[Xmca-l] Re: Experienced Thinkers and Perezhivanie

[Wolff-Michael Roth]

It seems to me that not perezhivanie is the big problem, but consciousness,
perezhivanie of perezhivanie (vol. 4). Perezhivanie was the take up of
Erlebnis/Erleben, not Erfahrung (experience), and Erlebnis is always of
something, thus the person-environment unit. Again, consciousness is
inherently historical, as perezhivanie of perezhivanie requires the
presence of the past. Michael


Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor

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On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
wrote:

> Hi Andy,
>
> when Snow talks about aptitudes, he is also addressing personality as a
> whole, even though his field and focus is on learning and education. So, I
> agree with you "aptitude" is an abstraction from person and activity, but
> then again, if you hold it that perezhivanie is unit of personality (as you
> do in some of your writings), then we can as well say that "aptitudes" for
> Snow are a unit of personality, for it is as a myriad of such aptitudes
> that a person becomes and can be singularised as such across a life time.
>
> Vygotsky is quite clear when he writes that, perezhivanie,
> "is a unit where, on the one hand, in and indivisible state, the
> environment is represented, i.e. that which is being experienced—a
> perezhivanie is always related to something which is found outside the
> person—and on the other hand, what is represented is how I, myself, am
> experiences this, i.e., all the personal characteristics and all the
> environmental characteristics are represented in an emotional experience"
>
> And so, if we obviate the name "perezhivanie", the unit he is describing
> quite explicitly is such that it has person and environment as its
> irreducible aspects; just as word meaning, as a unit of verbal thinking,
> has thinking and speech as its aspects. And so, I am not sure I understand
> what you mean when you say that:
>
> "Vygotsky deal with the fact that traumatic experiences impact on the
> development of the entire person, that is, they will impact on a person's
> actions in different environments, beyond that in which the traumatic
> experience was survived, and that is something which would be ruled out by
> taking "person-environment" as a unit."
>
> Beside the point that I do not agree with you that "traumatic experiences"
> is the core of what Vygotsky was discussing, even though trauma may have
> been part of it, I assume that you mean that perezhivanija also have a
> beginning and an end, and so they carry on as having an impact in how
> future experiences are had (and not just the situation in which they were
> had). But that is exactly what Snow is also saying; and I am not here
> trying to defend Snow or Vygotsky, or both. But I already included a
> quotation by Snow where he describes aptitudes as having a "propaedeutic"
> character, not  an accomplished aspect within a situation, but as a
> dispositional aspect that determines future situations, and so I don't see
> where the problem lies. I also  emphasised that Snow refers to
> person-situation rather than person-environment, and I think that is
> important, for situations are unitary events, they have beginning and end,
> and can after-the-fact be called *this* or *that* situation; they therefore
> also may become *this* or *that* experience.
>
> There was a question, whether there were some thoughts around relations
> between "experienced thinkers" and "perezhivanie". I think the points in
> common between Snow, Vygotsky, and Dewey were appropriate, for the
> "experienced" in "experienced thinkers" situates us in the realm of
> aptitude, of greater or lesser competence in performing some form of
> activity. I continue thinking that this line of thinking, even though not
> articulated in methodological terms, offers a way of addressing competence
> such that being experienced is not some internal attribute, nor an
> externally imposed one. I would like now to ask you, what are your thoughts
> on the relation between what Vera used to refer to as "experienced
> thinkers" and the concept of "perezhivanie"?
>
> Alfredo
>
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> Sent: 12 December 2017 00:03
> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Experienced Thinkers and Perezhivanie
>
> Yes, I presumed that that was what was intended - i.e., that
> a person manifests different aptitudes in the context of
> different activities. To me, introducing the phrase
> "person-environment units" is not helpful here. "Aptitude"
> is an abstraction from "person" and "activity" but one which
> forms a normal part of our perception and cognition of our
> fellow humans, and it probably takes us many years to see
> that a person is not the same person, when they are put in a
> different activity context. In "The Problem of the
> Environment," Vygotsky deal with the fact that traumatic
> experiences impact on the development of the entire person,
> that is, they will impact on a person's actions in different
> environments, beyond that in which the traumatic experience
> was survived, and that is something which would be ruled out
> by taking "person-environment" as a unit.
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> On 12/12/2017 2:07 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
> > Snow is interested in measuring aptitude taking a transactional
> perspective, and talks about person-situation units; person-situation units
> are therefore units of Aptitude.
> >
> > Snow then says that "there is therefore no detached or abstracted list
> of qualities of instructional treatments that will be equally important for
> all persons or similar list of qualities of persons that will be equally
> important for all treatments. Aptitude is the unique coalition of
> affordances and effectivities in particular person-treatment systems"
> (Snow, 1992, p. 25).
> >
> > It makes sense to me, and sounds extremely close to what Vygotsky was
> saying in his lecture on "the environment". Obviously, this is not an
> orthodox Marxist take, or else the investigation would take us to some unit
> particular to a given historically developed (in this case,
> person-treatment) system. But so neither was VYgotsky's perezhivanie, if
> only because he had not the time to work it further (although others like
> Leont'ev and Sasha had less hopes on that possibility). Yet, both ideas
> seem to me quite inspiring and informative as general heuristics with
> regard to how to proceed methodologically: if I am to studying
> intelligence, or aptitude, or experience, and I am doing so in terms of a
> unit that does not integrate within itself a transaction between person and
> situation, then I am probably going to have troubles to put back together
> what my   analyses has dismembered. Also, note that I had written
> "environment," where Snow had written "situation". I like the latter better.
> >
> > Snow, R. E. (1992). Aptitude theory: Yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
> Educational Psychologist, 27, 5–32.
> >
> > Alfredo
> > ________________________________________
> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > Sent: 11 December 2017 15:22
> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Experienced Thinkers and Perezhivanie
> >
> > Alfredo, what on Earth does it mean: "'aptitude' precisely
> > in terms of person-environment unit."?
> >
> > Surely the term "unit" implies a relation: A is a unit of B.
> > Yes? What is the A and B here? I don't doubt that there is a
> > perfectly coherent idea behind this, but I find this kind of
> > formulation mystifying.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Andy Blunden
> > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> > On 11/12/2017 7:01 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
> >> In a book Wolff-Michael Roth and I wrote last year (
> http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783319398679), as well as in a paper
> that we are co-writing right now on how a group of kids and a teacher get
> better at reading/performing theatre scripts, we seek to examine
> trajectories of development in terms of person-environment units—which is
> how Vygotsky defined perezhivanie. In both cases, we find recourse in the
> work of educational psychologist Richard E. Snow, who worked towards a
> definition of the notion 'aptitude' precisely in terms of
> person-environment unit.
> >>
> >> Snow would define aptitudes as "initial states of persons that
> influence later developments, given specified conditions... the are ... not
> merely correlates of learning, but rather are propaedeutic to (i.e., needed
> as preparation for) learning in the particular situation at hand" (Snow,
> 1992, p. 6). To me, this definition comes very close to what Dewey referred
> to as continuity of experience, the basic principle that "every experience
> enacted and undergone modifies the one who acts and undergoes, while this
> modification affects, whether we wish it or not, the quality of subsequent
> experiences" (Dewey in Experience and Education). It was Dewey who,
> together with Arthur Bentley and while critiquing empiricist approaches,
> asserted that,
> >> "The word experience should be dropped entirely from discussion unless
> held strictly to a single definite use: that, namely, of calling attention
> to the fact that Existence has organism and environment as its aspects, and
> can not be identified with either as an independent isolate". With Snow's
> notion of aptitude, then, we are not dealing with a dualistic view on
> intelligence, but with an attempt at a monistic approach to what it means
> becoming skilled, a skilled thinking body one may add.
> >>
> >> And so, if I wonder on the relation between "experienced thinkers" and
> "perezhivanie" that Robert proposed, I think that an experienced thinker is
> she who finds herself at the verge of an open path upon which walking
> further presents as an immediate possibility, for her way of walking has
> become more path-like; or her path has become more walk-able. Say path, say
> math, say dealing with messages at a list server.
> >>
> >> Others?
> >> Alfredo
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu>
> >> Sent: 10 December 2017 18:57
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Experienced Thinkers and Perezhivanie
> >>
> >> Coincidentally, I met a man from Belarus last Wed, Vera's day, but
> before I knew it would be.
> >>
> >>
> >> He moved here with his wife and they will soon have a child.
> >>
> >>
> >> Once I learned from where he hailed, I said, "Oh Vygotsky is from
> there!"
> >>
> >>
> >> After seeing confusion on his face, I had to remind him who he was...
> the famous Russian psychologist?
> >>
> >>
> >> The light went off and he said he had studied him 20 years ago.
> >>
> >>
> >> I told him that I only knew a few Russian words one of them being
> "perezhivanie" and the others "znachenie slova." These are words Holbrook
> Mahn had taught me about. Two great gifts.
> >>
> >>
> >> The man from Belarus seemed perplexed about my definition of
> perezhivanie when I'd said I understood Vygotsky used it in regards to
> instruction, that had to do with the emotional content of the environment
> for teaching and learning.
> >>
> >>
> >> For him, it meant "frustration". Not as a resulting expression, but as
> a process, or perhaps another way to say it, as activity not an end. It was
> a new word meaning for him, and for me. So together we came to appreciate
> why Vygotsky used that word.
> >>
> >>
> >> Additionally, I learned that in our circle on the listsev, it has been
> used as a technical term specific to instruction, but perhaps I am wrong. I
> did not have the space to read the recent thread on perezhivanie, so I may
> be speaking out of time with recent developed threads and my advanced
> apology if that is the case.
> >>
> >>
> >> This now makes me think about controversy, such as what is happening
> concerning last year's election, but also in the US government these days,
> and tension between the media, the president and the people.
> >>
> >>
> >> I have been watching TURN, which is a TV series drama about the
> American Revolution and the spycraft of that time. There was a lot of
> perezhivanie going on.
> >>
> >>
> >> Perezhivanie seems a very democratic word.
> >>
> >>
> >> So to answer the question, I find the relationship between an
> experienced thinker and perezhivanie is timing. A choosing words
> appropriately.
> >>
> >>
> >> Vera was excellent at that.
> >>
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Annalisa
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> >> Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2017 1:08 PM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The illuminance that was Vera
> >>
> >> I have a question for the listserve. How would you envision
> >> or connect  the notion of "experienced thinkers" with perezhivanie?
> >> Can anyone share a few thoughts in along this line?
> >> RL
> >>
> >> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 12:48 AM, Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello colorful fish of the XMCA pond,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Vera's friendship was a thing nontrivial, as ontologies go.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Her academic sensibility was excellent and demanding. At the same time,
> >>> her pathos for the world swam deep. We know from recent experience that
> >>> although she did not post frequently on the list, she dearly valued the
> >>> intellectual exchange that we all enjoy here. It nourished and
> populated
> >>> her mind. To the end, I believe this was the case.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My personal sense of Vera is that few people were privy to the world
> she
> >>> witnessed, through her eyes. I'm one who could not perceive this world
> >>> directly, but I could tell that she perceived much differently than
> many of
> >>> us, if only because she had witnessed a wide variety of human activity
> >>> during her long, sometimes unyielding life. I was kind of standing on a
> >>> hill beneath her vantage point and observing that she could see farther
> >>> than I could, without the means to detect what she could see vividly.
> She
> >>> could be silent in her thoughts and those pregnant pauses could be so
> >>> meaningful, even powerful. Wide vistas. I mean to say that these silent
> >>> pauses were almost words unto themselves. Can a linguist be a linguist
> of
> >>> no words?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Most people who met Vera and had the opportunity to spend a little bit
> of
> >>> time with her, as a student or otherwise, came to love her. My opinion
> is
> >>> if you could not love her, then you were left to admire her mind, work
> >>> ethic, and academic accomplishments, no small crumbs; Vera was the
> arete
> >>> that the Old Greeks talked about.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I feel she made a good-faith effort to be accepting of others even if
> she
> >>> disagreed with them. She was willing to seek the grey tones in a black
> and
> >>> white contest. Everyone had a viewpoint and that viewpoint was for its
> very
> >>> existence a valid one, because it was thought by someone, arising from
> a
> >>> personal, perhaps intimate, experience – and this demands respect, but
> was
> >>> not immune to being challenged, which sometimes she could do in five
> words
> >>> or less.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> She did not see disagreement as an assault to her being, as some of us
> can
> >>> sometimes feel in heated debate, frustrating disagreements, even
> chafing
> >>> exasperation. She was patient, nuanced, poised. Such rapport during a
> >>> debate of ideas is the academic standard for which we all must reach,
> given
> >>> the world we live in today. It is imperative. I feel that way because
> in
> >>> this process of reaching (to listen, to search, to learn), we each
> stretch
> >>> a little: it's a good kind of yoga that makes each of us a better
> >>> contributor to the rest, for the rest, by the rest.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I do not believe I am wrong to say that Vera fought for a better world
> >>> through her efforts to understand how to be a better teacher and how to
> >>> truly serve the developing minds of children who might not have that
> many
> >>> opportunities available to them. She encouraged that temperament in her
> >>> students, and perhaps her colleagues as well. It was how to serve in
> order
> >>> to achieve the best outcomes for everyone, which was a sign of her
> wisdom.
> >>> It is not a struggle singular to Vera, and I believe every one of you
> has a
> >>> dog in that race, to serve today's children and tomorrow's graduate
> >>> students, and even one another.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Vera was also a bona fide feminist. A velvet glove with a strong grip
> on
> >>> the realities of gendered relationship. She was not afraid to support
> other
> >>> women and celebrate their accomplishments no matter the size. She was
> not
> >>> afraid to debate men, but I feel safe to say she chose her battles
> when it
> >>> mattered, but she was aware we still have a long way to go, baby. She
> was
> >>> aggrieved over the election and was fearful about our future. I wish we
> >>> could have shared better news with her than hurricane Harvey, if you
> get my
> >>> meaning.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I also want to say something about Vera's strength if only because it
> was
> >>> annealed through resilience. I feel she saw resilience as necessary for
> >>> survival, and that she saw collaboration as resilience expressed
> between
> >>> two or more people. I think this is why she valued collaboration; it is
> >>> vital to know the dynamics of collaboration in order to survive all
> >>> challenges that life eventually presents to us. "A sterling
> collaborator
> >>> be," might be on her family crest.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Additionally, Vera studied those whom we call geniuses, Vygotsky being
> one
> >>> of them. She told me and a classmate once during office hours that she
> >>> would continue to find new insights in his work after each re-reading,
> so
> >>> even after her own familiarity, we all have that to look forward to in
> >>> reading and re-reading his work. If this was the case for her, then it
> will
> >>> be for us.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> It occurred to me some years ago how brilliant it is to study the
> >>> development of genius. "Notebooks of the Mind" is one residual of such
> >>> work. She was onto something there. She was looking at what occasions a
> >>> person or a partnership to reach unique levels of creative
> accomplishment;
> >>> not what is pathological about the mind in society, but what were its
> >>> virtues? What is a mind that has developed to a pinnacle, significantly
> >>> altering a paradigm of study, creative discourse, or any human
> endeavor?
> >>> How does one become distinguished in creative work? What was the
> recipe for
> >>> that? Can it be replicated?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Imagine if we could all be geniuses, what would the world be like?
> Would
> >>> there be enough room for so many of us?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I think she would say, "Yes," in that delicate Hungarian accent of
> hers.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I suppose any doubt she might have concerning a world populated with
> >>> geniuses, precipitated from the problematic baggage that the word
> "genius"
> >>> carries. Consider the fallacy of Rodin's thinker, his head on his fist
> >>> where ideas spring eternal from no place in particular while
> enthralled in
> >>> monastic solitude. It is not real, nor is it human. Instead, Vera
> preferred
> >>> to call such folks "experienced thinkers." It is so apt a phrase, and
> so
> >>> elegant. Please consider appropriating that phrase in your
> vocabularies, in
> >>> memory of Vera if you want. Certainly Vera was an elegant thinker; her
> >>> speech embodied remarkable reflections that revealed the ripples of her
> >>> introspection.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> An image of koi comes to my mind's eye, as they swim in a clear pond
> >>> socially, quietly, peacefully.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for allowing me to share my heartfelt gratitude for this
> unique
> >>> human being in this very long post. I want to say I will miss her, but
> I
> >>> feel she is with me still.
> >>>
> >>> I hope you feel that way too.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Kindest regards,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Annalisa
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> >> Associate Professor
> >> Social Foundations of Education
> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> >> Georgia Southern University
> >> P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA  30460
> >> Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies,*
> vol.39,
> >> 2017
> >> Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of Social Imagination: An
> >> Intellectual Genealogy.
> >>
> >>  http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1
> >> Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy
> must be
> >> born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John
> >> Dewey-*Democracy
> >> and Education*,1916, p. 139
> >>
> >>
>
>