[Xmca-l] Re: Отв: Re: Ilyenkov, Marx, & Spinoza
mike cole
mcole@ucsd.edu
Wed Jul 26 16:27:31 PDT 2017
What is the difference for Pavlov, David? For him the unit of analysis was
the conditional reflex. He studied mostly dogs but his ideas were
approriated by
Luria et al when it seemed like the better part of valor.
mike
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 3:57 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
> Translation is tough. For example, the French word "arbitraire" in de
> Saussure has none of the sense of "random", "reason-less", and "irrational"
> that we find in "arbitrary". It's actually more like the "arbitrator" that
> we find in "arbitration": a better translation would be "conventional" or
> even "conditional". All Saussure really wants to tell us is that any sound
> can be made to express anything. It's not so much that "everything has a
> name" (as Helen Keller put it). It's more like everything can be named. The
> confusion between what IS meant in a language or a register or a semantic
> code and what CAN BE meant in a language or a register or a semantic code
> is really the crux of Labov's demagogic (not to say "reasonless" or
> "irrational") critique of (Basil) Bernstein.
>
> I'm not a native speaker of Russian. But it seems to me that условности is
> better translated in the same way: conditionality, or conventionality.
> Since the sign is "neutral" in the sense that it could be almost anything,
> the bulk of the meaning making still falls to the receiver of the sign.
> Once we understand that THIS is the way that Vygotsky and Volosinov are
> using notions like "neutral sign," "conditional reflex", "conditionality",
> I don't see that there is any difference between Vygotsky's position and
> Spinoza's.
>
> David Kellogg
> Macquarie University
>
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 7:27 AM, Alexandre Sourmava <avramus@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi, Larry!
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you for your attentionto the article.
> > Your retelling of the topic is quite correct.
> > However, I think it can be useful to add my little comment concerning the
> > topicunder discussion.
> > Bernstein’s position is substantially spinozian and thereby antisemiotic.
> > Evidently, he bluntly contradicts to Vygotsky’sattempts to use arbitrary
> > sign as a magic key designed to solve the problem of freedom
> (independence
> > from mechanical causality).
> > Thus Vygotsky insisted that
> > ”Looking from the very broad philosophical perspective the whole realm
> > ofhistory, culture, and language is the realm of arbitrariness. So the
> > method ofconditional reflex acquires a very broad meaning of a
> > natural-historical methodconcerning human, of a tie that binds history
> and
> > evolution together.”
> > («В самом широком философском смысле этого терминавесь мир истории,
> > культуры, языка — это царство условности. В этом смысле методусловных
> > рефлексов приобретает широчайшее значение методаприродно-исторического в
> > применении к человеку, узла, который связывает историюи эволюцию»
> >
> > ВыготскийЛ. С. Психологическая наука в СССР. В кн.: «Общественные науки в
> > СССР(1917-1927 гг.)». М., 1928, с. 30.)
> >
> > There exists a prejudice that so called “Cultural-historical theory”
> > withits arbitrary signs is a sophisticated antithesis to coarse Pavlov’s
> > mechanicalapproach. Alas, that is far from reality. In fact, these two
> > theories are identical.That is the reason why Nicolai Bernstein who was
> > Vygotsky’s good friend had neverreferred to his ideas.
> >
> > Sasha Surmava
> >
> > вторник, 25 июля 2017 4:29 Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> писал(а):
> >
> >
> > I see.
> >
> > This is a slightly different context. The original meaning
> > of "paradigm," before the popularisation of Thomas Kuhn's
> > work, was a "founding exemplar."
> > "Exemplar" presumably has the same etymology as "example."
> >
> > The idea of "an example" as being one of numerous instances
> > of a process is a different concept, the opposite really.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Andy Blunden
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy
> > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> >
> > On 25/07/2017 2:01 AM, Larry Purss wrote:
> > > Andy,
> > > I will reference where I got the notion of linking
> > > [example] and [framework]. If this becomes interesting
> > > will open another thread.
> > > From David L. Marshall titled : "Historical and
> > > Philosophical Stances: Max Harold Fisch, a Paradigm for
> > > Intellectual Historians" -2009-
> > >
> > > PAGE 270:
> > >
> > > "Max Fisch constitutes an alternative to any intellectual
> > > historical method insisting that practiontioners remain
> > > agnostics about the value of the ideas they study. It is
> > > the chief contention of this essay that he is a 'paradigm'
> > > for intellectual historians, a paradigm in the original
> > > Greek sense of an *example* and in the DERIVED
> > > contemporary sense of a *framework* within which the
> > > community of research can proceed. Indeed it is just such
> > > *doubling* of the philological object qua example into a
> > > carapace for ongoing action and thought that Fisch
> > > explored in a variety of ways during his half century of
> > > creative intellectual work. "
> > >
> > >
> > > Andy, not sure if this is adequate context, but the
> > > relationality of [example : framework] through the concept
> > > *paradigm* seemed generative??
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 7:21 AM, Andy Blunden
> > > <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> > >
> > > "actions" or "an action" ... no extra word is needed.
> > > Extra words like "singular," "individual" or "single"
> > > only confuse the matter. "Examples" is too vague.
> > >
> > > Cannot make sense of the rest of your message at all,
> > > Larry.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Andy Blunden
> > > http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-
> decision-making
> > > <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-
> > collective-decision-making>
> > >
> > > On 25/07/2017 12:17 AM, Lplarry wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Andy,
> > >>
> > >> Following your lead it may be preferable to say
> > >> single (individual) to indicate the uniqueness of
> > >> variable social actions. This doubling (by
> > >> including both terms) may crystallize the intended
> > >> meaning as you mention.
> > >>
> > >> Andy is this vein can we also include the term
> > >> (examples)?
> > >>
> > >> Then the moving TRANS forming from single
> > >> (individual) social acts towards (practices) would
> > >> indicate the movement from examples to exemplary
> > >> actions and further movement (historicity) toward
> > >> (framework) practices.
> > >>
> > >> (framework) practices being another doubling.
> > >>
> > >> So moving (transforming) from single social examples
> > >> through exemplary social examples crystallizing in
> > >> social framework practices.
> > >>
> > >> Is this reasonable?
> > >>
> > >> Or not
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > >>
> > >> *From: *Andy Blunden <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> > >> *Sent: *July 24, 2017 6:57 AM
> > >> *To: *eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > >> *Cc: *Alexander Surmava <mailto:monada@netvox.ru>
> > >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov, Marx, & Spinoza
> > >>
> > >> Larry, when you say "Action IS individual," did you
> > >> mention
> > >>
> > >> to say that *actions* - the individual units of
> > >> *action* are
> > >>
> > >> individual? In which can it is of course a tautology.
> > >>
> > >> But *action* is irreducibly *social*, and so is every
> > >>
> > >> "individual" action. Or better, so is every
> > >> "singular" action.
> > >>
> > >> A lot of relevant differences are coded in the English
> > >>
> > >> language by the use of the count-noun or mass noun
> > >> form, but
> > >>
> > >> on the whole the set of words (action, actions,
> > >> activity,
> > >>
> > >> activities) and the set of words (practice,
> > >> practices) have
> > >>
> > >> no systematic difference running across all
> > >> disciplines and
> > >>
> > >> schools of thought. For us CHATters, "activities" are
> > >> practices.
> > >>
> > >> If you read Hegel and Marx, there is an added issue: the
> > >>
> > >> German words for action (Handlung) and activity
> > >> (Tatigkeit)
> > >>
> > >> are more or less inverted for Hegel, and he doesn't use
> > >>
> > >> Aktivitat at all.
> > >>
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Andy Blunden
> > >>
> > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> > >>
> > >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-
> > decision-making
> > >> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-
> > collective-decision-making>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 24/07/2017 11:42 PM, Larry Purss wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Alexander, Mike,
> > >>
> > >> > Thanks for the article.
> > >>
> > >> > Moving to page 51 I noticed that when referencing
> > >> Bernstein he contrasted (action) with (practice) and
> > >> did not REPEAT (identity) the thesis about the role
> > >> of practice in knowing).
> > >>
> > >> > Two formulas:
> > >>
> > >> > • Knowing THROUGH ‘action’
> > >>
> > >> > • Verification of knowing THROUGH ‘practice’
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > These two formulas closely RESEMBLE each other but
> > >> do not co-incide
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > Action IS individual
> > >>
> > >> > Practice IS a social category.
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > Sociohistorical (practice) in the final analysis is
> > >> nothing other than the SUM total of the actions of
> > >> individual who are separate.
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > Individual action is LIKE a single experiment.
> > >> They are alike in that both individual action & a
> > >> single experiment are poorly suited to the role of :
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > A philosophical criterion of (truth).
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > I do not have the background to intelligently
> > >> comment, but did register this theme as provocative
> > >> FOR further thought and wording.
> > >>
> > >> > And for generating intelligent commentary
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > From: Ivan Uemlianin
> > >>
> > >> > Sent: July 20, 2017 11:17 AM
> > >>
> > >> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >>
> > >> > Cc: Alexander Surmava
> > >>
> > >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov, Marx, & Spinoza
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > Yes very interesting thank you! (Ilyenkov fan)
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > Ivan
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > --
> > >>
> > >> > festina lente
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> >> On 20 Jul 2017, at 18:00, mike cole
> > >> <mcole@ucsd.edu> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> > >> >> This article might prove of interest to those who
> > >> have been discussing
> > >>
> > >> >> LSV's sources in
> > >>
> > >> >> marx and spinoza.
> > >>
> > >> >> mike
> > >>
> > >> >> <Ilyenkov_and_the_Revolution_in_Psycholog.pdf>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> David Kellogg
> Macquarie University
>
> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with
> Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare"
>
> Free Chapters Downloadable at:
>
> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-
> globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf
>
> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations
> on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children
>
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>
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>
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