[Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces

[Alfredo Jornet Gil]

Yes Larry, moving and being moved surely are moments of a same unit, though that observation still is pretty abstract or general, is not it? Not sensuous without action, not action without sensuous. Yet, we may very well find that someone acted insensibly, or that this or that sensation paralysed us so that we could not act; not event think!

Peter's and Mike's and mine experiences of feeling thoughts/thinking feelings trouble a little Harburg's comments that,

Music makes you feel a feeling;
Words make you think a thought;
Songs make you feel a thought.

At some points, it may seem that Peter's remarks (that it is pretty difficult to feel thoughts) and Mike's remarks (that it is pretty difficult to think without also feeling) are opposite. But it also may be that both argumentations may have different significance in the light of different inquiry lines.

I mean, if we are concerned with defining human action in general, we may then want to assert a unity of affect and action, and of affect and thought, all the way through.Philosophers such as Michel Henry, who has developed a 'Phenomenology of the Flesh' in which 'self-affection' rather than merely the 'sensuous' is foundational to human kind, are also very powerful arguments for holding a unity of intellect and affect. My dear colleague and mentor W-M Roth's is a good example of how such a philosophy can play out in empirical analyses of, e.g., mathematics teaching/learning, and how they can lead to insights of practical relevance too. 

Yet, we may also want to pursue other lines of inquiry where we are interested not on understanding unity but rather separation. How, if we accept some unity or genetic connection between affect and intellect, do we understand that some human actions appear indeed pretty insensible? Or that some wordings arise so much feeling in us? Words can very well make you cry, or perhaps want to kill yourself, no matter whether they are shouted, whispered, or told by a voice-machine. I don't think that an analysis of the relations between images and text in themselves can throw much light on today's cases of suicide related to cyber-bullying, for example. Words make you think a thought (and poems make you awake some feelings) but they can also make you shoot at someone, if you are well trained, armed, and your superior tells you to do so. A brief reading of Navy Seal memories (like Chris Kyle's or Kevin Lacz's show how much *work* there is in their narrative to account for the fact of coolness in killing; of motive in their doing). The Marilyn Manson–Columbine High School massacre controversy, if only a controversy--may do for an extreme mock-up of how music can be attributed with rational/irrational powers. So, how do we account for those separations between intellect and affect and action? 

I think that Vygotsky and Marx can be taken to be working towards a concrete approach to the latter question, while building on the general premise that there is a unity. So, back to perezhivanie, and as we (Jornet & Roth) wrote in the final commentary of the special issue, positing that there is unity can only be a start, but no more than that. I think David Kellogg's recent 'fan-fucking-tastic' (his writing!) remarks on 'semiogenesis' were attempting to address these distinction between affect and intellect as an internal relation via a concrete inquiry. Yet, I wonder whether psychological or linguistic inquiry can do, for it seems that each different historical practice exhibits different forms of relation between feelings and reasons.

This is as far as I came... I still have to read Andy on Hegel and action to see whether there is light there on these,
Alfredo
  
________________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Lplarry <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
Sent: 15 July 2017 15:30
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces

Alfredo,
To echo (and therefore amplify) this phrase:
‘I can very well (feel) moved by’...

This way of saying what is occurring
(to be moved by) is i believe what Merleau-Ponty discursively explores AS PASSIVITY.

So when exploring (activity) and (action) as moving phenomena we also are exploring (passivity)

Moving & being moved by

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: Alfredo Jornet Gil
Sent: July 15, 2017 2:40 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces

Yes, Greg, I also thought of the connection with Perezhivanie when it comes to Peter's very interesting comment on the octave jump in "Some-where," and your comment on the two-part harmony. Definitely must have to do with difference, cause it is difference what we 'feel,' even if in some cases it may be a difference that achieves 'sameness'.

Yet, I was also thinking that I can very well 'feel' moved reading a text where there is not sound, no shift in pitch... My two-years daughter, in hearing Trump, was also catching on all those non-verbal (she does not understand much English yet) signals when she called Trump 'enfadado' (angry). But then again, the same can be achieved by only words. I can get very very upset everyday reading the world's news ...
So, yes, words can give thoughts, but not just thoughts. I also grew up listening to lots of English-speaking music when I was a child (e.g., my older sister's Suzanne Vega and also Supertramp albums were my favourites). I could not understand much of what they said, but they definitively made me feel. And I would say those were not 'thought-less' feelings.

Alfredo
________________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Sent: 13 July 2017 21:07
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces

And I think I posted this a few months back, but here is a Democracy Now
tribute to Yip Harburg that includes an interview with his son (apologies
if someone else posted this and I missed it):
https://www.democracynow.org/2008/12/25/a_tribute_to_yip_harburg_the

Interesting to think about the the octave jump in "Some-where" and how it
adds emotional resonance. Seems to resonate with what is being taken up in
other threads here regarding perezhivanie, now? Two-part harmony?

-greg

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:

> Mike
>
>      What you say is interesting, but it is not my experience and not that
> of any I have talked so far (other than yourself). I can, for example,
> imagine winning the lottery. I can imagine even imagine that I felt a
> feeling that most would feel on that occurrence; however I do not feel
> those feelings if I imagine winning the lottery (I just tried it, by the
> way). I can imagine that I came home tired tomorrow evening, I can imagine
> that I was tired, but I do not feel tired when I do that imagining (even
> though I was tired last night so I know what those feeling were like). It
> may quite well be a lack in me and others.
>       Anyway, how does it feel when you imagine coming home tired or do I
> misunderstand. Are you saying you imagine coming home tired and find
> yourself feeling something - say irritation - or are you saying, in your
> body and mind, you feel what you normally identify as tiredness?
>
> Ed
>
> > On Jul 12, 2017, at  10:19 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ed-- How could you NOT feel something that was imagined? Imagine you
> won
> > the lottery? Imagine you come home tired tomorrow evening? Imagine what
> you
> > like, but imagine it without a feeling about it? sounds like a pathology
> (!)
> >
> > I have discovered that  a movie of Finian's rainbow is pretty widely
> > accessible. you tube, amazon, elsewhere. If you read the entry in
> > wikipedia, or the info I discovered at the Harburg Foundation, you will
> be
> > able to discern the affinity between Harburg and xmca.  For example:
> >
> > Feisty Irishman Finian McLonergan (Fred Astaire) and his faithful
> daughter,
> > Sharon (Petula Clark), bearing a pot of gold stolen from the leprechaun
> Og
> > (Tommy Steele), settle in the village of Rainbow Valley, Missitucky.
> Siding
> > with local sharecroppers like Woody Mahoney (Don Francks) against a
> blustering,
> > bigoted local politician (Keenan Wynn), the McLonergans get into a number
> > of fanciful scrapes while being pursued by the magical Og, who will
> become
> > mortal if he doesn't recover his gold.
> >
> >
> > Now I am off to watch the movie!  :-)
> >
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Late to this conversation; however, I been thinking about whether one
> can
> >> feel something that is imagined and, if so, what would it be like
> (there is
> >> some debate about this). It would seem that Harberg, to some extent,
> says
> >> “yes" with “Songs make you feel a thought.” Quite interesting.
> >>
> >> Ed Wall
> >>
> >>> On Jul 12, 2017, at  7:34 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Whoa! Small world. I learn something new about the wonderful Yip
> Harberg
> >>> and that the Fennyhough is on kindle in adjacent message on xmca! The
> >> book
> >>> appears to converge on a lot of long term xmca concerns. (And to listen
> >> to
> >>> Finian's rueful refrain again would be a joy)
> >>> :-)
> >>>
> >>> Having the book simultaneously available and less than 100$ is a great
> >>> resource.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Peter and Daniel.
> >>>
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> >> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Thank you for these compelling and heartfelt thoughts, Peter. I'm
> >> scoping
> >>>> up the book on Kindle and may have further reflections or questions
> for
> >> you
> >>>> over the next few weeks. There was an NPR Radiolab episode a few years
> >> ago
> >>>> about people with damaged limbic systems who couldn't make decisions -
> >>>> perhaps pertinent to the concept of unity of thought and feeling,
> which
> >> I
> >>>> would also like to take a closer look at.
> >>>>
> >>>> Kind regards and many thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> Daniel
> >>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> >>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi, Daniel.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fernyhough's book doesn't delve into the intricacies of a musician's
> >>>> *inner
> >>>>> ear*,
> >>>>> but he does cover internal speech without sound, internal sound
> without
> >>>>> words,
> >>>>> the internal *felt presence* of a person who doesn't speak, and
> >> internal
> >>>>> voices
> >>>>> that are disembodied. From these and other examples he suggests that
> >>>>> hearing
> >>>>> voices is a much richer phenomenon than just auditory perception: it
> is
> >>>> the
> >>>>> surface
> >>>>> level of an inner experience that embraces the imagining of a
> *person*,
> >>>> who
> >>>>> has
> >>>>> an individual point of view and a characteristic voice. Only pieces
> of
> >>>> this
> >>>>> inner
> >>>>> person may come to be experienced consciously.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regarding the deaf, Fernyhough explores inner signing and inner
> >> voices--
> >>>>> yes,
> >>>>> deaf people who hear voices internally but who have never had the
> >>>>> experience
> >>>>> of hearing the voices of others! Many of the internal musical
> >> experiences
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> you mention have auditory parallels in the case studies he presents.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As a former musician myself (in my youth), I have always wondered
> about
> >>>>> those
> >>>>> musicians who claim to have perfect pitch. I don't possess that
> >> ability,
> >>>>> but I have
> >>>>> absolutely no need for a tuning device when I tune my guitar strings:
> >> my
> >>>>> inner
> >>>>> (and outer) ear is all I need.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Since you raised the issue of the pairings of words and music, I'd
> like
> >>>> to
> >>>>> take this
> >>>>> opportunity to share a favorite quote from Yip Harberg, classmate of
> >> Ira
> >>>>> Gershwin
> >>>>> and composer of the words and music for The Wizard of Oz, Finnian's
> >>>>> Rainbow,
> >>>>> and the Depression-era song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?  Harberg
> >> gave
> >>>> a
> >>>>> lot
> >>>>> of thought to the relation between music and words, noting that:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Music makes you feel a feeling;
> >>>>> Words make you think a thought;
> >>>>> Songs make you feel a thought.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The quote above came to mind as I was eavesdropping on an earlier
> >>>>> conversation
> >>>>> on this listserv (a month ago!) concerning Vygotsky's notion of the
> >> unity
> >>>>> of thinking
> >>>>> and emotions in the formation of the human personality. Personally, I
> >>>> have
> >>>>> trouble
> >>>>> conjuring up an image of *emotions*, but I have no difficulty
> >>>> experiencing
> >>>>> emotions
> >>>>> when they take a musical form. I am much more comfortable thinking
> >> about
> >>>>> feelings
> >>>>> than I am about feeling thoughts. Intellectualizing emotions is a
> >>>> cultural
> >>>>> experience
> >>>>> that many men excel at, I suspect.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My two cents.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Peter
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> >>>> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Many thanks to both Ulvi and Peter for the points about internal
> >>>> speech,
> >>>>>> its role in drama, and Fernyhough's work from last year. As I'm a
> >>>>> musician,
> >>>>>> they bring to mind (hopefully) related questions (apparently glanced
> >> at
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>> The Voices Within) which I'd be grateful to know more about, in the
> >>>>>> contexts of psychology or neurobiology:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Musicians use the term "inner ear" (though "inner voice" might be
> >>>> more
> >>>>>> specific) to denote the faculty of being able to subjectively "hear"
> >>>>>> melody, song, chant/rap (rhythmic words without melody), (groups of)
> >>>>>> instruments and the like, untethered to physical sound. The most
> >>>> extreme
> >>>>>> cases concern composers such as Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré who
> lost
> >>>>>> their hearing in adulthood. But anyone who can read a score,
> practice
> >>>>>> toward matching a concrete tonal image, recall a concert, audiate
> what
> >>>>> they
> >>>>>> are about to play or sing, or receive new musical ideas, does this.
> >>>> Need
> >>>>>> one only be a trained musician, or are there other paths to this
> >>>> ability?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Some "inner ear" experiences are paired with words, others with
> >>>> events
> >>>>>> (e.g., birdcalls, thunderstorms, night sounds of nature, the
> quickened
> >>>>>> pulse of desire, galloping horses' hooves), some with waves of
> >> feelings
> >>>>>> that might fit words (or not), some are simply music. How are these
> >>>>> alike,
> >>>>>> and different?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Some pairings of words and music are socially organized (Mozart
> and
> >>>> da
> >>>>>> Ponte, Rodgers and Hammerstein, George and Ira Gershwin), others
> >>>> internal
> >>>>>> to one person (Wagner, Mahler). How are these alike and different?
> How
> >>>>> does
> >>>>>> parody (the type where new words are fitted to an old tune) relate
> to
> >> a
> >>>>>> live composer setting words from a past poet?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Tinnitus (ringing in the ears after hearing loss) is now suggested
> >> to
> >>>>> be
> >>>>>> the effect of the brain filling in tones it "thinks" are happening
> but
> >>>>> not
> >>>>>> heard. Is this purely physical, or can experience, training,
> >>>> reflection,
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>> other factors alter it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I guess the common thread is, what do psychology and neurobiology
> >> offer
> >>>>> (or
> >>>>>> promise) to help us understand these types of musical experience,
> >>>>> ability,
> >>>>>> and disability? Thanks in advance to anyone moved to chime in, or
> >>>>> recommend
> >>>>>> readings.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Daniel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thank you Peter.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ulvi
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 12 Tem 2017 17:38 tarihinde "Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]" <
> >>>>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> yazdı:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ulvi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Your questions about the science of inner speech monologue and its
> >>>>> use
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> the analysis of theatrical material - to convey the internal
> >>>> richness
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> ​the ​
> >>>>>>>> emotion
> >>>>>>>> ​
> >>>>>>>> and thought
> >>>>>>>> ​​
> >>>>>>>> ​of
> >>>>>>>> characters
> >>>>>>>> ​ - are tangentially addressed by Charles Fernyhough
> >>>>>>>> in his recent book The Voices Within. Charles is a colleague who
> >>>>> works
> >>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>> Vygotsky's
> >>>>>>>> theory of private and inner speech development, but who
> specializes
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> the dialogicality of inner speech and its role in people who hear
> >>>>>> voices
> >>>>>>> -
> >>>>>>>> both normal
> >>>>>>>> and hallucinatory. While he doesn't directly address the issue of
> >>>>>>>> theatrical characters,
> >>>>>>>> he does provide insights - based on evidence and research - into
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> creative
> >>>>>>>> writing process of novelists, and the various roles that inner
> >>>> voices
> >>>>>>> play
> >>>>>>>> in their
> >>>>>>>> work and thought.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I highly recommend this book because of the admirable way in which
> >>>>>>>> Fernyhough
> >>>>>>>> manages to navigate highly complicated issues concerning a
> >>>> phenomenon
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> is largely elusive - even though it constitutes the highest stage
> >>>> in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> development
> >>>>>>>> of verbal thinking. As a less courageous researcher, I chose to
> >>>> study
> >>>>>>>> private speech
> >>>>>>>> because the data are empirical and tangible, subject to linguistic
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> sociolinguistic
> >>>>>>>> analysis.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> >>>>>> amazon.com_Voices-2DWithin-2DHistory-2DScience-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=
> >>>>>> aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=
> >>>>>> mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
> >>>>>> iXFaj8Q4I5K2fbAjp7wwg7xDtlZs8s_s7DI7l664u24&s=
> >>>>>> DEs5D5eLtGRTqr_XA8tkmjg4GFaAp_30zW3KKzPHIqg&e=
> >>>>>>>> Ourselves/dp/0465096808
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Peter
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Nazim Hikmet uses widely inner  thought and momologue in a work
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>> convey
> >>>>>>>>> the internal richness of emotion and thought of his characters.
> >>>>>>>> Especially
> >>>>>>>>> inner thought.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The name of the work is Ferhad and Sirin, and another name is
> >>>>> Legend
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> love.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Anyone can see the very interesting content of the work,
> >>>> characters
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> struggle in a triangle of love.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It is a quite successful work, played by Bolshoi.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> My questions are:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Does the science of psychology make wide use of such theater
> >>>> work?
> >>>>>> i.e.
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> terms of the inner thought.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Does the science of pscyhology make use of such theater work in
> >>>>> terms
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> human development? i.e. in terms of the "defects" human beings
> >>>>>> possess.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ulvi
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> >>>>>>>> Director,
> >>>>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
> >>>>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> >>>>>>>> Fordham University
> >>>>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
> >>>>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> >>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> >>>>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> >>>>> Director,
> >>>>> Office of Institutional Research
> >>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> >>>>> Fordham University
> >>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
> >>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> >>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> >>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>


--
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson