[Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems

[mike cole]

I did not see David's note before I sent my followup, Peter.
Vygotsky did not face the purge-like events of the Pavlov sessions and I am
not even certain that Pavlov had started talking about two signalling
systems by the time LSV died. So LSV's comments are less likely to be an
effort at camouflage. The conditions in 1952 were
different than those in 1932.

mike

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 3:50 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:

> Hi Peter-- I believe that second signal system is more or less a synonym
> for language/culture mediated thought and action so LSV had a ton to say
> about it. The closeness of fit allowed people like Luria to continue to
> develop their theorizing and research while continuing to live at home.
>
> Bella and other Luria students would have a better idea about this than me.
>
> mike
>
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Thanks for the Luria references.  From a cursory reading of the relevant
>> passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the other
>> sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been much
>> theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal system.
>> I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not just a
>> political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it hard to
>> imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking is
>> developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational
>> initiation-response) system of thinking.
>>
>> If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this topic,
>> please don't hold back!
>>
>> Much obliged.
>>
>> In solidarity,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come up with
>> > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his little
>> book
>> > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language.
>> >
>> > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on "Speech
>> > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and
>> > Maltzman, *Handbook
>> > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot.
>> >
>> > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the late
>> > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were
>> special
>> > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the use of
>> > first and second signal system by Pavlov
>> > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy.
>> >
>> > mike
>> >
>> > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
>> > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Dear colleagues,
>> > >
>> > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and
>> absolutely
>> > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say
>> > insensitivity)
>> > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could use
>> > your
>> > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to
>> locate
>> > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers to
>> > the
>> > > *first* and *second* signal systems.
>> > >
>> > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system as
>> > the
>> > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes as
>> > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the
>> > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is particular
>> to
>> > > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis that,
>> in
>> > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes
>> *domesticated*
>> > by,
>> > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, the
>> > S-R
>> > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the
>> > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a
>> person
>> > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation.
>> > >
>> > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this
>> poor,
>> > > stumbling colleague
>> > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful.
>> > >
>> > > Warm wishes to all,
>> > > Peter
>> > >
>> > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks to
>> > Mike
>> > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the opportunity
>> > for
>> > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas in
>> an
>> > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to
>> raise
>> > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation in
>> > this
>> > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its participants
>> as
>> > is
>> > > humanly possible.
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>> > > Director,
>> > > Office of Institutional Research
>> > > <http://www.fordham.edu/academics/office_of_the_
>> > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp>
>> > > Fordham University
>> > > Thebaud Hall-202
>> > > Bronx, NY 10458
>> > >
>> > > Phone: (718) 817-2243
>> > > Fax: (718) 817-3817
>> > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>> Director,
>> Office of Institutional Research
>> <http://www.fordham.edu/academics/office_of_the_provos/
>> office_of_institutio/index.asp>
>> Fordham University
>> Thebaud Hall-202
>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>
>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>
>
>