions of change. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Jun 10 15:12:26 2017 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 16:12:26 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0B424D40-1C8D-48CF-8EB3-176FE8A42223@gmail.com> I offer the following link to a NY Times article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/style/anxiety-is-the-new-depression-xanax.html?action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&module=Trending&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article&_r=0 The article is titled ?Prozac Nation Is Now the United States of Xanax?. The connection between psychology is made explicit: "While to epidemiologists both disorders are medical conditions, anxiety is starting to seem like a sociological condition, too: a shared cultural experience that feeds on alarmist CNN graphics and metastasizes through social media. As depression was to the 1990s ? summoned forth by Kurt Cobain, ?Listening to Prozac,? Seattle fog and Temple of the Dog dirges on MTV, viewed from under a flannel blanket ? so it seems we have entered a new Age of Anxiety. Monitoring our heart rates. Swiping ceaselessly at our iPhones. Filling meditation studios in an effort to calm our racing thoughts.? What I wonder is how CHAT has dealt with mind altering drugs, for example, Prozac and Xanax. And consider the placebo effect, which operates on the mind and body through suggestion, much as language does, not through some blunt biological mechanism. I am pointing to the tool/sign distinction between tool and sign. Depression is seen in this article as the an aspect of the zeitgeist of the late 20th century, and anxiety as part of the zeitgeist of the early 21st century. Did Hegel talk about psychoactive drugs: alcohol, caffeine, etc.? Did Marx? Did Vygotsky? Certainly anthropologists have touched on the topic, though only Carlos Castaneda pops into my head. :( Respectfully Henry > On Jun 10, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: > > Does Vygotsky not move beyond the dichotomy sociology | psychology when he > acknowledges ("Concrete Human Psychology") that "any higher psychological > function was a social relation" and "personality: the ensemble of societal > relations"? > > On emotions you might find interesting the work of Randall Collins, > "Interaction ritual chains", which acknowledges the constitutive relation > between individual and collective emotions > > Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > * > > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> In advancing this thread exploring sociology/psychology and their >> connections, Andy explores how these connections can be thought about >> within a single science or theory. This opens up the question of multiple >> approaches to how we relate sociology and psychology within differing >> sciences using uniting frames. >> >> Greg introduces the book (Affective Circuits) which is attempting to move >> beyond the concept of the nation state and the sending/receiving polarity >> of ?methodological nationalism? >> The difficulty becomes this focusing on multitudes of understanding >> (multiple cultural, economic and political contexts ? simultaneously >> unfolding). >> Then holding this multitude while considering kinship and intimate >> relations. >> The intent of this book to open up new ways of thinking about migration in >> which the search for marriage or ties to kin can sometimes re-place the >> search for work. >> The focus of the book exploring the way EVOKING powerful emotions regulate >> and disrupt ?affective circuits?. >> >> Definition of Affective Circuits: >> The social formations that emerge from the sending, withholding and >> receiving of goods, ideas, bodies, and emotions. >> These social formations being multitudes that occur simultaneously. >> >> Alfredo, emotions and infrastructure operating across multiple LATERAL >> sites or contexts seems to be a complex question. >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From: Andy Blunden >> Sent: June 9, 2017 7:50 PM >> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY >> >> Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the institutions >> of formal education (for example) by by" >> should be "do research on the dynamics of the institutions >> of formal education (for example) by" >> >> Sorry, >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms which are >>> necessarily pursued in relatively independent research >>> communities, despite being part of the same science. What >>> makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is >>> the use of concepts which are shared across the whole >>> science and are necessarily connected in the constitution >>> of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic concepts >>> such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are basic >>> to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. >>> Therefore the educational psychologist may *not* do *any >>> *research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal >>> education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact >>> "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one >>> research field can enter the research in the other, and >>> from time to time problems in educational psychology will >>> find their solution in the social theory of formal >>> educational institutions, and vice versa. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> >>> On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>>> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the >>>> discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating >>>> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I >>>> have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic >>>> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning >>>> emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and CHAT. >>>> And so I was thinking that the question relates to that >>>> of the connection between sociology and psychology, does >>>> not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology >>>> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? >>>> >>>> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a >>>> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove >>>> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a >>>> number of procedures at the airport, got into a plain to >>>> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then >>>> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a >>>> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive from >>>> Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. >>>> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect >>>> generated. I could not help but to think on the relation >>>> between infrastructure and emotion all the way... >>>> >>>> Alfredo >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of Larry >>>> Purss >>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>> >>>> Michael, to pick up this thread: >>>> ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the >>>> methods* in >>>> and through which members concertedly produce and >>>> assemble," and these >>>> include making the very production and assembly available >>>> to each other. >>>> >>>> In particular the phrase: >>>> >>>> ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. >>>> >>>> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar >>>> observation within a note # 1 >>>> >>>> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the >>>> actual state of affairs of a social practice. Instead of >>>> conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which >>>> ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its >>>> practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, >>>> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of >>>> sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A >>>> science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, the >>>> activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to >>>> retain the important insight, which is consistent with >>>> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a >>>> science does not merely exist in its practices, it exists >>>> as its practices. The perspective is vital to an >>>> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed >>>> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. >>>> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, >>>> 1992, p. 175). >>>> >>>> So the two phrases >>>> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a >>>> way of making visible a work or a method or a discipline >>>> AS practices. >>>> >>>> For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of >>>> the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is >>>> generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it >>>> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another >>>> approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. >>>> >>>> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our >>>> ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of >>>> various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c >>>> organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by >>>> case for the particular sciences??are obscured by >>>> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The >>>> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and as a >>>> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the >>>> phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. That >>>> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual work-sites of >>>> any science. And there they also lose the instructed >>>> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual >>>> world-generating collaborations. They lose the phenomenon >>>> by losing just-how their instructed actions are >>>> administered to reveal for the scientists their work, as >>>> well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s >>>> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally >>>> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any >>>> lebenswelt practices. >>>> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with >>>> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely >>>> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of >>>> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived work of >>>> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is >>>> no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The >>>> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental >>>> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their promise >>>> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench practitioners >>>> of any science. The program of The Crisis was never taken >>>> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? >>>> in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of >>>> its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, >>>> despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed >>>> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the >>>> program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet >>>> even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a >>>> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o >>>> f an actual science. It has only been used to >>>> illustrate cases for ep >>>> istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the >>>> task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. >>>> This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very >>>> little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived >>>> work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures >>>> forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in any and >>>> every particular science. These absent details can >>>> involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the >>>> local endogenous practices of social order production and >>>> accountability, and their coherent substantive material, >>>> which might include board notes, personal notebooks, >>>> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? >>>> >>>> The theme here is the shift from a theory being >>>> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to >>>> re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to become >>>> a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno >>>> practices]. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>> >>>> From: Wolff-Michael Roth >>>> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>> >>>> Thanks Martin, >>>> >>>> I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently >>>> said---from what >>>> you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: >>>> "*the methods* in >>>> and through which members concertedly produce and >>>> assemble," and these >>>> include making the very production and assembly available >>>> to each other. In >>>> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel >>>> wrote considerably >>>> on the invisible background assumption . . . >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> -------------------- >>>> >>>> Applied Cognitive Science >>>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>>> University of Victoria >>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>>> >>>> >>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>>> > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Wolff-Michael, >>>>> >>>>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the >>>>> suggestion that EM >>>>> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make >>>>> visible order that has >>>>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an >>>>> encyclopedia article by Doug >>>>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in >>>>> the work of Harold >>>>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods >>>>> in and through >>>>> which members concertedly produce and assemble the >>>>> features of everyday >>>>> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or >>>>> theoretically >>>>> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this >>>>> intelligible >>>>> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, >>>>> procedural behaviors >>>>> or methods and practices. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < >>>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Martin, >>>>> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the >>>>> study of the methods, >>>>> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In >>>>> this, it is very >>>>> different from all other research, qualitative and >>>>> quantitative. Garfinkel >>>>> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among >>>>> others, >>>>> interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM >>>>> from formal >>>>> analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods >>>>> because these >>>>> methods are different from the methods people use in >>>>> everyday life. EM does >>>>> not dispute the results of other research; its interests >>>>> are completely >>>>> elsewhere. >>>>> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what >>>>> people do; it is not >>>>> interested in the change but how people do make change >>>>> and the required >>>>> work visible to each other. >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> -------------------- >>>>> Applied Cognitive Science >>>>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>>>> University of Victoria >>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>>>> >>>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>>>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other >>>>> EM/CA studies also as >>>>> instructability, speaks to change. A >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>> >>>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>>>> on behalf of Larry Purss >>>>> >>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>> >>>>> Martin, >>>>> This sentence, >>>>> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? >>>>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm >>>>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of >>>>> possibility for novel >>>>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>>> >>>>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word >>>>> change where I >>>>> meant development. So I am going to change my question: >>>>> >>>>> What do and could do researchers concerned with >>>>> development (social, >>>>> personal) with EM. >>>>> >>>>> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the >>>>> topic of development. >>>>> How does EM feature in it? >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>> >>>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>>>> on behalf of Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> >>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>> >>>>> Hi Alfredo, >>>>> >>>>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, >>>>> because it does >>>>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the >>>>> methods that people >>>>> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various >>>>> kinds of order. >>>>> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>> >>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a >>>>> powerful approach >>>>> to stick the realities of social life; but I always >>>>> wondered what does EM >>>>> do with questions of change. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Jun 10 20:29:59 2017 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 21:29:59 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: <0B424D40-1C8D-48CF-8EB3-176FE8A42223@gmail.com> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> <0B424D40-1C8D-48CF-8EB3-176FE8A42223@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F07101B-E2CD-4B15-957A-7B503DA353B6@gmail.com> Anthropologists have a lot to say about culture/mind co-constitution. Arthur Kleinman did the classic study of culture and mental health where he looks at the syndrome neurasthenia which was a very common diagnosis in China at the time, and asks if it is the same thing as depression. He suggests that it isn't. The DSM used to have a category of "culture bound syndromes" but if I recall correctly, they got rid of it in the latest DSM (much to the dismay of many psychological anthropologists - if I've followed the politics correctly). Perhaps we could call anxiety a culture (and time) bound syndrome? Eugene reikhel has also done some cool work on the placebo effect. And I've heard other interesting research about what it takes to get the placebo effect to work. Things like white and light blue pills working better in places like Italy (think Italian flag...). Fascinating stuff. Culture is definitely in the mind, or, perhaps "it (at least partly) IS the mind". Also, I recently heard that researchers are once again allowed to experiment with psychotropic drugs. I suspect that some interesting research will result... Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 10, 2017, at 4:12 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > I offer the following link to a NY Times article: > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/style/anxiety-is-the-new-depression-xanax.html?action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&module=Trending&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article&_r=0 > > The article is titled ?Prozac Nation Is Now the United States of Xanax?. The connection between psychology is made explicit: > > "While to epidemiologists both disorders are medical conditions, anxiety is starting to seem like a sociological condition, too: a shared cultural experience that feeds on alarmist CNN graphics and metastasizes through social media. As depression was to the 1990s ? summoned forth by Kurt Cobain, ?Listening to Prozac,? Seattle fog and Temple of the Dog dirges on MTV, viewed from under a flannel blanket ? so it seems we have entered a new Age of Anxiety. Monitoring our heart rates. Swiping ceaselessly at our iPhones. Filling meditation studios in an effort to calm our racing thoughts.? > > What I wonder is how CHAT has dealt with mind altering drugs, for example, Prozac and Xanax. And consider the placebo effect, which operates on the mind and body through suggestion, much as language does, not through some blunt biological mechanism. I am pointing to the tool/sign distinction between tool and sign. > > Depression is seen in this article as the an aspect of the zeitgeist of the late 20th century, and anxiety as part of the zeitgeist of the early 21st century. Did Hegel talk about psychoactive drugs: alcohol, caffeine, etc.? Did Marx? Did Vygotsky? Certainly anthropologists have touched on the topic, though only Carlos Castaneda pops into my head. :( > > Respectfully > Henry > >> On Jun 10, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: >> >> Does Vygotsky not move beyond the dichotomy sociology | psychology when he >> acknowledges ("Concrete Human Psychology") that "any higher psychological >> function was a social relation" and "personality: the ensemble of societal >> relations"? >> >> On emotions you might find interesting the work of Randall Collins, >> "Interaction ritual chains", which acknowledges the constitutive relation >> between individual and collective emotions >> >> Michael >> >> >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Applied Cognitive Science >> MacLaurin Building A567 >> University of Victoria >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >> >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >> * >> >>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> In advancing this thread exploring sociology/psychology and their >>> connections, Andy explores how these connections can be thought about >>> within a single science or theory. This opens up the question of multiple >>> approaches to how we relate sociology and psychology within differing >>> sciences using uniting frames. >>> >>> Greg introduces the book (Affective Circuits) which is attempting to move >>> beyond the concept of the nation state and the sending/receiving polarity >>> of ?methodological nationalism? >>> The difficulty becomes this focusing on multitudes of understanding >>> (multiple cultural, economic and political contexts ? simultaneously >>> unfolding). >>> Then holding this multitude while considering kinship and intimate >>> relations. >>> The intent of this book to open up new ways of thinking about migration in >>> which the search for marriage or ties to kin can sometimes re-place the >>> search for work. >>> The focus of the book exploring the way EVOKING powerful emotions regulate >>> and disrupt ?affective circuits?. >>> >>> Definition of Affective Circuits: >>> The social formations that emerge from the sending, withholding and >>> receiving of goods, ideas, bodies, and emotions. >>> These social formations being multitudes that occur simultaneously. >>> >>> Alfredo, emotions and infrastructure operating across multiple LATERAL >>> sites or contexts seems to be a complex question. >>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>> >>> From: Andy Blunden >>> Sent: June 9, 2017 7:50 PM >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY >>> >>> Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the institutions >>> of formal education (for example) by by" >>> should be "do research on the dynamics of the institutions >>> of formal education (for example) by" >>> >>> Sorry, >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> >>>> On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms which are >>>> necessarily pursued in relatively independent research >>>> communities, despite being part of the same science. What >>>> makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is >>>> the use of concepts which are shared across the whole >>>> science and are necessarily connected in the constitution >>>> of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic concepts >>>> such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are basic >>>> to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. >>>> Therefore the educational psychologist may *not* do *any >>>> *research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal >>>> education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact >>>> "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one >>>> research field can enter the research in the other, and >>>> from time to time problems in educational psychology will >>>> find their solution in the social theory of formal >>>> educational institutions, and vice versa. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>> >>>>> On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>>>> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the >>>>> discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating >>>>> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I >>>>> have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic >>>>> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning >>>>> emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and CHAT. >>>>> And so I was thinking that the question relates to that >>>>> of the connection between sociology and psychology, does >>>>> not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology >>>>> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? >>>>> >>>>> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a >>>>> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove >>>>> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a >>>>> number of procedures at the airport, got into a plain to >>>>> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then >>>>> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a >>>>> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive from >>>>> Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. >>>>> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect >>>>> generated. I could not help but to think on the relation >>>>> between infrastructure and emotion all the way... >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> on behalf of Larry >>>>> Purss >>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>> >>>>> Michael, to pick up this thread: >>>>> ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the >>>>> methods* in >>>>> and through which members concertedly produce and >>>>> assemble," and these >>>>> include making the very production and assembly available >>>>> to each other. >>>>> >>>>> In particular the phrase: >>>>> >>>>> ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. >>>>> >>>>> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar >>>>> observation within a note # 1 >>>>> >>>>> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the >>>>> actual state of affairs of a social practice. Instead of >>>>> conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which >>>>> ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its >>>>> practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, >>>>> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of >>>>> sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A >>>>> science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, the >>>>> activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to >>>>> retain the important insight, which is consistent with >>>>> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a >>>>> science does not merely exist in its practices, it exists >>>>> as its practices. The perspective is vital to an >>>>> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed >>>>> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. >>>>> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, >>>>> 1992, p. 175). >>>>> >>>>> So the two phrases >>>>> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a >>>>> way of making visible a work or a method or a discipline >>>>> AS practices. >>>>> >>>>> For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of >>>>> the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is >>>>> generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it >>>>> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another >>>>> approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. >>>>> >>>>> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our >>>>> ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of >>>>> various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c >>>>> organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by >>>>> case for the particular sciences??are obscured by >>>>> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The >>>>> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and as a >>>>> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the >>>>> phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. That >>>>> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual work-sites of >>>>> any science. And there they also lose the instructed >>>>> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual >>>>> world-generating collaborations. They lose the phenomenon >>>>> by losing just-how their instructed actions are >>>>> administered to reveal for the scientists their work, as >>>>> well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s >>>>> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally >>>>> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any >>>>> lebenswelt practices. >>>>> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with >>>>> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely >>>>> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of >>>>> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived work of >>>>> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is >>>>> no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The >>>>> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental >>>>> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their promise >>>>> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench practitioners >>>>> of any science. The program of The Crisis was never taken >>>>> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? >>>>> in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of >>>>> its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, >>>>> despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed >>>>> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the >>>>> program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet >>>>> even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a >>>>> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o >>>>> f an actual science. It has only been used to >>>>> illustrate cases for ep >>>>> istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the >>>>> task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. >>>>> This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very >>>>> little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived >>>>> work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures >>>>> forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in any and >>>>> every particular science. These absent details can >>>>> involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the >>>>> local endogenous practices of social order production and >>>>> accountability, and their coherent substantive material, >>>>> which might include board notes, personal notebooks, >>>>> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? >>>>> >>>>> The theme here is the shift from a theory being >>>>> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to >>>>> re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to become >>>>> a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno >>>>> practices]. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>>> >>>>> From: Wolff-Michael Roth >>>>> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Martin, >>>>> >>>>> I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently >>>>> said---from what >>>>> you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: >>>>> "*the methods* in >>>>> and through which members concertedly produce and >>>>> assemble," and these >>>>> include making the very production and assembly available >>>>> to each other. In >>>>> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel >>>>> wrote considerably >>>>> on the invisible background assumption . . . >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> -------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Applied Cognitive Science >>>>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>>>> University of Victoria >>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>>>> >> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Wolff-Michael, >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the >>>>>> suggestion that EM >>>>>> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make >>>>>> visible order that has >>>>>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an >>>>>> encyclopedia article by Doug >>>>>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in >>>>>> the work of Harold >>>>>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods >>>>>> in and through >>>>>> which members concertedly produce and assemble the >>>>>> features of everyday >>>>>> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or >>>>>> theoretically >>>>>> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this >>>>>> intelligible >>>>>> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, >>>>>> procedural behaviors >>>>>> or methods and practices. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < >>>>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin, >>>>>> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the >>>>>> study of the methods, >>>>>> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In >>>>>> this, it is very >>>>>> different from all other research, qualitative and >>>>>> quantitative. Garfinkel >>>>>> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among >>>>>> others, >>>>>> interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM >>>>>> from formal >>>>>> analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods >>>>>> because these >>>>>> methods are different from the methods people use in >>>>>> everyday life. EM does >>>>>> not dispute the results of other research; its interests >>>>>> are completely >>>>>> elsewhere. >>>>>> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what >>>>>> people do; it is not >>>>>> interested in the change but how people do make change >>>>>> and the required >>>>>> work visible to each other. >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------- >>>>>> Applied Cognitive Science >>>>>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>>>>> University of Victoria >>>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>>>>> >>>>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>>>>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other >>>>>> EM/CA studies also as >>>>>> instructability, speaks to change. A >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>> >>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>>>>> on behalf of Larry Purss >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin, >>>>>> This sentence, >>>>>> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? >>>>>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm >>>>>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of >>>>>> possibility for novel >>>>>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word >>>>>> change where I >>>>>> meant development. So I am going to change my question: >>>>>> >>>>>> What do and could do researchers concerned with >>>>>> development (social, >>>>>> personal) with EM. >>>>>> >>>>>> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the >>>>>> topic of development. >>>>>> How does EM feature in it? >>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>> >>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>>>>> on behalf of Martin John Packer >>>>>> >>>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> >>>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Alfredo, >>>>>> >>>>>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, >>>>>> because it does >>>>>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the >>>>>> methods that people >>>>>> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various >>>>>> kinds of order. >>>>>> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a >>>>>> powerful approach >>>>>> to stick the realities of social life; but I always >>>>>> wondered what does EM >>>>>> do with questions of change. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Jun 10 21:49:27 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 14:49:27 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Declarations are cheap, Michael. Denunciations of dichotomy are a dime-a-dozen. The point is: how is it done? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 11/06/2017 2:15 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: > Does Vygotsky not move beyond the dichotomy sociology | > psychology when he acknowledges ("Concrete Human > Psychology") that "any higher psychological function was a > social relation" and "personality: the ensemble of > societal relations"? > > On emotions you might find interesting the work of Randall > Collins, "Interaction ritual chains", which acknowledges > the constitutive relation between individual and > collective emotions > > Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > > New book: */The Mathematics of Mathematics > /* > > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > In advancing this thread exploring > sociology/psychology and their connections, Andy > explores how these connections can be thought about > within a single science or theory. This opens up the > question of multiple approaches to how we relate > sociology and psychology within differing sciences > using uniting frames. > > Greg introduces the book (Affective Circuits) which is > attempting to move beyond the concept of the nation > state and the sending/receiving polarity of > ?methodological nationalism? > The difficulty becomes this focusing on multitudes of > understanding (multiple cultural, economic and > political contexts ? simultaneously unfolding). > Then holding this multitude while considering kinship > and intimate relations. > The intent of this book to open up new ways of > thinking about migration in which the search for > marriage or ties to kin can sometimes re-place the > search for work. > The focus of the book exploring the way EVOKING > powerful emotions regulate and disrupt ?affective > circuits?. > > Definition of Affective Circuits: > The social formations that emerge from the sending, > withholding and receiving of goods, ideas, bodies, and > emotions. > These social formations being multitudes that occur > simultaneously. > > Alfredo, emotions and infrastructure operating across > multiple LATERAL sites or contexts seems to be a > complex question. > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Andy Blunden > Sent: June 9, 2017 7:50 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY > > Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the > institutions > of formal education (for example) by by" > should be "do research on the dynamics of the institutions > of formal education (for example) by" > > Sorry, > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms > which are > > necessarily pursued in relatively independent research > > communities, despite being part of the same science. > What > > makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is > > the use of concepts which are shared across the whole > > science and are necessarily connected in the > constitution > > of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic > concepts > > such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are > basic > > to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. > > Therefore the educational psychologist may *not* do *any > > *research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal > > education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact > > "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one > > research field can enter the research in the other, and > > from time to time problems in educational psychology > will > > find their solution in the social theory of formal > > educational institutions, and vice versa. > > > > Andy > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > > > On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > >> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the > >> discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating > >> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I > >> have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic > >> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning > >> emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and > CHAT. > >> And so I was thinking that the question relates to that > >> of the connection between sociology and psychology, > does > >> not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology > >> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? > >> > >> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a > >> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend > drove > >> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a > >> number of procedures at the airport, got into a > plain to > >> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then > >> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us > to a > >> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive > from > >> Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. > >> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect > >> generated. I could not help but to think on the > relation > >> between infrastructure and emotion all the way... > >> > >> Alfredo > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> > on behalf of > Larry > >> Purss > > >> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >> > >> Michael, to pick up this thread: > >> ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the > >> methods* in > >> and through which members concertedly produce and > >> assemble," and these > >> include making the very production and assembly > available > >> to each other. > >> > >> In particular the phrase: > >> > >> ?in and through which? the methods are assembled > [arranged]. > >> > >> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar > >> observation within a note # 1 > >> > >> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the > >> actual state of affairs of a social practice. > Instead of > >> conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which > >> ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its > >> practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, > >> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of > >> sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A > >> science is nothing more than, and nothing less > than, the > >> activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to > >> retain the important insight, which is consistent with > >> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a > >> science does not merely exist in its practices, it > exists > >> as its practices. The perspective is vital to an > >> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed > >> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. > >> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, > >> 1992, p. 175). > >> > >> So the two phrases > >> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are > indicating a > >> way of making visible a work or a method or a > discipline > >> AS practices. > >> > >> For further elaboration here reproduced a full > page of > >> the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note > #1 is > >> generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it > >> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another > >> approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. > >> > >> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our > >> ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of > >> various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c > >> organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by > >> case for the particular sciences??are obscured by > >> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The > >> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and > as a > >> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the > >> phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. > That > >> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual > work-sites of > >> any science. And there they also lose the instructed > >> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual > >> world-generating collaborations. They lose the > phenomenon > >> by losing just-how their instructed actions are > >> administered to reveal for the scientists their > work, as > >> well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s > >> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally > >> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any > >> lebenswelt practices. > >> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with > >> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely > >> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of > >> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived > work of > >> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is > >> no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The > >> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental > >> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their > promise > >> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench > practitioners > >> of any science. The program of The Crisis was never > taken > >> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a > ??gap?? > >> in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of > >> its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, > >> despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed > >> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the > >> program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet > >> even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a > >> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o > >> f an actual science. It has only been used to > >> illustrate cases for ep > >> istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the > >> task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. > >> This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very > >> little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived > >> work of any actual science. On the contrary, the > lectures > >> forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in > any and > >> every particular science. These absent details can > >> involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the > >> local endogenous practices of social order > production and > >> accountability, and their coherent substantive > material, > >> which might include board notes, personal notebooks, > >> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? > >> > >> The theme here is the shift from a theory being > >> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to > >> re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to > become > >> a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno > >> practices]. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >> > >> From: Wolff-Michael Roth > >> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >> > >> Thanks Martin, > >> > >> I do not view what I am saying--though it is > differently > >> said---from what > >> you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: > >> "*the methods* in > >> and through which members concertedly produce and > >> assemble," and these > >> include making the very production and assembly > available > >> to each other. In > >> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and > Garfinkel > >> wrote considerably > >> on the invisible background assumption . . . > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> > >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Applied Cognitive Science > >> MacLaurin Building A567 > >> University of Victoria > >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > >> > > >> > >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > >> > >* > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Wolff-Michael, > >>> > >>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the > >>> suggestion that EM > >>> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make > >>> visible order that has > >>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an > >>> encyclopedia article by Doug > >>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: > >>> > >>> > >>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology > originating in > >>> the work of Harold > >>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the > methods > >>> in and through > >>> which members concertedly produce and assemble the > >>> features of everyday > >>> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or > >>> theoretically > >>> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this > >>> intelligible > >>> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, > >>> procedural behaviors > >>> or methods and practices. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > >>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com > >> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Martin, > >>> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the > >>> study of the methods, > >>> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In > >>> this, it is very > >>> different from all other research, qualitative and > >>> quantitative. Garfinkel > >>> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, > among > >>> others, > >>> interpretive studies of social life. He > distinguishes EM > >>> from formal > >>> analytic studies, all those that have to specify > methods > >>> because these > >>> methods are different from the methods people use in > >>> everyday life. EM does > >>> not dispute the results of other research; its > interests > >>> are completely > >>> elsewhere. > >>> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what > >>> people do; it is not > >>> interested in the change but how people do make change > >>> and the required > >>> work visible to each other. > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> > >>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> -------------------- > >>> Applied Cognitive Science > >>> MacLaurin Building A567 > >>> University of Victoria > >>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > >>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > >>> > > >>> > >>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > >>> > > >>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > >>> > >>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> > >>> >> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other > >>> EM/CA studies also as > >>> instructability, speaks to change. A > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> > >>> mailman.ucsd.edu >> > >>> on behalf of Larry Purss > >>> > >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >>> > >>> Martin, > >>> This sentence, > >>> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? > >>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm > >>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of > >>> possibility for novel > >>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving > theme] > >>> > >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >>> > >>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >>> > >>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the > word > >>> change where I > >>> meant development. So I am going to change my > question: > >>> > >>> What do and could do researchers concerned with > >>> development (social, > >>> personal) with EM. > >>> > >>> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the > >>> topic of development. > >>> How does EM feature in it? > >>> Alfredo > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> > >>> mailman.ucsd.edu >> > >>> on behalf of Martin John Packer > >>> >>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >> > >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > >>> > >>> Hi Alfredo, > >>> > >>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with > change, > >>> because it does > >>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the > >>> methods that people > >>> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various > >>> kinds of order. > >>> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> > >>> > > >>> >> wrote: > >>> > >>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating > and a > >>> powerful approach > >>> to stick the realities of social life; but I always > >>> wondered what does EM > >>> do with questions of change. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sun Jun 11 01:39:20 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 08:39:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no>, Message-ID: <1497170360526.95096@iped.uio.no> Greg, that's a wonderful reference! And yes, that's exactly the kind of circuits I had in mind, only that the transition we suffered may be just leisure in the face of contemporary African migrations to Europe. Interestingly, and connecting with the CHAT issue, the book Greg mentions is about societal relations, affect, and 'personhood' (that's the term the book uses), but Vygotsky is not among the references. Neither are Callon (a major reference in Kawatoko/Ueno's articles) or other ANT related researchers. I am still reading it! Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Greg Thompson Sent: 10 June 2017 05:40 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY Alfredo, your post reminded me of a very cool book that was recently published, called Affective Circuits. Check it out: http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/A/bo24663172.html Your post particularly reminded me of the cover (which you can see at the link) which is an image of a perhaps troubled face superimposed on a map of central Europe. Conjures up quite a bit of, yes, affect, at this particular historical moment. (oh, and what's between the covers is great too!). -greg On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > I had to make a pause in my contributing to the discussion, as we (my > family) are these days relocating from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the > moment). But I have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic that > came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning emotion and infrastructure, > and then about ANT and CHAT. And so I was thinking that the question > relates to that of the connection between sociology and psychology, does > not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology without a sociology in > either ANT or CHAT? > > To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a 7-year and a > 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove us) from (no longer) home to > the airport, then, after a number of procedures at the airport, got into a > plain to fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then Amsterdam - > Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a high-speed train to Alicante. > Then a (family) drive from Alicante to a small town in the province of > Valencia. That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect generated. I > could not help but to think on the relation between infrastructure and > emotion all the way... > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Larry Purss > Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Michael, to pick up this thread: > ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in > and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these > include making the very production and assembly available to each other. > > In particular the phrase: > > ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. > > Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar observation within a > note # 1 > > 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the actual state of > affairs of a social practice. Instead of conceiving of a metaphysical > object, ??science,?? which ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of > its practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, the task of any > inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of sciences takes its departure from > this recognition. A science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, > the activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to retain the > important insight, which is consistent with Husserl?s own phenomenological > discoveries, that a science does not merely exist in its practices, it > exists as its practices. The perspective is vital to an anti-essentialist > inquiry, and the phrase is employed frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. > Gar?nkel, 2002, p. 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, > 1992, p. 175). > > So the two phrases > ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a way of making > visible a work or a method or a discipline AS practices. > > For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of the article > written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is generated: This page may be > taking us off topic or it may be relevant?? This page is bringing in > another approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. > > ? While Husserl provided the direction for our ethnomethodological > investigations, the lived work of various sciences??in their coherent, > work-site speci?c organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by > case for the particular sciences??are obscured by Husserl?s use of formal > generalities in both The Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, > and as a certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the phenomenon they > were written carefully to describe. That is, they lose the phenomenon of > the actual work-sites of any science. And there they also lose the > instructed actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual world-generating > collaborations. They lose the phenomenon by losing just-how their > instructed actions are administered to reveal for the scientists their > work, as well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s program, the > lebenswelt origins, being only formally exhibited by the lectures, do not > actually describe any lebenswelt practices. They do not exhibit lebenswelt > practices with lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely allude > to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of Husserl?s program, then, > is that the actual lived work of sciences are alluded to as lived > practices. And that is no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The > Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental program. Their > incongruous anomaly is that their promise was neither noticed nor > recognized by bench practitioners of any science. The program of The Crisis > was never taken up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? > in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of its discovered > topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, despite the fact that scientists > rarely welcomed Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the > program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet even there > Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a radical way, as the familiar > haecceities2 of an actual science. It has only been used to illustrate > cases for ep > istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the task of taking up > Husserl?s program seriously remains. This is not to say that no ground has > been gained. Very little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived > work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures forcefully point > to the absence of haecceities in any and every particular science. These > absent details can involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the > local endogenous practices of social order production and accountability, > and their coherent substantive material, which might include board notes, > personal notebooks, diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? > > The theme here is the shift from a theory being ?formally exhibited? > within disciplinary methods to re-mark what was previously formally > exhibited to become a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno > practices]. > > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Wolff-Michael Roth > Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > Thanks Martin, > > I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently said---from what > you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: "*the methods* in > and through which members concertedly produce and assemble," and these > include making the very production and assembly available to each other. In > all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel wrote considerably > on the invisible background assumption . . . > > Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > wrote: > > > Hi Wolff-Michael, > > > > I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the suggestion that EM > > starts from the assumption that people (simply) make visible order that > has > > its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an encyclopedia article by > Doug > > Maynard and Teddy Kardash: > > > > > > Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in the work of > Harold > > Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods in and through > > which members concertedly produce and assemble the features of everyday > > life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or theoretically > > depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this intelligible > > organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, procedural behaviors > > or methods and practices. > > > > Martin > > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Martin, > > I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the study of the methods, > > the work, people use to make social orders visible. In this, it is very > > different from all other research, qualitative and quantitative. > Garfinkel > > describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among others, > > interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM from formal > > analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods because these > > methods are different from the methods people use in everyday life. EM > does > > not dispute the results of other research; its interests are completely > > elsewhere. > > Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what people do; it is > not > > interested in the change but how people do make change and the required > > work visible to each other. > > Michael > > > > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > -------------------- > > Applied Cognitive Science > > MacLaurin Building A567 > > University of Victoria > > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > > > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > > mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > > > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > wrote: > > > > Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other EM/CA studies also > as > > instructability, speaks to change. A > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > mailman.ucsd.edu> xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu>> > > on behalf of Larry Purss pscholar2@gmail.com > > >> > > Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > > > Martin, > > This sentence, > > ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? > > And therefore makes visible change as the norm > > Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of possibility for novel > > kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > > Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > > > Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word change where I > > meant development. So I am going to change my question: > > > > What do and could do researchers concerned with development (social, > > personal) with EM. > > > > You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the topic of development. > > How does EM feature in it? > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > mailman.ucsd.edu> xmca-l-bounces@ > > mailman.ucsd.edu>> > > on behalf of Martin John Packer > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> > > Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > > > > Hi Alfredo, > > > > I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, because it does > > not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the methods that people > > (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various kinds of order. > > Creating and sustaining order always requires change. > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > wrote: > > > > I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a powerful approach > > to stick the realities of social life; but I always wondered what does EM > > do with questions of change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sun Jun 11 02:15:39 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 09:15:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: <3F07101B-E2CD-4B15-957A-7B503DA353B6@gmail.com> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> <0B424D40-1C8D-48CF-8EB3-176FE8A42223@gmail.com>, <3F07101B-E2CD-4B15-957A-7B503DA353B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1497172539254.1895@iped.uio.no> Although not concerning 'mental' conditions, from an ANT perspective Mol & Law's 1994 on Anaemia seems relevant too (attached). Just to complement Greg's references, here is a link to an academia posted article on placebo by Reikhel. http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/1808589/Post-Soviet_Placebos.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1497176067&Signature=shNGW5lQJ9vJF9xSQ6yon7Lju9g%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DPost-Soviet_Placebos_Epistemology_and_Au.pdf ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sent: 11 June 2017 05:29 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY Anthropologists have a lot to say about culture/mind co-constitution. Arthur Kleinman did the classic study of culture and mental health where he looks at the syndrome neurasthenia which was a very common diagnosis in China at the time, and asks if it is the same thing as depression. He suggests that it isn't. The DSM used to have a category of "culture bound syndromes" but if I recall correctly, they got rid of it in the latest DSM (much to the dismay of many psychological anthropologists - if I've followed the politics correctly). Perhaps we could call anxiety a culture (and time) bound syndrome? Eugene reikhel has also done some cool work on the placebo effect. And I've heard other interesting research about what it takes to get the placebo effect to work. Things like white and light blue pills working better in places like Italy (think Italian flag...). Fascinating stuff. Culture is definitely in the mind, or, perhaps "it (at least partly) IS the mind". Also, I recently heard that researchers are once again allowed to experiment with psychotropic drugs. I suspect that some interesting research will result... Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 10, 2017, at 4:12 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > I offer the following link to a NY Times article: > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/style/anxiety-is-the-new-depression-xanax.html?action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&module=Trending&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article&_r=0 > > The article is titled ?Prozac Nation Is Now the United States of Xanax?. The connection between psychology is made explicit: > > "While to epidemiologists both disorders are medical conditions, anxiety is starting to seem like a sociological condition, too: a shared cultural experience that feeds on alarmist CNN graphics and metastasizes through social media. As depression was to the 1990s ? summoned forth by Kurt Cobain, ?Listening to Prozac,? Seattle fog and Temple of the Dog dirges on MTV, viewed from under a flannel blanket ? so it seems we have entered a new Age of Anxiety. Monitoring our heart rates. Swiping ceaselessly at our iPhones. Filling meditation studios in an effort to calm our racing thoughts.? > > What I wonder is how CHAT has dealt with mind altering drugs, for example, Prozac and Xanax. And consider the placebo effect, which operates on the mind and body through suggestion, much as language does, not through some blunt biological mechanism. I am pointing to the tool/sign distinction between tool and sign. > > Depression is seen in this article as the an aspect of the zeitgeist of the late 20th century, and anxiety as part of the zeitgeist of the early 21st century. Did Hegel talk about psychoactive drugs: alcohol, caffeine, etc.? Did Marx? Did Vygotsky? Certainly anthropologists have touched on the topic, though only Carlos Castaneda pops into my head. :( > > Respectfully > Henry > >> On Jun 10, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: >> >> Does Vygotsky not move beyond the dichotomy sociology | psychology when he >> acknowledges ("Concrete Human Psychology") that "any higher psychological >> function was a social relation" and "personality: the ensemble of societal >> relations"? >> >> On emotions you might find interesting the work of Randall Collins, >> "Interaction ritual chains", which acknowledges the constitutive relation >> between individual and collective emotions >> >> Michael >> >> >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Applied Cognitive Science >> MacLaurin Building A567 >> University of Victoria >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >> >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >> * >> >>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> In advancing this thread exploring sociology/psychology and their >>> connections, Andy explores how these connections can be thought about >>> within a single science or theory. This opens up the question of multiple >>> approaches to how we relate sociology and psychology within differing >>> sciences using uniting frames. >>> >>> Greg introduces the book (Affective Circuits) which is attempting to move >>> beyond the concept of the nation state and the sending/receiving polarity >>> of ?methodological nationalism? >>> The difficulty becomes this focusing on multitudes of understanding >>> (multiple cultural, economic and political contexts ? simultaneously >>> unfolding). >>> Then holding this multitude while considering kinship and intimate >>> relations. >>> The intent of this book to open up new ways of thinking about migration in >>> which the search for marriage or ties to kin can sometimes re-place the >>> search for work. >>> The focus of the book exploring the way EVOKING powerful emotions regulate >>> and disrupt ?affective circuits?. >>> >>> Definition of Affective Circuits: >>> The social formations that emerge from the sending, withholding and >>> receiving of goods, ideas, bodies, and emotions. >>> These social formations being multitudes that occur simultaneously. >>> >>> Alfredo, emotions and infrastructure operating across multiple LATERAL >>> sites or contexts seems to be a complex question. >>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>> >>> From: Andy Blunden >>> Sent: June 9, 2017 7:50 PM >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY >>> >>> Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the institutions >>> of formal education (for example) by by" >>> should be "do research on the dynamics of the institutions >>> of formal education (for example) by" >>> >>> Sorry, >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> >>>> On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms which are >>>> necessarily pursued in relatively independent research >>>> communities, despite being part of the same science. What >>>> makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is >>>> the use of concepts which are shared across the whole >>>> science and are necessarily connected in the constitution >>>> of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic concepts >>>> such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are basic >>>> to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. >>>> Therefore the educational psychologist may *not* do *any >>>> *research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal >>>> education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact >>>> "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one >>>> research field can enter the research in the other, and >>>> from time to time problems in educational psychology will >>>> find their solution in the social theory of formal >>>> educational institutions, and vice versa. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>> >>>>> On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>>>> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the >>>>> discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating >>>>> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I >>>>> have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic >>>>> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning >>>>> emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and CHAT. >>>>> And so I was thinking that the question relates to that >>>>> of the connection between sociology and psychology, does >>>>> not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology >>>>> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? >>>>> >>>>> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a >>>>> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove >>>>> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a >>>>> number of procedures at the airport, got into a plain to >>>>> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then >>>>> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a >>>>> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive from >>>>> Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. >>>>> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect >>>>> generated. I could not help but to think on the relation >>>>> between infrastructure and emotion all the way... >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> on behalf of Larry >>>>> Purss >>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>> >>>>> Michael, to pick up this thread: >>>>> ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the >>>>> methods* in >>>>> and through which members concertedly produce and >>>>> assemble," and these >>>>> include making the very production and assembly available >>>>> to each other. >>>>> >>>>> In particular the phrase: >>>>> >>>>> ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. >>>>> >>>>> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar >>>>> observation within a note # 1 >>>>> >>>>> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the >>>>> actual state of affairs of a social practice. Instead of >>>>> conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which >>>>> ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its >>>>> practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, >>>>> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of >>>>> sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A >>>>> science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, the >>>>> activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to >>>>> retain the important insight, which is consistent with >>>>> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a >>>>> science does not merely exist in its practices, it exists >>>>> as its practices. The perspective is vital to an >>>>> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed >>>>> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. >>>>> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, >>>>> 1992, p. 175). >>>>> >>>>> So the two phrases >>>>> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a >>>>> way of making visible a work or a method or a discipline >>>>> AS practices. >>>>> >>>>> For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of >>>>> the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is >>>>> generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it >>>>> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another >>>>> approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. >>>>> >>>>> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our >>>>> ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of >>>>> various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c >>>>> organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by >>>>> case for the particular sciences??are obscured by >>>>> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The >>>>> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and as a >>>>> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the >>>>> phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. That >>>>> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual work-sites of >>>>> any science. And there they also lose the instructed >>>>> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual >>>>> world-generating collaborations. They lose the phenomenon >>>>> by losing just-how their instructed actions are >>>>> administered to reveal for the scientists their work, as >>>>> well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s >>>>> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally >>>>> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any >>>>> lebenswelt practices. >>>>> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with >>>>> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely >>>>> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of >>>>> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived work of >>>>> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is >>>>> no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The >>>>> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental >>>>> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their promise >>>>> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench practitioners >>>>> of any science. The program of The Crisis was never taken >>>>> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? >>>>> in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of >>>>> its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, >>>>> despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed >>>>> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the >>>>> program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet >>>>> even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a >>>>> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o >>>>> f an actual science. It has only been used to >>>>> illustrate cases for ep >>>>> istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the >>>>> task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. >>>>> This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very >>>>> little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived >>>>> work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures >>>>> forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in any and >>>>> every particular science. These absent details can >>>>> involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the >>>>> local endogenous practices of social order production and >>>>> accountability, and their coherent substantive material, >>>>> which might include board notes, personal notebooks, >>>>> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? >>>>> >>>>> The theme here is the shift from a theory being >>>>> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to >>>>> re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to become >>>>> a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno >>>>> practices]. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>>> >>>>> From: Wolff-Michael Roth >>>>> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Martin, >>>>> >>>>> I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently >>>>> said---from what >>>>> you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: >>>>> "*the methods* in >>>>> and through which members concertedly produce and >>>>> assemble," and these >>>>> include making the very production and assembly available >>>>> to each other. In >>>>> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel >>>>> wrote considerably >>>>> on the invisible background assumption . . . >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> -------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Applied Cognitive Science >>>>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>>>> University of Victoria >>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>>>> >> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Wolff-Michael, >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the >>>>>> suggestion that EM >>>>>> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make >>>>>> visible order that has >>>>>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an >>>>>> encyclopedia article by Doug >>>>>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in >>>>>> the work of Harold >>>>>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods >>>>>> in and through >>>>>> which members concertedly produce and assemble the >>>>>> features of everyday >>>>>> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or >>>>>> theoretically >>>>>> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this >>>>>> intelligible >>>>>> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, >>>>>> procedural behaviors >>>>>> or methods and practices. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < >>>>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin, >>>>>> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the >>>>>> study of the methods, >>>>>> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In >>>>>> this, it is very >>>>>> different from all other research, qualitative and >>>>>> quantitative. Garfinkel >>>>>> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among >>>>>> others, >>>>>> interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM >>>>>> from formal >>>>>> analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods >>>>>> because these >>>>>> methods are different from the methods people use in >>>>>> everyday life. EM does >>>>>> not dispute the results of other research; its interests >>>>>> are completely >>>>>> elsewhere. >>>>>> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what >>>>>> people do; it is not >>>>>> interested in the change but how people do make change >>>>>> and the required >>>>>> work visible to each other. >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------- >>>>>> Applied Cognitive Science >>>>>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>>>>> University of Victoria >>>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>>>>> >>>>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>>>>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other >>>>>> EM/CA studies also as >>>>>> instructability, speaks to change. A >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>> >>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>>>>> on behalf of Larry Purss >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin, >>>>>> This sentence, >>>>>> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? >>>>>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm >>>>>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of >>>>>> possibility for novel >>>>>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word >>>>>> change where I >>>>>> meant development. So I am going to change my question: >>>>>> >>>>>> What do and could do researchers concerned with >>>>>> development (social, >>>>>> personal) with EM. >>>>>> >>>>>> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the >>>>>> topic of development. >>>>>> How does EM feature in it? >>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>> >>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>>>>> on behalf of Martin John Packer >>>>>> >>>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> >>>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Alfredo, >>>>>> >>>>>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, >>>>>> because it does >>>>>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the >>>>>> methods that people >>>>>> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various >>>>>> kinds of order. >>>>>> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a >>>>>> powerful approach >>>>>> to stick the realities of social life; but I always >>>>>> wondered what does EM >>>>>> do with questions of change. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mol & Law 1994.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2721755 bytes Desc: Mol & Law 1994.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20170611/8c9742f5/attachment-0001.pdf From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sun Jun 11 03:08:21 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:08:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: <1497172539254.1895@iped.uio.no> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> <0B424D40-1C8D-48CF-8EB3-176FE8A42223@gmail.com>, <3F07101B-E2CD-4B15-957A-7B503DA353B6@gmail.com>, <1497172539254.1895@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <1497175701135.46595@iped.uio.no> More background: In talking about "PSYCHOGENIC NETWORKS," Latour refers, among others, to Tobie Nathan's "ethnopsychiatry," which by the way involved working with African immigrants in Paris. Nathan's contribution is attached among that of others concerned on the topic 'Psychosocial and Trauma' in the Kosovo context. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: 11 June 2017 11:15 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY Although not concerning 'mental' conditions, from an ANT perspective Mol & Law's 1994 on Anaemia seems relevant too (attached). Just to complement Greg's references, here is a link to an academia posted article on placebo by Reikhel. http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/1808589/Post-Soviet_Placebos.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1497176067&Signature=shNGW5lQJ9vJF9xSQ6yon7Lju9g%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DPost-Soviet_Placebos_Epistemology_and_Au.pdf ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sent: 11 June 2017 05:29 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY Anthropologists have a lot to say about culture/mind co-constitution. Arthur Kleinman did the classic study of culture and mental health where he looks at the syndrome neurasthenia which was a very common diagnosis in China at the time, and asks if it is the same thing as depression. He suggests that it isn't. The DSM used to have a category of "culture bound syndromes" but if I recall correctly, they got rid of it in the latest DSM (much to the dismay of many psychological anthropologists - if I've followed the politics correctly). Perhaps we could call anxiety a culture (and time) bound syndrome? Eugene reikhel has also done some cool work on the placebo effect. And I've heard other interesting research about what it takes to get the placebo effect to work. Things like white and light blue pills working better in places like Italy (think Italian flag...). Fascinating stuff. Culture is definitely in the mind, or, perhaps "it (at least partly) IS the mind". Also, I recently heard that researchers are once again allowed to experiment with psychotropic drugs. I suspect that some interesting research will result... Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 10, 2017, at 4:12 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > I offer the following link to a NY Times article: > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/style/anxiety-is-the-new-depression-xanax.html?action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&module=Trending&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article&_r=0 > > The article is titled ?Prozac Nation Is Now the United States of Xanax?. The connection between psychology is made explicit: > > "While to epidemiologists both disorders are medical conditions, anxiety is starting to seem like a sociological condition, too: a shared cultural experience that feeds on alarmist CNN graphics and metastasizes through social media. As depression was to the 1990s ? summoned forth by Kurt Cobain, ?Listening to Prozac,? Seattle fog and Temple of the Dog dirges on MTV, viewed from under a flannel blanket ? so it seems we have entered a new Age of Anxiety. Monitoring our heart rates. Swiping ceaselessly at our iPhones. Filling meditation studios in an effort to calm our racing thoughts.? > > What I wonder is how CHAT has dealt with mind altering drugs, for example, Prozac and Xanax. And consider the placebo effect, which operates on the mind and body through suggestion, much as language does, not through some blunt biological mechanism. I am pointing to the tool/sign distinction between tool and sign. > > Depression is seen in this article as the an aspect of the zeitgeist of the late 20th century, and anxiety as part of the zeitgeist of the early 21st century. Did Hegel talk about psychoactive drugs: alcohol, caffeine, etc.? Did Marx? Did Vygotsky? Certainly anthropologists have touched on the topic, though only Carlos Castaneda pops into my head. :( > > Respectfully > Henry > >> On Jun 10, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: >> >> Does Vygotsky not move beyond the dichotomy sociology | psychology when he >> acknowledges ("Concrete Human Psychology") that "any higher psychological >> function was a social relation" and "personality: the ensemble of societal >> relations"? >> >> On emotions you might find interesting the work of Randall Collins, >> "Interaction ritual chains", which acknowledges the constitutive relation >> between individual and collective emotions >> >> Michael >> >> >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Applied Cognitive Science >> MacLaurin Building A567 >> University of Victoria >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >> >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >> * >> >>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> In advancing this thread exploring sociology/psychology and their >>> connections, Andy explores how these connections can be thought about >>> within a single science or theory. This opens up the question of multiple >>> approaches to how we relate sociology and psychology within differing >>> sciences using uniting frames. >>> >>> Greg introduces the book (Affective Circuits) which is attempting to move >>> beyond the concept of the nation state and the sending/receiving polarity >>> of ?methodological nationalism? >>> The difficulty becomes this focusing on multitudes of understanding >>> (multiple cultural, economic and political contexts ? simultaneously >>> unfolding). >>> Then holding this multitude while considering kinship and intimate >>> relations. >>> The intent of this book to open up new ways of thinking about migration in >>> which the search for marriage or ties to kin can sometimes re-place the >>> search for work. >>> The focus of the book exploring the way EVOKING powerful emotions regulate >>> and disrupt ?affective circuits?. >>> >>> Definition of Affective Circuits: >>> The social formations that emerge from the sending, withholding and >>> receiving of goods, ideas, bodies, and emotions. >>> These social formations being multitudes that occur simultaneously. >>> >>> Alfredo, emotions and infrastructure operating across multiple LATERAL >>> sites or contexts seems to be a complex question. >>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>> >>> From: Andy Blunden >>> Sent: June 9, 2017 7:50 PM >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY >>> >>> Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the institutions >>> of formal education (for example) by by" >>> should be "do research on the dynamics of the institutions >>> of formal education (for example) by" >>> >>> Sorry, >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> >>>> On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms which are >>>> necessarily pursued in relatively independent research >>>> communities, despite being part of the same science. What >>>> makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is >>>> the use of concepts which are shared across the whole >>>> science and are necessarily connected in the constitution >>>> of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic concepts >>>> such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are basic >>>> to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. >>>> Therefore the educational psychologist may *not* do *any >>>> *research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal >>>> education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact >>>> "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one >>>> research field can enter the research in the other, and >>>> from time to time problems in educational psychology will >>>> find their solution in the social theory of formal >>>> educational institutions, and vice versa. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>> >>>>> On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>>>> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the >>>>> discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating >>>>> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I >>>>> have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic >>>>> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning >>>>> emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and CHAT. >>>>> And so I was thinking that the question relates to that >>>>> of the connection between sociology and psychology, does >>>>> not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology >>>>> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? >>>>> >>>>> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a >>>>> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove >>>>> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a >>>>> number of procedures at the airport, got into a plain to >>>>> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then >>>>> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a >>>>> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive from >>>>> Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. >>>>> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect >>>>> generated. I could not help but to think on the relation >>>>> between infrastructure and emotion all the way... >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> on behalf of Larry >>>>> Purss >>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>> >>>>> Michael, to pick up this thread: >>>>> ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the >>>>> methods* in >>>>> and through which members concertedly produce and >>>>> assemble," and these >>>>> include making the very production and assembly available >>>>> to each other. >>>>> >>>>> In particular the phrase: >>>>> >>>>> ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. >>>>> >>>>> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar >>>>> observation within a note # 1 >>>>> >>>>> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the >>>>> actual state of affairs of a social practice. Instead of >>>>> conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which >>>>> ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its >>>>> practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, >>>>> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of >>>>> sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A >>>>> science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, the >>>>> activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to >>>>> retain the important insight, which is consistent with >>>>> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a >>>>> science does not merely exist in its practices, it exists >>>>> as its practices. The perspective is vital to an >>>>> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed >>>>> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. >>>>> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, >>>>> 1992, p. 175). >>>>> >>>>> So the two phrases >>>>> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a >>>>> way of making visible a work or a method or a discipline >>>>> AS practices. >>>>> >>>>> For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of >>>>> the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is >>>>> generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it >>>>> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another >>>>> approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. >>>>> >>>>> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our >>>>> ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of >>>>> various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c >>>>> organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by >>>>> case for the particular sciences??are obscured by >>>>> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The >>>>> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and as a >>>>> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the >>>>> phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. That >>>>> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual work-sites of >>>>> any science. And there they also lose the instructed >>>>> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual >>>>> world-generating collaborations. They lose the phenomenon >>>>> by losing just-how their instructed actions are >>>>> administered to reveal for the scientists their work, as >>>>> well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s >>>>> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally >>>>> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any >>>>> lebenswelt practices. >>>>> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with >>>>> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely >>>>> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of >>>>> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived work of >>>>> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is >>>>> no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The >>>>> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental >>>>> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their promise >>>>> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench practitioners >>>>> of any science. The program of The Crisis was never taken >>>>> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? >>>>> in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of >>>>> its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, >>>>> despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed >>>>> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the >>>>> program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet >>>>> even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a >>>>> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o >>>>> f an actual science. It has only been used to >>>>> illustrate cases for ep >>>>> istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the >>>>> task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. >>>>> This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very >>>>> little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived >>>>> work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures >>>>> forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in any and >>>>> every particular science. These absent details can >>>>> involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the >>>>> local endogenous practices of social order production and >>>>> accountability, and their coherent substantive material, >>>>> which might include board notes, personal notebooks, >>>>> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? >>>>> >>>>> The theme here is the shift from a theory being >>>>> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to >>>>> re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to become >>>>> a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno >>>>> practices]. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>>> >>>>> From: Wolff-Michael Roth >>>>> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Martin, >>>>> >>>>> I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently >>>>> said---from what >>>>> you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: >>>>> "*the methods* in >>>>> and through which members concertedly produce and >>>>> assemble," and these >>>>> include making the very production and assembly available >>>>> to each other. In >>>>> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel >>>>> wrote considerably >>>>> on the invisible background assumption . . . >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> -------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Applied Cognitive Science >>>>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>>>> University of Victoria >>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>>>> >> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Wolff-Michael, >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the >>>>>> suggestion that EM >>>>>> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make >>>>>> visible order that has >>>>>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an >>>>>> encyclopedia article by Doug >>>>>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in >>>>>> the work of Harold >>>>>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods >>>>>> in and through >>>>>> which members concertedly produce and assemble the >>>>>> features of everyday >>>>>> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or >>>>>> theoretically >>>>>> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this >>>>>> intelligible >>>>>> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, >>>>>> procedural behaviors >>>>>> or methods and practices. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < >>>>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin, >>>>>> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the >>>>>> study of the methods, >>>>>> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In >>>>>> this, it is very >>>>>> different from all other research, qualitative and >>>>>> quantitative. Garfinkel >>>>>> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among >>>>>> others, >>>>>> interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM >>>>>> from formal >>>>>> analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods >>>>>> because these >>>>>> methods are different from the methods people use in >>>>>> everyday life. EM does >>>>>> not dispute the results of other research; its interests >>>>>> are completely >>>>>> elsewhere. >>>>>> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what >>>>>> people do; it is not >>>>>> interested in the change but how people do make change >>>>>> and the required >>>>>> work visible to each other. >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------- >>>>>> Applied Cognitive Science >>>>>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>>>>> University of Victoria >>>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>>>>> >>>>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>>>>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other >>>>>> EM/CA studies also as >>>>>> instructability, speaks to change. A >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>> >>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>>>>> on behalf of Larry Purss >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin, >>>>>> This sentence, >>>>>> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? >>>>>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm >>>>>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of >>>>>> possibility for novel >>>>>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word >>>>>> change where I >>>>>> meant development. So I am going to change my question: >>>>>> >>>>>> What do and could do researchers concerned with >>>>>> development (social, >>>>>> personal) with EM. >>>>>> >>>>>> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the >>>>>> topic of development. >>>>>> How does EM feature in it? >>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>> >>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>>>>> on behalf of Martin John Packer >>>>>> >>>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> >>>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Alfredo, >>>>>> >>>>>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, >>>>>> because it does >>>>>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the >>>>>> methods that people >>>>>> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various >>>>>> kinds of order. >>>>>> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a >>>>>> powerful approach >>>>>> to stick the realities of social life; but I always >>>>>> wondered what does EM >>>>>> do with questions of change. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ptr_kosovo_en.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 614353 bytes Desc: ptr_kosovo_en.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20170611/2e25ff9e/attachment.pdf From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sun Jun 11 03:14:44 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:14:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: <1497175701135.46595@iped.uio.no> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <59299988.4660630a.1b13c.ea88@mx.google.com> <536379FF-C23E-4FBB-A3C8-72501BAB29F9@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> <0B424D40-1C8D-48CF-8EB3-176FE8A42223@gmail.com>, <3F07101B-E2CD-4B15-957A-7B503DA353B6@gmail.com>, <1497172539254.1895@iped.uio.no>, <1497175701135.46595@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <1497176083486.49915@iped.uio.no> And I also was thinking what Lois Holzman's 'social therapy' may have to say about the topic. A ________________________________________ From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: 11 June 2017 12:08 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY More background: In talking about "PSYCHOGENIC NETWORKS," Latour refers, among others, to Tobie Nathan's "ethnopsychiatry," which by the way involved working with African immigrants in Paris. Nathan's contribution is attached among that of others concerned on the topic 'Psychosocial and Trauma' in the Kosovo context. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: 11 June 2017 11:15 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY Although not concerning 'mental' conditions, from an ANT perspective Mol & Law's 1994 on Anaemia seems relevant too (attached). Just to complement Greg's references, here is a link to an academia posted article on placebo by Reikhel. http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/1808589/Post-Soviet_Placebos.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1497176067&Signature=shNGW5lQJ9vJF9xSQ6yon7Lju9g%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DPost-Soviet_Placebos_Epistemology_and_Au.pdf ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sent: 11 June 2017 05:29 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY Anthropologists have a lot to say about culture/mind co-constitution. Arthur Kleinman did the classic study of culture and mental health where he looks at the syndrome neurasthenia which was a very common diagnosis in China at the time, and asks if it is the same thing as depression. He suggests that it isn't. The DSM used to have a category of "culture bound syndromes" but if I recall correctly, they got rid of it in the latest DSM (much to the dismay of many psychological anthropologists - if I've followed the politics correctly). Perhaps we could call anxiety a culture (and time) bound syndrome? Eugene reikhel has also done some cool work on the placebo effect. And I've heard other interesting research about what it takes to get the placebo effect to work. Things like white and light blue pills working better in places like Italy (think Italian flag...). Fascinating stuff. Culture is definitely in the mind, or, perhaps "it (at least partly) IS the mind". Also, I recently heard that researchers are once again allowed to experiment with psychotropic drugs. I suspect that some interesting research will result... Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 10, 2017, at 4:12 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > I offer the following link to a NY Times article: > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/style/anxiety-is-the-new-depression-xanax.html?action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&module=Trending&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article&_r=0 > > The article is titled ?Prozac Nation Is Now the United States of Xanax?. The connection between psychology is made explicit: > > "While to epidemiologists both disorders are medical conditions, anxiety is starting to seem like a sociological condition, too: a shared cultural experience that feeds on alarmist CNN graphics and metastasizes through social media. As depression was to the 1990s ? summoned forth by Kurt Cobain, ?Listening to Prozac,? Seattle fog and Temple of the Dog dirges on MTV, viewed from under a flannel blanket ? so it seems we have entered a new Age of Anxiety. Monitoring our heart rates. Swiping ceaselessly at our iPhones. Filling meditation studios in an effort to calm our racing thoughts.? > > What I wonder is how CHAT has dealt with mind altering drugs, for example, Prozac and Xanax. And consider the placebo effect, which operates on the mind and body through suggestion, much as language does, not through some blunt biological mechanism. I am pointing to the tool/sign distinction between tool and sign. > > Depression is seen in this article as the an aspect of the zeitgeist of the late 20th century, and anxiety as part of the zeitgeist of the early 21st century. Did Hegel talk about psychoactive drugs: alcohol, caffeine, etc.? Did Marx? Did Vygotsky? Certainly anthropologists have touched on the topic, though only Carlos Castaneda pops into my head. :( > > Respectfully > Henry > >> On Jun 10, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: >> >> Does Vygotsky not move beyond the dichotomy sociology | psychology when he >> acknowledges ("Concrete Human Psychology") that "any higher psychological >> function was a social relation" and "personality: the ensemble of societal >> relations"? >> >> On emotions you might find interesting the work of Randall Collins, >> "Interaction ritual chains", which acknowledges the constitutive relation >> between individual and collective emotions >> >> Michael >> >> >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Applied Cognitive Science >> MacLaurin Building A567 >> University of Victoria >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >> >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >> * >> >>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> In advancing this thread exploring sociology/psychology and their >>> connections, Andy explores how these connections can be thought about >>> within a single science or theory. This opens up the question of multiple >>> approaches to how we relate sociology and psychology within differing >>> sciences using uniting frames. >>> >>> Greg introduces the book (Affective Circuits) which is attempting to move >>> beyond the concept of the nation state and the sending/receiving polarity >>> of ?methodological nationalism? >>> The difficulty becomes this focusing on multitudes of understanding >>> (multiple cultural, economic and political contexts ? simultaneously >>> unfolding). >>> Then holding this multitude while considering kinship and intimate >>> relations. >>> The intent of this book to open up new ways of thinking about migration in >>> which the search for marriage or ties to kin can sometimes re-place the >>> search for work. >>> The focus of the book exploring the way EVOKING powerful emotions regulate >>> and disrupt ?affective circuits?. >>> >>> Definition of Affective Circuits: >>> The social formations that emerge from the sending, withholding and >>> receiving of goods, ideas, bodies, and emotions. >>> These social formations being multitudes that occur simultaneously. >>> >>> Alfredo, emotions and infrastructure operating across multiple LATERAL >>> sites or contexts seems to be a complex question. >>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>> >>> From: Andy Blunden >>> Sent: June 9, 2017 7:50 PM >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY >>> >>> Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the institutions >>> of formal education (for example) by by" >>> should be "do research on the dynamics of the institutions >>> of formal education (for example) by" >>> >>> Sorry, >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> >>>> On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms which are >>>> necessarily pursued in relatively independent research >>>> communities, despite being part of the same science. What >>>> makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is >>>> the use of concepts which are shared across the whole >>>> science and are necessarily connected in the constitution >>>> of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic concepts >>>> such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are basic >>>> to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. >>>> Therefore the educational psychologist may *not* do *any >>>> *research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal >>>> education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact >>>> "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one >>>> research field can enter the research in the other, and >>>> from time to time problems in educational psychology will >>>> find their solution in the social theory of formal >>>> educational institutions, and vice versa. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>> >>>>> On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>>>> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the >>>>> discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating >>>>> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I >>>>> have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic >>>>> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning >>>>> emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and CHAT. >>>>> And so I was thinking that the question relates to that >>>>> of the connection between sociology and psychology, does >>>>> not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology >>>>> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? >>>>> >>>>> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a >>>>> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend drove >>>>> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a >>>>> number of procedures at the airport, got into a plain to >>>>> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then >>>>> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us to a >>>>> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive from >>>>> Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. >>>>> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect >>>>> generated. I could not help but to think on the relation >>>>> between infrastructure and emotion all the way... >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> on behalf of Larry >>>>> Purss >>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>> >>>>> Michael, to pick up this thread: >>>>> ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the >>>>> methods* in >>>>> and through which members concertedly produce and >>>>> assemble," and these >>>>> include making the very production and assembly available >>>>> to each other. >>>>> >>>>> In particular the phrase: >>>>> >>>>> ?in and through which? the methods are assembled [arranged]. >>>>> >>>>> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar >>>>> observation within a note # 1 >>>>> >>>>> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the >>>>> actual state of affairs of a social practice. Instead of >>>>> conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which >>>>> ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its >>>>> practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, >>>>> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of >>>>> sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A >>>>> science is nothing more than, and nothing less than, the >>>>> activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to >>>>> retain the important insight, which is consistent with >>>>> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a >>>>> science does not merely exist in its practices, it exists >>>>> as its practices. The perspective is vital to an >>>>> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed >>>>> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. >>>>> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, >>>>> 1992, p. 175). >>>>> >>>>> So the two phrases >>>>> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are indicating a >>>>> way of making visible a work or a method or a discipline >>>>> AS practices. >>>>> >>>>> For further elaboration here reproduced a full page of >>>>> the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note #1 is >>>>> generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it >>>>> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another >>>>> approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. >>>>> >>>>> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our >>>>> ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of >>>>> various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c >>>>> organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by >>>>> case for the particular sciences??are obscured by >>>>> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The >>>>> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and as a >>>>> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the >>>>> phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. That >>>>> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual work-sites of >>>>> any science. And there they also lose the instructed >>>>> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual >>>>> world-generating collaborations. They lose the phenomenon >>>>> by losing just-how their instructed actions are >>>>> administered to reveal for the scientists their work, as >>>>> well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s >>>>> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally >>>>> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any >>>>> lebenswelt practices. >>>>> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with >>>>> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely >>>>> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of >>>>> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived work of >>>>> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is >>>>> no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The >>>>> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental >>>>> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their promise >>>>> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench practitioners >>>>> of any science. The program of The Crisis was never taken >>>>> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a ??gap?? >>>>> in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of >>>>> its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, >>>>> despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed >>>>> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the >>>>> program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet >>>>> even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a >>>>> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o >>>>> f an actual science. It has only been used to >>>>> illustrate cases for ep >>>>> istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the >>>>> task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. >>>>> This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very >>>>> little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived >>>>> work of any actual science. On the contrary, the lectures >>>>> forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in any and >>>>> every particular science. These absent details can >>>>> involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the >>>>> local endogenous practices of social order production and >>>>> accountability, and their coherent substantive material, >>>>> which might include board notes, personal notebooks, >>>>> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? >>>>> >>>>> The theme here is the shift from a theory being >>>>> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to >>>>> re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to become >>>>> a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno >>>>> practices]. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>>> >>>>> From: Wolff-Michael Roth >>>>> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Martin, >>>>> >>>>> I do not view what I am saying--though it is differently >>>>> said---from what >>>>> you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: >>>>> "*the methods* in >>>>> and through which members concertedly produce and >>>>> assemble," and these >>>>> include making the very production and assembly available >>>>> to each other. In >>>>> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and Garfinkel >>>>> wrote considerably >>>>> on the invisible background assumption . . . >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> -------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Applied Cognitive Science >>>>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>>>> University of Victoria >>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>>>> >> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Wolff-Michael, >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the >>>>>> suggestion that EM >>>>>> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make >>>>>> visible order that has >>>>>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an >>>>>> encyclopedia article by Doug >>>>>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology originating in >>>>>> the work of Harold >>>>>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the methods >>>>>> in and through >>>>>> which members concertedly produce and assemble the >>>>>> features of everyday >>>>>> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or >>>>>> theoretically >>>>>> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this >>>>>> intelligible >>>>>> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, >>>>>> procedural behaviors >>>>>> or methods and practices. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < >>>>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin, >>>>>> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the >>>>>> study of the methods, >>>>>> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In >>>>>> this, it is very >>>>>> different from all other research, qualitative and >>>>>> quantitative. Garfinkel >>>>>> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, among >>>>>> others, >>>>>> interpretive studies of social life. He distinguishes EM >>>>>> from formal >>>>>> analytic studies, all those that have to specify methods >>>>>> because these >>>>>> methods are different from the methods people use in >>>>>> everyday life. EM does >>>>>> not dispute the results of other research; its interests >>>>>> are completely >>>>>> elsewhere. >>>>>> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what >>>>>> people do; it is not >>>>>> interested in the change but how people do make change >>>>>> and the required >>>>>> work visible to each other. >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------- >>>>>> Applied Cognitive Science >>>>>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>>>>> University of Victoria >>>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>>>>> >>>>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>>>>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other >>>>>> EM/CA studies also as >>>>>> instructability, speaks to change. A >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>> >>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>>>>> on behalf of Larry Purss >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin, >>>>>> This sentence, >>>>>> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? >>>>>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm >>>>>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of >>>>>> possibility for novel >>>>>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving theme] >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the word >>>>>> change where I >>>>>> meant development. So I am going to change my question: >>>>>> >>>>>> What do and could do researchers concerned with >>>>>> development (social, >>>>>> personal) with EM. >>>>>> >>>>>> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the >>>>>> topic of development. >>>>>> How does EM feature in it? >>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>> >>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>>>>> on behalf of Martin John Packer >>>>>> >>>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> >>>>>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Alfredo, >>>>>> >>>>>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with change, >>>>>> because it does >>>>>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the >>>>>> methods that people >>>>>> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various >>>>>> kinds of order. >>>>>> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating and a >>>>>> powerful approach >>>>>> to stick the realities of social life; but I always >>>>>> wondered what does EM >>>>>> do with questions of change. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> > From wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 05:19:42 2017 From: wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com (Wolff-Michael Roth) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 05:19:42 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <1496040836871.58796@iped.uio.no> <6cdd59e0-b1b8-737d-a68b-f90222b5c564@mira.net> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Andy, I don't follow you. I don't denounce but raise a question; and I point to the literature where the link between individual and collective emotion is done. And I do not see where there is a declaration, unless you mean the index to the literature. Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Declarations are cheap, Michael. Denunciations of dichotomy are a > dime-a-dozen. The point is: how is it done? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 11/06/2017 2:15 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: > >> Does Vygotsky not move beyond the dichotomy sociology | psychology when >> he acknowledges ("Concrete Human Psychology") that "any higher >> psychological function was a social relation" and "personality: the >> ensemble of societal relations"? >> >> On emotions you might find interesting the work of Randall Collins, >> "Interaction ritual chains", which acknowledges the constitutive relation >> between individual and collective emotions >> >> Michael >> >> >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> -------------------- >> Applied Cognitive Science >> MacLaurin Building A567 >> University of Victoria >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >> >> New book: */The Mathematics of Mathematics > om/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mathematics-and-sci >> ence-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>/* >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Larry Purss > > wrote: >> >> In advancing this thread exploring sociology/psychology and >> their connections, Andy >> explores how these connections can be thought about >> within a single science or theory. This opens up the >> question of multiple approaches to how we relate >> sociology and psychology within differing sciences >> using uniting frames. >> >> Greg introduces the book (Affective Circuits) which is >> attempting to move beyond the concept of the nation >> state and the sending/receiving polarity of >> ?methodological nationalism? >> The difficulty becomes this focusing on multitudes of >> understanding (multiple cultural, economic and >> political contexts ? simultaneously unfolding). >> Then holding this multitude while considering kinship >> and intimate relations. >> The intent of this book to open up new ways of >> thinking about migration in which the search for >> marriage or ties to kin can sometimes re-place the >> search for work. >> The focus of the book exploring the way EVOKING >> powerful emotions regulate and disrupt ?affective >> circuits?. >> >> Definition of Affective Circuits: >> The social formations that emerge from the sending, >> withholding and receiving of goods, ideas, bodies, and >> emotions. >> These social formations being multitudes that occur >> simultaneously. >> >> Alfredo, emotions and infrastructure operating across >> multiple LATERAL sites or contexts seems to be a >> complex question. >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From: Andy Blunden >> Sent: June 9, 2017 7:50 PM >> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY >> >> Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the >> institutions >> of formal education (for example) by by" >> should be "do research on the dynamics of the institutions >> of formal education (for example) by" >> >> Sorry, >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> > decision-making> >> >> On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> > Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms >> which are >> > necessarily pursued in relatively independent research >> > communities, despite being part of the same science. >> What >> > makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is >> > the use of concepts which are shared across the whole >> > science and are necessarily connected in the >> constitution >> > of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic >> concepts >> > such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are >> basic >> > to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. >> > Therefore the educational psychologist may *not* do *any >> > *research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal >> > education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact >> > "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one >> > research field can enter the research in the other, and >> > from time to time problems in educational psychology >> will >> > find their solution in the social theory of formal >> > educational institutions, and vice versa. >> > >> > Andy >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > Andy Blunden >> > http://home.mira.net/~andy >> >> > >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> > decision-making> >> > >> > On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the >> >> discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating >> >> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I >> >> have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic >> >> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning >> >> emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and >> CHAT. >> >> And so I was thinking that the question relates to that >> >> of the connection between sociology and psychology, >> does >> >> not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology >> >> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? >> >> >> >> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a >> >> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend >> drove >> >> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a >> >> number of procedures at the airport, got into a >> plain to >> >> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then >> >> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us >> to a >> >> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive >> from >> >> Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. >> >> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect >> >> generated. I could not help but to think on the >> relation >> >> between infrastructure and emotion all the way... >> >> >> >> Alfredo >> >> ________________________________________ >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >> > > on behalf of >> Larry >> >> Purss > > >> >> >> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 >> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> >> >> Michael, to pick up this thread: >> >> ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the >> >> methods* in >> >> and through which members concertedly produce and >> >> assemble," and these >> >> include making the very production and assembly >> available >> >> to each other. >> >> >> >> In particular the phrase: >> >> >> >> ?in and through which? the methods are assembled >> [arranged]. >> >> >> >> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar >> >> observation within a note # 1 >> >> >> >> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the >> >> actual state of affairs of a social practice. >> Instead of >> >> conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which >> >> ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its >> >> practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, >> >> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of >> >> sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A >> >> science is nothing more than, and nothing less >> than, the >> >> activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to >> >> retain the important insight, which is consistent with >> >> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a >> >> science does not merely exist in its practices, it >> exists >> >> as its practices. The perspective is vital to an >> >> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed >> >> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. >> >> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, >> >> 1992, p. 175). >> >> >> >> So the two phrases >> >> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are >> indicating a >> >> way of making visible a work or a method or a >> discipline >> >> AS practices. >> >> >> >> For further elaboration here reproduced a full >> page of >> >> the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note >> #1 is >> >> generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it >> >> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another >> >> approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. >> >> >> >> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our >> >> ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of >> >> various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c >> >> organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by >> >> case for the particular sciences??are obscured by >> >> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The >> >> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and >> as a >> >> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the >> >> phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. >> That >> >> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual >> work-sites of >> >> any science. And there they also lose the instructed >> >> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual >> >> world-generating collaborations. They lose the >> phenomenon >> >> by losing just-how their instructed actions are >> >> administered to reveal for the scientists their >> work, as >> >> well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s >> >> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally >> >> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any >> >> lebenswelt practices. >> >> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with >> >> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely >> >> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of >> >> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived >> work of >> >> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is >> >> no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The >> >> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental >> >> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their >> promise >> >> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench >> practitioners >> >> of any science. The program of The Crisis was never >> taken >> >> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a >> ??gap?? >> >> in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of >> >> its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, >> >> despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed >> >> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the >> >> program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet >> >> even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a >> >> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o >> >> f an actual science. It has only been used to >> >> illustrate cases for ep >> >> istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the >> >> task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. >> >> This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very >> >> little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived >> >> work of any actual science. On the contrary, the >> lectures >> >> forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in >> any and >> >> every particular science. These absent details can >> >> involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the >> >> local endogenous practices of social order >> production and >> >> accountability, and their coherent substantive >> material, >> >> which might include board notes, personal notebooks, >> >> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? >> >> >> >> The theme here is the shift from a theory being >> >> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to >> >> re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to >> become >> >> a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno >> >> practices]. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> >> >> From: Wolff-Michael Roth >> >> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM >> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >> >> >> Thanks Martin, >> >> >> >> I do not view what I am saying--though it is >> differently >> >> said---from what >> >> you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: >> >> "*the methods* in >> >> and through which members concertedly produce and >> >> assemble," and these >> >> include making the very production and assembly >> available >> >> to each other. In >> >> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and >> Garfinkel >> >> wrote considerably >> >> on the invisible background assumption . . . >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> >> >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> -------------------- >> >> >> >> Applied Cognitive Science >> >> MacLaurin Building A567 >> >> University of Victoria >> >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >> >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >> >> > > >> >> >> >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >> >> >> > ections-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics >> -of-mathematics/ >> > ections-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics >> -of-mathematics/>>* >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer >> >> > > >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi Wolff-Michael, >> >>> >> >>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the >> >>> suggestion that EM >> >>> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make >> >>> visible order that has >> >>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an >> >>> encyclopedia article by Doug >> >>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology >> originating in >> >>> the work of Harold >> >>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the >> methods >> >>> in and through >> >>> which members concertedly produce and assemble the >> >>> features of everyday >> >>> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or >> >>> theoretically >> >>> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this >> >>> intelligible >> >>> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, >> >>> procedural behaviors >> >>> or methods and practices. >> >>> >> >>> Martin >> >>> >> >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < >> >>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com >> > roth@gmail.com >> >> >> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Martin, >> >>> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the >> >>> study of the methods, >> >>> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In >> >>> this, it is very >> >>> different from all other research, qualitative and >> >>> quantitative. Garfinkel >> >>> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, >> among >> >>> others, >> >>> interpretive studies of social life. He >> distinguishes EM >> >>> from formal >> >>> analytic studies, all those that have to specify >> methods >> >>> because these >> >>> methods are different from the methods people use in >> >>> everyday life. EM does >> >>> not dispute the results of other research; its >> interests >> >>> are completely >> >>> elsewhere. >> >>> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what >> >>> people do; it is not >> >>> interested in the change but how people do make change >> >>> and the required >> >>> work visible to each other. >> >>> Michael >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >> >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>> >> >>> -------------------- >> >>> Applied Cognitive Science >> >>> MacLaurin Building A567 >> >>> University of Victoria >> >>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >> >>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >> >> >>> > > >> >>> >> >>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >> >>> >> > >> >>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >> >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >> >>> >> >>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> >>> >> >>> > >> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other >> >>> EM/CA studies also as >> >>> instructability, speaks to change. A >> >>> ________________________________________ >> >>> From: >> >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > >> >>> mailman.ucsd.edu > >> >>> > > >> >>> mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >>> on behalf of Larry Purss >> >>> > > >> >> >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 >> >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >>> >> >>> Martin, >> >>> This sentence, >> >>> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? >> >>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm >> >>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of >> >>> possibility for novel >> >>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving >> theme] >> >>> >> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >>> >> >>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >> >>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM >> >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >>> >> >>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the >> word >> >>> change where I >> >>> meant development. So I am going to change my >> question: >> >>> >> >>> What do and could do researchers concerned with >> >>> development (social, >> >>> personal) with EM. >> >>> >> >>> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the >> >>> topic of development. >> >>> How does EM feature in it? >> >>> Alfredo >> >>> ________________________________________ >> >>> From: >> >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > >> >>> mailman.ucsd.edu > >> >>> > > >> >>> mailman.ucsd.edu >> >> >>> on behalf of Martin John Packer >> >>> > > >>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >> >> >> >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 >> >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >> >>> >> >>> Hi Alfredo, >> >>> >> >>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with >> change, >> >>> because it does >> >>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the >> >>> methods that people >> >>> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various >> >>> kinds of order. >> >>> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. >> >>> >> >>> Martin >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >> >>> >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating >> and a >> >>> powerful approach >> >>> to stick the realities of social life; but I always >> >>> wondered what does EM >> >>> do with questions of change. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Jun 11 05:36:12 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 22:36:12 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <504f2c0a-ff95-d733-d6f9-e51baac5685d@mira.net> True, Michael, in pointing to the aphorisms of Vygotsky and Marx on psychology/sociology, you are going much further than mere declarations. As ever, I went too far in my effort to be succinct. It seems to me still, however, that these two wonderful and very concrete aphorisms still leave us the job of understanding *how* this unity is to be achieved. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 11/06/2017 10:19 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: > Hi Andy, I don't follow you. I don't denounce but raise a > question; and I point to the literature where the link > between individual and collective emotion is done. And I > do not see where there is a declaration, unless you mean > the index to the literature. Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > > New book: */The Mathematics of Mathematics > /* > > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > Declarations are cheap, Michael. Denunciations of > dichotomy are a dime-a-dozen. The point is: how is it > done? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > On 11/06/2017 2:15 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: > > Does Vygotsky not move beyond the dichotomy > sociology | psychology when he acknowledges > ("Concrete Human Psychology") that "any higher > psychological function was a social relation" and > "personality: the ensemble of societal relations"? > > On emotions you might find interesting the work of > Randall Collins, "Interaction ritual chains", > which acknowledges the constitutive relation > between individual and collective emotions > > Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > > > > New book: */The Mathematics of Mathematics > >/* > > > > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Larry Purss > > >> wrote: > > In advancing this thread exploring > sociology/psychology and their connections, Andy > explores how these connections can be thought > about > within a single science or theory. This opens > up the > question of multiple approaches to how we relate > sociology and psychology within differing sciences > using uniting frames. > > Greg introduces the book (Affective Circuits) > which is > attempting to move beyond the concept of the > nation > state and the sending/receiving polarity of > ?methodological nationalism? > The difficulty becomes this focusing on > multitudes of > understanding (multiple cultural, economic and > political contexts ? simultaneously unfolding). > Then holding this multitude while considering > kinship > and intimate relations. > The intent of this book to open up new ways of > thinking about migration in which the search for > marriage or ties to kin can sometimes re-place the > search for work. > The focus of the book exploring the way EVOKING > powerful emotions regulate and disrupt ?affective > circuits?. > > Definition of Affective Circuits: > The social formations that emerge from the > sending, > withholding and receiving of goods, ideas, > bodies, and > emotions. > These social formations being multitudes that > occur > simultaneously. > > Alfredo, emotions and infrastructure operating > across > multiple LATERAL sites or contexts seems to be a > complex question. > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Andy Blunden > Sent: June 9, 2017 7:50 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started > SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY > > Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the > institutions > of formal education (for example) by by" > should be "do research on the dynamics of the > institutions > of formal education (for example) by" > > Sorry, > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > > > > > > On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms > which are > > necessarily pursued in relatively > independent research > > communities, despite being part of the same > science. > What > > makes all these specialisms parts of the one > science is > > the use of concepts which are shared across > the whole > > science and are necessarily connected in the > constitution > > of the science. CHAT is such a science; its > basic > concepts > > such as artefact-mediated actions and > activities are > basic > > to both psychology and social theory as we > approach it. > > Therefore the educational psychologist may > *not* do *any > > *research on the dynamics of the > institutions of formal > > education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact > > "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries > from one > > research field can enter the research in the > other, and > > from time to time problems in educational > psychology > will > > find their solution in the social theory of > formal > > educational institutions, and vice versa. > > > > Andy > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > > > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > > > > > > > > On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > >> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the > >> discussion, as we (my family) are these > days relocating > >> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the > moment). But I > >> have kept wondering (and wandering) around > the topic > >> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article > concerning > >> emotion and infrastructure, and then about > ANT and > CHAT. > >> And so I was thinking that the question > relates to that > >> of the connection between sociology and > psychology, > does > >> not it? For is there the possibility of a > psychology > >> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? > >> > >> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 > adults and a > >> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a > friend > drove > >> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, > then, after a > >> number of procedures at the airport, got into a > plain to > >> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - > Amsterdam; then > >> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would > drive us > to a > >> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a > (family) drive > from > >> Alicante to a small town in the province of > Valencia. > >> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot > of affect > >> generated. I could not help but to think on the > relation > >> between infrastructure and emotion all the > way... > >> > >> Alfredo > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> > >> on > behalf of > Larry > >> Purss > >> > > >> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion > started > >> > >> Michael, to pick up this thread: > >> ? The important part of the quotation is > this: "*the > >> methods* in > >> and through which members concertedly > produce and > >> assemble," and these > >> include making the very production and assembly > available > >> to each other. > >> > >> In particular the phrase: > >> > >> ?in and through which? the methods are > assembled > [arranged]. > >> > >> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes > a similar > >> observation within a note # 1 > >> > >> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to > retain the > >> actual state of affairs of a social practice. > Instead of > >> conceiving of a metaphysical object, > ??science,?? which > >> ??has?? certain practices, a science > consists of its > >> practices. It does not exist apart from > them; in fact, > >> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt > origins of > >> sciences takes its departure from this > recognition. A > >> science is nothing more than, and nothing less > than, the > >> activities of its practitioners. The phrase > promises to > >> retain the important insight, which is > consistent with > >> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, > that a > >> science does not merely exist in its > practices, it > exists > >> as its practices. The perspective is vital > to an > >> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase > is employed > >> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. > Gar?nkel, 2002, p. > >> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel > and Wieder, > >> 1992, p. 175). > >> > >> So the two phrases > >> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are > indicating a > >> way of making visible a work or a method or a > discipline > >> AS practices. > >> > >> For further elaboration here reproduced a full > page of > >> the article written by Kenneth Liberman > where note > #1 is > >> generated: This page may be taking us off > topic or it > >> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in > another > >> approach exploring the origins of ethno > ?methods?. > >> > >> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our > >> ethnomethodological investigations, the > lived work of > >> various sciences??in their coherent, > work-site speci?c > >> organizational > Things-in-distinctive-details, case by > >> case for the particular sciences??are > obscured by > >> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in > both The > >> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. > Regrettably, and > as a > >> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the > >> phenomenon they were written carefully to > describe. > That > >> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual > work-sites of > >> any science. And there they also lose the > instructed > >> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual > >> world-generating collaborations. They lose the > phenomenon > >> by losing just-how their instructed actions are > >> administered to reveal for the scientists their > work, as > >> well as the objects they are studying. In > Husserl?s > >> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only > formally > >> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually > describe any > >> lebenswelt practices. > >> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with > >> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. > They merely > >> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real > achievement of > >> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual > lived > work of > >> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. > And that is > >> no small achievement. The Gottingen > Lectures and The > >> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s > monumental > >> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that > their > promise > >> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench > practitioners > >> of any science. The program of The Crisis > was never > taken > >> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as > ?lling a > ??gap?? > >> in the coherence of a particular science, > in and as of > >> its discovered topics and practices.1 > Nevertheless, > >> despite the fact that scientists rarely > welcomed > >> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological > philosophy the > >> program remains venerated as Husserl?s > achievement. Yet > >> even there Husserl?s program has not been > taken up in a > >> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o > >> f an actual science. It has only been used to > >> illustrate cases for ep > >> istemological arguments about the sciences. > Hence, the > >> task of taking up Husserl?s program > seriously remains. > >> This is not to say that no ground has been > gained. Very > >> little in The Gottingen Lectures > redescribes the lived > >> work of any actual science. On the > contrary, the > lectures > >> forcefully point to the absence of > haecceities in > any and > >> every particular science. These absent > details can > >> involve the shop talk, local gestural > organization, the > >> local endogenous practices of social order > production and > >> accountability, and their coherent substantive > material, > >> which might include board notes, personal > notebooks, > >> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? > >> > >> The theme here is the shift from a theory > being > >> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary > methods to > >> re-mark what was previously formally > exhibited to > become > >> a method of describing lebenswelt > practices. [ethno > >> practices]. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >> > >> From: Wolff-Michael Roth > >> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion > started > >> > >> Thanks Martin, > >> > >> I do not view what I am saying--though it is > differently > >> said---from what > >> you quote. The important part of the > quotation is this: > >> "*the methods* in > >> and through which members concertedly > produce and > >> assemble," and these > >> include making the very production and assembly > available > >> to each other. In > >> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and > Garfinkel > >> wrote considerably > >> on the invisible background assumption . . . > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> > >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > >> > >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Applied Cognitive Science > >> MacLaurin Building A567 > >> University of Victoria > >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > > >> > >> > >> > >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > >> > > > > >>* > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John > Packer > >> > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Wolff-Michael, > >>> > >>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, > but not the > >>> suggestion that EM > >>> starts from the assumption that people > (simply) make > >>> visible order that has > >>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an > >>> encyclopedia article by Doug > >>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: > >>> > >>> > >>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology > originating in > >>> the work of Harold > >>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to > study the > methods > >>> in and through > >>> which members concertedly produce and > assemble the > >>> features of everyday > >>> life in any actual, concrete, and not > hypothetical or > >>> theoretically > >>> depicted setting?. Members of society > achieve this > >>> intelligible > >>> organization through actual, coordinated, > concerted, > >>> procedural behaviors > >>> or methods and practices. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael > Roth < > >>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com > > > > > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Martin, > >>> I would have thought that > ethno*methodology* is the > >>> study of the methods, > >>> the work, people use to make social orders > visible. In > >>> this, it is very > >>> different from all other research, > qualitative and > >>> quantitative. Garfinkel > >>> describes it as *incommensurably different > *from, > among > >>> others, > >>> interpretive studies of social life. He > distinguishes EM > >>> from formal > >>> analytic studies, all those that have to > specify > methods > >>> because these > >>> methods are different from the methods > people use in > >>> everyday life. EM does > >>> not dispute the results of other research; its > interests > >>> are completely > >>> elsewhere. > >>> Practically, EM is interested in change if > it is what > >>> people do; it is not > >>> interested in the change but how people do > make change > >>> and the required > >>> work visible to each other. > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> > >>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > >>> > >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> -------------------- > >>> Applied Cognitive Science > >>> MacLaurin Building A567 > >>> University of Victoria > >>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > >>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > >>> > > > > > > >>> > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- > >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* > >>> > >>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo > Jornet Gil > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Larry, I also was thinking that > visibility, in other > >>> EM/CA studies also as > >>> instructability, speaks to change. A > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > >>> mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>> > > > > > >>> mailman.ucsd.edu > >> > >>> on behalf of Larry Purss > >>> > > > > > > >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion > started > >>> > >>> Martin, > >>> This sentence, > >>> ?Creating and sustaining order always > requires change? > >>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm > >>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative > enacting of > >>> possibility for novel > >>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the > weaving > theme] > >>> > >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >>> > >>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion > started > >>> > >>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I > used the > word > >>> change where I > >>> meant development. So I am going to change my > question: > >>> > >>> What do and could do researchers concerned > with > >>> development (social, > >>> personal) with EM. > >>> > >>> You recently shared with us a beautiful > book on the > >>> topic of development. > >>> How does EM feature in it? > >>> Alfredo > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > >>> mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>> > > > > > >>> mailman.ucsd.edu > >> > >>> on behalf of Martin John Packer > >>> > > >>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > > >>> > >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion > started > >>> > >>> Hi Alfredo, > >>> > >>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very > well with > change, > >>> because it does > >>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the > study of the > >>> methods that people > >>> (actants) employ to create and sustain > order, various > >>> kinds of order. > >>> Creating and sustaining order always > requires change. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>> > > > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM > fascinating > and a > >>> powerful approach > >>> to stick the realities of social life; but > I always > >>> wondered what does EM > >>> do with questions of change. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > From wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 05:45:37 2017 From: wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com (Wolff-Michael Roth) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 05:45:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: <504f2c0a-ff95-d733-d6f9-e51baac5685d@mira.net> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> <504f2c0a-ff95-d733-d6f9-e51baac5685d@mira.net> Message-ID: Hi Andy, I have worked on showing this. It takes a bit of space, more than we have here. But, as said, I think I have shown the connection between social relation and higher function (a form of mathematical reasoning) in a couple of chapters, one appearing in my *Concrete Human Psychology*, the other in a book co-authored with Alfredo, *Understanding Educational Psychology*; and there may be a chapter in The Mathematics of Mathematics. Fundamentally, I show in these chapters how a particular form of mathematical reasoning first exists *as *social relations and some time later, a few weeks, you can see an individual do what the relation did before. Furthermore, one can see in some of these chapters something else Vygotsky describes in his fragmentary text but possibly never demonstrated: The unfolding of the psychological function into a relation. The point I am making in each case that there is not something constructed in the pair/group that is then internalized. Instead, the point is that what later is seen to be typical of the individual earlier has existed *as* the relation. Cheers, Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 5:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > True, Michael, in pointing to the aphorisms of Vygotsky and Marx on > psychology/sociology, you are going much further than mere declarations. As > ever, I went too far in my effort to be succinct. It seems to me still, > however, that these two wonderful and very concrete aphorisms still leave > us the job of understanding *how* this unity is to be achieved. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 11/06/2017 10:19 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: > > Hi Andy, I don't follow you. I don't denounce but raise a question; and I > point to the literature where the link between individual and collective > emotion is done. And I do not see where there is a declaration, unless you > mean the index to the literature. Michael > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------- > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics > * > > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Declarations are cheap, Michael. Denunciations of dichotomy are a >> dime-a-dozen. The point is: how is it done? >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> On 11/06/2017 2:15 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: >> >>> Does Vygotsky not move beyond the dichotomy sociology | psychology when >>> he acknowledges ("Concrete Human Psychology") that "any higher >>> psychological function was a social relation" and "personality: the >>> ensemble of societal relations"? >>> >>> On emotions you might find interesting the work of Randall Collins, >>> "Interaction ritual chains", which acknowledges the constitutive relation >>> between individual and collective emotions >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> -------------------- >>> Applied Cognitive Science >>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>> University of Victoria >>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth < >>> http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/> >>> >>> New book: */The Mathematics of Mathematics < >>> >>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-dir >>> ections-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>/* >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Larry Purss < >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com > wrote: >>> >>> In advancing this thread exploring sociology/psychology and >>> their connections, Andy >>> explores how these connections can be thought about >>> within a single science or theory. This opens up the >>> question of multiple approaches to how we relate >>> sociology and psychology within differing sciences >>> using uniting frames. >>> >>> Greg introduces the book (Affective Circuits) which is >>> attempting to move beyond the concept of the nation >>> state and the sending/receiving polarity of >>> ?methodological nationalism? >>> The difficulty becomes this focusing on multitudes of >>> understanding (multiple cultural, economic and >>> political contexts ? simultaneously unfolding). >>> Then holding this multitude while considering kinship >>> and intimate relations. >>> The intent of this book to open up new ways of >>> thinking about migration in which the search for >>> marriage or ties to kin can sometimes re-place the >>> search for work. >>> The focus of the book exploring the way EVOKING >>> powerful emotions regulate and disrupt ?affective >>> circuits?. >>> >>> Definition of Affective Circuits: >>> The social formations that emerge from the sending, >>> withholding and receiving of goods, ideas, bodies, and >>> emotions. >>> These social formations being multitudes that occur >>> simultaneously. >>> >>> Alfredo, emotions and infrastructure operating across >>> multiple LATERAL sites or contexts seems to be a >>> complex question. >>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>> >>> From: Andy Blunden >>> Sent: June 9, 2017 7:50 PM >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY >>> >>> Er. "not do any research on the dynamics of the >>> institutions >>> of formal education (for example) by by" >>> should be "do research on the dynamics of the institutions >>> of formal education (for example) by" >>> >>> Sorry, >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy < >>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy> >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decisi >>> on-making >>> >>> >> ion-making> >>> >>> On 10/06/2017 12:03 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> > Alfredo, in every science there are specialisms >>> which are >>> > necessarily pursued in relatively independent research >>> > communities, despite being part of the same science. >>> What >>> > makes all these specialisms parts of the one science is >>> > the use of concepts which are shared across the whole >>> > science and are necessarily connected in the >>> constitution >>> > of the science. CHAT is such a science; its basic >>> concepts >>> > such as artefact-mediated actions and activities are >>> basic >>> > to both psychology and social theory as we approach it. >>> > Therefore the educational psychologist may *not* do *any >>> > *research on the dynamics of the institutions of formal >>> > education (for example) by *by *dint of the fact >>> > "activity" is a shared concept, discoveries from one >>> > research field can enter the research in the other, and >>> > from time to time problems in educational psychology >>> will >>> > find their solution in the social theory of formal >>> > educational institutions, and vice versa. >>> > >>> > Andy >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > Andy Blunden >>> > http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> >>> > >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decisi >>> on-making >>> >>> >> ion-making> >>> > >>> > On 10/06/2017 5:11 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >>> >> I had to make a pause in my contributing to the >>> >> discussion, as we (my family) are these days relocating >>> >> from Victoria to Europe (in Spain at the moment). But I >>> >> have kept wondering (and wandering) around the topic >>> >> that came up in Yasuko Kawatoko's article concerning >>> >> emotion and infrastructure, and then about ANT and >>> CHAT. >>> >> And so I was thinking that the question relates to that >>> >> of the connection between sociology and psychology, >>> does >>> >> not it? For is there the possibility of a psychology >>> >> without a sociology in either ANT or CHAT? >>> >> >>> >> To travel from Victoria to Alicante, we (2 adults and a >>> >> 7-year and a 2-year) had to take a drive (a friend >>> drove >>> >> us) from (no longer) home to the airport, then, after a >>> >> number of procedures at the airport, got into a >>> plain to >>> >> fly Victoria - Calgary; then Calgary - Amsterdam; then >>> >> Amsterdam - Madrid, then a taxi that would drive us >>> to a >>> >> high-speed train to Alicante. Then a (family) drive >>> from >>> >> Alicante to a small town in the province of Valencia. >>> >> That's an infrastructure. And that's a lot of affect >>> >> generated. I could not help but to think on the >>> relation >>> >> between infrastructure and emotion all the way... >>> >> >>> >> Alfredo >>> >> ________________________________________ >>> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >>> >> >> > on behalf of >>> Larry >>> >> Purss >> > >>> >>> >> Sent: 02 June 2017 07:05 >>> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >> >>> >> Michael, to pick up this thread: >>> >> ? The important part of the quotation is this: "*the >>> >> methods* in >>> >> and through which members concertedly produce and >>> >> assemble," and these >>> >> include making the very production and assembly >>> available >>> >> to each other. >>> >> >>> >> In particular the phrase: >>> >> >>> >> ?in and through which? the methods are assembled >>> [arranged]. >>> >> >>> >> Here is the way that Kenneth Liberman makes a similar >>> >> observation within a note # 1 >>> >> >>> >> 1 The phrase ??in and as of?? intends to retain the >>> >> actual state of affairs of a social practice. >>> Instead of >>> >> conceiving of a metaphysical object, ??science,?? which >>> >> ??has?? certain practices, a science consists of its >>> >> practices. It does not exist apart from them; in fact, >>> >> the task of any inquiry into the lebenswelt origins of >>> >> sciences takes its departure from this recognition. A >>> >> science is nothing more than, and nothing less >>> than, the >>> >> activities of its practitioners. The phrase promises to >>> >> retain the important insight, which is consistent with >>> >> Husserl?s own phenomenological discoveries, that a >>> >> science does not merely exist in its practices, it >>> exists >>> >> as its practices. The perspective is vital to an >>> >> anti-essentialist inquiry, and the phrase is employed >>> >> frequently in ethnomethodology (cf. Gar?nkel, 2002, p. >>> >> 92, 99, 138, 207, 211, 246, 247; Gar?nkel and Wieder, >>> >> 1992, p. 175). >>> >> >>> >> So the two phrases >>> >> ?in and through which? & ?in and as of? are >>> indicating a >>> >> way of making visible a work or a method or a >>> discipline >>> >> AS practices. >>> >> >>> >> For further elaboration here reproduced a full >>> page of >>> >> the article written by Kenneth Liberman where note >>> #1 is >>> >> generated: This page may be taking us off topic or it >>> >> may be relevant?? This page is bringing in another >>> >> approach exploring the origins of ethno ?methods?. >>> >> >>> >> ? While Husserl provided the direction for our >>> >> ethnomethodological investigations, the lived work of >>> >> various sciences??in their coherent, work-site speci?c >>> >> organizational Things-in-distinctive-details, case by >>> >> case for the particular sciences??are obscured by >>> >> Husserl?s use of formal generalities in both The >>> >> Gottingen Lectures and The Crisis. Regrettably, and >>> as a >>> >> certainty, both of Husserl?s treatises lose the >>> >> phenomenon they were written carefully to describe. >>> That >>> >> is, they lose the phenomenon of the actual >>> work-sites of >>> >> any science. And there they also lose the instructed >>> >> actions of the scientists, i.e. their actual >>> >> world-generating collaborations. They lose the >>> phenomenon >>> >> by losing just-how their instructed actions are >>> >> administered to reveal for the scientists their >>> work, as >>> >> well as the objects they are studying. In Husserl?s >>> >> program, the lebenswelt origins, being only formally >>> >> exhibited by the lectures, do not actually describe any >>> >> lebenswelt practices. >>> >> They do not exhibit lebenswelt practices with >>> >> lived-in-the-course instructed actions. They merely >>> >> allude to lebenswelt practices. The real achievement of >>> >> Husserl?s program, then, is that the actual lived >>> work of >>> >> sciences are alluded to as lived practices. And that is >>> >> no small achievement. The Gottingen Lectures and The >>> >> Crisis assert the promises of Husserl?s monumental >>> >> program. Their incongruous anomaly is that their >>> promise >>> >> was neither noticed nor recognized by bench >>> practitioners >>> >> of any science. The program of The Crisis was never >>> taken >>> >> up by scientists, nor was it welcomed as ?lling a >>> ??gap?? >>> >> in the coherence of a particular science, in and as of >>> >> its discovered topics and practices.1 Nevertheless, >>> >> despite the fact that scientists rarely welcomed >>> >> Husserl?s inquiries, in epistemological philosophy the >>> >> program remains venerated as Husserl?s achievement. Yet >>> >> even there Husserl?s program has not been taken up in a >>> >> radical way, as the familiar haecceities2 o >>> >> f an actual science. It has only been used to >>> >> illustrate cases for ep >>> >> istemological arguments about the sciences. Hence, the >>> >> task of taking up Husserl?s program seriously remains. >>> >> This is not to say that no ground has been gained. Very >>> >> little in The Gottingen Lectures redescribes the lived >>> >> work of any actual science. On the contrary, the >>> lectures >>> >> forcefully point to the absence of haecceities in >>> any and >>> >> every particular science. These absent details can >>> >> involve the shop talk, local gestural organization, the >>> >> local endogenous practices of social order >>> production and >>> >> accountability, and their coherent substantive >>> material, >>> >> which might include board notes, personal notebooks, >>> >> diaries, diagrams, scribblings, books, ....? >>> >> >>> >> The theme here is the shift from a theory being >>> >> ?formally exhibited? within disciplinary methods to >>> >> re-mark what was previously formally exhibited to >>> become >>> >> a method of describing lebenswelt practices. [ethno >>> >> practices]. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>> >> >>> >> From: Wolff-Michael Roth >>> >> Sent: June 1, 2017 5:48 PM >>> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >> >>> >> Thanks Martin, >>> >> >>> >> I do not view what I am saying--though it is >>> differently >>> >> said---from what >>> >> you quote. The important part of the quotation is this: >>> >> "*the methods* in >>> >> and through which members concertedly produce and >>> >> assemble," and these >>> >> include making the very production and assembly >>> available >>> >> to each other. In >>> >> all of this, some things are unquestioned, and >>> Garfinkel >>> >> wrote considerably >>> >> on the invisible background assumption . . . >>> >> >>> >> Michael >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>> >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> -------------------- >>> >> >>> >> Applied Cognitive Science >>> >> MacLaurin Building A567 >>> >> University of Victoria >>> >> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>> >> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth < >>> http://web.uvic.ca/%7Emroth> >>> >> >> > >>> >> >>> >> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>> >> >>> >> ections-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics >>> -of-mathematics/ >>> >> ections-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics >>> -of-mathematics/>>* >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Martin John Packer >>> >> >> > >>> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Hi Wolff-Michael, >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree with most of what you?ve written, but not the >>> >>> suggestion that EM >>> >>> starts from the assumption that people (simply) make >>> >>> visible order that has >>> >>> its origins somewhere else. I?ll quote from an >>> >>> encyclopedia article by Doug >>> >>> Maynard and Teddy Kardash: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Ethnomethodology is an area in sociology >>> originating in >>> >>> the work of Harold >>> >>> Garfinkel. It represents an effort to study the >>> methods >>> >>> in and through >>> >>> which members concertedly produce and assemble the >>> >>> features of everyday >>> >>> life in any actual, concrete, and not hypothetical or >>> >>> theoretically >>> >>> depicted setting?. Members of society achieve this >>> >>> intelligible >>> >>> organization through actual, coordinated, concerted, >>> >>> procedural behaviors >>> >>> or methods and practices. >>> >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth < >>> >>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com >>> >> roth@gmail.com >>> >>> >> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Martin, >>> >>> I would have thought that ethno*methodology* is the >>> >>> study of the methods, >>> >>> the work, people use to make social orders visible. In >>> >>> this, it is very >>> >>> different from all other research, qualitative and >>> >>> quantitative. Garfinkel >>> >>> describes it as *incommensurably different *from, >>> among >>> >>> others, >>> >>> interpretive studies of social life. He >>> distinguishes EM >>> >>> from formal >>> >>> analytic studies, all those that have to specify >>> methods >>> >>> because these >>> >>> methods are different from the methods people use in >>> >>> everyday life. EM does >>> >>> not dispute the results of other research; its >>> interests >>> >>> are completely >>> >>> elsewhere. >>> >>> Practically, EM is interested in change if it is what >>> >>> people do; it is not >>> >>> interested in the change but how people do make change >>> >>> and the required >>> >>> work visible to each other. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------- >>> >>> Applied Cognitive Science >>> >>> MacLaurin Building A567 >>> >>> University of Victoria >>> >>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 >>> >>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the- >>> >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>* >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Larry, I also was thinking that visibility, in other >>> >>> EM/CA studies also as >>> >>> instructability, speaks to change. A >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> >>> From: >>> >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >> >>> >>> mailman.ucsd.edu < >>> http://mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> mailman.ucsd.edu < >>> http://mailman.ucsd.edu>>> >>> >>> on behalf of Larry Purss >>> >>> >> >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 01:44 >>> >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >>> >>> >>> Martin, >>> >>> This sentence, >>> >>> ?Creating and sustaining order always requires change? >>> >>> And therefore makes visible change as the norm >>> >>> Seems to be pregnant with an evocative enacting of >>> >>> possibility for novel >>> >>> kinds of social fabric[continuing with the weaving >>> theme] >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> >>> Sent: June 1, 2017 4:18 PM >>> >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, I agree with what you say. I guess I used the >>> word >>> >>> change where I >>> >>> meant development. So I am going to change my >>> question: >>> >>> >>> >>> What do and could do researchers concerned with >>> >>> development (social, >>> >>> personal) with EM. >>> >>> >>> >>> You recently shared with us a beautiful book on the >>> >>> topic of development. >>> >>> How does EM feature in it? >>> >>> Alfredo >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> >>> From: >>> >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> >> >>> >>> mailman.ucsd.edu < >>> http://mailman.ucsd.edu>> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> mailman.ucsd.edu < >>> http://mailman.ucsd.edu>>> >>> >>> on behalf of Martin John Packer >>> >>> >> >> >>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>> >> >>> >>> Sent: 02 June 2017 00:40 >>> >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Alfredo, >>> >>> >>> >>> I?ve always thought that EM deals very well with >>> change, >>> >>> because it does >>> >>> not treat stasis as the norm. EM is the study of the >>> >>> methods that people >>> >>> (actants) employ to create and sustain order, various >>> >>> kinds of order. >>> >>> Creating and sustaining order always requires change. >>> >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I personally find ethnomethodology EM fascinating >>> and a >>> >>> powerful approach >>> >>> to stick the realities of social life; but I always >>> >>> wondered what does EM >>> >>> do with questions of change. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 17:16:48 2017 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 18:16:48 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> <504f2c0a-ff95-d733-d6f9-e51baac5685d@mira.net> Message-ID: <6866DD4B-125B-46A0-B899-BB25C26C91F5@gmail.com> Wolff-Michael, It seems like you are making an important distinction that I wanted to hear more about. What did you mean when you wrote: "there is not something constructed in the pair/group that is then internalized. Instead, the point is that what later is seen to be typical of the individual earlier has existed *as* the relation." I wonder if you could explain that a bit? Perhaps give us a concrete example of each so that we might be able to understand this difference? And maybe what is lost if you take the first position? Many thanks, Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 11, 2017, at 6:45 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote: > > there is not something constructed in the > pair/group that is then internalized. Instead, the point is that what later > is seen to be typical of the individual earlier has existed *as* the > relation. From wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 20:42:41 2017 From: wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com (Wolff-Michael Roth) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 20:42:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: xmca new discussion started SOCIOLOGY | PSYCHOLOGY In-Reply-To: <6866DD4B-125B-46A0-B899-BB25C26C91F5@gmail.com> References: <32B50778-C614-4E0F-BA12-5ED75E86B32E@r-aquaparks.com> <1496126664245.85005@iped.uio.no> <0CF5EF91-D509-4A50-A061-673E6C5A7B94@r-aquaparks.com> <1496355883437.55868@iped.uio.no> <1496358967173.22684@iped.uio.no> <5930a6d3.0948620a.6b4a6.272a@mx.google.com> <1496362334476.86526@iped.uio.no> <2B696E1E-9C62-4F7A-8E2B-EE1B32F6A609@uniandes.edu.co> <5930f22e.5317620a.9999d.52eb@mx.google.com> <1497035513678.88015@iped.uio.no> <593c1840.cb0b620a.2278b.0e1f@mx.google.com> <504f2c0a-ff95-d733-d6f9-e51baac5685d@mira.net> <6866DD4B-125B-46A0-B899-BB25C26C91F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Greg, this is what I think I wrote in the message to Andy. It takes a little more than a few lines. But I am appending an article, in which I provide a concrete case study where I make the point. The article is not very long and I think the case is described very concisely. Cheers, Michael Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics * On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 5:16 PM, wrote: > Wolff-Michael, > It seems like you are making an important distinction that I wanted to > hear more about. What did you mean when you wrote: > > "there is not something constructed in the > pair/group that is then internalized. Instead, the point is that what later > is seen to be typical of the individual earlier has existed *as* the > relation." > > I wonder if you could explain that a bit? Perhaps give us a concrete > example of each so that we might be able to understand this difference? And > maybe what is lost if you take the first position? > > Many thanks, > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 11, 2017, at 6:45 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > there is not something constructed in the > > pair/group that is then internalized. Instead, the point is that what > later > > is seen to be typical of the individual earlier has existed *as* the > > relation. > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: _Roth_2016.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 277358 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20170611/587232b6/attachment-0001.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 22:13:00 2017 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 22:13:00 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Randall Collins | American Sociological Association Message-ID: <593e22d9.4c0c620a.685c1.6b72@mx.google.com> I thought this introduction to Randall Collins may be relevant to interaction rituals. Randall Collins Randall Collins: A Smart and Influential Theorist Jonathan Turner, University of California-Riverside and University of California Related Links Randall Collins Book Award Statement Professor Randall Collins has had a remarkable career. AB from Harvard College, MA from Stanford (in psychology), and MA and PhD from Berkeley (in sociology). His first academic job at the University of Wisconsin, first promoted at the University of California-San Diego, then professor at the University of Virgi? http://www.asanet.org/about-asa/asa-story/asa-history/past-asa-officers/past-asa-presidents/randall-collins Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Mon Jun 12 07:36:22 2017 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 14:36:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] PhD opportunity on Learning Analytics Message-ID: <1497278182485.95439@iped.uio.no> A PhD opportunity in the field of Learning Analytics at the University of Oslo, may be interesting to the list. See announcement here: https://www.jobbnorge.no/ledige-stillinger/stilling/137354/phd-candidate? Alfredo From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Wed Jun 14 17:57:29 2017 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 20:57:29 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black White Aca.pdf Message-ID: Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black White Aca.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 901124 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20170614/4cbf85fe/attachment-0001.pdf From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jun 15 04:40:32 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 21:40:32 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black White Aca.pdf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Paul. Often, when I read your work, I am set off by this or that. For example: a) the vastness, almost to the point of vacuity, of the "and" with which you propose to link climate change and the achievement gap, (pp. 1-9) b) the idea that social class is a "language game", (3, 5) c) the idea that the embourgeoisement of black mustic only began in the seventies, (5) d) the idea that what black kids need are more remedial programmes in white English, and (6) e) the lack of any reference to the huge black industrial proletariat whose rise and fall was both the precondition and the postscript of the "American Century" (1-9), f) the number of times you cite yourself in the references! (9). But then I find that almost each point that sets me off has something that sets me back again, in ways that are often just as weird or even weirder. a) I think that in SOME ways the discourse of prosperity IS linked to climate change, but concretely, politically, in the very person of the "poor man's idea of a rich man" president we are now enduring and in his (fortunately tokenistic) perfidy on the Paris Agreement. I also think that the transition of China, from a country that was following the model of "get dirty and then wash your hands" to a country which now seeks--with considerable success--to be a world leader in the struggle against climate change is a model worth considering, not least for the so-called "black -white academic gap". (I don't see how subsistence agriculture enters into it though.) b) Social class is not reducible to a language game, but if I have to choose between John McWhorter's view and that of Paul Mocombe, the latter has Ruqaiya Hasan--and science--on his side. c) Embourgeoisement of black culture was already old in the sixties. But something new DID happen in the seventies--and what happened seems to me linked with point e). d) Remedial programmes based on dialect are not only fruitless--they are beside the point, because the "language game" in b) is not chiefly about vowel sounds or copular "to be". But programmes based on register--on functional literate varieties of whatever dialect you happen to speak. Now you're talking... e) I remember working on the assembly line at General Motors during the seventies to the tune of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5LXTNvJ38w It's not a tune you hear today except on youtube. Something happened to this music and to the people who sang it along with me, but it was the same thing that happened to the industrial proletariat as a whole.... f) Alongside all the hecatombs of Macombes in the reference list, there is an F.E. Frazier! As Halliday likes to say, you shall know names, like nouns, by the company they keep.... In China, the remedial reading programme is the Song Dynasty "Three Character Classic", a little over a thousand years old now. It begins like this: ???? ???? ???? ???? Humankind Good at root Close in kin Far in forms That is, "Humans in their origins are intrinsically, essentially kind to each other. This is because they are close in their intrinsic, essential qualities, and they only differ in epiphenomenal, cultural habits." (I once asked my wife if she ever learned these words as a little girl, and she says that they learned to denounce them as reactionary relics of the old, black, dark times before liberation in China. Yet to me they just mean: "Workers of the world, you have nothing to lose but your chains....") David Kellogg Macquarie University On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jun 15 06:36:01 2017 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 06:36:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black WhiteAca.pdf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59428d70.04ab630a.1b4d6.0f2a@mx.google.com> David, I hear a particular wisdom tradition distilled in these 4 lines that has offered a mapping for 1000 years Begin with our common human kind. Why begin here?? (answer) humankind good at root/ground). This wisdom tradition focusing on *good* (at heart) is the grounding of humankind Close in Kin?: This focus on what Randall Collins explores as (small groupings). Kin are (close) in their intrinsic essential QUALITIES. Pay attention to these small group qualities within which the (good) prevails within right practice. Far in Forms?: These forms that multiply being epiphenomenal, generated from what is essential ? the good at heart which is the ground of humankind. This presents a message of (hope) within a practice. Randall Collins and Goffman indicate the this intimate goodness occurs within small grouping events. (see Randall Collins book, The Sociology of Philosophies where he sites creativity in small group kin like forms Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: David Kellogg Sent: June 15, 2017 4:43 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black WhiteAca.pdf Thanks, Paul. Often, when I read your work, I am set off by this or that. For example: a) the vastness, almost to the point of vacuity, of the "and" with which you propose to link climate change and the achievement gap, (pp. 1-9) b) the idea that social class is a "language game", (3, 5) c) the idea that the embourgeoisement of black mustic only began in the seventies, (5) d) the idea that what black kids need are more remedial programmes in white English, and (6) e) the lack of any reference to the huge black industrial proletariat whose rise and fall was both the precondition and the postscript of the "American Century" (1-9), f) the number of times you cite yourself in the references! (9). But then I find that almost each point that sets me off has something that sets me back again, in ways that are often just as weird or even weirder. a) I think that in SOME ways the discourse of prosperity IS linked to climate change, but concretely, politically, in the very person of the "poor man's idea of a rich man" president we are now enduring and in his (fortunately tokenistic) perfidy on the Paris Agreement. I also think that the transition of China, from a country that was following the model of "get dirty and then wash your hands" to a country which now seeks--with considerable success--to be a world leader in the struggle against climate change is a model worth considering, not least for the so-called "black -white academic gap". (I don't see how subsistence agriculture enters into it though.) b) Social class is not reducible to a language game, but if I have to choose between John McWhorter's view and that of Paul Mocombe, the latter has Ruqaiya Hasan--and science--on his side. c) Embourgeoisement of black culture was already old in the sixties. But something new DID happen in the seventies--and what happened seems to me linked with point e). d) Remedial programmes based on dialect are not only fruitless--they are beside the point, because the "language game" in b) is not chiefly about vowel sounds or copular "to be". But programmes based on register--on functional literate varieties of whatever dialect you happen to speak. Now you're talking... e) I remember working on the assembly line at General Motors during the seventies to the tune of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5LXTNvJ38w It's not a tune you hear today except on youtube. Something happened to this music and to the people who sang it along with me, but it was the same thing that happened to the industrial proletariat as a whole.... f) Alongside all the hecatombs of Macombes in the reference list, there is an F.E. Frazier! As Halliday likes to say, you shall know names, like nouns, by the company they keep.... In China, the remedial reading programme is the Song Dynasty "Three Character Classic", a little over a thousand years old now. It begins like this: ???? ???? ???? ???? Humankind Good at root Close in kin Far in forms That is, "Humans in their origins are intrinsically, essentially kind to each other. This is because they are close in their intrinsic, essential qualities, and they only differ in epiphenomenal, cultural habits." (I once asked my wife if she ever learned these words as a little girl, and she says that they learned to denounce them as reactionary relics of the old, black, dark times before liberation in China. Yet to me they just mean: "Workers of the world, you have nothing to lose but your chains....") David Kellogg Macquarie University On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jun 15 07:03:32 2017 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 08:03:32 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black WhiteAca.pdf In-Reply-To: <59428d70.04ab630a.1b4d6.0f2a@mx.google.com> References: <59428d70.04ab630a.1b4d6.0f2a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: ?Yes, David, your four lines of the Three Character classic reminds me of my favorite Jane Addams quote (paraphrased): "All antagonisms are unreal." (quoted in Louis Menand's book The Metaphysical Club and based on notes John Dewey sent to his wife Alice regarding his conversations with Addams). -greg ? On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Lplarry wrote: > David, > I hear a particular wisdom tradition distilled in these 4 lines that has > offered a mapping for 1000 years > > Begin with our common human kind. > > Why begin here ? > (answer) humankind good at root/ground). This wisdom tradition focusing > on *good* (at heart) is the grounding of humankind > > Close in Kin : This focus on what Randall Collins explores as (small > groupings). Kin are (close) in their intrinsic essential QUALITIES. Pay > attention to these small group qualities within which the (good) prevails > within right practice. > > Far in Forms : These forms that multiply being epiphenomenal, generated > from what is essential ? the good at heart which is the ground of humankind. > > This presents a message of (hope) within a practice. Randall Collins and > Goffman indicate the this intimate goodness occurs within small grouping > events. > (see Randall Collins book, The Sociology of Philosophies where he sites > creativity in small group kin like forms > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: David Kellogg > Sent: June 15, 2017 4:43 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black > WhiteAca.pdf > > Thanks, Paul. Often, when I read your work, I am set off by this or that. > For example: > > a) the vastness, almost to the point of vacuity, of the "and" with which > you propose to link climate change and the achievement gap, (pp. 1-9) > b) the idea that social class is a "language game", (3, 5) > c) the idea that the embourgeoisement of black mustic only began in the > seventies, (5) > d) the idea that what black kids need are more remedial programmes in white > English, and (6) > e) the lack of any reference to the huge black industrial proletariat whose > rise and fall was both the precondition and the postscript of the "American > Century" (1-9), > f) the number of times you cite yourself in the references! (9). > > But then I find that almost each point that sets me off has something that > sets me back again, in ways that are often just as weird or even weirder. > > a) I think that in SOME ways the discourse of prosperity IS linked to > climate change, but concretely, politically, in the very person of > the "poor man's idea of a rich man" president we are now enduring > and in his (fortunately tokenistic) perfidy on the Paris Agreement. I also > think that the transition of China, from a country that was following the > model of "get dirty and then wash your hands" to a country which now > seeks--with considerable success--to be a world leader in the struggle > against climate change is a model worth considering, not least for the > so-called "black -white academic gap". (I don't see how subsistence > agriculture enters into it though.) > b) Social class is not reducible to a language game, but if I have to > choose between John McWhorter's view and that of Paul Mocombe, the latter > has Ruqaiya Hasan--and science--on his side. > c) Embourgeoisement of black culture was already old in the sixties. But > something new DID happen in the seventies--and what happened seems to me > linked with point e). > d) Remedial programmes based on dialect are not only fruitless--they are > beside the point, because the "language game" in b) is not chiefly about > vowel sounds or copular "to be". But programmes based on register--on > functional literate varieties of whatever dialect you happen to speak. Now > you're talking... > e) I remember working on the assembly line at General Motors during the > seventies to the tune of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5LXTNvJ38w > It's not a tune you hear today except on youtube. Something happened to > this music and to the people who sang it along with me, but it was the same > thing that happened to the industrial proletariat as a whole.... > f) Alongside all the hecatombs of Macombes in the reference list, there is > an F.E. Frazier! As Halliday likes to say, you shall know names, like > nouns, by the company they keep.... > > In China, the remedial reading programme is the Song Dynasty "Three > Character Classic", a little over a thousand years old now. It begins like > this: > > ???? > > ???? > > ???? > > ???? > Humankind > Good at root > Close in kin > Far in forms > > That is, "Humans in their origins are intrinsically, essentially kind to > each other. This is because they are close in their intrinsic, essential > qualities, and they only differ in epiphenomenal, cultural habits." > > (I once asked my wife if she ever learned these words as a little girl, and > she says that they learned to denounce them as reactionary relics of the > old, black, dark times before liberation in China. Yet to me they just > mean: "Workers of the world, you have nothing to lose but your chains....") > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > > On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jun 15 15:19:22 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:19:22 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black WhiteAca.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <59428d70.04ab630a.1b4d6.0f2a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Perhaps I should have translated the first line "Folk at first" (the three characters say something like "Humans in their original state"). In my translation, I was trying to capture a) the trisyllabic structure of each line, b) the allusiveness of ancient Chinese (which as McWhorter points out is still a feature of modern Chinese today), and c) the reliance on "pure" words that have not had any contact with other languages (like trying to translate Beowulf into modern English without any use of Greco-Latinate words). But all of this is really an aside, meant to illustrate the antiquity of the problem of remedial literacy and the fundamentally egalitarian impulse of remedial reading teachers. The real reason why Paul cites himself so often in the references isn't self-adulation; it's that Paul actually does what he talks about; he is author of a whole set of the kind of remedial materials he wants. Anthropologists on the left are often anarchists: they are attracted to "primitive communism" not so much because of the egalitarianism and the common property but because of the statelessness, and the feeling of statelessness that you get when you live in remote areas. The idea of a community which is held together by what Richard B. Lee called "gossip", "ridicule" and the threat of witchcraft instead of police, prisons, and taxes appeals to the cowboy and the colonialist as well as the communist. (I think that it is ONLY societies like these where we can talk of class relations as reducible to language games.) Linguists on the left (and Paul is a very acute one) find themselves in a still more exquisite contradiction. As Halliday says, semiotic systems are always normative with respect to the present and probabilistic with respect to the future, so it is impossible to commit any semiotic act no matter how small that does not slightly change the norms, at least on an interpersonal level, and thus slightly alter the probabilities. So on the one hand, we want to change the world and not just interpret it, and the fact that we work in language makes this not only possible but inevitable. But on the other, we know that the speech of the oppressed is not just every bit as profound and rich and conceptually deep as that of the oppressor, it is more so because the oppressed must be bilingual in ways that oppressors do not require. Do try to save the speech--or the speakers? Paul's predicament is this: to empower a group of flesh and blood kids with white English, you have to disempower their profound, rich, and conceptually deep system of language. If you think about it, you will see that his complaints about the embourgeoisement of black music are similar--to "empower" black music in a bourgeois culture, you must destroy it as a profound, rich, and conceptually deep non-bourgeois semiotic system. That was the "turning point" of the seventies that Paul is pointing to. Sometimes a "turning point" is not a revolution. Paul is unflinching and uncompromising in everything--almost. It is people, at root, who are empowered or disempowered, not language systems, so black kids are just going to have to learn to be profound, rich, and conceptually rich black people in white English (Paul himself is a perfect example). Unlike McWhorter, Paul is a Whorfian, i.e. a real cultural-historical linguist (McWhorter's comments on Whorf show that he is offended by the man, but alas not offended enough to actually read and understand his work). If overcoming the achievement gap means overcoming black English, so be it. Bilingualism which is not voluntary and reversible is not really bilingualism. Paul is not willing to sacrifice real children on the altar of virtual language. But I think the same logic should apply to their children and their children's children when we talk of climate change. So I think in the end the left anthropologist in Paul betrays the left linguist. For the former, the choice is the subsistence agriculture of stateless societies enamored of cowboys, colonialists and communists, societies that can be ruled by language games instead of cops and guns and armies. For the latter, the planned, voluntary and considered degradation of our planetary resources must suffice, and to be deliberate it must be reversible. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 12:03 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > ?Yes, David, your four lines of the Three Character classic reminds me of > my favorite Jane Addams quote (paraphrased): "All antagonisms are unreal." > (quoted in Louis Menand's book The Metaphysical Club and based on notes > John Dewey sent to his wife Alice regarding his conversations with Addams). > -greg ? > > On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Lplarry wrote: > > > David, > > I hear a particular wisdom tradition distilled in these 4 lines that has > > offered a mapping for 1000 years > > > > Begin with our common human kind. > > > > Why begin here ? > > (answer) humankind good at root/ground). This wisdom tradition focusing > > on *good* (at heart) is the grounding of humankind > > > > Close in Kin : This focus on what Randall Collins explores as (small > > groupings). Kin are (close) in their intrinsic essential QUALITIES. Pay > > attention to these small group qualities within which the (good) prevails > > within right practice. > > > > Far in Forms : These forms that multiply being epiphenomenal, generated > > from what is essential ? the good at heart which is the ground of > humankind. > > > > This presents a message of (hope) within a practice. Randall Collins and > > Goffman indicate the this intimate goodness occurs within small grouping > > events. > > (see Randall Collins book, The Sociology of Philosophies where he sites > > creativity in small group kin like forms > > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > From: David Kellogg > > Sent: June 15, 2017 4:43 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black > > WhiteAca.pdf > > > > Thanks, Paul. Often, when I read your work, I am set off by this or that. > > For example: > > > > a) the vastness, almost to the point of vacuity, of the "and" with which > > you propose to link climate change and the achievement gap, (pp. 1-9) > > b) the idea that social class is a "language game", (3, 5) > > c) the idea that the embourgeoisement of black mustic only began in the > > seventies, (5) > > d) the idea that what black kids need are more remedial programmes in > white > > English, and (6) > > e) the lack of any reference to the huge black industrial proletariat > whose > > rise and fall was both the precondition and the postscript of the > "American > > Century" (1-9), > > f) the number of times you cite yourself in the references! (9). > > > > But then I find that almost each point that sets me off has something > that > > sets me back again, in ways that are often just as weird or even weirder. > > > > a) I think that in SOME ways the discourse of prosperity IS linked to > > climate change, but concretely, politically, in the very person of > > the "poor man's idea of a rich man" president we are now enduring > > and in his (fortunately tokenistic) perfidy on the Paris Agreement. I > also > > think that the transition of China, from a country that was following the > > model of "get dirty and then wash your hands" to a country which now > > seeks--with considerable success--to be a world leader in the struggle > > against climate change is a model worth considering, not least for the > > so-called "black -white academic gap". (I don't see how subsistence > > agriculture enters into it though.) > > b) Social class is not reducible to a language game, but if I have to > > choose between John McWhorter's view and that of Paul Mocombe, the latter > > has Ruqaiya Hasan--and science--on his side. > > c) Embourgeoisement of black culture was already old in the sixties. But > > something new DID happen in the seventies--and what happened seems to me > > linked with point e). > > d) Remedial programmes based on dialect are not only fruitless--they are > > beside the point, because the "language game" in b) is not chiefly about > > vowel sounds or copular "to be". But programmes based on register--on > > functional literate varieties of whatever dialect you happen to speak. > Now > > you're talking... > > e) I remember working on the assembly line at General Motors during the > > seventies to the tune of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch? > v=L5LXTNvJ38w > > It's not a tune you hear today except on youtube. Something happened to > > this music and to the people who sang it along with me, but it was the > same > > thing that happened to the industrial proletariat as a whole.... > > f) Alongside all the hecatombs of Macombes in the reference list, there > is > > an F.E. Frazier! As Halliday likes to say, you shall know names, like > > nouns, by the company they keep.... > > > > In China, the remedial reading programme is the Song Dynasty "Three > > Character Classic", a little over a thousand years old now. It begins > like > > this: > > > > ???? > > > > ???? > > > > ???? > > > > ???? > > Humankind > > Good at root > > Close in kin > > Far in forms > > > > That is, "Humans in their origins are intrinsically, essentially kind to > > each other. This is because they are close in their intrinsic, essential > > qualities, and they only differ in epiphenomenal, cultural habits." > > > > (I once asked my wife if she ever learned these words as a little girl, > and > > she says that they learned to denounce them as reactionary relics of the > > old, black, dark times before liberation in China. Yet to me they just > > mean: "Workers of the world, you have nothing to lose but your > chains....") > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Fri Jun 16 01:46:58 2017 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 04:46:58 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black WhiteAca.pdf Message-ID: David, This last reply of yours is very perceptive. As you may or may not know, every year I visit Haiti for my lakou's monthly celebration for the ancestors. ?This is a community, everyone within and outside the lakou participate, celebration that lasts about a month. ?I usually only attend the first two weeks. ? The lakou systems of organizing village life in haiti were established by the african vodou community during slavery and following the revolution (the Haitian sociologist Jean Casimir refers to this as the counter-plantation system). ?There are over 100,000 lakous in haiti, contemporarily, and they function as small communities under a vodou priest or priestess. ?Some lakous are family based others are not. ?Every member of a lakou is given a plot of land to farm and grow crops, which are in turn shared amongst the community. ?New births within a lakou are signified with the planting of a fruit tree, which becomes "the bank account" of the child whose umbilical cord it is planted upon. You are absolutely correct, my attempt to "save" humanity rests on my desire to extrapolate the lakou system as both a form of system and social integration amidst the systemicity and perversities of the capitalist world-system. ?Again, my African ancestors, who established the lakou system, did so against the desires of the affranchis, i.e., mulatto elites and neg creoles, who sought to reproduce the plantation system following independence. ?In the midst of the pressing urgency of global climate change, I find it necessary to abandon the future probabilities of the semiotic act for my lakou upbringing.? Regards,Paul Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: David Kellogg Date: 6/15/17 6:19 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black WhiteAca.pdf Perhaps I should have translated the first line "Folk at first" (the three characters say something like "Humans in their original state"). In my translation, I was trying to capture a) the trisyllabic structure of each line, b) the allusiveness of ancient Chinese (which as McWhorter points out is still a feature of modern Chinese today), and c) the reliance on "pure" words that have not had any contact with other languages (like trying to translate Beowulf into modern English without any use of Greco-Latinate words). But all of this is really an aside, meant to illustrate the antiquity of the problem of remedial literacy and the fundamentally egalitarian impulse of remedial reading teachers. The real reason why Paul cites himself so often in the references isn't self-adulation; it's that Paul actually does what he talks about; he is author of a whole set of the kind of remedial materials he wants. Anthropologists on the left are often anarchists: they are attracted to "primitive communism" not so much because of the egalitarianism and the common property but because of the statelessness, and the feeling of statelessness that you get when you live in remote areas. The idea of a community which is held together by what Richard B. Lee called "gossip", "ridicule" and the threat of witchcraft instead of police, prisons, and taxes appeals to the cowboy and the colonialist as well as the communist. (I think that it is ONLY societies like these where we can talk of class relations as reducible to language games.) Linguists on the left (and Paul is a very acute one) find themselves in a still more exquisite contradiction. As Halliday says, semiotic systems are always normative with respect to the present and probabilistic with respect to the future, so it is impossible to commit any semiotic act no matter how small that does not slightly change the norms, at least on an interpersonal level, and thus slightly alter the probabilities. So on the one hand, we want to change the world and not just interpret it, and the fact that we work in language makes this not only possible but inevitable. But on the other, we know that the speech of the oppressed is not just every bit as profound and rich and conceptually deep as that of the oppressor, it is more so because the oppressed must be bilingual in ways that oppressors do not require. Do try to save the speech--or the speakers? Paul's predicament is this: to empower a group of flesh and blood kids with white English, you have to disempower their profound, rich, and conceptually deep system of language. If you think about it, you will see that his complaints about the embourgeoisement of black music are similar--to "empower" black music in a bourgeois culture, you must destroy it as a profound, rich, and conceptually deep non-bourgeois semiotic system. That was the "turning point" of the seventies that Paul is pointing to. Sometimes a "turning point" is not a revolution. Paul is unflinching and uncompromising in everything--almost. It is people, at root, who are empowered or disempowered, not language systems, so black kids are just going to have to learn to be profound, rich, and conceptually rich black people in white English (Paul himself is a perfect example). Unlike McWhorter, Paul is a Whorfian, i.e. a real cultural-historical linguist (McWhorter's comments on Whorf show that he is offended by the man, but alas not offended enough to actually read and understand his work).? If overcoming the achievement gap means overcoming black English, so be it. Bilingualism which is not voluntary and reversible is not really bilingualism. Paul is not willing to sacrifice real children on the altar of virtual language. But I think the same logic should apply to their children and their children's children when we talk of climate change. So I think in the end the left anthropologist in Paul betrays the left linguist. For the former, the choice is the subsistence agriculture of stateless societies enamored of cowboys, colonialists and communists, societies that can be ruled by language games instead of cops and guns and armies. For the latter, the planned, voluntary and considered degradation of our planetary resources must suffice, and to be deliberate it must be reversible. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 12:03 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > ?Yes, David, your four lines of the Three Character classic reminds me of > my favorite Jane Addams quote (paraphrased): "All antagonisms are unreal." > (quoted in Louis Menand's book The Metaphysical Club and based on notes > John Dewey sent to his wife Alice regarding his conversations with Addams). > -greg ? > > On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Lplarry wrote: > > > David, > > I hear a particular wisdom tradition distilled in these 4 lines that has > > offered a mapping for 1000 years > > > > Begin with our common human kind. > > > > Why begin here ? > > (answer) humankind good at root/ground).? This wisdom tradition focusing > > on *good* (at heart)? is the grounding of humankind > > > > Close in Kin :? This focus on what Randall Collins explores as (small > > groupings).? Kin are (close) in their intrinsic essential QUALITIES. Pay > > attention to these small group qualities within which the (good) prevails > > within right practice. > > > > Far in Forms : These forms that multiply being epiphenomenal, generated > > from what is essential ? the good at heart which is the ground of > humankind. > > > > This presents a message of (hope) within a practice. Randall Collins and > > Goffman indicate the this intimate goodness occurs within small grouping > > events. > > (see Randall Collins book, The Sociology of Philosophies where he sites > > creativity in small group kin like forms > > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > From: David Kellogg > > Sent: June 15, 2017 4:43 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Dialectical Problematic of Resolving the Black > > WhiteAca.pdf > > > > Thanks, Paul. Often, when I read your work, I am set off by this or that. > > For example: > > > > a)? the vastness, almost to the point of vacuity, of the "and" with which > > you propose to link climate change and the achievement gap, (pp. 1-9) > > b) the idea that social class is a "language game",? (3, 5) > > c) the idea that the embourgeoisement of black mustic only began in the > > seventies, (5) > > d) the idea that what black kids need are more remedial programmes in > white > > English, and (6) > > e) the lack of any reference to the huge black industrial proletariat > whose > > rise and fall was both the precondition and the postscript of the > "American > > Century" (1-9), > > f) the number of times you cite yourself in the references! (9). > > > > But then I find that almost each point that sets me off has something > that > > sets me back again, in ways that are often just as weird or even weirder. > > > > a) I think that in SOME ways the discourse of prosperity IS linked to > > climate change, but concretely, politically, in the very person of > > the "poor man's idea of a rich man" president we are now enduring > > and in his (fortunately tokenistic) perfidy on the Paris Agreement. I > also > > think that the transition of China, from a country that was following the > > model of "get dirty and then wash your hands" to a country which now > > seeks--with considerable success--to be a world leader in the struggle > > against climate change is a model worth considering, not least for the > > so-called "black -white academic gap". (I don't see how subsistence > > agriculture enters into it though.) > > b) Social class is not reducible to a language game, but if I have to > > choose between John McWhorter's view and that of Paul Mocombe, the latter > > has Ruqaiya Hasan--and science--on his side. > > c) Embourgeoisement of black culture was already old in the sixties. But > > something new DID happen in the seventies--and what happened seems to me > > linked with point e). > > d) Remedial programmes based on dialect are not only fruitless--they are > > beside the point, because the "language game" in b) is not chiefly about > > vowel sounds or copular "to be". But programmes based on register--on > > functional literate varieties of whatever dialect you happen to speak. > Now > > you're talking... > > e) I remember working on the assembly line at General Motors during the > > seventies to the tune of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch? > v=L5LXTNvJ38w > > It's not a tune you hear today except on youtube. Something happened to > > this music and to the people who sang it along with me, but it was the > same > > thing that happened to the industrial proletariat as a whole.... > > f) Alongside all the hecatombs of Macombes in the reference list, there > is > > an F.E. Frazier! As Halliday likes to say, you shall know names, like > > nouns, by the company they keep.... > > > > In China, the remedial reading programme is the Song Dynasty "Three > > Character Classic", a little over a thousand years old now. It begins > like > > this: > > > > ???? > > > > ???? > > > > ???? > > > > ???? > > Humankind > > Good at root > > Close in kin > > Far in forms > > > > That is, "Humans in their origins are intrinsically, essentially kind to > > each other. This is because they are close in their intrinsic, essential > > qualities, and they only differ in epiphenomenal, cultural habits." > > > > (I once asked my wife if she ever learned these words as a little girl, > and > > she says that they learned to denounce them as reactionary relics of the > > old, black, dark times before liberation in China. Yet to me they just > > mean: "Workers of the world, you have nothing to lose but your > chains....") > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jun 18 07:55:01 2017 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 07:55:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Place Making AS Interactional Rituals Message-ID: <5946943b.8e95620a.ef2c6.236b@mx.google.com> We have recently explored the trajectory of the concept of Interactional ritual activities. Jennifer Vadeboncoeur also alerted us to her new book on Vygotsky and new trajectories currently unfolding. I am sending a 5 page article by Jennifer V (and Shenaz A. Hanif-Shahban.). in these 5 pages is the flavour of a trajectory exploring place making through social engagement within spaces of the lifeworld (lebenswelt) The term (ritual) is not used but I hear ritual as central to this paper. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: VADEBONCOEUR jennifer and Hanif-Shahban shenaz JUNE 18 2017 Cultural Mapping as Social Practice.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 202068 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20170618/3908ca2e/attachment.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jun 18 20:16:37 2017 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 03:16:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Alas... there go the lives of our youth! Message-ID: Greetings, Something I saw in the NYT that heartened me that I had to make like the crow flies to post it. I hope it's not *just* an article but of something more substantial in the making... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/opinion/sunday/sanders-corbyn-socialsts.html The article is written by a woman named Sarah Leonard: "a senior editor at The Nation and a contributing editor at Dissent. She is a co-editor of 'The Future We Want: Radical Ideas for the New Century.' " Maybe someone to watch? Kind regards, Annalisa From helen.grimmett@monash.edu Sun Jun 18 20:36:48 2017 From: helen.grimmett@monash.edu (Helen Grimmett) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 13:36:48 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alas... there go the lives of our youth! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's really interesting. Who is going to be our Australian equivalent, Andy? Cheers, Helen -- *Dr HELEN GRIMMETT * Lecturer in Primary and Early Years Education *Education* Monash University Room A3.10, Peninsula Campus McMahons Rd, Frankston, VIC 3199 T: +61 3 9904 7171 E: helen.grimmett@monash.edu monash.edu *Recent work:* Helen Grimmett (2016): The Problem of ?Just Tell Us?: Insights from Playing with Poetic Inquiry and Dialogical Self Theory, *Studying Teacher Education*, DOI: 10.1080/17425964.2016.1143810 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17425964.2016.1143810 Helen Grimmett (2014), The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical Approach , Rotterdam: Sense Publishers On 19 June 2017 at 13:16, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Greetings, > > > Something I saw in the NYT that heartened me that I had to make like the > crow flies to post it. > > > I hope it's not *just* an article but of something more substantial in the > making... > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/opinion/sunday/sanders- > corbyn-socialsts.html > > > The article is written by a woman named Sarah Leonard: "a senior editor at > The Nation and a contributing editor at Dissent. She is a co-editor of 'The > Future We Want: Radical Ideas for the New Century.' " > > > Maybe someone to watch? > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Jun 18 20:45:01 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 13:45:01 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alas... there go the lives of our youth! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5918b494-8efc-70a2-732d-698a27b82f8f@mira.net> I don't think it can or needs to happen like this in Australia, Helen. Most of the Old Socialists I know are joining the Greens, and taking a back seat there. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 19/06/2017 1:36 PM, Helen Grimmett wrote: > That's really interesting. Who is going to be our Australian equivalent, > Andy? > > Cheers, > Helen > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jun 18 20:52:14 2017 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 03:52:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alas... there go the lives of our youth! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sarah Leonard is a great writer. Read this para from this article [out from under capitalism] May 8, 2017 Look at what she does with 7 sentences. It's just like she shaved the belly of a drunken sailor if you were to ask me, early in the morning! ?[The global tide of populism, right and left, is sweeping neoliberal ideology inexorably into its grave, and none too soon. The neoliberal agenda pushes globalized markets, the entrepreneurial individual, and states that use technocratic means to pave the way for maximum market efficiency. Its advent in the United States may be traced back to the 1970s, when President Jimmy Carter began deregulating the trucking and airline industries. When Carter lost to Ronald Reagan in 1980, the right wing accelerated the slide into neoliberalism into a full-on sprint. The story of the past 40 years is one of nearly unchecked devastation: unions broken, safety nets shredded, and everything from banking to mining to telecommunications deregulated. Alongside growing economic inequality, we have suffered growing political inequality, with a now-famous Princeton study declaring that the influence of ordinary citizens on US policy is ?negligible.? The United States, in other words, has become something of an oligarchy.] link here: https://www.thenation.com/article/out-from-under-capitalism/ I love love this too: [Neoliberalism as common sense is over. The struggle to replace it is on.] It feels really fresh to read this. But then... it *is* The Nation. Kind regards, Annalisa From smago@uga.edu Tue Jun 20 03:35:02 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 10:35:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: mom In-Reply-To: References: <100F27C3-9ADB-4F21-8F74-E81F8FA3C56B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gotta brag about my mom?..she?s among the women-in-science now being recognized retroactively for their contributions to various fields. I never got the STEM gene, and my parents? involvement in the hard sciences probably makes me different from a lot of my social science colleagues. Interesting note: one of my meteorology colleagues at Georgia says that ?hard sciences? are increasingly social sciences because of the impact of people on nature. Maybe we?re onto something. From smago@uga.edu Thu Jun 22 15:10:43 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 22:10:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Brian Street, R.I.P. Message-ID: From: David Bloome > For those of us who draw upon new literacies scholarship, you will join me in mourning Brian Street. It is with great sadness and pain that I share with you that our friend and colleague Brian Street died last night. Lalu shared with us that he was listening to Jazz when he died. Brian had been fighting a long time against a cancer that had riddled his body. There is no information yet about memorial and funeral arrangements. Brian will be remembered for his scholarship and theorizing on literacy and culture; for many of us, we will remember most his optimism about life, his eagerness to engage people in conversation, his friendship, the many doors he opened for others, his love of jazz, and beer at the Bristol pub on Sunday evenings. From babson@gse.upenn.edu Thu Jun 22 15:47:26 2017 From: babson@gse.upenn.edu (Andrew Babson) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 22:47:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Brian Street, R.I.P. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very sad to hear, David's words are right on point, thank you for sharing. On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 18:13 Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > From: David Bloome > > For those of us who draw upon new literacies scholarship, you will join me > in mourning Brian Street. > It is with great sadness and pain that I share with you that our friend > and colleague Brian Street died last night. Lalu shared with us that he > was listening to Jazz when he died. Brian had been fighting a long time > against a cancer that had riddled his body. There is no information yet > about memorial and funeral arrangements. Brian will be remembered for his > scholarship and theorizing on literacy and culture; for many of us, we will > remember most his optimism about life, his eagerness to engage people in > conversation, his friendship, the many doors he opened for others, his love > of jazz, and beer at the Bristol pub on Sunday evenings. > > > -- sent from my phone From s.franklin08@btinternet.com Thu Jun 22 15:58:50 2017 From: s.franklin08@btinternet.com (Shirley Franklin) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 23:58:50 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Brian Street, R.I.P. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks David. It is so sad that my close, close friend of 50 years has died. I got to know Brian as a student at the Oxford Institute of Social Anthropology - not only an academic institution, but also a deeply social one, in the Institute and in the pub! And so started a friendship that impacted on the rest of my life, intellectually and socially. And on our families' lives too. We had such great shared holidays. He was also our best man. Thanks Brains. And here we are, recently, in a posh Brighton pub. > On 22 Jun 2017, at 23:10, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > From: David Bloome > For those of us who draw upon new literacies scholarship, you will join me in mourning Brian Street. > It is with great sadness and pain that I share with you that our friend and colleague Brian Street died last night. Lalu shared with us that he was listening to Jazz when he died. Brian had been fighting a long time against a cancer that had riddled his body. There is no information yet about memorial and funeral arrangements. Brian will be remembered for his scholarship and theorizing on literacy and culture; for many of us, we will remember most his optimism about life, his eagerness to engage people in conversation, his friendship, the many doors he opened for others, his love of jazz, and beer at the Bristol pub on Sunday evenings. > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Jun 22 17:31:13 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:31:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Brian Street, R.I.P. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I knew Brian almost exclusively through our common interest in the work of Jack Goody on the cognitive consequences of literacy. It was an interesting triangle. Brian and I both found things to disagree with Jack about, while finding our own work leading us in allied, but different directions. As editor for special projects at MCA, might I suggest that some sort of colloquium about Brian's ideas might be an appropriate contribution to the journal? Note that it was Peter Smagorinsky who forwarded information from David Bloome who apparently some of you communicate with in a more relaxed fashion than ordinary xmca. If someone wants to play convener of such an undertaking, might they contact me? As Kundera reminds us, the fight of humans against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting. mike On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:58 PM, Shirley Franklin < s.franklin08@btinternet.com> wrote: > Thanks David. > > It is so sad that my close, close friend of 50 years has died. > > I got to know Brian as a student at the Oxford Institute of Social > Anthropology - not only an academic institution, but also a deeply social > one, in the Institute and in the pub! > And so started a friendship that impacted on the rest of my life, > intellectually and socially. And on our families' lives too. We had such > great shared holidays. > He was also our best man. > > Thanks Brains. > > And here we are, recently, in a posh Brighton pub. > > > > On 22 Jun 2017, at 23:10, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > > From: David Bloome > > For those of us who draw upon new literacies scholarship, you will join me > in mourning Brian Street. > > It is with great sadness and pain that I share with you that our friend > and colleague Brian Street died last night. Lalu shared with us that he > was listening to Jazz when he died. Brian had been fighting a long time > against a cancer that had riddled his body. There is no information yet > about memorial and funeral arrangements. Brian will be remembered for his > scholarship and theorizing on literacy and culture; for many of us, we will > remember most his optimism about life, his eagerness to engage people in > conversation, his friendship, the many doors he opened for others, his love > of jazz, and beer at the Bristol pub on Sunday evenings. > > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Fri Jun 23 02:49:30 2017 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 09:49:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Brian Street, R.I.P. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: davidbloome@gmail.com is Dave Bloome's contact info. He worked pretty closely with Brian and would be a good point person for a themed issue. I was more tangential and only forwarded the news. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 8:31 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Brian Street, R.I.P. I knew Brian almost exclusively through our common interest in the work of Jack Goody on the cognitive consequences of literacy. It was an interesting triangle. Brian and I both found things to disagree with Jack about, while finding our own work leading us in allied, but different directions. As editor for special projects at MCA, might I suggest that some sort of colloquium about Brian's ideas might be an appropriate contribution to the journal? Note that it was Peter Smagorinsky who forwarded information from David Bloome who apparently some of you communicate with in a more relaxed fashion than ordinary xmca. If someone wants to play convener of such an undertaking, might they contact me? As Kundera reminds us, the fight of humans against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting. mike On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:58 PM, Shirley Franklin < s.franklin08@btinternet.com> wrote: > Thanks David. > > It is so sad that my close, close friend of 50 years has died. > > I got to know Brian as a student at the Oxford Institute of Social > Anthropology - not only an academic institution, but also a deeply > social one, in the Institute and in the pub! > And so started a friendship that impacted on the rest of my life, > intellectually and socially. And on our families' lives too. We had > such great shared holidays. > He was also our best man. > > Thanks Brains. > > And here we are, recently, in a posh Brighton pub. > > > > On 22 Jun 2017, at 23:10, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > > From: David Bloome > > > > For those of us who draw upon new literacies scholarship, you will > join me in mourning Brian Street. > > It is with great sadness and pain that I share with you that our > > friend > and colleague Brian Street died last night. Lalu shared with us that > he was listening to Jazz when he died. Brian had been fighting a long time > against a cancer that had riddled his body. There is no information yet > about memorial and funeral arrangements. Brian will be remembered for > his scholarship and theorizing on literacy and culture; for many of > us, we will remember most his optimism about life, his eagerness to > engage people in conversation, his friendship, the many doors he > opened for others, his love of jazz, and beer at the Bristol pub on Sunday evenings. > > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Jun 25 15:09:01 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 07:09:01 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Social and the Semiotic Message-ID: A few years ago there was a minor theoretical kerfuffle at the International Congress of Systemic Functional Linguistics in Vancouver. Systemic Functional Linguists tend to be gentle, ruminant creatures, who frown on intellectual prize fighting (building "vertical" intellectual structures, like building chemistry on physics and biology on chemistry, is the goal rather than building "horizontal" knowledge structures like competing fields of sociology, psychology, cognitive science). But they also prize delicacy and like to make fine distinctions that account exhaustively for data (e.g. vocabulary is treated as nothing but most delicate grammar, and grammar as most general forms of vocabulary, hence the use of "words" for the latter and "wording" for the former). Accounting exhaustively for language as a social-semiotic phenomenon usually involves a delicate distinction between the social and the semiotic, something like the distinction between physics and chemistry on the one hand and biology on the other. But Jim Martin argued that semiotic activity does not occur independent of social activity and vice versa, so, by Occam's razor, the terms are redundant and the hyphen superfluous. Surely the distinction between social behavior and meaningful behavior is nothing like the distinction between animate and inanimate, sentient and non-sentient, carbon-based self-replicating matter and inorganic compounds. Yesterday, we went whale watching out of Sydney Harbour. The Southwest Pacitic humpback community, which numbers between thirty and forty thousand, spends the summer (that is, your winter) months in Antarctica feeding on krill and small fish; they have an ingenious method of feeding called bubble-netting which takes about 27 years for a whale to learn. It's a lot like Leontiev's description of a primitive hunt: twelve whales work together to emit a circle of small bubbles encircling the prey, and gradually shaping it into a tall cylinder about thirty metres in diameter. When the krill kill is shaped in this way, the dinner table is set. The whales just sluice up and down through the cylinder with their baleen plates agape, raking in thousands of fish and/or tiny crustaceans with each pass. But then they embark on the road trip which brings them past Sydney Harbour and to points further north. The migration lasts many months, during which the whales do not eat at all. Even mothers, who have to produce about 40 litres of whale milk daily, fast the whole six months. I noticed that the whales we saw were always in groups of two or three and I wondered to the marine biologist on board if whales worked in small communities in Antarctica but then went on holidays in nuclear families. She pointed out that these dyads and triads were all the same size and gender. "They're just mates," she said. She also said that the study of whale songs is being "de-anthropmorphized": it was previously believed that since they vary much like languages, with regional dialects and some "multilingualism", they must have an economic function in feeding, a sexual function in mating, or a political function in establishing male dominance (no easy feat, because females are polyandrous and rather larger than males). None of this is the case: whales sing when they aren't feeding, when they aren't mating, and when they aren't fighting: they just like to sing. And in fact the four-tone songs vary more like pop-tunes than like regional dialects or functional registers. Now, when the kerfuffle broke out between Halliday and Martin in Vancouver, Halliday pointed to ants as a species who were social but not semiotic (there is no reason to believe that "meaning" as distinct from molecular biology is at stake). You might think the Southwest Pacific humpback community is a good counter example, since they clearly have both social and semiotic activity. But it seems to me exactly the opposite: they are a clear example that social activity is goal oriented in one way, and semiotic activity is goal oriented in quite a different way. I have never liked using the term socio-cultural to describe Vygotsky's theory (it is the term generally used in my own field of applied linguistics) because I thought it was redundant; now I am not so sure. -- David Kellogg Macquarie University "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" Free Chapters Downloadable at: https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children Free E-print Downloadable at: http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full From jamesma320@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 01:19:21 2017 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 09:19:21 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello David, I have an applied linguistics background too. My first acquaintance with the term "sociocultural" was in the work of H Stern who described sociocultural factors in language learning and teaching. I do feel a bit strange that "sociocultural" appears to be interchangeable with "cultural-historical" when people talk about Vygotsky and his followers. James *_________________________________________________________* *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa * On 25 June 2017 at 23:09, David Kellogg wrote: > A few years ago there was a minor theoretical kerfuffle at the > International Congress of Systemic Functional Linguistics in Vancouver. > Systemic Functional Linguists tend to be gentle, ruminant creatures, who > frown on intellectual prize fighting (building "vertical" intellectual > structures, like building chemistry on physics and biology on chemistry, is > the goal rather than building "horizontal" knowledge structures like > competing fields of sociology, psychology, cognitive science). But they > also prize delicacy and like to make fine distinctions that account > exhaustively for data (e.g. vocabulary is treated as nothing but most > delicate grammar, and grammar as most general forms of vocabulary, hence > the use of "words" for the latter and "wording" for the former). > > Accounting exhaustively for language as a social-semiotic phenomenon > usually involves a delicate distinction between the social and the > semiotic, something like the distinction between physics and chemistry on > the one hand and biology on the other. But Jim Martin argued that semiotic > activity does not occur independent of social activity and vice versa, so, > by Occam's razor, the terms are redundant and the hyphen superfluous. > Surely the distinction between social behavior and meaningful behavior is > nothing like the distinction between animate and inanimate, sentient and > non-sentient, carbon-based self-replicating matter and inorganic compounds. > > Yesterday, we went whale watching out of Sydney Harbour. The Southwest > Pacitic humpback community, which numbers between thirty and forty > thousand, spends the summer (that is, your winter) months in Antarctica > feeding on krill and small fish; they have an ingenious method of feeding > called bubble-netting which takes about 27 years for a whale to learn. It's > a lot like Leontiev's description of a primitive hunt: twelve whales work > together to emit a circle of small bubbles encircling the prey, and > gradually shaping it into a tall cylinder about thirty metres in diameter. > When the krill kill is shaped in this way, the dinner table is set. The > whales just sluice up and down through the cylinder with their baleen > plates agape, raking in thousands of fish and/or tiny crustaceans with each > pass. > > But then they embark on the road trip which brings them past Sydney Harbour > and to points further north. The migration lasts many months, during which > the whales do not eat at all. Even mothers, who have to produce about 40 > litres of whale milk daily, fast the whole six months. I noticed that the > whales we saw were always in groups of two or three and I wondered to the > marine biologist on board if whales worked in small communities in > Antarctica but then went on holidays in nuclear families. She pointed out > that these dyads and triads were all the same size and gender. "They're > just mates," she said. > > She also said that the study of whale songs is being "de-anthropmorphized": > it was previously believed that since they vary much like languages, with > regional dialects and some "multilingualism", they must have an economic > function in feeding, a sexual function in mating, or a political function > in establishing male dominance (no easy feat, because females are > polyandrous and rather larger than males). None of this is the case: whales > sing when they aren't feeding, when they aren't mating, and when they > aren't fighting: they just like to sing. And in fact the four-tone songs > vary more like pop-tunes than like regional dialects or functional > registers. > > Now, when the kerfuffle broke out between Halliday and Martin in Vancouver, > Halliday pointed to ants as a species who were social but not semiotic > (there is no reason to believe that "meaning" as distinct from molecular > biology is at stake). You might think the Southwest Pacific humpback > community is a good counter example, since they clearly have both social > and semiotic activity. But it seems to me exactly the opposite: they are a > clear example that social activity is goal oriented in one way, and > semiotic activity is goal oriented in quite a different way. I have never > liked using the term socio-cultural to describe Vygotsky's theory (it is > the term generally used in my own field of applied linguistics) because I > thought it was redundant; now I am not so sure. > > -- > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: > Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with > Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" > > Free Chapters Downloadable at: > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great- > globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf > > Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations > on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children > > Free E-print Downloadable at: > > http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 08:41:05 2017 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 08:41:05 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59512b14.c5d5620a.2d918.17f0@mx.google.com> James, If there is a strangeness that you experience when placing (sociocultural) with (cultural-historical) I wonder if you have traced this strangeness as this felt experience travelled. When leaving the vacinity of Vygotsky and his followers, what was concealed and what revealed?. Your strange feeling is an opening. Where does this feeling lead. David, those tricky diacritical marks as pivots (what does the diacritical mark ? mean? Sociocultural or socio-cultural Culturalhistorical or cultural historical James, David, How do these questions travel? Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: James Ma Sent: June 26, 2017 1:22 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic Hello David, I have an applied linguistics background too. My first acquaintance with the term "sociocultural" was in the work of H Stern who described sociocultural factors in language learning and teaching. I do feel a bit strange that "sociocultural" appears to be interchangeable with "cultural-historical" when people talk about Vygotsky and his followers. James *_________________________________________________________* *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa * On 25 June 2017 at 23:09, David Kellogg wrote: > A few years ago there was a minor theoretical kerfuffle at the > International Congress of Systemic Functional Linguistics in Vancouver. > Systemic Functional Linguists tend to be gentle, ruminant creatures, who > frown on intellectual prize fighting (building "vertical" intellectual > structures, like building chemistry on physics and biology on chemistry, is > the goal rather than building "horizontal" knowledge structures like > competing fields of sociology, psychology, cognitive science). But they > also prize delicacy and like to make fine distinctions that account > exhaustively for data (e.g. vocabulary is treated as nothing but most > delicate grammar, and grammar as most general forms of vocabulary, hence > the use of "words" for the latter and "wording" for the former). > > Accounting exhaustively for language as a social-semiotic phenomenon > usually involves a delicate distinction between the social and the > semiotic, something like the distinction between physics and chemistry on > the one hand and biology on the other. But Jim Martin argued that semiotic > activity does not occur independent of social activity and vice versa, so, > by Occam's razor, the terms are redundant and the hyphen superfluous. > Surely the distinction between social behavior and meaningful behavior is > nothing like the distinction between animate and inanimate, sentient and > non-sentient, carbon-based self-replicating matter and inorganic compounds. > > Yesterday, we went whale watching out of Sydney Harbour. The Southwest > Pacitic humpback community, which numbers between thirty and forty > thousand, spends the summer (that is, your winter) months in Antarctica > feeding on krill and small fish; they have an ingenious method of feeding > called bubble-netting which takes about 27 years for a whale to learn. It's > a lot like Leontiev's description of a primitive hunt: twelve whales work > together to emit a circle of small bubbles encircling the prey, and > gradually shaping it into a tall cylinder about thirty metres in diameter. > When the krill kill is shaped in this way, the dinner table is set. The > whales just sluice up and down through the cylinder with their baleen > plates agape, raking in thousands of fish and/or tiny crustaceans with each > pass. > > But then they embark on the road trip which brings them past Sydney Harbour > and to points further north. The migration lasts many months, during which > the whales do not eat at all. Even mothers, who have to produce about 40 > litres of whale milk daily, fast the whole six months. I noticed that the > whales we saw were always in groups of two or three and I wondered to the > marine biologist on board if whales worked in small communities in > Antarctica but then went on holidays in nuclear families. She pointed out > that these dyads and triads were all the same size and gender. "They're > just mates," she said. > > She also said that the study of whale songs is being "de-anthropmorphized": > it was previously believed that since they vary much like languages, with > regional dialects and some "multilingualism", they must have an economic > function in feeding, a sexual function in mating, or a political function > in establishing male dominance (no easy feat, because females are > polyandrous and rather larger than males). None of this is the case: whales > sing when they aren't feeding, when they aren't mating, and when they > aren't fighting: they just like to sing. And in fact the four-tone songs > vary more like pop-tunes than like regional dialects or functional > registers. > > Now, when the kerfuffle broke out between Halliday and Martin in Vancouver, > Halliday pointed to ants as a species who were social but not semiotic > (there is no reason to believe that "meaning" as distinct from molecular > biology is at stake). You might think the Southwest Pacific humpback > community is a good counter example, since they clearly have both social > and semiotic activity. But it seems to me exactly the opposite: they are a > clear example that social activity is goal oriented in one way, and > semiotic activity is goal oriented in quite a different way. I have never > liked using the term socio-cultural to describe Vygotsky's theory (it is > the term generally used in my own field of applied linguistics) because I > thought it was redundant; now I am not so sure. > > -- > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: > Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with > Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" > > Free Chapters Downloadable at: > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great- > globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf > > Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations > on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children > > Free E-print Downloadable at: > > http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Jun 26 08:53:57 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 01:53:57 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> The inclusion of "historical" is quite loaded, James, marking the Soviet heritage of CHAT, and rejected by those who regard the inclusion of "historical" as a modern arrogance based on notions of social progress. Personally, I like "historical" while I reject the notion of cultural totalities which can be ordered unproblematically, whether chronologically or otherwise. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 26/06/2017 6:19 PM, James Ma wrote: > Hello David, I have an applied linguistics background too. My first > acquaintance with the term "sociocultural" was in the work of H Stern who > described sociocultural factors in language learning and teaching. I do > feel a bit strange that "sociocultural" appears to be interchangeable > with "cultural-historical" when people talk about Vygotsky and his > followers. > > James > > > *_________________________________________________________* > > *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa > * > > > > On 25 June 2017 at 23:09, David Kellogg wrote: > >> A few years ago there was a minor theoretical kerfuffle at the >> International Congress of Systemic Functional Linguistics in Vancouver. >> Systemic Functional Linguists tend to be gentle, ruminant creatures, who >> frown on intellectual prize fighting (building "vertical" intellectual >> structures, like building chemistry on physics and biology on chemistry, is >> the goal rather than building "horizontal" knowledge structures like >> competing fields of sociology, psychology, cognitive science). But they >> also prize delicacy and like to make fine distinctions that account >> exhaustively for data (e.g. vocabulary is treated as nothing but most >> delicate grammar, and grammar as most general forms of vocabulary, hence >> the use of "words" for the latter and "wording" for the former). >> >> Accounting exhaustively for language as a social-semiotic phenomenon >> usually involves a delicate distinction between the social and the >> semiotic, something like the distinction between physics and chemistry on >> the one hand and biology on the other. But Jim Martin argued that semiotic >> activity does not occur independent of social activity and vice versa, so, >> by Occam's razor, the terms are redundant and the hyphen superfluous. >> Surely the distinction between social behavior and meaningful behavior is >> nothing like the distinction between animate and inanimate, sentient and >> non-sentient, carbon-based self-replicating matter and inorganic compounds. >> >> Yesterday, we went whale watching out of Sydney Harbour. The Southwest >> Pacitic humpback community, which numbers between thirty and forty >> thousand, spends the summer (that is, your winter) months in Antarctica >> feeding on krill and small fish; they have an ingenious method of feeding >> called bubble-netting which takes about 27 years for a whale to learn. It's >> a lot like Leontiev's description of a primitive hunt: twelve whales work >> together to emit a circle of small bubbles encircling the prey, and >> gradually shaping it into a tall cylinder about thirty metres in diameter. >> When the krill kill is shaped in this way, the dinner table is set. The >> whales just sluice up and down through the cylinder with their baleen >> plates agape, raking in thousands of fish and/or tiny crustaceans with each >> pass. >> >> But then they embark on the road trip which brings them past Sydney Harbour >> and to points further north. The migration lasts many months, during which >> the whales do not eat at all. Even mothers, who have to produce about 40 >> litres of whale milk daily, fast the whole six months. I noticed that the >> whales we saw were always in groups of two or three and I wondered to the >> marine biologist on board if whales worked in small communities in >> Antarctica but then went on holidays in nuclear families. She pointed out >> that these dyads and triads were all the same size and gender. "They're >> just mates," she said. >> >> She also said that the study of whale songs is being "de-anthropmorphized": >> it was previously believed that since they vary much like languages, with >> regional dialects and some "multilingualism", they must have an economic >> function in feeding, a sexual function in mating, or a political function >> in establishing male dominance (no easy feat, because females are >> polyandrous and rather larger than males). None of this is the case: whales >> sing when they aren't feeding, when they aren't mating, and when they >> aren't fighting: they just like to sing. And in fact the four-tone songs >> vary more like pop-tunes than like regional dialects or functional >> registers. >> >> Now, when the kerfuffle broke out between Halliday and Martin in Vancouver, >> Halliday pointed to ants as a species who were social but not semiotic >> (there is no reason to believe that "meaning" as distinct from molecular >> biology is at stake). You might think the Southwest Pacific humpback >> community is a good counter example, since they clearly have both social >> and semiotic activity. But it seems to me exactly the opposite: they are a >> clear example that social activity is goal oriented in one way, and >> semiotic activity is goal oriented in quite a different way. I have never >> liked using the term socio-cultural to describe Vygotsky's theory (it is >> the term generally used in my own field of applied linguistics) because I >> thought it was redundant; now I am not so sure. >> >> -- >> David Kellogg >> Macquarie University >> >> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: >> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with >> Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" >> >> Free Chapters Downloadable at: >> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great- >> globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf >> >> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations >> on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children >> >> Free E-print Downloadable at: >> >> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full >> > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 14:40:41 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 06:40:41 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> Message-ID: I never thought of a hyphen as being diacritical (that is, indicating different options in the pronunciation of a word), but of course Larry is quite right: so for example the word "re-mediate" is pronounced differently from the word "remediate". I suppose because so much of my work is grammatical rather than phonological, I have always though of the hyphen as having the same relationship to morphemes that a comma has to clauses: it is a punctuation that is still stylistic rather than standardized, and it is used to indicate that morphemes are linked but distinct rather than part of a single unified morphological word (just as an Oxford comma is stylistic rather than standard, and "She tore up the letter which upset me (i.e. the letter upset me)" has a more linked meaning than "She tore up the letter, which upset me (i.e. her tearing up the letter upset me)." So the word "socio-cultural" always suggests to me process-and-product, while "sociocultural" suggests a rather thoughtless conflation of the two (for example, the way in which James Lantolf, Steve Thorne, and their students use it as a synonym for "Vygotskyan"). I notice that the French prefer "historico-culturelle" to "cultural-historical", and actually "historico-cultural" is what Vygotsky himself says on the rare occasions he tries to name what he is doing. It seems to me that here too we have process before product. I certainly don't think that Vygotsky himself was modest about the idea of history as a process leading to more complex forms of culture; one obvious sign that human progress in that sense is a reality is that here in Australia the attitude towards indigeneous peoples is sometimes one of patronization, condescension, liberal "tolerance and acceptance", and sometimes assimilationism, but it is not, as it was not so very long ago, outright casual or state-sponsored genocide. I think that to say that this does not represent human progress is a little like saying that the child's acquisition of speech, of self-love, and of true concepts does not represent development. The problem is that all real development is nonlinear, U-shaped, and crisis ridden. So on the face of it whales live a life something like the primitive hunting and gathering peoples described by anthropologists like Marshall Sahlins and Richard Lee: they are an "affluent society" that has achieved affluence not by expanding their means but rather by restricting their wants. It's a remarkable achievement, easily comparable to the kind of progress we see in hunter gatherers who have created societies that function on a fraction of the human labor required in modern societies. But it's very easy to point to the seasonal weight loss of whales (similar to seasonal weight loss in hunting and gathering societies) and imagine that their creation of a distinct "road trip" phase of life in which no food is taken in (and this is the period when calving occurs and mothers have to be generating forty litres of whale milk a day!) is not a form of survival but a form of suicide. As soon as we are able to distinguish as a period of semiosis (which is NOT goal oriented activity in the CHAT sense) then I think its value in the life cycle of the whale becomes a little clearer. - David Kellogg Macquarie University "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" Free Chapters Downloadable at: https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children Free E-print Downloadable at: http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > The inclusion of "historical" is quite loaded, James, marking the Soviet > heritage of CHAT, and rejected by those who regard the inclusion of > "historical" as a modern arrogance based on notions of social progress. > Personally, I like "historical" while I reject the notion of cultural > totalities which can be ordered unproblematically, whether chronologically > or otherwise. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 26/06/2017 6:19 PM, James Ma wrote: > >> Hello David, I have an applied linguistics background too. My first >> acquaintance with the term "sociocultural" was in the work of H Stern who >> described sociocultural factors in language learning and teaching. I do >> feel a bit strange that "sociocultural" appears to be interchangeable >> with "cultural-historical" when people talk about Vygotsky and his >> followers. >> >> James >> >> >> *_________________________________________________________* >> >> *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa >> * >> >> >> >> On 25 June 2017 at 23:09, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> A few years ago there was a minor theoretical kerfuffle at the >>> International Congress of Systemic Functional Linguistics in Vancouver. >>> Systemic Functional Linguists tend to be gentle, ruminant creatures, who >>> frown on intellectual prize fighting (building "vertical" intellectual >>> structures, like building chemistry on physics and biology on chemistry, >>> is >>> the goal rather than building "horizontal" knowledge structures like >>> competing fields of sociology, psychology, cognitive science). But they >>> also prize delicacy and like to make fine distinctions that account >>> exhaustively for data (e.g. vocabulary is treated as nothing but most >>> delicate grammar, and grammar as most general forms of vocabulary, hence >>> the use of "words" for the latter and "wording" for the former). >>> >>> Accounting exhaustively for language as a social-semiotic phenomenon >>> usually involves a delicate distinction between the social and the >>> semiotic, something like the distinction between physics and chemistry on >>> the one hand and biology on the other. But Jim Martin argued that >>> semiotic >>> activity does not occur independent of social activity and vice versa, >>> so, >>> by Occam's razor, the terms are redundant and the hyphen superfluous. >>> Surely the distinction between social behavior and meaningful behavior is >>> nothing like the distinction between animate and inanimate, sentient and >>> non-sentient, carbon-based self-replicating matter and inorganic >>> compounds. >>> >>> Yesterday, we went whale watching out of Sydney Harbour. The Southwest >>> Pacitic humpback community, which numbers between thirty and forty >>> thousand, spends the summer (that is, your winter) months in Antarctica >>> feeding on krill and small fish; they have an ingenious method of feeding >>> called bubble-netting which takes about 27 years for a whale to learn. >>> It's >>> a lot like Leontiev's description of a primitive hunt: twelve whales work >>> together to emit a circle of small bubbles encircling the prey, and >>> gradually shaping it into a tall cylinder about thirty metres in >>> diameter. >>> When the krill kill is shaped in this way, the dinner table is set. The >>> whales just sluice up and down through the cylinder with their baleen >>> plates agape, raking in thousands of fish and/or tiny crustaceans with >>> each >>> pass. >>> >>> But then they embark on the road trip which brings them past Sydney >>> Harbour >>> and to points further north. The migration lasts many months, during >>> which >>> the whales do not eat at all. Even mothers, who have to produce about 40 >>> litres of whale milk daily, fast the whole six months. I noticed that the >>> whales we saw were always in groups of two or three and I wondered to the >>> marine biologist on board if whales worked in small communities in >>> Antarctica but then went on holidays in nuclear families. She pointed out >>> that these dyads and triads were all the same size and gender. "They're >>> just mates," she said. >>> >>> She also said that the study of whale songs is being >>> "de-anthropmorphized": >>> it was previously believed that since they vary much like languages, with >>> regional dialects and some "multilingualism", they must have an economic >>> function in feeding, a sexual function in mating, or a political function >>> in establishing male dominance (no easy feat, because females are >>> polyandrous and rather larger than males). None of this is the case: >>> whales >>> sing when they aren't feeding, when they aren't mating, and when they >>> aren't fighting: they just like to sing. And in fact the four-tone songs >>> vary more like pop-tunes than like regional dialects or functional >>> registers. >>> >>> Now, when the kerfuffle broke out between Halliday and Martin in >>> Vancouver, >>> Halliday pointed to ants as a species who were social but not semiotic >>> (there is no reason to believe that "meaning" as distinct from molecular >>> biology is at stake). You might think the Southwest Pacific humpback >>> community is a good counter example, since they clearly have both social >>> and semiotic activity. But it seems to me exactly the opposite: they are >>> a >>> clear example that social activity is goal oriented in one way, and >>> semiotic activity is goal oriented in quite a different way. I have never >>> liked using the term socio-cultural to describe Vygotsky's theory (it is >>> the term generally used in my own field of applied linguistics) because I >>> thought it was redundant; now I am not so sure. >>> >>> -- >>> David Kellogg >>> Macquarie University >>> >> > - From nataliag@sfu.ca Mon Jun 26 14:57:05 2017 From: nataliag@sfu.ca (Natalia Gajdamaschko) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 14:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Call for proposals from the Cultural-Historical Research SIG, AERA 2018 In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> Message-ID: <812256628.1087156.1498514225286.JavaMail.zimbra@sfu.ca> Dear All! I am forwarding an invitation on behalf of the Cultural-Historical Research SIG at AERA. Please, consider joining us in NY next year! Best wishes! SIG Officers, Carrie Lobman, Aria Razfar, Natalia Gajdamaschko. ______________________________________________________________________________________ Over the last year, we have witnessed a dramatic spike in authoritarian discourses, experienced the continuous degradation of public institutions, and seen a steady rise in vitriol against non-dominant populations across the globe. The institutionalization of anti-intellectual ideologies has many wondering about the impact on learning and educational outcomes. Scholars working from a sociocultural and critical perspective are wondering: does Vygotsky still matter? Or better yet, how does he matter? Over the last four decades, Vygotsky?s theories (and that of his colleagues) have become some of the most utilized frameworks for innovations in education in formal and informal settings. In that time, Vygotsky?s original work has given birth to a wide range of theories and practices, including Socio-Cultural, Cultural-Historical, Activity, and related critical and post-modern approaches, all of which are represented by the Cultural-Historical Research SIG. The CHR SIG of AERA is therefore calling for proposals for the 2018 Annual Meeting that represent the breadth and relevance of Vygotskian, Socio-Cultural, Activity and related theory, research and practice for education in the 21st century. We are particularly seeking proposals that represent: ? The diversity of approaches that fall under the umbrella of CHR, including, socio-cultural, Marxist, activity, and arts-based and postmodern approaches. ? The role of language and linguistics in Vygotskian inspired theories of learning and development. ? The relevance of Vygotsky for innovations in education that offer creative responses to the ongoing education ?crisis? in the US and around the world ? The range of methodologies that utilize CH approaches, including mixed methods, action research, arts based research, and performance studies. ? The diversity of fields and settings in which CH theory is used and to which it is applicable (i.e. early childhood, outside of school, STEM learning, literacy, adult learning, ELL). ? Proposals that explore the past, present and future of CH approaches. ? Proposals that address the intersections of CH theories with critical theories that include, for example, focus on relations of power, activities that create the ?Other,? and sources of oppression. _______________________________________________________________________ From jamesma320@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 10:28:49 2017 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 18:28:49 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks Andy, your personal take on is very interesting - perhaps you could enlighten me on your point? Larry, such strangeness has much to do with the vagueness of "sociocultural" reflected in sociocultural theory itself. Although my current work focuses on Peirce and Vygotsky, the Hallidayan imagery is always saliently present in my mind. Halliday is explicitly sociocultural. Vygotsky used this term to refer to the higher psychological functions as "sociocultural" in origin (e.g. p. 46 in Mind in Society), but he defined his own paradigm using the term "cultural-historical". To me, "sociocultural" is somehow still in wholesale fashion - maybe it should move out and become something which would epitomise "cultural-historical"? For years I've been taking "sociocultural" and "cultural-historical" to be customary terms. However, this doesn't stop me being "ruminant" (here I borrow David's word portraying the SFL mindset) about the essence of these terms, albeit seldom reaching anything with satisfaction. At times I find myself concluding that three entities - social, cultural and historical - form an indispensable core of human existence. I know this is no more than stating the obvious! More to the point, the way I see it is that "social" is enmeshed with "cultural" and "sociocultural" as a whole is entangled with itself in itself - this entanglement is perhaps the essence of the term. But the problem is that these two entities intertwine in a complex whole that appears to be simultaneously "social" and "cultural" in an ambiguous way. Anyway, on a positive note, this is perhaps ambiguity par excellence, as Emmanuel Levinas would say! Or perhaps Umberto Eco's "unlimited semiosis"! James *_____________________________________* *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa * On 26 June 2017 at 16:53, Andy Blunden wrote: > The inclusion of "historical" is quite loaded, James, marking the Soviet > heritage of CHAT, and rejected by those who regard the inclusion of > "historical" as a modern arrogance based on notions of social progress. > Personally, I like "historical" while I reject the notion of cultural > totalities which can be ordered unproblematically, whether chronologically > or otherwise. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 26/06/2017 6:19 PM, James Ma wrote: > >> Hello David, I have an applied linguistics background too. My first >> acquaintance with the term "sociocultural" was in the work of H Stern who >> described sociocultural factors in language learning and teaching. I do >> feel a bit strange that "sociocultural" appears to be interchangeable >> with "cultural-historical" when people talk about Vygotsky and his >> followers. >> >> James >> >> >> *_________________________________________________________* >> >> *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa >> * >> >> >> >> On 25 June 2017 at 23:09, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> A few years ago there was a minor theoretical kerfuffle at the >>> International Congress of Systemic Functional Linguistics in Vancouver. >>> Systemic Functional Linguists tend to be gentle, ruminant creatures, who >>> frown on intellectual prize fighting (building "vertical" intellectual >>> structures, like building chemistry on physics and biology on chemistry, >>> is >>> the goal rather than building "horizontal" knowledge structures like >>> competing fields of sociology, psychology, cognitive science). But they >>> also prize delicacy and like to make fine distinctions that account >>> exhaustively for data (e.g. vocabulary is treated as nothing but most >>> delicate grammar, and grammar as most general forms of vocabulary, hence >>> the use of "words" for the latter and "wording" for the former). >>> >>> Accounting exhaustively for language as a social-semiotic phenomenon >>> usually involves a delicate distinction between the social and the >>> semiotic, something like the distinction between physics and chemistry on >>> the one hand and biology on the other. But Jim Martin argued that >>> semiotic >>> activity does not occur independent of social activity and vice versa, >>> so, >>> by Occam's razor, the terms are redundant and the hyphen superfluous. >>> Surely the distinction between social behavior and meaningful behavior is >>> nothing like the distinction between animate and inanimate, sentient and >>> non-sentient, carbon-based self-replicating matter and inorganic >>> compounds. >>> >>> Yesterday, we went whale watching out of Sydney Harbour. The Southwest >>> Pacitic humpback community, which numbers between thirty and forty >>> thousand, spends the summer (that is, your winter) months in Antarctica >>> feeding on krill and small fish; they have an ingenious method of feeding >>> called bubble-netting which takes about 27 years for a whale to learn. >>> It's >>> a lot like Leontiev's description of a primitive hunt: twelve whales work >>> together to emit a circle of small bubbles encircling the prey, and >>> gradually shaping it into a tall cylinder about thirty metres in >>> diameter. >>> When the krill kill is shaped in this way, the dinner table is set. The >>> whales just sluice up and down through the cylinder with their baleen >>> plates agape, raking in thousands of fish and/or tiny crustaceans with >>> each >>> pass. >>> >>> But then they embark on the road trip which brings them past Sydney >>> Harbour >>> and to points further north. The migration lasts many months, during >>> which >>> the whales do not eat at all. Even mothers, who have to produce about 40 >>> litres of whale milk daily, fast the whole six months. I noticed that the >>> whales we saw were always in groups of two or three and I wondered to the >>> marine biologist on board if whales worked in small communities in >>> Antarctica but then went on holidays in nuclear families. She pointed out >>> that these dyads and triads were all the same size and gender. "They're >>> just mates," she said. >>> >>> She also said that the study of whale songs is being >>> "de-anthropmorphized": >>> it was previously believed that since they vary much like languages, with >>> regional dialects and some "multilingualism", they must have an economic >>> function in feeding, a sexual function in mating, or a political function >>> in establishing male dominance (no easy feat, because females are >>> polyandrous and rather larger than males). None of this is the case: >>> whales >>> sing when they aren't feeding, when they aren't mating, and when they >>> aren't fighting: they just like to sing. And in fact the four-tone songs >>> vary more like pop-tunes than like regional dialects or functional >>> registers. >>> >>> Now, when the kerfuffle broke out between Halliday and Martin in >>> Vancouver, >>> Halliday pointed to ants as a species who were social but not semiotic >>> (there is no reason to believe that "meaning" as distinct from molecular >>> biology is at stake). You might think the Southwest Pacific humpback >>> community is a good counter example, since they clearly have both social >>> and semiotic activity. But it seems to me exactly the opposite: they are >>> a >>> clear example that social activity is goal oriented in one way, and >>> semiotic activity is goal oriented in quite a different way. I have never >>> liked using the term socio-cultural to describe Vygotsky's theory (it is >>> the term generally used in my own field of applied linguistics) because I >>> thought it was redundant; now I am not so sure. >>> >>> -- >>> David Kellogg >>> Macquarie University >>> >>> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: >>> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with >>> Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" >>> >>> Free Chapters Downloadable at: >>> >>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great- >>> globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf >>> >>> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some >>> Ruminations >>> on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children >>> >>> Free E-print Downloadable at: >>> >>> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full >>> >>> >> > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Jun 27 10:56:05 2017 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 10:56:05 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> Message-ID: Could someone in this discussion explain to me the relationship between social-semiotics and the sounds of whales which David used as the springboard to the comments about socio ? cultural. It appears to be clear to all of you, but it is not at all clear to me! The question of the ways that different people have referred to the Vygotsky- inspired theorizing has been discussed a fair number of times here on xmca and I would be happy to re-visit it. But David was (I thought) seriously linking the early and late parts of his note and I could not follow it into the recent notes. Guidance much appreciated. mike On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:28 AM, James Ma wrote: > Thanks Andy, your personal take on is very interesting - perhaps you could > enlighten me on your point? > > Larry, such strangeness has much to do with the vagueness of > "sociocultural" reflected in sociocultural theory itself. Although my > current work focuses on Peirce and Vygotsky, the Hallidayan imagery is > always saliently present in my mind. Halliday is explicitly > sociocultural. Vygotsky used this term to refer to the higher > psychological functions as "sociocultural" in origin (e.g. p. 46 in Mind in > Society), but he defined his own paradigm using the term > "cultural-historical". To me, "sociocultural" is somehow still in > wholesale fashion - maybe it should move out and become something which > would epitomise "cultural-historical"? > > For years I've been taking "sociocultural" and "cultural-historical" to be > customary terms. However, this doesn't stop me being "ruminant" (here I > borrow David's word portraying the SFL mindset) about the essence of these > terms, albeit seldom reaching anything with satisfaction. At times I find > myself concluding that three entities - social, cultural and historical - > form an indispensable core of human existence. I know this is no more than > stating the obvious! > > More to the point, the way I see it is that "social" is enmeshed with > "cultural" and "sociocultural" as a whole is entangled with itself in > itself - this entanglement is perhaps the essence of the term. But the > problem is that these two entities intertwine in a complex whole that > appears to be simultaneously "social" and "cultural" in an ambiguous > way. Anyway, > on a positive note, this is perhaps ambiguity par excellence, as Emmanuel > Levinas would say! Or perhaps Umberto Eco's "unlimited semiosis"! > > > James > > *_____________________________________* > > *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa > * > > > > On 26 June 2017 at 16:53, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > The inclusion of "historical" is quite loaded, James, marking the Soviet > > heritage of CHAT, and rejected by those who regard the inclusion of > > "historical" as a modern arrogance based on notions of social progress. > > Personally, I like "historical" while I reject the notion of cultural > > totalities which can be ordered unproblematically, whether > chronologically > > or otherwise. > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 26/06/2017 6:19 PM, James Ma wrote: > > > >> Hello David, I have an applied linguistics background too. My first > >> acquaintance with the term "sociocultural" was in the work of H Stern > who > >> described sociocultural factors in language learning and teaching. I do > >> feel a bit strange that "sociocultural" appears to be interchangeable > >> with "cultural-historical" when people talk about Vygotsky and his > >> followers. > >> > >> James > >> > >> > >> *_________________________________________________________* > >> > >> *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa > >> * > >> > >> > >> > >> On 25 June 2017 at 23:09, David Kellogg wrote: > >> > >> A few years ago there was a minor theoretical kerfuffle at the > >>> International Congress of Systemic Functional Linguistics in Vancouver. > >>> Systemic Functional Linguists tend to be gentle, ruminant creatures, > who > >>> frown on intellectual prize fighting (building "vertical" intellectual > >>> structures, like building chemistry on physics and biology on > chemistry, > >>> is > >>> the goal rather than building "horizontal" knowledge structures like > >>> competing fields of sociology, psychology, cognitive science). But they > >>> also prize delicacy and like to make fine distinctions that account > >>> exhaustively for data (e.g. vocabulary is treated as nothing but most > >>> delicate grammar, and grammar as most general forms of vocabulary, > hence > >>> the use of "words" for the latter and "wording" for the former). > >>> > >>> Accounting exhaustively for language as a social-semiotic phenomenon > >>> usually involves a delicate distinction between the social and the > >>> semiotic, something like the distinction between physics and chemistry > on > >>> the one hand and biology on the other. But Jim Martin argued that > >>> semiotic > >>> activity does not occur independent of social activity and vice versa, > >>> so, > >>> by Occam's razor, the terms are redundant and the hyphen superfluous. > >>> Surely the distinction between social behavior and meaningful behavior > is > >>> nothing like the distinction between animate and inanimate, sentient > and > >>> non-sentient, carbon-based self-replicating matter and inorganic > >>> compounds. > >>> > >>> Yesterday, we went whale watching out of Sydney Harbour. The Southwest > >>> Pacitic humpback community, which numbers between thirty and forty > >>> thousand, spends the summer (that is, your winter) months in Antarctica > >>> feeding on krill and small fish; they have an ingenious method of > feeding > >>> called bubble-netting which takes about 27 years for a whale to learn. > >>> It's > >>> a lot like Leontiev's description of a primitive hunt: twelve whales > work > >>> together to emit a circle of small bubbles encircling the prey, and > >>> gradually shaping it into a tall cylinder about thirty metres in > >>> diameter. > >>> When the krill kill is shaped in this way, the dinner table is set. The > >>> whales just sluice up and down through the cylinder with their baleen > >>> plates agape, raking in thousands of fish and/or tiny crustaceans with > >>> each > >>> pass. > >>> > >>> But then they embark on the road trip which brings them past Sydney > >>> Harbour > >>> and to points further north. The migration lasts many months, during > >>> which > >>> the whales do not eat at all. Even mothers, who have to produce about > 40 > >>> litres of whale milk daily, fast the whole six months. I noticed that > the > >>> whales we saw were always in groups of two or three and I wondered to > the > >>> marine biologist on board if whales worked in small communities in > >>> Antarctica but then went on holidays in nuclear families. She pointed > out > >>> that these dyads and triads were all the same size and gender. "They're > >>> just mates," she said. > >>> > >>> She also said that the study of whale songs is being > >>> "de-anthropmorphized": > >>> it was previously believed that since they vary much like languages, > with > >>> regional dialects and some "multilingualism", they must have an > economic > >>> function in feeding, a sexual function in mating, or a political > function > >>> in establishing male dominance (no easy feat, because females are > >>> polyandrous and rather larger than males). None of this is the case: > >>> whales > >>> sing when they aren't feeding, when they aren't mating, and when they > >>> aren't fighting: they just like to sing. And in fact the four-tone > songs > >>> vary more like pop-tunes than like regional dialects or functional > >>> registers. > >>> > >>> Now, when the kerfuffle broke out between Halliday and Martin in > >>> Vancouver, > >>> Halliday pointed to ants as a species who were social but not semiotic > >>> (there is no reason to believe that "meaning" as distinct from > molecular > >>> biology is at stake). You might think the Southwest Pacific humpback > >>> community is a good counter example, since they clearly have both > social > >>> and semiotic activity. But it seems to me exactly the opposite: they > are > >>> a > >>> clear example that social activity is goal oriented in one way, and > >>> semiotic activity is goal oriented in quite a different way. I have > never > >>> liked using the term socio-cultural to describe Vygotsky's theory (it > is > >>> the term generally used in my own field of applied linguistics) > because I > >>> thought it was redundant; now I am not so sure. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> David Kellogg > >>> Macquarie University > >>> > >>> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: > >>> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with > >>> Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" > >>> > >>> Free Chapters Downloadable at: > >>> > >>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great- > >>> globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf > >>> > >>> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some > >>> Ruminations > >>> on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children > >>> > >>> Free E-print Downloadable at: > >>> > >>> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full > >>> > >>> > >> > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 15:03:35 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 07:03:35 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> Message-ID: Last year at this time, Greg Thompson and I were teaching a bunch of Brigham Young University undergraduates how to do classroom observation. This was part of a "field school" which usually focuses on the usual meat and potatoes of anthropology (i.e. subsistence agriculture or hunting and gathering) but which under Greg's inspired leadership has become relocated and re-situated: re-oriented towards societies like South Korea which can, in important ways, appear to corn-fed American girls and boys as more urbanized, more complex, and more sophisticated than their own. I thought, and I still think, that this was a brilliant move; trying to create a generation of anthropologists who really do not subscribe to the "progress hypothesis" that Andy is talking about, not even in their selection of a site for research. But there was a real problem, and it is related to the issue that James brought in. Language. Only about half of the BYU undergraduates had any Korean at all. This meant that observation tended to focus on activities where language was (to use Halliday's term) "ancillary" rather than "constitutive". For example, when children get into scuffles, or a teacher administers corporal punishment, or a group of hunter gatherers launches a surprise attack on another in order to wipe it out, language accompanies the activity as it must all human activity, but it only helps out; it never constitutes the whole of the activity, and one could make sense of the activity simply by taking in iconic and indexical forms of semiosis. But if a teacher explains rules for long division, or children present a report on how a market works, or a group of hunter-gatherers pass on creation stories, language does not simply go along with the activity: it makes up the activity as its sine qua non. Underneath the practical problem of trying to get our undergraduates to see beyond language-ancillary activities, there was a theoretical problem. I had a hard time understanding the foundational difference between sociology and anthropology, once we take away the idea of a historical distinction between primitive and complex societies. For Greg the distinction really didn't matter: sociology and anthropology were simply two approaches to one and the same "science of a unitary whole", namely the study of (Korean classroom) culture. But I tried (and am still trying) to replace the historical distinction between sociology and anthropology with sociological approaches that focus on quantifiable behaviors in which language is ancillary and cultural approaches in which language is constitutive. In Halliday, meaning and matter are always two ways of looking at the same thing: even a physical phenomenon such as entropy can be studied as information as well as studied as substance. This is because for Halliday, meaning is simply a property of organized matter. But there's a tradeoff, just as there is in language: some linguistic phenomena (e.g. tense) are better treated as grammar and some (e.g. hyphenation) as vocabulary, although it is always possible to do things the other way around, since "grammar words" like "~ed" and "wordy words" like "egg" are on a continuum we systemicists call "wording" or "lexicogrammar". In the same way, some phenomena, like physics, are better treated as matter-first and other phenomena like language are better treated as meaning-first. A while ago, Andy made the exquisite point that no matter what activity we seize upon as being specific to humans, we will always find rudiments of that activity in non-human animals, because if we have selected the exact activity that historically resulted in anthropogenesis, it must have had pre-human roots. Vygotsky sought and found those pre-human roots in chimpanzees, for obvious reasons: they are morphologically similar to us, and live in a similar environment. But for precisely that reason, researchers focused on the social activities chimps use to produce their conditions of existence and assimilated the cultural, semiotic activities to these--this tendency is, I think, the source of what Andy has pinpointed as the "objectivist" fallacy in Leontiev's work. Yet right outside the station at Tenerife where Kohler was providing the raw material for Vygotsky's studies, there were humpback whales on long road trips where semiosis was constitutive rather than ancillary, the genetic roots of semiotic culture rather than simply directed towards the social reproduction of the conditions of existence. David Kellogg Macquarie University "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" Free Chapters Downloadable at: https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children Free E-print Downloadable at: On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 2:56 AM, mike cole wrote: > Could someone in this discussion explain to me the relationship between > social-semiotics and the sounds of whales which David used as the > springboard to the comments about socio ? cultural. > > It appears to be clear to all of you, but it is not at all clear to me! The > question of the ways that different people have referred to the Vygotsky- > inspired theorizing has been discussed a fair number of times here on > xmca and I would be happy to re-visit it. But David was (I thought) > seriously linking the early and late parts of his note and I could not > follow > it into the recent notes. > > Guidance much appreciated. > mike > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:28 AM, James Ma wrote: > > > Thanks Andy, your personal take on is very interesting - perhaps you > could > > enlighten me on your point? > > > > Larry, such strangeness has much to do with the vagueness of > > "sociocultural" reflected in sociocultural theory itself. Although my > > current work focuses on Peirce and Vygotsky, the Hallidayan imagery is > > always saliently present in my mind. Halliday is explicitly > > sociocultural. Vygotsky used this term to refer to the higher > > psychological functions as "sociocultural" in origin (e.g. p. 46 in Mind > in > > Society), but he defined his own paradigm using the term > > "cultural-historical". To me, "sociocultural" is somehow still in > > wholesale fashion - maybe it should move out and become something which > > would epitomise "cultural-historical"? > > > > For years I've been taking "sociocultural" and "cultural-historical" to > be > > customary terms. However, this doesn't stop me being "ruminant" (here I > > borrow David's word portraying the SFL mindset) about the essence of > these > > terms, albeit seldom reaching anything with satisfaction. At times I > find > > myself concluding that three entities - social, cultural and historical - > > form an indispensable core of human existence. I know this is no more > than > > stating the obvious! > > > > More to the point, the way I see it is that "social" is enmeshed with > > "cultural" and "sociocultural" as a whole is entangled with itself in > > itself - this entanglement is perhaps the essence of the term. But the > > problem is that these two entities intertwine in a complex whole that > > appears to be simultaneously "social" and "cultural" in an ambiguous > > way. Anyway, > > on a positive note, this is perhaps ambiguity par excellence, as Emmanuel > > Levinas would say! Or perhaps Umberto Eco's "unlimited semiosis"! > > > > > > James > > > > *_____________________________________* > > > > *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa > > * > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2017 at 16:53, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > The inclusion of "historical" is quite loaded, James, marking the > Soviet > > > heritage of CHAT, and rejected by those who regard the inclusion of > > > "historical" as a modern arrogance based on notions of social progress. > > > Personally, I like "historical" while I reject the notion of cultural > > > totalities which can be ordered unproblematically, whether > > chronologically > > > or otherwise. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Andy Blunden > > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > On 26/06/2017 6:19 PM, James Ma wrote: > > > > > >> Hello David, I have an applied linguistics background too. My first > > >> acquaintance with the term "sociocultural" was in the work of H Stern > > who > > >> described sociocultural factors in language learning and teaching. I > do > > >> feel a bit strange that "sociocultural" appears to be interchangeable > > >> with "cultural-historical" when people talk about Vygotsky and his > > >> followers. > > >> > > >> James > > >> > > >> > > >> *_________________________________________________________* > > >> > > >> *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa > > >> * > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 25 June 2017 at 23:09, David Kellogg wrote: > > >> > > >> A few years ago there was a minor theoretical kerfuffle at the > > >>> International Congress of Systemic Functional Linguistics in > Vancouver. > > >>> Systemic Functional Linguists tend to be gentle, ruminant creatures, > > who > > >>> frown on intellectual prize fighting (building "vertical" > intellectual > > >>> structures, like building chemistry on physics and biology on > > chemistry, > > >>> is > > >>> the goal rather than building "horizontal" knowledge structures like > > >>> competing fields of sociology, psychology, cognitive science). But > they > > >>> also prize delicacy and like to make fine distinctions that account > > >>> exhaustively for data (e.g. vocabulary is treated as nothing but most > > >>> delicate grammar, and grammar as most general forms of vocabulary, > > hence > > >>> the use of "words" for the latter and "wording" for the former). > > >>> > > >>> Accounting exhaustively for language as a social-semiotic phenomenon > > >>> usually involves a delicate distinction between the social and the > > >>> semiotic, something like the distinction between physics and > chemistry > > on > > >>> the one hand and biology on the other. But Jim Martin argued that > > >>> semiotic > > >>> activity does not occur independent of social activity and vice > versa, > > >>> so, > > >>> by Occam's razor, the terms are redundant and the hyphen superfluous. > > >>> Surely the distinction between social behavior and meaningful > behavior > > is > > >>> nothing like the distinction between animate and inanimate, sentient > > and > > >>> non-sentient, carbon-based self-replicating matter and inorganic > > >>> compounds. > > >>> > > >>> Yesterday, we went whale watching out of Sydney Harbour. The > Southwest > > >>> Pacitic humpback community, which numbers between thirty and forty > > >>> thousand, spends the summer (that is, your winter) months in > Antarctica > > >>> feeding on krill and small fish; they have an ingenious method of > > feeding > > >>> called bubble-netting which takes about 27 years for a whale to > learn. > > >>> It's > > >>> a lot like Leontiev's description of a primitive hunt: twelve whales > > work > > >>> together to emit a circle of small bubbles encircling the prey, and > > >>> gradually shaping it into a tall cylinder about thirty metres in > > >>> diameter. > > >>> When the krill kill is shaped in this way, the dinner table is set. > The > > >>> whales just sluice up and down through the cylinder with their baleen > > >>> plates agape, raking in thousands of fish and/or tiny crustaceans > with > > >>> each > > >>> pass. > > >>> > > >>> But then they embark on the road trip which brings them past Sydney > > >>> Harbour > > >>> and to points further north. The migration lasts many months, during > > >>> which > > >>> the whales do not eat at all. Even mothers, who have to produce about > > 40 > > >>> litres of whale milk daily, fast the whole six months. I noticed that > > the > > >>> whales we saw were always in groups of two or three and I wondered to > > the > > >>> marine biologist on board if whales worked in small communities in > > >>> Antarctica but then went on holidays in nuclear families. She pointed > > out > > >>> that these dyads and triads were all the same size and gender. > "They're > > >>> just mates," she said. > > >>> > > >>> She also said that the study of whale songs is being > > >>> "de-anthropmorphized": > > >>> it was previously believed that since they vary much like languages, > > with > > >>> regional dialects and some "multilingualism", they must have an > > economic > > >>> function in feeding, a sexual function in mating, or a political > > function > > >>> in establishing male dominance (no easy feat, because females are > > >>> polyandrous and rather larger than males). None of this is the case: > > >>> whales > > >>> sing when they aren't feeding, when they aren't mating, and when they > > >>> aren't fighting: they just like to sing. And in fact the four-tone > > songs > > >>> vary more like pop-tunes than like regional dialects or functional > > >>> registers. > > >>> > > >>> Now, when the kerfuffle broke out between Halliday and Martin in > > >>> Vancouver, > > >>> Halliday pointed to ants as a species who were social but not > semiotic > > >>> (there is no reason to believe that "meaning" as distinct from > > molecular > > >>> biology is at stake). You might think the Southwest Pacific humpback > > >>> community is a good counter example, since they clearly have both > > social > > >>> and semiotic activity. But it seems to me exactly the opposite: they > > are > > >>> a > > >>> clear example that social activity is goal oriented in one way, and > > >>> semiotic activity is goal oriented in quite a different way. I have > > never > > >>> liked using the term socio-cultural to describe Vygotsky's theory (it > > is > > >>> the term generally used in my own field of applied linguistics) > > because I > > >>> thought it was redundant; now I am not so sure. > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> David Kellogg > > >>> Macquarie University > > >>> > > >>> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: > > >>> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with > > >>> Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" > > >>> > > >>> Free Chapters Downloadable at: > > >>> > > >>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great- > > >>> globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf > > >>> > > >>> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some > > >>> Ruminations > > >>> on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children > > >>> > > >>> Free E-print Downloadable at: > > >>> > > >>> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jun 27 19:24:18 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 12:24:18 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> Message-ID: I'm not sure I completely understand your response, James. My point about the difference between the CHAT and S-C labels is not a personal view, it is thoroughly embedded in the respective research communities. My point about "progress" is also not really my own either, but my particular take on the problem I owe directly to Sylvia Scribner. *Totalities* cannot be ordered, hierarchically, chronologically or otherwise. But any feature abstracted from a totality which can be quantified self-evidently *can* be ordered. For example, I may not think that US society is *better* than Puerto Rican society (totalities) but I may well think that the US is a better place for me to earn a living, or vice versa. I might not think that Australia is altogether a better country than it was in my parents' day, but I can say that it is more tolerant and more diverse and has a larger population. We practically compare, and therefore order, in this way every moment of our lives. The problem with "progress" is that it compares totalities, which are always mutlifaceted and problematic. Do those clarifications help, James? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 28/06/2017 3:28 AM, James Ma wrote: > > Thanks Andy, your personal take on is very interesting - > perhaps you could enlighten me on your point? > > Larry, such strangeness has much to do with the vagueness > of "sociocultural" reflected in sociocultural theory > itself. Although my current work focuses on Peirce and > Vygotsky, the Hallidayan imagery is always saliently > present in my mind. Halliday is explicitly > sociocultural. Vygotsky used this term to refer to the > higher psychological functions as "sociocultural" in > origin (e.g. p. 46 in Mind in Society), but he defined his > own paradigm using the term "cultural-historical". To me, > "sociocultural" is somehow still in wholesale fashion - > maybe it should move out and become something which would > epitomise "cultural-historical"? > > For years I've been taking"sociocultural" and > "cultural-historical" to be customary terms. However, > this doesn't stop me being "ruminant" (here I borrow > David's word portraying the SFL mindset) about the essence > of these terms, albeit seldom reaching anything with > satisfaction. At times I find myself concluding that > three entities - social, cultural and historical - form an > indispensable core of human existence. I know this is no > more than stating the obvious! > > More to the point, the way I see it is that "social" is > enmeshed with "cultural" and "sociocultural" as a whole is > entangled with itself in itself - this entanglement is > perhaps the essence of the term. But the problem is that > these two entities intertwine in a complex whole that > appears to be simultaneously "social" and "cultural" in an > ambiguous way. Anyway, on a positive note, this is perhaps > ambiguity par excellence, as Emmanuel Levinas would say! > Or perhaps Umberto Eco's "unlimited semiosis"! > > > James > > /_____________________________________/ > > */James Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/ > > > > On 26 June 2017 at 16:53, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > The inclusion of "historical" is quite loaded, James, > marking the Soviet heritage of CHAT, and rejected by > those who regard the inclusion of "historical" as a > modern arrogance based on notions of social progress. > Personally, I like "historical" while I reject the > notion of cultural totalities which can be ordered > unproblematically, whether chronologically or otherwise. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > On 26/06/2017 6:19 PM, James Ma wrote: > > Hello David, I have an applied linguistics > background too. My first > acquaintance with the term "sociocultural" was in > the work of H Stern who > described sociocultural factors in language > learning and teaching. I do > feel a bit strange that "sociocultural" appears to > be interchangeable > with "cultural-historical" when people talk about > Vygotsky and his > followers. > > James > > > *_________________________________________________________* > > *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa > > >* > > > > On 25 June 2017 at 23:09, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > A few years ago there was a minor theoretical > kerfuffle at the > International Congress of Systemic Functional > Linguistics in Vancouver. > Systemic Functional Linguists tend to be > gentle, ruminant creatures, who > frown on intellectual prize fighting (building > "vertical" intellectual > structures, like building chemistry on physics > and biology on chemistry, is > the goal rather than building "horizontal" > knowledge structures like > competing fields of sociology, psychology, > cognitive science). But they > also prize delicacy and like to make fine > distinctions that account > exhaustively for data (e.g. vocabulary is > treated as nothing but most > delicate grammar, and grammar as most general > forms of vocabulary, hence > the use of "words" for the latter and > "wording" for the former). > > Accounting exhaustively for language as a > social-semiotic phenomenon > usually involves a delicate distinction > between the social and the > semiotic, something like the distinction > between physics and chemistry on > the one hand and biology on the other. But Jim > Martin argued that semiotic > activity does not occur independent of social > activity and vice versa, so, > by Occam's razor, the terms are redundant and > the hyphen superfluous. > Surely the distinction between social behavior > and meaningful behavior is > nothing like the distinction between animate > and inanimate, sentient and > non-sentient, carbon-based self-replicating > matter and inorganic compounds. > > Yesterday, we went whale watching out of > Sydney Harbour. The Southwest > Pacitic humpback community, which numbers > between thirty and forty > thousand, spends the summer (that is, your > winter) months in Antarctica > feeding on krill and small fish; they have an > ingenious method of feeding > called bubble-netting which takes about 27 > years for a whale to learn. It's > a lot like Leontiev's description of a > primitive hunt: twelve whales work > together to emit a circle of small bubbles > encircling the prey, and > gradually shaping it into a tall cylinder > about thirty metres in diameter. > When the krill kill is shaped in this way, the > dinner table is set. The > whales just sluice up and down through the > cylinder with their baleen > plates agape, raking in thousands of fish > and/or tiny crustaceans with each > pass. > > But then they embark on the road trip which > brings them past Sydney Harbour > and to points further north. The migration > lasts many months, during which > the whales do not eat at all. Even mothers, > who have to produce about 40 > litres of whale milk daily, fast the whole six > months. I noticed that the > whales we saw were always in groups of two or > three and I wondered to the > marine biologist on board if whales worked in > small communities in > Antarctica but then went on holidays in > nuclear families. She pointed out > that these dyads and triads were all the same > size and gender. "They're > just mates," she said. > > She also said that the study of whale songs is > being "de-anthropmorphized": > it was previously believed that since they > vary much like languages, with > regional dialects and some "multilingualism", > they must have an economic > function in feeding, a sexual function in > mating, or a political function > in establishing male dominance (no easy feat, > because females are > polyandrous and rather larger than males). > None of this is the case: whales > sing when they aren't feeding, when they > aren't mating, and when they > aren't fighting: they just like to sing. And > in fact the four-tone songs > vary more like pop-tunes than like regional > dialects or functional > registers. > > Now, when the kerfuffle broke out between > Halliday and Martin in Vancouver, > Halliday pointed to ants as a species who were > social but not semiotic > (there is no reason to believe that "meaning" > as distinct from molecular > biology is at stake). You might think the > Southwest Pacific humpback > community is a good counter example, since > they clearly have both social > and semiotic activity. But it seems to me > exactly the opposite: they are a > clear example that social activity is goal > oriented in one way, and > semiotic activity is goal oriented in quite a > different way. I have never > liked using the term socio-cultural to > describe Vygotsky's theory (it is > the term generally used in my own field of > applied linguistics) because I > thought it was redundant; now I am not so sure. > > -- > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: > Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with > Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" > > Free Chapters Downloadable at: > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great- > > globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf > > Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, > Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations > on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children > > Free E-print Downloadable at: > > http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full > > > > > From jamesma320@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 23:35:45 2017 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 07:35:45 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> Message-ID: Many thanks Andy, you've elaborated for me - that's really helpful. I'm always interested in the genealogy or ontogenesis of theoretical concepts and ideas (especially those relating to my field). Regarding Vygotsky-inspired theorising (Mike mentioned), it is clear that neo-Vygotskyan theorists create their own terms rather than use Vygotsky's directly (they tend to appropriate Vygotsky's for their own purposes). By the way, in England, the research centre associated with Harry Daniels has always been "sociocultural", now located at Oxford, named OSAT (Oxford Centre for Sociocultural and Activity Theory Research). I guess "sociocultural" here is a more inclusive usage. James *_____________________________________* *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa * On 28 June 2017 at 03:24, Andy Blunden wrote: > I'm not sure I completely understand your response, James. My point about > the difference between the CHAT and S-C labels is not a personal view, it > is thoroughly embedded in the respective research communities. My point > about "progress" is also not really my own either, but my particular take > on the problem I owe directly to Sylvia Scribner. *Totalities* cannot be > ordered, hierarchically, chronologically or otherwise. But any feature > abstracted from a totality which can be quantified self-evidently *can* be > ordered. For example, I may not think that US society is *better* than > Puerto Rican society (totalities) but I may well think that the US is a > better place for me to earn a living, or vice versa. I might not think that > Australia is altogether a better country than it was in my parents' day, > but I can say that it is more tolerant and more diverse and has a larger > population. We practically compare, and therefore order, in this way every > moment of our lives. The problem with "progress" is that it compares > totalities, which are always mutlifaceted and problematic. > > Do those clarifications help, James? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 28/06/2017 3:28 AM, James Ma wrote: > >> >> Thanks Andy, your personal take on is very interesting - perhaps you >> could enlighten me on your point? >> >> Larry, such strangeness has much to do with the vagueness of >> "sociocultural" reflected in sociocultural theory itself. Although my >> current work focuses on Peirce and Vygotsky, the Hallidayan imagery is >> always saliently present in my mind. Halliday is explicitly >> sociocultural. Vygotsky used this term to refer to the higher >> psychological functions as "sociocultural" in origin (e.g. p. 46 in Mind in >> Society), but he defined his own paradigm using the term >> "cultural-historical". To me, "sociocultural" is somehow still in wholesale >> fashion - maybe it should move out and become something which would >> epitomise "cultural-historical"? >> >> For years I've been taking"sociocultural" and "cultural-historical" to be >> customary terms. However, this doesn't stop me being "ruminant" (here I >> borrow David's word portraying the SFL mindset) about the essence of these >> terms, albeit seldom reaching anything with satisfaction. At times I find >> myself concluding that three entities - social, cultural and historical - >> form an indispensable core of human existence. I know this is no more than >> stating the obvious! >> >> More to the point, the way I see it is that "social" is enmeshed with >> "cultural" and "sociocultural" as a whole is entangled with itself in >> itself - this entanglement is perhaps the essence of the term. But the >> problem is that these two entities intertwine in a complex whole that >> appears to be simultaneously "social" and "cultural" in an ambiguous way. >> Anyway, on a positive note, this is perhaps ambiguity par excellence, as >> Emmanuel Levinas would say! Or perhaps Umberto Eco's "unlimited semiosis"! >> >> >> James >> >> /_____________________________________/ >> >> */James Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/ >> >> >> >> On 26 June 2017 at 16:53, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> The inclusion of "historical" is quite loaded, James, >> marking the Soviet heritage of CHAT, and rejected by >> those who regard the inclusion of "historical" as a >> modern arrogance based on notions of social progress. >> Personally, I like "historical" while I reject the >> notion of cultural totalities which can be ordered >> unproblematically, whether chronologically or otherwise. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> > decision-making> >> >> On 26/06/2017 6:19 PM, James Ma wrote: >> >> Hello David, I have an applied linguistics >> background too. My first >> acquaintance with the term "sociocultural" was in >> the work of H Stern who >> described sociocultural factors in language >> learning and teaching. I do >> feel a bit strange that "sociocultural" appears to >> be interchangeable >> with "cultural-historical" when people talk about >> Vygotsky and his >> followers. >> >> James >> >> >> *_________________________________________________________* >> >> *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa >> >> > >* >> >> >> >> On 25 June 2017 at 23:09, David Kellogg >> > > wrote: >> >> A few years ago there was a minor theoretical >> kerfuffle at the >> International Congress of Systemic Functional >> Linguistics in Vancouver. >> Systemic Functional Linguists tend to be >> gentle, ruminant creatures, who >> frown on intellectual prize fighting (building >> "vertical" intellectual >> structures, like building chemistry on physics >> and biology on chemistry, is >> the goal rather than building "horizontal" >> knowledge structures like >> competing fields of sociology, psychology, >> cognitive science). But they >> also prize delicacy and like to make fine >> distinctions that account >> exhaustively for data (e.g. vocabulary is >> treated as nothing but most >> delicate grammar, and grammar as most general >> forms of vocabulary, hence >> the use of "words" for the latter and >> "wording" for the former). >> >> Accounting exhaustively for language as a >> social-semiotic phenomenon >> usually involves a delicate distinction >> between the social and the >> semiotic, something like the distinction >> between physics and chemistry on >> the one hand and biology on the other. But Jim >> Martin argued that semiotic >> activity does not occur independent of social >> activity and vice versa, so, >> by Occam's razor, the terms are redundant and >> the hyphen superfluous. >> Surely the distinction between social behavior >> and meaningful behavior is >> nothing like the distinction between animate >> and inanimate, sentient and >> non-sentient, carbon-based self-replicating >> matter and inorganic compounds. >> >> Yesterday, we went whale watching out of >> Sydney Harbour. The Southwest >> Pacitic humpback community, which numbers >> between thirty and forty >> thousand, spends the summer (that is, your >> winter) months in Antarctica >> feeding on krill and small fish; they have an >> ingenious method of feeding >> called bubble-netting which takes about 27 >> years for a whale to learn. It's >> a lot like Leontiev's description of a >> primitive hunt: twelve whales work >> together to emit a circle of small bubbles >> encircling the prey, and >> gradually shaping it into a tall cylinder >> about thirty metres in diameter. >> When the krill kill is shaped in this way, the >> dinner table is set. The >> whales just sluice up and down through the >> cylinder with their baleen >> plates agape, raking in thousands of fish >> and/or tiny crustaceans with each >> pass. >> >> But then they embark on the road trip which >> brings them past Sydney Harbour >> and to points further north. The migration >> lasts many months, during which >> the whales do not eat at all. Even mothers, >> who have to produce about 40 >> litres of whale milk daily, fast the whole six >> months. I noticed that the >> whales we saw were always in groups of two or >> three and I wondered to the >> marine biologist on board if whales worked in >> small communities in >> Antarctica but then went on holidays in >> nuclear families. She pointed out >> that these dyads and triads were all the same >> size and gender. "They're >> just mates," she said. >> >> She also said that the study of whale songs is >> being "de-anthropmorphized": >> it was previously believed that since they >> vary much like languages, with >> regional dialects and some "multilingualism", >> they must have an economic >> function in feeding, a sexual function in >> mating, or a political function >> in establishing male dominance (no easy feat, >> because females are >> polyandrous and rather larger than males). >> None of this is the case: whales >> sing when they aren't feeding, when they >> aren't mating, and when they >> aren't fighting: they just like to sing. And >> in fact the four-tone songs >> vary more like pop-tunes than like regional >> dialects or functional >> registers. >> >> Now, when the kerfuffle broke out between >> Halliday and Martin in Vancouver, >> Halliday pointed to ants as a species who were >> social but not semiotic >> (there is no reason to believe that "meaning" >> as distinct from molecular >> biology is at stake). You might think the >> Southwest Pacific humpback >> community is a good counter example, since >> they clearly have both social >> and semiotic activity. But it seems to me >> exactly the opposite: they are a >> clear example that social activity is goal >> oriented in one way, and >> semiotic activity is goal oriented in quite a >> different way. I have never >> liked using the term socio-cultural to >> describe Vygotsky's theory (it is >> the term generally used in my own field of >> applied linguistics) because I >> thought it was redundant; now I am not so sure. >> >> -- >> David Kellogg >> Macquarie University >> >> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: >> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with >> Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" >> >> Free Chapters Downloadable at: >> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great- >> >> globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf >> >> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, >> Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations >> on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children >> >> Free E-print Downloadable at: >> >> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full >> >> >> >> >> >> > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 08:19:08 2017 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 09:19:08 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> Message-ID: <621C67B3-C735-4A8D-A1B5-D8169B36EA91@gmail.com> Here is a link to a text for which I find no author, but I found it enlightening in the context of the chat with constant collaborative efforts to determine what we mean when we communicate and how, despite the dialog?s endlessness, gets us somewhere because we collaborate and how we collaborate. If this short text is of any use to the subject line, please let me know. http://courses.logos.it/EN/2_20.html Henry > On Jun 27, 2017, at 8:24 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Eco's "unlimited semiosis" From ablunden@mira.net Wed Jun 28 08:34:02 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 01:34:02 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: <621C67B3-C735-4A8D-A1B5-D8169B36EA91@gmail.com> References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> <621C67B3-C735-4A8D-A1B5-D8169B36EA91@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have just been reading an article by Charles Taylor in which he refers to theories (plural) of signs formulated by Enlightenment philosophers, mentioning Condillac in particular. It never occurred to me that semiotics stretched back to the 18th century. I thought that Peirce invented it! Something new every day. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 29/06/2017 1:19 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Here is a link to a text for which I find no author, but I found it enlightening in the context of the chat with constant collaborative efforts to determine what we mean when we communicate and how, despite the dialog?s endlessness, gets us somewhere because we collaborate and how we collaborate. If this short text is of any use to the subject line, please let me know. > > http://courses.logos.it/EN/2_20.html > > Henry > > > >> On Jun 27, 2017, at 8:24 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Eco's "unlimited semiosis" > > From jamesma320@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 08:47:59 2017 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 16:47:59 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> <621C67B3-C735-4A8D-A1B5-D8169B36EA91@gmail.com> Message-ID: Could you forward the article to me, Andy? Thanks, James 2017?6?28? ??4:37?"Andy Blunden" ??? > I have just been reading an article by Charles Taylor in which he refers > to theories (plural) of signs formulated by Enlightenment philosophers, > mentioning Condillac in particular. It never occurred to me that semiotics > stretched back to the 18th century. I thought that Peirce invented it! > Something new every day. > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 29/06/2017 1:19 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Here is a link to a text for which I find no author, but I found it >> enlightening in the context of the chat with constant collaborative efforts >> to determine what we mean when we communicate and how, despite the dialog?s >> endlessness, gets us somewhere because we collaborate and how we >> collaborate. If this short text is of any use to the subject line, please >> let me know. >> >> http://courses.logos.it/EN/2_20.html > 20.html> >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> On Jun 27, 2017, at 8:24 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Eco's "unlimited semiosis" >>>> >>> >> >> > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 08:47:27 2017 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 09:47:27 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> <621C67B3-C735-4A8D-A1B5-D8169B36EA91@gmail.com> Message-ID: <58E61C19-03DC-403D-A63B-DA273DC4ACD3@gmail.com> Andy Something new, a nugget?Must be one of the main drivers of things like the gold rush in California. And this something new doesn?t drive just homo sapiens, n?est ce pas? I find it hard to believe in progress, but your post about what socio-cultural feature in particular we choose to focus on does make progress conceivable, even though the totality seems such a mess. Henry > On Jun 28, 2017, at 9:34 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I have just been reading an article by Charles Taylor in which he refers to theories (plural) of signs formulated by Enlightenment philosophers, mentioning Condillac in particular. It never occurred to me that semiotics stretched back to the 18th century. I thought that Peirce invented it! Something new every day. > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 29/06/2017 1:19 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> Here is a link to a text for which I find no author, but I found it enlightening in the context of the chat with constant collaborative efforts to determine what we mean when we communicate and how, despite the dialog?s endlessness, gets us somewhere because we collaborate and how we collaborate. If this short text is of any use to the subject line, please let me know. >> >> http://courses.logos.it/EN/2_20.html >> >> Henry >> >> >> >>> On Jun 27, 2017, at 8:24 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> Eco's "unlimited semiosis" >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Jun 28 09:00:37 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 02:00:37 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> <621C67B3-C735-4A8D-A1B5-D8169B36EA91@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm actually reading it in hard copy, James! It is a reprint of an article written in 1983 called "Hegel and the Philosophy of Action," and it is included in the volume "Hegel on Action" ed. Arto Laitinen and C. Sandis published by Palgrave Macmillan in 2010. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 29/06/2017 1:47 AM, James Ma wrote: > Could you forward the article to me, Andy? > Thanks, James > > 2017?6?28? ??4:37?"Andy Blunden" >??? > > I have just been reading an article by Charles Taylor > in which he refers to theories (plural) of signs > formulated by Enlightenment philosophers, mentioning > Condillac in particular. It never occurred to me that > semiotics stretched back to the 18th century. I > thought that Peirce invented it! Something new every day. > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > On 29/06/2017 1:19 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Here is a link to a text for which I find no > author, but I found it enlightening in the context > of the chat with constant collaborative efforts to > determine what we mean when we communicate and > how, despite the dialog?s endlessness, gets us > somewhere because we collaborate and how we > collaborate. If this short text is of any use to > the subject line, please let me know. > > http://courses.logos.it/EN/2_20.html > > > > > Henry > > > > On Jun 27, 2017, at 8:24 PM, Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > Eco's "unlimited semiosis" > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 11:06:12 2017 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 12:06:12 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> <621C67B3-C735-4A8D-A1B5-D8169B36EA91@gmail.com> Message-ID: Andy et al, Found this description of the key point of Taylor's essay. Seems very relevant. Here is a snippet of that summary: "Taylor maintains that the causal theory of action is inherently atomist, while the qualitative theory comprehends and includes actions that are irreducibly collective, in short *ours*, that cannot be reduced to or analyzed as a collection of actions that are *mine*. Finally, Taylor observes that for Hegel there is a crucial level of activity which is not only more than individual, but more than merely human. Some of what we do we can understand more deeply as the action of spirit through us. Thus we have to transcend our ordinary self-understanding. To the extent that our common-sense view of ourselves is atomist, we have to make two transpositions or decenterings: in the first we come to understand that some of our actions are those of communities; in the second we see that some are the work of spirit. The latter includes the individual, his community, and their relation to the divine." Andy, would Hegel use the term "the divine" or is this Taylor's (or this author's) term for something like Hegel's "Universal"? Full summary is here: http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/hegel-on-action/ -greg On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > I'm actually reading it in hard copy, James! > > It is a reprint of an article written in 1983 called "Hegel and the > Philosophy of Action," and it is included in the volume "Hegel on Action" > ed. Arto Laitinen and C. Sandis published by Palgrave Macmillan in 2010. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 29/06/2017 1:47 AM, James Ma wrote: > >> Could you forward the article to me, Andy? >> Thanks, James >> >> 2017?6?28? ??4:37?"Andy Blunden" > ablunden@mira.net>>??? >> >> I have just been reading an article by Charles Taylor >> in which he refers to theories (plural) of signs >> formulated by Enlightenment philosophers, mentioning >> Condillac in particular. It never occurred to me that >> semiotics stretched back to the 18th century. I >> thought that Peirce invented it! Something new every day. >> >> andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> > decision-making> >> >> On 29/06/2017 1:19 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >> Here is a link to a text for which I find no >> author, but I found it enlightening in the context >> of the chat with constant collaborative efforts to >> determine what we mean when we communicate and >> how, despite the dialog?s endlessness, gets us >> somewhere because we collaborate and how we >> collaborate. If this short text is of any use to >> the subject line, please let me know. >> >> http://courses.logos.it/EN/2_20.html >> >> > > >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> On Jun 27, 2017, at 8:24 PM, Andy Blunden >> > >> wrote: >> >> Eco's "unlimited semiosis" >> >> >> >> >> > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 14:08:41 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 06:08:41 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> <621C67B3-C735-4A8D-A1B5-D8169B36EA91@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, Condillac was a semiotician, but he wasn't a particularly good one. Like Smith, he was very taken with the idea that words were coins--they could be exchanged, hoarded, clipped and debased, replaced with promissory notes, and so on. It's really half an idea, not an idea. When you get a bright, shiny little analogy like that you should immediately think how words are NOT like coins, and then you have an idea. Words, unlike coins, are mainly use values not exchange values; they can't be hoarded in any physical form, the phonological forms may be "clipped" but this doesn't appear to debase the value in any way, and, unlike Kant's thalers, imaginary words seem to work as well as real ones. But the main difference for me is that coins do not beget other coins, or create moneto-genic chains. Capital does, of course, and here the analogy is much more exact. But understanding capital really required Marx. Marx turns out to be a hidden presence in a lot of linguistics (e.g. the distinction between use value and exchange value underlies Saussure's distinction between "signification" and "valeur"--Bloomfield is said to have remarked that Capital reads like a linguistics text.) Henry--thanks for the snippet on Peirce. I think there are two sources of confusion in it. First of all, Peirce uses "sign" for the whole triad, and "sign vehicle" for the element which conveys the idea of the ground to the intepretant. It's easy to conflate the two, particularly since a sign-triad can function as an element in another sign-triad. (The same thing happens when people read Saussure, and they imagine that a concept-image and/or a sound-image is a sign, when in theory it's only the relation between the two that is the sign.) I think, actually, that the idea of "unlimited semiosis" only arises because the social origins of the semiotic are being ignored. In general, once the social purpose of semiosis is achieved, the theoretically infinite chain of meaning is no longer interesting to the participants. What struck me, though, was the idea of semiosis for the sheer bloody fun of it all, which seems to happen even in whales. Of course, here too there is no "unlimited strip tease"--when talking stops being fun, even whales stop talking. David Kellogg Macquarie University "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" Free Chapters Downloadable at: https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children Free E-print Downloadable at: http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 3:06 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy et al, > Found this description of the key point of Taylor's essay. Seems very > relevant. Here is a snippet of that summary: > > "Taylor maintains that the causal theory of action is inherently atomist, > while the qualitative theory comprehends and includes actions that are > irreducibly collective, in short *ours*, that cannot be reduced to or > analyzed as a collection of actions that are *mine*. > Finally, Taylor observes that for Hegel there is a crucial level of > activity which is not only more than individual, but more than merely > human. Some of what we do we can understand more deeply as the action of > spirit through us. Thus we have to transcend our ordinary > self-understanding. To the extent that our common-sense view of ourselves > is atomist, we have to make two transpositions or decenterings: in the > first we come to understand that some of our actions are those of > communities; in the second we see that some are the work of spirit. The > latter includes the individual, his community, and their relation to the > divine." > > Andy, would Hegel use the term "the divine" or is this Taylor's (or this > author's) term for something like Hegel's "Universal"? > > Full summary is here: http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/hegel-on-action/ > > -greg > > On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > I'm actually reading it in hard copy, James! > > > > It is a reprint of an article written in 1983 called "Hegel and the > > Philosophy of Action," and it is included in the volume "Hegel on Action" > > ed. Arto Laitinen and C. Sandis published by Palgrave Macmillan in 2010. > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 29/06/2017 1:47 AM, James Ma wrote: > > > >> Could you forward the article to me, Andy? > >> Thanks, James > >> > >> 2017?6?28? ??4:37?"Andy Blunden" >> ablunden@mira.net>>??? > >> > >> I have just been reading an article by Charles Taylor > >> in which he refers to theories (plural) of signs > >> formulated by Enlightenment philosophers, mentioning > >> Condillac in particular. It never occurred to me that > >> semiotics stretched back to the 18th century. I > >> thought that Peirce invented it! Something new every day. > >> > >> andy > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Andy Blunden > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy > >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective- > decision-making > >> >> decision-making> > >> > >> On 29/06/2017 1:19 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> > >> Here is a link to a text for which I find no > >> author, but I found it enlightening in the context > >> of the chat with constant collaborative efforts to > >> determine what we mean when we communicate and > >> how, despite the dialog?s endlessness, gets us > >> somewhere because we collaborate and how we > >> collaborate. If this short text is of any use to > >> the subject line, please let me know. > >> > >> http://courses.logos.it/EN/2_20.html > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > >> > >> On Jun 27, 2017, at 8:24 PM, Andy Blunden > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >> Eco's "unlimited semiosis" > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Jun 28 19:35:10 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 12:35:10 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Social and the Semiotic In-Reply-To: References: <22fafa5f-a55b-2e8b-84a6-1e1998c17785@mira.net> <621C67B3-C735-4A8D-A1B5-D8169B36EA91@gmail.com> Message-ID: <573b2082-d595-245e-e2a3-aec17a8142d0@mira.net> It's an excellent essay, worth a read for anyone interested in CHAT. Taylor puts the thesis which I agree with, that the substance of Hegel's philosophy and the subject matter of his logic is human activity. This has always been the basis for my linking of Hegel, Marx and Vygotsky and Activity Theory. Robert Pippin's chapter in the same book is even better actually. And yes, Greg, Hegel would say "The Divine". That is not Taylor's own idea, it is Hegel's. The point that we 21st century readers have to keep in mind is that it is not a question of whether God exists but what is the nature of God. For example, as is well known, I think, Spinoza believed that God was Nature and all its attributes and substances including human life. Later readers interpreted Spinoza's conception of God as monistic materialism. And it is the same with Hegel. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 29/06/2017 4:06 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy et al, > Found this description of the key point of Taylor's essay. > Seems very relevant. Here is a snippet of that summary: > > "Taylor maintains that the causal theory of action is > inherently atomist, while the qualitative theory > comprehends and includes actions that are irreducibly > collective, in short/ours/, that cannot be reduced to or > analyzed as a collection of actions that are/mine/. > Finally, Taylor observes that for Hegel there is a crucial > level of activity which is not only more than individual, > but more than merely human. Some of what we do we can > understand more deeply as the action of spirit through us. > Thus we have to transcend our ordinary self-understanding. > To the extent that our common-sense view of ourselves is > atomist, we have to make two transpositions or > decenterings: in the first we come to understand that some > of our actions are those of communities; in the second we > see that some are the work of spirit. The latter includes > the individual, his community, and their relation to the > divine." > > Andy, would Hegel use the term "the divine" or is this > Taylor's (or this author's) term for something like > Hegel's "Universal"? > > Full summary is here: http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/hegel-on-action/ > > -greg > > On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > I'm actually reading it in hard copy, James! > > It is a reprint of an article written in 1983 called > "Hegel and the Philosophy of Action," and it is > included in the volume "Hegel on Action" ed. Arto > Laitinen and C. Sandis published by Palgrave Macmillan > in 2010. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > On 29/06/2017 1:47 AM, James Ma wrote: > > Could you forward the article to me, Andy? > Thanks, James > > 2017?6?28? ??4:37?"Andy Blunden" > > >>??? > > I have just been reading an article by Charles > Taylor > in which he refers to theories (plural) of signs > formulated by Enlightenment philosophers, > mentioning > Condillac in particular. It never occurred to > me that > semiotics stretched back to the 18th century. I > thought that Peirce invented it! Something new > every day. > > andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > > > > On 29/06/2017 1:19 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Here is a link to a text for which I find no > author, but I found it enlightening in the > context > of the chat with constant collaborative > efforts to > determine what we mean when we communicate and > how, despite the dialog?s endlessness, gets us > somewhere because we collaborate and how we > collaborate. If this short text is of any > use to > the subject line, please let me know. > > http://courses.logos.it/EN/2_20.html > > > > > >> > > Henry > > > > On Jun 27, 2017, at 8:24 PM, Andy Blunden > > >> > wrote: > > Eco's "unlimited semiosis" > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Thu Jun 29 02:27:16 2017 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=AAHaydi_Zulfei=E2=80=AC_=E2=80=AA?=) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 09:27:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Fw: Fw: In-Reply-To: References: <1082143443.1303033.1498681050941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1052327947.1796877.1498728436587@mail.yahoo.com> Dear all,I have it both in acrobat reader format and originally as djvu format. They both work for me but I don't know what's wrong with others' computers. I can also think that what's wrong is with my own computer. However , I again send the original djvu version which size is 3.43 MB. If someone is to put it to some use and if there's any worry as to the copyright problem , one can split it so that pages 22 to 79 are obtained containing three articles two of which are mentioned by Andy.Best?Haydi? ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: James Ma To: Haydi Zulfei Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 11:58:38 Subject: Re: Fw: Hi Haydi, unfortunately I still can't open it. Please could you send it to xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Many thanks, James ______________________________ _______James Ma? https://oxford.academia.edu/ JamesMa ? On 28 June 2017 at 21:17, wrote: Dear James,I converted the djvu version of the book into pdf but it exceeded 25 megabyte . I tried other ways but apparently I didn't succeed. Now this is the original djvu version. I hope it can reach you so that you can convert it there your selves. I like to hear you about the solution.Best wishesHaydi ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Farhad Moezzipour To: Haydi Zulfei Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 0:39:21 Subject: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Arto Laitinen, Constantine Sandis-Hegel on Action-Palgrave Macmillan (2010) (1).djvu Type: application/octet-stream Size: 3600655 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20170629/9a65550b/attachment-0001.obj From ablunden@mira.net Thu Jun 29 03:15:55 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 20:15:55 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fw: Fw: In-Reply-To: <1052327947.1796877.1498728436587@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1082143443.1303033.1498681050941@mail.yahoo.com> <1052327947.1796877.1498728436587@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Haydi! I can open the book in DjVU fine, but perhaps for the others you could send around 2 PDFs, one each ofr Taylor and Pippin? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 29/06/2017 7:27 PM, ?Haydi Zulfei? ? wrote: > Dear all,I have it both in acrobat reader format and originally as djvu format. They both work for me but I don't know what's wrong with others' computers. I can also think that what's wrong is with my own computer. However , I again send the original djvu version which size is 3.43 MB. If someone is to put it to some use and if there's any worry as to the copyright problem , one can split it so that pages 22 to 79 are obtained containing three articles two of which are mentioned by Andy.Best Haydi > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: James Ma > To: Haydi Zulfei > Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 11:58:38 > Subject: Re: Fw: > > Hi Haydi, unfortunately I still can't open it. Please could you send it to xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Many thanks, James > ______________________________ _______James Ma https://oxford.academia.edu/ JamesMa > > On 28 June 2017 at 21:17, wrote: > > Dear James,I converted the djvu version of the book into pdf but it exceeded 25 megabyte . I tried other ways but apparently I didn't succeed. Now this is the original djvu version. I hope it can reach you so that you can convert it there your selves. I like to hear you about the solution.Best wishesHaydi > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Farhad Moezzipour > To: Haydi Zulfei > Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 0:39:21 > Subject: > > > > > > > > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Thu Jun 29 03:29:47 2017 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 10:29:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fw: Fw: In-Reply-To: References: <1082143443.1303033.1498681050941@mail.yahoo.com> <1052327947.1796877.1498728436587@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I didn't have DjVU but downloaded it (free) from here https://sourceforge.net/projects/djvu/files/latest/download?source=files and it was very easy to install. Many thanks Haydi (and Andy) Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: 29 June 2017 11:16 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fw: Fw: Thanks Haydi! I can open the book in DjVU fine, but perhaps for the others you could send around 2 PDFs, one each ofr Taylor and Pippin? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 29/06/2017 7:27 PM, ?Haydi Zulfei? ? wrote: > Dear all,I have it both in acrobat reader format and originally as > djvu format. They both work for me but I don't know what's wrong with > others' computers. I can also think that what's wrong is with my own > computer. However , I again send the original djvu version which size > is 3.43 MB. If someone is to put it to some use and if there's any > worry as to the copyright problem , one can split it so that pages 22 > to 79 are obtained containing three articles two of which are > mentioned by Andy.Best Haydi > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: James Ma > To: Haydi Zulfei > Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 11:58:38 > Subject: Re: Fw: > > Hi Haydi, unfortunately I still can't open it. Please could you send > it to xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Many thanks, James > ______________________________ _______James Ma > https://oxford.academia.edu/ JamesMa > > On 28 June 2017 at 21:17, wrote: > > Dear James,I converted the djvu version of the book into pdf but it > exceeded 25 megabyte . I tried other ways but apparently I didn't > succeed. Now this is the original djvu version. I hope it can reach > you so that you can convert it there your selves. I like to hear you > about the solution.Best wishesHaydi > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Farhad Moezzipour > To: Haydi Zulfei > Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 0:39:21 > Subject: > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From ablunden@mira.net Fri Jun 30 00:40:31 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 17:40:31 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fw: Fw: In-Reply-To: References: <1082143443.1303033.1498681050941@mail.yahoo.com> <1052327947.1796877.1498728436587@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40809cb3-f99e-1a14-c285-b06676469ca9@mira.net> Actually, the article by Aliasdair MacIntyre is also very good, and is relevant to James' question about the H in CHAT. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 29/06/2017 8:15 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Thanks Haydi! I can open the book in DjVU fine, but > perhaps for the others you could send around 2 PDFs, one > each ofr Taylor and Pippin? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 29/06/2017 7:27 PM, ?Haydi Zulfei? ? wrote: >> Dear all,I have it both in acrobat reader format and >> originally as djvu format. They both work for me but I >> don't know what's wrong with others' computers. I can >> also think that what's wrong is with my own computer. >> However , I again send the original djvu version which >> size is 3.43 MB. If someone is to put it to some use and >> if there's any worry as to the copyright problem , one >> can split it so that pages 22 to 79 are obtained >> containing three articles two of which are mentioned by >> Andy.Best Haydi >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >> From: James Ma >> To: Haydi Zulfei >> Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 11:58:38 >> Subject: Re: Fw: >> Hi Haydi, unfortunately I still can't open it. Please >> could you send it to xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> Many thanks, James >> ______________________________ _______James Ma >> https://oxford.academia.edu/ JamesMa >> >> On 28 June 2017 at 21:17, >> wrote: >> >> Dear James,I converted the djvu version of the book into >> pdf but it exceeded 25 megabyte . I tried other ways but >> apparently I didn't succeed. Now this is the original >> djvu version. I hope it can reach you so that you can >> convert it there your selves. I like to hear you about >> the solution.Best wishesHaydi >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >> From: Farhad Moezzipour >> To: Haydi Zulfei >> Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 0:39:21 >> Subject: >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > From jamesma320@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 00:53:52 2017 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 08:53:52 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fw: Fw: In-Reply-To: <40809cb3-f99e-1a14-c285-b06676469ca9@mira.net> References: <1082143443.1303033.1498681050941@mail.yahoo.com> <1052327947.1796877.1498728436587@mail.yahoo.com> <40809cb3-f99e-1a14-c285-b06676469ca9@mira.net> Message-ID: Do you mean his chapter "Hegel on faces and skulls" in that book? *_____________________________________* *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa * On 30 June 2017 at 08:40, Andy Blunden wrote: > Actually, the article by Aliasdair MacIntyre is also very good, and is > relevant to James' question about the H in CHAT. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 29/06/2017 8:15 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Thanks Haydi! I can open the book in DjVU fine, but perhaps for the >> others you could send around 2 PDFs, one each ofr Taylor and Pippin? >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> On 29/06/2017 7:27 PM, ?Haydi Zulfei? ? wrote: >> >>> Dear all,I have it both in acrobat reader format and originally as djvu >>> format. They both work for me but I don't know what's wrong with others' >>> computers. I can also think that what's wrong is with my own computer. >>> However , I again send the original djvu version which size is 3.43 MB. If >>> someone is to put it to some use and if there's any worry as to the >>> copyright problem , one can split it so that pages 22 to 79 are obtained >>> containing three articles two of which are mentioned by Andy.Best Haydi >>> >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >>> From: James Ma >>> To: Haydi Zulfei >>> Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 11:58:38 >>> Subject: Re: Fw: >>> Hi Haydi, unfortunately I still can't open it. Please could you send >>> it to xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Many thanks, James >>> ______________________________ _______James Ma >>> https://oxford.academia.edu/ JamesMa >>> >>> On 28 June 2017 at 21:17, wrote: >>> >>> Dear James,I converted the djvu version of the book into pdf but it >>> exceeded 25 megabyte . I tried other ways but apparently I didn't succeed. >>> Now this is the original djvu version. I hope it can reach you so that you >>> can convert it there your selves. I like to hear you about the >>> solution.Best wishesHaydi >>> >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >>> From: Farhad Moezzipour >>> To: Haydi Zulfei >>> Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 0:39:21 >>> Subject: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Jun 30 02:03:36 2017 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 19:03:36 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fw: Fw: In-Reply-To: References: <1082143443.1303033.1498681050941@mail.yahoo.com> <1052327947.1796877.1498728436587@mail.yahoo.com> <40809cb3-f99e-1a14-c285-b06676469ca9@mira.net> Message-ID: <4f7e9455-ffd5-ffca-77fd-ad1784955fde@mira.net> Yes, on pp. 183-184, MacIntyre explains why it is a thing's *history* which means that it cannot be grasped as a pseudoconcept but only by means of a true concept. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 30/06/2017 5:53 PM, James Ma wrote: > Do you mean his chapter "Hegel on faces and skulls" in > that book? > > /_____________________________________/ > > */James Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/ > > > > On 30 June 2017 at 08:40, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Actually, the article by Aliasdair MacIntyre is also > very good, and is relevant to James' question about > the H in CHAT. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > On 29/06/2017 8:15 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks Haydi! I can open the book in DjVU fine, > but perhaps for the others you could send around 2 > PDFs, one each ofr Taylor and Pippin? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > On 29/06/2017 7:27 PM, ?Haydi Zulfei? ? wrote: > > Dear all,I have it both in acrobat reader > format and originally as djvu format. They > both work for me but I don't know what's wrong > with others' computers. I can also think that > what's wrong is with my own computer. However > , I again send the original djvu version which > size is 3.43 MB. If someone is to put it to > some use and if there's any worry as to the > copyright problem , one can split it so that > pages 22 to 79 are obtained containing three > articles two of which are mentioned by > Andy.Best Haydi > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: James Ma > > To: Haydi Zulfei > > Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 11:58:38 > Subject: Re: Fw: > Hi Haydi, unfortunately I still can't open > it. Please could you send it to > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Many thanks, James > ______________________________ _______James Ma > https://oxford.academia.edu/ JamesMa > > On 28 June 2017 at 21:17, > > wrote: > > Dear James,I converted the djvu version of the > book into pdf but it exceeded 25 megabyte . I > tried other ways but apparently I didn't > succeed. Now this is the original djvu > version. I hope it can reach you so that you > can convert it there your selves. I like to > hear you about the solution.Best wishesHaydi > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Farhad Moezzipour > > To: Haydi Zulfei > > Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 0:39:21 > Subject: > > > > > > > > > > > From jamesma320@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 07:46:41 2017 From: jamesma320@gmail.com (James Ma) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 15:46:41 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fw: Fw: In-Reply-To: <4f7e9455-ffd5-ffca-77fd-ad1784955fde@mira.net> References: <1082143443.1303033.1498681050941@mail.yahoo.com> <1052327947.1796877.1498728436587@mail.yahoo.com> <40809cb3-f99e-1a14-c285-b06676469ca9@mira.net> <4f7e9455-ffd5-ffca-77fd-ad1784955fde@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks Andy. Interestingly, the word "history (or historical)" is far too "true" and familiar to me and many Chinese (though not all congenial due to the Cultural Revolution). It was a truly cut-through "semiosis" from school to university education during which everybody was ingrained with Marx's historical-dialectical materialism. In contrast, I spent 9 years studying full-time in England, during which I heard almost nothing about Marxism! In recent months I've started reading Heidegger (Being and Time) and found his "history as occurrence of Dasein" very special. It would add another angle for the manuscript I'm working on (situating Vygotsky in dialogue with Peirce). I feel Heidergger's "historicity" supplements Peirce's interpretant as "sign in the mind" (e.g."all thinking is dialogic in form. Your self of one instant appeals to your deeper self for his assent"). James *_____________________________________* *James Ma* *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa * On 30 June 2017 at 10:03, Andy Blunden wrote: > Yes, on pp. 183-184, MacIntyre explains why it is a thing's *history* > which means that it cannot be grasped as a pseudoconcept but only by means > of a true concept. > > Andy > ------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 30/06/2017 5:53 PM, James Ma wrote: > > Do you mean his chapter "Hegel on faces and skulls" in that book? > > *_____________________________________* > > *James Ma* * > https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa > * > > > > On 30 June 2017 at 08:40, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Actually, the article by Aliasdair MacIntyre is also very good, and is >> relevant to James' question about the H in CHAT. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> On 29/06/2017 8:15 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Thanks Haydi! I can open the book in DjVU fine, but perhaps for the >>> others you could send around 2 PDFs, one each ofr Taylor and Pippin? >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> On 29/06/2017 7:27 PM, ?Haydi Zulfei? ? wrote: >>> >>>> Dear all,I have it both in acrobat reader format and originally as djvu >>>> format. They both work for me but I don't know what's wrong with others' >>>> computers. I can also think that what's wrong is with my own computer. >>>> However , I again send the original djvu version which size is 3.43 MB. If >>>> someone is to put it to some use and if there's any worry as to the >>>> copyright problem , one can split it so that pages 22 to 79 are obtained >>>> containing three articles two of which are mentioned by Andy.Best Haydi >>>> >>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >>>> From: James Ma >>>> To: Haydi Zulfei >>>> Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 11:58:38 >>>> Subject: Re: Fw: >>>> Hi Haydi, unfortunately I still can't open it. Please could you >>>> send it to xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> Many thanks, James >>>> ______________________________ _______James Ma >>>> https://oxford.academia.edu/ JamesMa >>>> >>>> On 28 June 2017 at 21:17, < >>>> haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear James,I converted the djvu version of the book into pdf but it >>>> exceeded 25 megabyte . I tried other ways but apparently I didn't succeed. >>>> Now this is the original djvu version. I hope it can reach you so that you >>>> can convert it there your selves. I like to hear you about the >>>> solution.Best wishesHaydi >>>> >>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >>>> From: Farhad Moezzipour < fmp59i@gmail.com> >>>> To: Haydi Zulfei >>>> Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2017, 0:39:21 >>>> Subject: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 14:14:34 2017 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 06:14:34 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Palimpsests and Pentimentoes Message-ID: In 1989 Chris Sinha wrote a thought piece criticizing Vygotsky for the 19th Century idea of time that he used. According to Sinha, this involved "layers of time" corresponding to the phylogenetic (biological-natural), the sociogenetic (historico-cultural), ontogenetic (child developmental) and what we call microgenetic today. (Vygotsky himself did not use the term, "Aktualgenese", which was already popular among Gestaltists--he preferred "obuchenie", or "teaching/learning", Halliday uses "logogenesis" or sometimes "semiogenesis"). These layers of time were laid down like geological strata, one on top of the other. Of course it's possible to find this geological metaphor in Vygotsky, although when we do it is always attributed to other, earlier, scholars. Although it is often positively referred to, Vygotsky was extremely critical of the "recapitulationist"or "biogenetic" view of time that was derived from it by Haeckl in the field of evolution and by G.S. Hall in the field of child development. Ontogeny is an analogy for phylogeny (just as geology presents an analogy for phylogeny), but that means it does not recapitulate it, and in many ways presents us with the exact reverse (because the end of development is present before the child's eyes during development). Sociogenesis is not built over the biogenetic like the twelve cities of Troy that Schliemann unearthed. Instead what happens is that sociogenesis domesticates phylogenesis. The auroch is domesticated as the cow, wild grasses become cereals, and of course humans themselves are made into household animals, which is what leads to the next form of time, ontogenesis. I think, next to this view--which is the view that Vygotsky presents in his lecture on the environment--the idea that history consists of moments of the incarnation is Spirit/Dasein, is a diaphanous disguise thrown over Hegel's "Philosophy of History". But precisely because there are qualitative differences--and even revolutionary reversals--in the arrows of time at these different levels, it seems to me that we cannot use the domestication metaphor at the level of ontogenesis (as the Nazi psychologists tried to do with their notions of selective breeding), and we cannot use the child rearing metaphor at the level of logogenesis (semiogenesis) either. Just as we have to say that ontogenesis is not a kind of fast-forward sociogenesis, we have to say that learning/teaching is not a kind of fast-forward child development. Instead of a "layer" of learning laid on top of development, we need to think of learning/teaching as a form of semiogenesis: not a geological stratum, nor a sequence of embryonal stages, nor a city on a hill of ruined cities or even a palimpsest, but precisely the reverse of ontogenesis, with the "finished form" external to the child's eye. Semiogenesis is more like a pentimento--a painting with the incomplete sketches not at all present to the eyes but hidden beneath the polish of the final layer. -- David Kellogg Macquarie University "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare" Free Chapters Downloadable at: https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children Free E-print Downloadable at: http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full