[Xmca-l] Re: ZPD and DST!

Sat Apr 1 08:59:00 PDT 2017

Robert,
The conclusion to #1 :
To fail to enquire into mediation is effectively to close off enquiry and settle for some kind of dichotomy or taxonomy.

Would you include Wolff Michael’s [speeching field] and the Japanese notion of [maii :  ma + harmony] and Latour’s prism of mediational means as being ‘included’ in this methodological enquiry into mediation. Or is this particular expanded prism of mediation means aligned with the above  multiple approaches/assumptions/spielraum with a common ‘mood’ outside the bounds of mediation? 

Spielraum as expanding movements in local places. An accent on ‘places’ moving beyond 3 dimensional space-time.

Playing in the realm of mind/psyche/soul that is both singular and collective consciousness through spielraum: moving in places.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Robert Lake
Sent: March 31, 2017 6:40 AM
To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ZPD and DST!

That 2 cents goes a long, long generative way Andy. Thanks!

Robert

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 6:52 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> My 2 cents ...
>
> 1. Both Hegel and C. S. Peirce promoted mediation not only as essentially
> ubiquitous, but as *generative*, in the sense that since every relation is
> mediated, every new relation generates a new (mediating) relation. It is a
> method of enquiry which is forever uncovering new relations. I would call
> this the methodological aspect of mediation. To fail to enquire into
> mediation is effectively to close off enquiry and settle for some kind of
> dichotomy or taxonomy.
>
> 2. Vygotsky's *artefact mediation*, is a distinctive type of mediation, to
> which other approaches to mind are largely blind. Artefact mediation is not
> the answer to every problem of psychology. And it wasn't for Vygotsky
> either.
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://home.mira.net/~andy
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> On 31/03/2017 8:44 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
>> The title has a somewhat oxymoronic flavour to it, Alfredo.  Theorising
>> gets more interesting when it consists of a minimum of a 3-term system,
>> and
>> in such a system one term can always be indexed as a mediating one in
>> relation to the other two.  All the problems arise when these terms are
>> reduced to 2-term systems (formal logic, statistical associations,
>> descriptions based upon typed categories) in which the mediators are
>> elements of a non-unitary analysis.
>>
>> The issues of misuse of 'mediators' as elements rather than as part of a
>> unit is structurally similar to applying formal logic categories such as
>> "every" and "there exists" to thinking in terms of complexes, in which
>> these phrases merely limit the (1 term) bonding rather than applying to
>> the
>> (2 term) hierarchical constructs that they are about.  In LSV Vol. 1 we
>> have a 3+ term analysis (dialectic) of the development of 1-term thinking
>> (complexes) towards 2-term thinking (formal logic).
>>
>> Best,
>> Huw
>>
>> On 31 March 2017 at 06:21, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks a lot for sharing the article, Michael. And yes, considering those
>>> copy-distribution issues is important in a forum like this. Is nice to be
>>> able to check with you/us authors on how to best share our work.
>>>
>>> On the issue of Theorizing with/out mediators, Huw, in the article we do
>>> recognize the viability of the option you suggest: not dismissing but
>>> pursuing an 'adequate' (or 'more developed'  that may mean) understanding
>>> of the concept. Still, we recommend the other route, and this is part of
>>> my
>>> view.
>>>
>>> I think the problem concerns a confusion between treating mediation as a
>>> sort of universal premise that 'applies' to everything or as an
>>> analytical
>>> concept that 'explains' everything. For example, David K. in his post
>>> treats the phrase that 'if mediation explains everything then it explains
>>> nothing' as being analog to the sentence 'if perception applies to all
>>> visible phenomena then it applies to none of them.' 'Applies' and
>>> 'Explain', however, seem two very different words to me. You may want to
>>> say that mediation applies to all and every human action/relation. But
>>> then
>>> this is not to say that you are explaining any of them. As I view it,
>>> mediation should not be thought of as an analytical unit in the same
>>> sense
>>> that perezhivanie is, for it is not a concrete unit. In fact, following
>>> on
>>> David's example, *perception* can indeed be accounted for if you develop
>>> and further understand the category perezhivanie. And still, you will not
>>> want to use perezhivanie to account for every and any aspect of human
>>> existence. Nor every instance of 'human(ing)' will be perezhivanie
>>> (unless
>>> you reserve the term 'human' to a very specific set of all the things we
>>> human-looking animals do.).
>>>
>>> Alfredo
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
>>> Sent: 31 March 2017 02:38
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ZPD and DST!
>>>
>>> Thanks Michael.
>>> Establishing fair use in the xmca community seems an important task.
>>>
>>> Your solution works given current uncertainties.
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth <
>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mike, all,
>>>> Because I don't know what big companies can do to us if we violate
>>>> signed
>>>> copyright release, I am more than hesitant to send the type-set version
>>>> they published. However, I am appending the final version of the
>>>>
>>> manuscript
>>>
>>>> that prior to acceptance.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------------------
>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
>>>> Applied Cognitive Science
>>>> MacLaurin Building A567
>>>> University of Victoria
>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
>>>>
>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
>>>> <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
>>>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
>>>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 5:09 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Michael --
>>>>>
>>>>> XMCA has been operating as an educational collective among whom
>>>>>
>>>> relevant
>>>
>>>> written materials are circulated as they are needed for the the
>>>>>
>>>> members'
>>>
>>>> education.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would it incur Springer's wrath to make the paper directly available?
>>>>>
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth <
>>>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all, I did not realize that my reference wasn't updated. The paper
>>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>> here:
>>>>>> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12124-016-9376-0
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and by personal request Alfredo or I will mail a copy to those not
>>>>>> operating at a uni with access to Springer Link.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> --------------------
>>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
>>>>>> Applied Cognitive Science
>>>>>> MacLaurin Building A567
>>>>>> University of Victoria
>>>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
>>>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
>>>>>> <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
>>>>>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
>>>>>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth <
>>>>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi David, you will disagree even more with this one:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roth, W.-M., & Jornet, A. (in press). Theorizing with/out
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> "mediators."
>>>>
>>>>> Integrative Psychological and Behavioral Science.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But people like Feliks Mikhailov, and also Ekaterina Zavershneva
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> indicate
>>>>>
>>>>>> that toward the end of his life, Vygotsy was moving away from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> mediation.
>>>>>
>>>>>> We
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> give an extended argument for theorizing without mediators in the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> article.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I hope you understand that I am not out to interpret and find
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> out
>>>
>>>> what
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vygotsky really said even if he did not say it. I think you are
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> well
>>>
>>>> positioned to do THAT kind of research. I want to move on. And,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> frankly,
>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> have no clue what people are saying when they write that something
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>
>>>> mediated. It seems to me that they are hiding or refraining from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> going
>>>>
>>>>> after what I am interested in. I am not interested in knowing that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>
>>>> tool
>>>>>
>>>>>> mediates something. I am interested in what the tool actually does,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> what
>>>>>
>>>>>> are the events in which tools participate, shape people and get
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> shaped
>>>>
>>>>> by
>>>>>
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the end, all this is about finding suitable discourses, and
>>>>>>> descriptions, for doing the kinds of things we want to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> --------------------
>>>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
>>>>>>> Applied Cognitive Science
>>>>>>> MacLaurin Building A567
>>>>>>> University of Victoria
>>>>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
>>>>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> faculty/mroth/>
>>>
>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
>>>>>>> <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
>>>>>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 2:22 PM, David Kellogg <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> dkellogg60@gmail.com
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the Roth article I would recommend isn't the editorial,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but
>>>
>>>> rather
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> this one:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roth, W-M. 2007. On Mediation: Towards a Cultural Historical
>>>>>>>> Understanding.
>>>>>>>> Theory and Psychology 17 (5): 655-680.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's a lot I disagree with in this paper (e.g. I disagree with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> idea
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that if mediation "explains" everything then it explains
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> nothing--it
>>>
>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> like saying that if perception applies to all visible phenomena
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> then
>>>
>>>> it
>>>>>
>>>>>> applies to none of them). But here's why I prefer it to Saeed's
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> paper:
>>>>
>>>>> a) Roth gets to concrete examples from direct experience almost
>>>>>>>> immediately
>>>>>>>> (fish feeding, on p. 656). This gives me something to go back to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> when
>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> lost in abstraction, and I need it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> b) Instead of using Theory A to illuminate Theory B, Roth goes
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> back
>>>
>>>> into
>>>>>
>>>>>> the historical origins of Theory A and discovers, immanently,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Theory
>>>
>>>> B,
>>>>>
>>>>>> C,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> etc.. This has two advantages: it avoids chalk-and-cheese
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> eclecticism,
>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it helps me understand how Theory A was formed in the first place.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With
>>>>>
>>>>>> Saeed's paper, I find myself missing: 1) an account of the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CRITICAL
>>>
>>>> DISTINCTIONS between the two theories, 2) an explanation of how
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> each
>>>
>>>> MAKES
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> UP for what the other lacks, and 3) some argument for long term
>>>>>>>> COMPATABILITY, some explication of why the emulsion will not
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> re-separate,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> like vinegar and oil.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> c) For Vygotsky--no, for mediation more generally--the key problem
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>> volition, free will, choice. Vygotsky once said that the most
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> problem in the whole of psychology, bar none, is what a human
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> being
>>>
>>>> would
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> really do in the situation of Buridan's donkey (that is a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> situation
>>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>> volition, of free will, of choice where the outcomes were either
>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>> equal or equally unknown). This isn't true of DST, which has, as
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Saeed
>>>>
>>>>> admits, an "emergentist" account of volition (to put it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> uncharitably,
>>>>
>>>>> handwaving and magic). At the very least, choice is late emerging
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in a
>>>>
>>>>> DST
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> account, and that makes, for example, the child's early and
>>>>>>>> successful acquisition of speech very hard to explain.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That said, Saeed--I DID appreciate the part on p. 86 where you
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> remind
>>>>
>>>>> us
>>>>>
>>>>>> that learning and development are distinct but linked. As
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wolff-Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>> says, the point has been made before, but I think that we've got
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to
>>>
>>>> keep
>>>>>
>>>>>> saying this, until people really see that mixing up "microgenesis"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> ontogenesis is, in our own time, the same kind of error that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mixing
>>>
>>>> up
>>>>
>>>>> ontogenesis and phylogenesis was in Vygotsky's. If I read one more
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> which invokes the ZPD for some trivial incident of learning, I'm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> getting a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tattoo that says: "Look here, mate, just because it didn't kill ya
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mean it made ya any stronger".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>>>>> Macquarie University
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>

-- 
Robert Lake  Ed.D.
Associate Professor
Social Foundations of Education
Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
Georgia Southern University
P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA  30460
Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group
Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must be
born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John
Dewey-*Democracy
and Education*,1916, p. 139