From anamshane@gmail.com Sat Oct 1 15:57:59 2016 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2016 22:57:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] BBFE: Invitation for an online forum of Bakhtinian teaching cases In-Reply-To: <0OEE009RH4G94A@smtp-prod-02.cssd.pitt.edu> References: <0OEE009RH4G94A@smtp-prod-02.cssd.pitt.edu> Message-ID: Dear educator and/or educational researcher? As a part of our study and future book ?Bakhtin from and for educators?, contracted with the Palgrave publishing house, we (Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane, and Mikhail Gradovski) want to invite you to an online forum to discuss interesting, important, and thought-provoking cases of Bakhtinian pedagogy. We extracted these cases from our interviews with self-proclaimed Bakhtinian educators, who claim to be inspired by Bakhtin?s writings. We?ve created an online forum to discuss these cases. If you choose to participate in the online discussion, you will be able to make anonymous or signed comments on the cases. The discussion will be open-ended. The authors of the cases can participate in this online forum as well (or not) ? they may also choose anonymous or signed participation. Below is an example of the beginning of Case#1. There are about 30 super diverse and thought-provoking cases about Bakhtinian pedagogy by Bakhtinian educators with their analysis that we abstracted and edited from our interviews with them. The cases are diverse by students? age, by subject, by pedagogical approaches and interpretation of Bakhtin, by the nature of pedagogical challenges and successes, and so on. We plan to post more cases in a few weeks for discussion. The past cases? discussions can be continued even after posting a new case. Your participation in the online forum is voluntary. You can skip cases at your wish (please do NOT feel obligated to read and discuss ALL cases!). You can reply to the cases directly or to others? commenting the cases as many times as you want. Once a day, you will get an email notification about new postings from the system (if there are new postings on that day). You can unsubscribe from the forum at any time. By participation in the online forum, you will agree to be quoted in our book. If you wrote your comment, which we want to quote, anonymously, then we will refer to you as ?anonymous.? If you wrote your comment and signed your name, then we will refer to you under your name. If you want to withdraw your consent for any particular posting or for all of your postings, you can do so ? please email to us directly with your request . If you are interested in enrolling or have questions, please send an email to Eugene Matusov (ematusov@udel.edu). Thanks for your attention, Eugene, Ana, and Mikhail PS Please feel free to forward this email invitation to educational practitioners and educational researchers who may be interested in participation. PPS Please provide your questions, feedback and suggestions about your concerns about the forum and suggestions for its improvements by emailing to Eugene Matusov (ematusov@udel.edu) ------------------------- Example of a case of Bakhtinian pedagogy for discussionCase#1: ?My Papa's Waltz? tableau Bakhtinian Educator (BE): In my English writing class for diverse undergraduate students, "tableau" is, I like to call it, a living snapshot of, in our case, of a piece of literature. So, what I do is I give my students a piece of literature that we have already read and discussed in class and I tell them, "Okay, you're gonna do a tableau. I need a living snapshot, your representation of a point in time of the piece, what the piece may mean to you and your group, what maybe anything that has to do with the piece. You don't have to narrate the piece. You can do anything." I just had a class do a tableau this semester of My Papa's Waltz, by Theodore Roethke. I have several different classes using the same text, but they all obviously did something different with this text in their tableau. My one class did... There were five students in the group that was going to do the My Papa's Waltz tableau, and what they did was they separated three different scenes in one snapshot, and they represented the papa (father) character, in three different still scenes. One scene was a dance, like a playful dance, just the waltz itself. The second scene was the father... One student had a water bottle, so it was representing the father drinking alcohol, the students said, as they explained later. And the third was the father and son, the father looming over the son who was cowering on the floor. So we had a playful father, an alcoholic father, and an abusive father. Three scenes, three different interpretations all in one snapshot. Interviewer: Interesting. Okay. So where do you see Bakhtinian teaching here? <> * * * Generic questions for discussion: 1. What attracts your attention in this case and why? 2. What do you like/dislike in this case and why? 3. What (if anything) surprise you about this case and why? 4. What would you like to ask the Bakhtinian educator about this case? 5. Do you think the Bakhtinian educator could have done something different, if yes, what and why do you think so? 6. What do you see Bakhtinian, non-Bakhtinian and anti-Bakhtinian in this case and why? -- *Ana Marjanovic-Shane* Dialogic Pedagogy Journal, Editor (dpj.pitt.edu) Chestnut Hill College, Associate Professor of Education e-mails: shaneam@chc.edu anamshane@gmail.com US phone: +1 267-334-2905 Serbian phone: +381 62 1904 110 From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 3 15:51:11 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 15:51:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Article for Discussion Message-ID: Dear Xmca-ers -- Back in June I made a hurried attempt to make available for discussion the paper on the design process of Zimbabwean medical professionals seeking to create an unusual kind of prosthetic devices. Summer and some communication came rushing up to overwhelm the effort. Zaza has been back in touch and is ready to discuss the paper. I am cutting and pasting the title and abstract below. And I am attaching the paper which was open for free access for a while, but if it is now, I cannot find where on the publisher's re-designed web page. Summer having passed other impediments will surely arise, but in the meantime, here is a very unusual paper about design for us to think about. mike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: kabayadondo.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1934226 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161003/eb7da088/attachment-0001.pdf From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Oct 4 19:44:05 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 13:44:05 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The first thing I notice about the paper is how "resplendent" it is in beautiful writing, e.g, "Given this symmetry between prototyping and kukiya-kiya, a prototyping bin resplendent with objects of disinheritance would be a powerful way to see the confluence of mind, culture, and activity." The very next sentence tells us that the prototyping bin is really an old plastic tub "populated with a sensory explosion of" matter out of place. Dear XMCA reader, if you haven't read it yet, you are in for a treat. The second thing I notice, though, is the sensory explosion of new concepts, many of which are unexplained, but make perfect sense if you sit and think about them. Let me just take the new concepts that appear in my example sentences, and see if I can gloss them; the author can let me know if I have him right. Prototyping means developing objects from "low-fidelity" (that is, poor copies) to "high resolution technology" (i.e. not copies at all, but new objects). So prototyping involves the emergence of NEW technologies from the inability to copy the old. For example, in China when the old Soviet tractors designed for giant Kolkhoz farms all broke down, they introduced walking tractors (which you can still see everywhere, and which have now spread to Korea). Kukiya-kiya means the exaptation of high resolution technology for relatively low-fidelity purposes that are more suitable to an economy now thrown back on a pre-imperialist and even pre-mercantilist subsistence economy. For example, in the Korean countryside, when peasants run out of washing powder for their washing machines, they use them to store rice. It's in that sense that kukiya-kiya is the opposite of prototyping; a symmetrical process. Disinheritance means not simply alienation, in the Marxist sense of being confronted by but unable to reappropriate the objects of your own labor, but being written out of the cultural endowment altogether, because the artifacts you have "inherited" confront you as white elephants, requiring more maintenance than they can possibly justify. I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically disinheriting. For example, kids can still play board games that are thousands of years old, but they can't use videogames that were made only decades ago. In contrast, the finest extant technology for making sense of human experience, namely language, is decidedly soft on hardware. David Kellogg Macquarie University. On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > Dear Xmca-ers -- > > Back in June I made a hurried attempt to make available for discussion the > paper on the design process of Zimbabwean medical professionals seeking to > create an unusual kind of prosthetic devices. Summer and some communication > came rushing up to overwhelm the effort. > > Zaza has been back in touch and is ready to discuss the paper. I am cutting > and pasting the title and abstract below. And I am attaching the paper > which was open for free access for a while, but if it is now, I cannot find > where on the publisher's re-designed web page. > > Summer having passed other impediments will surely arise, but in the > meantime, here is a very unusual paper about design for us to think about. > > mike > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Wed Oct 5 04:13:53 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 11:13:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1475666030881.84474@iped.uio.no> I could not agree more with David's remarks concerning the beautiful writing and the sensory explosions that this article is replete with. Indeed, as I was reading it, I was thinking that the reading had a synesthetic aspect to it, as if moving through so very diverse concepts and metaphors was like seeing lots of vivid colours one after another, some more enlightening, others almost blinding, but all forming an incredibly dense wave of topics on the intermeshing of culture and cognition. Among the many (not always followed-up) instances, I found the analysis on the section "gendered intimacy" particularly appealing in that the analysis shows how the designers come to understand a prosthetic prototype in and through reference to actual breasts and breastfeeding in a culture, and by the same token, come to understand actual breasts and breastfeeding as manifestations of a gendered culture in and through an inquiry into a prosthetic prototype. The same goes for the contrasts between younger and older generations, urban and rural... The connections are so many that invite to reading like those books that offer different possibilities to continue the story, and where you can choose jumping from one page to a non-contiguous page depending on the thread you follow. I personally will go back to the text and will follow some of the opened threads that, precisely because of their low fidelity, allow moving quite flexibly. But I also hope not to get lost, or just disconnected, and so I guess some degree of fidelity will also be needed. Thanks for a great read. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: 05 October 2016 04:44 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion The first thing I notice about the paper is how "resplendent" it is in beautiful writing, e.g, "Given this symmetry between prototyping and kukiya-kiya, a prototyping bin resplendent with objects of disinheritance would be a powerful way to see the confluence of mind, culture, and activity." The very next sentence tells us that the prototyping bin is really an old plastic tub "populated with a sensory explosion of" matter out of place. Dear XMCA reader, if you haven't read it yet, you are in for a treat. The second thing I notice, though, is the sensory explosion of new concepts, many of which are unexplained, but make perfect sense if you sit and think about them. Let me just take the new concepts that appear in my example sentences, and see if I can gloss them; the author can let me know if I have him right. Prototyping means developing objects from "low-fidelity" (that is, poor copies) to "high resolution technology" (i.e. not copies at all, but new objects). So prototyping involves the emergence of NEW technologies from the inability to copy the old. For example, in China when the old Soviet tractors designed for giant Kolkhoz farms all broke down, they introduced walking tractors (which you can still see everywhere, and which have now spread to Korea). Kukiya-kiya means the exaptation of high resolution technology for relatively low-fidelity purposes that are more suitable to an economy now thrown back on a pre-imperialist and even pre-mercantilist subsistence economy. For example, in the Korean countryside, when peasants run out of washing powder for their washing machines, they use them to store rice. It's in that sense that kukiya-kiya is the opposite of prototyping; a symmetrical process. Disinheritance means not simply alienation, in the Marxist sense of being confronted by but unable to reappropriate the objects of your own labor, but being written out of the cultural endowment altogether, because the artifacts you have "inherited" confront you as white elephants, requiring more maintenance than they can possibly justify. I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically disinheriting. For example, kids can still play board games that are thousands of years old, but they can't use videogames that were made only decades ago. In contrast, the finest extant technology for making sense of human experience, namely language, is decidedly soft on hardware. David Kellogg Macquarie University. On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > Dear Xmca-ers -- > > Back in June I made a hurried attempt to make available for discussion the > paper on the design process of Zimbabwean medical professionals seeking to > create an unusual kind of prosthetic devices. Summer and some communication > came rushing up to overwhelm the effort. > > Zaza has been back in touch and is ready to discuss the paper. I am cutting > and pasting the title and abstract below. And I am attaching the paper > which was open for free access for a while, but if it is now, I cannot find > where on the publisher's re-designed web page. > > Summer having passed other impediments will surely arise, but in the > meantime, here is a very unusual paper about design for us to think about. > > mike > From zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com Wed Oct 5 07:15:32 2016 From: zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com (Zaza Kabayadondo) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:15:32 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: <1475666030881.84474@iped.uio.no> References: <1475666030881.84474@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Thank you David and Alfredo for being among the first intrepid readers and for your positive comments on the article. I also want to thank Mike, Bonnie, Jen, Victor, and Natalia for their organization, support, and persistence in promoting this article for discussion. I want to introduce myself to you all and to address any questions and discussion points that come up in this thread. I am from Zimbabwe and have lived in Norway, Australia, and the United States (Massachusetts and California). I left Zimbabwe in 2003, years after the contentious land reform program of 1999-2001. After all agricultural production ceased in those years, the country slid into a state of economic free fall that persists and worsens today. The displacement of livelihoods, and of a Zimbabwean diaspora, has forced new activities to emerge: kukiya-kiya, the everyday hustle that allows citizens to make-do, to source food, money, and deals that can get them by for one more day. This research is inspired by the ongoing crisis in Zimbabwe. Because of economic collapse, Zimbabweans describe themselves as being on the margins, or fringes, politically, geographically, historically. More simply put: these are not normal times for the country, and the crisis isolates its citizens from the rest of the world. One scholar of the crisis, Jeremy Jones, has referred to this difficult period for Zimbabweans as a "suspension of the spatio-temporal horizon." (referenced in the article as Jones, 2010) Because the crisis translates to the collapse and disrepair of everyday tools and infrastructure, I find it more helpful to look at the crisis as an environment of heightened sensory attention to the material that make the relationships between mind, culture, and activity more pronounced. The objects surrounding us, in their state of displacement or disgrace, don't only communicate affordances in regards to possible physical action, they also inspire a very productive questioning (and sometimes despair) and reimagining of who we are as social beings. David is very right in drawing attention to the concept of disinheritance as a marriage of Marx's alienation and Vygotsky's cultural heritage. With the concept of disinheritance, I am trying to embrace both, so that we can think about the mind with an eye for processes that alienate or disenfranchise learners. What is going on in the mind when one is alienated from present activity? In what ways can the activity of making do (resourcefulness or the hustle to survive in abnormal times) enrich the models we have for mind and culture? To Alfredo's last comment about the many connections and pursuit of open threads - what a pleasant and happy outcome! I have every hope that, while this is indeed a case study from a very unusual time and place, the concept of disinheritance can be useful for examining everyday activity in normal times too. Recently, a colleague who studies the history of segregation in the United States, mentioned she could see disinheritance at play in "Whites-only" spaces and objects. I am curious to hear what other threads and connections XMCA readers find. Looking forward to more discussion, Zaza On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > I could not agree more with David's remarks concerning the beautiful > writing and the sensory explosions that this article is replete with. > Indeed, as I was reading it, I was thinking that the reading had a > synesthetic aspect to it, as if moving through so very diverse concepts and > metaphors was like seeing lots of vivid colours one after another, some > more enlightening, others almost blinding, but all forming an incredibly > dense wave of topics on the intermeshing of culture and cognition. > > Among the many (not always followed-up) instances, I found the analysis on > the section "gendered intimacy" particularly appealing in that the analysis > shows how the designers come to understand a prosthetic prototype in and > through reference to actual breasts and breastfeeding in a culture, and by > the same token, come to understand actual breasts and breastfeeding as > manifestations of a gendered culture in and through an inquiry into a > prosthetic prototype. The same goes for the contrasts between younger and > older generations, urban and rural... > > The connections are so many that invite to reading like those books that > offer different possibilities to continue the story, and where you can > choose jumping from one page to a non-contiguous page depending on the > thread you follow. I personally will go back to the text and will follow > some of the opened threads that, precisely because of their low fidelity, > allow moving quite flexibly. But I also hope not to get lost, or just > disconnected, and so I guess some degree of fidelity will also be needed. > Thanks for a great read. > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David Kellogg > Sent: 05 October 2016 04:44 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > > The first thing I notice about the paper is how "resplendent" it is in > beautiful writing, e.g, > > "Given this symmetry between prototyping and kukiya-kiya, a prototyping bin > resplendent with objects of disinheritance would be a powerful way to see > the confluence of mind, culture, and activity." > > The very next sentence tells us that the prototyping bin is really an old > plastic tub "populated with a sensory explosion of" matter out of place. > Dear XMCA reader, if you haven't read it yet, you are in for a treat. > > The second thing I notice, though, is the sensory explosion of new > concepts, many of which are unexplained, but make perfect sense if you sit > and think about them. Let me just take the new concepts that appear in my > example sentences, and see if I can gloss them; the author can let me know > if I have him right. > > Prototyping means developing objects from "low-fidelity" (that is, poor > copies) to "high resolution technology" (i.e. not copies at all, but new > objects). So prototyping involves the emergence of NEW technologies from > the inability to copy the old. For example, in China when the old Soviet > tractors designed for giant Kolkhoz farms all broke down, they introduced > walking tractors (which you can still see everywhere, and which have now > spread to Korea). > > Kukiya-kiya means the exaptation of high resolution technology for > relatively low-fidelity purposes that are more suitable to an economy now > thrown back on a pre-imperialist and even pre-mercantilist subsistence > economy. For example, in the Korean countryside, when peasants run out of > washing powder for their washing machines, they use them to store > rice. It's in that sense that kukiya-kiya is the opposite of prototyping; a > symmetrical process. > > Disinheritance means not simply alienation, in the Marxist sense of being > confronted by but unable to reappropriate the objects of your own labor, > but being written out of the cultural endowment altogether, because the > artifacts you have "inherited" confront you as white elephants, requiring > more maintenance than they can possibly justify. > > I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically disinheriting. > For example, kids can still play board games that are thousands of years > old, but they can't use videogames that were made only decades ago. In > contrast, the finest extant technology for making sense of human > experience, namely language, is decidedly soft on hardware. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University. > > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Dear Xmca-ers -- > > > > Back in June I made a hurried attempt to make available for discussion > the > > paper on the design process of Zimbabwean medical professionals seeking > to > > create an unusual kind of prosthetic devices. Summer and some > communication > > came rushing up to overwhelm the effort. > > > > Zaza has been back in touch and is ready to discuss the paper. I am > cutting > > and pasting the title and abstract below. And I am attaching the paper > > which was open for free access for a while, but if it is now, I cannot > find > > where on the publisher's re-designed web page. > > > > Summer having passed other impediments will surely arise, but in the > > meantime, here is a very unusual paper about design for us to think > about. > > > > mike > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Oct 5 08:54:21 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 09:54:21 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] A New Type of Academic Conference Message-ID: I can't recall if this went out to this listserve. Apologies if it is a repeat, but this seems like it might be an ideal way to organize a virtual CHAT conference considering that we have people from all over the world who like to CHAT but who don't always have money to travel to ISCAR. -greg ---------- Forwarded message ---------- *From:* UCSB EHC [mailto:ehcfellow@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2016 9:10 PM *To:* Tami Pugmire *Subject:* Please circulate within your department: A New Type of Academic Conference Dear Tami Pugmire, Would you be so kind as to forward this email to faculty and graduate students in your department, as well as anyone else who might be interested? This is a follow up email to one I sent out earlier this summer and outlines an eco-friendly conference approach that we have used at UC Santa Barbara that has a nearly nonexistent carbon footprint. In order to encourage other groups to try this conference model, we have created a White Paper / Practical Guide that explains our approach. Details are below. Thanks! Ken The environmental cost of flying to and from academic conferences is staggering. When we recently calculated the total greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions for the UC Santa Barbara (UCSB) campus, we discovered that roughly a third of our GHG emissions come from air travel to conferences, talks, and meetings. Putting these GHG emissions into human terms, this is equal to the total annual carbon footprint of a city of 27,500 people living in India. And UCSB is just one of nearly 5000 colleges and universities in the U.S. alone. This issue can also be approached personally. When Peter Kalmus, a climate scientist at NASA?s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, did the math for a recent article in Grist , he found that two-thirds of his personal GHG emissions annually came from air travel to and from conferences and meetings. At UCSB we have been experimenting with a new type of nearly-carbon neutral (NCN) conference that takes place online (the talks are prerecorded; the Q&A sessions interactive) and which has GHG emissions that are less than 1% of its traditional fly-in counterpart. Because we use open source software, such a conference can be staged for nearly zero cost. An individual familiar with WordPress installations should be able to have a conference space (website) prepared in less than a day. My reason for writing is that we have created a White Paper / Practical Guide that both explains the rationale behind this NCN conference approach and also details how to coordinate such an event: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you are planning a conference in 2016-17, we urge you to consider this approach. Please note that this is not in any way a commercial venture. We are just a group of faculty interested in doing what we can to help mitigate our profession's worrisome impact on climate change by freely sharing our experience. Note that this conference model differs significantly from a typical webinar, as it does not use Skype, Zoom.us, WebEx, GoToMeeting, or any such real-time teleconferencing solution. In a nutshell, here is how it works: 1) *Speakers record their own talks*. This can be A) a video of them speaking, generally filmed with a webcam or smartphone, B) a screen recording of a presentation, such as a PowerPoint, or C) a hybrid of the two, with speaker and presentation alternately or simultaneously onscreen. Because they are prerecorded, talks are closed captioned for greater accessibility. 2) *Talks are viewed on the conference website*. Once they are made available on the conference website, the streaming talks can be viewed at any time. Talks are organized into panels (i.e. individual webpages) that generally have three speakers each and a shared Q&A session ? just like a traditional conference. 3) *Participants contribute to an online Q&A session*. During the time that the conference is open, which is generally two or three weeks, participants can take part in the Q&A sessions for the panels, which are similar to online forums, by posing and responding to written questions and comments. Because comments can be made at any time in any time zone, scholars from across the globe can equally take part in the conference. For an example of this approach, please visit the website from our May 2016 NCN conference on "Climate Change: Views from the Humanities," which provides a full archive of the event, including all talk videos and Q&A sessions: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=12687. To see this model in action (and to take part in the Q&A sessions, if you like), visit the website for our next NCN conference, ?The World in 2050: Creating/Imagining Just Climate Futures,? which will take place from October 24 to November 14, 2016: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14895. Keynote speakers include Bill McKibben, Patrick Bond, Erik Assadourian, and Margaret Klein Salamon. A truly international event, we have over 50 speakers from six continents. Although originally conceived of as a way to help mitigate climate change, this NCN conference model has additional advantages: 1) Because of the high cost of airfare, scholars from many developing countries have long been summarily excluded from international conferences. Without the requirement of travel, scholars can participate from nearly anywhere on the globe, especially as asynchronous talks and Q&A sessions, privileging no one locale, eliminate the challenge presented by world time zones - thereby facilitating truly global, interactive conferences. 2) This conference approach is generally more accessible than its traditional counterparts, as A) eliminating travel sidesteps many hurdles to physical accessibility, B) prerecorded talks can be closed captioned for hard-of-hearing individuals, and, C) with respect to the blind and visually impaired, the conference website can be optimized to work with audio screen readers and talks can also be made available as audio podcasts. 3) Similar to open-access journals, the lasting archive created by the conference (both recorded talks and written Q&A discussion) gives nearly anyone anywhere with relatively affordable technology instant and lasting access to all the cutting-edge material introduced at the event. In contrast, traditional conferences are often closed-door affairs open to only a privileged few. 4) The text-based Q&A sessions, which were open for the three-week duration of the May 2016 UCSB conference, on average generated three times more discussion than takes place at its traditional counterpart. One of the sessions generated ten times more discussion, making clear that, while different from a traditional conference, personal interaction was not only possible, but in certain respects superior. 5) Because the cost of such a conference is considerably less than its traditional counterparts, a range of groups and institutions that could not ordinarily stage an event of this sort are now able to do so. This includes universities in the developing world previously lacking the significant financial resources required to coordinate international conferences. 6) Conference talks can be closed captioned in more than one language. Although this was not done for the May 2016 conference, future UCSB events are being planned with talks by speakers in their native languages that will be closed captioned in English. In addition, we plan to have all talks captioned in Spanish as well as English. For more details, do check out our White Paper / Practical Guide: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you have any questions, please feel free to send them directly to me at the below email address. With many thanks for considering this NCN conference approach! Ken Ken Hiltner, Professor English and Environmental Studies Director, Environmental Humanities Initiative 3431 South Hall Administrative Center University of California, Santa Barbara Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3170 hiltner@english.ucsb.edu ehc.english.ucsb.edu kenhiltner.com -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From markchen@u.washington.edu Wed Oct 5 13:50:50 2016 From: markchen@u.washington.edu (Mark Chen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 13:50:50 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes! Not just to save on carbon emissions but hopefully to also make them serve a greater academic community incl. students and those without any grant funding or institutional support for travel. Some of the huge benefit to conferences, however, are the informal networking that happens outside of regular sessions (ie, in the hallways, at bars, etc.), so it'd be curious to hear how that is addressed. mark On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > I can't recall if this went out to this listserve. Apologies if it is a > repeat, but this seems like it might be an ideal way to organize a virtual > CHAT conference considering that we have people from all over the world who > like to CHAT but who don't always have money to travel to ISCAR. > > -greg > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > *From:* UCSB EHC [mailto:ehcfellow@gmail.com] > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2016 9:10 PM > *To:* Tami Pugmire > *Subject:* Please circulate within your department: A New Type of Academic > Conference > > > > Dear Tami Pugmire, > > > > Would you be so kind as to forward this email to faculty and graduate > students in your department, as well as anyone else who might be > interested? > > > > This is a follow up email to one I sent out earlier this summer and > outlines an eco-friendly conference approach that we have used at UC Santa > Barbara that has a nearly nonexistent carbon footprint. In order to > encourage other groups to try this conference model, we have created a > White Paper / Practical Guide that explains our approach. Details are > below. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Ken > > > > > > The environmental cost of flying to and from academic conferences is > staggering. When we recently calculated the total greenhouse gas (GHG) > emissions for the UC Santa Barbara (UCSB) campus, we discovered that > roughly a third of our GHG emissions come from air travel to conferences, > talks, and meetings. Putting these GHG emissions into human terms, this is > equal to the total annual carbon footprint of a city of 27,500 people > living in India. And UCSB is just one of nearly 5000 colleges and > universities in the U.S. alone. > > > > This issue can also be approached personally. When Peter Kalmus, a climate > scientist at NASA?s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, did the math for a recent > article in Grist > who-decided-not-to-fly/>, > he found that two-thirds of his personal GHG emissions annually came from > air travel to and from conferences and meetings. > > > > At UCSB we have been experimenting with a new type of nearly-carbon neutral > (NCN) conference that takes place online (the talks are prerecorded; the > Q&A sessions interactive) and which has GHG emissions that are less than 1% > of its traditional fly-in counterpart. Because we use open source software, > such a conference can be staged for nearly zero cost. An individual > familiar with WordPress installations should be able to have a conference > space (website) prepared in less than a day. > > > > My reason for writing is that we have created a White Paper / Practical > Guide that both explains the rationale behind this NCN conference approach > and also details how to coordinate such an event: > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you are planning a > conference in 2016-17, we urge you to consider this approach. Please note > that this is not in any way a commercial venture. We are just a group of > faculty interested in doing what we can to help mitigate our profession's > worrisome impact on climate change by freely sharing our experience. > > > > Note that this conference model differs significantly from a typical > webinar, as it does not use Skype, Zoom.us, WebEx, GoToMeeting, or any such > real-time teleconferencing solution. In a nutshell, here is how it works: > > > > 1) *Speakers record their own talks*. This can be A) a video of them > speaking, generally filmed with a webcam or smartphone, B) a screen > recording of a presentation, such as a PowerPoint, or C) a hybrid of the > two, with speaker and presentation alternately or simultaneously onscreen. > Because they are prerecorded, talks are closed captioned for > greater accessibility. > > > > 2) *Talks are viewed on the conference website*. Once they are made > available on the conference website, the streaming talks can be viewed at > any time. Talks are organized into panels (i.e. individual webpages) that > generally have three speakers each and a shared Q&A session ? just like a > traditional conference. > > > > 3) *Participants contribute to an online Q&A session*. During the time that > the conference is open, which is generally two or three weeks, participants > can take part in the Q&A sessions for the panels, which are similar to > online forums, by posing and responding to written questions and comments. > Because comments can be made at any time in any time zone, scholars from > across the globe can equally take part in the conference. > > > > For an example of this approach, please visit the website from our May 2016 > NCN conference on "Climate Change: Views from the Humanities," which > provides a full archive of the event, including all talk videos and Q&A > sessions: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=12687. > > > > To see this model in action (and to take part in the Q&A sessions, if you > like), visit the website for our next NCN conference, ?The World in 2050: > Creating/Imagining Just Climate Futures,? which will take place from > October 24 to November 14, 2016: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/? > page_id=14895. > Keynote speakers include Bill McKibben, Patrick Bond, Erik Assadourian, and > Margaret Klein Salamon. A truly international event, we have over 50 > speakers from six continents. > > > > Although originally conceived of as a way to help mitigate climate change, > this NCN conference model has additional advantages: > > > > 1) Because of the high cost of airfare, scholars from many developing > countries have long been summarily excluded from international conferences. > Without the requirement of travel, scholars can participate from nearly > anywhere on the globe, especially as asynchronous talks and Q&A sessions, > privileging no one locale, eliminate the challenge presented by world time > zones - thereby facilitating truly global, interactive conferences. > > > > 2) This conference approach is generally more accessible than its > traditional counterparts, as A) eliminating travel sidesteps many hurdles > to physical accessibility, B) prerecorded talks can be closed captioned for > hard-of-hearing individuals, and, C) with respect to the blind and visually > impaired, the conference website can be optimized to work with audio screen > readers and talks can also be made available as audio podcasts. > > > > 3) Similar to open-access journals, the lasting archive created by the > conference (both recorded talks and written Q&A discussion) gives nearly > anyone anywhere with relatively affordable technology instant and lasting > access to all the cutting-edge material introduced at the event. In > contrast, traditional conferences are often closed-door affairs open to > only a privileged few. > > > > 4) The text-based Q&A sessions, which were open for the three-week duration > of the May 2016 UCSB conference, on average generated three times more > discussion than takes place at its traditional counterpart. One of the > sessions generated ten times more discussion, making clear that, while > different from a traditional conference, personal interaction was not only > possible, but in certain respects superior. > > > > 5) Because the cost of such a conference is considerably less than its > traditional counterparts, a range of groups and institutions that could not > ordinarily stage an event of this sort are now able to do so. This includes > universities in the developing world previously lacking the significant > financial resources required to coordinate international conferences. > > > > 6) Conference talks can be closed captioned in more than one language. > Although this was not done for the May 2016 conference, future UCSB events > are being planned with talks by speakers in their native languages that > will be closed captioned in English. In addition, we plan to have all talks > captioned in Spanish as well as English. > > > > For more details, do check out our White Paper / Practical Guide: > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you have any questions, > please feel free to send them directly to me at the below email address. > > > > With many thanks for considering this NCN conference approach! > > > > Ken > > > > Ken Hiltner, Professor > > English and Environmental Studies > > Director, Environmental Humanities Initiative > > 3431 South Hall Administrative Center > > University of California, Santa Barbara > > Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3170 > > hiltner@english.ucsb.edu > > ehc.english.ucsb.edu > > kenhiltner.com > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- You see before you *Mark Chen, PhD*. Above his head appears a label that changes every time you look at it between "*Indie Game Designer*," "*Professor of Games and Learning*," and "*Director, Pepperdine Gameful Design Lab*." Do you send him a tweet (*@mcdanger* ), check out his website (*markdangerchen.net* ), or respond to this email? He looks at you expectantly with a smile. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Oct 5 13:57:43 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 07:57:43 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <1475666030881.84474@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Zaza: When you say that all agricultural production ceased in Zimbabwe during the land reform, I take it that you mean that agricultural commodity production ceased. But one of the things that usually happens during big upsets like this is a reversion to subsistence agriculture: people grow stuff and eat it instead of selling it. This happened in China in the late fifties and is still happening in North Korea. Isn't it possible that is really what happened? It's also not clear to me how complete the collapse of the infrastructure really is. One of the things that struck me in reading your article was that the workshop takes place in a well equipped conference room, where there are apparently video facilities and working electricity. There's also no mention of something that is often even more basic than electricity, namely running water; presumably if the mother is going to be producing formula, she has to have access to clean water. Vygotsky talks a lot (at the end of almost every chapter in "The History of the Development of the Higher Psychological Functions) about a kind of pathogenetic analysis: that is, seeing the decay of higher functions as an example of their development in reverse motion (a stripping away of layers to reveal how they were laid on in the first place). We often forget that over two thirds of his written work--and almost all of his published work--was either pedology or "defectology" rather than psychology or cultural historical theory. It's possible to think of what is happening in Zimbabwe (and similar instances of kukiya-kiya in Cuba and even China after the Soviets were expelled) as an instance of cultural-historical pathogenesis: the "nice things" of colonialism and mercantilism get stripped away and the layer of subsistence agriculture on which it all developed hundreds of years ago is revealed again. Use values predominate over exchange values, just as when a stroke victim loses control of the "znachenie" of words but retains their "smysl". David Kellogg Macquarie University On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 1:15 AM, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: > Thank you David and Alfredo for being among the first intrepid readers and > for your positive comments on the article. > > I also want to thank Mike, Bonnie, Jen, Victor, and Natalia for their > organization, support, and persistence in promoting this article for > discussion. > > I want to introduce myself to you all and to address any questions and > discussion points that come up in this thread. > > I am from Zimbabwe and have lived in Norway, Australia, and the United > States (Massachusetts and California). I left Zimbabwe in 2003, years after > the contentious land reform program of 1999-2001. After all agricultural > production ceased in those years, the country slid into a state of economic > free fall that persists and worsens today. The displacement of livelihoods, > and of a Zimbabwean diaspora, has forced new activities to emerge: > kukiya-kiya, the everyday hustle that allows citizens to make-do, to source > food, money, and deals that can get them by for one more day. > > This research is inspired by the ongoing crisis in Zimbabwe. Because of > economic collapse, Zimbabweans describe themselves as being on the margins, > or fringes, politically, geographically, historically. More simply put: > these are not normal times for the country, and the crisis isolates its > citizens from the rest of the world. One scholar of the crisis, Jeremy > Jones, has referred to this difficult period for Zimbabweans as a > "suspension of the spatio-temporal horizon." (referenced in the article as > Jones, 2010) Because the crisis translates to the collapse and disrepair of > everyday tools and infrastructure, I find it more helpful to look at the > crisis as an environment of heightened sensory attention to the material > that make the relationships between mind, culture, and activity more > pronounced. The objects surrounding us, in their state of displacement or > disgrace, don't only communicate affordances in regards to possible > physical action, they also inspire a very productive questioning (and > sometimes despair) and reimagining of who we are as social beings. > > David is very right in drawing attention to the concept of disinheritance > as a marriage of Marx's alienation and Vygotsky's cultural heritage. With > the concept of disinheritance, I am trying to embrace both, so that we can > think about the mind with an eye for processes that alienate or > disenfranchise learners. What is going on in the mind when one is alienated > from present activity? In what ways can the activity of making do > (resourcefulness or the hustle to survive in abnormal times) enrich the > models we have for mind and culture? > > To Alfredo's last comment about the many connections and pursuit of open > threads - what a pleasant and happy outcome! I have every hope that, while > this is indeed a case study from a very unusual time and place, the concept > of disinheritance can be useful for examining everyday activity in normal > times too. Recently, a colleague who studies the history of segregation in > the United States, mentioned she could see disinheritance at play in > "Whites-only" spaces and objects. I am curious to hear what other threads > and connections XMCA readers find. > > Looking forward to more discussion, > > Zaza > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > I could not agree more with David's remarks concerning the beautiful > > writing and the sensory explosions that this article is replete with. > > Indeed, as I was reading it, I was thinking that the reading had a > > synesthetic aspect to it, as if moving through so very diverse concepts > and > > metaphors was like seeing lots of vivid colours one after another, some > > more enlightening, others almost blinding, but all forming an incredibly > > dense wave of topics on the intermeshing of culture and cognition. > > > > Among the many (not always followed-up) instances, I found the analysis > on > > the section "gendered intimacy" particularly appealing in that the > analysis > > shows how the designers come to understand a prosthetic prototype in and > > through reference to actual breasts and breastfeeding in a culture, and > by > > the same token, come to understand actual breasts and breastfeeding as > > manifestations of a gendered culture in and through an inquiry into a > > prosthetic prototype. The same goes for the contrasts between younger and > > older generations, urban and rural... > > > > The connections are so many that invite to reading like those books that > > offer different possibilities to continue the story, and where you can > > choose jumping from one page to a non-contiguous page depending on the > > thread you follow. I personally will go back to the text and will follow > > some of the opened threads that, precisely because of their low fidelity, > > allow moving quite flexibly. But I also hope not to get lost, or just > > disconnected, and so I guess some degree of fidelity will also be needed. > > Thanks for a great read. > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > Sent: 05 October 2016 04:44 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > > > > The first thing I notice about the paper is how "resplendent" it is in > > beautiful writing, e.g, > > > > "Given this symmetry between prototyping and kukiya-kiya, a prototyping > bin > > resplendent with objects of disinheritance would be a powerful way to see > > the confluence of mind, culture, and activity." > > > > The very next sentence tells us that the prototyping bin is really an old > > plastic tub "populated with a sensory explosion of" matter out of place. > > Dear XMCA reader, if you haven't read it yet, you are in for a treat. > > > > The second thing I notice, though, is the sensory explosion of new > > concepts, many of which are unexplained, but make perfect sense if you > sit > > and think about them. Let me just take the new concepts that appear in my > > example sentences, and see if I can gloss them; the author can let me > know > > if I have him right. > > > > Prototyping means developing objects from "low-fidelity" (that is, poor > > copies) to "high resolution technology" (i.e. not copies at all, but new > > objects). So prototyping involves the emergence of NEW technologies from > > the inability to copy the old. For example, in China when the old Soviet > > tractors designed for giant Kolkhoz farms all broke down, they introduced > > walking tractors (which you can still see everywhere, and which have now > > spread to Korea). > > > > Kukiya-kiya means the exaptation of high resolution technology for > > relatively low-fidelity purposes that are more suitable to an economy now > > thrown back on a pre-imperialist and even pre-mercantilist subsistence > > economy. For example, in the Korean countryside, when peasants run out of > > washing powder for their washing machines, they use them to store > > rice. It's in that sense that kukiya-kiya is the opposite of > prototyping; a > > symmetrical process. > > > > Disinheritance means not simply alienation, in the Marxist sense of being > > confronted by but unable to reappropriate the objects of your own labor, > > but being written out of the cultural endowment altogether, because the > > artifacts you have "inherited" confront you as white elephants, requiring > > more maintenance than they can possibly justify. > > > > I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically disinheriting. > > For example, kids can still play board games that are thousands of years > > old, but they can't use videogames that were made only decades ago. In > > contrast, the finest extant technology for making sense of human > > experience, namely language, is decidedly soft on hardware. > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University. > > > > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Dear Xmca-ers -- > > > > > > Back in June I made a hurried attempt to make available for discussion > > the > > > paper on the design process of Zimbabwean medical professionals seeking > > to > > > create an unusual kind of prosthetic devices. Summer and some > > communication > > > came rushing up to overwhelm the effort. > > > > > > Zaza has been back in touch and is ready to discuss the paper. I am > > cutting > > > and pasting the title and abstract below. And I am attaching the paper > > > which was open for free access for a while, but if it is now, I cannot > > find > > > where on the publisher's re-designed web page. > > > > > > Summer having passed other impediments will surely arise, but in the > > > meantime, here is a very unusual paper about design for us to think > > about. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > From laires11@gmail.com Wed Oct 5 14:49:35 2016 From: laires11@gmail.com (Luisa Aires) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 22:49:35 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Excellent, Greg. Best, Lu?sa 2016-10-05 16:54 GMT+01:00 Greg Thompson : > I can't recall if this went out to this listserve. Apologies if it is a > repeat, but this seems like it might be an ideal way to organize a virtual > CHAT conference considering that we have people from all over the world who > like to CHAT but who don't always have money to travel to ISCAR. > > -greg > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > *From:* UCSB EHC [mailto:ehcfellow@gmail.com] > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2016 9:10 PM > *To:* Tami Pugmire > *Subject:* Please circulate within your department: A New Type of Academic > Conference > > > > Dear Tami Pugmire, > > > > Would you be so kind as to forward this email to faculty and graduate > students in your department, as well as anyone else who might be > interested? > > > > This is a follow up email to one I sent out earlier this summer and > outlines an eco-friendly conference approach that we have used at UC Santa > Barbara that has a nearly nonexistent carbon footprint. In order to > encourage other groups to try this conference model, we have created a > White Paper / Practical Guide that explains our approach. Details are > below. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Ken > > > > > > The environmental cost of flying to and from academic conferences is > staggering. When we recently calculated the total greenhouse gas (GHG) > emissions for the UC Santa Barbara (UCSB) campus, we discovered that > roughly a third of our GHG emissions come from air travel to conferences, > talks, and meetings. Putting these GHG emissions into human terms, this is > equal to the total annual carbon footprint of a city of 27,500 people > living in India. And UCSB is just one of nearly 5000 colleges and > universities in the U.S. alone. > > > > This issue can also be approached personally. When Peter Kalmus, a climate > scientist at NASA?s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, did the math for a recent > article in Grist > who-decided-not-to-fly/>, > he found that two-thirds of his personal GHG emissions annually came from > air travel to and from conferences and meetings. > > > > At UCSB we have been experimenting with a new type of nearly-carbon neutral > (NCN) conference that takes place online (the talks are prerecorded; the > Q&A sessions interactive) and which has GHG emissions that are less than 1% > of its traditional fly-in counterpart. Because we use open source software, > such a conference can be staged for nearly zero cost. An individual > familiar with WordPress installations should be able to have a conference > space (website) prepared in less than a day. > > > > My reason for writing is that we have created a White Paper / Practical > Guide that both explains the rationale behind this NCN conference approach > and also details how to coordinate such an event: > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you are planning a > conference in 2016-17, we urge you to consider this approach. Please note > that this is not in any way a commercial venture. We are just a group of > faculty interested in doing what we can to help mitigate our profession's > worrisome impact on climate change by freely sharing our experience. > > > > Note that this conference model differs significantly from a typical > webinar, as it does not use Skype, Zoom.us, WebEx, GoToMeeting, or any such > real-time teleconferencing solution. In a nutshell, here is how it works: > > > > 1) *Speakers record their own talks*. This can be A) a video of them > speaking, generally filmed with a webcam or smartphone, B) a screen > recording of a presentation, such as a PowerPoint, or C) a hybrid of the > two, with speaker and presentation alternately or simultaneously onscreen. > Because they are prerecorded, talks are closed captioned for > greater accessibility. > > > > 2) *Talks are viewed on the conference website*. Once they are made > available on the conference website, the streaming talks can be viewed at > any time. Talks are organized into panels (i.e. individual webpages) that > generally have three speakers each and a shared Q&A session ? just like a > traditional conference. > > > > 3) *Participants contribute to an online Q&A session*. During the time that > the conference is open, which is generally two or three weeks, participants > can take part in the Q&A sessions for the panels, which are similar to > online forums, by posing and responding to written questions and comments. > Because comments can be made at any time in any time zone, scholars from > across the globe can equally take part in the conference. > > > > For an example of this approach, please visit the website from our May 2016 > NCN conference on "Climate Change: Views from the Humanities," which > provides a full archive of the event, including all talk videos and Q&A > sessions: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=12687. > > > > To see this model in action (and to take part in the Q&A sessions, if you > like), visit the website for our next NCN conference, ?The World in 2050: > Creating/Imagining Just Climate Futures,? which will take place from > October 24 to November 14, 2016: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/? > page_id=14895. > Keynote speakers include Bill McKibben, Patrick Bond, Erik Assadourian, and > Margaret Klein Salamon. A truly international event, we have over 50 > speakers from six continents. > > > > Although originally conceived of as a way to help mitigate climate change, > this NCN conference model has additional advantages: > > > > 1) Because of the high cost of airfare, scholars from many developing > countries have long been summarily excluded from international conferences. > Without the requirement of travel, scholars can participate from nearly > anywhere on the globe, especially as asynchronous talks and Q&A sessions, > privileging no one locale, eliminate the challenge presented by world time > zones - thereby facilitating truly global, interactive conferences. > > > > 2) This conference approach is generally more accessible than its > traditional counterparts, as A) eliminating travel sidesteps many hurdles > to physical accessibility, B) prerecorded talks can be closed captioned for > hard-of-hearing individuals, and, C) with respect to the blind and visually > impaired, the conference website can be optimized to work with audio screen > readers and talks can also be made available as audio podcasts. > > > > 3) Similar to open-access journals, the lasting archive created by the > conference (both recorded talks and written Q&A discussion) gives nearly > anyone anywhere with relatively affordable technology instant and lasting > access to all the cutting-edge material introduced at the event. In > contrast, traditional conferences are often closed-door affairs open to > only a privileged few. > > > > 4) The text-based Q&A sessions, which were open for the three-week duration > of the May 2016 UCSB conference, on average generated three times more > discussion than takes place at its traditional counterpart. One of the > sessions generated ten times more discussion, making clear that, while > different from a traditional conference, personal interaction was not only > possible, but in certain respects superior. > > > > 5) Because the cost of such a conference is considerably less than its > traditional counterparts, a range of groups and institutions that could not > ordinarily stage an event of this sort are now able to do so. This includes > universities in the developing world previously lacking the significant > financial resources required to coordinate international conferences. > > > > 6) Conference talks can be closed captioned in more than one language. > Although this was not done for the May 2016 conference, future UCSB events > are being planned with talks by speakers in their native languages that > will be closed captioned in English. In addition, we plan to have all talks > captioned in Spanish as well as English. > > > > For more details, do check out our White Paper / Practical Guide: > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you have any questions, > please feel free to send them directly to me at the below email address. > > > > With many thanks for considering this NCN conference approach! > > > > Ken > > > > Ken Hiltner, Professor > > English and Environmental Studies > > Director, Environmental Humanities Initiative > > 3431 South Hall Administrative Center > > University of California, Santa Barbara > > Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3170 > > hiltner@english.ucsb.edu > > ehc.english.ucsb.edu > > kenhiltner.com > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Department of Education and Distance Learning, Universidade Aberta Centre of Studies on Migrations and Intercultural Relations (CEMRI) R. Amial, n? 752, 4200-055 Porto, Portugal laires@uab.pt www.uab.pt From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Wed Oct 5 15:00:25 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 22:00:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1475704824688.29134@iped.uio.no> Thanks a lot! As a postdoc that still is building a profile of records strong enough to secure a faculty position somewhere, I feel the double bind situation of (a) obligation to contribute to as many venues as possible, and a (b) strong wish to not contribute to the crazyness of high-consumption flights, hotels, etc... that surround conferences. I'll look at your model. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Luisa Aires Sent: 05 October 2016 23:49 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference Excellent, Greg. Best, Lu?sa 2016-10-05 16:54 GMT+01:00 Greg Thompson : > I can't recall if this went out to this listserve. Apologies if it is a > repeat, but this seems like it might be an ideal way to organize a virtual > CHAT conference considering that we have people from all over the world who > like to CHAT but who don't always have money to travel to ISCAR. > > -greg > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > *From:* UCSB EHC [mailto:ehcfellow@gmail.com] > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2016 9:10 PM > *To:* Tami Pugmire > *Subject:* Please circulate within your department: A New Type of Academic > Conference > > > > Dear Tami Pugmire, > > > > Would you be so kind as to forward this email to faculty and graduate > students in your department, as well as anyone else who might be > interested? > > > > This is a follow up email to one I sent out earlier this summer and > outlines an eco-friendly conference approach that we have used at UC Santa > Barbara that has a nearly nonexistent carbon footprint. In order to > encourage other groups to try this conference model, we have created a > White Paper / Practical Guide that explains our approach. Details are > below. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Ken > > > > > > The environmental cost of flying to and from academic conferences is > staggering. When we recently calculated the total greenhouse gas (GHG) > emissions for the UC Santa Barbara (UCSB) campus, we discovered that > roughly a third of our GHG emissions come from air travel to conferences, > talks, and meetings. Putting these GHG emissions into human terms, this is > equal to the total annual carbon footprint of a city of 27,500 people > living in India. And UCSB is just one of nearly 5000 colleges and > universities in the U.S. alone. > > > > This issue can also be approached personally. When Peter Kalmus, a climate > scientist at NASA?s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, did the math for a recent > article in Grist > who-decided-not-to-fly/>, > he found that two-thirds of his personal GHG emissions annually came from > air travel to and from conferences and meetings. > > > > At UCSB we have been experimenting with a new type of nearly-carbon neutral > (NCN) conference that takes place online (the talks are prerecorded; the > Q&A sessions interactive) and which has GHG emissions that are less than 1% > of its traditional fly-in counterpart. Because we use open source software, > such a conference can be staged for nearly zero cost. An individual > familiar with WordPress installations should be able to have a conference > space (website) prepared in less than a day. > > > > My reason for writing is that we have created a White Paper / Practical > Guide that both explains the rationale behind this NCN conference approach > and also details how to coordinate such an event: > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you are planning a > conference in 2016-17, we urge you to consider this approach. Please note > that this is not in any way a commercial venture. We are just a group of > faculty interested in doing what we can to help mitigate our profession's > worrisome impact on climate change by freely sharing our experience. > > > > Note that this conference model differs significantly from a typical > webinar, as it does not use Skype, Zoom.us, WebEx, GoToMeeting, or any such > real-time teleconferencing solution. In a nutshell, here is how it works: > > > > 1) *Speakers record their own talks*. This can be A) a video of them > speaking, generally filmed with a webcam or smartphone, B) a screen > recording of a presentation, such as a PowerPoint, or C) a hybrid of the > two, with speaker and presentation alternately or simultaneously onscreen. > Because they are prerecorded, talks are closed captioned for > greater accessibility. > > > > 2) *Talks are viewed on the conference website*. Once they are made > available on the conference website, the streaming talks can be viewed at > any time. Talks are organized into panels (i.e. individual webpages) that > generally have three speakers each and a shared Q&A session ? just like a > traditional conference. > > > > 3) *Participants contribute to an online Q&A session*. During the time that > the conference is open, which is generally two or three weeks, participants > can take part in the Q&A sessions for the panels, which are similar to > online forums, by posing and responding to written questions and comments. > Because comments can be made at any time in any time zone, scholars from > across the globe can equally take part in the conference. > > > > For an example of this approach, please visit the website from our May 2016 > NCN conference on "Climate Change: Views from the Humanities," which > provides a full archive of the event, including all talk videos and Q&A > sessions: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=12687. > > > > To see this model in action (and to take part in the Q&A sessions, if you > like), visit the website for our next NCN conference, ?The World in 2050: > Creating/Imagining Just Climate Futures,? which will take place from > October 24 to November 14, 2016: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/? > page_id=14895. > Keynote speakers include Bill McKibben, Patrick Bond, Erik Assadourian, and > Margaret Klein Salamon. A truly international event, we have over 50 > speakers from six continents. > > > > Although originally conceived of as a way to help mitigate climate change, > this NCN conference model has additional advantages: > > > > 1) Because of the high cost of airfare, scholars from many developing > countries have long been summarily excluded from international conferences. > Without the requirement of travel, scholars can participate from nearly > anywhere on the globe, especially as asynchronous talks and Q&A sessions, > privileging no one locale, eliminate the challenge presented by world time > zones - thereby facilitating truly global, interactive conferences. > > > > 2) This conference approach is generally more accessible than its > traditional counterparts, as A) eliminating travel sidesteps many hurdles > to physical accessibility, B) prerecorded talks can be closed captioned for > hard-of-hearing individuals, and, C) with respect to the blind and visually > impaired, the conference website can be optimized to work with audio screen > readers and talks can also be made available as audio podcasts. > > > > 3) Similar to open-access journals, the lasting archive created by the > conference (both recorded talks and written Q&A discussion) gives nearly > anyone anywhere with relatively affordable technology instant and lasting > access to all the cutting-edge material introduced at the event. In > contrast, traditional conferences are often closed-door affairs open to > only a privileged few. > > > > 4) The text-based Q&A sessions, which were open for the three-week duration > of the May 2016 UCSB conference, on average generated three times more > discussion than takes place at its traditional counterpart. One of the > sessions generated ten times more discussion, making clear that, while > different from a traditional conference, personal interaction was not only > possible, but in certain respects superior. > > > > 5) Because the cost of such a conference is considerably less than its > traditional counterparts, a range of groups and institutions that could not > ordinarily stage an event of this sort are now able to do so. This includes > universities in the developing world previously lacking the significant > financial resources required to coordinate international conferences. > > > > 6) Conference talks can be closed captioned in more than one language. > Although this was not done for the May 2016 conference, future UCSB events > are being planned with talks by speakers in their native languages that > will be closed captioned in English. In addition, we plan to have all talks > captioned in Spanish as well as English. > > > > For more details, do check out our White Paper / Practical Guide: > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you have any questions, > please feel free to send them directly to me at the below email address. > > > > With many thanks for considering this NCN conference approach! > > > > Ken > > > > Ken Hiltner, Professor > > English and Environmental Studies > > Director, Environmental Humanities Initiative > > 3431 South Hall Administrative Center > > University of California, Santa Barbara > > Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3170 > > hiltner@english.ucsb.edu > > ehc.english.ucsb.edu > > kenhiltner.com > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Department of Education and Distance Learning, Universidade Aberta Centre of Studies on Migrations and Intercultural Relations (CEMRI) R. Amial, n? 752, 4200-055 Porto, Portugal laires@uab.pt www.uab.pt From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 5 16:30:54 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 16:30:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference In-Reply-To: <1475704824688.29134@iped.uio.no> References: <1475704824688.29134@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: One might even think of a conference called by XMCA. There have been several recurrent topics discussed (sometimes at length, others repeatedly without realizing that there was re-covering going) that would make excellent material for an international conference. How light is the lightness of being of a multi-modal, telecommunications-mediated conference with, say, 200 members present that lasts for N days? mike On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Thanks a lot! As a postdoc that still is building a profile of records > strong enough to secure a faculty position somewhere, I feel the double > bind situation of (a) obligation to contribute to as many venues as > possible, and a (b) strong wish to not contribute to the crazyness of > high-consumption flights, hotels, etc... that surround conferences. I'll > look at your model. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Luisa Aires > Sent: 05 October 2016 23:49 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference > > Excellent, Greg. > > Best, > Lu?sa > > 2016-10-05 16:54 GMT+01:00 Greg Thompson : > > > I can't recall if this went out to this listserve. Apologies if it is a > > repeat, but this seems like it might be an ideal way to organize a > virtual > > CHAT conference considering that we have people from all over the world > who > > like to CHAT but who don't always have money to travel to ISCAR. > > > > -greg > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > *From:* UCSB EHC [mailto:ehcfellow@gmail.com] > > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2016 9:10 PM > > *To:* Tami Pugmire > > *Subject:* Please circulate within your department: A New Type of > Academic > > Conference > > > > > > > > Dear Tami Pugmire, > > > > > > > > Would you be so kind as to forward this email to faculty and graduate > > students in your department, as well as anyone else who might be > > interested? > > > > > > > > This is a follow up email to one I sent out earlier this summer and > > outlines an eco-friendly conference approach that we have used at UC > Santa > > Barbara that has a nearly nonexistent carbon footprint. In order to > > encourage other groups to try this conference model, we have created a > > White Paper / Practical Guide that explains our approach. Details are > > below. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > The environmental cost of flying to and from academic conferences is > > staggering. When we recently calculated the total greenhouse gas (GHG) > > emissions for the UC Santa Barbara (UCSB) campus, we discovered that > > roughly a third of our GHG emissions come from air travel to conferences, > > talks, and meetings. Putting these GHG emissions into human terms, this > is > > equal to the total annual carbon footprint of a city of 27,500 people > > living in India. And UCSB is just one of nearly 5000 colleges and > > universities in the U.S. alone. > > > > > > > > This issue can also be approached personally. When Peter Kalmus, a > climate > > scientist at NASA?s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, did the math for a recent > > article in Grist > > > who-decided-not-to-fly/>, > > he found that two-thirds of his personal GHG emissions annually came from > > air travel to and from conferences and meetings. > > > > > > > > At UCSB we have been experimenting with a new type of nearly-carbon > neutral > > (NCN) conference that takes place online (the talks are prerecorded; the > > Q&A sessions interactive) and which has GHG emissions that are less than > 1% > > of its traditional fly-in counterpart. Because we use open source > software, > > such a conference can be staged for nearly zero cost. An individual > > familiar with WordPress installations should be able to have a conference > > space (website) prepared in less than a day. > > > > > > > > My reason for writing is that we have created a White Paper / Practical > > Guide that both explains the rationale behind this NCN conference > approach > > and also details how to coordinate such an event: > > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you are planning a > > conference in 2016-17, we urge you to consider this approach. Please note > > that this is not in any way a commercial venture. We are just a group of > > faculty interested in doing what we can to help mitigate our profession's > > worrisome impact on climate change by freely sharing our experience. > > > > > > > > Note that this conference model differs significantly from a typical > > webinar, as it does not use Skype, Zoom.us, WebEx, GoToMeeting, or any > such > > real-time teleconferencing solution. In a nutshell, here is how it works: > > > > > > > > 1) *Speakers record their own talks*. This can be A) a video of them > > speaking, generally filmed with a webcam or smartphone, B) a screen > > recording of a presentation, such as a PowerPoint, or C) a hybrid of the > > two, with speaker and presentation alternately or simultaneously > onscreen. > > Because they are prerecorded, talks are closed captioned for > > greater accessibility. > > > > > > > > 2) *Talks are viewed on the conference website*. Once they are made > > available on the conference website, the streaming talks can be viewed at > > any time. Talks are organized into panels (i.e. individual webpages) that > > generally have three speakers each and a shared Q&A session ? just like a > > traditional conference. > > > > > > > > 3) *Participants contribute to an online Q&A session*. During the time > that > > the conference is open, which is generally two or three weeks, > participants > > can take part in the Q&A sessions for the panels, which are similar to > > online forums, by posing and responding to written questions and > comments. > > Because comments can be made at any time in any time zone, scholars from > > across the globe can equally take part in the conference. > > > > > > > > For an example of this approach, please visit the website from our May > 2016 > > NCN conference on "Climate Change: Views from the Humanities," which > > provides a full archive of the event, including all talk videos and Q&A > > sessions: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=12687. > > > > > > > > To see this model in action (and to take part in the Q&A sessions, if you > > like), visit the website for our next NCN conference, ?The World in 2050: > > Creating/Imagining Just Climate Futures,? which will take place from > > October 24 to November 14, 2016: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/? > > page_id=14895. > > Keynote speakers include Bill McKibben, Patrick Bond, Erik Assadourian, > and > > Margaret Klein Salamon. A truly international event, we have over 50 > > speakers from six continents. > > > > > > > > Although originally conceived of as a way to help mitigate climate > change, > > this NCN conference model has additional advantages: > > > > > > > > 1) Because of the high cost of airfare, scholars from many developing > > countries have long been summarily excluded from international > conferences. > > Without the requirement of travel, scholars can participate from nearly > > anywhere on the globe, especially as asynchronous talks and Q&A sessions, > > privileging no one locale, eliminate the challenge presented by world > time > > zones - thereby facilitating truly global, interactive conferences. > > > > > > > > 2) This conference approach is generally more accessible than its > > traditional counterparts, as A) eliminating travel sidesteps many hurdles > > to physical accessibility, B) prerecorded talks can be closed captioned > for > > hard-of-hearing individuals, and, C) with respect to the blind and > visually > > impaired, the conference website can be optimized to work with audio > screen > > readers and talks can also be made available as audio podcasts. > > > > > > > > 3) Similar to open-access journals, the lasting archive created by the > > conference (both recorded talks and written Q&A discussion) gives nearly > > anyone anywhere with relatively affordable technology instant and lasting > > access to all the cutting-edge material introduced at the event. In > > contrast, traditional conferences are often closed-door affairs open to > > only a privileged few. > > > > > > > > 4) The text-based Q&A sessions, which were open for the three-week > duration > > of the May 2016 UCSB conference, on average generated three times more > > discussion than takes place at its traditional counterpart. One of the > > sessions generated ten times more discussion, making clear that, while > > different from a traditional conference, personal interaction was not > only > > possible, but in certain respects superior. > > > > > > > > 5) Because the cost of such a conference is considerably less than its > > traditional counterparts, a range of groups and institutions that could > not > > ordinarily stage an event of this sort are now able to do so. This > includes > > universities in the developing world previously lacking the significant > > financial resources required to coordinate international conferences. > > > > > > > > 6) Conference talks can be closed captioned in more than one language. > > Although this was not done for the May 2016 conference, future UCSB > events > > are being planned with talks by speakers in their native languages that > > will be closed captioned in English. In addition, we plan to have all > talks > > captioned in Spanish as well as English. > > > > > > > > For more details, do check out our White Paper / Practical Guide: > > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you have any questions, > > please feel free to send them directly to me at the below email address. > > > > > > > > With many thanks for considering this NCN conference approach! > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > Ken Hiltner, Professor > > > > English and Environmental Studies > > > > Director, Environmental Humanities Initiative > > > > 3431 South Hall Administrative Center > > > > University of California, Santa Barbara > > > > Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3170 > > > > hiltner@english.ucsb.edu > > > > ehc.english.ucsb.edu > > > > kenhiltner.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > Department of Education and Distance Learning, Universidade Aberta > Centre of Studies on Migrations and Intercultural Relations (CEMRI) > R. Amial, n? 752, 4200-055 Porto, Portugal > laires@uab.pt > www.uab.pt > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 5 17:13:57 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 17:13:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <1475666030881.84474@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Hi All- This conversation has sparked some really interesting ideas already. I wanted to highlight two of your comments, David, that struck me as worth digging more deeply in to before they fly away into the past. The first was from yesterday's initial note and the second from today's responding to Zaza's note. Each got me thinking. Regarding the first pausing points for me was where you wrote toward the end of your note *I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically disinheriting* *..* So here is provoked thought #1. Might it be useful to answer your question in the affirmative, and generalize it beyond high resolution technology to "technologies that require high levels of socially coordinated action sustained over long periods of time to create." Maybe something as general as "very valuable technologies" might be intrinsicially dis-inheriting. The social processes involved in creating those technologies are rife with existing inequalities of rank/status/role........ and, except in exceptional circumstances (?) those inequalities are increased with the introduction of new higher resolution/more valuable, Anyway, i believe the answer to your question is yes, even if I think so for confused reasons (!) Second Making the analogy between LSV's (and ARL's) insistence on the importance of the study of decline and such regressions in Zimbabwe and elsewhere was really thought provoking for me. And linking this to his defektology is also helpful. *that is, seeing the decay of higher functions as an example of their development in reverse motion (a stripping away of layers to reveal how they were laid on in the first place). * In my view, the revival of interest in Vygotsky's defektology as a methodological commitment as well as a moral commitment seems like one of the potential growing points of contemporary CHAT studies. To make the parallel with historical change provides the other side to Luria's optimistic view of 1931.The first entry that comes up under Fergana Valley, a site of his work in Central Asia on google is the following: http://enews.fergananews.com/index.php?did=2&bracket_flag=1 Plenty of kukiya-kiya going on in that area of the world these days, I suspect. Are we back to the view, which Dewey implemented as part of his curriculum, that ontogeny recapitulates history? For better and for worse? Thanks all for all the thought generation. mike On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 1:57 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Zaza: > > When you say that all agricultural production ceased in Zimbabwe during the > land reform, I take it that you mean that agricultural commodity production > ceased. But one of the things that usually happens during big upsets like > this is a reversion to subsistence agriculture: people grow stuff and eat > it instead of selling it. This happened in China in the late fifties and is > still happening in North Korea. Isn't it possible that is really what > happened? > > It's also not clear to me how complete the collapse of the infrastructure > really is. One of the things that struck me in reading your article was > that the workshop takes place in a well equipped conference room, where > there are apparently video facilities and working electricity. There's also > no mention of something that is often even more basic than electricity, > namely running water; presumably if the mother is going to be producing > formula, she has to have access to clean water. > > Vygotsky talks a lot (at the end of almost every chapter in "The History of > the Development of the Higher Psychological Functions) about a kind of > pathogenetic analysis: that is, seeing the decay of higher functions as an > example of their development in reverse motion (a stripping away of layers > to reveal how they were laid on in the first place). We often forget that > over two thirds of his written work--and almost all of his published > work--was either pedology or "defectology" rather than psychology or > cultural historical theory. > > It's possible to think of what is happening in Zimbabwe (and similar > instances of kukiya-kiya in Cuba and even China after the Soviets were > expelled) as an instance of cultural-historical pathogenesis: the "nice > things" of colonialism and mercantilism get stripped away and the layer of > subsistence agriculture on which it all developed hundreds of years ago is > revealed again. Use values predominate over exchange values, just as when a > stroke victim loses control of the "znachenie" of words but retains their > "smysl". > > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 1:15 AM, Zaza Kabayadondo < > zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com > > wrote: > > > Thank you David and Alfredo for being among the first intrepid readers > and > > for your positive comments on the article. > > > > I also want to thank Mike, Bonnie, Jen, Victor, and Natalia for their > > organization, support, and persistence in promoting this article for > > discussion. > > > > I want to introduce myself to you all and to address any questions and > > discussion points that come up in this thread. > > > > I am from Zimbabwe and have lived in Norway, Australia, and the United > > States (Massachusetts and California). I left Zimbabwe in 2003, years > after > > the contentious land reform program of 1999-2001. After all agricultural > > production ceased in those years, the country slid into a state of > economic > > free fall that persists and worsens today. The displacement of > livelihoods, > > and of a Zimbabwean diaspora, has forced new activities to emerge: > > kukiya-kiya, the everyday hustle that allows citizens to make-do, to > source > > food, money, and deals that can get them by for one more day. > > > > This research is inspired by the ongoing crisis in Zimbabwe. Because of > > economic collapse, Zimbabweans describe themselves as being on the > margins, > > or fringes, politically, geographically, historically. More simply put: > > these are not normal times for the country, and the crisis isolates its > > citizens from the rest of the world. One scholar of the crisis, Jeremy > > Jones, has referred to this difficult period for Zimbabweans as a > > "suspension of the spatio-temporal horizon." (referenced in the article > as > > Jones, 2010) Because the crisis translates to the collapse and disrepair > of > > everyday tools and infrastructure, I find it more helpful to look at the > > crisis as an environment of heightened sensory attention to the material > > that make the relationships between mind, culture, and activity more > > pronounced. The objects surrounding us, in their state of displacement or > > disgrace, don't only communicate affordances in regards to possible > > physical action, they also inspire a very productive questioning (and > > sometimes despair) and reimagining of who we are as social beings. > > > > David is very right in drawing attention to the concept of disinheritance > > as a marriage of Marx's alienation and Vygotsky's cultural heritage. With > > the concept of disinheritance, I am trying to embrace both, so that we > can > > think about the mind with an eye for processes that alienate or > > disenfranchise learners. What is going on in the mind when one is > alienated > > from present activity? In what ways can the activity of making do > > (resourcefulness or the hustle to survive in abnormal times) enrich the > > models we have for mind and culture? > > > > To Alfredo's last comment about the many connections and pursuit of open > > threads - what a pleasant and happy outcome! I have every hope that, > while > > this is indeed a case study from a very unusual time and place, the > concept > > of disinheritance can be useful for examining everyday activity in normal > > times too. Recently, a colleague who studies the history of segregation > in > > the United States, mentioned she could see disinheritance at play in > > "Whites-only" spaces and objects. I am curious to hear what other threads > > and connections XMCA readers find. > > > > Looking forward to more discussion, > > > > Zaza > > > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > > > > I could not agree more with David's remarks concerning the beautiful > > > writing and the sensory explosions that this article is replete with. > > > Indeed, as I was reading it, I was thinking that the reading had a > > > synesthetic aspect to it, as if moving through so very diverse concepts > > and > > > metaphors was like seeing lots of vivid colours one after another, some > > > more enlightening, others almost blinding, but all forming an > incredibly > > > dense wave of topics on the intermeshing of culture and cognition. > > > > > > Among the many (not always followed-up) instances, I found the analysis > > on > > > the section "gendered intimacy" particularly appealing in that the > > analysis > > > shows how the designers come to understand a prosthetic prototype in > and > > > through reference to actual breasts and breastfeeding in a culture, and > > by > > > the same token, come to understand actual breasts and breastfeeding as > > > manifestations of a gendered culture in and through an inquiry into a > > > prosthetic prototype. The same goes for the contrasts between younger > and > > > older generations, urban and rural... > > > > > > The connections are so many that invite to reading like those books > that > > > offer different possibilities to continue the story, and where you can > > > choose jumping from one page to a non-contiguous page depending on the > > > thread you follow. I personally will go back to the text and will > follow > > > some of the opened threads that, precisely because of their low > fidelity, > > > allow moving quite flexibly. But I also hope not to get lost, or just > > > disconnected, and so I guess some degree of fidelity will also be > needed. > > > Thanks for a great read. > > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > > Sent: 05 October 2016 04:44 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > > > > > > The first thing I notice about the paper is how "resplendent" it is in > > > beautiful writing, e.g, > > > > > > "Given this symmetry between prototyping and kukiya-kiya, a prototyping > > bin > > > resplendent with objects of disinheritance would be a powerful way to > see > > > the confluence of mind, culture, and activity." > > > > > > The very next sentence tells us that the prototyping bin is really an > old > > > plastic tub "populated with a sensory explosion of" matter out of > place. > > > Dear XMCA reader, if you haven't read it yet, you are in for a treat. > > > > > > The second thing I notice, though, is the sensory explosion of new > > > concepts, many of which are unexplained, but make perfect sense if you > > sit > > > and think about them. Let me just take the new concepts that appear in > my > > > example sentences, and see if I can gloss them; the author can let me > > know > > > if I have him right. > > > > > > Prototyping means developing objects from "low-fidelity" (that is, poor > > > copies) to "high resolution technology" (i.e. not copies at all, but > new > > > objects). So prototyping involves the emergence of NEW technologies > from > > > the inability to copy the old. For example, in China when the old > Soviet > > > tractors designed for giant Kolkhoz farms all broke down, they > introduced > > > walking tractors (which you can still see everywhere, and which have > now > > > spread to Korea). > > > > > > Kukiya-kiya means the exaptation of high resolution technology for > > > relatively low-fidelity purposes that are more suitable to an economy > now > > > thrown back on a pre-imperialist and even pre-mercantilist subsistence > > > economy. For example, in the Korean countryside, when peasants run out > of > > > washing powder for their washing machines, they use them to store > > > rice. It's in that sense that kukiya-kiya is the opposite of > > prototyping; a > > > symmetrical process. > > > > > > Disinheritance means not simply alienation, in the Marxist sense of > being > > > confronted by but unable to reappropriate the objects of your own > labor, > > > but being written out of the cultural endowment altogether, because the > > > artifacts you have "inherited" confront you as white elephants, > requiring > > > more maintenance than they can possibly justify. > > > > > > I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically > disinheriting. > > > For example, kids can still play board games that are thousands of > years > > > old, but they can't use videogames that were made only decades ago. In > > > contrast, the finest extant technology for making sense of human > > > experience, namely language, is decidedly soft on hardware. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Macquarie University. > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Xmca-ers -- > > > > > > > > Back in June I made a hurried attempt to make available for > discussion > > > the > > > > paper on the design process of Zimbabwean medical professionals > seeking > > > to > > > > create an unusual kind of prosthetic devices. Summer and some > > > communication > > > > came rushing up to overwhelm the effort. > > > > > > > > Zaza has been back in touch and is ready to discuss the paper. I am > > > cutting > > > > and pasting the title and abstract below. And I am attaching the > paper > > > > which was open for free access for a while, but if it is now, I > cannot > > > find > > > > where on the publisher's re-designed web page. > > > > > > > > Summer having passed other impediments will surely arise, but in the > > > > meantime, here is a very unusual paper about design for us to think > > > about. > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Thu Oct 6 00:24:29 2016 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 07:24:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This proposal for a new type of conference raises interesting issues for me in terms of conflict between the obvious benefits of using technology to reduce the consumption associated with big international conferences and the possible costs associated with reducing opportunities for people to meet (as Mark points out). One of the odd features of participation in this forum is that one is engaging with ideas which are (to a greater or lesser extent) disembodied - in the sense of not being associated with a person who is known in the complex ways in which we know people when we have met then and engaged with them in conversation (and especially in more playful forms of conversation such as may be possible in breaks, over meals and in bars). Many big conferences are not great at providing this sort of opportunity and of course we are all used to engaging with ideas through print media which also (usually) provide little opportunity to 'get to know' the author. It feels to me as if there are both risks and benefits associated with the separation of ideas from the people who hold them and this is itself a potentially interesting topic for discussion (in fact I am sure it has cropped up several times on xmca in the past). It would also be interesting to know whether 'digital natives' who have grown up with the internet and screen based communication have found ways to 'get to know' each other through online interactions - ways of seeing behind the masks which people put on to present themselves? All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Chen Sent: 05 October 2016 21:51 To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference Yes! Not just to save on carbon emissions but hopefully to also make them serve a greater academic community incl. students and those without any grant funding or institutional support for travel. Some of the huge benefit to conferences, however, are the informal networking that happens outside of regular sessions (ie, in the hallways, at bars, etc.), so it'd be curious to hear how that is addressed. mark On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > I can't recall if this went out to this listserve. Apologies if it is > a repeat, but this seems like it might be an ideal way to organize a > virtual CHAT conference considering that we have people from all over > the world who like to CHAT but who don't always have money to travel to ISCAR. > > -greg > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > *From:* UCSB EHC [mailto:ehcfellow@gmail.com] > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2016 9:10 PM > *To:* Tami Pugmire > *Subject:* Please circulate within your department: A New Type of > Academic Conference > > > > Dear Tami Pugmire, > > > > Would you be so kind as to forward this email to faculty and graduate > students in your department, as well as anyone else who might be > interested? > > > > This is a follow up email to one I sent out earlier this summer and > outlines an eco-friendly conference approach that we have used at UC > Santa Barbara that has a nearly nonexistent carbon footprint. In order > to encourage other groups to try this conference model, we have > created a White Paper / Practical Guide that explains our approach. > Details are below. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Ken > > > > > > The environmental cost of flying to and from academic conferences is > staggering. When we recently calculated the total greenhouse gas (GHG) > emissions for the UC Santa Barbara (UCSB) campus, we discovered that > roughly a third of our GHG emissions come from air travel to > conferences, talks, and meetings. Putting these GHG emissions into > human terms, this is equal to the total annual carbon footprint of a > city of 27,500 people living in India. And UCSB is just one of nearly > 5000 colleges and universities in the U.S. alone. > > > > This issue can also be approached personally. When Peter Kalmus, a > climate scientist at NASA?s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, did the math > for a recent article in Grist > who-decided-not-to-fly/>, > he found that two-thirds of his personal GHG emissions annually came > from air travel to and from conferences and meetings. > > > > At UCSB we have been experimenting with a new type of nearly-carbon > neutral > (NCN) conference that takes place online (the talks are prerecorded; > the Q&A sessions interactive) and which has GHG emissions that are > less than 1% of its traditional fly-in counterpart. Because we use > open source software, such a conference can be staged for nearly zero > cost. An individual familiar with WordPress installations should be > able to have a conference space (website) prepared in less than a day. > > > > My reason for writing is that we have created a White Paper / > Practical Guide that both explains the rationale behind this NCN > conference approach and also details how to coordinate such an event: > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you are planning a > conference in 2016-17, we urge you to consider this approach. Please > note that this is not in any way a commercial venture. We are just a > group of faculty interested in doing what we can to help mitigate our > profession's worrisome impact on climate change by freely sharing our experience. > > > > Note that this conference model differs significantly from a typical > webinar, as it does not use Skype, Zoom.us, WebEx, GoToMeeting, or any > such real-time teleconferencing solution. In a nutshell, here is how it works: > > > > 1) *Speakers record their own talks*. This can be A) a video of them > speaking, generally filmed with a webcam or smartphone, B) a screen > recording of a presentation, such as a PowerPoint, or C) a hybrid of > the two, with speaker and presentation alternately or simultaneously onscreen. > Because they are prerecorded, talks are closed captioned for greater > accessibility. > > > > 2) *Talks are viewed on the conference website*. Once they are made > available on the conference website, the streaming talks can be viewed > at any time. Talks are organized into panels (i.e. individual > webpages) that generally have three speakers each and a shared Q&A > session ? just like a traditional conference. > > > > 3) *Participants contribute to an online Q&A session*. During the time > that the conference is open, which is generally two or three weeks, > participants can take part in the Q&A sessions for the panels, which > are similar to online forums, by posing and responding to written questions and comments. > Because comments can be made at any time in any time zone, scholars > from across the globe can equally take part in the conference. > > > > For an example of this approach, please visit the website from our May > 2016 NCN conference on "Climate Change: Views from the Humanities," > which provides a full archive of the event, including all talk videos > and Q&A > sessions: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=12687. > > > > To see this model in action (and to take part in the Q&A sessions, if > you like), visit the website for our next NCN conference, ?The World in 2050: > Creating/Imagining Just Climate Futures,? which will take place from > October 24 to November 14, 2016: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/? > page_id=14895. > Keynote speakers include Bill McKibben, Patrick Bond, Erik > Assadourian, and Margaret Klein Salamon. A truly international event, > we have over 50 speakers from six continents. > > > > Although originally conceived of as a way to help mitigate climate > change, this NCN conference model has additional advantages: > > > > 1) Because of the high cost of airfare, scholars from many developing > countries have long been summarily excluded from international conferences. > Without the requirement of travel, scholars can participate from > nearly anywhere on the globe, especially as asynchronous talks and Q&A > sessions, privileging no one locale, eliminate the challenge presented > by world time zones - thereby facilitating truly global, interactive conferences. > > > > 2) This conference approach is generally more accessible than its > traditional counterparts, as A) eliminating travel sidesteps many > hurdles to physical accessibility, B) prerecorded talks can be closed > captioned for hard-of-hearing individuals, and, C) with respect to the > blind and visually impaired, the conference website can be optimized > to work with audio screen readers and talks can also be made available as audio podcasts. > > > > 3) Similar to open-access journals, the lasting archive created by the > conference (both recorded talks and written Q&A discussion) gives > nearly anyone anywhere with relatively affordable technology instant > and lasting access to all the cutting-edge material introduced at the > event. In contrast, traditional conferences are often closed-door > affairs open to only a privileged few. > > > > 4) The text-based Q&A sessions, which were open for the three-week > duration of the May 2016 UCSB conference, on average generated three > times more discussion than takes place at its traditional counterpart. > One of the sessions generated ten times more discussion, making clear > that, while different from a traditional conference, personal > interaction was not only possible, but in certain respects superior. > > > > 5) Because the cost of such a conference is considerably less than its > traditional counterparts, a range of groups and institutions that > could not ordinarily stage an event of this sort are now able to do > so. This includes universities in the developing world previously > lacking the significant financial resources required to coordinate international conferences. > > > > 6) Conference talks can be closed captioned in more than one language. > Although this was not done for the May 2016 conference, future UCSB > events are being planned with talks by speakers in their native > languages that will be closed captioned in English. In addition, we > plan to have all talks captioned in Spanish as well as English. > > > > For more details, do check out our White Paper / Practical Guide: > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you have any questions, > please feel free to send them directly to me at the below email address. > > > > With many thanks for considering this NCN conference approach! > > > > Ken > > > > Ken Hiltner, Professor > > English and Environmental Studies > > Director, Environmental Humanities Initiative > > 3431 South Hall Administrative Center > > University of California, Santa Barbara > > Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3170 > > hiltner@english.ucsb.edu > > ehc.english.ucsb.edu > > kenhiltner.com > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- You see before you *Mark Chen, PhD*. Above his head appears a label that changes every time you look at it between "*Indie Game Designer*," "*Professor of Games and Learning*," and "*Director, Pepperdine Gameful Design Lab*." Do you send him a tweet (*@mcdanger* ), check out his website (*markdangerchen.net* ), or respond to this email? He looks at you expectantly with a smile. ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Thu Oct 6 00:24:29 2016 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 07:24:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This proposal for a new type of conference raises interesting issues for me in terms of conflict between the obvious benefits of using technology to reduce the consumption associated with big international conferences and the possible costs associated with reducing opportunities for people to meet (as Mark points out). One of the odd features of participation in this forum is that one is engaging with ideas which are (to a greater or lesser extent) disembodied - in the sense of not being associated with a person who is known in the complex ways in which we know people when we have met then and engaged with them in conversation (and especially in more playful forms of conversation such as may be possible in breaks, over meals and in bars). Many big conferences are not great at providing this sort of opportunity and of course we are all used to engaging with ideas through print media which also (usually) provide little opportunity to 'get to know' the author. It feels to me as if there are both risks and benefits associated with the separation of ideas from the people who hold them and this is itself a potentially interesting topic for discussion (in fact I am sure it has cropped up several times on xmca in the past). It would also be interesting to know whether 'digital natives' who have grown up with the internet and screen based communication have found ways to 'get to know' each other through online interactions - ways of seeing behind the masks which people put on to present themselves? All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Chen Sent: 05 October 2016 21:51 To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference Yes! Not just to save on carbon emissions but hopefully to also make them serve a greater academic community incl. students and those without any grant funding or institutional support for travel. Some of the huge benefit to conferences, however, are the informal networking that happens outside of regular sessions (ie, in the hallways, at bars, etc.), so it'd be curious to hear how that is addressed. mark On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > I can't recall if this went out to this listserve. Apologies if it is > a repeat, but this seems like it might be an ideal way to organize a > virtual CHAT conference considering that we have people from all over > the world who like to CHAT but who don't always have money to travel to ISCAR. > > -greg > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > *From:* UCSB EHC [mailto:ehcfellow@gmail.com] > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2016 9:10 PM > *To:* Tami Pugmire > *Subject:* Please circulate within your department: A New Type of > Academic Conference > > > > Dear Tami Pugmire, > > > > Would you be so kind as to forward this email to faculty and graduate > students in your department, as well as anyone else who might be > interested? > > > > This is a follow up email to one I sent out earlier this summer and > outlines an eco-friendly conference approach that we have used at UC > Santa Barbara that has a nearly nonexistent carbon footprint. In order > to encourage other groups to try this conference model, we have > created a White Paper / Practical Guide that explains our approach. > Details are below. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Ken > > > > > > The environmental cost of flying to and from academic conferences is > staggering. When we recently calculated the total greenhouse gas (GHG) > emissions for the UC Santa Barbara (UCSB) campus, we discovered that > roughly a third of our GHG emissions come from air travel to > conferences, talks, and meetings. Putting these GHG emissions into > human terms, this is equal to the total annual carbon footprint of a > city of 27,500 people living in India. And UCSB is just one of nearly > 5000 colleges and universities in the U.S. alone. > > > > This issue can also be approached personally. When Peter Kalmus, a > climate scientist at NASA?s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, did the math > for a recent article in Grist > who-decided-not-to-fly/>, > he found that two-thirds of his personal GHG emissions annually came > from air travel to and from conferences and meetings. > > > > At UCSB we have been experimenting with a new type of nearly-carbon > neutral > (NCN) conference that takes place online (the talks are prerecorded; > the Q&A sessions interactive) and which has GHG emissions that are > less than 1% of its traditional fly-in counterpart. Because we use > open source software, such a conference can be staged for nearly zero > cost. An individual familiar with WordPress installations should be > able to have a conference space (website) prepared in less than a day. > > > > My reason for writing is that we have created a White Paper / > Practical Guide that both explains the rationale behind this NCN > conference approach and also details how to coordinate such an event: > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you are planning a > conference in 2016-17, we urge you to consider this approach. Please > note that this is not in any way a commercial venture. We are just a > group of faculty interested in doing what we can to help mitigate our > profession's worrisome impact on climate change by freely sharing our experience. > > > > Note that this conference model differs significantly from a typical > webinar, as it does not use Skype, Zoom.us, WebEx, GoToMeeting, or any > such real-time teleconferencing solution. In a nutshell, here is how it works: > > > > 1) *Speakers record their own talks*. This can be A) a video of them > speaking, generally filmed with a webcam or smartphone, B) a screen > recording of a presentation, such as a PowerPoint, or C) a hybrid of > the two, with speaker and presentation alternately or simultaneously onscreen. > Because they are prerecorded, talks are closed captioned for greater > accessibility. > > > > 2) *Talks are viewed on the conference website*. Once they are made > available on the conference website, the streaming talks can be viewed > at any time. Talks are organized into panels (i.e. individual > webpages) that generally have three speakers each and a shared Q&A > session ? just like a traditional conference. > > > > 3) *Participants contribute to an online Q&A session*. During the time > that the conference is open, which is generally two or three weeks, > participants can take part in the Q&A sessions for the panels, which > are similar to online forums, by posing and responding to written questions and comments. > Because comments can be made at any time in any time zone, scholars > from across the globe can equally take part in the conference. > > > > For an example of this approach, please visit the website from our May > 2016 NCN conference on "Climate Change: Views from the Humanities," > which provides a full archive of the event, including all talk videos > and Q&A > sessions: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=12687. > > > > To see this model in action (and to take part in the Q&A sessions, if > you like), visit the website for our next NCN conference, ?The World in 2050: > Creating/Imagining Just Climate Futures,? which will take place from > October 24 to November 14, 2016: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/? > page_id=14895. > Keynote speakers include Bill McKibben, Patrick Bond, Erik > Assadourian, and Margaret Klein Salamon. A truly international event, > we have over 50 speakers from six continents. > > > > Although originally conceived of as a way to help mitigate climate > change, this NCN conference model has additional advantages: > > > > 1) Because of the high cost of airfare, scholars from many developing > countries have long been summarily excluded from international conferences. > Without the requirement of travel, scholars can participate from > nearly anywhere on the globe, especially as asynchronous talks and Q&A > sessions, privileging no one locale, eliminate the challenge presented > by world time zones - thereby facilitating truly global, interactive conferences. > > > > 2) This conference approach is generally more accessible than its > traditional counterparts, as A) eliminating travel sidesteps many > hurdles to physical accessibility, B) prerecorded talks can be closed > captioned for hard-of-hearing individuals, and, C) with respect to the > blind and visually impaired, the conference website can be optimized > to work with audio screen readers and talks can also be made available as audio podcasts. > > > > 3) Similar to open-access journals, the lasting archive created by the > conference (both recorded talks and written Q&A discussion) gives > nearly anyone anywhere with relatively affordable technology instant > and lasting access to all the cutting-edge material introduced at the > event. In contrast, traditional conferences are often closed-door > affairs open to only a privileged few. > > > > 4) The text-based Q&A sessions, which were open for the three-week > duration of the May 2016 UCSB conference, on average generated three > times more discussion than takes place at its traditional counterpart. > One of the sessions generated ten times more discussion, making clear > that, while different from a traditional conference, personal > interaction was not only possible, but in certain respects superior. > > > > 5) Because the cost of such a conference is considerably less than its > traditional counterparts, a range of groups and institutions that > could not ordinarily stage an event of this sort are now able to do > so. This includes universities in the developing world previously > lacking the significant financial resources required to coordinate international conferences. > > > > 6) Conference talks can be closed captioned in more than one language. > Although this was not done for the May 2016 conference, future UCSB > events are being planned with talks by speakers in their native > languages that will be closed captioned in English. In addition, we > plan to have all talks captioned in Spanish as well as English. > > > > For more details, do check out our White Paper / Practical Guide: > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you have any questions, > please feel free to send them directly to me at the below email address. > > > > With many thanks for considering this NCN conference approach! > > > > Ken > > > > Ken Hiltner, Professor > > English and Environmental Studies > > Director, Environmental Humanities Initiative > > 3431 South Hall Administrative Center > > University of California, Santa Barbara > > Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3170 > > hiltner@english.ucsb.edu > > ehc.english.ucsb.edu > > kenhiltner.com > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- You see before you *Mark Chen, PhD*. Above his head appears a label that changes every time you look at it between "*Indie Game Designer*," "*Professor of Games and Learning*," and "*Director, Pepperdine Gameful Design Lab*." Do you send him a tweet (*@mcdanger* ), check out his website (*markdangerchen.net* ), or respond to this email? He looks at you expectantly with a smile. ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 6 19:55:20 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 20:55:20 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rod and others, Delightful questions about the advantages of face-to-face communication. I particularly like the last question about whether or not millenials have found ways to intimately get to know people through (literally) screens? Relatedly, I do wonder in what ways we could best replicate the informal in-the-hall meeting opportunities via computers? The temporal displacement that was described in the original email (they held the conference over 2 weeks during which people could watch and comment on the talks - in their own time zones). Or maybe that's going about it all wrong. Maybe a better way is to think: what can a virtual conference like this DO that face-to-face communication can't do? In addition to the other benefits of being able to involve many people who wouldn't otherwise have been able to participate, the organizers of the conference mentioned that one thing that it did was it got a lot more conversation going than they would have had if it were a face-to-face conference - and this happens precisely because the temporal displacement enables more people to participate. Are there other things that a virtual conference could do that an in-person conference couldn't do? Wondering about possibilites. -greg On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > This proposal for a new type of conference raises interesting issues for > me in terms of conflict between the obvious benefits of using technology to > reduce the consumption associated with big international conferences and > the possible costs associated with reducing opportunities for people to > meet (as Mark points out). > > One of the odd features of participation in this forum is that one is > engaging with ideas which are (to a greater or lesser extent) disembodied - > in the sense of not being associated with a person who is known in the > complex ways in which we know people when we have met then and engaged with > them in conversation (and especially in more playful forms of conversation > such as may be possible in breaks, over meals and in bars). Many big > conferences are not great at providing this sort of opportunity and of > course we are all used to engaging with ideas through print media which > also (usually) provide little opportunity to 'get to know' the author. > > It feels to me as if there are both risks and benefits associated with the > separation of ideas from the people who hold them and this is itself a > potentially interesting topic for discussion (in fact I am sure it has > cropped up several times on xmca in the past). > > It would also be interesting to know whether 'digital natives' who have > grown up with the internet and screen based communication have found ways > to 'get to know' each other through online interactions - ways of seeing > behind the masks which people put on to present themselves? > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Chen > Sent: 05 October 2016 21:51 > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference > > Yes! > > Not just to save on carbon emissions but hopefully to also make them serve > a greater academic community incl. students and those without any grant > funding or institutional support for travel. > > Some of the huge benefit to conferences, however, are the informal > networking that happens outside of regular sessions (ie, in the hallways, > at bars, etc.), so it'd be curious to hear how that is addressed. > > mark > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > I can't recall if this went out to this listserve. Apologies if it is > > a repeat, but this seems like it might be an ideal way to organize a > > virtual CHAT conference considering that we have people from all over > > the world who like to CHAT but who don't always have money to travel to > ISCAR. > > > > -greg > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > *From:* UCSB EHC [mailto:ehcfellow@gmail.com] > > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2016 9:10 PM > > *To:* Tami Pugmire > > *Subject:* Please circulate within your department: A New Type of > > Academic Conference > > > > > > > > Dear Tami Pugmire, > > > > > > > > Would you be so kind as to forward this email to faculty and graduate > > students in your department, as well as anyone else who might be > > interested? > > > > > > > > This is a follow up email to one I sent out earlier this summer and > > outlines an eco-friendly conference approach that we have used at UC > > Santa Barbara that has a nearly nonexistent carbon footprint. In order > > to encourage other groups to try this conference model, we have > > created a White Paper / Practical Guide that explains our approach. > > Details are below. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > The environmental cost of flying to and from academic conferences is > > staggering. When we recently calculated the total greenhouse gas (GHG) > > emissions for the UC Santa Barbara (UCSB) campus, we discovered that > > roughly a third of our GHG emissions come from air travel to > > conferences, talks, and meetings. Putting these GHG emissions into > > human terms, this is equal to the total annual carbon footprint of a > > city of 27,500 people living in India. And UCSB is just one of nearly > > 5000 colleges and universities in the U.S. alone. > > > > > > > > This issue can also be approached personally. When Peter Kalmus, a > > climate scientist at NASA?s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, did the math > > for a recent article in Grist > > > who-decided-not-to-fly/>, > > he found that two-thirds of his personal GHG emissions annually came > > from air travel to and from conferences and meetings. > > > > > > > > At UCSB we have been experimenting with a new type of nearly-carbon > > neutral > > (NCN) conference that takes place online (the talks are prerecorded; > > the Q&A sessions interactive) and which has GHG emissions that are > > less than 1% of its traditional fly-in counterpart. Because we use > > open source software, such a conference can be staged for nearly zero > > cost. An individual familiar with WordPress installations should be > > able to have a conference space (website) prepared in less than a day. > > > > > > > > My reason for writing is that we have created a White Paper / > > Practical Guide that both explains the rationale behind this NCN > > conference approach and also details how to coordinate such an event: > > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you are planning a > > conference in 2016-17, we urge you to consider this approach. Please > > note that this is not in any way a commercial venture. We are just a > > group of faculty interested in doing what we can to help mitigate our > > profession's worrisome impact on climate change by freely sharing our > experience. > > > > > > > > Note that this conference model differs significantly from a typical > > webinar, as it does not use Skype, Zoom.us, WebEx, GoToMeeting, or any > > such real-time teleconferencing solution. In a nutshell, here is how it > works: > > > > > > > > 1) *Speakers record their own talks*. This can be A) a video of them > > speaking, generally filmed with a webcam or smartphone, B) a screen > > recording of a presentation, such as a PowerPoint, or C) a hybrid of > > the two, with speaker and presentation alternately or simultaneously > onscreen. > > Because they are prerecorded, talks are closed captioned for greater > > accessibility. > > > > > > > > 2) *Talks are viewed on the conference website*. Once they are made > > available on the conference website, the streaming talks can be viewed > > at any time. Talks are organized into panels (i.e. individual > > webpages) that generally have three speakers each and a shared Q&A > > session ? just like a traditional conference. > > > > > > > > 3) *Participants contribute to an online Q&A session*. During the time > > that the conference is open, which is generally two or three weeks, > > participants can take part in the Q&A sessions for the panels, which > > are similar to online forums, by posing and responding to written > questions and comments. > > Because comments can be made at any time in any time zone, scholars > > from across the globe can equally take part in the conference. > > > > > > > > For an example of this approach, please visit the website from our May > > 2016 NCN conference on "Climate Change: Views from the Humanities," > > which provides a full archive of the event, including all talk videos > > and Q&A > > sessions: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=12687. > > > > > > > > To see this model in action (and to take part in the Q&A sessions, if > > you like), visit the website for our next NCN conference, ?The World in > 2050: > > Creating/Imagining Just Climate Futures,? which will take place from > > October 24 to November 14, 2016: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/? > > page_id=14895. > > Keynote speakers include Bill McKibben, Patrick Bond, Erik > > Assadourian, and Margaret Klein Salamon. A truly international event, > > we have over 50 speakers from six continents. > > > > > > > > Although originally conceived of as a way to help mitigate climate > > change, this NCN conference model has additional advantages: > > > > > > > > 1) Because of the high cost of airfare, scholars from many developing > > countries have long been summarily excluded from international > conferences. > > Without the requirement of travel, scholars can participate from > > nearly anywhere on the globe, especially as asynchronous talks and Q&A > > sessions, privileging no one locale, eliminate the challenge presented > > by world time zones - thereby facilitating truly global, interactive > conferences. > > > > > > > > 2) This conference approach is generally more accessible than its > > traditional counterparts, as A) eliminating travel sidesteps many > > hurdles to physical accessibility, B) prerecorded talks can be closed > > captioned for hard-of-hearing individuals, and, C) with respect to the > > blind and visually impaired, the conference website can be optimized > > to work with audio screen readers and talks can also be made available > as audio podcasts. > > > > > > > > 3) Similar to open-access journals, the lasting archive created by the > > conference (both recorded talks and written Q&A discussion) gives > > nearly anyone anywhere with relatively affordable technology instant > > and lasting access to all the cutting-edge material introduced at the > > event. In contrast, traditional conferences are often closed-door > > affairs open to only a privileged few. > > > > > > > > 4) The text-based Q&A sessions, which were open for the three-week > > duration of the May 2016 UCSB conference, on average generated three > > times more discussion than takes place at its traditional counterpart. > > One of the sessions generated ten times more discussion, making clear > > that, while different from a traditional conference, personal > > interaction was not only possible, but in certain respects superior. > > > > > > > > 5) Because the cost of such a conference is considerably less than its > > traditional counterparts, a range of groups and institutions that > > could not ordinarily stage an event of this sort are now able to do > > so. This includes universities in the developing world previously > > lacking the significant financial resources required to coordinate > international conferences. > > > > > > > > 6) Conference talks can be closed captioned in more than one language. > > Although this was not done for the May 2016 conference, future UCSB > > events are being planned with talks by speakers in their native > > languages that will be closed captioned in English. In addition, we > > plan to have all talks captioned in Spanish as well as English. > > > > > > > > For more details, do check out our White Paper / Practical Guide: > > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you have any questions, > > please feel free to send them directly to me at the below email address. > > > > > > > > With many thanks for considering this NCN conference approach! > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > Ken Hiltner, Professor > > > > English and Environmental Studies > > > > Director, Environmental Humanities Initiative > > > > 3431 South Hall Administrative Center > > > > University of California, Santa Barbara > > > > Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3170 > > > > hiltner@english.ucsb.edu > > > > ehc.english.ucsb.edu > > > > kenhiltner.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > You see before you *Mark Chen, PhD*. Above his head appears a label that > changes every time you look at it between "*Indie Game Designer*," > "*Professor of Games and Learning*," and "*Director, Pepperdine Gameful > Design Lab*." > Do you send him a tweet (*@mcdanger* ), > check out his website (*markdangerchen.net* ), > or respond to this email? > He looks at you expectantly with a smile. > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] //www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 6 19:55:20 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 20:55:20 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rod and others, Delightful questions about the advantages of face-to-face communication. I particularly like the last question about whether or not millenials have found ways to intimately get to know people through (literally) screens? Relatedly, I do wonder in what ways we could best replicate the informal in-the-hall meeting opportunities via computers? The temporal displacement that was described in the original email (they held the conference over 2 weeks during which people could watch and comment on the talks - in their own time zones). Or maybe that's going about it all wrong. Maybe a better way is to think: what can a virtual conference like this DO that face-to-face communication can't do? In addition to the other benefits of being able to involve many people who wouldn't otherwise have been able to participate, the organizers of the conference mentioned that one thing that it did was it got a lot more conversation going than they would have had if it were a face-to-face conference - and this happens precisely because the temporal displacement enables more people to participate. Are there other things that a virtual conference could do that an in-person conference couldn't do? Wondering about possibilites. -greg On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > This proposal for a new type of conference raises interesting issues for > me in terms of conflict between the obvious benefits of using technology to > reduce the consumption associated with big international conferences and > the possible costs associated with reducing opportunities for people to > meet (as Mark points out). > > One of the odd features of participation in this forum is that one is > engaging with ideas which are (to a greater or lesser extent) disembodied - > in the sense of not being associated with a person who is known in the > complex ways in which we know people when we have met then and engaged with > them in conversation (and especially in more playful forms of conversation > such as may be possible in breaks, over meals and in bars). Many big > conferences are not great at providing this sort of opportunity and of > course we are all used to engaging with ideas through print media which > also (usually) provide little opportunity to 'get to know' the author. > > It feels to me as if there are both risks and benefits associated with the > separation of ideas from the people who hold them and this is itself a > potentially interesting topic for discussion (in fact I am sure it has > cropped up several times on xmca in the past). > > It would also be interesting to know whether 'digital natives' who have > grown up with the internet and screen based communication have found ways > to 'get to know' each other through online interactions - ways of seeing > behind the masks which people put on to present themselves? > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Chen > Sent: 05 October 2016 21:51 > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A New Type of Academic Conference > > Yes! > > Not just to save on carbon emissions but hopefully to also make them serve > a greater academic community incl. students and those without any grant > funding or institutional support for travel. > > Some of the huge benefit to conferences, however, are the informal > networking that happens outside of regular sessions (ie, in the hallways, > at bars, etc.), so it'd be curious to hear how that is addressed. > > mark > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > I can't recall if this went out to this listserve. Apologies if it is > > a repeat, but this seems like it might be an ideal way to organize a > > virtual CHAT conference considering that we have people from all over > > the world who like to CHAT but who don't always have money to travel to > ISCAR. > > > > -greg > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > *From:* UCSB EHC [mailto:ehcfellow@gmail.com] > > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2016 9:10 PM > > *To:* Tami Pugmire > > *Subject:* Please circulate within your department: A New Type of > > Academic Conference > > > > > > > > Dear Tami Pugmire, > > > > > > > > Would you be so kind as to forward this email to faculty and graduate > > students in your department, as well as anyone else who might be > > interested? > > > > > > > > This is a follow up email to one I sent out earlier this summer and > > outlines an eco-friendly conference approach that we have used at UC > > Santa Barbara that has a nearly nonexistent carbon footprint. In order > > to encourage other groups to try this conference model, we have > > created a White Paper / Practical Guide that explains our approach. > > Details are below. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > The environmental cost of flying to and from academic conferences is > > staggering. When we recently calculated the total greenhouse gas (GHG) > > emissions for the UC Santa Barbara (UCSB) campus, we discovered that > > roughly a third of our GHG emissions come from air travel to > > conferences, talks, and meetings. Putting these GHG emissions into > > human terms, this is equal to the total annual carbon footprint of a > > city of 27,500 people living in India. And UCSB is just one of nearly > > 5000 colleges and universities in the U.S. alone. > > > > > > > > This issue can also be approached personally. When Peter Kalmus, a > > climate scientist at NASA?s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, did the math > > for a recent article in Grist > > > who-decided-not-to-fly/>, > > he found that two-thirds of his personal GHG emissions annually came > > from air travel to and from conferences and meetings. > > > > > > > > At UCSB we have been experimenting with a new type of nearly-carbon > > neutral > > (NCN) conference that takes place online (the talks are prerecorded; > > the Q&A sessions interactive) and which has GHG emissions that are > > less than 1% of its traditional fly-in counterpart. Because we use > > open source software, such a conference can be staged for nearly zero > > cost. An individual familiar with WordPress installations should be > > able to have a conference space (website) prepared in less than a day. > > > > > > > > My reason for writing is that we have created a White Paper / > > Practical Guide that both explains the rationale behind this NCN > > conference approach and also details how to coordinate such an event: > > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you are planning a > > conference in 2016-17, we urge you to consider this approach. Please > > note that this is not in any way a commercial venture. We are just a > > group of faculty interested in doing what we can to help mitigate our > > profession's worrisome impact on climate change by freely sharing our > experience. > > > > > > > > Note that this conference model differs significantly from a typical > > webinar, as it does not use Skype, Zoom.us, WebEx, GoToMeeting, or any > > such real-time teleconferencing solution. In a nutshell, here is how it > works: > > > > > > > > 1) *Speakers record their own talks*. This can be A) a video of them > > speaking, generally filmed with a webcam or smartphone, B) a screen > > recording of a presentation, such as a PowerPoint, or C) a hybrid of > > the two, with speaker and presentation alternately or simultaneously > onscreen. > > Because they are prerecorded, talks are closed captioned for greater > > accessibility. > > > > > > > > 2) *Talks are viewed on the conference website*. Once they are made > > available on the conference website, the streaming talks can be viewed > > at any time. Talks are organized into panels (i.e. individual > > webpages) that generally have three speakers each and a shared Q&A > > session ? just like a traditional conference. > > > > > > > > 3) *Participants contribute to an online Q&A session*. During the time > > that the conference is open, which is generally two or three weeks, > > participants can take part in the Q&A sessions for the panels, which > > are similar to online forums, by posing and responding to written > questions and comments. > > Because comments can be made at any time in any time zone, scholars > > from across the globe can equally take part in the conference. > > > > > > > > For an example of this approach, please visit the website from our May > > 2016 NCN conference on "Climate Change: Views from the Humanities," > > which provides a full archive of the event, including all talk videos > > and Q&A > > sessions: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=12687. > > > > > > > > To see this model in action (and to take part in the Q&A sessions, if > > you like), visit the website for our next NCN conference, ?The World in > 2050: > > Creating/Imagining Just Climate Futures,? which will take place from > > October 24 to November 14, 2016: http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/? > > page_id=14895. > > Keynote speakers include Bill McKibben, Patrick Bond, Erik > > Assadourian, and Margaret Klein Salamon. A truly international event, > > we have over 50 speakers from six continents. > > > > > > > > Although originally conceived of as a way to help mitigate climate > > change, this NCN conference model has additional advantages: > > > > > > > > 1) Because of the high cost of airfare, scholars from many developing > > countries have long been summarily excluded from international > conferences. > > Without the requirement of travel, scholars can participate from > > nearly anywhere on the globe, especially as asynchronous talks and Q&A > > sessions, privileging no one locale, eliminate the challenge presented > > by world time zones - thereby facilitating truly global, interactive > conferences. > > > > > > > > 2) This conference approach is generally more accessible than its > > traditional counterparts, as A) eliminating travel sidesteps many > > hurdles to physical accessibility, B) prerecorded talks can be closed > > captioned for hard-of-hearing individuals, and, C) with respect to the > > blind and visually impaired, the conference website can be optimized > > to work with audio screen readers and talks can also be made available > as audio podcasts. > > > > > > > > 3) Similar to open-access journals, the lasting archive created by the > > conference (both recorded talks and written Q&A discussion) gives > > nearly anyone anywhere with relatively affordable technology instant > > and lasting access to all the cutting-edge material introduced at the > > event. In contrast, traditional conferences are often closed-door > > affairs open to only a privileged few. > > > > > > > > 4) The text-based Q&A sessions, which were open for the three-week > > duration of the May 2016 UCSB conference, on average generated three > > times more discussion than takes place at its traditional counterpart. > > One of the sessions generated ten times more discussion, making clear > > that, while different from a traditional conference, personal > > interaction was not only possible, but in certain respects superior. > > > > > > > > 5) Because the cost of such a conference is considerably less than its > > traditional counterparts, a range of groups and institutions that > > could not ordinarily stage an event of this sort are now able to do > > so. This includes universities in the developing world previously > > lacking the significant financial resources required to coordinate > international conferences. > > > > > > > > 6) Conference talks can be closed captioned in more than one language. > > Although this was not done for the May 2016 conference, future UCSB > > events are being planned with talks by speakers in their native > > languages that will be closed captioned in English. In addition, we > > plan to have all talks captioned in Spanish as well as English. > > > > > > > > For more details, do check out our White Paper / Practical Guide: > > http://ehc.english.ucsb.edu/?page_id=14080. If you have any questions, > > please feel free to send them directly to me at the below email address. > > > > > > > > With many thanks for considering this NCN conference approach! > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > Ken Hiltner, Professor > > > > English and Environmental Studies > > > > Director, Environmental Humanities Initiative > > > > 3431 South Hall Administrative Center > > > > University of California, Santa Barbara > > > > Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3170 > > > > hiltner@english.ucsb.edu > > > > ehc.english.ucsb.edu > > > > kenhiltner.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > You see before you *Mark Chen, PhD*. Above his head appears a label that > changes every time you look at it between "*Indie Game Designer*," > "*Professor of Games and Learning*," and "*Director, Pepperdine Gameful > Design Lab*." > Do you send him a tweet (*@mcdanger* ), > check out his website (*markdangerchen.net* ), > or respond to this email? > He looks at you expectantly with a smile. > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] //www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Oct 6 21:24:22 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 15:24:22 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <1475666030881.84474@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Mike, Zazza: What high resolution technologies seems to refer to is the ability to produce exact copies, e.g. a breast prosthesis with simulated skin, simulated nipple, and other "nice things", the sort of thing that Angelina Jolie had with her double mastectomy rather than the low-fidelity prosthetic devices in Zazza's article, which allowed Zimbabwean men to enjoy breast-feeding for the first time in their cultural history. I think Mike is right and "high resolution technology" is too narrow for the phenomenon, but maybe "technologies that require high levels of socially coordinated action sustained over long periods of time to create" is a little too wide: temple-building, language, and literature all qualify, but they do not necessarily involve disinheritance. I think Zazza is really just looking at a diachronic dimension of good old fashioned alienation, like making Louis Vuitton handbags in Hunan province, where nobody has a real sense of commodity as a serious social signifier). High fidelity prosthetics need capital intensive technology, but capital intensive technology can also be very low fidelity (a welding robot, as opposed to a flesh-and-blood welder). Contrariwise, labor intensive technology can be surprisingly high fidelity: handwriting, for example, or pronunciation. Halliday says that the differentiation of the content plane of thinking between "meaning" and "wording" is what essentially created the human brain. But the differentiation of the expression plane, between phonetics and phonology, is what created writing, and writing made it possible to turn culture into history. "Ontogeny recreates history" is a gross oversimplification, of course: what ontogeny really does to history is to slow it down and continue it by new and more volitional means, just as history was able to slow down evolution and continue it without killing off everything that doesn't quite fit. True, life gets shorter and shorter the more you get into it, but with writing it hardly matters: other people will continue my thoughts far better than I can, precisely because I have to think them in a time and place where we starve the thoughts that don't quite fit. I am always curious at the sharp intake of breath that you get from people when they hear the term "defectology". The very same people will not bat an eye when you say "disabled". Functionalism? Or just another spin the euphemistic treadmill? David Kellogg Macquarie University On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > Hi All- > > This conversation has sparked some really interesting ideas already. I > wanted to highlight two of your comments, David, that struck me as worth > digging more deeply in to before they fly away into the past. > > > > The first was from yesterday's initial note and the second from today's > responding to Zaza's note. > > > > Each got me thinking. Regarding the first pausing points for me was where > you wrote toward the end of your note > > > > *I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically disinheriting* > *..* > > > > So here is provoked thought #1. Might it be useful to answer your question > in the affirmative, and generalize it beyond high resolution technology to > "technologies that require high levels of socially coordinated action > sustained over long periods of time to create." Maybe something as general > as "very valuable technologies" might be intrinsicially dis-inheriting. > The social processes involved in creating those technologies are rife with > existing inequalities of rank/status/role........ and, except in > exceptional circumstances (?) those inequalities are increased with the > introduction of new higher resolution/more valuable, > > > > Anyway, i believe the answer to your question is yes, even if I think so > for confused reasons (!) > > > > Second > > Making the analogy between LSV's (and ARL's) insistence on the importance > of the study of decline and such regressions in Zimbabwe and elsewhere was > really thought provoking for me. > > > > And linking this to his defektology is also helpful. > > > > > > *that is, seeing the decay of higher functions as an example of their > development in reverse motion (a stripping away of layers to reveal how > they were laid on in the first place). * > > > > In my view, the revival of interest in Vygotsky's defektology as a > methodological commitment as well as a moral commitment seems like one of > the potential growing points of contemporary CHAT studies. > > > > To make the parallel with historical change provides the other side to > Luria's optimistic view of 1931.The first entry that comes up under Fergana > Valley, a site of his work in Central Asia on google is the following: > > > > http://enews.fergananews.com/index.php?did=2&bracket_flag=1 > > > > Plenty of kukiya-kiya going on in that area of the world these days, I > suspect. > > > > Are we back to the view, which Dewey implemented as part of his curriculum, > that ontogeny recapitulates history? For better and for worse? > > > > Thanks all for all the thought generation. > > > > mike > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 1:57 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Zaza: > > > > When you say that all agricultural production ceased in Zimbabwe during > the > > land reform, I take it that you mean that agricultural commodity > production > > ceased. But one of the things that usually happens during big upsets like > > this is a reversion to subsistence agriculture: people grow stuff and eat > > it instead of selling it. This happened in China in the late fifties and > is > > still happening in North Korea. Isn't it possible that is really what > > happened? > > > > It's also not clear to me how complete the collapse of the infrastructure > > really is. One of the things that struck me in reading your article was > > that the workshop takes place in a well equipped conference room, where > > there are apparently video facilities and working electricity. There's > also > > no mention of something that is often even more basic than electricity, > > namely running water; presumably if the mother is going to be producing > > formula, she has to have access to clean water. > > > > Vygotsky talks a lot (at the end of almost every chapter in "The History > of > > the Development of the Higher Psychological Functions) about a kind of > > pathogenetic analysis: that is, seeing the decay of higher functions as > an > > example of their development in reverse motion (a stripping away of > layers > > to reveal how they were laid on in the first place). We often forget that > > over two thirds of his written work--and almost all of his published > > work--was either pedology or "defectology" rather than psychology or > > cultural historical theory. > > > > It's possible to think of what is happening in Zimbabwe (and similar > > instances of kukiya-kiya in Cuba and even China after the Soviets were > > expelled) as an instance of cultural-historical pathogenesis: the "nice > > things" of colonialism and mercantilism get stripped away and the layer > of > > subsistence agriculture on which it all developed hundreds of years ago > is > > revealed again. Use values predominate over exchange values, just as > when a > > stroke victim loses control of the "znachenie" of words but retains their > > "smysl". > > > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 1:15 AM, Zaza Kabayadondo < > > zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > > > Thank you David and Alfredo for being among the first intrepid readers > > and > > > for your positive comments on the article. > > > > > > I also want to thank Mike, Bonnie, Jen, Victor, and Natalia for their > > > organization, support, and persistence in promoting this article for > > > discussion. > > > > > > I want to introduce myself to you all and to address any questions and > > > discussion points that come up in this thread. > > > > > > I am from Zimbabwe and have lived in Norway, Australia, and the United > > > States (Massachusetts and California). I left Zimbabwe in 2003, years > > after > > > the contentious land reform program of 1999-2001. After all > agricultural > > > production ceased in those years, the country slid into a state of > > economic > > > free fall that persists and worsens today. The displacement of > > livelihoods, > > > and of a Zimbabwean diaspora, has forced new activities to emerge: > > > kukiya-kiya, the everyday hustle that allows citizens to make-do, to > > source > > > food, money, and deals that can get them by for one more day. > > > > > > This research is inspired by the ongoing crisis in Zimbabwe. Because of > > > economic collapse, Zimbabweans describe themselves as being on the > > margins, > > > or fringes, politically, geographically, historically. More simply put: > > > these are not normal times for the country, and the crisis isolates its > > > citizens from the rest of the world. One scholar of the crisis, Jeremy > > > Jones, has referred to this difficult period for Zimbabweans as a > > > "suspension of the spatio-temporal horizon." (referenced in the article > > as > > > Jones, 2010) Because the crisis translates to the collapse and > disrepair > > of > > > everyday tools and infrastructure, I find it more helpful to look at > the > > > crisis as an environment of heightened sensory attention to the > material > > > that make the relationships between mind, culture, and activity more > > > pronounced. The objects surrounding us, in their state of displacement > or > > > disgrace, don't only communicate affordances in regards to possible > > > physical action, they also inspire a very productive questioning (and > > > sometimes despair) and reimagining of who we are as social beings. > > > > > > David is very right in drawing attention to the concept of > disinheritance > > > as a marriage of Marx's alienation and Vygotsky's cultural heritage. > With > > > the concept of disinheritance, I am trying to embrace both, so that we > > can > > > think about the mind with an eye for processes that alienate or > > > disenfranchise learners. What is going on in the mind when one is > > alienated > > > from present activity? In what ways can the activity of making do > > > (resourcefulness or the hustle to survive in abnormal times) enrich the > > > models we have for mind and culture? > > > > > > To Alfredo's last comment about the many connections and pursuit of > open > > > threads - what a pleasant and happy outcome! I have every hope that, > > while > > > this is indeed a case study from a very unusual time and place, the > > concept > > > of disinheritance can be useful for examining everyday activity in > normal > > > times too. Recently, a colleague who studies the history of segregation > > in > > > the United States, mentioned she could see disinheritance at play in > > > "Whites-only" spaces and objects. I am curious to hear what other > threads > > > and connections XMCA readers find. > > > > > > Looking forward to more discussion, > > > > > > Zaza > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I could not agree more with David's remarks concerning the beautiful > > > > writing and the sensory explosions that this article is replete with. > > > > Indeed, as I was reading it, I was thinking that the reading had a > > > > synesthetic aspect to it, as if moving through so very diverse > concepts > > > and > > > > metaphors was like seeing lots of vivid colours one after another, > some > > > > more enlightening, others almost blinding, but all forming an > > incredibly > > > > dense wave of topics on the intermeshing of culture and cognition. > > > > > > > > Among the many (not always followed-up) instances, I found the > analysis > > > on > > > > the section "gendered intimacy" particularly appealing in that the > > > analysis > > > > shows how the designers come to understand a prosthetic prototype in > > and > > > > through reference to actual breasts and breastfeeding in a culture, > and > > > by > > > > the same token, come to understand actual breasts and breastfeeding > as > > > > manifestations of a gendered culture in and through an inquiry into a > > > > prosthetic prototype. The same goes for the contrasts between younger > > and > > > > older generations, urban and rural... > > > > > > > > The connections are so many that invite to reading like those books > > that > > > > offer different possibilities to continue the story, and where you > can > > > > choose jumping from one page to a non-contiguous page depending on > the > > > > thread you follow. I personally will go back to the text and will > > follow > > > > some of the opened threads that, precisely because of their low > > fidelity, > > > > allow moving quite flexibly. But I also hope not to get lost, or just > > > > disconnected, and so I guess some degree of fidelity will also be > > needed. > > > > Thanks for a great read. > > > > Alfredo > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > > > Sent: 05 October 2016 04:44 > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > > > > > > > > The first thing I notice about the paper is how "resplendent" it is > in > > > > beautiful writing, e.g, > > > > > > > > "Given this symmetry between prototyping and kukiya-kiya, a > prototyping > > > bin > > > > resplendent with objects of disinheritance would be a powerful way to > > see > > > > the confluence of mind, culture, and activity." > > > > > > > > The very next sentence tells us that the prototyping bin is really an > > old > > > > plastic tub "populated with a sensory explosion of" matter out of > > place. > > > > Dear XMCA reader, if you haven't read it yet, you are in for a treat. > > > > > > > > The second thing I notice, though, is the sensory explosion of new > > > > concepts, many of which are unexplained, but make perfect sense if > you > > > sit > > > > and think about them. Let me just take the new concepts that appear > in > > my > > > > example sentences, and see if I can gloss them; the author can let me > > > know > > > > if I have him right. > > > > > > > > Prototyping means developing objects from "low-fidelity" (that is, > poor > > > > copies) to "high resolution technology" (i.e. not copies at all, but > > new > > > > objects). So prototyping involves the emergence of NEW technologies > > from > > > > the inability to copy the old. For example, in China when the old > > Soviet > > > > tractors designed for giant Kolkhoz farms all broke down, they > > introduced > > > > walking tractors (which you can still see everywhere, and which have > > now > > > > spread to Korea). > > > > > > > > Kukiya-kiya means the exaptation of high resolution technology for > > > > relatively low-fidelity purposes that are more suitable to an economy > > now > > > > thrown back on a pre-imperialist and even pre-mercantilist > subsistence > > > > economy. For example, in the Korean countryside, when peasants run > out > > of > > > > washing powder for their washing machines, they use them to store > > > > rice. It's in that sense that kukiya-kiya is the opposite of > > > prototyping; a > > > > symmetrical process. > > > > > > > > Disinheritance means not simply alienation, in the Marxist sense of > > being > > > > confronted by but unable to reappropriate the objects of your own > > labor, > > > > but being written out of the cultural endowment altogether, because > the > > > > artifacts you have "inherited" confront you as white elephants, > > requiring > > > > more maintenance than they can possibly justify. > > > > > > > > I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically > > disinheriting. > > > > For example, kids can still play board games that are thousands of > > years > > > > old, but they can't use videogames that were made only decades ago. > In > > > > contrast, the finest extant technology for making sense of human > > > > experience, namely language, is decidedly soft on hardware. > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Macquarie University. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Xmca-ers -- > > > > > > > > > > Back in June I made a hurried attempt to make available for > > discussion > > > > the > > > > > paper on the design process of Zimbabwean medical professionals > > seeking > > > > to > > > > > create an unusual kind of prosthetic devices. Summer and some > > > > communication > > > > > came rushing up to overwhelm the effort. > > > > > > > > > > Zaza has been back in touch and is ready to discuss the paper. I am > > > > cutting > > > > > and pasting the title and abstract below. And I am attaching the > > paper > > > > > which was open for free access for a while, but if it is now, I > > cannot > > > > find > > > > > where on the publisher's re-designed web page. > > > > > > > > > > Summer having passed other impediments will surely arise, but in > the > > > > > meantime, here is a very unusual paper about design for us to think > > > > about. > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Oct 7 07:13:04 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 07:13:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <1475666030881.84474@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <57f7ad81.0af6420a.8ed38.6f9c@mx.google.com> I paused at the introduction or the opening onto what is referred to as a scene (unfolding). A question posed: HOW a collaborative team is learning to be creative. The next sentence introduced the WHO. The answer includes six professionals (all medical professionals) ? a psychiatry researcher, two physiotherapy students, a physician-researcher, and a biopharmacologist. WHAT is their intent? To construct (design) a representation OF an idea. To do this is to create a prototype. The 2nd paragraph further elaborates and focuses this scene on prototyping and the author/narrator turns our attention to proto typing as the unit of analysis used FOR coming to understand the way the six medical professionals engage in learning to be creative. The prototype IS simultaneously (in time and space) expressing multiple values. 1) The prototype is GIVEN 2) The prototype is SOCIALLY constructed 3) The prototype is CONTESTED 4) The prototype is EMERGENT The focus of the article on this unit of analysis helps the six medical professionals *to determine* the WHAT is required in the way of concrete features that must go into this unit of analysis. Prototyping is a verb form which provides *insight* into how people think both: 1) With cultural artifacts and 2) About cultural artifacts Prototyping helps focus attention on learning as developing *skills* that can be applied within nonconventional (non normative?) scenarios using this unit of analysis to proceed. In this activity of learning these skills entails two different intersecting LEVELS of cognitive activity: 1) Learning the skills involved in prototyping 2) Learning HOW to learn about a subject (a subject matter that matters). The reason or purpose of this type of learning is in order to radically ALTER perceptions'. In this case perceptions within a particular field ? the medical field (to which the 6 medical professionals belong). Prototyping is a form of choreo/graphic performance that opens onto two intersecting themes. It focus our attention on both: 1) WHAT the team members are doing 2) Different futures become imaginable. This prototyping choreography of this scene puts on display HOW emergent tools being developed come to be loaded with *previous patterns of reasoning*. I paused and slowed down my reading of the first two paragraphs of the introduction (the opening onto this scene) and decided to reflect back the particular way I paused to become carried into the world of prototyping in order to gain access into the article Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: David Kellogg From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Oct 7 19:31:14 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 19:31:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?From_newyorker=2Ecom=3A_He=E2=80=99s_Back?= Message-ID: <57f85a86.ec88420a.1ca0.d2a6@mx.google.com> This is an article by Louis Menard that is a fascinating read. I hope the link comes through He?s Back http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/10/karl-marx-yesterday-and-today Sent from my Windows 10 phone From ablunden@mira.net Fri Oct 7 22:33:24 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 16:33:24 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?From_newyorker=2Ecom=3A_He=E2=80=99s_Back?= In-Reply-To: <57f85a86.ec88420a.1ca0.d2a6@mx.google.com> References: <57f85a86.ec88420a.1ca0.d2a6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <056a9b67-6a0c-0c96-1720-c3969e44c99b@mira.net> A good read Larry, mostly good on Marx, but I don't accept his theory of "history of accident" - Lenin, for example, was not the only Marxist in Russia, and an interest in Marx recovered after the fall of the soviet union by clearing away the legacy of official Marxism - and he skims over Piketty's total failure to understand Marx - Piketty can simply use data to make the points Marx made with philosophy 150 years before these things came to pass, so Piketty doesn't need to understand Marx: he just has to know how to use a slide rule. Some of the ideas ascribed to Marx are not correct, but who cares, it's still a good read and worth thinking about. I liked his book on the American Pragmatists, too. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 8/10/2016 1:31 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > This is an article by Louis Menard that is a fascinating read. > > I hope the link comes through > > > He?s Back > http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/10/karl-marx-yesterday-and-today > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Oct 8 08:52:49 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 08:52:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?From_newyorker=2Ecom=3A_He=E2=80=99s_Back?= In-Reply-To: <056a9b67-6a0c-0c96-1720-c3969e44c99b@mira.net> References: <57f85a86.ec88420a.1ca0.d2a6@mx.google.com> <056a9b67-6a0c-0c96-1720-c3969e44c99b@mira.net> Message-ID: <57f91665.9c13620a.91e39.570b@mx.google.com> Andy, Yes, it was his book on the American Pragmatists that drew me into reading the article. The other interesting aspect is this id written for a large audience and so offers a possibility of re-introducing Marx to new generations Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Andy Blunden From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Oct 8 15:21:05 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 09:21:05 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? Message-ID: When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied linguistics or TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, sociogenetic, ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful article on Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would help us to distinguish better between ontogenetic development and microgenetic learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was around when Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a constant feature of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly associated with the Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and doesn't use it, and I think he's got good reasons. Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, Lewin, Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use the term microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi psychology and not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, denounces Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in Psychoneurology". I think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external perception with perceiving meaning. Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls his "micro" scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to biological, social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a particular point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high fidelity and much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees that her daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual meaning. But "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the specific weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis is what you get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are reading Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). David Kellogg Macquarie University From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Oct 8 17:20:31 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 17:20:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57f98d63.cd96620a.1752d.d0b3@mx.google.com> David, So when we enter Zaza?s article (exploring prototyping and design methodology) we are entering semantic meaning as a way to rethink perception. Semantic meaning is linked to perceptual meaning but these types of meanings are distinct. Is this distinction you propose explicit in how Zaza is rethinking perception or are you extending or making explicit what you perceive as two different forms of meaning. Your post is intriguing and calls me into wanting to understand more clearly this distinction between semantic meaning (logo genesis) and perceptual meaning. My reason for my saying that I paused when reading the first 2 paragraphs of the article as I felt myself being called into a new *space of reasons* that was unfamiliar and I was trying to get my bearings on rethinking perception. Your response turns us towards *meaning* and semantic ways of knowing and logo genesis. Leaves me a bit disoriented but fascinated to learn more. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: David Kellogg From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Oct 8 17:30:44 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 17:30:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: <57f98d63.cd96620a.1752d.d0b3@mx.google.com> References: <57f98d63.cd96620a.1752d.d0b3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: David and Larry -- Could you expand some more on the distinction between semantic meaning and perceptual meaning? I am having trouble seeing what you mean. :-) mike On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 5:20 PM, wrote: > David, > So when we enter Zaza?s article (exploring prototyping and design > methodology) we are entering semantic meaning as a way to rethink > perception. > Semantic meaning is linked to perceptual meaning but these types of > meanings are distinct. > Is this distinction you propose explicit in how Zaza is rethinking > perception or are you extending or making explicit what you perceive as two > different forms of meaning. > Your post is intriguing and calls me into wanting to understand more > clearly this distinction between semantic meaning (logo genesis) and > perceptual meaning. > > My reason for my saying that I paused when reading the first 2 paragraphs > of the article as I felt myself being called into a new *space of reasons* > that was unfamiliar and I was trying to get my bearings on rethinking > perception. > Your response turns us towards *meaning* and semantic ways of knowing and > logo genesis. > Leaves me a bit disoriented but fascinated to learn more. > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: David Kellogg -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Oct 8 19:55:40 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 13:55:40 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: <57f98d63.cd96620a.1752d.d0b3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Here's Vygotsky's example. An infant sees a pocket watch doesn't notice the time. An adult sees the time and doesn't notice the watch. A small child will have some trouble understanding how a pocket watch and the clock on the side of the town hall tower could possible be the same sort of thing; an adult has trouble understanding how they could ever be seen as significantly different. At some point (Vygotsky says it is early childhood, the development of speech) we start noticing "inner meaning"; that is, not ???????? ?????????? but ????????? ?????????? - ?????? ?????????? ??????????. After that point, the world is never quite the same place; we stop living in a world of objects and start living in a world of meanings instead. Vygotsky asks his students to think of the way a chessboard looks when you don't know how to play chess--you might group the pieces by color, or by shape, putting the black pieces on black squres and white pieces on white squares. But when you start to play, you suddenly realize that a black rook can enter a deadly relationship with a white queen, and if you are really good, the possibility of the possibility of that relationship is enough for you to act on. That's what the meaning-filled world looks like to a human who knows how to play the semantic game. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 11:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > David and Larry -- > > Could you expand some more on the distinction between semantic meaning and > perceptual meaning? > > I am having trouble seeing what you mean. :-) > mike > > On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 5:20 PM, wrote: > >> David, >> So when we enter Zaza?s article (exploring prototyping and design >> methodology) we are entering semantic meaning as a way to rethink >> perception. >> Semantic meaning is linked to perceptual meaning but these types of >> meanings are distinct. >> Is this distinction you propose explicit in how Zaza is rethinking >> perception or are you extending or making explicit what you perceive as two >> different forms of meaning. >> Your post is intriguing and calls me into wanting to understand more >> clearly this distinction between semantic meaning (logo genesis) and >> perceptual meaning. >> >> My reason for my saying that I paused when reading the first 2 >> paragraphs of the article as I felt myself being called into a new *space >> of reasons* that was unfamiliar and I was trying to get my bearings on >> rethinking perception. >> Your response turns us towards *meaning* and semantic ways of knowing and >> logo genesis. >> Leaves me a bit disoriented but fascinated to learn more. >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: David Kellogg > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Oct 8 20:20:08 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 21:20:08 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?From_newyorker=2Ecom=3A_He=E2=80=99s_Back?= In-Reply-To: <056a9b67-6a0c-0c96-1720-c3969e44c99b@mira.net> References: <57f85a86.ec88420a.1ca0.d2a6@mx.google.com> <056a9b67-6a0c-0c96-1720-c3969e44c99b@mira.net> Message-ID: <17EEC0A7-195D-4C47-A3BA-10630EC392C8@gmail.com> This article by Yuval Noah Harari is also from the New Yorker and I think relevant to the meaning and relevance of Marx today. Harari?s analysis, like Marx?s, is conditioned by technologies, but technologies vastly different in scale and pace from the 19th century when Marx wrote. I read Harari?s Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind some months ago and have been reading Menand?s collection on pragmatism. Any CHATback about Harari? Henry > On Oct 7, 2016, at 11:33 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > A good read Larry, mostly good on Marx, but I don't accept his theory of "history of accident" - Lenin, for example, was not the only Marxist in Russia, and an interest in Marx recovered after the fall of the soviet union by clearing away the legacy of official Marxism - and he skims over Piketty's total failure to understand Marx - Piketty can simply use data to make the points Marx made with philosophy 150 years before these things came to pass, so Piketty doesn't need to understand Marx: he just has to know how to use a slide rule. Some of the ideas ascribed to Marx are not correct, but who cares, it's still a good read and worth thinking about. > > I liked his book on the American Pragmatists, too. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 8/10/2016 1:31 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: >> This is an article by Louis Menard that is a fascinating read. >> >> I hope the link comes through >> >> >> He?s Back >> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/10/karl-marx-yesterday-and-today >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> >> > From rein.raud@tlu.ee Sat Oct 8 21:10:07 2016 From: rein.raud@tlu.ee (Rein Raud) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 07:10:07 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: <57f98d63.cd96620a.1752d.d0b3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9CC4CDBC-EAFE-4373-A12E-444F9F48588C@tlu.ee> This is a good example of how language and other learned resources interfere with perception. Another example of this is the case overstated by Benjamin Lee Whorf about the capacities of language to structure thought, which are nonetheless there. The famous experiment with English and Tarahumara speakers, conducted by Kay and Kempton in 1984, demonstrates this quite clearly. Tarahumara does not have a separate word for ?green", the same word denotes both ?green" and ?blue?. The participants were given a heap of marbles in three colours: dark green, light green and blue, and told to divide them into two heaps according to colour. English speakers grouped together dark green and light green (as ?green?), while Tarahumara speakers grouped dark green and blue together, as the wavelength of these colours is closer to each other and the physiological perception of them accordingly also. Thus the presence of the concept of ?green?, uniting a range of wavelengths into one, structured the perception of the marbles by English speakers, but not by Tarahumara speakers who did not have it. Best wishes, Rein Raud > On 09 Oct 2016, at 05:55, David Kellogg wrote: > > Here's Vygotsky's example. An infant sees a pocket watch doesn't notice the > time. An adult sees the time and doesn't notice the watch. A small child > will have some trouble understanding how a pocket watch and the clock on > the side of the town hall tower could possible be the same sort of thing; > an adult has trouble understanding how they could ever be seen > as significantly different. > > At some point (Vygotsky says it is early childhood, the development of > speech) we start noticing "inner meaning"; that is, not ???????? ?????????? > but ????????? ?????????? - ?????? ?????????? ??????????. After that point, > the world is never quite the same place; we stop living in a world of > objects and start living in a world of meanings instead. > > Vygotsky asks his students to think of the way a chessboard looks when you > don't know how to play chess--you might group the pieces by color, or by > shape, putting the black pieces on black squres and white pieces on white > squares. But when you start to play, you suddenly realize that a black > rook can enter a deadly relationship with a white queen, and if you are > really good, the possibility of the possibility of that relationship is > enough for you to act on. That's what the meaning-filled world looks like > to a human who knows how to play the semantic game. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 11:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> David and Larry -- >> >> Could you expand some more on the distinction between semantic meaning and >> perceptual meaning? >> >> I am having trouble seeing what you mean. :-) >> mike >> >> On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 5:20 PM, wrote: >> >>> David, >>> So when we enter Zaza?s article (exploring prototyping and design >>> methodology) we are entering semantic meaning as a way to rethink >>> perception. >>> Semantic meaning is linked to perceptual meaning but these types of >>> meanings are distinct. >>> Is this distinction you propose explicit in how Zaza is rethinking >>> perception or are you extending or making explicit what you perceive as two >>> different forms of meaning. >>> Your post is intriguing and calls me into wanting to understand more >>> clearly this distinction between semantic meaning (logo genesis) and >>> perceptual meaning. >>> >>> My reason for my saying that I paused when reading the first 2 >>> paragraphs of the article as I felt myself being called into a new *space >>> of reasons* that was unfamiliar and I was trying to get my bearings on >>> rethinking perception. >>> Your response turns us towards *meaning* and semantic ways of knowing and >>> logo genesis. >>> Leaves me a bit disoriented but fascinated to learn more. >>> >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>> >>> From: David Kellogg >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> From smago@uga.edu Sun Oct 9 05:15:24 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 12:15:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <1475666030881.84474@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Mike suggested that I add in some work I've done on defectology, which David mentions in his note below. I'll paste in some things I've written in this area, which has become quite important to me in trying to reframe discussions of what are generally referred to as disorders and disabilities. I've used LSV's 1993 volume on defectology to contest these notions in considerations of what is inevitably referred to as "mental disorders" or "mental disabilities." Some of this work is still in development, and some from a forthcoming book, so I'll stick to what's already been published. For another conversation I've taken part in, I've put together a set of readings, including my own, that are grounded in the "neurodiversity" movement, which challenges notions of "normalcy" in considering diagnostic classifications. Although my personal interest is in neurological diversity, I think that LSV provides a framework for considering the human potential that is available from any bodily configuration. His own interest, for instance, was in educating children injured, impaired, and maimed during the lengthy wars that ultimately produced the Soviet Union. His solution was always social rather than biological/material; the prosthetic industry was relatively primitive in his time. So, here you go. The pieces are categorized so that you can read the shorter, more accessible pieces or the longer, more scholarly ones. Or none at all. Further Reading THINGS I?VE WRITTEN Shorter essays for general readers Smagorinsky, P. (2016, May 22). University of Georgia professor explains his ?Asperger?s Advantage? and disabling assumption of disorder. Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Available at http://getschooled.blog.myajc.com/2016/05/27/university-of-georgia-professor-explains-his-aspergers-advantage-and-disabling-assumption-of-disorder/ Smagorinsky, P. (2016, July 8). Is mental health strictly mental? Psychology Today. Available at https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/conceptual-revolution/201607/is-mental-health-strictly-mental Smagorinsky, P. (2016, August 2016). Foregrounding potential, not disorder, in neurodiverse students. Literacy & NCTE. Available at http://blogs.ncte.org/index.php/2016/08/foregrounding-potential-not-disorder-neurodiverse-students/ Smagorinsky, P. (2016, October 5). A brief guide to neurodiversity. The Committed Project. Available at http://thecommittedproject.org/a-brief-guide-to-neurodiversity/ Longer essays for general readers Smagorinsky, P. (2014). Who's normal here? An atypical's perspective on mental health and educational inclusion. English Journal, 103(5), 15?23. Available at http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/EJ/EJ2014.pdf Smagorinsky, P. (2014, November 26). Taking the diss out of disability. Teachers College Record. Available at http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/TCR/TCR2014.html Longer essays and research, more for specialists Memoir Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Confessions of a mad professor: An autoethnographic consideration of neuroatypicality, extranormativity, and education. Teachers College Record, 113, 1701-1732. Available at http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/TCR/TCR2011.pdf Theory and Research Smagorinsky, P. (2012). Vygotsky, "defectology," and the inclusion of people of difference in the broader cultural stream. Journal of Language and Literacy Education [Online], 8(1), 1-25. Available at http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Vygotsky-and-Defectology.pdf Smagorinsky, P. (2012). "Every individual has his own insanity": Applying Vygotsky's work on defectology to the question of mental health as an issue of inclusion. Learning, Culture and Social Interaction, 1(1), 67-77. Available at http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/LCSI/LCSI_2012.pdf Cook, L. S., & Smagorinsky, P. (2014). Constructing positive social updrafts for extranormative personalities. Learning, Culture and Social Interaction, 3(4), 296?308. Available at http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/LCSI/LCSI_2014.pdf For readers with money to spare Smagorinsky, P. (Editor). (2016). Creativity and community among autism-spectrum youth: Creating positive social updrafts through play and performance. New York, NY: Palgrave Macmillan. BOOKS BY OTHER PEOPLE Memoir Cheney, T. (2009). Manic: A Memoir. New York, NY: William Morrow. Higashida, N. (2013). The reason I jump: The inner voice of a thirteen-year-old boy with autism. (K. A. Yoshida & D. Mitchell, Trans.). New York: Random House. Hornbacher, M. (2009). Madness: A bipolar life. New York, NY: Mariner Books Jamison, K. R. (1995). An unquiet mind: A memoir of moods and madness. New York, NY: Vintage. Kayesen, S. (1993). Girl, Interrupted. New York, NY: Random House. Page, T. (2009). Parallel play: Growing up with undiagnosed Asperger's. New York: Doubleday. Saks, E. R. (2007). The center cannot hold: My journey through madness. New York: Hyperion. Solomon, A. (2000). The noonday demon: An atlas of depression. New York, NY: Scribner. Stossel, S. (2014). My age of anxiety: Fear, hope, dread, and the search for peace of mind. New York: Knopf. Styron, W. (1990). Darkness visible: A memoir of madness. New York, NY: Random House. Tammet, D. (2007). Born on a blue day: Inside the extraordinary mind of an autistic savant. New York: The Free Press. Research, Theory. and Practice Arendell, T. D. (2015). The autistic stage: How cognitive disability changed 20th-century performance. Boston, MA: Sense. Baron-Cohen, S. (2008). Autism and Asperger Syndrome: The facts. Oxford University Press. Baron-Cohen, S. (2011). Zero degrees of empathy. New York: Penguin. Baron-Cohen, S., Tager-Flusberg, H., & Cohen, D.J. (Eds.) (2007). Understanding other minds: Perspectives from developmental cognitive neuroscience (2nd Ed.). New York: Oxford University Press. Cohen, D. J. (Eds.) (2007). Understanding other minds: Perspectives from developmental cognitive neuroscience (2nd Ed.). New York: Oxford University Press. Davis, L. (2008). Obsession: A history. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Deisinger, J. A., Burkhardt, S., Wahlberg,T. J., Rotatori, A. F., & Obiakor, F. E. (Editors) (2012). Autism spectrum disorders: Inclusive community for the 21st century. Charlotte, NC: Information Age Publishing. Hadwin, J., Howlin, P., & Baron-Cohen, S. (2008). Teaching children with autism to mindread: A handbook. Washington, DC: Wiley. James, I. (2005). Asperger's syndrome and high achievement: Some very remarkable people. Philadelphia: Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Jamison, K. R. (1999). Night falls fast: Understanding suicide (1st ed.). New York: Knopf. Kennedy, D. M., & Banks, R. S. (2011). Bright not broken: Gifted kids, ADHD, and autism. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass.Published review Kluth, P. (2010) "You're going to love this kid!" Teaching students with autism in the inclusive classroom. Baltimore, MD: Paul H. Brookes Publishing Company. Published review Leach, D. (2010). Bringing ABA into your inclusive classroom: A guide to improving outcomes for students with autism spectrum disorders. Baltimore, MD: Paul H. Brookes Publishing. Published review Mooney, J. (2007). The short bus: A journey beyond normal. New York: Henry Holt and Company. Ortiz, J. M. (2008). The myriad gifts of Asperger's syndrome. Philadelphia: Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Pearson, P. (2009). A brief history of anxiety...yours and mine. New York: Bloomsbury USA. Saks, E. R. (1999). Interpreting interpretation: The limits of hermeneutic psychoanalysis. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press. Saks, E. R. (2002). Refusing care: Forced treatment and the rights of the mentally ill. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Thomas, M. D., & Campbell, C. A. (2008). Special ed is down the hall: Disabled & proud. Bloomington, IN: iUniverse, Inc. Volkmar, F. R., & Wiesner, L. A. (2009) A practical guide to autism: What every parent, family member, and teacher needs to know. Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley & Sons, Inc. Published review Wilson, E. G. (2009). Against happiness: In praise of melancholy. New York: Sarah Crichton Books. ? Teaching Resources Information and Opinion Links How Colleges Flunk Mental Health by Katie J. M. Baker (Newsweek) Wikipedia's List of people who have suffered from depression Mental Illness PS Links for Exceptional Learners, Mental Health, and Students with Disabilities A photographer & writer struggling with mental illness Talking About mental illness: Teacher's resource Bipolar Disorder Perceptions of Mental Illness Can you call a 9-year-old a psychopath? Complete Units of Instruction (works best with Chrome) Mental Illness (2004) by Emily Lancaster & Christopher Warren Speaking Up: Alienation and Social Responsibility (2009) by Katie Crowell Understanding Holden: A unit for 11th grade students (2009) by Michael Nickolai Who's Cuckoo? A look into the stigma of mental illness in society (FSU) by Lauren Niemeyer ?Life Inside The Music Box?: Understanding Various Mental Abnormalities (FSU 2011) by Charise Kollar Online Lesson Plans Yale-New Haven Teachers Institute: By Reason of Insanity An Exploration of the Mental Disease/Defect Defense Writing by Teenagers Merlyn's Pen search engine for writing by teens about child abuse Merlyn's Pen search engine for writing by teens about depression Merlyn's Pen search engine for writing by teens about eating disorders Teen Ink writing by teens about health issues, including mental health Art and Literature: Articles and Book Lists Wikipedia's List of Mental Illness in Art and Literature Mental Health 3: Mental Health Through Literature Linking about: the Victorians and Mental Illness Erika?s List: YA Novels That Include Mental Illness Can teen fiction explain mental illness to my daughter? Using Young Adult Fiction Literature to End Discrimination Against Mental Illness: An Annotated Bibliography of Young Adult Literature about Anorexia, Drug and Alcohol Abuse, Suicide and Other Mental Illness Robert Rozema: The Problem of Autism in Young Adult Fiction Novels Faulkner, William: As I Lay Dying Faulkner, William: The Sound and the Fury Haddon, Mark: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time Heller, Joseph: Catch-22 Kesey, Ken: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest Lee, Harper: To Kill a Mockingbird Salinger, J. D.: The Catcher in the Rye Vizzini, Ned: Kind of a Funny Story Plays Miller, Arthur: Death of a Salesman Short Stories Gilman, Charlotte Perkins: The Yellow Wallpaper Biography Nasar, Sylvia: A Beautiful Mind Memoir Cheney, T. Manic: A Memoir Cutler, Eustacia: A Thorn in my Pocket: Temple Grandin's Mother tells the Family Story Hornbacher, M. Madness: A bipolar life. Jamison, K. R. An unquiet mind: A memoir of moods and madness Kaysen, Susanna: Girl, Interrupted Mills, Bruce: The Archaeology of Yearning Plath, Sylvia: The Bell Jar Page, Tim: Parallel Play: Growing Up With Undiagnosed Asperger's Robison, John Elder: Look Me in the Eye, Raising Cubby, Be Different Solomon, Andres: The noonday demon: An atlas of depression Styron, W. Darkness visible: A memoir of madness Wurtzel, Elizabeth: Prozac Nation Essays Fry, Stephen: Only the Lonely Film The King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters Take Shelter Rain Man Adam Mary and Max Harvey Lars and the Real Girl Dirty Filthy Love The Informant! Silver Linings Playbook Temple Grandin Autodocumentary Film Fry, Stephen: The Secret Life of the Manic Depressive Television programs 24 (Chloe O'Brian, autism spectrum; Brady Hauser, autism spectrum) All My Children (Lily Montgomery, autism spectrum) Bones (Dr. Temperance "Bones" Brennan & Zack Addy, Asperger's syndrome) Boston Legal (Jerry Espenson, Asperger's syndrome) Criminal Minds (Dr. Spencer Reid, Asperger's syndrome) CSI: Crime Scene Investigation (Gil Grissom, possibly autism spectrum) Eureka (Kevin Stark, Autism) Heroes (Matt Parkman, dyslexia and learning differences) House (Dr. Gregory House, possibly autism spectrum) Law and Order: Criminal Intent (Bobby Goren, possibly Asperger's syndrome) Monk (Adrian Monk, obsessive-compulsive tendencies; Monk's brother, Asperger's syndrome) Numb3rs (Charlie Eppes, Asperger's syndrome) ReGenesis (Dr. Bob Melnikov, Asperger's syndrome) The Shield (Mackey Children, Autism) Wire in the Blood (Tony Hill, Aserger's Syndrome) Songs Barenaked Ladies: Brian Wilson Barenaked Ladies: War on Drugs Graphic Novels/Manga: Tobe, Keiko: With the Light Video Games American McGee's Alice Podcasts & Talks Undiagnosed Asperger?s Leads To Life As An Outsider Asperger Love Ted Talk: The Forgotten History of Autism Images Mental Illness Mental Health -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, October 07, 2016 12:24 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion Mike, Zazza: What high resolution technologies seems to refer to is the ability to produce exact copies, e.g. a breast prosthesis with simulated skin, simulated nipple, and other "nice things", the sort of thing that Angelina Jolie had with her double mastectomy rather than the low-fidelity prosthetic devices in Zazza's article, which allowed Zimbabwean men to enjoy breast-feeding for the first time in their cultural history. I think Mike is right and "high resolution technology" is too narrow for the phenomenon, but maybe "technologies that require high levels of socially coordinated action sustained over long periods of time to create" is a little too wide: temple-building, language, and literature all qualify, but they do not necessarily involve disinheritance. I think Zazza is really just looking at a diachronic dimension of good old fashioned alienation, like making Louis Vuitton handbags in Hunan province, where nobody has a real sense of commodity as a serious social signifier). High fidelity prosthetics need capital intensive technology, but capital intensive technology can also be very low fidelity (a welding robot, as opposed to a flesh-and-blood welder). Contrariwise, labor intensive technology can be surprisingly high fidelity: handwriting, for example, or pronunciation. Halliday says that the differentiation of the content plane of thinking between "meaning" and "wording" is what essentially created the human brain. But the differentiation of the expression plane, between phonetics and phonology, is what created writing, and writing made it possible to turn culture into history. "Ontogeny recreates history" is a gross oversimplification, of course: what ontogeny really does to history is to slow it down and continue it by new and more volitional means, just as history was able to slow down evolution and continue it without killing off everything that doesn't quite fit. True, life gets shorter and shorter the more you get into it, but with writing it hardly matters: other people will continue my thoughts far better than I can, precisely because I have to think them in a time and place where we starve the thoughts that don't quite fit. I am always curious at the sharp intake of breath that you get from people when they hear the term "defectology". The very same people will not bat an eye when you say "disabled". Functionalism? Or just another spin the euphemistic treadmill? David Kellogg Macquarie University On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > Hi All- > > This conversation has sparked some really interesting ideas already. I > wanted to highlight two of your comments, David, that struck me as > worth digging more deeply in to before they fly away into the past. > > > > The first was from yesterday's initial note and the second from > today's responding to Zaza's note. > > > > Each got me thinking. Regarding the first pausing points for me was > where you wrote toward the end of your note > > > > *I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically > disinheriting* > *..* > > > > So here is provoked thought #1. Might it be useful to answer your > question in the affirmative, and generalize it beyond high resolution > technology to "technologies that require high levels of socially > coordinated action sustained over long periods of time to create." > Maybe something as general as "very valuable technologies" might be intrinsicially dis-inheriting. > The social processes involved in creating those technologies are rife > with existing inequalities of rank/status/role........ and, except in > exceptional circumstances (?) those inequalities are increased with > the introduction of new higher resolution/more valuable, > > > > Anyway, i believe the answer to your question is yes, even if I think > so for confused reasons (!) > > > > Second > > Making the analogy between LSV's (and ARL's) insistence on the > importance of the study of decline and such regressions in Zimbabwe > and elsewhere was really thought provoking for me. > > > > And linking this to his defektology is also helpful. > > > > > > *that is, seeing the decay of higher functions as an example of their > development in reverse motion (a stripping away of layers to reveal > how they were laid on in the first place). * > > > > In my view, the revival of interest in Vygotsky's defektology as a > methodological commitment as well as a moral commitment seems like one > of the potential growing points of contemporary CHAT studies. > > > > To make the parallel with historical change provides the other side to > Luria's optimistic view of 1931.The first entry that comes up under > Fergana Valley, a site of his work in Central Asia on google is the following: > > > > http://enews.fergananews.com/index.php?did=2&bracket_flag=1 > > > > Plenty of kukiya-kiya going on in that area of the world these days, I > suspect. > > > > Are we back to the view, which Dewey implemented as part of his > curriculum, that ontogeny recapitulates history? For better and for worse? > > > > Thanks all for all the thought generation. > > > > mike > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 1:57 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Zaza: > > > > When you say that all agricultural production ceased in Zimbabwe > > during > the > > land reform, I take it that you mean that agricultural commodity > production > > ceased. But one of the things that usually happens during big upsets > > like this is a reversion to subsistence agriculture: people grow > > stuff and eat it instead of selling it. This happened in China in > > the late fifties and > is > > still happening in North Korea. Isn't it possible that is really > > what happened? > > > > It's also not clear to me how complete the collapse of the > > infrastructure really is. One of the things that struck me in > > reading your article was that the workshop takes place in a well > > equipped conference room, where there are apparently video > > facilities and working electricity. There's > also > > no mention of something that is often even more basic than > > electricity, namely running water; presumably if the mother is going > > to be producing formula, she has to have access to clean water. > > > > Vygotsky talks a lot (at the end of almost every chapter in "The > > History > of > > the Development of the Higher Psychological Functions) about a kind > > of pathogenetic analysis: that is, seeing the decay of higher > > functions as > an > > example of their development in reverse motion (a stripping away of > layers > > to reveal how they were laid on in the first place). We often forget > > that over two thirds of his written work--and almost all of his > > published work--was either pedology or "defectology" rather than > > psychology or cultural historical theory. > > > > It's possible to think of what is happening in Zimbabwe (and similar > > instances of kukiya-kiya in Cuba and even China after the Soviets > > were > > expelled) as an instance of cultural-historical pathogenesis: the > > "nice things" of colonialism and mercantilism get stripped away and > > the layer > of > > subsistence agriculture on which it all developed hundreds of years > > ago > is > > revealed again. Use values predominate over exchange values, just as > when a > > stroke victim loses control of the "znachenie" of words but retains > > their "smysl". > > > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 1:15 AM, Zaza Kabayadondo < > > zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > > > Thank you David and Alfredo for being among the first intrepid > > > readers > > and > > > for your positive comments on the article. > > > > > > I also want to thank Mike, Bonnie, Jen, Victor, and Natalia for > > > their organization, support, and persistence in promoting this > > > article for discussion. > > > > > > I want to introduce myself to you all and to address any questions > > > and discussion points that come up in this thread. > > > > > > I am from Zimbabwe and have lived in Norway, Australia, and the > > > United States (Massachusetts and California). I left Zimbabwe in > > > 2003, years > > after > > > the contentious land reform program of 1999-2001. After all > agricultural > > > production ceased in those years, the country slid into a state of > > economic > > > free fall that persists and worsens today. The displacement of > > livelihoods, > > > and of a Zimbabwean diaspora, has forced new activities to emerge: > > > kukiya-kiya, the everyday hustle that allows citizens to make-do, > > > to > > source > > > food, money, and deals that can get them by for one more day. > > > > > > This research is inspired by the ongoing crisis in Zimbabwe. > > > Because of economic collapse, Zimbabweans describe themselves as > > > being on the > > margins, > > > or fringes, politically, geographically, historically. More simply put: > > > these are not normal times for the country, and the crisis > > > isolates its citizens from the rest of the world. One scholar of > > > the crisis, Jeremy Jones, has referred to this difficult period > > > for Zimbabweans as a "suspension of the spatio-temporal horizon." > > > (referenced in the article > > as > > > Jones, 2010) Because the crisis translates to the collapse and > disrepair > > of > > > everyday tools and infrastructure, I find it more helpful to look > > > at > the > > > crisis as an environment of heightened sensory attention to the > material > > > that make the relationships between mind, culture, and activity > > > more pronounced. The objects surrounding us, in their state of > > > displacement > or > > > disgrace, don't only communicate affordances in regards to > > > possible physical action, they also inspire a very productive > > > questioning (and sometimes despair) and reimagining of who we are as social beings. > > > > > > David is very right in drawing attention to the concept of > disinheritance > > > as a marriage of Marx's alienation and Vygotsky's cultural heritage. > With > > > the concept of disinheritance, I am trying to embrace both, so > > > that we > > can > > > think about the mind with an eye for processes that alienate or > > > disenfranchise learners. What is going on in the mind when one is > > alienated > > > from present activity? In what ways can the activity of making do > > > (resourcefulness or the hustle to survive in abnormal times) > > > enrich the models we have for mind and culture? > > > > > > To Alfredo's last comment about the many connections and pursuit > > > of > open > > > threads - what a pleasant and happy outcome! I have every hope > > > that, > > while > > > this is indeed a case study from a very unusual time and place, > > > the > > concept > > > of disinheritance can be useful for examining everyday activity in > normal > > > times too. Recently, a colleague who studies the history of > > > segregation > > in > > > the United States, mentioned she could see disinheritance at play > > > in "Whites-only" spaces and objects. I am curious to hear what > > > other > threads > > > and connections XMCA readers find. > > > > > > Looking forward to more discussion, > > > > > > Zaza > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I could not agree more with David's remarks concerning the > > > > beautiful writing and the sensory explosions that this article is replete with. > > > > Indeed, as I was reading it, I was thinking that the reading had > > > > a synesthetic aspect to it, as if moving through so very diverse > concepts > > > and > > > > metaphors was like seeing lots of vivid colours one after > > > > another, > some > > > > more enlightening, others almost blinding, but all forming an > > incredibly > > > > dense wave of topics on the intermeshing of culture and cognition. > > > > > > > > Among the many (not always followed-up) instances, I found the > analysis > > > on > > > > the section "gendered intimacy" particularly appealing in that > > > > the > > > analysis > > > > shows how the designers come to understand a prosthetic > > > > prototype in > > and > > > > through reference to actual breasts and breastfeeding in a > > > > culture, > and > > > by > > > > the same token, come to understand actual breasts and > > > > breastfeeding > as > > > > manifestations of a gendered culture in and through an inquiry > > > > into a prosthetic prototype. The same goes for the contrasts > > > > between younger > > and > > > > older generations, urban and rural... > > > > > > > > The connections are so many that invite to reading like those > > > > books > > that > > > > offer different possibilities to continue the story, and where > > > > you > can > > > > choose jumping from one page to a non-contiguous page depending > > > > on > the > > > > thread you follow. I personally will go back to the text and > > > > will > > follow > > > > some of the opened threads that, precisely because of their low > > fidelity, > > > > allow moving quite flexibly. But I also hope not to get lost, or > > > > just disconnected, and so I guess some degree of fidelity will > > > > also be > > needed. > > > > Thanks for a great read. > > > > Alfredo > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > > > Sent: 05 October 2016 04:44 > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > > > > > > > > The first thing I notice about the paper is how "resplendent" it > > > > is > in > > > > beautiful writing, e.g, > > > > > > > > "Given this symmetry between prototyping and kukiya-kiya, a > prototyping > > > bin > > > > resplendent with objects of disinheritance would be a powerful > > > > way to > > see > > > > the confluence of mind, culture, and activity." > > > > > > > > The very next sentence tells us that the prototyping bin is > > > > really an > > old > > > > plastic tub "populated with a sensory explosion of" matter out > > > > of > > place. > > > > Dear XMCA reader, if you haven't read it yet, you are in for a treat. > > > > > > > > The second thing I notice, though, is the sensory explosion of > > > > new concepts, many of which are unexplained, but make perfect > > > > sense if > you > > > sit > > > > and think about them. Let me just take the new concepts that > > > > appear > in > > my > > > > example sentences, and see if I can gloss them; the author can > > > > let me > > > know > > > > if I have him right. > > > > > > > > Prototyping means developing objects from "low-fidelity" (that > > > > is, > poor > > > > copies) to "high resolution technology" (i.e. not copies at all, > > > > but > > new > > > > objects). So prototyping involves the emergence of NEW > > > > technologies > > from > > > > the inability to copy the old. For example, in China when the > > > > old > > Soviet > > > > tractors designed for giant Kolkhoz farms all broke down, they > > introduced > > > > walking tractors (which you can still see everywhere, and which > > > > have > > now > > > > spread to Korea). > > > > > > > > Kukiya-kiya means the exaptation of high resolution technology > > > > for relatively low-fidelity purposes that are more suitable to > > > > an economy > > now > > > > thrown back on a pre-imperialist and even pre-mercantilist > subsistence > > > > economy. For example, in the Korean countryside, when peasants > > > > run > out > > of > > > > washing powder for their washing machines, they use them to > > > > store rice. It's in that sense that kukiya-kiya is the opposite > > > > of > > > prototyping; a > > > > symmetrical process. > > > > > > > > Disinheritance means not simply alienation, in the Marxist sense > > > > of > > being > > > > confronted by but unable to reappropriate the objects of your > > > > own > > labor, > > > > but being written out of the cultural endowment altogether, > > > > because > the > > > > artifacts you have "inherited" confront you as white elephants, > > requiring > > > > more maintenance than they can possibly justify. > > > > > > > > I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically > > disinheriting. > > > > For example, kids can still play board games that are thousands > > > > of > > years > > > > old, but they can't use videogames that were made only decades ago. > In > > > > contrast, the finest extant technology for making sense of human > > > > experience, namely language, is decidedly soft on hardware. > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Macquarie University. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Xmca-ers -- > > > > > > > > > > Back in June I made a hurried attempt to make available for > > discussion > > > > the > > > > > paper on the design process of Zimbabwean medical > > > > > professionals > > seeking > > > > to > > > > > create an unusual kind of prosthetic devices. Summer and some > > > > communication > > > > > came rushing up to overwhelm the effort. > > > > > > > > > > Zaza has been back in touch and is ready to discuss the paper. > > > > > I am > > > > cutting > > > > > and pasting the title and abstract below. And I am attaching > > > > > the > > paper > > > > > which was open for free access for a while, but if it is now, > > > > > I > > cannot > > > > find > > > > > where on the publisher's re-designed web page. > > > > > > > > > > Summer having passed other impediments will surely arise, but > > > > > in > the > > > > > meantime, here is a very unusual paper about design for us to > > > > > think > > > > about. > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From smago@uga.edu Sun Oct 9 05:23:27 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 12:23:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <1475666030881.84474@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: I see that the links didn't appear. I'll paste in a link that will provide the same material from a webpage (I borrowed them from my own teaching resource page). First, if these things interest you, http://neurocosmopolitanism.com/ is a good source for neurodiversity. Second: I don't include LSV's defectology volume in the list because it's for undergrads, mostly sophomores, and is both costly and a difficult read at that point in development, I think. Third: Here's the link: http://smago.coe.uga.edu/VirtualLibrary/Unit_Outlines.htm#MentalHealth -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2016 8:15 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion Mike suggested that I add in some work I've done on defectology, which David mentions in his note below. I'll paste in some things I've written in this area, which has become quite important to me in trying to reframe discussions of what are generally referred to as disorders and disabilities. I've used LSV's 1993 volume on defectology to contest these notions in considerations of what is inevitably referred to as "mental disorders" or "mental disabilities." Some of this work is still in development, and some from a forthcoming book, so I'll stick to what's already been published. For another conversation I've taken part in, I've put together a set of readings, including my own, that are grounded in the "neurodiversity" movement, which challenges notions of "normalcy" in considering diagnostic classifications. Although my personal interest is in neurological diversity, I think that LSV provides a framework for considering the human potential that is available from any bodily configuration. His own interest, for instance, was in educating children injured, impaired, and maimed during the lengthy wars that ultimately produced the Soviet Union. His solution was always social rather than biological/material; the prosthetic industry was relatively primitive in his time. So, here you go. The pieces are categorized so that you can read the shorter, more accessible pieces or the longer, more scholarly ones. Or none at all. Further Reading THINGS I?VE WRITTEN Shorter essays for general readers Smagorinsky, P. (2016, May 22). University of Georgia professor explains his ?Asperger?s Advantage? and disabling assumption of disorder. Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Available at http://getschooled.blog.myajc.com/2016/05/27/university-of-georgia-professor-explains-his-aspergers-advantage-and-disabling-assumption-of-disorder/ Smagorinsky, P. (2016, July 8). Is mental health strictly mental? Psychology Today. Available at https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/conceptual-revolution/201607/is-mental-health-strictly-mental Smagorinsky, P. (2016, August 2016). Foregrounding potential, not disorder, in neurodiverse students. Literacy & NCTE. Available at http://blogs.ncte.org/index.php/2016/08/foregrounding-potential-not-disorder-neurodiverse-students/ Smagorinsky, P. (2016, October 5). A brief guide to neurodiversity. The Committed Project. Available at http://thecommittedproject.org/a-brief-guide-to-neurodiversity/ Longer essays for general readers Smagorinsky, P. (2014). Who's normal here? An atypical's perspective on mental health and educational inclusion. English Journal, 103(5), 15?23. Available at http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/EJ/EJ2014.pdf Smagorinsky, P. (2014, November 26). Taking the diss out of disability. Teachers College Record. Available at http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/TCR/TCR2014.html Longer essays and research, more for specialists Memoir Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Confessions of a mad professor: An autoethnographic consideration of neuroatypicality, extranormativity, and education. Teachers College Record, 113, 1701-1732. Available at http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/TCR/TCR2011.pdf Theory and Research Smagorinsky, P. (2012). Vygotsky, "defectology," and the inclusion of people of difference in the broader cultural stream. Journal of Language and Literacy Education [Online], 8(1), 1-25. Available at http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Vygotsky-and-Defectology.pdf Smagorinsky, P. (2012). "Every individual has his own insanity": Applying Vygotsky's work on defectology to the question of mental health as an issue of inclusion. Learning, Culture and Social Interaction, 1(1), 67-77. Available at http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/LCSI/LCSI_2012.pdf Cook, L. S., & Smagorinsky, P. (2014). Constructing positive social updrafts for extranormative personalities. Learning, Culture and Social Interaction, 3(4), 296?308. Available at http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/LCSI/LCSI_2014.pdf For readers with money to spare Smagorinsky, P. (Editor). (2016). Creativity and community among autism-spectrum youth: Creating positive social updrafts through play and performance. New York, NY: Palgrave Macmillan. BOOKS BY OTHER PEOPLE Memoir Cheney, T. (2009). Manic: A Memoir. New York, NY: William Morrow. Higashida, N. (2013). The reason I jump: The inner voice of a thirteen-year-old boy with autism. (K. A. Yoshida & D. Mitchell, Trans.). New York: Random House. Hornbacher, M. (2009). Madness: A bipolar life. New York, NY: Mariner Books Jamison, K. R. (1995). An unquiet mind: A memoir of moods and madness. New York, NY: Vintage. Kayesen, S. (1993). Girl, Interrupted. New York, NY: Random House. Page, T. (2009). Parallel play: Growing up with undiagnosed Asperger's. New York: Doubleday. Saks, E. R. (2007). The center cannot hold: My journey through madness. New York: Hyperion. Solomon, A. (2000). The noonday demon: An atlas of depression. New York, NY: Scribner. Stossel, S. (2014). My age of anxiety: Fear, hope, dread, and the search for peace of mind. New York: Knopf. Styron, W. (1990). Darkness visible: A memoir of madness. New York, NY: Random House. Tammet, D. (2007). Born on a blue day: Inside the extraordinary mind of an autistic savant. New York: The Free Press. Research, Theory. and Practice Arendell, T. D. (2015). The autistic stage: How cognitive disability changed 20th-century performance. Boston, MA: Sense. Baron-Cohen, S. (2008). Autism and Asperger Syndrome: The facts. Oxford University Press. Baron-Cohen, S. (2011). Zero degrees of empathy. New York: Penguin. Baron-Cohen, S., Tager-Flusberg, H., & Cohen, D.J. (Eds.) (2007). Understanding other minds: Perspectives from developmental cognitive neuroscience (2nd Ed.). New York: Oxford University Press. Cohen, D. J. (Eds.) (2007). Understanding other minds: Perspectives from developmental cognitive neuroscience (2nd Ed.). New York: Oxford University Press. Davis, L. (2008). Obsession: A history. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Deisinger, J. A., Burkhardt, S., Wahlberg,T. J., Rotatori, A. F., & Obiakor, F. E. (Editors) (2012). Autism spectrum disorders: Inclusive community for the 21st century. Charlotte, NC: Information Age Publishing. Hadwin, J., Howlin, P., & Baron-Cohen, S. (2008). Teaching children with autism to mindread: A handbook. Washington, DC: Wiley. James, I. (2005). Asperger's syndrome and high achievement: Some very remarkable people. Philadelphia: Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Jamison, K. R. (1999). Night falls fast: Understanding suicide (1st ed.). New York: Knopf. Kennedy, D. M., & Banks, R. S. (2011). Bright not broken: Gifted kids, ADHD, and autism. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass.Published review Kluth, P. (2010) "You're going to love this kid!" Teaching students with autism in the inclusive classroom. Baltimore, MD: Paul H. Brookes Publishing Company. Published review Leach, D. (2010). Bringing ABA into your inclusive classroom: A guide to improving outcomes for students with autism spectrum disorders. Baltimore, MD: Paul H. Brookes Publishing. Published review Mooney, J. (2007). The short bus: A journey beyond normal. New York: Henry Holt and Company. Ortiz, J. M. (2008). The myriad gifts of Asperger's syndrome. Philadelphia: Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Pearson, P. (2009). A brief history of anxiety...yours and mine. New York: Bloomsbury USA. Saks, E. R. (1999). Interpreting interpretation: The limits of hermeneutic psychoanalysis. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press. Saks, E. R. (2002). Refusing care: Forced treatment and the rights of the mentally ill. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Thomas, M. D., & Campbell, C. A. (2008). Special ed is down the hall: Disabled & proud. Bloomington, IN: iUniverse, Inc. Volkmar, F. R., & Wiesner, L. A. (2009) A practical guide to autism: What every parent, family member, and teacher needs to know. Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley & Sons, Inc. Published review Wilson, E. G. (2009). Against happiness: In praise of melancholy. New York: Sarah Crichton Books. ? Teaching Resources Information and Opinion Links How Colleges Flunk Mental Health by Katie J. M. Baker (Newsweek) Wikipedia's List of people who have suffered from depression Mental Illness PS Links for Exceptional Learners, Mental Health, and Students with Disabilities A photographer & writer struggling with mental illness Talking About mental illness: Teacher's resource Bipolar Disorder Perceptions of Mental Illness Can you call a 9-year-old a psychopath? Complete Units of Instruction (works best with Chrome) Mental Illness (2004) by Emily Lancaster & Christopher Warren Speaking Up: Alienation and Social Responsibility (2009) by Katie Crowell Understanding Holden: A unit for 11th grade students (2009) by Michael Nickolai Who's Cuckoo? A look into the stigma of mental illness in society (FSU) by Lauren Niemeyer ?Life Inside The Music Box?: Understanding Various Mental Abnormalities (FSU 2011) by Charise Kollar Online Lesson Plans Yale-New Haven Teachers Institute: By Reason of Insanity An Exploration of the Mental Disease/Defect Defense Writing by Teenagers Merlyn's Pen search engine for writing by teens about child abuse Merlyn's Pen search engine for writing by teens about depression Merlyn's Pen search engine for writing by teens about eating disorders Teen Ink writing by teens about health issues, including mental health Art and Literature: Articles and Book Lists Wikipedia's List of Mental Illness in Art and Literature Mental Health 3: Mental Health Through Literature Linking about: the Victorians and Mental Illness Erika?s List: YA Novels That Include Mental Illness Can teen fiction explain mental illness to my daughter? Using Young Adult Fiction Literature to End Discrimination Against Mental Illness: An Annotated Bibliography of Young Adult Literature about Anorexia, Drug and Alcohol Abuse, Suicide and Other Mental Illness Robert Rozema: The Problem of Autism in Young Adult Fiction Novels Faulkner, William: As I Lay Dying Faulkner, William: The Sound and the Fury Haddon, Mark: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time Heller, Joseph: Catch-22 Kesey, Ken: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest Lee, Harper: To Kill a Mockingbird Salinger, J. D.: The Catcher in the Rye Vizzini, Ned: Kind of a Funny Story Plays Miller, Arthur: Death of a Salesman Short Stories Gilman, Charlotte Perkins: The Yellow Wallpaper Biography Nasar, Sylvia: A Beautiful Mind Memoir Cheney, T. Manic: A Memoir Cutler, Eustacia: A Thorn in my Pocket: Temple Grandin's Mother tells the Family Story Hornbacher, M. Madness: A bipolar life. Jamison, K. R. An unquiet mind: A memoir of moods and madness Kaysen, Susanna: Girl, Interrupted Mills, Bruce: The Archaeology of Yearning Plath, Sylvia: The Bell Jar Page, Tim: Parallel Play: Growing Up With Undiagnosed Asperger's Robison, John Elder: Look Me in the Eye, Raising Cubby, Be Different Solomon, Andres: The noonday demon: An atlas of depression Styron, W. Darkness visible: A memoir of madness Wurtzel, Elizabeth: Prozac Nation Essays Fry, Stephen: Only the Lonely Film The King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters Take Shelter Rain Man Adam Mary and Max Harvey Lars and the Real Girl Dirty Filthy Love The Informant! Silver Linings Playbook Temple Grandin Autodocumentary Film Fry, Stephen: The Secret Life of the Manic Depressive Television programs 24 (Chloe O'Brian, autism spectrum; Brady Hauser, autism spectrum) All My Children (Lily Montgomery, autism spectrum) Bones (Dr. Temperance "Bones" Brennan & Zack Addy, Asperger's syndrome) Boston Legal (Jerry Espenson, Asperger's syndrome) Criminal Minds (Dr. Spencer Reid, Asperger's syndrome) CSI: Crime Scene Investigation (Gil Grissom, possibly autism spectrum) Eureka (Kevin Stark, Autism) Heroes (Matt Parkman, dyslexia and learning differences) House (Dr. Gregory House, possibly autism spectrum) Law and Order: Criminal Intent (Bobby Goren, possibly Asperger's syndrome) Monk (Adrian Monk, obsessive-compulsive tendencies; Monk's brother, Asperger's syndrome) Numb3rs (Charlie Eppes, Asperger's syndrome) ReGenesis (Dr. Bob Melnikov, Asperger's syndrome) The Shield (Mackey Children, Autism) Wire in the Blood (Tony Hill, Aserger's Syndrome) Songs Barenaked Ladies: Brian Wilson Barenaked Ladies: War on Drugs Graphic Novels/Manga: Tobe, Keiko: With the Light Video Games American McGee's Alice Podcasts & Talks Undiagnosed Asperger?s Leads To Life As An Outsider Asperger Love Ted Talk: The Forgotten History of Autism Images Mental Illness Mental Health -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Friday, October 07, 2016 12:24 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion Mike, Zazza: What high resolution technologies seems to refer to is the ability to produce exact copies, e.g. a breast prosthesis with simulated skin, simulated nipple, and other "nice things", the sort of thing that Angelina Jolie had with her double mastectomy rather than the low-fidelity prosthetic devices in Zazza's article, which allowed Zimbabwean men to enjoy breast-feeding for the first time in their cultural history. I think Mike is right and "high resolution technology" is too narrow for the phenomenon, but maybe "technologies that require high levels of socially coordinated action sustained over long periods of time to create" is a little too wide: temple-building, language, and literature all qualify, but they do not necessarily involve disinheritance. I think Zazza is really just looking at a diachronic dimension of good old fashioned alienation, like making Louis Vuitton handbags in Hunan province, where nobody has a real sense of commodity as a serious social signifier). High fidelity prosthetics need capital intensive technology, but capital intensive technology can also be very low fidelity (a welding robot, as opposed to a flesh-and-blood welder). Contrariwise, labor intensive technology can be surprisingly high fidelity: handwriting, for example, or pronunciation. Halliday says that the differentiation of the content plane of thinking between "meaning" and "wording" is what essentially created the human brain. But the differentiation of the expression plane, between phonetics and phonology, is what created writing, and writing made it possible to turn culture into history. "Ontogeny recreates history" is a gross oversimplification, of course: what ontogeny really does to history is to slow it down and continue it by new and more volitional means, just as history was able to slow down evolution and continue it without killing off everything that doesn't quite fit. True, life gets shorter and shorter the more you get into it, but with writing it hardly matters: other people will continue my thoughts far better than I can, precisely because I have to think them in a time and place where we starve the thoughts that don't quite fit. I am always curious at the sharp intake of breath that you get from people when they hear the term "defectology". The very same people will not bat an eye when you say "disabled". Functionalism? Or just another spin the euphemistic treadmill? David Kellogg Macquarie University On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 11:13 AM, mike cole wrote: > Hi All- > > This conversation has sparked some really interesting ideas already. I > wanted to highlight two of your comments, David, that struck me as > worth digging more deeply in to before they fly away into the past. > > > > The first was from yesterday's initial note and the second from > today's responding to Zaza's note. > > > > Each got me thinking. Regarding the first pausing points for me was > where you wrote toward the end of your note > > > > *I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically > disinheriting* > *..* > > > > So here is provoked thought #1. Might it be useful to answer your > question in the affirmative, and generalize it beyond high resolution > technology to "technologies that require high levels of socially > coordinated action sustained over long periods of time to create." > Maybe something as general as "very valuable technologies" might be intrinsicially dis-inheriting. > The social processes involved in creating those technologies are rife > with existing inequalities of rank/status/role........ and, except in > exceptional circumstances (?) those inequalities are increased with > the introduction of new higher resolution/more valuable, > > > > Anyway, i believe the answer to your question is yes, even if I think > so for confused reasons (!) > > > > Second > > Making the analogy between LSV's (and ARL's) insistence on the > importance of the study of decline and such regressions in Zimbabwe > and elsewhere was really thought provoking for me. > > > > And linking this to his defektology is also helpful. > > > > > > *that is, seeing the decay of higher functions as an example of their > development in reverse motion (a stripping away of layers to reveal > how they were laid on in the first place). * > > > > In my view, the revival of interest in Vygotsky's defektology as a > methodological commitment as well as a moral commitment seems like one > of the potential growing points of contemporary CHAT studies. > > > > To make the parallel with historical change provides the other side to > Luria's optimistic view of 1931.The first entry that comes up under > Fergana Valley, a site of his work in Central Asia on google is the following: > > > > http://enews.fergananews.com/index.php?did=2&bracket_flag=1 > > > > Plenty of kukiya-kiya going on in that area of the world these days, I > suspect. > > > > Are we back to the view, which Dewey implemented as part of his > curriculum, that ontogeny recapitulates history? For better and for worse? > > > > Thanks all for all the thought generation. > > > > mike > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 1:57 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Zaza: > > > > When you say that all agricultural production ceased in Zimbabwe > > during > the > > land reform, I take it that you mean that agricultural commodity > production > > ceased. But one of the things that usually happens during big upsets > > like this is a reversion to subsistence agriculture: people grow > > stuff and eat it instead of selling it. This happened in China in > > the late fifties and > is > > still happening in North Korea. Isn't it possible that is really > > what happened? > > > > It's also not clear to me how complete the collapse of the > > infrastructure really is. One of the things that struck me in > > reading your article was that the workshop takes place in a well > > equipped conference room, where there are apparently video > > facilities and working electricity. There's > also > > no mention of something that is often even more basic than > > electricity, namely running water; presumably if the mother is going > > to be producing formula, she has to have access to clean water. > > > > Vygotsky talks a lot (at the end of almost every chapter in "The > > History > of > > the Development of the Higher Psychological Functions) about a kind > > of pathogenetic analysis: that is, seeing the decay of higher > > functions as > an > > example of their development in reverse motion (a stripping away of > layers > > to reveal how they were laid on in the first place). We often forget > > that over two thirds of his written work--and almost all of his > > published work--was either pedology or "defectology" rather than > > psychology or cultural historical theory. > > > > It's possible to think of what is happening in Zimbabwe (and similar > > instances of kukiya-kiya in Cuba and even China after the Soviets > > were > > expelled) as an instance of cultural-historical pathogenesis: the > > "nice things" of colonialism and mercantilism get stripped away and > > the layer > of > > subsistence agriculture on which it all developed hundreds of years > > ago > is > > revealed again. Use values predominate over exchange values, just as > when a > > stroke victim loses control of the "znachenie" of words but retains > > their "smysl". > > > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 1:15 AM, Zaza Kabayadondo < > > zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > > > Thank you David and Alfredo for being among the first intrepid > > > readers > > and > > > for your positive comments on the article. > > > > > > I also want to thank Mike, Bonnie, Jen, Victor, and Natalia for > > > their organization, support, and persistence in promoting this > > > article for discussion. > > > > > > I want to introduce myself to you all and to address any questions > > > and discussion points that come up in this thread. > > > > > > I am from Zimbabwe and have lived in Norway, Australia, and the > > > United States (Massachusetts and California). I left Zimbabwe in > > > 2003, years > > after > > > the contentious land reform program of 1999-2001. After all > agricultural > > > production ceased in those years, the country slid into a state of > > economic > > > free fall that persists and worsens today. The displacement of > > livelihoods, > > > and of a Zimbabwean diaspora, has forced new activities to emerge: > > > kukiya-kiya, the everyday hustle that allows citizens to make-do, > > > to > > source > > > food, money, and deals that can get them by for one more day. > > > > > > This research is inspired by the ongoing crisis in Zimbabwe. > > > Because of economic collapse, Zimbabweans describe themselves as > > > being on the > > margins, > > > or fringes, politically, geographically, historically. More simply put: > > > these are not normal times for the country, and the crisis > > > isolates its citizens from the rest of the world. One scholar of > > > the crisis, Jeremy Jones, has referred to this difficult period > > > for Zimbabweans as a "suspension of the spatio-temporal horizon." > > > (referenced in the article > > as > > > Jones, 2010) Because the crisis translates to the collapse and > disrepair > > of > > > everyday tools and infrastructure, I find it more helpful to look > > > at > the > > > crisis as an environment of heightened sensory attention to the > material > > > that make the relationships between mind, culture, and activity > > > more pronounced. The objects surrounding us, in their state of > > > displacement > or > > > disgrace, don't only communicate affordances in regards to > > > possible physical action, they also inspire a very productive > > > questioning (and sometimes despair) and reimagining of who we are as social beings. > > > > > > David is very right in drawing attention to the concept of > disinheritance > > > as a marriage of Marx's alienation and Vygotsky's cultural heritage. > With > > > the concept of disinheritance, I am trying to embrace both, so > > > that we > > can > > > think about the mind with an eye for processes that alienate or > > > disenfranchise learners. What is going on in the mind when one is > > alienated > > > from present activity? In what ways can the activity of making do > > > (resourcefulness or the hustle to survive in abnormal times) > > > enrich the models we have for mind and culture? > > > > > > To Alfredo's last comment about the many connections and pursuit > > > of > open > > > threads - what a pleasant and happy outcome! I have every hope > > > that, > > while > > > this is indeed a case study from a very unusual time and place, > > > the > > concept > > > of disinheritance can be useful for examining everyday activity in > normal > > > times too. Recently, a colleague who studies the history of > > > segregation > > in > > > the United States, mentioned she could see disinheritance at play > > > in "Whites-only" spaces and objects. I am curious to hear what > > > other > threads > > > and connections XMCA readers find. > > > > > > Looking forward to more discussion, > > > > > > Zaza > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I could not agree more with David's remarks concerning the > > > > beautiful writing and the sensory explosions that this article is replete with. > > > > Indeed, as I was reading it, I was thinking that the reading had > > > > a synesthetic aspect to it, as if moving through so very diverse > concepts > > > and > > > > metaphors was like seeing lots of vivid colours one after > > > > another, > some > > > > more enlightening, others almost blinding, but all forming an > > incredibly > > > > dense wave of topics on the intermeshing of culture and cognition. > > > > > > > > Among the many (not always followed-up) instances, I found the > analysis > > > on > > > > the section "gendered intimacy" particularly appealing in that > > > > the > > > analysis > > > > shows how the designers come to understand a prosthetic > > > > prototype in > > and > > > > through reference to actual breasts and breastfeeding in a > > > > culture, > and > > > by > > > > the same token, come to understand actual breasts and > > > > breastfeeding > as > > > > manifestations of a gendered culture in and through an inquiry > > > > into a prosthetic prototype. The same goes for the contrasts > > > > between younger > > and > > > > older generations, urban and rural... > > > > > > > > The connections are so many that invite to reading like those > > > > books > > that > > > > offer different possibilities to continue the story, and where > > > > you > can > > > > choose jumping from one page to a non-contiguous page depending > > > > on > the > > > > thread you follow. I personally will go back to the text and > > > > will > > follow > > > > some of the opened threads that, precisely because of their low > > fidelity, > > > > allow moving quite flexibly. But I also hope not to get lost, or > > > > just disconnected, and so I guess some degree of fidelity will > > > > also be > > needed. > > > > Thanks for a great read. > > > > Alfredo > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > > > on behalf of David Kellogg > > > > Sent: 05 October 2016 04:44 > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion > > > > > > > > The first thing I notice about the paper is how "resplendent" it > > > > is > in > > > > beautiful writing, e.g, > > > > > > > > "Given this symmetry between prototyping and kukiya-kiya, a > prototyping > > > bin > > > > resplendent with objects of disinheritance would be a powerful > > > > way to > > see > > > > the confluence of mind, culture, and activity." > > > > > > > > The very next sentence tells us that the prototyping bin is > > > > really an > > old > > > > plastic tub "populated with a sensory explosion of" matter out > > > > of > > place. > > > > Dear XMCA reader, if you haven't read it yet, you are in for a treat. > > > > > > > > The second thing I notice, though, is the sensory explosion of > > > > new concepts, many of which are unexplained, but make perfect > > > > sense if > you > > > sit > > > > and think about them. Let me just take the new concepts that > > > > appear > in > > my > > > > example sentences, and see if I can gloss them; the author can > > > > let me > > > know > > > > if I have him right. > > > > > > > > Prototyping means developing objects from "low-fidelity" (that > > > > is, > poor > > > > copies) to "high resolution technology" (i.e. not copies at all, > > > > but > > new > > > > objects). So prototyping involves the emergence of NEW > > > > technologies > > from > > > > the inability to copy the old. For example, in China when the > > > > old > > Soviet > > > > tractors designed for giant Kolkhoz farms all broke down, they > > introduced > > > > walking tractors (which you can still see everywhere, and which > > > > have > > now > > > > spread to Korea). > > > > > > > > Kukiya-kiya means the exaptation of high resolution technology > > > > for relatively low-fidelity purposes that are more suitable to > > > > an economy > > now > > > > thrown back on a pre-imperialist and even pre-mercantilist > subsistence > > > > economy. For example, in the Korean countryside, when peasants > > > > run > out > > of > > > > washing powder for their washing machines, they use them to > > > > store rice. It's in that sense that kukiya-kiya is the opposite > > > > of > > > prototyping; a > > > > symmetrical process. > > > > > > > > Disinheritance means not simply alienation, in the Marxist sense > > > > of > > being > > > > confronted by but unable to reappropriate the objects of your > > > > own > > labor, > > > > but being written out of the cultural endowment altogether, > > > > because > the > > > > artifacts you have "inherited" confront you as white elephants, > > requiring > > > > more maintenance than they can possibly justify. > > > > > > > > I wonder if high resolution technology isn't intrinsically > > disinheriting. > > > > For example, kids can still play board games that are thousands > > > > of > > years > > > > old, but they can't use videogames that were made only decades ago. > In > > > > contrast, the finest extant technology for making sense of human > > > > experience, namely language, is decidedly soft on hardware. > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Macquarie University. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Xmca-ers -- > > > > > > > > > > Back in June I made a hurried attempt to make available for > > discussion > > > > the > > > > > paper on the design process of Zimbabwean medical > > > > > professionals > > seeking > > > > to > > > > > create an unusual kind of prosthetic devices. Summer and some > > > > communication > > > > > came rushing up to overwhelm the effort. > > > > > > > > > > Zaza has been back in touch and is ready to discuss the paper. > > > > > I am > > > > cutting > > > > > and pasting the title and abstract below. And I am attaching > > > > > the > > paper > > > > > which was open for free access for a while, but if it is now, > > > > > I > > cannot > > > > find > > > > > where on the publisher's re-designed web page. > > > > > > > > > > Summer having passed other impediments will surely arise, but > > > > > in > the > > > > > meantime, here is a very unusual paper about design for us to > > > > > think > > > > about. > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Oct 9 10:36:44 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 10:36:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] A Suggestion for Traffic Control: Message-ID: Hi Peter et al -- Thanks for posting the materials for a mini-course on LSV and dekektology, Peter, and for the notes with the next steps in the contrast between perceptual and conceptual meaning distinction and its relation to language. In order to *de*crease the chances that these discussions will lead us away from Zazza's paper, I suggest that we bracket these two topics for future continued discussion or link our observations back to a point that Zazza is trying to make. To this end, I am going to post a note about other features of the article that have not yet been discussed and raise another issue of interest in the article concerning the use of prototyping as a methodology. It seems more than a little relevant in that regard. Perhaps others have other questions or observations arising from discussion. It may take me a while to get a next note posted, so anyone of such a mind should jump in. mike PS- We are living in interesting times even though everyone knows one ought not too! Going out to walk my precinct. -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Oct 9 16:56:10 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 16:56:10 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Kukiya--kiya incident and question Message-ID: Zaza et al - As good luck would have it, this discussion has started just as a junior colleague is starting to start to write up a project in which he was seeking to implement a prototype activity using complex modern digital equipment. The project involved UCSD undergrads and kids in a far off neighborhood making a complex Xmas display using arduinos and gingerbread, among other things. On any session, half the undergrads were learning at UCSD and half were with the kids and the "expert" on arduinos and making odd displays (fancy electronic hats to wear to the open day at our local race track). We wanted both to create a prototype distribute educational/communication system and to contrast learning in situ with learning via the video/audio feed. Everything that could go wrong went wrong, but in the end, all of the kids and students were enthusiastic about the experience and the darned display sort of worked. The focus of my work with the class this was a part of was to tell them that the class was a gold mine of experience and information on how to engage in creating work arounds. But we never theorized the idea ( somehow is seems that creating activities does not count in the maker movement as much as creating gizmos). It seems we were too busy creating work arounds to stop and theorize about the mess we had gotten ourselves into. Now your paper has provided a strong rationale for prototyping, design, that emphasizes ideas I associate with the chat tradition. And of course it is an indigenous category for the people among whom you worked. As a result of the discussion, I looked up "work around' on google scholar. The emphasis there is on modern societies where, relatively speaking, there are lots of resources. But as you point out, the special interest in your case does not imply that the concept only applies there, but "even in the make movement in the US." In a way, that tom hanks film about the guy stranded on Mars seems a relevant case. I also think your emphasis at the beginning and in your examples in the following is important: The prototype not only choreographs what the team members are doing, but also makes different future uses imaginable. The prototype amplifies tensions in the team and puts on display how an emergent tool, the bottle-feeding device, comes to be loaded with ?previous patterns of reasoning? [and cognitive residue-mc](Pea, 1953, p. 53). This was certainly true in the local case as well. In moving ahead to develop our own ideas, it would be helpful to get more clarity about your Figures 2 & 3, the radiating sequences of bids, themes,contexts, and scaffolds. The print is so small that I cannot decipher the diagrams. I would really like to get clearer on how you categorized the talk in the session starting with Esther, but am having trouble connecting text and diagram. Maybe its only my aging eyesight, but this may be a problem for others as well. Could you perhaps post a note about the two diagrams and how you move from transcript to diagram? mike PS-- I encountered an unusual kukiya-kiya on Friday. I asked an administrator about an account I wanted to get updated on. In order to get that information, she had to log onto one of (obviously many) web pages in the university. As soon as she figured out where to get the information, she turned to a roledex on her desk next to her keyboard. "It has all the passwords" she said, adding, "I know you aren't supposed to write them down, but....." This seems like a kukiya-kiya work-around arising from encryption concerns that overload the system and force the use of a backup that is considered risky and incorrect. But it works and no one is telling. From arturo.escandon@gmail.com Sun Oct 9 21:52:28 2016 From: arturo.escandon@gmail.com (Arturo Escandon) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 13:52:28 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to urbanistic and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual challenge of oral utterances. The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words when asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese syllabic system to transliterate sounds. Best Arturo Escand?n On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg wrote: > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied linguistics or > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, sociogenetic, > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful article on > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would help us to > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and microgenetic > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was around when > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a constant feature > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly associated with the > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and doesn't use > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, Lewin, > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use the term > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi psychology and > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, denounces > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in Psychoneurology". I > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external > perception with perceiving meaning. > > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls his "micro" > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to biological, > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a particular > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high fidelity and > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees that her > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual meaning. But > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the specific > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis is what you > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are reading > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Oct 10 13:17:30 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 07:17:30 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arturo: Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking about. Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think there are three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of the ZPD. a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I think the idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were picked up in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". But there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there hasn't been a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by the child independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just too attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, there hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological lectures, but these haven't been translated yet). b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's interesting to compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological lectures: https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, 1998: 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing "test" with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total nonsense. Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is infinitely malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of mediation, can become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from its Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function MUST be explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. One learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply that the first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second does not. The functional explanation is that the first has the right functional motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while the other does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means that they are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot easier than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the future are linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird inversion of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future is intrinsically non-determinable. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon wrote: > David, > > In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a > moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to urbanistic > and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer > "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that > reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual challenge of > oral utterances. > > The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words when > asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > Best > > > Arturo Escand?n > > On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg wrote: > > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied linguistics or > > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, sociogenetic, > > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful article on > > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would help us > to > > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and microgenetic > > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > > > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was around when > > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a constant > feature > > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly associated with > the > > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and doesn't use > > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, Lewin, > > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use the > term > > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi psychology and > > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, denounces > > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in Psychoneurology". I > > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external > > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls his > "micro" > > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to biological, > > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a particular > > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high fidelity > and > > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees that > her > > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual meaning. But > > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the specific > > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis is what > you > > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are reading > > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Oct 10 13:39:12 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 07:39:12 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: <9CC4CDBC-EAFE-4373-A12E-444F9F48588C@tlu.ee> References: <57f98d63.cd96620a.1752d.d0b3@mx.google.com> <9CC4CDBC-EAFE-4373-A12E-444F9F48588C@tlu.ee> Message-ID: Rein: Thanks for that. It actually explained a mystery about which I have always wondered: in South Korea, the "green" trafflic lights are always referred to as "blue". This is weird: Korean is full of ancient Chinese words, and ancient Chinese does not distinguish between green and blue (though modern Chinese does). But the words used for traffic lights are not Chinese in their etymology: they are pure Korean. I'm a Whorfian. Not an apologetic one, not a sort of "well, he was sort of right but he exaggerated but still...." embarrassed Whorfian: I'm all in. But what people don't get about Whorf is his idea of "cryptotypes": the unconscious tendencies in language, which we do not notice for the same reason that fish don't notice whether water is green or blue until we take them out of it. For example, Whorf notes that English doesn't explicitly mark nouns for gender: unlike Spanish or French you can say "a" or "the" without figuring out whether the thing you are talking about is a "he" or a "she" or an "it". But as soon as you want to use a pronoun, you DO have to figure out what whether it's male, female or neuter. So gender is implicit in English, but it's always there (case too). Now, I think that in the same way all languages mark the difference between green and blue, including ancient Chinese and pure Korean. Yes, if you put up a stoplight in Kanghwamun with a blue light instead of a green one, the cars will still stop on red and go on blue. But that doesn't mean that the difference between green and blue isn't there. It just means that it's not explicit in the lexicogrammar or in the behaviour based on it. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Rein Raud wrote: > This is a good example of how language and other learned resources > interfere with perception. Another example of this is the case overstated > by Benjamin Lee Whorf about the capacities of language to structure > thought, which are nonetheless there. The famous experiment with English > and Tarahumara speakers, conducted by Kay and Kempton in 1984, demonstrates > this quite clearly. Tarahumara does not have a separate word for ?green", > the same word denotes both ?green" and ?blue?. The participants were given > a heap of marbles in three colours: dark green, light green and blue, and > told to divide them into two heaps according to colour. English speakers > grouped together dark green and light green (as ?green?), while Tarahumara > speakers grouped dark green and blue together, as the wavelength of these > colours is closer to each other and the physiological perception of them > accordingly also. Thus the presence of the concept of ?green?, uniting a > range of wavelengths into one, structured the perception of the marbles by > English speakers, but not by Tarahumara speakers who did not have it. > > Best wishes, > > Rein Raud > > > > On 09 Oct 2016, at 05:55, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > Here's Vygotsky's example. An infant sees a pocket watch doesn't notice > the > > time. An adult sees the time and doesn't notice the watch. A small child > > will have some trouble understanding how a pocket watch and the clock on > > the side of the town hall tower could possible be the same sort of thing; > > an adult has trouble understanding how they could ever be seen > > as significantly different. > > > > At some point (Vygotsky says it is early childhood, the development of > > speech) we start noticing "inner meaning"; that is, not ???????? > ?????????? > > but ????????? ?????????? - ?????? ?????????? ??????????. After that > point, > > the world is never quite the same place; we stop living in a world of > > objects and start living in a world of meanings instead. > > > > Vygotsky asks his students to think of the way a chessboard looks when > you > > don't know how to play chess--you might group the pieces by color, or by > > shape, putting the black pieces on black squres and white pieces on > white > > squares. But when you start to play, you suddenly realize that a black > > rook can enter a deadly relationship with a white queen, and if you are > > really good, the possibility of the possibility of that relationship is > > enough for you to act on. That's what the meaning-filled world looks > like > > to a human who knows how to play the semantic game. > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 11:30 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> David and Larry -- > >> > >> Could you expand some more on the distinction between semantic meaning > and > >> perceptual meaning? > >> > >> I am having trouble seeing what you mean. :-) > >> mike > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 5:20 PM, wrote: > >> > >>> David, > >>> So when we enter Zaza?s article (exploring prototyping and design > >>> methodology) we are entering semantic meaning as a way to rethink > >>> perception. > >>> Semantic meaning is linked to perceptual meaning but these types of > >>> meanings are distinct. > >>> Is this distinction you propose explicit in how Zaza is rethinking > >>> perception or are you extending or making explicit what you perceive > as two > >>> different forms of meaning. > >>> Your post is intriguing and calls me into wanting to understand more > >>> clearly this distinction between semantic meaning (logo genesis) and > >>> perceptual meaning. > >>> > >>> My reason for my saying that I paused when reading the first 2 > >>> paragraphs of the article as I felt myself being called into a new > *space > >>> of reasons* that was unfamiliar and I was trying to get my bearings on > >>> rethinking perception. > >>> Your response turns us towards *meaning* and semantic ways of knowing > and > >>> logo genesis. > >>> Leaves me a bit disoriented but fascinated to learn more. > >>> > >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>> > >>> From: David Kellogg > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > >> > >> > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Oct 11 09:44:59 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 09:44:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Asst Prof - Literacy - BU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another interesting job possibility. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Beth Warren Date: Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 7:57 AM Subject: Asst Prof - Literacy - BU To: Beth Warren Dear Colleagues, Please share the attached job announcement (Asst Prof, Literacy Education, PreK-6) with potential candidates and within your professional networks. Thank you! Beth Beth Warren Associate Professor Language and Literacy School of Education Boston University bwarren@bu.edu Co-Director Ch?che Konnen Center TERC 2067 Massachusetts Avenue Cambridge, MA 02140 Beth_Warren@terc.edu -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BU SED-ASTP-Literacy Search.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 36191 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161011/ccdcdee1/attachment.pdf From l-salus@northwestern.edu Tue Oct 11 10:05:16 2016 From: l-salus@northwestern.edu (Laura Salus) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 17:05:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Tenured faculty position at Northwestern's School of Education and Social Policy Message-ID: <50ec679937a14440b784cd2d72b26961@chcspmbx05.ads.northwestern.edu> Hello, Attached you will find a job description for a tenured faculty position at Northwestern University's School of Education and Social Policy. The position seeks a "STEM Scholar and Director of the Office of STEM Education Partnerships (OSEP)". A detailed job description can also be found here: http://www.sesp.northwestern.edu/common/newsCenter/opportunities/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OSEP Director Ad.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 337080 bytes Desc: OSEP Director Ad.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161011/038f0fbe/attachment.pdf From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Tue Oct 11 13:18:19 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 20:18:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kukiya--kiya incident and question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1476217101691.859@iped.uio.no> Zaza, Mike, all, Mike comments raises in my a question that I already had while reading the article, and which has to do with the analogies that have been here drawn between kukiya-kiya in Zimbabwe, and the Maker movement that is becoming commonplace in many Western countries, a "movement" the cultivation and research around which there are increasing amounts of public money being injected into (my department in Oslo, for example, has just now become involved in a large European project about maker spaces). I was wondering how much we are gaining by positively comparing both movements, and what we may be loosing (that is, how these two different movements may actually be very different historical movements). And so I was thinking that perhaps the distinctions may become when the phenomena are approached as historical materialist phenomena. Because one may easily see that, despite the similarities being discussed in terms of "work around," kukiya-kiya and the maker movement in the West are truly different things, albeit perhaps outcomes of the same economical system. Thus, Zaza's discussion on disinheritance, which makes all the sense in the context of "the role international development schemes and humanitarian aid efforts play in destabilising African economies" (p. 172). Obviously, the same discussion does not seem to fit the Maker movement, the origin of which may indeed relate to an over-production and devaluation of otherwise expensive and resource-demanding technologies, as well as of an emergent network of literate actors using new media to spread practices and ideas, to disagree with established orders, etc... These two movements seem extremely different to me. But, of course, at the level of imagination, at the level of opening new ways of perceiving and conceiving reality, both practices seem to have lots in common. I think it is to this level that many of the questions I find emerging in Mike's as well as in our previous discussion posts. I wonder what the author and other xmca'ers think about this differences/similarities. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: 10 October 2016 01:56 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Kukiya--kiya incident and question Zaza et al - As good luck would have it, this discussion has started just as a junior colleague is starting to start to write up a project in which he was seeking to implement a prototype activity using complex modern digital equipment. The project involved UCSD undergrads and kids in a far off neighborhood making a complex Xmas display using arduinos and gingerbread, among other things. On any session, half the undergrads were learning at UCSD and half were with the kids and the "expert" on arduinos and making odd displays (fancy electronic hats to wear to the open day at our local race track). We wanted both to create a prototype distribute educational/communication system and to contrast learning in situ with learning via the video/audio feed. Everything that could go wrong went wrong, but in the end, all of the kids and students were enthusiastic about the experience and the darned display sort of worked. The focus of my work with the class this was a part of was to tell them that the class was a gold mine of experience and information on how to engage in creating work arounds. But we never theorized the idea ( somehow is seems that creating activities does not count in the maker movement as much as creating gizmos). It seems we were too busy creating work arounds to stop and theorize about the mess we had gotten ourselves into. Now your paper has provided a strong rationale for prototyping, design, that emphasizes ideas I associate with the chat tradition. And of course it is an indigenous category for the people among whom you worked. As a result of the discussion, I looked up "work around' on google scholar. The emphasis there is on modern societies where, relatively speaking, there are lots of resources. But as you point out, the special interest in your case does not imply that the concept only applies there, but "even in the make movement in the US." In a way, that tom hanks film about the guy stranded on Mars seems a relevant case. I also think your emphasis at the beginning and in your examples in the following is important: The prototype not only choreographs what the team members are doing, but also makes different future uses imaginable. The prototype amplifies tensions in the team and puts on display how an emergent tool, the bottle-feeding device, comes to be loaded with ?previous patterns of reasoning? [and cognitive residue-mc](Pea, 1953, p. 53). This was certainly true in the local case as well. In moving ahead to develop our own ideas, it would be helpful to get more clarity about your Figures 2 & 3, the radiating sequences of bids, themes,contexts, and scaffolds. The print is so small that I cannot decipher the diagrams. I would really like to get clearer on how you categorized the talk in the session starting with Esther, but am having trouble connecting text and diagram. Maybe its only my aging eyesight, but this may be a problem for others as well. Could you perhaps post a note about the two diagrams and how you move from transcript to diagram? mike PS-- I encountered an unusual kukiya-kiya on Friday. I asked an administrator about an account I wanted to get updated on. In order to get that information, she had to log onto one of (obviously many) web pages in the university. As soon as she figured out where to get the information, she turned to a roledex on her desk next to her keyboard. "It has all the passwords" she said, adding, "I know you aren't supposed to write them down, but....." This seems like a kukiya-kiya work-around arising from encryption concerns that overload the system and force the use of a backup that is considered risky and incorrect. But it works and no one is telling. From zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 18:45:21 2016 From: zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com (Zaza Kabayadondo) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 21:45:21 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kukiya--kiya incident and question In-Reply-To: <1476217101691.859@iped.uio.no> References: <1476217101691.859@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Dear Mike and Alfredo, Thank you for your questions and for the very interesting connections you've drawn to examples of activity in your respective work places. *Comparisons between kukiya-kiya and Making (Maker movement)?* Prototyping is at the center of both. In both, the actor, has an idea of a desirable outcome but has to figure out a way to achieve it. The main difference for me is in the *how*. Making (Maker movement) may come with a prescribed set of tools (arduinos, breadboards, sensors, soldering irons, etc) - there is a kit that comes with the activity, around which all activity is orchestrated. In kukiya-kiya, there is no guarantee of resources. Of course you might have Making that emerges from found tools and resources (whatever is in the garage or classroom or studio), and in this regard, the more deformalized variant of Making seems closer to kukiya-kiya to me. I think the rougher the start materials, the less the materials suggest that some outcomes are more "appropriate" than others, the more likely it is for kukiya-kiya to emerge. I do think the concept is broad enough to point to a whole host of activities. And the language supports this. In Zimbabwe, kukiya-kiya, is interchangeable with other verbs kubata-bata, kujingiridza, kubhaizira etc. *Work-arounds and an emerging glossary* The word kukiya-kiya literally means "to lock and then unlock" - to describe how you might jangle an ill-fitting key in a lock to figure out how to unlock a jammed door. It can also be translated to "making do" and it is a metaphor for trying one way, then when that fails, trying other unprescribed ways to make something happen. I chose to use "work-around" as the translation of kukiya-kiya because there are verbs that have emerged in Shona to signify the kind of thinking. I am finding that many similar metaphors can be found in other languages. I've started constructing a glossary... here are some examples: [Please send in entries that you think fit] *Term* *Language* *Country* Tahmanut Hebrew Israel kukiya-kiya Shona Zimbabwe kubata-bata Shona Zimbabwe kujingiridza Shona Zimbabwe kubhaizira Shona Zimbabwe jugaad Hindi India jeitinho Portuguese Brazil bricolage French hack English side hustle English street smart English street wise English viveza criolla Spanish Uruguay, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela malandragem Portuguese Brazil lei de G?rson Portuguese Brazil malicia ind?gena Spanish Colombia Bodge English Chind?gu Japanese Gung-ho ? China Redneck Technology English US Kludge (also kluge) English UK Syst?me D French Trick 17 English Germany Trick 77 English Switzerland Trick 3 English Finland kikka kolmonen Finnish Finland se d?merder French d?brouillardise French se d?brouiller French On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Zaza, Mike, all, > > Mike comments raises in my a question that I already had while reading the > article, and which has to do with the analogies that have been here drawn > between kukiya-kiya in Zimbabwe, and the Maker movement that is becoming > commonplace in many Western countries, a "movement" the cultivation and > research around which there are increasing amounts of public money being > injected into (my department in Oslo, for example, has just now become > involved in a large European project about maker spaces). I was wondering > how much we are gaining by positively comparing both movements, and what we > may be loosing (that is, how these two different movements may actually be > very different historical movements). And so I was thinking that perhaps > the distinctions may become when the phenomena are approached as historical > materialist phenomena. Because one may easily see that, despite the > similarities being discussed in terms of "work around," kukiya-kiya and the > maker movement in the West are truly different things, albeit perhaps > outcomes of the same economical system. Thus, Zaza's discussion on > disinheritance, which makes all the sense in the context of "the role > international development schemes and humanitarian aid efforts play in > destabilising African economies" (p. 172). Obviously, the same discussion > does not seem to fit the Maker movement, the origin of which may indeed > relate to an over-production and devaluation of otherwise expensive and > resource-demanding technologies, as well as of an emergent network of > literate actors using new media to spread practices and ideas, to disagree > with established orders, etc... These two movements seem extremely > different to me. > > But, of course, at the level of imagination, at the level of opening new > ways of perceiving and conceiving reality, both practices seem to have lots > in common. I think it is to this level that many of the questions I find > emerging in Mike's as well as in our previous discussion posts. I wonder > what the author and other xmca'ers think about this > differences/similarities. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: 10 October 2016 01:56 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Kukiya--kiya incident and question > > Zaza et al - > > As good luck would have it, this discussion has started just as a junior > colleague is starting to start to write up a project in which he was > seeking to implement a prototype activity > using complex modern digital equipment. The project involved UCSD > undergrads and kids in a far off neighborhood making a complex Xmas display > using arduinos and gingerbread, among other things. On any session, half > the undergrads were learning at UCSD and half were with the kids and the > "expert" on arduinos and making odd displays (fancy electronic hats to wear > to the open day at our local race track). We wanted both to create a > prototype distribute educational/communication system and to contrast > learning in situ with learning via the video/audio feed. > > Everything that could go wrong went wrong, but in the end, all of the kids > and students were enthusiastic about the experience and the darned display > sort of worked. The focus of my work with the class this was a part of was > to tell them that the class was a gold mine of experience and information > on how to engage in creating work arounds. But we never theorized the idea > ( somehow is seems that creating activities does not count in the maker > movement as much as creating gizmos). It seems we were too busy creating > work arounds to stop and theorize about the mess we had gotten ourselves > into. Now your paper has provided a strong rationale for prototyping, > design, that emphasizes ideas I associate with the chat tradition. And of > course it is an indigenous category for the people among whom you worked. > > As a result of the discussion, I looked up "work around' on google scholar. > The emphasis there is on modern societies where, relatively speaking, there > are lots of resources. But as you point out, the special interest in your > case does not imply that the concept only applies there, but "even in the > make movement in the US." In a way, that tom hanks film about the guy > stranded on Mars seems a relevant case. > > I also think your emphasis at the beginning and in your examples in the > following is important: > > The prototype not only choreographs what the team members are doing, but > also makes > different future uses imaginable. The prototype amplifies tensions in the > team and puts on display how an emergent tool, the bottle-feeding device, > comes to be loaded with ?previous patterns of reasoning? [and cognitive > residue-mc](Pea, 1953, p. 53). > > This was certainly true in the local case as well. > > In moving ahead to develop our own ideas, it would be helpful to get more > clarity about your Figures 2 & 3, the radiating sequences of bids, > themes,contexts, and scaffolds. The print is so small that I cannot > decipher the diagrams. I would really like to get clearer on how you > categorized the talk in the session starting with Esther, but am having > trouble connecting text and diagram. Maybe its only my aging eyesight, but > this may be a problem for others as well. Could you perhaps post a note > about the two diagrams and how you move from transcript to diagram? > > mike > > PS-- I encountered an unusual kukiya-kiya on Friday. I asked an > administrator about an account I wanted to get updated on. In order to get > that information, she had to log onto one of (obviously many) web pages in > the university. As soon as she figured out where to get the information, > she turned to a roledex on her desk next to her keyboard. "It has all the > passwords" she said, adding, "I know you aren't supposed to write them > down, but....." > This seems like a kukiya-kiya work-around arising from encryption concerns > that overload the system and force the use of a backup that is considered > risky and incorrect. But it works and no one is telling. > From zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 19:43:05 2016 From: zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com (Zaza Kabayadondo) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 22:43:05 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kukiya--kiya incident and question In-Reply-To: References: <1476217101691.859@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: I'm sending a separate response to *Mike's request: Could you perhaps post a note about the two diagrams and how you move from transcript to diagram?* The two figures could have been plotted as Cartesian graphs but this would not have shown the relationship as clearly. Imagine a graph with time on the x-axis, and how much of that activity occurs at any given time on the y-axis. In Figures 2 and 3 I have used a clock instead because the clock showed the overlap in the different threads of talk better than Cartesian representation. The clocks can be read from 12 o'clock and clockwise. The thickness of each wedge indicates how much of thread is taking place at that time. As described in the paper, there are four threads - Bids, Themes, Contexts, and Scaffolds. As the participants talk: they make *bids* for teammates' attention; their talk describes *themes* relating to the topic of breastfeeding eg intimacy; and they outline possible *contexts* for use of the prototype eg on a bus; and they discuss *scaffolds* to building a better prototype or improving the idea of their invention. This talk was recorded and because each bid, theme, scaffold, and context was time stamped, it was possible to map which threads where occurring when and for how long. Figure 2 shows a fragment of their conversation (included in transcript in the paper) that lasted roughly 12 minutes; and Figure 3 shows the entire conversation that took place during the prototyping (roughly 48 minutes). In the 12 minute fragment (Figure 2) they are making mostly bids, and these are interspersed with more discussion about the relevant themes. (As described in the paper: "The team focuses on three themes in their discussion: talk about the intimacy of breastfeeding; about the textural experience of using the prototype; and about physical or aesthetic aspects of the prototype." ? Interesting patterns can be seen from the full scope of their conversation. Figure 3 (48 minutes) shows the evolution of their thinking (or talking) on the prototype. This talk precedes their decision on what to build for their prototype and continues to happen as they build the prototype. What becomes clear is that the team makes a lot of bids in the first half of the session (1 to 6 o'clock). Themes are spread evenly throughout the session. Contexts are discussed at intervals - almost as though the teammates take stock of what the prototype (as it is currently built) is saying, and then must deliberate on whether this prototype fits a desired context or if some adjustments must be made. The scaffolds don't really show up until after 6pm, at the expense of bids. ? I've included these images as separate files in case that's an easier way to access them. I welcome and appreciate your comments and questions. On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 9:45 PM, Zaza Kabayadondo < zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Mike and Alfredo, > > Thank you for your questions and for the very interesting connections > you've drawn to examples of activity in your respective work places. > > *Comparisons between kukiya-kiya and Making (Maker movement)?* > Prototyping is at the center of both. In both, the actor, has an idea of a > desirable outcome but has to figure out a way to achieve it. The main > difference for me is in the *how*. Making (Maker movement) may come with > a prescribed set of tools (arduinos, breadboards, sensors, soldering irons, > etc) - there is a kit that comes with the activity, around which all > activity is orchestrated. In kukiya-kiya, there is no guarantee of > resources. Of course you might have Making that emerges from found tools > and resources (whatever is in the garage or classroom or studio), and in > this regard, the more deformalized variant of Making seems closer to > kukiya-kiya to me. I think the rougher the start materials, the less the > materials suggest that some outcomes are more "appropriate" than others, > the more likely it is for kukiya-kiya to emerge. > > I do think the concept is broad enough to point to a whole host of > activities. And the language supports this. In Zimbabwe, kukiya-kiya, is > interchangeable with other verbs kubata-bata, kujingiridza, kubhaizira etc. > > *Work-arounds and an emerging glossary* > The word kukiya-kiya literally means "to lock and then unlock" - to > describe how you might jangle an ill-fitting key in a lock to figure out > how to unlock a jammed door. It can also be translated to "making do" and > it is a metaphor for trying one way, then when that fails, trying other > unprescribed ways to make something happen. I chose to use "work-around" > as the translation of kukiya-kiya because there are verbs that have emerged > in Shona to signify the kind of thinking. I am finding that many similar > metaphors can be found in other languages. I've started constructing a > glossary... here are some examples: [Please send in entries that you think > fit] > > > *Term* *Language* *Country* > Tahmanut Hebrew Israel > kukiya-kiya Shona Zimbabwe > kubata-bata Shona Zimbabwe > kujingiridza Shona Zimbabwe > kubhaizira Shona Zimbabwe > jugaad Hindi India > jeitinho Portuguese Brazil > bricolage French > hack English > side hustle English > street smart English > street wise English > viveza criolla Spanish Uruguay, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela > malandragem Portuguese Brazil > lei de G?rson Portuguese Brazil > malicia ind?gena Spanish Colombia > Bodge English > Chind?gu Japanese > Gung-ho ? China > Redneck Technology English US > Kludge (also kluge) English UK > Syst?me D French > Trick 17 English Germany > Trick 77 English Switzerland > Trick 3 English Finland > kikka kolmonen Finnish Finland > se d?merder French > d?brouillardise French > se d?brouiller French > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> Zaza, Mike, all, >> >> Mike comments raises in my a question that I already had while reading >> the article, and which has to do with the analogies that have been here >> drawn between kukiya-kiya in Zimbabwe, and the Maker movement that is >> becoming commonplace in many Western countries, a "movement" the >> cultivation and research around which there are increasing amounts of >> public money being injected into (my department in Oslo, for example, has >> just now become involved in a large European project about maker spaces). I >> was wondering how much we are gaining by positively comparing both >> movements, and what we may be loosing (that is, how these two different >> movements may actually be very different historical movements). And so I >> was thinking that perhaps the distinctions may become when the phenomena >> are approached as historical materialist phenomena. Because one may easily >> see that, despite the similarities being discussed in terms of "work >> around," kukiya-kiya and the maker movement in the West are truly different >> things, albeit perhaps outcomes of the same economical system. Thus, Zaza's >> discussion on disinheritance, which makes all the sense in the context of >> "the role international development schemes and humanitarian aid efforts >> play in destabilising African economies" (p. 172). Obviously, the same >> discussion does not seem to fit the Maker movement, the origin of which may >> indeed relate to an over-production and devaluation of otherwise expensive >> and resource-demanding technologies, as well as of an emergent network of >> literate actors using new media to spread practices and ideas, to disagree >> with established orders, etc... These two movements seem extremely >> different to me. >> >> But, of course, at the level of imagination, at the level of opening new >> ways of perceiving and conceiving reality, both practices seem to have lots >> in common. I think it is to this level that many of the questions I find >> emerging in Mike's as well as in our previous discussion posts. I wonder >> what the author and other xmca'ers think about this >> differences/similarities. >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> Sent: 10 October 2016 01:56 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Kukiya--kiya incident and question >> >> Zaza et al - >> >> As good luck would have it, this discussion has started just as a junior >> colleague is starting to start to write up a project in which he was >> seeking to implement a prototype activity >> using complex modern digital equipment. The project involved UCSD >> undergrads and kids in a far off neighborhood making a complex Xmas >> display >> using arduinos and gingerbread, among other things. On any session, half >> the undergrads were learning at UCSD and half were with the kids and the >> "expert" on arduinos and making odd displays (fancy electronic hats to >> wear >> to the open day at our local race track). We wanted both to create a >> prototype distribute educational/communication system and to contrast >> learning in situ with learning via the video/audio feed. >> >> Everything that could go wrong went wrong, but in the end, all of the kids >> and students were enthusiastic about the experience and the darned display >> sort of worked. The focus of my work with the class this was a part of was >> to tell them that the class was a gold mine of experience and information >> on how to engage in creating work arounds. But we never theorized the idea >> ( somehow is seems that creating activities does not count in the maker >> movement as much as creating gizmos). It seems we were too busy creating >> work arounds to stop and theorize about the mess we had gotten ourselves >> into. Now your paper has provided a strong rationale for prototyping, >> design, that emphasizes ideas I associate with the chat tradition. And of >> course it is an indigenous category for the people among whom you worked. >> >> As a result of the discussion, I looked up "work around' on google >> scholar. >> The emphasis there is on modern societies where, relatively speaking, >> there >> are lots of resources. But as you point out, the special interest in your >> case does not imply that the concept only applies there, but "even in the >> make movement in the US." In a way, that tom hanks film about the guy >> stranded on Mars seems a relevant case. >> >> I also think your emphasis at the beginning and in your examples in the >> following is important: >> >> The prototype not only choreographs what the team members are doing, but >> also makes >> different future uses imaginable. The prototype amplifies tensions in the >> team and puts on display how an emergent tool, the bottle-feeding device, >> comes to be loaded with ?previous patterns of reasoning? [and cognitive >> residue-mc](Pea, 1953, p. 53). >> >> This was certainly true in the local case as well. >> >> In moving ahead to develop our own ideas, it would be helpful to get more >> clarity about your Figures 2 & 3, the radiating sequences of bids, >> themes,contexts, and scaffolds. The print is so small that I cannot >> decipher the diagrams. I would really like to get clearer on how you >> categorized the talk in the session starting with Esther, but am having >> trouble connecting text and diagram. Maybe its only my aging eyesight, but >> this may be a problem for others as well. Could you perhaps post a note >> about the two diagrams and how you move from transcript to diagram? >> >> mike >> >> PS-- I encountered an unusual kukiya-kiya on Friday. I asked an >> administrator about an account I wanted to get updated on. In order to get >> that information, she had to log onto one of (obviously many) web pages in >> the university. As soon as she figured out where to get the information, >> she turned to a roledex on her desk next to her keyboard. "It has all the >> passwords" she said, adding, "I know you aren't supposed to write them >> down, but....." >> This seems like a kukiya-kiya work-around arising from encryption concerns >> that overload the system and force the use of a backup that is considered >> risky and incorrect. But it works and no one is telling. >> > > -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Figure 3 - Distribution of Activity in Prototyping Session grey copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 257743 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161011/b1350026/attachment-0004.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Figure 2 - Distribution of Activity in Segment The Mother Can Pretend grey copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 249945 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161011/b1350026/attachment-0005.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Figure 2 - Distribution of Activity in Segment The Mother Can Pretend grey copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 249945 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161011/b1350026/attachment-0006.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Figure 3 - Distribution of Activity in Prototyping Session grey copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 257743 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161011/b1350026/attachment-0007.jpg From smago@uga.edu Wed Oct 12 07:16:39 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 14:16:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: JoLLE Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings, Due to the circumstances surrounding the aftermath of Hurricane Matthew, the editors of the Journal of Language and Literacy Education have decided to extend the 2017 Winter Conference submission deadline to Sunday, October 30, by 11:59 p.m. EST. While this extension is available for everyone considering submitting a proposal to JoLLE, our thoughts go out to all those affected by the recent natural disaster, and we hope this extension gives more of our neighbors a chance to be part of JoLLE this year. Sincerely, Peter Smagorinsky JoLLE Faculty Advisor From: Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 9:45 AM To: Hillocks@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU; NCRLL@lists.service.ohio-state.edu; 'LLE-L@listserv.uga.edu' ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Subject: JoLLE Conference Hello Friends, Please consider submitting a proposal to the Journal of Language and Literacy's 2017 Winter Conference. The theme of this year's conference and subsequent spring issue is Out of the Box and Into the Margins. This year JoLLE features educators and students who take risks, sometimes subversively, to employ and widen the spaces between the essentializing forces that we all face. We invite artists, gamers, remixers, techies, and fandoms. We invite all who experiment with the intertwining of identities and all who refuse to be labeled to share and explore how to exert agency within highly constrained contexts--or, in other words, how to move out of the box and into the margins. We invite national and international scholars with ranging research interests in language and literacy education to join us for a participatory conversation on various topics within our field. JoLLE understands literacy in broad terms and welcomes a range of research projects, approaches, and methods. A hallmark of the JoLLE Conference is the interactive and engaging presentations for both attendees and presenters. The deadline for conference proposal submissions is October 12, 2016 at 11:59pm EST. There is more information available both in the attached flyer and at http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/conference/. Feel free to share this information widely with others. Additionally, JoLLE, a peer-reviewed journal, welcomes manuscript submissions for its Spring 2016 issue based on the conference theme, and invites those who present at the conference to consider submitting papers for publication consideration. The deadline for manuscript submissions based on the conference theme is February 28, 2017. Direct any questions about the conference to the chair, Rachel Kaminski Sanders at rks76772@uga.edu. From feine@duq.edu Wed Oct 12 08:32:18 2016 From: feine@duq.edu (Elizabeth Fein) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 11:32:18 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] APA Division 5 Awards for Qualitative Research in Psychology Message-ID: Hello xmca-ers - As Communications Officer for the Society for Qualitative Inquiry in Psychology (a subdivision of APA Division 5) I'm looking to put the word out there about the upcoming Div5 awards. I figured the folks on this list would be able to come up with some strong nominations of people who are doing qualitative research on psychological topics. If you have a colleague, mentor, or former graduate student who has done excellent work with qualitative methods, please consider nominating them for one of these awards. Announcement and information about how to nominate attached below. Best, Elizabeth Division 5 of the American Psychological Association (the Division of Quantitative and Qualitative Methods) awards prizes each year for outstanding work in qualitative and quantitative psychology. The following awards for qualitative inquiry will be awarded in 2017: Distinguished Contributions in Qualitative Inquiry Award Distinguished Contributions to Teaching and Mentoring in Qualitative Inquiry Award Distinguished Early Career Contributions in Qualitative Inquiry Award Distinguished Dissertation in Qualitative Inquiry Award All award recipients will be given an awards plaque and an honorary one-year membership in Division 5. Recipients attending the 2017 APA convention will be honored at the Division 5 Awards Symposium where each will have the opportunity to make a brief presentation. Neither the nominator nor the nominee need be a current or former member of either APA or Division 5. Both self-nominations and nominations by others will be considered. Specific nomination materials required for each award are listed in the attached document. Please send all requested nomination materials by email to Carolyn Anderson, Chair of the 2017 Awards Committee (APA.Div5.Awards@gmail.com or cja@illinois.edu) by December 1, 2016. A confirmation email will be sent when an award package is complete. The outcome of the review process will be announced by February 1, 2017. Should you have any questions concerning the awards, the nomination process, and/or the review process, please contact Carolyn Anderson. -- Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Psychology Duquesne University -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Qualitative Awards description.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 21122 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161012/af09262d/attachment.bin From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 12 10:49:55 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:49:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kukiya--kiya incident and question In-Reply-To: References: <1476217101691.859@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Thanks for the attached figures, Zaza. I am not sure I can tell contexts from scaffolds. For the "distribution in Segment A" would it be correct to read the graph as going: context, theme, bids, scaffold?? Are what look like black lines radiating out scaffolds? I think that the sorts of project I mentioned, where the hi tech "gift" that is offered to create a new kind of educational activity across geographic locales turns out to be woefully inadequate and there is no choice but to engage in kukiya-kiya fits with your suggestion: *more deformalized variant of Making seems closer tokukiya-kiya to me. I think the rougher the start materials, the less the materials suggest that some outcomes are more "appropriate" than others, the more likely it is for kukiya-kiya to emerge.* Our work is all in what might be called deformalized settings, often with totally inadequate resources, which is probably why the paper has a lot of local relevance. And the glossary was a treat! mike PS- I am not sure what the Russian term would be.... literally, rabotat vokrug, but perhaps there is a special term for it. On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:45 PM, Zaza Kabayadondo < zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Mike and Alfredo, > > Thank you for your questions and for the very interesting connections > you've drawn to examples of activity in your respective work places. > > *Comparisons between kukiya-kiya and Making (Maker movement)?* > Prototyping is at the center of both. In both, the actor, has an idea of a > desirable outcome but has to figure out a way to achieve it. The main > difference for me is in the *how*. Making (Maker movement) may come with a > prescribed set of tools (arduinos, breadboards, sensors, soldering irons, > etc) - there is a kit that comes with the activity, around which all > activity is orchestrated. In kukiya-kiya, there is no guarantee of > resources. Of course you might have Making that emerges from found tools > and resources (whatever is in the garage or classroom or studio), and in > this regard, the more deformalized variant of Making seems closer to > kukiya-kiya to me. I think the rougher the start materials, the less the > materials suggest that some outcomes are more "appropriate" than others, > the more likely it is for kukiya-kiya to emerge. > > I do think the concept is broad enough to point to a whole host of > activities. And the language supports this. In Zimbabwe, kukiya-kiya, is > interchangeable with other verbs kubata-bata, kujingiridza, kubhaizira etc. > > *Work-arounds and an emerging glossary* > The word kukiya-kiya literally means "to lock and then unlock" - to > describe how you might jangle an ill-fitting key in a lock to figure out > how to unlock a jammed door. It can also be translated to "making do" and > it is a metaphor for trying one way, then when that fails, trying other > unprescribed ways to make something happen. I chose to use "work-around" as > the translation of kukiya-kiya because there are verbs that have emerged in > Shona to signify the kind of thinking. I am finding that many similar > metaphors can be found in other languages. I've started constructing a > glossary... here are some examples: [Please send in entries that you think > fit] > > > *Term* *Language* *Country* > Tahmanut Hebrew Israel > kukiya-kiya Shona Zimbabwe > kubata-bata Shona Zimbabwe > kujingiridza Shona Zimbabwe > kubhaizira Shona Zimbabwe > jugaad Hindi India > jeitinho Portuguese Brazil > bricolage French > hack English > side hustle English > street smart English > street wise English > viveza criolla Spanish Uruguay, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela > malandragem Portuguese Brazil > lei de G?rson Portuguese Brazil > malicia ind?gena Spanish Colombia > Bodge English > Chind?gu Japanese > Gung-ho ? China > Redneck Technology English US > Kludge (also kluge) English UK > Syst?me D French > Trick 17 English Germany > Trick 77 English Switzerland > Trick 3 English Finland > kikka kolmonen Finnish Finland > se d?merder French > d?brouillardise French > se d?brouiller French > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > Zaza, Mike, all, > > > > Mike comments raises in my a question that I already had while reading > the > > article, and which has to do with the analogies that have been here drawn > > between kukiya-kiya in Zimbabwe, and the Maker movement that is becoming > > commonplace in many Western countries, a "movement" the cultivation and > > research around which there are increasing amounts of public money being > > injected into (my department in Oslo, for example, has just now become > > involved in a large European project about maker spaces). I was wondering > > how much we are gaining by positively comparing both movements, and what > we > > may be loosing (that is, how these two different movements may actually > be > > very different historical movements). And so I was thinking that perhaps > > the distinctions may become when the phenomena are approached as > historical > > materialist phenomena. Because one may easily see that, despite the > > similarities being discussed in terms of "work around," kukiya-kiya and > the > > maker movement in the West are truly different things, albeit perhaps > > outcomes of the same economical system. Thus, Zaza's discussion on > > disinheritance, which makes all the sense in the context of "the role > > international development schemes and humanitarian aid efforts play in > > destabilising African economies" (p. 172). Obviously, the same discussion > > does not seem to fit the Maker movement, the origin of which may indeed > > relate to an over-production and devaluation of otherwise expensive and > > resource-demanding technologies, as well as of an emergent network of > > literate actors using new media to spread practices and ideas, to > disagree > > with established orders, etc... These two movements seem extremely > > different to me. > > > > But, of course, at the level of imagination, at the level of opening new > > ways of perceiving and conceiving reality, both practices seem to have > lots > > in common. I think it is to this level that many of the questions I find > > emerging in Mike's as well as in our previous discussion posts. I wonder > > what the author and other xmca'ers think about this > > differences/similarities. > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of mike cole > > Sent: 10 October 2016 01:56 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Kukiya--kiya incident and question > > > > Zaza et al - > > > > As good luck would have it, this discussion has started just as a junior > > colleague is starting to start to write up a project in which he was > > seeking to implement a prototype activity > > using complex modern digital equipment. The project involved UCSD > > undergrads and kids in a far off neighborhood making a complex Xmas > display > > using arduinos and gingerbread, among other things. On any session, half > > the undergrads were learning at UCSD and half were with the kids and the > > "expert" on arduinos and making odd displays (fancy electronic hats to > wear > > to the open day at our local race track). We wanted both to create a > > prototype distribute educational/communication system and to contrast > > learning in situ with learning via the video/audio feed. > > > > Everything that could go wrong went wrong, but in the end, all of the > kids > > and students were enthusiastic about the experience and the darned > display > > sort of worked. The focus of my work with the class this was a part of > was > > to tell them that the class was a gold mine of experience and information > > on how to engage in creating work arounds. But we never theorized the > idea > > ( somehow is seems that creating activities does not count in the maker > > movement as much as creating gizmos). It seems we were too busy creating > > work arounds to stop and theorize about the mess we had gotten ourselves > > into. Now your paper has provided a strong rationale for prototyping, > > design, that emphasizes ideas I associate with the chat tradition. And of > > course it is an indigenous category for the people among whom you worked. > > > > As a result of the discussion, I looked up "work around' on google > scholar. > > The emphasis there is on modern societies where, relatively speaking, > there > > are lots of resources. But as you point out, the special interest in your > > case does not imply that the concept only applies there, but "even in the > > make movement in the US." In a way, that tom hanks film about the guy > > stranded on Mars seems a relevant case. > > > > I also think your emphasis at the beginning and in your examples in the > > following is important: > > > > The prototype not only choreographs what the team members are doing, but > > also makes > > different future uses imaginable. The prototype amplifies tensions in the > > team and puts on display how an emergent tool, the bottle-feeding device, > > comes to be loaded with ?previous patterns of reasoning? [and cognitive > > residue-mc](Pea, 1953, p. 53). > > > > This was certainly true in the local case as well. > > > > In moving ahead to develop our own ideas, it would be helpful to get more > > clarity about your Figures 2 & 3, the radiating sequences of bids, > > themes,contexts, and scaffolds. The print is so small that I cannot > > decipher the diagrams. I would really like to get clearer on how you > > categorized the talk in the session starting with Esther, but am having > > trouble connecting text and diagram. Maybe its only my aging eyesight, > but > > this may be a problem for others as well. Could you perhaps post a note > > about the two diagrams and how you move from transcript to diagram? > > > > mike > > > > PS-- I encountered an unusual kukiya-kiya on Friday. I asked an > > administrator about an account I wanted to get updated on. In order to > get > > that information, she had to log onto one of (obviously many) web pages > in > > the university. As soon as she figured out where to get the information, > > she turned to a roledex on her desk next to her keyboard. "It has all the > > passwords" she said, adding, "I know you aren't supposed to write them > > down, but....." > > This seems like a kukiya-kiya work-around arising from encryption > concerns > > that overload the system and force the use of a backup that is considered > > risky and incorrect. But it works and no one is telling. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Oct 12 13:32:00 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 07:32:00 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kukiya--kiya incident and question In-Reply-To: References: <1476217101691.859@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: The word "gung ho" (Chinese) is entirely wrong here, but I am trying to think why. "Gung ho" is the southern pronunciation of Mandarin "gong he", which means "cooperative" (it's an abbreviation of "gongye hezuoshe"); it was the slogan of the Chinese industrial cooperative movement during the struggle against the Japanese, small village level enterprises which tried to keep a modicum of industrial production up so that China, whose cities were occupied by Japan and by the right wing dictatorship of Chiang Kaishek, could keep fighting. It was founded by Rewi Alley from New Zealand, and Michael Halliday, the linguist, was an active participant. In the 1940s, the US Marines took over the slogan and popularized it in their fight against the Japanese, without really knowing what it meant. Another possible translation is "stronger together". So one reason that it is not an appropriate translation of kukiya-kiya is that it does not involve individual solutions to social problems: on the contrary, it demands a social solution to lacks and wants which were previously felt onlyh individually. A second reason is that it comes from a period of national construction rather than deconstruction. Yes, the idea is working around and finding solutions, but these solutions don't involve reworking dilapidated commodity economy infrastructure for a subsistence economy, but instead reworking subsistence economy resources for the purpose of creating commodities. Finally, I think "gung ho" has nothing to do with disinheritance: on the contrary, the idea is building up a heritance for the next generation. The next generation was, actually, my wife's generation. In the late fifties and early sixties, when China broke with the USSR, they had a problem that looked a lot more like the situation that Zaza is describing: oil fields and steel plants built under the Soviets which gradually fell into disuse because of the unavailability of parts and the lack of maintenance expertise. In the late fifties, the regime responded with so-called "back yard steel factories" based on Rewi Alley's "gongye hezuoshe", The myth was that if you built a little oven and put in some low grade ore, you could "seed" it with real steel and the whole thing would somehow be alchemically transformed into high grade metal. This produced unusable mud-metal lumps that I still saw lying around in the early 1980s when I was researching a book on the various state planning idiocies of the late fifites. By the time my wife was a school girl, they had realized that this "stone soup" technique really didn't work and instead had recycling campaigns, but people had almost nothing to recycle. My wife and my brother in law got into terrible trouble because they stole the only cooking pot in their family and tried to "recycle it". Fortunately, their elementary school teacher realized what was going on and contacted their frantic grandmother. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 4:49 AM, mike cole wrote: > Thanks for the attached figures, Zaza. I am not sure I can tell contexts > from scaffolds. For the "distribution in Segment A" would it be correct to > read the graph as going: > > context, theme, bids, scaffold?? Are what look like black lines radiating > out scaffolds? > > I think that the sorts of project I mentioned, where the hi tech "gift" > that is offered to create a new kind of educational activity across > geographic locales turns out to be woefully inadequate and there is no > choice but to engage in kukiya-kiya fits with your suggestion: > > > > *more deformalized variant of Making seems closer tokukiya-kiya to me. I > think the rougher the start materials, the less the materials suggest that > some outcomes are more "appropriate" than others, the more likely it is for > kukiya-kiya to emerge.* > > Our work is all in what might be called deformalized settings, often with > totally inadequate resources, which is probably why the paper has a lot of > local relevance. > > And the glossary was a treat! > > mike > PS- I am not sure what the Russian term would be.... literally, rabotat > vokrug, but perhaps there is a special term for it. > > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:45 PM, Zaza Kabayadondo < > zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Dear Mike and Alfredo, > > > > Thank you for your questions and for the very interesting connections > > you've drawn to examples of activity in your respective work places. > > > > *Comparisons between kukiya-kiya and Making (Maker movement)?* > > Prototyping is at the center of both. In both, the actor, has an idea of > a > > desirable outcome but has to figure out a way to achieve it. The main > > difference for me is in the *how*. Making (Maker movement) may come with > a > > prescribed set of tools (arduinos, breadboards, sensors, soldering irons, > > etc) - there is a kit that comes with the activity, around which all > > activity is orchestrated. In kukiya-kiya, there is no guarantee of > > resources. Of course you might have Making that emerges from found tools > > and resources (whatever is in the garage or classroom or studio), and in > > this regard, the more deformalized variant of Making seems closer to > > kukiya-kiya to me. I think the rougher the start materials, the less the > > materials suggest that some outcomes are more "appropriate" than others, > > the more likely it is for kukiya-kiya to emerge. > > > > I do think the concept is broad enough to point to a whole host of > > activities. And the language supports this. In Zimbabwe, kukiya-kiya, is > > interchangeable with other verbs kubata-bata, kujingiridza, kubhaizira > etc. > > > > *Work-arounds and an emerging glossary* > > The word kukiya-kiya literally means "to lock and then unlock" - to > > describe how you might jangle an ill-fitting key in a lock to figure out > > how to unlock a jammed door. It can also be translated to "making do" and > > it is a metaphor for trying one way, then when that fails, trying other > > unprescribed ways to make something happen. I chose to use "work-around" > as > > the translation of kukiya-kiya because there are verbs that have emerged > in > > Shona to signify the kind of thinking. I am finding that many similar > > metaphors can be found in other languages. I've started constructing a > > glossary... here are some examples: [Please send in entries that you > think > > fit] > > > > > > *Term* *Language* *Country* > > Tahmanut Hebrew Israel > > kukiya-kiya Shona Zimbabwe > > kubata-bata Shona Zimbabwe > > kujingiridza Shona Zimbabwe > > kubhaizira Shona Zimbabwe > > jugaad Hindi India > > jeitinho Portuguese Brazil > > bricolage French > > hack English > > side hustle English > > street smart English > > street wise English > > viveza criolla Spanish Uruguay, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela > > malandragem Portuguese Brazil > > lei de G?rson Portuguese Brazil > > malicia ind?gena Spanish Colombia > > Bodge English > > Chind?gu Japanese > > Gung-ho ? China > > Redneck Technology English US > > Kludge (also kluge) English UK > > Syst?me D French > > Trick 17 English Germany > > Trick 77 English Switzerland > > Trick 3 English Finland > > kikka kolmonen Finnish Finland > > se d?merder French > > d?brouillardise French > > se d?brouiller French > > > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > wrote: > > > > > Zaza, Mike, all, > > > > > > Mike comments raises in my a question that I already had while reading > > the > > > article, and which has to do with the analogies that have been here > drawn > > > between kukiya-kiya in Zimbabwe, and the Maker movement that is > becoming > > > commonplace in many Western countries, a "movement" the cultivation and > > > research around which there are increasing amounts of public money > being > > > injected into (my department in Oslo, for example, has just now become > > > involved in a large European project about maker spaces). I was > wondering > > > how much we are gaining by positively comparing both movements, and > what > > we > > > may be loosing (that is, how these two different movements may actually > > be > > > very different historical movements). And so I was thinking that > perhaps > > > the distinctions may become when the phenomena are approached as > > historical > > > materialist phenomena. Because one may easily see that, despite the > > > similarities being discussed in terms of "work around," kukiya-kiya and > > the > > > maker movement in the West are truly different things, albeit perhaps > > > outcomes of the same economical system. Thus, Zaza's discussion on > > > disinheritance, which makes all the sense in the context of "the role > > > international development schemes and humanitarian aid efforts play in > > > destabilising African economies" (p. 172). Obviously, the same > discussion > > > does not seem to fit the Maker movement, the origin of which may indeed > > > relate to an over-production and devaluation of otherwise expensive and > > > resource-demanding technologies, as well as of an emergent network of > > > literate actors using new media to spread practices and ideas, to > > disagree > > > with established orders, etc... These two movements seem extremely > > > different to me. > > > > > > But, of course, at the level of imagination, at the level of opening > new > > > ways of perceiving and conceiving reality, both practices seem to have > > lots > > > in common. I think it is to this level that many of the questions I > find > > > emerging in Mike's as well as in our previous discussion posts. I > wonder > > > what the author and other xmca'ers think about this > > > differences/similarities. > > > > > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > on behalf of mike cole > > > Sent: 10 October 2016 01:56 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Kukiya--kiya incident and question > > > > > > Zaza et al - > > > > > > As good luck would have it, this discussion has started just as a > junior > > > colleague is starting to start to write up a project in which he was > > > seeking to implement a prototype activity > > > using complex modern digital equipment. The project involved UCSD > > > undergrads and kids in a far off neighborhood making a complex Xmas > > display > > > using arduinos and gingerbread, among other things. On any session, > half > > > the undergrads were learning at UCSD and half were with the kids and > the > > > "expert" on arduinos and making odd displays (fancy electronic hats to > > wear > > > to the open day at our local race track). We wanted both to create a > > > prototype distribute educational/communication system and to contrast > > > learning in situ with learning via the video/audio feed. > > > > > > Everything that could go wrong went wrong, but in the end, all of the > > kids > > > and students were enthusiastic about the experience and the darned > > display > > > sort of worked. The focus of my work with the class this was a part of > > was > > > to tell them that the class was a gold mine of experience and > information > > > on how to engage in creating work arounds. But we never theorized the > > idea > > > ( somehow is seems that creating activities does not count in the maker > > > movement as much as creating gizmos). It seems we were too busy > creating > > > work arounds to stop and theorize about the mess we had gotten > ourselves > > > into. Now your paper has provided a strong rationale for prototyping, > > > design, that emphasizes ideas I associate with the chat tradition. And > of > > > course it is an indigenous category for the people among whom you > worked. > > > > > > As a result of the discussion, I looked up "work around' on google > > scholar. > > > The emphasis there is on modern societies where, relatively speaking, > > there > > > are lots of resources. But as you point out, the special interest in > your > > > case does not imply that the concept only applies there, but "even in > the > > > make movement in the US." In a way, that tom hanks film about the guy > > > stranded on Mars seems a relevant case. > > > > > > I also think your emphasis at the beginning and in your examples in the > > > following is important: > > > > > > The prototype not only choreographs what the team members are doing, > but > > > also makes > > > different future uses imaginable. The prototype amplifies tensions in > the > > > team and puts on display how an emergent tool, the bottle-feeding > device, > > > comes to be loaded with ?previous patterns of reasoning? [and cognitive > > > residue-mc](Pea, 1953, p. 53). > > > > > > This was certainly true in the local case as well. > > > > > > In moving ahead to develop our own ideas, it would be helpful to get > more > > > clarity about your Figures 2 & 3, the radiating sequences of bids, > > > themes,contexts, and scaffolds. The print is so small that I cannot > > > decipher the diagrams. I would really like to get clearer on how you > > > categorized the talk in the session starting with Esther, but am having > > > trouble connecting text and diagram. Maybe its only my aging eyesight, > > but > > > this may be a problem for others as well. Could you perhaps post a note > > > about the two diagrams and how you move from transcript to diagram? > > > > > > mike > > > > > > PS-- I encountered an unusual kukiya-kiya on Friday. I asked an > > > administrator about an account I wanted to get updated on. In order to > > get > > > that information, she had to log onto one of (obviously many) web pages > > in > > > the university. As soon as she figured out where to get the > information, > > > she turned to a roledex on her desk next to her keyboard. "It has all > the > > > passwords" she said, adding, "I know you aren't supposed to write them > > > down, but....." > > > This seems like a kukiya-kiya work-around arising from encryption > > concerns > > > that overload the system and force the use of a backup that is > considered > > > risky and incorrect. But it works and no one is telling. > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From smago@uga.edu Thu Oct 13 09:30:31 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 16:30:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FWD: Journal of Language and Discrimination Message-ID: Call for Papers New Journal: Journal of Language and Discrimination (JLD) https://journals.equinoxpub.com/index.php/JLD/index The new Journal of Language and Discrimination will be launched in 2017 with Equinox. Discrimination is an important research topic in a large number of diverse but related fields, including linguistics, law, anthropology, sociology and psychology. This complex, multidisciplinary research topic often has a strong focus and concern with language. The new Journal of Language and Discrimination aims to bring together a multidisciplinary synergy of approaches on discrimination as a complex linguistic and non-linguistic phenomenon. In bringing together different research strands that focus on discrimination, the journal hopes to serve as a catalyst for innovation and play a pivotal role in establishing interdisciplinary language and discrimination research worldwide. The editors of JLAD invite papers that reflect the diversity of possible approaches in relation to language and discrimination. The aim is to include work with a wide array of approaches that reflect the diversity and recent developments of research on language and discrimination. Topics may include but are not limited to: - Reflections on the research that has been done on discrimination in your field, and the direction in which research could or should develop - Discussions on broadening the field versus constraining academic subject areas - Consideration of definitions of discrimination, and the benefits and disadvantages of using this term for our research - Theoretical and methodological considerations in interdisciplinary research - Case studies from different fields that relate to language and discrimination - Qualitative analyses on language and discrimination Editors: Editor Sara Mills, Sheffield Hallam University (s.l.millsshu.ac.uk) Editor Isabelle van der Bom, Sheffield Hallam University (i.v.bomshu.ac.uk) Editor Laura Paterson, Lancaster University (l.patersonlancaster.ac.uk) Submission procedure: Please see the website for all the details on how to publish in the Journal of Language and Discrimination and don't hesitate to contact one of the editors for more information on the Journal. From VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za Sun Oct 16 07:40:56 2016 From: VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za (Mary van der Riet) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 14:40:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] decolonising science/maths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: South African education is in a really difficult place it the moment. Its difficult to know where the tensions and disruptions will end, and how, if at all one can play a constructive role. One of the debates is about the need to 'decolonise' education, including science/maths. This call by students has been met with derision and disrespect. One of the few bits of sense about this decolonising has drawn on some cultural-historical philosophy see http://theconversation.com/yes-mathematics-can-be-decolonised-heres-how-to-begin-65963?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%205808&utm_content=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%205808+CID_4eb3c8c0d6199c16245de6a1ef60f7cb&utm_source=campaign_monitor_africa&utm_term=Yes%20mathematics%20can%20be%20decolonised%20Heres%20how%20to%20begin From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Oct 16 11:45:41 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 11:45:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decolonising science/maths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5803cad9.4482620a.3890b.c365@mx.google.com> Mary, Thanks for posting this thought provoking article on learning and being solicited into becoming an *expert*. I want to share a view on expertise through a Merleau-Pontian lens as portrayed in an article written by Kym Maclaren. Actions (gestures in M-P frames) intend meanings in the world. Equally the intended meanings also develop meaningful *places* of the selves involved in generating these intended meanings. For example: The action (gestures) of someone who takes himself to be a specialist or *expert* and prides himself on being able to do things that others are not capable of doing. Let us say an expert sailor demonstrates his expertise at tying special knots swiftly and efficiently ? he MARKS HIMSELF OUT as an expert through his gestures. Tying the knot so quickly, so deftly, that we, the onlookers are left out of the process and experience only the beginning rope and the end product. The experts gestures seem to us, then, to be marvelous, magic, and beyond our ken. He is thereby *set out* as the *solitary expert* with an *in* on this other world, and we onlookers are correlatively *set out* as the excluded, the non-participants. Our experience is very different on the other hand, when this expert *takes it upon himself* to teach us to tie these special knots. All of a sudden this mysterious, magical process is opened up to us. The moves (gestures) ? though still the same in their basic outline ? are slowed down and exaggerated, presented on a larger scale, and we find ourselves drawn into the actions (gestures). As beginners to be sure, clumsy, awkward, and unsure of what we are doing ? but as participants nonetheless. By virtue of slowing down his gestures and opening the gestures up to us the expert *communicates* in his gestures a place for us as learners AND he attributes to himself the identity (the place) of being a teacher. He *makes room* for us in THIS world and treats us as people who could, in principle (in potential) have an *in* on this mutual world while simultaneously treating himself as someone *who shares a world* with us and can on the BASIS OF THIS SHARING, help us to find our way into this *particular* reality. I could add commentary but will let this presentation from Kym Maclaren speak for itself. Mary, This presentation creates a felt-imaginative experience of *expertise* to juxtapose with the article you posted. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Mary van der Riet Sent: October 16, 2016 7:42 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Subject: [Xmca-l] decolonising science/maths South African education is in a really difficult place it the moment. Its difficult to know where the tensions and disruptions will end, and how, if at all one can play a constructive role. One of the debates is about the need to 'decolonise' education, including science/maths. This call by students has been met with derision and disrespect. One of the few bits of sense about this decolonising has drawn on some cultural-historical philosophy see http://theconversation.com/yes-mathematics-can-be-decolonised-heres-how-to-begin-65963?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%205808&utm_content=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%205808+CID_4eb3c8c0d6199c16245de6a1ef60f7cb&utm_source=campaign_monitor_africa&utm_term=Yes%20mathematics%20can%20be%20decolonised%20Heres%20how%20to%20begin From arturo.escandon@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 07:44:09 2016 From: arturo.escandon@gmail.com (Arturo Escandon) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 23:44:09 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for this David. I agree with what you are saying at many levels. Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning component for sure. My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to go beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from doing large longitudinal studies. I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents many problems. Arturo On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg wrote: > Arturo: > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking about. > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think there are > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of the ZPD. > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I think the > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were picked up > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". But > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there hasn't been > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by the child > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just too > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, there > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological lectures, but > these haven't been translated yet). > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's interesting to > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological lectures: > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, 1998: > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing "test" > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total nonsense. > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is infinitely > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of mediation, can > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from its > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function MUST be > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. One > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply that the > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second does not. > The functional explanation is that the first has the right functional > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while the other > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means that they > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot easier > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the future are > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird inversion > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future is > intrinsically non-determinable. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon > wrote: > >> David, >> >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to urbanistic >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual challenge of >> oral utterances. >> >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words when >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. >> >> Best >> >> >> Arturo Escand?n >> >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg wrote: >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied linguistics or >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, sociogenetic, >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful article on >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would help us >> to >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and microgenetic >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). >> > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was around when >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a constant >> feature >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly associated with >> the >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and doesn't use >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. >> > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, Lewin, >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use the >> term >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi psychology and >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, denounces >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in Psychoneurology". I >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external >> > perception with perceiving meaning. >> > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls his >> "micro" >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to biological, >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a particular >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high fidelity >> and >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees that >> her >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? >> > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual meaning. But >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the specific >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis is what >> you >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are reading >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). >> > >> > David Kellogg >> > Macquarie University >> >> From ewall@umich.edu Mon Oct 17 16:33:46 2016 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 18:33:46 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decolonising science/maths In-Reply-To: <5803cad9.4482620a.3890b.c365@mx.google.com> References: <5803cad9.4482620a.3890b.c365@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry The example is nice, but it misses the point. Unless one believes in some sort of transmission theory of knowledge, expertise doesn?t have much to do with teaching or, necessarily, learning. One might say, in fact, there is a space which teacher and learner inhabit called ?studying? and teachers, in effect, make it possible for students to study and hence learn (something only they can do). Some have postulated there is, in fact, two sort of expertise that teachers need: content area knowledge and pedagogical content knowledge (and going slower isn?t at the top of the list). Not in defense of bad mathematics teaching, but mathematicians, normally, do not ?study? how to teach mathematics nor do they, normally, experience in their own learning teachers who have ?studied? mathematics teaching in a substantial fashion. This has nothing to do with ?dead white males?, but with living conceptions of teaching among which the myth of the sufficiency of expertise is paramount. In any case the link that was sent appears to be something written by a person who is firmly against decolonizing mathematics or did I miss something? Ed > On Oct 16, 2016, at 1:45 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > > Mary, > Thanks for posting this thought provoking article on learning and being solicited into becoming an *expert*. > > I want to share a view on expertise through a Merleau-Pontian lens as portrayed in an article written by Kym Maclaren. > > Actions (gestures in M-P frames) intend meanings in the world. Equally the intended meanings also develop meaningful *places* of the selves involved in generating these intended meanings. > For example: > > The action (gestures) of someone who takes himself to be a specialist or *expert* and prides himself on being able to do things that others are not capable of doing. Let us say an expert sailor demonstrates his expertise at tying special knots swiftly and efficiently ? he MARKS HIMSELF OUT as an expert through his gestures. Tying the knot so quickly, so deftly, that we, the onlookers are left out of the process and experience only the beginning rope and the end product. The experts gestures seem to us, then, to be marvelous, magic, and beyond our ken. He is thereby *set out* as the *solitary expert* with an *in* on this other world, and we onlookers are correlatively *set out* as the excluded, the non-participants. > > Our experience is very different on the other hand, when this expert *takes it upon himself* to teach us to tie these special knots. All of a sudden this mysterious, magical process is opened up to us. > > The moves (gestures) ? though still the same in their basic outline ? are slowed down and exaggerated, presented on a larger scale, and we find ourselves drawn into the actions (gestures). As beginners to be sure, clumsy, awkward, and unsure of what we are doing ? but as participants nonetheless. > > By virtue of slowing down his gestures and opening the gestures up to us the expert *communicates* in his gestures a place for us as learners AND he attributes to himself the identity (the place) of being a teacher. He *makes room* for us in THIS world and treats us as people who could, in principle (in potential) have an *in* on this mutual world while simultaneously treating himself as someone *who shares a world* with us and can on the BASIS OF THIS SHARING, help us to find our way into this *particular* reality. > > I could add commentary but will let this presentation from Kym Maclaren speak for itself. > Mary, > This presentation creates a felt-imaginative experience of *expertise* to juxtapose with the article you posted. > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Mary van der Riet > Sent: October 16, 2016 7:42 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Subject: [Xmca-l] decolonising science/maths > > > South African education is in a really difficult place it the moment. Its difficult to know where the tensions and disruptions will end, and how, if at all one can play a constructive role. > One of the debates is about the need to 'decolonise' education, including science/maths. This call by students has been met with derision and disrespect. > One of the few bits of sense about this decolonising has drawn on some cultural-historical philosophy > see > > http://theconversation.com/yes-mathematics-can-be-decolonised-heres-how-to-begin-65963?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%205808&utm_content=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%205808+CID_4eb3c8c0d6199c16245de6a1ef60f7cb&utm_source=campaign_monitor_africa&utm_term=Yes%20mathematics%20can%20be%20decolonised%20Heres%20how%20to%20begin > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 17:33:32 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:33:32 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arturo: Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also be a "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal evolution (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer than I ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good idea to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for "development" and not for learning. Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the what word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we are necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an interpersonal phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very often ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have nothing to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. Thirdly, just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before we go about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our teaching needs. This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", part of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the Collected Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? ???????? ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? ???????????, ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????????? ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be grouped around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. Consequently, when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this appointed time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear afterwards might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral lines of development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the critical age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, i.e. its relationship to the subsequent age." "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the child's psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual development, and not the zone of proximal development at all. Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and learning. He told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid it: instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie that left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need to do now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. David Kellogg Macquarie University . On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon wrote: > Thank you for this David. > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning component > for sure. > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to go > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > doing large longitudinal studies. > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents > many problems. > > > Arturo > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg wrote: > > Arturo: > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking about. > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think there are > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of the > ZPD. > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I think the > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were picked > up > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". But > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there hasn't > been > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by the > child > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just too > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, there > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological lectures, but > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's interesting > to > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological lectures: > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, 1998: > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing "test" > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > nonsense. > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is infinitely > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of mediation, > can > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from its > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function MUST be > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. One > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply that the > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second does > not. > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right functional > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while the > other > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means that they > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot > easier > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the future > are > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird inversion > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future is > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> David, > >> > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to urbanistic > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual challenge of > >> oral utterances. > >> > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words when > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > >> > >> Best > >> > >> > >> Arturo Escand?n > >> > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg wrote: > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > linguistics or > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, sociogenetic, > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful article > on > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would help > us > >> to > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and microgenetic > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > >> > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was around > when > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a constant > >> feature > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly associated > with > >> the > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and doesn't > use > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > >> > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, Lewin, > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use the > >> term > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi psychology > and > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, denounces > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > Psychoneurology". I > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > >> > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls his > >> "micro" > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > biological, > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > particular > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > fidelity > >> and > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees that > >> her > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > >> > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual meaning. > But > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the specific > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis is > what > >> you > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are reading > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > >> > > >> > David Kellogg > >> > Macquarie University > >> > >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 17 17:46:28 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 17:46:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of Zaza's paper (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any time), I feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, but as life allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in at least some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It addresses (I believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a child is "a head taller than herself." Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my interpretation of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about the zoped and play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic implications. See what you think. its 4 pages long. mike On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Arturo: > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also be a > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal evolution > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer than I > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good idea > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for "development" and > not for learning. > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the what > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we are > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an interpersonal > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very often > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have nothing > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. Thirdly, > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before we go > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our teaching > needs. > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", part > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the Collected > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? ???????? > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? ???????????, > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????????? > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be grouped > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. Consequently, > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this appointed > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear afterwards > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral lines of > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the critical > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, i.e. > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the child's > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual development, > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and learning. He > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid it: > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie that > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need to do > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > . > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning component > > for sure. > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to go > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents > > many problems. > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg wrote: > > > Arturo: > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking about. > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think there > are > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of the > > ZPD. > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I think > the > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > picked > > up > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". But > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there hasn't > > been > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by the > > child > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just too > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, there > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological lectures, > but > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's interesting > > to > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological lectures: > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, 1998: > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > "test" > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > nonsense. > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is infinitely > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of mediation, > > can > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from its > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function MUST > be > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. One > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply that > the > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second does > > not. > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right functional > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while the > > other > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means that > they > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot > > easier > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the future > > are > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > inversion > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future is > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> David, > > >> > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to urbanistic > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual challenge of > > >> oral utterances. > > >> > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words when > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > >> > > >> Best > > >> > > >> > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > >> > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > wrote: > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > linguistics or > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > sociogenetic, > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful article > > on > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would > help > > us > > >> to > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and microgenetic > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > >> > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was around > > when > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a constant > > >> feature > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly associated > > with > > >> the > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > doesn't > > use > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > >> > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, Lewin, > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use > the > > >> term > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi psychology > > and > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, denounces > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > Psychoneurology". I > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > >> > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls his > > >> "micro" > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > biological, > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > particular > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > fidelity > > >> and > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees > that > > >> her > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > >> > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual meaning. > > But > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > specific > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis is > > what > > >> you > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > reading > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > >> > > > >> > David Kellogg > > >> > Macquarie University > > >> > > >> > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: franklin in the blocks.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1816631 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161017/af4e33ca/attachment-0001.pdf From mvshea@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 12:29:58 2016 From: mvshea@gmail.com (molly shea) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 12:29:58 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Zaza and Mike, My apologies for entering the conversation on Kukiya-kiya late, however, the article was so compelling I feel I should still enter. First, to Zaza, thank you for writing such a forceful analysis of learning through prototyping. I especially like the ways in which your analytical lens included the political dimensions of problem solving and invoking expertise. There are two ideas within the article that I hope to use and extend in my work as well, and a question for Zaza, Mike, and others at the end of my second musing. The first is your discussion of disinheritance as *an attention to materials?a way of looking at materials that allows the beholder to recognize transience, mutability, intermediateness?that allows Zimbabweans to employ novel and unexpected ways to act within and around the constraints of their material conditions.* By pointing out the separate cognitive practice associated with seeing through disinheritance, the analysis draws attention to the political dimension of learning. The possible activities and therefore learning opportunities that arise through this historical perception change and assumptions about designing learning environments then shifts with these methods of seeing and using materials. It also draws another potential distinction between the Maker Movement and Kukiya?kiya. The Makers Movement doesn?t necessarily claim a political agenda, however, by claiming something a-political or claiming an agenda of advancing technological skills in the name of progress, it has a historical and political situated set of values that may be in opposition to those of Kukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material disinheritance arising in the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? (2016) do a wonderful job of pointing out many of the neoliberal consequences of a maker movement that does not see the lineage of prototyping expertise coming from many low-income communities living in ?tight circumstances?. The power of the design of this prototyping project, for me, comes from centering local expertise in the design of the learning environment. Although prototyping is at the center of both ?making? and ?kukiya?kiya? practices, it seems the political sense making between settings couldn?t be more different. Even within the Zaza paper, the participants question how invention might or might not lead to liberation. I appreciate Zaza's attention to how participants questioned invention and business acumen as a means to ?extricate Zimbabwe from its economic quandary?. A lesser researcher may have ignored this comment as outside of the design process and therefore the data set to be analyzed. The second idea, related to the political dimensions of cognition that are often overlooked, is your analysis of gender and expertise in the design process. I am struck by how the performance of gender and design-expertise came in the form of whispers and informal conversations about hand-bags. It would be great to have more analysis like this one where gender networks inform design. In fact, it seems gender (man/woman/trans/other) is always informing design, but perhaps performance of expertise that is cis-male is sometimes confused with having expertise at all. You analysis offers more nuance about other kinds of performance of expertise. I wonder if discussions about hand-bags creates the intimacy necessary to share female-cis gendered understandings of design problems. I would love to hear your thinking on this matter. Again, thank you for your work and for the insights that this article has provided me. - Molly Shea On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:46 PM, mike cole wrote: > ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of Zaza's paper > (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any time), I > feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. > > I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, but as life > allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in at least > some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. > > So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It addresses (I > believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a child is "a > head taller than herself." > > Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my interpretation > of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about the zoped and > play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic implications. > > See what you think. its 4 pages long. > mike > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Arturo: > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also be a > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > evolution > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer than I > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good > idea > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for "development" > and > > not for learning. > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the what > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we are > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an interpersonal > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very often > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > nothing > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > Thirdly, > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before we > go > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > teaching > > needs. > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", > part > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > Collected > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > ???????? > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > ???????????, > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????????? > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > grouped > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. Consequently, > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this appointed > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear afterwards > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral lines > of > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > critical > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, i.e. > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the child's > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual development, > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and learning. > He > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid it: > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie that > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need to > do > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Macquarie University > > . > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning component > > > for sure. > > > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to go > > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development > > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents > > > many problems. > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > about. > > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think there > > are > > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of > the > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I think > > the > > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > > picked > > > up > > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". > But > > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > hasn't > > > been > > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by the > > > child > > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just too > > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > there > > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological lectures, > > but > > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > interesting > > > to > > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological lectures: > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, 1998: > > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > > "test" > > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > > nonsense. > > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is infinitely > > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > mediation, > > > can > > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from > its > > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function MUST > > be > > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. > One > > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply that > > the > > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second > does > > > not. > > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right functional > > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while the > > > other > > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means that > > they > > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot > > > easier > > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > future > > > are > > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > inversion > > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future is > > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> David, > > > >> > > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a > > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to urbanistic > > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer > > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that > > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual challenge > of > > > >> oral utterances. > > > >> > > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words > when > > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > >> > > > >> Best > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > > >> > > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > > linguistics or > > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > sociogenetic, > > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > article > > > on > > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would > > help > > > us > > > >> to > > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > microgenetic > > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > > >> > > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was around > > > when > > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a constant > > > >> feature > > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly associated > > > with > > > >> the > > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > > doesn't > > > use > > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > >> > > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, Lewin, > > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use > > the > > > >> term > > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > psychology > > > and > > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > denounces > > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > Psychoneurology". I > > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external > > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > >> > > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls > his > > > >> "micro" > > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > > biological, > > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > > particular > > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > > fidelity > > > >> and > > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees > > that > > > >> her > > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > >> > > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > meaning. > > > But > > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > > specific > > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis is > > > what > > > >> you > > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > > reading > > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > >> > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 13:15:26 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 07:15:26 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike likes a discussion to be, as Bernstein put it, well framed and well classified; or at least he likes the threads to be well disentangled and properly subject lined. But perhaps we shouldn't give up on the "The Prototyping Mind" too quickly! As you can see from Molly's careful perusal and forceful restatement of Zaza's major themes, there is still a lot in Zaza's prototyping bin to talk about. The one that interests me, that I think is relevant to the "microgenesis" thread, is what learning means when it means adapting to anti-development. For example, there are undoubtedly work-arounds that people use when their higher psychological functions start to shut down (I watched my mother do quite a few of these, addressing everyone as "you" instead of using names, reacting to novel situations with a delight which effectively hides her astonishment, and above all refraining from trying to understand the reasons for present situations). Similarly, there are ontogenetic work-arounds that people use when commodity production shuts down. But in both cases, we have a kind of development which forgoes time's arrow; we have a notion of development that works backwards and forwards (like the laws of physics as opposed to the laws of thermodynamics). I won't say that suggests relativism (that would be, I think, too moralistic an argument, and it is a rabbit hole we have been down already anyway). But it suggests an atomism that I disagree with (in addition to eschewing time, the laws of physics don't combine matter and meaning the way that the laws of thermodynamics do!) Mike has offered Franklin as an example of a Zoped before (I remember once thinking that he directed it to ME as a way of getting ME to think a bit about listening to others on this list, but in fact he's used it in print on at least one occasion). Whenever he offers it, he does the exact opposite of what he usually does with xmca threads: instead of asking us to disentangle threads, he invites us to combine them. Franklin is learning (to listen to others). But he is also developing, on at least three counts: by learning to listen to others, he is acquiring new forms of meaning potential; by learning to recognize himself when it is "played back" to him, he is acquiring a new form of reflecting on experience; and (this is the one I really want to talk about) he is learning that play is not simply the manipulation of objects but also the manipulation of social roles according to abstract rules (such as reciprocity and mutuality). Now, you can see that I'm trying to disentangle things that are not really that distinct (reciprocity is really a form of serial mutuality, and both of them are simply abstract forms of listening to others). The Vygotsky lectures I'm working with are a little similar: in his work on the Crisis at Three (Franklin's Crisis, I suspect), he is trying to disentangle the "seven stars" of bad behaviour (folk concepts that nursemaids and mothers use--I notice there is even a Russian Wikipedia page!) from what he thinks is the key neoformation of Three, the separation of affect and will. For example, negativism is not just saying "no". It's saying "no" when the child really wants to say "yes", because although the child wants to say "yes", the others in the social milieu also want him to say "yes", and the child is more interested in self-assertion than in self-gratification. Obstinacy is not just tenacity. It's actually the negation of negativism: saying "yes" when the child really wants to "no", or maybe "who cares?", simply because the child has already said "yes" and once again the child is more interested in will than in affect. And so on. How is this connected with the next zone of development? Perhaps the next zone of development is preschool, and preschool depends on the separation of the semantic and the visio-graphic field of action in play. If so, Franklin's ability to interpret the teacher's imitation of his own actions is a "trailer" of that next zone of development and no mere act of learning. Or, maybe this is happening in a preschool, and the next zone of development is actually the Crisis at Seven. If so, Franklin's ability to recognize himself is a "trailer" of the next zone of development: acting a role that is not really a role, but in fact a prototype self. But that's my problem, Molly. What do I do when the prototype self comes to me from the past and not the future? Can we really call this development? Isn't it really a form of pathogenesis? David Kellogg Macquarie University On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:29 AM, molly shea wrote: > Dear Zaza and Mike, > > My apologies for entering the conversation on Kukiya-kiya late, however, > the article was so compelling I feel I should still enter. First, to Zaza, > thank you for writing such a forceful analysis of learning through > prototyping. I especially like the ways in which your analytical lens > included the political dimensions of problem solving and invoking > expertise. There are two ideas within the article that I hope to use and > extend in my work as well, and a question for Zaza, Mike, and others at the > end of my second musing. > > The first is your discussion of disinheritance as *an attention to > materials?a way of looking at materials that allows the beholder to > recognize transience, mutability, intermediateness?that allows Zimbabweans > to employ novel and unexpected ways to act within and around the > constraints of their material conditions.* By pointing out the separate > cognitive practice associated with seeing through disinheritance, the > analysis draws attention to the political dimension of learning. The > possible activities and therefore learning opportunities that arise through > this historical perception change and assumptions about designing learning > environments then shifts with these methods of seeing and using materials. > It also draws another potential distinction between the Maker Movement and > Kukiya?kiya. The Makers Movement doesn?t necessarily claim a political > agenda, however, by claiming something a-political or claiming an agenda of > advancing technological skills in the name of progress, it has a historical > and political situated set of values that may be in opposition to those of > Kukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material disinheritance arising > in the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? (2016) do > a wonderful job of pointing out many of the neoliberal consequences of a > maker movement that does not see the lineage of prototyping expertise > coming from many low-income communities living in ?tight circumstances?. > The power of the design of this prototyping project, for me, comes from > centering local expertise in the design of the learning environment. > Although prototyping is at the center of both ?making? and ?kukiya?kiya? > practices, it seems the political sense making between settings couldn?t be > more different. Even within the Zaza paper, the participants question how > invention might or might not lead to liberation. I appreciate Zaza's > attention to how participants questioned invention and business acumen as a > means to ?extricate Zimbabwe from its economic quandary?. A lesser > researcher may have ignored this comment as outside of the design process > and therefore the data set to be analyzed. > > The second idea, related to the political dimensions of cognition that are > often overlooked, is your analysis of gender and expertise in the design > process. I am struck by how the performance of gender and design-expertise > came in the form of whispers and informal conversations about hand-bags. It > would be great to have more analysis like this one where gender networks > inform design. In fact, it seems gender (man/woman/trans/other) is always > informing design, but perhaps performance of expertise that is cis-male is > sometimes confused with having expertise at all. You analysis offers more > nuance about other kinds of performance of expertise. I wonder if > discussions about hand-bags creates the intimacy necessary to share > female-cis gendered understandings of design problems. I would love to hear > your thinking on this matter. > > Again, thank you for your work and for the insights that this article has > provided me. > > - Molly Shea > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:46 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of Zaza's paper > > (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any time), I > > feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. > > > > I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, but as > life > > allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in at least > > some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. > > > > So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It addresses (I > > believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a child is "a > > head taller than herself." > > > > Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my > interpretation > > of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about the zoped > and > > play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic implications. > > > > See what you think. its 4 pages long. > > mike > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also be > a > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > evolution > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer than I > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good > > idea > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for "development" > > and > > > not for learning. > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the > what > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we are > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an interpersonal > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very often > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > > nothing > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > > Thirdly, > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before we > > go > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > > teaching > > > needs. > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", > > part > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > Collected > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > > ???????? > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > ???????????, > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????????? > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > > grouped > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > Consequently, > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > appointed > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > afterwards > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral lines > > of > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > > critical > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, > i.e. > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the child's > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > development, > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and learning. > > He > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid > it: > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie > that > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need > to > > do > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > . > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > component > > > > for sure. > > > > > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to > go > > > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development > > > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > > > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > > > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents > > > > many problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > > about. > > > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think > there > > > are > > > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of > > the > > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > think > > > the > > > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > > > picked > > > > up > > > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". > > But > > > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > > hasn't > > > > been > > > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > > > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by > the > > > > child > > > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just > too > > > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > > there > > > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > lectures, > > > but > > > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > interesting > > > > to > > > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > lectures: > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > > > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > 1998: > > > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > > > "test" > > > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > > > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > > > nonsense. > > > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > infinitely > > > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > mediation, > > > > can > > > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from > > its > > > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > > > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function > MUST > > > be > > > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. > > One > > > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply > that > > > the > > > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second > > does > > > > not. > > > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right > functional > > > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while > the > > > > other > > > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means > that > > > they > > > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot > > > > easier > > > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > > future > > > > are > > > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > > inversion > > > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future > is > > > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> David, > > > > >> > > > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a > > > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > urbanistic > > > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer > > > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that > > > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > challenge > > of > > > > >> oral utterances. > > > > >> > > > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words > > when > > > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > > > >> > > > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > > > linguistics or > > > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > > sociogenetic, > > > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > > article > > > > on > > > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would > > > help > > > > us > > > > >> to > > > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > microgenetic > > > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > around > > > > when > > > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > constant > > > > >> feature > > > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > associated > > > > with > > > > >> the > > > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > > > doesn't > > > > use > > > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > Lewin, > > > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to > use > > > the > > > > >> term > > > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > psychology > > > > and > > > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > > denounces > > > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > > Psychoneurology". I > > > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > external > > > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls > > his > > > > >> "micro" > > > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > > > biological, > > > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > > > particular > > > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > > > fidelity > > > > >> and > > > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she > sees > > > that > > > > >> her > > > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > > meaning. > > > > But > > > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > > > specific > > > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis > is > > > > what > > > > >> you > > > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > > > reading > > > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 14:24:15 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 14:24:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58069305.0138620a.31373.5708@mx.google.com> Mike, These 4 pages definitely capture the felt experience of how young students navigate classroom cultures or worlds. The situations Vivian Paley describes have an embodied felt sense of truth which she is reflecting upon through her way of understanding how to act and be a *teacher*. I will just outline some of the ways Vivian expresses her way of moving in this classroom world that jumped out for further reflection. *Vivian uses the notion of *style* in her comment, ?Perhaps, then, instead of steering robbers and superheros out of the classroom, I ought to help them improve their style.? *The girls understand what turns a guest into an intruder. The magic number is 3. One boy summoned into the doll corner is likely to co-operate. Two, [in certain known combinations] might still be manageable. # boys form a superhero *clique* and disrupt play. The rules of the doll corner are easy to understand. * the blocks corner, by contrast must share *unconnected* activities in the same space with the boundary lines fluidly changing. Vivian say a ? hour of constructive play in the blocks corner requires one or more of 3 conditions: socially mature players, or a plot strong enough to make role/pretend playing more important than covetousness, or the presence of *leaders* with good building skills. *Franklin, is described as displaying [and being] a particular *style*. He is able to capably apply his talents at the art table and wood bench where his style is the model of maturity. He performs his *self*-appointed tasks with such meticulous care that others watch and *copy* his displays. He displays intense concentration on *clearly defined* goals. And capably entices other boys into *work* projects. * Franklin?s style of competence and maturity does not transfer to the blocks corner. He becomes dictatorial and intolerant. His style of perfection rules out any notion of group participation. Anything less than total control is impossible for Franklin. *Franklin has this control in art construction, and superhero play, where others recognize his *expertise* and give him the final word. *The blocks corner calls forth other requirements as primary [democratic spirit] and Franklin does not [yet] have this capacity as an aspect of his style. *Vivian intercedes directly with Franklin *telling him* he is being very selfish and refers back to a morality tale [The Blue Seed]. However, the moral of the tale is of no concern to Franklin. The offending party never sees the connection to his own behavior [actions, gestures] in a morality play. The teacher then attempts being more explicit in drawing the connections also is ineffective. Her approach is *useless*. *what Franklin needs is an *objective* view of the scene he has played in the blocks corner. The morality story is too *abstract* and direct criticism too personal. Storyplays come to Vivian?s mind. *Storyplays begin with ?once upon a time there was a boy named Franklin ?. Vivian *pretends* to be Franklin displaying his *style* [his way of gesturing] Franklin, watching this unfold pounds his thigh and laughs, announcing ?That?s me! You?re pretending to be me. Is that really me?? This is the moment of awakening, to being a head taller. The teacher?s *response*: ?It really IS you. I watched you in the blocks,. That?s the way you sounded. REMEMBER?? Franklin?s *response*: ?I do REMEMBER. You did that part just right.? [with fidelity in Franklin?s eyes] Summary comment: The moment Vivian made Franklin the star in his own story, he is flattered AND ATTENTIVE. He is not offended. Mike, I laid out the moves in this way to emphasize the *gestures* that were on display throughout. The reflections [and remembering] seem secondary, not primary. I will pause here Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: mike cole Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 5:49 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of Zaza's paper (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any time), I feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, but as life allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in at least some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It addresses (I believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a child is "a head taller than herself." Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my interpretation of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about the zoped and play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic implications. See what you think. its 4 pages long. mike On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Arturo: > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also be a > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal evolution > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer than I > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good idea > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for "development" and > not for learning. > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the what > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we are > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an interpersonal > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very often > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have nothing > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. Thirdly, > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before we go > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our teaching > needs. > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", part > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the Collected > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? ???????? > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? ???????????, > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????????? > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be grouped > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. Consequently, > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this appointed > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear afterwards > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral lines of > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the critical > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, i.e. > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the child's > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual development, > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and learning. He > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid it: > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie that > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need to do > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > . > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning component > > for sure. > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to go > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents > > many problems. > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg wrote: > > > Arturo: > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking about. > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think there > are > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of the > > ZPD. > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I think > the > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > picked > > up > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". But > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there hasn't > > been > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by the > > child > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just too > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, there > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological lectures, > but > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's interesting > > to > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological lectures: > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, 1998: > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > "test" > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > nonsense. > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is infinitely > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of mediation, > > can > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from its > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function MUST > be > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. One > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply that > the > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second does > > not. > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right functional > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while the > > other > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means that > they > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot > > easier > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the future > > are > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > inversion > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future is > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> David, > > >> > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to urbanistic > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual challenge of > > >> oral utterances. > > >> > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words when > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > >> > > >> Best > > >> > > >> > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > >> > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > wrote: > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > linguistics or > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > sociogenetic, > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful article > > on > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would > help > > us > > >> to > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and microgenetic > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > >> > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was around > > when > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a constant > > >> feature > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly associated > > with > > >> the > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > doesn't > > use > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > >> > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, Lewin, > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use > the > > >> term > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi psychology > > and > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, denounces > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > Psychoneurology". I > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > >> > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls his > > >> "micro" > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > biological, > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > particular > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > fidelity > > >> and > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees > that > > >> her > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > >> > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual meaning. > > But > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > specific > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis is > > what > > >> you > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > reading > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > >> > > > >> > David Kellogg > > >> > Macquarie University > > >> > > >> > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 08:47:03 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 08:47:03 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5807957c.81c1620a.e3ea1.0c6d@mx.google.com> David, You interpret Mike as offering to explore Franklin existing within a zoped that may be a way of entangling or intertwining with Zaza?s prototyping thread. Each may have something to say focusing on *learning* *development* and generating *meaning*. You focused on what do persons do when their higher mental functions begin to break down (is the blocks corner of Vivian?s classroom an example IF democractic spirit breaks down?) the setting or situation is not as *developed* and is more free form requiring difeerent developmental *capacity* and *styles* (Vivian?s terms for character formation). David, your invitation to entangle and intertwine these two threads is inviting an opening and I am curious if others will meet you in this place which Mike was gesturing toward. Still wandering and wondering with others Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: David Kellogg Sent: October 18, 2016 1:17 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? Mike likes a discussion to be, as Bernstein put it, well framed and well classified; or at least he likes the threads to be well disentangled and properly subject lined. But perhaps we shouldn't give up on the "The Prototyping Mind" too quickly! As you can see from Molly's careful perusal and forceful restatement of Zaza's major themes, there is still a lot in Zaza's prototyping bin to talk about. The one that interests me, that I think is relevant to the "microgenesis" thread, is what learning means when it means adapting to anti-development. For example, there are undoubtedly work-arounds that people use when their higher psychological functions start to shut down (I watched my mother do quite a few of these, addressing everyone as "you" instead of using names, reacting to novel situations with a delight which effectively hides her astonishment, and above all refraining from trying to understand the reasons for present situations). Similarly, there are ontogenetic work-arounds that people use when commodity production shuts down. But in both cases, we have a kind of development which forgoes time's arrow; we have a notion of development that works backwards and forwards (like the laws of physics as opposed to the laws of thermodynamics). I won't say that suggests relativism (that would be, I think, too moralistic an argument, and it is a rabbit hole we have been down already anyway). But it suggests an atomism that I disagree with (in addition to eschewing time, the laws of physics don't combine matter and meaning the way that the laws of thermodynamics do!) Mike has offered Franklin as an example of a Zoped before (I remember once thinking that he directed it to ME as a way of getting ME to think a bit about listening to others on this list, but in fact he's used it in print on at least one occasion). Whenever he offers it, he does the exact opposite of what he usually does with xmca threads: instead of asking us to disentangle threads, he invites us to combine them. Franklin is learning (to listen to others). But he is also developing, on at least three counts: by learning to listen to others, he is acquiring new forms of meaning potential; by learning to recognize himself when it is "played back" to him, he is acquiring a new form of reflecting on experience; and (this is the one I really want to talk about) he is learning that play is not simply the manipulation of objects but also the manipulation of social roles according to abstract rules (such as reciprocity and mutuality). Now, you can see that I'm trying to disentangle things that are not really that distinct (reciprocity is really a form of serial mutuality, and both of them are simply abstract forms of listening to others). The Vygotsky lectures I'm working with are a little similar: in his work on the Crisis at Three (Franklin's Crisis, I suspect), he is trying to disentangle the "seven stars" of bad behaviour (folk concepts that nursemaids and mothers use--I notice there is even a Russian Wikipedia page!) from what he thinks is the key neoformation of Three, the separation of affect and will. For example, negativism is not just saying "no". It's saying "no" when the child really wants to say "yes", because although the child wants to say "yes", the others in the social milieu also want him to say "yes", and the child is more interested in self-assertion than in self-gratification. Obstinacy is not just tenacity. It's actually the negation of negativism: saying "yes" when the child really wants to "no", or maybe "who cares?", simply because the child has already said "yes" and once again the child is more interested in will than in affect. And so on. How is this connected with the next zone of development? Perhaps the next zone of development is preschool, and preschool depends on the separation of the semantic and the visio-graphic field of action in play. If so, Franklin's ability to interpret the teacher's imitation of his own actions is a "trailer" of that next zone of development and no mere act of learning. Or, maybe this is happening in a preschool, and the next zone of development is actually the Crisis at Seven. If so, Franklin's ability to recognize himself is a "trailer" of the next zone of development: acting a role that is not really a role, but in fact a prototype self. But that's my problem, Molly. What do I do when the prototype self comes to me from the past and not the future? Can we really call this development? Isn't it really a form of pathogenesis? David Kellogg Macquarie University On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:29 AM, molly shea wrote: > Dear Zaza and Mike, > > My apologies for entering the conversation on Kukiya-kiya late, however, > the article was so compelling I feel I should still enter. First, to Zaza, > thank you for writing such a forceful analysis of learning through > prototyping. I especially like the ways in which your analytical lens > included the political dimensions of problem solving and invoking > expertise. There are two ideas within the article that I hope to use and > extend in my work as well, and a question for Zaza, Mike, and others at the > end of my second musing. > > The first is your discussion of disinheritance as *an attention to > materials?a way of looking at materials that allows the beholder to > recognize transience, mutability, intermediateness?that allows Zimbabweans > to employ novel and unexpected ways to act within and around the > constraints of their material conditions.* By pointing out the separate > cognitive practice associated with seeing through disinheritance, the > analysis draws attention to the political dimension of learning. The > possible activities and therefore learning opportunities that arise through > this historical perception change and assumptions about designing learning > environments then shifts with these methods of seeing and using materials. > It also draws another potential distinction between the Maker Movement and > Kukiya?kiya. The Makers Movement doesn?t necessarily claim a political > agenda, however, by claiming something a-political or claiming an agenda of > advancing technological skills in the name of progress, it has a historical > and political situated set of values that may be in opposition to those of > Kukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material disinheritance arising > in the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? (2016) do > a wonderful job of pointing out many of the neoliberal consequences of a > maker movement that does not see the lineage of prototyping expertise > coming from many low-income communities living in ?tight circumstances?. > The power of the design of this prototyping project, for me, comes from > centering local expertise in the design of the learning environment. > Although prototyping is at the center of both ?making? and ?kukiya?kiya? > practices, it seems the political sense making between settings couldn?t be > more different. Even within the Zaza paper, the participants question how > invention might or might not lead to liberation. I appreciate Zaza's > attention to how participants questioned invention and business acumen as a > means to ?extricate Zimbabwe from its economic quandary?. A lesser > researcher may have ignored this comment as outside of the design process > and therefore the data set to be analyzed. > > The second idea, related to the political dimensions of cognition that are > often overlooked, is your analysis of gender and expertise in the design > process. I am struck by how the performance of gender and design-expertise > came in the form of whispers and informal conversations about hand-bags. It > would be great to have more analysis like this one where gender networks > inform design. In fact, it seems gender (man/woman/trans/other) is always > informing design, but perhaps performance of expertise that is cis-male is > sometimes confused with having expertise at all. You analysis offers more > nuance about other kinds of performance of expertise. I wonder if > discussions about hand-bags creates the intimacy necessary to share > female-cis gendered understandings of design problems. I would love to hear > your thinking on this matter. > > Again, thank you for your work and for the insights that this article has > provided me. > > - Molly Shea > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:46 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of Zaza's paper > > (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any time), I > > feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. > > > > I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, but as > life > > allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in at least > > some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. > > > > So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It addresses (I > > believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a child is "a > > head taller than herself." > > > > Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my > interpretation > > of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about the zoped > and > > play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic implications. > > > > See what you think. its 4 pages long. > > mike > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also be > a > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > evolution > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer than I > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good > > idea > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for "development" > > and > > > not for learning. > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the > what > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we are > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an interpersonal > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very often > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > > nothing > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > > Thirdly, > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before we > > go > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > > teaching > > > needs. > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", > > part > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > Collected > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > > ???????? > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > ???????????, > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????????? > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > > grouped > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > Consequently, > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > appointed > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > afterwards > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral lines > > of > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > > critical > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, > i.e. > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the child's > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > development, > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and learning. > > He > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid > it: > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie > that > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need > to > > do > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > . > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > component > > > > for sure. > > > > > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to > go > > > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development > > > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > > > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > > > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents > > > > many problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > > about. > > > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think > there > > > are > > > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of > > the > > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > think > > > the > > > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > > > picked > > > > up > > > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". > > But > > > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > > hasn't > > > > been > > > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > > > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by > the > > > > child > > > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just > too > > > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > > there > > > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > lectures, > > > but > > > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > interesting > > > > to > > > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > lectures: > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > > > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > 1998: > > > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > > > "test" > > > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > > > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > > > nonsense. > > > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > infinitely > > > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > mediation, > > > > can > > > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from > > its > > > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > > > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function > MUST > > > be > > > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. > > One > > > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply > that > > > the > > > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second > > does > > > > not. > > > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right > functional > > > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while > the > > > > other > > > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means > that > > > they > > > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot > > > > easier > > > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > > future > > > > are > > > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > > inversion > > > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future > is > > > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> David, > > > > >> > > > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a > > > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > urbanistic > > > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer > > > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that > > > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > challenge > > of > > > > >> oral utterances. > > > > >> > > > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words > > when > > > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > > > >> > > > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > > > linguistics or > > > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > > sociogenetic, > > > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > > article > > > > on > > > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would > > > help > > > > us > > > > >> to > > > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > microgenetic > > > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > around > > > > when > > > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > constant > > > > >> feature > > > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > associated > > > > with > > > > >> the > > > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > > > doesn't > > > > use > > > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > Lewin, > > > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to > use > > > the > > > > >> term > > > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > psychology > > > > and > > > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > > denounces > > > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > > Psychoneurology". I > > > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > external > > > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls > > his > > > > >> "micro" > > > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > > > biological, > > > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > > > particular > > > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > > > fidelity > > > > >> and > > > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she > sees > > > that > > > > >> her > > > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > > meaning. > > > > But > > > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > > > specific > > > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis > is > > > > what > > > > >> you > > > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > > > reading > > > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 09:13:25 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 09:13:25 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decolonising science/maths In-Reply-To: References: <5803cad9.4482620a.3890b.c365@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <58079baa.81c1620a.e3ea1.117f@mx.google.com> Ed, I agree with you as you say a space opens up that we can call *studying* and teachers by opening this particular space (the studying place) make it possible for students to study. The other article by Vivian Pauley may overlap this insight which is significant and meaningful. You then mention what teachers bring to this emerging study place: Content knowledge area knowledge and content pedagogical knowledge. These higher level *intended* knowledges are carried into this zoped. However there may be multiple internationaly of actions/gestures beyond and in excess of knowledges occurring in these studying places emerging into place. What Kym Maclaren is focussing attention on is the INEVITABILITY of situating others in particular ways within these forming places through our actions/gestures. These gestures (intentional actions) at the pre-verbal gestural level of *being-with* others are also significant intentional meaning generating aspects of the emerging studying situation. The *slowing down* of the way the teacher proceeds, either in mathematics learning or Franklin learning *democractic spirit* was expressing this gestural aspect of the emerging studying *place* through the way the teacher *approaches* or *orients* toward the (subject matter at hand). Others call this objectives. Shifting to the Vivian Pauley thread we may further reflect on these developing themes Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Edward Wall Sent: October 17, 2016 4:37 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decolonising science/maths Larry The example is nice, but it misses the point. Unless one believes in some sort of transmission theory of knowledge, expertise doesn?t have much to do with teaching or, necessarily, learning. One might say, in fact, there is a space which teacher and learner inhabit called ?studying? and teachers, in effect, make it possible for students to study and hence learn (something only they can do). Some have postulated there is, in fact, two sort of expertise that teachers need: content area knowledge and pedagogical content knowledge (and going slower isn?t at the top of the list). Not in defense of bad mathematics teaching, but mathematicians, normally, do not ?study? how to teach mathematics nor do they, normally, experience in their own learning teachers who have ?studied? mathematics teaching in a substantial fashion. This has nothing to do with ?dead white males?, but with living conceptions of teaching among which the myth of the sufficiency of expertise is paramount. In any case the link that was sent appears to be something written by a person who is firmly against decolonizing mathematics or did I miss something? Ed > On Oct 16, 2016, at 1:45 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > > Mary, > Thanks for posting this thought provoking article on learning and being solicited into becoming an *expert*. > > I want to share a view on expertise through a Merleau-Pontian lens as portrayed in an article written by Kym Maclaren. > > Actions (gestures in M-P frames) intend meanings in the world. Equally the intended meanings also develop meaningful *places* of the selves involved in generating these intended meanings. > For example: > > The action (gestures) of someone who takes himself to be a specialist or *expert* and prides himself on being able to do things that others are not capable of doing. Let us say an expert sailor demonstrates his expertise at tying special knots swiftly and efficiently ? he MARKS HIMSELF OUT as an expert through his gestures. Tying the knot so quickly, so deftly, that we, the onlookers are left out of the process and experience only the beginning rope and the end product. The experts gestures seem to us, then, to be marvelous, magic, and beyond our ken. He is thereby *set out* as the *solitary expert* with an *in* on this other world, and we onlookers are correlatively *set out* as the excluded, the non-participants. > > Our experience is very different on the other hand, when this expert *takes it upon himself* to teach us to tie these special knots. All of a sudden this mysterious, magical process is opened up to us. > > The moves (gestures) ? though still the same in their basic outline ? are slowed down and exaggerated, presented on a larger scale, and we find ourselves drawn into the actions (gestures). As beginners to be sure, clumsy, awkward, and unsure of what we are doing ? but as participants nonetheless. > > By virtue of slowing down his gestures and opening the gestures up to us the expert *communicates* in his gestures a place for us as learners AND he attributes to himself the identity (the place) of being a teacher. He *makes room* for us in THIS world and treats us as people who could, in principle (in potential) have an *in* on this mutual world while simultaneously treating himself as someone *who shares a world* with us and can on the BASIS OF THIS SHARING, help us to find our way into this *particular* reality. > > I could add commentary but will let this presentation from Kym Maclaren speak for itself. > Mary, > This presentation creates a felt-imaginative experience of *expertise* to juxtapose with the article you posted. > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Mary van der Riet > Sent: October 16, 2016 7:42 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Subject: [Xmca-l] decolonising science/maths > > > South African education is in a really difficult place it the moment. Its difficult to know where the tensions and disruptions will end, and how, if at all one can play a constructive role. > One of the debates is about the need to 'decolonise' education, including science/maths. This call by students has been met with derision and disrespect. > One of the few bits of sense about this decolonising has drawn on some cultural-historical philosophy > see > > http://theconversation.com/yes-mathematics-can-be-decolonised-heres-how-to-begin-65963?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%205808&utm_content=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%205808+CID_4eb3c8c0d6199c16245de6a1ef60f7cb&utm_source=campaign_monitor_africa&utm_term=Yes%20mathematics%20can%20be%20decolonised%20Heres%20how%20to%20begin > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 19 10:16:18 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 10:16:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Molly- The linking of the local prototyping activity to its socio-cultural-economic context (everywhere!) seems a topic worth pursuing. (*historical* *and political situated set of values that may be in opposition to those ofKukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material disinheritance arisingin the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? (2016) * ?I have not seen that paper, but will write and ask Shirin if it is possible to post a copy to xmca. Might we start a new thread, Protyping, where we could explore these issues? They seem VERY relevant to the current work of many on xmca. Thought provoking. mike? On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 12:29 PM, molly shea wrote: > Dear Zaza and Mike, > > My apologies for entering the conversation on Kukiya-kiya late, however, > the article was so compelling I feel I should still enter. First, to Zaza, > thank you for writing such a forceful analysis of learning through > prototyping. I especially like the ways in which your analytical lens > included the political dimensions of problem solving and invoking > expertise. There are two ideas within the article that I hope to use and > extend in my work as well, and a question for Zaza, Mike, and others at the > end of my second musing. > > The first is your discussion of disinheritance as *an attention to > materials?a way of looking at materials that allows the beholder to > recognize transience, mutability, intermediateness?that allows Zimbabweans > to employ novel and unexpected ways to act within and around the > constraints of their material conditions.* By pointing out the separate > cognitive practice associated with seeing through disinheritance, the > analysis draws attention to the political dimension of learning. The > possible activities and therefore learning opportunities that arise through > this historical perception change and assumptions about designing learning > environments then shifts with these methods of seeing and using materials. > It also draws another potential distinction between the Maker Movement and > Kukiya?kiya. The Makers Movement doesn?t necessarily claim a political > agenda, however, by claiming something a-political or claiming an agenda of > advancing technological skills in the name of progress, it has a historical > and political situated set of values that may be in opposition to those of > Kukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material disinheritance arising > in the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? (2016) do > a wonderful job of pointing out many of the neoliberal consequences of a > maker movement that does not see the lineage of prototyping expertise > coming from many low-income communities living in ?tight circumstances?. > The power of the design of this prototyping project, for me, comes from > centering local expertise in the design of the learning environment. > Although prototyping is at the center of both ?making? and ?kukiya?kiya? > practices, it seems the political sense making between settings couldn?t be > more different. Even within the Zaza paper, the participants question how > invention might or might not lead to liberation. I appreciate Zaza's > attention to how participants questioned invention and business acumen as a > means to ?extricate Zimbabwe from its economic quandary?. A lesser > researcher may have ignored this comment as outside of the design process > and therefore the data set to be analyzed. > > The second idea, related to the political dimensions of cognition that are > often overlooked, is your analysis of gender and expertise in the design > process. I am struck by how the performance of gender and design-expertise > came in the form of whispers and informal conversations about hand-bags. It > would be great to have more analysis like this one where gender networks > inform design. In fact, it seems gender (man/woman/trans/other) is always > informing design, but perhaps performance of expertise that is cis-male is > sometimes confused with having expertise at all. You analysis offers more > nuance about other kinds of performance of expertise. I wonder if > discussions about hand-bags creates the intimacy necessary to share > female-cis gendered understandings of design problems. I would love to hear > your thinking on this matter. > > Again, thank you for your work and for the insights that this article has > provided me. > > - Molly Shea > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:46 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of Zaza's paper > > (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any time), I > > feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. > > > > I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, but as > life > > allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in at least > > some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. > > > > So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It addresses (I > > believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a child is "a > > head taller than herself." > > > > Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my > interpretation > > of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about the zoped > and > > play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic implications. > > > > See what you think. its 4 pages long. > > mike > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also be > a > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > evolution > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer than I > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good > > idea > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for "development" > > and > > > not for learning. > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the > what > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we are > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an interpersonal > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very often > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > > nothing > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > > Thirdly, > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before we > > go > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > > teaching > > > needs. > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", > > part > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > Collected > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > > ???????? > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > ???????????, > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????????? > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > > grouped > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > Consequently, > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > appointed > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > afterwards > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral lines > > of > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > > critical > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, > i.e. > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the child's > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > development, > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and learning. > > He > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid > it: > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie > that > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need > to > > do > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > . > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > component > > > > for sure. > > > > > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to > go > > > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development > > > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > > > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > > > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents > > > > many problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > > about. > > > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think > there > > > are > > > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of > > the > > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > think > > > the > > > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > > > picked > > > > up > > > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". > > But > > > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > > hasn't > > > > been > > > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > > > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by > the > > > > child > > > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just > too > > > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > > there > > > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > lectures, > > > but > > > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > interesting > > > > to > > > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > lectures: > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > > > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > 1998: > > > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > > > "test" > > > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > > > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > > > nonsense. > > > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > infinitely > > > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > mediation, > > > > can > > > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from > > its > > > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > > > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function > MUST > > > be > > > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. > > One > > > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply > that > > > the > > > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second > > does > > > > not. > > > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right > functional > > > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while > the > > > > other > > > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means > that > > > they > > > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot > > > > easier > > > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > > future > > > > are > > > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > > inversion > > > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future > is > > > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> David, > > > > >> > > > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a > > > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > urbanistic > > > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer > > > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that > > > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > challenge > > of > > > > >> oral utterances. > > > > >> > > > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words > > when > > > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > > > >> > > > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > > > linguistics or > > > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > > sociogenetic, > > > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > > article > > > > on > > > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would > > > help > > > > us > > > > >> to > > > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > microgenetic > > > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > around > > > > when > > > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > constant > > > > >> feature > > > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > associated > > > > with > > > > >> the > > > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > > > doesn't > > > > use > > > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > Lewin, > > > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to > use > > > the > > > > >> term > > > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > psychology > > > > and > > > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > > denounces > > > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > > Psychoneurology". I > > > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > external > > > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls > > his > > > > >> "micro" > > > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > > > biological, > > > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > > > particular > > > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > > > fidelity > > > > >> and > > > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she > sees > > > that > > > > >> her > > > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > > meaning. > > > > But > > > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > > > specific > > > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis > is > > > > what > > > > >> you > > > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > > > reading > > > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 19 10:49:27 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 10:49:27 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Prototyping Message-ID: For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on Kukiya kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I suggest a new thread with the title, prototyping. Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by Molly. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Vossoughi Hooper Escude_Making & Equity_2016.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 206554 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161019/074c81b9/attachment.pdf From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 10:58:10 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 11:58:10 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve and it seems relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. It is in response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other languages: A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I should add that this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a little bit clumsy assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat derisive way to refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat different from other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and haste and clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has something to do with the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" manufacture in the U.S. And, I wonder if this might have something to do with different cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. kukiya-kiya. Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker movement has more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to recover one's creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx reference (and Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a kukiya-kiya attempt to make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that they certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation of necessity and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see there on the ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? Or if this distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there actually both things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy in creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! Very best, greg On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole wrote: > For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on Kukiya > kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I suggest a > new thread with the title, prototyping. > > Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by Molly. > > mike > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 19 11:17:07 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 11:17:07 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David - I think it is unfortunate to link workarounds with a loss of higher psychological functions. Again, it seems like ontogeny recapitulates history. The end of ontogeny is death. Ditto history? By any account I can think of, your mother is using higher higher psychological functions to work around the inability to retrieve vocabulary at a conventional level of abstraction. I am of an age where the same problem can be noticed. Nice that I can, for the time being, understand enough to be able to study development in decline in real life in addition to experiencing it. Hmm, that means I have some higher higher functions to draw upon! In our own work, the workarounds needed to solve the failure of a gifted, "promising" technology under high pressure to succeed created both a successful product and resulted in productive education for all involved. To me, a great example of pathogenisis is the use of the highly developed, highly admired, highly financed, digital technologies of cyberspace. Clearly an advance over atomic bombs- cleaner, faster, more efficient. Where I think there is something distinctly unusual in Zaza's prototyping example is that the prototyping itself, even if it had been accomplishable easily with strong technological/resource backing, is a work around for the inability to confront directly the cultural beliefs that make it shameful for a woman with HIV to bottle feed her baby. We rarely discuss the power of cultural norms in constraining cultural change even when the current practices threaten reproduction of the social group. It seems, perhaps, an intractable problem. The US appears unable to give up on putting water in disposable plastic bottles. Pathogenesis? I'll follow my habit of sorting things out by responding vis a vis Franklin in Larry's note below. I will respond on a thread called microgenesis/ontogenesis. Compensatorily yours. mike On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:15 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Mike likes a discussion to be, as Bernstein put it, well framed and well > classified; or at least he likes the threads to be well disentangled and > properly subject lined. But perhaps we shouldn't give up on the "The > Prototyping Mind" too quickly! As you can see from Molly's careful perusal > and forceful restatement of Zaza's major themes, there is still a lot in > Zaza's prototyping bin to talk about. > > The one that interests me, that I think is relevant to the "microgenesis" > thread, is what learning means when it means adapting to anti-development. > For example, there are undoubtedly work-arounds that people use when their > higher psychological functions start to shut down (I watched my mother do > quite a few of these, addressing everyone as "you" instead of using names, > reacting to novel situations with a delight which effectively hides her > astonishment, and above all refraining from trying to understand the > reasons for present situations). > > Similarly, there are ontogenetic work-arounds that people use when > commodity production shuts down. But in both cases, we have a kind of > development which forgoes time's arrow; we have a notion of development > that works backwards and forwards (like the laws of physics as opposed to > the laws of thermodynamics). I won't say that suggests relativism (that > would be, I think, too moralistic an argument, and it is a rabbit hole we > have been down already anyway). But it suggests an atomism that I disagree > with (in addition to eschewing time, the laws of physics don't combine > matter and meaning the way that the laws of thermodynamics do!) > > Mike has offered Franklin as an example of a Zoped before (I remember once > thinking that he directed it to ME as a way of getting ME to think a bit > about listening to others on this list, but in fact he's used it in print > on at least one occasion). Whenever he offers it, he does the exact > opposite of what he usually does with xmca threads: instead of asking us to > disentangle threads, he invites us to combine them. Franklin is learning > (to listen to others). But he is also developing, on at least three counts: > by learning to listen to others, he is acquiring new forms of meaning > potential; by learning to recognize himself when it is "played back" to > him, he is acquiring a new form of reflecting on experience; and (this is > the one I really want to talk about) he is learning that play is not simply > the manipulation of objects but also the manipulation of social roles > according to abstract rules (such as reciprocity and mutuality). > > Now, you can see that I'm trying to disentangle things that are not really > that distinct (reciprocity is really a form of serial mutuality, and both > of them are simply abstract forms of listening to others). The Vygotsky > lectures I'm working with are a little similar: in his work on the Crisis > at Three (Franklin's Crisis, I suspect), he is trying to disentangle the > "seven stars" of bad behaviour (folk concepts that nursemaids and mothers > use--I notice there is even a Russian Wikipedia page!) from what he thinks > is the key neoformation of Three, the separation of affect and will. > > For example, negativism is not just saying "no". It's saying "no" when the > child really wants to say "yes", because although the child wants to say > "yes", the others in the social milieu also want him to say "yes", and the > child is more interested in self-assertion than in self-gratification. > Obstinacy is not just tenacity. It's actually the negation of negativism: > saying "yes" when the child really wants to "no", or maybe "who cares?", > simply because the child has already said "yes" and once again the child is > more interested in will than in affect. And so on. > > How is this connected with the next zone of development? Perhaps the next > zone of development is preschool, and preschool depends on the separation > of the semantic and the visio-graphic field of action in play. If so, > Franklin's ability to interpret the teacher's imitation of his own actions > is a "trailer" of that next zone of development and no mere act of > learning. Or, maybe this is happening in a preschool, and the next zone of > development is actually the Crisis at Seven. If so, Franklin's ability to > recognize himself is a "trailer" of the next zone of development: acting a > role that is not really a role, but in fact a prototype self. > > But that's my problem, Molly. What do I do when the prototype self comes to > me from the past and not the future? Can we really call this development? > Isn't it really a form of pathogenesis? > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:29 AM, molly shea wrote: > > > Dear Zaza and Mike, > > > > My apologies for entering the conversation on Kukiya-kiya late, however, > > the article was so compelling I feel I should still enter. First, to > Zaza, > > thank you for writing such a forceful analysis of learning through > > prototyping. I especially like the ways in which your analytical lens > > included the political dimensions of problem solving and invoking > > expertise. There are two ideas within the article that I hope to use and > > extend in my work as well, and a question for Zaza, Mike, and others at > the > > end of my second musing. > > > > The first is your discussion of disinheritance as *an attention to > > materials?a way of looking at materials that allows the beholder to > > recognize transience, mutability, intermediateness?that allows > Zimbabweans > > to employ novel and unexpected ways to act within and around the > > constraints of their material conditions.* By pointing out the separate > > cognitive practice associated with seeing through disinheritance, the > > analysis draws attention to the political dimension of learning. The > > possible activities and therefore learning opportunities that arise > through > > this historical perception change and assumptions about designing > learning > > environments then shifts with these methods of seeing and using > materials. > > It also draws another potential distinction between the Maker Movement > and > > Kukiya?kiya. The Makers Movement doesn?t necessarily claim a political > > agenda, however, by claiming something a-political or claiming an agenda > of > > advancing technological skills in the name of progress, it has a > historical > > and political situated set of values that may be in opposition to those > of > > Kukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material disinheritance > arising > > in the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? (2016) > do > > a wonderful job of pointing out many of the neoliberal consequences of a > > maker movement that does not see the lineage of prototyping expertise > > coming from many low-income communities living in ?tight circumstances?. > > The power of the design of this prototyping project, for me, comes from > > centering local expertise in the design of the learning environment. > > Although prototyping is at the center of both ?making? and ?kukiya?kiya? > > practices, it seems the political sense making between settings couldn?t > be > > more different. Even within the Zaza paper, the participants question how > > invention might or might not lead to liberation. I appreciate Zaza's > > attention to how participants questioned invention and business acumen > as a > > means to ?extricate Zimbabwe from its economic quandary?. A lesser > > researcher may have ignored this comment as outside of the design process > > and therefore the data set to be analyzed. > > > > The second idea, related to the political dimensions of cognition that > are > > often overlooked, is your analysis of gender and expertise in the design > > process. I am struck by how the performance of gender and > design-expertise > > came in the form of whispers and informal conversations about hand-bags. > It > > would be great to have more analysis like this one where gender networks > > inform design. In fact, it seems gender (man/woman/trans/other) is always > > informing design, but perhaps performance of expertise that is cis-male > is > > sometimes confused with having expertise at all. You analysis offers more > > nuance about other kinds of performance of expertise. I wonder if > > discussions about hand-bags creates the intimacy necessary to share > > female-cis gendered understandings of design problems. I would love to > hear > > your thinking on this matter. > > > > Again, thank you for your work and for the insights that this article has > > provided me. > > > > - Molly Shea > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:46 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of Zaza's paper > > > (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any time), I > > > feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. > > > > > > I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, but as > > life > > > allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in at > least > > > some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. > > > > > > So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It addresses (I > > > believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a child is > "a > > > head taller than herself." > > > > > > Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my > > interpretation > > > of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about the zoped > > and > > > play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic implications. > > > > > > See what you think. its 4 pages long. > > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also > be > > a > > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > > evolution > > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer > than I > > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good > > > idea > > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for > "development" > > > and > > > > not for learning. > > > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the > > what > > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we > are > > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an > interpersonal > > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very > often > > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > > > nothing > > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > > > Thirdly, > > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before > we > > > go > > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > > > teaching > > > > needs. > > > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", > > > part > > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > > Collected > > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > > > ???????? > > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > > ???????????, > > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? > ?????????? > > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > > > grouped > > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > > Consequently, > > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > > appointed > > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > > afterwards > > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral > lines > > > of > > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > > > critical > > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, > > i.e. > > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the > child's > > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > > development, > > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and > learning. > > > He > > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid > > it: > > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie > > that > > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need > > to > > > do > > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > . > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > > > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > > > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > > > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > > component > > > > > for sure. > > > > > > > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to > > go > > > > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of > development > > > > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > > > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > > > > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > > > > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > > > > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature > presents > > > > > many problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > > > about. > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think > > there > > > > are > > > > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion > of > > > the > > > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > > think > > > > the > > > > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > > > > picked > > > > > up > > > > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of > development". > > > But > > > > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > > > hasn't > > > > > been > > > > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the > idea > > > > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by > > the > > > > > child > > > > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just > > too > > > > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > > > there > > > > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > > > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > > lectures, > > > > but > > > > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > > interesting > > > > > to > > > > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > > lectures: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > > 1998: > > > > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > > > > "test" > > > > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" > with > > > > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > > > > nonsense. > > > > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > > > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > > infinitely > > > > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > > mediation, > > > > > can > > > > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted > from > > > its > > > > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: > for > > > > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function > > MUST > > > > be > > > > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two > children. > > > One > > > > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply > > that > > > > the > > > > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second > > > does > > > > > not. > > > > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right > > functional > > > > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while > > the > > > > > other > > > > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > > > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means > > that > > > > they > > > > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole > lot > > > > > easier > > > > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > > > future > > > > > are > > > > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > > > inversion > > > > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future > > is > > > > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> David, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to > spot a > > > > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > > urbanistic > > > > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no > longer > > > > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to > that > > > > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > > challenge > > > of > > > > > >> oral utterances. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > > > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words > > > when > > > > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > > > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Best > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > > > > linguistics or > > > > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > > > sociogenetic, > > > > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > > > article > > > > > on > > > > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it > would > > > > help > > > > > us > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > > microgenetic > > > > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > > around > > > > > when > > > > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > > constant > > > > > >> feature > > > > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > > associated > > > > > with > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > > > > doesn't > > > > > use > > > > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > > Lewin, > > > > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to > > use > > > > the > > > > > >> term > > > > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > > psychology > > > > > and > > > > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > > > denounces > > > > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > > > Psychoneurology". I > > > > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > > external > > > > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", > calls > > > his > > > > > >> "micro" > > > > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > > > > biological, > > > > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > > > > particular > > > > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > > > > fidelity > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she > > sees > > > > that > > > > > >> her > > > > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > > > meaning. > > > > > But > > > > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > > > > specific > > > > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. > Microgenesis > > is > > > > > what > > > > > >> you > > > > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > > > > reading > > > > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 19 11:52:46 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 11:52:46 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] microgenesis/ontogeny Message-ID: Hi Larry- I have not thought about Franklin in terms of style and gesture. I see what you mean by talking about his style in the following paragraph: **Franklin, is described as displaying [and being] a particular *style*. He is able to capably apply his talents at the art table and wood bench where his style is the model of maturity. He performs his *self*-appointed tasks with such meticulous care that others watch and *copy* his displays. He displays intense concentration on *clearly defined* goals. And capably entices other boys into *work* projects.* I think it is the SELF appointed tasks that is key here and that the art projects, as they are organized in that classroom. I would add superhero fantasy play as another area of artistic/play engagement to that list because it is a group activity, but one in which his style, as you call it, is consistant with local norms. But in the blocks, as both you and Paley point out, the norms conflict with his style. And under normal circumstances, he does not, himself, recognize that his behavior is anti-social. He genuinely does not understand why kids flee him when he bosses them around, unable to enter into his unarticulated/unarticulatable notions of THE right way to build the structure. He cannot remember any episodes where he drove kids away, even right after the event. **what Franklin needs is an *objective* view of the scene he has played in the blocks corner. The morality story is too *abstract* and direct criticism too personal. Storyplays come to Vivian?s mind.* I am not sure of the meaning of objective here, but I am guessing that it means embodiment of his behavior in the acted out scene. Assuming so, a couple of comments. Firstly, Paley routinely uses fables in her classroom and the children appear to understand them judged by the interesting discussions that follow. So they are not in general "too abstract for 4-5 year olds. And secondly, storyplays are central to the entire curriculum, so she knows that Franklin and the other children will appreciate the event. *Storyplays begin with ?once upon a time there was a boy named Franklin ?. Vivian *pretends* to be Franklin displaying his *style* [his way of gesturing] Franklin, watching this unfold pounds his thigh and laughs, announcing ?That?s me! You?re pretending to be me. Is that really me??* ?When I first read this chapter I held my breath as all the children, recognizing that Paley is acting out Franklin, look at Franklin. I was afraid he would be upset, but as you point out, he recognizes perfection when he sees it!? *This is the moment of awakening, to being a head taller.* *The teacher?s *response*: ?It really IS you. I watched you in the blocks,. That?s the way you sounded. REMEMBER??* *Franklin?s *response*: ?I do REMEMBER. You did that part just right.? [with fidelity in Franklin?s eyes]* I found it amazing that he not only recognized himself but appreciated how well he was portrayed *acting in a manner that he could not remember * when she asked him what had happened right after he drove the other boys out of the activity. ?So, with respect to microgenesis/ontogenesis: I interpret the change in Franklin's behavior, judged by his ability to play Franklin being a good player in the blocks to involve a qualitative change in behavior - a developmental shift "upwards." I also interpret this event as an example of microgenesis. Note, with respect to ontogenesis, that Franklin is not always? the "good" Franklin in the blocks. But the fact that he has been able to interact with others in this way means that ?he has his own prior experience to draw upon as he learns (as incompletely as the rest of us highly developed people) to see oneself as others see us. I wonder what Paley would have to tell us, in more detail, about the subsequent changes over the months of the school year. How does this microgenetic developmental change itself change during Franklin's ontogenesis? mike? From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Oct 19 12:00:57 2016 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:00:57 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b701d22a3b$20d283f0$62778bd0$@att.net> Hoo HOO! And Hooray, too! Thanks, Mike. I needed one more liitle push to get that article in my attention span. Peg -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 1:49 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Prototyping For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on Kukiya kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I suggest a new thread with the title, prototyping. Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by Molly. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From glassman.13@osu.edu Wed Oct 19 12:25:08 2016 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 19:25:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: <00b701d22a3b$20d283f0$62778bd0$@att.net> References: <00b701d22a3b$20d283f0$62778bd0$@att.net> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4AC30@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> It's interesting, I haven't really been following the conversation due to other pressures, but then I saw Mike post this article, which I happened to pick up yesterday. Based on some recent conversations I have been reading Ivan Illich in some depth recently, and that's what brought me around to the maker movement. But I have to admit I am having a difficult time getting my head around it. Is the maker movement a replaying of Tools for Conviviality - the idea that by exploring how things work in the world we come to know and be part of each other? Or is it attempting to put learners in some type of system, give them the right tools and let them build and they will somehow end up in a learning place. It's interesting that the Maker movement, at least as represented by the fellow Doughtery at the Technology, Education and Design conference in Detroit, seems to be an offshoot of the Silicon Valley/Libertarian approach to technology. Let loose young innovators upon the world and see the power that they will create!!! As the article suggests this is a very elitist view of how individuals see the world and their own success. Like Grit (also introduced at a Technology, Entertainment and Design conference) it allows the entrepreneurs to say I am successful because I got out there and innovated, and did it with a lot of grit. Does the maker movement allow us to cast innovation in a libertarian mold. Almost the opposite of what Illich thought about this type of exploration I think. For him to my current reading it is more about transparency, the idea that nobody is controlling you, but you through your own actions can know the world. Anyway, that's enough of rambling for the moment. I guess you can see how scattershot my thinking is about all this. I keep wondering about its relationship to the DIY movement of the sixties, bootstrapping and the Homebrew Computer Club in the seventies, and how that all got turned in to a libertarian mosh in the eighties. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peg Griffin Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:01 PM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping Hoo HOO! And Hooray, too! Thanks, Mike. I needed one more liitle push to get that article in my attention span. Peg -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 1:49 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Prototyping For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on Kukiya kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I suggest a new thread with the title, prototyping. Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by Molly. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 19 12:55:38 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 12:55:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Formatting problem Message-ID: Folks -- Several of us have our word processors set for line lengths that exceed what the email format will swallow, so we are coming up with messages that have lots of extra lines in them. If possible, would you check to see that your emails are fitting the screen -- the ideas are tough enough to deal with when perfectly formatted! mike PS- This msg looks ok on my screen, but maybe its coming through with the same error, in which case, sing out. -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From glassman.13@osu.edu Wed Oct 19 13:01:54 2016 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 20:01:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Formatting problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4ACA8@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> It's hard to know, because when I got it kicked back to my screen it looked fine so I'm not even sure what to fix. I don't understand technology on so many levels. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:56 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Formatting problem Folks -- Several of us have our word processors set for line lengths that exceed what the email format will swallow, so we are coming up with messages that have lots of extra lines in them. If possible, would you check to see that your emails are fitting the screen -- the ideas are tough enough to deal with when perfectly formatted! mike PS- This msg looks ok on my screen, but maybe its coming through with the same error, in which case, sing out. -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 19 13:47:38 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 13:47:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Formatting problem In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4ACA8@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4ACA8@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: I hear your pain, Michael. I do not know why mine works (if it does!), relying on bruce jones to help when there are problems. Bruce is available for help and perhaps another xmca person will be able to inform us both. mike On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > > It's hard to know, because when I got it kicked back to my screen it > looked fine so I'm not even sure what to fix. I don't understand > technology on so many levels. > > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:56 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Formatting problem > > Folks -- > > Several of us have our word processors set for line lengths that exceed > what the email format will swallow, so we are coming up with messages that > have lots of extra lines in them. If possible, would you check to see that > your emails are fitting the screen -- the ideas are tough enough to deal > with when perfectly formatted! > mike > PS- This msg looks ok on my screen, but maybe its coming through with the > same error, in which case, sing out. > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 13:57:35 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 14:57:35 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and preferred) spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found "jerry-built" as another term. (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it "jerry-rigged"). These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, simultaneously has connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I could say why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - Ikea hacking). "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking your iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and rebuild it for some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who was building an online educational credentialing website that used the phrase "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but I support the idea in principle). Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... -greg On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve and it seems > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. It is in > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other languages: > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I should add that > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a little bit clumsy > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat derisive way to > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat different from > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and haste and > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has something to do with > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" manufacture in > the U.S. > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with different > cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. kukiya-kiya. > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker movement has > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to recover one's > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx reference (and > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a kukiya-kiya attempt to > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that they > certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation of necessity > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see there on the > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? Or if this > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there actually both > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy in > creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > Very best, > greg > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on Kukiya >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I suggest a >> new thread with the title, prototyping. >> >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by Molly. >> >> mike >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From Peg.Griffin@att.net Wed Oct 19 14:29:10 2016 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 17:29:10 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4AC30@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <00b701d22a3b$20d283f0$62778bd0$@att.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4AC30@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <00f801d22a4f$d4fdee00$7ef9ca00$@att.net> Times are tight right now --trying to figure out what?s going on with 23 Masters? students and what?s going on in York PA voting. It makes me smile to know that Mike and his neighbors are keeping Issa hopping out there -- first time in a long time he had any worries! There is such power in that article ? starting with the Edwidge Danticat example puts up front the concrete/specific whole so motivating the careful examination of the various pretenders to a throne for the so-called maker movement. It really irritates me I can?t give it enough good thinking time. Recently I?ve learned more about Arabic alphabet blocks ? they encode not just upper and lower case for the letters of the alphabet but up to four ?cases? for many of the letters. (And some alphabet symbols can serve as number symbols, too!) Maybe the discussions of Quranic literacy for beginners need to consider this (as well as diglossia) more deeply. Might be an example of socio-cultural work-around for pedagogy as beginners recite memorized passages ? starting with a ?whole? that pricks at/teases perceptions of letter shapes while you are reciting it from memory. It?s an alternative to focusing on ?leveled? synthetic or analytic phonics. The juxtaposing of memory feats and visual field littered with affordances could be related to the kind of teaching/learning described in the after school school of Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud?. I can?t do much until the York voting focus is finished (hopefully first week in November) and my repairs with the students are in hand (maybe as late as mid-December). Meanwhile, as you tend to your tomatoes or whatever is in your garden, Mike, remember my long ago slogan about academic work: Isn't it more worthwhile to drive tomatoes to market? -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:25 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping It's interesting, I haven't really been following the conversation due to other pressures, but then I saw Mike post this article, which I happened to pick up yesterday. Based on some recent conversations I have been reading Ivan Illich in some depth recently, and that's what brought me around to the maker movement. But I have to admit I am having a difficult time getting my head around it. Is the maker movement a replaying of Tools for Conviviality - the idea that by exploring how things work in the world we come to know and be part of each other? Or is it attempting to put learners in some type of system, give them the right tools and let them build and they will somehow end up in a learning place. It's interesting that the Maker movement, at least as represented by the fellow Doughtery at the Technology, Education and Design conference in Detroit, seems to be an offshoot of the Silicon Valley/Libertarian approach to technology. Let loose young innovators upon the world and see the power that they will create!!! As the article suggests this is a very elitist view of how individuals see the world and their own success. Like Grit (also introduced at a Technology, Entertainment and Design conference) it allows the entrepreneurs to say I am successful because I got out there and innovated, and did it with a lot of grit. Does the maker movement allow us to cast innovation in a libertarian mold. Almost the opposite of what Illich thought about this type of exploration I think. For him to my current reading it is more about transparency, the idea that nobody is controlling you, but you through your own actions can know the world. Anyway, that's enough of rambling for the moment. I guess you can see how scattershot my thinking is about all this. I keep wondering about its relationship to the DIY movement of the sixties, bootstrapping and the Homebrew Computer Club in the seventies, and how that all got turned in to a libertarian mosh in the eighties. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peg Griffin Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:01 PM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping Hoo HOO! And Hooray, too! Thanks, Mike. I needed one more liitle push to get that article in my attention span. Peg -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 1:49 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Prototyping For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on Kukiya kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I suggest a new thread with the title, prototyping. Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by Molly. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lstone@skymail.csus.edu Wed Oct 19 14:29:23 2016 From: lstone@skymail.csus.edu (Stone, Lynda) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 21:29:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] faculty position Message-ID: <91AA0346-2AFF-45A1-805A-82492C846AF3@csus.edu> Hi All! There is a faculty position with a focus qualitative research and a preference for someone with a strong back ground in cultural-historical theories of human development?so hope you can share this with interested colleagues or students? Thanks!! -lynda Tenure-track position at CSU Sacramento with a focus on qualitative research methods Qualifications REQUIRED: - An earned doctoral degree in Child/Human Development, Applied Developmental Psychology, Developmental Psychology, Developmental Science, Education, and Psychology, or an equivalent program. ABD candidates will be considered. If ABD, candidates will be required to complete the doctorate by August, 2017. - Applicants should possess a specialization in qualitative research methods with a strong emphasis in developmental theory as demonstrated in their teaching, research or professional experience. - Candidates must demonstrate knowledge of, and professional and/or research experience with children, adolescents, students and/or families from diverse backgrounds. PREFERRED: - Candidates with a specialization in sociocultural developmental theory. - Demonstrated experience and effectiveness in college level, undergraduate, and/or graduate level teaching in the area of qualitative research methods. - A clearly defined program of school- and/or community-based qualitative research and publication, or demonstrated potential for establishing such a record. - The Child Development Program faculty further values leadership potential, interpersonal skills, and the ability to work with students from diverse backgrounds. Appointment The position is tenure-track and will be at the Assistant Professor rank beginning with the Fall 2017 semester. Salary is dependent upon qualifications and professional/research experience. Application Review Review of applications will begin December 1, 2016 and the position will remain open until filled. Lynda Stone, Ph.D. Professor Child Development CSUS/UC-Links Program Director From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 19 14:38:07 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 14:38:07 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hell, Peg -- I cannot get my tomatoes to grow in the odd weather we have had this summer, let alone get them to market. Pretty much can be said for my scholarly efforts as well! I have been mulling over why prototyping and CHAT appear to have a kind of natural affinity. I am speculating at the moment that both are focused on production, and the AT part of CHAT is very clearly focused on production. Just think of the activities of those who attend, say, ISCAR. But production is intimately (dare I say dialectically?) related to consumption. Where is the good CHAT scholarship on the Foodie movement? What is being consumed in an activity-centered classroom or a developmental work research change lab? Seems worth inquiring about. mike mike On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and preferred) > spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found "jerry-built" as > another term. > (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it "jerry-rigged"). > > These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, simultaneously has > connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I could say > why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - Ikea hacking). > > "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking your > iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and rebuild it for > some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who was > building an online educational credentialing website that used the phrase > "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but I support > the idea in principle). > > Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... > > -greg > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve and it seems > > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. It is in > > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other languages: > > > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I should add that > > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a little bit > clumsy > > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat derisive way > to > > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat different > from > > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and haste and > > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has something to do > with > > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" manufacture in > > the U.S. > > > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with different > > cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. kukiya-kiya. > > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker movement has > > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to recover one's > > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx reference (and > > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a kukiya-kiya attempt > to > > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that they > > certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). > > > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation of > necessity > > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see there on the > > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? Or if this > > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there actually both > > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy in > > creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > > > Very best, > > greg > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on > Kukiya > >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I > suggest a > >> new thread with the title, prototyping. > >> > >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by > Molly. > >> > >> mike > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >> object > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 14:41:39 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 14:41:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4AC30@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <00b701d22a3b$20d283f0$62778bd0$@att.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4AC30@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <5807e899.92246b0a.8911.4444@mx.google.com> Michael, As a fragment, this tools for conviviality seems to indicate the theme i was exploring. By the others actions/gestures ( a musician) exploring for example a potential of this musical instrument through the gestures of this particular other we come to know the instrument but more importantly we come to experience the instruments musicality. (notice the ity). This is the instruments *inner* meaning. Now this gesture of the other calls me to pick up the instrument and i produce squawking sounds. However i have now experienced the meaning of the instrument and its *potential*. I have an *assumption* of the instruments meaning and can in the future participate in a *resumption* with others of the instuments potential meaning (its musicality). Intentionality (of meaning) is being *played out* at multiple levels through the gestures of the other *addressing* me and i am carried along directed towards the *subject matter* ( the musicality) the meaningfulness of the instrument through which the meaning potential is being played out. This conviviality is implicating me in coming to know and coming to be in a shared world where we are part of each other Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Glassman, Michael Sent: October 19, 2016 12:27 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping It's interesting, I haven't really been following the conversation due to other pressures, but then I saw Mike post this article, which I happened to pick up yesterday. Based on some recent conversations I have been reading Ivan Illich in some depth recently, and that's what brought me around to the maker movement. But I have to admit I am having a difficult time getting my head around it. Is the maker movement a replaying of Tools for Conviviality - the idea that by exploring how things work in the world we come to know and be part of each other? Or is it attempting to put learners in some type of system, give them the right tools and let them build and they will somehow end up in a learning place. It's interesting that the Maker movement, at least as represented by the fellow Doughtery at the Technology, Education and Design conference in Detroit, seems to be an offshoot of the Silicon Valley/Libertarian approach to technology. Let loose young innovators upon the world and see the power that they will create!!! As the article suggests this is a very elitist view of how individuals see the world and their own success. Like Grit (also introduced at a Technology, Entertainment and Design conference) it allows the entrepreneurs to say I am successful because I got out there and innovated, and did it with a lot of grit. Does the maker movement allow us to cast innovation in a libertarian mold. Almost the opposite of what Illich thought about this type of exploration I think. For him to my current reading it is more about transparency, the idea that nobody is controlling you, but you through your own actions can know the world. Anyway, that's enough of rambling for the moment. I guess you can see how scattershot my thinking is about all this. I keep wondering about its relationship to the DIY movement of the sixties, bootstrapping and the Homebrew Computer Club in the seventies, and how that all got turned in to a libertarian mosh in the eighties. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peg Griffin Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:01 PM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping Hoo HOO! And Hooray, too! Thanks, Mike. I needed one more liitle push to get that article in my attention span. Peg -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 1:49 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Prototyping For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on Kukiya kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I suggest a new thread with the title, prototyping. Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by Molly. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Wed Oct 19 15:15:20 2016 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 22:15:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> My off the top of my head, Michael, is that in part information is being consumed - as well as shared feelings of success, or frustration, or good cheer. Perhaps, even in a Batesonian-way. Imminent mind is being both produced and consumed. And of course, to consume can also be an example of full engagement (consumed with interest) and the root is "to take up". Some thoughts. Phillip Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. Original Message From: mike cole Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:45 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping Hell, Peg -- I cannot get my tomatoes to grow in the odd weather we have had this summer, let alone get them to market. Pretty much can be said for my scholarly efforts as well! I have been mulling over why prototyping and CHAT appear to have a kind of natural affinity. I am speculating at the moment that both are focused on production, and the AT part of CHAT is very clearly focused on production. Just think of the activities of those who attend, say, ISCAR. But production is intimately (dare I say dialectically?) related to consumption. Where is the good CHAT scholarship on the Foodie movement? What is being consumed in an activity-centered classroom or a developmental work research change lab? Seems worth inquiring about. mike mike On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and preferred) > spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found "jerry-built" as > another term. > (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it "jerry-rigged"). > > These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, simultaneously has > connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I could say > why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - Ikea hacking). > > "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking your > iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and rebuild it for > some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who was > building an online educational credentialing website that used the phrase > "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but I support > the idea in principle). > > Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... > > -greg > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve and it seems > > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. It is in > > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other languages: > > > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I should add that > > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a little bit > clumsy > > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat derisive way > to > > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat different > from > > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and haste and > > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has something to do > with > > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" manufacture in > > the U.S. > > > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with different > > cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. kukiya-kiya. > > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker movement has > > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to recover one's > > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx reference (and > > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a kukiya-kiya attempt > to > > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that they > > certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). > > > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation of > necessity > > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see there on the > > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? Or if this > > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there actually both > > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy in > > creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > > > Very best, > > greg > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on > Kukiya > >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I > suggest a > >> new thread with the title, prototyping. > >> > >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by > Molly. > >> > >> mike > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >> object > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 15:15:34 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 09:15:34 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike: My mother was a psychologist too--like you, trained as a behaviourist, but unlike you she got off into Piaget in the early sixties. Then she moved on to other things: she wrote a biography of Ada, Countess of Lovelace, which was published by MIT Press and got her some notoriety, mostly because she showed that Byron's daughter, who everyone has assumed to be a kind of feminist icon and the world's first computer programmer, didn't actually know any mathematics! She told me a lot about Piaget and Lawrence Kohlberg (who she briefly studied with). But I was unable to interest her in Vygotsky or in cultural historical psychology: she saw it, perhaps correctly, as nothing more than an attempt to prolong what she considered the crazy Bolshevism of my youth. Herr first response to losing her higher mental functions (when we walked to the Tate Art Gallery near her home in London and she forgot her way home) was simply horror. She went through a difficult period of terrors (curiously, mostly concerned with money, of which she still has a great deal more than she needs). Now she has stabilized (and she is actually much happier than I ever remember her). But she has completely forgotten that she ever had children, doesn't know her age or history, and also lacks control over basic physiological functions. I think that the three strategies I gave you (pronouns, delight that masks astonishment, and avoiding explanations) really are rooted in the lower psychological functions and not in higher functions: pronominal meaning can be simply indicative rather than nominative, delight is an example of her inability to divide affect from will, and avoiding "why" is an example of the loss of semantic meaning and reliance on the visual purview alone. The last time I took language samples from her, they were comparable to those of a two year old. Unfortunately is the word! And yet...perhaps this is something else we can all learn from Vygotsky. I don't just mean the way he faced death: he died young, at the very height of his powers, and he had been practicing dying for the whole of his adult life, so the comparison with my mother is manifestly unfair. I mean first of all the way that Vygotsky really does use "pathogenesis", not as a new form of development but rather as a way of examining the real prior processes of development (which, as a Spinozan, he believed always involved the expansion of potential rather than its contraction). That's why Vygotsky ends almost every single chapter in the second part of HDHMF with a pathological example, why never gives up on "defektology", and I also think that is why he started studying medicine even when he knew there was no hope for himself: it offers a way of looking at the lower layers of development and how they subtend or fail to subtend the higher ones. The second thing, though, was what I think he discovered through his pathogenetic analyses: that there is a very real difference between phylogenesis and sociogenesis, between sociogenesis and ontogenesis...and also, as I am now quite sure, between ontogenesis and microgenesis. In phylogenesis: descent through modification--i.e. through the ruthless destruction of individuals and whole species. In sociogenesis, the very opposite: public health, compulsory education, and the knowledge that it is precisely our ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the very young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for everybody, and not simply the very young and very old. The end of ontogenesis is not simply death--it is the decline that it inevitable after roughly the age that Vygotsky died. But with literacy, we are able to pass on our very best to the next generation. I don't know if Vygotsky really believed that these last lectures of his would be translated and read by thousands of teachers in some totally foreign land eight decades after his death--he believed in internationalism, so I think it's at least possible that he did. But whether he believed it or not, that is what is going to happen, and it's why I think that cultural-historical psychologists, unlike Piagetians, can face decline and death with a certain equanimity and acceptance. But it is also why I'm not really sure that Dorothy Kellogg Stein's biography of Ada Lovelace was such a terrible mistake, Mike. When I take it off the shelf and read it, I can still hear her voice, feel her razor-like intellect, and even remonstrate with her individualistic and biologizing psychology. When I go and actually visit her at Lord Wandsworth's Home for Aging Jewry in Clapham I cannot. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > David - > > I think it is unfortunate to link workarounds with a loss of higher > psychological functions. Again, it seems like ontogeny recapitulates > history. The end of ontogeny is death. Ditto history? > > By any account I can think of, your mother is using higher higher > psychological functions to work around the inability to retrieve vocabulary > at a conventional level of abstraction. I am of an age where the same > problem can be noticed. Nice that I can, for the time being, understand > enough to be able to study development in decline in real life in addition > to experiencing it. Hmm, that means I have some higher higher functions to > draw upon! > > In our own work, the workarounds needed to solve the failure of a gifted, > "promising" technology under high pressure to succeed created both a > successful product and resulted in productive education for all involved. > > To me, a great example of pathogenisis is the use of the highly developed, > highly admired, highly financed, digital technologies of cyberspace. > Clearly an advance over atomic bombs- cleaner, faster, more efficient. > > Where I think there is something distinctly unusual in Zaza's prototyping > example is that the prototyping itself, even if it > had been accomplishable easily with strong technological/resource backing, > is a work around for the inability to confront directly the cultural > beliefs that make it shameful for a woman with HIV to bottle feed her baby. > We rarely discuss the power of cultural norms in constraining cultural > change even when the current practices threaten reproduction of the social > group. It seems, perhaps, an intractable problem. The US appears unable to > give up on putting water in disposable plastic bottles. Pathogenesis? > > I'll follow my habit of sorting things out by responding vis a vis > Franklin in Larry's note below. I will respond on a thread called > microgenesis/ontogenesis. > > Compensatorily yours. > mike > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:15 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Mike likes a discussion to be, as Bernstein put it, well framed and well > > classified; or at least he likes the threads to be well disentangled and > > properly subject lined. But perhaps we shouldn't give up on the "The > > Prototyping Mind" too quickly! As you can see from Molly's careful > perusal > > and forceful restatement of Zaza's major themes, there is still a lot in > > Zaza's prototyping bin to talk about. > > > > The one that interests me, that I think is relevant to the "microgenesis" > > thread, is what learning means when it means adapting to > anti-development. > > For example, there are undoubtedly work-arounds that people use when > their > > higher psychological functions start to shut down (I watched my mother do > > quite a few of these, addressing everyone as "you" instead of using > names, > > reacting to novel situations with a delight which effectively hides her > > astonishment, and above all refraining from trying to understand the > > reasons for present situations). > > > > Similarly, there are ontogenetic work-arounds that people use when > > commodity production shuts down. But in both cases, we have a kind of > > development which forgoes time's arrow; we have a notion of development > > that works backwards and forwards (like the laws of physics as opposed to > > the laws of thermodynamics). I won't say that suggests relativism (that > > would be, I think, too moralistic an argument, and it is a rabbit hole we > > have been down already anyway). But it suggests an atomism that I > disagree > > with (in addition to eschewing time, the laws of physics don't combine > > matter and meaning the way that the laws of thermodynamics do!) > > > > Mike has offered Franklin as an example of a Zoped before (I remember > once > > thinking that he directed it to ME as a way of getting ME to think a bit > > about listening to others on this list, but in fact he's used it in print > > on at least one occasion). Whenever he offers it, he does the exact > > opposite of what he usually does with xmca threads: instead of asking us > to > > disentangle threads, he invites us to combine them. Franklin is learning > > (to listen to others). But he is also developing, on at least three > counts: > > by learning to listen to others, he is acquiring new forms of meaning > > potential; by learning to recognize himself when it is "played back" to > > him, he is acquiring a new form of reflecting on experience; and (this is > > the one I really want to talk about) he is learning that play is not > simply > > the manipulation of objects but also the manipulation of social roles > > according to abstract rules (such as reciprocity and mutuality). > > > > Now, you can see that I'm trying to disentangle things that are not > really > > that distinct (reciprocity is really a form of serial mutuality, and both > > of them are simply abstract forms of listening to others). The Vygotsky > > lectures I'm working with are a little similar: in his work on the Crisis > > at Three (Franklin's Crisis, I suspect), he is trying to disentangle the > > "seven stars" of bad behaviour (folk concepts that nursemaids and mothers > > use--I notice there is even a Russian Wikipedia page!) from what he > thinks > > is the key neoformation of Three, the separation of affect and will. > > > > For example, negativism is not just saying "no". It's saying "no" when > the > > child really wants to say "yes", because although the child wants to say > > "yes", the others in the social milieu also want him to say "yes", and > the > > child is more interested in self-assertion than in self-gratification. > > Obstinacy is not just tenacity. It's actually the negation of negativism: > > saying "yes" when the child really wants to "no", or maybe "who cares?", > > simply because the child has already said "yes" and once again the child > is > > more interested in will than in affect. And so on. > > > > How is this connected with the next zone of development? Perhaps the next > > zone of development is preschool, and preschool depends on the separation > > of the semantic and the visio-graphic field of action in play. If so, > > Franklin's ability to interpret the teacher's imitation of his own > actions > > is a "trailer" of that next zone of development and no mere act of > > learning. Or, maybe this is happening in a preschool, and the next zone > of > > development is actually the Crisis at Seven. If so, Franklin's ability to > > recognize himself is a "trailer" of the next zone of development: acting > a > > role that is not really a role, but in fact a prototype self. > > > > But that's my problem, Molly. What do I do when the prototype self comes > to > > me from the past and not the future? Can we really call this development? > > Isn't it really a form of pathogenesis? > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:29 AM, molly shea wrote: > > > > > Dear Zaza and Mike, > > > > > > My apologies for entering the conversation on Kukiya-kiya late, > however, > > > the article was so compelling I feel I should still enter. First, to > > Zaza, > > > thank you for writing such a forceful analysis of learning through > > > prototyping. I especially like the ways in which your analytical lens > > > included the political dimensions of problem solving and invoking > > > expertise. There are two ideas within the article that I hope to use > and > > > extend in my work as well, and a question for Zaza, Mike, and others at > > the > > > end of my second musing. > > > > > > The first is your discussion of disinheritance as *an attention to > > > materials?a way of looking at materials that allows the beholder to > > > recognize transience, mutability, intermediateness?that allows > > Zimbabweans > > > to employ novel and unexpected ways to act within and around the > > > constraints of their material conditions.* By pointing out the separate > > > cognitive practice associated with seeing through disinheritance, the > > > analysis draws attention to the political dimension of learning. The > > > possible activities and therefore learning opportunities that arise > > through > > > this historical perception change and assumptions about designing > > learning > > > environments then shifts with these methods of seeing and using > > materials. > > > It also draws another potential distinction between the Maker Movement > > and > > > Kukiya?kiya. The Makers Movement doesn?t necessarily claim a political > > > agenda, however, by claiming something a-political or claiming an > agenda > > of > > > advancing technological skills in the name of progress, it has a > > historical > > > and political situated set of values that may be in opposition to those > > of > > > Kukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material disinheritance > > arising > > > in the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? (2016) > > do > > > a wonderful job of pointing out many of the neoliberal consequences of > a > > > maker movement that does not see the lineage of prototyping expertise > > > coming from many low-income communities living in ?tight > circumstances?. > > > The power of the design of this prototyping project, for me, comes from > > > centering local expertise in the design of the learning environment. > > > Although prototyping is at the center of both ?making? and > ?kukiya?kiya? > > > practices, it seems the political sense making between settings > couldn?t > > be > > > more different. Even within the Zaza paper, the participants question > how > > > invention might or might not lead to liberation. I appreciate Zaza's > > > attention to how participants questioned invention and business acumen > > as a > > > means to ?extricate Zimbabwe from its economic quandary?. A lesser > > > researcher may have ignored this comment as outside of the design > process > > > and therefore the data set to be analyzed. > > > > > > The second idea, related to the political dimensions of cognition that > > are > > > often overlooked, is your analysis of gender and expertise in the > design > > > process. I am struck by how the performance of gender and > > design-expertise > > > came in the form of whispers and informal conversations about > hand-bags. > > It > > > would be great to have more analysis like this one where gender > networks > > > inform design. In fact, it seems gender (man/woman/trans/other) is > always > > > informing design, but perhaps performance of expertise that is cis-male > > is > > > sometimes confused with having expertise at all. You analysis offers > more > > > nuance about other kinds of performance of expertise. I wonder if > > > discussions about hand-bags creates the intimacy necessary to share > > > female-cis gendered understandings of design problems. I would love to > > hear > > > your thinking on this matter. > > > > > > Again, thank you for your work and for the insights that this article > has > > > provided me. > > > > > > - Molly Shea > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:46 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of Zaza's > paper > > > > (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any > time), I > > > > feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. > > > > > > > > I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, but as > > > life > > > > allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in at > > least > > > > some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. > > > > > > > > So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It addresses (I > > > > believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a child > is > > "a > > > > head taller than herself." > > > > > > > > Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my > > > interpretation > > > > of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about the > zoped > > > and > > > > play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic implications. > > > > > > > > See what you think. its 4 pages long. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also > > be > > > a > > > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > > > evolution > > > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone > of > > > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer > > than I > > > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very > good > > > > idea > > > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for > > "development" > > > > and > > > > > not for learning. > > > > > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in > the > > > what > > > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we > > are > > > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an > > interpersonal > > > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very > > often > > > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > > > > nothing > > > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > > > > Thirdly, > > > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing > before > > we > > > > go > > > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand > what > > > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > > > > teaching > > > > > needs. > > > > > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at > Three", > > > > part > > > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > > > Collected > > > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? > ??????-???? > > > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > > > > ???????? > > > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > > > ???????????, > > > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? > ??????????. ? > > > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? > > ?????????? > > > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > > > > grouped > > > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > > > Consequently, > > > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very > least > > > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > > > appointed > > > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > > > afterwards > > > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral > > lines > > > > of > > > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > > > > critical > > > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, > > > i.e. > > > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the > > child's > > > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > > > development, > > > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and > > learning. > > > > He > > > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to > avoid > > > it: > > > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie > > > that > > > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we > need > > > to > > > > do > > > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > > > > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > > > > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but > about > > > > > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > > > component > > > > > > for sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students > to > > > go > > > > > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of > > development > > > > > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind > of > > > > > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very > narrow > > > > > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me > from > > > > > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature > > presents > > > > > > many problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > > > > about. > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think > > > there > > > > > are > > > > > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion > > of > > > > the > > > > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > > > think > > > > > the > > > > > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that > were > > > > > picked > > > > > > up > > > > > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of > > development". > > > > But > > > > > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > > > > hasn't > > > > > > been > > > > > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the > > idea > > > > > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done > by > > > the > > > > > > child > > > > > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is > just > > > too > > > > > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. > Secondly, > > > > there > > > > > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone > of > > > > > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > > > lectures, > > > > > but > > > > > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > > > interesting > > > > > > to > > > > > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > > > lectures: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > > > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > > > 1998: > > > > > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on > replacing > > > > > "test" > > > > > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" > > with > > > > > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and > total > > > > > > nonsense. > > > > > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is > NOT > > > > > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > > > infinitely > > > > > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > > > mediation, > > > > > > can > > > > > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted > > from > > > > its > > > > > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: > > for > > > > > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but > function > > > MUST > > > > > be > > > > > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two > > children. > > > > One > > > > > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply > > > that > > > > > the > > > > > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the > second > > > > does > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right > > > functional > > > > > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) > while > > > the > > > > > > other > > > > > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of > learning > > > > > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means > > > that > > > > > they > > > > > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole > > lot > > > > > > easier > > > > > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > > > > future > > > > > > are > > > > > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > > > > inversion > > > > > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the > future > > > is > > > > > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> David, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to > > spot a > > > > > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > > > urbanistic > > > > > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no > > longer > > > > > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to > > that > > > > > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > > > challenge > > > > of > > > > > > >> oral utterances. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > > > > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written > words > > > > when > > > > > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > > > > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Best > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > > > > > linguistics or > > > > > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > > > > sociogenetic, > > > > > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > > > > article > > > > > > on > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it > > would > > > > > help > > > > > > us > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > > > microgenetic > > > > > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > > > around > > > > > > when > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > > > constant > > > > > > >> feature > > > > > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > > > associated > > > > > > with > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term > and > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > use > > > > > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > > > Lewin, > > > > > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem > to > > > use > > > > > the > > > > > > >> term > > > > > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > > > psychology > > > > > > and > > > > > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > > > > denounces > > > > > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > > > > Psychoneurology". I > > > > > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > > > external > > > > > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", > > calls > > > > his > > > > > > >> "micro" > > > > > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > > > > > biological, > > > > > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At > a > > > > > > particular > > > > > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual > high > > > > > > fidelity > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she > > > sees > > > > > that > > > > > > >> her > > > > > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > > > > meaning. > > > > > > But > > > > > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: > the > > > > > specific > > > > > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. > > Microgenesis > > > is > > > > > > what > > > > > > >> you > > > > > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you > are > > > > > reading > > > > > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From ewall@umich.edu Wed Oct 19 15:34:14 2016 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 17:34:14 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Formatting problem In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4ACA8@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <51CE3488-E01D-444E-B04F-8525066BF226@umich.edu> Mike Actually your original message and this message of yours look like they have a ?carriage return? imbedded in the text (i.e. the lines are too short when I resize the screen of the email reader). However, Michael?s original post does not and, oddly enough, the copy of your original page in his post doesn?t either. The last time I paid attention to this problem it seemed to also depend on whether things were be read on a Mac vs a PC (as the way a ?return? is signaled is different or used to be) and it probably varies depending on your email reader. On the Mac, at least, it is best that you have as little formatting as possible as the screen size of the email reader, in a sense, formats. Ed > On Oct 19, 2016, at 3:47 PM, mike cole wrote: > > I hear your pain, Michael. I do not know why mine works (if it does!), > relying on bruce jones to help when there are problems. > > Bruce is available for help and perhaps another xmca person will be able to > inform us both. > > mike > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Glassman, Michael > wrote: > >> >> >> It's hard to know, because when I got it kicked back to my screen it >> looked fine so I'm not even sure what to fix. I don't understand >> technology on so many levels. >> >> >> Michael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ >> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:56 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Formatting problem >> >> Folks -- >> >> Several of us have our word processors set for line lengths that exceed >> what the email format will swallow, so we are coming up with messages that >> have lots of extra lines in them. If possible, would you check to see that >> your emails are fitting the screen -- the ideas are tough enough to deal >> with when perfectly formatted! >> mike >> PS- This msg looks ok on my screen, but maybe its coming through with the >> same error, in which case, sing out. >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 19 17:27:26 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 17:27:26 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did not intend to demean your mother's situation, David. And the following makes your examples concrete: I think that the three strategies I gave you (pronouns, delight that masks astonishment, and avoiding explanations) really are rooted in the lower psychological functions and not in higher functions:* pronominal meaning can be simply* *indicative rather than nominative, delight is an example of her inabilityto divide affect from will, and avoiding "why" is an example of the loss ofsemantic meaning and reliance on the visual purview alone. The last time Itook language samples from her, they were comparable to those of a two yearold. * But if one adopts your view, why do you liken the deteriorization of her higher psychological functions to the kind of work around illustrated by prototyping under difficult conditions? *Perhaps its because you view sociogenesis as "the very* *opposite: public health, compulsory education, and the knowledge that it? is precisely our ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the very? young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for everybody,and not simply the very young and very old.* *?*With respect to public health the evidence I know of indicate that the agricultural revolution, and subsequent urbanization led to a deteriorization of life expectancy and health for the population as a whole (however much it benefited the elites). *?*(As a priveleged member of the privileged classes I would have been dead several times in the last couple of decades had it not been for modern medicine-- my younger brother died 40 years before me of pancreatitis which is now routinely treatable). The high high and highest level of civilization of Germany in 1930 did nothing to prevent the rise of Hitler and its aftermath -- and we can see that scenario playing out daily in the US at present,,,, hopefully to a different conclusion. With respect to the microgenesis/ontogeny issue, I gave yet to figure out the source of your confidence in their dissimilarity. I brought up Franklin in the blocks (again - its a part of your ontogeny but not that of most who participate on xmca at present) because it seems to be an example of microgenesis-as-developmental change. With respect to the idea that humans now exhibit the ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the very ? young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for everybody,*and not simply the very young and very old.* *? ?-- *I really am not sure what you are referring to. As always, your ideas are interesting and enlightening, even when I do not properly understand them. Exhibiting my ignorance has the virtue of provoking the conditions for deeper understanding. My likening your mother's loss of semantic meaning to my (so far normal) "senior moments" did not envision an (almost) total loss of functions, higher and lower by Vygotky's reckoning. It is as if the multiple layers of history to be seen in Rome were reduced by war and weather to the bottom-most stratum of the pre-Etruscan. ?mike? PS-- With regard to cultural-historical/societal genesis Benjamin's Angelus Novus often comes to mind. A Klee painting "Angelus Novus" shows an angel looking as though he is about to move away from something he is fixedly contemplating. His eyes are staring, his mouth is open, his wings are spread. This is how one pictures the angel of history. His face is turned toward the past. Where we perceive a chain ? of events, he sees one single ? catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage upon ? wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The an ? ? gel would like to stay, awaken ? the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing ? from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such violence that the angel ? can no longer close them. This storm irresistibly propels him into the future ? to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows skyward. This storm is what we call progress. (pp. 257-58) ?? PS-- On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 3:15 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Mike: > > My mother was a psychologist too--like you, trained as a behaviourist, but > unlike you she got off into Piaget in the early sixties. Then she moved on > to other things: she wrote a biography of Ada, Countess of Lovelace, which > was published by MIT Press and got her some notoriety, mostly because she > showed that Byron's daughter, who everyone has assumed to be a kind of > feminist icon and the world's first computer programmer, didn't actually > know any mathematics! She told me a lot about Piaget and Lawrence Kohlberg > (who she briefly studied with). But I was unable to interest her in > Vygotsky or in cultural historical psychology: she saw it, perhaps > correctly, as nothing more than an attempt to prolong what she considered > the crazy Bolshevism of my youth. > > Herr first response to losing her higher mental functions (when we walked > to the Tate Art Gallery near her home in London and she forgot her way > home) was simply horror. She went through a difficult period of terrors > (curiously, mostly concerned with money, of which she still has a great > deal more than she needs). Now she has stabilized (and she is actually much > happier than I ever remember her). But she has completely forgotten that > she ever had children, doesn't know her age or history, and also lacks > control over basic physiological functions. I think that the three > strategies I gave you (pronouns, delight that masks astonishment, and > avoiding explanations) really are rooted in the lower psychological > functions and not in higher functions: pronominal meaning can be simply > indicative rather than nominative, delight is an example of her inability > to divide affect from will, and avoiding "why" is an example of the loss of > semantic meaning and reliance on the visual purview alone. The last time I > took language samples from her, they were comparable to those of a two year > old. > > Unfortunately is the word! And yet...perhaps this is something else we can > all learn from Vygotsky. I don't just mean the way he faced death: he died > young, at the very height of his powers, and he had been practicing dying > for the whole of his adult life, so the comparison with my mother is > manifestly unfair. I mean first of all the way that Vygotsky really does > use "pathogenesis", not as a new form of development but rather as a way of > examining the real prior processes of development (which, as a Spinozan, he > believed always involved the expansion of potential rather than its > contraction). That's why Vygotsky ends almost every single chapter in the > second part of HDHMF with a pathological example, why never gives up > on "defektology", and I also think that is why he started studying medicine > even when he knew there was no hope for himself: it offers a way of looking > at the lower layers of development and how they subtend or fail to subtend > the higher ones. > > The second thing, though, was what I think he discovered through his > pathogenetic analyses: that there is a very real difference between > phylogenesis and sociogenesis, between sociogenesis and ontogenesis...and > also, as I am now quite sure, between ontogenesis and microgenesis. In > phylogenesis: descent through modification--i.e. through the ruthless > destruction of individuals and whole species. In sociogenesis, the very > opposite: public health, compulsory education, and the knowledge that it > is precisely our ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the very > young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for everybody, > and not simply the very young and very old. The end of ontogenesis is not > simply death--it is the decline that it inevitable after roughly the age > that Vygotsky died. But with literacy, we are able to pass on our very best > to the next generation. I don't know if Vygotsky really believed that these > last lectures of his would be translated and read by thousands of teachers > in some totally foreign land eight decades after his death--he believed > in internationalism, so I think it's at least possible that he did. But > whether he believed it or not, that is what is going to happen, and it's > why I think that cultural-historical psychologists, unlike Piagetians, can > face decline and death with a certain equanimity and acceptance. > > But it is also why I'm not really sure that Dorothy Kellogg Stein's > biography of Ada Lovelace was such a terrible mistake, Mike. When I take it > off the shelf and read it, I can still hear her voice, feel her razor-like > intellect, and even remonstrate with her individualistic and biologizing > psychology. When I go and actually visit her at Lord Wandsworth's Home for > Aging Jewry in Clapham I cannot. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > David - > > > > I think it is unfortunate to link workarounds with a loss of higher > > psychological functions. Again, it seems like ontogeny recapitulates > > history. The end of ontogeny is death. Ditto history? > > > > By any account I can think of, your mother is using higher higher > > psychological functions to work around the inability to retrieve > vocabulary > > at a conventional level of abstraction. I am of an age where the same > > problem can be noticed. Nice that I can, for the time being, understand > > enough to be able to study development in decline in real life in > addition > > to experiencing it. Hmm, that means I have some higher higher functions > to > > draw upon! > > > > In our own work, the workarounds needed to solve the failure of a gifted, > > "promising" technology under high pressure to succeed created both a > > successful product and resulted in productive education for all involved. > > > > To me, a great example of pathogenisis is the use of the highly > developed, > > highly admired, highly financed, digital technologies of cyberspace. > > Clearly an advance over atomic bombs- cleaner, faster, more efficient. > > > > Where I think there is something distinctly unusual in Zaza's prototyping > > example is that the prototyping itself, even if it > > had been accomplishable easily with strong technological/resource > backing, > > is a work around for the inability to confront directly the cultural > > beliefs that make it shameful for a woman with HIV to bottle feed her > baby. > > We rarely discuss the power of cultural norms in constraining cultural > > change even when the current practices threaten reproduction of the > social > > group. It seems, perhaps, an intractable problem. The US appears unable > to > > give up on putting water in disposable plastic bottles. Pathogenesis? > > > > I'll follow my habit of sorting things out by responding vis a vis > > Franklin in Larry's note below. I will respond on a thread called > > microgenesis/ontogenesis. > > > > Compensatorily yours. > > mike > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:15 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Mike likes a discussion to be, as Bernstein put it, well framed and > well > > > classified; or at least he likes the threads to be well disentangled > and > > > properly subject lined. But perhaps we shouldn't give up on the "The > > > Prototyping Mind" too quickly! As you can see from Molly's careful > > perusal > > > and forceful restatement of Zaza's major themes, there is still a lot > in > > > Zaza's prototyping bin to talk about. > > > > > > The one that interests me, that I think is relevant to the > "microgenesis" > > > thread, is what learning means when it means adapting to > > anti-development. > > > For example, there are undoubtedly work-arounds that people use when > > their > > > higher psychological functions start to shut down (I watched my mother > do > > > quite a few of these, addressing everyone as "you" instead of using > > names, > > > reacting to novel situations with a delight which effectively hides her > > > astonishment, and above all refraining from trying to understand the > > > reasons for present situations). > > > > > > Similarly, there are ontogenetic work-arounds that people use when > > > commodity production shuts down. But in both cases, we have a kind of > > > development which forgoes time's arrow; we have a notion of development > > > that works backwards and forwards (like the laws of physics as opposed > to > > > the laws of thermodynamics). I won't say that suggests relativism (that > > > would be, I think, too moralistic an argument, and it is a rabbit hole > we > > > have been down already anyway). But it suggests an atomism that I > > disagree > > > with (in addition to eschewing time, the laws of physics don't combine > > > matter and meaning the way that the laws of thermodynamics do!) > > > > > > Mike has offered Franklin as an example of a Zoped before (I remember > > once > > > thinking that he directed it to ME as a way of getting ME to think a > bit > > > about listening to others on this list, but in fact he's used it in > print > > > on at least one occasion). Whenever he offers it, he does the exact > > > opposite of what he usually does with xmca threads: instead of asking > us > > to > > > disentangle threads, he invites us to combine them. Franklin is > learning > > > (to listen to others). But he is also developing, on at least three > > counts: > > > by learning to listen to others, he is acquiring new forms of meaning > > > potential; by learning to recognize himself when it is "played back" to > > > him, he is acquiring a new form of reflecting on experience; and (this > is > > > the one I really want to talk about) he is learning that play is not > > simply > > > the manipulation of objects but also the manipulation of social roles > > > according to abstract rules (such as reciprocity and mutuality). > > > > > > Now, you can see that I'm trying to disentangle things that are not > > really > > > that distinct (reciprocity is really a form of serial mutuality, and > both > > > of them are simply abstract forms of listening to others). The Vygotsky > > > lectures I'm working with are a little similar: in his work on the > Crisis > > > at Three (Franklin's Crisis, I suspect), he is trying to disentangle > the > > > "seven stars" of bad behaviour (folk concepts that nursemaids and > mothers > > > use--I notice there is even a Russian Wikipedia page!) from what he > > thinks > > > is the key neoformation of Three, the separation of affect and will. > > > > > > For example, negativism is not just saying "no". It's saying "no" when > > the > > > child really wants to say "yes", because although the child wants to > say > > > "yes", the others in the social milieu also want him to say "yes", and > > the > > > child is more interested in self-assertion than in self-gratification. > > > Obstinacy is not just tenacity. It's actually the negation of > negativism: > > > saying "yes" when the child really wants to "no", or maybe "who > cares?", > > > simply because the child has already said "yes" and once again the > child > > is > > > more interested in will than in affect. And so on. > > > > > > How is this connected with the next zone of development? Perhaps the > next > > > zone of development is preschool, and preschool depends on the > separation > > > of the semantic and the visio-graphic field of action in play. If so, > > > Franklin's ability to interpret the teacher's imitation of his own > > actions > > > is a "trailer" of that next zone of development and no mere act of > > > learning. Or, maybe this is happening in a preschool, and the next > zone > > of > > > development is actually the Crisis at Seven. If so, Franklin's ability > to > > > recognize himself is a "trailer" of the next zone of development: > acting > > a > > > role that is not really a role, but in fact a prototype self. > > > > > > But that's my problem, Molly. What do I do when the prototype self > comes > > to > > > me from the past and not the future? Can we really call this > development? > > > Isn't it really a form of pathogenesis? > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:29 AM, molly shea wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Zaza and Mike, > > > > > > > > My apologies for entering the conversation on Kukiya-kiya late, > > however, > > > > the article was so compelling I feel I should still enter. First, to > > > Zaza, > > > > thank you for writing such a forceful analysis of learning through > > > > prototyping. I especially like the ways in which your analytical lens > > > > included the political dimensions of problem solving and invoking > > > > expertise. There are two ideas within the article that I hope to use > > and > > > > extend in my work as well, and a question for Zaza, Mike, and others > at > > > the > > > > end of my second musing. > > > > > > > > The first is your discussion of disinheritance as *an attention to > > > > materials?a way of looking at materials that allows the beholder to > > > > recognize transience, mutability, intermediateness?that allows > > > Zimbabweans > > > > to employ novel and unexpected ways to act within and around the > > > > constraints of their material conditions.* By pointing out the > separate > > > > cognitive practice associated with seeing through disinheritance, the > > > > analysis draws attention to the political dimension of learning. The > > > > possible activities and therefore learning opportunities that arise > > > through > > > > this historical perception change and assumptions about designing > > > learning > > > > environments then shifts with these methods of seeing and using > > > materials. > > > > It also draws another potential distinction between the Maker > Movement > > > and > > > > Kukiya?kiya. The Makers Movement doesn?t necessarily claim a > political > > > > agenda, however, by claiming something a-political or claiming an > > agenda > > > of > > > > advancing technological skills in the name of progress, it has a > > > historical > > > > and political situated set of values that may be in opposition to > those > > > of > > > > Kukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material disinheritance > > > arising > > > > in the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? > (2016) > > > do > > > > a wonderful job of pointing out many of the neoliberal consequences > of > > a > > > > maker movement that does not see the lineage of prototyping expertise > > > > coming from many low-income communities living in ?tight > > circumstances?. > > > > The power of the design of this prototyping project, for me, comes > from > > > > centering local expertise in the design of the learning environment. > > > > Although prototyping is at the center of both ?making? and > > ?kukiya?kiya? > > > > practices, it seems the political sense making between settings > > couldn?t > > > be > > > > more different. Even within the Zaza paper, the participants question > > how > > > > invention might or might not lead to liberation. I appreciate Zaza's > > > > attention to how participants questioned invention and business > acumen > > > as a > > > > means to ?extricate Zimbabwe from its economic quandary?. A lesser > > > > researcher may have ignored this comment as outside of the design > > process > > > > and therefore the data set to be analyzed. > > > > > > > > The second idea, related to the political dimensions of cognition > that > > > are > > > > often overlooked, is your analysis of gender and expertise in the > > design > > > > process. I am struck by how the performance of gender and > > > design-expertise > > > > came in the form of whispers and informal conversations about > > hand-bags. > > > It > > > > would be great to have more analysis like this one where gender > > networks > > > > inform design. In fact, it seems gender (man/woman/trans/other) is > > always > > > > informing design, but perhaps performance of expertise that is > cis-male > > > is > > > > sometimes confused with having expertise at all. You analysis offers > > more > > > > nuance about other kinds of performance of expertise. I wonder if > > > > discussions about hand-bags creates the intimacy necessary to share > > > > female-cis gendered understandings of design problems. I would love > to > > > hear > > > > your thinking on this matter. > > > > > > > > Again, thank you for your work and for the insights that this article > > has > > > > provided me. > > > > > > > > - Molly Shea > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:46 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of Zaza's > > paper > > > > > (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any > > time), I > > > > > feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. > > > > > > > > > > I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, but > as > > > > life > > > > > allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in at > > > least > > > > > some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. > > > > > > > > > > So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It addresses > (I > > > > > believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a child > > is > > > "a > > > > > head taller than herself." > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my > > > > interpretation > > > > > of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about the > > zoped > > > > and > > > > > play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic implications. > > > > > > > > > > See what you think. its 4 pages long. > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I > might > > > > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may > also > > > be > > > > a > > > > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > > > > evolution > > > > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > > > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone > > of > > > > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer > > > than I > > > > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very > > good > > > > > idea > > > > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for > > > "development" > > > > > and > > > > > > not for learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in > > the > > > > what > > > > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, > we > > > are > > > > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an > > > interpersonal > > > > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very > > > often > > > > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that > have > > > > > nothing > > > > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally > rooted. > > > > > Thirdly, > > > > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing > > before > > > we > > > > > go > > > > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand > > what > > > > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to > our > > > > > teaching > > > > > > needs. > > > > > > > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at > > Three", > > > > > part > > > > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > > > > Collected > > > > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > > > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? > > ??????-???? > > > > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? > ???????????????? > > > > > ???????? > > > > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > > > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > > > > ???????????, > > > > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? > > ??????????. ? > > > > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? > > > ?????????? > > > > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all > the > > > > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may > be > > > > > grouped > > > > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > > > > Consequently, > > > > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very > > least > > > > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > > > > appointed > > > > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > > > > afterwards > > > > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral > > > lines > > > > > of > > > > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate > the > > > > > critical > > > > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal > development, > > > > i.e. > > > > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > > > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the > > > child's > > > > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > > > > development, > > > > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and > > > learning. > > > > > He > > > > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to > > avoid > > > > it: > > > > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on > Ganzheitpsychologie > > > > that > > > > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we > > need > > > > to > > > > > do > > > > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > > > > > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > > > > > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but > > about > > > > > > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > > > > component > > > > > > > for sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow > students > > to > > > > go > > > > > > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of > > > development > > > > > > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind > > of > > > > > > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very > > narrow > > > > > > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me > > from > > > > > > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature > > > presents > > > > > > > many problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm > talking > > > > > about. > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I > think > > > > there > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a > distortion > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not > ontogenesis. I > > > > think > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that > > were > > > > > > picked > > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of > > > development". > > > > > But > > > > > > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, > there > > > > > hasn't > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the > > > idea > > > > > > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done > > by > > > > the > > > > > > > child > > > > > > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is > > just > > > > too > > > > > > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. > > Secondly, > > > > > there > > > > > > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next > zone > > of > > > > > > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > > > > lectures, > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > > > > lectures: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > > > > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English > version, > > > > 1998: > > > > > > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on > > replacing > > > > > > "test" > > > > > > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" > > > with > > > > > > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and > > total > > > > > > > nonsense. > > > > > > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is > > NOT > > > > > > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > > > > infinitely > > > > > > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > > > > mediation, > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted > > > from > > > > > its > > > > > > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's > method: > > > for > > > > > > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but > > function > > > > MUST > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two > > > children. > > > > > One > > > > > > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is > simply > > > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the > > second > > > > > does > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right > > > > functional > > > > > > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) > > while > > > > the > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of > > learning > > > > > > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that > means > > > > that > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a > whole > > > lot > > > > > > > easier > > > > > > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and > the > > > > > future > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a > weird > > > > > > inversion > > > > > > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the > > future > > > > is > > > > > > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> David, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to > > > spot a > > > > > > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > > > > urbanistic > > > > > > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no > > > longer > > > > > > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive > to > > > that > > > > > > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > > > > challenge > > > > > of > > > > > > > >> oral utterances. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > > > > > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written > > words > > > > > when > > > > > > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the > Japanese > > > > > > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Best > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > > > > > > linguistics or > > > > > > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > > > > > sociogenetic, > > > > > > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's > wonderful > > > > > article > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it > > > would > > > > > > help > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > > > > microgenetic > > > > > > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" > was > > > > around > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > > > > constant > > > > > > > >> feature > > > > > > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > > > > associated > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term > > and > > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, > Koffka, > > > > Lewin, > > > > > > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem > > to > > > > use > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> term > > > > > > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > > > > psychology > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > > > > > denounces > > > > > > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > > > > > Psychoneurology". I > > > > > > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > > > > external > > > > > > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", > > > calls > > > > > his > > > > > > > >> "micro" > > > > > > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed > to > > > > > > > biological, > > > > > > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. > At > > a > > > > > > > particular > > > > > > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual > > high > > > > > > > fidelity > > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if > she > > > > sees > > > > > > that > > > > > > > >> her > > > > > > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > > > > > meaning. > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: > > the > > > > > > specific > > > > > > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. > > > Microgenesis > > > > is > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > >> you > > > > > > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you > > are > > > > > > reading > > > > > > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > an > > > > object > > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 19 17:30:54 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 17:30:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A note on formatting. I left David's formatting in place to illustrate the problem I was referring to and which Ed commented on. When I went and fetched the Angelus Novus quotation, I first copied from a PDF, then put into word to get reasonable font size, and the cut and pasted it into my message. By cutting and pasting from word into gmail I created exactly the runover lines that David, Michael and others are manifesting. Might it be for the same reason? I do not recall this problem from either David or Michael in earlier times. A local pathogenesis? On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 5:27 PM, mike cole wrote: > I did not intend to demean your mother's situation, David. > And the following makes your examples concrete: > > I think that the three > strategies I gave you (pronouns, delight that masks astonishment, and > avoiding explanations) really are rooted in the lower psychological > functions and not in higher functions:* pronominal meaning can be simply* > > > > > *indicative rather than nominative, delight is an example of her > inabilityto divide affect from will, and avoiding "why" is an example of > the loss ofsemantic meaning and reliance on the visual purview alone. The > last time Itook language samples from her, they were comparable to those of > a two yearold. * > > But if one adopts your view, why do you liken the deteriorization of her > higher psychological functions to the kind of work around > illustrated by prototyping under difficult conditions? > > *Perhaps its because you view sociogenesis as "the very* > *opposite: public health, compulsory education, and the knowledge that > it? is precisely our ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the > very? young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for > everybody,and not simply the very young and very old.* > > *?*With respect to public health the evidence I know of indicate that the > agricultural revolution, and subsequent urbanization led to a > deteriorization of life expectancy and health for the population as a whole > (however much it benefited the elites). *?*(As a priveleged member of the > privileged classes I would have been dead several times in the last couple > of decades had it not been for modern medicine-- my younger brother died 40 > years before me of pancreatitis which is now routinely treatable). > > > The high high and highest level of civilization of Germany in 1930 did > nothing to prevent the rise of Hitler and its aftermath -- and we can see > that scenario playing out daily in the US at present,,,, hopefully to a > different conclusion. > > With respect to the microgenesis/ontogeny issue, I gave yet to figure out > the source of your confidence in their dissimilarity. I brought up Franklin > in the blocks (again - its a part of your ontogeny but not that of most who > participate on xmca at present) because it seems to be an example of > microgenesis-as-developmental change. > > With respect to the idea that humans now exhibit the > ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the very > ? > young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for everybody,*and > not simply the very young and very old.* > *? ?-- *I really am not sure > what you are referring to. > > As always, your ideas are interesting and enlightening, even when I do not > properly understand them. Exhibiting my ignorance has the virtue of > provoking the conditions for deeper understanding. My likening your > mother's loss of semantic meaning to my (so far normal) "senior moments" > did not envision an (almost) total loss of functions, higher and lower by > Vygotky's reckoning. It is as if the multiple layers of history to be seen > in Rome were reduced by war and weather to the bottom-most stratum of the > pre-Etruscan. > > ?mike? > > PS-- With regard to cultural-historical/societal genesis Benjamin's > Angelus Novus often comes to mind. > > A Klee painting "Angelus Novus" shows an angel looking as though he is > about to move away from something he is fixedly contemplating. His eyes are > staring, his mouth is open, his wings are spread. This is how one pictures > the > > angel of history. His face is turned toward the past. Where we perceive a > chain > ? > of events, he sees one single > ? > catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage upon > ? > > wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The an > ? ? > gel would like to stay, awaken > ? > the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing > ? > from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such violence that the > angel > ? > can no longer close them. This storm irresistibly propels him into the > future > ? > to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows > skyward. > > This storm is what we call progress. (pp. 257-58) > > > > ?? > > > PS-- > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 3:15 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > >> Mike: >> >> My mother was a psychologist too--like you, trained as a behaviourist, but >> unlike you she got off into Piaget in the early sixties. Then she moved on >> to other things: she wrote a biography of Ada, Countess of Lovelace, which >> was published by MIT Press and got her some notoriety, mostly because she >> showed that Byron's daughter, who everyone has assumed to be a kind of >> feminist icon and the world's first computer programmer, didn't actually >> know any mathematics! She told me a lot about Piaget and Lawrence Kohlberg >> (who she briefly studied with). But I was unable to interest her in >> Vygotsky or in cultural historical psychology: she saw it, perhaps >> correctly, as nothing more than an attempt to prolong what she considered >> the crazy Bolshevism of my youth. >> >> Herr first response to losing her higher mental functions (when we walked >> to the Tate Art Gallery near her home in London and she forgot her way >> home) was simply horror. She went through a difficult period of terrors >> (curiously, mostly concerned with money, of which she still has a great >> deal more than she needs). Now she has stabilized (and she is actually >> much >> happier than I ever remember her). But she has completely forgotten that >> she ever had children, doesn't know her age or history, and also lacks >> control over basic physiological functions. I think that the three >> strategies I gave you (pronouns, delight that masks astonishment, and >> avoiding explanations) really are rooted in the lower psychological >> functions and not in higher functions: pronominal meaning can be simply >> indicative rather than nominative, delight is an example of her inability >> to divide affect from will, and avoiding "why" is an example of the loss >> of >> semantic meaning and reliance on the visual purview alone. The last time I >> took language samples from her, they were comparable to those of a two >> year >> old. >> >> Unfortunately is the word! And yet...perhaps this is something else we can >> all learn from Vygotsky. I don't just mean the way he faced death: he died >> young, at the very height of his powers, and he had been practicing dying >> for the whole of his adult life, so the comparison with my mother is >> manifestly unfair. I mean first of all the way that Vygotsky really does >> use "pathogenesis", not as a new form of development but rather as a way >> of >> examining the real prior processes of development (which, as a Spinozan, >> he >> believed always involved the expansion of potential rather than its >> contraction). That's why Vygotsky ends almost every single chapter in the >> second part of HDHMF with a pathological example, why never gives up >> on "defektology", and I also think that is why he started studying >> medicine >> even when he knew there was no hope for himself: it offers a way of >> looking >> at the lower layers of development and how they subtend or fail to subtend >> the higher ones. >> >> The second thing, though, was what I think he discovered through his >> pathogenetic analyses: that there is a very real difference between >> phylogenesis and sociogenesis, between sociogenesis and ontogenesis...and >> also, as I am now quite sure, between ontogenesis and microgenesis. In >> phylogenesis: descent through modification--i.e. through the ruthless >> destruction of individuals and whole species. In sociogenesis, the very >> opposite: public health, compulsory education, and the knowledge that it >> is precisely our ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the very >> young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for >> everybody, >> and not simply the very young and very old. The end of ontogenesis is not >> simply death--it is the decline that it inevitable after roughly the age >> that Vygotsky died. But with literacy, we are able to pass on our very >> best >> to the next generation. I don't know if Vygotsky really believed that >> these >> last lectures of his would be translated and read by thousands of teachers >> in some totally foreign land eight decades after his death--he believed >> in internationalism, so I think it's at least possible that he did. But >> whether he believed it or not, that is what is going to happen, and it's >> why I think that cultural-historical psychologists, unlike Piagetians, can >> face decline and death with a certain equanimity and acceptance. >> >> But it is also why I'm not really sure that Dorothy Kellogg Stein's >> biography of Ada Lovelace was such a terrible mistake, Mike. When I take >> it >> off the shelf and read it, I can still hear her voice, feel her >> razor-like >> intellect, and even remonstrate with her individualistic and biologizing >> psychology. When I go and actually visit her at Lord Wandsworth's Home for >> Aging Jewry in Clapham I cannot. >> >> David Kellogg >> Macquarie University >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:17 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >> > David - >> > >> > I think it is unfortunate to link workarounds with a loss of higher >> > psychological functions. Again, it seems like ontogeny recapitulates >> > history. The end of ontogeny is death. Ditto history? >> > >> > By any account I can think of, your mother is using higher higher >> > psychological functions to work around the inability to retrieve >> vocabulary >> > at a conventional level of abstraction. I am of an age where the same >> > problem can be noticed. Nice that I can, for the time being, understand >> > enough to be able to study development in decline in real life in >> addition >> > to experiencing it. Hmm, that means I have some higher higher functions >> to >> > draw upon! >> > >> > In our own work, the workarounds needed to solve the failure of a >> gifted, >> > "promising" technology under high pressure to succeed created both a >> > successful product and resulted in productive education for all >> involved. >> > >> > To me, a great example of pathogenisis is the use of the highly >> developed, >> > highly admired, highly financed, digital technologies of cyberspace. >> > Clearly an advance over atomic bombs- cleaner, faster, more efficient. >> > >> > Where I think there is something distinctly unusual in Zaza's >> prototyping >> > example is that the prototyping itself, even if it >> > had been accomplishable easily with strong technological/resource >> backing, >> > is a work around for the inability to confront directly the cultural >> > beliefs that make it shameful for a woman with HIV to bottle feed her >> baby. >> > We rarely discuss the power of cultural norms in constraining cultural >> > change even when the current practices threaten reproduction of the >> social >> > group. It seems, perhaps, an intractable problem. The US appears unable >> to >> > give up on putting water in disposable plastic bottles. Pathogenesis? >> > >> > I'll follow my habit of sorting things out by responding vis a vis >> > Franklin in Larry's note below. I will respond on a thread called >> > microgenesis/ontogenesis. >> > >> > Compensatorily yours. >> > mike >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:15 PM, David Kellogg >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Mike likes a discussion to be, as Bernstein put it, well framed and >> well >> > > classified; or at least he likes the threads to be well disentangled >> and >> > > properly subject lined. But perhaps we shouldn't give up on the "The >> > > Prototyping Mind" too quickly! As you can see from Molly's careful >> > perusal >> > > and forceful restatement of Zaza's major themes, there is still a lot >> in >> > > Zaza's prototyping bin to talk about. >> > > >> > > The one that interests me, that I think is relevant to the >> "microgenesis" >> > > thread, is what learning means when it means adapting to >> > anti-development. >> > > For example, there are undoubtedly work-arounds that people use when >> > their >> > > higher psychological functions start to shut down (I watched my >> mother do >> > > quite a few of these, addressing everyone as "you" instead of using >> > names, >> > > reacting to novel situations with a delight which effectively hides >> her >> > > astonishment, and above all refraining from trying to understand the >> > > reasons for present situations). >> > > >> > > Similarly, there are ontogenetic work-arounds that people use when >> > > commodity production shuts down. But in both cases, we have a kind of >> > > development which forgoes time's arrow; we have a notion of >> development >> > > that works backwards and forwards (like the laws of physics as >> opposed to >> > > the laws of thermodynamics). I won't say that suggests relativism >> (that >> > > would be, I think, too moralistic an argument, and it is a rabbit >> hole we >> > > have been down already anyway). But it suggests an atomism that I >> > disagree >> > > with (in addition to eschewing time, the laws of physics don't combine >> > > matter and meaning the way that the laws of thermodynamics do!) >> > > >> > > Mike has offered Franklin as an example of a Zoped before (I remember >> > once >> > > thinking that he directed it to ME as a way of getting ME to think a >> bit >> > > about listening to others on this list, but in fact he's used it in >> print >> > > on at least one occasion). Whenever he offers it, he does the exact >> > > opposite of what he usually does with xmca threads: instead of asking >> us >> > to >> > > disentangle threads, he invites us to combine them. Franklin is >> learning >> > > (to listen to others). But he is also developing, on at least three >> > counts: >> > > by learning to listen to others, he is acquiring new forms of meaning >> > > potential; by learning to recognize himself when it is "played back" >> to >> > > him, he is acquiring a new form of reflecting on experience; and >> (this is >> > > the one I really want to talk about) he is learning that play is not >> > simply >> > > the manipulation of objects but also the manipulation of social roles >> > > according to abstract rules (such as reciprocity and mutuality). >> > > >> > > Now, you can see that I'm trying to disentangle things that are not >> > really >> > > that distinct (reciprocity is really a form of serial mutuality, and >> both >> > > of them are simply abstract forms of listening to others). The >> Vygotsky >> > > lectures I'm working with are a little similar: in his work on the >> Crisis >> > > at Three (Franklin's Crisis, I suspect), he is trying to disentangle >> the >> > > "seven stars" of bad behaviour (folk concepts that nursemaids and >> mothers >> > > use--I notice there is even a Russian Wikipedia page!) from what he >> > thinks >> > > is the key neoformation of Three, the separation of affect and will. >> > > >> > > For example, negativism is not just saying "no". It's saying "no" when >> > the >> > > child really wants to say "yes", because although the child wants to >> say >> > > "yes", the others in the social milieu also want him to say "yes", and >> > the >> > > child is more interested in self-assertion than in self-gratification. >> > > Obstinacy is not just tenacity. It's actually the negation of >> negativism: >> > > saying "yes" when the child really wants to "no", or maybe "who >> cares?", >> > > simply because the child has already said "yes" and once again the >> child >> > is >> > > more interested in will than in affect. And so on. >> > > >> > > How is this connected with the next zone of development? Perhaps the >> next >> > > zone of development is preschool, and preschool depends on the >> separation >> > > of the semantic and the visio-graphic field of action in play. If so, >> > > Franklin's ability to interpret the teacher's imitation of his own >> > actions >> > > is a "trailer" of that next zone of development and no mere act of >> > > learning. Or, maybe this is happening in a preschool, and the next >> zone >> > of >> > > development is actually the Crisis at Seven. If so, Franklin's >> ability to >> > > recognize himself is a "trailer" of the next zone of development: >> acting >> > a >> > > role that is not really a role, but in fact a prototype self. >> > > >> > > But that's my problem, Molly. What do I do when the prototype self >> comes >> > to >> > > me from the past and not the future? Can we really call this >> development? >> > > Isn't it really a form of pathogenesis? >> > > >> > > David Kellogg >> > > Macquarie University >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:29 AM, molly shea wrote: >> > > >> > > > Dear Zaza and Mike, >> > > > >> > > > My apologies for entering the conversation on Kukiya-kiya late, >> > however, >> > > > the article was so compelling I feel I should still enter. First, to >> > > Zaza, >> > > > thank you for writing such a forceful analysis of learning through >> > > > prototyping. I especially like the ways in which your analytical >> lens >> > > > included the political dimensions of problem solving and invoking >> > > > expertise. There are two ideas within the article that I hope to use >> > and >> > > > extend in my work as well, and a question for Zaza, Mike, and >> others at >> > > the >> > > > end of my second musing. >> > > > >> > > > The first is your discussion of disinheritance as *an attention to >> > > > materials?a way of looking at materials that allows the beholder to >> > > > recognize transience, mutability, intermediateness?that allows >> > > Zimbabweans >> > > > to employ novel and unexpected ways to act within and around the >> > > > constraints of their material conditions.* By pointing out the >> separate >> > > > cognitive practice associated with seeing through disinheritance, >> the >> > > > analysis draws attention to the political dimension of learning. The >> > > > possible activities and therefore learning opportunities that arise >> > > through >> > > > this historical perception change and assumptions about designing >> > > learning >> > > > environments then shifts with these methods of seeing and using >> > > materials. >> > > > It also draws another potential distinction between the Maker >> Movement >> > > and >> > > > Kukiya?kiya. The Makers Movement doesn?t necessarily claim a >> political >> > > > agenda, however, by claiming something a-political or claiming an >> > agenda >> > > of >> > > > advancing technological skills in the name of progress, it has a >> > > historical >> > > > and political situated set of values that may be in opposition to >> those >> > > of >> > > > Kukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material disinheritance >> > > arising >> > > > in the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? >> (2016) >> > > do >> > > > a wonderful job of pointing out many of the neoliberal consequences >> of >> > a >> > > > maker movement that does not see the lineage of prototyping >> expertise >> > > > coming from many low-income communities living in ?tight >> > circumstances?. >> > > > The power of the design of this prototyping project, for me, comes >> from >> > > > centering local expertise in the design of the learning environment. >> > > > Although prototyping is at the center of both ?making? and >> > ?kukiya?kiya? >> > > > practices, it seems the political sense making between settings >> > couldn?t >> > > be >> > > > more different. Even within the Zaza paper, the participants >> question >> > how >> > > > invention might or might not lead to liberation. I appreciate Zaza's >> > > > attention to how participants questioned invention and business >> acumen >> > > as a >> > > > means to ?extricate Zimbabwe from its economic quandary?. A lesser >> > > > researcher may have ignored this comment as outside of the design >> > process >> > > > and therefore the data set to be analyzed. >> > > > >> > > > The second idea, related to the political dimensions of cognition >> that >> > > are >> > > > often overlooked, is your analysis of gender and expertise in the >> > design >> > > > process. I am struck by how the performance of gender and >> > > design-expertise >> > > > came in the form of whispers and informal conversations about >> > hand-bags. >> > > It >> > > > would be great to have more analysis like this one where gender >> > networks >> > > > inform design. In fact, it seems gender (man/woman/trans/other) is >> > always >> > > > informing design, but perhaps performance of expertise that is >> cis-male >> > > is >> > > > sometimes confused with having expertise at all. You analysis offers >> > more >> > > > nuance about other kinds of performance of expertise. I wonder if >> > > > discussions about hand-bags creates the intimacy necessary to share >> > > > female-cis gendered understandings of design problems. I would love >> to >> > > hear >> > > > your thinking on this matter. >> > > > >> > > > Again, thank you for your work and for the insights that this >> article >> > has >> > > > provided me. >> > > > >> > > > - Molly Shea >> > > > >> > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:46 PM, mike cole wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of Zaza's >> > paper >> > > > > (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any >> > time), I >> > > > > feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. >> > > > > >> > > > > I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, >> but as >> > > > life >> > > > > allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in at >> > > least >> > > > > some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. >> > > > > >> > > > > So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It >> addresses (I >> > > > > believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a >> child >> > is >> > > "a >> > > > > head taller than herself." >> > > > > >> > > > > Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my >> > > > interpretation >> > > > > of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about the >> > zoped >> > > > and >> > > > > play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic implications. >> > > > > >> > > > > See what you think. its 4 pages long. >> > > > > mike >> > > > > >> > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg < >> dkellogg60@gmail.com >> > > >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > Arturo: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I >> might >> > > > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may >> also >> > > be >> > > > a >> > > > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal >> > > > > evolution >> > > > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the >> > > > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a >> zone >> > of >> > > > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer >> > > than I >> > > > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very >> > good >> > > > > idea >> > > > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for >> > > "development" >> > > > > and >> > > > > > not for learning. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in >> > the >> > > > what >> > > > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes >> it, we >> > > are >> > > > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an >> > > interpersonal >> > > > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning >> very >> > > often >> > > > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that >> have >> > > > > nothing >> > > > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally >> rooted. >> > > > > Thirdly, >> > > > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing >> > before >> > > we >> > > > > go >> > > > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand >> > what >> > > > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to >> our >> > > > > teaching >> > > > > > needs. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at >> > Three", >> > > > > part >> > > > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the >> > > > > Collected >> > > > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? >> ???????, >> > > > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? >> > ??????-???? >> > > > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? >> > > > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? >> ???????????????? >> > > > > ???????? >> > > > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? >> ?????? >> > > > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? >> > > > > ???????????, >> > > > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? >> > ??????????. ? >> > > > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? >> > > ?????????? >> > > > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. >> > > > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all >> the >> > > > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may >> be >> > > > > grouped >> > > > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. >> > > > Consequently, >> > > > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very >> > least >> > > > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this >> > > > appointed >> > > > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear >> > > > afterwards >> > > > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and >> peripheral >> > > lines >> > > > > of >> > > > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate >> the >> > > > > critical >> > > > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal >> development, >> > > > i.e. >> > > > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to >> the >> > > > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some >> > > > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the >> > > child's >> > > > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual >> > > > development, >> > > > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and >> > > learning. >> > > > > He >> > > > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to >> > avoid >> > > > it: >> > > > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on >> Ganzheitpsychologie >> > > > that >> > > > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we >> > need >> > > > to >> > > > > do >> > > > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the >> > ZPD. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > David Kellogg >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Macquarie University >> > > > > > . >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < >> > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Thank you for this David. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not >> have >> > > > > > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the >> > > > > > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but >> > about >> > > > > > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning >> > > > component >> > > > > > > for sure. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow >> students >> > to >> > > > go >> > > > > > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of >> > > development >> > > > > > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the >> kind >> > of >> > > > > > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very >> > narrow >> > > > > > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me >> > from >> > > > > > > doing large longitudinal studies. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature >> > > presents >> > > > > > > many problems. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Arturo >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg < >> dkellogg60@gmail.com >> > > >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > Arturo: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm >> talking >> > > > > about. >> > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I >> think >> > > > there >> > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a >> distortion >> > > of >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > ZPD. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not >> ontogenesis. I >> > > > think >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that >> > were >> > > > > > picked >> > > > > > > up >> > > > > > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of >> > > development". >> > > > > But >> > > > > > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, >> there >> > > > > hasn't >> > > > > > > been >> > > > > > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and >> the >> > > idea >> > > > > > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be >> done >> > by >> > > > the >> > > > > > > child >> > > > > > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is >> > just >> > > > too >> > > > > > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. >> > Secondly, >> > > > > there >> > > > > > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next >> zone >> > of >> > > > > > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological >> > > > lectures, >> > > > > > but >> > > > > > > > these haven't been translated yet). >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's >> > > > > interesting >> > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological >> > > > lectures: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ >> > > > > > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English >> version, >> > > > 1998: >> > > > > > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on >> > replacing >> > > > > > "test" >> > > > > > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace >> "diagnostic" >> > > with >> > > > > > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and >> > total >> > > > > > > nonsense. >> > > > > > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD >> is >> > NOT >> > > > > > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is >> > > > infinitely >> > > > > > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of >> > > > > mediation, >> > > > > > > can >> > > > > > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely >> adopted >> > > from >> > > > > its >> > > > > > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's >> method: >> > > for >> > > > > > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but >> > function >> > > > MUST >> > > > > > be >> > > > > > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two >> > > children. >> > > > > One >> > > > > > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is >> simply >> > > > that >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the >> > second >> > > > > does >> > > > > > > not. >> > > > > > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right >> > > > functional >> > > > > > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) >> > while >> > > > the >> > > > > > > other >> > > > > > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of >> > learning >> > > > > > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that >> means >> > > > that >> > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a >> whole >> > > lot >> > > > > > > easier >> > > > > > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and >> the >> > > > > future >> > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a >> weird >> > > > > > inversion >> > > > > > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the >> > future >> > > > is >> > > > > > > > intrinsically non-determinable. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > David Kellogg >> > > > > > > > Macquarie University >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < >> > > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> >> > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> David, >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to >> > > spot a >> > > > > > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to >> > > > urbanistic >> > > > > > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no >> > > longer >> > > > > > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive >> to >> > > that >> > > > > > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual >> > > > challenge >> > > > > of >> > > > > > > >> oral utterances. >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their >> linguistic >> > > > > > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written >> > words >> > > > > when >> > > > > > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the >> Japanese >> > > > > > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> Best >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> Arturo Escand?n >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg < >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com >> > > > >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in >> applied >> > > > > > > linguistics or >> > > > > > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, >> > > > > > sociogenetic, >> > > > > > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's >> wonderful >> > > > > article >> > > > > > > on >> > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that >> it >> > > would >> > > > > > help >> > > > > > > us >> > > > > > > >> to >> > > > > > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and >> > > > > microgenetic >> > > > > > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" >> was >> > > > around >> > > > > > > when >> > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a >> > > > constant >> > > > > > > >> feature >> > > > > > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly >> > > > associated >> > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > >> the >> > > > > > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term >> > and >> > > > > > doesn't >> > > > > > > use >> > > > > > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, >> Koffka, >> > > > Lewin, >> > > > > > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't >> seem >> > to >> > > > use >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > >> term >> > > > > > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi >> > > > > psychology >> > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, >> > > > > denounces >> > > > > > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in >> > > > > > > Psychoneurology". I >> > > > > > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates >> > > > external >> > > > > > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", >> > > calls >> > > > > his >> > > > > > > >> "micro" >> > > > > > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed >> to >> > > > > > > biological, >> > > > > > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. >> At >> > a >> > > > > > > particular >> > > > > > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual >> > high >> > > > > > > fidelity >> > > > > > > >> and >> > > > > > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if >> she >> > > > sees >> > > > > > that >> > > > > > > >> her >> > > > > > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to >> perceptual >> > > > > meaning. >> > > > > > > But >> > > > > > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: >> > the >> > > > > > specific >> > > > > > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. >> > > Microgenesis >> > > > is >> > > > > > > what >> > > > > > > >> you >> > > > > > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when >> you >> > are >> > > > > > reading >> > > > > > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > David Kellogg >> > > > > > > >> > Macquarie University >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > -- >> > > > > >> > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >> an >> > > > object >> > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >> > that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > >> > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 19:29:04 2016 From: zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com (Zaza Kabayadondo) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 22:29:04 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> References: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> Message-ID: Thank you for sharing Vossoughi, Harper and Escud?'s paper on the appropriation of "making" in schools. I'm adding this to my syllabus for next semester! I agree with Mike, Peg and Molly's suggestion that there seems to be a natural affinity between the AT in CHAT and prototyping. On the topic of production and consumption: the potency in prototyping lies in the contexts for prototyping where learners/prototypers realize there are alternative subject positions for them to occupy. Through prototyping they start to shift from seeing their relationship to the material world as one of consumption to seeing the role they can play as producers. Often this role is subversive, and therein lies the difference between kukiya-kiya (and the glossary of similar terms, jailbreaking etc) and maker movement. So I guess, what I'm concerned with here is the difference in subject positions associated with consumption and production. Kukiya-kiya is a situated, emergent, form of activity that responds to and evolves with political context of subjects who are excluded or disinherited (kukiya-kiya) while Maker movement (making as a form of club activity celebrated for its liberatory potential) at least in its present form, mostly entails activity that is sanitized from all political inflection and with little proffered in the form of recourse for justice, equity, access, ownership of the material. If both are meant to equip learners with a way of thinking about materials as a form of access to things, processes, systems they do not have access to, kukiya-kiya does so without making to much of itself while making (of the maker movement) is all pomp and little sense of "how is this useful to me in my situation [of disinheritance]" for individual learners. On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:15 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > My off the top of my head, Michael, is that in part information is being > consumed - as well as shared feelings of success, or frustration, or good > cheer. > > Perhaps, even in a Batesonian-way. Imminent mind is being both produced > and consumed. > > And of course, to consume can also be an example of full engagement > (consumed with interest) and the root is "to take up". > > Some thoughts. > > Phillip > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > Original Message > From: mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > Hell, Peg -- I cannot get my tomatoes to grow in the odd weather we have > had this summer, let alone get them to market. Pretty much can be said for > my scholarly efforts as well! > > I have been mulling over why prototyping and CHAT appear to have a kind of > natural affinity. I am speculating at the moment that both are focused on > production, and the AT part of CHAT is very clearly focused on production. > Just think of the activities of those who attend, say, ISCAR. > > But production is intimately (dare I say dialectically?) related to > consumption. Where is the good CHAT scholarship on the Foodie movement? > What is being consumed in an activity-centered classroom or a developmental > work research change lab? Seems worth inquiring about. > mike > > mike > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and preferred) > > spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found "jerry-built" as > > another term. > > (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it "jerry-rigged"). > > > > These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, simultaneously has > > connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I could > say > > why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - Ikea > hacking). > > > > "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking your > > iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and rebuild it for > > some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who was > > building an online educational credentialing website that used the phrase > > "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but I > support > > the idea in principle). > > > > Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... > > > > -greg > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve and it > seems > > > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. It is in > > > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other languages: > > > > > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I should add > that > > > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a little bit > > clumsy > > > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat derisive > way > > to > > > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat different > > from > > > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and haste and > > > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has something to do > > with > > > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" manufacture > in > > > the U.S. > > > > > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with different > > > cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. kukiya-kiya. > > > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker movement has > > > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to recover one's > > > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx reference > (and > > > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a kukiya-kiya > attempt > > to > > > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that they > > > certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). > > > > > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation of > > necessity > > > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see there on > the > > > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? Or if > this > > > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there actually both > > > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy in > > > creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > > > > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > > > > > Very best, > > > greg > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on > > Kukiya > > >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I > > suggest a > > >> new thread with the title, prototyping. > > >> > > >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by > > Molly. > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > >> object > > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 19 20:07:12 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 20:07:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> Message-ID: It's a virtue when we get multiple voices to join in these discussions, Zara. We're all learning, although there is some evident doubt whether we're developing! Mike On Wednesday, 19 October 2016, Zaza Kabayadondo wrote: > Thank you for sharing Vossoughi, Harper and Escud?'s paper on the > appropriation of "making" in schools. I'm adding this to my syllabus for > next semester! > > I agree with Mike, Peg and Molly's suggestion that there seems to be a > natural affinity between the AT in CHAT and prototyping. > > On the topic of production and consumption: the potency in prototyping lies > in the contexts for prototyping where learners/prototypers realize there > are alternative subject positions for them to occupy. Through prototyping > they start to shift from seeing their relationship to the material world as > one of consumption to seeing the role they can play as producers. Often > this role is subversive, and therein lies the difference between > kukiya-kiya (and the glossary of similar terms, jailbreaking etc) and maker > movement. So I guess, what I'm concerned with here is the difference in > subject positions associated with consumption and production. > > Kukiya-kiya is a situated, emergent, form of activity that responds to and > evolves with political context of subjects who are excluded or disinherited > (kukiya-kiya) while Maker movement (making as a form of club activity > celebrated for its liberatory potential) at least in its present form, > mostly entails activity that is sanitized from all political inflection and > with little proffered in the form of recourse for justice, equity, access, > ownership of the material. If both are meant to equip learners with a way > of thinking about materials as a form of access to things, processes, > systems they do not have access to, kukiya-kiya does so without making to > much of itself while making (of the maker movement) is all pomp and little > sense of "how is this useful to me in my situation [of disinheritance]" for > individual learners. > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:15 PM, White, Phillip < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu > > wrote: > > > My off the top of my head, Michael, is that in part information is being > > consumed - as well as shared feelings of success, or frustration, or good > > cheer. > > > > Perhaps, even in a Batesonian-way. Imminent mind is being both produced > > and consumed. > > > > And of course, to consume can also be an example of full engagement > > (consumed with interest) and the root is "to take up". > > > > Some thoughts. > > > > Phillip > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > > Original Message > > From: mike cole > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:45 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > > > Hell, Peg -- I cannot get my tomatoes to grow in the odd weather we have > > had this summer, let alone get them to market. Pretty much can be said > for > > my scholarly efforts as well! > > > > I have been mulling over why prototyping and CHAT appear to have a kind > of > > natural affinity. I am speculating at the moment that both are focused on > > production, and the AT part of CHAT is very clearly focused on > production. > > Just think of the activities of those who attend, say, ISCAR. > > > > But production is intimately (dare I say dialectically?) related to > > consumption. Where is the good CHAT scholarship on the Foodie movement? > > What is being consumed in an activity-centered classroom or a > developmental > > work research change lab? Seems worth inquiring about. > > mike > > > > mike > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > > > Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and > preferred) > > > spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found "jerry-built" > as > > > another term. > > > (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it "jerry-rigged"). > > > > > > These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, simultaneously has > > > connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I could > > say > > > why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - Ikea > > hacking). > > > > > > "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking your > > > iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and rebuild it > for > > > some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who was > > > building an online educational credentialing website that used the > phrase > > > "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but I > > support > > > the idea in principle). > > > > > > Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve and it > > seems > > > > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. It is in > > > > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other > languages: > > > > > > > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I should add > > that > > > > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a little bit > > > clumsy > > > > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat derisive > > way > > > to > > > > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat > different > > > from > > > > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and haste > and > > > > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has something to do > > > with > > > > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" manufacture > > in > > > > the U.S. > > > > > > > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with different > > > > cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. kukiya-kiya. > > > > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker movement > has > > > > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to recover > one's > > > > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx reference > > (and > > > > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a kukiya-kiya > > attempt > > > to > > > > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that they > > > > certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). > > > > > > > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation of > > > necessity > > > > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see there on > > the > > > > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? Or if > > this > > > > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there actually > both > > > > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy in > > > > creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > > > > > > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > > > > > > > Very best, > > > > greg > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole > wrote: > > > > > > > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on > > > Kukiya > > > >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I > > > suggest a > > > >> new thread with the title, prototyping. > > > >> > > > >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by > > > Molly. > > > >> > > > >> mike > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> > > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > >> object > > > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From arturo.escandon@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 23:21:32 2016 From: arturo.escandon@gmail.com (Arturo Escandon) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 15:21:32 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear David, I am laughing load about your exchange with Mike. Of course I do not discard microgenetic processes at all. Perhaps my "unfortunately" comes from the fact that L2 teaching continuous to be so behaviorist and naive. SLA advocates try to go round the notion of input-output unsuccessfully. These conditions influence my research as any social or production condition does. It is as if one could not abstract of the institutional object set for "learning". What I have done is base my approach on A.A. Leontiev notions of speech activity vis a vis communication activity to determine at least four stages that a learner with no knowledge of a L2 must go through to master it. Those I renamed substructural, structural, functional and rhetorical stages. They all differ in the object of the activity. But none of these stages is reached by one single learning activity. So no microgenetic process can "trigger" mastery. On the contrary, learners need to go through many learning tasks until they develop comprehensive conceptual models for each stage. The developments of those models run against their very understanding of their own L1. It is hard to grasp the actual genesis of that development for the stages cannot be clearly separated one another and because instructions is distributed. You see, learners learn grammar with L1 speakers and conversation with L2 speakers in more or less chaotic and asystematic learning settings. The question is how one can deal with zones which do not have an age crisis that help distinguishing one from the next. Risking deforming the notion of zoped,I still prefer to have some kind of developmental targets and stages rather than basing instruction on an endless chain of learning tasks just to fill teaching time. Thanks for providing those Russian excerpts. All the best. Arturo On 18 October 2016 at 09:33, David Kellogg wrote: > Arturo: > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also be a > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal evolution > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer than I > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good idea > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for "development" and > not for learning. > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the what > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we are > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an interpersonal > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very often > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have nothing > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. Thirdly, > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before we go > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our teaching > needs. > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", part > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the Collected > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? ???????? > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? ???????????, > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????????? > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be grouped > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. Consequently, > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this appointed > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear afterwards > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral lines of > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the critical > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, i.e. > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the child's > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual development, > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and learning. He > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid it: > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie that > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need to do > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > . > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon > wrote: > >> Thank you for this David. >> >> I agree with what you are saying at many levels. >> >> Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have >> significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the >> assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about >> ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning component >> for sure. >> >> My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to go >> beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development >> in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of >> interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow >> and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from >> doing large longitudinal studies. >> >> I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents >> many problems. >> >> >> Arturo >> >> >> On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg wrote: >> > Arturo: >> > >> > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking about. >> > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think there are >> > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of the >> ZPD. >> > >> > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I think the >> > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were picked >> up >> > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". But >> > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there hasn't >> been >> > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea >> > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by the >> child >> > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just too >> > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, there >> > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of >> > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological lectures, but >> > these haven't been translated yet). >> > >> > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's interesting >> to >> > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological lectures: >> > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ >> lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf >> > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf >> > >> > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, 1998: >> > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing "test" >> > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with >> > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total >> nonsense. >> > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT >> > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is infinitely >> > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of mediation, >> can >> > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from its >> > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. >> > >> > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for >> > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function MUST be >> > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. One >> > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply that the >> > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second does >> not. >> > The functional explanation is that the first has the right functional >> > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while the >> other >> > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning >> > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means that they >> > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot >> easier >> > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the future >> are >> > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird inversion >> > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future is >> > intrinsically non-determinable. >> > >> > David Kellogg >> > Macquarie University >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < >> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> David, >> >> >> >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a >> >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to urbanistic >> >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer >> >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that >> >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual challenge of >> >> oral utterances. >> >> >> >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic >> >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words when >> >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese >> >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. >> >> >> >> Best >> >> >> >> >> >> Arturo Escand?n >> >> >> >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg wrote: >> >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied >> linguistics or >> >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, sociogenetic, >> >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful article >> on >> >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would help >> us >> >> to >> >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and microgenetic >> >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). >> >> > >> >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was around >> when >> >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a constant >> >> feature >> >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly associated >> with >> >> the >> >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and doesn't >> use >> >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. >> >> > >> >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, Lewin, >> >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use the >> >> term >> >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi psychology >> and >> >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, denounces >> >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in >> Psychoneurology". I >> >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external >> >> > perception with perceiving meaning. >> >> > >> >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls his >> >> "micro" >> >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to >> biological, >> >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a >> particular >> >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high >> fidelity >> >> and >> >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees that >> >> her >> >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? >> >> > >> >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual meaning. >> But >> >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the specific >> >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis is >> what >> >> you >> >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are reading >> >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). >> >> > >> >> > David Kellogg >> >> > Macquarie University >> >> >> >> >> >> From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Oct 20 09:10:01 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 09:10:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> Message-ID: <5808ec5f.10c0620a.63484.606e@mx.google.com> Phillip, Michael, Mike To say: Consumed can be an example of full engagement and what is being consumed is more than information, what is also being consumed is (shared feelings) to my ears can be related to Michael?s reminder and return to *tools of conviviality* and also to Franklin who with the guidance of Vivian is learning (and developing) democratic spirit. On page 212 of the article by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escude is also explored when they reference Chachra (2015) who juxtaposes the KINDS of human activity that *tend to be* (intend, intentional, intentional/ity as multiple lines) VALUED by the maker movement with the everyday practices that have been the practices of women. These historically practiced ways of making such as: Mending, repairing, teaching, caregoving. The case the article presents is that the making movement may be devaluing and delegitimizing these tools of conviviality. Self-identifying with the maker movement may develop through ones *gestures* (meaning making) a gendered way of moving that exemplifies possible gendered forms of engineering design and educational *products* and *productivity* (notice the ity that to my ears calls forth *inner* meaning) Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Zaza Kabayadondo Sent: October 19, 2016 7:32 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping Thank you for sharing Vossoughi, Harper and Escud?'s paper on the appropriation of "making" in schools. I'm adding this to my syllabus for next semester! I agree with Mike, Peg and Molly's suggestion that there seems to be a natural affinity between the AT in CHAT and prototyping. On the topic of production and consumption: the potency in prototyping lies in the contexts for prototyping where learners/prototypers realize there are alternative subject positions for them to occupy. Through prototyping they start to shift from seeing their relationship to the material world as one of consumption to seeing the role they can play as producers. Often this role is subversive, and therein lies the difference between kukiya-kiya (and the glossary of similar terms, jailbreaking etc) and maker movement. So I guess, what I'm concerned with here is the difference in subject positions associated with consumption and production. Kukiya-kiya is a situated, emergent, form of activity that responds to and evolves with political context of subjects who are excluded or disinherited (kukiya-kiya) while Maker movement (making as a form of club activity celebrated for its liberatory potential) at least in its present form, mostly entails activity that is sanitized from all political inflection and with little proffered in the form of recourse for justice, equity, access, ownership of the material. If both are meant to equip learners with a way of thinking about materials as a form of access to things, processes, systems they do not have access to, kukiya-kiya does so without making to much of itself while making (of the maker movement) is all pomp and little sense of "how is this useful to me in my situation [of disinheritance]" for individual learners. On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:15 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > My off the top of my head, Michael, is that in part information is being > consumed - as well as shared feelings of success, or frustration, or good > cheer. > > Perhaps, even in a Batesonian-way. Imminent mind is being both produced > and consumed. > > And of course, to consume can also be an example of full engagement > (consumed with interest) and the root is "to take up". > > Some thoughts. > > Phillip > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > Original Message > From: mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > Hell, Peg -- I cannot get my tomatoes to grow in the odd weather we have > had this summer, let alone get them to market. Pretty much can be said for > my scholarly efforts as well! > > I have been mulling over why prototyping and CHAT appear to have a kind of > natural affinity. I am speculating at the moment that both are focused on > production, and the AT part of CHAT is very clearly focused on production. > Just think of the activities of those who attend, say, ISCAR. > > But production is intimately (dare I say dialectically?) related to > consumption. Where is the good CHAT scholarship on the Foodie movement? > What is being consumed in an activity-centered classroom or a developmental > work research change lab? Seems worth inquiring about. > mike > > mike > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and preferred) > > spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found "jerry-built" as > > another term. > > (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it "jerry-rigged"). > > > > These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, simultaneously has > > connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I could > say > > why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - Ikea > hacking). > > > > "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking your > > iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and rebuild it for > > some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who was > > building an online educational credentialing website that used the phrase > > "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but I > support > > the idea in principle). > > > > Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... > > > > -greg > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve and it > seems > > > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. It is in > > > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other languages: > > > > > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I should add > that > > > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a little bit > > clumsy > > > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat derisive > way > > to > > > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat different > > from > > > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and haste and > > > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has something to do > > with > > > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" manufacture > in > > > the U.S. > > > > > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with different > > > cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. kukiya-kiya. > > > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker movement has > > > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to recover one's > > > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx reference > (and > > > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a kukiya-kiya > attempt > > to > > > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that they > > > certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). > > > > > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation of > > necessity > > > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see there on > the > > > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? Or if > this > > > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there actually both > > > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy in > > > creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > > > > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > > > > > Very best, > > > greg > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on > > Kukiya > > >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I > > suggest a > > >> new thread with the title, prototyping. > > >> > > >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by > > Molly. > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > >> object > > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Thu Oct 20 11:16:18 2016 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 18:16:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: <5808ec5f.10c0620a.63484.606e@mx.google.com> References: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> , <5808ec5f.10c0620a.63484.606e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: to further support for the case that more is being consumed than information, and conviviality, i quote Jean Lave, from Teaching as Learning - "I began to inquire into just what was being learned by the apprentices, and found that the apprentices were learning many complex "lessons" at once. To name a few: they were learning relations among the major social identities and divisions in Liberian society which they were in the business of dressing. They were learning to make a life, to make a living, to make clothes, to grow old enough, and mature enough to become master tailors, and to see the truth of the respect due to a master of their trade. It seems trivially true that they were never doing only one of these things at a time." Teaching, as Learning. in Practice Jean Lave phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 10:10:01 AM To: Zaza Kabayadondo; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping Phillip, Michael, Mike To say: Consumed can be an example of full engagement and what is being consumed is more than information, what is also being consumed is (shared feelings) to my ears can be related to Michael?s reminder and return to *tools of conviviality* and also to Franklin who with the guidance of Vivian is learning (and developing) democratic spirit. On page 212 of the article by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escude is also explored when they reference Chachra (2015) who juxtaposes the KINDS of human activity that *tend to be* (intend, intentional, intentional/ity as multiple lines) VALUED by the maker movement with the everyday practices that have been the practices of women. These historically practiced ways of making such as: Mending, repairing, teaching, caregoving. The case the article presents is that the making movement may be devaluing and delegitimizing these tools of conviviality. Self-identifying with the maker movement may develop through ones *gestures* (meaning making) a gendered way of moving that exemplifies possible gendered forms of engineering design and educational *products* and *productivity* (notice the ity that to my ears calls forth *inner* meaning) Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Zaza Kabayadondo Sent: October 19, 2016 7:32 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping Thank you for sharing Vossoughi, Harper and Escud?'s paper on the appropriation of "making" in schools. I'm adding this to my syllabus for next semester! I agree with Mike, Peg and Molly's suggestion that there seems to be a natural affinity between the AT in CHAT and prototyping. On the topic of production and consumption: the potency in prototyping lies in the contexts for prototyping where learners/prototypers realize there are alternative subject positions for them to occupy. Through prototyping they start to shift from seeing their relationship to the material world as one of consumption to seeing the role they can play as producers. Often this role is subversive, and therein lies the difference between kukiya-kiya (and the glossary of similar terms, jailbreaking etc) and maker movement. So I guess, what I'm concerned with here is the difference in subject positions associated with consumption and production. Kukiya-kiya is a situated, emergent, form of activity that responds to and evolves with political context of subjects who are excluded or disinherited (kukiya-kiya) while Maker movement (making as a form of club activity celebrated for its liberatory potential) at least in its present form, mostly entails activity that is sanitized from all political inflection and with little proffered in the form of recourse for justice, equity, access, ownership of the material. If both are meant to equip learners with a way of thinking about materials as a form of access to things, processes, systems they do not have access to, kukiya-kiya does so without making to much of itself while making (of the maker movement) is all pomp and little sense of "how is this useful to me in my situation [of disinheritance]" for individual learners. On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:15 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > My off the top of my head, Michael, is that in part information is being > consumed - as well as shared feelings of success, or frustration, or good > cheer. > > Perhaps, even in a Batesonian-way. Imminent mind is being both produced > and consumed. > > And of course, to consume can also be an example of full engagement > (consumed with interest) and the root is "to take up". > > Some thoughts. > > Phillip > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > Original Message > From: mike cole > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > Hell, Peg -- I cannot get my tomatoes to grow in the odd weather we have > had this summer, let alone get them to market. Pretty much can be said for > my scholarly efforts as well! > > I have been mulling over why prototyping and CHAT appear to have a kind of > natural affinity. I am speculating at the moment that both are focused on > production, and the AT part of CHAT is very clearly focused on production. > Just think of the activities of those who attend, say, ISCAR. > > But production is intimately (dare I say dialectically?) related to > consumption. Where is the good CHAT scholarship on the Foodie movement? > What is being consumed in an activity-centered classroom or a developmental > work research change lab? Seems worth inquiring about. > mike > > mike > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and preferred) > > spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found "jerry-built" as > > another term. > > (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it "jerry-rigged"). > > > > These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, simultaneously has > > connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I could > say > > why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - Ikea > hacking). > > > > "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking your > > iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and rebuild it for > > some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who was > > building an online educational credentialing website that used the phrase > > "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but I > support > > the idea in principle). > > > > Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... > > > > -greg > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve and it > seems > > > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. It is in > > > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other languages: > > > > > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I should add > that > > > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a little bit > > clumsy > > > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat derisive > way > > to > > > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat different > > from > > > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and haste and > > > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has something to do > > with > > > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" manufacture > in > > > the U.S. > > > > > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with different > > > cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. kukiya-kiya. > > > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker movement has > > > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to recover one's > > > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx reference > (and > > > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a kukiya-kiya > attempt > > to > > > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that they > > > certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). > > > > > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation of > > necessity > > > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see there on > the > > > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? Or if > this > > > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there actually both > > > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy in > > > creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > > > > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > > > > > Very best, > > > greg > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on > > Kukiya > > >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I > > suggest a > > >> new thread with the title, prototyping. > > >> > > >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by > > Molly. > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > >> object > > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 20 11:58:33 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 19:58:33 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apropos of the wreckage of sense-making and development in relation to AT, the following may provide some historical clarification: https://www.academia.edu/24660665/A_Comparison_of_Seven_Historical_Research_Orientations_within_CHAT_up_to_2001_ Best, Huw On 20 October 2016 at 01:27, mike cole wrote: > I did not intend to demean your mother's situation, David. > And the following makes your examples concrete: > > I think that the three > strategies I gave you (pronouns, delight that masks astonishment, and > avoiding explanations) really are rooted in the lower psychological > functions and not in higher functions:* pronominal meaning can be simply* > > > > > *indicative rather than nominative, delight is an example of her > inabilityto divide affect from will, and avoiding "why" is an example of > the loss ofsemantic meaning and reliance on the visual purview alone. The > last time Itook language samples from her, they were comparable to those of > a two yearold. * > > But if one adopts your view, why do you liken the deteriorization of her > higher psychological functions to the kind of work around > illustrated by prototyping under difficult conditions? > > *Perhaps its because you view sociogenesis as "the very* > *opposite: public health, compulsory education, and the knowledge that > it? is precisely our ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the > very? young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for > everybody,and not simply the very young and very old.* > > *?*With respect to public health the evidence I know of indicate that the > agricultural revolution, and subsequent urbanization led to a > deteriorization of life expectancy and health for the population as a whole > (however much it benefited the elites). *?*(As a priveleged member of the > privileged classes I would have been dead several times in the last couple > of decades had it not been for modern medicine-- my younger brother died 40 > years before me of pancreatitis which is now routinely treatable). > > > The high high and highest level of civilization of Germany in 1930 did > nothing to prevent the rise of Hitler and its aftermath -- and we can see > that scenario playing out daily in the US at present,,,, hopefully to a > different conclusion. > > With respect to the microgenesis/ontogeny issue, I gave yet to figure out > the source of your confidence in their dissimilarity. I brought up Franklin > in the blocks (again - its a part of your ontogeny but not that of most who > participate on xmca at present) because it seems to be an example of > microgenesis-as-developmental change. > > With respect to the idea that humans now exhibit the > ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the very > ? > young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for > everybody,*and > not simply the very young and very old.* > *? ?-- *I really am not sure > what you are referring to. > > As always, your ideas are interesting and enlightening, even when I do not > properly understand them. Exhibiting my ignorance has the virtue of > provoking the conditions for deeper understanding. My likening your > mother's loss of semantic meaning to my (so far normal) "senior moments" > did not envision an (almost) total loss of functions, higher and lower by > Vygotky's reckoning. It is as if the multiple layers of history to be seen > in Rome were reduced by war and weather to the bottom-most stratum of the > pre-Etruscan. > > ?mike? > > PS-- With regard to cultural-historical/societal genesis Benjamin's Angelus > Novus often comes to mind. > > A Klee painting "Angelus Novus" shows an angel looking as though he is > about to move away from something he is fixedly contemplating. His eyes are > staring, his mouth is open, his wings are spread. This is how one pictures > the > > angel of history. His face is turned toward the past. Where we perceive a > chain > ? > of events, he sees one single > ? > catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage upon > ? > > wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The an > ? ? > gel would like to stay, awaken > ? > the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing > ? > from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such violence that the > angel > ? > can no longer close them. This storm irresistibly propels him into the > future > ? > to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows > skyward. > > This storm is what we call progress. (pp. 257-58) > > > > ?? > > > PS-- > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 3:15 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Mike: > > > > My mother was a psychologist too--like you, trained as a behaviourist, > but > > unlike you she got off into Piaget in the early sixties. Then she moved > on > > to other things: she wrote a biography of Ada, Countess of Lovelace, > which > > was published by MIT Press and got her some notoriety, mostly because she > > showed that Byron's daughter, who everyone has assumed to be a kind of > > feminist icon and the world's first computer programmer, didn't actually > > know any mathematics! She told me a lot about Piaget and Lawrence > Kohlberg > > (who she briefly studied with). But I was unable to interest her in > > Vygotsky or in cultural historical psychology: she saw it, perhaps > > correctly, as nothing more than an attempt to prolong what she considered > > the crazy Bolshevism of my youth. > > > > Herr first response to losing her higher mental functions (when we walked > > to the Tate Art Gallery near her home in London and she forgot her way > > home) was simply horror. She went through a difficult period of terrors > > (curiously, mostly concerned with money, of which she still has a great > > deal more than she needs). Now she has stabilized (and she is actually > much > > happier than I ever remember her). But she has completely forgotten that > > she ever had children, doesn't know her age or history, and also lacks > > control over basic physiological functions. I think that the three > > strategies I gave you (pronouns, delight that masks astonishment, and > > avoiding explanations) really are rooted in the lower psychological > > functions and not in higher functions: pronominal meaning can be simply > > indicative rather than nominative, delight is an example of her inability > > to divide affect from will, and avoiding "why" is an example of the loss > of > > semantic meaning and reliance on the visual purview alone. The last time > I > > took language samples from her, they were comparable to those of a two > year > > old. > > > > Unfortunately is the word! And yet...perhaps this is something else we > can > > all learn from Vygotsky. I don't just mean the way he faced death: he > died > > young, at the very height of his powers, and he had been practicing dying > > for the whole of his adult life, so the comparison with my mother is > > manifestly unfair. I mean first of all the way that Vygotsky really does > > use "pathogenesis", not as a new form of development but rather as a way > of > > examining the real prior processes of development (which, as a Spinozan, > he > > believed always involved the expansion of potential rather than its > > contraction). That's why Vygotsky ends almost every single chapter in the > > second part of HDHMF with a pathological example, why never gives up > > on "defektology", and I also think that is why he started studying > medicine > > even when he knew there was no hope for himself: it offers a way of > looking > > at the lower layers of development and how they subtend or fail to > subtend > > the higher ones. > > > > The second thing, though, was what I think he discovered through his > > pathogenetic analyses: that there is a very real difference between > > phylogenesis and sociogenesis, between sociogenesis and ontogenesis...and > > also, as I am now quite sure, between ontogenesis and microgenesis. In > > phylogenesis: descent through modification--i.e. through the ruthless > > destruction of individuals and whole species. In sociogenesis, the very > > opposite: public health, compulsory education, and the knowledge that it > > is precisely our ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the very > > young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for > everybody, > > and not simply the very young and very old. The end of ontogenesis is not > > simply death--it is the decline that it inevitable after roughly the age > > that Vygotsky died. But with literacy, we are able to pass on our very > best > > to the next generation. I don't know if Vygotsky really believed that > these > > last lectures of his would be translated and read by thousands of > teachers > > in some totally foreign land eight decades after his death--he believed > > in internationalism, so I think it's at least possible that he did. But > > whether he believed it or not, that is what is going to happen, and it's > > why I think that cultural-historical psychologists, unlike Piagetians, > can > > face decline and death with a certain equanimity and acceptance. > > > > But it is also why I'm not really sure that Dorothy Kellogg Stein's > > biography of Ada Lovelace was such a terrible mistake, Mike. When I take > it > > off the shelf and read it, I can still hear her voice, feel her > razor-like > > intellect, and even remonstrate with her individualistic and biologizing > > psychology. When I go and actually visit her at Lord Wandsworth's Home > for > > Aging Jewry in Clapham I cannot. > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > David - > > > > > > I think it is unfortunate to link workarounds with a loss of higher > > > psychological functions. Again, it seems like ontogeny recapitulates > > > history. The end of ontogeny is death. Ditto history? > > > > > > By any account I can think of, your mother is using higher higher > > > psychological functions to work around the inability to retrieve > > vocabulary > > > at a conventional level of abstraction. I am of an age where the same > > > problem can be noticed. Nice that I can, for the time being, understand > > > enough to be able to study development in decline in real life in > > addition > > > to experiencing it. Hmm, that means I have some higher higher functions > > to > > > draw upon! > > > > > > In our own work, the workarounds needed to solve the failure of a > gifted, > > > "promising" technology under high pressure to succeed created both a > > > successful product and resulted in productive education for all > involved. > > > > > > To me, a great example of pathogenisis is the use of the highly > > developed, > > > highly admired, highly financed, digital technologies of cyberspace. > > > Clearly an advance over atomic bombs- cleaner, faster, more efficient. > > > > > > Where I think there is something distinctly unusual in Zaza's > prototyping > > > example is that the prototyping itself, even if it > > > had been accomplishable easily with strong technological/resource > > backing, > > > is a work around for the inability to confront directly the cultural > > > beliefs that make it shameful for a woman with HIV to bottle feed her > > baby. > > > We rarely discuss the power of cultural norms in constraining cultural > > > change even when the current practices threaten reproduction of the > > social > > > group. It seems, perhaps, an intractable problem. The US appears unable > > to > > > give up on putting water in disposable plastic bottles. Pathogenesis? > > > > > > I'll follow my habit of sorting things out by responding vis a vis > > > Franklin in Larry's note below. I will respond on a thread called > > > microgenesis/ontogenesis. > > > > > > Compensatorily yours. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:15 PM, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Mike likes a discussion to be, as Bernstein put it, well framed and > > well > > > > classified; or at least he likes the threads to be well disentangled > > and > > > > properly subject lined. But perhaps we shouldn't give up on the "The > > > > Prototyping Mind" too quickly! As you can see from Molly's careful > > > perusal > > > > and forceful restatement of Zaza's major themes, there is still a lot > > in > > > > Zaza's prototyping bin to talk about. > > > > > > > > The one that interests me, that I think is relevant to the > > "microgenesis" > > > > thread, is what learning means when it means adapting to > > > anti-development. > > > > For example, there are undoubtedly work-arounds that people use when > > > their > > > > higher psychological functions start to shut down (I watched my > mother > > do > > > > quite a few of these, addressing everyone as "you" instead of using > > > names, > > > > reacting to novel situations with a delight which effectively hides > her > > > > astonishment, and above all refraining from trying to understand the > > > > reasons for present situations). > > > > > > > > Similarly, there are ontogenetic work-arounds that people use when > > > > commodity production shuts down. But in both cases, we have a kind of > > > > development which forgoes time's arrow; we have a notion of > development > > > > that works backwards and forwards (like the laws of physics as > opposed > > to > > > > the laws of thermodynamics). I won't say that suggests relativism > (that > > > > would be, I think, too moralistic an argument, and it is a rabbit > hole > > we > > > > have been down already anyway). But it suggests an atomism that I > > > disagree > > > > with (in addition to eschewing time, the laws of physics don't > combine > > > > matter and meaning the way that the laws of thermodynamics do!) > > > > > > > > Mike has offered Franklin as an example of a Zoped before (I remember > > > once > > > > thinking that he directed it to ME as a way of getting ME to think a > > bit > > > > about listening to others on this list, but in fact he's used it in > > print > > > > on at least one occasion). Whenever he offers it, he does the exact > > > > opposite of what he usually does with xmca threads: instead of asking > > us > > > to > > > > disentangle threads, he invites us to combine them. Franklin is > > learning > > > > (to listen to others). But he is also developing, on at least three > > > counts: > > > > by learning to listen to others, he is acquiring new forms of meaning > > > > potential; by learning to recognize himself when it is "played back" > to > > > > him, he is acquiring a new form of reflecting on experience; and > (this > > is > > > > the one I really want to talk about) he is learning that play is not > > > simply > > > > the manipulation of objects but also the manipulation of social roles > > > > according to abstract rules (such as reciprocity and mutuality). > > > > > > > > Now, you can see that I'm trying to disentangle things that are not > > > really > > > > that distinct (reciprocity is really a form of serial mutuality, and > > both > > > > of them are simply abstract forms of listening to others). The > Vygotsky > > > > lectures I'm working with are a little similar: in his work on the > > Crisis > > > > at Three (Franklin's Crisis, I suspect), he is trying to disentangle > > the > > > > "seven stars" of bad behaviour (folk concepts that nursemaids and > > mothers > > > > use--I notice there is even a Russian Wikipedia page!) from what he > > > thinks > > > > is the key neoformation of Three, the separation of affect and will. > > > > > > > > For example, negativism is not just saying "no". It's saying "no" > when > > > the > > > > child really wants to say "yes", because although the child wants to > > say > > > > "yes", the others in the social milieu also want him to say "yes", > and > > > the > > > > child is more interested in self-assertion than in > self-gratification. > > > > Obstinacy is not just tenacity. It's actually the negation of > > negativism: > > > > saying "yes" when the child really wants to "no", or maybe "who > > cares?", > > > > simply because the child has already said "yes" and once again the > > child > > > is > > > > more interested in will than in affect. And so on. > > > > > > > > How is this connected with the next zone of development? Perhaps the > > next > > > > zone of development is preschool, and preschool depends on the > > separation > > > > of the semantic and the visio-graphic field of action in play. If so, > > > > Franklin's ability to interpret the teacher's imitation of his own > > > actions > > > > is a "trailer" of that next zone of development and no mere act of > > > > learning. Or, maybe this is happening in a preschool, and the next > > zone > > > of > > > > development is actually the Crisis at Seven. If so, Franklin's > ability > > to > > > > recognize himself is a "trailer" of the next zone of development: > > acting > > > a > > > > role that is not really a role, but in fact a prototype self. > > > > > > > > But that's my problem, Molly. What do I do when the prototype self > > comes > > > to > > > > me from the past and not the future? Can we really call this > > development? > > > > Isn't it really a form of pathogenesis? > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:29 AM, molly shea > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Zaza and Mike, > > > > > > > > > > My apologies for entering the conversation on Kukiya-kiya late, > > > however, > > > > > the article was so compelling I feel I should still enter. First, > to > > > > Zaza, > > > > > thank you for writing such a forceful analysis of learning through > > > > > prototyping. I especially like the ways in which your analytical > lens > > > > > included the political dimensions of problem solving and invoking > > > > > expertise. There are two ideas within the article that I hope to > use > > > and > > > > > extend in my work as well, and a question for Zaza, Mike, and > others > > at > > > > the > > > > > end of my second musing. > > > > > > > > > > The first is your discussion of disinheritance as *an attention to > > > > > materials?a way of looking at materials that allows the beholder to > > > > > recognize transience, mutability, intermediateness?that allows > > > > Zimbabweans > > > > > to employ novel and unexpected ways to act within and around the > > > > > constraints of their material conditions.* By pointing out the > > separate > > > > > cognitive practice associated with seeing through disinheritance, > the > > > > > analysis draws attention to the political dimension of learning. > The > > > > > possible activities and therefore learning opportunities that arise > > > > through > > > > > this historical perception change and assumptions about designing > > > > learning > > > > > environments then shifts with these methods of seeing and using > > > > materials. > > > > > It also draws another potential distinction between the Maker > > Movement > > > > and > > > > > Kukiya?kiya. The Makers Movement doesn?t necessarily claim a > > political > > > > > agenda, however, by claiming something a-political or claiming an > > > agenda > > > > of > > > > > advancing technological skills in the name of progress, it has a > > > > historical > > > > > and political situated set of values that may be in opposition to > > those > > > > of > > > > > Kukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material disinheritance > > > > arising > > > > > in the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? > > (2016) > > > > do > > > > > a wonderful job of pointing out many of the neoliberal consequences > > of > > > a > > > > > maker movement that does not see the lineage of prototyping > expertise > > > > > coming from many low-income communities living in ?tight > > > circumstances?. > > > > > The power of the design of this prototyping project, for me, comes > > from > > > > > centering local expertise in the design of the learning > environment. > > > > > Although prototyping is at the center of both ?making? and > > > ?kukiya?kiya? > > > > > practices, it seems the political sense making between settings > > > couldn?t > > > > be > > > > > more different. Even within the Zaza paper, the participants > question > > > how > > > > > invention might or might not lead to liberation. I appreciate > Zaza's > > > > > attention to how participants questioned invention and business > > acumen > > > > as a > > > > > means to ?extricate Zimbabwe from its economic quandary?. A lesser > > > > > researcher may have ignored this comment as outside of the design > > > process > > > > > and therefore the data set to be analyzed. > > > > > > > > > > The second idea, related to the political dimensions of cognition > > that > > > > are > > > > > often overlooked, is your analysis of gender and expertise in the > > > design > > > > > process. I am struck by how the performance of gender and > > > > design-expertise > > > > > came in the form of whispers and informal conversations about > > > hand-bags. > > > > It > > > > > would be great to have more analysis like this one where gender > > > networks > > > > > inform design. In fact, it seems gender (man/woman/trans/other) is > > > always > > > > > informing design, but perhaps performance of expertise that is > > cis-male > > > > is > > > > > sometimes confused with having expertise at all. You analysis > offers > > > more > > > > > nuance about other kinds of performance of expertise. I wonder if > > > > > discussions about hand-bags creates the intimacy necessary to share > > > > > female-cis gendered understandings of design problems. I would love > > to > > > > hear > > > > > your thinking on this matter. > > > > > > > > > > Again, thank you for your work and for the insights that this > article > > > has > > > > > provided me. > > > > > > > > > > - Molly Shea > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:46 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of Zaza's > > > paper > > > > > > (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any > > > time), I > > > > > > feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, > but > > as > > > > > life > > > > > > allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in > at > > > > least > > > > > > some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. > > > > > > > > > > > > So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It > addresses > > (I > > > > > > believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a > child > > > is > > > > "a > > > > > > head taller than herself." > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my > > > > > interpretation > > > > > > of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about the > > > zoped > > > > > and > > > > > > play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic implications. > > > > > > > > > > > > See what you think. its 4 pages long. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I > > might > > > > > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may > > also > > > > be > > > > > a > > > > > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of > proximal > > > > > > evolution > > > > > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in > the > > > > > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a > zone > > > of > > > > > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far > longer > > > > than I > > > > > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a > very > > > good > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for > > > > "development" > > > > > > and > > > > > > > not for learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested > in > > > the > > > > > what > > > > > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes > it, > > we > > > > are > > > > > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an > > > > interpersonal > > > > > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning > very > > > > often > > > > > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that > > have > > > > > > nothing > > > > > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally > > rooted. > > > > > > Thirdly, > > > > > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing > > > before > > > > we > > > > > > go > > > > > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to > understand > > > what > > > > > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to > > our > > > > > > teaching > > > > > > > needs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at > > > Three", > > > > > > part > > > > > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of > the > > > > > > Collected > > > > > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? > ???????, > > > > > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? > > > ??????-???? > > > > > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > > > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? > > ???????????????? > > > > > > ???????? > > > > > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? > ?????? > > > > > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > > > > > ???????????, > > > > > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? > > > ??????????. ? > > > > > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? > > > > ?????????? > > > > > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > > > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all > > the > > > > > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may > > be > > > > > > grouped > > > > > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > > > > > Consequently, > > > > > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very > > > least > > > > > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > > > > > appointed > > > > > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > > > > > afterwards > > > > > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and > peripheral > > > > lines > > > > > > of > > > > > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate > > the > > > > > > critical > > > > > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal > > development, > > > > > i.e. > > > > > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to > the > > > > > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > > > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the > > > > child's > > > > > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > > > > > development, > > > > > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and > > > > learning. > > > > > > He > > > > > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to > > > avoid > > > > > it: > > > > > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on > > Ganzheitpsychologie > > > > > that > > > > > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what > we > > > need > > > > > to > > > > > > do > > > > > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not > have > > > > > > > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of > the > > > > > > > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but > > > about > > > > > > > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > > > > > component > > > > > > > > for sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow > > students > > > to > > > > > go > > > > > > > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of > > > > development > > > > > > > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the > kind > > > of > > > > > > > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very > > > narrow > > > > > > > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents > me > > > from > > > > > > > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature > > > > presents > > > > > > > > many problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm > > talking > > > > > > about. > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I > > think > > > > > there > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a > > distortion > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not > > ontogenesis. I > > > > > think > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations > that > > > were > > > > > > > picked > > > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of > > > > development". > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, > > there > > > > > > hasn't > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and > the > > > > idea > > > > > > > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be > done > > > by > > > > > the > > > > > > > > child > > > > > > > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is > > > just > > > > > too > > > > > > > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. > > > Secondly, > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next > > zone > > > of > > > > > > > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > > > > > lectures, > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > > > > > lectures: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > > > > > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English > > version, > > > > > 1998: > > > > > > > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on > > > replacing > > > > > > > "test" > > > > > > > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace > "diagnostic" > > > > with > > > > > > > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and > > > total > > > > > > > > nonsense. > > > > > > > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD > is > > > NOT > > > > > > > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > > > > > infinitely > > > > > > > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind > of > > > > > > mediation, > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely > adopted > > > > from > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's > > method: > > > > for > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but > > > function > > > > > MUST > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two > > > > children. > > > > > > One > > > > > > > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is > > simply > > > > > that > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the > > > second > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the right > > > > > functional > > > > > > > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) > > > while > > > > > the > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of > > > learning > > > > > > > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that > > means > > > > > that > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a > > whole > > > > lot > > > > > > > > easier > > > > > > > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and > > the > > > > > > future > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a > > weird > > > > > > > inversion > > > > > > > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the > > > future > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> David, > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able > to > > > > spot a > > > > > > > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > > > > > urbanistic > > > > > > > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they > no > > > > longer > > > > > > > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive > > to > > > > that > > > > > > > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > > > > > challenge > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > >> oral utterances. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their > linguistic > > > > > > > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written > > > words > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the > > Japanese > > > > > > > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg < > > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in > applied > > > > > > > > linguistics or > > > > > > > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > > > > > > sociogenetic, > > > > > > > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's > > wonderful > > > > > > article > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that > it > > > > would > > > > > > > help > > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > > > > > microgenetic > > > > > > > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg > 2011). > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" > > was > > > > > around > > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's > a > > > > > constant > > > > > > > > >> feature > > > > > > > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > > > > > associated > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the > term > > > and > > > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, > > Koffka, > > > > > Lewin, > > > > > > > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't > seem > > > to > > > > > use > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > >> term > > > > > > > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in > Nazi > > > > > > psychology > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, > scathingly, > > > > > > denounces > > > > > > > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > > > > > > Psychoneurology". I > > > > > > > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > > > > > external > > > > > > > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and > "ontogenetic", > > > > calls > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > >> "micro" > > > > > > > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed > > to > > > > > > > > biological, > > > > > > > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. > > At > > > a > > > > > > > > particular > > > > > > > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in > perceptual > > > high > > > > > > > > fidelity > > > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if > > she > > > > > sees > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > >> her > > > > > > > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to > perceptual > > > > > > meaning. > > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully > reciprocal: > > > the > > > > > > > specific > > > > > > > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. > > > > Microgenesis > > > > > is > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > >> you > > > > > > > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when > you > > > are > > > > > > > reading > > > > > > > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > > an > > > > > object > > > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From glassman.13@osu.edu Thu Oct 20 12:24:23 2016 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 19:24:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> , <5808ec5f.10c0620a.63484.606e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4AF64@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Phillip, Larry, All (I am using a new approach to responding, please let me know if it works), But perhaps the question is, how and why are they learning these things. Are they learning these things because the society sets up the apprenticeships for indoctrination in to the larger society? Or are they learning them through their own curiosity and explorations. Are apprenticeships rituals that are passed down between generations where the apprentices are so busy learning they are unaware of what they are learning, they simply take their place within a system, or are they learning about what it means to be in continuous relationship through their own adaptations as they invent? I think when Illich talks about tools for conviviality he is talking about tools that are outside of the established rituals of "education" and more about using tools for an immediate, urgent (in the broad sense) purpose. And of course when we do this it brings us in to relationship with others who have some sense of shared purpose (I hope I am getting this right). Interestingly Illich doesn't think that tools were always part of the human condition (I wonder what Vygotsky would think of this) - they emerged during the 12th century. When this happened how we used and viewed these tools became of primary important, because tools could be perceived in different ways. But at least we had a choice in how we integrated tools in to our lives. But when we participate in systems this choice is taken away from us, or at least we don't recognize it. Michael From shirinvossoughi@gmail.com Thu Oct 20 12:29:46 2016 From: shirinvossoughi@gmail.com (Shirin Vossoughi) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 14:29:46 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> <5808ec5f.10c0620a.63484.606e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Thank you Phillip and all I was very happy to come across the Chachra as I think she draws attention to these other forms of making (mending, repair, caring) that may be undervalued by the "maker movement", but also that making itself as an umbrella term that other forms of human activity are now somehow accountable to is too narrow. Here is her piece for those who might be interested: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/why-i-am-not-a-maker/384767/ One of the things that continues to worry me is the focus on subject-object relations over and above subject-subject relations within making. Or that subject-subject relations become valued in so far as they lead to the generation of more innovative products, but not as ends in themselves (maybe this is more along the lines of conviviality?). This relates in my mind to the ways teaching is often positioned as inherently didactic and problematic rather than as a potentially powerful, beautiful (and bi-directional) relation. Zaza I am very much looking forward to reading your paper. Thank you for sharing it here. Shirin On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 1:16 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > to further support for the case that more is being consumed than > information, and conviviality, i quote Jean Lave, from Teaching as Learning > - "I began to inquire into just what was being learned by the apprentices, > and found that the apprentices were learning many complex "lessons" at > once. To name a few: they were learning relations among the major social > identities and divisions in Liberian society which they were in the > business of dressing. They were learning to make a life, to make a living, > to make clothes, to grow old enough, and mature enough to become master > tailors, and to see the truth of the respect due to a master of their > trade. It seems trivially true that they were never doing only one of these > things at a time." > > > Teaching, as Learning. in Practice > > Jean Lave > > > phillip > > > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 10:10:01 AM > To: Zaza Kabayadondo; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > Phillip, Michael, Mike > To say: Consumed can be an example of full engagement and what is being > consumed is more than information, what is also being consumed is (shared > feelings) to my ears can be related to Michael?s reminder and return to > *tools of conviviality* and also to Franklin who with the guidance of > Vivian is learning (and developing) democratic spirit. > > On page 212 of the article by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escude is also > explored when they reference Chachra (2015) who juxtaposes the KINDS of > human activity that *tend to be* (intend, intentional, intentional/ity as > multiple lines) VALUED by the maker movement with the everyday practices > that have been the practices of women. > > These historically practiced ways of making such as: > Mending, repairing, teaching, caregoving. > > The case the article presents is that the making movement may be devaluing > and delegitimizing these tools of conviviality. Self-identifying with the > maker movement may develop through ones *gestures* (meaning making) a > gendered way of moving that exemplifies possible gendered forms of > engineering design and educational *products* and *productivity* (notice > the ity that to my ears calls forth *inner* meaning) > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Zaza Kabayadondo > Sent: October 19, 2016 7:32 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > Thank you for sharing Vossoughi, Harper and Escud?'s paper on the > appropriation of "making" in schools. I'm adding this to my syllabus for > next semester! > > I agree with Mike, Peg and Molly's suggestion that there seems to be a > natural affinity between the AT in CHAT and prototyping. > > On the topic of production and consumption: the potency in prototyping lies > in the contexts for prototyping where learners/prototypers realize there > are alternative subject positions for them to occupy. Through prototyping > they start to shift from seeing their relationship to the material world as > one of consumption to seeing the role they can play as producers. Often > this role is subversive, and therein lies the difference between > kukiya-kiya (and the glossary of similar terms, jailbreaking etc) and maker > movement. So I guess, what I'm concerned with here is the difference in > subject positions associated with consumption and production. > > Kukiya-kiya is a situated, emergent, form of activity that responds to and > evolves with political context of subjects who are excluded or disinherited > (kukiya-kiya) while Maker movement (making as a form of club activity > celebrated for its liberatory potential) at least in its present form, > mostly entails activity that is sanitized from all political inflection and > with little proffered in the form of recourse for justice, equity, access, > ownership of the material. If both are meant to equip learners with a way > of thinking about materials as a form of access to things, processes, > systems they do not have access to, kukiya-kiya does so without making to > much of itself while making (of the maker movement) is all pomp and little > sense of "how is this useful to me in my situation [of disinheritance]" for > individual learners. > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:15 PM, White, Phillip < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> > wrote: > > > My off the top of my head, Michael, is that in part information is being > > consumed - as well as shared feelings of success, or frustration, or good > > cheer. > > > > Perhaps, even in a Batesonian-way. Imminent mind is being both produced > > and consumed. > > > > And of course, to consume can also be an example of full engagement > > (consumed with interest) and the root is "to take up". > > > > Some thoughts. > > > > Phillip > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > > Original Message > > From: mike cole > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:45 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > > > Hell, Peg -- I cannot get my tomatoes to grow in the odd weather we have > > had this summer, let alone get them to market. Pretty much can be said > for > > my scholarly efforts as well! > > > > I have been mulling over why prototyping and CHAT appear to have a kind > of > > natural affinity. I am speculating at the moment that both are focused on > > production, and the AT part of CHAT is very clearly focused on > production. > > Just think of the activities of those who attend, say, ISCAR. > > > > But production is intimately (dare I say dialectically?) related to > > consumption. Where is the good CHAT scholarship on the Foodie movement? > > What is being consumed in an activity-centered classroom or a > developmental > > work research change lab? Seems worth inquiring about. > > mike > > > > mike > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and > preferred) > > > spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found "jerry-built" > as > > > another term. > > > (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it "jerry-rigged"). > > > > > > These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, simultaneously has > > > connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I could > > say > > > why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - Ikea > > hacking). > > > > > > "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking your > > > iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and rebuild it > for > > > some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who was > > > building an online educational credentialing website that used the > phrase > > > "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but I > > support > > > the idea in principle). > > > > > > Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve and it > > seems > > > > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. It is in > > > > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other > languages: > > > > > > > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I should add > > that > > > > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a little bit > > > clumsy > > > > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat derisive > > way > > > to > > > > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat > different > > > from > > > > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and haste > and > > > > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has something to do > > > with > > > > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" manufacture > > in > > > > the U.S. > > > > > > > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with different > > > > cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. kukiya-kiya. > > > > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker movement > has > > > > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to recover > one's > > > > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx reference > > (and > > > > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a kukiya-kiya > > attempt > > > to > > > > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that they > > > > certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). > > > > > > > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation of > > > necessity > > > > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see there on > > the > > > > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? Or if > > this > > > > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there actually > both > > > > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy in > > > > creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > > > > > > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > > > > > > > Very best, > > > > greg > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on > > > Kukiya > > > >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I > > > suggest a > > > >> new thread with the title, prototyping. > > > >> > > > >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by > > > Molly. > > > >> > > > >> mike > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> > > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > >> object > > > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Oct 20 14:26:16 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 08:26:16 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw: Welcome back! We missed you. I keep trying to download your paper, but academia.edu just sets up an account for me instead. I already have an account, thank you very much, and I just want to see your paper. What do I do? Mike: I didn't mean to suggest that you were in any way trying to make light of my mother's dementia; I didn't even mean to suggest that her fate was particularly tragic (I get carried away by it sometimes, but she doesn't any more). Yet I think that the very fact that her fate evokes those feelings in me and in others, whereas we would not feel this way about a real two-year-old, does suggest that time's arrow is a very real part of our interpersonal ontogenesis. Yes, I think the "Angelus Novus" (both Klee and Benjamin) is apposite: human progress is real, but it is very hard to believe that when you are in the thick of it and you don't really have a clear sense of how it is all going to come out. But that needn't be true of xmca postings, so let me try to sort out some of the points I was trying to make. a) I was comparing the deterioration of higher psychological functions to Zaza's notion of disinheritance, not to prototyping. I see the two as distinct, and it seems to me that the difference is precisely that the former is retroleptic (it harkens back to a previous, less developed form) and the latter is proleptic (it brings the future into the present). For example, using a washing machine to store rice because there isn't any power is an example of disinheritance: it is retroleptic, because it harkens back to a non-electrified, subsistence agriculture past. But using the contents of a rubbish bin to create a prosthetic device that allows men to nurse their newborn children is an example of prototyping: it is proleptic, because it enables a neo-formation: a function that is "newly built and not previously present in the prior steps of development" (Vygotsky's lecture on early childhood). b) I was trying to show that sociogenesis and phylogenesis are different in principle: they aren't just different in timescale (i.e. I think that sociogenesis is not just a kind of fast-forward phylogenesis). The Nazi era you evoke is a good example: the Nazis believed that their eugenic policies (the extermination of the weak, the mentally ill, and of course the racially inferior, i.e. you and me) were simply a way of speeding up a natural process. Yes, human progress since the replacement of hunting and gathering with herding and growing has been checkered: it has been, for the most part, a natural process rather than a designed one. But public health (I mean preventive rather than curative medicine) and universal literacy (I mean compulsory primary education) are not equivocal in their nature precisely because they are proleptic; I don't think it's possible to be agnostic or ambivalent about the expansion of human potential that they have brought about: more people live longer and get more done, and that is the Spinozan definition of "good". These unequivocal human advances were enabled, not by people trying to speed up the process of natural selection and extinction, but rather by people trying to overcome them. Public health and universal literacy benefit the very young and the very old disproportionately at first, but we all benefit when the level of public contagion and the level of ignorance in cultural and political discourse is reduced. Besides, we were all once very young, even if some of us will never be very old. So it seems to me that sociogenesis is never just a concentration of phylogenesis. c) I think that ontogenesis and sociogenesis are also different in principle and not simply in timescale. Take a look at this (warning: people with progressive, child-centred views on teaching children will find it hard to watch!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwPPWnTrUs0 A Chinese family is teaching their four-year-old the multiplication tables. She is pretty good at first, but she keeps getting stuck at "three times five is fifteen". Her mother makes her repeat it three or four times. This actually makes the problem a little worse because "three times five" gets stuck in her head and she gets confused when she tries to talk about four, five, and six times five. Finally, she decides that "three times five" is too difficult, although of course using the method of rote memorization we really cannot say that it is any more difficult than any of the others, and her tears, barely suppressed throughout, overcome her. Now, at her age, my niece (who is now college age) was already using an abacus (and she was not good at rote memo as a result). But at that age, my wife (who is now nearly fifty) was still playing jacks with the ankle bones of sheep; my mother-in-law (who died three years ago) was herding cattle, and if we go back further we get to the many generations of Chinese women for whom education was unthinkable. It's not just that education has been speeded up: it's that it has been in many ways reversed--initially a natural process clearly related to production and reproduction, it then became a process of using extra-mental signs (ankle bones and abacuses), and now an attempt to proceed immediately to rote internalization. It's not just a quantitative change; it's that the very path of development has changed, precisely because of the previous paths of development (as Arturo would say, the existence of the L1 ensures that L2 is not just a recapitulation). It appears that with ontogenesis too is not a concentration of sociogenesis. d) I think that learning and development are similarly different. That is, learning is not just a distillation of pre-existing or of hypothetical development but in some ways a negation and sublation of it. Learning and development are different for all the reasons that Vygotsky argues in Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech: learning is a more general notion, it is more external, it is less volitional and less consciously aware; development is age specific, it is part the structuration and restructuration of a whole psychological system, it occurs at the personality end of the pole connecting the child to the environment rather than the environmental end, and it is the result of expansion of personality. So when learning leads development (as in Franklin's case) there is a certain clash: Franklin has to set aside a mode of learning and a skill set that has become natural to him and develop a new formation instead. If we want comparisons with other timescales, this clash is where we should look: it is comparable to when children grow up to be themselves rather than their parents, or when humans learn to adapt the environment to themselves rather than adapt to it. It's not simply the case that learning is development writ small, or a development on a very short timescale: there is a qualitative, structural difference between learning and development, because one of them is led by others and tends to the retroleptic (because others are often interested in social reproduction), and the other led by the child (who has other things on her or his mind). But if learning and development are as different in kind as evolution and social progress, or social progress and child development--and I believe that they truly are--we cannot say that learning is simply "microgenesis", the microscopic study of development that the Leipzig school of Ganzheitpsychologie school had in mind. It is interesting that the Leipzig school was mostly interested in lower level psychological functions (e.g. perception) and perhaps also non-coincidental that most of them became ardent Nazis (Felix Krueger, Eric Jaensch, Hans Volkelt, Narziss Ach, Oswald Kroh and others). David Kellogg Macquarie University On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 5:58 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Apropos of the wreckage of sense-making and development in relation to AT, > the following may provide some historical clarification: > > https://www.academia.edu/24660665/A_Comparison_of_ > Seven_Historical_Research_Orientations_within_CHAT_up_to_2001_ > > Best, > Huw > > On 20 October 2016 at 01:27, mike cole wrote: > > > I did not intend to demean your mother's situation, David. > > And the following makes your examples concrete: > > > > I think that the three > > strategies I gave you (pronouns, delight that masks astonishment, and > > avoiding explanations) really are rooted in the lower psychological > > functions and not in higher functions:* pronominal meaning can be simply* > > > > > > > > > > *indicative rather than nominative, delight is an example of her > > inabilityto divide affect from will, and avoiding "why" is an example of > > the loss ofsemantic meaning and reliance on the visual purview alone. The > > last time Itook language samples from her, they were comparable to those > of > > a two yearold. * > > > > But if one adopts your view, why do you liken the deteriorization of her > > higher psychological functions to the kind of work around > > illustrated by prototyping under difficult conditions? > > > > *Perhaps its because you view sociogenesis as "the very* > > *opposite: public health, compulsory education, and the knowledge that > > it? is precisely our ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the > > very? young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for > > everybody,and not simply the very young and very old.* > > > > *?*With respect to public health the evidence I know of indicate that the > > agricultural revolution, and subsequent urbanization led to a > > deteriorization of life expectancy and health for the population as a > whole > > (however much it benefited the elites). *?*(As a priveleged member of the > > privileged classes I would have been dead several times in the last > couple > > of decades had it not been for modern medicine-- my younger brother died > 40 > > years before me of pancreatitis which is now routinely treatable). > > > > > > The high high and highest level of civilization of Germany in 1930 did > > nothing to prevent the rise of Hitler and its aftermath -- and we can see > > that scenario playing out daily in the US at present,,,, hopefully to a > > different conclusion. > > > > With respect to the microgenesis/ontogeny issue, I gave yet to figure out > > the source of your confidence in their dissimilarity. I brought up > Franklin > > in the blocks (again - its a part of your ontogeny but not that of most > who > > participate on xmca at present) because it seems to be an example of > > microgenesis-as-developmental change. > > > > With respect to the idea that humans now exhibit the > > ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the very > > ? > > young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for > > everybody,*and > > not simply the very young and very old.* > > *? ?-- *I really am not sure > > what you are referring to. > > > > As always, your ideas are interesting and enlightening, even when I do > not > > properly understand them. Exhibiting my ignorance has the virtue of > > provoking the conditions for deeper understanding. My likening your > > mother's loss of semantic meaning to my (so far normal) "senior moments" > > did not envision an (almost) total loss of functions, higher and lower by > > Vygotky's reckoning. It is as if the multiple layers of history to be > seen > > in Rome were reduced by war and weather to the bottom-most stratum of the > > pre-Etruscan. > > > > ?mike? > > > > PS-- With regard to cultural-historical/societal genesis Benjamin's > Angelus > > Novus often comes to mind. > > > > A Klee painting "Angelus Novus" shows an angel looking as though he is > > about to move away from something he is fixedly contemplating. His eyes > are > > staring, his mouth is open, his wings are spread. This is how one > pictures > > the > > > > angel of history. His face is turned toward the past. Where we perceive a > > chain > > ? > > of events, he sees one single > > ? > > catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage upon > > ? > > > > wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The an > > ? ? > > gel would like to stay, awaken > > ? > > the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing > > ? > > from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such violence that the > > angel > > ? > > can no longer close them. This storm irresistibly propels him into the > > future > > ? > > to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows > > skyward. > > > > This storm is what we call progress. (pp. 257-58) > > > > > > > > ?? > > > > > > PS-- > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 3:15 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Mike: > > > > > > My mother was a psychologist too--like you, trained as a behaviourist, > > but > > > unlike you she got off into Piaget in the early sixties. Then she moved > > on > > > to other things: she wrote a biography of Ada, Countess of Lovelace, > > which > > > was published by MIT Press and got her some notoriety, mostly because > she > > > showed that Byron's daughter, who everyone has assumed to be a kind of > > > feminist icon and the world's first computer programmer, didn't > actually > > > know any mathematics! She told me a lot about Piaget and Lawrence > > Kohlberg > > > (who she briefly studied with). But I was unable to interest her in > > > Vygotsky or in cultural historical psychology: she saw it, perhaps > > > correctly, as nothing more than an attempt to prolong what she > considered > > > the crazy Bolshevism of my youth. > > > > > > Herr first response to losing her higher mental functions (when we > walked > > > to the Tate Art Gallery near her home in London and she forgot her way > > > home) was simply horror. She went through a difficult period of terrors > > > (curiously, mostly concerned with money, of which she still has a great > > > deal more than she needs). Now she has stabilized (and she is actually > > much > > > happier than I ever remember her). But she has completely forgotten > that > > > she ever had children, doesn't know her age or history, and also lacks > > > control over basic physiological functions. I think that the three > > > strategies I gave you (pronouns, delight that masks astonishment, and > > > avoiding explanations) really are rooted in the lower psychological > > > functions and not in higher functions: pronominal meaning can be simply > > > indicative rather than nominative, delight is an example of her > inability > > > to divide affect from will, and avoiding "why" is an example of the > loss > > of > > > semantic meaning and reliance on the visual purview alone. The last > time > > I > > > took language samples from her, they were comparable to those of a two > > year > > > old. > > > > > > Unfortunately is the word! And yet...perhaps this is something else we > > can > > > all learn from Vygotsky. I don't just mean the way he faced death: he > > died > > > young, at the very height of his powers, and he had been practicing > dying > > > for the whole of his adult life, so the comparison with my mother is > > > manifestly unfair. I mean first of all the way that Vygotsky really > does > > > use "pathogenesis", not as a new form of development but rather as a > way > > of > > > examining the real prior processes of development (which, as a > Spinozan, > > he > > > believed always involved the expansion of potential rather than its > > > contraction). That's why Vygotsky ends almost every single chapter in > the > > > second part of HDHMF with a pathological example, why never gives up > > > on "defektology", and I also think that is why he started studying > > medicine > > > even when he knew there was no hope for himself: it offers a way of > > looking > > > at the lower layers of development and how they subtend or fail to > > subtend > > > the higher ones. > > > > > > The second thing, though, was what I think he discovered through his > > > pathogenetic analyses: that there is a very real difference between > > > phylogenesis and sociogenesis, between sociogenesis and > ontogenesis...and > > > also, as I am now quite sure, between ontogenesis and microgenesis. In > > > phylogenesis: descent through modification--i.e. through the ruthless > > > destruction of individuals and whole species. In sociogenesis, the very > > > opposite: public health, compulsory education, and the knowledge that > it > > > is precisely our ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the very > > > young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for > > everybody, > > > and not simply the very young and very old. The end of ontogenesis is > not > > > simply death--it is the decline that it inevitable after roughly the > age > > > that Vygotsky died. But with literacy, we are able to pass on our very > > best > > > to the next generation. I don't know if Vygotsky really believed that > > these > > > last lectures of his would be translated and read by thousands of > > teachers > > > in some totally foreign land eight decades after his death--he believed > > > in internationalism, so I think it's at least possible that he did. But > > > whether he believed it or not, that is what is going to happen, and > it's > > > why I think that cultural-historical psychologists, unlike Piagetians, > > can > > > face decline and death with a certain equanimity and acceptance. > > > > > > But it is also why I'm not really sure that Dorothy Kellogg Stein's > > > biography of Ada Lovelace was such a terrible mistake, Mike. When I > take > > it > > > off the shelf and read it, I can still hear her voice, feel her > > razor-like > > > intellect, and even remonstrate with her individualistic and > biologizing > > > psychology. When I go and actually visit her at Lord Wandsworth's Home > > for > > > Aging Jewry in Clapham I cannot. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > David - > > > > > > > > I think it is unfortunate to link workarounds with a loss of higher > > > > psychological functions. Again, it seems like ontogeny recapitulates > > > > history. The end of ontogeny is death. Ditto history? > > > > > > > > By any account I can think of, your mother is using higher higher > > > > psychological functions to work around the inability to retrieve > > > vocabulary > > > > at a conventional level of abstraction. I am of an age where the same > > > > problem can be noticed. Nice that I can, for the time being, > understand > > > > enough to be able to study development in decline in real life in > > > addition > > > > to experiencing it. Hmm, that means I have some higher higher > functions > > > to > > > > draw upon! > > > > > > > > In our own work, the workarounds needed to solve the failure of a > > gifted, > > > > "promising" technology under high pressure to succeed created both a > > > > successful product and resulted in productive education for all > > involved. > > > > > > > > To me, a great example of pathogenisis is the use of the highly > > > developed, > > > > highly admired, highly financed, digital technologies of cyberspace. > > > > Clearly an advance over atomic bombs- cleaner, faster, more > efficient. > > > > > > > > Where I think there is something distinctly unusual in Zaza's > > prototyping > > > > example is that the prototyping itself, even if it > > > > had been accomplishable easily with strong technological/resource > > > backing, > > > > is a work around for the inability to confront directly the cultural > > > > beliefs that make it shameful for a woman with HIV to bottle feed her > > > baby. > > > > We rarely discuss the power of cultural norms in constraining > cultural > > > > change even when the current practices threaten reproduction of the > > > social > > > > group. It seems, perhaps, an intractable problem. The US appears > unable > > > to > > > > give up on putting water in disposable plastic bottles. Pathogenesis? > > > > > > > > I'll follow my habit of sorting things out by responding vis a vis > > > > Franklin in Larry's note below. I will respond on a thread called > > > > microgenesis/ontogenesis. > > > > > > > > Compensatorily yours. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:15 PM, David Kellogg > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Mike likes a discussion to be, as Bernstein put it, well framed and > > > well > > > > > classified; or at least he likes the threads to be well > disentangled > > > and > > > > > properly subject lined. But perhaps we shouldn't give up on the > "The > > > > > Prototyping Mind" too quickly! As you can see from Molly's careful > > > > perusal > > > > > and forceful restatement of Zaza's major themes, there is still a > lot > > > in > > > > > Zaza's prototyping bin to talk about. > > > > > > > > > > The one that interests me, that I think is relevant to the > > > "microgenesis" > > > > > thread, is what learning means when it means adapting to > > > > anti-development. > > > > > For example, there are undoubtedly work-arounds that people use > when > > > > their > > > > > higher psychological functions start to shut down (I watched my > > mother > > > do > > > > > quite a few of these, addressing everyone as "you" instead of using > > > > names, > > > > > reacting to novel situations with a delight which effectively hides > > her > > > > > astonishment, and above all refraining from trying to understand > the > > > > > reasons for present situations). > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, there are ontogenetic work-arounds that people use when > > > > > commodity production shuts down. But in both cases, we have a kind > of > > > > > development which forgoes time's arrow; we have a notion of > > development > > > > > that works backwards and forwards (like the laws of physics as > > opposed > > > to > > > > > the laws of thermodynamics). I won't say that suggests relativism > > (that > > > > > would be, I think, too moralistic an argument, and it is a rabbit > > hole > > > we > > > > > have been down already anyway). But it suggests an atomism that I > > > > disagree > > > > > with (in addition to eschewing time, the laws of physics don't > > combine > > > > > matter and meaning the way that the laws of thermodynamics do!) > > > > > > > > > > Mike has offered Franklin as an example of a Zoped before (I > remember > > > > once > > > > > thinking that he directed it to ME as a way of getting ME to think > a > > > bit > > > > > about listening to others on this list, but in fact he's used it in > > > print > > > > > on at least one occasion). Whenever he offers it, he does the exact > > > > > opposite of what he usually does with xmca threads: instead of > asking > > > us > > > > to > > > > > disentangle threads, he invites us to combine them. Franklin is > > > learning > > > > > (to listen to others). But he is also developing, on at least three > > > > counts: > > > > > by learning to listen to others, he is acquiring new forms of > meaning > > > > > potential; by learning to recognize himself when it is "played > back" > > to > > > > > him, he is acquiring a new form of reflecting on experience; and > > (this > > > is > > > > > the one I really want to talk about) he is learning that play is > not > > > > simply > > > > > the manipulation of objects but also the manipulation of social > roles > > > > > according to abstract rules (such as reciprocity and mutuality). > > > > > > > > > > Now, you can see that I'm trying to disentangle things that are not > > > > really > > > > > that distinct (reciprocity is really a form of serial mutuality, > and > > > both > > > > > of them are simply abstract forms of listening to others). The > > Vygotsky > > > > > lectures I'm working with are a little similar: in his work on the > > > Crisis > > > > > at Three (Franklin's Crisis, I suspect), he is trying to > disentangle > > > the > > > > > "seven stars" of bad behaviour (folk concepts that nursemaids and > > > mothers > > > > > use--I notice there is even a Russian Wikipedia page!) from what he > > > > thinks > > > > > is the key neoformation of Three, the separation of affect and > will. > > > > > > > > > > For example, negativism is not just saying "no". It's saying "no" > > when > > > > the > > > > > child really wants to say "yes", because although the child wants > to > > > say > > > > > "yes", the others in the social milieu also want him to say "yes", > > and > > > > the > > > > > child is more interested in self-assertion than in > > self-gratification. > > > > > Obstinacy is not just tenacity. It's actually the negation of > > > negativism: > > > > > saying "yes" when the child really wants to "no", or maybe "who > > > cares?", > > > > > simply because the child has already said "yes" and once again the > > > child > > > > is > > > > > more interested in will than in affect. And so on. > > > > > > > > > > How is this connected with the next zone of development? Perhaps > the > > > next > > > > > zone of development is preschool, and preschool depends on the > > > separation > > > > > of the semantic and the visio-graphic field of action in play. If > so, > > > > > Franklin's ability to interpret the teacher's imitation of his own > > > > actions > > > > > is a "trailer" of that next zone of development and no mere act of > > > > > learning. Or, maybe this is happening in a preschool, and the next > > > zone > > > > of > > > > > development is actually the Crisis at Seven. If so, Franklin's > > ability > > > to > > > > > recognize himself is a "trailer" of the next zone of development: > > > acting > > > > a > > > > > role that is not really a role, but in fact a prototype self. > > > > > > > > > > But that's my problem, Molly. What do I do when the prototype self > > > comes > > > > to > > > > > me from the past and not the future? Can we really call this > > > development? > > > > > Isn't it really a form of pathogenesis? > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:29 AM, molly shea > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Zaza and Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > My apologies for entering the conversation on Kukiya-kiya late, > > > > however, > > > > > > the article was so compelling I feel I should still enter. First, > > to > > > > > Zaza, > > > > > > thank you for writing such a forceful analysis of learning > through > > > > > > prototyping. I especially like the ways in which your analytical > > lens > > > > > > included the political dimensions of problem solving and invoking > > > > > > expertise. There are two ideas within the article that I hope to > > use > > > > and > > > > > > extend in my work as well, and a question for Zaza, Mike, and > > others > > > at > > > > > the > > > > > > end of my second musing. > > > > > > > > > > > > The first is your discussion of disinheritance as *an attention > to > > > > > > materials?a way of looking at materials that allows the beholder > to > > > > > > recognize transience, mutability, intermediateness?that allows > > > > > Zimbabweans > > > > > > to employ novel and unexpected ways to act within and around the > > > > > > constraints of their material conditions.* By pointing out the > > > separate > > > > > > cognitive practice associated with seeing through disinheritance, > > the > > > > > > analysis draws attention to the political dimension of learning. > > The > > > > > > possible activities and therefore learning opportunities that > arise > > > > > through > > > > > > this historical perception change and assumptions about designing > > > > > learning > > > > > > environments then shifts with these methods of seeing and using > > > > > materials. > > > > > > It also draws another potential distinction between the Maker > > > Movement > > > > > and > > > > > > Kukiya?kiya. The Makers Movement doesn?t necessarily claim a > > > political > > > > > > agenda, however, by claiming something a-political or claiming an > > > > agenda > > > > > of > > > > > > advancing technological skills in the name of progress, it has a > > > > > historical > > > > > > and political situated set of values that may be in opposition to > > > those > > > > > of > > > > > > Kukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material > disinheritance > > > > > arising > > > > > > in the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? > > > (2016) > > > > > do > > > > > > a wonderful job of pointing out many of the neoliberal > consequences > > > of > > > > a > > > > > > maker movement that does not see the lineage of prototyping > > expertise > > > > > > coming from many low-income communities living in ?tight > > > > circumstances?. > > > > > > The power of the design of this prototyping project, for me, > comes > > > from > > > > > > centering local expertise in the design of the learning > > environment. > > > > > > Although prototyping is at the center of both ?making? and > > > > ?kukiya?kiya? > > > > > > practices, it seems the political sense making between settings > > > > couldn?t > > > > > be > > > > > > more different. Even within the Zaza paper, the participants > > question > > > > how > > > > > > invention might or might not lead to liberation. I appreciate > > Zaza's > > > > > > attention to how participants questioned invention and business > > > acumen > > > > > as a > > > > > > means to ?extricate Zimbabwe from its economic quandary?. A > lesser > > > > > > researcher may have ignored this comment as outside of the design > > > > process > > > > > > and therefore the data set to be analyzed. > > > > > > > > > > > > The second idea, related to the political dimensions of cognition > > > that > > > > > are > > > > > > often overlooked, is your analysis of gender and expertise in the > > > > design > > > > > > process. I am struck by how the performance of gender and > > > > > design-expertise > > > > > > came in the form of whispers and informal conversations about > > > > hand-bags. > > > > > It > > > > > > would be great to have more analysis like this one where gender > > > > networks > > > > > > inform design. In fact, it seems gender (man/woman/trans/other) > is > > > > always > > > > > > informing design, but perhaps performance of expertise that is > > > cis-male > > > > > is > > > > > > sometimes confused with having expertise at all. You analysis > > offers > > > > more > > > > > > nuance about other kinds of performance of expertise. I wonder if > > > > > > discussions about hand-bags creates the intimacy necessary to > share > > > > > > female-cis gendered understandings of design problems. I would > love > > > to > > > > > hear > > > > > > your thinking on this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, thank you for your work and for the insights that this > > article > > > > has > > > > > > provided me. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Molly Shea > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:46 PM, mike cole > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of > Zaza's > > > > paper > > > > > > > (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at any > > > > time), I > > > > > > > feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis relationship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute there, > > but > > > as > > > > > > life > > > > > > > allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, in > > at > > > > > least > > > > > > > some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It > > addresses > > > (I > > > > > > > believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a > > child > > > > is > > > > > "a > > > > > > > head taller than herself." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my > > > > > > interpretation > > > > > > > of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about > the > > > > zoped > > > > > > and > > > > > > > play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic > implications. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See what you think. its 4 pages long. > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg < > > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I > > > might > > > > > > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there > may > > > also > > > > > be > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of > > proximal > > > > > > > evolution > > > > > > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in > > the > > > > > > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a > > zone > > > > of > > > > > > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far > > longer > > > > > than I > > > > > > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a > > very > > > > good > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for > > > > > "development" > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > not for learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested > > in > > > > the > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes > > it, > > > we > > > > > are > > > > > > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an > > > > > interpersonal > > > > > > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning > > very > > > > > often > > > > > > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that > > > have > > > > > > > nothing > > > > > > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally > > > rooted. > > > > > > > Thirdly, > > > > > > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing > > > > before > > > > > we > > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to > > understand > > > > what > > > > > > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant > to > > > our > > > > > > > teaching > > > > > > > > needs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at > > > > Three", > > > > > > > part > > > > > > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of > > the > > > > > > > Collected > > > > > > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? > > ???????, > > > > > > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? > > > > ??????-???? > > > > > > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? > ????? > > > > > > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? > > > ???????????????? > > > > > > > ???????? > > > > > > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? > > ?????? > > > > > > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > > > > > > ???????????, > > > > > > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? > > > > ??????????. ? > > > > > > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? > > > > > ?????????? > > > > > > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > > > > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, > all > > > the > > > > > > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis > may > > > be > > > > > > > grouped > > > > > > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > > > > > > Consequently, > > > > > > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the > very > > > > least > > > > > > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at > this > > > > > > appointed > > > > > > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > > > > > > afterwards > > > > > > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and > > peripheral > > > > > lines > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to > evaluate > > > the > > > > > > > critical > > > > > > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal > > > development, > > > > > > i.e. > > > > > > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to > > the > > > > > > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > > > > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of > the > > > > > child's > > > > > > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > > > > > > development, > > > > > > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and > > > > > learning. > > > > > > > He > > > > > > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how > to > > > > avoid > > > > > > it: > > > > > > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on > > > Ganzheitpsychologie > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what > > we > > > > need > > > > > > to > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of > the > > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not > > have > > > > > > > > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part of > > the > > > > > > > > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis > but > > > > about > > > > > > > > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the > learning > > > > > > component > > > > > > > > > for sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow > > > students > > > > to > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of > > > > > development > > > > > > > > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the > > kind > > > > of > > > > > > > > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are > very > > > > narrow > > > > > > > > > and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents > > me > > > > from > > > > > > > > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA > literature > > > > > presents > > > > > > > > > many problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg < > > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm > > > talking > > > > > > > about. > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I > > > think > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a > > > distortion > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not > > > ontogenesis. I > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations > > that > > > > were > > > > > > > > picked > > > > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of > > > > > development". > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, > > > there > > > > > > > hasn't > > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and > > the > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will be > > done > > > > by > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > child > > > > > > > > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four > hours--is > > > > just > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. > > > > Secondly, > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next > > > zone > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's > pedological > > > > > > lectures, > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. > It's > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's > pedological > > > > > > lectures: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > > > > > > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4. > pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English > > > version, > > > > > > 1998: > > > > > > > > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on > > > > replacing > > > > > > > > "test" > > > > > > > > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace > > "diagnostic" > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings > and > > > > total > > > > > > > > > nonsense. > > > > > > > > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the > ZPD > > is > > > > NOT > > > > > > > > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality > is > > > > > > infinitely > > > > > > > > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind > > of > > > > > > > mediation, > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely > > adopted > > > > > from > > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's > > > method: > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but > > > > function > > > > > > MUST > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two > > > > > children. > > > > > > > One > > > > > > > > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is > > > simply > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and > the > > > > second > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the > right > > > > > > functional > > > > > > > > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, > etc) > > > > while > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of > > > > learning > > > > > > > > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that > > > means > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a > > > whole > > > > > lot > > > > > > > > > easier > > > > > > > > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present > and > > > the > > > > > > > future > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a > > > weird > > > > > > > > inversion > > > > > > > > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but > the > > > > future > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> David, > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able > > to > > > > > spot a > > > > > > > > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related > to > > > > > > urbanistic > > > > > > > > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they > > no > > > > > longer > > > > > > > > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not > arrive > > > to > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the > perceptual > > > > > > challenge > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > >> oral utterances. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their > > linguistic > > > > > > > > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet > written > > > > words > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the > > > Japanese > > > > > > > > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Best > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg < > > > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in > > applied > > > > > > > > > linguistics or > > > > > > > > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" > (phylogenetic, > > > > > > > > sociogenetic, > > > > > > > > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's > > > wonderful > > > > > > > article > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope > that > > it > > > > > would > > > > > > > > help > > > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > > > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > > > > > > microgenetic > > > > > > > > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg > > 2011). > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term > "microgenesis" > > > was > > > > > > around > > > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: > it's > > a > > > > > > constant > > > > > > > > > >> feature > > > > > > > > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also > strongly > > > > > > associated > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the > > term > > > > and > > > > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, > > > Koffka, > > > > > > Lewin, > > > > > > > > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't > > seem > > > > to > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > >> term > > > > > > > > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in > > Nazi > > > > > > > psychology > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, > > scathingly, > > > > > > > denounces > > > > > > > > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > > > > > > > Psychoneurology". I > > > > > > > > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it > conflates > > > > > > external > > > > > > > > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and > > "ontogenetic", > > > > > calls > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > >> "micro" > > > > > > > > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as > opposed > > > to > > > > > > > > > biological, > > > > > > > > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's > article. > > > At > > > > a > > > > > > > > > particular > > > > > > > > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in > > perceptual > > > > high > > > > > > > > > fidelity > > > > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think > if > > > she > > > > > > sees > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > >> her > > > > > > > > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to > > perceptual > > > > > > > meaning. > > > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully > > reciprocal: > > > > the > > > > > > > > specific > > > > > > > > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. > > > > > Microgenesis > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > >> you > > > > > > > > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when > > you > > > > are > > > > > > > > reading > > > > > > > > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science > with > > > an > > > > > > object > > > > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Oct 20 14:39:36 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 08:39:36 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arturo: Yes, exactly! As soon as we ripped applied linguistics out of linguistics, we started down a path of social-behaviourism. The result is, as you say, that L2 teaching has become behavioristic and na?ve in the extreme. Although, as you'll see from the other posting I wrote today, I think it's important to stress how different learning is from development, I also think that one thing that all forms of genetic change have (phylo-, socio-, onto- and micro-) is the crisis: crises are simply inherent in the process of development itself, because at some point the process of development turns back on itself and the means of development itself develops. That's why Vygotsky speaks of "cycles of development". The problem with both Leontievs (A.A. and A.L.) is that they were committed to demonstrating that development could take place without crises. I think this was a political commitment, linked to Stalin's declaration of the end of history. It is always a mistake to declare that history is at an end: that is one of the main differences between sociogenesis and ontogenesis. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Arturo Escandon wrote: > Dear David, > > I am laughing load about your exchange with Mike. > > Of course I do not discard microgenetic processes at all. Perhaps my > "unfortunately" comes from the fact that L2 teaching continuous to be > so behaviorist and naive. SLA advocates try to go round the notion of > input-output unsuccessfully. These conditions influence my research as > any social or production condition does. It is as if one could not > abstract of the institutional object set for "learning". > > What I have done is base my approach on A.A. Leontiev notions of > speech activity vis a vis communication activity to determine at least > four stages that a learner with no knowledge of a L2 must go through > to master it. Those I renamed substructural, structural, functional > and rhetorical stages. They all differ in the object of the activity. > But none of these stages is reached by one single learning activity. > So no microgenetic process can "trigger" mastery. On the contrary, > learners need to go through many learning tasks until they develop > comprehensive conceptual models for each stage. The developments of > those models run against their very understanding of their own L1. It > is hard to grasp the actual genesis of that development for the stages > cannot be clearly separated one another and because instructions is > distributed. You see, learners learn grammar with L1 speakers and > conversation with L2 speakers in more or less chaotic and asystematic > learning settings. > > The question is how one can deal with zones which do not have an age > crisis that help distinguishing one from the next. Risking deforming > the notion of zoped,I still prefer to have some kind of developmental > targets and stages rather than basing instruction on an endless chain > of learning tasks just to fill teaching time. > > Thanks for providing those Russian excerpts. > > All the best. > > > Arturo > > > On 18 October 2016 at 09:33, David Kellogg wrote: > > Arturo: > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also be a > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > evolution > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer than I > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good > idea > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for "development" > and > > not for learning. > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the what > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we are > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an interpersonal > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very often > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > nothing > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > Thirdly, > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before we > go > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > teaching > > needs. > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", > part > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > Collected > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > ???????? > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > ???????????, > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????????? > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > grouped > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. Consequently, > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this appointed > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear afterwards > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral lines > of > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > critical > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, i.e. > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the child's > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual development, > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and learning. > He > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid it: > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie that > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need to > do > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Macquarie University > > . > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Thank you for this David. > >> > >> I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > >> > >> Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > >> significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > >> assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > >> ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning component > >> for sure. > >> > >> My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to go > >> beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development > >> in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > >> interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > >> and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > >> doing large longitudinal studies. > >> > >> I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents > >> many problems. > >> > >> > >> Arturo > >> > >> > >> On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > wrote: > >> > Arturo: > >> > > >> > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking about. > >> > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think there > are > >> > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of the > >> ZPD. > >> > > >> > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I think > the > >> > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > picked > >> up > >> > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". > But > >> > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there hasn't > >> been > >> > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > >> > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by the > >> child > >> > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just too > >> > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > there > >> > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > >> > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological lectures, > but > >> > these haven't been translated yet). > >> > > >> > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > interesting > >> to > >> > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological lectures: > >> > > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > >> lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > >> > > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > >> > > >> > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, 1998: > >> > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > "test" > >> > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > >> > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > >> nonsense. > >> > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > >> > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is infinitely > >> > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > mediation, > >> can > >> > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from its > >> > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > >> > > >> > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > >> > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function MUST > be > >> > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. One > >> > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply that > the > >> > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second does > >> not. > >> > The functional explanation is that the first has the right functional > >> > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while the > >> other > >> > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > >> > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means that > they > >> > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot > >> easier > >> > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the future > >> are > >> > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > inversion > >> > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future is > >> > intrinsically non-determinable. > >> > > >> > David Kellogg > >> > Macquarie University > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > >> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> David, > >> >> > >> >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a > >> >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to urbanistic > >> >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer > >> >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that > >> >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual challenge > of > >> >> oral utterances. > >> >> > >> >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > >> >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words when > >> >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > >> >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > >> >> > >> >> Best > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Arturo Escand?n > >> >> > >> >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > wrote: > >> >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > >> linguistics or > >> >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > sociogenetic, > >> >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > article > >> on > >> >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would > help > >> us > >> >> to > >> >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and microgenetic > >> >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > >> >> > > >> >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was around > >> when > >> >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a constant > >> >> feature > >> >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly associated > >> with > >> >> the > >> >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > doesn't > >> use > >> >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > >> >> > > >> >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, Lewin, > >> >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use > the > >> >> term > >> >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > psychology > >> and > >> >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, denounces > >> >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > >> Psychoneurology". I > >> >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external > >> >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > >> >> > > >> >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls his > >> >> "micro" > >> >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > >> biological, > >> >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > >> particular > >> >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > >> fidelity > >> >> and > >> >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees > that > >> >> her > >> >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > >> >> > > >> >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual meaning. > >> But > >> >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > specific > >> >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis is > >> what > >> >> you > >> >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > reading > >> >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > >> >> > > >> >> > David Kellogg > >> >> > Macquarie University > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Oct 20 17:40:20 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 17:40:20 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David & Arturo. You lost me you got to AA Leontiev, David. Which of his writings on the organization of language learning activity can I find that he denied crises in development. In principle, such ideas should show up in flaws in his methodology. How does that work? I have read more than I have forgotten, but I would like to see how this issue influences the pedagogy. Maybe you would be interested in helping us identify texts, Arturo. Note, in our own published work on the acquisition of reading we adopt a developmental model of the process. To tell the truth, the whole process felt like a crisis for us and the kids, but qualitative change, and new modes of diagnosis, emerged. Both microgenetically (in a day's interactions) and in the ontogeny of the child as the new form of behavior spread and solidified. I have access to articles in Soviet Psychology/Journal of Russian Psychology if the requisite materials are not already in your hands. Seems like a place where questions of theory and questions of practice come together. David has been teaching L2 for a long time. Others, like Phillip, are teachers in schools where students are highly varied in their acquisition of English. A lot of others on xmca could also describe (or deny the presence of ) crises that arise when there is a qualitative shift in L1-->L2 students. I seemed to go through distinct stages, qualitative shifts, in the acquisition of spoken and written Russian. I acquired the ability to speak more quickly than to write. Reading was the refuge where I had to figure out what people had been saying in the seminar from written texts. I do not remember any moment of crisis (except that of a dumb, dangerous, foreigner, newby) when I became qualitatively different. My best evidence that it was a qualitative shift is that my wife, who went through all these events with me, does not like my personality when I spoke Russian to this day. :~) It would be totally neat to find convergence around AA Leontiev here that could generate a classic article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity.* mike On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 2:39 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Arturo: > > Yes, exactly! As soon as we ripped applied linguistics out of linguistics, > we started down a path of social-behaviourism. The result is, as you say, > that L2 teaching has become behavioristic and na?ve in the extreme. > > Although, as you'll see from the other posting I wrote today, I think it's > important to stress how different learning is from development, I also > think that one thing that all forms of genetic change have (phylo-, socio-, > onto- and micro-) is the crisis: crises are simply inherent in the process > of development itself, because at some point the process of development > turns back on itself and the means of development itself develops. That's > why Vygotsky speaks of "cycles of development". > > The problem with both Leontievs (A.A. and A.L.) is that they were committed > to demonstrating that development could take place without crises. I think > this was a political commitment, linked to Stalin's declaration of the end > of history. It is always a mistake to declare that history is at an end: > that is one of the main differences between sociogenesis and ontogenesis. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Arturo Escandon < > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Dear David, > > > > I am laughing load about your exchange with Mike. > > > > Of course I do not discard microgenetic processes at all. Perhaps my > > "unfortunately" comes from the fact that L2 teaching continuous to be > > so behaviorist and naive. SLA advocates try to go round the notion of > > input-output unsuccessfully. These conditions influence my research as > > any social or production condition does. It is as if one could not > > abstract of the institutional object set for "learning". > > > > What I have done is base my approach on A.A. Leontiev notions of > > speech activity vis a vis communication activity to determine at least > > four stages that a learner with no knowledge of a L2 must go through > > to master it. Those I renamed substructural, structural, functional > > and rhetorical stages. They all differ in the object of the activity. > > But none of these stages is reached by one single learning activity. > > So no microgenetic process can "trigger" mastery. On the contrary, > > learners need to go through many learning tasks until they develop > > comprehensive conceptual models for each stage. The developments of > > those models run against their very understanding of their own L1. It > > is hard to grasp the actual genesis of that development for the stages > > cannot be clearly separated one another and because instructions is > > distributed. You see, learners learn grammar with L1 speakers and > > conversation with L2 speakers in more or less chaotic and asystematic > > learning settings. > > > > The question is how one can deal with zones which do not have an age > > crisis that help distinguishing one from the next. Risking deforming > > the notion of zoped,I still prefer to have some kind of developmental > > targets and stages rather than basing instruction on an endless chain > > of learning tasks just to fill teaching time. > > > > Thanks for providing those Russian excerpts. > > > > All the best. > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > On 18 October 2016 at 09:33, David Kellogg wrote: > > > Arturo: > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also be > a > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > evolution > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer than I > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good > > idea > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for "development" > > and > > > not for learning. > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the > what > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we are > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an interpersonal > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very often > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > > nothing > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > > Thirdly, > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before we > > go > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > > teaching > > > needs. > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", > > part > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > Collected > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > > ???????? > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > ???????????, > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????????? > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > > grouped > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > Consequently, > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > appointed > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > afterwards > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral lines > > of > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > > critical > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, > i.e. > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the child's > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > development, > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and learning. > > He > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid > it: > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie > that > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need > to > > do > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > . > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Thank you for this David. > > >> > > >> I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > >> > > >> Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > >> significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > >> assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > >> ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning component > > >> for sure. > > >> > > >> My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to go > > >> beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development > > >> in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > >> interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > > >> and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > > >> doing large longitudinal studies. > > >> > > >> I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents > > >> many problems. > > >> > > >> > > >> Arturo > > >> > > >> > > >> On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > >> > Arturo: > > >> > > > >> > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > about. > > >> > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think there > > are > > >> > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of > the > > >> ZPD. > > >> > > > >> > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > think > > the > > >> > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > > picked > > >> up > > >> > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". > > But > > >> > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > hasn't > > >> been > > >> > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > > >> > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by the > > >> child > > >> > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just too > > >> > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > > there > > >> > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > >> > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > lectures, > > but > > >> > these haven't been translated yet). > > >> > > > >> > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > interesting > > >> to > > >> > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological lectures: > > >> > > > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > >> lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > >> > > > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > >> > > > >> > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > 1998: > > >> > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > > "test" > > >> > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > > >> > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > >> nonsense. > > >> > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > >> > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > infinitely > > >> > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > mediation, > > >> can > > >> > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from > its > > >> > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > >> > > > >> > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > > >> > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function > MUST > > be > > >> > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. > One > > >> > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply that > > the > > >> > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second > does > > >> not. > > >> > The functional explanation is that the first has the right > functional > > >> > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while > the > > >> other > > >> > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > >> > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means that > > they > > >> > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot > > >> easier > > >> > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > future > > >> are > > >> > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > inversion > > >> > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future is > > >> > intrinsically non-determinable. > > >> > > > >> > David Kellogg > > >> > Macquarie University > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > >> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> David, > > >> >> > > >> >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a > > >> >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > urbanistic > > >> >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer > > >> >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that > > >> >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual challenge > > of > > >> >> oral utterances. > > >> >> > > >> >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > >> >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words > when > > >> >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > >> >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > >> >> > > >> >> Best > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Arturo Escand?n > > >> >> > > >> >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > >> >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > >> linguistics or > > >> >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > sociogenetic, > > >> >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > > article > > >> on > > >> >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would > > help > > >> us > > >> >> to > > >> >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > microgenetic > > >> >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > around > > >> when > > >> >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > constant > > >> >> feature > > >> >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > associated > > >> with > > >> >> the > > >> >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > > doesn't > > >> use > > >> >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > Lewin, > > >> >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use > > the > > >> >> term > > >> >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > psychology > > >> and > > >> >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > denounces > > >> >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > >> Psychoneurology". I > > >> >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external > > >> >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls > his > > >> >> "micro" > > >> >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > >> biological, > > >> >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > >> particular > > >> >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > >> fidelity > > >> >> and > > >> >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees > > that > > >> >> her > > >> >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > meaning. > > >> But > > >> >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > > specific > > >> >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis > is > > >> what > > >> >> you > > >> >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > > reading > > >> >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > >> >> > > > >> >> > David Kellogg > > >> >> > Macquarie University > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From colinghdixon@gmail.com Thu Oct 20 23:20:16 2016 From: colinghdixon@gmail.com (Colin Dixon) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 23:20:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> <5808ec5f.10c0620a.63484.606e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Linked here is a read of the maker movement and related moments in history. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/01/13/making-it-2. It came to mind because it connects some of the pieces that Michael Glassman and others have put on the table. I work with some "maker" funded education efforts, and think that nearly all of the critiques described here stick. The characterizations of resources, values and politics don't ring true everywhere, but enough places to worry. However, to Shirin's concern, I'll share a reflection. When working today with a 'maker club' in a high school (albeit one with a somewhat alternative structure, if not a lot of resources), one thing that struck me was the degree to which the students saw in their 'maker club' an opportunity to make types of relationships they didn't feel they could establish in other parts of the school. Many of them described it, and aspired for it, to be a place where they could relate to peers - across grades, interests, and cliques - as well as teachers, in ways that felt different and important. This was primary goal - that seemed to be more important than the objects they were interested in creating. At least that's what they told an educator/researcher. I have also seen the importance of maker spaces in schools as places that allow young people to keep working in school on things they do or are interested in outside of school - which is, i think, mostly about subject-subject, even when disguised as subject-object. I don't know that these phenomena have to do with the activity of 'making' or a connection to 'maker movement', (and maybe they happen despite the maker movement, given it's rhetorical focus). It may just be about sneaking open-ended work and less hierarchical structures into school, under the hood of a laser cutter. Therefore, the claim isn't that 'making' is anything new, but that it may be able, currently, to create a place to retain some of the old that's being squeezed out elsewhere (whether that's creative species being, or just just friendship). It's no excuse to stop advocating for and creating this space in other parts of schools, of course. As Vossoughi, Escude and Hooper's article shows, what constitutes 'making' is still being contested. In schools (or afterschool programs - many of which, with STEM at the bow, are looking more and more schoolish), I think there are people working to do with prototyping what Zaza's describes above as the power of prototyping: create spaces where the learners "realize there are alternative subject positions" and start to see a role for themselves in producing the environments (like schools) in which they are positioned as (coerced) consumers. That's an optimistic take. Producing those environments through the manufacture of objects is perhaps not the appropriate place to start, given the abundance and history of objects in US society. But political structures social relations can feel impenetrable when looked at head on - as Zaza's great article makes clear. usually just listening, - Colin On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Shirin Vossoughi < shirinvossoughi@gmail.com> wrote: > Thank you Phillip and all > > I was very happy to come across the Chachra as I think she draws attention > to these other forms of making (mending, repair, caring) that may be > undervalued by the "maker movement", but also that making itself as an > umbrella term that other forms of human activity are now somehow > accountable to is too narrow. Here is her piece for those who might be > interested: > http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/why-i- > am-not-a-maker/384767/ > > One of the things that continues to worry me is the focus on subject-object > relations over and above subject-subject relations within making. Or that > subject-subject relations become valued in so far as they lead to the > generation of more innovative products, but not as ends in themselves > (maybe this is more along the lines of conviviality?). This relates in my > mind to the ways teaching is often positioned as inherently didactic and > problematic rather than as a potentially powerful, beautiful (and > bi-directional) relation. > > Zaza I am very much looking forward to reading your paper. Thank you for > sharing it here. > > Shirin > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 1:16 PM, White, Phillip < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> > wrote: > > > to further support for the case that more is being consumed than > > information, and conviviality, i quote Jean Lave, from Teaching as > Learning > > - "I began to inquire into just what was being learned by the > apprentices, > > and found that the apprentices were learning many complex "lessons" at > > once. To name a few: they were learning relations among the major social > > identities and divisions in Liberian society which they were in the > > business of dressing. They were learning to make a life, to make a > living, > > to make clothes, to grow old enough, and mature enough to become master > > tailors, and to see the truth of the respect due to a master of their > > trade. It seems trivially true that they were never doing only one of > these > > things at a time." > > > > > > Teaching, as Learning. in Practice > > > > Jean Lave > > > > > > phillip > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > > Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 10:10:01 AM > > To: Zaza Kabayadondo; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > Phillip, Michael, Mike > > To say: Consumed can be an example of full engagement and what is being > > consumed is more than information, what is also being consumed is (shared > > feelings) to my ears can be related to Michael?s reminder and return to > > *tools of conviviality* and also to Franklin who with the guidance of > > Vivian is learning (and developing) democratic spirit. > > > > On page 212 of the article by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escude is also > > explored when they reference Chachra (2015) who juxtaposes the KINDS of > > human activity that *tend to be* (intend, intentional, intentional/ity as > > multiple lines) VALUED by the maker movement with the everyday practices > > that have been the practices of women. > > > > These historically practiced ways of making such as: > > Mending, repairing, teaching, caregoving. > > > > The case the article presents is that the making movement may be > devaluing > > and delegitimizing these tools of conviviality. Self-identifying with > the > > maker movement may develop through ones *gestures* (meaning making) a > > gendered way of moving that exemplifies possible gendered forms of > > engineering design and educational *products* and *productivity* (notice > > the ity that to my ears calls forth *inner* meaning) > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > From: Zaza Kabayadondo > > Sent: October 19, 2016 7:32 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > Thank you for sharing Vossoughi, Harper and Escud?'s paper on the > > appropriation of "making" in schools. I'm adding this to my syllabus for > > next semester! > > > > I agree with Mike, Peg and Molly's suggestion that there seems to be a > > natural affinity between the AT in CHAT and prototyping. > > > > On the topic of production and consumption: the potency in prototyping > lies > > in the contexts for prototyping where learners/prototypers realize there > > are alternative subject positions for them to occupy. Through prototyping > > they start to shift from seeing their relationship to the material world > as > > one of consumption to seeing the role they can play as producers. Often > > this role is subversive, and therein lies the difference between > > kukiya-kiya (and the glossary of similar terms, jailbreaking etc) and > maker > > movement. So I guess, what I'm concerned with here is the difference in > > subject positions associated with consumption and production. > > > > Kukiya-kiya is a situated, emergent, form of activity that responds to > and > > evolves with political context of subjects who are excluded or > disinherited > > (kukiya-kiya) while Maker movement (making as a form of club activity > > celebrated for its liberatory potential) at least in its present form, > > mostly entails activity that is sanitized from all political inflection > and > > with little proffered in the form of recourse for justice, equity, > access, > > ownership of the material. If both are meant to equip learners with a way > > of thinking about materials as a form of access to things, processes, > > systems they do not have access to, kukiya-kiya does so without making to > > much of itself while making (of the maker movement) is all pomp and > little > > sense of "how is this useful to me in my situation [of disinheritance]" > for > > individual learners. > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:15 PM, White, Phillip < > > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> > > wrote: > > > > > My off the top of my head, Michael, is that in part information is > being > > > consumed - as well as shared feelings of success, or frustration, or > good > > > cheer. > > > > > > Perhaps, even in a Batesonian-way. Imminent mind is being both produced > > > and consumed. > > > > > > And of course, to consume can also be an example of full engagement > > > (consumed with interest) and the root is "to take up". > > > > > > Some thoughts. > > > > > > Phillip > > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > > > Original Message > > > From: mike cole > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:45 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > > > > > > Hell, Peg -- I cannot get my tomatoes to grow in the odd weather we > have > > > had this summer, let alone get them to market. Pretty much can be said > > for > > > my scholarly efforts as well! > > > > > > I have been mulling over why prototyping and CHAT appear to have a kind > > of > > > natural affinity. I am speculating at the moment that both are focused > on > > > production, and the AT part of CHAT is very clearly focused on > > production. > > > Just think of the activities of those who attend, say, ISCAR. > > > > > > But production is intimately (dare I say dialectically?) related to > > > consumption. Where is the good CHAT scholarship on the Foodie movement? > > > What is being consumed in an activity-centered classroom or a > > developmental > > > work research change lab? Seems worth inquiring about. > > > mike > > > > > > mike > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and > > preferred) > > > > spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found > "jerry-built" > > as > > > > another term. > > > > (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it "jerry-rigged"). > > > > > > > > These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, simultaneously > has > > > > connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I > could > > > say > > > > why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - Ikea > > > hacking). > > > > > > > > "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking your > > > > iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and rebuild it > > for > > > > some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who was > > > > building an online educational credentialing website that used the > > phrase > > > > "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but I > > > support > > > > the idea in principle). > > > > > > > > Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve and it > > > seems > > > > > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. It is > in > > > > > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other > > languages: > > > > > > > > > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I should > add > > > that > > > > > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a little bit > > > > clumsy > > > > > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat > derisive > > > way > > > > to > > > > > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat > > different > > > > from > > > > > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and haste > > and > > > > > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has something to > do > > > > with > > > > > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" > manufacture > > > in > > > > > the U.S. > > > > > > > > > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with different > > > > > cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. > kukiya-kiya. > > > > > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker movement > > has > > > > > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to recover > > one's > > > > > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx > reference > > > (and > > > > > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a kukiya-kiya > > > attempt > > > > to > > > > > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that they > > > > > certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). > > > > > > > > > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation of > > > > necessity > > > > > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see there > on > > > the > > > > > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? Or if > > > this > > > > > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there actually > > both > > > > > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy in > > > > > creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > > > > > > > > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > > > > > > > > > Very best, > > > > > greg > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work > on > > > > Kukiya > > > > >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I > > > > suggest a > > > > >> new thread with the title, prototyping. > > > > >> > > > > >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested > by > > > > Molly. > > > > >> > > > > >> mike > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> > > > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > an > > > > >> object > > > > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Fri Oct 21 05:50:47 2016 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 12:50:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> <5808ec5f.10c0620a.63484.606e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4B094@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Colin, Thanks for the article. This article suggests that the Maker movement is indeed very litertarian in nature. Kevin Kelley and Chris Anderson are very libertarian in their thinking and are probably behind the role of this thinking among computer enthusiasts (through Wired). I'm not sure I agree with some of Morozov's other ideas though. Stuart Brand was peripheral to the personal computer movement (he was actually mostly out of it from 1972-77 when much of it was going on). He did organize the first Hacker conference, but that was in response to Steven Levy's book about the Homebrew Computer Club and the emergence of gaming on the West Coast where he called many of the people involved hackers). But the characters involved in the beginnings of the Maker movement convince that the Vossoughi, Escude and Hooper's article was really on the mark. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Colin Dixon Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 2:20 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping Linked here is a read of the maker movement and related moments in history. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/01/13/making-it-2. It came to mind because it connects some of the pieces that Michael Glassman and others have put on the table. I work with some "maker" funded education efforts, and think that nearly all of the critiques described here stick. The characterizations of resources, values and politics don't ring true everywhere, but enough places to worry. However, to Shirin's concern, I'll share a reflection. When working today with a 'maker club' in a high school (albeit one with a somewhat alternative structure, if not a lot of resources), one thing that struck me was the degree to which the students saw in their 'maker club' an opportunity to make types of relationships they didn't feel they could establish in other parts of the school. Many of them described it, and aspired for it, to be a place where they could relate to peers - across grades, interests, and cliques - as well as teachers, in ways that felt different and important. This was primary goal - that seemed to be more important than the objects they were interested in creating. At least that's what they told an educator/researcher. I have also seen the importance of maker spaces in schools as places that allow young people to keep working in school on things they do or are interested in outside of school - which is, i think, mostly about subject-subject, even when disguised as subject-object. I don't know that these phenomena have to do with the activity of 'making' or a connection to 'maker movement', (and maybe they happen despite the maker movement, given it's rhetorical focus). It may just be about sneaking open-ended work and less hierarchical structures into school, under the hood of a laser cutter. Therefore, the claim isn't that 'making' is anything new, but that it may be able, currently, to create a place to retain some of the old that's being squeezed out elsewhere (whether that's creative species being, or just just friendship). It's no excuse to stop advocating for and creating this space in other parts of schools, of course. As Vossoughi, Escude and Hooper's article shows, what constitutes 'making' is still being contested. In schools (or afterschool programs - many of which, with STEM at the bow, are looking more and more schoolish), I think there are people working to do with prototyping what Zaza's describes above as the power of prototyping: create spaces where the learners "realize there are alternative subject positions" and start to see a role for themselves in producing the environments (like schools) in which they are positioned as (coerced) consumers. That's an optimistic take. Producing those environments through the manufacture of objects is perhaps not the appropriate place to start, given the abundance and history of objects in US society. But political structures social relations can feel impenetrable when looked at head on - as Zaza's great article makes clear. usually just listening, - Colin On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Shirin Vossoughi < shirinvossoughi@gmail.com> wrote: > Thank you Phillip and all > > I was very happy to come across the Chachra as I think she draws > attention to these other forms of making (mending, repair, caring) > that may be undervalued by the "maker movement", but also that making > itself as an umbrella term that other forms of human activity are now > somehow accountable to is too narrow. Here is her piece for those who > might be > interested: > http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/why-i- > am-not-a-maker/384767/ > > One of the things that continues to worry me is the focus on > subject-object relations over and above subject-subject relations > within making. Or that subject-subject relations become valued in so > far as they lead to the generation of more innovative products, but > not as ends in themselves (maybe this is more along the lines of > conviviality?). This relates in my mind to the ways teaching is often > positioned as inherently didactic and problematic rather than as a > potentially powerful, beautiful (and > bi-directional) relation. > > Zaza I am very much looking forward to reading your paper. Thank you > for sharing it here. > > Shirin > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 1:16 PM, White, Phillip < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> > wrote: > > > to further support for the case that more is being consumed than > > information, and conviviality, i quote Jean Lave, from Teaching as > Learning > > - "I began to inquire into just what was being learned by the > apprentices, > > and found that the apprentices were learning many complex "lessons" > > at once. To name a few: they were learning relations among the major > > social identities and divisions in Liberian society which they were > > in the business of dressing. They were learning to make a life, to > > make a > living, > > to make clothes, to grow old enough, and mature enough to become > > master tailors, and to see the truth of the respect due to a master > > of their trade. It seems trivially true that they were never doing > > only one of > these > > things at a time." > > > > > > Teaching, as Learning. in Practice > > > > Jean Lave > > > > > > phillip > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 10:10:01 AM > > To: Zaza Kabayadondo; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > Phillip, Michael, Mike > > To say: Consumed can be an example of full engagement and what is > > being consumed is more than information, what is also being consumed > > is (shared > > feelings) to my ears can be related to Michael?s reminder and return > > to *tools of conviviality* and also to Franklin who with the > > guidance of Vivian is learning (and developing) democratic spirit. > > > > On page 212 of the article by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escude is also > > explored when they reference Chachra (2015) who juxtaposes the KINDS > > of human activity that *tend to be* (intend, intentional, > > intentional/ity as multiple lines) VALUED by the maker movement with > > the everyday practices that have been the practices of women. > > > > These historically practiced ways of making such as: > > Mending, repairing, teaching, caregoving. > > > > The case the article presents is that the making movement may be > devaluing > > and delegitimizing these tools of conviviality. Self-identifying > > with > the > > maker movement may develop through ones *gestures* (meaning making) > > a gendered way of moving that exemplifies possible gendered forms of > > engineering design and educational *products* and *productivity* > > (notice the ity that to my ears calls forth *inner* meaning) > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > From: Zaza Kabayadondo > > Sent: October 19, 2016 7:32 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > Thank you for sharing Vossoughi, Harper and Escud?'s paper on the > > appropriation of "making" in schools. I'm adding this to my syllabus > > for next semester! > > > > I agree with Mike, Peg and Molly's suggestion that there seems to be > > a natural affinity between the AT in CHAT and prototyping. > > > > On the topic of production and consumption: the potency in > > prototyping > lies > > in the contexts for prototyping where learners/prototypers realize > > there are alternative subject positions for them to occupy. Through > > prototyping they start to shift from seeing their relationship to > > the material world > as > > one of consumption to seeing the role they can play as producers. > > Often this role is subversive, and therein lies the difference > > between kukiya-kiya (and the glossary of similar terms, jailbreaking > > etc) and > maker > > movement. So I guess, what I'm concerned with here is the difference > > in subject positions associated with consumption and production. > > > > Kukiya-kiya is a situated, emergent, form of activity that responds > > to > and > > evolves with political context of subjects who are excluded or > disinherited > > (kukiya-kiya) while Maker movement (making as a form of club > > activity celebrated for its liberatory potential) at least in its > > present form, mostly entails activity that is sanitized from all > > political inflection > and > > with little proffered in the form of recourse for justice, equity, > access, > > ownership of the material. If both are meant to equip learners with > > a way of thinking about materials as a form of access to things, > > processes, systems they do not have access to, kukiya-kiya does so > > without making to much of itself while making (of the maker > > movement) is all pomp and > little > > sense of "how is this useful to me in my situation [of disinheritance]" > for > > individual learners. > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:15 PM, White, Phillip < > > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> > > wrote: > > > > > My off the top of my head, Michael, is that in part information is > being > > > consumed - as well as shared feelings of success, or frustration, > > > or > good > > > cheer. > > > > > > Perhaps, even in a Batesonian-way. Imminent mind is being both > > > produced and consumed. > > > > > > And of course, to consume can also be an example of full > > > engagement (consumed with interest) and the root is "to take up". > > > > > > Some thoughts. > > > > > > Phillip > > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > > > Original Message > > > From: mike cole > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:45 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Reply To: eXtended Mind, > > > Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > > > > > > Hell, Peg -- I cannot get my tomatoes to grow in the odd weather > > > we > have > > > had this summer, let alone get them to market. Pretty much can be > > > said > > for > > > my scholarly efforts as well! > > > > > > I have been mulling over why prototyping and CHAT appear to have a > > > kind > > of > > > natural affinity. I am speculating at the moment that both are > > > focused > on > > > production, and the AT part of CHAT is very clearly focused on > > production. > > > Just think of the activities of those who attend, say, ISCAR. > > > > > > But production is intimately (dare I say dialectically?) related > > > to consumption. Where is the good CHAT scholarship on the Foodie movement? > > > What is being consumed in an activity-centered classroom or a > > developmental > > > work research change lab? Seems worth inquiring about. > > > mike > > > > > > mike > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and > > preferred) > > > > spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found > "jerry-built" > > as > > > > another term. > > > > (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it "jerry-rigged"). > > > > > > > > These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, > > > > simultaneously > has > > > > connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I > could > > > say > > > > why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - > > > > Ikea > > > hacking). > > > > > > > > "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking > > > > your iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and > > > > rebuild it > > for > > > > some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who > > > > was building an online educational credentialing website that > > > > used the > > phrase > > > > "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but > > > > I > > > support > > > > the idea in principle). > > > > > > > > Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve > > > > > and it > > > seems > > > > > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. > > > > > It is > in > > > > > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other > > languages: > > > > > > > > > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I > > > > > should > add > > > that > > > > > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a > > > > > little bit > > > > clumsy > > > > > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat > derisive > > > way > > > > to > > > > > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat > > different > > > > from > > > > > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and > > > > > haste > > and > > > > > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has > > > > > something to > do > > > > with > > > > > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" > manufacture > > > in > > > > > the U.S. > > > > > > > > > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with > > > > > different cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. > kukiya-kiya. > > > > > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker > > > > > movement > > has > > > > > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to > > > > > recover > > one's > > > > > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx > reference > > > (and > > > > > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a > > > > > kukiya-kiya > > > attempt > > > > to > > > > > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that > > > > > they certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). > > > > > > > > > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation > > > > > of > > > > necessity > > > > > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see > > > > > there > on > > > the > > > > > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? > > > > > Or if > > > this > > > > > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there > > > > > actually > > both > > > > > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy > > > > > in creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > > > > > > > > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > > > > > > > > > Very best, > > > > > greg > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's > > > > >> work > on > > > > Kukiya > > > > >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent > > > > >> societies, I > > > > suggest a > > > > >> new thread with the title, prototyping. > > > > >> > > > > >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? > > > > >> suggested > by > > > > Molly. > > > > >> > > > > >> mike > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> > > > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science > > > > >> with > an > > > > >> object > > > > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > > > an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 08:22:01 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 08:22:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: References: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> <5808ec5f.10c0620a.63484.606e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <580a327e.1a4f620a.3a897.cfc7@mx.google.com> Shirin, Your question concerning if the subject object aspect is privileged, the subject subject aspect may recede into the shadows is the aspect I was exploring. I was bringing in Merleau Pont because he emphasizes actions AS gestures in order to indicate our actions as gestures express meaning and meaning potential within our gestures. Therefore when one subject [person] picks up something [such as a musical instrument]in such a way as to draw the attention of another subject [person] and plays music then the instrument is expressing meaning [musicality] as *subject matter*. It is the subject matter [the inner meaning or musicality] that the subject-subject actions [gesturing] is bringing into being with this subject matter potentiality. The listener who has been oriented toward this subject matter/ meaning potential is invited into a space or place or situated way of expressing the instruments *inner* meaning. Vygotsky said the word is like a raindrop which expresses consciousness as inner meaning. The word *In* action is the word *in* gestures and Merleau Ponty emphasizes using words is languaging and all languaging is gesturing. Now we all develop styles of gesturing as intending actions expressing subject matters that matter and this gesturing as intending occurs on multiple levels, each of us implicating the other in worlds of subject matters that matter creating worlds of meaning [and meaning potential] We move back [into history] and forth into [potential] but the gesturing occurring is always back and forth When later the person who heard the musical instrument played he is now living in an assumptive subject matter and is also a resumptive subject matter and presumptive subject matter that now exists because of the previous subject-subject gesturing that previously invited and carried the listening subject into this meaningful world of musicality through gesturing. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Shirin Vossoughi Sent: October 20, 2016 12:33 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping Thank you Phillip and all I was very happy to come across the Chachra as I think she draws attention to these other forms of making (mending, repair, caring) that may be undervalued by the "maker movement", but also that making itself as an umbrella term that other forms of human activity are now somehow accountable to is too narrow. Here is her piece for those who might be interested: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/why-i-am-not-a-maker/384767/ One of the things that continues to worry me is the focus on subject-object relations over and above subject-subject relations within making. Or that subject-subject relations become valued in so far as they lead to the generation of more innovative products, but not as ends in themselves (maybe this is more along the lines of conviviality?). This relates in my mind to the ways teaching is often positioned as inherently didactic and problematic rather than as a potentially powerful, beautiful (and bi-directional) relation. Zaza I am very much looking forward to reading your paper. Thank you for sharing it here. Shirin On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 1:16 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > to further support for the case that more is being consumed than > information, and conviviality, i quote Jean Lave, from Teaching as Learning > - "I began to inquire into just what was being learned by the apprentices, > and found that the apprentices were learning many complex "lessons" at > once. To name a few: they were learning relations among the major social > identities and divisions in Liberian society which they were in the > business of dressing. They were learning to make a life, to make a living, > to make clothes, to grow old enough, and mature enough to become master > tailors, and to see the truth of the respect due to a master of their > trade. It seems trivially true that they were never doing only one of these > things at a time." > > > Teaching, as Learning. in Practice > > Jean Lave > > > phillip > > > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 10:10:01 AM > To: Zaza Kabayadondo; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > Phillip, Michael, Mike > To say: Consumed can be an example of full engagement and what is being > consumed is more than information, what is also being consumed is (shared > feelings) to my ears can be related to Michael?s reminder and return to > *tools of conviviality* and also to Franklin who with the guidance of > Vivian is learning (and developing) democratic spirit. > > On page 212 of the article by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escude is also > explored when they reference Chachra (2015) who juxtaposes the KINDS of > human activity that *tend to be* (intend, intentional, intentional/ity as > multiple lines) VALUED by the maker movement with the everyday practices > that have been the practices of women. > > These historically practiced ways of making such as: > Mending, repairing, teaching, caregoving. > > The case the article presents is that the making movement may be devaluing > and delegitimizing these tools of conviviality. Self-identifying with the > maker movement may develop through ones *gestures* (meaning making) a > gendered way of moving that exemplifies possible gendered forms of > engineering design and educational *products* and *productivity* (notice > the ity that to my ears calls forth *inner* meaning) > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Zaza Kabayadondo > Sent: October 19, 2016 7:32 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > Thank you for sharing Vossoughi, Harper and Escud?'s paper on the > appropriation of "making" in schools. I'm adding this to my syllabus for > next semester! > > I agree with Mike, Peg and Molly's suggestion that there seems to be a > natural affinity between the AT in CHAT and prototyping. > > On the topic of production and consumption: the potency in prototyping lies > in the contexts for prototyping where learners/prototypers realize there > are alternative subject positions for them to occupy. Through prototyping > they start to shift from seeing their relationship to the material world as > one of consumption to seeing the role they can play as producers. Often > this role is subversive, and therein lies the difference between > kukiya-kiya (and the glossary of similar terms, jailbreaking etc) and maker > movement. So I guess, what I'm concerned with here is the difference in > subject positions associated with consumption and production. > > Kukiya-kiya is a situated, emergent, form of activity that responds to and > evolves with political context of subjects who are excluded or disinherited > (kukiya-kiya) while Maker movement (making as a form of club activity > celebrated for its liberatory potential) at least in its present form, > mostly entails activity that is sanitized from all political inflection and > with little proffered in the form of recourse for justice, equity, access, > ownership of the material. If both are meant to equip learners with a way > of thinking about materials as a form of access to things, processes, > systems they do not have access to, kukiya-kiya does so without making to > much of itself while making (of the maker movement) is all pomp and little > sense of "how is this useful to me in my situation [of disinheritance]" for > individual learners. > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:15 PM, White, Phillip < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> > wrote: > > > My off the top of my head, Michael, is that in part information is being > > consumed - as well as shared feelings of success, or frustration, or good > > cheer. > > > > Perhaps, even in a Batesonian-way. Imminent mind is being both produced > > and consumed. > > > > And of course, to consume can also be an example of full engagement > > (consumed with interest) and the root is "to take up". > > > > Some thoughts. > > > > Phillip > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > > Original Message > > From: mike cole > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:45 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > > > Hell, Peg -- I cannot get my tomatoes to grow in the odd weather we have > > had this summer, let alone get them to market. Pretty much can be said > for > > my scholarly efforts as well! > > > > I have been mulling over why prototyping and CHAT appear to have a kind > of > > natural affinity. I am speculating at the moment that both are focused on > > production, and the AT part of CHAT is very clearly focused on > production. > > Just think of the activities of those who attend, say, ISCAR. > > > > But production is intimately (dare I say dialectically?) related to > > consumption. Where is the good CHAT scholarship on the Foodie movement? > > What is being consumed in an activity-centered classroom or a > developmental > > work research change lab? Seems worth inquiring about. > > mike > > > > mike > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and > preferred) > > > spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found "jerry-built" > as > > > another term. > > > (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it "jerry-rigged"). > > > > > > These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, simultaneously has > > > connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I could > > say > > > why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - Ikea > > hacking). > > > > > > "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking your > > > iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and rebuild it > for > > > some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who was > > > building an online educational credentialing website that used the > phrase > > > "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but I > > support > > > the idea in principle). > > > > > > Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve and it > > seems > > > > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. It is in > > > > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other > languages: > > > > > > > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I should add > > that > > > > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a little bit > > > clumsy > > > > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat derisive > > way > > > to > > > > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat > different > > > from > > > > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and haste > and > > > > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has something to do > > > with > > > > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" manufacture > > in > > > > the U.S. > > > > > > > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with different > > > > cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. kukiya-kiya. > > > > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker movement > has > > > > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to recover > one's > > > > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx reference > > (and > > > > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a kukiya-kiya > > attempt > > > to > > > > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that they > > > > certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" ways)). > > > > > > > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation of > > > necessity > > > > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see there on > > the > > > > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? Or if > > this > > > > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there actually > both > > > > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy in > > > > creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > > > > > > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > > > > > > > Very best, > > > > greg > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's work on > > > Kukiya > > > >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent societies, I > > > suggest a > > > >> new thread with the title, prototyping. > > > >> > > > >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? suggested by > > > Molly. > > > >> > > > >> mike > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> > > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > >> object > > > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 09:12:39 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 17:12:39 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 October 2016 at 22:26, David Kellogg wrote: > Huw: Welcome back! We missed you. I keep trying to download your paper, > but academia.edu just sets up an account for me instead. I already have an > account, thank you very much, and I just want to see your paper. What do I > do? > log in? I'll respond on the maker/prototyping thread. Best, Huw > > Mike: I didn't mean to suggest that you were in any way trying to make > light of my mother's dementia; I didn't even mean to suggest that her fate > was particularly tragic (I get carried away by it sometimes, but she > doesn't any more). Yet I think that the very fact that her fate evokes > those feelings in me and in others, whereas we would not feel this way > about a real two-year-old, does suggest that time's arrow is a very real > part of our interpersonal ontogenesis. > > Yes, I think the "Angelus Novus" (both Klee and Benjamin) is apposite: > human progress is real, but it is very hard to believe that when you are in > the thick of it and you don't really have a clear sense of how it is all > going to come out. But that needn't be true of xmca postings, so let me try > to sort out some of the points I was trying to make. > > a) I was comparing the deterioration of higher psychological functions to > Zaza's notion of disinheritance, not to prototyping. I see the two as > distinct, and it seems to me that the difference is precisely that the > former is retroleptic (it harkens back to a previous, less developed form) > and the latter is proleptic (it brings the future into the present). For > example, using a washing machine to store rice because there isn't any > power is an example of disinheritance: it is retroleptic, because it > harkens back to a non-electrified, subsistence agriculture past. But using > the contents of a rubbish bin to create a prosthetic device that allows men > to nurse their newborn children is an example of prototyping: it is > proleptic, because it enables a neo-formation: a function that is "newly > built and not previously present in the prior steps of development" > (Vygotsky's lecture on early childhood). > > b) I was trying to show that sociogenesis and phylogenesis are different in > principle: they aren't just different in timescale (i.e. I think that > sociogenesis is not just a kind of fast-forward phylogenesis). The Nazi era > you evoke is a good example: the Nazis believed that their eugenic policies > (the extermination of the weak, the mentally ill, and of course > the racially inferior, i.e. you and me) were simply a way of speeding up a > natural process. Yes, human progress since the replacement of hunting and > gathering with herding and growing has been checkered: it has been, for the > most part, a natural process rather than a designed one. But public health > (I mean preventive rather than curative medicine) and universal literacy (I > mean compulsory primary education) are not equivocal in their nature > precisely because they are proleptic; I don't think it's possible to be > agnostic or ambivalent about the expansion of human potential that they > have brought about: more people live longer and get more done, and that is > the Spinozan definition of "good". These unequivocal human advances were > enabled, not by people trying to speed up the process of natural selection > and extinction, but rather by people trying to overcome them. Public health > and universal literacy benefit the very young and the very old > disproportionately at first, but we all benefit when the level of public > contagion and the level of ignorance in cultural and political discourse is > reduced. Besides, we were all once very young, even if some of us will > never be very old. So it seems to me that sociogenesis is never just a > concentration of phylogenesis. > > c) I think that ontogenesis and sociogenesis are also different in > principle and not simply in timescale. Take a look at this (warning: people > with progressive, child-centred views on teaching children will find it > hard to watch!): > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwPPWnTrUs0 > > A Chinese family is teaching their four-year-old the multiplication tables. > She is pretty good at first, but she keeps getting stuck at "three times > five is fifteen". Her mother makes her repeat it three or four times. This > actually makes the problem a little worse because "three times five" gets > stuck in her head and she gets confused when she tries to talk about four, > five, and six times five. Finally, she decides that "three times five" is > too difficult, although of course using the method of rote memorization we > really cannot say that it is any more difficult than any of the others, and > her tears, barely suppressed throughout, overcome her. Now, at her age, my > niece (who is now college age) was already using an abacus (and she was not > good at rote memo as a result). But at that age, my wife (who is now nearly > fifty) was still playing jacks with the ankle bones of sheep; my > mother-in-law (who died three years ago) was herding cattle, and if we go > back further we get to the many generations of Chinese women for whom > education was unthinkable. It's not just that education has been speeded > up: it's that it has been in many ways reversed--initially a natural > process clearly related to production and reproduction, it then became a > process of using extra-mental signs (ankle bones and abacuses), and now an > attempt to proceed immediately to rote internalization. It's not just a > quantitative change; it's that the very path of development has changed, > precisely because of the previous paths of development (as Arturo would > say, the existence of the L1 ensures that L2 is not just a recapitulation). > It appears that with ontogenesis too is not a concentration of > sociogenesis. > > d) I think that learning and development are similarly different. That > is, learning is not just a distillation of pre-existing or of hypothetical > development but in some ways a negation and sublation of it. Learning and > development are different for all the reasons that Vygotsky argues in > Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech: learning is a more general notion, it > is more external, it is less volitional and less consciously aware; > development is age specific, it is part the structuration and > restructuration of a whole psychological system, it occurs at the > personality end of the pole connecting the child to the environment rather > than the environmental end, and it is the result of expansion of > personality. So when learning leads development (as in Franklin's > case) there is a certain clash: Franklin has to set aside a mode of > learning and a skill set that has become natural to him and develop a new > formation instead. > > If we want comparisons with other timescales, this clash is where we should > look: it is comparable to when children grow up to be themselves rather > than their parents, or when humans learn to adapt the environment to > themselves rather than adapt to it. It's not simply the case that learning > is development writ small, or a development on a very short timescale: > there is a qualitative, structural difference between learning and > development, because one of them is led by others and tends to the > retroleptic (because others are often interested in social reproduction), > and the other led by the child (who has other things on her or his mind). > But if learning and development are as different in kind as evolution and > social progress, or social progress and child development--and I believe > that they truly are--we cannot say that learning is simply "microgenesis", > the microscopic study of development that the Leipzig school of > Ganzheitpsychologie school had in mind. It is interesting that the Leipzig > school was mostly interested in lower level psychological functions (e.g. > perception) and perhaps also non-coincidental that most of them became > ardent Nazis (Felix Krueger, Eric Jaensch, Hans Volkelt, Narziss Ach, > Oswald Kroh and others). > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 5:58 AM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > Apropos of the wreckage of sense-making and development in relation to > AT, > > the following may provide some historical clarification: > > > > https://www.academia.edu/24660665/A_Comparison_of_ > > Seven_Historical_Research_Orientations_within_CHAT_up_to_2001_ > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 20 October 2016 at 01:27, mike cole wrote: > > > > > I did not intend to demean your mother's situation, David. > > > And the following makes your examples concrete: > > > > > > I think that the three > > > strategies I gave you (pronouns, delight that masks astonishment, and > > > avoiding explanations) really are rooted in the lower psychological > > > functions and not in higher functions:* pronominal meaning can be > simply* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *indicative rather than nominative, delight is an example of her > > > inabilityto divide affect from will, and avoiding "why" is an example > of > > > the loss ofsemantic meaning and reliance on the visual purview alone. > The > > > last time Itook language samples from her, they were comparable to > those > > of > > > a two yearold. * > > > > > > But if one adopts your view, why do you liken the deteriorization of > her > > > higher psychological functions to the kind of work around > > > illustrated by prototyping under difficult conditions? > > > > > > *Perhaps its because you view sociogenesis as "the very* > > > *opposite: public health, compulsory education, and the knowledge that > > > it? is precisely our ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the > > > very? young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for > > > everybody,and not simply the very young and very old.* > > > > > > *?*With respect to public health the evidence I know of indicate that > the > > > agricultural revolution, and subsequent urbanization led to a > > > deteriorization of life expectancy and health for the population as a > > whole > > > (however much it benefited the elites). *?*(As a priveleged member of > the > > > privileged classes I would have been dead several times in the last > > couple > > > of decades had it not been for modern medicine-- my younger brother > died > > 40 > > > years before me of pancreatitis which is now routinely treatable). > > > > > > > > > The high high and highest level of civilization of Germany in 1930 did > > > nothing to prevent the rise of Hitler and its aftermath -- and we can > see > > > that scenario playing out daily in the US at present,,,, hopefully to a > > > different conclusion. > > > > > > With respect to the microgenesis/ontogeny issue, I gave yet to figure > out > > > the source of your confidence in their dissimilarity. I brought up > > Franklin > > > in the blocks (again - its a part of your ontogeny but not that of most > > who > > > participate on xmca at present) because it seems to be an example of > > > microgenesis-as-developmental change. > > > > > > With respect to the idea that humans now exhibit the > > > ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the very > > > ? > > > young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for > > > everybody,*and > > > not simply the very young and very old.* > > > *? ?-- *I really am not sure > > > what you are referring to. > > > > > > As always, your ideas are interesting and enlightening, even when I do > > not > > > properly understand them. Exhibiting my ignorance has the virtue of > > > provoking the conditions for deeper understanding. My likening your > > > mother's loss of semantic meaning to my (so far normal) "senior > moments" > > > did not envision an (almost) total loss of functions, higher and lower > by > > > Vygotky's reckoning. It is as if the multiple layers of history to be > > seen > > > in Rome were reduced by war and weather to the bottom-most stratum of > the > > > pre-Etruscan. > > > > > > ?mike? > > > > > > PS-- With regard to cultural-historical/societal genesis Benjamin's > > Angelus > > > Novus often comes to mind. > > > > > > A Klee painting "Angelus Novus" shows an angel looking as though he is > > > about to move away from something he is fixedly contemplating. His eyes > > are > > > staring, his mouth is open, his wings are spread. This is how one > > pictures > > > the > > > > > > angel of history. His face is turned toward the past. Where we > perceive a > > > chain > > > ? > > > of events, he sees one single > > > ? > > > catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage upon > > > ? > > > > > > wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The an > > > ? ? > > > gel would like to stay, awaken > > > ? > > > the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing > > > ? > > > from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such violence that > the > > > angel > > > ? > > > can no longer close them. This storm irresistibly propels him into the > > > future > > > ? > > > to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows > > > skyward. > > > > > > This storm is what we call progress. (pp. 257-58) > > > > > > > > > > > > ?? > > > > > > > > > PS-- > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 3:15 PM, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Mike: > > > > > > > > My mother was a psychologist too--like you, trained as a > behaviourist, > > > but > > > > unlike you she got off into Piaget in the early sixties. Then she > moved > > > on > > > > to other things: she wrote a biography of Ada, Countess of Lovelace, > > > which > > > > was published by MIT Press and got her some notoriety, mostly because > > she > > > > showed that Byron's daughter, who everyone has assumed to be a kind > of > > > > feminist icon and the world's first computer programmer, didn't > > actually > > > > know any mathematics! She told me a lot about Piaget and Lawrence > > > Kohlberg > > > > (who she briefly studied with). But I was unable to interest her in > > > > Vygotsky or in cultural historical psychology: she saw it, perhaps > > > > correctly, as nothing more than an attempt to prolong what she > > considered > > > > the crazy Bolshevism of my youth. > > > > > > > > Herr first response to losing her higher mental functions (when we > > walked > > > > to the Tate Art Gallery near her home in London and she forgot her > way > > > > home) was simply horror. She went through a difficult period of > terrors > > > > (curiously, mostly concerned with money, of which she still has a > great > > > > deal more than she needs). Now she has stabilized (and she is > actually > > > much > > > > happier than I ever remember her). But she has completely forgotten > > that > > > > she ever had children, doesn't know her age or history, and also > lacks > > > > control over basic physiological functions. I think that the three > > > > strategies I gave you (pronouns, delight that masks astonishment, and > > > > avoiding explanations) really are rooted in the lower psychological > > > > functions and not in higher functions: pronominal meaning can be > simply > > > > indicative rather than nominative, delight is an example of her > > inability > > > > to divide affect from will, and avoiding "why" is an example of the > > loss > > > of > > > > semantic meaning and reliance on the visual purview alone. The last > > time > > > I > > > > took language samples from her, they were comparable to those of a > two > > > year > > > > old. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately is the word! And yet...perhaps this is something else > we > > > can > > > > all learn from Vygotsky. I don't just mean the way he faced death: he > > > died > > > > young, at the very height of his powers, and he had been practicing > > dying > > > > for the whole of his adult life, so the comparison with my mother is > > > > manifestly unfair. I mean first of all the way that Vygotsky really > > does > > > > use "pathogenesis", not as a new form of development but rather as a > > way > > > of > > > > examining the real prior processes of development (which, as a > > Spinozan, > > > he > > > > believed always involved the expansion of potential rather than its > > > > contraction). That's why Vygotsky ends almost every single chapter in > > the > > > > second part of HDHMF with a pathological example, why never gives up > > > > on "defektology", and I also think that is why he started studying > > > medicine > > > > even when he knew there was no hope for himself: it offers a way of > > > looking > > > > at the lower layers of development and how they subtend or fail to > > > subtend > > > > the higher ones. > > > > > > > > The second thing, though, was what I think he discovered through his > > > > pathogenetic analyses: that there is a very real difference between > > > > phylogenesis and sociogenesis, between sociogenesis and > > ontogenesis...and > > > > also, as I am now quite sure, between ontogenesis and microgenesis. > In > > > > phylogenesis: descent through modification--i.e. through the ruthless > > > > destruction of individuals and whole species. In sociogenesis, the > very > > > > opposite: public health, compulsory education, and the knowledge that > > it > > > > is precisely our ability to provide circuitous ways of helping the > very > > > > young and the very old that will ultimately make life better for > > > everybody, > > > > and not simply the very young and very old. The end of ontogenesis is > > not > > > > simply death--it is the decline that it inevitable after roughly the > > age > > > > that Vygotsky died. But with literacy, we are able to pass on our > very > > > best > > > > to the next generation. I don't know if Vygotsky really believed that > > > these > > > > last lectures of his would be translated and read by thousands of > > > teachers > > > > in some totally foreign land eight decades after his death--he > believed > > > > in internationalism, so I think it's at least possible that he did. > But > > > > whether he believed it or not, that is what is going to happen, and > > it's > > > > why I think that cultural-historical psychologists, unlike > Piagetians, > > > can > > > > face decline and death with a certain equanimity and acceptance. > > > > > > > > But it is also why I'm not really sure that Dorothy Kellogg Stein's > > > > biography of Ada Lovelace was such a terrible mistake, Mike. When I > > take > > > it > > > > off the shelf and read it, I can still hear her voice, feel her > > > razor-like > > > > intellect, and even remonstrate with her individualistic and > > biologizing > > > > psychology. When I go and actually visit her at Lord Wandsworth's > Home > > > for > > > > Aging Jewry in Clapham I cannot. > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > David - > > > > > > > > > > I think it is unfortunate to link workarounds with a loss of higher > > > > > psychological functions. Again, it seems like ontogeny > recapitulates > > > > > history. The end of ontogeny is death. Ditto history? > > > > > > > > > > By any account I can think of, your mother is using higher higher > > > > > psychological functions to work around the inability to retrieve > > > > vocabulary > > > > > at a conventional level of abstraction. I am of an age where the > same > > > > > problem can be noticed. Nice that I can, for the time being, > > understand > > > > > enough to be able to study development in decline in real life in > > > > addition > > > > > to experiencing it. Hmm, that means I have some higher higher > > functions > > > > to > > > > > draw upon! > > > > > > > > > > In our own work, the workarounds needed to solve the failure of a > > > gifted, > > > > > "promising" technology under high pressure to succeed created both > a > > > > > successful product and resulted in productive education for all > > > involved. > > > > > > > > > > To me, a great example of pathogenisis is the use of the highly > > > > developed, > > > > > highly admired, highly financed, digital technologies of > cyberspace. > > > > > Clearly an advance over atomic bombs- cleaner, faster, more > > efficient. > > > > > > > > > > Where I think there is something distinctly unusual in Zaza's > > > prototyping > > > > > example is that the prototyping itself, even if it > > > > > had been accomplishable easily with strong technological/resource > > > > backing, > > > > > is a work around for the inability to confront directly the > cultural > > > > > beliefs that make it shameful for a woman with HIV to bottle feed > her > > > > baby. > > > > > We rarely discuss the power of cultural norms in constraining > > cultural > > > > > change even when the current practices threaten reproduction of the > > > > social > > > > > group. It seems, perhaps, an intractable problem. The US appears > > unable > > > > to > > > > > give up on putting water in disposable plastic bottles. > Pathogenesis? > > > > > > > > > > I'll follow my habit of sorting things out by responding vis a vis > > > > > Franklin in Larry's note below. I will respond on a thread called > > > > > microgenesis/ontogenesis. > > > > > > > > > > Compensatorily yours. > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:15 PM, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Mike likes a discussion to be, as Bernstein put it, well framed > and > > > > well > > > > > > classified; or at least he likes the threads to be well > > disentangled > > > > and > > > > > > properly subject lined. But perhaps we shouldn't give up on the > > "The > > > > > > Prototyping Mind" too quickly! As you can see from Molly's > careful > > > > > perusal > > > > > > and forceful restatement of Zaza's major themes, there is still a > > lot > > > > in > > > > > > Zaza's prototyping bin to talk about. > > > > > > > > > > > > The one that interests me, that I think is relevant to the > > > > "microgenesis" > > > > > > thread, is what learning means when it means adapting to > > > > > anti-development. > > > > > > For example, there are undoubtedly work-arounds that people use > > when > > > > > their > > > > > > higher psychological functions start to shut down (I watched my > > > mother > > > > do > > > > > > quite a few of these, addressing everyone as "you" instead of > using > > > > > names, > > > > > > reacting to novel situations with a delight which effectively > hides > > > her > > > > > > astonishment, and above all refraining from trying to understand > > the > > > > > > reasons for present situations). > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, there are ontogenetic work-arounds that people use > when > > > > > > commodity production shuts down. But in both cases, we have a > kind > > of > > > > > > development which forgoes time's arrow; we have a notion of > > > development > > > > > > that works backwards and forwards (like the laws of physics as > > > opposed > > > > to > > > > > > the laws of thermodynamics). I won't say that suggests relativism > > > (that > > > > > > would be, I think, too moralistic an argument, and it is a rabbit > > > hole > > > > we > > > > > > have been down already anyway). But it suggests an atomism that I > > > > > disagree > > > > > > with (in addition to eschewing time, the laws of physics don't > > > combine > > > > > > matter and meaning the way that the laws of thermodynamics do!) > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike has offered Franklin as an example of a Zoped before (I > > remember > > > > > once > > > > > > thinking that he directed it to ME as a way of getting ME to > think > > a > > > > bit > > > > > > about listening to others on this list, but in fact he's used it > in > > > > print > > > > > > on at least one occasion). Whenever he offers it, he does the > exact > > > > > > opposite of what he usually does with xmca threads: instead of > > asking > > > > us > > > > > to > > > > > > disentangle threads, he invites us to combine them. Franklin is > > > > learning > > > > > > (to listen to others). But he is also developing, on at least > three > > > > > counts: > > > > > > by learning to listen to others, he is acquiring new forms of > > meaning > > > > > > potential; by learning to recognize himself when it is "played > > back" > > > to > > > > > > him, he is acquiring a new form of reflecting on experience; and > > > (this > > > > is > > > > > > the one I really want to talk about) he is learning that play is > > not > > > > > simply > > > > > > the manipulation of objects but also the manipulation of social > > roles > > > > > > according to abstract rules (such as reciprocity and mutuality). > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, you can see that I'm trying to disentangle things that are > not > > > > > really > > > > > > that distinct (reciprocity is really a form of serial mutuality, > > and > > > > both > > > > > > of them are simply abstract forms of listening to others). The > > > Vygotsky > > > > > > lectures I'm working with are a little similar: in his work on > the > > > > Crisis > > > > > > at Three (Franklin's Crisis, I suspect), he is trying to > > disentangle > > > > the > > > > > > "seven stars" of bad behaviour (folk concepts that nursemaids and > > > > mothers > > > > > > use--I notice there is even a Russian Wikipedia page!) from what > he > > > > > thinks > > > > > > is the key neoformation of Three, the separation of affect and > > will. > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, negativism is not just saying "no". It's saying "no" > > > when > > > > > the > > > > > > child really wants to say "yes", because although the child wants > > to > > > > say > > > > > > "yes", the others in the social milieu also want him to say > "yes", > > > and > > > > > the > > > > > > child is more interested in self-assertion than in > > > self-gratification. > > > > > > Obstinacy is not just tenacity. It's actually the negation of > > > > negativism: > > > > > > saying "yes" when the child really wants to "no", or maybe "who > > > > cares?", > > > > > > simply because the child has already said "yes" and once again > the > > > > child > > > > > is > > > > > > more interested in will than in affect. And so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > How is this connected with the next zone of development? Perhaps > > the > > > > next > > > > > > zone of development is preschool, and preschool depends on the > > > > separation > > > > > > of the semantic and the visio-graphic field of action in play. If > > so, > > > > > > Franklin's ability to interpret the teacher's imitation of his > own > > > > > actions > > > > > > is a "trailer" of that next zone of development and no mere act > of > > > > > > learning. Or, maybe this is happening in a preschool, and the > next > > > > zone > > > > > of > > > > > > development is actually the Crisis at Seven. If so, Franklin's > > > ability > > > > to > > > > > > recognize himself is a "trailer" of the next zone of development: > > > > acting > > > > > a > > > > > > role that is not really a role, but in fact a prototype self. > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's my problem, Molly. What do I do when the prototype > self > > > > comes > > > > > to > > > > > > me from the past and not the future? Can we really call this > > > > development? > > > > > > Isn't it really a form of pathogenesis? > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:29 AM, molly shea > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Zaza and Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My apologies for entering the conversation on Kukiya-kiya late, > > > > > however, > > > > > > > the article was so compelling I feel I should still enter. > First, > > > to > > > > > > Zaza, > > > > > > > thank you for writing such a forceful analysis of learning > > through > > > > > > > prototyping. I especially like the ways in which your > analytical > > > lens > > > > > > > included the political dimensions of problem solving and > invoking > > > > > > > expertise. There are two ideas within the article that I hope > to > > > use > > > > > and > > > > > > > extend in my work as well, and a question for Zaza, Mike, and > > > others > > > > at > > > > > > the > > > > > > > end of my second musing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first is your discussion of disinheritance as *an attention > > to > > > > > > > materials?a way of looking at materials that allows the > beholder > > to > > > > > > > recognize transience, mutability, intermediateness?that allows > > > > > > Zimbabweans > > > > > > > to employ novel and unexpected ways to act within and around > the > > > > > > > constraints of their material conditions.* By pointing out the > > > > separate > > > > > > > cognitive practice associated with seeing through > disinheritance, > > > the > > > > > > > analysis draws attention to the political dimension of > learning. > > > The > > > > > > > possible activities and therefore learning opportunities that > > arise > > > > > > through > > > > > > > this historical perception change and assumptions about > designing > > > > > > learning > > > > > > > environments then shifts with these methods of seeing and using > > > > > > materials. > > > > > > > It also draws another potential distinction between the Maker > > > > Movement > > > > > > and > > > > > > > Kukiya?kiya. The Makers Movement doesn?t necessarily claim a > > > > political > > > > > > > agenda, however, by claiming something a-political or claiming > an > > > > > agenda > > > > > > of > > > > > > > advancing technological skills in the name of progress, it has > a > > > > > > historical > > > > > > > and political situated set of values that may be in opposition > to > > > > those > > > > > > of > > > > > > > Kukiya?kiya that suffer the consequences of material > > disinheritance > > > > > > arising > > > > > > > in the context of economic crisis. Vossoughi, Hooper, and > Escud? > > > > (2016) > > > > > > do > > > > > > > a wonderful job of pointing out many of the neoliberal > > consequences > > > > of > > > > > a > > > > > > > maker movement that does not see the lineage of prototyping > > > expertise > > > > > > > coming from many low-income communities living in ?tight > > > > > circumstances?. > > > > > > > The power of the design of this prototyping project, for me, > > comes > > > > from > > > > > > > centering local expertise in the design of the learning > > > environment. > > > > > > > Although prototyping is at the center of both ?making? and > > > > > ?kukiya?kiya? > > > > > > > practices, it seems the political sense making between settings > > > > > couldn?t > > > > > > be > > > > > > > more different. Even within the Zaza paper, the participants > > > question > > > > > how > > > > > > > invention might or might not lead to liberation. I appreciate > > > Zaza's > > > > > > > attention to how participants questioned invention and business > > > > acumen > > > > > > as a > > > > > > > means to ?extricate Zimbabwe from its economic quandary?. A > > lesser > > > > > > > researcher may have ignored this comment as outside of the > design > > > > > process > > > > > > > and therefore the data set to be analyzed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The second idea, related to the political dimensions of > cognition > > > > that > > > > > > are > > > > > > > often overlooked, is your analysis of gender and expertise in > the > > > > > design > > > > > > > process. I am struck by how the performance of gender and > > > > > > design-expertise > > > > > > > came in the form of whispers and informal conversations about > > > > > hand-bags. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > would be great to have more analysis like this one where gender > > > > > networks > > > > > > > inform design. In fact, it seems gender (man/woman/trans/other) > > is > > > > > always > > > > > > > informing design, but perhaps performance of expertise that is > > > > cis-male > > > > > > is > > > > > > > sometimes confused with having expertise at all. You analysis > > > offers > > > > > more > > > > > > > nuance about other kinds of performance of expertise. I wonder > if > > > > > > > discussions about hand-bags creates the intimacy necessary to > > share > > > > > > > female-cis gendered understandings of design problems. I would > > love > > > > to > > > > > > hear > > > > > > > your thinking on this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, thank you for your work and for the insights that this > > > article > > > > > has > > > > > > > provided me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Molly Shea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:46 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?Since it appears that people have completed discussion of > > Zaza's > > > > > paper > > > > > > > > (and of course, anyone is free to add to the discussion at > any > > > > > time), I > > > > > > > > feel freer to engage the microgenesis/ontogenesis > relationship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know too little about L1/L2 discussions to contribute > there, > > > but > > > > as > > > > > > > life > > > > > > > > allows I will try to suggest that microgenesis can be shown, > in > > > at > > > > > > least > > > > > > > > some circumstances, to involve both learning and development. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I attach an example from the work of Vivian Paley. It > > > addresses > > > > (I > > > > > > > > believe) Vygotsky's idea that play creates a Zoped in which a > > > child > > > > > is > > > > > > "a > > > > > > > > head taller than herself." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the example is inappropriate to the discussion or my > > > > > > > interpretation > > > > > > > > of it is bonkers. To me it illustrates both LSV's claim about > > the > > > > > zoped > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > play and is a case of microgenesis with ontogenetic > > implications. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See what you think. its 4 pages long. > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg < > > > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only > word I > > > > might > > > > > > > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there > > may > > > > also > > > > > > be > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of > > > proximal > > > > > > > > evolution > > > > > > > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on > in > > > the > > > > > > > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and > a > > > zone > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far > > > longer > > > > > > than I > > > > > > > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a > > > very > > > > > good > > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for > > > > > > "development" > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > not for learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are > interested > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that > realizes > > > it, > > > > we > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an > > > > > > interpersonal > > > > > > > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in > learning > > > very > > > > > > often > > > > > > > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development > that > > > > have > > > > > > > > nothing > > > > > > > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally > > > > rooted. > > > > > > > > Thirdly, > > > > > > > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are > doing > > > > > before > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to > > > understand > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant > > to > > > > our > > > > > > > > teaching > > > > > > > > > needs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis > at > > > > > Three", > > > > > > > > part > > > > > > > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five > of > > > the > > > > > > > > Collected > > > > > > > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? > > > ???????, > > > > > > > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? > > > > > ??????-???? > > > > > > > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? > > ????? > > > > > > > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? > > > > ???????????????? > > > > > > > > ???????? > > > > > > > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? > > > ?????? > > > > > > > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? > ?????? > > > > > > > > ???????????, > > > > > > > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? > > > > > ??????????. ? > > > > > > > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? > ??? > > > > > > ?????????? > > > > > > > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > > > > > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, > > all > > > > the > > > > > > > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis > > may > > > > be > > > > > > > > grouped > > > > > > > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > > > > > > > Consequently, > > > > > > > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the > > very > > > > > least > > > > > > > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at > > this > > > > > > > appointed > > > > > > > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which > disappear > > > > > > > afterwards > > > > > > > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and > > > peripheral > > > > > > lines > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to > > evaluate > > > > the > > > > > > > > critical > > > > > > > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal > > > > development, > > > > > > > i.e. > > > > > > > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship > to > > > the > > > > > > > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > > > > > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of > > the > > > > > > child's > > > > > > > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > > > > > > > development, > > > > > > > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis > and > > > > > > learning. > > > > > > > > He > > > > > > > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out > how > > to > > > > > avoid > > > > > > > it: > > > > > > > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on > > > > Ganzheitpsychologie > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still > what > > > we > > > > > need > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of > > the > > > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for this David. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did > not > > > have > > > > > > > > > > significant learning components. So the evaluation part > of > > > the > > > > > > > > > > assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis > > but > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the > > learning > > > > > > > component > > > > > > > > > > for sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow > > > > students > > > > > to > > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > > > beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of > > > > > > development > > > > > > > > > > in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, > the > > > kind > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are > > very > > > > > narrow > > > > > > > > > > and the structure and shape of the study programme > prevents > > > me > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > doing large longitudinal studies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA > > literature > > > > > > presents > > > > > > > > > > many problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg < > > > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm > > > > talking > > > > > > > > about. > > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But > I > > > > think > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a > > > > distortion > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not > > > > ontogenesis. I > > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations > > > that > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > picked > > > > > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > > > > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of > > > > > > development". > > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > > > there are two reasons why this has not happened. > Firstly, > > > > there > > > > > > > > hasn't > > > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > > a clear demarcation between learning and development, > and > > > the > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > > > > that what the child can do today with assistance will > be > > > done > > > > > by > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > child > > > > > > > > > > > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four > > hours--is > > > > > just > > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > > > > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. > > > > > Secondly, > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the > next > > > > zone > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's > > pedological > > > > > > > lectures, > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > these haven't been translated yet). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. > > It's > > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's > > pedological > > > > > > > lectures: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > > > > > > > > lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4. > > pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English > > > > version, > > > > > > > 1998: > > > > > > > > > > > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on > > > > > replacing > > > > > > > > > "test" > > > > > > > > > > > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace > > > "diagnostic" > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings > > and > > > > > total > > > > > > > > > > nonsense. > > > > > > > > > > > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the > > ZPD > > > is > > > > > NOT > > > > > > > > > > > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality > > is > > > > > > > infinitely > > > > > > > > > > > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right > kind > > > of > > > > > > > > mediation, > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > become today's. This is something that DA has largely > > > adopted > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > > > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's > > > > method: > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but > > > > > function > > > > > > > MUST > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have > two > > > > > > children. > > > > > > > > One > > > > > > > > > > > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation > is > > > > simply > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > first one has the right mental structures to learn and > > the > > > > > second > > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > > The functional explanation is that the first has the > > right > > > > > > > functional > > > > > > > > > > > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, > > etc) > > > > > while > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority > of > > > > > learning > > > > > > > > > > > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think > that > > > > means > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention > is a > > > > whole > > > > > > lot > > > > > > > > > > easier > > > > > > > > > > > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present > > and > > > > the > > > > > > > > future > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > linked causally--but not the past and the present: > it's a > > > > weird > > > > > > > > > inversion > > > > > > > > > > > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but > > the > > > > > future > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > > > > > > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> David, > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been > able > > > to > > > > > > spot a > > > > > > > > > > >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related > > to > > > > > > > urbanistic > > > > > > > > > > >> and architectural city features) in such a way that > they > > > no > > > > > > longer > > > > > > > > > > >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not > > arrive > > > > to > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the > > perceptual > > > > > > > challenge > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >> oral utterances. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> The first group of students tend to mediate their > > > linguistic > > > > > > > > > > >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet > > written > > > > > words > > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > > >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the > > > > Japanese > > > > > > > > > > >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Best > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Arturo Escand?n > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg < > > > > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in > > > applied > > > > > > > > > > linguistics or > > > > > > > > > > >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" > > (phylogenetic, > > > > > > > > > sociogenetic, > > > > > > > > > > >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's > > > > wonderful > > > > > > > > article > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope > > that > > > it > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > help > > > > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > > > > > >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development > and > > > > > > > > microgenetic > > > > > > > > > > >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg > > > 2011). > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term > > "microgenesis" > > > > was > > > > > > > around > > > > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > > >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: > > it's > > > a > > > > > > > constant > > > > > > > > > > >> feature > > > > > > > > > > >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also > > strongly > > > > > > > associated > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > > > > >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the > > > term > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > > >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, > > > > Koffka, > > > > > > > Lewin, > > > > > > > > > > >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he > doesn't > > > seem > > > > > to > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> term > > > > > > > > > > >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in > > > Nazi > > > > > > > > psychology > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, > > > scathingly, > > > > > > > > denounces > > > > > > > > > > >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism > in > > > > > > > > > > Psychoneurology". I > > > > > > > > > > >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it > > conflates > > > > > > > external > > > > > > > > > > >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and > > > "ontogenetic", > > > > > > calls > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > >> "micro" > > > > > > > > > > >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as > > opposed > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > biological, > > > > > > > > > > >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's > > article. > > > > At > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > particular > > > > > > > > > > >> > point, the participants become uninterested in > > > perceptual > > > > > high > > > > > > > > > > fidelity > > > > > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > > > > >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo > think > > if > > > > she > > > > > > > sees > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > >> her > > > > > > > > > > >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for > nursing? > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to > > > perceptual > > > > > > > > meaning. > > > > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > > >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully > > > reciprocal: > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > specific > > > > > > > > > > >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. > > > > > > Microgenesis > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > > >> you > > > > > > > > > > >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get > when > > > you > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > reading > > > > > > > > > > >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science > > with > > > > an > > > > > > > object > > > > > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > an > > > > object > > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 12:31:03 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 20:31:03 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4B094@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <20161019221516.5955729.54084.16195@ucdenver.edu> <5808ec5f.10c0620a.63484.606e@mx.google.com> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C4B094@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Sorry for the short delay between posts. Dog walking duties, which frequently takes me through a community of people living and working on boats in an impressive hands-on do-it-yourself habit and story time fun -- make your own animal cacophony -- intervened. Thanks to Colin's judicious choice of article, we have an impressive confluence of ideas at play (and in action). Here are just a few pointers. Linking to psychology of liberation, the important element that has been widely overlooked (or ignored) of AT is what I refer to as active orientation. I wrote a draft on this here: https://www.academia.edu/24660557/Active_Orientation With respect to the reification of of the objects (of the 'what'), the essential point is that is this is not what its about -- it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it. In my experience the people that flee "the object" are those that have never come to terms with it. That is, to come to terms with the creation of codifications mediated, diffused and consumed via these objects (check out Boisot on the diffusion of transactions / consumption of information). To create is to construe codifications on one's own terms. The second important point about creating objects and their codifications is that they work. You can build up a theory of what actually works -- unmediated by politics! -- which is to come to terms with fundamentals of what a system is. These are cognitive fundamentals related to Piagetian conservation tasks that many people never seem to come to grips with. One of the seemingly 'throw-away' comments in Morozov's New Yorker article pertains to a statement advocating playing Tetris. I can see how this might be conceived of as being superficial and frivolous. If I recall correctly, the author of Tetris (Alexey Pajitnov) was a pupil at a school run according to principles of developmental education (Davydov). So, here is a little puzzle: how can playing a puzzle game be an act of liberty? The Academia website which David had a mild nuisance with represents a wonderful example for us now. The website (and service) is being built by twenty young guys in California -- so yes, it might not behave quite as you would expect yet. Academia?s strategy is "to fix the broken 100-year old monopolistic academic publishing system by becoming the largest academic publisher in the world". How about that? Twenty people hacking a broken system. The significant papers I put there were ones that didn't fit with certain journals. I didn't quite know why I was putting them there in the first place, but now I'm starting to see the point. Sure, they're not reviewed. But that's what good readership is for - why wait to be spoon fed and have your attention redirected in the process. Caveat Emptor, make it yourself instead. Best, Huw On 21 October 2016 at 13:50, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Colin, > > Thanks for the article. This article suggests that the Maker movement is > indeed very litertarian in nature. Kevin Kelley and Chris Anderson are > very libertarian in their thinking and are probably behind the role of this > thinking among computer enthusiasts (through Wired). I'm not sure I agree > with some of Morozov's other ideas though. Stuart Brand was peripheral to > the personal computer movement (he was actually mostly out of it from > 1972-77 when much of it was going on). He did organize the first Hacker > conference, but that was in response to Steven Levy's book about the > Homebrew Computer Club and the emergence of gaming on the West Coast where > he called many of the people involved hackers). But the characters > involved in the beginnings of the Maker movement convince that the > Vossoughi, Escude and Hooper's article was really on the mark. > > Michael > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Colin Dixon > Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 2:20 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > Linked here is a read of the maker movement and related moments in history. > http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/01/13/making-it-2. It came to mind > because it connects some of the pieces that Michael Glassman and others > have put on the table. > > I work with some "maker" funded education efforts, and think that nearly > all of the critiques described here stick. The characterizations of > resources, values and politics don't ring true everywhere, but enough > places to worry. > > However, to Shirin's concern, I'll share a reflection. When working today > with a 'maker club' in a high school (albeit one with a somewhat > alternative structure, if not a lot of resources), one thing that struck me > was the degree to which the students saw in their 'maker club' an > opportunity to make types of relationships they didn't feel they could > establish in other parts of the school. Many of them described it, and > aspired for it, to be a place where they could relate to peers - across > grades, interests, and cliques - as well as teachers, in ways that felt > different and important. This was primary goal - that seemed to be more > important than the objects they were interested in creating. At least > that's what they told an educator/researcher. I have also seen the > importance of maker spaces in schools as places that allow young people to > keep working in school on things they do or are interested in outside of > school - which is, i think, mostly about subject-subject, even when > disguised as subject-object. > > I don't know that these phenomena have to do with the activity of 'making' > or a connection to 'maker movement', (and maybe they happen despite the > maker movement, given it's rhetorical focus). It may just be about sneaking > open-ended work and less hierarchical structures into school, under the > hood of a laser cutter. Therefore, the claim isn't that 'making' is > anything new, but that it may be able, currently, to create a place to > retain some of the old that's being squeezed out elsewhere (whether that's > creative species being, or just just friendship). It's no excuse to stop > advocating for and creating this space in other parts of schools, of course. > > As Vossoughi, Escude and Hooper's article shows, what constitutes 'making' > is still being contested. In schools (or afterschool programs - many of > which, with STEM at the bow, are looking more and more schoolish), I think > there are people working to do with prototyping what Zaza's describes above > as the power of prototyping: create spaces where the learners "realize > there are alternative subject positions" and start to see a role for > themselves in producing the environments (like schools) in which they are > positioned as (coerced) consumers. That's an optimistic take. Producing > those environments through the manufacture of objects is perhaps not the > appropriate place to start, given the abundance and history of objects in > US society. But political structures social relations can feel impenetrable > when looked at head on - as Zaza's great article makes clear. > > usually just listening, > - Colin > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Shirin Vossoughi < > shirinvossoughi@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Thank you Phillip and all > > > > I was very happy to come across the Chachra as I think she draws > > attention to these other forms of making (mending, repair, caring) > > that may be undervalued by the "maker movement", but also that making > > itself as an umbrella term that other forms of human activity are now > > somehow accountable to is too narrow. Here is her piece for those who > > might be > > interested: > > http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/why-i- > > am-not-a-maker/384767/ > > > > One of the things that continues to worry me is the focus on > > subject-object relations over and above subject-subject relations > > within making. Or that subject-subject relations become valued in so > > far as they lead to the generation of more innovative products, but > > not as ends in themselves (maybe this is more along the lines of > > conviviality?). This relates in my mind to the ways teaching is often > > positioned as inherently didactic and problematic rather than as a > > potentially powerful, beautiful (and > > bi-directional) relation. > > > > Zaza I am very much looking forward to reading your paper. Thank you > > for sharing it here. > > > > Shirin > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 1:16 PM, White, Phillip < > > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> > > wrote: > > > > > to further support for the case that more is being consumed than > > > information, and conviviality, i quote Jean Lave, from Teaching as > > Learning > > > - "I began to inquire into just what was being learned by the > > apprentices, > > > and found that the apprentices were learning many complex "lessons" > > > at once. To name a few: they were learning relations among the major > > > social identities and divisions in Liberian society which they were > > > in the business of dressing. They were learning to make a life, to > > > make a > > living, > > > to make clothes, to grow old enough, and mature enough to become > > > master tailors, and to see the truth of the respect due to a master > > > of their trade. It seems trivially true that they were never doing > > > only one of > > these > > > things at a time." > > > > > > > > > Teaching, as Learning. in Practice > > > > > > Jean Lave > > > > > > > > > phillip > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 10:10:01 AM > > > To: Zaza Kabayadondo; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > > > Phillip, Michael, Mike > > > To say: Consumed can be an example of full engagement and what is > > > being consumed is more than information, what is also being consumed > > > is (shared > > > feelings) to my ears can be related to Michael?s reminder and return > > > to *tools of conviviality* and also to Franklin who with the > > > guidance of Vivian is learning (and developing) democratic spirit. > > > > > > On page 212 of the article by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escude is also > > > explored when they reference Chachra (2015) who juxtaposes the KINDS > > > of human activity that *tend to be* (intend, intentional, > > > intentional/ity as multiple lines) VALUED by the maker movement with > > > the everyday practices that have been the practices of women. > > > > > > These historically practiced ways of making such as: > > > Mending, repairing, teaching, caregoving. > > > > > > The case the article presents is that the making movement may be > > devaluing > > > and delegitimizing these tools of conviviality. Self-identifying > > > with > > the > > > maker movement may develop through ones *gestures* (meaning making) > > > a gendered way of moving that exemplifies possible gendered forms of > > > engineering design and educational *products* and *productivity* > > > (notice the ity that to my ears calls forth *inner* meaning) > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > > > From: Zaza Kabayadondo > > > Sent: October 19, 2016 7:32 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > > > Thank you for sharing Vossoughi, Harper and Escud?'s paper on the > > > appropriation of "making" in schools. I'm adding this to my syllabus > > > for next semester! > > > > > > I agree with Mike, Peg and Molly's suggestion that there seems to be > > > a natural affinity between the AT in CHAT and prototyping. > > > > > > On the topic of production and consumption: the potency in > > > prototyping > > lies > > > in the contexts for prototyping where learners/prototypers realize > > > there are alternative subject positions for them to occupy. Through > > > prototyping they start to shift from seeing their relationship to > > > the material world > > as > > > one of consumption to seeing the role they can play as producers. > > > Often this role is subversive, and therein lies the difference > > > between kukiya-kiya (and the glossary of similar terms, jailbreaking > > > etc) and > > maker > > > movement. So I guess, what I'm concerned with here is the difference > > > in subject positions associated with consumption and production. > > > > > > Kukiya-kiya is a situated, emergent, form of activity that responds > > > to > > and > > > evolves with political context of subjects who are excluded or > > disinherited > > > (kukiya-kiya) while Maker movement (making as a form of club > > > activity celebrated for its liberatory potential) at least in its > > > present form, mostly entails activity that is sanitized from all > > > political inflection > > and > > > with little proffered in the form of recourse for justice, equity, > > access, > > > ownership of the material. If both are meant to equip learners with > > > a way of thinking about materials as a form of access to things, > > > processes, systems they do not have access to, kukiya-kiya does so > > > without making to much of itself while making (of the maker > > > movement) is all pomp and > > little > > > sense of "how is this useful to me in my situation [of disinheritance]" > > for > > > individual learners. > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:15 PM, White, Phillip < > > > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > My off the top of my head, Michael, is that in part information is > > being > > > > consumed - as well as shared feelings of success, or frustration, > > > > or > > good > > > > cheer. > > > > > > > > Perhaps, even in a Batesonian-way. Imminent mind is being both > > > > produced and consumed. > > > > > > > > And of course, to consume can also be an example of full > > > > engagement (consumed with interest) and the root is "to take up". > > > > > > > > Some thoughts. > > > > > > > > Phillip > > > > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > > > > Original Message > > > > From: mike cole > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:45 PM > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Reply To: eXtended Mind, > > > > Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prototyping > > > > > > > > > > > > Hell, Peg -- I cannot get my tomatoes to grow in the odd weather > > > > we > > have > > > > had this summer, let alone get them to market. Pretty much can be > > > > said > > > for > > > > my scholarly efforts as well! > > > > > > > > I have been mulling over why prototyping and CHAT appear to have a > > > > kind > > > of > > > > natural affinity. I am speculating at the moment that both are > > > > focused > > on > > > > production, and the AT part of CHAT is very clearly focused on > > > production. > > > > Just think of the activities of those who attend, say, ISCAR. > > > > > > > > But production is intimately (dare I say dialectically?) related > > > > to consumption. Where is the good CHAT scholarship on the Foodie > movement? > > > > What is being consumed in an activity-centered classroom or a > > > developmental > > > > work research change lab? Seems worth inquiring about. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks to Philip White for pointing me to the alternative (and > > > preferred) > > > > > spelling "jury-rigged". In looking that up, I also found > > "jerry-built" > > > as > > > > > another term. > > > > > (My dad was from Indiana and he always pronounced it > "jerry-rigged"). > > > > > > > > > > These all differ from the term "hack" which, for me, > > > > > simultaneously > > has > > > > > connotations of elitism and cultural critique but I'm not sure I > > could > > > > say > > > > > why (maybe because I've heard it frequently used with Ikea - > > > > > Ikea > > > > hacking). > > > > > > > > > > "Jailbreaking" is an interesting one too - as in "jailbreaking > > > > > your iPhone." That is where you take an existing technology and > > > > > rebuild it > > > for > > > > > some design other than what it was intended. (I had a friend who > > > > > was building an online educational credentialing website that > > > > > used the > > > phrase > > > > > "jailbreaking the college degree" - some real trouble there, but > > > > > I > > > > support > > > > > the idea in principle). > > > > > > > > > > Really appreciate Zaza's paper as well as Shirin et al's paper... > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Oops, I sent this directly to Zaza and not to the listserve > > > > > > and it > > > > seems > > > > > > relevant to the Vossoughi et al paper that Mike just posted. > > > > > > It is > > in > > > > > > response to Zaza's list of kukiya-kiya equivalents in other > > > languages: > > > > > > > > > > > > A personal favorite in English is "jerry-rig". Although I > > > > > > should > > add > > > > that > > > > > > this has slightly more of a sense of hasty and perhaps a > > > > > > little bit > > > > > clumsy > > > > > > assembly - suggested to have originated in WWII as somewhat > > derisive > > > > way > > > > > to > > > > > > refer to equipment slapped together by the Germans. Somewhat > > > different > > > > > from > > > > > > other contexts where the sense of necessity is emphasized and > > > > > > haste > > > and > > > > > > clumsiness are less emphasized - if at all. Maybe has > > > > > > something to > > do > > > > > with > > > > > > the tendency in the U.S. to (be able to) rely on "expert" > > manufacture > > > > in > > > > > > the U.S. > > > > > > > > > > > > And, I wonder if this might have something to do with > > > > > > different cultural-ideological contexts of the maker movement vs. > > kukiya-kiya. > > > > > > Whereas kukiya-kiya is an act born of necessity, the maker > > > > > > movement > > > has > > > > > > more of a leisure-class bougie feel to it - an attempt to > > > > > > recover > > > one's > > > > > > creative species being - if you'll allow the drive-by Marx > > reference > > > > (and > > > > > > Mike's earlier example seems some mix of the two - a > > > > > > kukiya-kiya > > > > attempt > > > > > to > > > > > > make ("Engineering") makers out of these kids (something that > > > > > > they certainly already are in many non strictly "Engineering" > ways)). > > > > > > > > > > > > Zaza, I wonder if this kind of distinction between innovation > > > > > > of > > > > > necessity > > > > > > and innovation for pleasure makes any sense for what you see > > > > > > there > > on > > > > the > > > > > > ground in the kukiya-kiya case as compared to the maker case? > > > > > > Or if > > > > this > > > > > > distinction is perhaps a bit overdetermined and are there > > > > > > actually > > > both > > > > > > things happening in both cases? (e.g., is there a sense of joy > > > > > > in creativity and making in the kukiya-kiya case?) > > > > > > > > > > > > Enjoying your lovely paper as well as the conversation around it! > > > > > > > > > > > > Very best, > > > > > > greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, mike cole > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> For those interested in pursuing the implications of Zaza's > > > > > >> work > > on > > > > > Kukiya > > > > > >> kiya and the maker movement fashionable in affluent > > > > > >> societies, I > > > > > suggest a > > > > > >> new thread with the title, prototyping. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Attached is the paper by Vossoughi, Hooper, and Escud? > > > > > >> suggested > > by > > > > > Molly. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> mike > > > > > >> > > > > > >> -- > > > > > >> > > > > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science > > > > > >> with > > an > > > > > >> object > > > > > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > > > > an > > > object > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 14:11:06 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 08:11:06 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike: I think the flaws in methodology are exactly what Arturo is talking about. In foreign language teaching, the only real acknowledgement of the nonlinear nature of language development is in the mysterious "U-shaped curve" that seems to accompany the learning of grammar but not vocabulary. But the general response to this been to switch the focus in teaching to...vocabulary (e.g. Michael Lewis's "Lexical Approach", Nattinger and DeCarrico's work on formulaic phrases, Keyword method studies, etc.). Part of the problem is that the vast majority of published studies are done by professors on their undergraduates. A.N. Leontiev's denial of crises is to be found in his book "Problems of Development of Mind" (and also in "The Neo-Vygotskyan Approach to Child Development" by Yurie Karpov, excellently reviewed for MCA by Bert Oers). A.A. Leontiev wrote, as far as I can figure out, one book on foreign language teaching. " Psychology and the Language Learning Process", OUP. There is very little on age specific teaching at all: he seems to think that movies are great way of teaching foreign languages (I think all foreign language teachers go through a "movie" phase when they discover how difficult it really is to use and teach a language at the same time). But it's clear that a lot of his students are adults and not children. Not one of the half dozen papers that I submitted on ZPDs and crises of language development over the last year has been accepted for publication. I had exactly the same problem about fifteen years ago when I first started writing about group ZPDs--as soon as you raise the idea that there might be a ZPD for a whole class of children, the editor tells you to go and read Vygotsky. Now every time you say that real language development entails crises, editors ask indignantly where Vygotsky could have said THAT. I think the only mention of the crisis in language learning (and not foreign language learning) I've managed to get in print was the Commentary on Roth's piece that just came out in MCA (Roth calls everything a crisis, even when water turns into ice). With the sole exception of MCA (I just got another reject, but it was a real, thoughtful and very useful one), I think Huw is right--the system's broken. We need new ways of getting ideas around or we're really at the end of our own intellectual development. Who will reject the rejecters? Where will THEIR crises come from? David Kellogg Macquarie University On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 11:40 AM, mike cole wrote: > David & Arturo. You lost me you got to AA Leontiev, > David. Which of his writings on the organization of language learning > activity can I find that he denied crises in development. In principle, > such ideas should show up in flaws in his methodology. How does that work? > > I have read more than I have forgotten, but I would like to see how this > issue influences the pedagogy. > > Maybe you would be interested in helping us identify texts, Arturo. > > Note, in our own published work on the acquisition of reading we adopt a > developmental model of the process. To tell the truth, the whole process > felt like a crisis for us and the kids, but qualitative change, and new > modes of diagnosis, emerged. Both microgenetically (in a day's > interactions) and in the ontogeny of the child as the new form of behavior > spread and solidified. > > I have access to articles in Soviet Psychology/Journal of Russian > Psychology if the requisite materials are not already in your hands. > > Seems like a place where questions of theory and questions of practice come > together. David has been teaching L2 for a long time. Others, like Phillip, > are teachers in schools where students are highly varied in their > acquisition of English. > > A lot of others on xmca could also describe (or deny the presence of ) > crises that arise when there is a qualitative shift in L1-->L2 students. I > seemed to go through distinct stages, qualitative shifts, in the > acquisition of spoken and written Russian. I acquired the ability to speak > more quickly than to write. Reading was the refuge where I had to figure > out what people had been saying in the seminar from written texts. I do not > remember any moment of crisis (except that of a dumb, dangerous, foreigner, > newby) when I became qualitatively different. My best evidence that it was > a qualitative shift is that my wife, who went through all these events with > me, does not like my personality when I spoke Russian to this day. :~) > > It would be totally neat to find convergence around AA Leontiev here that > could generate a classic article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity.* > > mike > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 2:39 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Arturo: > > > > Yes, exactly! As soon as we ripped applied linguistics out of > linguistics, > > we started down a path of social-behaviourism. The result is, as you say, > > that L2 teaching has become behavioristic and na?ve in the extreme. > > > > Although, as you'll see from the other posting I wrote today, I think > it's > > important to stress how different learning is from development, I also > > think that one thing that all forms of genetic change have (phylo-, > socio-, > > onto- and micro-) is the crisis: crises are simply inherent in the > process > > of development itself, because at some point the process of development > > turns back on itself and the means of development itself develops. That's > > why Vygotsky speaks of "cycles of development". > > > > The problem with both Leontievs (A.A. and A.L.) is that they were > committed > > to demonstrating that development could take place without crises. I > think > > this was a political commitment, linked to Stalin's declaration of the > end > > of history. It is always a mistake to declare that history is at an end: > > that is one of the main differences between sociogenesis and ontogenesis. > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Dear David, > > > > > > I am laughing load about your exchange with Mike. > > > > > > Of course I do not discard microgenetic processes at all. Perhaps my > > > "unfortunately" comes from the fact that L2 teaching continuous to be > > > so behaviorist and naive. SLA advocates try to go round the notion of > > > input-output unsuccessfully. These conditions influence my research as > > > any social or production condition does. It is as if one could not > > > abstract of the institutional object set for "learning". > > > > > > What I have done is base my approach on A.A. Leontiev notions of > > > speech activity vis a vis communication activity to determine at least > > > four stages that a learner with no knowledge of a L2 must go through > > > to master it. Those I renamed substructural, structural, functional > > > and rhetorical stages. They all differ in the object of the activity. > > > But none of these stages is reached by one single learning activity. > > > So no microgenetic process can "trigger" mastery. On the contrary, > > > learners need to go through many learning tasks until they develop > > > comprehensive conceptual models for each stage. The developments of > > > those models run against their very understanding of their own L1. It > > > is hard to grasp the actual genesis of that development for the stages > > > cannot be clearly separated one another and because instructions is > > > distributed. You see, learners learn grammar with L1 speakers and > > > conversation with L2 speakers in more or less chaotic and asystematic > > > learning settings. > > > > > > The question is how one can deal with zones which do not have an age > > > crisis that help distinguishing one from the next. Risking deforming > > > the notion of zoped,I still prefer to have some kind of developmental > > > targets and stages rather than basing instruction on an endless chain > > > of learning tasks just to fill teaching time. > > > > > > Thanks for providing those Russian excerpts. > > > > > > All the best. > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > On 18 October 2016 at 09:33, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also > be > > a > > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > > evolution > > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer > than I > > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good > > > idea > > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for > "development" > > > and > > > > not for learning. > > > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the > > what > > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we > are > > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an > interpersonal > > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very > often > > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > > > nothing > > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > > > Thirdly, > > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before > we > > > go > > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > > > teaching > > > > needs. > > > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", > > > part > > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > > Collected > > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > > > ???????? > > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > > ???????????, > > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? > ?????????? > > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > > > grouped > > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > > Consequently, > > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > > appointed > > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > > afterwards > > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral > lines > > > of > > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > > > critical > > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, > > i.e. > > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the > child's > > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > > development, > > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and > learning. > > > He > > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid > > it: > > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie > > that > > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need > > to > > > do > > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > . > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Thank you for this David. > > > >> > > > >> I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > >> > > > >> Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > > >> significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > > >> assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > > >> ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > component > > > >> for sure. > > > >> > > > >> My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to > go > > > >> beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of > development > > > >> in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > > >> interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > > > >> and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > > > >> doing large longitudinal studies. > > > >> > > > >> I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature > presents > > > >> many problems. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Arturo > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > >> > Arturo: > > > >> > > > > >> > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > > about. > > > >> > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think > there > > > are > > > >> > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of > > the > > > >> ZPD. > > > >> > > > > >> > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > > think > > > the > > > >> > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > > > picked > > > >> up > > > >> > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of > development". > > > But > > > >> > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > > hasn't > > > >> been > > > >> > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > > > >> > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by > the > > > >> child > > > >> > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just > too > > > >> > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > > > there > > > >> > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > > >> > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > > lectures, > > > but > > > >> > these haven't been translated yet). > > > >> > > > > >> > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > > interesting > > > >> to > > > >> > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > lectures: > > > >> > > > > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > >> lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > >> > > > > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > >> > > > > >> > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > > 1998: > > > >> > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > > > "test" > > > >> > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > > > >> > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > > >> nonsense. > > > >> > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > > >> > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > > infinitely > > > >> > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > > mediation, > > > >> can > > > >> > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from > > its > > > >> > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > >> > > > > >> > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > > > >> > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function > > MUST > > > be > > > >> > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. > > One > > > >> > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply > that > > > the > > > >> > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second > > does > > > >> not. > > > >> > The functional explanation is that the first has the right > > functional > > > >> > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while > > the > > > >> other > > > >> > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > > >> > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means > that > > > they > > > >> > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole > lot > > > >> easier > > > >> > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > > future > > > >> are > > > >> > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > > inversion > > > >> > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future > is > > > >> > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > >> > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > >> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >> David, > > > >> >> > > > >> >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot > a > > > >> >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > > urbanistic > > > >> >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no > longer > > > >> >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to > that > > > >> >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > challenge > > > of > > > >> >> oral utterances. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > > >> >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words > > when > > > >> >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > > >> >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Best > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Arturo Escand?n > > > >> >> > > > >> >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > >> >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > > >> linguistics or > > > >> >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > > sociogenetic, > > > >> >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > > > article > > > >> on > > > >> >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it > would > > > help > > > >> us > > > >> >> to > > > >> >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > microgenetic > > > >> >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > > around > > > >> when > > > >> >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > > constant > > > >> >> feature > > > >> >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > > associated > > > >> with > > > >> >> the > > > >> >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > > > doesn't > > > >> use > > > >> >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > > Lewin, > > > >> >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to > use > > > the > > > >> >> term > > > >> >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > > psychology > > > >> and > > > >> >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > > denounces > > > >> >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > >> Psychoneurology". I > > > >> >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > external > > > >> >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls > > his > > > >> >> "micro" > > > >> >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > > >> biological, > > > >> >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > > >> particular > > > >> >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > > >> fidelity > > > >> >> and > > > >> >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she > sees > > > that > > > >> >> her > > > >> >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > > meaning. > > > >> But > > > >> >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > > > specific > > > >> >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis > > is > > > >> what > > > >> >> you > > > >> >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > > > reading > > > >> >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > David Kellogg > > > >> >> > Macquarie University > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 16:01:02 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 17:01:02 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <981E8445-3F39-4DBE-A501-0831D1DA4CCA@gmail.com> David and all, Back in the day (the 80s) there were articles on L2 learning on two themes that you might find relevant to the subject line: 1) L2 learning as culture shock. More than one author on this. Culture shock = Crisis maybe. 2) The optimal distance model of L2 learning. H.D. Brown was known for his articles on this. The model, as I recall, explained ?foreign accents? not as the inability to attain native pronunciation but as a intra- and inter-subjective need to maintain identity that is closely associated with L1. May be of interest Henry > On Oct 21, 2016, at 3:11 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Mike: I think the flaws in methodology are exactly what Arturo is talking > about. In foreign language teaching, the only real acknowledgement of the > nonlinear nature of language development is in the mysterious "U-shaped > curve" that seems to accompany the learning of grammar but not vocabulary. > But the general response to this been to switch the focus in teaching > to...vocabulary (e.g. Michael Lewis's "Lexical Approach", Nattinger and > DeCarrico's work on formulaic phrases, Keyword method studies, etc.). Part > of the problem is that the vast majority of published studies are done by > professors on their undergraduates. > > A.N. Leontiev's denial of crises is to be found in his book "Problems of > Development of Mind" (and also in "The Neo-Vygotskyan Approach to Child > Development" by Yurie Karpov, excellently reviewed for MCA by Bert Oers). > A.A. Leontiev wrote, as far as I can figure out, one book on foreign > language teaching. " Psychology and the Language Learning Process", OUP. > There is very little on age specific teaching at all: he seems to think > that movies are great way of teaching foreign languages (I think all > foreign language teachers go through a "movie" phase when they discover how > difficult it really is to use and teach a language at the same time). But > it's clear that a lot of his students are adults and not children. > > Not one of the half dozen papers that I submitted on ZPDs and crises of > language development over the last year has been accepted for publication. > I had exactly the same problem about fifteen years ago when I first started > writing about group ZPDs--as soon as you raise the idea that there might be > a ZPD for a whole class of children, the editor tells you to go and read > Vygotsky. Now every time you say that real language development entails > crises, editors ask indignantly where Vygotsky could have said THAT. I > think the only mention of the crisis in language learning (and not foreign > language learning) I've managed to get in print was the Commentary on > Roth's piece that just came out in MCA (Roth calls everything a crisis, > even when water turns into ice). > > With the sole exception of MCA (I just got another reject, but it was a > real, thoughtful and very useful one), I think Huw is right--the system's > broken. We need new ways of getting ideas around or we're really at the end > of our own intellectual development. Who will reject the rejecters? Where > will THEIR crises come from? > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 11:40 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> David & Arturo. You lost me you got to AA Leontiev, >> David. Which of his writings on the organization of language learning >> activity can I find that he denied crises in development. In principle, >> such ideas should show up in flaws in his methodology. How does that work? >> >> I have read more than I have forgotten, but I would like to see how this >> issue influences the pedagogy. >> >> Maybe you would be interested in helping us identify texts, Arturo. >> >> Note, in our own published work on the acquisition of reading we adopt a >> developmental model of the process. To tell the truth, the whole process >> felt like a crisis for us and the kids, but qualitative change, and new >> modes of diagnosis, emerged. Both microgenetically (in a day's >> interactions) and in the ontogeny of the child as the new form of behavior >> spread and solidified. >> >> I have access to articles in Soviet Psychology/Journal of Russian >> Psychology if the requisite materials are not already in your hands. >> >> Seems like a place where questions of theory and questions of practice come >> together. David has been teaching L2 for a long time. Others, like Phillip, >> are teachers in schools where students are highly varied in their >> acquisition of English. >> >> A lot of others on xmca could also describe (or deny the presence of ) >> crises that arise when there is a qualitative shift in L1-->L2 students. I >> seemed to go through distinct stages, qualitative shifts, in the >> acquisition of spoken and written Russian. I acquired the ability to speak >> more quickly than to write. Reading was the refuge where I had to figure >> out what people had been saying in the seminar from written texts. I do not >> remember any moment of crisis (except that of a dumb, dangerous, foreigner, >> newby) when I became qualitatively different. My best evidence that it was >> a qualitative shift is that my wife, who went through all these events with >> me, does not like my personality when I spoke Russian to this day. :~) >> >> It would be totally neat to find convergence around AA Leontiev here that >> could generate a classic article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity.* >> >> mike >> >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 2:39 PM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >>> Arturo: >>> >>> Yes, exactly! As soon as we ripped applied linguistics out of >> linguistics, >>> we started down a path of social-behaviourism. The result is, as you say, >>> that L2 teaching has become behavioristic and na?ve in the extreme. >>> >>> Although, as you'll see from the other posting I wrote today, I think >> it's >>> important to stress how different learning is from development, I also >>> think that one thing that all forms of genetic change have (phylo-, >> socio-, >>> onto- and micro-) is the crisis: crises are simply inherent in the >> process >>> of development itself, because at some point the process of development >>> turns back on itself and the means of development itself develops. That's >>> why Vygotsky speaks of "cycles of development". >>> >>> The problem with both Leontievs (A.A. and A.L.) is that they were >> committed >>> to demonstrating that development could take place without crises. I >> think >>> this was a political commitment, linked to Stalin's declaration of the >> end >>> of history. It is always a mistake to declare that history is at an end: >>> that is one of the main differences between sociogenesis and ontogenesis. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Macquarie University >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Arturo Escandon < >>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear David, >>>> >>>> I am laughing load about your exchange with Mike. >>>> >>>> Of course I do not discard microgenetic processes at all. Perhaps my >>>> "unfortunately" comes from the fact that L2 teaching continuous to be >>>> so behaviorist and naive. SLA advocates try to go round the notion of >>>> input-output unsuccessfully. These conditions influence my research as >>>> any social or production condition does. It is as if one could not >>>> abstract of the institutional object set for "learning". >>>> >>>> What I have done is base my approach on A.A. Leontiev notions of >>>> speech activity vis a vis communication activity to determine at least >>>> four stages that a learner with no knowledge of a L2 must go through >>>> to master it. Those I renamed substructural, structural, functional >>>> and rhetorical stages. They all differ in the object of the activity. >>>> But none of these stages is reached by one single learning activity. >>>> So no microgenetic process can "trigger" mastery. On the contrary, >>>> learners need to go through many learning tasks until they develop >>>> comprehensive conceptual models for each stage. The developments of >>>> those models run against their very understanding of their own L1. It >>>> is hard to grasp the actual genesis of that development for the stages >>>> cannot be clearly separated one another and because instructions is >>>> distributed. You see, learners learn grammar with L1 speakers and >>>> conversation with L2 speakers in more or less chaotic and asystematic >>>> learning settings. >>>> >>>> The question is how one can deal with zones which do not have an age >>>> crisis that help distinguishing one from the next. Risking deforming >>>> the notion of zoped,I still prefer to have some kind of developmental >>>> targets and stages rather than basing instruction on an endless chain >>>> of learning tasks just to fill teaching time. >>>> >>>> Thanks for providing those Russian excerpts. >>>> >>>> All the best. >>>> >>>> >>>> Arturo >>>> >>>> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 09:33, David Kellogg >> wrote: >>>>> Arturo: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might >>>>> possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also >> be >>> a >>>>> "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal >>>> evolution >>>>> (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the >>>>> Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of >>>>> proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer >> than I >>>>> ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good >>>> idea >>>>> to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for >> "development" >>>> and >>>>> not for learning. >>>>> >>>>> Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the >>> what >>>>> word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we >> are >>>>> necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an >> interpersonal >>>>> phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very >> often >>>>> ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have >>>> nothing >>>>> to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. >>>> Thirdly, >>>>> just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before >> we >>>> go >>>>> about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what >>>>> Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our >>>> teaching >>>>> needs. >>>>> >>>>> This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", >>>> part >>>>> of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the >>>> Collected >>>>> Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): >>>>> >>>>> ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, >>>>> ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? >>>>> ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? >>>>> ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? >>>> ???????? >>>>> ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? >>>>> ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? >>>> ???????????, >>>>> ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? >>>>> ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? >> ?????????? >>>>> ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. >>>>> "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the >>>>> happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be >>>> grouped >>>>> around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. >>> Consequently, >>>>> when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least >>>>> presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this >>> appointed >>>>> time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear >>> afterwards >>>>> might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral >> lines >>>> of >>>>> development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the >>>> critical >>>>> age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, >>> i.e. >>>>> its relationship to the subsequent age." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the >>>>> subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some >>>>> pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the >> child's >>>>> psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual >>> development, >>>>> and not the zone of proximal development at all. >>>>> >>>>> Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and >> learning. >>>> He >>>>> told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid >>> it: >>>>> instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie >>> that >>>>> left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need >>> to >>>> do >>>>> now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> Macquarie University >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < >>>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for this David. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree with what you are saying at many levels. >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have >>>>>> significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the >>>>>> assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about >>>>>> ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning >> component >>>>>> for sure. >>>>>> >>>>>> My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to >> go >>>>>> beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of >> development >>>>>> in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of >>>>>> interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow >>>>>> and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from >>>>>> doing large longitudinal studies. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature >> presents >>>>>> many problems. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Arturo >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Arturo: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking >>> about. >>>>>>> Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think >> there >>>> are >>>>>>> three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of >>> the >>>>>> ZPD. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I >>> think >>>> the >>>>>>> idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were >>>> picked >>>>>> up >>>>>>> in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of >> development". >>>> But >>>>>>> there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there >>> hasn't >>>>>> been >>>>>>> a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea >>>>>>> that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by >> the >>>>>> child >>>>>>> independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just >> too >>>>>>> attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, >>>> there >>>>>>> hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of >>>>>>> development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological >>> lectures, >>>> but >>>>>>> these haven't been translated yet). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's >>>> interesting >>>>>> to >>>>>>> compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological >> lectures: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ >>>>>> lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, >>> 1998: >>>>>>> 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing >>>> "test" >>>>>>> with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with >>>>>>> "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total >>>>>> nonsense. >>>>>>> Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT >>>>>>> diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is >>> infinitely >>>>>>> malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of >>>> mediation, >>>>>> can >>>>>>> become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from >>> its >>>>>>> Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for >>>>>>> Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function >>> MUST >>>> be >>>>>>> explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. >>> One >>>>>>> learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply >> that >>>> the >>>>>>> first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second >>> does >>>>>> not. >>>>>>> The functional explanation is that the first has the right >>> functional >>>>>>> motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while >>> the >>>>>> other >>>>>>> does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning >>>>>>> difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means >> that >>>> they >>>>>>> are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole >> lot >>>>>> easier >>>>>>> than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the >>> future >>>>>> are >>>>>>> linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird >>>> inversion >>>>>>> of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future >> is >>>>>>> intrinsically non-determinable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < >>>>>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot >> a >>>>>>>> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to >>> urbanistic >>>>>>>> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no >> longer >>>>>>>> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to >> that >>>>>>>> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual >> challenge >>>> of >>>>>>>> oral utterances. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic >>>>>>>> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words >>> when >>>>>>>> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese >>>>>>>> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arturo Escand?n >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied >>>>>> linguistics or >>>>>>>>> TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, >>>> sociogenetic, >>>>>>>>> ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful >>>> article >>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it >> would >>>> help >>>>>> us >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> distinguish better between ontogenetic development and >>> microgenetic >>>>>>>>> learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was >>> around >>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a >>> constant >>>>>>>> feature >>>>>>>>> of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly >>> associated >>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and >>>> doesn't >>>>>> use >>>>>>>>> it, and I think he's got good reasons. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, >>> Lewin, >>>>>>>>> Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to >> use >>>> the >>>>>>>> term >>>>>>>>> microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi >>>> psychology >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, >>> denounces >>>>>>>>> Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in >>>>>> Psychoneurology". I >>>>>>>>> think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates >> external >>>>>>>>> perception with perceiving meaning. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls >>> his >>>>>>>> "micro" >>>>>>>>> scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to >>>>>> biological, >>>>>>>>> social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a >>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>> point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high >>>>>> fidelity >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she >> sees >>>> that >>>>>>>> her >>>>>>>>> daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual >>> meaning. >>>>>> But >>>>>>>>> "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the >>>> specific >>>>>>>>> weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis >>> is >>>>>> what >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are >>>> reading >>>>>>>>> Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>>> Macquarie University >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> From wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 16:29:05 2016 From: wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com (Wolff-Michael Roth) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 16:29:05 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: <981E8445-3F39-4DBE-A501-0831D1DA4CCA@gmail.com> References: <981E8445-3F39-4DBE-A501-0831D1DA4CCA@gmail.com> Message-ID: David, I am sorry to hear you get all rejects. But concluding the system is broken sounds like a Trumpism: I accept peer review as long as I get accepted. The editors may have something when they ask you to re-read. I would say the same with respect to your comment, when you say "Roth calls everything a crisis". I do not think that the article you are referring to calls everything a crisis. I was wondering whether you would share with us some of the comments you used to reject the works of others? Does the call to reject the rejectors also apply to you? I was wondering whether you might sound like this reviewer (the metaphor part makes me think of the possibility that you might have written it: *The basic argument is that according to Vygotsky and according to dialectical materialism, development takes place unpredictably as a result of continued incremental change. I believe that this is the most barren conception of development possible and greatly under-represents Vygotsky's work. The arguments given are in my view very superficial, relying mostly on metaphors and analogies with very little psychological content. Also, almost every quote from Vygotsky, Engels or Hegel was garbled and either lacking in references or given inaccurate references. I do not have the mathematical works at hand to check them. But falsification of sources is a serious defect which cannot be published in MCA.* *However, I recommend rejection not so much for the paucity of argument or the inaccurate references, but because the basic argument is unworthy of publication.* I tend to take every review to heart and wonder what I can learn from it. Respectfully, Michael -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth *Concrete Human Psychology* ( https://www.routledge.com/products/9781138833098) On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 4:01 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > David and all, > Back in the day (the 80s) there were articles on L2 learning on two themes > that you might find relevant to the subject line: > 1) L2 learning as culture shock. More than one author on this. Culture > shock = Crisis maybe. > 2) The optimal distance model of L2 learning. H.D. Brown was known for his > articles on this. The model, as I recall, explained ?foreign accents? not > as the inability to attain native pronunciation but as a intra- and > inter-subjective need to maintain identity that is closely associated with > L1. > May be of interest > Henry > > > > On Oct 21, 2016, at 3:11 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > Mike: I think the flaws in methodology are exactly what Arturo is > talking > > about. In foreign language teaching, the only real acknowledgement of the > > nonlinear nature of language development is in the mysterious "U-shaped > > curve" that seems to accompany the learning of grammar but not > vocabulary. > > But the general response to this been to switch the focus in teaching > > to...vocabulary (e.g. Michael Lewis's "Lexical Approach", Nattinger and > > DeCarrico's work on formulaic phrases, Keyword method studies, etc.). > Part > > of the problem is that the vast majority of published studies are done by > > professors on their undergraduates. > > > > A.N. Leontiev's denial of crises is to be found in his book "Problems of > > Development of Mind" (and also in "The Neo-Vygotskyan Approach to Child > > Development" by Yurie Karpov, excellently reviewed for MCA by Bert Oers). > > A.A. Leontiev wrote, as far as I can figure out, one book on foreign > > language teaching. " Psychology and the Language Learning Process", OUP. > > There is very little on age specific teaching at all: he seems to think > > that movies are great way of teaching foreign languages (I think all > > foreign language teachers go through a "movie" phase when they discover > how > > difficult it really is to use and teach a language at the same time). But > > it's clear that a lot of his students are adults and not children. > > > > Not one of the half dozen papers that I submitted on ZPDs and crises of > > language development over the last year has been accepted for > publication. > > I had exactly the same problem about fifteen years ago when I first > started > > writing about group ZPDs--as soon as you raise the idea that there might > be > > a ZPD for a whole class of children, the editor tells you to go and read > > Vygotsky. Now every time you say that real language development entails > > crises, editors ask indignantly where Vygotsky could have said THAT. I > > think the only mention of the crisis in language learning (and not > foreign > > language learning) I've managed to get in print was the Commentary on > > Roth's piece that just came out in MCA (Roth calls everything a crisis, > > even when water turns into ice). > > > > With the sole exception of MCA (I just got another reject, but it was a > > real, thoughtful and very useful one), I think Huw is right--the system's > > broken. We need new ways of getting ideas around or we're really at the > end > > of our own intellectual development. Who will reject the rejecters? Where > > will THEIR crises come from? > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 11:40 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> David & Arturo. You lost me you got to AA Leontiev, > >> David. Which of his writings on the organization of language learning > >> activity can I find that he denied crises in development. In principle, > >> such ideas should show up in flaws in his methodology. How does that > work? > >> > >> I have read more than I have forgotten, but I would like to see how this > >> issue influences the pedagogy. > >> > >> Maybe you would be interested in helping us identify texts, Arturo. > >> > >> Note, in our own published work on the acquisition of reading we adopt a > >> developmental model of the process. To tell the truth, the whole process > >> felt like a crisis for us and the kids, but qualitative change, and new > >> modes of diagnosis, emerged. Both microgenetically (in a day's > >> interactions) and in the ontogeny of the child as the new form of > behavior > >> spread and solidified. > >> > >> I have access to articles in Soviet Psychology/Journal of Russian > >> Psychology if the requisite materials are not already in your hands. > >> > >> Seems like a place where questions of theory and questions of practice > come > >> together. David has been teaching L2 for a long time. Others, like > Phillip, > >> are teachers in schools where students are highly varied in their > >> acquisition of English. > >> > >> A lot of others on xmca could also describe (or deny the presence of ) > >> crises that arise when there is a qualitative shift in L1-->L2 > students. I > >> seemed to go through distinct stages, qualitative shifts, in the > >> acquisition of spoken and written Russian. I acquired the ability to > speak > >> more quickly than to write. Reading was the refuge where I had to figure > >> out what people had been saying in the seminar from written texts. I do > not > >> remember any moment of crisis (except that of a dumb, dangerous, > foreigner, > >> newby) when I became qualitatively different. My best evidence that it > was > >> a qualitative shift is that my wife, who went through all these events > with > >> me, does not like my personality when I spoke Russian to this day. :~) > >> > >> It would be totally neat to find convergence around AA Leontiev here > that > >> could generate a classic article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity.* > >> > >> mike > >> > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 2:39 PM, David Kellogg > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Arturo: > >>> > >>> Yes, exactly! As soon as we ripped applied linguistics out of > >> linguistics, > >>> we started down a path of social-behaviourism. The result is, as you > say, > >>> that L2 teaching has become behavioristic and na?ve in the extreme. > >>> > >>> Although, as you'll see from the other posting I wrote today, I think > >> it's > >>> important to stress how different learning is from development, I also > >>> think that one thing that all forms of genetic change have (phylo-, > >> socio-, > >>> onto- and micro-) is the crisis: crises are simply inherent in the > >> process > >>> of development itself, because at some point the process of development > >>> turns back on itself and the means of development itself develops. > That's > >>> why Vygotsky speaks of "cycles of development". > >>> > >>> The problem with both Leontievs (A.A. and A.L.) is that they were > >> committed > >>> to demonstrating that development could take place without crises. I > >> think > >>> this was a political commitment, linked to Stalin's declaration of the > >> end > >>> of history. It is always a mistake to declare that history is at an > end: > >>> that is one of the main differences between sociogenesis and > ontogenesis. > >>> > >>> David Kellogg > >>> Macquarie University > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Arturo Escandon < > >>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Dear David, > >>>> > >>>> I am laughing load about your exchange with Mike. > >>>> > >>>> Of course I do not discard microgenetic processes at all. Perhaps my > >>>> "unfortunately" comes from the fact that L2 teaching continuous to be > >>>> so behaviorist and naive. SLA advocates try to go round the notion of > >>>> input-output unsuccessfully. These conditions influence my research as > >>>> any social or production condition does. It is as if one could not > >>>> abstract of the institutional object set for "learning". > >>>> > >>>> What I have done is base my approach on A.A. Leontiev notions of > >>>> speech activity vis a vis communication activity to determine at least > >>>> four stages that a learner with no knowledge of a L2 must go through > >>>> to master it. Those I renamed substructural, structural, functional > >>>> and rhetorical stages. They all differ in the object of the activity. > >>>> But none of these stages is reached by one single learning activity. > >>>> So no microgenetic process can "trigger" mastery. On the contrary, > >>>> learners need to go through many learning tasks until they develop > >>>> comprehensive conceptual models for each stage. The developments of > >>>> those models run against their very understanding of their own L1. It > >>>> is hard to grasp the actual genesis of that development for the stages > >>>> cannot be clearly separated one another and because instructions is > >>>> distributed. You see, learners learn grammar with L1 speakers and > >>>> conversation with L2 speakers in more or less chaotic and asystematic > >>>> learning settings. > >>>> > >>>> The question is how one can deal with zones which do not have an age > >>>> crisis that help distinguishing one from the next. Risking deforming > >>>> the notion of zoped,I still prefer to have some kind of developmental > >>>> targets and stages rather than basing instruction on an endless chain > >>>> of learning tasks just to fill teaching time. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for providing those Russian excerpts. > >>>> > >>>> All the best. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Arturo > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 09:33, David Kellogg > >> wrote: > >>>>> Arturo: > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > >>>>> possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also > >> be > >>> a > >>>>> "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > >>>> evolution > >>>>> (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > >>>>> Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > >>>>> proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer > >> than I > >>>>> ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good > >>>> idea > >>>>> to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for > >> "development" > >>>> and > >>>>> not for learning. > >>>>> > >>>>> Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the > >>> what > >>>>> word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we > >> are > >>>>> necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an > >> interpersonal > >>>>> phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very > >> often > >>>>> ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > >>>> nothing > >>>>> to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > >>>> Thirdly, > >>>>> just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before > >> we > >>>> go > >>>>> about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > >>>>> Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > >>>> teaching > >>>>> needs. > >>>>> > >>>>> This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", > >>>> part > >>>>> of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > >>>> Collected > >>>>> Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > >>>>> > >>>>> ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > >>>>> ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > >>>>> ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > >>>>> ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > >>>> ???????? > >>>>> ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > >>>>> ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > >>>> ???????????, > >>>>> ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > >>>>> ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? > >> ?????????? > >>>>> ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > >>>>> "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > >>>>> happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > >>>> grouped > >>>>> around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > >>> Consequently, > >>>>> when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > >>>>> presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > >>> appointed > >>>>> time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > >>> afterwards > >>>>> might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral > >> lines > >>>> of > >>>>> development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > >>>> critical > >>>>> age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, > >>> i.e. > >>>>> its relationship to the subsequent age." > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > >>>>> subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > >>>>> pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the > >> child's > >>>>> psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > >>> development, > >>>>> and not the zone of proximal development at all. > >>>>> > >>>>> Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and > >> learning. > >>>> He > >>>>> told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid > >>> it: > >>>>> instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie > >>> that > >>>>> left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need > >>> to > >>>> do > >>>>> now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>> > >>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>> . > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > >>>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you for this David. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > >>>>>> significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > >>>>>> assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > >>>>>> ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > >> component > >>>>>> for sure. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to > >> go > >>>>>> beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of > >> development > >>>>>> in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > >>>>>> interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > >>>>>> and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > >>>>>> doing large longitudinal studies. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature > >> presents > >>>>>> many problems. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Arturo > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> Arturo: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > >>> about. > >>>>>>> Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think > >> there > >>>> are > >>>>>>> three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of > >>> the > >>>>>> ZPD. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > >>> think > >>>> the > >>>>>>> idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > >>>> picked > >>>>>> up > >>>>>>> in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of > >> development". > >>>> But > >>>>>>> there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > >>> hasn't > >>>>>> been > >>>>>>> a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > >>>>>>> that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by > >> the > >>>>>> child > >>>>>>> independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just > >> too > >>>>>>> attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > >>>> there > >>>>>>> hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > >>>>>>> development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > >>> lectures, > >>>> but > >>>>>>> these haven't been translated yet). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > >>>> interesting > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>> compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > >> lectures: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > >>>>>> lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > >>> 1998: > >>>>>>> 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > >>>> "test" > >>>>>>> with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > >>>>>>> "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > >>>>>> nonsense. > >>>>>>> Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > >>>>>>> diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > >>> infinitely > >>>>>>> malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > >>>> mediation, > >>>>>> can > >>>>>>> become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from > >>> its > >>>>>>> Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > >>>>>>> Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function > >>> MUST > >>>> be > >>>>>>> explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. > >>> One > >>>>>>> learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply > >> that > >>>> the > >>>>>>> first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second > >>> does > >>>>>> not. > >>>>>>> The functional explanation is that the first has the right > >>> functional > >>>>>>> motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while > >>> the > >>>>>> other > >>>>>>> does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > >>>>>>> difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means > >> that > >>>> they > >>>>>>> are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole > >> lot > >>>>>> easier > >>>>>>> than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > >>> future > >>>>>> are > >>>>>>> linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > >>>> inversion > >>>>>>> of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future > >> is > >>>>>>> intrinsically non-determinable. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > >>>>>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> David, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot > >> a > >>>>>>>> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > >>> urbanistic > >>>>>>>> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no > >> longer > >>>>>>>> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to > >> that > >>>>>>>> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > >> challenge > >>>> of > >>>>>>>> oral utterances. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > >>>>>>>> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words > >>> when > >>>>>>>> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > >>>>>>>> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Best > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Arturo Escand?n > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > >>>>>> linguistics or > >>>>>>>>> TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > >>>> sociogenetic, > >>>>>>>>> ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > >>>> article > >>>>>> on > >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it > >> would > >>>> help > >>>>>> us > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>> distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > >>> microgenetic > >>>>>>>>> learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > >>> around > >>>>>> when > >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > >>> constant > >>>>>>>> feature > >>>>>>>>> of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > >>> associated > >>>>>> with > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > >>>> doesn't > >>>>>> use > >>>>>>>>> it, and I think he's got good reasons. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > >>> Lewin, > >>>>>>>>> Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to > >> use > >>>> the > >>>>>>>> term > >>>>>>>>> microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > >>>> psychology > >>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>> not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > >>> denounces > >>>>>>>>> Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > >>>>>> Psychoneurology". I > >>>>>>>>> think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > >> external > >>>>>>>>> perception with perceiving meaning. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls > >>> his > >>>>>>>> "micro" > >>>>>>>>> scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > >>>>>> biological, > >>>>>>>>> social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > >>>>>> particular > >>>>>>>>> point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > >>>>>> fidelity > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>> much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she > >> sees > >>>> that > >>>>>>>> her > >>>>>>>>> daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > >>> meaning. > >>>>>> But > >>>>>>>>> "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > >>>> specific > >>>>>>>>> weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis > >>> is > >>>>>> what > >>>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>>> get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > >>>> reading > >>>>>>>>> Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Oct 21 16:42:11 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 16:42:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Analytic/synthetic Message-ID: I am passing on a query from a colleague that I thought might find resonance on this list. If anyone has useful suggestions could you pass along to me, mcole@ucsd.edu? thanks mike -------------- One of the more interesting (Russian) primate psychologists I came across many years ago was N.I. Voitonis. He worked a lot with baboons and macaques at Sukhumi and published a great book 'Predistoriia Intellekta'. He distinguished two types of intelligence: analytic intelligence and synthetic intelligence. His basic conclusion was that monkeys and humans share analytic intelligence, but synthetic intelligence is largely the domain of humans. A prototypic experiment was to allow the monkey to play with a kid's ring pyramid. He would give the toy to a monkey or a child with the rings stacked on the post. Both the monkey and the kid would quickly take it apart, but only the kid had any inclination to put it back together...regardless of how many times he showed the monkey how to do it. I'm working on a manuscript about cognitive and behavioral differences between species and find the analytic/synthetic intelligence dichotomy a useful generalization when it comes to characterizing the results of diverse tool-use studies and language studies. I'd like to tie the concept to some modern 'school' of psychology but haven't had much luck on the human side. Do you know of experimental psychologists who think that way? From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 17:08:17 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 01:08:17 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analytic/synthetic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From experience, I know that young children (e.g. 1 year olds) do not like to build things either, but are rather compulsive at knocking things down. Building blocks seem to say "knock me down" earlier than they say "build me up". I have a video of one building a tower from a collection of tea-bag boxes (spontaneously) when (going by the video date) he is 14 months. I suspect what would be worth looking at is the development of conscious goals, rather than conscious reactions. The young child can babble out loud and clearly has a goal in mind. For younger children the goal is simply to knock the tower over, perhaps compulsively -- i.e. with less consciously directed operations. Might be helpful? Best, Huw On 22 October 2016 at 00:42, mike cole wrote: > I am passing on a query from a colleague that I thought might find > resonance on this > list. If anyone has useful suggestions could you pass along to me, > mcole@ucsd.edu? > > thanks > mike > -------------- > One of the more interesting (Russian) primate psychologists I came across > many years ago was N.I. Voitonis. He worked a lot with baboons and > macaques at Sukhumi and published a great book 'Predistoriia Intellekta'. > > He distinguished two types of intelligence: analytic intelligence and > synthetic intelligence. His basic conclusion was that monkeys and humans > share analytic intelligence, but synthetic intelligence is largely the > domain of humans. A prototypic experiment was to allow the monkey to play > with a kid's ring pyramid. He would give the toy to a monkey or a child > with the rings stacked on the post. Both the monkey and the kid would > quickly take it apart, but only the kid had any inclination to put it back > together...regardless of how many times he showed the monkey how to do it. > > I'm working on a manuscript about cognitive and behavioral differences > between species and find the analytic/synthetic intelligence dichotomy a > useful generalization when it comes to characterizing the results of > diverse tool-use studies and language studies. I'd like to tie the concept > to some modern 'school' of psychology but haven't had much luck on the > human side. Do you know of experimental psychologists who think that way? > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 17:12:49 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:12:49 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: <981E8445-3F39-4DBE-A501-0831D1DA4CCA@gmail.com> Message-ID: It wasn't me, Michael. To tell you the truth, I am a lousy reviewer, I never give anybody an outright rejection, because I assume the editor had a good reason for sending it out for review. In fact, what I usually say is "publish and I'll write a reply", and as you can see I sometimes get a really conscientious, top-notch editor who will acquiesce. A propos, I think I remember a wonderful article on the ox-herding pictures which YOU once sent to me, and I suggested publishing, but unfortunately, for reasons I still can't understand and which were never explained, it got nixed. Anyway, I'm afraid I can't share any rejections I've written with you; I don't actually write any, or I haven't for a long time anyway. I am not actually offended by the comparison with Trump, although I don't think that was your intention anyway. I certainly agree that America is not a democracy and that the elections are a sham, I myself do not intend to accept the results, since there will be no working class party substantially represented, and I think the exclusion of working class parties by itself constitutes a rigging of the election by the American bourgeoisie. The fact that Trump is able to garner a full third or even more of the electorate simply by being rich, white and male and hang onto this third no matter what he says and does is only an epiphenomenal example of the much more profound way in which US elections are rigged. And now I think we can all agree that if any system is well and truly broken, surely this is one. Like you I delight in a good rejection: they are indeed a good source of development and we should revel in the rare ones that show care and discrimination. But like anything else, when you get a lot of them, you become something of a connoisseur. My least favourite rejections are those by editors who ask you to read things they have clearly not read themselves, or not read carefully enough. My favourite kind are those that come with quite searching questions and specific suggestions, and my last rejection from MCA was certainly a case in point. Alas, I must keep it to myself; I do intend to resubmit. Here is one problem that is worth sharing on the list, I think; it's related to an exchange that you and Mike had with Matusov, and also to the discussion we once had on whether the Chicago system should be adopted for footnoting in lieu of APA. Editors will often object to the way I do literature reviews, because, like you, I dislike name-dropping. But in order to do what Swales used to call CARS ("Create A Research Space") I am asked to play a kind of game of "Snowball", where you cite all the work that has been done on a particular problem, usually in some very general statement like "X has been extensively studied" followed by mammoth parentheses stuffed with a dozen names that have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. The next writer will have to play the same game and add my name, and the result is that the "Research Space" always gets smaller and smaller and the statement of common interest gets more and more general. So instead I tend to select three studies, leave the summary of research where the reader can find it (i.e. in the studies cited), subject the studies to the kind of criticism they might have from a good reviewer, and then try to overcome the perceived weaknesses with my own study. But one of the problems is that, for better or worse, the authors I have criticized are called in as reviewers. This adds to the piquancy of the review, but it also increases the chance of rejection. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 10:29 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth < wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > David, > > I am sorry to hear you get all rejects. But concluding the system is broken > sounds like a Trumpism: I accept peer review as long as I get accepted. > > The editors may have something when they ask you to re-read. I would say > the same with respect to your comment, when you say "Roth calls everything > a crisis". I do not think that the article you are referring to calls > everything a crisis. > > I was wondering whether you would share with us some of the comments you > used to reject the works of others? Does the call to reject the rejectors > also apply to you? I was wondering whether you might sound like this > reviewer (the metaphor part makes me think of the possibility that you > might have written it: > > *The basic argument is that according to Vygotsky and according to > dialectical materialism, development takes place unpredictably as a result > of continued incremental change. I believe that this is the most barren > conception of development possible and greatly under-represents Vygotsky's > work. The arguments given are in my view very superficial, relying mostly > on metaphors and analogies with very little psychological content. Also, > almost every quote from Vygotsky, Engels or Hegel was garbled and either > lacking in references or given inaccurate references. I do not have the > mathematical works at hand to check them. But falsification of sources is a > serious defect which cannot be published in MCA.* > *However, I recommend rejection not so much for the paucity of argument or > the inaccurate references, but because the basic argument is unworthy of > publication.* > > I tend to take every review to heart and wonder what I can learn from it. > > Respectfully, > > Michael > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------- > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > Applied Cognitive Science > MacLaurin Building A567 > University of Victoria > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > *Concrete Human Psychology* ( > https://www.routledge.com/products/9781138833098) > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 4:01 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > David and all, > > Back in the day (the 80s) there were articles on L2 learning on two > themes > > that you might find relevant to the subject line: > > 1) L2 learning as culture shock. More than one author on this. Culture > > shock = Crisis maybe. > > 2) The optimal distance model of L2 learning. H.D. Brown was known for > his > > articles on this. The model, as I recall, explained ?foreign accents? not > > as the inability to attain native pronunciation but as a intra- and > > inter-subjective need to maintain identity that is closely associated > with > > L1. > > May be of interest > > Henry > > > > > > > On Oct 21, 2016, at 3:11 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > > > > Mike: I think the flaws in methodology are exactly what Arturo is > > talking > > > about. In foreign language teaching, the only real acknowledgement of > the > > > nonlinear nature of language development is in the mysterious "U-shaped > > > curve" that seems to accompany the learning of grammar but not > > vocabulary. > > > But the general response to this been to switch the focus in teaching > > > to...vocabulary (e.g. Michael Lewis's "Lexical Approach", Nattinger and > > > DeCarrico's work on formulaic phrases, Keyword method studies, etc.). > > Part > > > of the problem is that the vast majority of published studies are done > by > > > professors on their undergraduates. > > > > > > A.N. Leontiev's denial of crises is to be found in his book "Problems > of > > > Development of Mind" (and also in "The Neo-Vygotskyan Approach to Child > > > Development" by Yurie Karpov, excellently reviewed for MCA by Bert > Oers). > > > A.A. Leontiev wrote, as far as I can figure out, one book on foreign > > > language teaching. " Psychology and the Language Learning Process", > OUP. > > > There is very little on age specific teaching at all: he seems to think > > > that movies are great way of teaching foreign languages (I think all > > > foreign language teachers go through a "movie" phase when they discover > > how > > > difficult it really is to use and teach a language at the same time). > But > > > it's clear that a lot of his students are adults and not children. > > > > > > Not one of the half dozen papers that I submitted on ZPDs and crises of > > > language development over the last year has been accepted for > > publication. > > > I had exactly the same problem about fifteen years ago when I first > > started > > > writing about group ZPDs--as soon as you raise the idea that there > might > > be > > > a ZPD for a whole class of children, the editor tells you to go and > read > > > Vygotsky. Now every time you say that real language development entails > > > crises, editors ask indignantly where Vygotsky could have said THAT. I > > > think the only mention of the crisis in language learning (and not > > foreign > > > language learning) I've managed to get in print was the Commentary on > > > Roth's piece that just came out in MCA (Roth calls everything a crisis, > > > even when water turns into ice). > > > > > > With the sole exception of MCA (I just got another reject, but it was a > > > real, thoughtful and very useful one), I think Huw is right--the > system's > > > broken. We need new ways of getting ideas around or we're really at the > > end > > > of our own intellectual development. Who will reject the rejecters? > Where > > > will THEIR crises come from? > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 11:40 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > >> David & Arturo. You lost me you got to AA Leontiev, > > >> David. Which of his writings on the organization of language learning > > >> activity can I find that he denied crises in development. In > principle, > > >> such ideas should show up in flaws in his methodology. How does that > > work? > > >> > > >> I have read more than I have forgotten, but I would like to see how > this > > >> issue influences the pedagogy. > > >> > > >> Maybe you would be interested in helping us identify texts, Arturo. > > >> > > >> Note, in our own published work on the acquisition of reading we > adopt a > > >> developmental model of the process. To tell the truth, the whole > process > > >> felt like a crisis for us and the kids, but qualitative change, and > new > > >> modes of diagnosis, emerged. Both microgenetically (in a day's > > >> interactions) and in the ontogeny of the child as the new form of > > behavior > > >> spread and solidified. > > >> > > >> I have access to articles in Soviet Psychology/Journal of Russian > > >> Psychology if the requisite materials are not already in your hands. > > >> > > >> Seems like a place where questions of theory and questions of practice > > come > > >> together. David has been teaching L2 for a long time. Others, like > > Phillip, > > >> are teachers in schools where students are highly varied in their > > >> acquisition of English. > > >> > > >> A lot of others on xmca could also describe (or deny the presence of ) > > >> crises that arise when there is a qualitative shift in L1-->L2 > > students. I > > >> seemed to go through distinct stages, qualitative shifts, in the > > >> acquisition of spoken and written Russian. I acquired the ability to > > speak > > >> more quickly than to write. Reading was the refuge where I had to > figure > > >> out what people had been saying in the seminar from written texts. I > do > > not > > >> remember any moment of crisis (except that of a dumb, dangerous, > > foreigner, > > >> newby) when I became qualitatively different. My best evidence that it > > was > > >> a qualitative shift is that my wife, who went through all these events > > with > > >> me, does not like my personality when I spoke Russian to this day. :~) > > >> > > >> It would be totally neat to find convergence around AA Leontiev here > > that > > >> could generate a classic article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity.* > > >> > > >> mike > > >> > > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 2:39 PM, David Kellogg > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Arturo: > > >>> > > >>> Yes, exactly! As soon as we ripped applied linguistics out of > > >> linguistics, > > >>> we started down a path of social-behaviourism. The result is, as you > > say, > > >>> that L2 teaching has become behavioristic and na?ve in the extreme. > > >>> > > >>> Although, as you'll see from the other posting I wrote today, I think > > >> it's > > >>> important to stress how different learning is from development, I > also > > >>> think that one thing that all forms of genetic change have (phylo-, > > >> socio-, > > >>> onto- and micro-) is the crisis: crises are simply inherent in the > > >> process > > >>> of development itself, because at some point the process of > development > > >>> turns back on itself and the means of development itself develops. > > That's > > >>> why Vygotsky speaks of "cycles of development". > > >>> > > >>> The problem with both Leontievs (A.A. and A.L.) is that they were > > >> committed > > >>> to demonstrating that development could take place without crises. I > > >> think > > >>> this was a political commitment, linked to Stalin's declaration of > the > > >> end > > >>> of history. It is always a mistake to declare that history is at an > > end: > > >>> that is one of the main differences between sociogenesis and > > ontogenesis. > > >>> > > >>> David Kellogg > > >>> Macquarie University > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > >>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Dear David, > > >>>> > > >>>> I am laughing load about your exchange with Mike. > > >>>> > > >>>> Of course I do not discard microgenetic processes at all. Perhaps my > > >>>> "unfortunately" comes from the fact that L2 teaching continuous to > be > > >>>> so behaviorist and naive. SLA advocates try to go round the notion > of > > >>>> input-output unsuccessfully. These conditions influence my research > as > > >>>> any social or production condition does. It is as if one could not > > >>>> abstract of the institutional object set for "learning". > > >>>> > > >>>> What I have done is base my approach on A.A. Leontiev notions of > > >>>> speech activity vis a vis communication activity to determine at > least > > >>>> four stages that a learner with no knowledge of a L2 must go through > > >>>> to master it. Those I renamed substructural, structural, functional > > >>>> and rhetorical stages. They all differ in the object of the > activity. > > >>>> But none of these stages is reached by one single learning activity. > > >>>> So no microgenetic process can "trigger" mastery. On the contrary, > > >>>> learners need to go through many learning tasks until they develop > > >>>> comprehensive conceptual models for each stage. The developments of > > >>>> those models run against their very understanding of their own L1. > It > > >>>> is hard to grasp the actual genesis of that development for the > stages > > >>>> cannot be clearly separated one another and because instructions is > > >>>> distributed. You see, learners learn grammar with L1 speakers and > > >>>> conversation with L2 speakers in more or less chaotic and > asystematic > > >>>> learning settings. > > >>>> > > >>>> The question is how one can deal with zones which do not have an age > > >>>> crisis that help distinguishing one from the next. Risking deforming > > >>>> the notion of zoped,I still prefer to have some kind of > developmental > > >>>> targets and stages rather than basing instruction on an endless > chain > > >>>> of learning tasks just to fill teaching time. > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks for providing those Russian excerpts. > > >>>> > > >>>> All the best. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Arturo > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 09:33, David Kellogg > > >> wrote: > > >>>>> Arturo: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > >>>>> possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also > > >> be > > >>> a > > >>>>> "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > >>>> evolution > > >>>>> (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > >>>>> Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone > of > > >>>>> proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer > > >> than I > > >>>>> ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very > good > > >>>> idea > > >>>>> to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for > > >> "development" > > >>>> and > > >>>>> not for learning. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in > the > > >>> what > > >>>>> word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we > > >> are > > >>>>> necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an > > >> interpersonal > > >>>>> phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very > > >> often > > >>>>> ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > > >>>> nothing > > >>>>> to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > > >>>> Thirdly, > > >>>>> just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing > before > > >> we > > >>>> go > > >>>>> about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand > what > > >>>>> Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > > >>>> teaching > > >>>>> needs. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at > Three", > > >>>> part > > >>>>> of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > >>>> Collected > > >>>>> Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > >>>>> ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? > ??????-???? > > >>>>> ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > >>>>> ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > > >>>> ???????? > > >>>>> ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > >>>>> ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > >>>> ???????????, > > >>>>> ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? > ??????????. ? > > >>>>> ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? > > >> ?????????? > > >>>>> ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > >>>>> "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > >>>>> happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > > >>>> grouped > > >>>>> around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > > >>> Consequently, > > >>>>> when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very > least > > >>>>> presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > > >>> appointed > > >>>>> time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > > >>> afterwards > > >>>>> might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral > > >> lines > > >>>> of > > >>>>> development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > > >>>> critical > > >>>>> age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, > > >>> i.e. > > >>>>> its relationship to the subsequent age." > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > >>>>> subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > >>>>> pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the > > >> child's > > >>>>> psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > > >>> development, > > >>>>> and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and > > >> learning. > > >>>> He > > >>>>> told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to > avoid > > >>> it: > > >>>>> instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie > > >>> that > > >>>>> left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we > need > > >>> to > > >>>> do > > >>>>> now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the > ZPD. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> David Kellogg > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Macquarie University > > >>>>> . > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > >>>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Thank you for this David. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > >>>>>> significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > >>>>>> assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > >>>>>> ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > > >> component > > >>>>>> for sure. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students > to > > >> go > > >>>>>> beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of > > >> development > > >>>>>> in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > >>>>>> interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very > narrow > > >>>>>> and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me > from > > >>>>>> doing large longitudinal studies. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature > > >> presents > > >>>>>> many problems. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Arturo > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> Arturo: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > > >>> about. > > >>>>>>> Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think > > >> there > > >>>> are > > >>>>>>> three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion > of > > >>> the > > >>>>>> ZPD. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > > >>> think > > >>>> the > > >>>>>>> idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > > >>>> picked > > >>>>>> up > > >>>>>>> in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of > > >> development". > > >>>> But > > >>>>>>> there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > > >>> hasn't > > >>>>>> been > > >>>>>>> a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the > idea > > >>>>>>> that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by > > >> the > > >>>>>> child > > >>>>>>> independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just > > >> too > > >>>>>>> attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > > >>>> there > > >>>>>>> hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > >>>>>>> development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > > >>> lectures, > > >>>> but > > >>>>>>> these haven't been translated yet). > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > >>>> interesting > > >>>>>> to > > >>>>>>> compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > > >> lectures: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > >>>>>> lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > > >>> 1998: > > >>>>>>> 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > > >>>> "test" > > >>>>>>> with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" > with > > >>>>>>> "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > >>>>>> nonsense. > > >>>>>>> Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > >>>>>>> diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > > >>> infinitely > > >>>>>>> malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > >>>> mediation, > > >>>>>> can > > >>>>>>> become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted > from > > >>> its > > >>>>>>> Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: > for > > >>>>>>> Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function > > >>> MUST > > >>>> be > > >>>>>>> explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two > children. > > >>> One > > >>>>>>> learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply > > >> that > > >>>> the > > >>>>>>> first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second > > >>> does > > >>>>>> not. > > >>>>>>> The functional explanation is that the first has the right > > >>> functional > > >>>>>>> motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while > > >>> the > > >>>>>> other > > >>>>>>> does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > >>>>>>> difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means > > >> that > > >>>> they > > >>>>>>> are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole > > >> lot > > >>>>>> easier > > >>>>>>> than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > > >>> future > > >>>>>> are > > >>>>>>> linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > >>>> inversion > > >>>>>>> of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future > > >> is > > >>>>>>> intrinsically non-determinable. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> David Kellogg > > >>>>>>> Macquarie University > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > >>>>>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> David, > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot > > >> a > > >>>>>>>> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > > >>> urbanistic > > >>>>>>>> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no > > >> longer > > >>>>>>>> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to > > >> that > > >>>>>>>> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > > >> challenge > > >>>> of > > >>>>>>>> oral utterances. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > >>>>>>>> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words > > >>> when > > >>>>>>>> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > >>>>>>>> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Best > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Arturo Escand?n > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > >>>>>> linguistics or > > >>>>>>>>> TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > >>>> sociogenetic, > > >>>>>>>>> ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > > >>>> article > > >>>>>> on > > >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it > > >> would > > >>>> help > > >>>>>> us > > >>>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>> distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > >>> microgenetic > > >>>>>>>>> learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > > >>> around > > >>>>>> when > > >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > > >>> constant > > >>>>>>>> feature > > >>>>>>>>> of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > > >>> associated > > >>>>>> with > > >>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>> Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > > >>>> doesn't > > >>>>>> use > > >>>>>>>>> it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > > >>> Lewin, > > >>>>>>>>> Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to > > >> use > > >>>> the > > >>>>>>>> term > > >>>>>>>>> microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > >>>> psychology > > >>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>> not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > > >>> denounces > > >>>>>>>>> Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > >>>>>> Psychoneurology". I > > >>>>>>>>> think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > > >> external > > >>>>>>>>> perception with perceiving meaning. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls > > >>> his > > >>>>>>>> "micro" > > >>>>>>>>> scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > >>>>>> biological, > > >>>>>>>>> social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > >>>>>> particular > > >>>>>>>>> point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > >>>>>> fidelity > > >>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>> much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she > > >> sees > > >>>> that > > >>>>>>>> her > > >>>>>>>>> daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > > >>> meaning. > > >>>>>> But > > >>>>>>>>> "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > > >>>> specific > > >>>>>>>>> weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis > > >>> is > > >>>>>> what > > >>>>>>>> you > > >>>>>>>>> get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > > >>>> reading > > >>>>>>>>> Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > > >>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > >> > > > > > > > From wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 17:54:30 2016 From: wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com (Wolff-Michael Roth) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 17:54:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: <981E8445-3F39-4DBE-A501-0831D1DA4CCA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi David, I appreciate your response a lot. And I guess you rightly assumed that I do not think the peer review system is perfect, and that we need a way, as you suggest, to have ideas out in the open to be discussed and pondered for their usefulness. Michael -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor Applied Cognitive Science MacLaurin Building A567 University of Victoria Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth *Concrete Human Psychology* ( https://www.routledge.com/products/9781138833098) On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 5:12 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > It wasn't me, Michael. To tell you the truth, I am a lousy reviewer, I > never give anybody an outright rejection, because I assume the editor had a > good reason for sending it out for review. In fact, what I usually say > is "publish and I'll write a reply", and as you can see I sometimes get > a really conscientious, top-notch editor who will acquiesce. A propos, I > think I remember a wonderful article on the ox-herding pictures which YOU > once sent to me, and I suggested publishing, but unfortunately, for reasons > I still can't understand and which were never explained, it got nixed. > Anyway, I'm afraid I can't share any rejections I've written with you; I > don't actually write any, or I haven't for a long time anyway. > > I am not actually offended by the comparison with Trump, although I don't > think that was your intention anyway. I certainly agree that America is not > a democracy and that the elections are a sham, I myself do not intend to > accept the results, since there will be no working class party > substantially represented, and I think the exclusion of working class > parties by itself constitutes a rigging of the election by the American > bourgeoisie. The fact that Trump is able to garner a full third or even > more of the electorate simply by being rich, white and male and hang onto > this third no matter what he says and does is only an epiphenomenal example > of the much more profound way in which US elections are rigged. And now I > think we can all agree that if any system is well and truly broken, surely > this is one. > > Like you I delight in a good rejection: they are indeed a good source of > development and we should revel in the rare ones that show care and > discrimination. But like anything else, when you get a lot of them, you > become something of a connoisseur. My least favourite rejections are those > by editors who ask you to read things they have clearly not read > themselves, or not read carefully enough. My favourite kind are those that > come with quite searching questions and specific suggestions, and my last > rejection from MCA was certainly a case in point. Alas, I must keep it to > myself; I do intend to resubmit. > > Here is one problem that is worth sharing on the list, I think; it's > related to an exchange that you and Mike had with Matusov, and also to the > discussion we once had on whether the Chicago system should be adopted for > footnoting in lieu of APA. Editors will often object to the way I do > literature reviews, because, like you, I dislike name-dropping. But in > order to do what Swales used to call CARS ("Create A Research Space") I am > asked to play a kind of game of "Snowball", where you cite all the work > that has been done on a particular problem, usually in some very general > statement like "X has been extensively studied" followed by mammoth > parentheses stuffed with a dozen names that have nothing whatsoever to do > with each other. The next writer will have to play the same game and add my > name, and the result is that the "Research Space" always gets smaller and > smaller and the statement of common interest gets more and more general. > > So instead I tend to select three studies, leave the summary of research > where the reader can find it (i.e. in the studies cited), subject the > studies to the kind of criticism they might have from a good reviewer, and > then try to overcome the perceived weaknesses with my own study. But one of > the problems is that, for better or worse, the authors I have criticized > are called in as reviewers. This adds to the piquancy of the review, but it > also increases the chance of rejection. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 10:29 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth < > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote: > > > David, > > > > I am sorry to hear you get all rejects. But concluding the system is > broken > > sounds like a Trumpism: I accept peer review as long as I get accepted. > > > > The editors may have something when they ask you to re-read. I would say > > the same with respect to your comment, when you say "Roth calls > everything > > a crisis". I do not think that the article you are referring to calls > > everything a crisis. > > > > I was wondering whether you would share with us some of the comments you > > used to reject the works of others? Does the call to reject the rejectors > > also apply to you? I was wondering whether you might sound like this > > reviewer (the metaphor part makes me think of the possibility that you > > might have written it: > > > > *The basic argument is that according to Vygotsky and according to > > dialectical materialism, development takes place unpredictably as a > result > > of continued incremental change. I believe that this is the most barren > > conception of development possible and greatly under-represents > Vygotsky's > > work. The arguments given are in my view very superficial, relying mostly > > on metaphors and analogies with very little psychological content. Also, > > almost every quote from Vygotsky, Engels or Hegel was garbled and either > > lacking in references or given inaccurate references. I do not have the > > mathematical works at hand to check them. But falsification of sources > is a > > serious defect which cannot be published in MCA.* > > *However, I recommend rejection not so much for the paucity of argument > or > > the inaccurate references, but because the basic argument is unworthy of > > publication.* > > > > I tend to take every review to heart and wonder what I can learn from it. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > -------------------- > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor > > Applied Cognitive Science > > MacLaurin Building A567 > > University of Victoria > > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2 > > > > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth > > *Concrete Human Psychology* ( > > https://www.routledge.com/products/9781138833098) > > > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 4:01 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > > > David and all, > > > Back in the day (the 80s) there were articles on L2 learning on two > > themes > > > that you might find relevant to the subject line: > > > 1) L2 learning as culture shock. More than one author on this. Culture > > > shock = Crisis maybe. > > > 2) The optimal distance model of L2 learning. H.D. Brown was known for > > his > > > articles on this. The model, as I recall, explained ?foreign accents? > not > > > as the inability to attain native pronunciation but as a intra- and > > > inter-subjective need to maintain identity that is closely associated > > with > > > L1. > > > May be of interest > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 21, 2016, at 3:11 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Mike: I think the flaws in methodology are exactly what Arturo is > > > talking > > > > about. In foreign language teaching, the only real acknowledgement of > > the > > > > nonlinear nature of language development is in the mysterious > "U-shaped > > > > curve" that seems to accompany the learning of grammar but not > > > vocabulary. > > > > But the general response to this been to switch the focus in teaching > > > > to...vocabulary (e.g. Michael Lewis's "Lexical Approach", Nattinger > and > > > > DeCarrico's work on formulaic phrases, Keyword method studies, etc.). > > > Part > > > > of the problem is that the vast majority of published studies are > done > > by > > > > professors on their undergraduates. > > > > > > > > A.N. Leontiev's denial of crises is to be found in his book "Problems > > of > > > > Development of Mind" (and also in "The Neo-Vygotskyan Approach to > Child > > > > Development" by Yurie Karpov, excellently reviewed for MCA by Bert > > Oers). > > > > A.A. Leontiev wrote, as far as I can figure out, one book on foreign > > > > language teaching. " Psychology and the Language Learning Process", > > OUP. > > > > There is very little on age specific teaching at all: he seems to > think > > > > that movies are great way of teaching foreign languages (I think all > > > > foreign language teachers go through a "movie" phase when they > discover > > > how > > > > difficult it really is to use and teach a language at the same time). > > But > > > > it's clear that a lot of his students are adults and not children. > > > > > > > > Not one of the half dozen papers that I submitted on ZPDs and crises > of > > > > language development over the last year has been accepted for > > > publication. > > > > I had exactly the same problem about fifteen years ago when I first > > > started > > > > writing about group ZPDs--as soon as you raise the idea that there > > might > > > be > > > > a ZPD for a whole class of children, the editor tells you to go and > > read > > > > Vygotsky. Now every time you say that real language development > entails > > > > crises, editors ask indignantly where Vygotsky could have said THAT. > I > > > > think the only mention of the crisis in language learning (and not > > > foreign > > > > language learning) I've managed to get in print was the Commentary > on > > > > Roth's piece that just came out in MCA (Roth calls everything a > crisis, > > > > even when water turns into ice). > > > > > > > > With the sole exception of MCA (I just got another reject, but it > was a > > > > real, thoughtful and very useful one), I think Huw is right--the > > system's > > > > broken. We need new ways of getting ideas around or we're really at > the > > > end > > > > of our own intellectual development. Who will reject the rejecters? > > Where > > > > will THEIR crises come from? > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 11:40 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > >> David & Arturo. You lost me you got to AA Leontiev, > > > >> David. Which of his writings on the organization of language > learning > > > >> activity can I find that he denied crises in development. In > > principle, > > > >> such ideas should show up in flaws in his methodology. How does that > > > work? > > > >> > > > >> I have read more than I have forgotten, but I would like to see how > > this > > > >> issue influences the pedagogy. > > > >> > > > >> Maybe you would be interested in helping us identify texts, Arturo. > > > >> > > > >> Note, in our own published work on the acquisition of reading we > > adopt a > > > >> developmental model of the process. To tell the truth, the whole > > process > > > >> felt like a crisis for us and the kids, but qualitative change, and > > new > > > >> modes of diagnosis, emerged. Both microgenetically (in a day's > > > >> interactions) and in the ontogeny of the child as the new form of > > > behavior > > > >> spread and solidified. > > > >> > > > >> I have access to articles in Soviet Psychology/Journal of Russian > > > >> Psychology if the requisite materials are not already in your hands. > > > >> > > > >> Seems like a place where questions of theory and questions of > practice > > > come > > > >> together. David has been teaching L2 for a long time. Others, like > > > Phillip, > > > >> are teachers in schools where students are highly varied in their > > > >> acquisition of English. > > > >> > > > >> A lot of others on xmca could also describe (or deny the presence > of ) > > > >> crises that arise when there is a qualitative shift in L1-->L2 > > > students. I > > > >> seemed to go through distinct stages, qualitative shifts, in the > > > >> acquisition of spoken and written Russian. I acquired the ability to > > > speak > > > >> more quickly than to write. Reading was the refuge where I had to > > figure > > > >> out what people had been saying in the seminar from written texts. I > > do > > > not > > > >> remember any moment of crisis (except that of a dumb, dangerous, > > > foreigner, > > > >> newby) when I became qualitatively different. My best evidence that > it > > > was > > > >> a qualitative shift is that my wife, who went through all these > events > > > with > > > >> me, does not like my personality when I spoke Russian to this day. > :~) > > > >> > > > >> It would be totally neat to find convergence around AA Leontiev here > > > that > > > >> could generate a classic article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity.* > > > >> > > > >> mike > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 2:39 PM, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Arturo: > > > >>> > > > >>> Yes, exactly! As soon as we ripped applied linguistics out of > > > >> linguistics, > > > >>> we started down a path of social-behaviourism. The result is, as > you > > > say, > > > >>> that L2 teaching has become behavioristic and na?ve in the extreme. > > > >>> > > > >>> Although, as you'll see from the other posting I wrote today, I > think > > > >> it's > > > >>> important to stress how different learning is from development, I > > also > > > >>> think that one thing that all forms of genetic change have (phylo-, > > > >> socio-, > > > >>> onto- and micro-) is the crisis: crises are simply inherent in the > > > >> process > > > >>> of development itself, because at some point the process of > > development > > > >>> turns back on itself and the means of development itself develops. > > > That's > > > >>> why Vygotsky speaks of "cycles of development". > > > >>> > > > >>> The problem with both Leontievs (A.A. and A.L.) is that they were > > > >> committed > > > >>> to demonstrating that development could take place without crises. > I > > > >> think > > > >>> this was a political commitment, linked to Stalin's declaration of > > the > > > >> end > > > >>> of history. It is always a mistake to declare that history is at an > > > end: > > > >>> that is one of the main differences between sociogenesis and > > > ontogenesis. > > > >>> > > > >>> David Kellogg > > > >>> Macquarie University > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > >>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> Dear David, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I am laughing load about your exchange with Mike. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Of course I do not discard microgenetic processes at all. Perhaps > my > > > >>>> "unfortunately" comes from the fact that L2 teaching continuous to > > be > > > >>>> so behaviorist and naive. SLA advocates try to go round the notion > > of > > > >>>> input-output unsuccessfully. These conditions influence my > research > > as > > > >>>> any social or production condition does. It is as if one could not > > > >>>> abstract of the institutional object set for "learning". > > > >>>> > > > >>>> What I have done is base my approach on A.A. Leontiev notions of > > > >>>> speech activity vis a vis communication activity to determine at > > least > > > >>>> four stages that a learner with no knowledge of a L2 must go > through > > > >>>> to master it. Those I renamed substructural, structural, > functional > > > >>>> and rhetorical stages. They all differ in the object of the > > activity. > > > >>>> But none of these stages is reached by one single learning > activity. > > > >>>> So no microgenetic process can "trigger" mastery. On the contrary, > > > >>>> learners need to go through many learning tasks until they develop > > > >>>> comprehensive conceptual models for each stage. The developments > of > > > >>>> those models run against their very understanding of their own L1. > > It > > > >>>> is hard to grasp the actual genesis of that development for the > > stages > > > >>>> cannot be clearly separated one another and because instructions > is > > > >>>> distributed. You see, learners learn grammar with L1 speakers and > > > >>>> conversation with L2 speakers in more or less chaotic and > > asystematic > > > >>>> learning settings. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> The question is how one can deal with zones which do not have an > age > > > >>>> crisis that help distinguishing one from the next. Risking > deforming > > > >>>> the notion of zoped,I still prefer to have some kind of > > developmental > > > >>>> targets and stages rather than basing instruction on an endless > > chain > > > >>>> of learning tasks just to fill teaching time. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Thanks for providing those Russian excerpts. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> All the best. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Arturo > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 09:33, David Kellogg > > > >> wrote: > > > >>>>> Arturo: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I > might > > > >>>>> possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may > also > > > >> be > > > >>> a > > > >>>>> "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > > >>>> evolution > > > >>>>> (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > > >>>>> Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone > > of > > > >>>>> proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer > > > >> than I > > > >>>>> ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very > > good > > > >>>> idea > > > >>>>> to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for > > > >> "development" > > > >>>> and > > > >>>>> not for learning. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in > > the > > > >>> what > > > >>>>> word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, > we > > > >> are > > > >>>>> necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an > > > >> interpersonal > > > >>>>> phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very > > > >> often > > > >>>>> ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that > have > > > >>>> nothing > > > >>>>> to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally > rooted. > > > >>>> Thirdly, > > > >>>>> just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing > > before > > > >> we > > > >>>> go > > > >>>>> about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand > > what > > > >>>>> Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to > our > > > >>>> teaching > > > >>>>> needs. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at > > Three", > > > >>>> part > > > >>>>> of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > > >>>> Collected > > > >>>>> Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > > >>>>> ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? > > ??????-???? > > > >>>>> ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > >>>>> ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? > ???????????????? > > > >>>> ???????? > > > >>>>> ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > > >>>>> ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > > >>>> ???????????, > > > >>>>> ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? > > ??????????. ? > > > >>>>> ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? > > > >> ?????????? > > > >>>>> ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > >>>>> "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all > the > > > >>>>> happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may > be > > > >>>> grouped > > > >>>>> around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > > > >>> Consequently, > > > >>>>> when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very > > least > > > >>>>> presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > > > >>> appointed > > > >>>>> time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > > > >>> afterwards > > > >>>>> might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral > > > >> lines > > > >>>> of > > > >>>>> development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate > the > > > >>>> critical > > > >>>>> age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal > development, > > > >>> i.e. > > > >>>>> its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > > >>>>> subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > >>>>> pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the > > > >> child's > > > >>>>> psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > > > >>> development, > > > >>>>> and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and > > > >> learning. > > > >>>> He > > > >>>>> told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to > > avoid > > > >>> it: > > > >>>>> instead, he arranged for me to review a book on > Ganzheitpsychologie > > > >>> that > > > >>>>> left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we > > need > > > >>> to > > > >>>> do > > > >>>>> now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the > > ZPD. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>> . > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > >>>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> Thank you for this David. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > > >>>>>> significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > > >>>>>> assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but > about > > > >>>>>> ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > > > >> component > > > >>>>>> for sure. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students > > to > > > >> go > > > >>>>>> beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of > > > >> development > > > >>>>>> in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind > of > > > >>>>>> interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very > > narrow > > > >>>>>> and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me > > from > > > >>>>>> doing large longitudinal studies. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature > > > >> presents > > > >>>>>> many problems. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Arturo > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>> Arturo: > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > > > >>> about. > > > >>>>>>> Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think > > > >> there > > > >>>> are > > > >>>>>>> three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion > > of > > > >>> the > > > >>>>>> ZPD. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > > > >>> think > > > >>>> the > > > >>>>>>> idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that > were > > > >>>> picked > > > >>>>>> up > > > >>>>>>> in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of > > > >> development". > > > >>>> But > > > >>>>>>> there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > > > >>> hasn't > > > >>>>>> been > > > >>>>>>> a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the > > idea > > > >>>>>>> that what the child can do today with assistance will be done > by > > > >> the > > > >>>>>> child > > > >>>>>>> independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is > just > > > >> too > > > >>>>>>> attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. > Secondly, > > > >>>> there > > > >>>>>>> hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone > of > > > >>>>>>> development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > > > >>> lectures, > > > >>>> but > > > >>>>>>> these haven't been translated yet). > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > > >>>> interesting > > > >>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>> compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > > > >> lectures: > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > >>>>>> lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > > > >>> 1998: > > > >>>>>>> 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on > replacing > > > >>>> "test" > > > >>>>>>> with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" > > with > > > >>>>>>> "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and > total > > > >>>>>> nonsense. > > > >>>>>>> Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is > NOT > > > >>>>>>> diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > > > >>> infinitely > > > >>>>>>> malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > > >>>> mediation, > > > >>>>>> can > > > >>>>>>> become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted > > from > > > >>> its > > > >>>>>>> Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: > > for > > > >>>>>>> Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but > function > > > >>> MUST > > > >>>> be > > > >>>>>>> explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two > > children. > > > >>> One > > > >>>>>>> learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply > > > >> that > > > >>>> the > > > >>>>>>> first one has the right mental structures to learn and the > second > > > >>> does > > > >>>>>> not. > > > >>>>>>> The functional explanation is that the first has the right > > > >>> functional > > > >>>>>>> motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) > while > > > >>> the > > > >>>>>> other > > > >>>>>>> does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of > learning > > > >>>>>>> difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means > > > >> that > > > >>>> they > > > >>>>>>> are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole > > > >> lot > > > >>>>>> easier > > > >>>>>>> than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > > > >>> future > > > >>>>>> are > > > >>>>>>> linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > > >>>> inversion > > > >>>>>>> of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the > future > > > >> is > > > >>>>>>> intrinsically non-determinable. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > >>>>>> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> David, > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to > spot > > > >> a > > > >>>>>>>> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > > > >>> urbanistic > > > >>>>>>>> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no > > > >> longer > > > >>>>>>>> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to > > > >> that > > > >>>>>>>> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > > > >> challenge > > > >>>> of > > > >>>>>>>> oral utterances. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > > >>>>>>>> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written > words > > > >>> when > > > >>>>>>>> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > > >>>>>>>> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Best > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Arturo Escand?n > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>> When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > > >>>>>> linguistics or > > > >>>>>>>>> TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > > >>>> sociogenetic, > > > >>>>>>>>> ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > > > >>>> article > > > >>>>>> on > > > >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it > > > >> would > > > >>>> help > > > >>>>>> us > > > >>>>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>> distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > > >>> microgenetic > > > >>>>>>>>> learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > > > >>> around > > > >>>>>> when > > > >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > > > >>> constant > > > >>>>>>>> feature > > > >>>>>>>>> of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > > > >>> associated > > > >>>>>> with > > > >>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>> Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > > > >>>> doesn't > > > >>>>>> use > > > >>>>>>>>> it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > > > >>> Lewin, > > > >>>>>>>>> Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to > > > >> use > > > >>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> term > > > >>>>>>>>> microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > > >>>> psychology > > > >>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>> not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > > > >>> denounces > > > >>>>>>>>> Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > >>>>>> Psychoneurology". I > > > >>>>>>>>> think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > > > >> external > > > >>>>>>>>> perception with perceiving meaning. > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", > calls > > > >>> his > > > >>>>>>>> "micro" > > > >>>>>>>>> scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > > >>>>>> biological, > > > >>>>>>>>> social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > > >>>>>> particular > > > >>>>>>>>> point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual > high > > > >>>>>> fidelity > > > >>>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>> much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she > > > >> sees > > > >>>> that > > > >>>>>>>> her > > > >>>>>>>>> daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > > > >>> meaning. > > > >>>>>> But > > > >>>>>>>>> "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > > > >>>> specific > > > >>>>>>>>> weight is first on one side and then on the other. > Microgenesis > > > >>> is > > > >>>>>> what > > > >>>>>>>> you > > > >>>>>>>>> get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you > are > > > >>>> reading > > > >>>>>>>>> Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> David Kellogg > > > >>>>>>>>> Macquarie University > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> > > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object > > > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > From ddirlam@changingwisdoms.com Sat Oct 22 09:10:43 2016 From: ddirlam@changingwisdoms.com (ddirlam@changingwisdoms.com) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 09:10:43 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analytic/synthetic Message-ID: <20161022091043.8baa08539fb3f284c5d64728aac1124e.5aec02533c.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Sat Oct 22 12:50:58 2016 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 19:50:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Mike, i've been thinking about your comments regarding second language acquisition - you wrote: Note, in our own published work on the acquisition of reading we adopt a developmental model of the process. To tell the truth, the whole process felt like a crisis for us and the kids, but qualitative change, and new modes of diagnosis, emerged. Both microgenetically (in a day's interactions) and in the ontogeny of the child as the new form of behavior spread and solidified. I have access to articles in Soviet Psychology/Journal of Russian Psychology if the requisite materials are not already in your hands. Seems like a place where questions of theory and questions of practice come together. David has been teaching L2 for a long time. Others, like Phillip, are teachers in schools where students are highly varied in their acquisition of English. thinking back on my working with students who spoke spanish as their first language, and were learning english as their second language, within a public school setting where the institutional goal was "standard academic english", i'd say that my theoretical guidance came from James Moffett, his Teaching The Universe of Discourse, which i learned about in the early 70's, and L. Vygotsky readings, and Marie Clay, she developed Reading Recovery with the emphasis on inner control (which she based on Vygotsky) who i learned about in the very late 80's. although, working with students from the ages of 5 or 6, through ages 10 or 11, whose first language was spanish, while using Clay's instructional techniques, i realised that Clay was using a child's first language strengths to learn to read in her first language. So, instead of beginning a lesson with a text that a child was unfamiliar with (with a picture walk, so that the child could deduct what the story was about based on the pictures, with my english language learners i would begin with both a picture walk as well as read aloud the text, because the second language learner could not depend on an internal understanding of the syntax and grammar of english to anticipate the up-coming word. (Does it make sense? Does it sound right? Does it look right?) over time, which was highly individual, change emerged. sometimes there were weeks long plateaus, and other times i was astonished by the speed of an individual learner. as Gregory Bateson points out, human beings are not billiard balls. you can't accurately predict what they will do next. you can make approximations. also, of invaluable guidance from Clay was her admonition to always give the child the benefit of the doubt as to the 'correctness' of a response, as well as recognising approximations as a strength to build upon. and, by the way, i also learned that working with first language english speakers, that often children who were raised in poverty as well as social chaos and unpredictability, needed practically the same kinds of supports in learning to read and write as did second language learners. i could go on and on about this subject, but ..... phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 6:40:20 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? David & Arturo. You lost me you got to AA Leontiev, David. Which of his writings on the organization of language learning activity can I find that he denied crises in development. In principle, such ideas should show up in flaws in his methodology. How does that work? I have read more than I have forgotten, but I would like to see how this issue influences the pedagogy. Maybe you would be interested in helping us identify texts, Arturo. Note, in our own published work on the acquisition of reading we adopt a developmental model of the process. To tell the truth, the whole process felt like a crisis for us and the kids, but qualitative change, and new modes of diagnosis, emerged. Both microgenetically (in a day's interactions) and in the ontogeny of the child as the new form of behavior spread and solidified. I have access to articles in Soviet Psychology/Journal of Russian Psychology if the requisite materials are not already in your hands. Seems like a place where questions of theory and questions of practice come together. David has been teaching L2 for a long time. Others, like Phillip, are teachers in schools where students are highly varied in their acquisition of English. A lot of others on xmca could also describe (or deny the presence of ) crises that arise when there is a qualitative shift in L1-->L2 students. I seemed to go through distinct stages, qualitative shifts, in the acquisition of spoken and written Russian. I acquired the ability to speak more quickly than to write. Reading was the refuge where I had to figure out what people had been saying in the seminar from written texts. I do not remember any moment of crisis (except that of a dumb, dangerous, foreigner, newby) when I became qualitatively different. My best evidence that it was a qualitative shift is that my wife, who went through all these events with me, does not like my personality when I spoke Russian to this day. :~) It would be totally neat to find convergence around AA Leontiev here that could generate a classic article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity.* mike On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 2:39 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Arturo: > > Yes, exactly! As soon as we ripped applied linguistics out of linguistics, > we started down a path of social-behaviourism. The result is, as you say, > that L2 teaching has become behavioristic and na?ve in the extreme. > > Although, as you'll see from the other posting I wrote today, I think it's > important to stress how different learning is from development, I also > think that one thing that all forms of genetic change have (phylo-, socio-, > onto- and micro-) is the crisis: crises are simply inherent in the process > of development itself, because at some point the process of development > turns back on itself and the means of development itself develops. That's > why Vygotsky speaks of "cycles of development". > > The problem with both Leontievs (A.A. and A.L.) is that they were committed > to demonstrating that development could take place without crises. I think > this was a political commitment, linked to Stalin's declaration of the end > of history. It is always a mistake to declare that history is at an end: > that is one of the main differences between sociogenesis and ontogenesis. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Arturo Escandon < > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Dear David, > > > > I am laughing load about your exchange with Mike. > > > > Of course I do not discard microgenetic processes at all. Perhaps my > > "unfortunately" comes from the fact that L2 teaching continuous to be > > so behaviorist and naive. SLA advocates try to go round the notion of > > input-output unsuccessfully. These conditions influence my research as > > any social or production condition does. It is as if one could not > > abstract of the institutional object set for "learning". > > > > What I have done is base my approach on A.A. Leontiev notions of > > speech activity vis a vis communication activity to determine at least > > four stages that a learner with no knowledge of a L2 must go through > > to master it. Those I renamed substructural, structural, functional > > and rhetorical stages. They all differ in the object of the activity. > > But none of these stages is reached by one single learning activity. > > So no microgenetic process can "trigger" mastery. On the contrary, > > learners need to go through many learning tasks until they develop > > comprehensive conceptual models for each stage. The developments of > > those models run against their very understanding of their own L1. It > > is hard to grasp the actual genesis of that development for the stages > > cannot be clearly separated one another and because instructions is > > distributed. You see, learners learn grammar with L1 speakers and > > conversation with L2 speakers in more or less chaotic and asystematic > > learning settings. > > > > The question is how one can deal with zones which do not have an age > > crisis that help distinguishing one from the next. Risking deforming > > the notion of zoped,I still prefer to have some kind of developmental > > targets and stages rather than basing instruction on an endless chain > > of learning tasks just to fill teaching time. > > > > Thanks for providing those Russian excerpts. > > > > All the best. > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > On 18 October 2016 at 09:33, David Kellogg wrote: > > > Arturo: > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also be > a > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > evolution > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer than I > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good > > idea > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for "development" > > and > > > not for learning. > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the > what > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we are > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an interpersonal > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very often > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > > nothing > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > > Thirdly, > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before we > > go > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > > teaching > > > needs. > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", > > part > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > Collected > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > > ???????? > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > ???????????, > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????????? > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > > grouped > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > Consequently, > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > appointed > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > afterwards > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral lines > > of > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > > critical > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, > i.e. > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the child's > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > development, > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and learning. > > He > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid > it: > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie > that > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need > to > > do > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > . > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Thank you for this David. > > >> > > >> I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > >> > > >> Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > >> significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > >> assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > >> ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning component > > >> for sure. > > >> > > >> My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to go > > >> beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of development > > >> in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > >> interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > > >> and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > > >> doing large longitudinal studies. > > >> > > >> I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature presents > > >> many problems. > > >> > > >> > > >> Arturo > > >> > > >> > > >> On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > >> > Arturo: > > >> > > > >> > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > about. > > >> > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think there > > are > > >> > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of > the > > >> ZPD. > > >> > > > >> > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > think > > the > > >> > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > > picked > > >> up > > >> > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of development". > > But > > >> > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > hasn't > > >> been > > >> > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > > >> > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by the > > >> child > > >> > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just too > > >> > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > > there > > >> > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > >> > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > lectures, > > but > > >> > these haven't been translated yet). > > >> > > > >> > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > interesting > > >> to > > >> > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological lectures: > > >> > > > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > >> lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > >> > > > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > >> > > > >> > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > 1998: > > >> > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > > "test" > > >> > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > > >> > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > >> nonsense. > > >> > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > >> > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > infinitely > > >> > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > mediation, > > >> can > > >> > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from > its > > >> > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > >> > > > >> > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > > >> > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function > MUST > > be > > >> > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. > One > > >> > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply that > > the > > >> > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second > does > > >> not. > > >> > The functional explanation is that the first has the right > functional > > >> > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while > the > > >> other > > >> > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > >> > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means that > > they > > >> > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole lot > > >> easier > > >> > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > future > > >> are > > >> > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > inversion > > >> > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future is > > >> > intrinsically non-determinable. > > >> > > > >> > David Kellogg > > >> > Macquarie University > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > >> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> David, > > >> >> > > >> >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot a > > >> >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > urbanistic > > >> >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no longer > > >> >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to that > > >> >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual challenge > > of > > >> >> oral utterances. > > >> >> > > >> >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > >> >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words > when > > >> >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > >> >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > >> >> > > >> >> Best > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Arturo Escand?n > > >> >> > > >> >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > >> >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > >> linguistics or > > >> >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > sociogenetic, > > >> >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > > article > > >> on > > >> >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it would > > help > > >> us > > >> >> to > > >> >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > microgenetic > > >> >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > around > > >> when > > >> >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > constant > > >> >> feature > > >> >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > associated > > >> with > > >> >> the > > >> >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > > doesn't > > >> use > > >> >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > Lewin, > > >> >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to use > > the > > >> >> term > > >> >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > psychology > > >> and > > >> >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > denounces > > >> >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > >> Psychoneurology". I > > >> >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates external > > >> >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls > his > > >> >> "micro" > > >> >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > >> biological, > > >> >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > >> particular > > >> >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > >> fidelity > > >> >> and > > >> >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she sees > > that > > >> >> her > > >> >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > meaning. > > >> But > > >> >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > > specific > > >> >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis > is > > >> what > > >> >> you > > >> >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > > reading > > >> >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > >> >> > > > >> >> > David Kellogg > > >> >> > Macquarie University > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Oct 23 17:21:29 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 17:21:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Phillip-- Your experience seems invaluable in such a discussion. For example, i* would begin with both a picture walk as well as read aloud the text, because the second language learner could not depend on an internal understanding of the syntax and grammar of english to anticipate the up-coming word. (Does it make sense? Does it sound right? Does it look right?) over time, which was highly individual, change emerged. sometimes there were weeks long plateaus, and other times i was astonished by the speed of an individual learner.* This description reads like an alternation of period of "lithic" change interspersed with periods of rapid reorganization that LSV uses to describe stage/phase transitions. And of course when/if kids make a transition is unpredictable in individual cases..... its an emergent process with no fixed end point, after all. I have no idea if this is the sort of pattern that Arturo sees or if the ideas of AA Leontiev are of any use. David reports that Leontiev's focus on the organization of activity in bilingual instruction was restricted mostly to movie watching and adults, and may not qualify for the discussion on those grounds. Is that your understanding Arturo? Our own work was focused on 4th-5th graders who had failed to learn to read for meaning. A number were fixated on getting the code right, others displayed a variety of difficulties. The group re-mediating reading activities that Peg Griffin dreamed up seemed to work well for this group of kids, both diagnostically and in terms of arranging for the kids to discover what it means to read for meaning. Your last observation, that the same procedures that appear effective for Spanish speakers to acquire written English and poor kids trying to accomplish the same goal seems very important. Do you reckon a common underlying set of barriers? Given the current fascination with the "word gap" in exposure to oral language as a function of social class, the issue seems worth careful attention. My own focus in this discussion remains an interest in whether microgenetic *development* (qualitative reorganization) is a real phenomenon or a chimera as David has been arguing. So far I have no sense of agreement on this issue. Not even for the example of Franklin in the blocks. THAT discussion, presumably, will go on in thread on microgenesis/ontogenesis (I know, good luck in keeping the threads untangled) In this connection I have been re-thinking the idea in LSV that one step in instruction/learning can produce two steps in development. Somehow microgenesis and ontogenesis seems impolicated in such an optimistic claim. My mind goes to Gestalt psychologists in trying to think about it. mike On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 12:50 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > Mike, i've been thinking about your comments regarding second language > acquisition - you wrote: > > > Note, in our own published work on the acquisition of reading we adopt a > developmental model of the process. To tell the truth, the whole process > felt like a crisis for us and the kids, but qualitative change, and new > modes of diagnosis, emerged. Both microgenetically (in a day's > interactions) and in the ontogeny of the child as the new form of behavior > spread and solidified. > > I have access to articles in Soviet Psychology/Journal of Russian > Psychology if the requisite materials are not already in your hands. > > Seems like a place where questions of theory and questions of practice come > together. David has been teaching L2 for a long time. Others, like Phillip, > are teachers in schools where students are highly varied in their > acquisition of English. > > > thinking back on my working with students who spoke spanish as their first > language, and were learning english as their second language, within a > public school setting where the institutional goal was "standard academic > english", i'd say that my theoretical guidance came from James Moffett, his > Teaching The Universe of Discourse, which i learned about in the early > 70's, and L. Vygotsky readings, and Marie Clay, she developed Reading > Recovery with the emphasis on inner control (which she based on Vygotsky) > who i learned about in the very late 80's. > > > although, working with students from the ages of 5 or 6, through ages 10 > or 11, whose first language was spanish, while using Clay's instructional > techniques, i realised that Clay was using a child's first language > strengths to learn to read in her first language. So, instead of beginning > a lesson with a text that a child was unfamiliar with (with a picture walk, > so that the child could deduct what the story was about based on the > pictures, with my english language learners i would begin with both a > picture walk as well as read aloud the text, because the second language > learner could not depend on an internal understanding of the syntax and > grammar of english to anticipate the up-coming word. (Does it make sense? > Does it sound right? Does it look right?) over time, which was highly > individual, change emerged. sometimes there were weeks long plateaus, and > other times i was astonished by the speed of an individual learner. > > > as Gregory Bateson points out, human beings are not billiard balls. you > can't accurately predict what they will do next. you can make > approximations. > > > also, of invaluable guidance from Clay was her admonition to always give > the child the benefit of the doubt as to the 'correctness' of a response, > as well as recognising approximations as a strength to build upon. > > > and, by the way, i also learned that working with first language english > speakers, that often children who were raised in poverty as well as social > chaos and unpredictability, needed practically the same kinds of supports > in learning to read and write as did second language learners. > > > i could go on and on about this subject, but ..... > > > phillip > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 6:40:20 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why Doesn't Vygotsky Use "Microgenesis"? > > David & Arturo. You lost me you got to AA Leontiev, > David. Which of his writings on the organization of language learning > activity can I find that he denied crises in development. In principle, > such ideas should show up in flaws in his methodology. How does that work? > > I have read more than I have forgotten, but I would like to see how this > issue influences the pedagogy. > > Maybe you would be interested in helping us identify texts, Arturo. > > Note, in our own published work on the acquisition of reading we adopt a > developmental model of the process. To tell the truth, the whole process > felt like a crisis for us and the kids, but qualitative change, and new > modes of diagnosis, emerged. Both microgenetically (in a day's > interactions) and in the ontogeny of the child as the new form of behavior > spread and solidified. > > I have access to articles in Soviet Psychology/Journal of Russian > Psychology if the requisite materials are not already in your hands. > > Seems like a place where questions of theory and questions of practice come > together. David has been teaching L2 for a long time. Others, like Phillip, > are teachers in schools where students are highly varied in their > acquisition of English. > > A lot of others on xmca could also describe (or deny the presence of ) > crises that arise when there is a qualitative shift in L1-->L2 students. I > seemed to go through distinct stages, qualitative shifts, in the > acquisition of spoken and written Russian. I acquired the ability to speak > more quickly than to write. Reading was the refuge where I had to figure > out what people had been saying in the seminar from written texts. I do not > remember any moment of crisis (except that of a dumb, dangerous, foreigner, > newby) when I became qualitatively different. My best evidence that it was > a qualitative shift is that my wife, who went through all these events with > me, does not like my personality when I spoke Russian to this day. :~) > > It would be totally neat to find convergence around AA Leontiev here that > could generate a classic article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity.* > > mike > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 2:39 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Arturo: > > > > Yes, exactly! As soon as we ripped applied linguistics out of > linguistics, > > we started down a path of social-behaviourism. The result is, as you say, > > that L2 teaching has become behavioristic and na?ve in the extreme. > > > > Although, as you'll see from the other posting I wrote today, I think > it's > > important to stress how different learning is from development, I also > > think that one thing that all forms of genetic change have (phylo-, > socio-, > > onto- and micro-) is the crisis: crises are simply inherent in the > process > > of development itself, because at some point the process of development > > turns back on itself and the means of development itself develops. That's > > why Vygotsky speaks of "cycles of development". > > > > The problem with both Leontievs (A.A. and A.L.) is that they were > committed > > to demonstrating that development could take place without crises. I > think > > this was a political commitment, linked to Stalin's declaration of the > end > > of history. It is always a mistake to declare that history is at an end: > > that is one of the main differences between sociogenesis and ontogenesis. > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Dear David, > > > > > > I am laughing load about your exchange with Mike. > > > > > > Of course I do not discard microgenetic processes at all. Perhaps my > > > "unfortunately" comes from the fact that L2 teaching continuous to be > > > so behaviorist and naive. SLA advocates try to go round the notion of > > > input-output unsuccessfully. These conditions influence my research as > > > any social or production condition does. It is as if one could not > > > abstract of the institutional object set for "learning". > > > > > > What I have done is base my approach on A.A. Leontiev notions of > > > speech activity vis a vis communication activity to determine at least > > > four stages that a learner with no knowledge of a L2 must go through > > > to master it. Those I renamed substructural, structural, functional > > > and rhetorical stages. They all differ in the object of the activity. > > > But none of these stages is reached by one single learning activity. > > > So no microgenetic process can "trigger" mastery. On the contrary, > > > learners need to go through many learning tasks until they develop > > > comprehensive conceptual models for each stage. The developments of > > > those models run against their very understanding of their own L1. It > > > is hard to grasp the actual genesis of that development for the stages > > > cannot be clearly separated one another and because instructions is > > > distributed. You see, learners learn grammar with L1 speakers and > > > conversation with L2 speakers in more or less chaotic and asystematic > > > learning settings. > > > > > > The question is how one can deal with zones which do not have an age > > > crisis that help distinguishing one from the next. Risking deforming > > > the notion of zoped,I still prefer to have some kind of developmental > > > targets and stages rather than basing instruction on an endless chain > > > of learning tasks just to fill teaching time. > > > > > > Thanks for providing those Russian excerpts. > > > > > > All the best. > > > > > > > > > Arturo > > > > > > > > > On 18 October 2016 at 09:33, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > > Arturo: > > > > > > > > Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I think the only word I might > > > > possibly disagree with is "unfortunately". I suppose there may also > be > > a > > > > "zone of proximal learning", just as there is a zone of proximal > > > evolution > > > > (I suspect, given the mass extinctions which are going on in the > > > > Anthropocene, that we are in one of these at present), and a zone of > > > > proximal social progress (these have turned out to be far longer > than I > > > > ever thought as a young person). But I think for now it's a very good > > > idea > > > > to focus on the D in ZPD, and not to forget that it's for > "development" > > > and > > > > not for learning. > > > > > > > > Let me give three reasons. First of all, if we are interested in the > > what > > > > word value looks like when we remove the sound that realizes it, we > are > > > > necessarily interested in a psychological rather than an > interpersonal > > > > phenomenon. Secondly, the focus on quick results in learning very > often > > > > ends up victimizing teachers for problems in development that have > > > nothing > > > > to do with teaching methods and are really developmentally rooted. > > > Thirdly, > > > > just as we need to understand exactly what teachers are doing before > we > > > go > > > > about introducing interested changes, we also need to understand what > > > > Vygotsky was trying to do before we decide it is irrelevant to our > > > teaching > > > > needs. > > > > > > > > This morning I was working on the beginning of the "Crisis at Three", > > > part > > > > of which (but not the good part) can be read in Vol. Five of the > > > Collected > > > > Works in English (Vol. Four in Russian): > > > > > > > > ??-??????, ?? ?????? ????????????, ??? ??? ????????, ??? ???????, > > > > ????????????? ? ?????? ????? ???????, ???????????? ?????? ??????-???? > > > > ??????????????? ??????????? ????. ?????????????, ????? ?? ????? > > > > ????????????? ???????? ???????, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????????????? > > > ???????? > > > > ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ????????? ? ????????? ????? ? ?????? ?????? > > > > ???????????????, ??????? ???????? ????? ????. ????? ?? ?????? > > > ???????????, > > > > ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????????. ? > > > > ???????, ??????? ??????????? ??????? ? ????? ?????? ???? ??? > ?????????? > > > > ????????, ?. ?. ????????? ? ?????????? ????????. > > > > "Firstly, we must presume that all of the transformations, all the > > > > happenings, that take place during the period of the crisis may be > > > grouped > > > > around some sort of neoformation of the transitional type. > > Consequently, > > > > when we analyse the symptoms of the crisis, we must at the very least > > > > presume to answer the question of what newness emerges at this > > appointed > > > > time and what the fate of these neoformations which disappear > > afterwards > > > > might be. Next, we should consider how the central and peripheral > lines > > > of > > > > development here will unfold. And lastly, we ought to evaluate the > > > critical > > > > age from the point of view of the zone of its proximal development, > > i.e. > > > > its relationship to the subsequent age." > > > > > > > > > > > > "The zone of its proximal development" is its relationship to the > > > > subsequent age! Almost by definition, if you present some > > > > pedagogical intervention and it immediately becomes part of the > child's > > > > psychological system, you are looking at the zone of actual > > development, > > > > and not the zone of proximal development at all. > > > > > > > > Years ago, I told Mike that I kept mixing up microgenesis and > learning. > > > He > > > > told me "Don't do that!" but he didn't exactly spell out how to avoid > > it: > > > > instead, he arranged for me to review a book on Ganzheitpsychologie > > that > > > > left me more confused than ever. So I think that's still what we need > > to > > > do > > > > now: but one way to start is simply to kick learning out of the ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > . > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Arturo Escandon < > > > arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Thank you for this David. > > > >> > > > >> I agree with what you are saying at many levels. > > > >> > > > >> Unfortunately, the kind of assessment I introduced did not have > > > >> significant learning components. So the evaluation part of the > > > >> assessment is not giving me much data about microgenesis but about > > > >> ontogenesis. The "outcome" is not the result of the learning > component > > > >> for sure. > > > >> > > > >> My bet is that the links between L1 and L2 (which allow students to > go > > > >> beyond sound perception of words) are possible because of > development > > > >> in high school. More to do with L1 development. Again, the kind of > > > >> interventions I am allowed to make in the classroom are very narrow > > > >> and the structure and shape of the study programme prevents me from > > > >> doing large longitudinal studies. > > > >> > > > >> I agree the notion of DA as it is used in the SLA literature > presents > > > >> many problems. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Arturo > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 11 October 2016 at 05:17, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > >> > Arturo: > > > >> > > > > >> > Dynamic assessment is a really good example of what I'm talking > > about. > > > >> > Dynamic assessment is supposedly based on the ZPD. But I think > there > > > are > > > >> > three linked ways in which it is actually based on a distortion of > > the > > > >> ZPD. > > > >> > > > > >> > a) Dynamic assessment looks at microgenesis, not ontogenesis. I > > think > > > the > > > >> > idea was originally that the microgenetic perturbations that were > > > picked > > > >> up > > > >> > in DA were, actually, predictive of the "next zone of > development". > > > But > > > >> > there are two reasons why this has not happened. Firstly, there > > hasn't > > > >> been > > > >> > a clear demarcation between learning and development, and the idea > > > >> > that what the child can do today with assistance will be done by > the > > > >> child > > > >> > independently tomorrow--literally, in twenty-four hours--is just > too > > > >> > attractive to people like Matt Poehner and Jim Lantolf. Secondly, > > > there > > > >> > hasn't been a clear scheme for figuring out what the next zone of > > > >> > development really is (it's there in Vygotsky's pedological > > lectures, > > > but > > > >> > these haven't been translated yet). > > > >> > > > > >> > b) Dynamic assessment is "dynamic" and not diagnostic. It's > > > interesting > > > >> to > > > >> > compare the two Russian versions of Vygotsky's pedological > lectures: > > > >> > > > > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/pedologia/ > > > >> lektsii-po-pedologii.pdf > > > >> > > > > >> > https://www.marxists.org/russkij/vygotsky/cw/pdf/vol4.pdf > > > >> > > > > >> > Compare 2001: 191 with 1984: 260 (and also the English version, > > 1998: > > > >> > 199!). It's not just that the Russian editors insist on replacing > > > "test" > > > >> > with "task"--it's that they consistently replace "diagnostic" with > > > >> > "dynamic", even where this leads to redundant headings and total > > > >> nonsense. > > > >> > Why? Well, because in the Soviet scheme of things, the ZPD is NOT > > > >> > diagnostic: it's dynamic. That means that a personality is > > infinitely > > > >> > malleable and tomorrow's development, with the right kind of > > > mediation, > > > >> can > > > >> > become today's. This is something that DA has largely adopted from > > its > > > >> > Soviet roots....but it's not Vygotsky. > > > >> > > > > >> > c) As a result DA has to reject the core of Vygotsky's method: for > > > >> > Vygotsky, structure is to be explained by function, but function > > MUST > > > be > > > >> > explained by history, by development. Suppose I have two children. > > One > > > >> > learns, the other doesn't. The structural explanation is simply > that > > > the > > > >> > first one has the right mental structures to learn and the second > > does > > > >> not. > > > >> > The functional explanation is that the first has the right > > functional > > > >> > motivation (putative career, middle class aspirations, etc) while > > the > > > >> other > > > >> > does not. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of learning > > > >> > difficulties really are developmental. I don't think that means > that > > > they > > > >> > are destiny. But I do think it means that prevention is a whole > lot > > > >> easier > > > >> > than cure. In DA, development is Markovian: the present and the > > future > > > >> are > > > >> > linked causally--but not the past and the present: it's a weird > > > inversion > > > >> > of Aristotle's belief that the past was determined but the future > is > > > >> > intrinsically non-determinable. > > > >> > > > > >> > David Kellogg > > > >> > Macquarie University > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Arturo Escandon < > > > >> arturo.escandon@gmail.com> > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >> David, > > > >> >> > > > >> >> In my research about dynamic assessment I have been able to spot > a > > > >> >> moment students reorganise L1 and L2 concepts (related to > > urbanistic > > > >> >> and architectural city features) in such a way that they no > longer > > > >> >> "perceive" the sounds of words. Students who do not arrive to > that > > > >> >> reorganisation are not able to escape from the perceptual > challenge > > > of > > > >> >> oral utterances. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> The first group of students tend to mediate their linguistic > > > >> >> production either in ideograms or Spanish-alphabet written words > > when > > > >> >> asked to take notes. The second group tend to use the Japanese > > > >> >> syllabic system to transliterate sounds. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Best > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Arturo Escand?n > > > >> >> > > > >> >> On 9 October 2016 at 07:21, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > >> >> > When I read materials on Vygotsky, particularly in applied > > > >> linguistics or > > > >> >> > TESOL, I always get the "four timescales" (phylogenetic, > > > sociogenetic, > > > >> >> > ontogenetic, and microgenetic) from Mescharyakov's wonderful > > > article > > > >> on > > > >> >> > Vygotsky's terminology. At first, in the vain hope that it > would > > > help > > > >> us > > > >> >> to > > > >> >> > distinguish better between ontogenetic development and > > microgenetic > > > >> >> > learning, I used this myself (see Song and Kellogg 2011). > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Now I think that was a mistake. The term "microgenesis" was > > around > > > >> when > > > >> >> > Vygotsky was alive and he certainly knew about it: it's a > > constant > > > >> >> feature > > > >> >> > of Gestaltist studies of perception. It's also strongly > > associated > > > >> with > > > >> >> the > > > >> >> > Nazi psychology of Leipzig. Vygotsky knows about the term and > > > doesn't > > > >> use > > > >> >> > it, and I think he's got good reasons. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Even where LSV agrees with the Gestaltists (Kohler, Koffka, > > Lewin, > > > >> >> > Wertheimer, Selz--they weren't all Nazis!) he doesn't seem to > use > > > the > > > >> >> term > > > >> >> > microgenesis. And actually, he's quite interested in Nazi > > > psychology > > > >> and > > > >> >> > not afraid to quote it, although he bitterly, scathingly, > > denounces > > > >> >> > Jaensch, Krueger, Ach, Kroh and others in "Fascism in > > > >> Psychoneurology". I > > > >> >> > think he doesn't use "microgenesis" because it conflates > external > > > >> >> > perception with perceiving meaning. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Halliday, who also uses "phylogenetic" and "ontogenetic", calls > > his > > > >> >> "micro" > > > >> >> > scale logogenesis: the creation of semantics (as opposed to > > > >> biological, > > > >> >> > social, or psychological semiosis). Take Zaza's article. At a > > > >> particular > > > >> >> > point, the participants become uninterested in perceptual high > > > >> fidelity > > > >> >> and > > > >> >> > much more interested in meaning--what will Gogo think if she > sees > > > that > > > >> >> her > > > >> >> > daughter-in-law is using mechanical means for nursing? > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Of course, semantic meaning is always linked to perceptual > > meaning. > > > >> But > > > >> >> > "linked" never means equal or mutual or fully reciprocal: the > > > specific > > > >> >> > weight is first on one side and then on the other. Microgenesis > > is > > > >> what > > > >> >> you > > > >> >> > get in eye tests, and logogenesis is what you get when you are > > > reading > > > >> >> > Zaza's article (and when you are reading this post). > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > David Kellogg > > > >> >> > Macquarie University > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk Sun Oct 23 09:22:36 2016 From: C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk (C Barker) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 16:22:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?windows-1252?q?Manchester_Social_Movements_conference=2C_April?= =?windows-1252?q?_2017_=96_call_for_papers?= Message-ID: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D66827588001DFC1FDF1@exmb2> SOCIAL MOVEMENTS CONFERENCE - CALL FOR PAPERS >From 1995 to 2016, Manchester Metropolitan University hosted a series of very successful annual international conferences on 'ALTERNATIVE FUTURES and POPULAR PROTEST'. We're very happy to announce that the Twenty Second AF&PP Conference will be held between Monday 10th and Wednesday 12th April 2017. The Conference rubric will remain as in previous years. The aim is to explore the dynamics of popular movements, along with the ideas which animate their activists and supporters and which contribute to shaping their fate. Reflecting the inherent cross-disciplinary nature of the issues, previous participants (from over 60 countries) have come from such specialisms as sociology, politics, cultural studies, social psychology, economics, history and geography. The Manchester conferences have been notable for discovering a fruitful and friendly meeting ground between activism and academia. PRELIMINARY CALL FOR PAPERS We invite offers of papers relevant to the conference themes. Papers should address such matters as: * contemporary and historical social movements and popular protests * social movement theory * utopias and experiments * ideologies of collective action * etc. To offer a paper, please contact either of the conference convenors with a brief abstract: EITHER Colin Barker, email: c.barker@mmu.ac.uk OR Mike Tyldesley, Politics Section, HPP, Manchester Metropolitan University Geoffrey Manton Building, Rosamond Street West Manchester M15 6LL, England Tel: M. Tyldesley 0161 247 3460 email: m.tyldesley@mmu.ac.uk Fax: 0161 247 6769 (+44 161 247 6769) (Wherever possible, please use email, especially as Colin Barker is a retired gent. Surface mail and faxes should only be addressed to Mike Tyldesley) CONFERENCE PAPERS One way we organise this particular conference is that we ask those giving papers to supply them in advance, for inclusion in a Dropbox folder of the complete papers which will be available to all delegates from the conference opening. * Preferred method: send the paper to Colin Barker as an email attachment in MS Word or .pdf format. Any separate illustrations etc. should be sent separately, in .jpg format. * if this is impossible, post a copy of the text to Mike Tyldesley on a CD disk in MS Word or .pdf format * Final date for receipt of abstracts: Monday 20th March February 2017 * Final date for receipt of actual papers: Friday 31st March 2017 These are final dates. The earlier we receive abstracts, and actual papers, the better. CONFERENCE ARRANGEMENTS AND COSTS The conference will run from lunch-time Monday 10th April until after lunch on Wednesday 12th April 2017. The conference cost will be inclusive of three lunches, teas/coffees. The full cost is ?145.00, with a cost of ?85.00 for students and the unwaged. Please register online at https://www.kxregistration.mmu.ac.uk/alternativefutures2017 Hotels, hostels and dining out We can supply information about relatively cheap local hotels and hostels. Let us know if you would like this information. We cannot do hotel or hostel bookings for you. Conference participants will be invited to dine together at two local (and not too expensive) restaurants on the two conference evenings. Payment for dinners should not be made in advance, but directly to the restaurants on the night. Please feel free to circulate this to anyone who might be interested. Colin Barker Mike Tyldesley "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Oct 23 20:02:04 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 20:02:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Manchester_Social_Movements_conference=2C_April_201?= =?utf-8?q?7_=E2=80=93_call_for_papers?= In-Reply-To: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D66827588001DFC1FDF1@exmb2> References: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D66827588001DFC1FDF1@exmb2> Message-ID: Looks fascinating and timely, Colin -- So many interesting categories/problematics to consider all in one place! Will there be some kind of digital outreach? mike On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 9:22 AM, C Barker wrote: > SOCIAL MOVEMENTS CONFERENCE - CALL FOR PAPERS > > > > >From 1995 to 2016, Manchester Metropolitan University hosted a series of > very successful annual international conferences on 'ALTERNATIVE FUTURES > and POPULAR PROTEST'. > > > > We're very happy to announce that the Twenty Second AF&PP Conference will > be held between Monday 10th and Wednesday 12th April 2017. > > > > The Conference rubric will remain as in previous years. The aim is to > explore the dynamics of popular movements, along with the ideas which > animate their activists and supporters and which contribute to shaping > their fate. > > > > Reflecting the inherent cross-disciplinary nature of the issues, previous > participants (from over 60 countries) have come from such specialisms as > sociology, politics, cultural studies, social psychology, economics, > history and geography. The Manchester conferences have been notable for > discovering a fruitful and friendly meeting ground between activism and > academia. > > > > PRELIMINARY CALL FOR PAPERS > > > > We invite offers of papers relevant to the conference themes. Papers > should address such matters as: > > > > * contemporary and historical social movements and popular protests > > > > * social movement theory > > > > * utopias and experiments > > > > * ideologies of collective action > > > > * etc. > > > > To offer a paper, please contact either of the conference convenors with a > brief abstract: > > > > EITHER Colin Barker, > > email: c.barker@mmu.ac.uk > > OR Mike Tyldesley, Politics Section, HPP, > > Manchester Metropolitan University > > Geoffrey Manton Building, Rosamond Street West > > Manchester M15 6LL, England > > Tel: M. Tyldesley 0161 247 3460 > > email: m.tyldesley@mmu.ac.uk > > Fax: 0161 247 6769 (+44 161 247 6769) > > (Wherever possible, please use email, especially as Colin Barker is a > retired gent. Surface mail and faxes should only be addressed to Mike > Tyldesley) > > > > CONFERENCE PAPERS > > > > One way we organise this particular conference is that we ask those giving > papers to supply them in advance, for inclusion in a Dropbox folder of the > complete papers which will be available to all delegates from the > conference opening. > > > > * Preferred method: send the paper to Colin Barker as an email attachment > in MS Word or .pdf format. Any separate illustrations etc. should be sent > separately, in .jpg format. > > > > * if this is impossible, post a copy of the text to Mike Tyldesley on a CD > disk in MS Word or .pdf format > > > > * Final date for receipt of abstracts: Monday 20th March February 2017 > > > > * Final date for receipt of actual papers: Friday 31st March 2017 > > > > These are final dates. The earlier we receive abstracts, and actual > papers, the better. > > > > > > CONFERENCE ARRANGEMENTS AND COSTS > > > > The conference will run from lunch-time Monday 10th April until after > lunch on Wednesday 12th April 2017. > > > > The conference cost will be inclusive of three lunches, teas/coffees. The > full cost is ?145.00, with a cost of ?85.00 for students and the unwaged. > Please register online at https://www.kxregistration.mmu.ac.uk/ > alternativefutures2017 > > > > Hotels, hostels and dining out > > > We can supply information about relatively cheap local hotels and hostels. > Let us know if you would like this information. > > > We cannot do hotel or hostel bookings for you. > > > > Conference participants will be invited to dine together at two local (and > not too expensive) restaurants on the two conference evenings. Payment for > dinners should not be made in advance, but directly to the restaurants on > the night. > > > > Please feel free to circulate this to anyone who might be interested. > > > > Colin Barker > > Mike Tyldesley > > > > "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read > the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its > website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " > From C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk Mon Oct 24 03:26:36 2016 From: C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk (C Barker) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 10:26:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?windows-1252?q?Manchester_Social_Movements_conference=2C_Ap?= =?windows-1252?q?ril_2017_=96_call_for_papers?= In-Reply-To: References: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D66827588001DFC1FDF1@exmb2>, Message-ID: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D66827588001DFC1FF9F@exmb2> We're deeply digitally incompetent, so I'm not even sure what 'digital outreach' might mean. We did, though, manage to have Andy Blunden present a talk via Skype last year. What's missing from digital linkages, though, is the *conversation* in the pub and over food and coffee that is part of the productive work of conferences. I missed *chatting* with Andy. Colin ________________________________ From: lchcmike@gmail.com [lchcmike@gmail.com] on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu] Sent: 24 October 2016 04:02 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: C Barker Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Manchester Social Movements conference, April 2017 ? call for papers Looks fascinating and timely, Colin -- So many interesting categories/problematics to consider all in one place! Will there be some kind of digital outreach? mike On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 9:22 AM, C Barker > wrote: SOCIAL MOVEMENTS CONFERENCE - CALL FOR PAPERS >From 1995 to 2016, Manchester Metropolitan University hosted a series of very successful annual international conferences on 'ALTERNATIVE FUTURES and POPULAR PROTEST'. We're very happy to announce that the Twenty Second AF&PP Conference will be held between Monday 10th and Wednesday 12th April 2017. The Conference rubric will remain as in previous years. The aim is to explore the dynamics of popular movements, along with the ideas which animate their activists and supporters and which contribute to shaping their fate. Reflecting the inherent cross-disciplinary nature of the issues, previous participants (from over 60 countries) have come from such specialisms as sociology, politics, cultural studies, social psychology, economics, history and geography. The Manchester conferences have been notable for discovering a fruitful and friendly meeting ground between activism and academia. PRELIMINARY CALL FOR PAPERS We invite offers of papers relevant to the conference themes. Papers should address such matters as: * contemporary and historical social movements and popular protests * social movement theory * utopias and experiments * ideologies of collective action * etc. To offer a paper, please contact either of the conference convenors with a brief abstract: EITHER Colin Barker, email: c.barker@mmu.ac.uk OR Mike Tyldesley, Politics Section, HPP, Manchester Metropolitan University Geoffrey Manton Building, Rosamond Street West Manchester M15 6LL, England Tel: M. Tyldesley 0161 247 3460 email: m.tyldesley@mmu.ac.uk Fax: 0161 247 6769 (+44 161 247 6769) (Wherever possible, please use email, especially as Colin Barker is a retired gent. Surface mail and faxes should only be addressed to Mike Tyldesley) CONFERENCE PAPERS One way we organise this particular conference is that we ask those giving papers to supply them in advance, for inclusion in a Dropbox folder of the complete papers which will be available to all delegates from the conference opening. * Preferred method: send the paper to Colin Barker as an email attachment in MS Word or .pdf format. Any separate illustrations etc. should be sent separately, in .jpg format. * if this is impossible, post a copy of the text to Mike Tyldesley on a CD disk in MS Word or .pdf format * Final date for receipt of abstracts: Monday 20th March February 2017 * Final date for receipt of actual papers: Friday 31st March 2017 These are final dates. The earlier we receive abstracts, and actual papers, the better. CONFERENCE ARRANGEMENTS AND COSTS The conference will run from lunch-time Monday 10th April until after lunch on Wednesday 12th April 2017. The conference cost will be inclusive of three lunches, teas/coffees. The full cost is ?145.00, with a cost of ?85.00 for students and the unwaged. Please register online at https://www.kxregistration.mmu.ac.uk/alternativefutures2017 Hotels, hostels and dining out We can supply information about relatively cheap local hotels and hostels. Let us know if you would like this information. We cannot do hotel or hostel bookings for you. Conference participants will be invited to dine together at two local (and not too expensive) restaurants on the two conference evenings. Payment for dinners should not be made in advance, but directly to the restaurants on the night. Please feel free to circulate this to anyone who might be interested. Colin Barker Mike Tyldesley "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From Peg.Griffin@att.net Mon Oct 24 06:48:31 2016 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 09:48:31 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Support Latinas at the #LatinaEqualPayDay Twitter Storm In-Reply-To: <580e0cfb20193_1b8eb572ed04991465@ip-10-0-0-61.mail> References: <580e0cfb20193_1b8eb572ed04991465@ip-10-0-0-61.mail> Message-ID: <001e01d22dfd$4f5a27d0$ee0e7770$@att.net> From: Sheva Diagne, AFL-CIO [mailto:chwr@aflcio.org] Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 9:31 AM To: Peg.Griffin@att.net Subject: Support Latinas at the #LatinaEqualPayDay Twitter Storm _____ Dear Peg: In 2016, Latinas experience a disparity in wages that is not only unacceptable for them as worker, but directly affects the families and communities that they support. Specifically, Latinas earn only 55 cents for every dollar earned by White, Non-Hispanic men. In order to enact change, The Labor Coalition for Latin American Advancement (LCLAA), the AFL-CIO, and countless partners, are raising awareness about the inequities faced by Latina workers and taking action! Join us by sponsoring the Latina Equal Pay Day Twitter Storm on November 1. Latina Equal Pay Day is observed on November 1, 2016. Although it is the last Equal Pay observance of the year, we all have a great responsibility to shine light on the issues that our Latina workers face day to day. We need to act now to let everyone know that we support #LatinaEqualPay and we VOTE! What: #LatinaEqualPay Day Twitter Storm When: Tuesday, November 1 from 2:00-3:00 PM ET (1:00 pm CT/12:00 pm MT/ 11:00 am PT) Where: Twitter, using the primary hashtag #LatinaEqualPay and secondary hashtags #Trabajadoras and #EqualPay Stay engaged online! The deadline to sign up to be a co-sponsor is Friday October 28th. Current co-sponsors include the Labor Council For Latin American Advancement, National Hispanic Leadership Agenda, AFL-CIO, American Association of University Women, Equal Pay Today!, National Women's Law Center, Casa de Esperanza, Alianza Nacional de Campesinas, Be Visible, Central Florida LCLAA Chapter, Civic Nation, Equal Rights Advocates, Hispanic Federation, Farmworker Justice, Greater Lansing LCLAA Chapter, LatinoJustice, Institute for Women?s Policy Research, Labor Project for Working Families, Latino Decisions, Latinos United for Secure Retirement, National Association of Hispanic Federal Executives (NAHFE), National Hispanic Federation for the Arts (NHFA), National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health, MALDEF, Make it Work, MomsRising, MANA, National Association of Hispanic Publications (NAHP), National Network to End Domestic Violence, National Partnership for Women and Families, National Domestic Workers Alliance, National Education Association (NEA), Presente, ROC, SAG-AFTRA, SER- Jobs for Progress National, Inc., South Florida LCLAA Chapter, The Latina Circle, USW Local 675, and Voto Latino. In Solidarity, Sheva Diagne Civil, Human and Women?s Rights Program Coordinator, AFL-CIO _____ AFL-CIO Facebook Twitter Visit us at www.aflcio.org | Facebook | Twitter Text WORK to AFLCIO (235246) to join our text action team. (Message and data rates may apply.) Sent via ActionNetwork.org . To update your email address or to stop receiving emails from Civil, Human and Women's Rights, please click here. From smago@uga.edu Mon Oct 24 07:58:56 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 14:58:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Support Latinas at the #LatinaEqualPayDay Twitter Storm In-Reply-To: <001e01d22dfd$4f5a27d0$ee0e7770$@att.net> References: <580e0cfb20193_1b8eb572ed04991465@ip-10-0-0-61.mail> <001e01d22dfd$4f5a27d0$ee0e7770$@att.net> Message-ID: I surely appreciate wage inequity struggles. Here's another: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/24/opinion/struggling-to-serve-at-the-nations-richest-university.html?src=trending&module=Ribbon&version=origin®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Trending&pgtype=article And all of our office workers are grossly underpaid, as are teaching assistants and adjuncts. Probably most campus employees who aren't administrators. I was trying to think of a snappy comment to end this with, but all I can think of is all those management buyouts at tens of millions of dollars when they get fired for incompetence or sleazy practices. Damn. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peg Griffin Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 9:49 AM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Support Latinas at the #LatinaEqualPayDay Twitter Storm From: Sheva Diagne, AFL-CIO [mailto:chwr@aflcio.org] Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 9:31 AM To: Peg.Griffin@att.net Subject: Support Latinas at the #LatinaEqualPayDay Twitter Storm _____ Dear Peg: In 2016, Latinas experience a disparity in wages that is not only unacceptable for them as worker, but directly affects the families and communities that they support. Specifically, Latinas earn only 55 cents for every dollar earned by White, Non-Hispanic men. In order to enact change, The Labor Coalition for Latin American Advancement (LCLAA), the AFL-CIO, and countless partners, are raising awareness about the inequities faced by Latina workers and taking action! Join us by sponsoring the Latina Equal Pay Day Twitter Storm on November 1. Latina Equal Pay Day is observed on November 1, 2016. Although it is the last Equal Pay observance of the year, we all have a great responsibility to shine light on the issues that our Latina workers face day to day. We need to act now to let everyone know that we support #LatinaEqualPay and we VOTE! What: #LatinaEqualPay Day Twitter Storm When: Tuesday, November 1 from 2:00-3:00 PM ET (1:00 pm CT/12:00 pm MT/ 11:00 am PT) Where: Twitter, using the primary hashtag #LatinaEqualPay and secondary hashtags #Trabajadoras and #EqualPay Stay engaged online! The deadline to sign up to be a co-sponsor is Friday October 28th. Current co-sponsors include the Labor Council For Latin American Advancement, National Hispanic Leadership Agenda, AFL-CIO, American Association of University Women, Equal Pay Today!, National Women's Law Center, Casa de Esperanza, Alianza Nacional de Campesinas, Be Visible, Central Florida LCLAA Chapter, Civic Nation, Equal Rights Advocates, Hispanic Federation, Farmworker Justice, Greater Lansing LCLAA Chapter, LatinoJustice, Institute for Women?s Policy Research, Labor Project for Working Families, Latino Decisions, Latinos United for Secure Retirement, National Association of Hispanic Federal Executives (NAHFE), National Hispanic Federation for the Arts (NHFA), National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health, MALDEF, Make it Work, MomsRising, MANA, National Association of Hispanic Publications (NAHP), National Network to End Domestic Violence, National Partnership for Women and Families, National Domestic Workers Alliance, National Education Association (NEA), Presente, ROC, SAG-AFTRA, SER- Jobs for Progress National, Inc., South Florida LCLAA Chapter, The Latina Circle, USW Local 675, and Voto Latino. In Solidarity, Sheva Diagne Civil, Human and Women?s Rights Program Coordinator, AFL-CIO _____ AFL-CIO Facebook Twitter Visit us at www.aflcio.org | Facebook | Twitter Text WORK to AFLCIO (235246) to join our text action team. (Message and data rates may apply.) Sent via ActionNetwork.org . To update your email address or to stop receiving emails from Civil, Human and Women's Rights, please click here. From smago@uga.edu Mon Oct 24 08:14:14 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 15:14:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Support Latinas at the #LatinaEqualPayDay Twitter Storm In-Reply-To: References: <580e0cfb20193_1b8eb572ed04991465@ip-10-0-0-61.mail> <001e01d22dfd$4f5a27d0$ee0e7770$@att.net> Message-ID: I am not a fraud. C'est moi. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 10:59 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Support Latinas at the #LatinaEqualPayDay Twitter Storm This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing I surely appreciate wage inequity struggles. Here's another: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/24/opinion/struggling-to-serve-at-the-nations-richest-university.html?src=trending&module=Ribbon&version=origin®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Trending&pgtype=article And all of our office workers are grossly underpaid, as are teaching assistants and adjuncts. Probably most campus employees who aren't administrators. I was trying to think of a snappy comment to end this with, but all I can think of is all those management buyouts at tens of millions of dollars when they get fired for incompetence or sleazy practices. Damn. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peg Griffin Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 9:49 AM To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Support Latinas at the #LatinaEqualPayDay Twitter Storm From: Sheva Diagne, AFL-CIO [mailto:chwr@aflcio.org] Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 9:31 AM To: Peg.Griffin@att.net Subject: Support Latinas at the #LatinaEqualPayDay Twitter Storm _____ Dear Peg: In 2016, Latinas experience a disparity in wages that is not only unacceptable for them as worker, but directly affects the families and communities that they support. Specifically, Latinas earn only 55 cents for every dollar earned by White, Non-Hispanic men. In order to enact change, The Labor Coalition for Latin American Advancement (LCLAA), the AFL-CIO, and countless partners, are raising awareness about the inequities faced by Latina workers and taking action! Join us by sponsoring the Latina Equal Pay Day Twitter Storm on November 1. Latina Equal Pay Day is observed on November 1, 2016. Although it is the last Equal Pay observance of the year, we all have a great responsibility to shine light on the issues that our Latina workers face day to day. We need to act now to let everyone know that we support #LatinaEqualPay and we VOTE! What: #LatinaEqualPay Day Twitter Storm When: Tuesday, November 1 from 2:00-3:00 PM ET (1:00 pm CT/12:00 pm MT/ 11:00 am PT) Where: Twitter, using the primary hashtag #LatinaEqualPay and secondary hashtags #Trabajadoras and #EqualPay Stay engaged online! The deadline to sign up to be a co-sponsor is Friday October 28th. Current co-sponsors include the Labor Council For Latin American Advancement, National Hispanic Leadership Agenda, AFL-CIO, American Association of University Women, Equal Pay Today!, National Women's Law Center, Casa de Esperanza, Alianza Nacional de Campesinas, Be Visible, Central Florida LCLAA Chapter, Civic Nation, Equal Rights Advocates, Hispanic Federation, Farmworker Justice, Greater Lansing LCLAA Chapter, LatinoJustice, Institute for Women?s Policy Research, Labor Project for Working Families, Latino Decisions, Latinos United for Secure Retirement, National Association of Hispanic Federal Executives (NAHFE), National Hispanic Federation for the Arts (NHFA), National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health, MALDEF, Make it Work, MomsRising, MANA, National Association of Hispanic Publications (NAHP), National Network to End Domestic Violence, National Partnership for Women and Families, National Domestic Workers Alliance, National Education Association (NEA), Presente, ROC, SAG-AFTRA, SER- Jobs for Progress National, Inc., South Florida LCLAA Chapter, The Latina Circle, USW Local 675, and Voto Latino. In Solidarity, Sheva Diagne Civil, Human and Women?s Rights Program Coordinator, AFL-CIO _____ AFL-CIO Facebook Twitter Visit us at www.aflcio.org | Facebook | Twitter Text WORK to AFLCIO (235246) to join our text action team. (Message and data rates may apply.) Sent via ActionNetwork.org . To update your email address or to stop receiving emails from Civil, Human and Women's Rights, please click here. From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 24 09:44:38 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 09:44:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Manchester_Social_Movements_conference=2C_April_201?= =?utf-8?q?7_=E2=80=93_call_for_papers?= In-Reply-To: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D66827588001DFC1FF9F@exmb2> References: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D66827588001DFC1FDF1@exmb2> <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D66827588001DFC1FF9F@exmb2> Message-ID: Concerning "digital outreach" Colin. I get it about the value of chatting at the pub and leisurely face to face interactions, but the vast majority of xmca-o-philes could not afford to come to the meeting even it they wanted to. But having someone record what you consider a central talk or two, putting it on a web page, and inviting xmca members to view it, would at least provide some access to the otherwise (dare I use the phrase?) disinherited. There are participants on xmca who are near neighbors of yours who, I am certain, could provide the needed bit of assistance. mike On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 3:26 AM, C Barker wrote: > We're deeply digitally incompetent, so I'm not even sure what 'digital > outreach' might mean. We did, though, manage to have Andy Blunden present a > talk via Skype last year. What's missing from digital linkages, though, is > the *conversation* in the pub and over food and coffee that is part of the > productive work of conferences. I missed *chatting* with Andy. > Colin > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* lchcmike@gmail.com [lchcmike@gmail.com] on behalf of mike cole [ > mcole@ucsd.edu] > *Sent:* 24 October 2016 04:02 > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Cc:* C Barker > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Manchester Social Movements conference, April > 2017 ? call for papers > > Looks fascinating and timely, Colin -- So many interesting > categories/problematics to consider all in one place! > > Will there be some kind of digital outreach? > > mike > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 9:22 AM, C Barker wrote: > >> SOCIAL MOVEMENTS CONFERENCE - CALL FOR PAPERS >> >> >> >> >From 1995 to 2016, Manchester Metropolitan University hosted a series of >> very successful annual international conferences on 'ALTERNATIVE FUTURES >> and POPULAR PROTEST'. >> >> >> >> We're very happy to announce that the Twenty Second AF&PP Conference will >> be held between Monday 10th and Wednesday 12th April 2017. >> >> >> >> The Conference rubric will remain as in previous years. The aim is to >> explore the dynamics of popular movements, along with the ideas which >> animate their activists and supporters and which contribute to shaping >> their fate. >> >> >> >> Reflecting the inherent cross-disciplinary nature of the issues, previous >> participants (from over 60 countries) have come from such specialisms as >> sociology, politics, cultural studies, social psychology, economics, >> history and geography. The Manchester conferences have been notable for >> discovering a fruitful and friendly meeting ground between activism and >> academia. >> >> >> >> PRELIMINARY CALL FOR PAPERS >> >> >> >> We invite offers of papers relevant to the conference themes. Papers >> should address such matters as: >> >> >> >> * contemporary and historical social movements and popular protests >> >> >> >> * social movement theory >> >> >> >> * utopias and experiments >> >> >> >> * ideologies of collective action >> >> >> >> * etc. >> >> >> >> To offer a paper, please contact either of the conference convenors with >> a brief abstract: >> >> >> >> EITHER Colin Barker, >> >> email: c.barker@mmu.ac.uk >> >> OR Mike Tyldesley, Politics Section, HPP, >> >> Manchester Metropolitan University >> >> Geoffrey Manton Building, Rosamond Street West >> >> Manchester M15 6LL, England >> >> Tel: M. Tyldesley 0161 247 3460 >> >> email: m.tyldesley@mmu.ac.uk >> >> Fax: 0161 247 6769 (+44 161 247 6769) >> >> (Wherever possible, please use email, especially as Colin Barker is a >> retired gent. Surface mail and faxes should only be addressed to Mike >> Tyldesley) >> >> >> >> CONFERENCE PAPERS >> >> >> >> One way we organise this particular conference is that we ask those >> giving papers to supply them in advance, for inclusion in a Dropbox folder >> of the complete papers which will be available to all delegates from the >> conference opening. >> >> >> >> * Preferred method: send the paper to Colin Barker as an email attachment >> in MS Word or .pdf format. Any separate illustrations etc. should be sent >> separately, in .jpg format. >> >> >> >> * if this is impossible, post a copy of the text to Mike Tyldesley on a >> CD disk in MS Word or .pdf format >> >> >> >> * Final date for receipt of abstracts: Monday 20th March February 2017 >> >> >> >> * Final date for receipt of actual papers: Friday 31st March 2017 >> >> >> >> These are final dates. The earlier we receive abstracts, and actual >> papers, the better. >> >> >> >> >> >> CONFERENCE ARRANGEMENTS AND COSTS >> >> >> >> The conference will run from lunch-time Monday 10th April until after >> lunch on Wednesday 12th April 2017. >> >> >> >> The conference cost will be inclusive of three lunches, teas/coffees. The >> full cost is ?145.00, with a cost of ?85.00 for students and the unwaged. >> Please register online at https://www.kxregistration.mmu >> .ac.uk/alternativefutures2017 >> >> >> >> Hotels, hostels and dining out >> >> >> We can supply information about relatively cheap local hotels and >> hostels. Let us know if you would like this information. >> >> >> We cannot do hotel or hostel bookings for you. >> >> >> >> Conference participants will be invited to dine together at two local >> (and not too expensive) restaurants on the two conference evenings. Payment >> for dinners should not be made in advance, but directly to the restaurants >> on the night. >> >> >> >> Please feel free to circulate this to anyone who might be interested. >> >> >> >> Colin Barker >> >> Mike Tyldesley >> >> >> >> "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read >> the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its >> website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " >> > > "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read > the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its > website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 24 10:35:40 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 10:35:40 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Time for a Generational Change Message-ID: Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for me to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and develop discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via an authorized journal. The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics that intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the journal, including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid exchange of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary interests. My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the world, so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving the rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" has dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of circumstances seems like a major task for the future. Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke the most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment for the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies the limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. Thus spake mike From dkirsh@lsu.edu Mon Oct 24 11:59:06 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 18:59:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Mike for your dedicated stewardship of the list. It's been an important part of my life for several decades, now, and because these kinds of communities are so rare, we don't have good ways to know the extent to which xlchc/XMCA's longevity owes to the constancy of your online presence--I guess we'll find out more about that as Alfredo takes the helm; good luck Alfredo. Your hope that MCA/XMCA might arrive at a cumulative discourse seems related--perhaps identical--to the possibility that psychology, itself, might pass from the what Kuhn called the pre-paradigm stage to full paradigmatic maturity characterized by an initial consensus of basic perspectives, or as you put it, "agreement on a broad set of principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies the limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry." Of course the difference is that you were talking just of the sociocultural/chat branch of psychology. But, somehow, the kinds of issues/controversies we confront on XMCA seem continuous with the broader issues that separate the major paradigms of psychology. If Kuhn is correct then achieving this consensus is the principal underlying imperative across the many branches of psychology, though each is attempting to frame that future with itself as the unifying center. Beautiful technological platforms may help, but it seems the final breakthrough, if it ever comes, will be intellectual. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 12:36 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity ; lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Time for a Generational Change Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for me to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and develop discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via an authorized journal. The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics that intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the journal, including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid exchange of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary interests. My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the world, so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving the rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" has dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of circumstances seems like a major task for the future. Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke the most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment for the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies the limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. Thus spake mike From Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch Mon Oct 24 12:07:44 2016 From: Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch (PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 19:07:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Mike, For an incredible number of years (34?), I have enjoyed following your impulses, seeing growing the network that you created around The Quarterly Newsletter of the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition; then came your creative socio-technical innovations (yours was the first electronic list that I have ever been affiliated to); and MCA, XMCA, etc. Many many thanks Mike. Amiti?s, Anne-Nelly Prof. em. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont Institut de psychologie et ?ducation Facult? des lettres et sciences humaines Universit? de Neuch?tel Espace L. Agassiz 1, CH- 2000 Neuch?tel (Switzerland) http://www2.unine.ch/ipe/publications/anne_nelly_perret_clermont New publication: "Educational settings as interwoven socio-material orderings?.Springerhas just offered open access to our recent special issue of the European Journal of Psychology of Education - you are welcome to take a look & share thislink with colleagues & students: http://link.springer.com/journal/10212/31/1/page/1?wt_mc=10.CON434.SI_Edu_E UPE -----Message d'origine----- De : on behalf of mike cole R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date : lundi, 24 octobre 2016 19:35 ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" , "lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" Objet : [Xmca-l] Time for a Generational Change Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for me to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and develop discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via an authorized journal. The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics that intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the journal, including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid exchange of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary interests. My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the world, so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving the rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" has dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of circumstances seems like a major task for the future. Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke the most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment for the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies the limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. Thus spake mike From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 24 12:22:37 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 12:22:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the kind words, David. In my view, what we refer to as chat or sociocultural studies, etc. is as firm a foundation for a new paradigm for understanding human nature as anything else I see on the horizon. But it does not seem worth arguing about in general. The proof is in the pudding and the proof of the pudding is in the eating and its aftermath. Looking forward to enlightening discussions here. mike On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 11:59 AM, David H Kirshner wrote: > Thank you Mike for your dedicated stewardship of the list. > It's been an important part of my life for several decades, now, and > because these kinds of communities are so rare, we don't have good ways to > know the extent to which xlchc/XMCA's longevity owes to the constancy of > your online presence--I guess we'll find out more about that as Alfredo > takes the helm; good luck Alfredo. > > Your hope that MCA/XMCA might arrive at a cumulative discourse seems > related--perhaps identical--to the possibility that psychology, itself, > might pass from the what Kuhn called the pre-paradigm stage to full > paradigmatic maturity characterized by an initial consensus of basic > perspectives, or as you put it, "agreement on a broad set of > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies the > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry." Of course the > difference is that you were talking just of the sociocultural/chat branch > of psychology. But, somehow, the kinds of issues/controversies we confront > on XMCA seem continuous with the broader issues that separate the major > paradigms of psychology. > > If Kuhn is correct then achieving this consensus is the principal > underlying imperative across the many branches of psychology, though each > is attempting to frame that future with itself as the unifying center. > Beautiful technological platforms may help, but it seems the final > breakthrough, if it ever comes, will be intellectual. > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 12:36 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity ; > lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Time for a Generational Change > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for me > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and develop > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via an > authorized journal. > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics that > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the journal, > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid exchange > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > interests. > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the world, > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving the > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" has > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke the > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment for > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies the > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > Thus spake > > mike > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 24 12:27:13 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 12:27:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Anne-Nelly -- The nice thing about the newsletter was that we did not have to put up with reviewing hassles of the sort discussed on xmca a few days ago. But of course, it didn't count for careers, so Yrjo pushed us into formal publications. Ah, for the good old days! :-)) I tried to reach the Springer article by when I clicked on that link, it told me that I could pay 39+$ to read it! Lets hope my library can do better. mike On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 12:07 PM, PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: > Dear Mike, > For an incredible number of years (34?), I have enjoyed following your > impulses, seeing growing the network that you created around The Quarterly > Newsletter of the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition; then came > your creative socio-technical innovations (yours was the first electronic > list that I have ever been affiliated to); and MCA, XMCA, etc. > Many many thanks Mike. > > Amiti?s, > Anne-Nelly > > > Prof. em. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont > Institut de psychologie et ?ducation Facult? des lettres et sciences > humaines > Universit? de Neuch?tel > Espace L. Agassiz 1, CH- 2000 Neuch?tel (Switzerland) > http://www2.unine.ch/ipe/publications/anne_nelly_perret_clermont > > New > publication: "Educational settings as interwoven socio-material > orderings?.Springerhas just offered open access to our recent special > issue of the European Journal of Psychology of Education - you are welcome > to take a look & share thislink with colleagues & students: > http://link.springer.com/journal/10212/31/1/page/1?wt_ > mc=10.CON434.SI_Edu_E > UPE > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : on behalf of mike cole > > R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date : lundi, 24 octobre 2016 19:35 > ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" , > "lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Objet : [Xmca-l] Time for a Generational Change > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for me > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and develop > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via an > authorized journal. > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics that > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the journal, > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid exchange > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > interests. > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the world, > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving the > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" has > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke the > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment for > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies the > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > Thus spake > > mike > > > From Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch Mon Oct 24 12:36:02 2016 From: Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch (PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 19:36:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike again- good all days?Let?s keep remembering the best part of them . And let's continue to open side tracks to overcome obstacles, as you did. Sorry to see that Springer has closed the link. Thank you for letting me know.I attach here our introduction to the issue. And I?ll be happy to forward the chapters (one or all), if asked to. Best greetings Anne-Nelly -----Message d'origine----- De : on behalf of mike cole R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Date : lundi, 24 octobre 2016 21:27 ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Objet : [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change Hi Anne-Nelly -- The nice thing about the newsletter was that we did not have to put up with reviewing hassles of the sort discussed on xmca a few days ago. But of course, it didn't count for careers, so Yrjo pushed us into formal publications. Ah, for the good old days! :-)) I tried to reach the Springer article by when I clicked on that link, it told me that I could pay 39+$ to read it! Lets hope my library can do better. mike On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 12:07 PM, PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: > Dear Mike, > For an incredible number of years (34?), I have enjoyed following your > impulses, seeing growing the network that you created around The >Quarterly > Newsletter of the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition; then came > your creative socio-technical innovations (yours was the first electronic > list that I have ever been affiliated to); and MCA, XMCA, etc. > Many many thanks Mike. > > Amiti?s, > Anne-Nelly > > > Prof. em. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont > Institut de psychologie et ?ducation Facult? des lettres et sciences > humaines > Universit? de Neuch?tel > Espace L. Agassiz 1, CH- 2000 Neuch?tel (Switzerland) > http://www2.unine.ch/ipe/publications/anne_nelly_perret_clermont > > New > publication: "Educational settings as interwoven socio-material > orderings?.Springerhas just offered open access to our recent special > issue of the European Journal of Psychology of Education - you are >welcome > to take a look & share thislink with colleagues & students: > http://link.springer.com/journal/10212/31/1/page/1?wt_ > mc=10.CON434.SI_Edu_E > UPE > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : on behalf of mike cole > > R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date : lundi, 24 octobre 2016 19:35 > ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" , > "lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > Objet : [Xmca-l] Time for a Generational Change > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for >me > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and >develop > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via >an > authorized journal. > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics >that > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the >journal, > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid >exchange > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > interests. > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the >world, > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving >the > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" >has > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke >the > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment >for > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies >the > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > Thus spake > > mike > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: KontopodisClermontIntroEJPE.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 343817 bytes Desc: KontopodisClermontIntroEJPE.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161024/96f4ede7/attachment.pdf From anamshane@gmail.com Mon Oct 24 13:40:55 2016 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 20:40:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Mike, Thank you for such a wonderful period of my adult life - as Anne-Nelly said, more than 30 years!!! I hardly even got a computer in the 80s when I discovered you and your pioneering listserve XMCA! It gave me a community and provoked me to think and to discuss issues for a long time, and to always stay a lurker! You created a spirit of true scholarship among so many people over such a long time. I especially appreciate the sense of being welcomed and recognized that you created for me and for everyone else. I want to also welcome Alfredo with a big applause! This is a difficult but incredibly gratifying role! Mike, thank you for so many years of intellectual provocation and stimulation! Ana On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 9:37 PM PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: > Hi Mike again- > good all days?Let?s keep remembering the best part of them . And let's > continue to open side tracks to overcome obstacles, as you did. > > Sorry to see that Springer has closed the link. Thank you for letting me > know.I attach here our introduction to the issue. And I?ll be happy to > forward the chapters (one or all), if asked to. > > Best greetings > Anne-Nelly > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : on behalf of mike cole > > R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date : lundi, 24 octobre 2016 21:27 > ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Objet : [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Hi Anne-Nelly -- > > The nice thing about the newsletter was that we did not have to put up with > reviewing hassles of the sort discussed on xmca a few days ago. But of > course, it didn't count for careers, so Yrjo pushed us into formal > publications. Ah, for the good old days! :-)) > > I tried to reach the Springer article by when I clicked on that link, it > told me that I could pay 39+$ to read it! Lets hope my library can do > better. > > mike > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 12:07 PM, PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < > Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: > > > Dear Mike, > > For an incredible number of years (34?), I have enjoyed following your > > impulses, seeing growing the network that you created around The > >Quarterly > > Newsletter of the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition; then came > > your creative socio-technical innovations (yours was the first electronic > > list that I have ever been affiliated to); and MCA, XMCA, etc. > > Many many thanks Mike. > > > > Amiti?s, > > Anne-Nelly > > > > > > Prof. em. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont > > Institut de psychologie et ?ducation Facult? des lettres et sciences > > humaines > > Universit? de Neuch?tel > > Espace L. Agassiz 1, CH- 2000 Neuch?tel (Switzerland) > > http://www2.unine.ch/ipe/publications/anne_nelly_perret_clermont > > > > New > > publication: "Educational settings as interwoven socio-material > > orderings?.Springerhas just offered open access to our recent special > > issue of the European Journal of Psychology of Education - you are > >welcome > > to take a look & share thislink with colleagues & students: > > http://link.springer.com/journal/10212/31/1/page/1?wt_ > > mc=10.CON434.SI_Edu_E > > UPE > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : on behalf of mike cole > > > > R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Date : lundi, 24 octobre 2016 19:35 > > ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" , > > "lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > > Objet : [Xmca-l] Time for a Generational Change > > > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the > > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for > >me > > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial > > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie > > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as > > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new > > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for > > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and > >develop > > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. > > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public > > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via > >an > > authorized journal. > > > > > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics > >that > > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. > > > > > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, > > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. > > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in > > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international > > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the > > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the > >journal, > > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid > >exchange > > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > > interests. > > > > > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can > > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the > >world, > > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its > > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future > > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. > > > > > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. > > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the > > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving > >the > > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" > >has > > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of > > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like > > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke > >the > > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our > > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment > >for > > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies > >the > > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > > > > > Thus spake > > > > mike > > > > > > > > -- *Ana Marjanovic-Shane* Dialogic Pedagogy Journal, Editor (dpj.pitt.edu) Chestnut Hill College, Associate Professor of Education e-mails: shaneam@chc.edu anamshane@gmail.com US phone: +1 267-334-2905 Serbian phone: +381 62 1904 110 From lemke.jay@gmail.com Mon Oct 24 13:59:56 2016 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:59:56 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eeeek! Just saw I have 230 unread messages in xmca! A sign of my long absence/peripherality. But having put my THANKS to Mike on the LCHC list, I want to repeat it here, and add a welcome in his new role to Alfredo! who may find he is Pastor (as Mike says) to not sheep, but cats. ;-) [For non-English-native friends, "herding cats" is an old idiom in English for a difficult task working with independent-minded people.] Like so many of us here, I owe a great debt of thanks for the stimulation and support of this community in its many virtual incarnations over so many years. I remember the labyrinthine and herculean efforts it took back in the late 80s to connect an early model PC to the old xlchc, via a primitive telephone modem, some software called Kermit, and the university's IBM mainframe computer ... it wasn't even the WWW back then or the internet, just the NSFNet and TCP/IP. Just getting connected online to the listgroup was an education in technology! But worth every frustrating tech-glitch and Read the Manual (for an IBM mainframe?!) mystery to participate in a wonderful intellectual community. In solidarity, JAY. Jay Lemke Professor Emeritus City University of New York www.jaylemke.com On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Dear Mike, > > Thank you for such a wonderful period of my adult life - as Anne-Nelly > said, more than 30 years!!! I hardly even got a computer in the 80s when I > discovered you and your pioneering listserve XMCA! It gave me a community > and provoked me to think and to discuss issues for a long time, and to > always stay a lurker! > You created a spirit of true scholarship among so many people over such a > long time. I especially appreciate the sense of being welcomed and > recognized that you created for me and for everyone else. > > I want to also welcome Alfredo with a big applause! This is a difficult but > incredibly gratifying role! > > Mike, thank you for so many years of intellectual provocation and > stimulation! > > Ana > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 9:37 PM PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < > Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: > > > Hi Mike again- > > good all days?Let?s keep remembering the best part of them . And let's > > continue to open side tracks to overcome obstacles, as you did. > > > > Sorry to see that Springer has closed the link. Thank you for letting me > > know.I attach here our introduction to the issue. And I?ll be happy to > > forward the chapters (one or all), if asked to. > > > > Best greetings > > Anne-Nelly > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : on behalf of mike cole > > > > R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Date : lundi, 24 octobre 2016 21:27 > > ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Objet : [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > Hi Anne-Nelly -- > > > > The nice thing about the newsletter was that we did not have to put up > with > > reviewing hassles of the sort discussed on xmca a few days ago. But of > > course, it didn't count for careers, so Yrjo pushed us into formal > > publications. Ah, for the good old days! :-)) > > > > I tried to reach the Springer article by when I clicked on that link, it > > told me that I could pay 39+$ to read it! Lets hope my library can do > > better. > > > > mike > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 12:07 PM, PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < > > Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > For an incredible number of years (34?), I have enjoyed following your > > > impulses, seeing growing the network that you created around The > > >Quarterly > > > Newsletter of the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition; then came > > > your creative socio-technical innovations (yours was the first > electronic > > > list that I have ever been affiliated to); and MCA, XMCA, etc. > > > Many many thanks Mike. > > > > > > Amiti?s, > > > Anne-Nelly > > > > > > > > > Prof. em. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont > > > Institut de psychologie et ?ducation Facult? des lettres et sciences > > > humaines > > > Universit? de Neuch?tel > > > Espace L. Agassiz 1, CH- 2000 Neuch?tel (Switzerland) > > > http://www2.unine.ch/ipe/publications/anne_nelly_perret_clermont > > > > > > New > > > publication: "Educational settings as interwoven socio-material > > > orderings?.Springerhas just offered open access to our recent special > > > issue of the European Journal of Psychology of Education - you are > > >welcome > > > to take a look & share thislink with colleagues & students: > > > http://link.springer.com/journal/10212/31/1/page/1?wt_ > > > mc=10.CON434.SI_Edu_E > > > UPE > > > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : on behalf of mike cole > > > > > > R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > Date : lundi, 24 octobre 2016 19:35 > > > ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" , > > > "lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" > > > Objet : [Xmca-l] Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in > the > > > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come > for > > >me > > > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial > > > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie > > > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as > > > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new > > > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" > for > > > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > > > > > > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > > > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and > > >develop > > > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the > journal. > > > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public > > > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying > via > > >an > > > authorized journal. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics > > >that > > > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. > > > > > > > > > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral > role, > > > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. > > > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career > in > > > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this > international > > > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the > > > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the > > >journal, > > > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid > > >exchange > > > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > > > interests. > > > > > > > > > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > > > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words > can > > > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the > > >world, > > > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote > its > > > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the > future > > > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the > years. > > > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the > > > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving > > >the > > > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" > > >has > > > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of > > > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more > like > > > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > > > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > > > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > > > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > > > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke > > >the > > > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our > > > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment > > >for > > > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > > > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies > > >the > > > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus spake > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > *Ana Marjanovic-Shane* > Dialogic Pedagogy Journal, Editor (dpj.pitt.edu) > Chestnut Hill College, Associate Professor of Education > e-mails: shaneam@chc.edu > anamshane@gmail.com > US phone: +1 267-334-2905 > Serbian phone: +381 62 1904 110 > From bazerman@education.ucsb.edu Mon Oct 24 14:18:06 2016 From: bazerman@education.ucsb.edu (Chuck Bazerman) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 14:18:06 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting thoughts and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have the leisure and pleasure of lurking. Best, Chuck From goncu@uic.edu Mon Oct 24 14:44:18 2016 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 16:44:18 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Mike, Thank you very much for your contributions and your tireless leadership for the growth of this community. As a member of this xmca list, as one of the former editors of MCA, and a contributor of LCHC Newsletter, I have learned a lot from you and others in this community. This list remains a significant part of my life that I follow in anchoring my work and checking on like-minded colleagues. Most importantly though, all throughout my career I felt a special sense of belonging to this community that has accepted me for who I am and what I am able to contribute. Thank you! In gratitude and solidarity, ag Artin Goncu, Ph.D http://www.artingoncu.com/ Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 On Mon, October 24, 2016 12:35 pm, mike cole wrote: > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for > me > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and develop > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via > an > authorized journal. > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m??lange of topics > that > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the > journal, > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid exchange > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > interests. > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the world, > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving the > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" > has > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke the > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment > for > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies > the > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > Thus spake > > mike > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D http://www.artingoncu.com/ Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Oct 24 15:30:48 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:30:48 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An excellent example of sociogenetic regression--Mike abandons husbandry and reverts to a form of hunting and gathering, viz. fly-fishing. On the first problem--the mansplaining blokey-ness of xmca. I think this at least partly solved in the make-up the editorial committee of the journal. One might object that editing is really an administrative function, and so this is yet another example of the feminization of lowly roles. I think that is not true generally and certainly not true at MCA: I can remember, actually, when a whole genre of articles (the shorter pieces) could be suddenly abolished by editorial fiat. And, as Mike says, xmca is really, at bottom, a forum for the discussion of provocative articles in MCA. The second problem seems more intractable to me, but for that very reason I think it is probably less specific to xmca. Instead of managing to build vertical knowledge structures, as in the natural sciences, with each layer resting on and in principle reducible to the lower layer, social scientists tend to create horizontal ones, with their own tribal rules, rites of passage, and above all their own forms of discourse. Interestingly, the kind of "interdisciplinarity" that MCA has always encourages, based on very specific topics but subtended by a vast body of all embracing theory, seems to exacerbate the segmentary mode rather than ameliorate it. Not sure why. Huw tries to set up points of comparison that might actually enable inter-tribal cooperation at least between closely allied groups of CHATniks (psychology, social process, cultural factors in the work of Vygotsky, Galperin, Leontiev, Davydov, Wertsch, Rogoff and Matusov, Engstrom). That, I think, is a step in the direction of thematic unity, and transdisciplinarity. It's really thematic unity that holds together the natural sciences (that is, the idea that everything can be studied as a form of matter, or as a chemical, or as a life form, etc.), and its transdisciplinarity that makes lasting alliances and fixed concepts possible. Something for Mike to ruminate about while he's off fly-fishing. Mike's skill as a sheepdog always did owe something to his ability to get into a sheepskin. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > Dear Mike, > > Thank you very much for your contributions and your tireless leadership > for the growth of this community. As a member of this xmca list, as one > of the former editors of MCA, and a contributor of LCHC Newsletter, I have > learned a lot from you and others in this community. This list remains a > significant part of my life that I follow in anchoring my work and > checking on like-minded colleagues. Most importantly though, all > throughout my career I felt a special sense of belonging to this community > that has accepted me for who I am and what I am able to contribute. Thank > you! > > In gratitude and solidarity, ag > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, October 24, 2016 12:35 pm, mike cole wrote: > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the > > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for > > me > > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial > > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie > > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as > > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new > > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for > > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and > develop > > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. > > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public > > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via > > an > > authorized journal. > > > > > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics > > that > > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. > > > > > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, > > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. > > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in > > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international > > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the > > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the > > journal, > > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid > exchange > > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > > interests. > > > > > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can > > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the > world, > > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its > > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future > > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. > > > > > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. > > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the > > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving > the > > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" > > has > > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of > > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like > > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke > the > > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our > > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment > > for > > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies > > the > > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > > > > > Thus spake > > > > mike > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Oct 24 15:57:50 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 23:57:50 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: V. funny David. I was going to wait for the 5 year olds to start speaking, but I'll put my "thank you" in here now, seeing as I've been mentioned. Actually, as I recall, I started my questioning on the basis of putting a table of comparisons together. :) I think the points Mike made can be turned over a number of times -- perhaps the repetition is part of the longevity, though I have no idea where this bloke boundary is, so assume I must be a regular trespasser in order to traipse out a point or two. Thanks Mike. Best, Huw On 24 October 2016 at 23:30, David Kellogg wrote: > An excellent example of sociogenetic regression--Mike abandons > husbandry and reverts to a form of hunting and gathering, viz. fly-fishing. > > On the first problem--the mansplaining blokey-ness of xmca. I think this at > least partly solved in the make-up the editorial committee of the journal. > One might object that editing is really an administrative function, and so > this is yet another example of the feminization of lowly roles. I think > that is not true generally and certainly not true at MCA: I can remember, > actually, when a whole genre of articles (the shorter pieces) could be > suddenly abolished by editorial fiat. And, as Mike says, xmca is really, at > bottom, a forum for the discussion of provocative articles in MCA. > > The second problem seems more intractable to me, but for that very reason I > think it is probably less specific to xmca. Instead of managing to build > vertical knowledge structures, as in the natural sciences, with each layer > resting on and in principle reducible to the lower layer, social scientists > tend to create horizontal ones, with their own tribal rules, rites of > passage, and above all their own forms of discourse. Interestingly, the > kind of "interdisciplinarity" that MCA has always encourages, based on very > specific topics but subtended by a vast body of all embracing theory, seems > to exacerbate the segmentary mode rather than ameliorate it. Not sure why. > > Huw tries to set up points of comparison that might actually enable > inter-tribal cooperation at least between closely allied groups of > CHATniks (psychology, social process, cultural factors in the work of > Vygotsky, Galperin, Leontiev, Davydov, Wertsch, Rogoff and Matusov, > Engstrom). That, I think, is a step in the direction of thematic unity, and > transdisciplinarity. It's really thematic unity that holds together the > natural sciences (that is, the idea that everything can be studied as a > form of matter, or as a chemical, or as a life form, etc.), and its > transdisciplinarity that makes lasting alliances and fixed concepts > possible. > > Something for Mike to ruminate about while he's off fly-fishing. > Mike's skill as a sheepdog always did owe something to his ability to get > into a sheepskin. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > Thank you very much for your contributions and your tireless leadership > > for the growth of this community. As a member of this xmca list, as one > > of the former editors of MCA, and a contributor of LCHC Newsletter, I > have > > learned a lot from you and others in this community. This list remains a > > significant part of my life that I follow in anchoring my work and > > checking on like-minded colleagues. Most importantly though, all > > throughout my career I felt a special sense of belonging to this > community > > that has accepted me for who I am and what I am able to contribute. > Thank > > you! > > > > In gratitude and solidarity, ag > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > Professor Emeritus, > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > College of Education M/C 147 > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, October 24, 2016 12:35 pm, mike cole wrote: > > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in > the > > > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come > for > > > me > > > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial > > > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie > > > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as > > > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new > > > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" > for > > > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > > > > > > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > > > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and > > develop > > > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the > journal. > > > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public > > > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying > via > > > an > > > authorized journal. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics > > > that > > > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. > > > > > > > > > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral > role, > > > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. > > > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career > in > > > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this > international > > > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the > > > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the > > > journal, > > > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid > > exchange > > > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > > > interests. > > > > > > > > > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > > > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words > can > > > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the > > world, > > > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote > its > > > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the > future > > > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the > years. > > > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the > > > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving > > the > > > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" > > > has > > > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of > > > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more > like > > > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > > > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > > > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > > > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > > > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke > > the > > > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our > > > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment > > > for > > > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > > > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies > > > the > > > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus spake > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > Professor Emeritus, > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > College of Education M/C 147 > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Oct 24 16:31:11 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:31:11 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5bf3e42f-337a-6351-ff67-5a1446cf2553@mira.net> I will add my appreciation to what others have said, ... but words almost fail me. No-one, no-one in my life has taught me as much as Mike Cole, and dare I say that if I managed a little real development late in life it was thanks to Mike Cole and this amazing list. The amount of work which goes into the kind of care Mike has given to moderating this list and personal correspondence is breathtaking and I will be forever grateful for that. And when I refer to what Mike "taught" me, this was almost always only by creating expectations. I think very often Mike didn't even understand what I was saying, but somehow despite this, he gave me the kind of guidance that I think everyone craves. Thank you, Mike. For my own part, the horizons of my interests are closing in on me these days, the energy for reading new theories and philosophies has almost dried up. I am reading many more novels than treatises these days. So it is doubtless timely to extend my thanks to all the wonderful correspondents on xmca who have given me a hand up over and over down the years. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 25/10/2016 4:35 AM, mike cole wrote: > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for me > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and develop > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via an > authorized journal. > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics that > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the journal, > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid exchange > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > interests. > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the world, > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving the > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" has > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke the > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment for > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies the > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > Thus spake > > mike > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Oct 24 19:10:20 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 20:10:20 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Even as a relative youngster (~10 yr old), my debt to Mike (and XMCA) is far greater than could be even approached in a comment, so I'll leave it at that and instead try to contribute to the conversation going forward, particularly David's intractable problem - the second of Mike's concerns (and I should add that I see the first problem as being just as intractable, only I have no clue of how to help with that one - shame since I suspect that I'm part of the problem...). The second problem - of never really building anything in terms of meaningful/useful concepts - seems to me to be a problem of the interdisciplinary nature of the listserve. As one example, David Kellogg and I have had some of this difficulty. Despite being very close in a number of ways (including, of course, an interest in CHAT, an interest in language in the classroom, and having spent two months researching together this past summer), there were some fundamental hurdles that we encountered when working together. Most notable was the hurdle of language about language (yes, "metalanguage" if you must). David hails from the Halliday-ian tradition and I come from the Silverstein-ian tradition and each of these traditions have different ways of talking about language that make it difficult for us to carry on any kind of high level conversation. Case and point, when lecturing to the same group of students this past summer I thought I was helping clarify what David meant by "indexicality" by providing some examples. But it turned out that I was offering an entirely different definition for the term that threw things out of whack for our students. Simple put, our concept of "indexicality" was not shared. Now, if crossing boundaries is that difficult for two very like-minded scholars, then how much more difficult is it to be able to do this work across disciplinary lines that would include psychologists and sociologists and others? So, I hate to be a naysayer but I wonder how it could possibly work. But then I am reminded that it has worked for almost 40 years and at times it has been highly productive (I've had conversations with members off-line who have mentioned times when there was consistent and sustained high level work - beyond mere chaining - happening on the listserve). So my question to the mature XMCA-philes is: how did it work in the best of times? Was the make-up of the listserve different - perhaps less disciplinarily varied (I'm guessing not since I know that biologists were on the list back in the day - e.g., Tomasello). Was it a smaller community? How did you deal with the trouble of disparate training and backgrounds and languages? How did it work when it worked at its best? And I suppose that we could ask the mature XMCA-philes the same question about the involvement of women on the listserve. I'd love to hear thoughts. -greg On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > V. funny David. I was going to wait for the 5 year olds to start speaking, > but I'll put my "thank you" in here now, seeing as I've been mentioned. > Actually, as I recall, I started my questioning on the basis of putting a > table of comparisons together. :) > > I think the points Mike made can be turned over a number of times -- > perhaps the repetition is part of the longevity, though I have no idea > where this bloke boundary is, so assume I must be a regular trespasser in > order to traipse out a point or two. > > Thanks Mike. > > Best, > Huw > > On 24 October 2016 at 23:30, David Kellogg wrote: > > > An excellent example of sociogenetic regression--Mike abandons > > husbandry and reverts to a form of hunting and gathering, viz. > fly-fishing. > > > > On the first problem--the mansplaining blokey-ness of xmca. I think this > at > > least partly solved in the make-up the editorial committee of the > journal. > > One might object that editing is really an administrative function, and > so > > this is yet another example of the feminization of lowly roles. I think > > that is not true generally and certainly not true at MCA: I can remember, > > actually, when a whole genre of articles (the shorter pieces) could be > > suddenly abolished by editorial fiat. And, as Mike says, xmca is really, > at > > bottom, a forum for the discussion of provocative articles in MCA. > > > > The second problem seems more intractable to me, but for that very > reason I > > think it is probably less specific to xmca. Instead of managing to build > > vertical knowledge structures, as in the natural sciences, with each > layer > > resting on and in principle reducible to the lower layer, social > scientists > > tend to create horizontal ones, with their own tribal rules, rites of > > passage, and above all their own forms of discourse. Interestingly, the > > kind of "interdisciplinarity" that MCA has always encourages, based on > very > > specific topics but subtended by a vast body of all embracing theory, > seems > > to exacerbate the segmentary mode rather than ameliorate it. Not sure > why. > > > > Huw tries to set up points of comparison that might actually enable > > inter-tribal cooperation at least between closely allied groups of > > CHATniks (psychology, social process, cultural factors in the work of > > Vygotsky, Galperin, Leontiev, Davydov, Wertsch, Rogoff and Matusov, > > Engstrom). That, I think, is a step in the direction of thematic unity, > and > > transdisciplinarity. It's really thematic unity that holds together the > > natural sciences (that is, the idea that everything can be studied as a > > form of matter, or as a chemical, or as a life form, etc.), and its > > transdisciplinarity that makes lasting alliances and fixed concepts > > possible. > > > > Something for Mike to ruminate about while he's off fly-fishing. > > Mike's skill as a sheepdog always did owe something to his ability to get > > into a sheepskin. > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > Thank you very much for your contributions and your tireless leadership > > > for the growth of this community. As a member of this xmca list, as > one > > > of the former editors of MCA, and a contributor of LCHC Newsletter, I > > have > > > learned a lot from you and others in this community. This list > remains a > > > significant part of my life that I follow in anchoring my work and > > > checking on like-minded colleagues. Most importantly though, all > > > throughout my career I felt a special sense of belonging to this > > community > > > that has accepted me for who I am and what I am able to contribute. > > Thank > > > you! > > > > > > In gratitude and solidarity, ag > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > > College of Education M/C 147 > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, October 24, 2016 12:35 pm, mike cole wrote: > > > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in > > the > > > > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come > > for > > > > me > > > > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new > editorial > > > > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie > > > > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as > > > > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new > > > > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" > > for > > > > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > > > > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and > > > develop > > > > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the > > journal. > > > > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and > public > > > > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying > > via > > > > an > > > > authorized journal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics > > > > that > > > > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the > semiosphere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral > > role, > > > > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum > Mediator*. > > > > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later > career > > in > > > > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this > > international > > > > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and > the > > > > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the > > > > journal, > > > > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid > > > exchange > > > > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > > > > interests. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > > > > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words > > can > > > > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the > > > world, > > > > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote > > its > > > > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the > > future > > > > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the > > years. > > > > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of > the > > > > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up > proving > > > the > > > > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy > talk" > > > > has > > > > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set > of > > > > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more > > like > > > > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > > > > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > > > > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > > > > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while > we > > > > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that > evoke > > > the > > > > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and > our > > > > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive > environment > > > > for > > > > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > > > > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that > identifies > > > > the > > > > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus spake > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > > College of Education M/C 147 > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 24 19:58:24 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 19:58:24 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg-- With respect to your questions and speculations. I suggest that here it would be useful for those interested in seeking answers to begin with the archives we have been seeking to piece together that are products of analysis of the discourse. An easy gateway to your particular question is at http://lchc.ucsd.edu/archives if you go down toward the bottom of page and find the articles by Gack and Finkelstein Ekblad & Lang Yet to be exploited is the archive of xmca discussion that is there for the picking by aspiring discourse analysts and various sorts of other interested parties. relying on post hoc, half century old, memories of that tangle are unlikely to provide reliable road marks. But fun to engage in. :-) mike On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 7:10 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Even as a relative youngster (~10 yr old), my debt to Mike (and XMCA) is > far greater than could be even approached in a comment, so I'll leave it at > that and instead try to contribute to the conversation going forward, > particularly David's intractable problem - the second of Mike's concerns > (and I should add that I see the first problem as being just as > intractable, only I have no clue of how to help with that one - shame since > I suspect that I'm part of the problem...). > > The second problem - of never really building anything in terms of > meaningful/useful concepts - seems to me to be a problem of the > interdisciplinary nature of the listserve. > > As one example, David Kellogg and I have had some of this difficulty. > Despite being very close in a number of ways (including, of course, an > interest in CHAT, an interest in language in the classroom, and having > spent two months researching together this past summer), there were some > fundamental hurdles that we encountered when working together. Most notable > was the hurdle of language about language (yes, "metalanguage" if you > must). David hails from the Halliday-ian tradition and I come from the > Silverstein-ian tradition and each of these traditions have different ways > of talking about language that make it difficult for us to carry on any > kind of high level conversation. Case and point, when lecturing to the same > group of students this past summer I thought I was helping clarify what > David meant by "indexicality" by providing some examples. But it turned out > that I was offering an entirely different definition for the term that > threw things out of whack for our students. Simple put, our concept of > "indexicality" was not shared. > > Now, if crossing boundaries is that difficult for two very like-minded > scholars, then how much more difficult is it to be able to do this work > across disciplinary lines that would include psychologists and sociologists > and others? > > So, I hate to be a naysayer but I wonder how it could possibly work. > > But then I am reminded that it has worked for almost 40 years and at times > it has been highly productive (I've had conversations with members off-line > who have mentioned times when there was consistent and sustained high level > work - beyond mere chaining - happening on the listserve). > > So my question to the mature XMCA-philes is: how did it work in the best of > times? Was the make-up of the listserve different - perhaps less > disciplinarily varied (I'm guessing not since I know that biologists were > on the list back in the day - e.g., Tomasello). Was it a smaller community? > How did you deal with the trouble of disparate training and backgrounds and > languages? > > How did it work when it worked at its best? > > And I suppose that we could ask the mature XMCA-philes the same question > about the involvement of women on the listserve. > > I'd love to hear thoughts. > -greg > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > V. funny David. I was going to wait for the 5 year olds to start > speaking, > > but I'll put my "thank you" in here now, seeing as I've been mentioned. > > Actually, as I recall, I started my questioning on the basis of putting a > > table of comparisons together. :) > > > > I think the points Mike made can be turned over a number of times -- > > perhaps the repetition is part of the longevity, though I have no idea > > where this bloke boundary is, so assume I must be a regular trespasser in > > order to traipse out a point or two. > > > > Thanks Mike. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 24 October 2016 at 23:30, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > > An excellent example of sociogenetic regression--Mike abandons > > > husbandry and reverts to a form of hunting and gathering, viz. > > fly-fishing. > > > > > > On the first problem--the mansplaining blokey-ness of xmca. I think > this > > at > > > least partly solved in the make-up the editorial committee of the > > journal. > > > One might object that editing is really an administrative function, and > > so > > > this is yet another example of the feminization of lowly roles. I think > > > that is not true generally and certainly not true at MCA: I can > remember, > > > actually, when a whole genre of articles (the shorter pieces) could be > > > suddenly abolished by editorial fiat. And, as Mike says, xmca is > really, > > at > > > bottom, a forum for the discussion of provocative articles in MCA. > > > > > > The second problem seems more intractable to me, but for that very > > reason I > > > think it is probably less specific to xmca. Instead of managing to > build > > > vertical knowledge structures, as in the natural sciences, with each > > layer > > > resting on and in principle reducible to the lower layer, social > > scientists > > > tend to create horizontal ones, with their own tribal rules, rites of > > > passage, and above all their own forms of discourse. Interestingly, the > > > kind of "interdisciplinarity" that MCA has always encourages, based on > > very > > > specific topics but subtended by a vast body of all embracing theory, > > seems > > > to exacerbate the segmentary mode rather than ameliorate it. Not sure > > why. > > > > > > Huw tries to set up points of comparison that might actually enable > > > inter-tribal cooperation at least between closely allied groups of > > > CHATniks (psychology, social process, cultural factors in the work of > > > Vygotsky, Galperin, Leontiev, Davydov, Wertsch, Rogoff and Matusov, > > > Engstrom). That, I think, is a step in the direction of thematic unity, > > and > > > transdisciplinarity. It's really thematic unity that holds together the > > > natural sciences (that is, the idea that everything can be studied as a > > > form of matter, or as a chemical, or as a life form, etc.), and its > > > transdisciplinarity that makes lasting alliances and fixed concepts > > > possible. > > > > > > Something for Mike to ruminate about while he's off fly-fishing. > > > Mike's skill as a sheepdog always did owe something to his ability to > get > > > into a sheepskin. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for your contributions and your tireless > leadership > > > > for the growth of this community. As a member of this xmca list, as > > one > > > > of the former editors of MCA, and a contributor of LCHC Newsletter, I > > > have > > > > learned a lot from you and others in this community. This list > > remains a > > > > significant part of my life that I follow in anchoring my work and > > > > checking on like-minded colleagues. Most importantly though, all > > > > throughout my career I felt a special sense of belonging to this > > > community > > > > that has accepted me for who I am and what I am able to contribute. > > > Thank > > > > you! > > > > > > > > In gratitude and solidarity, ag > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > > > College of Education M/C 147 > > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, October 24, 2016 12:35 pm, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now > in > > > the > > > > > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has > come > > > for > > > > > me > > > > > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new > > editorial > > > > > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, > Bonnie > > > > > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over > as > > > > > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a > new > > > > > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special > projects" > > > for > > > > > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what > David > > > > > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and > > > > develop > > > > > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the > > > journal. > > > > > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and > > public > > > > > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of > replying > > > via > > > > > an > > > > > authorized journal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of > topics > > > > > that > > > > > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the > > semiosphere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral > > > role, > > > > > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum > > Mediator*. > > > > > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later > > career > > > in > > > > > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this > > > international > > > > > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and > > the > > > > > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the > > > > > journal, > > > > > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid > > > > exchange > > > > > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > > > > > interests. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my > adult > > > > > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than > words > > > can > > > > > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the > > > > world, > > > > > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to > promote > > > its > > > > > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the > > > future > > > > > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the > > > years. > > > > > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of > > the > > > > > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up > > proving > > > > the > > > > > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy > > talk" > > > > > has > > > > > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad > set > > of > > > > > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more > > > like > > > > > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > > > > > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > > > > > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > > > > > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while > > we > > > > > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that > > evoke > > > > the > > > > > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and > > our > > > > > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive > > environment > > > > > for > > > > > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > > > > > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that > > identifies > > > > > the > > > > > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus spake > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > > > College of Education M/C 147 > > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Mon Oct 24 20:41:57 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 03:41:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> Mike, all, thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community like xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write in a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from which I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, and a little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how important your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much respect you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a very important sense is giving us freedom. Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the others. For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca and anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns from the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing with xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that xmca has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. Thanks, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Chuck Bazerman Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting thoughts and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have the leisure and pleasure of lurking. Best, Chuck From vygotsky@unm.edu Mon Oct 24 22:39:34 2016 From: vygotsky@unm.edu (Vera John-Steiner) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 23:39:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: <5bf3e42f-337a-6351-ff67-5a1446cf2553@mira.net> References: <5bf3e42f-337a-6351-ff67-5a1446cf2553@mira.net> Message-ID: <015a01d22e82$2db02370$89106a50$@edu> Dear Mike, It is hard to say "thank you" to a person who has given so much to so many of us. Your commitment to our community which you have constructed, encouraged,led, and at times, gently chided,is unparalleled. I join those who have already written and those who are still trying to find the words to express our collective and personal gratitude for keeping the discourse alive. You have given many of us an intellectual home, and encouraged us to believe that at a time when dignified exchange of ideas and debate are rare, it is still possible, when ably nourished. Warmest wishes for a slowing down time. Gratefully, Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 5:31 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change I will add my appreciation to what others have said, ... but words almost fail me. No-one, no-one in my life has taught me as much as Mike Cole, and dare I say that if I managed a little real development late in life it was thanks to Mike Cole and this amazing list. The amount of work which goes into the kind of care Mike has given to moderating this list and personal correspondence is breathtaking and I will be forever grateful for that. And when I refer to what Mike "taught" me, this was almost always only by creating expectations. I think very often Mike didn't even understand what I was saying, but somehow despite this, he gave me the kind of guidance that I think everyone craves. Thank you, Mike. For my own part, the horizons of my interests are closing in on me these days, the energy for reading new theories and philosophies has almost dried up. I am reading many more novels than treatises these days. So it is doubtless timely to extend my thanks to all the wonderful correspondents on xmca who have given me a hand up over and over down the years. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 25/10/2016 4:35 AM, mike cole wrote: > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in > the capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has > come for me to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the > new editorial team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer > Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia > Gajdamashko) has taken over as editors, and begun the process of > carrying the enterprise into a new generation. I will remain as a kind > of "editor for special projects" for the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and > develop discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and > public recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of > replying via an authorized journal. > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics > that intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral > role, and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career > in Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this > international experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. > Alfredo and the editors are considering a variety of options for the > future of the journal, including importantly, its status as a new > medium promoting rapid exchange of the news between otherwise isolated > scholars with complementary interests. > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words > can suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in > the world, so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way > to promote its reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's > reminder that the future of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of > the participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up > proving the rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. > Academic "guy talk" has dominated. Understanding and, if possible, > re-mediating that sad set of circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more > like chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov > - Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke > the most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and > our sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive > environment for the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a > broad set of principles/empirical embodiments and a research program > that identifies the limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > Thus spake > > mike > > From manfred.holodynski@uni-muenster.de Mon Oct 24 23:06:32 2016 From: manfred.holodynski@uni-muenster.de (Holodynski, Manfred) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:06:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change Message-ID: <343DEDD5EDE9ED46B4B215341514DD5801456C8927@zivexdag4.wwu.de> Dear Mike, Your announced stepping back makes me feel sad - when I may say it in this frank word. It reminds me that our personal scientific engagement is not a linear line of ever increasing progress, but has its own personal life cycle with its successful projects but also unfinished road works. So, let me stop for a moment and say Thank You for your pioneering work and you inspiring engagement in the field of Cultural Historical Activity Theory and for XMCA and MCA. Although I have been not an active contributor of XMCA, I have followed the contributions in XMCA and MCA that get me thinking about the proposed ideas, concepts and empirical studies. You mentioned the time for a generational change. I think this is indeed what has to take shape and organized and I urgently hope that the scientific future of CHAT and XMCA will not lay in a constantly repeating exegesis of the canonical articles of the classical authors, but inspiring new applications of the principles of CHAT and especially their empirical foundation. Nevertheless, I noticed with great pleasure that you will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for MCA and will continue to participate n XMCA. :-) Best Manfred Prof. Dr. Manfred Holodynski University of M?nster Department of Psychology Manfred.holodynski@uni-muenster.de -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Im Auftrag von mike cole Gesendet: Montag, 24. Oktober 2016 19:36 An: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity ; lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Betreff: [Xmca-l] Time for a Generational Change Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for me to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and develop discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via an authorized journal. The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics that intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the journal, including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid exchange of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary interests. My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the world, so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving the rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" has dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of circumstances seems like a major task for the future. Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke the most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment for the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies the limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. Thus spake mike From leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com Mon Oct 24 23:17:03 2016 From: leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com (Leif Strandberg) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:17:03 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B7FD3F1-33B9-47E9-9ED9-338412504750@telia.com> Dear Mike, You and XMCA has been My universities, as Maxim Gorky wrote. Thanks for all the lessons and exciting activity you have been responsible for. Leif Sweden 24 okt 2016 kl. 21:36 skrev PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly : > Hi Mike again- > good all days?Let?s keep remembering the best part of them . And let's > continue to open side tracks to overcome obstacles, as you did. > > Sorry to see that Springer has closed the link. Thank you for letting me > know.I attach here our introduction to the issue. And I?ll be happy to > forward the chapters (one or all), if asked to. > > Best greetings > Anne-Nelly > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : on behalf of mike cole > > R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date : lundi, 24 octobre 2016 21:27 > ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Objet : [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Hi Anne-Nelly -- > > The nice thing about the newsletter was that we did not have to put up with > reviewing hassles of the sort discussed on xmca a few days ago. But of > course, it didn't count for careers, so Yrjo pushed us into formal > publications. Ah, for the good old days! :-)) > > I tried to reach the Springer article by when I clicked on that link, it > told me that I could pay 39+$ to read it! Lets hope my library can do > better. > > mike > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 12:07 PM, PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly < > Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote: > >> Dear Mike, >> For an incredible number of years (34?), I have enjoyed following your >> impulses, seeing growing the network that you created around The >> Quarterly >> Newsletter of the Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition; then came >> your creative socio-technical innovations (yours was the first electronic >> list that I have ever been affiliated to); and MCA, XMCA, etc. >> Many many thanks Mike. >> >> Amiti?s, >> Anne-Nelly >> >> >> Prof. em. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont >> Institut de psychologie et ?ducation Facult? des lettres et sciences >> humaines >> Universit? de Neuch?tel >> Espace L. Agassiz 1, CH- 2000 Neuch?tel (Switzerland) >> http://www2.unine.ch/ipe/publications/anne_nelly_perret_clermont >> >> New >> publication: "Educational settings as interwoven socio-material >> orderings?.Springerhas just offered open access to our recent special >> issue of the European Journal of Psychology of Education - you are >> welcome >> to take a look & share thislink with colleagues & students: >> http://link.springer.com/journal/10212/31/1/page/1?wt_ >> mc=10.CON434.SI_Edu_E >> UPE >> >> >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : on behalf of mike cole >> >> R?pondre ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Date : lundi, 24 octobre 2016 19:35 >> ? : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" , >> "lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" >> Objet : [Xmca-l] Time for a Generational Change >> >> Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. >> >> >> >> Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the >> capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for >> me >> to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial >> team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie >> Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as >> editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new >> generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for >> the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. >> >> >> >> But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David >> Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and >> develop >> discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. >> The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public >> recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via >> an >> authorized journal. >> >> >> >> The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics >> that >> intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. >> >> >> >> Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, >> and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. >> Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in >> Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international >> experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the >> editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the >> journal, >> including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid >> exchange >> of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary >> interests. >> >> >> >> My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult >> education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can >> suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the >> world, >> so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its >> reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future >> of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. >> >> >> >> As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. >> The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the >> participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving >> the >> rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" >> has >> dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of >> circumstances seems like a major task for the future. >> >> >> >> Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like >> chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - >> Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue >> triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but >> constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we >> ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke >> the >> most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our >> sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment >> for >> the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of >> principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies >> the >> limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. >> >> >> >> Thus spake >> >> mike >> >> >> > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Tue Oct 25 00:45:30 2016 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:45:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have to add my expression of profound gratitude to Mike for all he has done to model the kind of thoughtful engagement which makes XMCA so valuable to me (when I have time to surf some of the waves generated in discussions). In response to the concern about how this sort of interdisciplinary and cross-disciplinary discussion can 'work', I can only say (as have many others) that it does and has for many years. Not perhaps in building monuments of solid theory but more in providing a forum in which people can come across other ways of thinking about the things they are thinking about. While there are some, like Mike, who can almost always be found in the forum, willing to reply to whatever others have to say, there are also many others, like me, who are only able to visit occasionally but who still relish the opportunity to listen in on what people are getting excited about. I have a feeling that the focus on getting thigs done, building consecutively from post and topic to post and topic to build a higher tower, needs to be balanced with a focus on conviviality, of developing and sustaining relationships between the corporeal beings who bounce ideas around and watching out for any unhelpful behaviour (discouraging participation from certain groups or making it difficult for new voices to be heard). I have always been awed by Mike's ability to do just this - guiding people into being a bit kinder and a bit more supportive than they might otherwise be, largely by his own example. It may be that the babble among people who come from different cultural niches may get in the way of building the tower but my own feeling is that the babble is valuable for what it is as much as (or more than) for what it produces. Like conversations between friends, it is not so much what is discussed, let alone what is decided, that matters as what people learn from and about each other in the process of engaging in the conversation. I am sure I would not be alone in saying that what I have been able to contribute elsewhere to building ideas has been immeasurably supported and sustained by what I have learned from my visits to the forum and I really hope that XMCA will continue to offer this kind of space for not always productive chat. All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: 25 October 2016 03:58 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change Greg-- With respect to your questions and speculations. I suggest that here it would be useful for those interested in seeking answers to begin with the archives we have been seeking to piece together that are products of analysis of the discourse. An easy gateway to your particular question is at http://lchc.ucsd.edu/archives if you go down toward the bottom of page and find the articles by Gack and Finkelstein Ekblad & Lang Yet to be exploited is the archive of xmca discussion that is there for the picking by aspiring discourse analysts and various sorts of other interested parties. relying on post hoc, half century old, memories of that tangle are unlikely to provide reliable road marks. But fun to engage in. :-) mike On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 7:10 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Even as a relative youngster (~10 yr old), my debt to Mike (and XMCA) > is far greater than could be even approached in a comment, so I'll > leave it at that and instead try to contribute to the conversation > going forward, particularly David's intractable problem - the second > of Mike's concerns (and I should add that I see the first problem as > being just as intractable, only I have no clue of how to help with > that one - shame since I suspect that I'm part of the problem...). > > The second problem - of never really building anything in terms of > meaningful/useful concepts - seems to me to be a problem of the > interdisciplinary nature of the listserve. > > As one example, David Kellogg and I have had some of this difficulty. > Despite being very close in a number of ways (including, of course, an > interest in CHAT, an interest in language in the classroom, and having > spent two months researching together this past summer), there were > some fundamental hurdles that we encountered when working together. > Most notable was the hurdle of language about language (yes, > "metalanguage" if you must). David hails from the Halliday-ian > tradition and I come from the Silverstein-ian tradition and each of > these traditions have different ways of talking about language that > make it difficult for us to carry on any kind of high level > conversation. Case and point, when lecturing to the same group of > students this past summer I thought I was helping clarify what David > meant by "indexicality" by providing some examples. But it turned out > that I was offering an entirely different definition for the term that > threw things out of whack for our students. Simple put, our concept of "indexicality" was not shared. > > Now, if crossing boundaries is that difficult for two very like-minded > scholars, then how much more difficult is it to be able to do this > work across disciplinary lines that would include psychologists and > sociologists and others? > > So, I hate to be a naysayer but I wonder how it could possibly work. > > But then I am reminded that it has worked for almost 40 years and at > times it has been highly productive (I've had conversations with > members off-line who have mentioned times when there was consistent > and sustained high level work - beyond mere chaining - happening on the listserve). > > So my question to the mature XMCA-philes is: how did it work in the > best of times? Was the make-up of the listserve different - perhaps > less disciplinarily varied (I'm guessing not since I know that > biologists were on the list back in the day - e.g., Tomasello). Was it a smaller community? > How did you deal with the trouble of disparate training and > backgrounds and languages? > > How did it work when it worked at its best? > > And I suppose that we could ask the mature XMCA-philes the same > question about the involvement of women on the listserve. > > I'd love to hear thoughts. > -greg > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > V. funny David. I was going to wait for the 5 year olds to start > speaking, > > but I'll put my "thank you" in here now, seeing as I've been mentioned. > > Actually, as I recall, I started my questioning on the basis of > > putting a table of comparisons together. :) > > > > I think the points Mike made can be turned over a number of times -- > > perhaps the repetition is part of the longevity, though I have no > > idea where this bloke boundary is, so assume I must be a regular > > trespasser in order to traipse out a point or two. > > > > Thanks Mike. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 24 October 2016 at 23:30, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > > An excellent example of sociogenetic regression--Mike abandons > > > husbandry and reverts to a form of hunting and gathering, viz. > > fly-fishing. > > > > > > On the first problem--the mansplaining blokey-ness of xmca. I > > > think > this > > at > > > least partly solved in the make-up the editorial committee of the > > journal. > > > One might object that editing is really an administrative > > > function, and > > so > > > this is yet another example of the feminization of lowly roles. I > > > think that is not true generally and certainly not true at MCA: I > > > can > remember, > > > actually, when a whole genre of articles (the shorter pieces) > > > could be suddenly abolished by editorial fiat. And, as Mike says, > > > xmca is > really, > > at > > > bottom, a forum for the discussion of provocative articles in MCA. > > > > > > The second problem seems more intractable to me, but for that very > > reason I > > > think it is probably less specific to xmca. Instead of managing to > build > > > vertical knowledge structures, as in the natural sciences, with > > > each > > layer > > > resting on and in principle reducible to the lower layer, social > > scientists > > > tend to create horizontal ones, with their own tribal rules, rites > > > of passage, and above all their own forms of discourse. > > > Interestingly, the kind of "interdisciplinarity" that MCA has > > > always encourages, based on > > very > > > specific topics but subtended by a vast body of all embracing > > > theory, > > seems > > > to exacerbate the segmentary mode rather than ameliorate it. Not > > > sure > > why. > > > > > > Huw tries to set up points of comparison that might actually > > > enable inter-tribal cooperation at least between closely allied > > > groups of CHATniks (psychology, social process, cultural factors > > > in the work of Vygotsky, Galperin, Leontiev, Davydov, Wertsch, > > > Rogoff and Matusov, Engstrom). That, I think, is a step in the > > > direction of thematic unity, > > and > > > transdisciplinarity. It's really thematic unity that holds > > > together the natural sciences (that is, the idea that everything > > > can be studied as a form of matter, or as a chemical, or as a life > > > form, etc.), and its transdisciplinarity that makes lasting > > > alliances and fixed concepts possible. > > > > > > Something for Mike to ruminate about while he's off fly-fishing. > > > Mike's skill as a sheepdog always did owe something to his ability > > > to > get > > > into a sheepskin. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for your contributions and your tireless > leadership > > > > for the growth of this community. As a member of this xmca > > > > list, as > > one > > > > of the former editors of MCA, and a contributor of LCHC > > > > Newsletter, I > > > have > > > > learned a lot from you and others in this community. This list > > remains a > > > > significant part of my life that I follow in anchoring my work > > > > and checking on like-minded colleagues. Most importantly > > > > though, all throughout my career I felt a special sense of > > > > belonging to this > > > community > > > > that has accepted me for who I am and what I am able to contribute. > > > Thank > > > > you! > > > > > > > > In gratitude and solidarity, ag > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > > University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 > > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, October 24, 2016 12:35 pm, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now > in > > > the > > > > > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has > come > > > for > > > > > me > > > > > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new > > editorial > > > > > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, > Bonnie > > > > > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over > as > > > > > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a > new > > > > > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special > projects" > > > for > > > > > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what > David > > > > > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and > > > > develop > > > > > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the > > > journal. > > > > > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and > > public > > > > > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of > replying > > > via > > > > > an > > > > > authorized journal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of > topics > > > > > that > > > > > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the > > semiosphere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral > > > role, > > > > > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum > > Mediator*. > > > > > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later > > career > > > in > > > > > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this > > > international > > > > > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and > > the > > > > > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the > > > > > journal, > > > > > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid > > > > exchange > > > > > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > > > > > interests. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my > adult > > > > > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than > words > > > can > > > > > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the > > > > world, > > > > > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to > promote > > > its > > > > > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the > > > future > > > > > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the > > > years. > > > > > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of > > the > > > > > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up > > proving > > > > the > > > > > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy > > talk" > > > > > has > > > > > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad > set > > of > > > > > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more > > > like > > > > > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > > > > > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > > > > > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > > > > > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while > > we > > > > > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that > > evoke > > > > the > > > > > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and > > our > > > > > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive > > environment > > > > > for > > > > > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > > > > > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that > > identifies > > > > > the > > > > > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus spake > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > > > College of Education M/C 147 > > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From gutierkd@gmail.com Tue Oct 25 01:50:12 2016 From: gutierkd@gmail.com (Kris Gutierrez) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 01:50:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: <015a01d22e82$2db02370$89106a50$@edu> References: <5bf3e42f-337a-6351-ff67-5a1446cf2553@mira.net> <015a01d22e82$2db02370$89106a50$@edu> Message-ID: <051F2C97-8516-4AFF-B6E0-DB286A893B9E@gmail.com> Vera, you said it beautifully, thank you. And while Mike tells me every chance he gets to "slow down," it?s your turn now, Mike. I know you are writing more and more but hope you also get to spend more time in your ?garden??both literally and metaphorically. This is personal but am confident my sentiments are shared widely. Despite my complaints to you about how gendered this space is, it was your voice and posts that I continually looked for and would read with care, save for another read later, and then would call you when I wanted more!. You always modeled on xmca, in the Lab and in our co-taught classes, how to provoke, inspire, and support all at the same time, as well as to understand why it is so important to seek and know the history of ideas, to cross boundaries and borders, and to be dissatisfied with anything less than the best we could do, especially with and for others. XMCA benefitted from your tireless devotion to expansive forms of learning and care. You are a true community organizer. But no one, as Andy also said, has taught me more; not even a close second. From my ugly written drafts to my best prepared talks, you were there in person as was your work, ideas, and critique (and sometimes scolding:), in ways you also have been on this space for so many generations of scholars. You are the only person I know who could give a ?two word? review of a draft that would trigger a complete revision! I share this here because the same thing was true on XMCA; it was your brief but ever thoughtful, packed comments and questions that so many of us appreciated on XMCA. You never made XMCA your stage; instead, it was our intellectual playground (even for the lurkers). A good model to follow! What a legacy XMCA, MCA, LCHC, 5thD, and etc. etc. Thank you for inviting us always into these transformative spaces and thank you for making XMCA such an indispensable everyday resource. I know you will still be posting and pushing us to think on XMCA. There is a lot more work to do and you have helped set the agenda. I am hopeful about the next generation of scholars who will push us to imagine and re-imagine (in the Mike and LCHC sense) this space in ways that that continue what you set out to do, as well as push us to engage in the never-ending task of making this activity system (as in all activity systems) more collective, inclusive, equitable, expansive, playful, and humanistic. We will continue to learn with you! Mil gracias, Mike. Un abrazo fuerte! Kris (excuse typos) Kris D. Guti?rrez Carol Liu Professor Graduate School of Education University of California, Berkeley 5629 Tolman Hall Berkeley, CA 94720-1670 gutierrkd@berkeley.edu > On Oct 24, 2016, at 10:39 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > > Dear Mike, > > It is hard to say "thank you" to a person who has given so much to so many of us. Your commitment to our community which you have constructed, encouraged,led, and at times, gently chided,is unparalleled. I join those who have already written and those who are still trying to find the words to express our collective and personal gratitude for keeping the discourse alive. You have given many of us an intellectual home, and encouraged us to believe that at a time when dignified exchange of ideas and debate are rare, it is still possible, when ably nourished. > > Warmest wishes for a slowing down time. > > Gratefully, > > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 5:31 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > I will add my appreciation to what others have said, ... but words almost fail me. No-one, no-one in my life has taught me as much as Mike Cole, and dare I say that if I managed a little real development late in life it was thanks to Mike Cole and this amazing list. The amount of work which goes into the kind of care Mike has given to moderating this list and personal correspondence is breathtaking and I will be forever grateful for that. And when I refer to what Mike "taught" me, this was almost always only by creating expectations. I think very often Mike didn't even understand what I was saying, but somehow despite this, he gave me the kind of guidance that I think everyone craves. Thank you, Mike. > > For my own part, the horizons of my interests are closing in on me these days, the energy for reading new theories and philosophies has almost dried up. I am reading many more novels than treatises these days. So it is doubtless timely to extend my thanks to all the wonderful correspondents on xmca who have given me a hand up over and over down the years. > > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 25/10/2016 4:35 AM, mike cole wrote: >> Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. >> >> >> >> Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in >> the capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has >> come for me to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the >> new editorial team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer >> Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia >> Gajdamashko) has taken over as editors, and begun the process of >> carrying the enterprise into a new generation. I will remain as a kind >> of "editor for special projects" for the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. >> >> >> >> But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David >> Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and >> develop discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. >> The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and >> public recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of >> replying via an authorized journal. >> >> >> >> The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics >> that intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. >> >> >> >> Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral >> role, and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. >> Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career >> in Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this >> international experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. >> Alfredo and the editors are considering a variety of options for the >> future of the journal, including importantly, its status as a new >> medium promoting rapid exchange of the news between otherwise isolated >> scholars with complementary interests. >> >> >> >> My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult >> education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words >> can suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in >> the world, so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way >> to promote its reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's >> reminder that the future of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. >> >> >> >> As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. >> The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of >> the participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up >> proving the rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. >> Academic "guy talk" has dominated. Understanding and, if possible, >> re-mediating that sad set of circumstances seems like a major task for the future. >> >> >> >> Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more >> like chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov >> - Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue >> triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but >> constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we >> ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke >> the most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and >> our sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive >> environment for the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a >> broad set of principles/empirical embodiments and a research program >> that identifies the limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. >> >> >> >> Thus spake >> >> mike >> >> > > > From vijith123@gmail.com Tue Oct 25 03:06:59 2016 From: vijith123@gmail.com (vijith k) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:36:59 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: <051F2C97-8516-4AFF-B6E0-DB286A893B9E@gmail.com> References: <5bf3e42f-337a-6351-ff67-5a1446cf2553@mira.net> <015a01d22e82$2db02370$89106a50$@edu> <051F2C97-8516-4AFF-B6E0-DB286A893B9E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All, I joined the group three four days back as suggested by Michael Cole!! Now understand that I am at a historical juncture. I can imagine what would have been the engagement throughout the years by reading the comments are being posted. I see the sea of intellectual engagement converge to emotional drops and feel happy for knowledge. I will also claim the ?intellectual attention? I got from him through his few mails as reply to my queries. Vijith K Asst. Professor, Department of Psychology, Govt. Arts and Science College Mankada, Kerala, India vijith123@gmail.com On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:20 PM, Kris Gutierrez wrote: > Vera, you said it beautifully, thank you. And while Mike tells me every > chance he gets to "slow down," it?s your turn now, Mike. I know you are > writing more and more but hope you also get to spend more time in your > ?garden??both literally and metaphorically. > > This is personal but am confident my sentiments are shared widely. > > Despite my complaints to you about how gendered this space is, it was your > voice and posts that I continually looked for and would read with care, > save for another read later, and then would call you when I wanted more!. > You always modeled on xmca, in the Lab and in our co-taught classes, how to > provoke, inspire, and support all at the same time, as well as to > understand why it is so important to seek and know the history of ideas, to > cross boundaries and borders, and to be dissatisfied with anything less > than the best we could do, especially with and for others. > > XMCA benefitted from your tireless devotion to expansive forms of learning > and care. You are a true community organizer. > > But no one, as Andy also said, has taught me more; not even a close > second. From my ugly written drafts to my best prepared talks, you were > there in person as was your work, ideas, and critique (and sometimes > scolding:), in ways you also have been on this space for so many > generations of scholars. You are the only person I know who could give a > ?two word? review of a draft that would trigger a complete revision! > > I share this here because the same thing was true on XMCA; it was your > brief but ever thoughtful, packed comments and questions that so many of us > appreciated on XMCA. You never made XMCA your stage; instead, it was our > intellectual playground (even for the lurkers). A good model to follow! > > What a legacy XMCA, MCA, LCHC, 5thD, and etc. etc. Thank you for inviting > us always into these transformative spaces and thank you for making XMCA > such an indispensable everyday resource. > > I know you will still be posting and pushing us to think on XMCA. There > is a lot more work to do and you have helped set the agenda. I am hopeful > about the next generation of scholars who will push us to imagine and > re-imagine (in the Mike and LCHC sense) this space in ways that that > continue what you set out to do, as well as push us to engage in the > never-ending task of making this activity system (as in all activity > systems) more collective, inclusive, equitable, expansive, playful, and > humanistic. > > We will continue to learn with you! > > Mil gracias, Mike. Un abrazo fuerte! Kris (excuse typos) > > > Kris D. Guti?rrez > Carol Liu Professor > Graduate School of Education > University of California, Berkeley > 5629 Tolman Hall > Berkeley, CA 94720-1670 > gutierrkd@berkeley.edu > > > > > > On Oct 24, 2016, at 10:39 PM, Vera John-Steiner > wrote: > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > It is hard to say "thank you" to a person who has given so much to so > many of us. Your commitment to our community which you have constructed, > encouraged,led, and at times, gently chided,is unparalleled. I join those > who have already written and those who are still trying to find the words > to express our collective and personal gratitude for keeping the discourse > alive. You have given many of us an intellectual home, and encouraged us to > believe that at a time when dignified exchange of ideas and debate are > rare, it is still possible, when ably nourished. > > > > Warmest wishes for a slowing down time. > > > > Gratefully, > > > > Vera > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 5:31 PM > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > I will add my appreciation to what others have said, ... but words > almost fail me. No-one, no-one in my life has taught me as much as Mike > Cole, and dare I say that if I managed a little real development late in > life it was thanks to Mike Cole and this amazing list. The amount of work > which goes into the kind of care Mike has given to moderating this list > and personal correspondence is breathtaking and I will be forever grateful > for that. And when I refer to what Mike "taught" me, this was almost always > only by creating expectations. I think very often Mike didn't even > understand what I was saying, but somehow despite this, he gave me the kind > of guidance that I think everyone craves. Thank you, Mike. > > > > For my own part, the horizons of my interests are closing in on me these > days, the energy for reading new theories and philosophies has almost dried > up. I am reading many more novels than treatises these days. So it is > doubtless timely to extend my thanks to all the wonderful correspondents on > xmca who have given me a hand up over and over down the years. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > > On 25/10/2016 4:35 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > >> > >> > >> > >> Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in > >> the capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has > >> come for me to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the > >> new editorial team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer > >> Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia > >> Gajdamashko) has taken over as editors, and begun the process of > >> carrying the enterprise into a new generation. I will remain as a kind > >> of "editor for special projects" for the journal and will continue to > participate in XMCA. > >> > >> > >> > >> But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > >> Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and > >> develop discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in > the journal. > >> The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and > >> public recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of > >> replying via an authorized journal. > >> > >> > >> > >> The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics > >> that intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the > semiosphere. > >> > >> > >> > >> Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral > >> role, and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum > Mediator*. > >> Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career > >> in Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this > >> international experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. > >> Alfredo and the editors are considering a variety of options for the > >> future of the journal, including importantly, its status as a new > >> medium promoting rapid exchange of the news between otherwise isolated > >> scholars with complementary interests. > >> > >> > >> > >> My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > >> education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words > >> can suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in > >> the world, so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way > >> to promote its reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's > >> reminder that the future of development is not predictable at the level > of everyday experience. > >> > >> > >> > >> As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. > >> The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of > >> the participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up > >> proving the rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. > >> Academic "guy talk" has dominated. Understanding and, if possible, > >> re-mediating that sad set of circumstances seems like a major task for > the future. > >> > >> > >> > >> Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more > >> like chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov > >> - Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > >> triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > >> constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > >> ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke > >> the most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and > >> our sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive > >> environment for the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a > >> broad set of principles/empirical embodiments and a research program > >> that identifies the limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of > inquiry. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thus spake > >> > >> mike > >> > >> > > > > > > > > From hans.knutagard@ingressus.se Tue Oct 25 06:01:02 2016 From: hans.knutagard@ingressus.se (=?utf-8?Q?Hans_Knutag=C3=A5rd?=) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:01:02 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <5bf3e42f-337a-6351-ff67-5a1446cf2553@mira.net> <015a01d22e82$2db02370$89106a50$@edu> <051F2C97-8516-4AFF-B6E0-DB286A893B9E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4401E782-B3E2-47A3-9C61-3A8A0910E499@ingressus.se> I would also like to take the opportunity to thank you Mike for what you have done for the cultural historical activity theory development, consolidation and expansion. Thank you for all input I have got from you, some in direct contact, some just reading in distance here on the list and elsewhere. I wish you, from my whole heart, all the best and enjoy your new direction with family and friends. You will always be a part of me. Hans from Sweden > 25 okt. 2016 kl. 12:06 skrev vijith k : > > Hi All, > > > I joined the group three four days back as suggested by Michael Cole!! Now > understand that I am at a historical juncture. I can imagine what would > have been the engagement throughout the years by reading the comments are > being posted. I see the sea of intellectual engagement converge to > emotional drops and feel happy for knowledge. > > I will also claim the ?intellectual attention? I got from him through his > few mails as reply to my queries. > > > > > Vijith K > > Asst. Professor, Department of Psychology, > > Govt. Arts and Science College Mankada, Kerala, India > > vijith123@gmail.com > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:20 PM, Kris Gutierrez wrote: > >> Vera, you said it beautifully, thank you. And while Mike tells me every >> chance he gets to "slow down," it?s your turn now, Mike. I know you are >> writing more and more but hope you also get to spend more time in your >> ?garden??both literally and metaphorically. >> >> This is personal but am confident my sentiments are shared widely. >> >> Despite my complaints to you about how gendered this space is, it was your >> voice and posts that I continually looked for and would read with care, >> save for another read later, and then would call you when I wanted more!. >> You always modeled on xmca, in the Lab and in our co-taught classes, how to >> provoke, inspire, and support all at the same time, as well as to >> understand why it is so important to seek and know the history of ideas, to >> cross boundaries and borders, and to be dissatisfied with anything less >> than the best we could do, especially with and for others. >> >> XMCA benefitted from your tireless devotion to expansive forms of learning >> and care. You are a true community organizer. >> >> But no one, as Andy also said, has taught me more; not even a close >> second. From my ugly written drafts to my best prepared talks, you were >> there in person as was your work, ideas, and critique (and sometimes >> scolding:), in ways you also have been on this space for so many >> generations of scholars. You are the only person I know who could give a >> ?two word? review of a draft that would trigger a complete revision! >> >> I share this here because the same thing was true on XMCA; it was your >> brief but ever thoughtful, packed comments and questions that so many of us >> appreciated on XMCA. You never made XMCA your stage; instead, it was our >> intellectual playground (even for the lurkers). A good model to follow! >> >> What a legacy XMCA, MCA, LCHC, 5thD, and etc. etc. Thank you for inviting >> us always into these transformative spaces and thank you for making XMCA >> such an indispensable everyday resource. >> >> I know you will still be posting and pushing us to think on XMCA. There >> is a lot more work to do and you have helped set the agenda. I am hopeful >> about the next generation of scholars who will push us to imagine and >> re-imagine (in the Mike and LCHC sense) this space in ways that that >> continue what you set out to do, as well as push us to engage in the >> never-ending task of making this activity system (as in all activity >> systems) more collective, inclusive, equitable, expansive, playful, and >> humanistic. >> >> We will continue to learn with you! >> >> Mil gracias, Mike. Un abrazo fuerte! Kris (excuse typos) >> >> >> Kris D. Guti?rrez >> Carol Liu Professor >> Graduate School of Education >> University of California, Berkeley >> 5629 Tolman Hall >> Berkeley, CA 94720-1670 >> gutierrkd@berkeley.edu >> >> >> >> >>> On Oct 24, 2016, at 10:39 PM, Vera John-Steiner >> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Mike, >>> >>> It is hard to say "thank you" to a person who has given so much to so >> many of us. Your commitment to our community which you have constructed, >> encouraged,led, and at times, gently chided,is unparalleled. I join those >> who have already written and those who are still trying to find the words >> to express our collective and personal gratitude for keeping the discourse >> alive. You have given many of us an intellectual home, and encouraged us to >> believe that at a time when dignified exchange of ideas and debate are >> rare, it is still possible, when ably nourished. >>> >>> Warmest wishes for a slowing down time. >>> >>> Gratefully, >>> >>> Vera >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ >> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 5:31 PM >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change >>> >>> I will add my appreciation to what others have said, ... but words >> almost fail me. No-one, no-one in my life has taught me as much as Mike >> Cole, and dare I say that if I managed a little real development late in >> life it was thanks to Mike Cole and this amazing list. The amount of work >> which goes into the kind of care Mike has given to moderating this list >> and personal correspondence is breathtaking and I will be forever grateful >> for that. And when I refer to what Mike "taught" me, this was almost always >> only by creating expectations. I think very often Mike didn't even >> understand what I was saying, but somehow despite this, he gave me the kind >> of guidance that I think everyone craves. Thank you, Mike. >>> >>> For my own part, the horizons of my interests are closing in on me these >> days, the energy for reading new theories and philosophies has almost dried >> up. I am reading many more novels than treatises these days. So it is >> doubtless timely to extend my thanks to all the wonderful correspondents on >> xmca who have given me a hand up over and over down the years. >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> >>> On 25/10/2016 4:35 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>> Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in >>>> the capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has >>>> come for me to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the >>>> new editorial team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer >>>> Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia >>>> Gajdamashko) has taken over as editors, and begun the process of >>>> carrying the enterprise into a new generation. I will remain as a kind >>>> of "editor for special projects" for the journal and will continue to >> participate in XMCA. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David >>>> Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and >>>> develop discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in >> the journal. >>>> The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and >>>> public recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of >>>> replying via an authorized journal. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics >>>> that intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the >> semiosphere. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral >>>> role, and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum >> Mediator*. >>>> Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career >>>> in Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this >>>> international experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. >>>> Alfredo and the editors are considering a variety of options for the >>>> future of the journal, including importantly, its status as a new >>>> medium promoting rapid exchange of the news between otherwise isolated >>>> scholars with complementary interests. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult >>>> education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words >>>> can suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in >>>> the world, so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way >>>> to promote its reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's >>>> reminder that the future of development is not predictable at the level >> of everyday experience. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. >>>> The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of >>>> the participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up >>>> proving the rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. >>>> Academic "guy talk" has dominated. Understanding and, if possible, >>>> re-mediating that sad set of circumstances seems like a major task for >> the future. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more >>>> like chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov >>>> - Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue >>>> triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but >>>> constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we >>>> ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke >>>> the most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and >>>> our sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive >>>> environment for the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a >>>> broad set of principles/empirical embodiments and a research program >>>> that identifies the limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of >> inquiry. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thus spake >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> From fran_oise2001@yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 10:37:18 2016 From: fran_oise2001@yahoo.com (Fran_oise2001) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 17:37:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1711797080.621829.1477417038733@mail.yahoo.com> Mike,You forgot the drawer in your office with all my papers and my book on Electronic Academia. That was a 3-year snapshot of some ?fantastic?action at?xmca, a while back..... circa 20 years ago....Meow... as Jay Lemke would have it now! From: mike cole To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 7:58 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change Greg-- With respect to your questions and speculations. I suggest that here it would be useful for those interested in seeking answers to begin with the archives we have been seeking to piece together that are products of analysis of the discourse. An easy gateway to your particular question is at http://lchc.ucsd.edu/archives if you go down toward the bottom of page and find the articles by Gack and Finkelstein Ekblad & Lang Yet to be exploited is the archive of xmca discussion that is there for the picking by aspiring discourse analysts and various sorts of other interested parties. relying on post hoc, half century old, memories of that tangle are unlikely to provide reliable road marks. But fun to engage in. :-) mike On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 7:10 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Even as a relative youngster (~10 yr old), my debt to Mike (and XMCA) is > far greater than could be even approached in a comment, so I'll leave it at > that and instead try to contribute to the conversation going forward, > particularly David's intractable problem - the second of Mike's concerns > (and I should add that I see the first problem as being just as > intractable, only I have no clue of how to help with that one - shame since > I suspect that I'm part of the problem...). > > The second problem - of never really building anything in terms of > meaningful/useful concepts - seems to me to be a problem of the > interdisciplinary nature of the listserve. > > As one example, David Kellogg and I have had some of this difficulty. > Despite being very close in a number of ways (including, of course, an > interest in CHAT, an interest in language in the classroom, and having > spent two months researching together this past summer), there were some > fundamental hurdles that we encountered when working together. Most notable > was the hurdle of language about language (yes, "metalanguage" if you > must). David hails from the Halliday-ian tradition and I come from the > Silverstein-ian tradition and each of these traditions have different ways > of talking about language that make it difficult for us to carry on any > kind of high level conversation. Case and point, when lecturing to the same > group of students this past summer I thought I was helping clarify what > David meant by "indexicality" by providing some examples. But it turned out > that I was offering an entirely different definition for the term that > threw things out of whack for our students. Simple put, our concept of > "indexicality" was not shared. > > Now, if crossing boundaries is that difficult for two very like-minded > scholars, then how much more difficult is it to be able to do this work > across disciplinary lines that would include psychologists and sociologists > and others? > > So, I hate to be a naysayer but I wonder how it could possibly work. > > But then I am reminded that it has worked for almost 40 years and at times > it has been highly productive (I've had conversations with members off-line > who have mentioned times when there was consistent and sustained high level > work - beyond mere chaining - happening on the listserve). > > So my question to the mature XMCA-philes is: how did it work in the best of > times? Was the make-up of the listserve different - perhaps less > disciplinarily varied (I'm guessing not since I know that biologists were > on the list back in the day - e.g., Tomasello). Was it a smaller community? > How did you deal with the trouble of disparate training and backgrounds and > languages? > > How did it work when it worked at its best? > > And I suppose that we could ask the mature XMCA-philes the same question > about the involvement of women on the listserve. > > I'd love to hear thoughts. > -greg > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > V. funny David.? I was going to wait for the 5 year olds to start > speaking, > > but I'll put my "thank you" in here now, seeing as I've been mentioned. > > Actually, as I recall, I started my questioning on the basis of putting a > > table of comparisons together. :) > > > > I think the points Mike made can be turned over a number of times -- > > perhaps the repetition is part of the longevity, though I have no idea > > where this bloke boundary is, so assume I must be a regular trespasser in > > order to traipse out a point or two. > > > > Thanks Mike. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 24 October 2016 at 23:30, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > > An excellent example of sociogenetic regression--Mike abandons > > > husbandry and reverts to a form of hunting and gathering, viz. > > fly-fishing. > > > > > > On the first problem--the mansplaining blokey-ness of xmca. I think > this > > at > > > least partly solved in the make-up the editorial committee of the > > journal. > > > One might object that editing is really an administrative function, and > > so > > > this is yet another example of the feminization of lowly roles. I think > > > that is not true generally and certainly not true at MCA: I can > remember, > > > actually, when a whole genre of articles (the shorter pieces) could be > > > suddenly abolished by editorial fiat. And, as Mike says, xmca is > really, > > at > > > bottom, a forum for the discussion of provocative articles in MCA. > > > > > > The second problem seems more intractable to me, but for that very > > reason I > > > think it is probably less specific to xmca. Instead of managing to > build > > > vertical knowledge structures, as in the natural sciences, with each > > layer > > > resting on and in principle reducible to the lower layer, social > > scientists > > > tend to create horizontal ones, with their own tribal rules, rites of > > > passage, and above all their own forms of discourse. Interestingly, the > > > kind of "interdisciplinarity" that MCA has always encourages, based on > > very > > > specific topics but subtended by a vast body of all embracing theory, > > seems > > > to exacerbate the segmentary mode rather than ameliorate it. Not sure > > why. > > > > > > Huw tries to set up points of comparison that might actually enable > > > inter-tribal cooperation at least between closely allied groups of > > > CHATniks (psychology, social process, cultural factors in the work of > > > Vygotsky, Galperin, Leontiev, Davydov, Wertsch, Rogoff and Matusov, > > > Engstrom). That, I think, is a step in the direction of thematic unity, > > and > > > transdisciplinarity. It's really thematic unity that holds together the > > > natural sciences (that is, the idea that everything can be studied as a > > > form of matter, or as a chemical, or as a life form, etc.), and its > > > transdisciplinarity that makes lasting alliances and fixed concepts > > > possible. > > > > > > Something for Mike to ruminate about while he's off fly-fishing. > > > Mike's skill as a sheepdog always did owe something to his ability to > get > > > into a sheepskin. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for your contributions and your tireless > leadership > > > > for the growth of this community.? As a member of this xmca list, as > > one > > > > of the former editors of MCA, and a contributor of LCHC Newsletter, I > > > have > > > > learned a lot from you and others in this community.? This list > > remains a > > > > significant part of my life that I follow in anchoring my work and > > > > checking on like-minded colleagues.? Most importantly though, all > > > > throughout my career I felt a special sense of belonging to this > > > community > > > > that has accepted me for who I am and what I am able to contribute. > > > Thank > > > > you! > > > > > > > > In gratitude and solidarity, ag > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > > > College of Education M/C 147 > > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, October 24, 2016 12:35 pm, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now > in > > > the > > > > > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has > come > > > for > > > > > me > > > > > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA.? At MCA the new > > editorial > > > > > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, > Bonnie > > > > > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over > as > > > > > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a > new > > > > > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special > projects" > > > for > > > > > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what > David > > > > > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and > > > > develop > > > > > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the > > > journal. > > > > > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and > > public > > > > > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of > replying > > > via > > > > > an > > > > > authorized journal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of > topics > > > > > that > > > > > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the > > semiosphere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral > > > role, > > > > > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum > > Mediator*. > > > > > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later > > career > > > in > > > > > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this > > > international > > > > > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and > > the > > > > > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the > > > > > journal, > > > > > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid > > > > exchange > > > > > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > > > > > interests. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my > adult > > > > > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than > words > > > can > > > > > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the > > > > world, > > > > > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to > promote > > > its > > > > > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the > > > future > > > > > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the > > > years. > > > > > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of > > the > > > > > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up > > proving > > > > the > > > > > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy > > talk" > > > > > has > > > > > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad > set > > of > > > > > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more > > > like > > > > > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > > > > > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > > > > > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > > > > > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while > > we > > > > > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that > > evoke > > > > the > > > > > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and > > our > > > > > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive > > environment > > > > > for > > > > > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > > > > > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that > > identifies > > > > > the > > > > > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus spake > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > > http://www.artingoncu.com/ > > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > > > College of Education M/C 147 > > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From wendy.maples@outlook.com Tue Oct 25 12:36:18 2016 From: wendy.maples@outlook.com (Wendy Maples) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 19:36:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> References: , , <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Dear Mike, As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and think about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some terrifically interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. With gratitude and very best wishes, Wendy ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change Mike, all, thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community like xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write in a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from which I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, and a little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how important your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much respect you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a very important sense is giving us freedom. Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the others. For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca and anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns from the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing with xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that xmca has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. Thanks, Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Chuck Bazerman Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting thoughts and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have the leisure and pleasure of lurking. Best, Chuck From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Oct 25 13:48:08 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 07:48:08 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Foot, Footprint, Footnote Message-ID: Greg: Here in Australia, we have a weekly seminar on Halliday and Hasan from two of Halliday's leading disciples--now both professors and (like Halliday and Hasan) married to each other. Sometimes they present and sometimes we do, but no matter who presents the seminars always end the same way, with David and Annabelle arguing about something that Halliday or Hasan once argued about. It's by far the most interesting part of the seminar, and sometimes the most useful too. So I don't think it mattered very much that we argued about indexicality in front of the kids. They probably just wondered if we were married. If I remember correctly, the problem was that I wanted to talk about what classroom observers see when they don't know any language, what they hear when they start to notice things like stress and intonation and pausing and speech rhythm, and what they understand when they finally crack the lexicogrammatical code. I thought that icons, indexes and symbols was one way to start sorting the data, and, since we're starting with data, I thought I would compare icons to flesh and blood feet, indexes to footprints on the wet sand, and symbols to a word like "foot" or "pied" or "jiao". Peirce for dummies. But useful. Now, as I understand Silverstein, he is reading Peirce because he can't stand Saussure (apparently Silverstein thinks that Saussure is anti-Semitic, for which the evidence is a little thin to say the least). For Saussure, who likes dualisms, the distinction is essentially between natural (experiential and logical) associations and non-natural (conventional, or "arbitrary") associations. Saussure incorrectly thinks that all linguistic associations are not natural (in fact, only phonological associations are not natural) and that all non-linguistic ones are natural. Silverstein points out, correctly, that there are many associations (e.g. between black people and hip hop) that are not linguistic...but not exactly natural either, and he chooses to call these indexical. Silverstein's point is correct, but his phrasing is a little problematic for what I want to say, because I want the students to be thinking about language specifically, and not the context of culture generally, comparing how much they can do without any experience of Korean culture at all with what they can do with some hypotheses based on their own language, and then comparing those with what they can do with real knowledge of the language. I'm not really making the case for the one over the other: I'm just laying out options; the actual decisions that people make will inevitably have to do with the linguistic resources at their disposal. But if I remember correctly, all we did was to set up a new set of terms. The foot is biomechanical, the footprint is indicative, and the word is signifying. That's a fairly typical social science move--when you find that someone is occupying the terminology you want to occupy, you just invent a new terminology. It explains why we have so many words for the same basic concepts. My point is that it's not a typical natural science move--in natural science you have to build on the terminology you find, not just slash, burn and move on. It seems to me that these two different tendencies are natural--that is, they are motivated, and each has strengths specific to its domain. The strength of the social science move is that it resists reductionism: social scientists resist the kind of article I read the other day in a medical journal, from a researcher who wants to "explain" the desire to learn language by a kind of functional pleasure released biochemically in the brain whenever we learn a new word. The strength of the natural science move is that it resists dualism: when you believe that biology rests on the foundation of chemistry and that chemistry rests on a foundation of physics, you live one world and not three. But just that one world is big enough to include feet, footprints and footnotes. David Kellogg Macquarie University From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Oct 25 14:00:22 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:00:22 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Esteemed Mike, I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by the other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing the dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring to bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. With great respect Henry > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples wrote: > > Dear Mike, > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and think about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some terrifically interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > Wendy > > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Mike, all, > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community like xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write in a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from which I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, and a little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how important your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much respect you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a very important sense is giving us freedom. > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the others. For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca and anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns from the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing with xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that xmca has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. Thanks, > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting thoughts > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > Best, > Chuck From lemke.jay@gmail.com Tue Oct 25 16:24:55 2016 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 16:24:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation for Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking as one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to talk with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity of intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager to hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many of us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what others were thinking. The history of this community has not been like that of specialist scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts we have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from entirely different premises. Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting benefit of us all. JAY. Jay Lemke Professor Emeritus City University of New York www.jaylemke.com On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Esteemed Mike, > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by the > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing the > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring to > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > With great respect > Henry > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > wrote: > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and think > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some terrifically > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > Wendy > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > Mike, all, > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community like > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write in > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from which > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, and a > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how important > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much respect > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a very > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the others. > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca and > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns from > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing with > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that xmca > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. > Thanks, > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting thoughts > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > Best, > > Chuck > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Oct 25 17:25:14 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 18:25:14 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Foot, Footprint, Footnote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?David, Yes I thought we got along quite well thanks to your thoughtful care and semiosic inventiveness! Perhaps that is all that is needed to make these highly interdisciplinary ventures work? -greg? On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:48 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Greg: > > Here in Australia, we have a weekly seminar on Halliday and Hasan from two > of Halliday's leading disciples--now both professors and (like Halliday and > Hasan) married to each other. Sometimes they present and sometimes we do, > but no matter who presents the seminars always end the same way, with David > and Annabelle arguing about something that Halliday or Hasan once argued > about. It's by far the most interesting part of the seminar, and sometimes > the most useful too. So I don't think it mattered very much that we argued > about indexicality in front of the kids. They probably just wondered if we > were married. > > If I remember correctly, the problem was that I wanted to talk about what > classroom observers see when they don't know any language, what they hear > when they start to notice things like stress and intonation and pausing and > speech rhythm, and what they understand when they finally crack the > lexicogrammatical code. I thought that icons, indexes and symbols was one > way to start sorting the data, and, since we're starting with data, I > thought I would compare icons to flesh and blood feet, indexes to > footprints on the wet sand, and symbols to a word like "foot" or "pied" or > "jiao". Peirce for dummies. But useful. > > Now, as I understand Silverstein, he is reading Peirce because he can't > stand Saussure (apparently Silverstein thinks that Saussure is > anti-Semitic, for which the evidence is a little thin to say the least). > For Saussure, who likes dualisms, the distinction is essentially between > natural (experiential and logical) associations and non-natural > (conventional, or "arbitrary") associations. > > Saussure incorrectly thinks that all linguistic associations are not > natural (in fact, only phonological associations are not natural) and that > all non-linguistic ones are natural. Silverstein points out, correctly, > that there are many associations (e.g. between black people and hip hop) > that are not linguistic...but not exactly natural either, and he chooses to > call these indexical. > > Silverstein's point is correct, but his phrasing is a little problematic > for what I want to say, because I want the students to be thinking about > language specifically, and not the context of culture generally, > comparing how much they can do without any experience of Korean culture at > all with what they can do with some hypotheses based on their own language, > and then comparing those with what they can do with real knowledge of the > language. I'm not really making the case for the one over the other: I'm > just laying out options; the actual decisions that people make will > inevitably have to do with the linguistic resources at their disposal. > > But if I remember correctly, all we did was to set up a new set of terms. > The foot is biomechanical, the footprint is indicative, and the word is > signifying. That's a fairly typical social science move--when you find > that someone is occupying the terminology you want to occupy, you just > invent a new terminology. It explains why we have so many words for the > same basic concepts. My point is that it's not a typical natural science > move--in natural science you have to build on the terminology you find, not > just slash, burn and move on. > > It seems to me that these two different tendencies are natural--that is, > they are motivated, and each has strengths specific to its domain. The > strength of the social science move is that it resists reductionism: social > scientists resist the kind of article I read the other day in a medical > journal, from a researcher who wants to "explain" the desire to learn > language by a kind of functional pleasure released biochemically in the > brain whenever we learn a new word. The strength of the natural science > move is that it resists dualism: when you believe that biology rests on the > foundation of chemistry and that chemistry rests on a foundation of > physics, you live one world and not three. But just that one world is big > enough to include feet, footprints and footnotes. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Oct 26 09:28:51 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 09:28:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> Mike, My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or quest through living the questions. As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our time. The question of gender brings up Franklin?s classroom where the girls know we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play they form a *clique* of superheros. Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender imbalance. The 2nd question of chaining. You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding and development of our community. Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to express my testament and gratitude. I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and forth. Here is what caught my ear. Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to converse as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which etymology might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort for oneself. Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony?s now being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing legacy AND the living questions you posed. I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the intertwining. My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience and conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. Thank you Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Jay Lemke Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation for Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking as one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to talk with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity of intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager to hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many of us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what others were thinking. The history of this community has not been like that of specialist scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts we have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from entirely different premises. Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting benefit of us all. JAY. Jay Lemke Professor Emeritus City University of New York www.jaylemke.com On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Esteemed Mike, > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by the > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing the > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring to > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > With great respect > Henry > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > wrote: > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and think > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some terrifically > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > Wendy > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > Mike, all, > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community like > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write in > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from which > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, and a > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how important > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much respect > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a very > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the others. > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca and > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns from > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing with > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that xmca > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. > Thanks, > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting thoughts > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > Best, > > Chuck > > > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Wed Oct 26 13:08:05 2016 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 20:08:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> , <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry, you reiterated Mike's pointing out two concerns; As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our time. and you discussed them as two separate issues - "gender imbalance", and "chaining", and then you illuminated chaining as - Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s criticism. first, I'm surprised that you didn't note sic, in the quote, "When men (sic) are thus seriously conversing ...". but, second, I'd like to point out that this genre of mansplaining is most often hierarchically structured, so that male dominance is maintained. if you look back at the great majority of chaining in xmca, you'll see that it is dominated by two or three males voices. and rather than, as you explain, and roughly the only way in which a man can sort things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s criticism., i suggest that it is a culturally male privileged genre, as Foucault would put it, of maintaining power, privilege and prerogative. if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively concerned along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in participation, then i think that there needs to be a recognition that the current chaining practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change Mike, My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or quest through living the questions. As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our time. The question of gender brings up Franklin?s classroom where the girls know we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play they form a *clique* of superheros. Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender imbalance. The 2nd question of chaining. You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding and development of our community. Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to express my testament and gratitude. I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and forth. Here is what caught my ear. Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to converse as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which etymology might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort for oneself. Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony?s now being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing legacy AND the living questions you posed. I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the intertwining. My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience and conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. Thank you Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Jay Lemke Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation for Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking as one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to talk with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity of intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager to hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many of us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what others were thinking. The history of this community has not been like that of specialist scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts we have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from entirely different premises. Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting benefit of us all. JAY. Jay Lemke Professor Emeritus City University of New York www.jaylemke.com On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Esteemed Mike, > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by the > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing the > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring to > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > With great respect > Henry > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > wrote: > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and think > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some terrifically > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > Wendy > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > Mike, all, > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community like > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write in > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from which > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, and a > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how important > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much respect > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a very > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the others. > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca and > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns from > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing with > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that xmca > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. > Thanks, > > > > Alfredo > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting thoughts > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > Best, > > Chuck > > > From ewall@umich.edu Wed Oct 26 13:51:44 2016 From: ewall@umich.edu (Edward Wall) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 15:51:44 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F65F96A-58D9-4491-B56F-2061B2228397@umich.edu> Mike I began this message by putting things in the past tense when, of course, it should have been the future tense. I will enjoy (and have enjoyed) the conversations - to whatever extent catches your interest - with you. Ed > On Oct 24, 2016, at 12:35 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Hear Yee XMCA -O-Phytes. > > > > Having removed myself from the active faculty of LCHC which is now in the > capable hands of Angela Booker and Stephan Tanaka, the time has come for me > to step back from the doings of MCA and XMCA. At MCA the new editorial > team of (in reverse alphabetical order, Jennifer Vadeboncoeur, Bonnie > Nardi, Victor Kaptelinin, and Natalia Gajdamashko) has taken over as > editors, and begun the process of carrying the enterprise into a new > generation. I will remain as a kind of "editor for special projects" for > the journal and will continue to participate in XMCA. > > > > But with respect to XMCA it is past time for me to give up what David > Kellogg has called my "pastoral" role in seeking to coordinate and develop > discourse focused around provocative articles that appear in the journal. > The original idea was to provide authors with rapid feedback and public > recognition instead of having to wait the 2-3 year cycle of replying via an > authorized journal. > > > > The reality, as you know, is somewhat different - a m?lange of topics that > intersect, loop back on themselves, and leak out into the semiosphere. > > > > Luckily, Alfredo Jornet has offered to try his hand at the pastoral role, > and will be recognized on the journal masthead as *MCA Forum Mediator*. > Alfredo brings to the task his early career in Spain, his later career in > Norway, and his present career in Victoria. And all of this international > experience before has started "his career." Brave soul. Alfredo and the > editors are considering a variety of options for the future of the journal, > including importantly, its status as a new medium promoting rapid exchange > of the news between otherwise isolated scholars with complementary > interests. > > > > My participation in xlchc and then xmca has been central to my adult > education, and I appreciate what I have learned here more than words can > suffice to explain. There are not so many academic ecologies in the world, > so enduring those that do spring up seems a worthwhile way to promote its > reproduction.... keeping in mind Phillip White's reminder that the future > of development is not predictable at the level of everyday experience. > > > > As I see it, there are two major failures in this effort over the years. > The first is the enormous imbalance in the gender representation of the > participants. With a few periods where the exceptions ended up proving the > rule, female voices have been conspicuously absent. Academic "guy talk" has > dominated. Understanding and, if possible, re-mediating that sad set of > circumstances seems like a major task for the future. > > > > Second, MCA discourse does not accumulate. The discussions are more like > chaining than the development of new concepts. As in the Sakharov - > Vygotsky blocks experiment, we talk about green triangles then blue > triangles then blue squares, each a legitimate line of inquiry, but > constantly changing criteria/topics as we go. Every once in a while we > ascend to the level of pseudo-concepts (these are the cases that evoke the > most controversy it seems to me). My fond hope is that Alfredo and our > sometimes engaged tech gurus will provide a more supportive environment for > the creation of "truce concepts" -- agreement on a broad set of > principles/empirical embodiments and a research program that identifies the > limits of the theory and the most fruitful lines of inquiry. > > > > Thus spake > > mike From lemke.jay@gmail.com Wed Oct 26 13:51:23 2016 From: lemke.jay@gmail.com (Jay Lemke) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 13:51:23 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: At the risk of re-opening old wounds, I'll recall for the group and especially the more recent participants that long ago there was a rather explicit (and in some ways brutally uncomfortable) airing of the issues around gender imbalance. At the time quite a few women members left the listgroup (and for a time created one of their own). My memory of the outcome of the soul-searching at the time is that many male frequent contributors found themselves confounded (and for some in serious denial) of the perception by women (and many lurkers) that the dominant "core" was intimidating in tone or style of response, oblivious to their privilege as either more senior academics or just as men, and particularly of their totally unconscious sense of their right to hog the stage, as it were. Some of the women saw this as a failure to recognize gender privilege and deal with it. Many of the lurkers (male and female) felt that the heavy presence of a very few (almost all male) voices on the list was in itself off-putting to others, regardless of gender. A few voices were also raised saying that the native English-speakers were oblivious to our privilege and insufficiently sensitive to the positioning of others (ditto to some extent for those from outside N. America). Mike himself was largely exempted from these critiques explicitly, but implicitly I think he felt some responsibility for not having paid more attention to these problems before they found their critical moment. Most of the core contributors, as I recall, were rather defensive in their responses. I tried to be a mediating voice, and Mike asked, with his usual practical good sense, what we could actually do to fix things. Many of the women just left. For a time there were posts in Spanish, Portuguese, and occasionally other languages. Posters made explicit reference to differences in viewpoint due to national cultures or experiences. But with very few women posting, and as I recall those were then mainly the younger women and female grad students, no solution was found regarding the gender imbalance. (Note that by imbalance I think people then meant not mainly imbalance in membership, but in postings, and particularly in the extent to which postings by women were taken up by others and became longer threads. This "uptake effect" was something a lot of people paid attention to -- and not just regarding gender, and one of the active women members even did a quantitative study of it at the time.) Others may remember things differently, and their recollections would be most welcome. Maybe in a separate thread? JAY. Jay Lemke Professor Emeritus City University of New York www.jaylemke.com On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:08 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > Larry, you reiterated Mike's pointing out two concerns; > > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our > time. > > > and you discussed them as two separate issues - "gender imbalance", and > "chaining", and then you illuminated chaining as - > > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > criticism. > > first, I'm surprised that you didn't note sic, in the quote, "When men > (sic) are thus seriously conversing ...". but, second, I'd like to point > out that this genre of mansplaining is most often hierarchically > structured, so that male dominance is maintained. if you look back at the > great majority of chaining in xmca, you'll see that it is dominated by two > or three males voices. and rather than, as you explain, and roughly the > only way in which a man can sort things for himself is to expose his ideas > in this way to another?s criticism., i suggest that it is a culturally male > privileged genre, as Foucault would put it, of maintaining power, privilege > and prerogative. > > > if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively concerned > along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in participation, then i > think that there needs to be a recognition that the current chaining > practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance. > > > phillip > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM > To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Mike, > My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or > quest through living the questions. > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our > time. > The question of gender brings up Franklin?s classroom where the girls know > we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen > and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play they > form a *clique* of superheros. > Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender > imbalance. > > The 2nd question of chaining. > You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding > and development of our community. > > Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to > express my testament and gratitude. > I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. > I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my > personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and > forth. > > Here is what caught my ear. > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to converse > as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which etymology > might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort > for oneself. > > Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony?s now > being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing > legacy AND the living questions you posed. > > I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the > intertwining. > My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience and > conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of > well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. > In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. > Thank you > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Jay Lemke > Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation for > Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking as > one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most > beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. > > To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to talk > with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity of > intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager to > hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand > unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many of > us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what > others were thinking. > > The history of this community has not been like that of specialist > scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has > rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts we > have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or > viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from > entirely different premises. > > Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we > stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of > Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to > make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting > benefit of us all. > > JAY. > > > > Jay Lemke > Professor Emeritus > City University of New York > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Esteemed Mike, > > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by the > > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing the > > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often > > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring > to > > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > > With great respect > > Henry > > > > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and > think > > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some terrifically > > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. > > > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, all, > > > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of > > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community > like > > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write > in > > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat > > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from > > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first > > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt > > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from > which > > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my > > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, > and a > > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the > > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to > > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the > > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of > > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how > important > > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much > respect > > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a > very > > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the > others. > > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it > > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of > > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be > > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has > > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient > > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov > > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that > > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I > > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca > and > > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in > > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns > from > > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing > with > > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very > > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that > xmca > > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. > > Thanks, > > > > > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting > thoughts > > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have > > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > > Best, > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Wed Oct 26 14:32:46 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 21:32:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> , Message-ID: <1477517565427.10215@iped.uio.no> Phillip, Jay, all, Although I (as I am sure you too) appreciate Larry's post and quotation for what he intended the to do, I agree with Phillip's comment that the two issues, gender unbalance and chaining, are inherently connected. And, as in Larry's post, this connection may pass unnoticed by even the most well intentioned. One example of how tightly the two (unbalance and chaining, turn-taking I'd like to call it) are related may be found in our very recent discussion on Zaza's paper, where gendered issues were explicitly discussed. When we realise that a discussion is involving prototyping a prosthetic device for HIV-positive mother's breastfeeding in Zimbabwe, and only one woman (apart from author) engages in the discussion, we may have grounds to think that the problem is not about the topic, but about the chaining, the way the turns at a conversation are interlaced with each other, who takes a turn and how the turn opens or closes opportunities for others to partake in the conversation. And again, the topic itself maybe the issue, because, as Zaza's article very well shows (remember, e.g., the male's defensive comments on sexual harassment), talk about breastfeeding may be of very different topics depending on whether it is 6 males, 6 women, or a blend thereof who are discussing it. Thanks Jay for sharing the history with us, a history the newbies like me have not lived but may learn from. That history, together with the issues that the prior posts are outlining, suggests that the issue may not be so much about men and women per s?, as it may be about the exercise of an exclusivist academic genre that has historically been dominated by males, and which therefore privileges the voice of experienced males even when their last intention was to prevent women from participating. If so, we face a serious challenge, because it means that academic genre itself is the problem, but also the means we have for advancing our endeavour, the one xmca and mca are born for. Obviously, the challenge is not to be solved just here, in xmca, but everywhere else, and I believe there are many lines/fronts where it is being solved, though possibly much slower than it should. These are not news, but I think is good to articulate them again. In any case, and in line with some conversations about crisis going on in parallel to this one (the thread on micro genesis), for us to move forward our developmental path, there may have to be crisis, a phase in which, as David K. posses it, "the means of development turns back upon itself and itself undergoes development." Perhaps we have to face the contradiction of having to grow with and from a genre that has grown within a male dominated world to create a world of joint participation, not domination. For my part, I see two immediate things to do: always leave space between turns to make sure everyone (in principle) has the chance to participate; and always be self-aware of privilege, and open to be made aware by others. I am sure many more things may be added to this list, or may be said better. I hope people will help adding and/or improving it. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Jay Lemke Sent: 26 October 2016 22:51 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change At the risk of re-opening old wounds, I'll recall for the group and especially the more recent participants that long ago there was a rather explicit (and in some ways brutally uncomfortable) airing of the issues around gender imbalance. At the time quite a few women members left the listgroup (and for a time created one of their own). My memory of the outcome of the soul-searching at the time is that many male frequent contributors found themselves confounded (and for some in serious denial) of the perception by women (and many lurkers) that the dominant "core" was intimidating in tone or style of response, oblivious to their privilege as either more senior academics or just as men, and particularly of their totally unconscious sense of their right to hog the stage, as it were. Some of the women saw this as a failure to recognize gender privilege and deal with it. Many of the lurkers (male and female) felt that the heavy presence of a very few (almost all male) voices on the list was in itself off-putting to others, regardless of gender. A few voices were also raised saying that the native English-speakers were oblivious to our privilege and insufficiently sensitive to the positioning of others (ditto to some extent for those from outside N. America). Mike himself was largely exempted from these critiques explicitly, but implicitly I think he felt some responsibility for not having paid more attention to these problems before they found their critical moment. Most of the core contributors, as I recall, were rather defensive in their responses. I tried to be a mediating voice, and Mike asked, with his usual practical good sense, what we could actually do to fix things. Many of the women just left. For a time there were posts in Spanish, Portuguese, and occasionally other languages. Posters made explicit reference to differences in viewpoint due to national cultures or experiences. But with very few women posting, and as I recall those were then mainly the younger women and female grad students, no solution was found regarding the gender imbalance. (Note that by imbalance I think people then meant not mainly imbalance in membership, but in postings, and particularly in the extent to which postings by women were taken up by others and became longer threads. This "uptake effect" was something a lot of people paid attention to -- and not just regarding gender, and one of the active women members even did a quantitative study of it at the time.) Others may remember things differently, and their recollections would be most welcome. Maybe in a separate thread? JAY. Jay Lemke Professor Emeritus City University of New York www.jaylemke.com On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:08 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > Larry, you reiterated Mike's pointing out two concerns; > > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our > time. > > > and you discussed them as two separate issues - "gender imbalance", and > "chaining", and then you illuminated chaining as - > > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > criticism. > > first, I'm surprised that you didn't note sic, in the quote, "When men > (sic) are thus seriously conversing ...". but, second, I'd like to point > out that this genre of mansplaining is most often hierarchically > structured, so that male dominance is maintained. if you look back at the > great majority of chaining in xmca, you'll see that it is dominated by two > or three males voices. and rather than, as you explain, and roughly the > only way in which a man can sort things for himself is to expose his ideas > in this way to another?s criticism., i suggest that it is a culturally male > privileged genre, as Foucault would put it, of maintaining power, privilege > and prerogative. > > > if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively concerned > along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in participation, then i > think that there needs to be a recognition that the current chaining > practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance. > > > phillip > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM > To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Mike, > My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or > quest through living the questions. > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our > time. > The question of gender brings up Franklin?s classroom where the girls know > we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen > and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play they > form a *clique* of superheros. > Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender > imbalance. > > The 2nd question of chaining. > You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding > and development of our community. > > Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to > express my testament and gratitude. > I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. > I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my > personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and > forth. > > Here is what caught my ear. > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to converse > as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which etymology > might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort > for oneself. > > Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony?s now > being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing > legacy AND the living questions you posed. > > I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the > intertwining. > My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience and > conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of > well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. > In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. > Thank you > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Jay Lemke > Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation for > Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking as > one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most > beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. > > To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to talk > with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity of > intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager to > hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand > unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many of > us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what > others were thinking. > > The history of this community has not been like that of specialist > scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has > rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts we > have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or > viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from > entirely different premises. > > Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we > stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of > Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to > make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting > benefit of us all. > > JAY. > > > > Jay Lemke > Professor Emeritus > City University of New York > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Esteemed Mike, > > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by the > > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing the > > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often > > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring > to > > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > > With great respect > > Henry > > > > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and > think > > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some terrifically > > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. > > > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, all, > > > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of > > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community > like > > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write > in > > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat > > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from > > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first > > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt > > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from > which > > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my > > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, > and a > > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the > > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to > > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the > > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of > > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how > important > > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much > respect > > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a > very > > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the > others. > > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it > > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of > > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be > > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has > > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient > > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov > > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that > > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I > > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca > and > > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in > > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns > from > > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing > with > > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very > > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that > xmca > > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. > > Thanks, > > > > > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting > thoughts > > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have > > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > > Best, > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Wed Oct 26 14:42:22 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 21:42:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] subscription linke reminder Message-ID: <1477518142011.46743@iped.uio.no> Hi all, this is just a quick reminder, motivated by some recent requests to subscribe, that we have an xmca web where there is a link both to subscribe and to unsubscribe. Although all of you might already know it, here is the link to xmca web pages: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ Clicking on the "subscribe to xmca" button in red to the right allows both for subscribing AND for unsubscribing (the latter is done manually by xmca's dedicated Bruce, who receives an e-mail when you follow the link in the unsubscribe option). Please, share this link with anyone that might want to join us. As you will see if you follow the link above, the pages are outdated, but we are already working to update them. The articles for discussion and other features related to MCA will be announced there, as they had been until recently. We are also considering new uses of these pages for our collective inquiry. So, more on this soon! ? Alfredo From dkirsh@lsu.edu Wed Oct 26 14:43:51 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 21:43:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> , Message-ID: The dynamics of participation are really complex, and not just along gender lines. In my early years on the list, I sometimes offered posts that provoked considerable criticism, often based on criteria that I didn't understand well enough to respond to, or even to question. These criticisms were not cruelly administered, but were painful, nonetheless. I'm sure the extent and nature of my participation on the list was influenced as a result; sometimes I withhold comments that might put me on shaky ground, and my feelings of centrality also are affected. And on occasion I've seen others' posts critiqued, including posts that seemed to me to lack sound foundation or potential, sometimes offered by individuals whose personality rendered them relatively insensitive to their reception by others. XMCA is an ecology, not a neutral environment. It thrives because a high quality of posts is maintained, but that high-quality participation is mediated by very human interactive elements. How easy it would be to institute some sort of "objective" criteria for participation to attain "fairness"--but undoubtedly that would come at the cost of quality, and eventually at the cost of survival of the listserv. I really miss many of the voices of women that left to form/find a more fair venue for participation--some really exciting and inspiring voices. I hope they've succeeded. But these human qualities of participation are too complex to ever really figure out, and there is always room for "objective" criticism that can scuttle even the best intended communities. David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Jay Lemke Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 3:51:23 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change At the risk of re-opening old wounds, I'll recall for the group and especially the more recent participants that long ago there was a rather explicit (and in some ways brutally uncomfortable) airing of the issues around gender imbalance. At the time quite a few women members left the listgroup (and for a time created one of their own). My memory of the outcome of the soul-searching at the time is that many male frequent contributors found themselves confounded (and for some in serious denial) of the perception by women (and many lurkers) that the dominant "core" was intimidating in tone or style of response, oblivious to their privilege as either more senior academics or just as men, and particularly of their totally unconscious sense of their right to hog the stage, as it were. Some of the women saw this as a failure to recognize gender privilege and deal with it. Many of the lurkers (male and female) felt that the heavy presence of a very few (almost all male) voices on the list was in itself off-putting to others, regardless of gender. A few voices were also raised saying that the native English-speakers were oblivious to our privilege and insufficiently sensitive to the positioning of others (ditto to some extent for those from outside N. America). Mike himself was largely exempted from these critiques explicitly, but implicitly I think he felt some responsibility for not having paid more attention to these problems before they found their critical moment. Most of the core contributors, as I recall, were rather defensive in their responses. I tried to be a mediating voice, and Mike asked, with his usual practical good sense, what we could actually do to fix things. Many of the women just left. For a time there were posts in Spanish, Portuguese, and occasionally other languages. Posters made explicit reference to differences in viewpoint due to national cultures or experiences. But with very few women posting, and as I recall those were then mainly the younger women and female grad students, no solution was found regarding the gender imbalance. (Note that by imbalance I think people then meant not mainly imbalance in membership, but in postings, and particularly in the extent to which postings by women were taken up by others and became longer threads. This "uptake effect" was something a lot of people paid attention to -- and not just regarding gender, and one of the active women members even did a quantitative study of it at the time.) Others may remember things differently, and their recollections would be most welcome. Maybe in a separate thread? JAY. Jay Lemke Professor Emeritus City University of New York www.jaylemke.com On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:08 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > Larry, you reiterated Mike's pointing out two concerns; > > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our > time. > > > and you discussed them as two separate issues - "gender imbalance", and > "chaining", and then you illuminated chaining as - > > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > criticism. > > first, I'm surprised that you didn't note sic, in the quote, "When men > (sic) are thus seriously conversing ...". but, second, I'd like to point > out that this genre of mansplaining is most often hierarchically > structured, so that male dominance is maintained. if you look back at the > great majority of chaining in xmca, you'll see that it is dominated by two > or three males voices. and rather than, as you explain, and roughly the > only way in which a man can sort things for himself is to expose his ideas > in this way to another?s criticism., i suggest that it is a culturally male > privileged genre, as Foucault would put it, of maintaining power, privilege > and prerogative. > > > if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively concerned > along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in participation, then i > think that there needs to be a recognition that the current chaining > practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance. > > > phillip > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM > To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Mike, > My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or > quest through living the questions. > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our > time. > The question of gender brings up Franklin?s classroom where the girls know > we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen > and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play they > form a *clique* of superheros. > Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender > imbalance. > > The 2nd question of chaining. > You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding > and development of our community. > > Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to > express my testament and gratitude. > I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. > I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my > personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and > forth. > > Here is what caught my ear. > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to converse > as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which etymology > might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort > for oneself. > > Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony?s now > being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing > legacy AND the living questions you posed. > > I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the > intertwining. > My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience and > conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of > well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. > In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. > Thank you > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Jay Lemke > Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation for > Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking as > one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most > beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. > > To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to talk > with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity of > intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager to > hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand > unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many of > us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what > others were thinking. > > The history of this community has not been like that of specialist > scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has > rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts we > have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or > viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from > entirely different premises. > > Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we > stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of > Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to > make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting > benefit of us all. > > JAY. > > > > Jay Lemke > Professor Emeritus > City University of New York > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Esteemed Mike, > > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by the > > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing the > > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often > > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring > to > > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > > With great respect > > Henry > > > > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and > think > > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some terrifically > > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. > > > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, all, > > > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of > > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community > like > > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write > in > > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat > > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from > > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first > > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt > > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from > which > > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my > > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, > and a > > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the > > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to > > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the > > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of > > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how > important > > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much > respect > > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a > very > > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the > others. > > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it > > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of > > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be > > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has > > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient > > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov > > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that > > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I > > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca > and > > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in > > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns > from > > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing > with > > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very > > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that > xmca > > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. > > Thanks, > > > > > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting > thoughts > > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have > > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > > Best, > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 26 16:30:29 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 16:30:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: <1477517565427.10215@iped.uio.no> References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> <1477517565427.10215@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Larry- I, too, reacted to the MEN in your note. I attributed it to what I took to be your cutting and pasting from a google search using archaic sources/langauage translated his note for myself in the following terms using italics (you were seeking to characterize my mode of interacting): To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When *participants in a conversation* are thus seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which *participants* can sort things for *themselves *is to expose *their *ideas in this way to another?s criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to converse as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which etymology might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort for oneself. Trying to figure things out is certainly what I strive to try to do in this conversation, so that made sense. The intertwining of content and style, as I have written previously, was more than I could ever deal with. mike On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Phillip, Jay, all, > > Although I (as I am sure you too) appreciate Larry's post and quotation > for what he intended the to do, I agree with Phillip's comment that the two > issues, gender unbalance and chaining, are inherently connected. And, as in > Larry's post, this connection may pass unnoticed by even the most well > intentioned. One example of how tightly the two (unbalance and chaining, > turn-taking I'd like to call it) are related may be found in our very > recent discussion on Zaza's paper, where gendered issues were explicitly > discussed. When we realise that a discussion is involving prototyping a > prosthetic device for HIV-positive mother's breastfeeding in Zimbabwe, and > only one woman (apart from author) engages in the discussion, we may have > grounds to think that the problem is not about the topic, but about the > chaining, the way the turns at a conversation are interlaced with each > other, who takes a turn and how the turn opens or closes opportunities for > others to partake in the conversation. And again, the topic itself maybe > the issue, because, as Zaza's article very well shows (remember, e.g., the > male's defensive comments on sexual harassment), talk about breastfeeding > may be of very different topics depending on whether it is 6 males, 6 > women, or a blend thereof who are discussing it. > > Thanks Jay for sharing the history with us, a history the newbies like me > have not lived but may learn from. That history, together with the issues > that the prior posts are outlining, suggests that the issue may not be so > much about men and women per s?, as it may be about the exercise of an > exclusivist academic genre that has historically been dominated by males, > and which therefore privileges the voice of experienced males even when > their last intention was to prevent women from participating. If so, we > face a serious challenge, because it means that academic genre itself is > the problem, but also the means we have for advancing our endeavour, the > one xmca and mca are born for. Obviously, the challenge is not to be solved > just here, in xmca, but everywhere else, and I believe there are many > lines/fronts where it is being solved, though possibly much slower than it > should. These are not news, but I think is good to articulate them again. > > In any case, and in line with some conversations about crisis going on in > parallel to this one (the thread on micro genesis), for us to move forward > our developmental path, there may have to be crisis, a phase in which, as > David K. posses it, "the means of development turns back upon itself and > itself undergoes development." Perhaps we have to face the contradiction of > having to grow with and from a genre that has grown within a male dominated > world to create a world of joint participation, not domination. For my > part, I see two immediate things to do: always leave space between turns to > make sure everyone (in principle) has the chance to participate; and always > be self-aware of privilege, and open to be made aware by others. I am sure > many more things may be added to this list, or may be said better. I hope > people will help adding and/or improving it. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Jay Lemke > Sent: 26 October 2016 22:51 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > At the risk of re-opening old wounds, I'll recall for the group and > especially the more recent participants that long ago there was a rather > explicit (and in some ways brutally uncomfortable) airing of the issues > around gender imbalance. At the time quite a few women members left the > listgroup (and for a time created one of their own). > > My memory of the outcome of the soul-searching at the time is that many > male frequent contributors found themselves confounded (and for some in > serious denial) of the perception by women (and many lurkers) that the > dominant "core" was intimidating in tone or style of response, oblivious to > their privilege as either more senior academics or just as men, and > particularly of their totally unconscious sense of their right to hog the > stage, as it were. Some of the women saw this as a failure to recognize > gender privilege and deal with it. Many of the lurkers (male and female) > felt that the heavy presence of a very few (almost all male) voices on the > list was in itself off-putting to others, regardless of gender. A few > voices were also raised saying that the native English-speakers were > oblivious to our privilege and insufficiently sensitive to the positioning > of others (ditto to some extent for those from outside N. America). > > Mike himself was largely exempted from these critiques explicitly, but > implicitly I think he felt some responsibility for not having paid more > attention to these problems before they found their critical moment. > > Most of the core contributors, as I recall, were rather defensive in their > responses. I tried to be a mediating voice, and Mike asked, with his usual > practical good sense, what we could actually do to fix things. Many of the > women just left. For a time there were posts in Spanish, Portuguese, and > occasionally other languages. Posters made explicit reference to > differences in viewpoint due to national cultures or experiences. > > But with very few women posting, and as I recall those were then mainly the > younger women and female grad students, no solution was found regarding the > gender imbalance. (Note that by imbalance I think people then meant not > mainly imbalance in membership, but in postings, and particularly in the > extent to which postings by women were taken up by others and became longer > threads. This "uptake effect" was something a lot of people paid attention > to -- and not just regarding gender, and one of the active women members > even did a quantitative study of it at the time.) > > Others may remember things differently, and their recollections would be > most welcome. Maybe in a separate thread? > > JAY. > > > > > > > Jay Lemke > Professor Emeritus > City University of New York > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:08 PM, White, Phillip < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> > wrote: > > > Larry, you reiterated Mike's pointing out two concerns; > > > > > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for > our > > time. > > > > > > and you discussed them as two separate issues - "gender imbalance", and > > "chaining", and then you illuminated chaining as - > > > > > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected > dialectic > > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with > each > > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly > along > > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation > that > > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are > sorting > > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can > sort > > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > > criticism. > > > > first, I'm surprised that you didn't note sic, in the quote, "When men > > (sic) are thus seriously conversing ...". but, second, I'd like to point > > out that this genre of mansplaining is most often hierarchically > > structured, so that male dominance is maintained. if you look back at > the > > great majority of chaining in xmca, you'll see that it is dominated by > two > > or three males voices. and rather than, as you explain, and roughly the > > only way in which a man can sort things for himself is to expose his > ideas > > in this way to another?s criticism., i suggest that it is a culturally > male > > privileged genre, as Foucault would put it, of maintaining power, > privilege > > and prerogative. > > > > > > if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively concerned > > along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in participation, then i > > think that there needs to be a recognition that the current chaining > > practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance. > > > > > > phillip > > > > ________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM > > To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > Mike, > > My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or > > quest through living the questions. > > > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for > our > > time. > > The question of gender brings up Franklin?s classroom where the girls > know > > we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen > > and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play > they > > form a *clique* of superheros. > > Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender > > imbalance. > > > > The 2nd question of chaining. > > You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding > > and development of our community. > > > > Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to > > express my testament and gratitude. > > I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. > > I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my > > personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and > > forth. > > > > Here is what caught my ear. > > > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected > dialectic > > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with > each > > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly > along > > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation > that > > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are > sorting > > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can > sort > > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > > criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to > converse > > as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which > etymology > > might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort > > for oneself. > > > > Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony?s now > > being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing > > legacy AND the living questions you posed. > > > > I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the > > intertwining. > > My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience > and > > conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of > > well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. > > In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. > > Thank you > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > From: Jay Lemke > > Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation > for > > Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking > as > > one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most > > beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. > > > > To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to > talk > > with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity > of > > intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager > to > > hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand > > unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many > of > > us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what > > others were thinking. > > > > The history of this community has not been like that of specialist > > scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has > > rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts > we > > have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or > > viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from > > entirely different premises. > > > > Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we > > stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of > > Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to > > make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting > > benefit of us all. > > > > JAY. > > > > > > > > Jay Lemke > > Professor Emeritus > > City University of New York > > www.jaylemke.com > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > > > Esteemed Mike, > > > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by > the > > > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing > the > > > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often > > > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring > > to > > > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > > > With great respect > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and > > think > > > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some > terrifically > > > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it > going. > > > > > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > > > Mike, all, > > > > > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of > > > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > > > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community > > like > > > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to > write > > in > > > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat > > > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking > from > > > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I > first > > > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt > > > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from > > which > > > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my > > > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, > > and a > > > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the > > > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to > > > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In > the > > > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words > of > > > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how > > important > > > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much > > respect > > > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a > > very > > > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the > > others. > > > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, > it > > > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but > of > > > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be > > > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has > > > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient > > > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov > > > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear > that > > > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I > > > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca > > and > > > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake > in > > > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns > > from > > > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing > > with > > > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very > > > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that > > xmca > > > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue > growing. > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > > > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting > > thoughts > > > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will > have > > > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > > > Best, > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Oct 26 16:36:44 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 16:36:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Message-ID: Some explicit/at the time, analysis of gender issues in xmca discourse can be found here: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ekeblad/cocomu.html The data base for evaluating hypotheses about the discourse is available to all. mike PS- I discovered in looking this up that a link to a prior analysis is broken. I'll see about getting that fixed. From glassman.13@osu.edu Wed Oct 26 18:03:21 2016 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 01:03:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> , Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C520C1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> First let me say that it has been an honor and a privilege to be a participant on this list. Mike and LCHC blazed some extraordinary trails. I hope somebody writes a really good history of the list - it needs its own Howard Rheingold. One of the amazing things about it was the list had few technologists (were there any) but for a time was I think one of the most advanced uses of our new technologies. Truly extraordinary. I also remember the issues of gender imbalance among other power and communicative relationships. I think one of the things that it was difficult to realize, is difficult to realize, is that the Internet (in all its guises) can't in itself change human behavior. Just because the technology is advanced does not mean the behavior on the technology is advanced. I think it is mostly a mirror of the way we are, the worlds we live in are, at the time we are using it. We lived in academic worlds with unbalanced gendered relationships and conversation reflected our online lives, if sometimes in a funhouse manner. One of the best things of the current presidential election is that it is bringing issues and gender and power to the forefront, much the way Obama's presidency brought racism to the forefront. The gender dynamics of our place based worlds played out in our space based worlds. At this point I'm not sure it could have been any different no matter how hard some tried to move the needle. We will see as the experiment continues I suppose. Viva la' evolution Alfredo!! Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David H Kirshner Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 5:44 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change The dynamics of participation are really complex, and not just along gender lines. In my early years on the list, I sometimes offered posts that provoked considerable criticism, often based on criteria that I didn't understand well enough to respond to, or even to question. These criticisms were not cruelly administered, but were painful, nonetheless. I'm sure the extent and nature of my participation on the list was influenced as a result; sometimes I withhold comments that might put me on shaky ground, and my feelings of centrality also are affected. And on occasion I've seen others' posts critiqued, including posts that seemed to me to lack sound foundation or potential, sometimes offered by individuals whose personality rendered them relatively insensitive to their reception by others. XMCA is an ecology, not a neutral environment. It thrives because a high quality of posts is maintained, but that high-quality participation is mediated by very human interactive elements. How easy it would be to institute some sort of "objective" criteria for participation to attain "fairness"--but undoubtedly that would come at the cost of quality, and eventually at the cost of survival of the listserv. I really miss many of the voices of women that left to form/find a more fair venue for participation--some really exciting and inspiring voices. I hope they've succeeded. But these human qualities of participation are too complex to ever really figure out, and there is always room for "objective" criticism that can scuttle even the best intended communities. David ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Jay Lemke Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 3:51:23 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change At the risk of re-opening old wounds, I'll recall for the group and especially the more recent participants that long ago there was a rather explicit (and in some ways brutally uncomfortable) airing of the issues around gender imbalance. At the time quite a few women members left the listgroup (and for a time created one of their own). My memory of the outcome of the soul-searching at the time is that many male frequent contributors found themselves confounded (and for some in serious denial) of the perception by women (and many lurkers) that the dominant "core" was intimidating in tone or style of response, oblivious to their privilege as either more senior academics or just as men, and particularly of their totally unconscious sense of their right to hog the stage, as it were. Some of the women saw this as a failure to recognize gender privilege and deal with it. Many of the lurkers (male and female) felt that the heavy presence of a very few (almost all male) voices on the list was in itself off-putting to others, regardless of gender. A few voices were also raised saying that the native English-speakers were oblivious to our privilege and insufficiently sensitive to the positioning of others (ditto to some extent for those from outside N. America). Mike himself was largely exempted from these critiques explicitly, but implicitly I think he felt some responsibility for not having paid more attention to these problems before they found their critical moment. Most of the core contributors, as I recall, were rather defensive in their responses. I tried to be a mediating voice, and Mike asked, with his usual practical good sense, what we could actually do to fix things. Many of the women just left. For a time there were posts in Spanish, Portuguese, and occasionally other languages. Posters made explicit reference to differences in viewpoint due to national cultures or experiences. But with very few women posting, and as I recall those were then mainly the younger women and female grad students, no solution was found regarding the gender imbalance. (Note that by imbalance I think people then meant not mainly imbalance in membership, but in postings, and particularly in the extent to which postings by women were taken up by others and became longer threads. This "uptake effect" was something a lot of people paid attention to -- and not just regarding gender, and one of the active women members even did a quantitative study of it at the time.) Others may remember things differently, and their recollections would be most welcome. Maybe in a separate thread? JAY. Jay Lemke Professor Emeritus City University of New York www.jaylemke.com On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:08 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > Larry, you reiterated Mike's pointing out two concerns; > > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear > your question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the > questions for our time. > > > and you discussed them as two separate issues - "gender imbalance", > and "chaining", and then you illuminated chaining as - > > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected > dialectic with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the > dialektikos or dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and > that dialectic is the practice of sorting things into their kinds by > taking counsel with each other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to > Socrates would be roughly along these lines. To dialegesthai is to > engage in the sort of conversation that is courteous, serious, and > concerned with the truth. When men are thus seriously conversing, each > trying to learn from the other, they are sorting things out for > themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort things > for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another's criticism. > > first, I'm surprised that you didn't note sic, in the quote, "When men > (sic) are thus seriously conversing ...". but, second, I'd like to > point out that this genre of mansplaining is most often hierarchically > structured, so that male dominance is maintained. if you look back at > the great majority of chaining in xmca, you'll see that it is > dominated by two or three males voices. and rather than, as you > explain, and roughly the only way in which a man can sort things for > himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another's criticism., i > suggest that it is a culturally male privileged genre, as Foucault > would put it, of maintaining power, privilege and prerogative. > > > if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively > concerned along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in > participation, then i think that there needs to be a recognition that > the current chaining practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance. > > > phillip > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM > To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Mike, > My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey > or quest through living the questions. > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear > your question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the > questions for our time. > The question of gender brings up Franklin's classroom where the girls > know we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are > carefully chosen and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 > boys come to play they form a *clique* of superheros. > Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender > imbalance. > > The 2nd question of chaining. > You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the > founding and development of our community. > > Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to > express my testament and gratitude. > I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. > I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing > my personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the > back and forth. > > Here is what caught my ear. > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected > dialectic with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the > dialektikos or dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and > that dialectic is the practice of sorting things into their kinds by > taking counsel with each other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to > Socrates would be roughly along these lines. To dialegesthai is to > engage in the sort of conversation that is courteous, serious, and > concerned with the truth. When men are thus seriously conversing, each > trying to learn from the other, they are sorting things out for > themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort things > for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another's criticism. > Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to converse as > one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which > etymology might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort for oneself. > > Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony's now > being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND > ongoing legacy AND the living questions you posed. > > I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the > intertwining. > My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience > and conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of > well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. > In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. > Thank you > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Jay Lemke > Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of > appreciation for Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) > have been. Speaking as one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo > every word of the most beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. > > To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to > talk with each other and not past each other, despite a very great > diversity of intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say > that we were eager to hear different views, other ideas. We were not > looking to build a grand unified consensus. Each of us had our > theory-building projects (or many of us did) and our research > experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what others were thinking. > > The history of this community has not been like that of specialist > scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has > rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest > gifts we have given each other have been ideas we had never thought > of, or viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but > starting from entirely different premises. > > Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But > we stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest > of Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, > helping to make sure that all these different voices could be heard. > To the lasting benefit of us all. > > JAY. > > > > Jay Lemke > Professor Emeritus > City University of New York > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Esteemed Mike, > > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by > > the other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for > > nourishing the dialog, which I have found to be so > > thought-provoking. It has often challenged my simplistic notions of > > what Vygotsky and many others bring > to > > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > > With great respect > > Henry > > > > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and > think > > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some > > terrifically interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. > > > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, all, > > > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple > > > of > > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a > > community > like > > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to > > write > in > > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the > > chat literature are there, either actively participating or just > > lurking from time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. > > That's what I first felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since > > then, I have always felt welcome to write more, and every time have > > been place in a place from > which > > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, > > my hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more > > flexible, > and a > > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) > > the trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the > > opportunity to become part of a thinking that could have never been > > just my own. In the little time I have spent here, and as anyone can > > hear in the the words of those who have been here for much longer, > > it has become clear how > important > > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much > respect > > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in > > a > very > > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the > others. > > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years > > ago, it feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" > > role, but of course every one here knows that there is nothing like > > a flock to be pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is > > best). Mike has presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and > > that is a convenient term we came up with together. Yet, I should > > quote here F. T. Mikhailov (thanks Michael for introducing me to > > this!), for whom it was clear that "the soul knows no mediators." > > Just in the same sense, I do not think I will mediate much, if > > mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca > and > > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to > > partake in xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares > > for and learns > from > > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue > > growing > with > > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the > > very honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to > > me that > xmca > > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. > > Thanks, > > > > > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say > > > how much I have appreciated all you have done to foster > > > interesting > thoughts > > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will > > > have the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > > Best, > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Oct 26 18:29:59 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 18:29:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> <1477517565427.10215@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <5811589f.434e420a.faff5.0ff8@mx.google.com> Phillip, Mike, Yes, i was using archaic language turning back to Greece. Yes also to Phillip that this turn may not be a good model for the reasons he offered. My intent was to traverse time to recognize the themes are playing out historically and draw attention to the *middle voice* (which may also have an archaic aspect). Yes, back then MAN was used and therefore may be challenged as a mode that is no longer appropriate. The sensitive responses of the next posts do seem to have opened up this very complex topic. When traversing the move backwards caution is required. The *middle voice* was what i was featuring. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: mike cole Sent: October 26, 2016 4:33 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change Larry- I, too, reacted to the MEN in your note. I attributed it to what I took to be your cutting and pasting from a google search using archaic sources/langauage translated his note for myself in the following terms using italics (you were seeking to characterize my mode of interacting): To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When *participants in a conversation* are thus seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which *participants* can sort things for *themselves *is to expose *their *ideas in this way to another?s criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to converse as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which etymology might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort for oneself. Trying to figure things out is certainly what I strive to try to do in this conversation, so that made sense. The intertwining of content and style, as I have written previously, was more than I could ever deal with. mike On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Phillip, Jay, all, > > Although I (as I am sure you too) appreciate Larry's post and quotation > for what he intended the to do, I agree with Phillip's comment that the two > issues, gender unbalance and chaining, are inherently connected. And, as in > Larry's post, this connection may pass unnoticed by even the most well > intentioned. One example of how tightly the two (unbalance and chaining, > turn-taking I'd like to call it) are related may be found in our very > recent discussion on Zaza's paper, where gendered issues were explicitly > discussed. When we realise that a discussion is involving prototyping a > prosthetic device for HIV-positive mother's breastfeeding in Zimbabwe, and > only one woman (apart from author) engages in the discussion, we may have > grounds to think that the problem is not about the topic, but about the > chaining, the way the turns at a conversation are interlaced with each > other, who takes a turn and how the turn opens or closes opportunities for > others to partake in the conversation. And again, the topic itself maybe > the issue, because, as Zaza's article very well shows (remember, e.g., the > male's defensive comments on sexual harassment), talk about breastfeeding > may be of very different topics depending on whether it is 6 males, 6 > women, or a blend thereof who are discussing it. > > Thanks Jay for sharing the history with us, a history the newbies like me > have not lived but may learn from. That history, together with the issues > that the prior posts are outlining, suggests that the issue may not be so > much about men and women per s?, as it may be about the exercise of an > exclusivist academic genre that has historically been dominated by males, > and which therefore privileges the voice of experienced males even when > their last intention was to prevent women from participating. If so, we > face a serious challenge, because it means that academic genre itself is > the problem, but also the means we have for advancing our endeavour, the > one xmca and mca are born for. Obviously, the challenge is not to be solved > just here, in xmca, but everywhere else, and I believe there are many > lines/fronts where it is being solved, though possibly much slower than it > should. These are not news, but I think is good to articulate them again. > > In any case, and in line with some conversations about crisis going on in > parallel to this one (the thread on micro genesis), for us to move forward > our developmental path, there may have to be crisis, a phase in which, as > David K. posses it, "the means of development turns back upon itself and > itself undergoes development." Perhaps we have to face the contradiction of > having to grow with and from a genre that has grown within a male dominated > world to create a world of joint participation, not domination. For my > part, I see two immediate things to do: always leave space between turns to > make sure everyone (in principle) has the chance to participate; and always > be self-aware of privilege, and open to be made aware by others. I am sure > many more things may be added to this list, or may be said better. I hope > people will help adding and/or improving it. > > Alfredo > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Jay Lemke > Sent: 26 October 2016 22:51 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > At the risk of re-opening old wounds, I'll recall for the group and > especially the more recent participants that long ago there was a rather > explicit (and in some ways brutally uncomfortable) airing of the issues > around gender imbalance. At the time quite a few women members left the > listgroup (and for a time created one of their own). > > My memory of the outcome of the soul-searching at the time is that many > male frequent contributors found themselves confounded (and for some in > serious denial) of the perception by women (and many lurkers) that the > dominant "core" was intimidating in tone or style of response, oblivious to > their privilege as either more senior academics or just as men, and > particularly of their totally unconscious sense of their right to hog the > stage, as it were. Some of the women saw this as a failure to recognize > gender privilege and deal with it. Many of the lurkers (male and female) > felt that the heavy presence of a very few (almost all male) voices on the > list was in itself off-putting to others, regardless of gender. A few > voices were also raised saying that the native English-speakers were > oblivious to our privilege and insufficiently sensitive to the positioning > of others (ditto to some extent for those from outside N. America). > > Mike himself was largely exempted from these critiques explicitly, but > implicitly I think he felt some responsibility for not having paid more > attention to these problems before they found their critical moment. > > Most of the core contributors, as I recall, were rather defensive in their > responses. I tried to be a mediating voice, and Mike asked, with his usual > practical good sense, what we could actually do to fix things. Many of the > women just left. For a time there were posts in Spanish, Portuguese, and > occasionally other languages. Posters made explicit reference to > differences in viewpoint due to national cultures or experiences. > > But with very few women posting, and as I recall those were then mainly the > younger women and female grad students, no solution was found regarding the > gender imbalance. (Note that by imbalance I think people then meant not > mainly imbalance in membership, but in postings, and particularly in the > extent to which postings by women were taken up by others and became longer > threads. This "uptake effect" was something a lot of people paid attention > to -- and not just regarding gender, and one of the active women members > even did a quantitative study of it at the time.) > > Others may remember things differently, and their recollections would be > most welcome. Maybe in a separate thread? > > JAY. > > > > > > > Jay Lemke > Professor Emeritus > City University of New York > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:08 PM, White, Phillip < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> > wrote: > > > Larry, you reiterated Mike's pointing out two concerns; > > > > > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for > our > > time. > > > > > > and you discussed them as two separate issues - "gender imbalance", and > > "chaining", and then you illuminated chaining as - > > > > > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected > dialectic > > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with > each > > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly > along > > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation > that > > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are > sorting > > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can > sort > > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > > criticism. > > > > first, I'm surprised that you didn't note sic, in the quote, "When men > > (sic) are thus seriously conversing ...". but, second, I'd like to point > > out that this genre of mansplaining is most often hierarchically > > structured, so that male dominance is maintained. if you look back at > the > > great majority of chaining in xmca, you'll see that it is dominated by > two > > or three males voices. and rather than, as you explain, and roughly the > > only way in which a man can sort things for himself is to expose his > ideas > > in this way to another?s criticism., i suggest that it is a culturally > male > > privileged genre, as Foucault would put it, of maintaining power, > privilege > > and prerogative. > > > > > > if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively concerned > > along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in participation, then i > > think that there needs to be a recognition that the current chaining > > practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance. > > > > > > phillip > > > > ________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM > > To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > Mike, > > My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or > > quest through living the questions. > > > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for > our > > time. > > The question of gender brings up Franklin?s classroom where the girls > know > > we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen > > and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play > they > > form a *clique* of superheros. > > Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender > > imbalance. > > > > The 2nd question of chaining. > > You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding > > and development of our community. > > > > Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to > > express my testament and gratitude. > > I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. > > I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my > > personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and > > forth. > > > > Here is what caught my ear. > > > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected > dialectic > > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with > each > > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly > along > > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation > that > > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are > sorting > > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can > sort > > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > > criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to > converse > > as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which > etymology > > might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort > > for oneself. > > > > Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony?s now > > being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing > > legacy AND the living questions you posed. > > > > I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the > > intertwining. > > My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience > and > > conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of > > well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. > > In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. > > Thank you > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > From: Jay Lemke > > Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation > for > > Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking > as > > one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most > > beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. > > > > To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to > talk > > with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity > of > > intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager > to > > hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand > > unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many > of > > us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what > > others were thinking. > > > > The history of this community has not been like that of specialist > > scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has > > rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts > we > > have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or > > viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from > > entirely different premises. > > > > Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we > > stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of > > Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to > > make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting > > benefit of us all. > > > > JAY. > > > > > > > > Jay Lemke > > Professor Emeritus > > City University of New York > > www.jaylemke.com > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > > > Esteemed Mike, > > > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by > the > > > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing > the > > > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often > > > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring > > to > > > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > > > With great respect > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and > > think > > > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some > terrifically > > > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it > going. > > > > > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > > > Mike, all, > > > > > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of > > > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > > > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community > > like > > > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to > write > > in > > > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat > > > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking > from > > > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I > first > > > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt > > > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from > > which > > > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my > > > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, > > and a > > > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the > > > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to > > > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In > the > > > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words > of > > > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how > > important > > > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much > > respect > > > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a > > very > > > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the > > others. > > > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, > it > > > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but > of > > > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be > > > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has > > > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient > > > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov > > > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear > that > > > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I > > > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca > > and > > > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake > in > > > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns > > from > > > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing > > with > > > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very > > > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that > > xmca > > > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue > growing. > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > > > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting > > thoughts > > > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will > have > > > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > > > Best, > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Oct 26 21:33:53 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 15:33:53 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Vygotsky's 120th Birthday Message-ID: I just got the below from a mate in Kyrgyzstan. It says that there are 120th birthday parties being held in half a dozen countries for Vygotsky within the last and the next two weeks or so (Armenia was a week ago, Uzbekistan two weeks ago, Azerbaijan today and yesterday, but Russia, Byelorus and Kazakhstan in the new fortnight or so). The topic is something like "Humanity in an Uncertain World: A Methodology for Cultural-Historical Knowledge". Except that the Russian for "uncertain" has the sense of "undefined" or "indefinite" (I think). David Kellogg Macquarie University ??????? ????????, ? 2016 ???? ??????? ?????????? ?????? ????? ????????? 120-????? ?? ??? ???????? ?.?. ??????????, ??????????? ?????????, ??????????? ???????, ???????? ???????? ????? ? ???????? ???? ? ???????????? ???????? ? ???????? ? ????????. ?????????-???????????? ????????? ?.?.?????????? ?????????? ??? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?? ????? ????. ? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????? ?????, ??????????? ?.?.??????????, ?????????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ?????????-?????????????? ????????, 15-16 ?????? 2016 ???? ??????? ??????-???????????? ???????????, ???????????? ? 120-????? ?.?. ?????????? ???????? ? ???? ????????????????: ??????????? ?????????-????????????? ????????? (????? ??????????: ?. ??????, ??. ????? ???????????, ?.1, ???.1, ??????? ?????? ??????????? ??????????????? ???????????????? ????????????), ? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ? ??????? ???: 19-20 ??????? ? ??????? (???????), 14-15 ??????? ? ???????? (??????????), 26-27 ??????? ? ???? (???????????), 21-22 ?????? ? ?????? (??????????), 10-11 ?????? ? ?????? (?????????), ??????????? ????????????? ? ???????????? ?????????? ?????????-???????????? ????????? ?.?. ??????????. ????? ????? ?????????? ??? ?????????? ? ??????????? ???????? ??????????? - ?? 6 ?????? ????????????. ??? ?????????? ? ??????????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????????? ??????????????? ???????????? (????.??) ??? ?? ??????: http://bit.ly/2eSW4yc ? ?????????? ???????????, ??????????? "??????????" From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Wed Oct 26 21:46:39 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 04:46:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky's 120th Birthday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1477543597603.75919@iped.uio.no> Thanks for sharing, David! The link has also a reduced English version describing a commemorative congress to be held at Moscow State University in Nov. It is still open for registration (until 31 Oct) and there is no fee. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David Kellogg Sent: 27 October 2016 06:33 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Vygotsky's 120th Birthday I just got the below from a mate in Kyrgyzstan. It says that there are 120th birthday parties being held in half a dozen countries for Vygotsky within the last and the next two weeks or so (Armenia was a week ago, Uzbekistan two weeks ago, Azerbaijan today and yesterday, but Russia, Byelorus and Kazakhstan in the new fortnight or so). The topic is something like "Humanity in an Uncertain World: A Methodology for Cultural-Historical Knowledge". Except that the Russian for "uncertain" has the sense of "undefined" or "indefinite" (I think). David Kellogg Macquarie University ??????? ????????, ? 2016 ???? ??????? ?????????? ?????? ????? ????????? 120-????? ?? ??? ???????? ?.?. ??????????, ??????????? ?????????, ??????????? ???????, ???????? ???????? ????? ? ???????? ???? ? ???????????? ???????? ? ???????? ? ????????. ?????????-???????????? ????????? ?.?.?????????? ?????????? ??? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?? ????? ????. ? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????? ?????, ??????????? ?.?.??????????, ?????????? ??? ?????? ? ??????? ?????????-?????????????? ????????, 15-16 ?????? 2016 ???? ??????? ??????-???????????? ???????????, ???????????? ? 120-????? ?.?. ?????????? ???????? ? ???? ????????????????: ??????????? ?????????-????????????? ????????? (????? ??????????: ?. ??????, ??. ????? ???????????, ?.1, ???.1, ??????? ?????? ??????????? ??????????????? ???????????????? ????????????), ? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ? ??????? ???: 19-20 ??????? ? ??????? (???????), 14-15 ??????? ? ???????? (??????????), 26-27 ??????? ? ???? (???????????), 21-22 ?????? ? ?????? (??????????), 10-11 ?????? ? ?????? (?????????), ??????????? ????????????? ? ???????????? ?????????? ?????????-???????????? ????????? ?.?. ??????????. ????? ????? ?????????? ??? ?????????? ? ??????????? ???????? ??????????? - ?? 6 ?????? ????????????. ??? ?????????? ? ??????????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????????? ??????????????? ???????????? (????.??) ??? ?? ??????: http://bit.ly/2eSW4yc ? ?????????? ???????????, ??????????? "??????????" From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Oct 27 10:13:47 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 17:13:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: <4401E782-B3E2-47A3-9C61-3A8A0910E499@ingressus.se> References: <5bf3e42f-337a-6351-ff67-5a1446cf2553@mira.net> <015a01d22e82$2db02370$89106a50$@edu> <051F2C97-8516-4AFF-B6E0-DB286A893B9E@gmail.com> , <4401E782-B3E2-47A3-9C61-3A8A0910E499@ingressus.se> Message-ID: The squirrel ran up the tree yet another time, straight up to the upper most branches with another nut to store away for the winter time. So many nuts in this very fertile world lay upon the forest floor that it would be impossible to gather them all. And yet, the squirrel in his expediency might forget there is more than one tree in the forest... that in another tree another squirrel is looking down watching all the other squirrels round up the nuts with the occasional chitter and spat over who's nut is whose. There will always be enough nuts to go around, even if they prove occasionally hard to crack. Oh, but then the trees are listening and watching too, as they gauge the proper time to drop nuts. And then the rains come, and then the snow. From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Oct 27 11:06:28 2016 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 11:06:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: <5811589f.434e420a.faff5.0ff8@mx.google.com> References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> <1477517565427.10215@iped.uio.no> <5811589f.434e420a.faff5.0ff8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <94138BB9-8315-4B20-A41C-D59DF341C42A@gmail.com> Hi, everyone - It took me a couple of days to contribute to this thread. I have three things to say. First, I guess I should acknowledge that a lot of time has passed and many of us are older. I joined this list about 20 years ago, as part of a class assignment given by Glynda Hull at the UC Berkeley School of Education. Ever since then, truth be told, it has been my primary source for intellectual stimulation about learning, education, teaching, and society. I am not exaggerating. It has been my post-graduate university. That having been said, the reason why is has been so central to me is probably because, compared to other professional associations like AERA, it has a substrate of at least international if not leftist politics. Since my main interest is not in school learning but workplace learning, the study of which requires paying attention to the social relations in which learning takes place (not teacher-class-learner relations, but employer-worker-representation relations), I can?t get very far in a discourse environment which takes for granted that those social relations are benign and created for the purpose of producing learning. So I need the discourse of XMCA, where work is at least sometimes the context in which learning is understood to take place. (The leftist aspect of this is when we start talking about learning that is not primarily intended to make workers more cooperative or productive. That?s ?training.") So XMCA has played an enormous role in my professional life. Thank you, Mike. Second, when I think about what I would really miss if XMCA faded or changed unintentionally, it?s that the people who are on it are real people and they are all over the world. There must be untold numbers of backchannel conversations that have produced experiences such as I have had, many of which I haven?t reported back to the list. When my husband and I went to Peru to talk with telephone workers, Paul Dillon (may he rest in peace) stayed up late with us in Lima debating the elements of an activity system, drawing those famous triangles. When we went to Viet Nam I sent out an email to the list asking for help in making an argument for home language education in places that were trying to become English-only, and not only got a small avalanche of helpful responses, I met Hans Lambrecht from Belgium and his wife ? a lurker, but present nonetheless. We have made and met in person many friends in Canada through this list. I was able to talk with Jean Lave because of this list. We have gone to Colin Barker?s wonderful Social Movements conference in Manchester ? twice, and read his sharp, dense papers on Academia. People I hope to meet in person some day in include Haydi in Iran and Andy Blunden in Australia. There are people all over the world on this list ? not necessarily contributing to the message flow, but reading, listening, and willing to meet in person to continue an already well-tended crop (I?m deliberately not saying ?garden?) of ideas. So when I think of XMCA it?s a lot more than just the words on the screen ? it?s real people out there with whom one has already begun a conversation. Third, with reference to Mike?s comment about not having a cumulative discussion that goes somewhere or adds up to something. Well, the river doesn?t accumulate. Instead, people go to it and take water out in buckets. Sorry about the metaphor: what I mean is that if you made a list of all the written material that has come about because of connections made on this list (like Andy?s book on collaborative projects, or Robert Lake?s book, or Stephen Billet?s book on apprenticeship ? these are the ones I know about because of having been involved in them), you would have quite a pile of accumulated works. This is to say nothing about the conferences, articles, journals that connect tangentially (like Peter Smagorinsky?s literacy journal) and research proposals that draw from the resource of XMCA. I think things like this are where the accumulation is found. On the list, people move from thread to thread in a graciously unregulated way (thanks to Mike?s gentle oversight) and invisibly, projects spin off from there in private backchannel emails, and get worked on and finished. Some of them will mention XMCA in their acknowledgements, many won?t; it?s too much of background, taken for granted. And all of this has been happening while the technology has been spinning ahead. When I say ?I belong to an email discussion list,? people in the next two generations down from me look at me as if I?m nuts. Someone else will have to deal with that. As far as the lack of women?s voices goes, I can?t comment other than that it seems to me that when there were more women contributing, the discussion had more current political content, which was a good thing because cultural psychology is supposed to be able to handle things like that, right? For example, police killings. If it can?t, that?s a problem. Maybe women are more ready to address the list with questions and problems that are not yet solved, trusting to the list to respond with a view from a place sufficiently far away to light up something invisible up close. But to the extent that the list is US-centric, and very male, it seems to be slow to talk politics. I actually cried some real tears when I read Mike?s message signing off. I had not really grasped how much a part of my intellectual and social world this list has been, until now. One day at a time ? Helena Helena Worthen Professor Emerita University of Illinois School of Labor and Employment Relations 21 San Mateo Road, Berkeley, CA 94707 Viet Nam blog: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > On Oct 26, 2016, at 6:29 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote: > > Phillip, Mike, > Yes, i was using archaic language turning back to Greece. > Yes also to Phillip that this turn may not be a good model for the reasons he offered. > My intent was to traverse time to recognize the themes are playing out historically and draw attention to the *middle voice* (which may also have an archaic aspect). > > Yes, back then MAN was used and therefore may be challenged as a mode that is no longer appropriate. > > The sensitive responses of the next posts do seem to have opened up this very complex topic. When traversing the move backwards caution is required. > The *middle voice* was what i was featuring. > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: mike cole > Sent: October 26, 2016 4:33 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Larry- I, too, reacted to the MEN in your note. I attributed it to what I > took to be your cutting and pasting from a google search using archaic > sources/langauage translated his note for myself in the following terms > using italics (you were seeking to characterize my mode of interacting): > > To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that is courteous, > serious, and concerned with the truth. When *participants in a conversation* > are thus seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they > are sorting things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which > *participants* can sort things for *themselves *is to expose *their *ideas > in this way to another?s criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of > dialegesthai; namely *to converse as one should* can be seen to be > equivalent to the meaning which etymology might lead us to put upon the > *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort for oneself. > > > Trying to figure things out is certainly what I strive to try to do in this > conversation, so that made sense. > > > The intertwining of content and style, as I have written previously, was > more than I could ever deal with. > > > mike > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> Phillip, Jay, all, >> >> Although I (as I am sure you too) appreciate Larry's post and quotation >> for what he intended the to do, I agree with Phillip's comment that the two >> issues, gender unbalance and chaining, are inherently connected. And, as in >> Larry's post, this connection may pass unnoticed by even the most well >> intentioned. One example of how tightly the two (unbalance and chaining, >> turn-taking I'd like to call it) are related may be found in our very >> recent discussion on Zaza's paper, where gendered issues were explicitly >> discussed. When we realise that a discussion is involving prototyping a >> prosthetic device for HIV-positive mother's breastfeeding in Zimbabwe, and >> only one woman (apart from author) engages in the discussion, we may have >> grounds to think that the problem is not about the topic, but about the >> chaining, the way the turns at a conversation are interlaced with each >> other, who takes a turn and how the turn opens or closes opportunities for >> others to partake in the conversation. And again, the topic itself maybe >> the issue, because, as Zaza's article very well shows (remember, e.g., the >> male's defensive comments on sexual harassment), talk about breastfeeding >> may be of very different topics depending on whether it is 6 males, 6 >> women, or a blend thereof who are discussing it. >> >> Thanks Jay for sharing the history with us, a history the newbies like me >> have not lived but may learn from. That history, together with the issues >> that the prior posts are outlining, suggests that the issue may not be so >> much about men and women per s?, as it may be about the exercise of an >> exclusivist academic genre that has historically been dominated by males, >> and which therefore privileges the voice of experienced males even when >> their last intention was to prevent women from participating. If so, we >> face a serious challenge, because it means that academic genre itself is >> the problem, but also the means we have for advancing our endeavour, the >> one xmca and mca are born for. Obviously, the challenge is not to be solved >> just here, in xmca, but everywhere else, and I believe there are many >> lines/fronts where it is being solved, though possibly much slower than it >> should. These are not news, but I think is good to articulate them again. >> >> In any case, and in line with some conversations about crisis going on in >> parallel to this one (the thread on micro genesis), for us to move forward >> our developmental path, there may have to be crisis, a phase in which, as >> David K. posses it, "the means of development turns back upon itself and >> itself undergoes development." Perhaps we have to face the contradiction of >> having to grow with and from a genre that has grown within a male dominated >> world to create a world of joint participation, not domination. For my >> part, I see two immediate things to do: always leave space between turns to >> make sure everyone (in principle) has the chance to participate; and always >> be self-aware of privilege, and open to be made aware by others. I am sure >> many more things may be added to this list, or may be said better. I hope >> people will help adding and/or improving it. >> >> Alfredo >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Jay Lemke >> Sent: 26 October 2016 22:51 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change >> >> At the risk of re-opening old wounds, I'll recall for the group and >> especially the more recent participants that long ago there was a rather >> explicit (and in some ways brutally uncomfortable) airing of the issues >> around gender imbalance. At the time quite a few women members left the >> listgroup (and for a time created one of their own). >> >> My memory of the outcome of the soul-searching at the time is that many >> male frequent contributors found themselves confounded (and for some in >> serious denial) of the perception by women (and many lurkers) that the >> dominant "core" was intimidating in tone or style of response, oblivious to >> their privilege as either more senior academics or just as men, and >> particularly of their totally unconscious sense of their right to hog the >> stage, as it were. Some of the women saw this as a failure to recognize >> gender privilege and deal with it. Many of the lurkers (male and female) >> felt that the heavy presence of a very few (almost all male) voices on the >> list was in itself off-putting to others, regardless of gender. A few >> voices were also raised saying that the native English-speakers were >> oblivious to our privilege and insufficiently sensitive to the positioning >> of others (ditto to some extent for those from outside N. America). >> >> Mike himself was largely exempted from these critiques explicitly, but >> implicitly I think he felt some responsibility for not having paid more >> attention to these problems before they found their critical moment. >> >> Most of the core contributors, as I recall, were rather defensive in their >> responses. I tried to be a mediating voice, and Mike asked, with his usual >> practical good sense, what we could actually do to fix things. Many of the >> women just left. For a time there were posts in Spanish, Portuguese, and >> occasionally other languages. Posters made explicit reference to >> differences in viewpoint due to national cultures or experiences. >> >> But with very few women posting, and as I recall those were then mainly the >> younger women and female grad students, no solution was found regarding the >> gender imbalance. (Note that by imbalance I think people then meant not >> mainly imbalance in membership, but in postings, and particularly in the >> extent to which postings by women were taken up by others and became longer >> threads. This "uptake effect" was something a lot of people paid attention >> to -- and not just regarding gender, and one of the active women members >> even did a quantitative study of it at the time.) >> >> Others may remember things differently, and their recollections would be >> most welcome. Maybe in a separate thread? >> >> JAY. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jay Lemke >> Professor Emeritus >> City University of New York >> www.jaylemke.com >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:08 PM, White, Phillip < >> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> >> wrote: >> >>> Larry, you reiterated Mike's pointing out two concerns; >>> >>> >>> As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your >>> question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for >> our >>> time. >>> >>> >>> and you discussed them as two separate issues - "gender imbalance", and >>> "chaining", and then you illuminated chaining as - >>> >>> >>> Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected >> dialectic >>> with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or >>> dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is >>> the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with >> each >>> other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly >> along >>> these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation >> that >>> is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus >>> seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are >> sorting >>> things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can >> sort >>> things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s >>> criticism. >>> >>> first, I'm surprised that you didn't note sic, in the quote, "When men >>> (sic) are thus seriously conversing ...". but, second, I'd like to point >>> out that this genre of mansplaining is most often hierarchically >>> structured, so that male dominance is maintained. if you look back at >> the >>> great majority of chaining in xmca, you'll see that it is dominated by >> two >>> or three males voices. and rather than, as you explain, and roughly the >>> only way in which a man can sort things for himself is to expose his >> ideas >>> in this way to another?s criticism., i suggest that it is a culturally >> male >>> privileged genre, as Foucault would put it, of maintaining power, >> privilege >>> and prerogative. >>> >>> >>> if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively concerned >>> along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in participation, then i >>> think that there needs to be a recognition that the current chaining >>> practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance. >>> >>> >>> phillip >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM >>> To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change >>> >>> Mike, >>> My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or >>> quest through living the questions. >>> >>> As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your >>> question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for >> our >>> time. >>> The question of gender brings up Franklin?s classroom where the girls >> know >>> we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen >>> and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play >> they >>> form a *clique* of superheros. >>> Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender >>> imbalance. >>> >>> The 2nd question of chaining. >>> You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding >>> and development of our community. >>> >>> Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to >>> express my testament and gratitude. >>> I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. >>> I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my >>> personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and >>> forth. >>> >>> Here is what caught my ear. >>> >>> Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected >> dialectic >>> with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or >>> dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is >>> the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with >> each >>> other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly >> along >>> these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation >> that >>> is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus >>> seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are >> sorting >>> things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can >> sort >>> things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s >>> criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to >> converse >>> as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which >> etymology >>> might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort >>> for oneself. >>> >>> Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony?s now >>> being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing >>> legacy AND the living questions you posed. >>> >>> I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the >>> intertwining. >>> My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience >> and >>> conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of >>> well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. >>> In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. >>> Thank you >>> >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>> >>> From: Jay Lemke >>> Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change >>> >>> Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation >> for >>> Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking >> as >>> one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most >>> beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. >>> >>> To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to >> talk >>> with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity >> of >>> intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager >> to >>> hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand >>> unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many >> of >>> us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what >>> others were thinking. >>> >>> The history of this community has not been like that of specialist >>> scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has >>> rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts >> we >>> have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or >>> viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from >>> entirely different premises. >>> >>> Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we >>> stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of >>> Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to >>> make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting >>> benefit of us all. >>> >>> JAY. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jay Lemke >>> Professor Emeritus >>> City University of New York >>> www.jaylemke.com >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >>> >>>> Esteemed Mike, >>>> I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by >> the >>>> other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing >> the >>>> dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often >>>> challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring >>> to >>>> bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. >>>> With great respect >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Mike, >>>>> >>>>> As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and >>> think >>>> about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some >> terrifically >>>> interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it >> going. >>>>> >>>>> With gratitude and very best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> Wendy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > edu >>>> >>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>>> Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 >>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change >>>>> >>>>> Mike, all, >>>>> >>>>> thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of >>>> years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have >>>> invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community >>> like >>>> xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to >> write >>> in >>>> a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat >>>> literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking >> from >>>> time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I >> first >>>> felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt >>>> welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from >>> which >>>> I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my >>>> hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, >>> and a >>>> little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the >>>> trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to >>>> become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In >> the >>>> little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words >> of >>>> those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how >>> important >>>> your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much >>> respect >>>> you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a >>> very >>>> important sense is giving us freedom. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the >>> others. >>>> For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, >> it >>>> feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but >> of >>>> course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be >>>> pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has >>>> presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient >>>> term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov >>>> (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear >> that >>>> "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I >>>> will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca >>> and >>>> anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake >> in >>>> xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns >>> from >>>> the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing >>> with >>>> xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very >>>> honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that >>> xmca >>>> has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue >> growing. >>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > edu >>>> >>>> on behalf of Chuck Bazerman >>>>> Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 >>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change >>>>> >>>>> Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how >>>>> much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting >>> thoughts >>>>> and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will >> have >>>>> the leisure and pleasure of lurking. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Chuck >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Oct 27 11:08:02 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 18:08:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello. I believe that if there is a true concern about gender imbalances on this list, there are many untried ways. Also, if I might offer with an unscientific opinion, that maybe chaining is an effect, not a cause. I am doubtful that preventing chaining is going to solve the problem. Without meaning to sound flip, perhaps one of the ways to solve a problem is to identify exactly what it is, how it starts. As Vygotsky shows us, to consider its genesis, and.. its history, its society, its tools, its culture. What amazes me is that there is an adoration of theory, a revelry of tools, a congratulatory society, but a neglect of application of the knowledge to create a welcoming culture. It can't be entirely dependent upon one person or a few, which I believe Mike would agree. As we have heard, it takes a village. So... it's not as if there is no awareness or means to deliver a solution. Perhaps instead it has to do with application and will. Bad habits are hard to break, but that doesn't mean because they are hard to break that we should give up. ...if the problem doesn't resolve by itself... it should be unremarkable to note that problems rarely do go away by themselves. Like many political problems, if the the most influential or most active behave along the lines that ignoring a problem is the best solution, so that then we can all pretend there is no problem and with enough time...voila! there is no problem!! (Meh) Another possibility to consider is that ignorance to solve a problem is a noble thing to admit, and in that case, if that is the case, it's time to listen to Others, and if that does not work, then to consider finding professional outside help. For example, in this wide world there has to be many many people who are skilled at handling inequality in the workplace and in the classroom. And teaching others those skills. One example is the (now defunct) Ada Initiative's Ally Skills Workshop: https://adainitiative.org/continue-our-work/workshops-and-training/ I can't believe that this is the only practitioner there is out there, but you get the idea. I say this because there is in a sense a dichotomy of The Men and The Women of The List, but perhaps that dichotomy is what causes the wrong kind of tensions, and it requires a third (dialectical) entity of someone to enter the fray who does not have to risk reputation or save face to break up the ice flows. Here is a 30 minute lecture by Ada co-Founder, Valerie Aurora: https://youtu.be/Y2F_Bmx_CNE The Ada Initiative was a great effort, but it shut after a short run. See: https://adainitiative.org/2015/08/04/announcing-the-shutdown-of-the-ada-initiative/ Maybe there is something to glean there? Raising consciousness despite a cold and continuing rain... Kind regards, Annalisa From jennamcjenna@gmail.com Thu Oct 27 11:53:34 2016 From: jennamcjenna@gmail.com (Jacob McWilliams) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 12:53:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I spent several days hesitating and debating over whether to jump in on this thread, even though I have extremely strong feelings about this issue. First, some positionality: I write as a relative newcomer to xmca, having joined the listserv about 7 years ago. When I joined, I identified as a woman. Today I identify as a transgender man. This perspective leads me to start by arguing that the issue isn't (only) about how many women post, and how frequently, or about whether women's posts are taken up by others on the listserv. Rather, in my experience the problem is that gendered concerns are rarely taken up, regardless of the gender identity of the person who introduces them. For example, I remember trying to push for a conversation about trigger warnings a few years back; that conversation focused for a tiny bit on "academic freedom" but almost not at all on the epistemological or theoretical (feminist) concerns that lie beneath the movement toward trauma-inclusive education. I'm obviously still a subscriber to the listserv, but I'm also almost exclusively a lurker. Every once in a while I see a thread that makes me think something like "oh, a feminist framework would take this idea on differently..." but I almost never jump in to the thread to share these thoughts. What's the point, after all, if you know you're going to spend time and energy crafting an idea or a provocation that is going to fall with a thud? Certainly, female academics care about a whole host of things *other *than gendered issues. But what I perceive as a general disinterest in perspectives that incorporate a gender or feminist framework is, I think, a significant reason that accounts for why the listserv is dominated by men. I've learned a lot--a LOT--from xmca. I consider this listserv to be a really important piece of my doctoral education, and I've loved having access to people like Mike and other foundational theory-builders. But my learning has mostly been through lurking, and not through active participation. I participate in theory-building and problem-solving on other listservs. Jacob (formerly Jenna) McWilliams Learning Sciences and Human Development Program University of Colorado Boulder j.mcwilliams@colorado.edu http://www.jacobmcwilliams.com On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 12:08 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello. > > > I believe that if there is a true concern about gender imbalances on this > list, there are many untried ways. > > > Also, if I might offer with an unscientific opinion, that maybe chaining > is an effect, not a cause. I am doubtful that preventing chaining is going > to solve the problem. > > > Without meaning to sound flip, perhaps one of the ways to solve a problem > is to identify exactly what it is, how it starts. As Vygotsky shows us, to > consider its genesis, and.. its history, its society, its tools, its > culture. > > > What amazes me is that there is an adoration of theory, a revelry of > tools, a congratulatory society, but a neglect of application of the > knowledge to create a welcoming culture. It can't be entirely dependent > upon one person or a few, which I believe Mike would agree. As we have > heard, it takes a village. > > > So... it's not as if there is no awareness or means to deliver a solution. > Perhaps instead it has to do with application and will. > > > Bad habits are hard to break, but that doesn't mean because they are hard > to break that we should give up. > > > ...if the problem doesn't resolve by itself... it should be unremarkable > to note that problems rarely do go away by themselves. Like many political > problems, if the the most influential or most active behave along the lines > that ignoring a problem is the best solution, so that then we can all > pretend there is no problem and with enough time...voila! there is no > problem!! (Meh) > > > Another possibility to consider is that ignorance to solve a problem is a > noble thing to admit, and in that case, if that is the case, it's time to > listen to Others, and if that does not work, then to consider finding > professional outside help. > > > For example, in this wide world there has to be many many people who are > skilled at handling inequality in the workplace and in the classroom. And > teaching others those skills. > > > One example is the (now defunct) Ada Initiative's Ally Skills Workshop: > > https://adainitiative.org/continue-our-work/workshops-and-training/ > > > I can't believe that this is the only practitioner there is out there, but > you get the idea. > > > I say this because there is in a sense a dichotomy of The Men and The > Women of The List, but perhaps that dichotomy is what causes the wrong kind > of tensions, and it requires a third (dialectical) entity of someone to > enter the fray who does not have to risk reputation or save face to break > up the ice flows. > > > Here is a 30 minute lecture by Ada co-Founder, Valerie Aurora: > > https://youtu.be/Y2F_Bmx_CNE > > > The Ada Initiative was a great effort, but it shut after a short run. See: > > https://adainitiative.org/2015/08/04/announcing-the-shutdown-of-the-ada- > initiative/ > > > Maybe there is something to glean there? > > > Raising consciousness despite a cold and continuing rain... > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Oct 27 13:07:39 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 20:07:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hello, I am very sympathetic to Jacob's post. I think what I want to respond to immediately, and I hope respectfully, is the underlying emotion and hurt I sense in his post, feelings which I share. It is one thing that perhaps isn't addressed because it is non-academic in nature, too messy or too irrational or overwrought. I have solidarity with Jacob's appeal to consider the the subtle hurtful practices that just end up causing Others not to participate. No one wants to be called a whiner, or complainer, or be considered "too sensitive," which just adds insult to injury, by the way. And yet the problem stubbornly remains. Of course, I do not say these things in a general way: there are some very sensitive, evolved, and mature people on this list who sincerely want to create a just and equal space here. However, the labor involved to create that space has to be shared. It cannot be the victims of the hurt who must carry the labor of fixing the problem. In a car wreck (for example!), we don't expect those who are injured to drive themselves to the hospital. Emotional injury should be no different. Saying "I'm sorry," is a powerful bridge maker, and also listening with an intent to learn to be better. Empathy for a fellow human being goes a long, long way, as well as reaching out to ask for understanding. No one is requesting perfection. Well maybe some of us do, but we will be in the minority. I just spent the half hour watching the Ally Workshop video at youTube, and there you will learn about many unsavory scenarios that will never happen on this list serve. Still, there are many subtle dogwhistles in posts sometimes that signal and threaten many women and Others, who have worked too much of a hard-scrabble journey to get where they are to jeopardize all that in a display of defensiveness on a listserv where a post could sit for a few decades. [Suggestion: Might it be possible to instill a listserv policy that an aggrieved person who calls out can request the texts of one's own posts removed, with a fidelity for a "right to be forgotten"? Clearly, this has to be done on a case by case basis, but I myself am unclear of such a policy.] Just as an injured person from a car wreck cannot know how to operate upon her own injuries, it's a lot to expect the same harmed constituencies to advocate all the time for a better listserv so as to prevent future injury. That is why those voices are silent is my best guess, even though I do not mean to speak for all Others, I can say that for myself. Also... even though such nefarious exchanges as described in the Ally Workshop don't happen on this listserv, it is a nagging fact that they still exist in the world in which we live. So there are triggers, or not to be as gun-happy in metaphor, there are aromas. It is hard sit in a room that just smells bad. And it is impossible to battle a bad smell without opening some windows. Many of us have to slog these unwelcome realities out in the real world and it is not easy to place that baggage down at the door. Which is why an aroma can be sometimes far more offensive on the list than someone making an obviously crude and baldly offensive comment. As a consequence, rather than get bogged down by this emotionality and defensiveness (as Jacob points out, we can be interested in other things), we either lurk or we just stop reading and do Other Things. What I hope to bring focus at this point Most of All is the Lost Opportunity for those who think the status quo is just fine. But also to those who don't think that it is fine. We are Losing Out because of all what hasn't been shared in the entire life of this listserv. Strike that, we have Lost Out. It isn't something that can be analyzed, so it is impossible to think that the solution will be found in past discourses on the list. If there is, it will only be the tip of a very large iceberg that will never be seen, cannot be detected, because it exists far below the surface of the textual discourse of posts. I do not intend to be binary about this. There have been plenty of tremendously rewarding discussions I have had the privilege to benefit from XMCA. I have learned from adversarial discussions too. I warrant that am learning now. Might I emphasize that we simply cannot know How Much Better the list could be if there had been more plural voices who feel safe enough to connect here. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Oct 27 13:31:47 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 13:31:47 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] PhD Fellowship in Language and Learning at the University of Oslo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Imac Maria Zambrana* Date: Thursday, 27 October 2016 Subject: [COGDEVSOC] PhD Fellowship in Language and Learning at the University of Oslo To: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org Dear Colleagues, The Department of Special Needs Education at the Faculty of Educational Sciences, University of Oslo is accepting applications for a 3-4 year Ph.D. fellowship on early language and learning. http://uio.easycruit.com/vacancy/1700043/65784?iso=no We are particularly looking for strong candidates interested in the relationships between child language (or communicative interactions) and learning, either using experimental, observational or other quantitative methods. The research at our department is cross-disciplinary, and applicants from Special Needs Education, Education, Developmental Psychology, Linguistics or other related disciplines are encouraged to apply. International students are encouraged to apply and conditions are very good in Norway. We are moreover in the process of establishing a lab focusing on cognitive, language and social abilities and disabilities, which can provide opportunities for data collection space and materials. Please note the very tight deadline, on *November 16th*, 2016! For additional details, please contact: Assistant Professor, Imac Maria Zambrana (i.m.zambrana@isp.uio.no ) Best, Imac Maria Zambrana, PhD Assistant Professor, Department of Special Needs Education, University of Oslo From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Oct 27 14:34:06 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 21:34:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> Helena, Analissa, Jacob, all, thanks so much for sharing your invaluable thoughts and experiences. It strikes me as very interesting and positive finding that xmca has so much more for the world out there than what one can tell by just looking at what appears in the e-mail thread itself. I should myself testify to this truth: I have in many occasions gone back to readings and/or conversations that were sparked by threads going on at xmca where I had not contributed and no one would have been able to tell wether xmca had had anything to do with whatever (cumulative) product may have emerged from there. It is also truth that some of the times in which xmca has had a biggest impact in me have been when I had to articulate myself, to unfold in writing by addressing/responding to others, taking active part in whatever a thread was to become. Clearly, there are different levels/places in which the ?cumulative? problem that Mike poses exists as a different problem, and none should be ignored; all are valuable and worth taken care of. Thanks to ALL for making visible the lines of development that remain invisible to the mail list but which nonetheless begin there, for good and for bad. Making sure that EVERYONE feels welcome and worth participating is surely a premise for any form of accumulation, collective, personal, visible, or invisible. I think that what many of the posts in this thread are showing us, in addition to the profound respect to Mike and his borderless generosity, is that the challenges that Mike has identified are re-definable rather than solvable, or that part of their solution requires a re-definition of the problems. As David Kirsh nicely summarises in his chapter in the Cambridge Handbook of Situated Cognition, solving problems is more about framing and defining them than about searching for their solution. Experiences such as those by Jacob are invaluable input (thanks so much for sharing!). But hear surely invisibly listening, as Analissa seems to suggest, may not be enough. I hear Analissa asking everyone to take responsibility in acting upon what, for many, is a problem. Just as we have to work out what the problem is, it is in and as the WORK that a solution exists. In a book that has had some influence in recent MCA publications, Tim Ingold cites Spanish thinker/writer Jos? Ortega y Gasset to remind us that ?The only thing that is given to us and that is when ther is human life is the *having to make it*, the fact that ?life is a task.? As such, I think we surely need materials such as the one Analissa has shared. Whether the particular one she has now shared is more or less helpful, more or less sensible, whether the term "allie" is appropriate, etc, may be the topic of another thread, or an extension to this one. Obviously, being about supporting woman in open technology, this link is relevant to xmca. But what I take for this thread is that, as a task, addressing (framing, re-defining) xmca?s challenges with regard to gender needs to be approach with the openness to learning that other educational tasks require. Analissa, I take your suggestion on being able to remove one?s own texts verbatim and will transmit it to the persons that will know whether that is technically possible or not (I guess it will be possible to take them out of the archive in the xmca pages, but I also believe that it will remain in anyone else mailbox unless they do not delete it themselves; but let me find out with someone with the appropriate competence to answer). Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 27 October 2016 22:07 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Hello, I am very sympathetic to Jacob's post. I think what I want to respond to immediately, and I hope respectfully, is the underlying emotion and hurt I sense in his post, feelings which I share. It is one thing that perhaps isn't addressed because it is non-academic in nature, too messy or too irrational or overwrought. I have solidarity with Jacob's appeal to consider the the subtle hurtful practices that just end up causing Others not to participate. No one wants to be called a whiner, or complainer, or be considered "too sensitive," which just adds insult to injury, by the way. And yet the problem stubbornly remains. Of course, I do not say these things in a general way: there are some very sensitive, evolved, and mature people on this list who sincerely want to create a just and equal space here. However, the labor involved to create that space has to be shared. It cannot be the victims of the hurt who must carry the labor of fixing the problem. In a car wreck (for example!), we don't expect those who are injured to drive themselves to the hospital. Emotional injury should be no different. Saying "I'm sorry," is a powerful bridge maker, and also listening with an intent to learn to be better. Empathy for a fellow human being goes a long, long way, as well as reaching out to ask for understanding. No one is requesting perfection. Well maybe some of us do, but we will be in the minority. I just spent the half hour watching the Ally Workshop video at youTube, and there you will learn about many unsavory scenarios that will never happen on this list serve. Still, there are many subtle dogwhistles in posts sometimes that signal and threaten many women and Others, who have worked too much of a hard-scrabble journey to get where they are to jeopardize all that in a display of defensiveness on a listserv where a post could sit for a few decades. [Suggestion: Might it be possible to instill a listserv policy that an aggrieved person who calls out can request the texts of one's own posts removed, with a fidelity for a "right to be forgotten"? Clearly, this has to be done on a case by case basis, but I myself am unclear of such a policy.] Just as an injured person from a car wreck cannot know how to operate upon her own injuries, it's a lot to expect the same harmed constituencies to advocate all the time for a better listserv so as to prevent future injury. That is why those voices are silent is my best guess, even though I do not mean to speak for all Others, I can say that for myself. Also... even though such nefarious exchanges as described in the Ally Workshop don't happen on this listserv, it is a nagging fact that they still exist in the world in which we live. So there are triggers, or not to be as gun-happy in metaphor, there are aromas. It is hard sit in a room that just smells bad. And it is impossible to battle a bad smell without opening some windows. Many of us have to slog these unwelcome realities out in the real world and it is not easy to place that baggage down at the door. Which is why an aroma can be sometimes far more offensive on the list than someone making an obviously crude and baldly offensive comment. As a consequence, rather than get bogged down by this emotionality and defensiveness (as Jacob points out, we can be interested in other things), we either lurk or we just stop reading and do Other Things. What I hope to bring focus at this point Most of All is the Lost Opportunity for those who think the status quo is just fine. But also to those who don't think that it is fine. We are Losing Out because of all what hasn't been shared in the entire life of this listserv. Strike that, we have Lost Out. It isn't something that can be analyzed, so it is impossible to think that the solution will be found in past discourses on the list. If there is, it will only be the tip of a very large iceberg that will never be seen, cannot be detected, because it exists far below the surface of the textual discourse of posts. I do not intend to be binary about this. There have been plenty of tremendously rewarding discussions I have had the privilege to benefit from XMCA. I have learned from adversarial discussions too. I warrant that am learning now. Might I emphasize that we simply cannot know How Much Better the list could be if there had been more plural voices who feel safe enough to connect here. Kind regards, Annalisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 27 17:02:46 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 01:02:46 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On 26 October 2016 at 21:08, White, Phillip wrote: > [...] > if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively concerned > along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in participation, then i > think that there needs to be a recognition that the current chaining > practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance. > Chaining chaining, Phillip? :) > > > phillip > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM > To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Mike, > My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or > quest through living the questions. > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our > time. > The question of gender brings up Franklin?s classroom where the girls know > we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen > and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play they > form a *clique* of superheros. > Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender > imbalance. > > The 2nd question of chaining. > You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding > and development of our community. > > Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to > express my testament and gratitude. > I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. > I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my > personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and > forth. > > Here is what caught my ear. > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to converse > as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which etymology > might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort > for oneself. > > Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony?s now > being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing > legacy AND the living questions you posed. > > I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the > intertwining. > My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience and > conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of > well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. > In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. > Thank you > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Jay Lemke > Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation for > Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking as > one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most > beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. > > To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to talk > with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity of > intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager to > hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand > unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many of > us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what > others were thinking. > > The history of this community has not been like that of specialist > scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has > rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts we > have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or > viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from > entirely different premises. > > Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we > stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of > Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to > make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting > benefit of us all. > > JAY. > > > > Jay Lemke > Professor Emeritus > City University of New York > www.jaylemke.com > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Esteemed Mike, > > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by the > > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing the > > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often > > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring > to > > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > > With great respect > > Henry > > > > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and > think > > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some terrifically > > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. > > > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, all, > > > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of > > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community > like > > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write > in > > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat > > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from > > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first > > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt > > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from > which > > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my > > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, > and a > > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the > > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to > > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the > > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of > > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how > important > > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much > respect > > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a > very > > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the > others. > > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it > > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of > > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be > > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has > > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient > > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov > > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that > > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I > > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca > and > > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in > > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns > from > > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing > with > > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very > > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that > xmca > > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. > > Thanks, > > > > > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting > thoughts > > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have > > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > > Best, > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 27 17:18:56 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 01:18:56 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Social protocols are best. Flag it on the subject line: (S)low conversation, no (H)ogging, no h(U)mping, (F)emale please, etc. XKCD on Penises . On 27 October 2016 at 22:34, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Helena, Analissa, Jacob, all, > > thanks so much for sharing your invaluable thoughts and experiences. It > strikes me as very interesting and positive finding that xmca has so much > more for the world out there than what one can tell by just looking at what > appears in the e-mail thread itself. I should myself testify to this truth: > I have in many occasions gone back to readings and/or conversations that > were sparked by threads going on at xmca where I had not contributed and no > one would have been able to tell wether xmca had had anything to do with > whatever (cumulative) product may have emerged from there. It is also truth > that some of the times in which xmca has had a biggest impact in me have > been when I had to articulate myself, to unfold in writing by > addressing/responding to others, taking active part in whatever a thread > was to become. Clearly, there are different levels/places in which the > ?cumulative? problem that Mike poses exists as a different problem, and > none should be ignored; all are valuable and worth taken care of. Thanks to > ALL for making visible the lines of development that remain invisible to > the mail list but which nonetheless begin there, for good and for bad. > Making sure that EVERYONE feels welcome and worth participating is surely a > premise for any form of accumulation, collective, personal, visible, or > invisible. > > I think that what many of the posts in this thread are showing us, in > addition to the profound respect to Mike and his borderless generosity, is > that the challenges that Mike has identified are re-definable rather than > solvable, or that part of their solution requires a re-definition of the > problems. As David Kirsh nicely summarises in his chapter in the Cambridge > Handbook of Situated Cognition, solving problems is more about framing and > defining them than about searching for their solution. Experiences such as > those by Jacob are invaluable input (thanks so much for sharing!). But hear > surely invisibly listening, as Analissa seems to suggest, may not be > enough. I hear Analissa asking everyone to take responsibility in acting > upon what, for many, is a problem. Just as we have to work out what the > problem is, it is in and as the WORK that a solution exists. In a book that > has had some influence in recent MCA publications, Tim Ingold cites Spanish > thinker/writer Jos? Ortega y Gasset to remind us that ?The only thing that > is given to us and that is when ther is human life is the *having to make > it*, the fact that ?life is a task.? As such, I think we surely need > materials such as the one Analissa has shared. Whether the particular one > she has now shared is more or less helpful, more or less sensible, whether > the term "allie" is appropriate, etc, may be the topic of another thread, > or an extension to this one. Obviously, being about supporting woman in > open technology, this link is relevant to xmca. But what I take for this > thread is that, as a task, addressing (framing, re-defining) xmca?s > challenges with regard to gender needs to be approach with the openness to > learning that other educational tasks require. > > Analissa, I take your suggestion on being able to remove one?s own texts > verbatim and will transmit it to the persons that will know whether that is > technically possible or not (I guess it will be possible to take them out > of the archive in the xmca pages, but I also believe that it will remain in > anyone else mailbox unless they do not delete it themselves; but let me > find out with someone with the appropriate competence to answer). > Alfredo > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: 27 October 2016 22:07 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > Hello, > > > I am very sympathetic to Jacob's post. I think what I want to respond to > immediately, and I hope respectfully, is the underlying emotion and hurt I > sense in his post, feelings which I share. It is one thing that perhaps > isn't addressed because it is non-academic in nature, too messy or too > irrational or overwrought. I have solidarity with Jacob's appeal to > consider the the subtle hurtful practices that just end up causing Others > not to participate. > > > No one wants to be called a whiner, or complainer, or be considered "too > sensitive," which just adds insult to injury, by the way. And yet the > problem stubbornly remains. > > > Of course, I do not say these things in a general way: there are some very > sensitive, evolved, and mature people on this list who sincerely want to > create a just and equal space here. However, the labor involved to create > that space has to be shared. It cannot be the victims of the hurt who must > carry the labor of fixing the problem. > > > In a car wreck (for example!), we don't expect those who are injured to > drive themselves to the hospital. Emotional injury should be no different. > Saying "I'm sorry," is a powerful bridge maker, and also listening with an > intent to learn to be better. Empathy for a fellow human being goes a long, > long way, as well as reaching out to ask for understanding. No one is > requesting perfection. Well maybe some of us do, but we will be in the > minority. > > > I just spent the half hour watching the Ally Workshop video at youTube, > and there you will learn about many unsavory scenarios that will never > happen on this list serve. Still, there are many subtle dogwhistles in > posts sometimes that signal and threaten many women and Others, who have > worked too much of a hard-scrabble journey to get where they are to > jeopardize all that in a display of defensiveness on a listserv where a > post could sit for a few decades. > > > [Suggestion: Might it be possible to instill a listserv policy that an > aggrieved person who calls out can request the texts of one's own posts > removed, with a fidelity for a "right to be forgotten"? Clearly, this has > to be done on a case by case basis, but I myself am unclear of such a > policy.] > > > Just as an injured person from a car wreck cannot know how to operate upon > her own injuries, it's a lot to expect the same harmed constituencies to > advocate all the time for a better listserv so as to prevent future injury. > That is why those voices are silent is my best guess, even though I do not > mean to speak for all Others, I can say that for myself. > > > Also... even though such nefarious exchanges as described in the Ally > Workshop don't happen on this listserv, it is a nagging fact that they > still exist in the world in which we live. So there are triggers, or not to > be as gun-happy in metaphor, there are aromas. It is hard sit in a room > that just smells bad. And it is impossible to battle a bad smell without > opening some windows. > > > Many of us have to slog these unwelcome realities out in the real world > and it is not easy to place that baggage down at the door. Which is why an > aroma can be sometimes far more offensive on the list than someone making > an obviously crude and baldly offensive comment. > > > As a consequence, rather than get bogged down by this emotionality and > defensiveness (as Jacob points out, we can be interested in other things), > we either lurk or we just stop reading and do Other Things. > > > What I hope to bring focus at this point Most of All is the Lost > Opportunity for those who think the status quo is just fine. But also to > those who don't think that it is fine. > > > We are Losing Out because of all what hasn't been shared in the entire > life of this listserv. Strike that, we have Lost Out. It isn't something > that can be analyzed, so it is impossible to think that the solution will > be found in past discourses on the list. If there is, it will only be the > tip of a very large iceberg that will never be seen, cannot be detected, > because it exists far below the surface of the textual discourse of posts. > > > I do not intend to be binary about this. There have been plenty of > tremendously rewarding discussions I have had the privilege to benefit from > XMCA. I have learned from adversarial discussions too. I warrant that am > learning now. Might I emphasize that we simply cannot know How Much Better > the list could be if there had been more plural voices who feel safe enough > to connect here. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Oct 27 17:52:16 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 00:52:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> References: , , , <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Hello Alfredo, Thanks for your very thoughtful reply. I'm quite happy to see that the message got through to you, but not Huw. I cannot say with certainty what the solution is, but I think it is safe to offer that many would welcome an open discussion and search for one void of ridicule and sarcasm. Whether that means reframing or redefining, I don't know. I think it's just a tired old problem and I can feel hopeless about it especially when reading what Jacob and Huw posted today. That's how I come to my own conclusion that don't think that it is something we can work out all by ourselves, that we need to include "professionals" who are skilled in sensitizing the patterns that Others find harmful and unwelcoming, and so to me it means looking to other places where the work has been done and done relatively successfully. An XMCA Task Force perhaps. Not long after my entry to the list a few years back, I'd offered to curate a newcomer's page, but nothing came of that. I'm not certain I have the time at present to do something like that, but if I were, I'd want to know that the work I do is going to count for something of value. Who wouldn't feel that way? Annalisa <-- please note the spelling. Thanks. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Oct 27 18:22:21 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 02:22:21 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: > > > I'm quite happy to see that the message got through to you, but not Huw. I > cannot say with certainty what the solution is, but I think it is safe to > offer that many would welcome an open discussion and search for one void of > ridicule and sarcasm. > > > Well, to the tech question, Social protocols work best. No humour == no list, I think. But sarcasm is a big no-no for me -- v. tiresome. Irony is much better. So, do you say no humour with certain people, even if they make posts about squirrels? Seems like rule making to me. I think I will take advice of that video from Annalisa's about 2nd post. Apologies, and err no humour from me. Things to do. Best, Huw From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Oct 27 20:14:53 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 03:14:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> , Message-ID: Given the recent appalling US political discourse of grabbing women by genitals, I don't see anything humorous about jokes about genitals whether male or not, nor humping females in subject lines whether comma or not. It's simply not appropriate. But at least now the example has been laid bare and quite expediently. This isn't Benny Hill. From dkirsh@lsu.edu Thu Oct 27 20:18:49 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 03:18:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> , Message-ID: Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than intimidation, itself. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 10:15 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Given the recent appalling US political discourse of grabbing women by genitals, I don't see anything humorous about jokes about genitals whether male or not, nor humping females in subject lines whether comma or not. It's simply not appropriate. But at least now the example has been laid bare and quite expediently. This isn't Benny Hill. From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Oct 27 20:24:29 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 03:24:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> , , Message-ID: Thank you for the explanation. Why not address Huw? Why me? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David H Kirshner Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than intimidation, itself. David From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Thu Oct 27 21:12:04 2016 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 04:12:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> , Message-ID: you're right, Huw, after chaining, chaining, then it's knit one, purl two. (;-) you're absolutely right - i thought to myself, absolutely i'm engaging in chaining. and gave myself a pass on it, because, like Jacob, i view myself as fairly marginal - a highly peripheral participant to use Lave & Wenger's metaphor. and at the same time i've not continued in the chaining - because i hoped, and it turned out to be the case, that over time additional responses have continued. and i think that now, beginning with Jay's comments regarding speakers of different languages having felt to be outsiders, and over time other observations have come forth, the last being Jacob's, that the issue really isn't just about gender, it's about how individuals are marginalised / ignored / shut down, by dominant participants. and over the last year i confess i've missed your wry wit. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 6:02:46 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change On 26 October 2016 at 21:08, White, Phillip wrote: > [...] > if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively concerned > along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in participation, then i > think that there needs to be a recognition that the current chaining > practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance. > Chaining chaining, Phillip? :) > > > phillip > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM > To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Mike, > My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or > quest through living the questions. > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our > time. > The question of gender brings up Franklin?s classroom where the girls know > we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen > and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play they > form a *clique* of superheros. > Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender > imbalance. > > The 2nd question of chaining. > You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding > and development of our community. > > Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to > express my testament and gratitude. > I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. > I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my > personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and > forth. > > Here is what caught my ear. > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to converse > as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which etymology > might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort > for oneself. > > Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony?s now > being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing > legacy AND the living questions you posed. > > I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the > intertwining. > My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience and > conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of > well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. > In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. > Thank you > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Jay Lemke > Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation for > Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking as > one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most > beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. > > To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to talk > with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity of > intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager to > hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand > unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many of > us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what > others were thinking. > > The history of this community has not been like that of specialist > scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has > rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts we > have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or > viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from > entirely different premises. > > Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we > stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of > Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to > make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting > benefit of us all. > > JAY. > > > > Jay Lemke > Professor Emeritus > City University of New York > www.jaylemke.com Jay Lemke Online - Home www.jaylemke.com Jay Lemke is Professor Emeritus at the City University of New York. He has also been Professor in the PhD Programs in Science Education, Learning Technologies, and ... > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Esteemed Mike, > > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by the > > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing the > > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often > > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring > to > > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > > With great respect > > Henry > > > > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and > think > > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some terrifically > > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. > > > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, all, > > > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of > > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community > like > > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write > in > > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat > > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from > > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first > > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt > > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from > which > > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my > > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, > and a > > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the > > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to > > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the > > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of > > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how > important > > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much > respect > > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a > very > > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the > others. > > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it > > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of > > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be > > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has > > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient > > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov > > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that > > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I > > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca > and > > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in > > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns > from > > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing > with > > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very > > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that > xmca > > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. > > Thanks, > > > > > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting > thoughts > > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have > > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > > Best, > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Oct 27 22:35:57 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 22:35:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change In-Reply-To: References: <1477366917413.63060@iped.uio.no> <5810d9cb.c283620a.6ccca.a96c@mx.google.com> , Message-ID: <5812e3c5.5112620a.d41d2.855e@mx.google.com> Phillip, And also to return to what Vivian P. Says all the girls know. One male in the play center will enter the spirit of the girl?s play. Two males, if they are the right combination also will enter the spirit of the girl?s play. However, if 3 boys enter the centers space they will form a clique of superheros. All the girls know this. But what is the genesis of this. Is it a type of sociogenesis that is such a general cultural phenomena in primary classrooms that it seems to be a *natural* expression? My question is suggesting how common this phenomena is that when Vivian describes it we all recognize what she is referring to and that this pattern is in place by primary school. Feminist scholarship may offer insights. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: White, Phillip Sent: October 27, 2016 9:15 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change you're right, Huw, after chaining, chaining, then it's knit one, purl two. (;-) you're absolutely right - i thought to myself, absolutely i'm engaging in chaining. and gave myself a pass on it, because, like Jacob, i view myself as fairly marginal - a highly peripheral participant to use Lave & Wenger's metaphor. and at the same time i've not continued in the chaining - because i hoped, and it turned out to be the case, that over time additional responses have continued. and i think that now, beginning with Jay's comments regarding speakers of different languages having felt to be outsiders, and over time other observations have come forth, the last being Jacob's, that the issue really isn't just about gender, it's about how individuals are marginalised / ignored / shut down, by dominant participants. and over the last year i confess i've missed your wry wit. phillip ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 6:02:46 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change On 26 October 2016 at 21:08, White, Phillip wrote: > [...] > if the majority of the male participants of xmca are actively concerned > along with Mike regarding the gender imbalance in participation, then i > think that there needs to be a recognition that the current chaining > practice is not separate, but part of the ecology of gender imbalance. > Chaining chaining, Phillip? :) > > > phillip > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:28:51 AM > To: Jay Lemke; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Mike, > My testament to the profund*ity of what you have meant to my journey or > quest through living the questions. > > As we talk about generational transformation i hear legacy. I hear your > question of gender imbalance and the mere chaining as the questions for our > time. > The question of gender brings up Franklin?s classroom where the girls know > we can invite one boy to play. Possibly two boys who are carefully chosen > and compatible. However, the girls know that when 3 boys come to play they > form a *clique* of superheros. > Seems a relevant place to start our exploration of why the gender > imbalance. > > The 2nd question of chaining. > You invited Greg to turn back to the historical genesis of the founding > and development of our community. > > Today i will move further back and play with word meaning as a way to > express my testament and gratitude. > I will turn back to Xenophan and the word *dialegein*. > I googled this word to find its meaning and heard a way of expressing my > personal gratitude to you and also honouring your legacy in the back and > forth. > > Here is what caught my ear. > > Xenophan tells us (Memorabilia IV, 5,12) that Socrates connected dialectic > with dialegein in the active voice; he said that the dialektikos or > dialectician is the man who can sort good from bad and that dialectic is > the practice of sorting things into their kinds by taking counsel with each > other. The theory which Xenophan imputes to Socrates would be roughly along > these lines. To dialegesthai is to engage in the sort of conversation that > is courteous, serious, and concerned with the truth. When men are thus > seriously conversing, each trying to learn from the other, they are sorting > things out for themselves; and roughly the only way in which a man can sort > things for himself is to expose his ideas in this way to another?s > criticism. Thus the colloquial meaning of dialegesthai; namely *to converse > as one should* can be seen to be equivalent to the meaning which etymology > might lead us to put upon the *middle voice of dialegein*, namely to sort > for oneself. > > Mike, as i read this word meaning i was turned to the testimony?s now > being expressed as we reflect on generational transformation AND ongoing > legacy AND the living questions you posed. > > I want to honour your *middle voice* as my contribution to the > intertwining. > My identity would be other than it is without your voice of conscience and > conscientiousness that nurtures us in sorting out ways of > well-being-in-the-world-with-each-other. > In short nurturing and cultivating *well-being*. > Thank you > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Jay Lemke > Sent: October 25, 2016 4:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > Just a note to say how moving and beautiful these notes of appreciation for > Mike's commitment to the community (in many senses) have been. Speaking as > one of the old-timers, I think all of us echo every word of the most > beautiful of them, which speak for all of us. > > To the younger generation who wonder how we managed in decades past to talk > with each other and not past each other, despite a very great diversity of > intellectual and cultural backgrounds, I can only say that we were eager to > hear different views, other ideas. We were not looking to build a grand > unified consensus. Each of us had our theory-building projects (or many of > us did) and our research experiences, and what we wanted was to hear what > others were thinking. > > The history of this community has not been like that of specialist > scientific communities that seek to build on each other's work. It has > rather been a true multi-disciplinary community where the greatest gifts we > have given each other have been ideas we had never thought of, or > viewpoints leading to conclusions similar to our own, but starting from > entirely different premises. > > Many of us joined to hear more about the CHAT/Vygotskyan approach. But we > stayed because we also heard so much more. And for me the greatest of > Mike's contributions was that he made everyone feel welcome, helping to > make sure that all these different voices could be heard. To the lasting > benefit of us all. > > JAY. > > > > Jay Lemke > Professor Emeritus > City University of New York > www.jaylemke.com Jay Lemke Online - Home www.jaylemke.com Jay Lemke is Professor Emeritus at the City University of New York. He has also been Professor in the PhD Programs in Science Education, Learning Technologies, and ... > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:00 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Esteemed Mike, > > I add my little voice to the accolades and appreciation expressed by the > > other members of the XMCA chatline. Thank you so much for nourishing the > > dialog, which I have found to be so thought-provoking. It has often > > challenged my simplistic notions of what Vygotsky and many others bring > to > > bear in taking on this complex and complicated world. > > With great respect > > Henry > > > > > > > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Wendy Maples > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > As a frequent lurker, I am very grateful for the chance to see and > think > > about some terrifically interesting topics explored by some terrifically > > interesting people. Thank you for making it happen, and keeping it going. > > > > > > With gratitude and very best wishes, > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > Sent: 25 October 2016 04:41 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, all, > > > > > > thanks for your beautiful e-mail, Mike. It has only been a couple of > > years, but I have witnessed how much effort and dedication you have > > invested and continue investing in creating and sustaining a community > like > > xmca. For a youngster fellow like me, coming for the first time to write > in > > a forum where you know some of the most influential authors in the chat > > literature are there, either actively participating or just lurking from > > time to time, really freezes you before the keyboard. That's what I first > > felt until, the first e-mail went out. Since then, I have always felt > > welcome to write more, and every time have been place in a place from > which > > I could think better and more. And so rather than frozen and stiff, my > > hands, and with them my thinking, have become a little more flexible, > and a > > little more confident too. Thanks xmca for that, for giving me(us) the > > trust to contribute, and in so doing giving me(us) the opportunity to > > become part of a thinking that could have never been just my own. In the > > little time I have spent here, and as anyone can hear in the the words of > > those who have been here for much longer, it has become clear how > important > > your role, Mike, and that of the community of xmca'ers that so much > respect > > you, has been in precisely that: giving us trust to speak, which in a > very > > important sense is giving us freedom. > > > > > > Thanks also for having me in, and for the welcoming words of the > others. > > For a newbie that came in touch with xmca just a couple of years ago, it > > feels pretty scary to be presented as taking some "pastoral" role, but of > > course every one here knows that there is nothing like a flock to be > > pastored (perhaps a herd of cats, as Jay suggested, is best). Mike has > > presented me as taking the role as "mediator," and that is a convenient > > term we came up with together. Yet, I should quote here F. T. Mikhailov > > (thanks Michael for introducing me to this!), for whom it was clear that > > "the soul knows no mediators." Just in the same sense, I do not think I > > will mediate much, if mediating is heard to mean standing between xmca > and > > anyone else (its members). If anything, I will only be able to partake in > > xmca as a member who, as many others already do, cares for and learns > from > > the whole she forms part of. I am very excited about continue growing > with > > xmca, and I hope I will be able to help in moving forward in the very > > honourable tasks that Mike has invited us taking. It seems to me that > xmca > > has through the years grown into all what is needed to continue growing. > > Thanks, > > > > > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Chuck Bazerman > > > Sent: 24 October 2016 23:18 > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Time for a Generational Change > > > > > > Mike, As a mostly lurker with occasional outburst, I want to say how > > > much I have appreciated all you have done to foster interesting > thoughts > > > and to put interesting people in contact. Now I hope you too will have > > > the leisure and pleasure of lurking. > > > Best, > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Thu Oct 27 23:44:55 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 06:44:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> , , , Message-ID: <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> Annalisa, Huw, As someone that has moved from one country (Spain) to another (Norway), then lived a while in another (Australia), and yet a couple more years somewhere else (Canada), having in the way changed kindergarten, school, neighbourhood, hair dresser, office colleagues... I know how closely humour/irony and membership are connected. You really don't need to move across countries to know that, just try to follow any English conversation between professional/training pilots, or a chat between orange pickers in Valencia talking Spanish or Catalan (no matter what country they are from) while lunch during a work day, to realise that you have no clue what they are talking about even though they seem to be talking (and laughing) in a language (English, Spanish, Catalan) you think you know. When I read Huw's post, I had to do a search for almost every word he used, including hogging, humping, and I am still wondering whether "SHUF" might refer to a command in programming that generates "random permutations" (that's what I found online!). I did not know these words in English, and so I had to look for them. Even more embarrassing is the fact that, even though I know every word, I have not yet got what the squirrel story is about, or how it relates to the thread it was posted on... Not that the story is nonsense, but only that I do not (yet) belong to whatever history (chains of reference, whatever you'd like to call it) has brought it up as a sense-full story/joke/turn, etc. The thing is that humour seems to be tightly connected to the sort of abbreviation that Vygotsky described with regard to inner speech. As people get along well together, just as the 3 boys in Larry's post do, there is lesser need for articulation, things can be shortened, they can simply be suggested by a word, a gesture. As Vygotsky notes, "When the thoughts and consciousness of the interlocutors are one, the role of speech in the achievement of flawless understanding is reduced to a minimum." I love humour, and irony (not sarcasm, as Huw notes), and I believe they are vital for a healthy humanity and, again as Huw notes, to a healthy list. Through humour we can address challenges and paradoxes in ways that articulation and explicit talk simply cannot. Yet, if it is right that humour rests upon this competence of abbreviating, of not needing to say the unsaid to make it said, then there always is the risk that someone else won't hear the same and, worst, feel excluded, ridiculed, etc... I think those are occasions for articulating rather than for more abbreviation. I think that such occasions are important because, otherwise, we may loose highly interesting discussions on the historical and genetic account of the problem (what Annalisa and Larry have been asking for, what Huw probably is missing and asking for too) and how such an account may be different and more productive than protocolary statements of the sort of those exposed in the video Annalisa has shared. With all due respect, Alfredo PS: you can see in how much I do articulate how much of an outsider I feel/am, and how much work it takes for us to participate. I hope to be able to abbreviate a bit more at some point... ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 28 October 2016 05:24 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Thank you for the explanation. Why not address Huw? Why me? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David H Kirshner Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than intimidation, itself. David From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 28 01:35:36 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 09:35:36 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Clarifying on the link, it is a cartoon in which a female stick figure is saying "Penises: they are about this big (pretty small). Now can we please, as a culture, move on." The headings are a simple leap: it is necessary to be overt if you want to indicate some form of desired behaviour. I literally do mean that you could put "slow" up in the subject line, indicating that you want to have a slow conversation... and that you don't mind if you have a thread that appears to have fallen with a thud. The peculiarity of it is commensurate with the peculiarity of wanting to guide others in the responses sought. It seems to me to be a plague subject: something v. important, but also something that can be used to accuse others on pretty much any arbitrary basis. No wonder people stay clear. Sorry, again, to offend. I really do have other things I should be doing. Best, Huw On 28 October 2016 at 07:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Annalisa, Huw, > > As someone that has moved from one country (Spain) to another (Norway), > then lived a while in another (Australia), and yet a couple more years > somewhere else (Canada), having in the way changed kindergarten, school, > neighbourhood, hair dresser, office colleagues... I know how closely > humour/irony and membership are connected. You really don't need to move > across countries to know that, just try to follow any English conversation > between professional/training pilots, or a chat between orange pickers in > Valencia talking Spanish or Catalan (no matter what country they are from) > while lunch during a work day, to realise that you have no clue what they > are talking about even though they seem to be talking (and laughing) in a > language (English, Spanish, Catalan) you think you know. > > When I read Huw's post, I had to do a search for almost every word he > used, including hogging, humping, and I am still wondering whether "SHUF" > might refer to a command in programming that generates "random > permutations" (that's what I found online!). I did not know these words in > English, and so I had to look for them. Even more embarrassing is the fact > that, even though I know every word, I have not yet got what the squirrel > story is about, or how it relates to the thread it was posted on... Not > that the story is nonsense, but only that I do not (yet) belong to whatever > history (chains of reference, whatever you'd like to call it) has brought > it up as a sense-full story/joke/turn, etc. > > The thing is that humour seems to be tightly connected to the sort of > abbreviation that Vygotsky described with regard to inner speech. As people > get along well together, just as the 3 boys in Larry's post do, there is > lesser need for articulation, things can be shortened, they can simply be > suggested by a word, a gesture. As Vygotsky notes, "When the thoughts and > consciousness of the interlocutors are one, the role of speech in the > achievement of flawless understanding is reduced to a minimum." I love > humour, and irony (not sarcasm, as Huw notes), and I believe they are vital > for a healthy humanity and, again as Huw notes, to a healthy list. Through > humour we can address challenges and paradoxes in ways that articulation > and explicit talk simply cannot. Yet, if it is right that humour rests upon > this competence of abbreviating, of not needing to say the unsaid to make > it said, then there always is the risk that someone else won't hear the > same and, worst, feel excluded, ridiculed, etc... I think those are > occasions for articulating rather than for more abbreviation. I think that > such occasions are important because, otherwise, we may loose highly > interesting discussions on the historical and genetic account of the > problem (what Annalisa and Larry have been asking for, what Huw probably is > missing and asking for too) and how such an account may be different and > more productive than protocolary statements of the sort of those exposed in > the video Annalisa has shared. > > With all due respect, > Alfredo > > PS: you can see in how much I do articulate how much of an outsider I > feel/am, and how much work it takes for us to participate. I hope to be > able to abbreviate a bit more at some point... > > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: 28 October 2016 05:24 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > Thank you for the explanation. > > > Why not address Huw? Why me? > > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David H Kirshner > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than intimidation, > itself. > David > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Fri Oct 28 06:51:57 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 13:51:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no>, Message-ID: <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> thank you so much for taking the time to articulate, Huw, it is very much appreciated. Of course, humour ceases to be such when explained... But yes, there is definitely an issue and it seems that staying clear when using sexist terms could also be in the subject line. Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: 28 October 2016 10:35 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Clarifying on the link, it is a cartoon in which a female stick figure is saying "Penises: they are about this big (pretty small). Now can we please, as a culture, move on." The headings are a simple leap: it is necessary to be overt if you want to indicate some form of desired behaviour. I literally do mean that you could put "slow" up in the subject line, indicating that you want to have a slow conversation... and that you don't mind if you have a thread that appears to have fallen with a thud. The peculiarity of it is commensurate with the peculiarity of wanting to guide others in the responses sought. It seems to me to be a plague subject: something v. important, but also something that can be used to accuse others on pretty much any arbitrary basis. No wonder people stay clear. Sorry, again, to offend. I really do have other things I should be doing. Best, Huw On 28 October 2016 at 07:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Annalisa, Huw, > > As someone that has moved from one country (Spain) to another (Norway), > then lived a while in another (Australia), and yet a couple more years > somewhere else (Canada), having in the way changed kindergarten, school, > neighbourhood, hair dresser, office colleagues... I know how closely > humour/irony and membership are connected. You really don't need to move > across countries to know that, just try to follow any English conversation > between professional/training pilots, or a chat between orange pickers in > Valencia talking Spanish or Catalan (no matter what country they are from) > while lunch during a work day, to realise that you have no clue what they > are talking about even though they seem to be talking (and laughing) in a > language (English, Spanish, Catalan) you think you know. > > When I read Huw's post, I had to do a search for almost every word he > used, including hogging, humping, and I am still wondering whether "SHUF" > might refer to a command in programming that generates "random > permutations" (that's what I found online!). I did not know these words in > English, and so I had to look for them. Even more embarrassing is the fact > that, even though I know every word, I have not yet got what the squirrel > story is about, or how it relates to the thread it was posted on... Not > that the story is nonsense, but only that I do not (yet) belong to whatever > history (chains of reference, whatever you'd like to call it) has brought > it up as a sense-full story/joke/turn, etc. > > The thing is that humour seems to be tightly connected to the sort of > abbreviation that Vygotsky described with regard to inner speech. As people > get along well together, just as the 3 boys in Larry's post do, there is > lesser need for articulation, things can be shortened, they can simply be > suggested by a word, a gesture. As Vygotsky notes, "When the thoughts and > consciousness of the interlocutors are one, the role of speech in the > achievement of flawless understanding is reduced to a minimum." I love > humour, and irony (not sarcasm, as Huw notes), and I believe they are vital > for a healthy humanity and, again as Huw notes, to a healthy list. Through > humour we can address challenges and paradoxes in ways that articulation > and explicit talk simply cannot. Yet, if it is right that humour rests upon > this competence of abbreviating, of not needing to say the unsaid to make > it said, then there always is the risk that someone else won't hear the > same and, worst, feel excluded, ridiculed, etc... I think those are > occasions for articulating rather than for more abbreviation. I think that > such occasions are important because, otherwise, we may loose highly > interesting discussions on the historical and genetic account of the > problem (what Annalisa and Larry have been asking for, what Huw probably is > missing and asking for too) and how such an account may be different and > more productive than protocolary statements of the sort of those exposed in > the video Annalisa has shared. > > With all due respect, > Alfredo > > PS: you can see in how much I do articulate how much of an outsider I > feel/am, and how much work it takes for us to participate. I hope to be > able to abbreviate a bit more at some point... > > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: 28 October 2016 05:24 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > Thank you for the explanation. > > > Why not address Huw? Why me? > > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of David H Kirshner > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than intimidation, > itself. > David > > From jennamcjenna@gmail.com Fri Oct 28 07:16:05 2016 From: jennamcjenna@gmail.com (Jenna McWilliams) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 08:16:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> I do think the people who choose to "stay clear," as you say, of gender are those who tend to feel that accusations of sexism are, as you say, "arbitrary." They're nearly always not arbitrary, no matter how confusing it may feel to be on the receiving end of such an accusation. Jacob McWilliams jennamcjenna@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 28, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > thank you so much for taking the time to articulate, Huw, it is very much appreciated. Of course, humour ceases to be such when explained... But yes, there is definitely an issue and it seems that staying clear when using sexist terms could also be in the subject line. > > Alfredo > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: 28 October 2016 10:35 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > Clarifying on the link, it is a cartoon in which a female stick figure is > saying "Penises: they are about this big (pretty small). Now can we please, > as a culture, move on." > > The headings are a simple leap: it is necessary to be overt if you want to > indicate some form of desired behaviour. I literally do mean that you > could put "slow" up in the subject line, indicating that you want to have a > slow conversation... and that you don't mind if you have a thread that > appears to have fallen with a thud. The peculiarity of it is commensurate > with the peculiarity of wanting to guide others in the responses sought. > > It seems to me to be a plague subject: something v. important, but also > something that can be used to accuse others on pretty much any arbitrary > basis. No wonder people stay clear. > > Sorry, again, to offend. I really do have other things I should be doing. > > Best, > Huw > >> On 28 October 2016 at 07:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: >> >> Annalisa, Huw, >> >> As someone that has moved from one country (Spain) to another (Norway), >> then lived a while in another (Australia), and yet a couple more years >> somewhere else (Canada), having in the way changed kindergarten, school, >> neighbourhood, hair dresser, office colleagues... I know how closely >> humour/irony and membership are connected. You really don't need to move >> across countries to know that, just try to follow any English conversation >> between professional/training pilots, or a chat between orange pickers in >> Valencia talking Spanish or Catalan (no matter what country they are from) >> while lunch during a work day, to realise that you have no clue what they >> are talking about even though they seem to be talking (and laughing) in a >> language (English, Spanish, Catalan) you think you know. >> >> When I read Huw's post, I had to do a search for almost every word he >> used, including hogging, humping, and I am still wondering whether "SHUF" >> might refer to a command in programming that generates "random >> permutations" (that's what I found online!). I did not know these words in >> English, and so I had to look for them. Even more embarrassing is the fact >> that, even though I know every word, I have not yet got what the squirrel >> story is about, or how it relates to the thread it was posted on... Not >> that the story is nonsense, but only that I do not (yet) belong to whatever >> history (chains of reference, whatever you'd like to call it) has brought >> it up as a sense-full story/joke/turn, etc. >> >> The thing is that humour seems to be tightly connected to the sort of >> abbreviation that Vygotsky described with regard to inner speech. As people >> get along well together, just as the 3 boys in Larry's post do, there is >> lesser need for articulation, things can be shortened, they can simply be >> suggested by a word, a gesture. As Vygotsky notes, "When the thoughts and >> consciousness of the interlocutors are one, the role of speech in the >> achievement of flawless understanding is reduced to a minimum." I love >> humour, and irony (not sarcasm, as Huw notes), and I believe they are vital >> for a healthy humanity and, again as Huw notes, to a healthy list. Through >> humour we can address challenges and paradoxes in ways that articulation >> and explicit talk simply cannot. Yet, if it is right that humour rests upon >> this competence of abbreviating, of not needing to say the unsaid to make >> it said, then there always is the risk that someone else won't hear the >> same and, worst, feel excluded, ridiculed, etc... I think those are >> occasions for articulating rather than for more abbreviation. I think that >> such occasions are important because, otherwise, we may loose highly >> interesting discussions on the historical and genetic account of the >> problem (what Annalisa and Larry have been asking for, what Huw probably is >> missing and asking for too) and how such an account may be different and >> more productive than protocolary statements of the sort of those exposed in >> the video Annalisa has shared. >> >> With all due respect, >> Alfredo >> >> PS: you can see in how much I do articulate how much of an outsider I >> feel/am, and how much work it takes for us to participate. I hope to be >> able to abbreviate a bit more at some point... >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar >> Sent: 28 October 2016 05:24 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse >> >> Thank you for the explanation. >> >> >> Why not address Huw? Why me? >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of David H Kirshner >> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse >> >> Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than intimidation, >> itself. >> David >> >> From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Oct 28 07:39:11 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 07:39:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> , , , <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <58136317.830e620a.83277.06f8@mx.google.com> Alfredo, Your way of entering the unfolding utterances (gestures) through exploring abbreviations and expansions in the back and forth as you carefully crafted your response is exemplary of how you are inviting me to proceed. You were addressing Huw and Annalisa through your own experiences in a way that demonstrated care and concern for *our* unfolding chat community. I felt your presence through your presentation of this crafted address which offered a meaningful turn in our engagement each with the other through the back and forth Thank you Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Alfredo Jornet Gil Sent: October 27, 2016 11:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Annalisa, Huw, As someone that has moved from one country (Spain) to another (Norway), then lived a while in another (Australia), and yet a couple more years somewhere else (Canada), having in the way changed kindergarten, school, neighbourhood, hair dresser, office colleagues... I know how closely humour/irony and membership are connected. You really don't need to move across countries to know that, just try to follow any English conversation between professional/training pilots, or a chat between orange pickers in Valencia talking Spanish or Catalan (no matter what country they are from) while lunch during a work day, to realise that you have no clue what they are talking about even though they seem to be talking (and laughing) in a language (English, Spanish, Catalan) you think you know. When I read Huw's post, I had to do a search for almost every word he used, including hogging, humping, and I am still wondering whether "SHUF" might refer to a command in programming that generates "random permutations" (that's what I found online!). I did not know these words in English, and so I had to look for them. Even more embarrassing is the fact that, even though I know every word, I have not yet got what the squirrel story is about, or how it relates to the thread it was posted on... Not that the story is nonsense, but only that I do not (yet) belong to whatever history (chains of reference, whatever you'd like to call it) has brought it up as a sense-full story/joke/turn, etc. The thing is that humour seems to be tightly connected to the sort of abbreviation that Vygotsky described with regard to inner speech. As people get along well together, just as the 3 boys in Larry's post do, there is lesser need for articulation, things can be shortened, they can simply be suggested by a word, a gesture. As Vygotsky notes, "When the thoughts and consciousness of the interlocutors are one, the role of speech in the achievement of flawless understanding is reduced to a minimum." I love humour, and irony (not sarcasm, as Huw notes), and I believe they are vital for a healthy humanity and, again as Huw notes, to a healthy list. Through humour we can address challenges and paradoxes in ways that articulation and explicit talk simply cannot. Yet, if it is right that humour rests upon this competence of abbreviating, of not needing to say the unsaid to make it said, then there always is the risk that someone else won't hear the same and, worst, feel excluded, ridiculed, etc... I think those are occasions for articulating rather than for more abbreviation. I think that such occasions are important because, otherwise, we may loose highly interesting discussions on the historical and genetic account of the problem (what Annalisa and Larry have been asking for, what Huw probably is missing and asking for too) and how such an account may be different and more productive than protocolary statements of the sort of those exposed in the video Annalisa has shared. With all due respect, Alfredo PS: you can see in how much I do articulate how much of an outsider I feel/am, and how much work it takes for us to participate. I hope to be able to abbreviate a bit more at some point... ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 28 October 2016 05:24 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Thank you for the explanation. Why not address Huw? Why me? ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of David H Kirshner Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than intimidation, itself. David From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 28 08:34:04 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 16:34:04 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 28 October 2016 at 15:16, Jenna McWilliams wrote: > I do think the people who choose to "stay clear," as you say, of gender > are those who tend to feel that accusations of sexism are, as you say, > "arbitrary." They're nearly always not arbitrary, no matter how confusing > it may feel to be on the receiving end of such an accusation. > > By arbitrary I mean the relative scope of what is logically perceived and, worse, when the logic itself is perceived to be part of the power relation. I.e. when a request to heed the logic is itself treated as exercising an abusive power. It is true that logic is powerful -- a hard won skill -- but I think it is madness to politicise it. If you could disentangle the various sources of power, then perhaps it would be a simpler problem. I hope that helps and I'm happy to continue offline. Best, Huw > > > > Jacob McWilliams > jennamcjenna@gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 28, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > > thank you so much for taking the time to articulate, Huw, it is very > much appreciated. Of course, humour ceases to be such when explained... But > yes, there is definitely an issue and it seems that staying clear when > using sexist terms could also be in the subject line. > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > > Sent: 28 October 2016 10:35 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > > > Clarifying on the link, it is a cartoon in which a female stick figure is > > saying "Penises: they are about this big (pretty small). Now can we > please, > > as a culture, move on." > > > > The headings are a simple leap: it is necessary to be overt if you want > to > > indicate some form of desired behaviour. I literally do mean that you > > could put "slow" up in the subject line, indicating that you want to > have a > > slow conversation... and that you don't mind if you have a thread that > > appears to have fallen with a thud. The peculiarity of it is > commensurate > > with the peculiarity of wanting to guide others in the responses sought. > > > > It seems to me to be a plague subject: something v. important, but also > > something that can be used to accuse others on pretty much any arbitrary > > basis. No wonder people stay clear. > > > > Sorry, again, to offend. I really do have other things I should be > doing. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > >> On 28 October 2016 at 07:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> > >> Annalisa, Huw, > >> > >> As someone that has moved from one country (Spain) to another (Norway), > >> then lived a while in another (Australia), and yet a couple more years > >> somewhere else (Canada), having in the way changed kindergarten, school, > >> neighbourhood, hair dresser, office colleagues... I know how closely > >> humour/irony and membership are connected. You really don't need to move > >> across countries to know that, just try to follow any English > conversation > >> between professional/training pilots, or a chat between orange pickers > in > >> Valencia talking Spanish or Catalan (no matter what country they are > from) > >> while lunch during a work day, to realise that you have no clue what > they > >> are talking about even though they seem to be talking (and laughing) in > a > >> language (English, Spanish, Catalan) you think you know. > >> > >> When I read Huw's post, I had to do a search for almost every word he > >> used, including hogging, humping, and I am still wondering whether > "SHUF" > >> might refer to a command in programming that generates "random > >> permutations" (that's what I found online!). I did not know these > words in > >> English, and so I had to look for them. Even more embarrassing is the > fact > >> that, even though I know every word, I have not yet got what the > squirrel > >> story is about, or how it relates to the thread it was posted on... Not > >> that the story is nonsense, but only that I do not (yet) belong to > whatever > >> history (chains of reference, whatever you'd like to call it) has > brought > >> it up as a sense-full story/joke/turn, etc. > >> > >> The thing is that humour seems to be tightly connected to the sort of > >> abbreviation that Vygotsky described with regard to inner speech. As > people > >> get along well together, just as the 3 boys in Larry's post do, there is > >> lesser need for articulation, things can be shortened, they can simply > be > >> suggested by a word, a gesture. As Vygotsky notes, "When the thoughts > and > >> consciousness of the interlocutors are one, the role of speech in the > >> achievement of flawless understanding is reduced to a minimum." I love > >> humour, and irony (not sarcasm, as Huw notes), and I believe they are > vital > >> for a healthy humanity and, again as Huw notes, to a healthy list. > Through > >> humour we can address challenges and paradoxes in ways that articulation > >> and explicit talk simply cannot. Yet, if it is right that humour rests > upon > >> this competence of abbreviating, of not needing to say the unsaid to > make > >> it said, then there always is the risk that someone else won't hear the > >> same and, worst, feel excluded, ridiculed, etc... I think those are > >> occasions for articulating rather than for more abbreviation. I think > that > >> such occasions are important because, otherwise, we may loose highly > >> interesting discussions on the historical and genetic account of the > >> problem (what Annalisa and Larry have been asking for, what Huw > probably is > >> missing and asking for too) and how such an account may be different and > >> more productive than protocolary statements of the sort of those > exposed in > >> the video Annalisa has shared. > >> > >> With all due respect, > >> Alfredo > >> > >> PS: you can see in how much I do articulate how much of an outsider I > >> feel/am, and how much work it takes for us to participate. I hope to be > >> able to abbreviate a bit more at some point... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > >> Sent: 28 October 2016 05:24 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > >> > >> Thank you for the explanation. > >> > >> > >> Why not address Huw? Why me? > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of David H Kirshner > >> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > >> > >> Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than intimidation, > >> itself. > >> David > >> > >> > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Oct 28 09:38:40 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 16:38:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> , , , , <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: Dear Alfredo, Again thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. You are one of us with an invested interest in being welcoming to others who have not normally been welcomed or felt left out. There could be a vast deconstruction of the post by Huw that reveals the very kind of sexism in which is being addressed in the Ally video by the founders of the Ada Initiative. But I'm not going to do that here, because delving into that would be full of triggers and it would likely fireball into a lot of flame wars, and that is precisely what I had referred to originally in previous emails. What surprised me is how easily it slipped into the very kind of discourse that the Ada Initiative is working against, and so given that Huw has a background working in that environment of tech, he has in his attempt at humor provided us evidence of the very kind of pornographic insertions women in tech are loathe to contend with. It shows what we have to deal with on a daily basis in a professional environment. And that's as far as I will go about the XKCD comic, which is to me rife with sarcasm, irony, and inside-tech-speak. In my attempt to use humor, and in support of what Jenna says, if it quacks like a duck it's likely a duck. And rather than blame/castigate/avoid a person for making sexist accusations, perhaps it might be a better move for the accused to ask "What have I done that feels sexist to you?" It is victim-blaming to tar and feather a an accuser of sexism for wanting to address the emotional impact of harm that the person feels or witnesses, or, in the case of an ally, who does not want to encourage a toxic atmosphere that harms others. Instead of attacking a person, perhaps it's worthwhile to consider the behavior of the person, behavior that makes people unwelcome and work to change the behavior. It isn't arbitrary rule-making. If anything is arbitrary, it is the privileged who make rules up arbitrarily to maintain control over others, or in a desperate move to maintain the status quo. As far as my post about squirrels... I apologize if it was too Zen for people. I meant it to be poetic, as my gift to Mike and the fertile ecology he has fostered, or should I say forested. It was intended to be read in the same way as a haiku, but in prose. Right now I am on a farm, and there are squirrels everywhere gathering nuts. Being that it is October, harvest time, and I saw the similarity between that and XMCA members and what they receive from the list. I am hoping, in the way artwork communicates, it might reveal to Mike how I feel about him and his contributions. It was my way to say thank you. I regret very much it had to be sullied by being juxtaposed with Penises. regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Oct 28 10:07:26 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 10:07:26 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: I very much appreciate the messages following from Alfredo's amazing deconstruction of his attempt to make sense of (understand the meaning of?) Huw's post. I was very confused by several of the reference, never mind linking up those references with the context of the discussion. (I did not at all get the reference to the squirrels I am afraid, and did not pay attention to the details of Huw's note so now I need to go back and re-read to appreciate intended meaning). mike On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Dear Alfredo, > > Again thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. You are one of us with > an invested interest in being welcoming to others who have not normally > been welcomed or felt left out. > > There could be a vast deconstruction of the post by Huw that reveals the > very kind of sexism in which is being addressed in the Ally video by the > founders of the Ada Initiative. But I'm not going to do that here, because > delving into that would be full of triggers and it would likely fireball > into a lot of flame wars, and that is precisely what I had referred to > originally in previous emails. > > What surprised me is how easily it slipped into the very kind of discourse > that the Ada Initiative is working against, and so given that Huw has a > background working in that environment of tech, he has in his attempt at > humor provided us evidence of the very kind of pornographic insertions > women in tech are loathe to contend with. It shows what we have to deal > with on a daily basis in a professional environment. And that's as far as I > will go about the XKCD comic, which is to me rife with sarcasm, irony, and > inside-tech-speak. > > In my attempt to use humor, and in support of what Jenna says, if it > quacks like a duck it's likely a duck. And rather than > blame/castigate/avoid a person for making sexist accusations, perhaps it > might be a better move for the accused to ask "What have I done that feels > sexist to you?" It is victim-blaming to tar and feather a an accuser of > sexism for wanting to address the emotional impact of harm that the person > feels or witnesses, or, in the case of an ally, who does not want to > encourage a toxic atmosphere that harms others. > > Instead of attacking a person, perhaps it's worthwhile to consider the > behavior of the person, behavior that makes people unwelcome and work to > change the behavior. It isn't arbitrary rule-making. If anything is > arbitrary, it is the privileged who make rules up arbitrarily to maintain > control over others, or in a desperate move to maintain the status quo. > > As far as my post about squirrels... I apologize if it was too Zen for > people. I meant it to be poetic, as my gift to Mike and the fertile ecology > he has fostered, or should I say forested. It was intended to be read in > the same way as a haiku, but in prose. Right now I am on a farm, and there > are squirrels everywhere gathering nuts. Being that it is October, harvest > time, and I saw the similarity between that and XMCA members and what they > receive from the list. I am hoping, in the way artwork communicates, it > might reveal to Mike how I feel about him and his contributions. It was my > way to say thank you. I regret very much it had to be sullied by being > juxtaposed with Penises. > > regards, > > Annalisa > > > From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Fri Oct 28 10:39:34 2016 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 17:39:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> Message-ID: I too am new to the list serve. In fact I think Jacob introduced me. I have since shared XMCA with scholars everywhere, but I often get the feedback that the practices do feel engendered. Basically I get comments that the academic discourse is of the -oneupmanship (deliberately engendered) and argumentation that has long favored the dominant narrative. Basically privledged white males excel at this kind of discourse sense they helped to build the system. This is not something unique to the listserv. It is something as a society we need to address. Can technology help? Maybe> I think listserves stink because they work so well. They are truly one of the only federated systems on the web. Their success leads to an amplification and mirroring of discourse practices that exist in both digital and meat spaces. I do wonder if we turned to open source tools like Discourse (an email enabled discussion board) where features could help create a more inclusive environment. Specifically there are moderation tools, we can create labels, archive discussions, have private chat features....and actually find previous conversations. Just switching platforms will not address the problem. I am not saying technology isn't value laden but we as actors must be conscience of community we create and curate . On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 11:37 AM Huw Lloyd wrote: On 28 October 2016 at 15:16, Jenna McWilliams wrote: > I do think the people who choose to "stay clear," as you say, of gender > are those who tend to feel that accusations of sexism are, as you say, > "arbitrary." They're nearly always not arbitrary, no matter how confusing > it may feel to be on the receiving end of such an accusation. > > By arbitrary I mean the relative scope of what is logically perceived and, worse, when the logic itself is perceived to be part of the power relation. I.e. when a request to heed the logic is itself treated as exercising an abusive power. It is true that logic is powerful -- a hard won skill -- but I think it is madness to politicise it. If you could disentangle the various sources of power, then perhaps it would be a simpler problem. I hope that helps and I'm happy to continue offline. Best, Huw > > > > Jacob McWilliams > jennamcjenna@gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 28, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > > > > thank you so much for taking the time to articulate, Huw, it is very > much appreciated. Of course, humour ceases to be such when explained... But > yes, there is definitely an issue and it seems that staying clear when > using sexist terms could also be in the subject line. > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > > Sent: 28 October 2016 10:35 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > > > Clarifying on the link, it is a cartoon in which a female stick figure is > > saying "Penises: they are about this big (pretty small). Now can we > please, > > as a culture, move on." > > > > The headings are a simple leap: it is necessary to be overt if you want > to > > indicate some form of desired behaviour. I literally do mean that you > > could put "slow" up in the subject line, indicating that you want to > have a > > slow conversation... and that you don't mind if you have a thread that > > appears to have fallen with a thud. The peculiarity of it is > commensurate > > with the peculiarity of wanting to guide others in the responses sought. > > > > It seems to me to be a plague subject: something v. important, but also > > something that can be used to accuse others on pretty much any arbitrary > > basis. No wonder people stay clear. > > > > Sorry, again, to offend. I really do have other things I should be > doing. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > >> On 28 October 2016 at 07:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil > wrote: > >> > >> Annalisa, Huw, > >> > >> As someone that has moved from one country (Spain) to another (Norway), > >> then lived a while in another (Australia), and yet a couple more years > >> somewhere else (Canada), having in the way changed kindergarten, school, > >> neighbourhood, hair dresser, office colleagues... I know how closely > >> humour/irony and membership are connected. You really don't need to move > >> across countries to know that, just try to follow any English > conversation > >> between professional/training pilots, or a chat between orange pickers > in > >> Valencia talking Spanish or Catalan (no matter what country they are > from) > >> while lunch during a work day, to realise that you have no clue what > they > >> are talking about even though they seem to be talking (and laughing) in > a > >> language (English, Spanish, Catalan) you think you know. > >> > >> When I read Huw's post, I had to do a search for almost every word he > >> used, including hogging, humping, and I am still wondering whether > "SHUF" > >> might refer to a command in programming that generates "random > >> permutations" (that's what I found online!). I did not know these > words in > >> English, and so I had to look for them. Even more embarrassing is the > fact > >> that, even though I know every word, I have not yet got what the > squirrel > >> story is about, or how it relates to the thread it was posted on... Not > >> that the story is nonsense, but only that I do not (yet) belong to > whatever > >> history (chains of reference, whatever you'd like to call it) has > brought > >> it up as a sense-full story/joke/turn, etc. > >> > >> The thing is that humour seems to be tightly connected to the sort of > >> abbreviation that Vygotsky described with regard to inner speech. As > people > >> get along well together, just as the 3 boys in Larry's post do, there is > >> lesser need for articulation, things can be shortened, they can simply > be > >> suggested by a word, a gesture. As Vygotsky notes, "When the thoughts > and > >> consciousness of the interlocutors are one, the role of speech in the > >> achievement of flawless understanding is reduced to a minimum." I love > >> humour, and irony (not sarcasm, as Huw notes), and I believe they are > vital > >> for a healthy humanity and, again as Huw notes, to a healthy list. > Through > >> humour we can address challenges and paradoxes in ways that articulation > >> and explicit talk simply cannot. Yet, if it is right that humour rests > upon > >> this competence of abbreviating, of not needing to say the unsaid to > make > >> it said, then there always is the risk that someone else won't hear the > >> same and, worst, feel excluded, ridiculed, etc... I think those are > >> occasions for articulating rather than for more abbreviation. I think > that > >> such occasions are important because, otherwise, we may loose highly > >> interesting discussions on the historical and genetic account of the > >> problem (what Annalisa and Larry have been asking for, what Huw > probably is > >> missing and asking for too) and how such an account may be different and > >> more productive than protocolary statements of the sort of those > exposed in > >> the video Annalisa has shared. > >> > >> With all due respect, > >> Alfredo > >> > >> PS: you can see in how much I do articulate how much of an outsider I > >> feel/am, and how much work it takes for us to participate. I hope to be > >> able to abbreviate a bit more at some point... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > >> Sent: 28 October 2016 05:24 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > >> > >> Thank you for the explanation. > >> > >> > >> Why not address Huw? Why me? > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> on behalf of David H Kirshner > >> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > >> > >> Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than intimidation, > >> itself. > >> David > >> > >> > > From pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu Fri Oct 28 10:43:10 2016 From: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu (Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 13:43:10 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and absolutely necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say insensitivity) to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could use your collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to locate any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers to the *first* and *second* signal systems. My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system as the biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes as described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is particular to human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis that, in ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes *domesticated* by, and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, the S-R form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a person performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this poor, stumbling colleague in the right direction, I would be most grateful. Warm wishes to all, Peter p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks to Mike for creating this list in the first place, and with it the opportunity for Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas in an open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to raise my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation in this forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its participants as is humanly possible. -- Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. Director, Office of Institutional Research Fordham University Thebaud Hall-202 Bronx, NY 10458 Phone: (718) 817-2243 Fax: (718) 817-3817 email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Oct 28 10:56:09 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 10:56:09 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come up with several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his little book with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on "Speech development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and Maltzman, *Handbook of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the late 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were special "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the use of first and second signal system by Pavlov allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. mike On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and absolutely > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say insensitivity) > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could use your > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to locate > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers to the > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system as the > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes as > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is particular to > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis that, in > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes *domesticated* by, > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, the S-R > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a person > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this poor, > stumbling colleague > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > Warm wishes to all, > Peter > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks to Mike > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the opportunity for > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas in an > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to raise > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation in this > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its participants as is > humanly possible. > > -- > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > Director, > Office of Institutional Research > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > Fordham University > Thebaud Hall-202 > Bronx, NY 10458 > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > From nancy.mack@wright.edu Fri Oct 28 11:58:23 2016 From: nancy.mack@wright.edu (Mack, Nancy J.) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 18:58:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: unsubscribe Dr. Nancy Mack Professor of English ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 1:43 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems Dear colleagues, I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and absolutely necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say insensitivity) to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could use your collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to locate any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers to the *first* and *second* signal systems. My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system as the biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes as described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is particular to human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis that, in ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes *domesticated* by, and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, the S-R form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a person performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this poor, stumbling colleague in the right direction, I would be most grateful. Warm wishes to all, Peter p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks to Mike for creating this list in the first place, and with it the opportunity for Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas in an open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to raise my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation in this forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its participants as is humanly possible. -- Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. Director, Office of Institutional Research Fordham University Thebaud Hall-202 Bronx, NY 10458 Phone: (718) 817-2243 Fax: (718) 817-3817 email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Oct 28 12:13:51 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 12:13:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dr. Nancy Mack and like minded others! If you are already a subscriber and wish to unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Bruce Jones from the subscribed address. The web page is being modified to make this information more salient. *mike* On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mack, Nancy J. wrote: > unsubscribe > > > Dr. Nancy Mack > Professor of English > > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 1:43 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* > and *Second* Signal Systems > > Dear colleagues, > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and absolutely > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say insensitivity) > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could use your > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to locate > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers to the > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system as the > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes as > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is particular to > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis that, in > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes *domesticated* by, > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, the S-R > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a person > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this poor, > stumbling colleague > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > Warm wishes to all, > Peter > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks to Mike > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the opportunity for > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas in an > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to raise > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation in this > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its participants as is > humanly possible. > > -- > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > Director, > Office of Institutional Research > 3A__www.fordham.edu_academics_office-5Fof-5Fthe-5Fprovos_ > office-5Fof-5Finstitutio_index.asp&d=CwIBaQ&c=3buyMx9JlH1z22L_G5pM28wz_ > Ru6WjhVHwo-vpeS0Gk&r=VzHmEvLmXHfhnum90TWZynvJysQDjyaUfncm3-0C7EQ&m= > bwn1PRvkzbvhlKdEW6nVRNhsScN_Iv3deqwxlouvHDU&s= > DECK5fQWd1sGtseS6nrtI2ZWXhemF35hLyupHYEGJGU&e= > > Fordham University > Thebaud Hall-202 > Bronx, NY 10458 > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Oct 28 12:33:22 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 19:33:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Hi Greg, As a grad student when I learned about the XMCA list, it felt that it was surrounded with an aura of hushed whispers in a great hall. When I perused the list posts I felt grandly intimidated and because my understanding of Vygotsky's work was still green, and likely still is, and there was an entire wing of theoretical work by Leontiev of which I wasn't familiar, I could not bring myself to post a single message. It wasn't until I ended back in San Diego and missing academic discourse that I decided to give XMCA another chance. Of course if you look back in the archives, I am embarrassed at the kind of belly-flops I made with the generous help of Andy Blundon. I say that in a mischievous tone, and it is in no way intended as derogatory to him. It was an experience, and I learned. At the time, I was starved to learn more (and still am) and so my steam engine had much coal at the time. I was working hard to reply, not to every post but to the ones that engaged me. It was so much I was warned off list to slow down. My posts were too long and involved. I suppose I was just hungry for knowledge and the company of eagles, to learn from them. And what lurkers don't feel the same? I accept my novice status, which I feel I still have, and I'm not embarrassed about it. Also, I don't feel embarrassed about my ignorance about topics here. What I pride myself is my curiosity and my intention to learn and to share when I can. I feel this way in particular here of all places because it is a place in which the theory backs such kind of social discourse. What has bothered me over time since I began to post is the sad irony that the list does not always practice The Theory and slips into a more hierarchical realm of the unspoken rules that shall not be named, and who ever might name any emperors with no clothes is given the scarlett letter. Or just ignored. Despite those misgivings, I do think there are Golden Moments. There was a few months back a thread having to do with Collaboration that was magical. That thread was exactly what I expect this list to be. It felt truly democratic and safe. Even Playful. So it is very possible for it to happen here. As far as new tech platforms, such an enterprise would be a massive change. I suppose you would have to help us understand the whys and wherefores about that platform. Most of all, there is such a lack of time for people to consider this, and given the history of considering other tools, it would involve careful explanation why such a thing would be of value. My feeling is that like a village, there are elders who help to keep the peace, but elders have lives of their own and don't want to be policing the behavior of a listserv. Unfortunately all it takes is a few bad actors to create an unwelcome setting. I am not aware whether there are any formal conventions set up for the list about expected and acceptable conduct. For example, there was a javascript meet up I attended last year, mostly for the reason of its Code of Conduct: http://sandiegojs.org/code-of-conduct.html which had been adopted from its original version at the Geek Feminism blog here: https://geekfeminism.org/about/code-of-conduct/ I was encouraged to see this adoption. The reality was however that the San Diego Javscript meetup was 95% men, but at least they are Doing The Right Thing, if only because the men there didn't want that kind of atmosphere, even if mostly men are attending. I think that is a start, anyway; they still have a long ways to go to make Others welcome. As I re-read the geek feminism code of conduct, what saddens me is how bad behavior must be s-p-e-l-l-e-d out. The basic instincts of kindness and respect should just be obvious. Apparently they aren't. That's why I offer my unvarnished opinion that the kind of society we want to have here depends upon the labor of everyone and not A Few of Us, if we want to avoid the hierarchical structure of alphas and betas that tends to manifest on listservs. Please forgive any mis-takes I may have made in my post(s) as I know of myself my tendency to belly flop, but I would hope to readers of my post that my intentions and goals are clear. But for where it isn't clear, I simply make a claim for a positive space where more voices can speak, especially those of the younger generations, and participate without fear. Particularly millenials. It may be a blanket statement but I find they are fairly evolved in their social awareness of gender differences and there is a lot we might learn from them. Kind regards, Annalisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 28 12:52:52 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 20:52:52 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would like to say again I am sorry for the rude email, its been a day for squirming. What I would like to do, is take something from this. The technology part to the offensive email was the reason I chipped in. Generally I like to brief, both to get to the point but also not to hog the space. Here are some issues, I am currently thinking about: i) Lets assume for the sake of it that a 'discourse of logic' is one of many equally applicable approaches. I have read interesting articles about the treatment of science as a specialisation of writing, so it is not entirely foreign to me. ii) This raises (to me) big questions concerning alternative viable structures for many subjects (-ologies) and the fabric of technology. But even were we to try to put this aside and to treat discourses as equal, if it turns out that actually one discourse is inherently more powerful than another in a certain context, then we again have a problem of 'pandering' to the weaker discourse and effectively reducing opportunities for taking up something that is inherently more useful in that context. iii) A significant proportion of the discourse pertaining to technical understandings of developmental processes is heavily logical. iv) Let us suppose that you can have a convention along the lines of "when in Rome...", meaning that each thread has a dominant discourse, how does that pan out? v) Supposing one said "logic is an offensive weapon, and should only be used in certain contexts", well are we not denying this skill to others by hiding it away? Back to the technology. I don't know if its clear, but the reasoning I was giving earlier about "a social policy" being the most important is, I think, the same thing Greg is alluding to. Best, Huw On 28 October 2016 at 18:39, Greg Mcverry wrote: > I too am new to the list serve. In fact I think Jacob introduced me. I have > since shared XMCA with scholars everywhere, but I often get the feedback > that the practices do feel engendered. > > Basically I get comments that the academic discourse is of the > -oneupmanship (deliberately engendered) and argumentation that has long > favored the dominant narrative. Basically privledged white males excel at > this kind of discourse sense they helped to build the system. > > This is not something unique to the listserv. It is something as a society > we need to address. > > Can technology help? Maybe> I think listserves stink because they work so > well. They are truly one of the only federated systems on the web. > > Their success leads to an amplification and mirroring of discourse > practices that exist in both digital and meat spaces. > > I do wonder if we turned to open source tools like Discourse (an email > enabled discussion board) where features could help create a more inclusive > environment. Specifically there are moderation tools, we can create labels, > archive discussions, have private chat features....and actually find > previous conversations. > > Just switching platforms will not address the problem. > > I am not saying technology isn't value laden but we as actors must be > conscience of community we create and curate . > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 11:37 AM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > On 28 October 2016 at 15:16, Jenna McWilliams > wrote: > > > I do think the people who choose to "stay clear," as you say, of gender > > are those who tend to feel that accusations of sexism are, as you say, > > "arbitrary." They're nearly always not arbitrary, no matter how confusing > > it may feel to be on the receiving end of such an accusation. > > > > > By arbitrary I mean the relative scope of what is logically perceived and, > worse, when the logic itself is perceived to be part of the power > relation. I.e. when a request to heed the logic is itself treated as > exercising an abusive power. It is true that logic is powerful -- a hard > won skill -- but I think it is madness to politicise it. If you could > disentangle the various sources of power, then perhaps it would be a > simpler problem. > > I hope that helps and I'm happy to continue offline. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > Jacob McWilliams > > jennamcjenna@gmail.com > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Oct 28, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > > > > > thank you so much for taking the time to articulate, Huw, it is very > > much appreciated. Of course, humour ceases to be such when explained... > But > > yes, there is definitely an issue and it seems that staying clear when > > using sexist terms could also be in the subject line. > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > > > Sent: 28 October 2016 10:35 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > > > > > Clarifying on the link, it is a cartoon in which a female stick figure > is > > > saying "Penises: they are about this big (pretty small). Now can we > > please, > > > as a culture, move on." > > > > > > The headings are a simple leap: it is necessary to be overt if you want > > to > > > indicate some form of desired behaviour. I literally do mean that you > > > could put "slow" up in the subject line, indicating that you want to > > have a > > > slow conversation... and that you don't mind if you have a thread that > > > appears to have fallen with a thud. The peculiarity of it is > > commensurate > > > with the peculiarity of wanting to guide others in the responses > sought. > > > > > > It seems to me to be a plague subject: something v. important, but also > > > something that can be used to accuse others on pretty much any > arbitrary > > > basis. No wonder people stay clear. > > > > > > Sorry, again, to offend. I really do have other things I should be > > doing. > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > >> On 28 October 2016 at 07:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Annalisa, Huw, > > >> > > >> As someone that has moved from one country (Spain) to another > (Norway), > > >> then lived a while in another (Australia), and yet a couple more years > > >> somewhere else (Canada), having in the way changed kindergarten, > school, > > >> neighbourhood, hair dresser, office colleagues... I know how closely > > >> humour/irony and membership are connected. You really don't need to > move > > >> across countries to know that, just try to follow any English > > conversation > > >> between professional/training pilots, or a chat between orange pickers > > in > > >> Valencia talking Spanish or Catalan (no matter what country they are > > from) > > >> while lunch during a work day, to realise that you have no clue what > > they > > >> are talking about even though they seem to be talking (and laughing) > in > > a > > >> language (English, Spanish, Catalan) you think you know. > > >> > > >> When I read Huw's post, I had to do a search for almost every word he > > >> used, including hogging, humping, and I am still wondering whether > > "SHUF" > > >> might refer to a command in programming that generates "random > > >> permutations" (that's what I found online!). I did not know these > > words in > > >> English, and so I had to look for them. Even more embarrassing is the > > fact > > >> that, even though I know every word, I have not yet got what the > > squirrel > > >> story is about, or how it relates to the thread it was posted on... > Not > > >> that the story is nonsense, but only that I do not (yet) belong to > > whatever > > >> history (chains of reference, whatever you'd like to call it) has > > brought > > >> it up as a sense-full story/joke/turn, etc. > > >> > > >> The thing is that humour seems to be tightly connected to the sort of > > >> abbreviation that Vygotsky described with regard to inner speech. As > > people > > >> get along well together, just as the 3 boys in Larry's post do, there > is > > >> lesser need for articulation, things can be shortened, they can simply > > be > > >> suggested by a word, a gesture. As Vygotsky notes, "When the thoughts > > and > > >> consciousness of the interlocutors are one, the role of speech in the > > >> achievement of flawless understanding is reduced to a minimum." I love > > >> humour, and irony (not sarcasm, as Huw notes), and I believe they are > > vital > > >> for a healthy humanity and, again as Huw notes, to a healthy list. > > Through > > >> humour we can address challenges and paradoxes in ways that > articulation > > >> and explicit talk simply cannot. Yet, if it is right that humour rests > > upon > > >> this competence of abbreviating, of not needing to say the unsaid to > > make > > >> it said, then there always is the risk that someone else won't hear > the > > >> same and, worst, feel excluded, ridiculed, etc... I think those are > > >> occasions for articulating rather than for more abbreviation. I think > > that > > >> such occasions are important because, otherwise, we may loose highly > > >> interesting discussions on the historical and genetic account of the > > >> problem (what Annalisa and Larry have been asking for, what Huw > > probably is > > >> missing and asking for too) and how such an account may be different > and > > >> more productive than protocolary statements of the sort of those > > exposed in > > >> the video Annalisa has shared. > > >> > > >> With all due respect, > > >> Alfredo > > >> > > >> PS: you can see in how much I do articulate how much of an outsider I > > >> feel/am, and how much work it takes for us to participate. I hope to > be > > >> able to abbreviate a bit more at some point... > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ________________________________________ > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu> > > >> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > > >> Sent: 28 October 2016 05:24 > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > >> > > >> Thank you for the explanation. > > >> > > >> > > >> Why not address Huw? Why me? > > >> > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu> > > >> on behalf of David H Kirshner > > >> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > >> > > >> Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than intimidation, > > >> itself. > > >> David > > >> > > >> > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Oct 28 13:04:08 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 20:04:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Huw, It isn't about logic. It is about not being a jerk. Many people can be logical *and* kind. In other words, I do not accept your implicit equation that being logical means being dominating, cruel, and/or insensitive. Even Mr. Spock was not a mechanical automaton, but then he was half human; you are 100% human. Unless... you are just a bot that has passed the Turing test. In that case, bravo. How is that for being brief, without bullet points. Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 1:52 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse I would like to say again I am sorry for the rude email, its been a day for squirming. What I would like to do, is take something from this. The technology part to the offensive email was the reason I chipped in. Generally I like to brief, both to get to the point but also not to hog the space. Here are some issues, I am currently thinking about: i) Lets assume for the sake of it that a 'discourse of logic' is one of many equally applicable approaches. I have read interesting articles about the treatment of science as a specialisation of writing, so it is not entirely foreign to me. ii) This raises (to me) big questions concerning alternative viable structures for many subjects (-ologies) and the fabric of technology. But even were we to try to put this aside and to treat discourses as equal, if it turns out that actually one discourse is inherently more powerful than another in a certain context, then we again have a problem of 'pandering' to the weaker discourse and effectively reducing opportunities for taking up something that is inherently more useful in that context. iii) A significant proportion of the discourse pertaining to technical understandings of developmental processes is heavily logical. iv) Let us suppose that you can have a convention along the lines of "when in Rome...", meaning that each thread has a dominant discourse, how does that pan out? v) Supposing one said "logic is an offensive weapon, and should only be used in certain contexts", well are we not denying this skill to others by hiding it away? Back to the technology. I don't know if its clear, but the reasoning I was giving earlier about "a social policy" being the most important is, I think, the same thing Greg is alluding to. Best, Huw On 28 October 2016 at 18:39, Greg Mcverry wrote: > I too am new to the list serve. In fact I think Jacob introduced me. I have > since shared XMCA with scholars everywhere, but I often get the feedback > that the practices do feel engendered. > > Basically I get comments that the academic discourse is of the > -oneupmanship (deliberately engendered) and argumentation that has long > favored the dominant narrative. Basically privledged white males excel at > this kind of discourse sense they helped to build the system. > > This is not something unique to the listserv. It is something as a society > we need to address. > > Can technology help? Maybe> I think listserves stink because they work so > well. They are truly one of the only federated systems on the web. > > Their success leads to an amplification and mirroring of discourse > practices that exist in both digital and meat spaces. > > I do wonder if we turned to open source tools like Discourse (an email > enabled discussion board) where features could help create a more inclusive > environment. Specifically there are moderation tools, we can create labels, > archive discussions, have private chat features....and actually find > previous conversations. > > Just switching platforms will not address the problem. > > I am not saying technology isn't value laden but we as actors must be > conscience of community we create and curate . > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 11:37 AM Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > On 28 October 2016 at 15:16, Jenna McWilliams > wrote: > > > I do think the people who choose to "stay clear," as you say, of gender > > are those who tend to feel that accusations of sexism are, as you say, > > "arbitrary." They're nearly always not arbitrary, no matter how confusing > > it may feel to be on the receiving end of such an accusation. > > > > > By arbitrary I mean the relative scope of what is logically perceived and, > worse, when the logic itself is perceived to be part of the power > relation. I.e. when a request to heed the logic is itself treated as > exercising an abusive power. It is true that logic is powerful -- a hard > won skill -- but I think it is madness to politicise it. If you could > disentangle the various sources of power, then perhaps it would be a > simpler problem. > > I hope that helps and I'm happy to continue offline. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > Jacob McWilliams > > jennamcjenna@gmail.com > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Oct 28, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > > > > > thank you so much for taking the time to articulate, Huw, it is very > > much appreciated. Of course, humour ceases to be such when explained... > But > > yes, there is definitely an issue and it seems that staying clear when > > using sexist terms could also be in the subject line. > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > > > Sent: 28 October 2016 10:35 > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > > > > > Clarifying on the link, it is a cartoon in which a female stick figure > is > > > saying "Penises: they are about this big (pretty small). Now can we > > please, > > > as a culture, move on." > > > > > > The headings are a simple leap: it is necessary to be overt if you want > > to > > > indicate some form of desired behaviour. I literally do mean that you > > > could put "slow" up in the subject line, indicating that you want to > > have a > > > slow conversation... and that you don't mind if you have a thread that > > > appears to have fallen with a thud. The peculiarity of it is > > commensurate > > > with the peculiarity of wanting to guide others in the responses > sought. > > > > > > It seems to me to be a plague subject: something v. important, but also > > > something that can be used to accuse others on pretty much any > arbitrary > > > basis. No wonder people stay clear. > > > > > > Sorry, again, to offend. I really do have other things I should be > > doing. > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > >> On 28 October 2016 at 07:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Annalisa, Huw, > > >> > > >> As someone that has moved from one country (Spain) to another > (Norway), > > >> then lived a while in another (Australia), and yet a couple more years > > >> somewhere else (Canada), having in the way changed kindergarten, > school, > > >> neighbourhood, hair dresser, office colleagues... I know how closely > > >> humour/irony and membership are connected. You really don't need to > move > > >> across countries to know that, just try to follow any English > > conversation > > >> between professional/training pilots, or a chat between orange pickers > > in > > >> Valencia talking Spanish or Catalan (no matter what country they are > > from) > > >> while lunch during a work day, to realise that you have no clue what > > they > > >> are talking about even though they seem to be talking (and laughing) > in > > a > > >> language (English, Spanish, Catalan) you think you know. > > >> > > >> When I read Huw's post, I had to do a search for almost every word he > > >> used, including hogging, humping, and I am still wondering whether > > "SHUF" > > >> might refer to a command in programming that generates "random > > >> permutations" (that's what I found online!). I did not know these > > words in > > >> English, and so I had to look for them. Even more embarrassing is the > > fact > > >> that, even though I know every word, I have not yet got what the > > squirrel > > >> story is about, or how it relates to the thread it was posted on... > Not > > >> that the story is nonsense, but only that I do not (yet) belong to > > whatever > > >> history (chains of reference, whatever you'd like to call it) has > > brought > > >> it up as a sense-full story/joke/turn, etc. > > >> > > >> The thing is that humour seems to be tightly connected to the sort of > > >> abbreviation that Vygotsky described with regard to inner speech. As > > people > > >> get along well together, just as the 3 boys in Larry's post do, there > is > > >> lesser need for articulation, things can be shortened, they can simply > > be > > >> suggested by a word, a gesture. As Vygotsky notes, "When the thoughts > > and > > >> consciousness of the interlocutors are one, the role of speech in the > > >> achievement of flawless understanding is reduced to a minimum." I love > > >> humour, and irony (not sarcasm, as Huw notes), and I believe they are > > vital > > >> for a healthy humanity and, again as Huw notes, to a healthy list. > > Through > > >> humour we can address challenges and paradoxes in ways that > articulation > > >> and explicit talk simply cannot. Yet, if it is right that humour rests > > upon > > >> this competence of abbreviating, of not needing to say the unsaid to > > make > > >> it said, then there always is the risk that someone else won't hear > the > > >> same and, worst, feel excluded, ridiculed, etc... I think those are > > >> occasions for articulating rather than for more abbreviation. I think > > that > > >> such occasions are important because, otherwise, we may loose highly > > >> interesting discussions on the historical and genetic account of the > > >> problem (what Annalisa and Larry have been asking for, what Huw > > probably is > > >> missing and asking for too) and how such an account may be different > and > > >> more productive than protocolary statements of the sort of those > > exposed in > > >> the video Annalisa has shared. > > >> > > >> With all due respect, > > >> Alfredo > > >> > > >> PS: you can see in how much I do articulate how much of an outsider I > > >> feel/am, and how much work it takes for us to participate. I hope to > be > > >> able to abbreviate a bit more at some point... > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ________________________________________ > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu> > > >> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > > >> Sent: 28 October 2016 05:24 > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > >> > > >> Thank you for the explanation. > > >> > > >> > > >> Why not address Huw? Why me? > > >> > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu> > > >> on behalf of David H Kirshner > > >> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > >> > > >> Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than intimidation, > > >> itself. > > >> David > > >> > > >> > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 28 13:13:34 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 21:13:34 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> Message-ID: Seems fine! On 28 October 2016 at 21:04, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Huw, > > > It isn't about logic. It is about not being a jerk. Many people can be > logical *and* kind. > > > In other words, I do not accept your implicit equation that being logical > means being dominating, cruel, and/or insensitive. Even Mr. Spock was not a > mechanical automaton, but then he was half human; you are 100% human. > Unless... you are just a bot that has passed the Turing test. In that case, > bravo. > > > How is that for being brief, without bullet points. > > > Annalisa > > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 1:52 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > I would like to say again I am sorry for the rude email, its been a day for > squirming. What I would like to do, is take something from this. The > technology part to the offensive email was the reason I chipped in. > Generally I like to brief, both to get to the point but also not to hog the > space. > > Here are some issues, I am currently thinking about: > > i) Lets assume for the sake of it that a 'discourse of logic' is one of > many equally applicable approaches. I have read interesting articles about > the treatment of science as a specialisation of writing, so it is not > entirely foreign to me. > > ii) This raises (to me) big questions concerning alternative viable > structures for many subjects (-ologies) and the fabric of technology. But > even were we to try to put this aside and to treat discourses as equal, if > it turns out that actually one discourse is inherently more powerful than > another in a certain context, then we again have a problem of 'pandering' > to the weaker discourse and effectively reducing opportunities for taking > up something that is inherently more useful in that context. > > iii) A significant proportion of the discourse pertaining to technical > understandings of developmental processes is heavily logical. > > iv) Let us suppose that you can have a convention along the lines of "when > in Rome...", meaning that each thread has a dominant discourse, how does > that pan out? > > v) Supposing one said "logic is an offensive weapon, and should only be > used in certain contexts", well are we not denying this skill to others by > hiding it away? > > Back to the technology. I don't know if its clear, but the reasoning I was > giving earlier about "a social policy" being the most important is, I > think, the same thing Greg is alluding to. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 28 October 2016 at 18:39, Greg Mcverry wrote: > > > I too am new to the list serve. In fact I think Jacob introduced me. I > have > > since shared XMCA with scholars everywhere, but I often get the feedback > > that the practices do feel engendered. > > > > Basically I get comments that the academic discourse is of the > > -oneupmanship (deliberately engendered) and argumentation that has long > > favored the dominant narrative. Basically privledged white males excel at > > this kind of discourse sense they helped to build the system. > > > > This is not something unique to the listserv. It is something as a > society > > we need to address. > > > > Can technology help? Maybe> I think listserves stink because they work so > > well. They are truly one of the only federated systems on the web. > > > > Their success leads to an amplification and mirroring of discourse > > practices that exist in both digital and meat spaces. > > > > I do wonder if we turned to open source tools like Discourse (an email > > enabled discussion board) where features could help create a more > inclusive > > environment. Specifically there are moderation tools, we can create > labels, > > archive discussions, have private chat features....and actually find > > previous conversations. > > > > Just switching platforms will not address the problem. > > > > I am not saying technology isn't value laden but we as actors must be > > conscience of community we create and curate . > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 11:37 AM Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > > On 28 October 2016 at 15:16, Jenna McWilliams > > wrote: > > > > > I do think the people who choose to "stay clear," as you say, of gender > > > are those who tend to feel that accusations of sexism are, as you say, > > > "arbitrary." They're nearly always not arbitrary, no matter how > confusing > > > it may feel to be on the receiving end of such an accusation. > > > > > > > > By arbitrary I mean the relative scope of what is logically perceived > and, > > worse, when the logic itself is perceived to be part of the power > > relation. I.e. when a request to heed the logic is itself treated as > > exercising an abusive power. It is true that logic is powerful -- a hard > > won skill -- but I think it is madness to politicise it. If you could > > disentangle the various sources of power, then perhaps it would be a > > simpler problem. > > > > I hope that helps and I'm happy to continue offline. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jacob McWilliams > > > jennamcjenna@gmail.com > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > thank you so much for taking the time to articulate, Huw, it is very > > > much appreciated. Of course, humour ceases to be such when explained... > > But > > > yes, there is definitely an issue and it seems that staying clear when > > > using sexist terms could also be in the subject line. > > > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > > > > Sent: 28 October 2016 10:35 > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > > > > > > > Clarifying on the link, it is a cartoon in which a female stick > figure > > is > > > > saying "Penises: they are about this big (pretty small). Now can we > > > please, > > > > as a culture, move on." > > > > > > > > The headings are a simple leap: it is necessary to be overt if you > want > > > to > > > > indicate some form of desired behaviour. I literally do mean that > you > > > > could put "slow" up in the subject line, indicating that you want to > > > have a > > > > slow conversation... and that you don't mind if you have a thread > that > > > > appears to have fallen with a thud. The peculiarity of it is > > > commensurate > > > > with the peculiarity of wanting to guide others in the responses > > sought. > > > > > > > > It seems to me to be a plague subject: something v. important, but > also > > > > something that can be used to accuse others on pretty much any > > arbitrary > > > > basis. No wonder people stay clear. > > > > > > > > Sorry, again, to offend. I really do have other things I should be > > > doing. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Huw > > > > > > > >> On 28 October 2016 at 07:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Annalisa, Huw, > > > >> > > > >> As someone that has moved from one country (Spain) to another > > (Norway), > > > >> then lived a while in another (Australia), and yet a couple more > years > > > >> somewhere else (Canada), having in the way changed kindergarten, > > school, > > > >> neighbourhood, hair dresser, office colleagues... I know how closely > > > >> humour/irony and membership are connected. You really don't need to > > move > > > >> across countries to know that, just try to follow any English > > > conversation > > > >> between professional/training pilots, or a chat between orange > pickers > > > in > > > >> Valencia talking Spanish or Catalan (no matter what country they are > > > from) > > > >> while lunch during a work day, to realise that you have no clue what > > > they > > > >> are talking about even though they seem to be talking (and laughing) > > in > > > a > > > >> language (English, Spanish, Catalan) you think you know. > > > >> > > > >> When I read Huw's post, I had to do a search for almost every word > he > > > >> used, including hogging, humping, and I am still wondering whether > > > "SHUF" > > > >> might refer to a command in programming that generates "random > > > >> permutations" (that's what I found online!). I did not know these > > > words in > > > >> English, and so I had to look for them. Even more embarrassing is > the > > > fact > > > >> that, even though I know every word, I have not yet got what the > > > squirrel > > > >> story is about, or how it relates to the thread it was posted on... > > Not > > > >> that the story is nonsense, but only that I do not (yet) belong to > > > whatever > > > >> history (chains of reference, whatever you'd like to call it) has > > > brought > > > >> it up as a sense-full story/joke/turn, etc. > > > >> > > > >> The thing is that humour seems to be tightly connected to the sort > of > > > >> abbreviation that Vygotsky described with regard to inner speech. As > > > people > > > >> get along well together, just as the 3 boys in Larry's post do, > there > > is > > > >> lesser need for articulation, things can be shortened, they can > simply > > > be > > > >> suggested by a word, a gesture. As Vygotsky notes, "When the > thoughts > > > and > > > >> consciousness of the interlocutors are one, the role of speech in > the > > > >> achievement of flawless understanding is reduced to a minimum." I > love > > > >> humour, and irony (not sarcasm, as Huw notes), and I believe they > are > > > vital > > > >> for a healthy humanity and, again as Huw notes, to a healthy list. > > > Through > > > >> humour we can address challenges and paradoxes in ways that > > articulation > > > >> and explicit talk simply cannot. Yet, if it is right that humour > rests > > > upon > > > >> this competence of abbreviating, of not needing to say the unsaid to > > > make > > > >> it said, then there always is the risk that someone else won't hear > > the > > > >> same and, worst, feel excluded, ridiculed, etc... I think those are > > > >> occasions for articulating rather than for more abbreviation. I > think > > > that > > > >> such occasions are important because, otherwise, we may loose highly > > > >> interesting discussions on the historical and genetic account of the > > > >> problem (what Annalisa and Larry have been asking for, what Huw > > > probably is > > > >> missing and asking for too) and how such an account may be different > > and > > > >> more productive than protocolary statements of the sort of those > > > exposed in > > > >> the video Annalisa has shared. > > > >> > > > >> With all due respect, > > > >> Alfredo > > > >> > > > >> PS: you can see in how much I do articulate how much of an outsider > I > > > >> feel/am, and how much work it takes for us to participate. I hope to > > be > > > >> able to abbreviate a bit more at some point... > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ________________________________________ > > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > edu> > > > >> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > > > >> Sent: 28 October 2016 05:24 > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > > >> > > > >> Thank you for the explanation. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Why not address Huw? Why me? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ________________________________ > > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > edu> > > > >> on behalf of David H Kirshner > > > >> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > > >> > > > >> Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than > intimidation, > > > >> itself. > > > >> David > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Oct 28 13:28:32 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 20:28:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> , Message-ID: I would like to at this time, which seems logically pertinent, to suggest a viewing of the recent October Surprise movie by Michael Moore called, Trumpland. There is much that allies in-the-making could learn from him. Seeing that he is a white male of a particular kind of working-class privilege. https://itunes.apple.com/us/tv-season/michael-moore-in-trumpland/id1160816638 Now if anyone could be the master of humor with regard to gender differences in today's society, it would be Michael Moore, IMHO. I will also say that one must pay for the movie, but once purchased I believe it may be viewed as many times as you like. Not bad for 5 bucks. You can share with your friends during the holidays... I laughed, until I cried, and then my squirrel cheeks hurt. FWIW, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 2:13 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Seems fine! On 28 October 2016 at 21:04, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Huw, > > > It isn't about logic. It is about not being a jerk. Many people can be > logical *and* kind. > > > In other words, I do not accept your implicit equation that being logical > means being dominating, cruel, and/or insensitive. Even Mr. Spock was not a > mechanical automaton, but then he was half human; you are 100% human. > Unless... you are just a bot that has passed the Turing test. In that case, > bravo. > > > How is that for being brief, without bullet points. > > > Annalisa > > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 1:52 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > I would like to say again I am sorry for the rude email, its been a day for > squirming. What I would like to do, is take something from this. The > technology part to the offensive email was the reason I chipped in. > Generally I like to brief, both to get to the point but also not to hog the > space. > > Here are some issues, I am currently thinking about: > > i) Lets assume for the sake of it that a 'discourse of logic' is one of > many equally applicable approaches. I have read interesting articles about > the treatment of science as a specialisation of writing, so it is not > entirely foreign to me. > > ii) This raises (to me) big questions concerning alternative viable > structures for many subjects (-ologies) and the fabric of technology. But > even were we to try to put this aside and to treat discourses as equal, if > it turns out that actually one discourse is inherently more powerful than > another in a certain context, then we again have a problem of 'pandering' > to the weaker discourse and effectively reducing opportunities for taking > up something that is inherently more useful in that context. > > iii) A significant proportion of the discourse pertaining to technical > understandings of developmental processes is heavily logical. > > iv) Let us suppose that you can have a convention along the lines of "when > in Rome...", meaning that each thread has a dominant discourse, how does > that pan out? > > v) Supposing one said "logic is an offensive weapon, and should only be > used in certain contexts", well are we not denying this skill to others by > hiding it away? > > Back to the technology. I don't know if its clear, but the reasoning I was > giving earlier about "a social policy" being the most important is, I > think, the same thing Greg is alluding to. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 28 October 2016 at 18:39, Greg Mcverry wrote: > > > I too am new to the list serve. In fact I think Jacob introduced me. I > have > > since shared XMCA with scholars everywhere, but I often get the feedback > > that the practices do feel engendered. > > > > Basically I get comments that the academic discourse is of the > > -oneupmanship (deliberately engendered) and argumentation that has long > > favored the dominant narrative. Basically privledged white males excel at > > this kind of discourse sense they helped to build the system. > > > > This is not something unique to the listserv. It is something as a > society > > we need to address. > > > > Can technology help? Maybe> I think listserves stink because they work so > > well. They are truly one of the only federated systems on the web. > > > > Their success leads to an amplification and mirroring of discourse > > practices that exist in both digital and meat spaces. > > > > I do wonder if we turned to open source tools like Discourse (an email > > enabled discussion board) where features could help create a more > inclusive > > environment. Specifically there are moderation tools, we can create > labels, > > archive discussions, have private chat features....and actually find > > previous conversations. > > > > Just switching platforms will not address the problem. > > > > I am not saying technology isn't value laden but we as actors must be > > conscience of community we create and curate . > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 11:37 AM Huw Lloyd > > wrote: > > > > On 28 October 2016 at 15:16, Jenna McWilliams > > wrote: > > > > > I do think the people who choose to "stay clear," as you say, of gender > > > are those who tend to feel that accusations of sexism are, as you say, > > > "arbitrary." They're nearly always not arbitrary, no matter how > confusing > > > it may feel to be on the receiving end of such an accusation. > > > > > > > > By arbitrary I mean the relative scope of what is logically perceived > and, > > worse, when the logic itself is perceived to be part of the power > > relation. I.e. when a request to heed the logic is itself treated as > > exercising an abusive power. It is true that logic is powerful -- a hard > > won skill -- but I think it is madness to politicise it. If you could > > disentangle the various sources of power, then perhaps it would be a > > simpler problem. > > > > I hope that helps and I'm happy to continue offline. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jacob McWilliams > > > jennamcjenna@gmail.com > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > thank you so much for taking the time to articulate, Huw, it is very > > > much appreciated. Of course, humour ceases to be such when explained... > > But > > > yes, there is definitely an issue and it seems that staying clear when > > > using sexist terms could also be in the subject line. > > > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu edu > > > > > > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > > > > Sent: 28 October 2016 10:35 > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > > > > > > > Clarifying on the link, it is a cartoon in which a female stick > figure > > is > > > > saying "Penises: they are about this big (pretty small). Now can we > > > please, > > > > as a culture, move on." > > > > > > > > The headings are a simple leap: it is necessary to be overt if you > want > > > to > > > > indicate some form of desired behaviour. I literally do mean that > you > > > > could put "slow" up in the subject line, indicating that you want to > > > have a > > > > slow conversation... and that you don't mind if you have a thread > that > > > > appears to have fallen with a thud. The peculiarity of it is > > > commensurate > > > > with the peculiarity of wanting to guide others in the responses > > sought. > > > > > > > > It seems to me to be a plague subject: something v. important, but > also > > > > something that can be used to accuse others on pretty much any > > arbitrary > > > > basis. No wonder people stay clear. > > > > > > > > Sorry, again, to offend. I really do have other things I should be > > > doing. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Huw > > > > > > > >> On 28 October 2016 at 07:44, Alfredo Jornet Gil < > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Annalisa, Huw, > > > >> > > > >> As someone that has moved from one country (Spain) to another > > (Norway), > > > >> then lived a while in another (Australia), and yet a couple more > years > > > >> somewhere else (Canada), having in the way changed kindergarten, > > school, > > > >> neighbourhood, hair dresser, office colleagues... I know how closely > > > >> humour/irony and membership are connected. You really don't need to > > move > > > >> across countries to know that, just try to follow any English > > > conversation > > > >> between professional/training pilots, or a chat between orange > pickers > > > in > > > >> Valencia talking Spanish or Catalan (no matter what country they are > > > from) > > > >> while lunch during a work day, to realise that you have no clue what > > > they > > > >> are talking about even though they seem to be talking (and laughing) > > in > > > a > > > >> language (English, Spanish, Catalan) you think you know. > > > >> > > > >> When I read Huw's post, I had to do a search for almost every word > he > > > >> used, including hogging, humping, and I am still wondering whether > > > "SHUF" > > > >> might refer to a command in programming that generates "random > > > >> permutations" (that's what I found online!). I did not know these > > > words in > > > >> English, and so I had to look for them. Even more embarrassing is > the > > > fact > > > >> that, even though I know every word, I have not yet got what the > > > squirrel > > > >> story is about, or how it relates to the thread it was posted on... > > Not > > > >> that the story is nonsense, but only that I do not (yet) belong to > > > whatever > > > >> history (chains of reference, whatever you'd like to call it) has > > > brought > > > >> it up as a sense-full story/joke/turn, etc. > > > >> > > > >> The thing is that humour seems to be tightly connected to the sort > of > > > >> abbreviation that Vygotsky described with regard to inner speech. As > > > people > > > >> get along well together, just as the 3 boys in Larry's post do, > there > > is > > > >> lesser need for articulation, things can be shortened, they can > simply > > > be > > > >> suggested by a word, a gesture. As Vygotsky notes, "When the > thoughts > > > and > > > >> consciousness of the interlocutors are one, the role of speech in > the > > > >> achievement of flawless understanding is reduced to a minimum." I > love > > > >> humour, and irony (not sarcasm, as Huw notes), and I believe they > are > > > vital > > > >> for a healthy humanity and, again as Huw notes, to a healthy list. > > > Through > > > >> humour we can address challenges and paradoxes in ways that > > articulation > > > >> and explicit talk simply cannot. Yet, if it is right that humour > rests > > > upon > > > >> this competence of abbreviating, of not needing to say the unsaid to > > > make > > > >> it said, then there always is the risk that someone else won't hear > > the > > > >> same and, worst, feel excluded, ridiculed, etc... I think those are > > > >> occasions for articulating rather than for more abbreviation. I > think > > > that > > > >> such occasions are important because, otherwise, we may loose highly > > > >> interesting discussions on the historical and genetic account of the > > > >> problem (what Annalisa and Larry have been asking for, what Huw > > > probably is > > > >> missing and asking for too) and how such an account may be different > > and > > > >> more productive than protocolary statements of the sort of those > > > exposed in > > > >> the video Annalisa has shared. > > > >> > > > >> With all due respect, > > > >> Alfredo > > > >> > > > >> PS: you can see in how much I do articulate how much of an outsider > I > > > >> feel/am, and how much work it takes for us to participate. I hope to > > be > > > >> able to abbreviate a bit more at some point... > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ________________________________________ > > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > edu> > > > >> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar > > > >> Sent: 28 October 2016 05:24 > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > > >> > > > >> Thank you for the explanation. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Why not address Huw? Why me? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ________________________________ > > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > edu> > > > >> on behalf of David H Kirshner > > > >> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:18 PM > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > > >> > > > >> Surely, Annalisa, a symbol of intimidation, rather than > intimidation, > > > >> itself. > > > >> David > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > From pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu Fri Oct 28 13:50:55 2016 From: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu (Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 16:50:55 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the relevant passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the other sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been much theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal system. I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not just a political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it hard to imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking is developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational initiation-response) system of thinking. If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this topic, please don't hold back! Much obliged. In solidarity, Peter On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole wrote: > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come up with > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his little book > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on "Speech > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and > Maltzman, *Handbook > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the late > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were special > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the use of > first and second signal system by Pavlov > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. > > mike > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and absolutely > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say > insensitivity) > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could use > your > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to locate > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers to > the > > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system as > the > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes as > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is particular to > > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis that, in > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes *domesticated* > by, > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, the > S-R > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a person > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this poor, > > stumbling colleague > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > > > Warm wishes to all, > > Peter > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks to > Mike > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the opportunity > for > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas in an > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to raise > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation in > this > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its participants as > is > > humanly possible. > > > > -- > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > Director, > > Office of Institutional Research > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > Fordham University > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > -- Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. Director, Office of Institutional Research Fordham University Thebaud Hall-202 Bronx, NY 10458 Phone: (718) 817-2243 Fax: (718) 817-3817 email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Oct 28 14:02:27 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 21:02:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> , Message-ID: I would like to post something historic that I don't think has ever been declared by the New York times prior to a US Election: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/upshot/presidential-polls-forecast.html It feels highly relevant to this thread, because it may shine a light on what it feels like to see a story of a woman prevailing in very neutral language. You will note, there is nothing about her hair, nor her appearance, nor mention of her husband. And, to Huw's (probable) liking, there's a lot of statistics that show (I hope) the inevitable. Kind regards, Annalisa From nancy.mack@wright.edu Fri Oct 28 14:03:46 2016 From: nancy.mack@wright.edu (Mack, Nancy J.) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 21:03:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: The email address is incorrect. It bounces back as undelivered. Nancy Dr. Nancy Mack Professor of English ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:13 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems Dr. Nancy Mack and like minded others! If you are already a subscriber and wish to unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Bruce Jones from the subscribed address. The web page is being modified to make this information more salient. *mike* On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mack, Nancy J. wrote: > unsubscribe > > > Dr. Nancy Mack > Professor of English > > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 1:43 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* > and *Second* Signal Systems > > Dear colleagues, > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and absolutely > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say insensitivity) > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could use your > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to locate > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers to the > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system as the > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes as > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is particular to > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis that, in > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes *domesticated* by, > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, the S-R > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a person > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this poor, > stumbling colleague > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > Warm wishes to all, > Peter > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks to Mike > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the opportunity for > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas in an > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to raise > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation in this > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its participants as is > humanly possible. > > -- > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > Director, > Office of Institutional Research > 3A__www.fordham.edu_academics_office-5Fof-5Fthe-5Fprovos_ > office-5Fof-5Finstitutio_index.asp&d=CwIBaQ&c=3buyMx9JlH1z22L_G5pM28wz_ > Ru6WjhVHwo-vpeS0Gk&r=VzHmEvLmXHfhnum90TWZynvJysQDjyaUfncm3-0C7EQ&m= > bwn1PRvkzbvhlKdEW6nVRNhsScN_Iv3deqwxlouvHDU&s= > DECK5fQWd1sGtseS6nrtI2ZWXhemF35hLyupHYEGJGU&e= > > Fordham University > Thebaud Hall-202 > Bronx, NY 10458 > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Oct 28 14:10:46 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 08:10:46 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter: I think Mike's right. The "second signal system" was an attempt to preserve the idea of higher psychological functions in an atmosphere that was not that different from what was going on in America at the same time (and which Mike experienced first hand in both places). When I read Belyayev's work on foreign language teaching, he talks a lot about the "second signal system". There, are, however, two places in Vygotsky which MIGHT provide some support, if you wanted to make the case that the "second signal system" is not completely incompatible with Vygotsky. One is Chapter Two of the History of the Development of the Higher Mental functions. See below. Starting around paragraph 142, Vygotsky likens Pavlov's model of the brain as a telephone exchange. The problem, of course, is that back then telephone exchanges did require human operators to make the connection! The other is the discussion of "second order symbolism" in the work of Delacroix, which you can find in Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech and also in Chapter 7 of HDHMF (fifth para). This is a very different notion--it's the idea that writing is a set of symbols for speaking. David Kellogg Macquarie University >From HDHMF, Chapter Two, Research Method We know that, as Pavlov says, ?the most general bases of higher nervous activity are ascribed to the large hemispheres, the same in both higher animals and in people, and for this reason even elementary phenomena of this activity must be identical in the one and in the other in both normal and pathological cases? (1951, p. 15). Actually, this can scarcely be disputed. But as soon as we go from the elementary phenomena of higher nervous activity to the complex, to the higher phenomena within this higher ? in the physiological sense ? activity, then two different methodological paths for studying the specific uniqueness of human higher behavior open before us. One is the path to further study of complication, enrichment, and differentiation of the same phenomena that experimental study ascertains in animals. Here, on this path, the greatest restraint must be observed. In transferring information on higher nervous activity of animals to higher activity of man, we must constantly check the factual similarities in the function of organs in man and animals, but in general the principle itself of the research remains the same as it was in the study of animals. This is the path of physiological study. True, this circumstance is of major significance and in the area of physiological study of behavior, in a comparative study of man and animals, we must not put the function of the heart, stomach, and other organs which are so similar to that of man on the same plane with higher nervous activity. In the words of I. P. Pavlov, ?It is specifically this activity that so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals, that places man immeasurably above the whole animal world? (ibid. p. 414). And we might expect that along the path of physiological research we will find a specific qualitative difference in human activity. Let us recall the words of Pavlov cited above on the quantitative and qualitative incomparability of the word with conditioned stimuli of animals. Even in the plan of strict physiological consideration, ?the grandiose signalistics of speech? stands outside the whole other mass of stimuli, the ?multicapaciousness of the word? places it in a unique position. The other path is the path of psychological research. From the very beginning, it proposes to seek the specific uniqueness of human behavior which does take us beyond the initial point. The specific uniqueness is considered not only in its subsequent complexity and development, quantitative and qualitative refinement of the cerebral hemispheres, but primarily in the social nature of man and in a new method of adaptation, as compared with animals, that sets man apart. The main difference between the behavior of man and of animals consists not only in that the human brain is immeasurably above the brain of the dog and that the higher nervous activity ?so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals,? but most of all, because it is the brain of a social being and because the laws of higher nervous activity of man are manifested and act in the human personality. But let us return again to the ?most general bases of higher nervous activity, related to the cerebral hemispheres,? and identical in higher animals and man. We think that it is in this point that we can disclose with definitive clarity the difference of which we speak. The most general basis of behavior, identical in man and animals, is *signalization.* Pavlov said, ?So the basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres is signaling with an infinite number of signals and with changeable signalization? (ibid., p. 30). As is known, this is the most general formulation of the whole idea of conditioned reflexes that lies at the base of the physiology of higher nervous activity. But human behavior is distinguished exactly in that it creates artificial signaling stimuli, primarily the grandiose signalization of speech, and in this way masters the signaling activity of the cerebral hemispheres. If the basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres in animals and in man is signalization, then the basic and most general activity of man that differentiates man from animals in the first place, from the aspect of psychology, is *signification,* that is, creation and use of signs. We are using this word in its most literal sense and precise meaning. Signification is the creation and use of signs, that is, artificial signals. We will consider more closely this new principle of activity. It must not in any sense be contrasted with the principle of signalization. Changeable signalization that results in the formation of temporary, conditional, special connections between the organism and the environment is an indispensable, biological prerequisite of the higher activity that we arbitrarily call signification and is its base. The system of connections that is established in the brain of an animal is a copy or reflection of natural connections between ?all kinds of agents of nature? that signal the arrival of immediately favorable or destructive phenomena. It is very obvious that such signalization ? a reflection of the natural connection of phenomena, wholly created by natural conditions ? cannot be an adequate basis of human behavior. For human adaptation, an active *change in the nature of man *is essential. It is the basis of all human history. It necessarily presupposes an active change in man?s behavior. ?Affecting the environment by this movement and changing it, he changes his own nature at the same time,? says Marx. ?He develops forces asleep in it and subjects the play of these forces to his own will? (K. Marx and F. Engels, *Collected Works,* Vol. 23, pp. 188-189 ). On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > Mike, > > Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the relevant > passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the other > sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been much > theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal system. > I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not just a > political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it hard to > imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking is > developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational > initiation-response) system of thinking. > > If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this topic, > please don't hold back! > > Much obliged. > > In solidarity, > Peter > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come up with > > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his little book > > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. > > > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on "Speech > > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and > > Maltzman, *Handbook > > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. > > > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the late > > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were special > > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the use of > > first and second signal system by Pavlov > > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. > > > > mike > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and absolutely > > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say > > insensitivity) > > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could use > > your > > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to > locate > > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers to > > the > > > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system as > > the > > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes as > > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the > > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is particular > to > > > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis that, > in > > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes *domesticated* > > by, > > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, the > > S-R > > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a person > > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this > poor, > > > stumbling colleague > > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > > > > > Warm wishes to all, > > > Peter > > > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks to > > Mike > > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the opportunity > > for > > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas in an > > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to > raise > > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation in > > this > > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its participants as > > is > > > humanly possible. > > > > > > -- > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > Director, > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > Fordham University > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > -- > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > Director, > Office of Institutional Research > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > Fordham University > Thebaud Hall-202 > Bronx, NY 10458 > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > From pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu Fri Oct 28 14:43:48 2016 From: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu (Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 17:43:48 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, As usual, your suggestions are both helpful and erudite. Thanks for the poignant references to Vygotsky and to Marx. Although Soviet academic politics may have complicated the issue, there does seem to be some substance to the argument that the nervous systems of animals and the speech communication systems of humans share the common property of *signalization*. Personally, I think there's a lot more to this topic than meets the eye--or, better yet, there's a lot of opportunity here for developing the problem further. Once again, I owe an intellectual debt to the participants of this listserv! Cheers, Peter On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:10 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Peter: > > I think Mike's right. The "second signal system" was an attempt to preserve > the idea of higher psychological functions in an atmosphere that was not > that different from what was going on in America at the same time (and > which Mike experienced first hand in both places). When I read Belyayev's > work on foreign language teaching, he talks a lot about the "second signal > system". There, are, however, two places in Vygotsky which MIGHT provide > some support, if you wanted to make the case that the "second signal > system" is not completely incompatible with Vygotsky. > > One is Chapter Two of the History of the Development of the Higher Mental > functions. See below. Starting around paragraph 142, Vygotsky likens > Pavlov's model of the brain as a telephone exchange. The problem, of > course, is that back then telephone exchanges did require human operators > to make the connection! > > The other is the discussion of "second order symbolism" in the work of > Delacroix, which you can find in Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech and > also in Chapter 7 of HDHMF (fifth para). This is a very different > notion--it's the idea that writing is a set of symbols for speaking. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > > >From HDHMF, Chapter Two, Research Method > > We know that, as Pavlov says, ?the most general bases of higher nervous > activity are ascribed to the large hemispheres, the same in both higher > animals and in people, and for this reason even elementary phenomena of > this activity must be identical in the one and in the other in both normal > and pathological cases? (1951, p. 15). Actually, this can scarcely be > disputed. But as soon as we go from the elementary phenomena of higher > nervous activity to the complex, to the higher phenomena within this higher > ? in the physiological sense ? activity, then two different methodological > paths for studying the specific uniqueness of human higher behavior open > before us. > > One is the path to further study of complication, enrichment, and > differentiation of the same phenomena that experimental study ascertains in > animals. Here, on this path, the greatest restraint must be observed. In > transferring information on higher nervous activity of animals to higher > activity of man, we must constantly check the factual similarities in the > function of organs in man and animals, but in general the principle itself > of the research remains the same as it was in the study of animals. This is > the path of physiological study. > > True, this circumstance is of major significance and in the area of > physiological study of behavior, in a comparative study of man and animals, > we must not put the function of the heart, stomach, and other organs which > are so similar to that of man on the same plane with higher nervous > activity. In the words of I. P. Pavlov, ?It is specifically this activity > that so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals, that places man > immeasurably above the whole animal world? (ibid. p. 414). And we might > expect that along the path of physiological research we will find a > specific qualitative difference in human activity. Let us recall the words > of Pavlov cited above on the quantitative and qualitative incomparability > of the word with conditioned stimuli of animals. Even in the plan of strict > physiological consideration, ?the grandiose signalistics of speech? stands > outside the whole other mass of stimuli, the ?multicapaciousness of the > word? places it in a unique position. > > The other path is the path of psychological research. From the very > beginning, it proposes to seek the specific uniqueness of human behavior > which does take us beyond the initial point. The specific uniqueness is > considered not only in its subsequent complexity and development, > quantitative and qualitative refinement of the cerebral hemispheres, but > primarily in the social nature of man and in a new method of adaptation, as > compared with animals, that sets man apart. The main difference between the > behavior of man and of animals consists not only in that the human brain is > immeasurably above the brain of the dog and that the higher nervous > activity ?so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals,? but most > of all, because it is the brain of a social being and because the laws of > higher nervous activity of man are manifested and act in the human > personality. > > But let us return again to the ?most general bases of higher nervous > activity, related to the cerebral hemispheres,? and identical in higher > animals and man. We think that it is in this point that we can disclose > with definitive clarity the difference of which we speak. The most general > basis of behavior, identical in man and animals, is *signalization.* Pavlov > said, ?So the basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres > is signaling with an infinite number of signals and with changeable > signalization? (ibid., p. 30). As is known, this is the most general > formulation of the whole idea of conditioned reflexes that lies at the base > of the physiology of higher nervous activity. > > But human behavior is distinguished exactly in that it creates artificial > signaling stimuli, primarily the grandiose signalization of speech, and in > this way masters the signaling activity of the cerebral hemispheres. If the > basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres in animals and > in man is signalization, then the basic and most general activity of man > that differentiates man from animals in the first place, from the aspect of > psychology, is *signification,* that is, creation and use of signs. We are > using this word in its most literal sense and precise meaning. > Signification is the creation and use of signs, that is, artificial > signals. > > We will consider more closely this new principle of activity. It must not > in any sense be contrasted with the principle of signalization. Changeable > signalization that results in the formation of temporary, conditional, > special connections between the organism and the environment is an > indispensable, biological prerequisite of the higher activity that we > arbitrarily call signification and is its base. The system of connections > that is established in the brain of an animal is a copy or reflection of > natural connections between ?all kinds of agents of nature? that signal the > arrival of immediately favorable or destructive phenomena. > > It is very obvious that such signalization ? a reflection of the natural > connection of phenomena, wholly created by natural conditions ? cannot be > an adequate basis of human behavior. For human adaptation, an active > *change > in the nature of man *is essential. It is the basis of all human history. > It necessarily presupposes an active change in man?s behavior. ?Affecting > the environment by this movement and changing it, he changes his own nature > at the same time,? says Marx. ?He develops forces asleep in it and subjects > the play of these forces to his own will? (K. Marx and F. Engels, > *Collected > Works,* Vol. 23, pp. 188-189 > 3A__www.marxists.org_archive_marx_works_1867-2Dc1_ch07.htm- > 23forces&d=DQIFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r= > mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=cxiDdHmIrHosSMq59vJlZ4j-S- > 4h5DSiLaMzqzi2yNA&s=J3sZBxFP1DTk3B8MLGJTyEw-RZmpA347cJfMSUrwSa4&e= >). > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > Mike, > > > > Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the relevant > > passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the other > > sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been much > > theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal system. > > I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not just a > > political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it hard > to > > imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking is > > developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational > > initiation-response) system of thinking. > > > > If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this topic, > > please don't hold back! > > > > Much obliged. > > > > In solidarity, > > Peter > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come up > with > > > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his little > book > > > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. > > > > > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on "Speech > > > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and > > > Maltzman, *Handbook > > > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. > > > > > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the late > > > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were > special > > > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the use of > > > first and second signal system by Pavlov > > > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and > absolutely > > > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say > > > insensitivity) > > > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could use > > > your > > > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to > > locate > > > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers > to > > > the > > > > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > > > > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system > as > > > the > > > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes as > > > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the > > > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is particular > > to > > > > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis that, > > in > > > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes > *domesticated* > > > by, > > > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, > the > > > S-R > > > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > > > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a > person > > > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > > > > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this > > poor, > > > > stumbling colleague > > > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > > > > > > > Warm wishes to all, > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks > to > > > Mike > > > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the > opportunity > > > for > > > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas in > an > > > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to > > raise > > > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation > in > > > this > > > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its participants > as > > > is > > > > humanly possible. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > Director, > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > Fordham University > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > Director, > > Office of Institutional Research > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > Fordham University > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > -- Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. Director, Office of Institutional Research Fordham University Thebaud Hall-202 Bronx, NY 10458 Phone: (718) 817-2243 Fax: (718) 817-3817 email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Oct 28 15:50:16 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 15:50:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Peter-- I believe that second signal system is more or less a synonym for language/culture mediated thought and action so LSV had a ton to say about it. The closeness of fit allowed people like Luria to continue to develop their theorizing and research while continuing to live at home. Bella and other Luria students would have a better idea about this than me. mike On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > Mike, > > Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the relevant > passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the other > sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been much > theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal system. > I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not just a > political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it hard to > imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking is > developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational > initiation-response) system of thinking. > > If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this topic, > please don't hold back! > > Much obliged. > > In solidarity, > Peter > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come up with > > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his little book > > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. > > > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on "Speech > > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and > > Maltzman, *Handbook > > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. > > > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the late > > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were special > > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the use of > > first and second signal system by Pavlov > > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. > > > > mike > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and absolutely > > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say > > insensitivity) > > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could use > > your > > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to > locate > > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers to > > the > > > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system as > > the > > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes as > > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the > > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is particular > to > > > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis that, > in > > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes *domesticated* > > by, > > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, the > > S-R > > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a person > > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this > poor, > > > stumbling colleague > > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > > > > > Warm wishes to all, > > > Peter > > > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks to > > Mike > > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the opportunity > > for > > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas in an > > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to > raise > > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation in > > this > > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its participants as > > is > > > humanly possible. > > > > > > -- > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > Director, > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > Fordham University > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > -- > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > Director, > Office of Institutional Research > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > Fordham University > Thebaud Hall-202 > Bronx, NY 10458 > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Oct 28 15:59:42 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 15:59:42 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did not see David's note before I sent my followup, Peter. Vygotsky did not face the purge-like events of the Pavlov sessions and I am not even certain that Pavlov had started talking about two signalling systems by the time LSV died. So LSV's comments are less likely to be an effort at camouflage. The conditions in 1952 were different than those in 1932. mike On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 3:50 PM, mike cole wrote: > Hi Peter-- I believe that second signal system is more or less a synonym > for language/culture mediated thought and action so LSV had a ton to say > about it. The closeness of fit allowed people like Luria to continue to > develop their theorizing and research while continuing to live at home. > > Bella and other Luria students would have a better idea about this than me. > > mike > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > >> Mike, >> >> Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the relevant >> passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the other >> sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been much >> theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal system. >> I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not just a >> political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it hard to >> imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking is >> developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational >> initiation-response) system of thinking. >> >> If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this topic, >> please don't hold back! >> >> Much obliged. >> >> In solidarity, >> Peter >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come up with >> > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his little >> book >> > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. >> > >> > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on "Speech >> > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and >> > Maltzman, *Handbook >> > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. >> > >> > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the late >> > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were >> special >> > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the use of >> > first and second signal system by Pavlov >> > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. >> > >> > mike >> > >> > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < >> > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: >> > >> > > Dear colleagues, >> > > >> > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and >> absolutely >> > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say >> > insensitivity) >> > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could use >> > your >> > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to >> locate >> > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers to >> > the >> > > *first* and *second* signal systems. >> > > >> > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system as >> > the >> > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes as >> > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the >> > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is particular >> to >> > > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis that, >> in >> > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes >> *domesticated* >> > by, >> > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, the >> > S-R >> > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the >> > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a >> person >> > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. >> > > >> > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this >> poor, >> > > stumbling colleague >> > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. >> > > >> > > Warm wishes to all, >> > > Peter >> > > >> > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks to >> > Mike >> > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the opportunity >> > for >> > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas in >> an >> > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to >> raise >> > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation in >> > this >> > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its participants >> as >> > is >> > > humanly possible. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. >> > > Director, >> > > Office of Institutional Research >> > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> >> > > Fordham University >> > > Thebaud Hall-202 >> > > Bronx, NY 10458 >> > > >> > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 >> > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 >> > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. >> Director, >> Office of Institutional Research >> > office_of_institutio/index.asp> >> Fordham University >> Thebaud Hall-202 >> Bronx, NY 10458 >> >> Phone: (718) 817-2243 >> Fax: (718) 817-3817 >> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu >> > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Oct 29 08:58:50 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 16:58:50 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First* and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter, If by signalisation you mean use of signs to influence behaviour in terms of operational criteria and speech, then yes this is so. It has been studied quite systematically, but is perhaps less well known. I can elaborate on this if this is your drift. Best, Huw On 28 October 2016 at 22:43, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > David, > > As usual, your suggestions are both helpful and erudite. Thanks for the > poignant references to Vygotsky and to Marx. Although Soviet academic > politics may have complicated the issue, there does seem to be some > substance to the argument that the nervous systems of animals and the > speech communication systems of humans share the common property of > *signalization*. Personally, I think there's a lot more to this topic than > meets the eye--or, better yet, there's a lot of opportunity here for > developing the problem further. > > Once again, I owe an intellectual debt to the participants of this > listserv! > > Cheers, > Peter > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:10 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Peter: > > > > I think Mike's right. The "second signal system" was an attempt to > preserve > > the idea of higher psychological functions in an atmosphere that was not > > that different from what was going on in America at the same time (and > > which Mike experienced first hand in both places). When I read Belyayev's > > work on foreign language teaching, he talks a lot about the "second > signal > > system". There, are, however, two places in Vygotsky which MIGHT provide > > some support, if you wanted to make the case that the "second signal > > system" is not completely incompatible with Vygotsky. > > > > One is Chapter Two of the History of the Development of the Higher Mental > > functions. See below. Starting around paragraph 142, Vygotsky likens > > Pavlov's model of the brain as a telephone exchange. The problem, of > > course, is that back then telephone exchanges did require human operators > > to make the connection! > > > > The other is the discussion of "second order symbolism" in the work of > > Delacroix, which you can find in Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech and > > also in Chapter 7 of HDHMF (fifth para). This is a very different > > notion--it's the idea that writing is a set of symbols for speaking. > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > > > >From HDHMF, Chapter Two, Research Method > > > > We know that, as Pavlov says, ?the most general bases of higher nervous > > activity are ascribed to the large hemispheres, the same in both higher > > animals and in people, and for this reason even elementary phenomena of > > this activity must be identical in the one and in the other in both > normal > > and pathological cases? (1951, p. 15). Actually, this can scarcely be > > disputed. But as soon as we go from the elementary phenomena of higher > > nervous activity to the complex, to the higher phenomena within this > higher > > ? in the physiological sense ? activity, then two different > methodological > > paths for studying the specific uniqueness of human higher behavior open > > before us. > > > > One is the path to further study of complication, enrichment, and > > differentiation of the same phenomena that experimental study ascertains > in > > animals. Here, on this path, the greatest restraint must be observed. In > > transferring information on higher nervous activity of animals to higher > > activity of man, we must constantly check the factual similarities in the > > function of organs in man and animals, but in general the principle > itself > > of the research remains the same as it was in the study of animals. This > is > > the path of physiological study. > > > > True, this circumstance is of major significance and in the area of > > physiological study of behavior, in a comparative study of man and > animals, > > we must not put the function of the heart, stomach, and other organs > which > > are so similar to that of man on the same plane with higher nervous > > activity. In the words of I. P. Pavlov, ?It is specifically this activity > > that so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals, that places > man > > immeasurably above the whole animal world? (ibid. p. 414). And we might > > expect that along the path of physiological research we will find a > > specific qualitative difference in human activity. Let us recall the > words > > of Pavlov cited above on the quantitative and qualitative incomparability > > of the word with conditioned stimuli of animals. Even in the plan of > strict > > physiological consideration, ?the grandiose signalistics of speech? > stands > > outside the whole other mass of stimuli, the ?multicapaciousness of the > > word? places it in a unique position. > > > > The other path is the path of psychological research. From the very > > beginning, it proposes to seek the specific uniqueness of human behavior > > which does take us beyond the initial point. The specific uniqueness is > > considered not only in its subsequent complexity and development, > > quantitative and qualitative refinement of the cerebral hemispheres, but > > primarily in the social nature of man and in a new method of adaptation, > as > > compared with animals, that sets man apart. The main difference between > the > > behavior of man and of animals consists not only in that the human brain > is > > immeasurably above the brain of the dog and that the higher nervous > > activity ?so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals,? but > most > > of all, because it is the brain of a social being and because the laws of > > higher nervous activity of man are manifested and act in the human > > personality. > > > > But let us return again to the ?most general bases of higher nervous > > activity, related to the cerebral hemispheres,? and identical in higher > > animals and man. We think that it is in this point that we can disclose > > with definitive clarity the difference of which we speak. The most > general > > basis of behavior, identical in man and animals, is *signalization.* > Pavlov > > said, ?So the basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres > > is signaling with an infinite number of signals and with changeable > > signalization? (ibid., p. 30). As is known, this is the most general > > formulation of the whole idea of conditioned reflexes that lies at the > base > > of the physiology of higher nervous activity. > > > > But human behavior is distinguished exactly in that it creates artificial > > signaling stimuli, primarily the grandiose signalization of speech, and > in > > this way masters the signaling activity of the cerebral hemispheres. If > the > > basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres in animals > and > > in man is signalization, then the basic and most general activity of man > > that differentiates man from animals in the first place, from the aspect > of > > psychology, is *signification,* that is, creation and use of signs. We > are > > using this word in its most literal sense and precise meaning. > > Signification is the creation and use of signs, that is, artificial > > signals. > > > > We will consider more closely this new principle of activity. It must not > > in any sense be contrasted with the principle of signalization. > Changeable > > signalization that results in the formation of temporary, conditional, > > special connections between the organism and the environment is an > > indispensable, biological prerequisite of the higher activity that we > > arbitrarily call signification and is its base. The system of connections > > that is established in the brain of an animal is a copy or reflection of > > natural connections between ?all kinds of agents of nature? that signal > the > > arrival of immediately favorable or destructive phenomena. > > > > It is very obvious that such signalization ? a reflection of the natural > > connection of phenomena, wholly created by natural conditions ? cannot be > > an adequate basis of human behavior. For human adaptation, an active > > *change > > in the nature of man *is essential. It is the basis of all human history. > > It necessarily presupposes an active change in man?s behavior. ?Affecting > > the environment by this movement and changing it, he changes his own > nature > > at the same time,? says Marx. ?He develops forces asleep in it and > subjects > > the play of these forces to his own will? (K. Marx and F. Engels, > > *Collected > > Works,* Vol. 23, pp. 188-189 > > > 3A__www.marxists.org_archive_marx_works_1867-2Dc1_ch07.htm- > > 23forces&d=DQIFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r= > > mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=cxiDdHmIrHosSMq59vJlZ4j-S- > > 4h5DSiLaMzqzi2yNA&s=J3sZBxFP1DTk3B8MLGJTyEw-RZmpA347cJfMSUrwSa4&e= >). > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the > relevant > > > passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the other > > > sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been much > > > theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal > system. > > > I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not > just a > > > political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it hard > > to > > > imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking is > > > developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational > > > initiation-response) system of thinking. > > > > > > If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this > topic, > > > please don't hold back! > > > > > > Much obliged. > > > > > > In solidarity, > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come up > > with > > > > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his little > > book > > > > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. > > > > > > > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on "Speech > > > > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and > > > > Maltzman, *Handbook > > > > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. > > > > > > > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the late > > > > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were > > special > > > > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the use > of > > > > first and second signal system by Pavlov > > > > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and > > absolutely > > > > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say > > > > insensitivity) > > > > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could > use > > > > your > > > > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to > > > locate > > > > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers > > to > > > > the > > > > > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system > > as > > > > the > > > > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes > as > > > > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the > > > > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is > particular > > > to > > > > > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis > that, > > > in > > > > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes > > *domesticated* > > > > by, > > > > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, > > the > > > > S-R > > > > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > > > > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a > > person > > > > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > > > > > > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this > > > poor, > > > > > stumbling colleague > > > > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > > > > > > > > > Warm wishes to all, > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks > > to > > > > Mike > > > > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the > > opportunity > > > > for > > > > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas > in > > an > > > > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to > > > raise > > > > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation > > in > > > > this > > > > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its > participants > > as > > > > is > > > > > humanly possible. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > Director, > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > Director, > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > Fordham University > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > -- > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > Director, > Office of Institutional Research > office_of_institutio/index.asp> > Fordham University > Thebaud Hall-202 > Bronx, NY 10458 > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Oct 29 09:45:04 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 09:45:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First*and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5814d218.45cf620a.84282.32f9@mx.google.com> In this discussion The center of this relational exploration is between signalization AND signification and my question goes back to the place of the general term *gesturing*. Is this signalization or is this phenomena signification. The act creating actual*ity (sens) which always includes tendency or orientation towards or away from something. The act is gestural acts and implies *each in the other*. The relation of gestural receiving and responding and this phenomena in relation to signalization and signification. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Huw Lloyd Sent: October 29, 2016 9:01 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First*and *Second* Signal Systems Peter, If by signalisation you mean use of signs to influence behaviour in terms of operational criteria and speech, then yes this is so. It has been studied quite systematically, but is perhaps less well known. I can elaborate on this if this is your drift. Best, Huw On 28 October 2016 at 22:43, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > David, > > As usual, your suggestions are both helpful and erudite. Thanks for the > poignant references to Vygotsky and to Marx. Although Soviet academic > politics may have complicated the issue, there does seem to be some > substance to the argument that the nervous systems of animals and the > speech communication systems of humans share the common property of > *signalization*. Personally, I think there's a lot more to this topic than > meets the eye--or, better yet, there's a lot of opportunity here for > developing the problem further. > > Once again, I owe an intellectual debt to the participants of this > listserv! > > Cheers, > Peter > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:10 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Peter: > > > > I think Mike's right. The "second signal system" was an attempt to > preserve > > the idea of higher psychological functions in an atmosphere that was not > > that different from what was going on in America at the same time (and > > which Mike experienced first hand in both places). When I read Belyayev's > > work on foreign language teaching, he talks a lot about the "second > signal > > system". There, are, however, two places in Vygotsky which MIGHT provide > > some support, if you wanted to make the case that the "second signal > > system" is not completely incompatible with Vygotsky. > > > > One is Chapter Two of the History of the Development of the Higher Mental > > functions. See below. Starting around paragraph 142, Vygotsky likens > > Pavlov's model of the brain as a telephone exchange. The problem, of > > course, is that back then telephone exchanges did require human operators > > to make the connection! > > > > The other is the discussion of "second order symbolism" in the work of > > Delacroix, which you can find in Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech and > > also in Chapter 7 of HDHMF (fifth para). This is a very different > > notion--it's the idea that writing is a set of symbols for speaking. > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > > > >From HDHMF, Chapter Two, Research Method > > > > We know that, as Pavlov says, ?the most general bases of higher nervous > > activity are ascribed to the large hemispheres, the same in both higher > > animals and in people, and for this reason even elementary phenomena of > > this activity must be identical in the one and in the other in both > normal > > and pathological cases? (1951, p. 15). Actually, this can scarcely be > > disputed. But as soon as we go from the elementary phenomena of higher > > nervous activity to the complex, to the higher phenomena within this > higher > > ? in the physiological sense ? activity, then two different > methodological > > paths for studying the specific uniqueness of human higher behavior open > > before us. > > > > One is the path to further study of complication, enrichment, and > > differentiation of the same phenomena that experimental study ascertains > in > > animals. Here, on this path, the greatest restraint must be observed. In > > transferring information on higher nervous activity of animals to higher > > activity of man, we must constantly check the factual similarities in the > > function of organs in man and animals, but in general the principle > itself > > of the research remains the same as it was in the study of animals. This > is > > the path of physiological study. > > > > True, this circumstance is of major significance and in the area of > > physiological study of behavior, in a comparative study of man and > animals, > > we must not put the function of the heart, stomach, and other organs > which > > are so similar to that of man on the same plane with higher nervous > > activity. In the words of I. P. Pavlov, ?It is specifically this activity > > that so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals, that places > man > > immeasurably above the whole animal world? (ibid. p. 414). And we might > > expect that along the path of physiological research we will find a > > specific qualitative difference in human activity. Let us recall the > words > > of Pavlov cited above on the quantitative and qualitative incomparability > > of the word with conditioned stimuli of animals. Even in the plan of > strict > > physiological consideration, ?the grandiose signalistics of speech? > stands > > outside the whole other mass of stimuli, the ?multicapaciousness of the > > word? places it in a unique position. > > > > The other path is the path of psychological research. From the very > > beginning, it proposes to seek the specific uniqueness of human behavior > > which does take us beyond the initial point. The specific uniqueness is > > considered not only in its subsequent complexity and development, > > quantitative and qualitative refinement of the cerebral hemispheres, but > > primarily in the social nature of man and in a new method of adaptation, > as > > compared with animals, that sets man apart. The main difference between > the > > behavior of man and of animals consists not only in that the human brain > is > > immeasurably above the brain of the dog and that the higher nervous > > activity ?so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals,? but > most > > of all, because it is the brain of a social being and because the laws of > > higher nervous activity of man are manifested and act in the human > > personality. > > > > But let us return again to the ?most general bases of higher nervous > > activity, related to the cerebral hemispheres,? and identical in higher > > animals and man. We think that it is in this point that we can disclose > > with definitive clarity the difference of which we speak. The most > general > > basis of behavior, identical in man and animals, is *signalization.* > Pavlov > > said, ?So the basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres > > is signaling with an infinite number of signals and with changeable > > signalization? (ibid., p. 30). As is known, this is the most general > > formulation of the whole idea of conditioned reflexes that lies at the > base > > of the physiology of higher nervous activity. > > > > But human behavior is distinguished exactly in that it creates artificial > > signaling stimuli, primarily the grandiose signalization of speech, and > in > > this way masters the signaling activity of the cerebral hemispheres. If > the > > basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres in animals > and > > in man is signalization, then the basic and most general activity of man > > that differentiates man from animals in the first place, from the aspect > of > > psychology, is *signification,* that is, creation and use of signs. We > are > > using this word in its most literal sense and precise meaning. > > Signification is the creation and use of signs, that is, artificial > > signals. > > > > We will consider more closely this new principle of activity. It must not > > in any sense be contrasted with the principle of signalization. > Changeable > > signalization that results in the formation of temporary, conditional, > > special connections between the organism and the environment is an > > indispensable, biological prerequisite of the higher activity that we > > arbitrarily call signification and is its base. The system of connections > > that is established in the brain of an animal is a copy or reflection of > > natural connections between ?all kinds of agents of nature? that signal > the > > arrival of immediately favorable or destructive phenomena. > > > > It is very obvious that such signalization ? a reflection of the natural > > connection of phenomena, wholly created by natural conditions ? cannot be > > an adequate basis of human behavior. For human adaptation, an active > > *change > > in the nature of man *is essential. It is the basis of all human history. > > It necessarily presupposes an active change in man?s behavior. ?Affecting > > the environment by this movement and changing it, he changes his own > nature > > at the same time,? says Marx. ?He develops forces asleep in it and > subjects > > the play of these forces to his own will? (K. Marx and F. Engels, > > *Collected > > Works,* Vol. 23, pp. 188-189 > > > 3A__www.marxists.org_archive_marx_works_1867-2Dc1_ch07.htm- > > 23forces&d=DQIFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r= > > mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=cxiDdHmIrHosSMq59vJlZ4j-S- > > 4h5DSiLaMzqzi2yNA&s=J3sZBxFP1DTk3B8MLGJTyEw-RZmpA347cJfMSUrwSa4&e= >). > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the > relevant > > > passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the other > > > sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been much > > > theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal > system. > > > I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not > just a > > > political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it hard > > to > > > imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking is > > > developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational > > > initiation-response) system of thinking. > > > > > > If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this > topic, > > > please don't hold back! > > > > > > Much obliged. > > > > > > In solidarity, > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come up > > with > > > > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his little > > book > > > > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. > > > > > > > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on "Speech > > > > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and > > > > Maltzman, *Handbook > > > > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. > > > > > > > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the late > > > > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were > > special > > > > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the use > of > > > > first and second signal system by Pavlov > > > > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and > > absolutely > > > > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say > > > > insensitivity) > > > > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could > use > > > > your > > > > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying to > > > locate > > > > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he refers > > to > > > > the > > > > > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal system > > as > > > > the > > > > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes > as > > > > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to the > > > > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is > particular > > > to > > > > > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis > that, > > > in > > > > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes > > *domesticated* > > > > by, > > > > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That is, > > the > > > > S-R > > > > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > > > > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a > > person > > > > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > > > > > > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point this > > > poor, > > > > > stumbling colleague > > > > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > > > > > > > > > Warm wishes to all, > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks > > to > > > > Mike > > > > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the > > opportunity > > > > for > > > > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas > in > > an > > > > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best to > > > raise > > > > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my participation > > in > > > > this > > > > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its > participants > > as > > > > is > > > > > humanly possible. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > Director, > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > Director, > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > Fordham University > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > -- > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > Director, > Office of Institutional Research > office_of_institutio/index.asp> > Fordham University > Thebaud Hall-202 > Bronx, NY 10458 > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Oct 29 14:28:13 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 08:28:13 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First*and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: <5814d218.45cf620a.84282.32f9@mx.google.com> References: <5814d218.45cf620a.84282.32f9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I'm working with two versions of one of Vygotsky's last lectures (the second version is given exactly five days before he was brought home with a throat haemorrhage to die, the first about a year earlier). There are passages that are almost word for word repetitions. There are passages that are semantically the same and but quite differently worded (the earlier Vygotsky is quite modest and tentative; the later Vygotsky is much more critical and also more confident). Then there are passages that say pretty much the opposite of what was said a year earlier: for example, in the early lecture Vygotsky says that a child faced with a chessboard who doesn't know how to play will see it structurally and sort the pieces by color (black pieces on black squares, white on white) but in the later lecture it is the child who does know how to play who sees it structurally, because the child sees a black knight in a "structure" with a white pawn. He's a genius, and geniuses tend to think things over a lot, turning them this way and that, and never looking at anything as final, not even when they are about to die. HDHMF has to be read the same way. Vygotsky cannot quite seem to make up his mind whether there are three stages of higher behavior (instinct, habit, intelligence) or four different stages of higher behavior (instinct, habit, intelligence, and freedom). In Chapter Four, he very clearly argues for four or more, but in Chapter Five, which may have been written much earlier, he argues for three but then three paragraphs later considers it safer to begin as Thorndike does with two levels (unconditional and conditional responses). So "signal" vs. "signification" could just be seen as the difference between unconditional and conditional responses, or it could be seen as the difference between instinct and intelligence, or it could be seen as two poles with an almost infinite number of genetic variations in between. I prefer the latter view, but I recognize that Vygotsky has to package things pretty differently for different audiences, and we are not one of the audiences that he has foremost in his mind. Take bacteria. Bacteria are apparently capable of quorum sensing: that is, bacteria don't multiply when there are no other bacteria around, they do when there are some but not too many, and they don't when there are too many. Now, take ants. Ants have a system of finding new nests that involves scouting for potential sites. If the site is extremely good, they go back and take other ants there quickly, but if it is not so good they tend to dawdle a little, with the result that the best site gets more ants, and at a certain point the whole nest "decides" to move there. Now, take bees. Like ants, bees go scouting. The scouts come back and they dance; the dances attract more or fewer onlookers, and when a quorum is reached, the hive moves. It seems to me that ALL of these are signalization systems (not signifying systems, because they do not have lexicogrammar and cannot convey ideal values) but the difference between the ant system and the bee system is as big as the difference between the bee system and early child language. For ants, the scouting and decision making are not differentiated, but for bees they are distinct moments--so the ant system involves a simple signal system and the bee system involves a second signal system. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 3:45 AM, wrote: > In this discussion The center of this relational exploration is between > signalization AND signification and my question goes back to the place of > the general term *gesturing*. > Is this signalization or is this phenomena signification. > The act creating actual*ity (sens) which always includes tendency or > orientation towards or away from something. > The act is gestural acts and implies *each in the other*. > > The relation of gestural receiving and responding and this phenomena in > relation to signalization and signification. > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Huw Lloyd > Sent: October 29, 2016 9:01 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to > *First*and *Second* Signal Systems > > Peter, > > If by signalisation you mean use of signs to influence behaviour in terms > of operational criteria and speech, then yes this is so. It has been > studied quite systematically, but is perhaps less well known. I can > elaborate on this if this is your drift. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 28 October 2016 at 22:43, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > David, > > > > As usual, your suggestions are both helpful and erudite. Thanks for the > > poignant references to Vygotsky and to Marx. Although Soviet academic > > politics may have complicated the issue, there does seem to be some > > substance to the argument that the nervous systems of animals and the > > speech communication systems of humans share the common property of > > *signalization*. Personally, I think there's a lot more to this topic > than > > meets the eye--or, better yet, there's a lot of opportunity here for > > developing the problem further. > > > > Once again, I owe an intellectual debt to the participants of this > > listserv! > > > > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:10 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Peter: > > > > > > I think Mike's right. The "second signal system" was an attempt to > > preserve > > > the idea of higher psychological functions in an atmosphere that was > not > > > that different from what was going on in America at the same time (and > > > which Mike experienced first hand in both places). When I read > Belyayev's > > > work on foreign language teaching, he talks a lot about the "second > > signal > > > system". There, are, however, two places in Vygotsky which MIGHT > provide > > > some support, if you wanted to make the case that the "second signal > > > system" is not completely incompatible with Vygotsky. > > > > > > One is Chapter Two of the History of the Development of the Higher > Mental > > > functions. See below. Starting around paragraph 142, Vygotsky likens > > > Pavlov's model of the brain as a telephone exchange. The problem, of > > > course, is that back then telephone exchanges did require human > operators > > > to make the connection! > > > > > > The other is the discussion of "second order symbolism" in the work of > > > Delacroix, which you can find in Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech and > > > also in Chapter 7 of HDHMF (fifth para). This is a very different > > > notion--it's the idea that writing is a set of symbols for speaking. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > >From HDHMF, Chapter Two, Research Method > > > > > > We know that, as Pavlov says, ?the most general bases of higher nervous > > > activity are ascribed to the large hemispheres, the same in both higher > > > animals and in people, and for this reason even elementary phenomena of > > > this activity must be identical in the one and in the other in both > > normal > > > and pathological cases? (1951, p. 15). Actually, this can scarcely be > > > disputed. But as soon as we go from the elementary phenomena of higher > > > nervous activity to the complex, to the higher phenomena within this > > higher > > > ? in the physiological sense ? activity, then two different > > methodological > > > paths for studying the specific uniqueness of human higher behavior > open > > > before us. > > > > > > One is the path to further study of complication, enrichment, and > > > differentiation of the same phenomena that experimental study > ascertains > > in > > > animals. Here, on this path, the greatest restraint must be observed. > In > > > transferring information on higher nervous activity of animals to > higher > > > activity of man, we must constantly check the factual similarities in > the > > > function of organs in man and animals, but in general the principle > > itself > > > of the research remains the same as it was in the study of animals. > This > > is > > > the path of physiological study. > > > > > > True, this circumstance is of major significance and in the area of > > > physiological study of behavior, in a comparative study of man and > > animals, > > > we must not put the function of the heart, stomach, and other organs > > which > > > are so similar to that of man on the same plane with higher nervous > > > activity. In the words of I. P. Pavlov, ?It is specifically this > activity > > > that so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals, that places > > man > > > immeasurably above the whole animal world? (ibid. p. 414). And we might > > > expect that along the path of physiological research we will find a > > > specific qualitative difference in human activity. Let us recall the > > words > > > of Pavlov cited above on the quantitative and qualitative > incomparability > > > of the word with conditioned stimuli of animals. Even in the plan of > > strict > > > physiological consideration, ?the grandiose signalistics of speech? > > stands > > > outside the whole other mass of stimuli, the ?multicapaciousness of the > > > word? places it in a unique position. > > > > > > The other path is the path of psychological research. From the very > > > beginning, it proposes to seek the specific uniqueness of human > behavior > > > which does take us beyond the initial point. The specific uniqueness is > > > considered not only in its subsequent complexity and development, > > > quantitative and qualitative refinement of the cerebral hemispheres, > but > > > primarily in the social nature of man and in a new method of > adaptation, > > as > > > compared with animals, that sets man apart. The main difference between > > the > > > behavior of man and of animals consists not only in that the human > brain > > is > > > immeasurably above the brain of the dog and that the higher nervous > > > activity ?so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals,? but > > most > > > of all, because it is the brain of a social being and because the laws > of > > > higher nervous activity of man are manifested and act in the human > > > personality. > > > > > > But let us return again to the ?most general bases of higher nervous > > > activity, related to the cerebral hemispheres,? and identical in higher > > > animals and man. We think that it is in this point that we can disclose > > > with definitive clarity the difference of which we speak. The most > > general > > > basis of behavior, identical in man and animals, is *signalization.* > > Pavlov > > > said, ?So the basic and most general activity of the cerebral > hemispheres > > > is signaling with an infinite number of signals and with changeable > > > signalization? (ibid., p. 30). As is known, this is the most general > > > formulation of the whole idea of conditioned reflexes that lies at the > > base > > > of the physiology of higher nervous activity. > > > > > > But human behavior is distinguished exactly in that it creates > artificial > > > signaling stimuli, primarily the grandiose signalization of speech, and > > in > > > this way masters the signaling activity of the cerebral hemispheres. If > > the > > > basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres in animals > > and > > > in man is signalization, then the basic and most general activity of > man > > > that differentiates man from animals in the first place, from the > aspect > > of > > > psychology, is *signification,* that is, creation and use of signs. We > > are > > > using this word in its most literal sense and precise meaning. > > > Signification is the creation and use of signs, that is, artificial > > > signals. > > > > > > We will consider more closely this new principle of activity. It must > not > > > in any sense be contrasted with the principle of signalization. > > Changeable > > > signalization that results in the formation of temporary, conditional, > > > special connections between the organism and the environment is an > > > indispensable, biological prerequisite of the higher activity that we > > > arbitrarily call signification and is its base. The system of > connections > > > that is established in the brain of an animal is a copy or reflection > of > > > natural connections between ?all kinds of agents of nature? that signal > > the > > > arrival of immediately favorable or destructive phenomena. > > > > > > It is very obvious that such signalization ? a reflection of the > natural > > > connection of phenomena, wholly created by natural conditions ? cannot > be > > > an adequate basis of human behavior. For human adaptation, an active > > > *change > > > in the nature of man *is essential. It is the basis of all human > history. > > > It necessarily presupposes an active change in man?s behavior. > ?Affecting > > > the environment by this movement and changing it, he changes his own > > nature > > > at the same time,? says Marx. ?He develops forces asleep in it and > > subjects > > > the play of these forces to his own will? (K. Marx and F. Engels, > > > *Collected > > > Works,* Vol. 23, pp. 188-189 > > > > > 3A__www.marxists.org_archive_marx_works_1867-2Dc1_ch07.htm- > > > 23forces&d=DQIFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r= > > > mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m= > cxiDdHmIrHosSMq59vJlZ4j-S- > > > 4h5DSiLaMzqzi2yNA&s=J3sZBxFP1DTk3B8MLGJTyEw-RZmpA347cJfMSUrwSa4&e= >). > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the > > relevant > > > > passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the > other > > > > sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been much > > > > theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal > > system. > > > > I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not > > just a > > > > political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it > hard > > > to > > > > imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking is > > > > developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational > > > > initiation-response) system of thinking. > > > > > > > > If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this > > topic, > > > > please don't hold back! > > > > > > > > Much obliged. > > > > > > > > In solidarity, > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come up > > > with > > > > > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his > little > > > book > > > > > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. > > > > > > > > > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on "Speech > > > > > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and > > > > > Maltzman, *Handbook > > > > > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. > > > > > > > > > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the > late > > > > > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were > > > special > > > > > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the > use > > of > > > > > first and second signal system by Pavlov > > > > > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and > > > absolutely > > > > > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say > > > > > insensitivity) > > > > > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure could > > use > > > > > your > > > > > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying > to > > > > locate > > > > > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he > refers > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal > system > > > as > > > > > the > > > > > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of reflexes > > as > > > > > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to > the > > > > > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is > > particular > > > > to > > > > > > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis > > that, > > > > in > > > > > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes > > > *domesticated* > > > > > by, > > > > > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That > is, > > > the > > > > > S-R > > > > > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > > > > > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of a > > > person > > > > > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > > > > > > > > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point > this > > > > poor, > > > > > > stumbling colleague > > > > > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Warm wishes to all, > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt > thanks > > > to > > > > > Mike > > > > > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the > > > opportunity > > > > > for > > > > > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our ideas > > in > > > an > > > > > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level best > to > > > > raise > > > > > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my > participation > > > in > > > > > this > > > > > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its > > participants > > > as > > > > > is > > > > > > humanly possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > > Director, > > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > Director, > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > Fordham University > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > Director, > > Office of Institutional Research > > > office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > Fordham University > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Oct 29 15:43:44 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 23:43:44 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First*and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: <5814d218.45cf620a.84282.32f9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: One approach would be to look to studying the signalling in terms of serial and parallel circuits. If you find serial systems that organise the parallel ones then maybe you have two fairly obvious levels in play. Assuming the correctness of this description of these species, one can also consider the desirability to retain some features of the decision making process in analog form, e.g. if vulnerability to predators is a high risk then its good to have this in high fidelity, i.e. make it part of the map upon which the pieces are moved. Its also often the case that you can trade-off or translate between spatial and temporal representations. I believe your are right to distinguish a moment of digital exchange (the bees) within the system, but this is not necessarily indicative of being more sophisticated. Reflexivity may be considered a more enriched decision making process that an ideal patterned on a discrete reflection. Within the mathematical/systems space, there have been interesting approaches to studying quorums. In Stafford Beer's VSM, there is situated a large quorum existing between the autonomics of a (recursive) system component and its future-oriented intelligence along the lines of an action-operation split. I have clear memories from when I learned to play chess (maybe 5 yrs). I had taken up the notion of "surrounding" as checkmate and then proceeded to explain this to my older brother in terms of a maze-like structure. Soon after, my father cut out an L-shape from the cover of one of his books, an Azimov novel I think. I don't horde things, but it would have been nice to still have that memento. Best, Huw On 29 October 2016 at 22:28, David Kellogg wrote: > I'm working with two versions of one of Vygotsky's last lectures (the > second version is given exactly five days before he was brought home with a > throat haemorrhage to die, the first about a year earlier). There are > passages that are almost word for word repetitions. There are passages that > are semantically the same and but quite differently worded (the earlier > Vygotsky is quite modest and tentative; the later Vygotsky is much more > critical and also more confident). Then there are passages that say pretty > much the opposite of what was said a year earlier: for example, in the > early lecture Vygotsky says that a child faced with a chessboard who > doesn't know how to play will see it structurally and sort the pieces by > color (black pieces on black squares, white on white) but in the later > lecture it is the child who does know how to play who sees it structurally, > because the child sees a black knight in a "structure" with a white pawn. > He's a genius, and geniuses tend to think things over a lot, turning them > this way and that, and never looking at anything as final, not even when > they are about to die. > > HDHMF has to be read the same way. Vygotsky cannot quite seem to make up > his mind whether there are three stages of higher behavior (instinct, > habit, intelligence) or four different stages of higher behavior (instinct, > habit, intelligence, and freedom). In Chapter Four, he very clearly argues > for four or more, but in Chapter Five, which may have been written much > earlier, he argues for three but then three paragraphs later considers it > safer to begin as Thorndike does with two levels (unconditional and > conditional responses). So "signal" vs. "signification" could just be seen > as the difference between unconditional and conditional responses, or it > could be seen as the difference between instinct and intelligence, or it > could be seen as two poles with an almost infinite number of genetic > variations in between. I prefer the latter view, but I recognize that > Vygotsky has to package things pretty differently for different audiences, > and we are not one of the audiences that he has foremost in his mind. > > Take bacteria. Bacteria are apparently capable of quorum sensing: that is, > bacteria don't multiply when there are no other bacteria around, they do > when there are some but not too many, and they don't when there are too > many. Now, take ants. Ants have a system of finding new nests that involves > scouting for potential sites. If the site is extremely good, they go back > and take other ants there quickly, but if it is not so good they tend to > dawdle a little, with the result that the best site gets more ants, and at > a certain point the whole nest "decides" to move there. Now, take > bees. Like ants, bees go scouting. The scouts come back and they dance; the > dances attract more or fewer onlookers, and when a quorum is reached, the > hive moves. It seems to me that ALL of these are signalization systems (not > signifying systems, because they do not have lexicogrammar and cannot > convey ideal values) but the difference between the ant system and the bee > system is as big as the difference between the bee system and early child > language. For ants, the scouting and decision making are not > differentiated, but for bees they are distinct moments--so the ant system > involves a simple signal system and the bee system involves a second signal > system. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 3:45 AM, wrote: > > > In this discussion The center of this relational exploration is between > > signalization AND signification and my question goes back to the place of > > the general term *gesturing*. > > Is this signalization or is this phenomena signification. > > The act creating actual*ity (sens) which always includes tendency or > > orientation towards or away from something. > > The act is gestural acts and implies *each in the other*. > > > > The relation of gestural receiving and responding and this phenomena in > > relation to signalization and signification. > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > From: Huw Lloyd > > Sent: October 29, 2016 9:01 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to > > *First*and *Second* Signal Systems > > > > Peter, > > > > If by signalisation you mean use of signs to influence behaviour in terms > > of operational criteria and speech, then yes this is so. It has been > > studied quite systematically, but is perhaps less well known. I can > > elaborate on this if this is your drift. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > On 28 October 2016 at 22:43, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > David, > > > > > > As usual, your suggestions are both helpful and erudite. Thanks for > the > > > poignant references to Vygotsky and to Marx. Although Soviet academic > > > politics may have complicated the issue, there does seem to be some > > > substance to the argument that the nervous systems of animals and the > > > speech communication systems of humans share the common property of > > > *signalization*. Personally, I think there's a lot more to this topic > > than > > > meets the eye--or, better yet, there's a lot of opportunity here for > > > developing the problem further. > > > > > > Once again, I owe an intellectual debt to the participants of this > > > listserv! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:10 PM, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Peter: > > > > > > > > I think Mike's right. The "second signal system" was an attempt to > > > preserve > > > > the idea of higher psychological functions in an atmosphere that was > > not > > > > that different from what was going on in America at the same time > (and > > > > which Mike experienced first hand in both places). When I read > > Belyayev's > > > > work on foreign language teaching, he talks a lot about the "second > > > signal > > > > system". There, are, however, two places in Vygotsky which MIGHT > > provide > > > > some support, if you wanted to make the case that the "second signal > > > > system" is not completely incompatible with Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > One is Chapter Two of the History of the Development of the Higher > > Mental > > > > functions. See below. Starting around paragraph 142, Vygotsky likens > > > > Pavlov's model of the brain as a telephone exchange. The problem, of > > > > course, is that back then telephone exchanges did require human > > operators > > > > to make the connection! > > > > > > > > The other is the discussion of "second order symbolism" in the work > of > > > > Delacroix, which you can find in Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech > and > > > > also in Chapter 7 of HDHMF (fifth para). This is a very different > > > > notion--it's the idea that writing is a set of symbols for speaking. > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > >From HDHMF, Chapter Two, Research Method > > > > > > > > We know that, as Pavlov says, ?the most general bases of higher > nervous > > > > activity are ascribed to the large hemispheres, the same in both > higher > > > > animals and in people, and for this reason even elementary phenomena > of > > > > this activity must be identical in the one and in the other in both > > > normal > > > > and pathological cases? (1951, p. 15). Actually, this can scarcely be > > > > disputed. But as soon as we go from the elementary phenomena of > higher > > > > nervous activity to the complex, to the higher phenomena within this > > > higher > > > > ? in the physiological sense ? activity, then two different > > > methodological > > > > paths for studying the specific uniqueness of human higher behavior > > open > > > > before us. > > > > > > > > One is the path to further study of complication, enrichment, and > > > > differentiation of the same phenomena that experimental study > > ascertains > > > in > > > > animals. Here, on this path, the greatest restraint must be observed. > > In > > > > transferring information on higher nervous activity of animals to > > higher > > > > activity of man, we must constantly check the factual similarities in > > the > > > > function of organs in man and animals, but in general the principle > > > itself > > > > of the research remains the same as it was in the study of animals. > > This > > > is > > > > the path of physiological study. > > > > > > > > True, this circumstance is of major significance and in the area of > > > > physiological study of behavior, in a comparative study of man and > > > animals, > > > > we must not put the function of the heart, stomach, and other organs > > > which > > > > are so similar to that of man on the same plane with higher nervous > > > > activity. In the words of I. P. Pavlov, ?It is specifically this > > activity > > > > that so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals, that > places > > > man > > > > immeasurably above the whole animal world? (ibid. p. 414). And we > might > > > > expect that along the path of physiological research we will find a > > > > specific qualitative difference in human activity. Let us recall the > > > words > > > > of Pavlov cited above on the quantitative and qualitative > > incomparability > > > > of the word with conditioned stimuli of animals. Even in the plan of > > > strict > > > > physiological consideration, ?the grandiose signalistics of speech? > > > stands > > > > outside the whole other mass of stimuli, the ?multicapaciousness of > the > > > > word? places it in a unique position. > > > > > > > > The other path is the path of psychological research. From the very > > > > beginning, it proposes to seek the specific uniqueness of human > > behavior > > > > which does take us beyond the initial point. The specific uniqueness > is > > > > considered not only in its subsequent complexity and development, > > > > quantitative and qualitative refinement of the cerebral hemispheres, > > but > > > > primarily in the social nature of man and in a new method of > > adaptation, > > > as > > > > compared with animals, that sets man apart. The main difference > between > > > the > > > > behavior of man and of animals consists not only in that the human > > brain > > > is > > > > immeasurably above the brain of the dog and that the higher nervous > > > > activity ?so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals,? but > > > most > > > > of all, because it is the brain of a social being and because the > laws > > of > > > > higher nervous activity of man are manifested and act in the human > > > > personality. > > > > > > > > But let us return again to the ?most general bases of higher nervous > > > > activity, related to the cerebral hemispheres,? and identical in > higher > > > > animals and man. We think that it is in this point that we can > disclose > > > > with definitive clarity the difference of which we speak. The most > > > general > > > > basis of behavior, identical in man and animals, is *signalization.* > > > Pavlov > > > > said, ?So the basic and most general activity of the cerebral > > hemispheres > > > > is signaling with an infinite number of signals and with changeable > > > > signalization? (ibid., p. 30). As is known, this is the most general > > > > formulation of the whole idea of conditioned reflexes that lies at > the > > > base > > > > of the physiology of higher nervous activity. > > > > > > > > But human behavior is distinguished exactly in that it creates > > artificial > > > > signaling stimuli, primarily the grandiose signalization of speech, > and > > > in > > > > this way masters the signaling activity of the cerebral hemispheres. > If > > > the > > > > basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres in > animals > > > and > > > > in man is signalization, then the basic and most general activity of > > man > > > > that differentiates man from animals in the first place, from the > > aspect > > > of > > > > psychology, is *signification,* that is, creation and use of signs. > We > > > are > > > > using this word in its most literal sense and precise meaning. > > > > Signification is the creation and use of signs, that is, artificial > > > > signals. > > > > > > > > We will consider more closely this new principle of activity. It must > > not > > > > in any sense be contrasted with the principle of signalization. > > > Changeable > > > > signalization that results in the formation of temporary, > conditional, > > > > special connections between the organism and the environment is an > > > > indispensable, biological prerequisite of the higher activity that we > > > > arbitrarily call signification and is its base. The system of > > connections > > > > that is established in the brain of an animal is a copy or reflection > > of > > > > natural connections between ?all kinds of agents of nature? that > signal > > > the > > > > arrival of immediately favorable or destructive phenomena. > > > > > > > > It is very obvious that such signalization ? a reflection of the > > natural > > > > connection of phenomena, wholly created by natural conditions ? > cannot > > be > > > > an adequate basis of human behavior. For human adaptation, an active > > > > *change > > > > in the nature of man *is essential. It is the basis of all human > > history. > > > > It necessarily presupposes an active change in man?s behavior. > > ?Affecting > > > > the environment by this movement and changing it, he changes his own > > > nature > > > > at the same time,? says Marx. ?He develops forces asleep in it and > > > subjects > > > > the play of these forces to his own will? (K. Marx and F. Engels, > > > > *Collected > > > > Works,* Vol. 23, pp. 188-189 > > > > > > > 3A__www.marxists.org_archive_marx_works_1867-2Dc1_ch07.htm- > > > > 23forces&d=DQIFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r= > > > > mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m= > > cxiDdHmIrHosSMq59vJlZ4j-S- > > > > 4h5DSiLaMzqzi2yNA&s=J3sZBxFP1DTk3B8MLGJTyEw-RZmpA347cJfMSUrwSa4&e= > >). > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the > > > relevant > > > > > passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the > > other > > > > > sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been > much > > > > > theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal > > > system. > > > > > I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not > > > just a > > > > > political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it > > hard > > > > to > > > > > imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking is > > > > > developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational > > > > > initiation-response) system of thinking. > > > > > > > > > > If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this > > > topic, > > > > > please don't hold back! > > > > > > > > > > Much obliged. > > > > > > > > > > In solidarity, > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come > up > > > > with > > > > > > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his > > little > > > > book > > > > > > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on > "Speech > > > > > > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and > > > > > > Maltzman, *Handbook > > > > > > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the > > late > > > > > > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were > > > > special > > > > > > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the > > use > > > of > > > > > > first and second signal system by Pavlov > > > > > > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. > > > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and > > > > absolutely > > > > > > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say > > > > > > insensitivity) > > > > > > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure > could > > > use > > > > > > your > > > > > > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying > > to > > > > > locate > > > > > > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he > > refers > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal > > system > > > > as > > > > > > the > > > > > > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of > reflexes > > > as > > > > > > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to > > the > > > > > > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is > > > particular > > > > > to > > > > > > > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis > > > that, > > > > > in > > > > > > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes > > > > *domesticated* > > > > > > by, > > > > > > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That > > is, > > > > the > > > > > > S-R > > > > > > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > > > > > > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of > a > > > > person > > > > > > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point > > this > > > > > poor, > > > > > > > stumbling colleague > > > > > > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warm wishes to all, > > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt > > thanks > > > > to > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the > > > > opportunity > > > > > > for > > > > > > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our > ideas > > > in > > > > an > > > > > > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level > best > > to > > > > > raise > > > > > > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my > > participation > > > > in > > > > > > this > > > > > > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its > > > participants > > > > as > > > > > > is > > > > > > > humanly possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > > > Director, > > > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > Director, > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > Director, > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > Fordham University > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Oct 29 15:42:18 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 15:42:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First*and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: <5814d218.45cf620a.84282.32f9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: It seems that side-by-side translations of the two documents merit archival publication, David. JREEP is an obvious repository. In addition to which at present we have a good deal more evidence about children, chess boards, and the issues vexing Vygotsky than he had access to. The non/difficult chronology of the texts complicates an already complicated process of interpretation as we have long witnessed here. Perhaps as a separate thread, it would be nice to put together a discussion of the core linkages between Vygotsky and Halliday in your work..... one of those chains of discussion that come and go. Perhaps a mini-course devoted to the following, to me, essential idea: It seems to me that ALL of these are signalization systems (not signifying systems, because they do not have lexicogrammar and cannot convey ideal values) Providing a "cheat sheet" for autodidacts, might it be possible to create some "field of interest" in the xmca discussion for dealing with this idea? I have in no way forgotten the issue of the relation of microgenesis and ontogenesis. It seems another "key point" as most of us go about using CHAT ideas in the course of the teaching/learning activities that pay the bread and butter. As matters stand, I offer Franklin in the blocks as an example of microgenesis in a preschool classroom involving play as an example of a zone of proximal development where childre are a head taller than themselves. That discussion is for the microgenesis/ontogenesis thread if I recall. I would be VERY interested to learn of ways that feminist, queer theory, critical disability studies theory, neurodiversity theory, and others can help me to understand these categories and the theories that purport to account for them. If they need to be re-thought, might as well be here. Ain't goin nowhere. mike On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 2:28 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > I'm working with two versions of one of Vygotsky's last lectures (the > second version is given exactly five days before he was brought home with a > throat haemorrhage to die, the first about a year earlier). There are > passages that are almost word for word repetitions. There are passages that > are semantically the same and but quite differently worded (the earlier > Vygotsky is quite modest and tentative; the later Vygotsky is much more > critical and also more confident). Then there are passages that say pretty > much the opposite of what was said a year earlier: for example, in the > early lecture Vygotsky says that a child faced with a chessboard who > doesn't know how to play will see it structurally and sort the pieces by > color (black pieces on black squares, white on white) but in the later > lecture it is the child who does know how to play who sees it structurally, > because the child sees a black knight in a "structure" with a white pawn. > He's a genius, and geniuses tend to think things over a lot, turning them > this way and that, and never looking at anything as final, not even when > they are about to die. > > HDHMF has to be read the same way. Vygotsky cannot quite seem to make up > his mind whether there are three stages of higher behavior (instinct, > habit, intelligence) or four different stages of higher behavior (instinct, > habit, intelligence, and freedom). In Chapter Four, he very clearly argues > for four or more, but in Chapter Five, which may have been written much > earlier, he argues for three but then three paragraphs later considers it > safer to begin as Thorndike does with two levels (unconditional and > conditional responses). So "signal" vs. "signification" could just be seen > as the difference between unconditional and conditional responses, or it > could be seen as the difference between instinct and intelligence, or it > could be seen as two poles with an almost infinite number of genetic > variations in between. I prefer the latter view, but I recognize that > Vygotsky has to package things pretty differently for different audiences, > and we are not one of the audiences that he has foremost in his mind. > > Take bacteria. Bacteria are apparently capable of quorum sensing: that is, > bacteria don't multiply when there are no other bacteria around, they do > when there are some but not too many, and they don't when there are too > many. Now, take ants. Ants have a system of finding new nests that involves > scouting for potential sites. If the site is extremely good, they go back > and take other ants there quickly, but if it is not so good they tend to > dawdle a little, with the result that the best site gets more ants, and at > a certain point the whole nest "decides" to move there. Now, take > bees. Like ants, bees go scouting. The scouts come back and they dance; the > dances attract more or fewer onlookers, and when a quorum is reached, the > hive moves. It seems to me that ALL of these are signalization systems (not > signifying systems, because they do not have lexicogrammar and cannot > convey ideal values) but the difference between the ant system and the bee > system is as big as the difference between the bee system and early child > language. For ants, the scouting and decision making are not > differentiated, but for bees they are distinct moments--so the ant system > involves a simple signal system and the bee system involves a second signal > system. > > David Kellogg > Macquarie University > > On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 3:45 AM, wrote: > > > In this discussion The center of this relational exploration is between > > signalization AND signification and my question goes back to the place of > > the general term *gesturing*. > > Is this signalization or is this phenomena signification. > > The act creating actual*ity (sens) which always includes tendency or > > orientation towards or away from something. > > The act is gestural acts and implies *each in the other*. > > > > The relation of gestural receiving and responding and this phenomena in > > relation to signalization and signification. > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > From: Huw Lloyd > > Sent: October 29, 2016 9:01 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to > > *First*and *Second* Signal Systems > > > > Peter, > > > > If by signalisation you mean use of signs to influence behaviour in terms > > of operational criteria and speech, then yes this is so. It has been > > studied quite systematically, but is perhaps less well known. I can > > elaborate on this if this is your drift. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > On 28 October 2016 at 22:43, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > David, > > > > > > As usual, your suggestions are both helpful and erudite. Thanks for > the > > > poignant references to Vygotsky and to Marx. Although Soviet academic > > > politics may have complicated the issue, there does seem to be some > > > substance to the argument that the nervous systems of animals and the > > > speech communication systems of humans share the common property of > > > *signalization*. Personally, I think there's a lot more to this topic > > than > > > meets the eye--or, better yet, there's a lot of opportunity here for > > > developing the problem further. > > > > > > Once again, I owe an intellectual debt to the participants of this > > > listserv! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:10 PM, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Peter: > > > > > > > > I think Mike's right. The "second signal system" was an attempt to > > > preserve > > > > the idea of higher psychological functions in an atmosphere that was > > not > > > > that different from what was going on in America at the same time > (and > > > > which Mike experienced first hand in both places). When I read > > Belyayev's > > > > work on foreign language teaching, he talks a lot about the "second > > > signal > > > > system". There, are, however, two places in Vygotsky which MIGHT > > provide > > > > some support, if you wanted to make the case that the "second signal > > > > system" is not completely incompatible with Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > One is Chapter Two of the History of the Development of the Higher > > Mental > > > > functions. See below. Starting around paragraph 142, Vygotsky likens > > > > Pavlov's model of the brain as a telephone exchange. The problem, of > > > > course, is that back then telephone exchanges did require human > > operators > > > > to make the connection! > > > > > > > > The other is the discussion of "second order symbolism" in the work > of > > > > Delacroix, which you can find in Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech > and > > > > also in Chapter 7 of HDHMF (fifth para). This is a very different > > > > notion--it's the idea that writing is a set of symbols for speaking. > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > >From HDHMF, Chapter Two, Research Method > > > > > > > > We know that, as Pavlov says, ?the most general bases of higher > nervous > > > > activity are ascribed to the large hemispheres, the same in both > higher > > > > animals and in people, and for this reason even elementary phenomena > of > > > > this activity must be identical in the one and in the other in both > > > normal > > > > and pathological cases? (1951, p. 15). Actually, this can scarcely be > > > > disputed. But as soon as we go from the elementary phenomena of > higher > > > > nervous activity to the complex, to the higher phenomena within this > > > higher > > > > ? in the physiological sense ? activity, then two different > > > methodological > > > > paths for studying the specific uniqueness of human higher behavior > > open > > > > before us. > > > > > > > > One is the path to further study of complication, enrichment, and > > > > differentiation of the same phenomena that experimental study > > ascertains > > > in > > > > animals. Here, on this path, the greatest restraint must be observed. > > In > > > > transferring information on higher nervous activity of animals to > > higher > > > > activity of man, we must constantly check the factual similarities in > > the > > > > function of organs in man and animals, but in general the principle > > > itself > > > > of the research remains the same as it was in the study of animals. > > This > > > is > > > > the path of physiological study. > > > > > > > > True, this circumstance is of major significance and in the area of > > > > physiological study of behavior, in a comparative study of man and > > > animals, > > > > we must not put the function of the heart, stomach, and other organs > > > which > > > > are so similar to that of man on the same plane with higher nervous > > > > activity. In the words of I. P. Pavlov, ?It is specifically this > > activity > > > > that so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals, that > places > > > man > > > > immeasurably above the whole animal world? (ibid. p. 414). And we > might > > > > expect that along the path of physiological research we will find a > > > > specific qualitative difference in human activity. Let us recall the > > > words > > > > of Pavlov cited above on the quantitative and qualitative > > incomparability > > > > of the word with conditioned stimuli of animals. Even in the plan of > > > strict > > > > physiological consideration, ?the grandiose signalistics of speech? > > > stands > > > > outside the whole other mass of stimuli, the ?multicapaciousness of > the > > > > word? places it in a unique position. > > > > > > > > The other path is the path of psychological research. From the very > > > > beginning, it proposes to seek the specific uniqueness of human > > behavior > > > > which does take us beyond the initial point. The specific uniqueness > is > > > > considered not only in its subsequent complexity and development, > > > > quantitative and qualitative refinement of the cerebral hemispheres, > > but > > > > primarily in the social nature of man and in a new method of > > adaptation, > > > as > > > > compared with animals, that sets man apart. The main difference > between > > > the > > > > behavior of man and of animals consists not only in that the human > > brain > > > is > > > > immeasurably above the brain of the dog and that the higher nervous > > > > activity ?so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals,? but > > > most > > > > of all, because it is the brain of a social being and because the > laws > > of > > > > higher nervous activity of man are manifested and act in the human > > > > personality. > > > > > > > > But let us return again to the ?most general bases of higher nervous > > > > activity, related to the cerebral hemispheres,? and identical in > higher > > > > animals and man. We think that it is in this point that we can > disclose > > > > with definitive clarity the difference of which we speak. The most > > > general > > > > basis of behavior, identical in man and animals, is *signalization.* > > > Pavlov > > > > said, ?So the basic and most general activity of the cerebral > > hemispheres > > > > is signaling with an infinite number of signals and with changeable > > > > signalization? (ibid., p. 30). As is known, this is the most general > > > > formulation of the whole idea of conditioned reflexes that lies at > the > > > base > > > > of the physiology of higher nervous activity. > > > > > > > > But human behavior is distinguished exactly in that it creates > > artificial > > > > signaling stimuli, primarily the grandiose signalization of speech, > and > > > in > > > > this way masters the signaling activity of the cerebral hemispheres. > If > > > the > > > > basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres in > animals > > > and > > > > in man is signalization, then the basic and most general activity of > > man > > > > that differentiates man from animals in the first place, from the > > aspect > > > of > > > > psychology, is *signification,* that is, creation and use of signs. > We > > > are > > > > using this word in its most literal sense and precise meaning. > > > > Signification is the creation and use of signs, that is, artificial > > > > signals. > > > > > > > > We will consider more closely this new principle of activity. It must > > not > > > > in any sense be contrasted with the principle of signalization. > > > Changeable > > > > signalization that results in the formation of temporary, > conditional, > > > > special connections between the organism and the environment is an > > > > indispensable, biological prerequisite of the higher activity that we > > > > arbitrarily call signification and is its base. The system of > > connections > > > > that is established in the brain of an animal is a copy or reflection > > of > > > > natural connections between ?all kinds of agents of nature? that > signal > > > the > > > > arrival of immediately favorable or destructive phenomena. > > > > > > > > It is very obvious that such signalization ? a reflection of the > > natural > > > > connection of phenomena, wholly created by natural conditions ? > cannot > > be > > > > an adequate basis of human behavior. For human adaptation, an active > > > > *change > > > > in the nature of man *is essential. It is the basis of all human > > history. > > > > It necessarily presupposes an active change in man?s behavior. > > ?Affecting > > > > the environment by this movement and changing it, he changes his own > > > nature > > > > at the same time,? says Marx. ?He develops forces asleep in it and > > > subjects > > > > the play of these forces to his own will? (K. Marx and F. Engels, > > > > *Collected > > > > Works,* Vol. 23, pp. 188-189 > > > > > > > 3A__www.marxists.org_archive_marx_works_1867-2Dc1_ch07.htm- > > > > 23forces&d=DQIFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r= > > > > mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m= > > cxiDdHmIrHosSMq59vJlZ4j-S- > > > > 4h5DSiLaMzqzi2yNA&s=J3sZBxFP1DTk3B8MLGJTyEw-RZmpA347cJfMSUrwSa4&e= > >). > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the > > > relevant > > > > > passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the > > other > > > > > sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been > much > > > > > theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal > > > system. > > > > > I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not > > > just a > > > > > political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it > > hard > > > > to > > > > > imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking is > > > > > developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational > > > > > initiation-response) system of thinking. > > > > > > > > > > If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this > > > topic, > > > > > please don't hold back! > > > > > > > > > > Much obliged. > > > > > > > > > > In solidarity, > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will come > up > > > > with > > > > > > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his > > little > > > > book > > > > > > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on > "Speech > > > > > > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and > > > > > > Maltzman, *Handbook > > > > > > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the > > late > > > > > > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there were > > > > special > > > > > > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the > > use > > > of > > > > > > first and second signal system by Pavlov > > > > > > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. > > > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and > > > > absolutely > > > > > > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say > > > > > > insensitivity) > > > > > > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure > could > > > use > > > > > > your > > > > > > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am trying > > to > > > > > locate > > > > > > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he > > refers > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal > > system > > > > as > > > > > > the > > > > > > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of > reflexes > > > as > > > > > > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers to > > the > > > > > > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is > > > particular > > > > > to > > > > > > > human conversational activity. I am working with the hypothesis > > > that, > > > > > in > > > > > > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes > > > > *domesticated* > > > > > > by, > > > > > > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That > > is, > > > > the > > > > > > S-R > > > > > > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > > > > > > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic of > a > > > > person > > > > > > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point > > this > > > > > poor, > > > > > > > stumbling colleague > > > > > > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warm wishes to all, > > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt > > thanks > > > > to > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the > > > > opportunity > > > > > > for > > > > > > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our > ideas > > > in > > > > an > > > > > > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level > best > > to > > > > > raise > > > > > > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my > > participation > > > > in > > > > > > this > > > > > > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its > > > participants > > > > as > > > > > > is > > > > > > > humanly possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > > > Director, > > > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > Director, > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > Director, > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > Fordham University > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Oct 29 15:55:18 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 15:55:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First*and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: <5814d218.45cf620a.84282.32f9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Peter -- Concerning your initial question. I obtained the following answer from Tanya Akhutina. ????, ?????? ??????? ? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ? 1932 ?. ?????????????? ?????????? ? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ? 33 ? 34 ?????. ? ????? ?????????? ? ?????????? ?? ?????. ??? - ?????? ????, ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????????. ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???????????, ??????? ???, ?????? ???? ?.?.??????????. ?? ???????????? ? ??????? ????? ?????????? ?????? ???? ????? ???????? ? ????? ?????? ?? ???. 144: " ?.?. ????????? ???? ?????????? ??????, ? ? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ? ??????? ??????? ???????????????? ????? ???? ????????, ?? ??? ?? ????? ??????, ??????? ?? ??? ?????, ?????????? ?? ?????? ????????? ?????". Roughly, Mike, Pavlov wrote about the second signal system in 1932. Correspondingly, references/rememberances to it had to wait until 1933-34. Such references/ rememberances in Vygotsky I do not recall. ARL was another case, he was obligated to speak in this way. Olga Sergeevna Vinogradova, a student of ARL's [with whom I conducted research in the winter of 1962/63-mc] is cited by Lena Luria [Luria's daughter] in her book on p. 144 "A.R. new the teachings of Pavlov perfectly, and in his lectures he changed the lexicon and the beauty of a straightforward psychological language was replaced, but none the less the knowledge which he gave us remained on the the level of real science." On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 3:42 PM, mike cole wrote: > It seems that side-by-side translations of the two documents merit > archival publication, David. JREEP is an obvious repository. In addition to > which at present we have a good deal more evidence about children, chess > boards, and the issues vexing Vygotsky than he had access to. The > non/difficult chronology of the texts complicates an already complicated > process of interpretation as we have long witnessed here. > > Perhaps as a separate thread, it would be nice to put together a > discussion of the core linkages between Vygotsky and Halliday in your > work..... one of those chains of discussion that come and go. Perhaps a > mini-course devoted to the following, to me, essential idea: > > It seems to me that ALL of these are signalization systems (not > signifying systems, because they do not have lexicogrammar and cannot > convey ideal values) > > Providing a "cheat sheet" for autodidacts, might it be possible to create > some > "field of interest" in the xmca discussion for dealing with this idea? > > I have in no way forgotten the issue of the relation of microgenesis and > ontogenesis. It seems another "key point" as most of us go about using CHAT > ideas in the course of the teaching/learning activities that pay the bread > and butter. As matters stand, I offer Franklin in the blocks as an example > of microgenesis in a preschool classroom involving play as an example of a > zone of proximal development where childre are a head taller than > themselves. That discussion is for the microgenesis/ontogenesis thread if I > recall. > > I would be VERY interested to learn of ways that feminist, queer theory, > critical disability studies theory, neurodiversity theory, and others can > help me to understand these categories and the theories that purport to > account for them. > > If they need to be re-thought, might as well be here. Ain't goin nowhere. > > mike > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 2:28 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > >> I'm working with two versions of one of Vygotsky's last lectures (the >> second version is given exactly five days before he was brought home with >> a >> throat haemorrhage to die, the first about a year earlier). There are >> passages that are almost word for word repetitions. There are passages >> that >> are semantically the same and but quite differently worded (the earlier >> Vygotsky is quite modest and tentative; the later Vygotsky is much more >> critical and also more confident). Then there are passages that say pretty >> much the opposite of what was said a year earlier: for example, in the >> early lecture Vygotsky says that a child faced with a chessboard who >> doesn't know how to play will see it structurally and sort the pieces by >> color (black pieces on black squares, white on white) but in the later >> lecture it is the child who does know how to play who sees it >> structurally, >> because the child sees a black knight in a "structure" with a white pawn. >> He's a genius, and geniuses tend to think things over a lot, turning them >> this way and that, and never looking at anything as final, not even when >> they are about to die. >> >> HDHMF has to be read the same way. Vygotsky cannot quite seem to make up >> his mind whether there are three stages of higher behavior (instinct, >> habit, intelligence) or four different stages of higher behavior >> (instinct, >> habit, intelligence, and freedom). In Chapter Four, he very clearly argues >> for four or more, but in Chapter Five, which may have been written much >> earlier, he argues for three but then three paragraphs later considers it >> safer to begin as Thorndike does with two levels (unconditional and >> conditional responses). So "signal" vs. "signification" could just be seen >> as the difference between unconditional and conditional responses, or it >> could be seen as the difference between instinct and intelligence, or it >> could be seen as two poles with an almost infinite number of genetic >> variations in between. I prefer the latter view, but I recognize that >> Vygotsky has to package things pretty differently for different audiences, >> and we are not one of the audiences that he has foremost in his mind. >> >> Take bacteria. Bacteria are apparently capable of quorum sensing: that is, >> bacteria don't multiply when there are no other bacteria around, they do >> when there are some but not too many, and they don't when there are too >> many. Now, take ants. Ants have a system of finding new nests that >> involves >> scouting for potential sites. If the site is extremely good, they go back >> and take other ants there quickly, but if it is not so good they tend to >> dawdle a little, with the result that the best site gets more ants, and at >> a certain point the whole nest "decides" to move there. Now, take >> bees. Like ants, bees go scouting. The scouts come back and they dance; >> the >> dances attract more or fewer onlookers, and when a quorum is reached, the >> hive moves. It seems to me that ALL of these are signalization systems >> (not >> signifying systems, because they do not have lexicogrammar and cannot >> convey ideal values) but the difference between the ant system and the >> bee >> system is as big as the difference between the bee system and early child >> language. For ants, the scouting and decision making are not >> differentiated, but for bees they are distinct moments--so the ant system >> involves a simple signal system and the bee system involves a second >> signal >> system. >> >> David Kellogg >> Macquarie University >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 3:45 AM, wrote: >> >> > In this discussion The center of this relational exploration is between >> > signalization AND signification and my question goes back to the place >> of >> > the general term *gesturing*. >> > Is this signalization or is this phenomena signification. >> > The act creating actual*ity (sens) which always includes tendency or >> > orientation towards or away from something. >> > The act is gestural acts and implies *each in the other*. >> > >> > The relation of gestural receiving and responding and this phenomena in >> > relation to signalization and signification. >> > >> > >> > Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> > >> > From: Huw Lloyd >> > Sent: October 29, 2016 9:01 AM >> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to >> > *First*and *Second* Signal Systems >> > >> > Peter, >> > >> > If by signalisation you mean use of signs to influence behaviour in >> terms >> > of operational criteria and speech, then yes this is so. It has been >> > studied quite systematically, but is perhaps less well known. I can >> > elaborate on this if this is your drift. >> > >> > Best, >> > Huw >> > >> > >> > On 28 October 2016 at 22:43, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < >> > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: >> > >> > > David, >> > > >> > > As usual, your suggestions are both helpful and erudite. Thanks for >> the >> > > poignant references to Vygotsky and to Marx. Although Soviet academic >> > > politics may have complicated the issue, there does seem to be some >> > > substance to the argument that the nervous systems of animals and the >> > > speech communication systems of humans share the common property of >> > > *signalization*. Personally, I think there's a lot more to this topic >> > than >> > > meets the eye--or, better yet, there's a lot of opportunity here for >> > > developing the problem further. >> > > >> > > Once again, I owe an intellectual debt to the participants of this >> > > listserv! >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > Peter >> > > >> > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:10 PM, David Kellogg >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > Peter: >> > > > >> > > > I think Mike's right. The "second signal system" was an attempt to >> > > preserve >> > > > the idea of higher psychological functions in an atmosphere that was >> > not >> > > > that different from what was going on in America at the same time >> (and >> > > > which Mike experienced first hand in both places). When I read >> > Belyayev's >> > > > work on foreign language teaching, he talks a lot about the "second >> > > signal >> > > > system". There, are, however, two places in Vygotsky which MIGHT >> > provide >> > > > some support, if you wanted to make the case that the "second signal >> > > > system" is not completely incompatible with Vygotsky. >> > > > >> > > > One is Chapter Two of the History of the Development of the Higher >> > Mental >> > > > functions. See below. Starting around paragraph 142, Vygotsky likens >> > > > Pavlov's model of the brain as a telephone exchange. The problem, of >> > > > course, is that back then telephone exchanges did require human >> > operators >> > > > to make the connection! >> > > > >> > > > The other is the discussion of "second order symbolism" in the work >> of >> > > > Delacroix, which you can find in Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech >> and >> > > > also in Chapter 7 of HDHMF (fifth para). This is a very different >> > > > notion--it's the idea that writing is a set of symbols for speaking. >> > > > >> > > > David Kellogg >> > > > Macquarie University >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >From HDHMF, Chapter Two, Research Method >> > > > >> > > > We know that, as Pavlov says, ?the most general bases of higher >> nervous >> > > > activity are ascribed to the large hemispheres, the same in both >> higher >> > > > animals and in people, and for this reason even elementary >> phenomena of >> > > > this activity must be identical in the one and in the other in both >> > > normal >> > > > and pathological cases? (1951, p. 15). Actually, this can scarcely >> be >> > > > disputed. But as soon as we go from the elementary phenomena of >> higher >> > > > nervous activity to the complex, to the higher phenomena within this >> > > higher >> > > > ? in the physiological sense ? activity, then two different >> > > methodological >> > > > paths for studying the specific uniqueness of human higher behavior >> > open >> > > > before us. >> > > > >> > > > One is the path to further study of complication, enrichment, and >> > > > differentiation of the same phenomena that experimental study >> > ascertains >> > > in >> > > > animals. Here, on this path, the greatest restraint must be >> observed. >> > In >> > > > transferring information on higher nervous activity of animals to >> > higher >> > > > activity of man, we must constantly check the factual similarities >> in >> > the >> > > > function of organs in man and animals, but in general the principle >> > > itself >> > > > of the research remains the same as it was in the study of animals. >> > This >> > > is >> > > > the path of physiological study. >> > > > >> > > > True, this circumstance is of major significance and in the area of >> > > > physiological study of behavior, in a comparative study of man and >> > > animals, >> > > > we must not put the function of the heart, stomach, and other organs >> > > which >> > > > are so similar to that of man on the same plane with higher nervous >> > > > activity. In the words of I. P. Pavlov, ?It is specifically this >> > activity >> > > > that so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals, that >> places >> > > man >> > > > immeasurably above the whole animal world? (ibid. p. 414). And we >> might >> > > > expect that along the path of physiological research we will find a >> > > > specific qualitative difference in human activity. Let us recall the >> > > words >> > > > of Pavlov cited above on the quantitative and qualitative >> > incomparability >> > > > of the word with conditioned stimuli of animals. Even in the plan of >> > > strict >> > > > physiological consideration, ?the grandiose signalistics of speech? >> > > stands >> > > > outside the whole other mass of stimuli, the ?multicapaciousness of >> the >> > > > word? places it in a unique position. >> > > > >> > > > The other path is the path of psychological research. From the very >> > > > beginning, it proposes to seek the specific uniqueness of human >> > behavior >> > > > which does take us beyond the initial point. The specific >> uniqueness is >> > > > considered not only in its subsequent complexity and development, >> > > > quantitative and qualitative refinement of the cerebral hemispheres, >> > but >> > > > primarily in the social nature of man and in a new method of >> > adaptation, >> > > as >> > > > compared with animals, that sets man apart. The main difference >> between >> > > the >> > > > behavior of man and of animals consists not only in that the human >> > brain >> > > is >> > > > immeasurably above the brain of the dog and that the higher nervous >> > > > activity ?so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals,? >> but >> > > most >> > > > of all, because it is the brain of a social being and because the >> laws >> > of >> > > > higher nervous activity of man are manifested and act in the human >> > > > personality. >> > > > >> > > > But let us return again to the ?most general bases of higher nervous >> > > > activity, related to the cerebral hemispheres,? and identical in >> higher >> > > > animals and man. We think that it is in this point that we can >> disclose >> > > > with definitive clarity the difference of which we speak. The most >> > > general >> > > > basis of behavior, identical in man and animals, is *signalization.* >> > > Pavlov >> > > > said, ?So the basic and most general activity of the cerebral >> > hemispheres >> > > > is signaling with an infinite number of signals and with changeable >> > > > signalization? (ibid., p. 30). As is known, this is the most general >> > > > formulation of the whole idea of conditioned reflexes that lies at >> the >> > > base >> > > > of the physiology of higher nervous activity. >> > > > >> > > > But human behavior is distinguished exactly in that it creates >> > artificial >> > > > signaling stimuli, primarily the grandiose signalization of speech, >> and >> > > in >> > > > this way masters the signaling activity of the cerebral >> hemispheres. If >> > > the >> > > > basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres in >> animals >> > > and >> > > > in man is signalization, then the basic and most general activity of >> > man >> > > > that differentiates man from animals in the first place, from the >> > aspect >> > > of >> > > > psychology, is *signification,* that is, creation and use of signs. >> We >> > > are >> > > > using this word in its most literal sense and precise meaning. >> > > > Signification is the creation and use of signs, that is, artificial >> > > > signals. >> > > > >> > > > We will consider more closely this new principle of activity. It >> must >> > not >> > > > in any sense be contrasted with the principle of signalization. >> > > Changeable >> > > > signalization that results in the formation of temporary, >> conditional, >> > > > special connections between the organism and the environment is an >> > > > indispensable, biological prerequisite of the higher activity that >> we >> > > > arbitrarily call signification and is its base. The system of >> > connections >> > > > that is established in the brain of an animal is a copy or >> reflection >> > of >> > > > natural connections between ?all kinds of agents of nature? that >> signal >> > > the >> > > > arrival of immediately favorable or destructive phenomena. >> > > > >> > > > It is very obvious that such signalization ? a reflection of the >> > natural >> > > > connection of phenomena, wholly created by natural conditions ? >> cannot >> > be >> > > > an adequate basis of human behavior. For human adaptation, an active >> > > > *change >> > > > in the nature of man *is essential. It is the basis of all human >> > history. >> > > > It necessarily presupposes an active change in man?s behavior. >> > ?Affecting >> > > > the environment by this movement and changing it, he changes his own >> > > nature >> > > > at the same time,? says Marx. ?He develops forces asleep in it and >> > > subjects >> > > > the play of these forces to his own will? (K. Marx and F. Engels, >> > > > *Collected >> > > > Works,* Vol. 23, pp. 188-189 >> > > > > > > > 3A__www.marxists.org_archive_marx_works_1867-2Dc1_ch07.htm- >> > > > 23forces&d=DQIFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r= >> > > > mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m= >> > cxiDdHmIrHosSMq59vJlZ4j-S- >> > > > 4h5DSiLaMzqzi2yNA&s=J3sZBxFP1DTk3B8MLGJTyEw-RZmpA347cJfMSUrwSa4&e= >> >). >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < >> > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Mike, >> > > > > >> > > > > Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the >> > > relevant >> > > > > passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the >> > other >> > > > > sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been >> much >> > > > > theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal >> > > system. >> > > > > I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is not >> > > just a >> > > > > political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find it >> > hard >> > > > to >> > > > > imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking >> is >> > > > > developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational >> > > > > initiation-response) system of thinking. >> > > > > >> > > > > If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to this >> > > topic, >> > > > > please don't hold back! >> > > > > >> > > > > Much obliged. >> > > > > >> > > > > In solidarity, >> > > > > Peter >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole >> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will >> come up >> > > > with >> > > > > > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his >> > little >> > > > book >> > > > > > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on >> "Speech >> > > > > > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and >> > > > > > Maltzman, *Handbook >> > > > > > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the >> > late >> > > > > > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there >> were >> > > > special >> > > > > > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and the >> > use >> > > of >> > > > > > first and second signal system by Pavlov >> > > > > > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > mike >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < >> > > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear colleagues, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and >> > > > absolutely >> > > > > > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say >> > > > > > insensitivity) >> > > > > > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure >> could >> > > use >> > > > > > your >> > > > > > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am >> trying >> > to >> > > > > locate >> > > > > > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he >> > refers >> > > > to >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > *first* and *second* signal systems. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal >> > system >> > > > as >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of >> reflexes >> > > as >> > > > > > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers >> to >> > the >> > > > > > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is >> > > particular >> > > > > to >> > > > > > > human conversational activity. I am working with the >> hypothesis >> > > that, >> > > > > in >> > > > > > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes >> > > > *domesticated* >> > > > > > by, >> > > > > > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. That >> > is, >> > > > the >> > > > > > S-R >> > > > > > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the >> > > > > > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic >> of a >> > > > person >> > > > > > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help point >> > this >> > > > > poor, >> > > > > > > stumbling colleague >> > > > > > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Warm wishes to all, >> > > > > > > Peter >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt >> > thanks >> > > > to >> > > > > > Mike >> > > > > > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the >> > > > opportunity >> > > > > > for >> > > > > > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our >> ideas >> > > in >> > > > an >> > > > > > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level >> best >> > to >> > > > > raise >> > > > > > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my >> > participation >> > > > in >> > > > > > this >> > > > > > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its >> > > participants >> > > > as >> > > > > > is >> > > > > > > humanly possible. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. >> > > > > > > Director, >> > > > > > > Office of Institutional Research >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> >> > > > > > > Fordham University >> > > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 >> > > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 >> > > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 >> > > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > -- >> > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. >> > > > > Director, >> > > > > Office of Institutional Research >> > > > > >> > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> >> > > > > Fordham University >> > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 >> > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 >> > > > > >> > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 >> > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 >> > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. >> > > Director, >> > > Office of Institutional Research >> > > > > > office_of_institutio/index.asp> >> > > Fordham University >> > > Thebaud Hall-202 >> > > Bronx, NY 10458 >> > > >> > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 >> > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 >> > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu >> > > >> > >> > >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Oct 29 16:00:55 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 16:00:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First*and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: <5814d218.45cf620a.84282.32f9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: You and David make this read like an Azimov novel, Huw. I am happy to keep reading. How might Ursula Le Guin and the "lefthand of darkness" fit into this discussion? mike On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > One approach would be to look to studying the signalling in terms of serial > and parallel circuits. If you find serial systems that organise the > parallel ones then maybe you have two fairly obvious levels in play. > Assuming the correctness of this description of these species, one can also > consider the desirability to retain some features of the decision making > process in analog form, e.g. if vulnerability to predators is a high risk > then its good to have this in high fidelity, i.e. make it part of the map > upon which the pieces are moved. Its also often the case that you can > trade-off or translate between spatial and temporal representations. I > believe your are right to distinguish a moment of digital exchange (the > bees) within the system, but this is not necessarily indicative of being > more sophisticated. Reflexivity may be considered a more enriched decision > making process that an ideal patterned on a discrete reflection. > > Within the mathematical/systems space, there have been interesting > approaches to studying quorums. In Stafford Beer's VSM, there is situated > a large quorum existing between the autonomics of a (recursive) system > component and its future-oriented intelligence along the lines of an > action-operation split. > > I have clear memories from when I learned to play chess (maybe 5 yrs). I > had taken up the notion of "surrounding" as checkmate and then proceeded to > explain this to my older brother in terms of a maze-like structure. Soon > after, my father cut out an L-shape from the cover of one of his books, an > Azimov novel I think. I don't horde things, but it would have been nice to > still have that memento. > > Best, > Huw > > On 29 October 2016 at 22:28, David Kellogg wrote: > > > I'm working with two versions of one of Vygotsky's last lectures (the > > second version is given exactly five days before he was brought home > with a > > throat haemorrhage to die, the first about a year earlier). There are > > passages that are almost word for word repetitions. There are passages > that > > are semantically the same and but quite differently worded (the earlier > > Vygotsky is quite modest and tentative; the later Vygotsky is much more > > critical and also more confident). Then there are passages that say > pretty > > much the opposite of what was said a year earlier: for example, in the > > early lecture Vygotsky says that a child faced with a chessboard who > > doesn't know how to play will see it structurally and sort the pieces by > > color (black pieces on black squares, white on white) but in the later > > lecture it is the child who does know how to play who sees it > structurally, > > because the child sees a black knight in a "structure" with a white pawn. > > He's a genius, and geniuses tend to think things over a lot, turning them > > this way and that, and never looking at anything as final, not even when > > they are about to die. > > > > HDHMF has to be read the same way. Vygotsky cannot quite seem to make up > > his mind whether there are three stages of higher behavior (instinct, > > habit, intelligence) or four different stages of higher behavior > (instinct, > > habit, intelligence, and freedom). In Chapter Four, he very clearly > argues > > for four or more, but in Chapter Five, which may have been written much > > earlier, he argues for three but then three paragraphs later considers it > > safer to begin as Thorndike does with two levels (unconditional and > > conditional responses). So "signal" vs. "signification" could just be > seen > > as the difference between unconditional and conditional responses, or it > > could be seen as the difference between instinct and intelligence, or it > > could be seen as two poles with an almost infinite number of genetic > > variations in between. I prefer the latter view, but I recognize that > > Vygotsky has to package things pretty differently for different > audiences, > > and we are not one of the audiences that he has foremost in his mind. > > > > Take bacteria. Bacteria are apparently capable of quorum sensing: that > is, > > bacteria don't multiply when there are no other bacteria around, they do > > when there are some but not too many, and they don't when there are too > > many. Now, take ants. Ants have a system of finding new nests that > involves > > scouting for potential sites. If the site is extremely good, they go back > > and take other ants there quickly, but if it is not so good they tend to > > dawdle a little, with the result that the best site gets more ants, and > at > > a certain point the whole nest "decides" to move there. Now, take > > bees. Like ants, bees go scouting. The scouts come back and they dance; > the > > dances attract more or fewer onlookers, and when a quorum is reached, the > > hive moves. It seems to me that ALL of these are signalization systems > (not > > signifying systems, because they do not have lexicogrammar and cannot > > convey ideal values) but the difference between the ant system and the > bee > > system is as big as the difference between the bee system and early child > > language. For ants, the scouting and decision making are not > > differentiated, but for bees they are distinct moments--so the ant system > > involves a simple signal system and the bee system involves a second > signal > > system. > > > > David Kellogg > > Macquarie University > > > > On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 3:45 AM, wrote: > > > > > In this discussion The center of this relational exploration is between > > > signalization AND signification and my question goes back to the place > of > > > the general term *gesturing*. > > > Is this signalization or is this phenomena signification. > > > The act creating actual*ity (sens) which always includes tendency or > > > orientation towards or away from something. > > > The act is gestural acts and implies *each in the other*. > > > > > > The relation of gestural receiving and responding and this phenomena in > > > relation to signalization and signification. > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > > > From: Huw Lloyd > > > Sent: October 29, 2016 9:01 AM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to > > > *First*and *Second* Signal Systems > > > > > > Peter, > > > > > > If by signalisation you mean use of signs to influence behaviour in > terms > > > of operational criteria and speech, then yes this is so. It has been > > > studied quite systematically, but is perhaps less well known. I can > > > elaborate on this if this is your drift. > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > On 28 October 2016 at 22:43, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > As usual, your suggestions are both helpful and erudite. Thanks for > > the > > > > poignant references to Vygotsky and to Marx. Although Soviet > academic > > > > politics may have complicated the issue, there does seem to be some > > > > substance to the argument that the nervous systems of animals and the > > > > speech communication systems of humans share the common property of > > > > *signalization*. Personally, I think there's a lot more to this topic > > > than > > > > meets the eye--or, better yet, there's a lot of opportunity here for > > > > developing the problem further. > > > > > > > > Once again, I owe an intellectual debt to the participants of this > > > > listserv! > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:10 PM, David Kellogg > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Peter: > > > > > > > > > > I think Mike's right. The "second signal system" was an attempt to > > > > preserve > > > > > the idea of higher psychological functions in an atmosphere that > was > > > not > > > > > that different from what was going on in America at the same time > > (and > > > > > which Mike experienced first hand in both places). When I read > > > Belyayev's > > > > > work on foreign language teaching, he talks a lot about the "second > > > > signal > > > > > system". There, are, however, two places in Vygotsky which MIGHT > > > provide > > > > > some support, if you wanted to make the case that the "second > signal > > > > > system" is not completely incompatible with Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > > > One is Chapter Two of the History of the Development of the Higher > > > Mental > > > > > functions. See below. Starting around paragraph 142, Vygotsky > likens > > > > > Pavlov's model of the brain as a telephone exchange. The problem, > of > > > > > course, is that back then telephone exchanges did require human > > > operators > > > > > to make the connection! > > > > > > > > > > The other is the discussion of "second order symbolism" in the work > > of > > > > > Delacroix, which you can find in Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech > > and > > > > > also in Chapter 7 of HDHMF (fifth para). This is a very different > > > > > notion--it's the idea that writing is a set of symbols for > speaking. > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From HDHMF, Chapter Two, Research Method > > > > > > > > > > We know that, as Pavlov says, ?the most general bases of higher > > nervous > > > > > activity are ascribed to the large hemispheres, the same in both > > higher > > > > > animals and in people, and for this reason even elementary > phenomena > > of > > > > > this activity must be identical in the one and in the other in both > > > > normal > > > > > and pathological cases? (1951, p. 15). Actually, this can scarcely > be > > > > > disputed. But as soon as we go from the elementary phenomena of > > higher > > > > > nervous activity to the complex, to the higher phenomena within > this > > > > higher > > > > > ? in the physiological sense ? activity, then two different > > > > methodological > > > > > paths for studying the specific uniqueness of human higher behavior > > > open > > > > > before us. > > > > > > > > > > One is the path to further study of complication, enrichment, and > > > > > differentiation of the same phenomena that experimental study > > > ascertains > > > > in > > > > > animals. Here, on this path, the greatest restraint must be > observed. > > > In > > > > > transferring information on higher nervous activity of animals to > > > higher > > > > > activity of man, we must constantly check the factual similarities > in > > > the > > > > > function of organs in man and animals, but in general the principle > > > > itself > > > > > of the research remains the same as it was in the study of animals. > > > This > > > > is > > > > > the path of physiological study. > > > > > > > > > > True, this circumstance is of major significance and in the area of > > > > > physiological study of behavior, in a comparative study of man and > > > > animals, > > > > > we must not put the function of the heart, stomach, and other > organs > > > > which > > > > > are so similar to that of man on the same plane with higher nervous > > > > > activity. In the words of I. P. Pavlov, ?It is specifically this > > > activity > > > > > that so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals, that > > places > > > > man > > > > > immeasurably above the whole animal world? (ibid. p. 414). And we > > might > > > > > expect that along the path of physiological research we will find a > > > > > specific qualitative difference in human activity. Let us recall > the > > > > words > > > > > of Pavlov cited above on the quantitative and qualitative > > > incomparability > > > > > of the word with conditioned stimuli of animals. Even in the plan > of > > > > strict > > > > > physiological consideration, ?the grandiose signalistics of speech? > > > > stands > > > > > outside the whole other mass of stimuli, the ?multicapaciousness of > > the > > > > > word? places it in a unique position. > > > > > > > > > > The other path is the path of psychological research. From the very > > > > > beginning, it proposes to seek the specific uniqueness of human > > > behavior > > > > > which does take us beyond the initial point. The specific > uniqueness > > is > > > > > considered not only in its subsequent complexity and development, > > > > > quantitative and qualitative refinement of the cerebral > hemispheres, > > > but > > > > > primarily in the social nature of man and in a new method of > > > adaptation, > > > > as > > > > > compared with animals, that sets man apart. The main difference > > between > > > > the > > > > > behavior of man and of animals consists not only in that the human > > > brain > > > > is > > > > > immeasurably above the brain of the dog and that the higher nervous > > > > > activity ?so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals,? > but > > > > most > > > > > of all, because it is the brain of a social being and because the > > laws > > > of > > > > > higher nervous activity of man are manifested and act in the human > > > > > personality. > > > > > > > > > > But let us return again to the ?most general bases of higher > nervous > > > > > activity, related to the cerebral hemispheres,? and identical in > > higher > > > > > animals and man. We think that it is in this point that we can > > disclose > > > > > with definitive clarity the difference of which we speak. The most > > > > general > > > > > basis of behavior, identical in man and animals, is > *signalization.* > > > > Pavlov > > > > > said, ?So the basic and most general activity of the cerebral > > > hemispheres > > > > > is signaling with an infinite number of signals and with changeable > > > > > signalization? (ibid., p. 30). As is known, this is the most > general > > > > > formulation of the whole idea of conditioned reflexes that lies at > > the > > > > base > > > > > of the physiology of higher nervous activity. > > > > > > > > > > But human behavior is distinguished exactly in that it creates > > > artificial > > > > > signaling stimuli, primarily the grandiose signalization of speech, > > and > > > > in > > > > > this way masters the signaling activity of the cerebral > hemispheres. > > If > > > > the > > > > > basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres in > > animals > > > > and > > > > > in man is signalization, then the basic and most general activity > of > > > man > > > > > that differentiates man from animals in the first place, from the > > > aspect > > > > of > > > > > psychology, is *signification,* that is, creation and use of signs. > > We > > > > are > > > > > using this word in its most literal sense and precise meaning. > > > > > Signification is the creation and use of signs, that is, artificial > > > > > signals. > > > > > > > > > > We will consider more closely this new principle of activity. It > must > > > not > > > > > in any sense be contrasted with the principle of signalization. > > > > Changeable > > > > > signalization that results in the formation of temporary, > > conditional, > > > > > special connections between the organism and the environment is an > > > > > indispensable, biological prerequisite of the higher activity that > we > > > > > arbitrarily call signification and is its base. The system of > > > connections > > > > > that is established in the brain of an animal is a copy or > reflection > > > of > > > > > natural connections between ?all kinds of agents of nature? that > > signal > > > > the > > > > > arrival of immediately favorable or destructive phenomena. > > > > > > > > > > It is very obvious that such signalization ? a reflection of the > > > natural > > > > > connection of phenomena, wholly created by natural conditions ? > > cannot > > > be > > > > > an adequate basis of human behavior. For human adaptation, an > active > > > > > *change > > > > > in the nature of man *is essential. It is the basis of all human > > > history. > > > > > It necessarily presupposes an active change in man?s behavior. > > > ?Affecting > > > > > the environment by this movement and changing it, he changes his > own > > > > nature > > > > > at the same time,? says Marx. ?He develops forces asleep in it and > > > > subjects > > > > > the play of these forces to his own will? (K. Marx and F. Engels, > > > > > *Collected > > > > > Works,* Vol. 23, pp. 188-189 > > > > > > > > > 3A__www.marxists.org_archive_marx_works_1867-2Dc1_ch07.htm- > > > > > 23forces&d=DQIFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r= > > > > > mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m= > > > cxiDdHmIrHosSMq59vJlZ4j-S- > > > > > 4h5DSiLaMzqzi2yNA&s=J3sZBxFP1DTk3B8MLGJTyEw-RZmpA347cJfMSUrwSa4&e= > > >). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the > > > > relevant > > > > > > passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of the > > > other > > > > > > sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been > > much > > > > > > theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second signal > > > > system. > > > > > > I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is > not > > > > just a > > > > > > political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find > it > > > hard > > > > > to > > > > > > imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of thinking > is > > > > > > developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational > > > > > > initiation-response) system of thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to > this > > > > topic, > > > > > > please don't hold back! > > > > > > > > > > > > Much obliged. > > > > > > > > > > > > In solidarity, > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will > come > > up > > > > > with > > > > > > > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his > > > little > > > > > book > > > > > > > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on > > "Speech > > > > > > > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole and > > > > > > > Maltzman, *Handbook > > > > > > > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a lot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with the > > > late > > > > > > > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there > were > > > > > special > > > > > > > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and > the > > > use > > > > of > > > > > > > first and second signal system by Pavlov > > > > > > > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious and > > > > > absolutely > > > > > > > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I say > > > > > > > insensitivity) > > > > > > > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure > > could > > > > use > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am > trying > > > to > > > > > > locate > > > > > > > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which he > > > refers > > > > > to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first signal > > > system > > > > > as > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of > > reflexes > > > > as > > > > > > > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system refers > to > > > the > > > > > > > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is > > > > particular > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > human conversational activity. I am working with the > hypothesis > > > > that, > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes > > > > > *domesticated* > > > > > > > by, > > > > > > > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. > That > > > is, > > > > > the > > > > > > > S-R > > > > > > > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into the > > > > > > > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic > of > > a > > > > > person > > > > > > > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help > point > > > this > > > > > > poor, > > > > > > > > stumbling colleague > > > > > > > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warm wishes to all, > > > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my heartfelt > > > thanks > > > > > to > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the > > > > > opportunity > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our > > ideas > > > > in > > > > > an > > > > > > > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level > > best > > > to > > > > > > raise > > > > > > > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my > > > participation > > > > > in > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its > > > > participants > > > > > as > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > humanly possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > > > > Director, > > > > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > > Director, > > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > Director, > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > Fordham University > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Oct 29 16:12:22 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 00:12:22 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to *First*and *Second* Signal Systems In-Reply-To: References: <5814d218.45cf620a.84282.32f9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On 30 October 2016 at 00:00, mike cole wrote: > You and David make this read like an Azimov novel, Huw. I am happy to keep > reading. > > How might Ursula Le Guin and the "lefthand of darkness" fit into > this discussion? > > mike > I don't know. But if its got anything to do with "through a glass, darkly", then I did parody that with "through a hedgerow, backwards" (pertaining to B.J. camp in relation to Heathrow -- UK politics). Maybe you should tell the next bit of the story? > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > One approach would be to look to studying the signalling in terms of > serial > > and parallel circuits. If you find serial systems that organise the > > parallel ones then maybe you have two fairly obvious levels in play. > > Assuming the correctness of this description of these species, one can > also > > consider the desirability to retain some features of the decision making > > process in analog form, e.g. if vulnerability to predators is a high risk > > then its good to have this in high fidelity, i.e. make it part of the map > > upon which the pieces are moved. Its also often the case that you can > > trade-off or translate between spatial and temporal representations. I > > believe your are right to distinguish a moment of digital exchange (the > > bees) within the system, but this is not necessarily indicative of being > > more sophisticated. Reflexivity may be considered a more enriched > decision > > making process that an ideal patterned on a discrete reflection. > > > > Within the mathematical/systems space, there have been interesting > > approaches to studying quorums. In Stafford Beer's VSM, there is > situated > > a large quorum existing between the autonomics of a (recursive) system > > component and its future-oriented intelligence along the lines of an > > action-operation split. > > > > I have clear memories from when I learned to play chess (maybe 5 yrs). I > > had taken up the notion of "surrounding" as checkmate and then proceeded > to > > explain this to my older brother in terms of a maze-like structure. Soon > > after, my father cut out an L-shape from the cover of one of his books, > an > > Azimov novel I think. I don't horde things, but it would have been nice > to > > still have that memento. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > On 29 October 2016 at 22:28, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > > I'm working with two versions of one of Vygotsky's last lectures (the > > > second version is given exactly five days before he was brought home > > with a > > > throat haemorrhage to die, the first about a year earlier). There are > > > passages that are almost word for word repetitions. There are passages > > that > > > are semantically the same and but quite differently worded (the earlier > > > Vygotsky is quite modest and tentative; the later Vygotsky is much more > > > critical and also more confident). Then there are passages that say > > pretty > > > much the opposite of what was said a year earlier: for example, in the > > > early lecture Vygotsky says that a child faced with a chessboard who > > > doesn't know how to play will see it structurally and sort the pieces > by > > > color (black pieces on black squares, white on white) but in the later > > > lecture it is the child who does know how to play who sees it > > structurally, > > > because the child sees a black knight in a "structure" with a white > pawn. > > > He's a genius, and geniuses tend to think things over a lot, turning > them > > > this way and that, and never looking at anything as final, not even > when > > > they are about to die. > > > > > > HDHMF has to be read the same way. Vygotsky cannot quite seem to make > up > > > his mind whether there are three stages of higher behavior (instinct, > > > habit, intelligence) or four different stages of higher behavior > > (instinct, > > > habit, intelligence, and freedom). In Chapter Four, he very clearly > > argues > > > for four or more, but in Chapter Five, which may have been written much > > > earlier, he argues for three but then three paragraphs later considers > it > > > safer to begin as Thorndike does with two levels (unconditional and > > > conditional responses). So "signal" vs. "signification" could just be > > seen > > > as the difference between unconditional and conditional responses, or > it > > > could be seen as the difference between instinct and intelligence, or > it > > > could be seen as two poles with an almost infinite number of genetic > > > variations in between. I prefer the latter view, but I recognize that > > > Vygotsky has to package things pretty differently for different > > audiences, > > > and we are not one of the audiences that he has foremost in his mind. > > > > > > Take bacteria. Bacteria are apparently capable of quorum sensing: that > > is, > > > bacteria don't multiply when there are no other bacteria around, they > do > > > when there are some but not too many, and they don't when there are too > > > many. Now, take ants. Ants have a system of finding new nests that > > involves > > > scouting for potential sites. If the site is extremely good, they go > back > > > and take other ants there quickly, but if it is not so good they tend > to > > > dawdle a little, with the result that the best site gets more ants, and > > at > > > a certain point the whole nest "decides" to move there. Now, take > > > bees. Like ants, bees go scouting. The scouts come back and they dance; > > the > > > dances attract more or fewer onlookers, and when a quorum is reached, > the > > > hive moves. It seems to me that ALL of these are signalization systems > > (not > > > signifying systems, because they do not have lexicogrammar and cannot > > > convey ideal values) but the difference between the ant system and the > > bee > > > system is as big as the difference between the bee system and early > child > > > language. For ants, the scouting and decision making are not > > > differentiated, but for bees they are distinct moments--so the ant > system > > > involves a simple signal system and the bee system involves a second > > signal > > > system. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 3:45 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > In this discussion The center of this relational exploration is > between > > > > signalization AND signification and my question goes back to the > place > > of > > > > the general term *gesturing*. > > > > Is this signalization or is this phenomena signification. > > > > The act creating actual*ity (sens) which always includes tendency or > > > > orientation towards or away from something. > > > > The act is gestural acts and implies *each in the other*. > > > > > > > > The relation of gestural receiving and responding and this phenomena > in > > > > relation to signalization and signification. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > > > > > From: Huw Lloyd > > > > Sent: October 29, 2016 9:01 AM > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: XMCA-ers: Help needed finding LSV references to > > > > *First*and *Second* Signal Systems > > > > > > > > Peter, > > > > > > > > If by signalisation you mean use of signs to influence behaviour in > > terms > > > > of operational criteria and speech, then yes this is so. It has been > > > > studied quite systematically, but is perhaps less well known. I can > > > > elaborate on this if this is your drift. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > > On 28 October 2016 at 22:43, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > As usual, your suggestions are both helpful and erudite. Thanks > for > > > the > > > > > poignant references to Vygotsky and to Marx. Although Soviet > > academic > > > > > politics may have complicated the issue, there does seem to be some > > > > > substance to the argument that the nervous systems of animals and > the > > > > > speech communication systems of humans share the common property of > > > > > *signalization*. Personally, I think there's a lot more to this > topic > > > > than > > > > > meets the eye--or, better yet, there's a lot of opportunity here > for > > > > > developing the problem further. > > > > > > > > > > Once again, I owe an intellectual debt to the participants of this > > > > > listserv! > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:10 PM, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Peter: > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Mike's right. The "second signal system" was an attempt > to > > > > > preserve > > > > > > the idea of higher psychological functions in an atmosphere that > > was > > > > not > > > > > > that different from what was going on in America at the same time > > > (and > > > > > > which Mike experienced first hand in both places). When I read > > > > Belyayev's > > > > > > work on foreign language teaching, he talks a lot about the > "second > > > > > signal > > > > > > system". There, are, however, two places in Vygotsky which MIGHT > > > > provide > > > > > > some support, if you wanted to make the case that the "second > > signal > > > > > > system" is not completely incompatible with Vygotsky. > > > > > > > > > > > > One is Chapter Two of the History of the Development of the > Higher > > > > Mental > > > > > > functions. See below. Starting around paragraph 142, Vygotsky > > likens > > > > > > Pavlov's model of the brain as a telephone exchange. The problem, > > of > > > > > > course, is that back then telephone exchanges did require human > > > > operators > > > > > > to make the connection! > > > > > > > > > > > > The other is the discussion of "second order symbolism" in the > work > > > of > > > > > > Delacroix, which you can find in Chapter Six of Thinking and > Speech > > > and > > > > > > also in Chapter 7 of HDHMF (fifth para). This is a very different > > > > > > notion--it's the idea that writing is a set of symbols for > > speaking. > > > > > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > Macquarie University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From HDHMF, Chapter Two, Research Method > > > > > > > > > > > > We know that, as Pavlov says, ?the most general bases of higher > > > nervous > > > > > > activity are ascribed to the large hemispheres, the same in both > > > higher > > > > > > animals and in people, and for this reason even elementary > > phenomena > > > of > > > > > > this activity must be identical in the one and in the other in > both > > > > > normal > > > > > > and pathological cases? (1951, p. 15). Actually, this can > scarcely > > be > > > > > > disputed. But as soon as we go from the elementary phenomena of > > > higher > > > > > > nervous activity to the complex, to the higher phenomena within > > this > > > > > higher > > > > > > ? in the physiological sense ? activity, then two different > > > > > methodological > > > > > > paths for studying the specific uniqueness of human higher > behavior > > > > open > > > > > > before us. > > > > > > > > > > > > One is the path to further study of complication, enrichment, and > > > > > > differentiation of the same phenomena that experimental study > > > > ascertains > > > > > in > > > > > > animals. Here, on this path, the greatest restraint must be > > observed. > > > > In > > > > > > transferring information on higher nervous activity of animals to > > > > higher > > > > > > activity of man, we must constantly check the factual > similarities > > in > > > > the > > > > > > function of organs in man and animals, but in general the > principle > > > > > itself > > > > > > of the research remains the same as it was in the study of > animals. > > > > This > > > > > is > > > > > > the path of physiological study. > > > > > > > > > > > > True, this circumstance is of major significance and in the area > of > > > > > > physiological study of behavior, in a comparative study of man > and > > > > > animals, > > > > > > we must not put the function of the heart, stomach, and other > > organs > > > > > which > > > > > > are so similar to that of man on the same plane with higher > nervous > > > > > > activity. In the words of I. P. Pavlov, ?It is specifically this > > > > activity > > > > > > that so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals, that > > > places > > > > > man > > > > > > immeasurably above the whole animal world? (ibid. p. 414). And we > > > might > > > > > > expect that along the path of physiological research we will > find a > > > > > > specific qualitative difference in human activity. Let us recall > > the > > > > > words > > > > > > of Pavlov cited above on the quantitative and qualitative > > > > incomparability > > > > > > of the word with conditioned stimuli of animals. Even in the plan > > of > > > > > strict > > > > > > physiological consideration, ?the grandiose signalistics of > speech? > > > > > stands > > > > > > outside the whole other mass of stimuli, the ?multicapaciousness > of > > > the > > > > > > word? places it in a unique position. > > > > > > > > > > > > The other path is the path of psychological research. From the > very > > > > > > beginning, it proposes to seek the specific uniqueness of human > > > > behavior > > > > > > which does take us beyond the initial point. The specific > > uniqueness > > > is > > > > > > considered not only in its subsequent complexity and development, > > > > > > quantitative and qualitative refinement of the cerebral > > hemispheres, > > > > but > > > > > > primarily in the social nature of man and in a new method of > > > > adaptation, > > > > > as > > > > > > compared with animals, that sets man apart. The main difference > > > between > > > > > the > > > > > > behavior of man and of animals consists not only in that the > human > > > > brain > > > > > is > > > > > > immeasurably above the brain of the dog and that the higher > nervous > > > > > > activity ?so strikingly sets man apart from the rank of animals,? > > but > > > > > most > > > > > > of all, because it is the brain of a social being and because the > > > laws > > > > of > > > > > > higher nervous activity of man are manifested and act in the > human > > > > > > personality. > > > > > > > > > > > > But let us return again to the ?most general bases of higher > > nervous > > > > > > activity, related to the cerebral hemispheres,? and identical in > > > higher > > > > > > animals and man. We think that it is in this point that we can > > > disclose > > > > > > with definitive clarity the difference of which we speak. The > most > > > > > general > > > > > > basis of behavior, identical in man and animals, is > > *signalization.* > > > > > Pavlov > > > > > > said, ?So the basic and most general activity of the cerebral > > > > hemispheres > > > > > > is signaling with an infinite number of signals and with > changeable > > > > > > signalization? (ibid., p. 30). As is known, this is the most > > general > > > > > > formulation of the whole idea of conditioned reflexes that lies > at > > > the > > > > > base > > > > > > of the physiology of higher nervous activity. > > > > > > > > > > > > But human behavior is distinguished exactly in that it creates > > > > artificial > > > > > > signaling stimuli, primarily the grandiose signalization of > speech, > > > and > > > > > in > > > > > > this way masters the signaling activity of the cerebral > > hemispheres. > > > If > > > > > the > > > > > > basic and most general activity of the cerebral hemispheres in > > > animals > > > > > and > > > > > > in man is signalization, then the basic and most general activity > > of > > > > man > > > > > > that differentiates man from animals in the first place, from the > > > > aspect > > > > > of > > > > > > psychology, is *signification,* that is, creation and use of > signs. > > > We > > > > > are > > > > > > using this word in its most literal sense and precise meaning. > > > > > > Signification is the creation and use of signs, that is, > artificial > > > > > > signals. > > > > > > > > > > > > We will consider more closely this new principle of activity. It > > must > > > > not > > > > > > in any sense be contrasted with the principle of signalization. > > > > > Changeable > > > > > > signalization that results in the formation of temporary, > > > conditional, > > > > > > special connections between the organism and the environment is > an > > > > > > indispensable, biological prerequisite of the higher activity > that > > we > > > > > > arbitrarily call signification and is its base. The system of > > > > connections > > > > > > that is established in the brain of an animal is a copy or > > reflection > > > > of > > > > > > natural connections between ?all kinds of agents of nature? that > > > signal > > > > > the > > > > > > arrival of immediately favorable or destructive phenomena. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is very obvious that such signalization ? a reflection of the > > > > natural > > > > > > connection of phenomena, wholly created by natural conditions ? > > > cannot > > > > be > > > > > > an adequate basis of human behavior. For human adaptation, an > > active > > > > > > *change > > > > > > in the nature of man *is essential. It is the basis of all human > > > > history. > > > > > > It necessarily presupposes an active change in man?s behavior. > > > > ?Affecting > > > > > > the environment by this movement and changing it, he changes his > > own > > > > > nature > > > > > > at the same time,? says Marx. ?He develops forces asleep in it > and > > > > > subjects > > > > > > the play of these forces to his own will? (K. Marx and F. Engels, > > > > > > *Collected > > > > > > Works,* Vol. 23, pp. 188-189 > > > > > > > > > > > 3A__www.marxists.org_archive_marx_works_1867-2Dc1_ch07.htm- > > > > > > 23forces&d=DQIFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURk > cqADc2guUW8IM&r= > > > > > > mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m= > > > > cxiDdHmIrHosSMq59vJlZ4j-S- > > > > > > 4h5DSiLaMzqzi2yNA&s=J3sZBxFP1DTk3B8MLGJTyEw- > RZmpA347cJfMSUrwSa4&e= > > > >). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the Luria references. From a cursory reading of the > > > > > relevant > > > > > > > passages in the Luria & Yudovich book, and judging by some of > the > > > > other > > > > > > > sources you listed, I get the impression that there hasn't been > > > much > > > > > > > theoretical *fleshing out* of the structures of the second > signal > > > > > system. > > > > > > > I hope that the concept of a first and second signal system is > > not > > > > > just a > > > > > > > political argument, but instead has some real substance. I find > > it > > > > hard > > > > > > to > > > > > > > imagine that our *animal* (stimulus-response) system of > thinking > > is > > > > > > > developmentally unrelated to our *human* (conversational > > > > > > > initiation-response) system of thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If anyone else knows of any passages from Vygotsky related to > > this > > > > > topic, > > > > > > > please don't hold back! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Much obliged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In solidarity, > > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:56 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter-- If you google Luria "second signal system" you will > > come > > > up > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > several references. There is a copy at luria.ucsd.edu of his > > > > little > > > > > > book > > > > > > > > with Yudovich on twins that uses that language. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not online (so far as i know), but Luria's article on > > > "Speech > > > > > > > > development and the formation of mental processes" in Cole > and > > > > > > > > Maltzman, *Handbook > > > > > > > > of Soviet Psychology. *Basic Books, 1969 uses this term a > lot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe you will find an upsurge of usage associated with > the > > > > late > > > > > > > > 1940's-50's when Vygotskians were under severe attack, there > > were > > > > > > special > > > > > > > > "Pavlov sessions" where they had to recant their errors, and > > the > > > > use > > > > > of > > > > > > > > first and second signal system by Pavlov > > > > > > > > allowed them a life line to orthodoxy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] < > > > > > > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to detract in any way from the very serious > and > > > > > > absolutely > > > > > > > > > necessary discussion about male sensitivity (or should I > say > > > > > > > > insensitivity) > > > > > > > > > to the voices of the women inhabiting this list, but I sure > > > could > > > > > use > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > collective help with a small matter of scholarship. I am > > trying > > > > to > > > > > > > locate > > > > > > > > > any passages in LSV's Collected Works in English in which > he > > > > refers > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > *first* and *second* signal systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that Vygotsky considers the first > signal > > > > system > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > biologically inherited stimulus-response (S-R) system of > > > reflexes > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > described by Pavlov, whereas the second signal system > refers > > to > > > > the > > > > > > > > > culturally inherited system of initiation-response that is > > > > > particular > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > human conversational activity. I am working with the > > hypothesis > > > > > that, > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > ontogenetic development, the first signal system becomes > > > > > > *domesticated* > > > > > > > > by, > > > > > > > > > and ultimately subordinated to, the second signal system. > > That > > > > is, > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > S-R > > > > > > > > > form of thinking becomes developmentally transformed into > the > > > > > > > > > Initiation-Response form of thinking that is characteristic > > of > > > a > > > > > > person > > > > > > > > > performing a listening-speaking turn in conversation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If any of the wonderful scholars on this list could help > > point > > > > this > > > > > > > poor, > > > > > > > > > stumbling colleague > > > > > > > > > in the right direction, I would be most grateful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warm wishes to all, > > > > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > p.s. -- Let me take this opportunity to express my > heartfelt > > > > thanks > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > for creating this list in the first place, and with it the > > > > > > opportunity > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > Vygotskian scholars the world over to share and discuss our > > > ideas > > > > > in > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > open and honest forum. For my part, I pledge to do my level > > > best > > > > to > > > > > > > raise > > > > > > > > > my own consciousness where it is deficient so that my > > > > participation > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > forum will be as inclusive and respectful to all of its > > > > > participants > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > humanly possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > > > > > Director, > > > > > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > > > Director, > > > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > > > > > provos/office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D. > > > > > Director, > > > > > Office of Institutional Research > > > > > > > > > office_of_institutio/index.asp> > > > > > Fordham University > > > > > Thebaud Hall-202 > > > > > Bronx, NY 10458 > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243 > > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817 > > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Sun Oct 30 03:30:18 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 10:30:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] JoLLE Newsletter! Message-ID: https://www.smore.com/29wv8-jolle-newsletter [https://s.smore.com/ss/5814d2b53f86760010ad06a7-screenshot-fb_wide.jpg?_v=1477760320] JoLLE Newsletter www.smore.com JoLLE Newsletter Conference Information, Scholars Speak Out, and Take Two for October From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Oct 30 16:09:13 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 16:09:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?RndkOiDQm9GD0YDQuNC10LLRgdC60LjQuSDQutC+0L3Qs9GA0LU=?= =?utf-8?b?0YHRgQ==?= In-Reply-To: <1477858904.299048924@f232.i.mail.ru> References: <1477853253.856401431@f408.i.mail.ru> <1477858904.299048924@f232.i.mail.ru> Message-ID: Dear Colleagues -- This announcement of a meeting about Luria's ideas seems to present an opportunity for some sort of XMCA event. I am making inquiries about "virtual participation" using something like Skype. At the same time, I was reminded that the Vygotsky Readings are coming up and the time for embodied participant involvement has passed. http://eng. levb.org/readings.html It seems a pity to pass up such invitations to collegial conversation. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Janna Glozman Date: Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 1:21 PM Subject: ?????????? ???????? To: Tatiana Akhutina Cc: mike cole -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: First information letter-eng.doc Type: application/msword Size: 540160 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161030/a65ee394/attachment-0002.doc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: First information letter-RUS.doc Type: application/msword Size: 542208 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161030/a65ee394/attachment-0003.doc From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Oct 30 16:45:05 2016 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 23:45:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> Message-ID: How do Bernie's "votes" figure in this, will they translate into policy? Best, Huw On 28 October 2016 at 22:02, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > I would like to post something historic that I don't think has ever been > declared by the New York times prior to a US Election: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/upshot/ > presidential-polls-forecast.html > > > It feels highly relevant to this thread, because it may shine a light on > what it feels like to see a story of a woman prevailing in very neutral > language. You will note, there is nothing about her hair, nor her > appearance, nor mention of her husband. > > > And, to Huw's (probable) liking, there's a lot of statistics that show (I > hope) the inevitable. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Sun Oct 30 22:50:01 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 05:50:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Message-ID: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> Dear xmca'ers, I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, which is now available open access at the T&F MCA pages. After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful paper (which still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and ontogenesis), we will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret Eisenhart and Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science Education in the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the whole issue, offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity in this case). Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US elections (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). Meanwhile, I share the link to the article (see above), and also attach it as PDF. ??Good read! Alfredo -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Eisenhart & Allen 2016 Hollowed Out Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and Science Identities in the Contex Type: application/pdf Size: 1007795 bytes Desc: Eisenhart & Allen 2016 Hollowed Out Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and Science Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161031/92f42631/attachment-0001.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Oct 31 06:49:59 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 06:49:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <58174c10.4223620a.cb56a.39b6@mx.google.com> I was looking through Louis Menand?s (The Metaphysical Club: A Story of Ideas in America) and this paragraph struck a cord in this moment of the election dynamics unfolding and the place of gender in earlier times. Abolitioism arose out of the *Second Great Awakening* the evangelical revival that swept through New England and then upstate New York between 1800 and 1840, and that also spawned temperance, women?s rights, and other social reform movements, along with a number of utopian and religious sects, most famously the Mormons. The *foundations* of the abolitionalist movement were therefore spiritual and anti-institutional. Abolitionism was a party for people who did not believe in parties ? a paradoxical law of attraction that turned out to be ideally suited to Unitarian, Transcendentalist, and generally post-Calvanist culture like New England, a culture increasingly obsessed with the moral authority of the individual conscience. The American Anti-Slavery Society, the movement?s organizational arm, had relatively few members, membership in an organization being the sort of thing that tends to compromise the *inner vision*. BUT it had many followers. I was struck that between 1800 and 1840 in this locale (Boston and upstate New York) how many social reform movents (post Calvanism) originated and unfolded to permeate American culture. Then to return to the current election with this historical*ity in awareness. Back and forth living presence, including women?s rights. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Annalisa Aguilar Sent: October 28, 2016 2:04 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse I would like to post something historic that I don't think has ever been declared by the New York times prior to a US Election: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/upshot/presidential-polls-forecast.html It feels highly relevant to this thread, because it may shine a light on what it feels like to see a story of a woman prevailing in very neutral language. You will note, there is nothing about her hair, nor her appearance, nor mention of her husband. And, to Huw's (probable) liking, there's a lot of statistics that show (I hope) the inevitable. Kind regards, Annalisa From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Mon Oct 31 09:10:52 2016 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:10:52 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: <58174c10.4223620a.cb56a.39b6@mx.google.com> References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> <58174c10.4223620a.cb56a.39b6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hello to everyone, I am a woman who likes following the discussion on xmca, but has intervened into xmca discussions only once, even if I enrolled five or six years ago. I thank Mike Cole to have raised the issue of few female voices on this listserv. This is a very complex issue. I would approach this topic by referring to my own experience in this listserv. This is a typical feminist approach: starting from our own experience and avoiding generalization. I think that one of the reasons that keeps me out from contributing to the interesting debates here in this listserv is time. When I read so many posts from the same people, and some very long posts, I wonder whether these people, all men, have family responsibilities, whether they have to go shopping, cooking, cleaning, dealing with the increasing bureaucracy in our lives. I am an Italian woman, and one could learn from Italian statistics that we Italian women work for the well-being at home much longer hours than our men. I am also wondering whether the knowledge cumulated by these men can be explained by this different social division of labour between men and women. These elements, less time and less erudition, create an unbalance and some difficulties in participation. So this is my main explanation for my own rare appearance in this listserv. But of course, this adds up to the other factors already mentioned in this thread. I conclude with noticing that my feminist approach, talking about myself, seems quite the opposite to the dominant approach in this listserv, so focused on theories and abstraction. Could this be another reason to keep silent the women?s and other socially marginalized voices in this listserv, for they/we feel this terrain as foreign? I guess that if we want to hear more of these voices, we should accept a higher mixture of practice and theory thinking, and also emotions and tensions toward transformation and change, in our discussions. And I also need to learn how to write short posts! Maria-Cristina Migliore, Ph.D Senior researcher IRES-Piemonte Torino (Italia) 2016-10-31 14:49 GMT+01:00 : > I was looking through Louis Menand?s (The Metaphysical Club: A Story of > Ideas in America) and this paragraph struck a cord in this moment of the > election dynamics unfolding and the place of gender in earlier times. > > Abolitioism arose out of the *Second Great Awakening* the evangelical > revival that swept through New England and then upstate New York between > 1800 and 1840, and that also spawned temperance, women?s rights, and other > social reform movements, along with a number of utopian and religious > sects, most famously the Mormons. The *foundations* of the abolitionalist > movement were therefore spiritual and anti-institutional. Abolitionism was > a party for people who did not believe in parties ? a paradoxical law of > attraction that turned out to be ideally suited to Unitarian, > Transcendentalist, and generally post-Calvanist culture like New England, a > culture increasingly obsessed with the moral authority of the individual > conscience. The American Anti-Slavery Society, the movement?s > organizational arm, had relatively few members, membership in an > organization being the sort of thing that tends to compromise the *inner > vision*. BUT it had many followers. > > I was struck that between 1800 and 1840 in this locale (Boston and > upstate New York) how many social reform movents (post Calvanism) > originated and unfolded to permeate American culture. Then to return to the > current election with this historical*ity in awareness. Back and forth > living presence, including women?s rights. > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: October 28, 2016 2:04 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > I would like to post something historic that I don't think has ever been > declared by the New York times prior to a US Election: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/upshot/ > presidential-polls-forecast.html > > > It feels highly relevant to this thread, because it may shine a light on > what it feels like to see a story of a woman prevailing in very neutral > language. You will note, there is nothing about her hair, nor her > appearance, nor mention of her husband. > > > And, to Huw's (probable) liking, there's a lot of statistics that show (I > hope) the inevitable. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Mon Oct 31 09:21:46 2016 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 12:21:46 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_Invitation_to_submit_to_Sociology=E2=80=99s_spe?= =?utf-8?q?cial_issue?= Message-ID: Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Sociology Date: 10/31/16 7:53 AM (GMT-05:00) To: pmocombe@mocombeian.com Subject: Invitation to submit to Sociology?s special issue Submit to our special issue to be published in 2018! View as webpage???|???Manage email alerts Share: ? ? ? Manuscript Submission Guidelines Submit your paper Email alerts About this journal Editorial board ? Submit your paper to the 2018 Sociology special issue We are pleased to invite you to contribute your paper to Sociology?s special issue, Migration and Crisis in Europe to be published in 2018 Guest-edited by Nick Dines, Nicola Montagna and Elena Vacchelli, the special issue will critically examine how the relationship between migration and different dimensions of crisis has played out in the context of Europe over the last ten years, with a particular focus on borders, labour and social reproduction. The editors are interested to explore how migration has been differently affected by, and has responded to economic, social and political crises across Europe. Deadline for submission of full papers is 13 March, 2017. Read the full call ABOUT US?? |?? CONTACT US?? |?? PRIVACY POLICY ?? |? ? UNSUBSCRIBE SAGE Offices: Los Angeles: 2455 Teller Rd Thousand Oaks, CA 91320, USA London: 1 Oliver's Yard, 55 City Road, London, EC1Y 1SP, UK. 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From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Oct 31 11:47:55 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 11:47:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: KIBM Symposium Announcement: "Influence of Early Experience on Adult Brain Organization and Function" In-Reply-To: <1EB80537-0841-47B3-A7B5-1A51771A4836@ucsd.edu> References: <1EB80537-0841-47B3-A7B5-1A51771A4836@ucsd.edu> Message-ID: Whether attending locally or via webcaste, this symposium ought to be of considerable interest to these lists. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jesse Robie Date: Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:50 AM Subject: KIBM Symposium Announcement: "Influence of Early Experience on Adult Brain Organization and Function" To: talks@cogsci.ucsd.edu To Whom It May Concern: The Kavli Institute for Brain and Mind is pleased to announce our December 2, 2016 symposium, *Influence of Early Experience on Adult Brain Organization and Function. *Please include the following text and accompanying poster image, below, in upcoming talks@cogsci.ucsd.edu announcements. Thank you! Jesse Robie Event Title: *Influence of Early Experience on Adult Brain Organization and Function* When: December 2, 2016, 1:00 - 5:30 pm Location: Conrad T. Prebys Auditorium, Salk Institute Registration: Admission is free but registration is required (see website) Website: http://kibm.ucsd.edu/event/influence-early-experience- adult-brain-organization-and-function Webcast: A live webcast of this symposium will also available The Kavli Institute for Brain and Mind (KIBM) invites you to attend *Influence of Early Experience on Adult Brain Organization and Function, *a scientific symposium on December 2, from 1:00-5:30, at the Conrad T. Prebys Auditorium, Salk Institute. Our panel of distinguished experts will explore how early experience impacts adult brain structure and function, as well as to help clarify the extent of this influence and the mechanisms by which developmental neuronal plasticity affects the adult brain. They will address additional questions such as: How do events of early development show up in our behavior as we age? What are the opportunities and risks during early development and their consequences for adult behavior? Can the identification of windows of ?critical periods? in early development be used to reopen these windows at later points in the lifetime to enhance or regenerate adult function? The developmental origins of neurological and psychiatric disorders will frame many of the issues being addressed in this symposium. Presented by The Kavli Institute for Brain and Mind (KIBM). Rusty Gage, Salk Institute, and Nicholas Spitzer, UC San Diego, Co-Directors. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: KAVLI_Early_Experience_Poster_WEB.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 360167 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20161031/9207692b/attachment.jpg From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Oct 31 14:13:49 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 08:13:49 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion In-Reply-To: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> References: <1477893000984.89344@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, unsure where to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" questions in the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working on. In this case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment which is almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big Bang. But perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start (the Big Bang always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the origins of life). Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just thoughtfully sent around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves a really big gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is largely filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean: a) "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, 'identity' is self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be sustained." (p. 189) b) "It is notable that this construction of a good student, though familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest, excitement, or engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193) c) "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm confident', 'I'm good at this', and 'I can pull this off' are interpreted in the context of the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their statements index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for being good in math or science that includes the actor identity characteristics of being able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." (193) In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by society", "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context of the figured world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go against the data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's views as a tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that contradicts my data: that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the theory contradicts my own personal theories. I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also don't believe that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think the word "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and engagement as much as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than others and get an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is actually "I" and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking about, and therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation between their inner states and the activity at hand or between the activity at hand and the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world of neoliberal results and prospects. But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good opportunity for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in both Vygotsky and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you" relationship in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I can make up any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history, particularly if I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and a class over which I have very little power at all? When does the interpersonal somehow become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a strange ghost when I look in the mirror? The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere between the beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I think that's just because it's where they are looking. We can probably find the roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to (Vygotsky) the moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at one and takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the moment when the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying clauses ("I'm confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can pull this off") and mental ones ("I get it"). (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!) David Kellogg Macquarie University On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > Dear xmca'ers, > > > I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, which is now > available open access at the T&F MCA pages com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>. > > > After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful paper (which > still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and ontogenesis), we > will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret Eisenhart and > Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science Education in > the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the whole issue, > offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together > cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity in this case). > > > Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US elections > (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy). Meanwhile, I > share the link 2016.1188962> to the article (see above), and also attach it as PDF. > ??Good read! > > > Alfredo > > From a.j.gil@iped.uio.no Mon Oct 31 16:59:05 2016 From: a.j.gil@iped.uio.no (Alfredo Jornet Gil) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 23:59:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> <58174c10.4223620a.cb56a.39b6@mx.google.com>, Message-ID: <1477958345468.17266@iped.uio.no> Thanks Maria Cristina for sharing your experience. I too believe that the division of labor in family care is a very important aspect of the problem. It has certainly affected (and is affecting) me in very important ways, although I am no woman (and I hope other women will chime in to make due justice to your post). I will nonetheless share my experience, which I think refracts the phenomenon you describe but from a different prism. I begun my PhD with a one year old girl (now 7), and had a second baby right before my post doc (which I am in the middle of). My partner, a woman raised in a (Spanish) home where dad worked at a fabric for 12 hours 6 days a week and mum worked home 16 or 18 hours 7 days a week, was nonetheless educated (by uncles and a progressive environment in her town) for and heartedly embraced the ideal of having a more equalitarian society. She very early on worked on to show me how unbalanced our contributions were to family care, and it took us lots of fights and struggle to begin realising how much more I could be doing to begin getting closer to an equal contribution. I thank her for all her effort to help me help her and, in doing so, help myself. In the meantime, I have learned a lot about gender and academia. An example has been troubles in socialising with colleagues, as I have found it hard to make them (specially men) understand that, although it would be great to join for a conversation, coffee, or beer, it simply is impossible for me to call home and say, "hey, I'll be a couple of hours late," specially given we live in foreign countries where we do not have relatives that give us a hand. Mum has been with a baby since wake up, and anyone having been for a whole day with a baby/toddler should know that 8 or 10 hours work are luxury relaxing when compared. Yet, I often felt guilty for not acceding to spend more time with colleagues, often feeling (being treated as if) I was expected to be able to find more free time cause I was no woman. Of course, most of the cases in which I felt like that were not so intended by others. Gendered issues are objective facts, not just facts of awareness. As I have come to dedicate much more care to family, I have also been forced to let go academic opportunities that in the past I would have gone for no matter the price (a price my family would have had to pay). It has been made clear to me that, if there are deadlines, whether I had to attend family or not does not count. If I(you) commit to an academic project, it does not make any difference whether I(you) have a family or not. If I(you) commit, then sudden sick children or partner, school holidays, or simply the need to take few days off to save family from total depression count against you. You either should not commit or should find someone else to do the job... Someone else without family commitments will be in a much better position to take them. That may be fair or not. In either case, deadlines are just deadlines. For sure they help us set priorities right. Things are changing, of course, and Norway (the country I use to work) is a best example of a place where equal support is priority, specially compared to here (North America). Perhaps xmca could be seen as a venue free of deadlines and other pressures that may prevent participation in scholarly informed life by those committed to caring for what women have cared for long time on their own. Clearly it is a venue where experiences and not just generalisations can be shared. To close following on your last comment, clearly writing shorter posts is my next big thing to learn (I try, really!) Alfredo ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Maria Cristina Migliore Sent: 31 October 2016 17:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse Hello to everyone, I am a woman who likes following the discussion on xmca, but has intervened into xmca discussions only once, even if I enrolled five or six years ago. I thank Mike Cole to have raised the issue of few female voices on this listserv. This is a very complex issue. I would approach this topic by referring to my own experience in this listserv. This is a typical feminist approach: starting from our own experience and avoiding generalization. I think that one of the reasons that keeps me out from contributing to the interesting debates here in this listserv is time. When I read so many posts from the same people, and some very long posts, I wonder whether these people, all men, have family responsibilities, whether they have to go shopping, cooking, cleaning, dealing with the increasing bureaucracy in our lives. I am an Italian woman, and one could learn from Italian statistics that we Italian women work for the well-being at home much longer hours than our men. I am also wondering whether the knowledge cumulated by these men can be explained by this different social division of labour between men and women. These elements, less time and less erudition, create an unbalance and some difficulties in participation. So this is my main explanation for my own rare appearance in this listserv. But of course, this adds up to the other factors already mentioned in this thread. I conclude with noticing that my feminist approach, talking about myself, seems quite the opposite to the dominant approach in this listserv, so focused on theories and abstraction. Could this be another reason to keep silent the women?s and other socially marginalized voices in this listserv, for they/we feel this terrain as foreign? I guess that if we want to hear more of these voices, we should accept a higher mixture of practice and theory thinking, and also emotions and tensions toward transformation and change, in our discussions. And I also need to learn how to write short posts! Maria-Cristina Migliore, Ph.D Senior researcher IRES-Piemonte Torino (Italia) 2016-10-31 14:49 GMT+01:00 : > I was looking through Louis Menand?s (The Metaphysical Club: A Story of > Ideas in America) and this paragraph struck a cord in this moment of the > election dynamics unfolding and the place of gender in earlier times. > > Abolitioism arose out of the *Second Great Awakening* the evangelical > revival that swept through New England and then upstate New York between > 1800 and 1840, and that also spawned temperance, women?s rights, and other > social reform movements, along with a number of utopian and religious > sects, most famously the Mormons. The *foundations* of the abolitionalist > movement were therefore spiritual and anti-institutional. Abolitionism was > a party for people who did not believe in parties ? a paradoxical law of > attraction that turned out to be ideally suited to Unitarian, > Transcendentalist, and generally post-Calvanist culture like New England, a > culture increasingly obsessed with the moral authority of the individual > conscience. The American Anti-Slavery Society, the movement?s > organizational arm, had relatively few members, membership in an > organization being the sort of thing that tends to compromise the *inner > vision*. BUT it had many followers. > > I was struck that between 1800 and 1840 in this locale (Boston and > upstate New York) how many social reform movents (post Calvanism) > originated and unfolded to permeate American culture. Then to return to the > current election with this historical*ity in awareness. Back and forth > living presence, including women?s rights. > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: October 28, 2016 2:04 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > I would like to post something historic that I don't think has ever been > declared by the New York times prior to a US Election: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/upshot/ > presidential-polls-forecast.html > > > It feels highly relevant to this thread, because it may shine a light on > what it feels like to see a story of a woman prevailing in very neutral > language. You will note, there is nothing about her hair, nor her > appearance, nor mention of her husband. > > > And, to Huw's (probable) liking, there's a lot of statistics that show (I > hope) the inevitable. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Oct 31 20:36:41 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 21:36:41 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse In-Reply-To: <1477958345468.17266@iped.uio.no> References: <1477604046100.32976@iped.uio.no> <1477637094283.80763@iped.uio.no> <1477662717568.90322@iped.uio.no> <1CF09B3A-DF07-4538-A198-FDB1B1EDE432@gmail.com> <58174c10.4223620a.cb56a.39b6@mx.google.com> <1477958345468.17266@iped.uio.no> Message-ID: <1C8C7EE0-BA71-412A-8364-5D6C5170F962@gmail.com> Longer posts are fine, if they are a good read. The latest have been quite good. I?m no good at long ones, though I often write them and, wisely, don?t post them. I have over a hundred such in my ?drafts? folder I think of as a journal. Crafting ?on the fly" a post with theory and narrative artfully intertwined is what a good read is about. The chat is addictive because it comes with real gold nuggets in a random sort of way. You never know when the zinger will come. I think there?s been some zing just lately. Henry > On Oct 31, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote: > > Thanks Maria Cristina for sharing your experience. I too believe that the division of labor in family care is a very important aspect of the problem. It has certainly affected (and is affecting) me in very important ways, although I am no woman (and I hope other women will chime in to make due justice to your post). I will nonetheless share my experience, which I think refracts the phenomenon you describe but from a different prism. > > I begun my PhD with a one year old girl (now 7), and had a second baby right before my post doc (which I am in the middle of). My partner, a woman raised in a (Spanish) home where dad worked at a fabric for 12 hours 6 days a week and mum worked home 16 or 18 hours 7 days a week, was nonetheless educated (by uncles and a progressive environment in her town) for and heartedly embraced the ideal of having a more equalitarian society. She very early on worked on to show me how unbalanced our contributions were to family care, and it took us lots of fights and struggle to begin realising how much more I could be doing to begin getting closer to an equal contribution. I thank her for all her effort to help me help her and, in doing so, help myself. > > In the meantime, I have learned a lot about gender and academia. An example has been troubles in socialising with colleagues, as I have found it hard to make them (specially men) understand that, although it would be great to join for a conversation, coffee, or beer, it simply is impossible for me to call home and say, "hey, I'll be a couple of hours late," specially given we live in foreign countries where we do not have relatives that give us a hand. Mum has been with a baby since wake up, and anyone having been for a whole day with a baby/toddler should know that 8 or 10 hours work are luxury relaxing when compared. Yet, I often felt guilty for not acceding to spend more time with colleagues, often feeling (being treated as if) I was expected to be able to find more free time cause I was no woman. Of course, most of the cases in which I felt like that were not so intended by others. Gendered issues are objective facts, not just facts of awareness. > > As I have come to dedicate much more care to family, I have also been forced to let go academic opportunities that in the past I would have gone for no matter the price (a price my family would have had to pay). It has been made clear to me that, if there are deadlines, whether I had to attend family or not does not count. If I(you) commit to an academic project, it does not make any difference whether I(you) have a family or not. If I(you) commit, then sudden sick children or partner, school holidays, or simply the need to take few days off to save family from total depression count against you. You either should not commit or should find someone else to do the job... Someone else without family commitments will be in a much better position to take them. That may be fair or not. In either case, deadlines are just deadlines. For sure they help us set priorities right. > > Things are changing, of course, and Norway (the country I use to work) is a best example of a place where equal support is priority, specially compared to here (North America). > > Perhaps xmca could be seen as a venue free of deadlines and other pressures that may prevent participation in scholarly informed life by those committed to caring for what women have cared for long time on their own. Clearly it is a venue where experiences and not just generalisations can be shared. > > To close following on your last comment, clearly writing shorter posts is my next big thing to learn (I try, really!) > Alfredo > > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Maria Cristina Migliore > Sent: 31 October 2016 17:10 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse > > Hello to everyone, > > > I am a woman who likes following the discussion on xmca, but has intervened > into xmca discussions only once, even if I enrolled five or six years ago. > > > I thank Mike Cole to have raised the issue of few female voices on this > listserv. > > > This is a very complex issue. I would approach this topic by referring to > my own experience in this listserv. This is a typical feminist approach: > starting from our own experience and avoiding generalization. > > > I think that one of the reasons that keeps me out from contributing to the > interesting debates here in this listserv is time. When I read so many > posts from the same people, and some very long posts, I wonder whether > these people, all men, have family responsibilities, whether they have to > go shopping, cooking, cleaning, dealing with the increasing bureaucracy in > our lives. I am an Italian woman, and one could learn from Italian > statistics that we Italian women work for the well-being at home much > longer hours than our men. > > > I am also wondering whether the knowledge cumulated by these men can be > explained by this different social division of labour between men and > women. > > > These elements, less time and less erudition, create an unbalance and some > difficulties in participation. > > > So this is my main explanation for my own rare appearance in this listserv. > But of course, this adds up to the other factors already mentioned in this > thread. > > > I conclude with noticing that my feminist approach, talking about myself, > seems quite the opposite to the dominant approach in this listserv, so > focused on theories and abstraction. Could this be another reason to keep > silent the women?s and other socially marginalized voices in this listserv, > for they/we feel this terrain as foreign? > > > I guess that if we want to hear more of these voices, we should accept a > higher mixture of practice and theory thinking, and also emotions and > tensions toward transformation and change, in our discussions. > > > And I also need to learn how to write short posts! > > > Maria-Cristina Migliore, Ph.D > > Senior researcher > > IRES-Piemonte > > Torino (Italia) > > > > > > 2016-10-31 14:49 GMT+01:00 : > >> I was looking through Louis Menand?s (The Metaphysical Club: A Story of >> Ideas in America) and this paragraph struck a cord in this moment of the >> election dynamics unfolding and the place of gender in earlier times. >> >> Abolitioism arose out of the *Second Great Awakening* the evangelical >> revival that swept through New England and then upstate New York between >> 1800 and 1840, and that also spawned temperance, women?s rights, and other >> social reform movements, along with a number of utopian and religious >> sects, most famously the Mormons. The *foundations* of the abolitionalist >> movement were therefore spiritual and anti-institutional. Abolitionism was >> a party for people who did not believe in parties ? a paradoxical law of >> attraction that turned out to be ideally suited to Unitarian, >> Transcendentalist, and generally post-Calvanist culture like New England, a >> culture increasingly obsessed with the moral authority of the individual >> conscience. The American Anti-Slavery Society, the movement?s >> organizational arm, had relatively few members, membership in an >> organization being the sort of thing that tends to compromise the *inner >> vision*. BUT it had many followers. >> >> I was struck that between 1800 and 1840 in this locale (Boston and >> upstate New York) how many social reform movents (post Calvanism) >> originated and unfolded to permeate American culture. Then to return to the >> current election with this historical*ity in awareness. Back and forth >> living presence, including women?s rights. >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: Annalisa Aguilar >> Sent: October 28, 2016 2:04 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Analysis of Gender in early xmca discourse >> >> I would like to post something historic that I don't think has ever been >> declared by the New York times prior to a US Election: >> >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/upshot/ >> presidential-polls-forecast.html >> >> >> It feels highly relevant to this thread, because it may shine a light on >> what it feels like to see a story of a woman prevailing in very neutral >> language. You will note, there is nothing about her hair, nor her >> appearance, nor mention of her husband. >> >> >> And, to Huw's (probable) liking, there's a lot of statistics that show (I >> hope) the inevitable. >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> > > > -- > > Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. > > Senior Researcher > > > IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte > > Via Nizza, 18 > > 10125 Torino ? Italia > > Tel. +39 011 6666463 > > cell. 348 0454272 > > Fax. +39 011 6696012 > > e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it > > skype mariacristinamigliore > > IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it > > LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore > > personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) > > personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) > > > > *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita > nella tua regione.* > > *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html > * > > *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this > e-mail > > Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi > allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? > destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale > ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria > responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore > o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo > alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di > tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in > sicurezza. > > This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may > also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is > intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this > email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do > not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank > you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure > or error-free.