[Xmca-l] Re: Отв: Re: In Defense of Communism: Legendary composer Mikis Theodorakis blasts anti-communists and anti-Stalin slanderers

Wed Aug 30 12:00:44 PDT 2017

Alfredo, thank you for your valuable response.

Can I kindly ask: That what is easy to get, that Obama, Felipe, Merkel are
criminals. Is this at the same time easily taught by educators in our age?
Unfortunately, I think that the fact that they are criminals is easily
hidden and difficult to teach. I heard very few people who say that Obama
is a criminal. I do not know if Joan Baez changed her opinion after she
sang to Obama "we shall overcome" at White House.

I think that what we discuss here is not the taking of model of some
historical figures. It seems to me that we discuss here an ideological
mechanism which, in the name of negating these historical figures, in fact
negates socialism, revolution.

At least for myself, I do not like to make people idols, even Lenin or
Nazim Hikmet. But I feel myself to unmask what is being done using their
figures.

In the history of French Revolution, there are probably other people who
are much more criminal than Robespierre. But why his name is so much
pronounced?

I think that, because  he is the unique revolutionary figure in the French
Revolution, he symbolizes radicalism and even opposing bourgeoisie. It is
for this reason that he is never forgiven nor built a statue.

The same is for Stalin and Fidel. They are never forgiven.

Do we teach US blockade against Cuba easily? Much easier than Stalin and
Robespierre?

So it seems that the problem is not that these people used violence
excessively but the anti capitalist content of their thinking and action.

It is for this reason that they are not forgiven and slandered continuously.

I think 1793 and 1917 were gigantic historical steps forward  and it seems
impossible to me that such huge, gigantic steps can be without blood.
Unfortunately. To my great regret.

But I think that all the blood of the French Revolution and October
Revolution can not be greater than the blood of imperialist world wars,
imperialist invasions. Is this true? Can we teach this as a historical fact
instead of difficult historical figures? I think no, it will not be easy to
teach such a thing in capitalism's schools.

Is fascism, nazism independent, alien to capitalism and imperialism. This
is another ideological argument to show Nazism as independent of capitalism
and imperialism.

Perhaps we can think that these latter are themes for our students to think
about to initiate questioning capitalism and imperialism.

For me, education should be above all a correct awareness, a consciousness,
 about the social reality our students live in. Apart from the difficulty
such historical figures present, it is not easy to teach that capitalism is
a criminal social order by its very nature whereas being criminal is
contrary to the nature of socialism.

On 30 August 2017 at 14:52, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> wrote:

> Ulvi,
>
> it seems that no one so far has disagreed with your notes on the crimes of
> capitalism, and the need  for socialism. I think, however, that it can be
> hard for many of us to accept that, because capitalism is a much more
> criminal machine than Robespierre or Stalin were, we should praise them and
> be teaching them to people. If the point is that Obama, Felipe, Merkel ...
> are criminals, in the sense that they deliberately perpetuate the
> neoliberal machine that consumes humanity, that seems easy to get. But in a
> forum where many of us are educators, and believe that *education* (in the
> deepest sense of the word) is the key to socialism and revolution, I think
> it is natural that we try to take other figures as models. So, I wonder
> whether there would be better ways to get that message and debate through
> here.
>
> This is my humble opinion, and I am talking while admitting my deep
> ignorance with respect to these matters, most particularly with respect to
> others here who have lived and grown under the regimes of being discussed.
>
> Respectfully,
> Alfredo
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> Sent: 30 August 2017 12:32
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:   Отв: Re: In Defense of Communism: Legendary
> composer Mikis Theodorakis blasts anti-communists and anti-Stalin slanderers
>
> What does this mean dear Bella?
> I gave this example because the same applies to Robespierre's legacy. What
> is imposing here?
> I personally do not want that I am imposed Trump, Obama and alike.
> And generations are not killed by imperialism in world wars.
> And this Islamic state is not created by US imperialism.
> Iraq is not invaded. Yugoslavia not bombed. Thousands of migrants are not
> sinking in the depths of Aegean and Med. because of the policies of EU and
> Germany.
> All is fine under the sky nowadays.
>
> This good bourgeois democracy gives birth again to fascism and neo-nazism.
>
> But we should not be worried.
>
> A better capitalism and imperialism is always possible.
>
> What is impossible is better socialism.
>
> Regards
>
> Ulvi
>
> 30 Ağu 2017 13:22 tarihinde "Bella Kotik-Friedgut" <bella.kotik@gmail.com>
> yazdı:
>
> > We can and should discuss not only Stalin but also Robespierre.?????
> > The generations suffered from communists who failed to build Communism
> and
> >  Stalinism are still alive, so you can not impose them (us) Robespierre
> for
> > discussion.
> >
> > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 4:58 AM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I think today stalin, after 65 years of his death, is used to demonize
> > > socialism and communism.
> > >
> > > We can and should discuss not only Stalin but also Robespierre.
> > >
> > > It is useful.
> > >
> > > Especially to discuss Robespierre to see how humanity is condemned to a
> > > deep degenerated bourgeois politics since nearly 250 years after
> > > Robespierre.
> > >
> > > About crimes against humanity, oppression...
> > >
> > > For this latter, I think nobody can compete not only with Truman, Bushs
> > and
> > > Trump but also Clinton husband and wife and Obama. Nor Merkel. Nor
> > > Churchill, Blair, Thatcher and queen. And spanish king. And also
> > socialist
> > > Hollande. Tsipras' crimes against Greek working people for managing the
> > > capitalist crisis on behalf of Greek and German capital is obvious.
> What
> > to
> > > discuss Stalin when we have such a criminal like Tsipras? Are not
> almost
> > > all of these bourgeois politicians, like Felipe Gonzalez, Javier Solana
> > > mere criminals? Why we do not discuss their crimes? Felipe's crimes for
> > > instance. Killings by his government.
> > >
> > > If we have to look for crimes against humanity, imperialism is a Bolt,
> a
> > > champion.
> > >
> > > Then why again and again, we are reminded of Stalin? And why we are not
> > > reminded of Hitler?
> > >
> > > Because Stalin is used to close the exit from capitalism towards
> > socialist
> > > and communist society. This is a mere fact.
> > >
> > > I am ready to discuss crimes of Stalin in depth. With whom?
> > >
> > > Not with those people who emphasize Stalin's crimes more than Truman's.
> > >
> > > I can discuss this with people who admits that capitalism and
> > imperialism,
> > > in its crimes, can not be compared to socialism, even to Stalin.
> > >
> > > There is an ideological struggle here. A fierce stuggle.
> > >
> > > Is capitalism and imperialism able to carry humanity? No. But socialism
> > > was.
> > >
> > > I can enlist many questions here.
> > >
> > > This Stalin. Did his planes bomb civilian people in cities? No. British
> > > did.
> > >
> > > Did Ibm provide support to Nazis for carting  system? Yes. Did Usa
> after
> > > 1945 use nazis to build cia and today's german intelligence services?
> Why
> > > Americans and Germans do not know these but stalin's name by heart?
> > >
> > > This is a self-defence for imperialism.
> > >
> > > So did imperialism really condemn  nazism? Or it unherited it?
> > >
> > > And when I ask these questions I do no aim at relieving stalin from the
> > > complete responsibility.
> > >
> > > But what imperialist media is doing, it is doing this because they are
> > > against crimes against humanity?
> > >
> > > This is a wrong universe.
> > >
> > > This is anti communism. It has nothing to do with a healthy evaluation
> of
> > > Stalin.
> > >
> > > Can imperialist media do such a healthy evaluation? No.
> > >
> > > Who will do it? Those who work to open the way to socialism. They are
> > > responsible to not repeat past mistakes.
> > >
> > > Is there any body in the communist movement saying Stalin has done
> > > everything very well and without slightest mistake? No.
> > >
> > > Why then is this discussion? Not because there is a risk of a new
> Stalin
> > > and a Greek one this time.
> > >
> > > To close the exit to socialism. To obstruct Kke. This is obvious. Kke
> is
> > > gaining ground within the Greek working class and Ta Nea discusses
> > stalin.
> > >
> > > In a Europe where there are still imbecile queens and kings without
> > > republics, poor masses should believe that stalin was very very bad and
> > > there is no alternative to capitalism other than a new stalin.
> > >
> > > Sorry, those who prefer may opt to believe that stalin is still the
> > > greatest danger against the salvation of human species and that we
> should
> > > admit imperialist world order, this barbarity, I do not opt for this.
> > >
> > > Mikis is  completely right when he raises this objection and unmasks
> its
> > > true purpose.
> > >
> > > Humans can be murdered not only by terror. Capitalism does this daily.
> > > Millions are killed, assassinated, murdered due to the sole fact that
> > > capitalist mechanisms are in application in this society. This is
> > occurring
> > > without Stalin.
> > >
> > > People can be killed also by their souls.
> > >
> > > I have recently read that Russian people does not love Pushkin as in
> > Soviet
> > > period.
> > > Unbelivable. Russian people does not read Pushkin and does not love him
> > > anymore. If Russian people does not read Pushkin, then what he or she
> > reads
> > > is nonsense. If russian people does not love Pushkin, then he or she
> can
> > > not be in love.
> > >
> > > Is there and may there be any greater crime to russian youth than
> taking
> > > from them pushkin and giving them mcdonalds?
> > >
> > > This is counter revolution against humanity.
> > >
> > > Down with Lenin and Stalin and long live Mcdonalds.
> > >
> > > Fidel is not Stalin. They can not label him as they do for Stalin.
> > >
> > > But he is labeled as dictator. Who went to his funeral? Nobody. Not a
> > > single social democrat from Europe.
> > > Tsipras who does not have any problem with fascist Israel state and
> > > capitalism went there. Because he is for socialism? No just to take
> fresh
> > > blood.
> > >
> > > Why imperialist media does not blame Israel instead of Stalin?
> > >
> > > We can and should discuss stalin, ussr etc but not as Ta Nea does.
> > >
> > > We can not discuss it with and within and together with imperialist
> > media.
> > >
> > > Mikis is absolutely right. Because via Stalin they try to liquidate
> > > communist legacy of the past and try to close the way to an actual
> > > socialist revolution.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 30 Ağu 2017 01:51 tarihinde "Alexandre Sourmava" <avramus@gmail.com>
> > > yazdı:
> > >
> > > > Hi, Tom
> > > > As borne in the USSR person who have felt Soviet regime on his own
> > back I
> > > > can only agree with your post.
> > > > The most dangerous was to be a marxist in this country.
> > > > Sasha
> > > >
> > > >     среда, 30 августа 2017 0:12 Tom Richardson <
> > > > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> писал(а):
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello Ulvi
> > > >
> > > > It will be a help towards understanding your attitude towards the
> > > article's
> > > > defence of 'Stalinism', if you will provide your own reason(s) for
> > > posting
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I really wish to acknowledge the lethal horror and inhumanity of the
> > > > occupation, post-war /civil war period in Greece (with UK's murderous
> > > > intervention),  whose agonies continued, followed by the IMF/ECB
> > torture
> > > of
> > > > the present.
> > > > Nevertheless, as a committed communist whose analysis of the theory
> and
> > > > practice of Soviet Russia after 1925-6 is agonised but complete
> > > rejection,
> > > > I regret very much to say that I find the actual article a
> nationalist
> > > > diatribe defending an indefensible personality and system.
> > > >
> > > > Tom Richardson
> > > > Middlesbrough UK
> > > > [a follower of xmca threads and occasional commentator]
> > > >
> > > > On 28 August 2017 at 22:40, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > https://communismgr.blogspot.com.tr/2017/08/legendary-
> > > > > composer-mikis-theodorakis.html?m=1
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>