[Xmca-l] Re: Happy New Year and Perezhivanie!
mike cole
mcole@ucsd.edu
Wed Jan 11 11:22:40 PST 2017
Hi David -
I was not flattering you, I was misinterpreting you. I'll go back and read
the message again. No point in me sewing confusion. Enough of it as there
is!
mike
On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 9:22 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
> You flatter me, Mike. Here's what Vygotsky did say:
>
> Следовательно, самый существенный поворот, который должен быть сделан при
> изучении среды,— это переход от ее абсолютных показателей к относительным —
> изучать надо среду ребенка: раньше всего надо изучить, что она означает для
> ребенка, каково отношение ребенка к отдельным сторонам этой среды.
> Скажем, ребенок
> до года не говорит. После того как он заговорил, речевая среда его
> близких остается
> неизменной. И до года и после года в абсолютных показателях речевая
> культура окружающих нисколько не изменилась. Но, я думаю, всякий
> согласится: с той минуты, когда ребенок начал понимать первые слова, когда
> он начал произносить первые осмысленные слова, его отношение к речевым
> моментам в среде, роль речи в отношении к ребенку очень изменились.
>
>
>
> "Consequently, the most substantial shift, which must be carried out in the
> study of the environment—a transition from absolute indicators to relative
> ones—it is necessary to study the environment for the child: first of all
> it is necessary to study what it signifies to the child, what the
> relationship of the child is to the different aspects of this environment.
> For example, the child of less than one does not speak. Once he speaks, the
> speech environment of those in the immediate environment remains unchanged.
> And the year before and the year after the absolute indicators of the
> culture of speech surrounding him is practically unchanged. But, I think,
> everyone will agree that from the minute when the child begins to
> understand the first words, when he begins to utter his first sensible
> words, his relationship to the moments of speech in the environment and the
> role of speech in relationship to the child are very much changed."
>
>
> I thought "absolute indicators" was not a term that would mean a lot to
> most people on this list--you really have to read it in relation to
> "relative indicators" and Vygotsky's critique of the textbook that his
> students are reading (by Aron Zalkind). Vygotsky uses "perezhivanie" as an
> example of a relational indicator. But Zalkind's SES, the number of times a
> child visits the bathhouse each week, the cubic metres in a family
> apartment, the newspapers that the family subscribes to, the dialect a
> family speaks--these are all examples of the former. I just thought that
> "endowment" would be a little more meaningful to others; even when you
> change rubles to dollars, you can't get a samovar at Costco. All indicators
> are relative indicators in that sense.
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Macquarie University
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 3:19 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> > David -- I am finding it very difficult to distinguish what Vygotsky
> wrote
> > what you are saying that Vygotsky is saying, and what you are saying.
> >
> > I read the phrase I quoted as coming from LSV not DK. And I went looking
> > for the Russian passage in your email to see if I interpreted the notion
> of
> > endowment the way Vygotsky did, only to find out it was you writing!!
> >
> > Getting slow in my old age for sure.
> >
> > mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 7:29 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Tenaciously, Mike. The word "endowment" is a metaphor for something
> > given,
> > > like the endowment of a university, or the patrimony of an investment
> > fund.
> > > The child's biological endowment is given to the child by heredity and
> > > speech doesn't change that endowment. The most important part of
> > > the child's social endowment is, as Bronfenbrenner points out, largely
> > > unseen by the child: it's what Mommy and Daddy do for a living. That is
> > not
> > > changed by the child's learning speech either.
> > >
> > > Vygotsky's a semiotician: not an environmentalist and he's also not a
> > > constructivist. The semiotic truth isn't in the middle; it's
> > simultaneously
> > > beyond both extremes. It's beyond environmentalism because what the
> child
> > > obtains from the social and cultural environment is a semiotic and not
> > > simply an interpersonal one; it's the context of culture and the
> > resources
> > > of the language system and not simply the immediate text and the
> > immediate
> > > situation. It's beyond constructivism, because what the child construes
> > in
> > > building up a grammar is not simply the meanings but the meaning
> > > potentials; not just seen paths for the taking but also the unseen ones
> > not
> > > taken.
> > >
> > > That's why even the most social-behavioristic psychologists can
> > > underestimate the influence of the environment and even the most
> > "childist"
> > > constructivists can understate the creativity involved; why people like
> > > Chomsky end up invoking biology and conversely people like Skinner end
> up
> > > invoking culture and environment to make up the deficit. Both assume
> that
> > > language has to be literally "acquired" or "built up" and cannot see a
> > way
> > > to do this with finite materials. But the resources are not material at
> > > all; they are semiotic, and "construction", like "endowment," is
> simply
> > a
> > > metaphor we use to lend the weightlessness of word meaning a little
> mass.
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Macquarie University
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 1:01 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > You believe the following, David?
> > > >
> > > > Neither the biological nor the social endowment
> > > > of the child greatly changes in the acquisition of speech;
> > > > nevertheless,.....
> > > >
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 3:24 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Andy:
> > > > >
> > > > > A good paradox! Word meaning is a unit, but the spoken word itself
> is
> > > > just
> > > > > an element--a thing. We can see that this is, on the face of it,
> > > > > impossible: within a single holistic analysis, an element can be a
> > part
> > > > of
> > > > > a unit, but a unit can never be a part of an element. So what you
> are
> > > > > referring to when you say that the word is a thing is the "sonic"
> or
> > > > > "phasal" quality of the word: its "acoustic" properties, its
> > > "phonetics".
> > > > >
> > > > > But not its phonology. The word that Vygotsky uses for "phoneme"
> > refers
> > > > to
> > > > > the 1929 work of the Prague Circle, originally the Moscow Circle.
> He
> > > is a
> > > > > LITTLE coy about this, because the founders, Jakobson and
> Trubetskoy,
> > > > were
> > > > > not very popular with the authorities and Vygotsky already had
> plenty
> > > of
> > > > > heterodox acquaintances to worry about. Nevertheless, whenever
> > Vygotsky
> > > > > says "phoneme", we know he really means what Jakobson and
> Trubetskoy
> > > > called
> > > > > "morphophonemes". We know this because the examples he actually
> > > > > gives--Russian case endings--are morpho-phonemes and not simply
> > > phonemes:
> > > > > so for example in English the sound /s/ is a simple phoneme when I
> > say
> > > > the
> > > > > word "self" but if I say "Andy's" the sound /s/ is a
> morpho-phoneme:
> > a
> > > > > difference in sounding that makes a difference in meaning. The
> system
> > > > (that
> > > > > is, the paradigmatic menu) of these differences in soundings are
> what
> > > the
> > > > > Moscow and Prague Circles called "phonology" (as OPPOSED to
> > phonetics),
> > > > and
> > > > > this is the kind of "phoneme" that Vygotsky is really talking
> about.
> > > > >
> > > > > Still, you can see that it is not what he is talking about when he
> > says
> > > > > word meaning, because these units are still nowhere near big enough
> > to
> > > > > describe the kinds of changes which must occur when verbal thinking
> > > > > develops. I feel the same way about a lot of the examples offered
> of
> > > > > "perezhivanie", including Marc's. If MacDuff's grief or Carla's
> > > epiphany
> > > > > about the misbehavior of her kids being due to "outside influences"
> > > > really
> > > > > is the unit of personality and experience that Vygotsky wants us to
> > use
> > > > > when we analyse the ontogenesis of personality, then it is no more
> > > > > appropriate than using the morpho-phoneme to analyse the whole of
> > > verbal
> > > > > thinking. Just as evolution (of species) requires very different
> > units
> > > > from
> > > > > history (of classes), development, whether we are talking about
> > verbal
> > > > > thinking or the personality as a whole, is going to require very
> > > > different
> > > > > units from learning, whether we are talking about MacDuff or Carla.
> > The
> > > > > units must be able to develop; that is, the relationship of the
> > > elements
> > > > > within them must be susceptible to many changes over time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me give three examples of how this happens in different
> > > > "perezhivanie".
> > > > > They are not mine; they are Vygotsky's, and they are all from the
> > > > > Pedological Lectures.
> > > > >
> > > > > First, the Crisis at One. Neither the biological nor the social
> > > endowment
> > > > > of the child greatly changes in the acquisition of speech;
> > > nevertheless,
> > > > > the relationship between the personality and the environment, of
> > which
> > > > > both personality moments and environmental ones are constituent
> > > elements,
> > > > > is entirely transformed. Here we are not talking about phonemes, or
> > > even
> > > > > morpho-phonemes: we are talking about "wordings"--whole utterances.
> > In
> > > > > Melbourne I presented some data that demonstrated this
> beautifully--a
> > > > > child's first word is actually an attempt to imitate a whole
> > > > conversation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Second, the Crisis at Three. Vygotsky spends a lot of time
> discussing
> > > the
> > > > > "Seven Stars"--the symptoms of the "Terrible Twos" and
> > "Threenagehood"
> > > > > noted by harried parents everywhere. But by the end of his analysis
> > > it's
> > > > > clear that what really happens is a new relationship between wish
> and
> > > > > will: in extreme cases, the child actually wishes for one thing
> (e.g.
> > > > > compromise) and wills the opposite (the everlasting "No!"). Again,
> > > > neither
> > > > > the personality moments as such nor the environmental ones change,
> > but
> > > > > there is a separation and a sorting which allows the subordination
> of
> > > > wish
> > > > > to will that we see in play. This isn't the kind of "aha" moment
> that
> > > > Marc
> > > > > is offering us at all: Vygotsky actually calls it the "antipode" of
> > > > future
> > > > > will, because instead of enabling will it actually paralyzes it.
> But
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > > indubitably a key moment in the development of the relation of
> > > > personality
> > > > > to environmental moments that we see in "perizhivanie".
> > > > >
> > > > > Thirdly, the Crisis at Seven. I think Gonzalez Rey makes a total
> hash
> > > of
> > > > > this, and I get very cross when I read his article. It is not true
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > essence of perizhivanie remained a mystery to Vygotsky simply
> because
> > > he
> > > > no
> > > > > longer subscribes to "the aesthetic reaction" and "catharsis" and
> > other
> > > > > notions that he toyed with in Psych of Art (he's no longer doing
> > > > > experiments on changes in breathing rate when people read the works
> > of
> > > > > Bunin either!). It might be true that he never offered a system of
> > > facts
> > > > > and methodological procedures for perezivanie, but that was only
> > > because
> > > > > one already existed, for example in the work of Wallon and Stern
> > > > > and others. It is demonstrably not true that when Vygotsky says
> that
> > > the
> > > > > speech environment of those around him does not change when the
> child
> > > > > learns to talk at one, he is not "profoundly contradictory with the
> > > > concept
> > > > > of sense": when you read the quotation in context, it is very clear
> > > that
> > > > > what he is referring to are the kinds of absolute indicators used
> by
> > > > > Zalkind: how often the parents read the newspapers, the dialect
> they
> > > > speak,
> > > > > and their educational background. These do not change, and if the
> > child
> > > > > wants to make sense, these are the factors the child will have to
> > > relate
> > > > > to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vygotsky gives the example of a child who is severely retarded. The
> > > child
> > > > > wants to play with other children and is rejected. The child walks
> > down
> > > > the
> > > > > street and the other children follow, laughing. The child is
> shrieked
> > > at,
> > > > > insulted, but as soon as the humiliation stops, the child is
> > perfectly
> > > > > happy with himself. Vygotsky points out that the child is not able
> > > > > to "co-generalize" the "perizhivanie" of the humiliations: each is
> > > > > unpleasant, but they are entirely separate and cannot be connected
> > with
> > > > any
> > > > > internal sense of inferiority. A normal child, however, is able to
> > > > > "internalize" these humiliations and consequently develops a sense
> of
> > > > > inferiority. We can see that what has happened is the insertion of
> > what
> > > > > Vygotsky calls an "intellectual" moment: an inner layer, which is
> > what
> > > > > distinguishes later Chaplin movies from earlier ones (again,
> > Vygotsky's
> > > > > example, not mine!) and what brings about the "loss of directness
> and
> > > > > naivete" that we see in pre-schoolers.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that the reason people find "perizhivanie" so hard to work
> > with
> > > > is
> > > > > the same reason that they find "word meaning" hard to work with: it
> > > > > develops. The feeling of drinking milk as the infant drinks it is
> > > > > perizhivanie, and the thought of being humiliated when you are
> > mulling
> > > it
> > > > > over and contemplating revenge is also perizhivanie, and only a
> > > profound
> > > > > analysis which includes ontogenetic development and not just
> learning
> > > > will
> > > > > show the inner link between them. It's for that reason that I think
> > > that
> > > > > "activity" is not a useful unit of analysis and I am much more
> > inclined
> > > > to
> > > > > use your word "project", so long as it can include what Vygotsky
> > calls
> > > > > "inner activeness".
> > > > >
> > > > > Vygotsky says:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Когда я размышляю, припоминаю и т. д., я имею дело с внутренней
> > > > > активностью, эта внутренняя деятельность психологических процессов
> > > > > непосредственно не связана с внешней деятельностью. Вот эта новая
> > форма
> > > > > внутренней активности в школьном возрасте заключается в том, что, в
> > то
> > > > > время как в дошкольном возрасте эти внутренние деятельности
> > > обнаруживают
> > > > > непосредственную связь с действием, внешней активностью, в школьном
> > > > > возрасте мы имеем относительно самостоятельно возникающие,
> > относительно
> > > > > независимые внутренние активности по отношению к внешней
> > деятельности.
> > > > Это
> > > > > уже ребенок, который может размышлять, в то время когда он делает
> или
> > > > видит
> > > > > что-нибудь, тот, у которого возникает дифференциация внешней и
> > > внутренней
> > > > > деятельности.
> > > > >
> > > > > When I think, remember, etc. I am dealing with inner activeness;
> this
> > > > > psychological process of inner activity is not directly linked to
> any
> > > > > external activity. The new form of inner activeness in the School
> Age
> > > > > consists of this: that while during the preschool years these inner
> > > > > activities demonstrated an immediate link with action, with
> external
> > > > > activeness, in the school years we have a relative autonomy which
> > > > emerges,
> > > > > inner activeness which is relatively independent of external
> > > activities.
> > > > > Here is already a child who can think, at the same time when he is
> > > doing
> > > > or
> > > > > seeing something, one in whom has emerged a differentiation of
> inner
> > > and
> > > > > outer activities.
> > > > > David Kellogg
> > > > > Macquarie University
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > David: "Are words really units?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, firstly, "units" is a *relative* term. That is, the
> question
> > > is:
> > > > > are
> > > > > > words units of something, some complex process subject to
> analysis.
> > > And
> > > > > > which?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Secondly, according to Vygotsky, "no." The concept Vygotsky
> > proposes
> > > > as a
> > > > > > unit is "word meaning" which he says is a unity of sound and
> > meaning.
> > > > The
> > > > > > sound is an artefact, which, detached from its meaningful
> utterance
> > > in
> > > > a
> > > > > > transactional context is just a thing, viz., a word. Whereas
> "word
> > > > > meaning"
> > > > > > is an arrtefact-mediated action, a unit of human social activity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is true that words can be countable or mass according to
> > context,
> > > > but
> > > > > I
> > > > > > wasn't talking about words was I? I was talking about word
> meaning.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > Andy Blunden
> > > > > > http://home.mira.net/~andy
> > > > > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-
> > > decision-making
> > > > > > On 8/01/2017 7:59 AM, David Kellogg wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Are words really units? When we look at their ideational meaning
> > > (that
> > > > > is,
> > > > > >> their logical and experiential content--their capacity for
> > > > representing
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> linking together human experiences) they seem to fall into two
> > very
> > > > > >> different categories: lexical words like "perezhivanie" or
> "sense"
> > > or
> > > > > >> "personality" of "individual" and grammatical words like "of",
> or
> > > > > "might",
> > > > > >> or "is". The lexical words seem to behave like units--they are
> > > > bounded,
> > > > > >> discrete, and, as Andy would say, "countable" (the problem is
> that
> > > > > almost
> > > > > >> all nouns are both countable and uncountable depending on the
> > > context
> > > > > you
> > > > > >> put them in, so this distinction is really not as essential as
> > Andy
> > > > > seems
> > > > > >> to assume). But the more grammatical words seem to be elements
> of
> > > some
> > > > > >> larger unit, which we can call wording.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Veresov and Fleer come up against this problem with "edintsvo"
> and
> > > > > >> "edintsa". Of course, as they say, the two words are distinct.
> But
> > > > this
> > > > > >> doesn't necessarily mean that the former always corresponds to
> > > "unity"
> > > > > in
> > > > > >> English and the latter is always "unit". If you look at the
> > > paragraph
> > > > > they
> > > > > >> translate on 330, you can see that Vygotsky starts with an idea
> > that
> > > > is
> > > > > >> quite "synoptic" and is well expressed by "unit". But in the
> last
> > > > > sentence
> > > > > >> there is a sense that "perezhivanie" is a meta-stable unit--one
> > that
> > > > > >> remains self-similar only through a process of thorough change,
> > > like a
> > > > > >> bicycle whose every part is replaced--and in English is it is
> > better
> > > > to
> > > > > >> express this idea with "unity". The problem is that the
> > differences
> > > > > >> between
> > > > > >> "edintsvo" and "edintsva" in Russian is a matter of gender (I
> > think)
> > > > and
> > > > > >> not simply abstractness, and as a result the English version,
> > which
> > > > > cannot
> > > > > >> use the resource of gender,has to rely on abstractness, so the
> > words
> > > > > >> "unity" and "unit" are somewhat more distinct and less linked
> than
> > > > > >> "edintsvo" and "edintsva".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> There are other problems that are similar. When Gonzalez Rey
> uses
> > > the
> > > > > word
> > > > > >> "final moment" to refer to the final period of Vygotsky's
> > thinking,
> > > he
> > > > > >> leaves the anglophone reader the impression that he is referring
> > to
> > > > > >> Vygotsky's deathbed thoughts. On the other hand, when Veresov
> and
> > > > Fleer
> > > > > >> use
> > > > > >> "factor" to translate the same Russian word that Gonzalez Rey is
> > > > using,
> > > > > >> they are giving us something more quantitative than Vygotsky
> > > intended,
> > > > > and
> > > > > >> their translation of "dalee nerazloshim'im chastyami etava
> > edinstva"
> > > > > >> into "vital and further indivisible part of the whole" is quite
> > > > opaque
> > > > > in
> > > > > >> English (notice that here Veresov and Fleer use "whole" to
> > translate
> > > > > >> "edinstva" rather than "unit"!) At some point you have to accept
> > > that
> > > > > you
> > > > > >> can change Russian words into English words as if you were
> > > exchanging
> > > > > >> rubles for dollars, but you still won't be able to buy a samovar
> > at
> > > > > >> Walmart.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> David Kellogg
> > > > > >> Macquarie University
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 5:21 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Larry, all,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> our arguments in the 2014 address a science education
> literature
> > in
> > > > > which
> > > > > >>> the constructivist perspective is the leading perspective; We
> > note
> > > > that
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>> assertion that people learn from experience is everywhere taken
> > for
> > > > > >>> granted
> > > > > >>> but nowhere accounted for. We resort to pragmatist and
> > > > phenomenological
> > > > > >>> literature along with Vygotsky's insights to point out the need
> > to
> > > > > >>> account
> > > > > >>> for learning as something that cannot be the result of an
> > > > individual's
> > > > > >>> construction; in experience there is always something in excess
> > of
> > > > what
> > > > > >>> you
> > > > > >>> intended, and this is a basic feature of doing, of performing.
> I
> > > take
> > > > > >>> that
> > > > > >>> to be your "trans" in the trans/zhivanie word, Larry, which
> > already
> > > > is
> > > > > >>> denoted in the word PERezhivanie.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> But I do not wish to move our discussion too far away from
> Marc's
> > > > paper
> > > > > >>> and the Perezhivanie special issue. We also risk disengaging
> many
> > > > that
> > > > > >>> have
> > > > > >>> not have the privilege we've had to have the time to read so
> many
> > > > > >>> articles
> > > > > >>> in just few days into the new year. I think we are a point in
> the
> > > > > >>> discussion where a pretty clear point of
> agreement/disagreement,
> > > and
> > > > > >>> therefore of possibility for growth, has been reached with
> regard
> > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>> view of perezhivanie as "an experience" and as the "working
> over
> > > > it". I
> > > > > >>> think that to allow as many as possible to follow, and
> hopefully
> > > also
> > > > > >>> engage, I think it will be helpful to bring the diverse
> > > perspectives
> > > > > and
> > > > > >>> theoretical accounts to matter in accounting for some actual
> > > > material.
> > > > > >>> And
> > > > > >>> there are a number of cases described in the articles,
> including
> > > > Marc's
> > > > > >>> case of a teacher, as well as everyday facts, such as those
> > brought
> > > > by
> > > > > >>> Beth, and in Beth's article...
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> I take the task for myself too, but Saturday morning need to
> > attend
> > > > to
> > > > > >>> other things!
> > > > > >>> A
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> ________________________________________
> > > > > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > edu
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>> Sent: 07 January 2017 18:26
> > > > > >>> To: Andy Blunden; Peter Smagorinsky; eXtended Mind, Culture,
> > > > Activity;
> > > > > >>> Larry Purss
> > > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Happy New Year and Perezhivanie!
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Andy, Peter, i hope the intention to move beyond politeness to
> > > > struggle
> > > > > >>> with this topic materializes.
> > > > > >>> In this vein i want to introduce exploration of the ‘excess’ of
> > > > actual
> > > > > >>> over intended meaning as he sketched his introduction to
> > > > ‘experience’.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Citing Dewey, Alfredo says that this excess of actual learning
> > over
> > > > > >>> intended learning INCLUDES what Dewey refers to as ‘attitudes’
> > and
> > > > > these
> > > > > >>> ‘attitudes’ are FUNDAMENTALLY what count in the future.
> > > > > >>> Alfredo and Roth then add this summary statement :
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> There is therefore, a need to theorize experience in terms that
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > >>> assume control and rationality as the sine qua non of learning.
> > It
> > > > also
> > > > > >>> implies a need to develop analytical accounts that retain the
> > > > > >>> ‘uncertainty’
> > > > > >>> that is an ‘integral part’ of human experience.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Where are Alfredo and Roth leading us with this sketch of
> > > experience?
> > > > > To
> > > > > >>> highlight ‘attitudes’ that occur in the excess of actual over
> > > > intended
> > > > > >>> learning? The word ‘attitudes’ generates images of (atmosphere)
> > and
> > > > > >>> (moods)
> > > > > >>> that ‘flow’ like cascading waterfalls that can be imaged as
> > (force)
> > > > or
> > > > > as
> > > > > >>> (receptive). Attitudes that flow to places where they are
> > received
> > > > > >>> within a
> > > > > >>> certain attitude of care and concern. Not as forceful an image
> as
> > > > > moving
> > > > > >>> only with control and rationality. Describing ‘weaker’
> thought
> > > that
> > > > > >>> remains uncertain but that also opens us to the other’s peril
> and
> > > > > plight.
> > > > > >>> Possibly a post-analytic motion that exceeds the intended by
> > > > > >>> living-through
> > > > > >>> the actual that develops ‘attitudes’ that are fundamentally
> what
> > > > count
> > > > > >>> for
> > > > > >>> the future.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> From: Andy Blunden
> > > > > >>> Sent: January 7, 2017 5:00 AM
> > > > > >>> To: Peter Smagorinsky; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Happy New Year and Perezhivanie!
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> OK Peter, what you say is all very true I am sure, but it
> > > > > >>> entails conflating activity and action (as mass nouns) and
> > > > > >>> context and mediation, and makes the required distinction
> > > > > >>> much like one could find multiple meanings for the word
> > > > > >>> "and" by listing the different phrases and clauses which can
> > > > > >>> be linked by "and."
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Andy
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >>> Andy Blunden
> > > > > >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy
> > > > > >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-
> > > > decision-making
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> On 7/01/2017 11:42 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Let me try to illustrate.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Reading as mediated action: The cultural-historical
> > > > > >>>> context of reading mediates how one’s attention and
> > > > > >>>> response are channeled in socially constructed ways. So,
> > > > > >>>> in one setting, say at home or reading in the company of
> > > > > >>>> friends, a novel might bring a reader to tears, or invite
> > > > > >>>> readers to share personal stories that parallel those of
> > > > > >>>> the plot lines, or laugh out loud. But another setting, a
> > > > > >>>> formal school or university class, would have historical
> > > > > >>>> values and practices that mute emotional and personal
> > > > > >>>> responses, and promote a more sober, analytic way of
> > > > > >>>> reading and talking that fits with specific historical
> > > > > >>>> critical conventions and genres, and discourages others.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Reading as mediating action: The act of reading can be
> > > > > >>>> transformational. In reading about an talking about a
> > > > > >>>> character’s actions, a reader might reconsider a value
> > > > > >>>> system, become more sympathetic to real people who
> > > > > >>>> resemble oppressed characters, etc. In other words,
> > > > > >>>> reading a text may serve a mediational process in which
> > > > > >>>> textual ideas and exemplars enable a reader to think
> > > > > >>>> differently.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> *From:*Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net]
> > > > > >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 7, 2017 6:28 AM
> > > > > >>>> *To:* Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>; eXtended Mind,
> > > > > >>>> Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Happy New Year and Perezhivanie!
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Can you explain in a paragraph or two,. Peter, rather than
> > > > > >>>> asking us all to read 10,000 words to extract an answer?
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Andy
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Andy Blunden
> > > > > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> > > > > >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-
> > > > decision-making
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> On 7/01/2017 11:23 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Andy and others, I tried to work out the
> mediated/mediating
> > > > > >>>> question
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> in the area of reading....see if this helps.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Smagorinsky, P., & O'Donnell-Allen, C. (1998). Reading as
> > > > > mediated
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> and mediating action: Composing meaning for literature through
> > > > > multimedia
> > > > > >>> interpretive texts. Reading Research Quarterly, 33, 198-226.
> > > > Available
> > > > > >>> athttp://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/RRQ/RRQ1998.pdf
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> From:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> [mailto:
> > > > > xmca-l-bounces@
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Sent: Friday, January 6, 2017 7:12 PM
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> To:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.
> edu
> > >
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Happy New Year and Perezhivanie!
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> I have never understood this supposed distinction,
> Alfredo,
> > > > > between
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> "mediated activity" and "mediating activity" given that all
> > > activity
> > > > is
> > > > > >>> mediated and all activity mediates.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Also, could you spell out what you mean by the "tension"
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> between perezhivanie as meaning and perezhivanie as
> > struggle.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Andy
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> ------------------------------
> > ------------------------------
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Andy Blunden
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy
> >
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> decision-making
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> On 5/01/2017 6:26 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Thanks Marc for your careful response.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> I am familiar to Vygotsky's notion of cultural
> > mediation
> > > > and
> > > > > I
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> am aware and acknowledge that it was elaborated as a means to
> > > > overcome
> > > > > >>> dualism, and that it is not analog to a computational approach.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> When I brought the computing analogy, I did so with
> > > regard
> > > > > not
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> to the concept of cultural mediation in general, but to the way
> > it
> > > > can
> > > > > be
> > > > > >>> (and is) deployed analytically. I react to what it seems to me
> a
> > > > > >>> dichotomy
> > > > > >>> between a "meaning" as something that is static (thereby a form
> > of
> > > > > >>> "representation" or reflection of the relation with the
> > environment
> > > > > >>> instead
> > > > > >>> ofrefraction) and the experiencing-as-struggling, which is
> > > > > described
> > > > > >>> astransformation or change. If so, mediation here would seem
> to
> > be
> > > > > part
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>> a methodological device that first dissects "a type of meaning"
> > > from
> > > > "a
> > > > > >>> type of activity" (or a given state from the process that
> changes
> > > > that
> > > > > >>> state), and then unites it by adding the term "mediation." And
> > this
> > > > may
> > > > > >>> be
> > > > > >>> my misreading, but in that (mis)reading (which perhaps is
> mostly
> > > due
> > > > to
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>> fact that in your empirical illustration only the initial and
> end
> > > > > >>> product,
> > > > > >>> i.e., perezhivanie, are described, but not the
> > > > > experiencing-as-struggle,
> > > > > >>> that is, the moving between the two), mediation here seems to
> do
> > as
> > > > > >>> analytical concept precisely what you were afraid our monism
> was
> > > > doing:
> > > > > >>> explaining nothing. Only the end products but not the process
> of
> > > > > >>> producing
> > > > > >>> perezhivanie are revealed. This may be problematic if one
> attends
> > > to
> > > > > what
> > > > > >>> Veresov argues in the paper I shared yesterday, where he
> defends
> > > the
> > > > > >>> notion
> > > > > >>> of mediation but also specifies that Vygotsky speaks of
> > *mediating
> > > > > >>> activity* (as opposed to *mediated* activity). That is, not
> > > mediation
> > > > > by
> > > > > >>> signs as products, but mediating activity as the activity of
> > > > producing
> > > > > >>> signs (which again is an activity of producing social
> relations,
> > > > > perhaps
> > > > > >>> what you refer as "holistic meanings"?). What do you think?
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> I did not think you were trying to deny the influence
> > of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Spinoza, and I do not think we ever said that Perezhivanie was
> > > > > primarily
> > > > > >>> a
> > > > > >>> move from Cartesian Dualism to Monism, as you suggest in your
> > > post. I
> > > > > >>> copy
> > > > > >>> and paste from my prior post: "The fact is that Vygotsky was
> > > > building
> > > > > a
> > > > > >>> theory on the unity of the affect and the intellect that was to
> > be
> > > > > >>> grounded
> > > > > >>> on Spinoza, and what we try to do is to explore how
> perezhivanie,
> > > as
> > > > a
> > > > > >>> concept being developed during the same period (but not
> finalised
> > > or
> > > > > >>> totally settled!), could be seen from the perspective of the
> > > > Spinozist
> > > > > >>> Vygotsky."
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> I totally believe that bringing the distinction
> between
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> perezhivanie as meaning, and perezhivanie as struggle, is
> totally
> > > > > >>> relevant,
> > > > > >>> and Beth Ferholt's vignettes of Where the Wild Things Are do
> > indeed
> > > > > >>> illustrate this. We really need to address this tension, which
> as
> > > > > Beth's
> > > > > >>> examples and as our own everyday experience shows, is a tension
> > > that
> > > > > >>> matters not just to books and to theories but to living persons
> > > > > >>> (children,
> > > > > >>> teachers), a tension that moreover is present and mentioned in
> > all
> > > > the
> > > > > >>> articles of the symposium. The papers offer different
> proposals,
> > > and
> > > > I
> > > > > >>> think is so great we have the chance to discuss them! I too, as
> > > you,
> > > > am
> > > > > >>> very interesting in hearing others about the questions you had
> > > > > concerning
> > > > > >>> sense and meaning.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Alfredo
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> From:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > >>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf
> of
> > > > Marc
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Clarà
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> <marc.clara@gmail.com> <mailto:marc.clara@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Sent: 04 January 2017 22:31
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Happy New Year and
> Perezhivanie!
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Thank you very much, Alfredo, for sharing this
> > excellent
> > > > > paper
> > > > > >>>> by
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Veresov, and thanks also for your responses, which
> > really
> > > > > >>>> helped
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> me to
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> better understand your points. My main doubt about
> your
> > > > > >>>> proposal
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> was/is caused by the statement that the idea of
> > cultural
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> mediation/mediator implies a cartesian dualism. This
> > > shocks
> > > > > me
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> because, to me, the idea of cultural mediation is
> > > > absolutely
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> crucial
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> (in fact, the keystone) for the construction of a
> > monist
> > > > (and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> scientific) psychology that does not forget mind
> –that
> > > is,
> > > > a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> cultural
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> psychology. From your response, however, I realized
> > that
> > > we
> > > > > may
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> be
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> approaching the idea of mediation in different ways.
> I
> > > talk
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> mediation and mediators in a quite restricted way.
> The
> > > > > starting
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> point
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> of my understanding of mediation is a dialectical
> > > > > relationship
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> (organic, transactional) between the subject and the
> > > world
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> (Vygotsky departs from the scheme stimulus-response, from
> > > > reflexology).
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> This relationship, that Vygotsky calls primitive
> > > > > psychological
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> functions, would be basically biological. However, in
> > > human
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> beings
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> this relationship is mediated by cultural means:
> signs
> > > and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> tools; or
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> primary, secondary and terciary artifacts. These
> > cultural
> > > > > means
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> reorganize the primitive functions (dialectic S-O
> > > > > >>>> relationship),
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> which
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> become then higher psychological functions (S-M-O)
> (see
> > > for
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> example,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> The problem of the cultural development of the child,
> > in
> > > > The
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Vygotsky
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Reader). Now, the subject, the cultural mediators,
> and
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> object form
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> an inseparable dialectical unit, so that the subject
> > acts
> > > > on
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> (transforms) the object through the prism of the
> > cultural
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> mediators,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the object acts on (transforms) the subject also
> > through
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> prism of
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the cultural mediators, and the cultural means are
> > > > themselves
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> also
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> transformed as a consequence of their mediation in
> this
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> continuous
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> dynamic dialectical tension. Here, for me, it is
> > > important
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> idea
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> that the cultural means are as material (if we
> assume a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> materialist
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> monism) as all the rest of the world; in fact, are
> > parts
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> material world which become signs or tools (and can
> be
> > > > > >>>> therefore
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> socially distributed). This permits the introduction
> of
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> scientific
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> study of mind-consciousness (as mediating systems of
> > > > signs),
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> because
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> mind is not anymore something immaterial and
> > > unobservable,
> > > > > but
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> it is
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> as material and observable as the rest of the natural
> > > > world.
> > > > > It
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> from this view that, for me, the idea of cultural
> > > mediation
> > > > > is
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> keystone of a monist psychology that includes mind.
> > Thus,
> > > > > when
> > > > > >>>> I
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> speak
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> of mediators, I refer to the cultural means which
> > mediate
> > > > in
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> S-O
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> dialectics; I am especially interested in
> > signs/secondary
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> artifacts.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Here, it is perhaps necessary to insist that when I
> > talk
> > > of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> studying
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> mediators (and their semantic structure), this
> doesn't
> > > mean
> > > > > >>>> that
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> they
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> are taken out from the activity (the flux of live) in
> > > which
> > > > > >>>> they
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> mediate (since out of activity they are not signs
> > > anymore);
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> here, I
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> think Vygotsky tries again to overcome another old
> > > > dichotomy,
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> functionalism-structuralism one. I hope that all this
> > > makes
> > > > > >>>> also
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> clear the difference between this view and that of
> computational
> > > > > >>> psychologies (which in general are profoundly and explicitly
> > > dualist
> > > > > and
> > > > > >>> not dialectic).
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Back to perezhivanie, I'm not obviously trying to
> deny
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> influence
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> of Spinoza on Vygotsky's thinking (this is explicit
> in
> > > > > >>>> Vygotsky's
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> writings, especially in “The teaching about
> emotions”,
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Vol.6 of
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the Collected Works). But I have doubts that
> Vygotsky's
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> introduction
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> of the concept of perezhivanie is to be regarded
> > > primarily
> > > > > as a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> movement towards monism (from a previous cartesian
> > > > dualism),
> > > > > >>>> and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> that
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> this movement questions the concept of cultural
> > > mediation.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Instead,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> and I think that this is in line with some of
> > > González-Rey
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> observations in his paper, my impression is that the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> introduction of
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the concept of perezhivanie responds more to a
> movement
> > > (a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> further
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> step) towards holism (something that, in my
> > > understanding,
> > > > > can
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> also be
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> found in Spinoza). Thus, I think that the word
> meaning
> > is
> > > > > still
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> unit of analysis in the last Vygotsky -and therefore,
> > the
> > > > > idea
> > > > > >>>> of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> cultural mediation is still crucial (in fact, in The
> > > > problem
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> environment, he connects the concept of perezhivanie,
> > > which
> > > > > has
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> just
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> introduced, to the development of word meaning
> > > [p.345-346,
> > > > > also
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> cited
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> in my paper]). However, in my view, in the last
> > Vygotsky
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> focus is
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> not anymore primarily on the word-meaning as formed
> for
> > > > > things
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> (or
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> collections of things, as in the ontogenetic research
> > > with
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Sakharov), but the focus is now in the formation of meaning for
> > > > > holistic
> > > > > >>> situations.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Best regards,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Marc.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> 2017-01-03 19:16 GMT+01:00 Alfredo Jornet Gil<
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Hi Marc, all,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> thanks for joining and for your interesting work,
> > > > which I
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> follow
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> since I became aware of it. I appreciate the way
> in
> > > > your
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> paper you
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> show careful and honest attention to the texts of
> > the
> > > > > >>>> authors
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> involved, but perhaps most of all I appreciate
> that
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> paper makes
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the transformational dimension related to
> struggle
> > > and
> > > > > >>>> change
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> salient, a dimension all papers deemed central to
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> perezhivanie. And I
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> have learned more about Vasilyuk by reading your
> > > paper.
> > > > > But
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> I also
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> see that we have approached the question of
> > > > perezhivanie
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> differently
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> and I think that addressing the questions that
> you
> > > > raise
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> concerning
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> our article may be a good way to both respond and
> > > > discuss
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> your paper.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> I am aware that our use of the term monism may be
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> problematic to
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> some, and N. Veresov, who has recently written
> > about
> > > > this
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> (see
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> attached article), warns against the dangers of
> > > simply
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> moving from
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> dualism into an undifferentiating monism that
> > > > relativizes
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> everything,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> making development un-studiable. This seems to be
> > the
> > > > way
> > > > > >>>> in
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> which
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> you have understood our argument, and of course
> > this
> > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> what we are or want to be doing.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Probably many will think that *dialectical
> > > materialism*
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> rather than
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> monism is the proper term, and I could agree with
> > > them;
> > > > > we
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> do in fact
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> use dialectical materialism there and elsewhere.
> > Yet,
> > > > we
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> wanted to
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> emphasise the Spinozist influence (an influence
> > that
> > > > also
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> runs
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> through Marx) and so we found it appropriate to
> use
> > > the
> > > > > >>>> term
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> monism,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> a term that Vygotsky uses before arguing that
> > Spinoza
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> "develops an essentially materialistic view"
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> (Collected Works, Vol. 6, p. 124). For us, the
> aim
> > is
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> working out
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> ways to empirically examine and formulate
> problems
> > in
> > > > > ways
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> that do
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> not reify a mind-body dualism.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Although overcoming dualism is foundational to
> the
> > > CHAT
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> paradigm, I
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> would however not say that Vygotsky did get to
> > solve
> > > > all
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> problems that Cartesian dualism had created for
> > > > > psychology,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> even
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> though he recognised those problems brilliantly
> as
> > > > early
> > > > > as
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> in the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> "Crisis". It should suffice to cite Vygotsky's
> own
> > > > > remarks,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> which we quote in the paper (and which A.N.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Leont'ev mentions in the introduction to the
> > > collected
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> works), where
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Vygotsky explicitly critiques some of his own
> prior
> > > > ideas
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> for failing
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> to overcome dualism. We agree with those who,
> like
> > F.
> > > > G.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Rey, see
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Vygotsky's project as a developing rather than
> as a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> finalised one.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> The fact is that Vygotsky was building a theory
> on
> > > the
> > > > > >>>> unity
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> of the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> affect and the intellect that was to be grounded
> on
> > > > > >>>> Spinoza,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> and what
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> we try to do is to explore how perezhivanie, as a
> > > > concept
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> being
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> developed during the same period (but not
> finalised
> > > or
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> totally
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> settled!), could be seen from the perspective of
> > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Spinozist Vygotsky.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> As you note, in our article we argue that, if one
> > > takes
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Spinozist
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> one-substance approach, classical concepts used
> in
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> non-classical
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> psychology, at least in the way they are commonly
> > > used
> > > > in
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the current
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> literature, should be revised. One such concept
> is
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> mediation. And I
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> personally do not have much of a problem when
> > > mediation
> > > > > is
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> used to
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> denote the fundamental fact that every thing
> exists
> > > > > always
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> through
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> *another*, never in and of itself. But I do think
> > > that
> > > > it
> > > > > >>>> is
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> problematic to identify MEDIATORS, such as "a
> > > meaning",
> > > > > as
> > > > > >>>> a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> means to
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> account for or explain developmental processes
> and
> > > > > learning
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> events,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> precisely because it is there, at least in my
> view,
> > > > that
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> dualism creeps in.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> For example, I find it paradoxical that you are
> > > > concerned
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> that our
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> monist approach risks turning perezhivanie into a
> > > > useless
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> category
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> because it may be used to explain everything and
> > > > nothing,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> and yet you
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> do not seem to have a problem using the term
> > > mediation
> > > > to
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> account for
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the transformation of perezhivanie without
> clearly
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> elaborating on how
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> mediation does change anything or what it looks
> > like
> > > > as a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> real
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> process. How is it different saying that a
> > > perezhivanie
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> mediates the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> experiencing-as-struggle from simply saying that
> it
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> "affects" or
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> "determines" it? Indeed, if perezhivanie mediates
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> experiencing-as-struggle, does not
> > > > > >>>> experiencing-as-struglgle
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> too
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> mediate perezhivanie? And do not both may be said
> > to
> > > > > >>>> mediate
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> development, or development mediate them? Is not this
> explaining
> > > > > >>> everything
> > > > > >>> and nothing?
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> I do believe you can argue that there is a
> > difference
> > > > > >>>> between
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> mediation and classical psychology's cause-effect
> > > > > >>>> relations,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> but to
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> show this you need to dig into the dialectical
> > > > > >>>> underpinnings
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> of the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> theory. In your paper, you offer a nice analysis
> > of a
> > > > > >>>> lovely
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> case of
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> a teacher who, in dealing with a challenge with
> one
> > > of
> > > > > her
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> students,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> changes her perezhivanie. I think you can rightly
> > > argue
> > > > > >>>> that
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> there is
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> a semiotic transformation, and I fully support
> your
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> statement that by
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> studying discourse we can empirically approach
> > > > questions
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> psychological development. The contradictions you
> > > show
> > > > as
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> being
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> involved and resolved resonate really well with
> > what
> > > I
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> experience as
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> a parent or as a teacher in the classroom. Yet,
> > > without
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> unpacking
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> what this "mediation" taking place between one
> > > > > perezhivanie
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> and the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> next one means as a concrete and real, the same
> > > > analysis
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> could be done taking an information processing approach:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> there is an situation that is processed
> > > (represented?)
> > > > in
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> one way,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> which then leads to a (cognitive) dissonance, and
> > > then
> > > > > >>>> there
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> is a
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> cognitive resolution by means of which the
> > situation
> > > is
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> presented
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> differently in consciousness (indeed, when seen
> in
> > > this
> > > > > >>>> way,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the term
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> perezhivanie and the term "representation" become
> > > > almost
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> indistinguishable). How is mediation, as an
> > > analytical
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> concept,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> helping here? And most importantly to the
> question
> > of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> perezhivanie,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> how is this analysis going to show the internal
> > > > > connection
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> between
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> intellect and affect that Vygotsky formulates as
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> constitutive of the notion of perezhivanie?
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> I believe that the key lies in understanding what
> > > > > Vygotsky
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> means when
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> he says that perezhivanie is a unit of analysis.
> I
> > > will
> > > > > not
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> repeat
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> here what already is written in at least a couple
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> articles in
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the special issue (Blunden, ours), that is the
> > > > difference
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> between
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> analysis by elements and unit analysis (Vygotsky
> > > > 1987). A
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> unit
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> analysis approach is consistent with Spinoza, for
> > > whom
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> cause-effect
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> explanations were not adequate, requiring instead
> > an
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> understanding of
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> self-development, perezhivanie as a kernel cell
> for
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> development
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> of personality. And I think you may be after this
> > in
> > > > your
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> article in
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> suggesting a form of continuous movement from
> > > > > perezhivanie
> > > > > >>>> to
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> experiencing-as-struggle. But perhaps the major
> > > > > difficulty
> > > > > >>>> I
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> find is that, in positing Vygotsky's perezhivanie as "a type of
> > > > > meaning"
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> and Vasilyuk's perezhivanie (or
> > > > experiencing-as-struggle)
> > > > > >>>> as
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> a "type
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> of activity," it is difficult not to see here a
> > > > division
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> between
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> product and process, a division that then is
> > > > analytically
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> bridged by
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the addition of a third term, mediation, that
> > should
> > > > > bring
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> back the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> real movement between the product and the
> process.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> A different approach involves considering the
> > > concrete
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> extension of
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> actual living and lived social relations, and
> look
> > at
> > > > > them
> > > > > >>>> as
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> generative phenomena. What is there in the
> > encounter
> > > > > >>>> between
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Carla
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> and the child that leads to change? For it is not
> > > > inside
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> mind,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> but in real life, in consciousness as the real
> > > relation
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> between people, that Carla is changed.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> How is the semantic structure that you nicely
> > present
> > > > and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> attribute
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> to Carla a product of the social relation between
> > her
> > > > and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the child?
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> I think that to rightfully situate perezhivanie
> as
> > a
> > > > > >>>> concept
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> in a
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Vygotskian framework, we ought to address its
> > > relation
> > > > to
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the genetic
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> law of development.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> There is much more to disentangle, but this is
> long
> > > > > enough.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> I hope I
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> have succeeded in making clear these ideas.
> Thanks
> > so
> > > > > much
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> for
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> engaging in the discussion!
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Alfredo
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> ________________________________________
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> From:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > >>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on
> > behalf
> > > of
> > > > > >>>> Marc
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Clarà
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> <marc.clara@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>>> <mailto:marc.clara@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Sent: 02 January 2017 22:14
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Happy New Year and
> > > Perezhivanie!
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Hi, all, and thank you so much, Alfredo, for your
> > > kind
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> invitation to
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> participate in this discussion. My paper in the
> MCA
> > > > > special
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> issue
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> focuses on a distinction between a type of
> > activity,
> > > > > which
> > > > > >>>> I
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> argue
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> that is what Vasilyuk called *perezhivanie*
> > > > > (experiencing)
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> and a type
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> of semiotic mediator, which I argue that is what
> > > > > Vygotsky,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> in The
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Problem of the Environment, called
> *perezhivanie.*
> > I
> > > > > argue,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> following
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Vasilyuk, that in experiencing activities
> > (Vasilyuk's
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> perezhivanie),
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> this type of mediator is profoundly transformed –
> > in
> > > > > fact,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> that
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> experiencing activities consist of the semiotic
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> transformation of this type of mediator.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> As Veresov and Fleer argue in their commentary,
> > > > > >>>> perezhivanie
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> (as a
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> type of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> mediator) is for me a psychological phenomenon,
> one
> > > > which
> > > > > >>>> is
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> course conceptualized from a specific theoretical
> > > > > >>>> framework.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> But the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> phenomenon is also visible from other theoretical
> > > > > >>>> frameworks
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> as well,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> as I mention in the paper. This phenomenon is my
> > main
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> interest, and
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> it is from this interest that I arrived at the
> > > concept
> > > > of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> perezhivanie (not the other way around).
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Now, the phenomenon is that at least emotion,
> > > > reasoning,
> > > > > >>>> and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> volition
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> (formation of conscious purposes) seem to be
> > > decisively
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> mediated by
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> holistic situational meaning. My current research
> > > > concern
> > > > > >>>> is
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> trying
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> to find ways to study and understand how this
> > > mediation
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> occurs and
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> how these semiotic mediators are transformed and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> distributed. From
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> this view, I think that experiencing activities
> > > > > (Vasilyuk's
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> perezhivanie) may provide a good terrain to study
> > > these
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> issues
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> (especially regarding the mediation of emotion),
> > as I
> > > > > tried
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> to exemplify in the paper.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Studying semiotic mediation, however, is of
> course
> > > not
> > > > > >>>> easy.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Following Vygotsky, I assume that extended
> > discourse
> > > is
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> manifestation of thinking within certain
> > > psychological
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> conditions
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> (Vygotsky's Thinking and Speech, chapter 7), and
> I
> > > also
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> assume the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Vygotsky's law of the unity of the structure and
> > > > function
> > > > > >>>> of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> thinking
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> (Vygotsky's Thinking and Speech, chapter 6). From
> > > these
> > > > > two
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> assumptions, I propose that meaning (and its
> > > functions
> > > > in
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> human
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> activity) can be scientifically studied by
> > > structurally
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> analyzing the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> narratives generated by subjects, considering
> that
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> discourse
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> produced in the narrative is the point of
> departure
> > > of
> > > > > this
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> study,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> but that considerable analytical work must be
> done
> > to
> > > > > move
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> from this
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> discourse to the full characterization of
> meaning.
> > It
> > > > is
> > > > > in
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> that
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> point where I find useful the work developed by
> > > > Greimas,
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> usefulness of which I only suggest in the paper.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> >From this background, I found many interesting
> > ideas
> > > > and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> questions
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> in the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> other papers of the special issue. In this first
> > > post I
> > > > > >>>> will
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> propose
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> two of them for possible discussion. The first
> one
> > > was
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> raised by
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> González-Rey, when he introduces, in connection
> > with
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> perezhivanie,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the concepts of personality, and especially, of
> > > sense.
> > > > > So,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> which is
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the conceptual (and-or
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> phenomenal) relation between perezhivanie and
> > sense?
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> González-Rey
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> suggests that both concepts are somewhat similar
> > (and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> overcome by the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> concept of “subjective sense”); my opinion,
> partly
> > > > > >>>> expressed
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> in my
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> commentary, is that perezhivanie is a type of
> > > meaning,
> > > > > >>>> which
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> includes
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> different levels of depth, and that sense
> > corresponds
> > > > to
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> deepest
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> level of meaning (which can be characterized as a
> > > > system
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> semic
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> oppositions). Therefore, sense wouldn't be in
> > > > opposition
> > > > > to
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> meaning
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> (as “a microcosm of human consciousness”, as
> > Kozulin
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> remembers in his
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> commentary), although it would be in opposition
> to
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> manifested meaning (the surface level of meaning).
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> The second issue was raised by Roth and Jornet,
> > and I
> > > > > think
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> it goes
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> beyond the issue of perezhivanie itself. If I
> > > > understand
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> them well,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> they argue that Vygotsky's core proposal of
> > cultural
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> mediation is
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> influenced by the Cartesian dualism
> (mind-matter),
> > > and
> > > > > >>>> that a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> promising approach to Cultural Psychology would
> be
> > a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Spinozist
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> monism. I am actually very interested on the
> issue
> > of
> > > > > which
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> epistemological position can best substantiate
> the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> construction of a
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> cultural psychology, and that's why I feel
> inclined
> > > to
> > > > > take
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> opportunity to ask for your opinions about that.
> > > About
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> proposal
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> of Roth and Jornet, I have some doubts. First, I
> > > don't
> > > > > see
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> why
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Vygotsky's proposals can be seen as dualist (in
> the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Cartesian sense)
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> -I suspect that it is because of the analytical
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> distinctions?.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Anyway, in my understanding, Vygotsky explicitly
> > > > assumes
> > > > > a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> materialist monism (for example in The Crisis),
> and
> > > in
> > > > > fact
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> he constructs his proposal on mediation upon reflexology, which
> > > also
> > > > > >>> explicitly assumed a materialist monism (e.g.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Sechenov). Would a Spinozist monism be a better
> > point
> > > > of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> departure? I
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> don't know, in my understanding it is a more
> > idealist
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> monism, and I
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> don't clearly see what could be gained. In my
> > > opinion,
> > > > a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> scientific
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> psychology which includes the study of mind is
> only
> > > > > >>>> possible
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> if any
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> type of monism is assumed. However, in my view,
> > for a
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> scientific
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> psychology, the ontological nature of the world
> is
> > > > > perhaps
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> less
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> important (it is an issue for metaphysics?), and
> I
> > am
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> inclined to assume a neutral monism (e.g. Russell).
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> So from this view, a materialist monism and a
> > > Spinozist
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> monism
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> wouldn't be so different, so from both views it
> > could
> > > > be
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> assumed that
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> all is of the same nature and all is similarly
> > > knowable
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> (including
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> mind) [which is the ontological nature of the
> world
> > > and
> > > > > to
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> what
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> degree it is knowable are issues that can be left
> > to
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> philosophy].
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> However, in my opinion, this does not mean that,
> > > while
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> assuming a
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> monism, analytical distinctions cannot be done
> when
> > > > > >>>> studying
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> world. In that sense, I had the impression that
> > Roth
> > > > and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Jornet
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> tended to dilute analytical distinctions in the
> > name
> > > of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> monism; I
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> repeat that I don't know if I understood them
> well,
> > > but
> > > > > if
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> this was
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the case, in my opinion, analysis would be
> > impossible
> > > > > >>>> within
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the new
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> psychology suggested by Roth and Jornet, and,
> > > regarding
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> perezhivanie,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> there would be the danger, noted by Vygotsky in
> The
> > > > > Crisis
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> and
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> cautioned by Kozulin in his commentary, that by
> > > meaning
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> everything, perezhivanie ends by meaning nothing.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Best regards and happy new year,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Marc.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> 2017-01-02 9:12 GMT+01:00 Alfredo Jornet Gil<
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Dear all,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> I would like to join David, Luisa, Ana, Henry
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> others to wish
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> you all a Happy New Year! May it be full of
> > joy,
> > > > > peace,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> and opportunity.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> I also would like to begin the year
> announcing
> > > our
> > > > > >>>> first
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> ?MCA
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> article discussion, ?although in fact
> > corresponds
> > > > to
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> last issue
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> of the year
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> we
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> just passed, Issue 4 on Perezhivanie. This
> is a
> > > > very
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> special
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> *special* issue, not only because its topic
> has
> > > > > raised
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> lots of
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> interest lately in
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> CHAT community but also because, greatly
> > > > coordinated
> > > > > by
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Andy Blunden
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> and the rest of the editorial team, the issue
> > > takes
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> form of a
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> symposium where authors get the chance to
> > present
> > > > and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> respond to
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> each others' ideas on the subject. In my
> view,
> > > this
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> allows having a
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> rich and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> multidimensional
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> approach to a subject as important as
> > > perezhivanie.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Following with the dialogical spirit in which
> > the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> special issue was
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> assembled, we will focus on one lead article,
> > but
> > > > > >>>> hoping
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> to also
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> engage ideas and insights present in or
> > relevant
> > > to
> > > > > >>>> other
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> contributions in the issue. ?Marc Clarà's
> > > "Vygotsky
> > > > > and
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Vasilyuk on
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Perezhivanie: Two Notions and One Word" will
> be
> > > our
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> focus. The
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> article very nicely engages the lead work of
> > > > > Vygotsky,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> but also the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> less known ??(?in educational literature) but
> > > > totally
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> relevant works
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> of psychologist ?F. Vasilyuk and semiotician
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> A.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> J. Greimas, mobilising a number of key
> concepts
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> including those of
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> semiotic
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> mediation and transformation.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> ?In addition to Marc, who will soon join us,
> I
> > > have
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> encouraged some
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> of
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> other authors in the special issue to also
> join
> > > as
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> "relevant
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> others," if time and circumstances allow
> them.
> > > > Let's
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> hope that this
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> will help keeping the symposium spirit up.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Marc's article is attached to this e-mail and
> > > will
> > > > be
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> made open
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> access at the T&F pages as soon as people is
> > back
> > > > > from
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> the holidays.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> The T&F link
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> is
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> this:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/
> > > > doi/full/10.1080/10749039
> > > > > .
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> 2016.1186194
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> The link to the MCA Forum pages, where we
> > > announce
> > > > > our
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> discussions
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> and other xmca things, is here:
> > > > > >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> I wish us all a very productive and
> interesting
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> discussion.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Alfredo
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
More information about the xmca-l
mailing list