[Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started

[David Kellogg]

Larry:

The article doesn't use "object" at all. The word "work" is used to refer
to classwork or schoolwork done by high school students.

I sometimes work with data from infants, toddlers, and preschoolers, so I
can't really afford the belief that theories we use in research have to be
understandable to our research subjects in every detail; I think it's
perfectly okay to use a theory as a "lens" so long as you understand that
you are the one on the receiving end of a distorted view.

But I think that when we read an article, we really DO have to understand
it on its own terms and not on ours. So I am assuming that "work" doesn't
mean all the things that Larry is talking about: it just means school work.
Actually, Larry, most of the time when the authors use "work" it is used as
a verb.

David Kellogg
Macquarie University



On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 9:46 AM, <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Welcome Margaret and Carrie,
>
> You asked for possible alternative lens for viewing your data that you
> were interpreting.
> I will offer a reflection on the contrast between the notion of [works]
> and [objects] as resources.
>
> A [work] is always referring to the human touch: the word itself suggests
> this human touch, for a work is always a work of man [or God].  An [object]
> on the other hand can be a work or can be a natural object. To use the word
> [object] in reference to a [work] blurs the boundary markings. One needs to
> understand the [work] not as an object but *as* a [work].  The deciphering
> or interpreting processes generate the meaning *of* the [work].
>
>
> How might this make a difference in modes of thought? An exemplar is a
> work of literature. A work of literature is not an object we understand by
> conceptualizing or analyzing the work. The work is a *voice* and *through*
> hearing [rather than the mode of seeing] we *understand* the work.
>
> Notice the emphasis and scope shift from the object as mode of analyzing
> towards the work as speaking.
>
> An alternative mode of reflection
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Margaret A Eisenhart
> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 12:33 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the
> opportunity to engage with you about our article, “Hollowed Out.”  We also
> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream of
> thinking here!
>
> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others’ ideas about the
> link between our theory and our data.  On this topic, we would like to
> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students were making
> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them through the
> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured worlds are
> resources for identity and that the students' words to us reflected
> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty serious
> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what theories
> others would use to explain the data we presented.
>
> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of “exemplars” we
> might turn to.
>
> We look forward to hearing your thoughts.
>
>
> Margaret Eisenhart
>
>
>
> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens as this
> >term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning and sense)
> >of this month’s article.
> >The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) meaning
> >and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for developing a
> >deeper sens of identity.
> >The article concludes with the implication that the work of social
> >justice within educational institutions is not about improving
> >educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the study
> >are about *reorganizing* the identities – particulary
> >identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can
> >articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond).
> >
> >I would say this is taking an ethical stand?.
> >
> >I will now turn to page 189 and the section (identity-in-context) to
> >amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds).
> >This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. That is
> >identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of person one is
> >or has become in responding to (external) circumstances.
> >These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the
> >organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries (figured worlds)
> >that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices
> >
> >Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and
> >culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are recognized
> >as (exemplars).
> >
> >As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological
> >(imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* to *what*
> >goes on in the directions we take together.
> >
> >Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we take.
> >The realm of the ethical turn
> >What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper ethical turn
> >that offers more than a hollowed-out answer.
> >Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as well as
> >living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as beacons of
> >hope exemplifying *who* we are.
> >
> >My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the neoliberal
> >imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from their
> >slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries
> >
> >Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> >
> >From: mike cole
> >Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM
> >To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
> >
> >Alfredo--
> >
> >for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send them
> >here:
> >
> >http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/
> >
> >I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web site
> >welcome, although not clear how long they will take to implement.
> >
> >mike
> >
> >On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion:
> >>
> >> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and Science
> >> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret Eisenhart
> >>and
> >> Carrie Allen.
> >>
> >> The article is open access and will continue to be so during the
> >> discussion time at this link.
> >>
> >> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I shared the
> >>link
> >> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to a halt
> >>until
> >> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and Carrie
> >>the
> >> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but I also
> >> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as soon as
> >> they ​​wanted.
> >>
> >> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion of an
> >> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An American
> >>Tragedy"
> >> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark day for the
> >> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some grounds for
> >> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home now, as
> >>Mike
> >> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of mind" and
> >>that
> >> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal
> >>organisation of
> >> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to Trump's
> >> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of everyday life.
> >>
> >> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on women's
> >>scholar
> >> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the
> >>discussions
> >> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I hope this
> >> thread gives joys and wisdom to all.
> >>
> >> Alfredo
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> >> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> >> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> >>
> >> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those still
> >> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us next
> >>week!
> >> Alfredo
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> >> on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> >> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> >>
> >> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be
> >> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at the
> >> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade into
> >> before she has had a word.
> >>
> >> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until next
> >>week
> >> to think about it.
> >>
> >> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to catch up!
> >>
> >> mike
> >>
> >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip
> >><Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu
> >> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > David & Larry, everyone else ...
> >> >
> >> > by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the data in
> >> > this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the
> >>processes
> >> of
> >> > how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the externally
> >> > imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using
> >>theories
> >> of
> >> > social practices on how identity developed in context.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > David, you reject the theories.  or so i understand your position. as
> >>you
> >> > write: It's that the theory
> >> >
> >> > contradicts my own personal theories.
> >> >
> >> > are you also rejecting the data as well?  it seems as if you are
> >> > suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point (in the
> >>case
> >> of
> >> > Lorena) somewhere between the
> >> > beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I think
> >> > that's just because it's where they are looking.
> >> >
> >> > you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it could be
> >>traced
> >> > back to infancy.
> >> >
> >> > do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult
> >> > practitioners within the context of the high schools?  that this
> >> narrative
> >> > is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather could be
> >> traced
> >> > back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in particular
> >> > massachusettes, where the practices of public american education
> >>began?
> >> >
> >> > to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen study, what
> >> > theories would you have used?
> >> >
> >> > phillip
> >> >
> >> > ________________________________
> >> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> >> > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM
> >> > To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> >> >
> >> > Margaret and Carrie,
> >> > Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow
> >> > *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning and
> >>sense. I
> >> > will add the French word *sens* which always includes *direction*
> >>within
> >> > meaning and sense.
> >> >
> >> > David, your response that what our theory makes sens of depends on
> >>where
> >> > we are looking makes sens to me.
> >> > You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and me)
> >>way of
> >> > authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical ways of
> >>being
> >> > immersed in sens. The article refers to the *historical-in-person*.
> >> >
> >> > My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description of the
> >> > sociocultural as a response to *externally changing circumstances*  as
> >> the
> >> > process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190).
> >> >
> >> > The article says:
> >> >
> >> > This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other Sociocultural
> >> > researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that is,
> >>learning
> >> > that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a particular
> >> > context.  Identities conceived in this way are not stable or fixed. As
> >> > *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may the
> >> > identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & Skinner, 1997).
> >> >
> >> > In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes that
> >>start
> >> > the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external*
> >> > circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the importance of
> >>the
> >> > external but do question if looking primarily or primordially to the
> >> > external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap in our
> >> > notions of *sens*.
> >> >
> >> > If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* and
> >>highly
> >> > visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity.
> >> > A gap in *sens*.
> >> >
> >> > To be continued by others...
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> >> >
> >> > From: David Kellogg
> >> > Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM
> >> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> >> >
> >> > I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the
> >> > Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, unsure
> >>where
> >> > to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" questions
> >>in
> >> > the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working on. In
> >> this
> >> > case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment which is
> >> > almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big Bang. But
> >> > perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start (the Big
> >>Bang
> >> > always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the origins
> >>of
> >> > life).
> >> >
> >> > Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just thoughtfully
> >>sent
> >> > around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves a really
> >> big
> >> > gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is largely
> >> > filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean:
> >> >
> >> > a)    "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, 'identity' is
> >> > self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be
> >>sustained."
> >> > (p. 189)
> >> >
> >> > b)  "It is notable that this construction of a good student, though
> >> > familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest,
> >>excitement,
> >> or
> >> > engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193)
> >> >
> >> > c)  "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm confident',
> >>'I'm
> >> > good at this', and  'I can pull this off' are interpreted in the
> >>context
> >> of
> >> > the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their
> >>statements
> >> > index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for being
> >>good
> >> in
> >> > math or science that includes the actor identity characteristics of
> >>being
> >> > able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, do it
> >> without
> >> > help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." (193)
> >> >
> >> > In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by society",
> >> > "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context of the
> >> figured
> >> > world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go against
> >> the
> >> > data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's views as
> >>a
> >> > tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that contradicts my
> >>data:
> >> > that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the theory
> >> > contradicts my own personal theories.
> >> >
> >> > I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also don't
> >>believe
> >> > that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think the word
> >> > "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and engagement as
> >>much
> >> > as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the
> >>work
> >> > quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than others and
> >>get
> >> > an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is actually
> >>"I"
> >> > and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking about, and
> >> > therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation between
> >>their
> >> > inner states and the activity at hand  or between the activity at hand
> >> and
> >> > the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world of
> >> neoliberal
> >> > results and prospects.
> >> >
> >> > But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good
> >>opportunity
> >> > for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in both
> >>Vygotsky
> >> > and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a
> >> > historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you"
> >> relationship
> >> > in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I can make
> >>up
> >> > any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history,
> >>particularly
> >> if
> >> > I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and a class
> >> over
> >> > which I have very little power at all? When does the interpersonal
> >> somehow
> >> > become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a strange
> >> > ghost when I look in the mirror?
> >> >
> >> > The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere between
> >>the
> >> > beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I think
> >> > that's just because it's where they are looking. We can probably find
> >>the
> >> > roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the
> >> > historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to (Vygotsky)
> >>the
> >> > moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at one and
> >> > takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the moment
> >>when
> >> > the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying clauses ("I'm
> >> > confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can pull this
> >> off")
> >> > and mental ones ("I get it").
> >> >
> >> > (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!)
> >> >
> >> > David Kellogg
> >> > Macquarie University
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
> >><a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> >> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Dear xmca'ers,
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, which is
> >>now
> >> > > available open access at the T&F MCA pages<http://www.tandfonline.
> >> > > com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful paper
> >>(which
> >> > > still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and
> >>ontogenesis),
> >> we
> >> > > will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret Eisenhart
> >>and
> >> > > Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science
> >>Education
> >> in
> >> > > the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the whole
> >> issue,
> >> > > offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together
> >> > > cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity in this
> >> > case).
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US
> >>elections
> >> > > (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy).
> >>Meanwhile, I
> >> > > share the link<http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039
> .
> >> > > 2016.1188962>  to the article (see above), and also attach it as
> >>PDF.
> >> > > ??Good read!
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Alfredo
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>