[Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie of perezhivanie (Ilyenkov)

[Alfredo Jornet Gil]

I know this takes it a bit away from the article for discussion, but the notion of the "ideal" that Michael brings up below—which I understand is consistent with Ilyenkov's descriptions in Dialectics of the Ideal—is interesting. Recently, Ilyenkov has been brought up in the list to critique semiotic takes in CHAT, but Michael now uses the term "synecdochical function", where a thing participating in a relation "stands for" the relation as a whole. And so, a question comes up, is this not a semiotic relation, the relation between a sign and the thing it stands for? And how is Ilyenkov's (and the Marx Ilyenkov talks about) different from the semiotic notions that Sasha and others dislike? 

Ilyenkov notes that although the "meaning" of the words Marx uses when describing "value" as "ideal" is the same the meaning philosophers like Plato or Hegel before him used, the "concept" (which Ilyenkov clarifies is "the ways of understanding this meaning") that Marx proposes is different. The difference is that ideal, or in the specific case of economy, "value," is not the material thing as it appears in the mind, but rather a completely objective relation that exists between two things and that is expressed in that material thing. As such, the ideals not the result of a conscious mind that subjectively projects it, but exists objectively and is established outside consciousness:

"According to Marx, of course, the ideality of the value-form consists not in
the fact that this form represents a mental phenomenon existing only in the
brain of the commodity-owner or theoretician, but in the fact that in this case,
as in many others, the corporeally palpable form of the thing (for example, a
coat) is only a form of expression of quite a different ‘thing’ (linen, as a value)
with which it has nothing in common. The value of the linen is represented,
expressed, ‘embodied’ in the form of a coat, and the form of the coat is the ‘ideal
or represented form’ of the value of the linen.

This is a completely objective relationship (as it is entirely independent of the
commodity-owner’s consciousness and will, established outside his consciousness),
within which the natural form of commodity B becomes the value-form of
commodity A, or the body of commodity B acts as a mirror to the value of commodity
A, the authorised representative of its ‘value’ nature, of the ‘substance’
which is ‘embodied’ both here and there" (Ilyenkov, 2012, Dialectics of the Ideal, p. 57)

What is "represented" as a thing then is "a form of human activity, a form of life-activity that [people] perform together, developing quite spontaneously, 'out of the sight of consciousness', and materially established in the form of the relationship between things" (p. 58).

When I was reading and commenting on James Ma's notes recently, I was perhaps attributing (or rather suspicious that I might have reasons to attribute) to him the kind of ideality that Ilyenkov critiques (the one that is ideal because it's in the mind rather than in the relation between things and part of people's relations). But James defended his position appealing precisely to dialectical materialism; in the same way that Sasha (and others) might see in Vygotsky's a notion of sign as involving "randomness" (semiotics as conventionalism), only to lead David K. to argue that "Vygotsky does not accept conventionality as a pervasive principle in language" (cited from many posts ago). But what Ilyenkov suggests to me is that there is a way to move forward without having to reject one (semiotics) to achieve the other (dialectical materialist psychology). Rather, the "concept" of sign, or semiotics, needs to be clarified in proper materialist terms. Whether doing so means "transcending" (because he had not) or "translating" (because he already had) Vygotsky, is of course debatable, but does not appear as relevant as to actually pursue that path. As Huw also suggested, I read Michael's piece as moving in that direction. 
And this seems long enough for a Dec 23rd post,
Alfredo


From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Wolff-Michael Roth <wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com>
Sent: 19 December 2017 02:00
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie of perezhivanie

Hi all,
there might be some light on the question of perezhivanie of perezhivanie
from the German Ideology. Marx/Engels write:

Where there exists a relation, it exists for me, the animal does not
"relate" to anything and not at all. For the animal its relation to others
does not relate as relation.
(((Wo ein Verhältnis existiert,
da existiert es für mich, das Tier „verhält" sich zu Nichts und überhaupt
nicht.
Für das Tier existiert sein Verhältnis zu andern nicht als Verhältnis"
p.30))))

As I said before, in phenomenological (post-Husserlian) phenomenology,
there is Being, but consciousness can be only with beings (things) that
allow past being to be made present again. This making present is central
to consciousness in the formulations of Husserl and Mead (from whom we can
learn a lot). The organism-relation exists in the animal world, but not for
the animal and not as relation.

Marx, in *Capital* shows how the ideal emerges. It is a human-human
relation that reflects itself in human-thing relations, and the human-thing
relation reflects itself in human-human relations (that's why we have
perezhivanie of perezhivanie). Some thing participating in the relation
then has synecdochical function in that it comes to stand for the relation
as a whole and especially for anything ideal (use-value for commodities,
meanings for words, etc)

Or so it makes sense to me

Michael







Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
<https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>*

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 4:13 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:

> A question for Michael and David concerning consciousness as perezhivanie
> of
> perezhivanie ---
>
> I think that in one of the prior discussions of perezhivanie on xmca I gave
> the following example of my early encounter with the term, and want to
> introduce it again to get some clarity about the current discussion of
> Michael's article.
>
> Back when Russian rockets were heading to Cuba I used to commute from
> (Lenin, nee Sparrow Hills) to the main campus of MGU, I would take a bus in
> cold
> weather to avoid a long walk from the Metro. The bus was so crowded that at
> its second stop outside the downtown MGU campus, you would be lucky to be
> able to cram into the bus and it only got worse until nearing the campus.
>
> I seem to remember that if asked about the bus ride, I would either say
> that it was a kashmar (the French got to Moscow at an earlier date) or that
> I "perezhil" (past tense) the 111 bus. And as I said it, I would re-live,
> so to speak, my having lived through that intense, often unpleasant,
> experience. I think it would be grammatical and sensible to describe my
> recounting and re-membering that "experience" as perezhivanie of
> perzhivanie.
>
> Perhaps this is an inappropriate example. I was not using the term as part
> of a set of theoretical terms (Vasilyuk had not written his book on
> perezhivanie and I do not recall being present for a discussion, either of
> why Leontiev was right and Vygotsky wrong (or vice versa) about
> perezhivanie. And I hope I was paying attention and conscious of what I was
> doing both times I used the term.
>
> Perhaps in the early Vygotsky where the perezhivanie of perezhivanie
> comment appears he was using the term, perezhivanie in an everyday sense of
> the term, but later it was used as a scientific term?
>
> David -- where does LSV write that consciousness begins at birth? Seems
> important to know.
>
> Thanks for the interesting discussion.
>
> mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> For those like myself who never got past intro chemistry or physics, but
> are interested in qualitative research,
> this site might be of interest. I notice there is a blog on the topic as
> well as a relevant resource page. Perfect prep for reading Martin's book!
> :-)
>
> mike
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