[Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change

[mike cole]

Larry- I, too, reacted to the MEN in your note. I attributed it to what I
took to be your cutting and pasting from a google search using archaic
sources/langauage translated his note for myself in the following terms
using italics (you were seeking to characterize my mode of interacting):

To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that is courteous,
serious, and concerned with the truth. When *participants in a conversation*
are thus seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they
are sorting things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which
*participants* can sort things for *themselves *is to expose *their *ideas
in this way to another’s criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of
dialegesthai; namely *to converse as one should* can be seen to be
equivalent to the meaning which etymology might lead us to put upon the
*middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort for oneself.


Trying to figure things out is certainly what I strive to try to do in this
conversation, so that made sense.


The intertwining of content and style, as I have written previously, was
more than I could ever deal with.


mike

On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
wrote:

> Phillip, Jay, all,
>
> Although I (as I am sure you too) appreciate Larry's post and quotation
> for what he intended the to do, I agree with Phillip's comment that the two
> issues, gender unbalance and chaining, are inherently connected. And, as in
> Larry's post, this connection may pass unnoticed by even the most well
> intentioned. One example of how tightly the two (unbalance and chaining,
> turn-taking I'd like to call it) are related may be found in our very
> recent discussion on Zaza's paper, where gendered issues were explicitly
> discussed. When we realise that a discussion is involving prototyping a
> prosthetic device for HIV-positive mother's breastfeeding in Zimbabwe, and
> only one woman (apart from author) engages in the discussion, we may have
> grounds to think that the problem is not about the topic, but about the
> chaining, the way the turns at a conversation are interlaced with each
> other, who takes a turn and how the turn opens or closes opportunities for
> others to partake in the conversation. And again, the topic itself maybe
> the issue, because, as Zaza's article very well shows (remember, e.g., the
> male's defensive comments on sexual harassment), talk about breastfeeding
> may be of very different topics depending on whether it is 6 males, 6
> women, or a blend thereof who are discussing it.
>
> Thanks Jay for sharing the history with us, a history the newbies like me
> have not lived but may learn from. That history, together with the issues
> that the prior posts are outlining, suggests that the issue may not be so
> much about men and women per sé, as it may be about the exercise of an
> exclusivist academic genre that has historically been dominated by males,
> and which therefore privileges the voice of experienced males even when
> their last intention was to prevent women from participating. If so, we
> face a serious challenge, because it means that academic genre itself is
> the problem, but also the means we have for advancing our endeavour, the
> one xmca and mca are born for. Obviously, the challenge is not to be solved
> just here, in xmca, but everywhere else, and I believe there are many
> lines/fronts where it is being solved, though possibly much slower than it
> should. These are not news, but I think is good to articulate them again.
>
> In any case, and in line with some conversations about crisis going on in
> parallel to this one (the thread on micro genesis), for us to move forward
> our developmental path, there may have to be crisis, a phase in which, as
> David  K. posses it, "the means of development turns back upon itself and
> itself undergoes development." Perhaps we have to face the contradiction of
> having to grow with and from a genre that has grown within a male dominated
> world to create a world of joint participation, not domination. For my
> part, I see two immediate things to do: always leave space between turns to
> make sure everyone (in principle) has the chance to participate; and always
> be self-aware of privilege, and open to be made aware by others. I am sure
> many more things may be added to this list, or may be said better. I hope
> people will help adding and/or improving it.
>
> Alfredo
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Jay Lemke <lemke.jay@gmail.com>
> Sent: 26 October 2016 22:51
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change
>
> At the risk of re-opening old wounds, I'll recall for the group and
> especially the more recent participants that long ago there was a rather
> explicit (and in some ways brutally uncomfortable) airing of the issues
> around gender imbalance. At the time quite a few women members left the
> listgroup (and for a time created one of their own).
>
> My memory of the outcome of the soul-searching at the time is that many
> male frequent contributors found themselves confounded (and for some in
> serious denial) of the perception by women (and many lurkers) that the
> dominant "core" was intimidating in tone or style of response, oblivious to
> their privilege as either more senior academics or just as men, and
> particularly of their totally unconscious sense of their right to hog the
> stage, as it were. Some of the women saw this as a failure to recognize
> gender privilege and deal with it. Many of the lurkers (male and female)
> felt that the heavy presence of a very few (almost all male) voices on the
> list was in itself off-putting to others, regardless of gender. A few
> voices were also raised saying that the native English-speakers were
> oblivious to our privilege and insufficiently sensitive to the positioning
> of others (ditto to some extent for those from outside N. America).
>
> Mike himself was largely exempted from these critiques explicitly, but
> implicitly I think he felt some responsibility for not having paid more
> attention to these problems before they found their critical moment.
>
> Most of the core contributors, as I recall, were rather defensive in their
> responses. I tried to be a mediating voice, and Mike asked, with his usual
> practical good sense, what we could actually do to fix things. Many of the
> women just left. For a time there were posts in Spanish, Portuguese, and
> occasionally other languages. Posters made explicit reference to
> differences in viewpoint due to national cultures or experiences.
>
> But with very few women posting, and as I recall those were then mainly the
> younger women and female grad students, no solution was found regarding the
> gender imbalance. (Note that by imbalance I think people then meant not
> mainly imbalance in membership, but in postings, and particularly in the
> extent to which postings by women were taken up by others and became longer
> threads. This "uptake effect" was something a lot of people paid attention
> to -- and not just regarding gender, and one of the active women members
> even did a quantitative study of it at the time.)
>
> Others may remember things differently, and their recollections would be
> most welcome. Maybe in a separate thread?
>
> JAY.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jay Lemke
> Professor Emeritus
> City University of New York
> www.jaylemke.com
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:08 PM, White, Phillip <
> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Larry, you reiterated Mike's pointing out two concerns;
> >
> >
> > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your
> > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for
> our
> > time.
> >
> >
> > and you discussed them as two separate issues - "gender imbalance", and
> > "chaining", and then you illuminated chaining as -
> >
> >
> > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected
> dialectic
> > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or
> > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is
> > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with
> each
> > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly
> along
> > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation
> that
> > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus
> > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are
> sorting
> > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can
> sort
> > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another’s
> > criticism.
> >
> > first, I'm surprised that you didn't note sic, in the quote, "When men
> > (sic) are thus seriously conversing ...". but, second, I'd like to point
> > out that this genre of mansplaining is most often hierarchically
> > structured, so that male dominance is maintained.  if you look back at
> the
> > great majority of chaining in xmca, you'll see that it is dominated by
> two
> > or three males voices. and rather than, as you explain, and roughly the
> > only way in which a man can sort things for himself is to expose his
> ideas
> > in this way to another’s criticism., i suggest that it is a culturally
> male
> > privileged genre, as Foucault would put it, of maintaining power,
> privilege
> > and prerogative.
> >
> >
> > if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively concerned
> > along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in participation, then i
> > think that there needs to be a recognition that the current chaining
> > practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance.
> >
> >
> > phillip
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM
> > To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change
> >
> > Mike,
> > My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or
> > quest through living the questions.
> >
> > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your
> > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for
> our
> > time.
> > The question of gender brings up Franklin’s classroom where the girls
> know
> > we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen
> > and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play
> they
> > form a *clique* of superheros.
> > Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender
> > imbalance.
> >
> > The 2nd question of chaining.
> > You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding
> > and development of our community.
> >
> > Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to
> > express my testament and gratitude.
> > I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*.
> > I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my
> > personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and
> > forth.
> >
> > Here is what caught my ear.
> >
> > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected
> dialectic
> > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or
> > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is
> > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with
> each
> > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly
> along
> > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation
> that
> > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus
> > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are
> sorting
> > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can
> sort
> > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another’s
> > criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to
> converse
> > as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which
> etymology
> > might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort
> > for oneself.
> >
> > Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony’s now
> > being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing
> > legacy AND the living questions you posed.
> >
> > I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the
> > intertwining.
> > My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience
> and
> > conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of
> > well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other.
> > In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*.
> > Thank you
> >
> > Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> >
> > From: Jay Lemke
> > Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change
> >
> > Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation
> for
> > Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking
> as
> > one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most
> > beautiful of them, which speak for all of us.
> >
> > To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to
> talk
> > with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity
> of
> > intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager
> to
> > hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand
> > unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many
> of
> > us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what
> > others were thinking.
> >
> > The history of this community has not been like that of specialist
> > scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has
> > rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts
> we
> > have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or
> > viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from
> > entirely different premises.
> >
> > Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we
> > stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of
> > Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to
> > make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting
> > benefit of us all.
> >
> > JAY.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jay Lemke
> > Professor Emeritus
> > City University of New York
> > www.jaylemke.com<http://www.jaylemke.com>
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Esteemed Mike,
> > > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by
> the
> > > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing
> the
> > > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often
> > > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring
> > to
> > > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world.
> > > With great respect
> > > Henry
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples <wendy.maples@outlook.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Mike,
> > > >
> > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and
> > think
> > > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some
> terrifically
> > > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it
> going.
> > > >
> > > > With gratitude and very best wishes,
> > > >
> > > > Wendy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> edu
> > >
> > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41
> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change
> > > >
> > > > Mike, all,
> > > >
> > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of
> > > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have
> > > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community
> > like
> > > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to
> write
> > in
> > > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat
> > > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking
> from
> > > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I
> first
> > > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt
> > > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from
> > which
> > > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my
> > > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible,
> > and a
> > > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the
> > > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to
> > > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In
> the
> > > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words
> of
> > > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how
> > important
> > > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much
> > respect
> > > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a
> > very
> > > important sense is giving us freedom.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the
> > others.
> > > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago,
> it
> > > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but
> of
> > > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be
> > > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has
> > > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient
> > > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov
> > > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear
> that
> > > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I
> > > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca
> > and
> > > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake
> in
> > > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns
> > from
> > > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing
> > with
> > > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very
> > > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that
> > xmca
> > > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue
> growing.
> > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Alfredo
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> edu
> > >
> > > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman <bazerman@education.ucsb.edu>
> > > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18
> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change
> > > >
> > > > Mike,  As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how
> > > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting
> > thoughts
> > > > and to put interesting people in contact.  Now I hope you too will
> have
> > > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking.
> > > > Best,
> > > > Chuck
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>