[Xmca-l] Re: Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4 article for discussion

[David Kellogg]

James--

I think that "meaning is doing" is not a philosophical principle. When you
talk to Halliday, he avoids philosophical questions unless they bear quite
directly on linguistic ones. So for example. whether "matter" and "meaning"
are two different substances only comes up when you are talking about
language stratification and not when you are talking about cosmology. Some
people, particularly in China, have tried to turn him into a philosopher;
he has always resisted this. Even his essay on his Marxism (in the
Bloomsbury Companion to Halliday) is mostly about his old comrades and not
much about his own thinking. When he talks about his notion of
consciousness (e.g. in the context of when and how children develop a
content plane distinct from an expression plane), he always mentions
Vygotsky.

I guess that to me, "meaning is doing" is really more about Halliday's
refusal to separate theory from practice, his rejection of "applied"
linguistics in favor of making linguistics appliable, his agenda for a
"general" linguistics (c.f. Vygotsky's agenda for a "general" psychology).
Not a general theory of activity, but a general linguistics, because
language is a natural whole in a way that "activity" is not (we know
instantly that something is or is not language, just as we know at a glance
that even a distant figure on the horizon is or is not a human being). But
Halliday is certainly trans-disciplinary instead of interdisciplinary: it's
always the living of life which unifies intellectual endeavours and not the
little trails we sometimes make between separate intellectual cottage
industries.

I read a lot of Sartre as a young leftist in France and Algeria in the
seventies and early eighties; the young workers I had known and admired all
knew and admired the existentialists. But to me it was not Marxist at all:
Sartre was constantly sniffing around psychoanalytic ideas (e.g. the
textile machines that have sexual fantasies through young women in
"Critique de la raison dialectique") and even racial ones (the idea of
innate culpability, which Sartre was playing with in order to excuse
indiscriminate terrorist attacks on Frenchmen in Algeria and also to
explain Lin Biao's notorious notions of "good" and "bad" class
backgrounds). I find Halliday's Marxism much more sophisticated
precisely because it is much more focused; in this too Halliday resembles
Vygotsky.



David Kellogg

Recent Article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity* 24 (4) 'Metaphoric,
Metonymic, Eclectic, or Dialectic? A Commentary on “Neoformation: A
Dialectical Approach to Developmental Change”'

Free e-print available (for a short time only) at

http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full


On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 5:02 AM, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi David, Halliday's "meaning is doing" would sit well with existentialism
> - humans call upon action in order to identify themselves (e.g. Sartre).
> I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
> James
>
> On 17 December 2017 at 21:52, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, meaning is doing. But my doings are not Vygotsky's, and not
> > Wolff-Michael's. Another way to say this is that a thread is a text in
> > context; my text has for its context (its "shang-xia wen", that is, its
> > "above below text") Vygotsky's and Wolff-Michael's.
> >
> > That means that Vygotsky's and Wolff-Michael's texts are not text but
> > context for me. They are something outside of my semantics and beyond my
> > intentions; they belong to the semantics and obey the intentions of
> > another. In order to intertwine them in a thread and interweave them in a
> > pattern, I have to use my semantics and my intention to refer to their
> > texts in a way that recuperates at least part of their own semantics and
> > their own intentions. If I fail to refer, I fail to intertwine. If I
> > substitute my own thought for theirs, I cannot join the pattern.
> >
> > For example, Wolff-Michael uses what I said about the stinking corpse,
> > which I used to evoke a dead rabbit "eaten" by soil, to evoke an argument
> > in which someone plunges a knife into someone else's chest. This leaves
> on
> > a passer-by the general impression that I have somehow behaved
> aggressively
> > (as Huw also did). But plunging a knife into an opponent does not
> > accurately refer to anything that I ever meant, intended, or did, and it
> > does nothing to incorporate my strand: it is only a way of unpicking my
> > strand from the thread and excluding it from the pattern.
> >
> > Fortunately, I am in good company! Wolff-Michael has used Vygotsky's
> remark
> > about "perezhivanie of perezhivanie", a remark which was meant to break
> > the sacred tablets of reflexology, to suggest that Vygotsky didn't
> believe
> > in consciousness at birth. He's used Vygotsky's remark about molecules as
> > units of analysis for chemistry to show that Vygotsky did intend a
> > one-size-fits-all unit of analysis that would work for water molecules
> and
> > for birth and for death and for everything in between. The dying Vygotsky
> > referred to Moses's words about not being allowed to set foot in the
> > promised land because he had broken the tablets given by God.
> Wolff-Michael
> > interprets these words to mean that Vygotsky repudiated his own beloved
> > creations as intellectualistic and non-Marxist. All of these use
> Vygotsky's
> > words to exclude Vygotsky's meanings from the pattern.
> >
> > Wolff-Michael want to transcend Vygotsky; I would rather translate him.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> >
> > Recent Article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity* 24 (4) 'Metaphoric,
> > Metonymic, Eclectic, or Dialectic? A Commentary on “Neoformation: A
> > Dialectical Approach to Developmental Change”'
> >
> > Free e-print available (for a short time only) at
> >
> > http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth <
> > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Huw,
> > >
> > > As a physicist and physical chemist, and as an applied mathematician, I
> > > don't have trouble other than the perhaps awkward formulation of
> quantity
> > > into quality. There are many non-linear phenomena (Andy noted them)
> where
> > > you observe this---take the Benard effect, where the water between two
> > > planes at same temp is moving randomly. You heat one plate
> continuously,
> > > and the order is the same until, all of a sudden and out of the
> continued
> > > energy increase and temp difference between the plates, a new order
> > emerges
> > > in the water movement.
> > >
> > > There are many social phenomena of this kind, and the Zeeman who uses
> > > catastrophe theory has shown how you model some of them, like peace
> into
> > > war conversation when trouble linearly increases. I guess arguments are
> > of
> > > that type, and David's story of how a living person ends up in a
> stinking
> > > corpse---after beginning to argue with another to the point that the
> > other
> > > sticks a knife into his heart---would be a nice illustration of how
> > > something innocuous slowly aggravates and then all of a sudden goes
> > through
> > > a qualitative change. Any phase change of a particular material shows
> > this,
> > > and physical chemists have nice diagrams to show the phase change that
> > come
> > > with continuous increases in some variable.
> > >
> > > About the person-environment: If you take the universe, there are no
> > forces
> > > from the outside, everything is happening on the inside of it,
> including
> > > our descriptions. If you go to Bateson or Dewey, they will tell you
> that
> > > you need to take the description into account as well in the system.
> > > Psychologists arbitrarily take the skin as the boundary. Vygotsky in
> > > Myshlenie i resh' put it around thinking-speech (unit = word-meaning),
> > > although in the same book he says that meaning is only the lowest level
> > of
> > > the more complex sense [smysl], which evolves and requires knowing the
> > > whole world.
> > >
> > > Any modern Spinozist will tell you that biology does not get us
> anywhere,
> > > and epistemology (psychology) doesn't either. Il'enkov proposes the
> > > thinking-body, but this is not a composition (addition, multiplication,
> > > synthesis) of the biological body and the mind. Again, Spinozists will
> > tell
> > > you that the physical body and thought are manifestations of substance.
> > You
> > > will find similar discussions in the materialist philosophy of Michel
> > Henry
> > > (*Incarnation: Une philosophie de la chair*), where life and the first,
> > > originary body are invisible.
> > >
> > > Concerning David's comment. My hunch would be that Vygotsky was on the
> > > verge of developing a Marxian Spinozist psychology, but he was not
> there
> > > yet. Ekaterina Yu. Zavershneva, based on reading LSV's notes, is
> > convinced
> > > that he realized his own intellectualism, and intellectualism is not
> > > Marxist.
> > >
> > > I would also think that LSV---I know David is a devotee---only went so
> > far.
> > > LSV writes: "I will die at the summit like Moses, having glimpsed the
> > > prom[ised] land but without setting foot on it. Farewell, dear
> > creations".
> > > IN 1932 he writes: "Our def[i]c[ie]ncy is not a def[i]c[ie]ncy of
> facts,
> > > but the untenability of the theory". (all quotations from Zaversheva,
> > 2010,
> > > in J Rus + East Europ Psych). He writes about his own theory as
> > untenable.
> > > We are allowed to put our feet into the promised land. We have the
> right
> > to
> > > go further, to the point of overturning what he had done.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --------------------
> > > Applied Cognitive Science
> > > MacLaurin Building A567
> > > University of Victoria
> > > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> > > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
> > >
> > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> > > <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
> > > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
> > > mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
> > >
> > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Michael,
> > > >
> > > > First, thanks for the references to both Holzkamp and Marx & Engels
> use
> > > of
> > > > "leading activity".
> > > >
> > > > Regarding the espoused emphasis of the paper, neoformation, the focus
> > > seems
> > > > to drift between a focus upon changes in qualitative behaviour that
> do
> > > not
> > > > necessitate developmental change and towards those that do. By
> > > development
> > > > I mean the formation of organised behaviours that were not previously
> > > > accessible that also implicate a larger object of activity.
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I do not find the phrase "quantity into quality" useful
> > > beyond
> > > > a priming for the relevant ingredients. The 'naive' description of
> one
> > > > thing turning into another is a change of quality, i.e. one quality
> > (not
> > > a
> > > > quantity) turning into another quality. I suppose the original
> > expression
> > > > is concerned with a taken-for-granted quality that turns into a new
> > > quality
> > > > ostensibly through the instrumentation of a change in quantity (to
> > > project
> > > > a cause-effect model).
> > > >
> > > > Regarding a study of the empirical content within the appropriate
> > > > dimensions, I would say that the account of the teacher changing
> > his/her
> > > > practices is indicative but not sufficient to identify this as a
> > > > developmental change (in the sense I use it). Also without
> identifying
> > > the
> > > > holistic character of the change(s) -- both macro and micro -- I
> think
> > > > there is more scope for attributing the changes to things other than
> > what
> > > > you have identified, or to bring these into question. A way to show
> > this
> > > > would be in terms of the teacher's broadening of his/her object of
> > > > activity/unit of analysis (which need not be larger
> materialistically,
> > > but
> > > > in fidelity). In this vein it would be interesting to consider how
> this
> > > can
> > > > be advanced upon fragmentally, i.e. from initial exposure to certain
> > > > practices that achieve things that the teacher's present methods do
> not
> > > > achieve progressing to a deeper considerations for how to achieve
> this
> > > > holistically along with the newly encroaching limitations. Also
> within
> > > the
> > > > teacher example, there is the implication that the previous methods
> > were
> > > > the teacher's own -- as we know this is not necessarily the case,
> they
> > > may
> > > > be the methods unquestionably adopted under the assumption that
> > > > institutional society knows what it is doing, hence without knowing
> > more
> > > > this could also be an awakening to the naive assumptions of a
> teaching
> > > > institution.
> > > >
> > > > There is also potential confusion here between the internal of affect
> > and
> > > > the internal of thought-based action. The pointing to an assumed
> > external
> > > > source as a stimulus for development is, from my perspective, not
> > > > necessarily the case either, whereby an internal dialogue may be
> > > maintained
> > > > to realise something new (perhaps more attributable to an adult).
> > Either
> > > > way, I would say the developee is sharing in this larger unit from
> the
> > > > outset of their 'readiness', even if they are unable to articulate it
> > --
> > > > they know enough to afford their volitional heightened concentration
> to
> > > > take them into (for them) unexplored territory (I can provide
> anecdotal
> > > > examples if you want them).
> > > >
> > > > >From a cybernetic perspective the "subject-environment unit" can be
> > > > misleading. Cybernetics would argue that it is all in the
> > > self-perpetuating
> > > > processes of the agent (the complex organism), through which the
> > > > environment manifests, i.e. the environment is only 'real' to agent
> to
> > > the
> > > > extent that it is reflected in the agent's own individuality. I take
> > > > Sasha's paper to be much supportive of this view, with perhaps some
> > > > trailing legacies (from Ilyenkov's reinvigoration), such as imputing
> > > > "material existence" to be of the same complexity (concreteness) of
> > that
> > > > which is achieved by the advanced technology of dialectics... it is,
> I
> > > > believe, a fairly harmless transition to recognise that this
> concretely
> > > > complex material existences is merely an unknown and hypothetically
> > > assumed
> > > > to be that of the most sophisticated thought of the time.
> > > >
> > > > Also I appreciate that this can be quite exhausting work and that
> > perhaps
> > > > the way you are approaching it by imputing development to
> observations
> > is
> > > > an energetically stimulating manner of working into the subject and
> its
> > > > problems. I also note that you have pulled in references from various
> > > > sources (neoformation, leading activity, crisis, environment-subject,
> > > > internal, moment) and it is quite easy for me to assume that your
> ideas
> > > > here overlap with mine. Perhaps an equally important test is whether
> > the
> > > > paper is coherent for someone who doesn't have this background.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the opportunity to read and discuss the paper.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Huw
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 16 December 2017 at 08:55, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Andy,
> > > > > Alfredo
> > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > edu
> > > >
> > > > > on behalf of Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > > > > Sent: 16 December 2017 08:43
> > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Neoformation and developmental change: Issue
> 4
> > > > > article for discussion
> > > > >
> > > > > attached, Bill
> > > > >
> > > > > a
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Andy Blunden
> > > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> > > > > On 16/12/2017 6:38 PM, Bill Kerr wrote:
> > > > > > hi Alfredo,
> > > > > > I downloaded Michael's first article and David's response. Is
> > > Michael's
> > > > > > response to David (Looking back to the Future) still available
> as a
> > > > free
> > > > > > download? When I go to the site I get an invitation to login or
> > > > purchase.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Interested in this discussion.
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Bill Kerr
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 4:03 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Steemed xmca'ers,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> the year is close to its end and we have yet to discuss a
> selected
> > > > > article
> > > > > >> from Issue 4. The choice this time is an article written by
> > > > > Wolff-Michael
> > > > > >> Roth: "Neoformation: A Dialectical Approach to Developmental
> > > Change?".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> The article, which is attached and will be made open access for
> a
> > > > brief
> > > > > >> time soon, brings up the concept of "neoformation", a Vygotskian
> > > > notion
> > > > > >> that has appeared more than once in xmca but which is not so
> > common
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > >> literature, despite having quite a methodological import in
> > > Vygotsky's
> > > > > >> writings.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I believe the topic is timely given parallel discussions and
> > > critiques
> > > > > to
> > > > > >> Vygotsky in xmca and in recent literature. Moreover, the article
> > > > brings
> > > > > >> with it a companion, David's Kellogg commentary (which is open
> > > access
> > > > > right
> > > > > >> now), and a response by Michael. So its a 3 for 1 treat!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> The whole issue is published here:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current?nav=tocList
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Michael has kindly agreed to join the conversation in the coming
> > > days,
> > > > > and
> > > > > >> I encourage you all to have a look at the paper and not to be
> shy
> > > > > bringing
> > > > > >> in comments and questions. I think this is a unique opportunity
> we
> > > > have
> > > > > for
> > > > > >> digging into the different ways in which Vygotsky's legacy may
> > live
> > > on
> > > > > in
> > > > > >> current and future CHAT and CHAT-related research/literature.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Alfredo
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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