From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jul 1 10:50:06 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 17:50:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> Message-ID: <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over the horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they interpret the sign. Martin > On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will understand what is being referenced! > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how in Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? I think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, but it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious >>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the representamen >>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a >>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a dualism as >>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). >> >> >> > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jul 1 10:57:30 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 10:57:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: The projectile for might be called imagination? On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over the > horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they interpret the > sign. > > Martin > > > > > > On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using > the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will > understand what is being referenced! > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how in > Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? I > think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, but > it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >>> > >>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious > >>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the > representamen > >>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a > >>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a dualism > as > >>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jul 1 10:58:32 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 10:58:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Ooops, the projectile *force *might be called imagination? On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:57 AM, mike cole wrote: > The projectile for might be called imagination? > > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > >> Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over the >> horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they interpret the >> sign. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> > On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> > >> > :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using >> the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will >> understand what is being referenced! >> > >> > Andy >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > Andy Blunden >> > http://home.mira.net/~andy >> > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> > On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> >> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how in >> Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? I >> think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, but >> it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious >> >>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the >> representamen >> >>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a >> >>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a >> dualism as >> >>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jul 1 11:11:10 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 18:11:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <512F669E-0C41-4EFA-8006-C370FF8F6B18@uniandes.edu.co> Affirmative. Except, as you know Mike, this projection that is interpretation isn?t a force, it?s an act (in the non-technical sense); an aspect of a project (Andy will be happy to hear). > On Jul 1, 2016, at 12:58 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Ooops, the projectile *force *might be called imagination? > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:57 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> The projectile for might be called imagination? >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: >> >>> Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over the >>> horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they interpret the >>> sign. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using >>> the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will >>> understand what is being referenced! >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>> On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>>>> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how in >>> Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? I >>> think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, but >>> it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious >>>>>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the >>> representamen >>>>>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a >>>>>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a >>> dualism as >>>>>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jul 1 11:14:59 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 11:14:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <512F669E-0C41-4EFA-8006-C370FF8F6B18@uniandes.edu.co> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <512F669E-0C41-4EFA-8006-C370FF8F6B18@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: I am focusing the verb project*ing. *An action without he expenditure of energy? A way to bridge between here and over the horizon? mike On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Affirmative. > > Except, as you know Mike, this projection that is interpretation isn?t a > force, it?s an act (in the non-technical sense); an aspect of a project > (Andy will be happy to hear). > > > On Jul 1, 2016, at 12:58 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > Ooops, the projectile *force *might be called imagination? > > > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:57 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> The projectile for might be called imagination? > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Martin John Packer < > >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > >> > >>> Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over > the > >>> horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they > interpret the > >>> sign. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>>> > >>>> :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using > >>> the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will > >>> understand what is being referenced! > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> Andy Blunden > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy > >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > >>>> On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >>>>> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how > in > >>> Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? > I > >>> think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, > but > >>> it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious > >>>>>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the > >>> representamen > >>>>>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a > >>>>>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a > >>> dualism as > >>>>>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jul 1 11:20:19 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 18:20:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <512F669E-0C41-4EFA-8006-C370FF8F6B18@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: ...and a way to bridge between present (& past) and future. Horizons are spatial, temporal, and more. > On Jul 1, 2016, at 1:14 PM, mike cole wrote: > > I am focusing the verb project*ing. *An action without he expenditure of > energy? A way to bridge between here and over the horizon? > mike > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Affirmative. >> >> Except, as you know Mike, this projection that is interpretation isn?t a >> force, it?s an act (in the non-technical sense); an aspect of a project >> (Andy will be happy to hear). >> >>> On Jul 1, 2016, at 12:58 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Ooops, the projectile *force *might be called imagination? >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:57 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> The projectile for might be called imagination? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Martin John Packer < >>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over >> the >>>>> horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they >> interpret the >>>>> sign. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using >>>>> the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will >>>>> understand what is being referenced! >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>>>> On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>>>>>> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how >> in >>>>> Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? >> I >>>>> think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, >> but >>>>> it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious >>>>>>>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the >>>>> representamen >>>>>>>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a >>>>>>>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a >>>>> dualism as >>>>>>>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jul 1 12:56:13 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 12:56:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <512F669E-0C41-4EFA-8006-C370FF8F6B18@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <5776cb0b.0804420a.7cc3c.30a4@mx.google.com> Martin Horizons are spatial horizons are temporal and we travel within these horizons as meaning potential. James Ma says (if I read him as intended) that meaning potential s are (object potentials). This leaves the (and more?) Now to introduce metaphoricity that moves through spatial and temporal imaginal ways. How is metaphoricity related to literal ways of spatiality and temporality within horizon? Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Martin John Packer From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jul 1 14:18:44 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 21:18:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <5776cb0b.0804420a.7cc3c.30a4@mx.google.com> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <512F669E-0C41-4EFA-8006-C370FF8F6B18@uniandes.edu.co> <5776cb0b.0804420a.7cc3c.30a4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Yes, I agree that metaphor offers another kind(s) of horizon. Martin On Jul 1, 2016, at 2:56 PM, Lplarry > wrote: Martin Horizons are spatial horizons are temporal and we travel within these horizons as meaning potential. James Ma says (if I read him as intended) that meaning potential s are (object potentials). This leaves the (and more?) Now to introduce metaphoricity that moves through spatial and temporal imaginal ways. How is metaphoricity related to literal ways of spatiality and temporality within horizon? Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Martin John Packer Sent: July 1, 2016 11:22 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf ...and a way to bridge between present (& past) and future. Horizons are spatial, temporal, and more. > On Jul 1, 2016, at 1:14 PM, mike cole > wrote: > > I am focusing the verb project*ing. *An action without he expenditure of > energy? A way to bridge between here and over the horizon? > mike > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Martin John Packer >> wrote: > >> Affirmative. >> >> Except, as you know Mike, this projection that is interpretation isn?t a >> force, it?s an act (in the non-technical sense); an aspect of a project >> (Andy will be happy to hear). >> >>> On Jul 1, 2016, at 12:58 PM, mike cole > wrote: >>> >>> Ooops, the projectile *force *might be called imagination? >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:57 AM, mike cole > wrote: >>> >>>> The projectile for might be called imagination? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Martin John Packer < >>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over >> the >>>>> horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they >> interpret the >>>>> sign. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using >>>>> the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will >>>>> understand what is being referenced! >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>>>> On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>>>>>> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how >> in >>>>> Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? >> I >>>>> think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, >> but >>>>> it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious >>>>>>>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the >>>>> representamen >>>>>>>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a >>>>>>>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a >>>>> dualism as >>>>>>>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Jul 1 17:07:38 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 09:07:38 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin, So I'm wondering: does the "over the horizon"-ness of the object and the appearance/reality quality of the situation lead us back to phenomena/noumena? I know you are committed non-dualist but I don't understand how to fit these moves together. Seems like "over the horizon" takes us back to Kant's idea of the un-knowability of the object. I'd love to hear more. -greg On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 2:50 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over the > horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they interpret the > sign. > > Martin > > > > > > On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using > the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will > understand what is being referenced! > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how in > Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? I > think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, but > it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >>> > >>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious > >>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the > representamen > >>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a > >>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a dualism > as > >>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jul 1 18:18:39 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:18:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: No, Greg, because things can and do come over the horizon! What?s over the horizon does not appear now, but it can in the future. The dark cloud is a sign of rain. There is rain, perhaps, over the horizon. When the rain arrives, it is a sign of a cold July. When a cold July has arrived, it is a sign of El Ni?o. It appears that rain is coming; then the rain is real. It appears that July will be cold; then that becomes a reality. Not necessarily, of course: the reality can be different than what appears to be real. But we are reading signs all the time. Imagining what the future will bring. And then it does! (Or doesn?t.) Martin > On Jul 1, 2016, at 7:07 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Martin, > So I'm wondering: does the "over the horizon"-ness of the object and the > appearance/reality quality of the situation lead us back to > phenomena/noumena? > I know you are committed non-dualist but I don't understand how to fit > these moves together. > Seems like "over the horizon" takes us back to Kant's idea of the > un-knowability of the object. > I'd love to hear more. > -greg > > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 2:50 AM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over the >> horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they interpret the >> sign. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> >>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using >> the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will >> understand what is being referenced! >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>>> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how in >> Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? I >> think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, but >> it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious >>>>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the >> representamen >>>>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a >>>>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a dualism >> as >>>>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Jul 1 18:32:08 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:32:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> On reflection, perhaps it would be clearer to say that? ... what is beyond the horizon can come over the horizon, and appear. Martin > On Jul 1, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > No, Greg, because things can and do come over the horizon! What?s over the horizon does not appear now, but it can in the future. > > The dark cloud is a sign of rain. There is rain, perhaps, over the horizon. When the rain arrives, it is a sign of a cold July. When a cold July has arrived, it is a sign of El Ni?o. > > It appears that rain is coming; then the rain is real. It appears that July will be cold; then that becomes a reality. Not necessarily, of course: the reality can be different than what appears to be real. But we are reading signs all the time. Imagining what the future will bring. And then it does! (Or doesn?t.) > > Martin > > >> On Jul 1, 2016, at 7:07 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> Martin, >> So I'm wondering: does the "over the horizon"-ness of the object and the >> appearance/reality quality of the situation lead us back to >> phenomena/noumena? >> I know you are committed non-dualist but I don't understand how to fit >> these moves together. >> Seems like "over the horizon" takes us back to Kant's idea of the >> un-knowability of the object. >> I'd love to hear more. >> -greg >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 2:50 AM, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >> >>> Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over the >>> horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they interpret the >>> sign. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using >>> the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will >>> understand what is being referenced! >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>> On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>>>> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how in >>> Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? I >>> think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, but >>> it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious >>>>>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the >>> representamen >>>>>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a >>>>>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a dualism >>> as >>>>>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sat Jul 2 06:17:32 2016 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 09:17:32 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Semioticians, parse this please In-Reply-To: References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu> Message-ID: <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu> Please take a look at this disturbing but real phenomenon: http://www.alistdaily.com/media/sony-pictures-kicks-off-vr-entertainment-business-ghostbusters/ Full disclosure: this guy is my son. How did this happen? Helena Helena Worthen 21 San Mateo Road Berkeley, CA 94707 hworthen@illinois.edu Vietnam blog is at: helenaworthen.wordpress.com 510-828-2745 From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Jul 2 06:35:27 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 22:35:27 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Aha, so not always "over the horizon". But what about your original comment to Andy: "Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over the horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they interpret the sign." Does the object of the word "object" ever appear? Or is the object of "object" always over the horizon? Still figuring. -greg On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > On reflection, perhaps it would be clearer to say that? > > ... what is beyond the horizon can come over the horizon, and appear. > > Martin > > > On Jul 1, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > > No, Greg, because things can and do come over the horizon! What?s over > the horizon does not appear now, but it can in the future. > > > > The dark cloud is a sign of rain. There is rain, perhaps, over the > horizon. When the rain arrives, it is a sign of a cold July. When a cold > July has arrived, it is a sign of El Ni?o. > > > > It appears that rain is coming; then the rain is real. It appears that > July will be cold; then that becomes a reality. Not necessarily, of course: > the reality can be different than what appears to be real. But we are > reading signs all the time. Imagining what the future will bring. And then > it does! (Or doesn?t.) > > > > Martin > > > > > >> On Jul 1, 2016, at 7:07 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> > >> Martin, > >> So I'm wondering: does the "over the horizon"-ness of the object and the > >> appearance/reality quality of the situation lead us back to > >> phenomena/noumena? > >> I know you are committed non-dualist but I don't understand how to fit > >> these moves together. > >> Seems like "over the horizon" takes us back to Kant's idea of the > >> un-knowability of the object. > >> I'd love to hear more. > >> -greg > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 2:50 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over > the > >>> horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they > interpret the > >>> sign. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>>> > >>>> :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using > >>> the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will > >>> understand what is being referenced! > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> Andy Blunden > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy > >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > >>>> On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >>>>> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how > in > >>> Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? > I > >>> think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, > but > >>> it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious > >>>>>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the > >>> representamen > >>>>>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a > >>>>>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a > dualism > >>> as > >>>>>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Jul 2 06:41:39 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 22:41:39 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: And I thought this (from Kockelman's Semiotic Stance) was a nice summary of the trouble with Saussure (and similar semiotic systems): "Indeed, the typical focus on sign-object relations (or ?signifiers? and ?signifieds?), at the expense of sign-interpretant relations, and this concomitant understanding of objects as ?objective? and interpretants as ?subjective? ? and hence the assimilation of meaning to mind, rather than grounding mind in meaning? is one of the most fatal flaws of twentieth century semiotics." (p. 239-240). Perhaps CHAT took an altogether different tack - looking at interpretant-object relations? But maybe I'm speaking out of turn? -greg On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 10:35 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Aha, so not always "over the horizon". > > But what about your original comment to Andy: > "Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over the > horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they interpret the > sign." > > Does the object of the word "object" ever appear? Or is the object of > "object" always over the horizon? > > Still figuring. > -greg > > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > >> On reflection, perhaps it would be clearer to say that? >> >> ... what is beyond the horizon can come over the horizon, and appear. >> >> Martin >> >> > On Jul 1, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >> > >> > No, Greg, because things can and do come over the horizon! What?s over >> the horizon does not appear now, but it can in the future. >> > >> > The dark cloud is a sign of rain. There is rain, perhaps, over the >> horizon. When the rain arrives, it is a sign of a cold July. When a cold >> July has arrived, it is a sign of El Ni?o. >> > >> > It appears that rain is coming; then the rain is real. It appears that >> July will be cold; then that becomes a reality. Not necessarily, of course: >> the reality can be different than what appears to be real. But we are >> reading signs all the time. Imagining what the future will bring. And then >> it does! (Or doesn?t.) >> > >> > Martin >> > >> > >> >> On Jul 1, 2016, at 7:07 PM, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Martin, >> >> So I'm wondering: does the "over the horizon"-ness of the object and >> the >> >> appearance/reality quality of the situation lead us back to >> >> phenomena/noumena? >> >> I know you are committed non-dualist but I don't understand how to fit >> >> these moves together. >> >> Seems like "over the horizon" takes us back to Kant's idea of the >> >> un-knowability of the object. >> >> I'd love to hear more. >> >> -greg >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 2:50 AM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over >> the >> >>> horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they >> interpret the >> >>> sign. >> >>> >> >>> Martin >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using >> >>> the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will >> >>> understand what is being referenced! >> >>>> >> >>>> Andy >> >>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>>> Andy Blunden >> >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> >>>> >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >>>> On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> >>>>> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how >> in >> >>> Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the >> horizon.? I >> >>> think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what >> appears, but >> >>> it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Martin >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >> >>> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious >> >>>>>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the >> >>> representamen >> >>>>>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a >> >>>>>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a >> dualism >> >>> as >> >>>>>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of Anthropology >> >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> >> Brigham Young University >> >> Provo, UT 84602 >> >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jul 2 07:22:30 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 07:22:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <5777ce53.0304620a.7390b.ffffbab6@mx.google.com> This way of understanding how (perceiving) appears through signs that may come to pass from over the horizon. I am going to give an example from the tradition of Monotheism which believes in prophets who carry or bring messages from what they notice appearing on the horizon. Messages in the form of *alternatives. I am not focusing on theology but on the *pattern* perception. My example is Erich Fromm who studied Judaic theism in his 20?s before joining the Frankfurt School and turning away from theism BUT Continued the pattern perception of noticing what was appearing on the horizon and carrying *messages* of the *alternatives* which humanity must choose. His message of *radical humanism* as a secular response to what was appearing on *our* horizon and if we have ears to hear then we must *choose*. It is how appearances on the horizon appear iconically through images, diagrams, and metaphors as *messages* WITHIN traditions. My question is how deep are these patterns of secular messages embedded in earlier ethical patterns of theism but now without a belief in God? Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Martin John Packer From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jul 2 10:36:19 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 10:36:19 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this please In-Reply-To: <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu> References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu> <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu> Message-ID: What do you find disturbing about virtual reality entertainment, Helena? And your son is employed! Seems like your reality is virtually in great shape. :-) mike On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Please take a look at this disturbing but real phenomenon: > > > http://www.alistdaily.com/media/sony-pictures-kicks-off-vr-entertainment-business-ghostbusters/ > > Full disclosure: this guy is my son. How did this happen? > > Helena > > > Helena Worthen > 21 San Mateo Road > Berkeley, CA 94707 > hworthen@illinois.edu > Vietnam blog is at: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > 510-828-2745 > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Jul 2 14:00:09 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 21:00:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <292D0F90-6CA2-4294-B059-4DF89DA6E45A@uniandes.edu.co> The relationship between words as signs (symbols) and their objects is a complex one, for sure. Foucault wrote an entire book about ?Word and things,? in which he proposed that academic discourse, at least, does not represent a reality that is independent of it, but ?constitutes? the objects it discusses. I think it has also been said that the symbolic systems of a culture are used to ?simulate? aspects of reality. So here we connect up with Helena?s concern. I would say that the first virtual reality was the oral myth, followed quickly by the written narrative. Myths and narratives invite hearers and readers to see the world in a new way, and to conjure up entities that we label ?fictional,? but which are as real in their own way as the quarks and black holes we read about, or the gods that religious institutions talk into existence, according to Latour (in ?An inquiry into modes of existence"). The trick, or the art, then, is to talk and write in such a way that the objects talked about are conjured over the horizon and into being. > On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:35 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Aha, so not always "over the horizon". > > But what about your original comment to Andy: > "Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over the > horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they interpret the > sign." > > Does the object of the word "object" ever appear? Or is the object of > "object" always over the horizon? > > Still figuring. > -greg > > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> On reflection, perhaps it would be clearer to say that? >> >> ... what is beyond the horizon can come over the horizon, and appear. >> >> Martin >> >>> On Jul 1, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >>> >>> No, Greg, because things can and do come over the horizon! What?s over >> the horizon does not appear now, but it can in the future. >>> >>> The dark cloud is a sign of rain. There is rain, perhaps, over the >> horizon. When the rain arrives, it is a sign of a cold July. When a cold >> July has arrived, it is a sign of El Ni?o. >>> >>> It appears that rain is coming; then the rain is real. It appears that >> July will be cold; then that becomes a reality. Not necessarily, of course: >> the reality can be different than what appears to be real. But we are >> reading signs all the time. Imagining what the future will bring. And then >> it does! (Or doesn?t.) >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 1, 2016, at 7:07 PM, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin, >>>> So I'm wondering: does the "over the horizon"-ness of the object and the >>>> appearance/reality quality of the situation lead us back to >>>> phenomena/noumena? >>>> I know you are committed non-dualist but I don't understand how to fit >>>> these moves together. >>>> Seems like "over the horizon" takes us back to Kant's idea of the >>>> un-knowability of the object. >>>> I'd love to hear more. >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 2:50 AM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Right, Andy: the word ?object? is a sign whose object is itself over >> the >>>>> horizon, projected there by writers and readers alike as they >> interpret the >>>>> sign. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> :) It is impossible to argue with what you say, Martin, without using >>>>> the word (i.e. sign) "object" in the belioef that the reader will >>>>> understand what is being referenced! >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>>>> On 1/07/2016 11:14 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>>>>>> My take on this diagram, Greg, is that Tony wants to illustrate how >> in >>>>> Peirce?s scheme the object is, so to speak, always 'over the horizon.? >> I >>>>> think we?re back here to appearance/reality: the sign is what appears, >> but >>>>> it is taken as an appearance of an object that is not given directly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Greg Thompson < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tony's figure 7.3 makes me doubly anxious >>>>>>>> about this since it seems to suggest that the object and the >>>>> representamen >>>>>>>> exist in different realms. I'm fine with that kind of dualism in a >>>>>>>> dualistic account, but it seems not quite right to have such a >> dualism >>>>> as >>>>>>>> part of an account whose goal is non-dualism). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jul 2 18:51:39 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 18:51:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> Greg, This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or orienting towards (mind) as an object. Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Greg Thompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Jul 2 20:02:22 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:02:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), and no god either. Martin > On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: > > Greg, > This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or orienting towards (mind) as an object. > Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. > As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Greg Thompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Jul 2 22:19:32 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 14:19:32 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin, So, ontologies writ large can be plural, but an ontology of scientific psychology is singular (and contradicts at least some of the plural ontologies, which, for example posit things like "mind," "spirit", "God", etc.). Do horizons somehow account for this apparent contradiction? The simultaneous truth and untruth of these entities? And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), and no god either. > > Martin > >> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: >> >> Greg, >> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or orienting towards (mind) as an object. >> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. >> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. >> >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: Greg Thompson > > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Jul 2 22:33:03 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:33:03 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1387 ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 3/07/2016 3:19 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > M... > > And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? > > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> >> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), and no god either. >> >> Martin >> >>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: >>> >>> Greg, >>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or orienting towards (mind) as an object. >>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. >>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>> >>> From: Greg Thompson >> > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jul 3 04:34:41 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 20:34:41 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this please In-Reply-To: References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu> <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu> Message-ID: My thought: Anybody working on a next paper for publication - how about doing it in virtual reality? Is that even imaginable? -greg? P.S. Helena, congratulations on your son's success! On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 2:36 AM, mike cole wrote: > What do you find disturbing about virtual reality entertainment, Helena? > And your son is employed! > Seems like your reality is virtually in great shape. :-) > mike > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > > > Please take a look at this disturbing but real phenomenon: > > > > > > > http://www.alistdaily.com/media/sony-pictures-kicks-off-vr-entertainment-business-ghostbusters/ > > > > Full disclosure: this guy is my son. How did this happen? > > > > Helena > > > > > > Helena Worthen > > 21 San Mateo Road > > Berkeley, CA 94707 > > hworthen@illinois.edu > > Vietnam blog is at: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > > 510-828-2745 > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Jul 3 07:24:29 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 14:24:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <9D0A0090-FFE9-42E1-BE98-591E25BF60E3@uniandes.edu.co> The ontology of scientific psychology is one of many ontologies. Martin > On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:19 AM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > > Martin, > So, ontologies writ large can be plural, but an ontology of scientific psychology is singular (and contradicts at least some of the plural ontologies, which, for example posit things like "mind," "spirit", "God", etc.). > Do horizons somehow account for this apparent contradiction? The simultaneous truth and untruth of these entities? > > And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? > > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> >> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), and no god either. >> >> Martin >> >>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: >>> >>> Greg, >>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or orienting towards (mind) as an object. >>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. >>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>> >>> From: Greg Thompson >> >> > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Jul 3 07:39:39 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 14:39:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <9D0A0090-FFE9-42E1-BE98-591E25BF60E3@uniandes.edu.co> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> <9D0A0090-FFE9-42E1-BE98-591E25BF60E3@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <4306D605-0A4D-43CF-9B40-6D746353BAD5@uniandes.edu.co> Is there a contradiction? Martin > On Jul 3, 2016, at 9:24 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > The ontology of scientific psychology is one of many ontologies. > > Martin > >> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:19 AM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Martin, >> So, ontologies writ large can be plural, but an ontology of scientific psychology is singular (and contradicts at least some of the plural ontologies, which, for example posit things like "mind," "spirit", "God", etc.). >> Do horizons somehow account for this apparent contradiction? The simultaneous truth and untruth of these entities? >> >> And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? >> >> Greg >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>> >>> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), and no god either. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg, >>>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or orienting towards (mind) as an object. >>>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. >>>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>> >>>> From: Greg Thompson >>> >>> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Jul 3 07:53:15 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 00:53:15 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: I checked, and was surprised to find that the date at which "ontology" was first used in the plural was 1855. I would have thought it much later. "Culture" was first used as a count noun in 1860 (all acc. to the OED) , so Franz Boas was not actually the first to use "culture" in the plural. "Epistemologies," the OED has no information on. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 3/07/2016 3:19 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > Martin, > So, ontologies writ large can be plural, but an ontology of scientific psychology is singular (and contradicts at least some of the plural ontologies, which, for example posit things like "mind," "spirit", "God", etc.). > Do horizons somehow account for this apparent contradiction? The simultaneous truth and untruth of these entities? > > And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? > > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >> >> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), and no god either. >> >> Martin >> >>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: >>> >>> Greg, >>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or orienting towards (mind) as an object. >>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. >>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>> >>> From: Greg Thompson >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jul 3 08:59:33 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 08:59:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Interesting sequence, Andy. Reading your beginning of an a cultureS concept and ontologIES put me quickly in mind of Herder who died in 1803, but whose ideas seemed to be part of the intellectual background that is connected to Hegel. Or so I discovered when I looked up Herder to refresh my memory of dates and came upon this useful entry from the Stanford Encyclopedia. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/herder/ mike On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 7:53 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > I checked, and was surprised to find that the date at which "ontology" was > first used in the plural was 1855. I would have thought it much later. > "Culture" was first used as a count noun in 1860 (all acc. to the OED) , so > Franz Boas was not actually the first to use "culture" in the plural. > "Epistemologies," the OED has no information on. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 3/07/2016 3:19 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > >> Martin, >> So, ontologies writ large can be plural, but an ontology of scientific >> psychology is singular (and contradicts at least some of the plural >> ontologies, which, for example posit things like "mind," "spirit", "God", >> etc.). >> Do horizons somehow account for this apparent contradiction? The >> simultaneous truth and untruth of these entities? >> >> And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? >> >> Greg >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer >>> wrote: >>> >>> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being >>> inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking >>> intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de >>> Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of >>> existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of >>> Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a >>> scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which >>> means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as >>> an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), >>> and no god either. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg, >>>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards >>>> meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way >>>> of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or >>>> orienting towards (mind) as an object. >>>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing >>>> (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. >>>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar >>>> to God being *real* in particular traditions. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>> >>>> From: Greg Thompson >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From wendy.maples@outlook.com Sun Jul 3 14:45:23 2016 From: wendy.maples@outlook.com (Wendy Maples) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 22:45:23 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this please In-Reply-To: References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu>, , , <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu>, Message-ID: Thank you for sharing, Helena (and congratulations!). I was interested to see the original Ghostbusters in our local community cinema last Halloween. While I still thoroughly enjoyed it, I was struck by how very slow the pace was and how 'instructional' the dialogue. I was pleased that your son made the point that his company is in the 'narrative' business, but I wonder about the differences in narrative. Certainly there have been significant changes in the speed of cuts/edits in film production (much faster now), and we know that many technologies are designed to be as intuitive as possible. But where does that leave creative narrative? This is a genuine question. Does the growth of VR anticipate that (what we meant by) narrative will change? > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 10:36:19 -0700 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this please > > What do you find disturbing about virtual reality entertainment, Helena? > And your son is employed! > Seems like your reality is virtually in great shape. :-) > mike > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > > > Please take a look at this disturbing but real phenomenon: > > > > > > http://www.alistdaily.com/media/sony-pictures-kicks-off-vr-entertainment-business-ghostbusters/ > > > > Full disclosure: this guy is my son. How did this happen? > > > > Helena > > > > > > Helena Worthen > > 21 San Mateo Road > > Berkeley, CA 94707 > > hworthen@illinois.edu > > Vietnam blog is at: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > > 510-828-2745 > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jul 3 15:38:59 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:38:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Symmbolic Mediation of joint action Message-ID: I just stumpled over this article by the son of D.B. Elkonin on signs and symbols that I thought might contribute to the discussion on semiotic mediation. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Symbolic Mediation and Joint Action B D El konin.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 659673 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160703/48678611/attachment.pdf From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jul 3 17:13:21 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 09:13:21 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Symmbolic Mediation of joint action In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting resonances between Elkonin and Kockelman in Elkonin's description of the sign: "The problem of a joint action is the problem of the interpsychic, as Vygotsky called it. But the most important thing is the concerted action. It changes the nature of orientation. Orientation to the action of another is, at the same time, an orientation of one?s own action. An orientation to material and objective conditions is subordinate to orientation to another?s action (it must be uncovered)." This seems to be why Kockelman and other anthropologists (e.g., Webb Keane) have been so taken with the concept of joint attention (mostly Tomasello's work). For Kockelman, the sign is a relator of relators in as much as it relates one person's relation to a thing (via semiosis) to another person's relation to the thing via a third. -greg On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 7:38 AM, mike cole wrote: > I just stumpled over this article by the son of D.B. Elkonin on signs and > symbols that I thought might contribute to the > discussion on semiotic mediation. > > mike > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Sun Jul 3 17:19:37 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 10:19:37 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: That is quite right, Mike. Herder's place in the genealogy of a whole number of ideas which are crucial to our current of thinking is broadly overlooked. When I submitted a German translation of my paper on Goethe and Hegel to a journal in Berlin, I found such hostility to the place I gave Herder, that I had to remove him in order to get published. It was good to see that Stanford Encyclopedia entry gave him his due. Here is his archive on maxists.org: https://www.marxists.org/archive/herder/index.htm and his FaceBook page: https://www.facebook.com/Johann-Gottfried-Herder-278589731820/ Vygotsky people would perhaps be interested to know that the very first appearance of the idea of "unit of analysis" in the Vygotskyan sense, we owe to Herder. He called it /Schwerpunkt/, which is usually translated as "centre of gravity," but I think that in the social context, it is best translated as "strong point." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 4/07/2016 1:59 AM, mike cole wrote: > Interesting sequence, Andy. > Reading your beginning of an a cultureS concept and > ontologIES put me quickly in mind of Herder who died in > 1803, but whose ideas seemed to be part of the > intellectual background that is connected to > Hegel. Or so I discovered when I looked up Herder to > refresh my memory of dates and came upon this useful entry > from the Stanford Encyclopedia. > > http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/herder/ > > mike > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 7:53 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > I checked, and was surprised to find that the date at > which "ontology" was first used in the plural was > 1855. I would have thought it much later. "Culture" > was first used as a count noun in 1860 (all acc. to > the OED) , so Franz Boas was not actually the first to > use "culture" in the plural. "Epistemologies," the OED > has no information on. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 3/07/2016 3:19 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > wrote: > > Martin, > So, ontologies writ large can be plural, but an > ontology of scientific psychology is singular (and > contradicts at least some of the plural > ontologies, which, for example posit things like > "mind," "spirit", "God", etc.). > Do horizons somehow account for this apparent > contradiction? The simultaneous truth and untruth > of these entities? > > And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror > metaphor? > > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John > Packer > wrote: > > I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must > appear that I?m being inconsistent introducing > gods after being so hard on Michael for > invoking intelligent design. But, while I want > to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in > arguing that there are multiple ontologies, > many ways of existing, in which case mind can > be said to exist in the ontology of Western > folk psychology, I also want to insist that > the ontology of a scientific psychology has to > be consistent and non-contradictory, which > means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a > scientific psychology (except as an appearance > to be explained, like a candle seemingly > ?behind? a mirror), and no god either. > > Martin > > On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry > > wrote: > > Greg, > This shift in the relationship between > (mind) and (meaning) towards meaning > being primordial or primary and mind > arising as one particular way of imagining > meaning seems to be a radical shift in > ways of approaching or orienting towards > (mind) as an object. > Mind becomes one way of imaging and > diagramming, and symbolizing (meaning > potential) in other words -mind as object. > As Martin says, this may be *fictional* > but is *real* in a way similar to God > being *real* in particular traditions. > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Greg Thompson > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural > science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jul 3 17:24:02 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 09:24:02 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Andy, I wonder about Wundt's volkerpsychologieS as something that came before a pluralizable notion of "culture" (cultural psychology as the origo of anthropology!). -greg (p.s., I'm also curious about the first use of pluralized "ontologies" - anything more to share on that front Andy?). p.p.s. Herder gets much more of his due in anthropological circles. On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 12:59 AM, mike cole wrote: > Interesting sequence, Andy. > Reading your beginning of an a cultureS concept and ontologIES put me > quickly in mind of Herder who died in 1803, but whose ideas seemed to be > part of the intellectual background that is connected to > Hegel. Or so I discovered when I looked up Herder to refresh my memory of > dates and came upon this useful entry from the Stanford Encyclopedia. > > http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/herder/ > > mike > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 7:53 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > I checked, and was surprised to find that the date at which "ontology" > was > > first used in the plural was 1855. I would have thought it much later. > > "Culture" was first used as a count noun in 1860 (all acc. to the OED) , > so > > Franz Boas was not actually the first to use "culture" in the plural. > > "Epistemologies," the OED has no information on. > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 3/07/2016 3:19 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > > > >> Martin, > >> So, ontologies writ large can be plural, but an ontology of scientific > >> psychology is singular (and contradicts at least some of the plural > >> ontologies, which, for example posit things like "mind," "spirit", > "God", > >> etc.). > >> Do horizons somehow account for this apparent contradiction? The > >> simultaneous truth and untruth of these entities? > >> > >> And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? > >> > >> Greg > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being > >>> inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for > invoking > >>> intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de > >>> Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of > >>> existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of > >>> Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a > >>> scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which > >>> means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology > (except as > >>> an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a > mirror), > >>> and no god either. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Greg, > >>>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards > >>>> meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one > particular way > >>>> of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of > approaching or > >>>> orienting towards (mind) as an object. > >>>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing > >>>> (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. > >>>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar > >>>> to God being *real* in particular traditions. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>> > >>>> From: Greg Thompson > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jul 3 17:27:45 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 09:27:45 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <4306D605-0A4D-43CF-9B40-6D746353BAD5@uniandes.edu.co> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> <9D0A0090-FFE9-42E1-BE98-591E25BF60E3@uniandes.edu.co> <4306D605-0A4D-43CF-9B40-6D746353BAD5@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: ?Martin, The place where there feels to be a contradiction is in the idea that scientific psychology has some kind of privileged location among the ontologies. This wasn't something that you explicitly said but it seemed to be inferred (by me!). I guess we still have a lot of work to do in order to give non-scientific ontologies their due. Definitely the other half of Latour's project. And I assume that this all begs the question of the "what for" of ontologies, i.e., what is a given ontology "for"? I assume that this matters too. -greg ? On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Is there a contradiction? > > Martin > > > On Jul 3, 2016, at 9:24 AM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > > The ontology of scientific psychology is one of many ontologies. > > > > Martin > > > >> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:19 AM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > >> > >> Martin, > >> So, ontologies writ large can be plural, but an ontology of scientific > psychology is singular (and contradicts at least some of the plural > ontologies, which, for example posit things like "mind," "spirit", "God", > etc.). > >> Do horizons somehow account for this apparent contradiction? The > simultaneous truth and untruth of these entities? > >> > >> And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? > >> > >> Greg > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > >>> > >>> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being > inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking > intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de > Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of > existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of > Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a > scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which > means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as > an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), > and no god either. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Greg, > >>>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards > meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way > of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or > orienting towards (mind) as an object. > >>>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing > (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. > >>>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way > similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>> > >>>> From: Greg Thompson > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Sun Jul 3 17:29:55 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 10:29:55 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: I agree, that in the formation of a methodology for cultural psychology, Wundt has an important place. I think the recognition as "culture" as a count noun has its place in that genealogy but I have nothing to offer on Wundt and count nouns. Good to hear that Herder get recognition in the culture of anthropology! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 4/07/2016 10:24 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy, > I wonder about Wundt's volkerpsychologieS as something > that came before a pluralizable notion of "culture" > (cultural psychology as the origo of anthropology!). > -greg > (p.s., I'm also curious about the first use of pluralized > "ontologies" - anything more to share on that front Andy?). > p.p.s. Herder gets much more of his due in anthropological > circles. > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 12:59 AM, mike cole > wrote: > > Interesting sequence, Andy. > Reading your beginning of an a cultureS concept and > ontologIES put me > quickly in mind of Herder who died in 1803, but whose > ideas seemed to be > part of the intellectual background that is connected to > Hegel. Or so I discovered when I looked up Herder to > refresh my memory of > dates and came upon this useful entry from the > Stanford Encyclopedia. > > http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/herder/ > > mike > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 7:53 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > I checked, and was surprised to find that the date > at which "ontology" was > > first used in the plural was 1855. I would have > thought it much later. > > "Culture" was first used as a count noun in 1860 > (all acc. to the OED) , so > > Franz Boas was not actually the first to use > "culture" in the plural. > > "Epistemologies," the OED has no information on. > > > > Andy > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 3/07/2016 3:19 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > wrote: > > > >> Martin, > >> So, ontologies writ large can be plural, but an > ontology of scientific > >> psychology is singular (and contradicts at least > some of the plural > >> ontologies, which, for example posit things like > "mind," "spirit", "God", > >> etc.). > >> Do horizons somehow account for this apparent > contradiction? The > >> simultaneous truth and untruth of these entities? > >> > >> And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror > metaphor? > >> > >> Greg > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must > appear that I?m being > >>> inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard > on Michael for invoking > >>> intelligent design. But, while I want to follow > Latour (and Viveiros de > >>> Castro) in arguing that there are multiple > ontologies, many ways of > >>> existing, in which case mind can be said to exist > in the ontology of > >>> Western folk psychology, I also want to insist > that the ontology of a > >>> scientific psychology has to be consistent and > non-contradictory, which > >>> means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a > scientific psychology (except as > >>> an appearance to be explained, like a candle > seemingly ?behind? a mirror), > >>> and no god either. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry > > > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Greg, > >>>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and > (meaning) towards > >>>> meaning being primordial or primary and mind > arising as one particular way > >>>> of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift > in ways of approaching or > >>>> orienting towards (mind) as an object. > >>>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, > and symbolizing > >>>> (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. > >>>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is > *real* in a way similar > >>>> to God being *real* in particular traditions. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>> > >>>> From: Greg Thompson > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural > science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Jul 3 17:32:47 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 00:32:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: According to the Stanford article, Herder was core to the training of both Malinowski and Boas - that?s to say, the founding figures in both US and UK anthropology. Martin > On Jul 3, 2016, at 7:24 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > p.p.s. Herder gets much more of his due in anthropological circles. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Jul 3 17:52:12 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 00:52:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <57753f0b.a1a0420a.662d4.0e8f@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> <9D0A0090-FFE9-42E1-BE98-591E25BF60E3@uniandes.edu.co> <4306D605-0A4D-43CF-9B40-6D746353BAD5@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Greg, it?s simply that what we?re discussing here, for the most part, is scientific psychology, no? Or if you prefer, scientific cultural historical inquiry. Other ontologies have, I imagine, other discussion groups. Martin > On Jul 3, 2016, at 7:27 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > ?Martin, > The place where there feels to be a contradiction is in the idea that > scientific psychology has some kind of privileged location among the > ontologies. This wasn't something that you explicitly said but it seemed to > be inferred (by me!). > > I guess we still have a lot of work to do in order to give non-scientific > ontologies their due. Definitely the other half of Latour's project. > > And I assume that this all begs the question of the "what for" of > ontologies, i.e., what is a given ontology "for"? I assume that this > matters too. > -greg > > ? > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Is there a contradiction? >> >> Martin >> >>> On Jul 3, 2016, at 9:24 AM, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >>> >>> The ontology of scientific psychology is one of many ontologies. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>>> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:19 AM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin, >>>> So, ontologies writ large can be plural, but an ontology of scientific >> psychology is singular (and contradicts at least some of the plural >> ontologies, which, for example posit things like "mind," "spirit", "God", >> etc.). >>>> Do horizons somehow account for this apparent contradiction? The >> simultaneous truth and untruth of these entities? >>>> >>>> And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? >>>> >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being >> inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking >> intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de >> Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of >> existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of >> Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a >> scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which >> means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as >> an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), >> and no god either. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Greg, >>>>>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards >> meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way >> of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or >> orienting towards (mind) as an object. >>>>>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing >> (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. >>>>>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way >> similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Greg Thompson >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Mon Jul 4 22:38:22 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 15:38:22 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Appeal for help Message-ID: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Comrade and friends, I need some help. I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications for psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I can make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) of people from one culture or another? or similar information about changes in a person's character following their emigration to another country? URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university library or JSTOR. Thanks Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making From NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au Mon Jul 4 23:00:27 2016 From: NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au (Nektarios Alexi) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 06:00:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Message-ID: For your request on similar information about changes in a person's character following their emigration to another country? I have used his theory for my PhD thesis on acculturation effect for help seeking intentions for mental ilness. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x/abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation - Berry - 2008 ... onlinelibrary.wiley.com How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An International Review, 46: 5?34. doi: 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Appeal for help Comrade and friends, I need some help. I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications for psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I can make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) of people from one culture or another? or similar information about changes in a person's character following their emigration to another country? URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university library or JSTOR. Thanks Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making From swaiev@gmail.com Mon Jul 4 23:08:46 2016 From: swaiev@gmail.com (Elinami Swai) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 09:08:46 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Message-ID: Dear Andy. Coming from gender studies, the concepts of 'family honor,' and/or 'culture of honor' come to mind where a person's identity depends largely on family and culture. On 05/07/2016, Andy Blunden wrote: > Comrade and friends, I need some help. > > I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue > ethics. Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated > attributes of a person's character; my aim is to make the > starting point instead from virtues defined as deep-seated > attributes of a project, which you can take to mean "social > context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't need > advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in > the nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong > implications for psychology as well as social theory, to the > extent that I think I can make a great deal of progress by > calling on psychological data. > > Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's > character changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any > evidence of the well-known phenomenon in which a person > promoted above the ability suffers a moral degeneration; any > suitable and reliable data about the differing character > (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) of people > from one culture or another? or similar information about > changes in a person's character following their emigration > to another country? > > URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a > university library or JSTOR. > > Thanks > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > -- Dr. Elinami Swai Senior Lecturer Associate Dean Coordinator, Postgraduate Studies Faculty of Education Open University of Tanzania P.O.Box 23409 Dar-Es-Salaam Tell:255-022-2668992/2668820/2668445/26687455 Fax:022-2668759 Cell: (255) 076-722-8353; (255) 068-722-8353 http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Womens-Empowerment-Africa-Dislocation/dp/ 0230102484 ...this faith will still deliver If you live it first to last Not everything which blooms must wither. Not all that was is past From ablunden@mira.net Mon Jul 4 23:14:03 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 16:14:03 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Message-ID: <3c8db4f1-9daa-c8cb-4248-ef7a574385b3@mira.net> I think this is true of *all* cultures, Elinami. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 5/07/2016 4:08 PM, Elinami Swai wrote: > Dear Andy. Coming from gender studies, the concepts of 'family honor,' > and/or 'culture of honor' come to mind where a person's identity > depends largely on family and culture. > > > > On 05/07/2016, Andy Blunden wrote: >> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >> >> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue >> ethics. Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated >> attributes of a person's character; my aim is to make the >> starting point instead from virtues defined as deep-seated >> attributes of a project, which you can take to mean "social >> context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't need >> advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in >> the nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong >> implications for psychology as well as social theory, to the >> extent that I think I can make a great deal of progress by >> calling on psychological data. >> >> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's >> character changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any >> evidence of the well-known phenomenon in which a person >> promoted above the ability suffers a moral degeneration; any >> suitable and reliable data about the differing character >> (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) of people >> from one culture or another? or similar information about >> changes in a person's character following their emigration >> to another country? >> >> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a >> university library or JSTOR. >> >> Thanks >> >> Andy >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Jul 4 23:15:22 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 16:15:22 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Message-ID: Perfect Alex! Thank you. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 5/07/2016 4:00 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > > For your request on similar information about > changes in a person's character following their emigration > to another country? I have used his theory for my PhD > thesis on acculturation effect for help seeking intentions > for mental ilness. > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x/abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 > > Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation - Berry - 2008 > ... > > onlinelibrary.wiley.com > How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), Immigration, > Acculturation, and Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An > International Review, 46: 5?34. doi: > 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy > Blunden > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Appeal for help > Comrade and friends, I need some help. > > I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue > ethics. Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated > attributes of a person's character; my aim is to make the > starting point instead from virtues defined as deep-seated > attributes of a project, which you can take to mean "social > context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't need > advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in > the nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong > implications for psychology as well as social theory, to the > extent that I think I can make a great deal of progress by > calling on psychological data. > > Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's > character changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any > evidence of the well-known phenomenon in which a person > promoted above the ability suffers a moral degeneration; any > suitable and reliable data about the differing character > (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) of people > from one culture or another? or similar information about > changes in a person's character following their emigration > to another country? > > URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a > university library or JSTOR. > > Thanks > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Jul 4 23:21:01 2016 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 06:21:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Andy, There are two issues here. Are you exploring the way individual and group ethics change based on the current circumstances - separate from culturally developed "virtues" or are you exploring the way individual adapt to different sets of "virtues" "morals" whatever when they change culture? Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:15 AM To: Nektarios Alexi ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help Perfect Alex! Thank you. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 5/07/2016 4:00 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > > For your request on similar information about changes in a person's > character following their emigration to another country? I have used > his theory for my PhD thesis on acculturation effect for help seeking > intentions for mental ilness. > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x/ > abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 > > Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation - Berry - 2008 ... > /abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02> > onlinelibrary.wiley.com > How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), Immigration, Acculturation, and > Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An International Review, 46: 5-34. doi: > 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Appeal for help > Comrade and friends, I need some help. > > I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues > are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's > character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues > defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to > mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't > need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the > nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications for > psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I can > make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. > > Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character > changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the > well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability > suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the > differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) > of people from one culture or another? or similar information about > changes in a person's character following their emigration to another > country? > > URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university > library or JSTOR. > > Thanks > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Jul 4 23:36:13 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 16:36:13 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Well, as is my nature, and given my situation, I am not going to do any of that kind of *investigation*, Michael; I don't really want to explain my larger project because that would lead to confusion of all kinds at this stage. But ... I am just trying to show that the understanding of virtues is enhanced by taking virtues to be attributes of projects, with individuals perhaps acquiring and developing such attributes in and through their participation in, commitment to and place within the project. But it is not my intention to look at participation in projects as a way of individuals acquiring virtues. But simply that the virtuous nature of the project is what is primary, not the prima facie character of the individual participants. The problems I will face in substantiating this are very similar to the issues you raised about cognitive development, but I am confident I can overcome them. OK? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 5/07/2016 4:21 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Andy, > > There are two issues here. Are you exploring the way individual and group ethics change based on the current circumstances - separate from culturally developed "virtues" or are you exploring the way individual adapt to different sets of "virtues" "morals" whatever when they change culture? > > Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:15 AM > To: Nektarios Alexi ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help > > Perfect Alex! Thank you. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 5/07/2016 4:00 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >> For your request on similar information about changes in a person's >> character following their emigration to another country? I have used >> his theory for my PhD thesis on acculturation effect for help seeking >> intentions for mental ilness. >> >> >> >> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x/ >> abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 >> >> Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation - Berry - 2008 ... >> > /abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02> >> onlinelibrary.wiley.com >> How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), Immigration, Acculturation, and >> Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An International Review, 46: 5-34. doi: >> 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Appeal for help >> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >> >> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues >> are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's >> character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues >> defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to >> mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't >> need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the >> nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications for >> psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I can >> make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. >> >> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character >> changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the >> well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability >> suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the >> differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) >> of people from one culture or another? or similar information about >> changes in a person's character following their emigration to another >> country? >> >> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university >> library or JSTOR. >> >> Thanks >> >> Andy >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Jul 4 23:42:41 2016 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 06:42:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CE0D@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Take a look at The Hacker Ethic by Steve Levy. He makes essentially this argument of how software developed in the late sixties and the early seventies If I'm reading you right, this is something I have been looking at as well. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:36 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help Well, as is my nature, and given my situation, I am not going to do any of that kind of *investigation*, Michael; I don't really want to explain my larger project because that would lead to confusion of all kinds at this stage. But ... I am just trying to show that the understanding of virtues is enhanced by taking virtues to be attributes of projects, with individuals perhaps acquiring and developing such attributes in and through their participation in, commitment to and place within the project. But it is not my intention to look at participation in projects as a way of individuals acquiring virtues. But simply that the virtuous nature of the project is what is primary, not the prima facie character of the individual participants. The problems I will face in substantiating this are very similar to the issues you raised about cognitive development, but I am confident I can overcome them. OK? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 5/07/2016 4:21 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Andy, > > There are two issues here. Are you exploring the way individual and group ethics change based on the current circumstances - separate from culturally developed "virtues" or are you exploring the way individual adapt to different sets of "virtues" "morals" whatever when they change culture? > > Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:15 AM > To: Nektarios Alexi ; eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help > > Perfect Alex! Thank you. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 5/07/2016 4:00 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >> For your request on similar information about changes in a person's >> character following their emigration to another country? I have used >> his theory for my PhD thesis on acculturation effect for help seeking >> intentions for mental ilness. >> >> >> >> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x >> / >> abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 >> >> Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation - Berry - 2008 ... >> > x /abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02> >> onlinelibrary.wiley.com >> How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), Immigration, Acculturation, and >> Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An International Review, 46: 5-34. doi: >> 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Appeal for help >> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >> >> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. >> Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a >> person's character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from >> virtues defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can >> take to mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I >> don't need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in >> in the nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications >> for psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I >> can make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. >> >> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character >> changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the >> well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability >> suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about >> the differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but >> virtues) of people from one culture or another? or similar >> information about changes in a person's character following their >> emigration to another country? >> >> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university >> library or JSTOR. >> >> Thanks >> >> Andy >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Jul 4 23:45:04 2016 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 06:45:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CE1E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Actually Levy's books is called Hackers but he is the one who coined the term Hacker Ethic. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:36 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help Well, as is my nature, and given my situation, I am not going to do any of that kind of *investigation*, Michael; I don't really want to explain my larger project because that would lead to confusion of all kinds at this stage. But ... I am just trying to show that the understanding of virtues is enhanced by taking virtues to be attributes of projects, with individuals perhaps acquiring and developing such attributes in and through their participation in, commitment to and place within the project. But it is not my intention to look at participation in projects as a way of individuals acquiring virtues. But simply that the virtuous nature of the project is what is primary, not the prima facie character of the individual participants. The problems I will face in substantiating this are very similar to the issues you raised about cognitive development, but I am confident I can overcome them. OK? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 5/07/2016 4:21 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Andy, > > There are two issues here. Are you exploring the way individual and group ethics change based on the current circumstances - separate from culturally developed "virtues" or are you exploring the way individual adapt to different sets of "virtues" "morals" whatever when they change culture? > > Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:15 AM > To: Nektarios Alexi ; eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help > > Perfect Alex! Thank you. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 5/07/2016 4:00 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >> For your request on similar information about changes in a person's >> character following their emigration to another country? I have used >> his theory for my PhD thesis on acculturation effect for help seeking >> intentions for mental ilness. >> >> >> >> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x >> / >> abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 >> >> Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation - Berry - 2008 ... >> > x /abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02> >> onlinelibrary.wiley.com >> How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), Immigration, Acculturation, and >> Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An International Review, 46: 5-34. doi: >> 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of Andy Blunden >> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM >> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Appeal for help >> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >> >> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. >> Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a >> person's character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from >> virtues defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can >> take to mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I >> don't need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in >> in the nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications >> for psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I >> can make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. >> >> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character >> changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the >> well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability >> suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about >> the differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but >> virtues) of people from one culture or another? or similar >> information about changes in a person's character following their >> emigration to another country? >> >> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university >> library or JSTOR. >> >> Thanks >> >> Andy >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Jul 4 23:51:25 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 16:51:25 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CE0D@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CE0D@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <145ac72d-6adc-ebb8-a2db-991912e3b91f@mira.net> Thanks Michael. That any particular community or project has its own ethic is widely recognised. I am trying to take this a step further. But thanks for the link. It is a nice example. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 5/07/2016 4:42 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Take a look at The Hacker Ethic by Steve Levy. He makes essentially this argument of how software developed in the late sixties and the early seventies If I'm reading you right, this is something I have been looking at as well. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:36 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help > > Well, as is my nature, and given my situation, I am not going to do any of that kind of *investigation*, Michael; I don't really want to explain my larger project because that would lead to confusion of all kinds at this stage. But ... > I am just trying to show that the understanding of virtues is enhanced by taking virtues to be attributes of projects, with individuals perhaps acquiring and developing such attributes in and through their participation in, commitment to and place within the project. But it is not my intention to look at participation in projects as a way of individuals acquiring virtues. But simply that the virtuous nature of the project is what is primary, not the prima facie character of the individual participants. The problems I will face in substantiating this are very similar to the issues you raised about cognitive development, but I am confident I can overcome them. > > OK? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 5/07/2016 4:21 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: >> Andy, >> >> There are two issues here. Are you exploring the way individual and group ethics change based on the current circumstances - separate from culturally developed "virtues" or are you exploring the way individual adapt to different sets of "virtues" "morals" whatever when they change culture? >> >> Michael >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:15 AM >> To: Nektarios Alexi ; eXtended Mind, >> Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help >> >> Perfect Alex! Thank you. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> On 5/07/2016 4:00 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >>> For your request on similar information about changes in a person's >>> character following their emigration to another country? I have used >>> his theory for my PhD thesis on acculturation effect for help seeking >>> intentions for mental ilness. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x >>> / >>> abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 >>> >>> Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation - Berry - 2008 ... >>> >> x /abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02> >>> onlinelibrary.wiley.com >>> How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), Immigration, Acculturation, and >>> Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An International Review, 46: 5-34. doi: >>> 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Appeal for help >>> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >>> >>> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. >>> Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a >>> person's character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from >>> virtues defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can >>> take to mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I >>> don't need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in >>> in the nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications >>> for psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I >>> can make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. >>> >>> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character >>> changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the >>> well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability >>> suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about >>> the differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but >>> virtues) of people from one culture or another? or similar >>> information about changes in a person's character following their >>> emigration to another country? >>> >>> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university >>> library or JSTOR. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> >>> >> > > From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Tue Jul 5 02:11:49 2016 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (R.J.S.Parsons) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 09:11:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <239ff05e-da6e-dfca-cea5-800d464dc715@open.ac.uk> I'm just musing here. What you're saying resonates with some of my thinking around Britain's EU referendum and the subsequent national crisis that we are still going through. (Has ended one or two political careers, much to my delight, but has not ended some others, to my chagrin.) The whole issue is complex, so I will probably do violence to it by describing it briefly. Those who voted to leave were, on the whole, taking aim at the wrong target. There appears to have been some difficulty distinguishing beween what people are angry about and what people are angry at. On the whole, they are angry about loss of security, loss of control, lack of steady jobs, the extraordinary price that needs to be paid for a house. There is also anger, as there away is, about immigration, which is even more complex. Leave voters thought that by voting to leave the EU they were taking back control. In a few years time they will realise that they have not, and then I think, by and large, there will be two camps. One camp will be those who realise that nothing in their lives has changed. The other will be those who, whatever the economic and social reality, will feel free, and will go to great lengths to say so. Some indeed are already saying an economic decline is a price worth paying for taking back control. So that is the scene in which two contradictory projects have been taking place. Actually, more than two, but two key ones. The first is the project to take back control, channelled through the rise of UKIP and Nigel Farage's almost single handed ability to mobilise working class resentment into a political tool. In this project patriotism has become a very significant virtue. The demagogic right wing has shaped patriotism into a virtue which, in its thinking, its supporters have and nobody else does. (And it is expressed through native exceptionalism.) At the same time, anger - in their view "righteous" anger - has become a virtue which they share and promulgate. One of the nastier themes of their discourse is to shout "Traitor" at those campaigning on the other side. Manifestations of anger are now commonplace, from the murder of Jo Cox to the apparently 500% rise in hate incidents reported to the police since the result. So it seems the project has very definitely shaped the virtues its proponents hold. On the other side, the position is more complex. For those who support staying in the EU, national identity is a complex issue which they have not succeeded in grappling with coherently. There is a muddy sense of European identity for some people, but not for others. Virtues of co-operation and internationalism are spoken about, but none with the conviction and passion of the nativists. So - still thinking aloud here - I think I'm illustrating the idea that projects form their own virtues, but also that some projects form virtues, and enable their expression, much more effectively than others. Thank you for asking the question, Andy, because you have enabled me to advance my thinking a bit. And if it provides fuel for you, that is a bonus. Rob On 05/07/2016 07:36, Andy Blunden wrote: > Well, as is my nature, and given my situation, I am not going to do > any of that kind of *investigation*, Michael; I don't really want to > explain my larger project because that would lead to confusion of all > kinds at this stage. But ... I am just trying to show that the > understanding of virtues is enhanced by taking virtues to be > attributes of projects, with individuals perhaps acquiring and > developing such attributes in and through their participation in, > commitment to and place within the project. But it is not my intention > to look at participation in projects as a way of individuals acquiring > virtues. But simply that the virtuous nature of the project is what is > primary, not the prima facie character of the individual participants. > The problems I will face in substantiating this are very similar to > the issues you raised about cognitive development, but I am confident > I can overcome them. > > OK? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 5/07/2016 4:21 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: >> Andy, >> >> There are two issues here. Are you exploring the way individual and >> group ethics change based on the current circumstances - separate >> from culturally developed "virtues" or are you exploring the way >> individual adapt to different sets of "virtues" "morals" whatever >> when they change culture? >> >> Michael >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:15 AM >> To: Nektarios Alexi ; eXtended Mind, >> Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help >> >> Perfect Alex! Thank you. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> On 5/07/2016 4:00 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >>> For your request on similar information about changes in a person's >>> character following their emigration to another country? I have used >>> his theory for my PhD thesis on acculturation effect for help seeking >>> intentions for mental ilness. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x/ >>> abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 >>> >>> Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation - Berry - 2008 ... >>> >> /abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02> >>> onlinelibrary.wiley.com >>> How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), Immigration, Acculturation, and >>> Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An International Review, 46: 5-34. doi: >>> 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Appeal for help >>> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >>> >>> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues >>> are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's >>> character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues >>> defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to >>> mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't >>> need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the >>> nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications for >>> psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I can >>> make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. >>> >>> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character >>> changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the >>> well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability >>> suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the >>> differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) >>> of people from one culture or another? or similar information about >>> changes in a person's character following their emigration to another >>> country? >>> >>> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university >>> library or JSTOR. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> >>> >> >> > From carolmacdon@gmail.com Tue Jul 5 02:25:53 2016 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 11:25:53 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <3c8db4f1-9daa-c8cb-4248-ef7a574385b3@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3c8db4f1-9daa-c8cb-4248-ef7a574385b3@mira.net> Message-ID: Elinami and Andy Perhaps, as a fellow African, I can tell Andy that this is definitely stronger in African than in Western societies. But I am going to go a step further. In totally Islamic societies (not for example UK or USA) there is even a higher, or perhaps I should say more virulent sense of honour, so families might commit honour killings, if they perceive the honour of the family to be sullied. As a woman I feel very strongly against the killing or burning or acid attacks on young women who want to choose their life partner. I know we all feel a little sensitive about islamic issues right now, so perhaps we can move on to blood feuds in traditional societies (for example in Polynesia). Any what is the status of the family as a project? It certainly takes its character from the larger culture of which it is part, but may be either fluid or completely rigid. Is it constructed anew with every wedding or partnership. Carol PS I think the Aus elections might be a case of two many "virtues" chasing the same electorate. I expect we will know the outcome today. On 5 July 2016 at 08:14, Andy Blunden wrote: > I think this is true of *all* cultures, Elinami. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 5/07/2016 4:08 PM, Elinami Swai wrote: > >> Dear Andy. Coming from gender studies, the concepts of 'family honor,' >> and/or 'culture of honor' come to mind where a person's identity >> depends largely on family and culture. >> >> >> >> On 05/07/2016, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >>> >>> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue >>> ethics. Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated >>> attributes of a person's character; my aim is to make the >>> starting point instead from virtues defined as deep-seated >>> attributes of a project, which you can take to mean "social >>> context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't need >>> advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in >>> the nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong >>> implications for psychology as well as social theory, to the >>> extent that I think I can make a great deal of progress by >>> calling on psychological data. >>> >>> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's >>> character changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any >>> evidence of the well-known phenomenon in which a person >>> promoted above the ability suffers a moral degeneration; any >>> suitable and reliable data about the differing character >>> (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) of people >>> from one culture or another? or similar information about >>> changes in a person's character following their emigration >>> to another country? >>> >>> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a >>> university library or JSTOR. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> >>> >>> >> > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph.D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa alternative email address: tmacdoca@unisa.ac.za From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jul 5 03:15:10 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 20:15:10 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3c8db4f1-9daa-c8cb-4248-ef7a574385b3@mira.net> Message-ID: <92f94960-6da2-6d65-cd8c-20e8af5c0477@mira.net> I understand what Elinami and you, Carol, are saying. My unwillingness to acknowledge this idea without qualification is that the idea that "honour" is such a factor in the self-consciousness of people not from liberal-individualist capitalist societies is associated with the denigration of other cultures. Suicide and depression (when not leading to actual suicide) are at almost epidemic levels in these liberal-individualist societies. Why? Well, that's too big a question, probably, but the feeling of aloneness, the feelings of uselessness, powerlessness, isolation and the meaninglessness of life for many in the "west," is really not a lot different from "loss of honour". But generally throwing acid on your wife or killing your son-in-law are, not, thank heavens, seen as ways of restoring meaning and coherence in life in our countries. Families, yes, the family is the most important project in the lives of probably most people. And no, it will be a week before Australians know what government we shall have. Last time it took 17 days. Was such a pleasure watching the Conservatives discovering that not everyone loved them. Rob, yes, you are talking about my topic here. But instead of saying: "the project has very definitely shaped the virtues its proponents hold," I say the individuals express the virtues (or lack thereof) of the project. And in virtue ethics, a natural virtue which allows people to do bad things, which they would not do if they could exercise moral wisdom to control their actions, are imperfect, they are not really virtues. "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" for example. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 5/07/2016 7:25 PM, Carol Macdonald wrote: > Elinami and Andy > > Perhaps, as a fellow African, I can tell Andy that this is > definitely stronger in African than in Western societies. > But I am going to go a step further. In totally Islamic > societies (not for example UK or USA) there is even a > higher, or perhaps I should say more virulent sense of > honour, so families might commit honour killings, if they > perceive the honour of the family to be sullied. As a > woman I feel very strongly against the killing or burning > or acid attacks on young women who want to choose their > life partner. > > I know we all feel a little sensitive about islamic issues > right now, so perhaps we can move on to blood feuds in > traditional societies (for example in Polynesia). > > Any what is the status of the family as a project? It > certainly takes its character from the larger culture of > which it is part, but may be either fluid or completely > rigid. Is it constructed anew with every wedding or > partnership. > > Carol > > PS I think the Aus elections might be a case of two many > "virtues" chasing the same electorate. I expect we will > know the outcome today. > > On 5 July 2016 at 08:14, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > I think this is true of *all* cultures, Elinami. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 5/07/2016 4:08 PM, Elinami Swai wrote: > > Dear Andy. Coming from gender studies, the > concepts of 'family honor,' > and/or 'culture of honor' come to mind where a > person's identity > depends largely on family and culture. > > > > On 05/07/2016, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Comrade and friends, I need some help. > > I am setting about developing a new approach > to virtue > ethics. Virtues are everywhere taken to be > deep-seated > attributes of a person's character; my aim is > to make the > starting point instead from virtues defined as > deep-seated > attributes of a project, which you can take to > mean "social > context" or "system of activity" if you wish. > I don't need > advice about issues and problems of ethics, > but it is in in > the nature of virtue ethics that it always has > strong > implications for psychology as well as social > theory, to the > extent that I think I can make a great deal of > progress by > calling on psychological data. > > Can people point me to research(ers) about how > a person's > character changes with social context (e.g. > home/work), any > evidence of the well-known phenomenon in which > a person > promoted above the ability suffers a moral > degeneration; any > suitable and reliable data about the differing > character > (not just preferences or cognition, but > virtues) of people > from one culture or another? or similar > information about > changes in a person's character following > their emigration > to another country? > > URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have > access to a > university library or JSTOR. > > Thanks > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > > > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph.D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > alternative email address: tmacdoca@unisa.ac.za > > > > From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Tue Jul 5 03:38:07 2016 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (R.J.S.Parsons) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 10:38:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <92f94960-6da2-6d65-cd8c-20e8af5c0477@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3c8db4f1-9daa-c8cb-4248-ef7a574385b3@mira.net> <92f94960-6da2-6d65-cd8c-20e8af5c0477@mira.net> Message-ID: <3cc88bd5-1bf4-dfae-b3e9-2df3595e018a@open.ac.uk> Hi Andy - good point about people expressing the virtues. I must think further about that. The next question instantly gives me pause for thought - the idea of a natural virtue that allows people to do bad things. The immediate question, I suppose, is who decides. Is anger never a virtuous act? if it is, who decides when it is and when it isn't? I could conceive of a Leave voter who was justifiably angry about political manipulation, but who would genuinely disassociate themselves from the manifestations of racism we have seen recently. Rob On 05/07/2016 11:15, Andy Blunden wrote: > Rob, yes, you are talking about my topic here. But instead of saying: > "the project has very definitely shaped the virtues its proponents > hold," I say the individuals express the virtues (or lack thereof) of > the project. And in virtue ethics, a natural virtue which allows > people to do bad things, which they would not do if they could > exercise moral wisdom to control their actions, are imperfect, they > are not really virtues. "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" for > example. From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jul 5 03:46:29 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 20:46:29 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <3cc88bd5-1bf4-dfae-b3e9-2df3595e018a@open.ac.uk> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3c8db4f1-9daa-c8cb-4248-ef7a574385b3@mira.net> <92f94960-6da2-6d65-cd8c-20e8af5c0477@mira.net> <3cc88bd5-1bf4-dfae-b3e9-2df3595e018a@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: This is taking us into questions I didn't want to get involved in on this list, Rob. But "who decides?" is not a relevant question really. We are not issuing scores. In the fullness of time, who exercised good moral judgment and who failed to may become clear. But maybe it won't. There is no "criterion", otherwise we wouldn't have a virtue ethics, we'd have a consequentialist ethics, and the thing is that we never actually know the consequences of what we are about to do. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 5/07/2016 8:38 PM, R.J.S.Parsons wrote: > Hi Andy - good point about people expressing the virtues. I must think > further about that. > > The next question instantly gives me pause for thought - the idea of a > natural virtue that allows people to do bad things. The immediate > question, I suppose, is who decides. Is anger never a virtuous act? if > it is, who decides when it is and when it isn't? I could conceive of a > Leave voter who was justifiably angry about political manipulation, but > who would genuinely disassociate themselves from the manifestations of > racism we have seen recently. > > Rob > > On 05/07/2016 11:15, Andy Blunden wrote: >> Rob, yes, you are talking about my topic here. But instead of saying: >> "the project has very definitely shaped the virtues its proponents >> hold," I say the individuals express the virtues (or lack thereof) of >> the project. And in virtue ethics, a natural virtue which allows >> people to do bad things, which they would not do if they could >> exercise moral wisdom to control their actions, are imperfect, they >> are not really virtues. "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" for >> example. From dkirsh@lsu.edu Tue Jul 5 04:53:59 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 11:53:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, Oskar Schindler comes to mind as one who underwent a moral transition owing to cultural circumstances. His early life trajectory was as an opportunist, flattering, bribing, and ingratiating himself with representatives of the power structure, spying for the Nazis against Czechoslovakia, and then moving to Krakow to profiteer from the impending war. Later, he used his treasure and put himself at risk to save Jews from the Holocaust (in 1944 he was held in prison for about a week on suspicion that he was attempting to improve the conditions of his Jewish workers). The challenge, in terms of analyzing this transition in terms of a "project," is that the project was internal; his immediate social milieu was the Nazis and their collaborators. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 12:38 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Appeal for help Comrade and friends, I need some help. I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications for psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I can make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) of people from one culture or another? or similar information about changes in a person's character following their emigration to another country? URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university library or JSTOR. Thanks Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jul 5 05:00:34 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 22:00:34 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Message-ID: <461e1bd5-639e-be46-6f8b-407b36957f41@mira.net> A fascinating example, David. I love that book/movie. His project was objective enough, even if it had to be disguised and had this really odd admixture with his own origins as a money-grubber. :) The story has him going to a key figure within the Warsaw ghetto apparently with a clear mutual-benefit deal to offer, but I get the impression that participation in the project of tricking the nazis and saving Jews from under their noses just gradually drew him in and molded him to its own virtues. I'll have to think about it. :) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 5/07/2016 9:53 PM, David H Kirshner wrote: > Andy, > > Oskar Schindler comes to mind as one who underwent a moral transition owing to cultural circumstances. > His early life trajectory was as an opportunist, flattering, bribing, and ingratiating himself with representatives of the power structure, spying for the Nazis against Czechoslovakia, and then moving to Krakow to profiteer from the impending war. Later, he used his treasure and put himself at risk to save Jews from the Holocaust (in 1944 he was held in prison for about a week on suspicion that he was attempting to improve the conditions of his Jewish workers). > > The challenge, in terms of analyzing this transition in terms of a "project," is that the project was internal; his immediate social milieu was the Nazis and their collaborators. > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 12:38 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Appeal for help > > Comrade and friends, I need some help. > > I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications for psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I can make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. > > Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) of people from one culture or another? or similar information about changes in a person's character following their emigration to another country? > > URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university library or JSTOR. > > Thanks > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Jul 5 05:56:48 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 21:56:48 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <461e1bd5-639e-be46-6f8b-407b36957f41@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <461e1bd5-639e-be46-6f8b-407b36957f41@mira.net> Message-ID: I hated the book and the movie, but I agree that we need to think about it. Oskar Schindler was an inept war profiteer who spent some of his profits on his workers. The 1200 odd lives he saved were more than compensated for by the contributions he made to the Nazi war effort, as a spy, a businessman and even an arms manufacturer. Madeleine Steinberg and her husband were family friends. Madeleine was Catholic, but she was half-English, so she was interned first at Vittel in France as an enemy national and then deported to Theresienstadt. There she saved hundreds of people, many of them still living, by forging baptismal certificates for the children on the trains passing through the camp on the way to the gas chambers at Auschwitz. At Auschwitz, her future husband Jean-Lous was a member of a secret resistance run by Russian prisoners of war, who taught inmates how to keep clean and how to make the most of their rations. Madeleine died four years ago, and I last saw Jean-Louis just before he died at the end of January this year. Neither one was or ever will be celebrated by Hollywood or buried in Jerusalem as Schindler was. In fact, both were denied visas to come and visit us in the USA for many years (and when Jean-Louis finally did get a visa, he collected an amazing array of speeding tickets from what looked like all fifty states). Schindler was a paid up member of the Nazi Party, but Madeline and Jean-Louis (until they resigned in disgust over Maurice Thorez's opposition to legal abortion) were members of the Communist Party of France. You might say they belonged to very different ethical projects. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 9:00 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > A fascinating example, David. I love that book/movie. His project was > objective enough, even if it had to be disguised and had this really odd > admixture with his own origins as a money-grubber. :) The story has him > going to a key figure within the Warsaw ghetto apparently with a clear > mutual-benefit deal to offer, but I get the impression that participation > in the project of tricking the nazis and saving Jews from under their noses > just gradually drew him in and molded him to its own virtues. I'll have to > think about it. :) > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 5/07/2016 9:53 PM, David H Kirshner wrote: > >> Andy, >> >> Oskar Schindler comes to mind as one who underwent a moral transition >> owing to cultural circumstances. >> His early life trajectory was as an opportunist, flattering, bribing, and >> ingratiating himself with representatives of the power structure, spying >> for the Nazis against Czechoslovakia, and then moving to Krakow to >> profiteer from the impending war. Later, he used his treasure and put >> himself at risk to save Jews from the Holocaust (in 1944 he was held in >> prison for about a week on suspicion that he was attempting to improve the >> conditions of his Jewish workers). >> >> The challenge, in terms of analyzing this transition in terms of a >> "project," is that the project was internal; his immediate social milieu >> was the Nazis and their collaborators. >> >> David >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 12:38 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Appeal for help >> >> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >> >> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues >> are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's character; >> my aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues defined as >> deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to mean "social >> context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't need advice about >> issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the nature of virtue ethics >> that it always has strong implications for psychology as well as social >> theory, to the extent that I think I can make a great deal of progress by >> calling on psychological data. >> >> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character >> changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the >> well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability suffers >> a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the differing >> character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) of people from >> one culture or another? or similar information about changes in a person's >> character following their emigration to another country? >> >> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university >> library or JSTOR. >> >> Thanks >> >> Andy >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Jul 5 06:56:07 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 22:56:07 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Andy, Appropriating Martins list for cognition, how about: Situated ethics? Distributed ethics? Extended ethics? Ordinary ethics? Speaking of which, Michael Lambek has an edited book out by the name of that last one! Ordinary Ethics: Anthropology, Language, and Action (and here is a link to a review by Michael Lempert that also points to some others who playing around with virtue ethics in various ways: http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.1.029/673) And speaking of this tradition of anthropology of morality folks who have been thinking about virtue ethics, Webb Keane has a nice new book out called Ethical Life: Its Natural and Social Histories: https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Life-Natural-Social-Histories/dp/0691167737 Anthropologists have for a long time been dealing with the general issue that you flag (becoming a different person because of a different context). It is a basic part of doing fieldwork. You go to another culture and do the same thing that you always did but suddenly in this new culture you find that you aren't the same person you were where you came from. Simple enough. The difficulty is finding someone who has written about it! I think it might be considered too commonplace to write about (but if so, I think they are wrong!). Anyway, I'd be interested to hear more about your project. -greg Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 5, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Well, as is my nature, and given my situation, I am not going to do any of that kind of *investigation*, Michael; I don't really want to explain my larger project because that would lead to confusion of all kinds at this stage. But ... I am just trying to show that the understanding of virtues is enhanced by taking virtues to be attributes of projects, with individuals perhaps acquiring and developing such attributes in and through their participation in, commitment to and place within the project. But it is not my intention to look at participation in projects as a way of individuals acquiring virtues. But simply that the virtuous nature of the project is what is primary, not the prima facie character of the individual participants. The problems I will face in substantiating this are very similar to the issues you raised about cognitive development, but I am confident I can overcome them. > > OK? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> On 5/07/2016 4:21 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: >> Andy, >> >> There are two issues here. Are you exploring the way individual and group ethics change based on the current circumstances - separate from culturally developed "virtues" or are you exploring the way individual adapt to different sets of "virtues" "morals" whatever when they change culture? >> >> Michael >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:15 AM >> To: Nektarios Alexi ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help >> >> Perfect Alex! Thank you. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >>> On 5/07/2016 4:00 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >>> For your request on similar information about changes in a person's >>> character following their emigration to another country? I have used >>> his theory for my PhD thesis on acculturation effect for help seeking >>> intentions for mental ilness. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x/ >>> abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 >>> >>> Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation - Berry - 2008 ... >>> >> /abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02> >>> onlinelibrary.wiley.com >>> How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), Immigration, Acculturation, and >>> Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An International Review, 46: 5-34. doi: >>> 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM >>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Appeal for help >>> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >>> >>> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues >>> are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's >>> character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues >>> defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to >>> mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't >>> need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the >>> nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications for >>> psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I can >>> make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. >>> >>> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character >>> changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the >>> well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability >>> suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the >>> differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) >>> of people from one culture or another? or similar information about >>> changes in a person's character following their emigration to another >>> country? >>> >>> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university >>> library or JSTOR. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jul 5 06:59:51 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 23:59:51 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <59db3d6a-7c4a-63e7-e5fb-e5c9fc755a83@mira.net> You are right, Greg: "I think it might be considered too commonplace to write about." Maybe I do not need to quote research to make this point? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 5/07/2016 11:56 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy, > > Appropriating Martins list for cognition, how about: > > Situated ethics? > Distributed ethics? > Extended ethics? > Ordinary ethics? > > Speaking of which, Michael Lambek has an edited book out by the name > of that last one! > Ordinary Ethics: Anthropology, Language, and Action > (and here is a link to a review by Michael Lempert that also points to > some others who playing around with virtue ethics in various ways: > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.1.029/673) > > And speaking of this tradition of anthropology of morality folks who > have been thinking about virtue ethics, Webb Keane has a nice new book > out called Ethical Life: Its Natural and Social Histories: > https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Life-Natural-Social-Histories/dp/0691167737 > > Anthropologists have for a long time been dealing with the general > issue that you flag (becoming a different person because of a > different context). It is a basic part of doing fieldwork. You go to > another culture and do the same thing that you always did but suddenly > in this new culture you find that you aren't the same person you were > where you came from. Simple enough. The difficulty is finding someone > who has written about it! I think it might be considered too > commonplace to write about (but if so, I think they are wrong!). > > Anyway, I'd be interested to hear more about your project. > > -greg > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 5, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Well, as is my nature, and given my situation, I am not going to do any of that kind of *investigation*, Michael; I don't really want to explain my larger project because that would lead to confusion of all kinds at this stage. But ... I am just trying to show that the understanding of virtues is enhanced by taking virtues to be attributes of projects, with individuals perhaps acquiring and developing such attributes in and through their participation in, commitment to and place within the project. But it is not my intention to look at participation in projects as a way of individuals acquiring virtues. But simply that the virtuous nature of the project is what is primary, not the prima facie character of the individual participants. The problems I will face in substantiating this are very similar to the issues you raised about cognitive development, but I am confident I can overcome them. >> >> OK? >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> On 5/07/2016 4:21 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: >>> Andy, >>> >>> There are two issues here. Are you exploring the way individual and group ethics change based on the current circumstances - separate from culturally developed "virtues" or are you exploring the way individual adapt to different sets of "virtues" "morals" whatever when they change culture? >>> >>> Michael >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:15 AM >>> To: Nektarios Alexi ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help >>> >>> Perfect Alex! Thank you. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> >>>> On 5/07/2016 4:00 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >>>> For your request on similar information about changes in a person's >>>> character following their emigration to another country? I have used >>>> his theory for my PhD thesis on acculturation effect for help seeking >>>> intentions for mental ilness. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x/ >>>> abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 >>>> >>>> Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation - Berry - 2008 ... >>>> >>> /abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02> >>>> onlinelibrary.wiley.com >>>> How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), Immigration, Acculturation, and >>>> Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An International Review, 46: 5-34. doi: >>>> 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>> >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Appeal for help >>>> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >>>> >>>> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues >>>> are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's >>>> character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues >>>> defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to >>>> mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't >>>> need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the >>>> nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications for >>>> psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I can >>>> make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. >>>> >>>> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character >>>> changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the >>>> well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability >>>> suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the >>>> differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) >>>> of people from one culture or another? or similar information about >>>> changes in a person's character following their emigration to another >>>> country? >>>> >>>> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university >>>> library or JSTOR. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jul 5 08:15:04 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 08:15:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <59db3d6a-7c4a-63e7-e5fb-e5c9fc755a83@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <59db3d6a-7c4a-63e7-e5fb-e5c9fc755a83@mira.net> Message-ID: <577bcf28.5a66620a.33a2.ffffd059@mx.google.com> Andy, Charles Taylor?s book ?Sources of the Self? is focused on virtues as ontological and *necessary* for developing meaning potential. May not be specific enough to your inquiry, but is a profound meditation on the deep meaning of virtues that are required as socially formed qualities Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Andy Blunden From schuckthemonkey@gmail.com Tue Jul 5 11:15:56 2016 From: schuckthemonkey@gmail.com (Christopher Schuck) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 14:15:56 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Message-ID: So, I am assuming you are still viewing those virtues as equally "deep-seated" as in traditional virtue theory, but attributes of culture/context as opposed to character/individual? Because it might be necessary to examine that concept of deep-seatedness itself, and how it might change in this new frame of reference. The popular juxtaposition with character is "situationism" a la Walter Mischel, a somewhat watered-down version of context which has often been assumed to be shallower or more unstable. But your juxtaposition of project would turn this on its head. What does it look like for a virtue to be deep-seated within a developing project, rather than a developing individual? It could be interesting to observe how the very meaning of "virtue" changes with your new paradigm, not just the implications for human activity. Another question is whether you are only interested in moral degeneration, or also moral degeneration/growth with change in context. I am thinking of The Wire, Season 3, where the experiment to legalize drugs in "Hamsterdam" generates challenges and projects that have the effect of making certain characters become more virtuous while others degenerate. I wish I could "collaborate" with you on this project! It feels very close to my interests....Although I am undoubtedly more individual-centered. If you're willing to delve into mainstream personality psychology as it relates to *traits* not virtues, the classic person-in-situation, cross-cultural research is a series of studies by Mischel and Shoda. Brian Little has written a lot about "personal projects" and how they shape people in a way that might provide an interesting individualistic foil to what you intend by "project". The most large-scale investigation into moral character from the empirical psych standpoint was recently spearheaded by Christian Miller at Wake Forest University (thecharacterproject.com). His brand new project is www.moralbeacons.org. I should add that some of this research looks bland and terrible. There is a lot of controversy about how to conceptualize virtue and character in current analytic philosophy, especially in the field of action theory and virtue epistemology; much of this has surfaced as empirical research in the so-called "experimental philosophy" movement. Mark Alfano came out with a book "Character as Moral Fiction" arguing that virtues are social constructs that become self-fulfilling prophecies driven by future possibility and social practices; this might interface somewhat with your interest. There is an interdisciplinary collection coming out in the fall edited by Iskra Fileva titled "Questions of Character" that may hit upon relevant themes. Finally, the "strong relational ontology" movement within theoretical psych applies Aristotlean virtue ethics in the context of community and shared obligation. e.g. Brent Slife, Frank Richardson, Blaine Fowers. This might all be way off base from what you are looking for, but thought I'd throw some of it out there. I could always send specific materials on request. Best, Chris On Tuesday, July 5, 2016, Andy Blunden wrote: > Comrade and friends, I need some help. > > I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues are > everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's character; my > aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues defined as > deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to mean "social > context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't need advice about > issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the nature of virtue ethics > that it always has strong implications for psychology as well as social > theory, to the extent that I think I can make a great deal of progress by > calling on psychological data. > > Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character > changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the > well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability suffers > a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the differing > character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) of people from > one culture or another? or similar information about changes in a person's > character following their emigration to another country? > > URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university > library or JSTOR. > > Thanks > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Jul 5 15:01:45 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 07:01:45 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <59db3d6a-7c4a-63e7-e5fb-e5c9fc755a83@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <59db3d6a-7c4a-63e7-e5fb-e5c9fc755a83@mira.net> Message-ID: ?Here are some initial suggestions: Amanda Coffey's The Ethnographic Self: Fieldwork and the Representation of the Self The other big literature that comes to mind is the literature from the 80's and 90's that followed Clifford and Marcus' Writing Culture: The Poetics and Politics of Ethnography. But I think that that piece (and that movement more generally) tends to fly a bit too high and misses the important issue that you are pointing to with regard to the constitution of selves. And one that I just found is Vincent Crapanzano's 1977 essay On the Writing of Ethnography. More than the others, I think this speaks to the issues that you are talking about - the dialectical constitution of self through fieldwork (although Crapanzano's focus is a bit more on the writing stage than it is on the fieldwork itself). I think that your issue is addressed indirectly in Tim Ingold's piece about ethnography That's Enough about Ethnography. Which is a response to some of these preoccupations with ethnography. But Ingold addresses your concerns only indirectly. So this is all to say that while it may be commonplace in anthropology, I don't think that anyone has quite done the work of fully articulating the issue here - and definitely not in terms of a virtue ethical framework. And so, as far as I can see, what you propose would be a useful contribution even for anthropology (although I'm guessing that this would not be your primary audience). -greg ? On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > You are right, Greg: "I think it might be considered too commonplace to > write about." Maybe I do not need to quote research to make this point? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 5/07/2016 11:56 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Andy, >> >> Appropriating Martins list for cognition, how about: >> >> Situated ethics? >> Distributed ethics? >> Extended ethics? >> Ordinary ethics? >> >> Speaking of which, Michael Lambek has an edited book out by the name >> of that last one! >> Ordinary Ethics: Anthropology, Language, and Action >> (and here is a link to a review by Michael Lempert that also points to >> some others who playing around with virtue ethics in various ways: >> http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.1.029/673) >> >> And speaking of this tradition of anthropology of morality folks who >> have been thinking about virtue ethics, Webb Keane has a nice new book >> out called Ethical Life: Its Natural and Social Histories: >> https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Life-Natural-Social-Histories/dp/0691167737 >> >> Anthropologists have for a long time been dealing with the general >> issue that you flag (becoming a different person because of a >> different context). It is a basic part of doing fieldwork. You go to >> another culture and do the same thing that you always did but suddenly >> in this new culture you find that you aren't the same person you were >> where you came from. Simple enough. The difficulty is finding someone >> who has written about it! I think it might be considered too >> commonplace to write about (but if so, I think they are wrong!). >> >> Anyway, I'd be interested to hear more about your project. >> >> -greg >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 5, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Well, as is my nature, and given my situation, I am not going to do any >>> of that kind of *investigation*, Michael; I don't really want to explain my >>> larger project because that would lead to confusion of all kinds at this >>> stage. But ... I am just trying to show that the understanding of virtues >>> is enhanced by taking virtues to be attributes of projects, with >>> individuals perhaps acquiring and developing such attributes in and through >>> their participation in, commitment to and place within the project. But it >>> is not my intention to look at participation in projects as a way of >>> individuals acquiring virtues. But simply that the virtuous nature of the >>> project is what is primary, not the prima facie character of the individual >>> participants. The problems I will face in substantiating this are very >>> similar to the issues you raised about cognitive development, but I am >>> confident I can overcome them. >>> >>> OK? >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> >>>> On 5/07/2016 4:21 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: >>>> Andy, >>>> >>>> There are two issues here. Are you exploring the way individual and >>>> group ethics change based on the current circumstances - separate from >>>> culturally developed "virtues" or are you exploring the way individual >>>> adapt to different sets of "virtues" "morals" whatever when they change >>>> culture? >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:15 AM >>>> To: Nektarios Alexi ; eXtended Mind, >>>> Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help >>>> >>>> Perfect Alex! Thank you. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>> >>>> On 5/07/2016 4:00 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: >>>>> For your request on similar information about changes in a person's >>>>> character following their emigration to another country? I have used >>>>> his theory for my PhD thesis on acculturation effect for help seeking >>>>> intentions for mental ilness. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x/ >>>>> abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 >>>>> >>>>> Immigration, Acculturation, and Adaptation - Berry - 2008 ... >>>>> >>>> /abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02> >>>>> onlinelibrary.wiley.com >>>>> How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), Immigration, Acculturation, and >>>>> Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An International Review, 46: 5-34. doi: >>>>> 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Appeal for help >>>>> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >>>>> >>>>> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue ethics. Virtues >>>>> are everywhere taken to be deep-seated attributes of a person's >>>>> character; my aim is to make the starting point instead from virtues >>>>> defined as deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can take to >>>>> mean "social context" or "system of activity" if you wish. I don't >>>>> need advice about issues and problems of ethics, but it is in in the >>>>> nature of virtue ethics that it always has strong implications for >>>>> psychology as well as social theory, to the extent that I think I can >>>>> make a great deal of progress by calling on psychological data. >>>>> >>>>> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a person's character >>>>> changes with social context (e.g. home/work), any evidence of the >>>>> well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability >>>>> suffers a moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data about the >>>>> differing character (not just preferences or cognition, but virtues) >>>>> of people from one culture or another? or similar information about >>>>> changes in a person's character following their emigration to another >>>>> country? >>>>> >>>>> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access to a university >>>>> library or JSTOR. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>>> >>>> >> > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jul 5 17:48:44 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 10:48:44 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Message-ID: <6b744bfd-17ed-39c1-6079-c18ffdc3d4e0@mira.net> Such a rich collection of connections, Christopher! Thank you. A lot of following up to do. ! "Project" for me is very deep notwithstanding being always developing. Yes, flowering as well as degenerating is of interest, and the Wire episode is certainly illustrative. I think possibly that growing scepticism about the notion of character may be positive for my approach. ""strong relational ontology" movement within theoretical psych applies Aristotlean virtue ethics in the context of community and shared obligation" almost sums up my project, so I'll definitely follow up this group. The project is all about how to make a better world, Christopher. I am already locked in with a collaborator at this stage, but I wouldn't rule it out in the future given the evidence of your interests in this message. Thank you! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 6/07/2016 4:15 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: > So, I am assuming you are still viewing those virtues as > equally "deep-seated" as in traditional virtue theory, but > attributes of culture/context as opposed to > character/individual? Because it might be necessary to > examine that concept of deep-seatedness itself, and how it > might change in this new frame of reference. The popular > juxtaposition with character is "situationism" a la Walter > Mischel, a somewhat watered-down version of context which > has often been assumed to be shallower or more unstable. > But your juxtaposition of project would turn this on its > head. What does it look like for a virtue to be > deep-seated within a developing project, rather than a > developing individual? It could be interesting to observe > how the very meaning of "virtue" changes with your new > paradigm, not just the implications for human activity. > > Another question is whether you are only interested in > moral degeneration, or also moral degeneration/growth with > change in context. I am thinking of The Wire, Season 3, > where the experiment to legalize drugs in "Hamsterdam" > generates challenges and projects that have the effect of > making certain characters become more virtuous while > others degenerate. > > I wish I could "collaborate" with you on this project! It > feels very close to my interests....Although I am > undoubtedly more individual-centered. > > If you're willing to delve into mainstream personality > psychology as it relates to *traits* not virtues, the > classic person-in-situation, cross-cultural research is a > series of studies by Mischel and Shoda. Brian Little has > written a lot about "personal projects" and how they shape > people in a way that might provide an interesting > individualistic foil to what you intend by "project". The > most large-scale investigation into moral character from > the empirical psych standpoint was recently spearheaded by > Christian Miller at Wake Forest University > (thecharacterproject.com > ). His brand new project > is www.moralbeacons.org . I > should add that some of this research looks bland and > terrible. > > There is a lot of controversy about how to conceptualize > virtue and character in current analytic philosophy, > especially in the field of action theory and virtue > epistemology; much of this has surfaced as empirical > research in the so-called "experimental philosophy" > movement. Mark Alfano came out with a book "Character as > Moral Fiction" arguing that virtues are social constructs > that become self-fulfilling prophecies driven by future > possibility and social practices; this might interface > somewhat with your interest. There is an interdisciplinary > collection coming out in the fall edited by Iskra Fileva > titled "Questions of Character" that may hit upon relevant > themes. > > Finally, the "strong relational ontology" movement within > theoretical psych applies Aristotlean virtue ethics in the > context of community and shared obligation. e.g. Brent > Slife, Frank Richardson, Blaine Fowers. > > This might all be way off base from what you are looking > for, but thought I'd throw some of it out there. I could > always send specific materials on request. > > Best, Chris > > > On Tuesday, July 5, 2016, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Comrade and friends, I need some help. > > I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue > ethics. Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated > attributes of a person's character; my aim is to make > the starting point instead from virtues defined as > deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can > take to mean "social context" or "system of activity" > if you wish. I don't need advice about issues and > problems of ethics, but it is in in the nature of > virtue ethics that it always has strong implications > for psychology as well as social theory, to the extent > that I think I can make a great deal of progress by > calling on psychological data. > > Can people point me to research(ers) about how a > person's character changes with social context (e.g. > home/work), any evidence of the well-known phenomenon > in which a person promoted above the ability suffers a > moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data > about the differing character (not just preferences or > cognition, but virtues) of people from one culture or > another? or similar information about changes in a > person's character following their emigration to > another country? > > URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access > to a university library or JSTOR. > > Thanks > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Jul 5 17:50:23 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 10:50:23 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1CDE5@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <59db3d6a-7c4a-63e7-e5fb-e5c9fc755a83@mira.net> Message-ID: <1cc88efd-0457-818f-19b6-dde8ed7d836f@mira.net> Thanks Greg. My notebook is filling up! And Larry. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 6/07/2016 8:01 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > ?Here are some initial suggestions: > Amanda Coffey's The Ethnographic Self: Fieldwork and the > Representation of the Self > > The other big literature that comes to mind is the > literature from the 80's and 90's that followed Clifford > and Marcus' Writing Culture: The Poetics and Politics of > Ethnography. > > But I think that that piece (and that movement more > generally) tends to fly a bit too high and misses the > important issue that you are pointing to with regard to > the constitution of selves. > > And one that I just found is Vincent Crapanzano's 1977 > essay On the Writing of Ethnography. More than the others, > I think this speaks to the issues that you are talking > about - the dialectical constitution of self through > fieldwork (although Crapanzano's focus is a bit more on > the writing stage than it is on the fieldwork itself). > > I think that your issue is addressed indirectly in Tim > Ingold's piece about ethnography That's Enough about > Ethnography. Which is a response to some of these > preoccupations with ethnography. But Ingold addresses your > concerns only indirectly. > > So this is all to say that while it may be commonplace in > anthropology, I don't think that anyone has quite done the > work of fully articulating the issue here - and definitely > not in terms of a virtue ethical framework. And so, as far > as I can see, what you propose would be a useful > contribution even for anthropology (although I'm guessing > that this would not be your primary audience). > > -greg > > > > > > ? > > On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > You are right, Greg: "I think it might be considered > too commonplace to write about." Maybe I do not need > to quote research to make this point? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 5/07/2016 11:56 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Andy, > > Appropriating Martins list for cognition, how about: > > Situated ethics? > Distributed ethics? > Extended ethics? > Ordinary ethics? > > Speaking of which, Michael Lambek has an edited > book out by the name > of that last one! > Ordinary Ethics: Anthropology, Language, and Action > (and here is a link to a review by Michael Lempert > that also points to > some others who playing around with virtue ethics > in various ways: > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.1.029/673) > > And speaking of this tradition of anthropology of > morality folks who > have been thinking about virtue ethics, Webb Keane > has a nice new book > out called Ethical Life: Its Natural and Social > Histories: > https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Life-Natural-Social-Histories/dp/0691167737 > > Anthropologists have for a long time been dealing > with the general > issue that you flag (becoming a different person > because of a > different context). It is a basic part of doing > fieldwork. You go to > another culture and do the same thing that you > always did but suddenly > in this new culture you find that you aren't the > same person you were > where you came from. Simple enough. The difficulty > is finding someone > who has written about it! I think it might be > considered too > commonplace to write about (but if so, I think > they are wrong!). > > Anyway, I'd be interested to hear more about your > project. > > -greg > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 5, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > Well, as is my nature, and given my situation, > I am not going to do any of that kind of > *investigation*, Michael; I don't really want > to explain my larger project because that > would lead to confusion of all kinds at this > stage. But ... I am just trying to show that > the understanding of virtues is enhanced by > taking virtues to be attributes of projects, > with individuals perhaps acquiring and > developing such attributes in and through > their participation in, commitment to and > place within the project. But it is not my > intention to look at participation in projects > as a way of individuals acquiring virtues. But > simply that the virtuous nature of the project > is what is primary, not the prima facie > character of the individual participants. The > problems I will face in substantiating this > are very similar to the issues you raised > about cognitive development, but I am > confident I can overcome them. > > OK? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 5/07/2016 4:21 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Andy, > > There are two issues here. Are you > exploring the way individual and group > ethics change based on the current > circumstances - separate from culturally > developed "virtues" or are you exploring > the way individual adapt to different sets > of "virtues" "morals" whatever when they > change culture? > > Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 2:15 AM > To: Nektarios Alexi > >; > eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help > > Perfect Alex! Thank you. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 5/07/2016 4:00 PM, Nektarios Alexi > wrote: > For your request on similar > information about changes in a person's > character following their emigration > to another country? I have used > his theory for my PhD thesis on > acculturation effect for help seeking > intentions for mental ilness. > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997.tb01087.x/ > abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02 > > Immigration, Acculturation, and > Adaptation - Berry - 2008 ... > /abstract;jsessionid=3F23F698365AD798272D11D57C859C71.f04t02> > onlinelibrary.wiley.com > > How to Cite. Berry, J. W. (1997), > Immigration, Acculturation, and > Adaptation. Applied Psychology:An > International Review, 46: 5-34. doi: > 10.1111/j.1464-0597.1997 ... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > on behalf of Andy Blunden > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 July 2016 3:08:22 PM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Appeal for help > Comrade and friends, I need some help. > > I am setting about developing a new > approach to virtue ethics. Virtues > are everywhere taken to be deep-seated > attributes of a person's > character; my aim is to make the > starting point instead from virtues > defined as deep-seated attributes of a > project, which you can take to > mean "social context" or "system of > activity" if you wish. I don't > need advice about issues and problems > of ethics, but it is in in the > nature of virtue ethics that it always > has strong implications for > psychology as well as social theory, > to the extent that I think I can > make a great deal of progress by > calling on psychological data. > > Can people point me to research(ers) > about how a person's character > changes with social context (e.g. > home/work), any evidence of the > well-known phenomenon in which a > person promoted above the ability > suffers a moral degeneration; any > suitable and reliable data about the > differing character (not just > preferences or cognition, but virtues) > of people from one culture or another? > or similar information about > changes in a person's character > following their emigration to another > country? > > URLs appreciated, or whole books, I > don't have access to a university > library or JSTOR. > > Thanks > > Andy > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From schuckthemonkey@gmail.com Tue Jul 5 19:45:01 2016 From: schuckthemonkey@gmail.com (Christopher Schuck) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 22:45:01 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <6b744bfd-17ed-39c1-6079-c18ffdc3d4e0@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <6b744bfd-17ed-39c1-6079-c18ffdc3d4e0@mira.net> Message-ID: One could make an argument for reading the entire Wire series as an extended study in the possibilities and ambiguities of virtue, alongside any epic tragedy and structural critique. On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Such a rich collection of connections, Christopher! Thank you. A lot of > following up to do. ! > > "Project" for me is very deep notwithstanding being always developing. > Yes, flowering as well as degenerating is of interest, and the Wire > episode is certainly illustrative. > I think possibly that growing scepticism about the notion of character may > be positive for my approach. > ""strong relational ontology" movement within theoretical psych applies > Aristotlean virtue ethics in the context of community and shared > obligation" almost sums up my project, so I'll definitely follow up this > group. > > The project is all about how to make a better world, Christopher. I am > already locked in with a collaborator at this stage, but I wouldn't rule it > out in the future given the evidence of your interests in this message. > > Thank you! > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 6/07/2016 4:15 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: > >> So, I am assuming you are still viewing those virtues as equally >> "deep-seated" as in traditional virtue theory, but attributes of >> culture/context as opposed to character/individual? Because it might be >> necessary to examine that concept of deep-seatedness itself, and how it >> might change in this new frame of reference. The popular juxtaposition with >> character is "situationism" a la Walter Mischel, a somewhat watered-down >> version of context which has often been assumed to be shallower or more >> unstable. But your juxtaposition of project would turn this on its head. >> What does it look like for a virtue to be deep-seated within a developing >> project, rather than a developing individual? It could be interesting to >> observe how the very meaning of "virtue" changes with your new paradigm, >> not just the implications for human activity. >> >> Another question is whether you are only interested in moral >> degeneration, or also moral degeneration/growth with change in context. I >> am thinking of The Wire, Season 3, where the experiment to legalize drugs >> in "Hamsterdam" generates challenges and projects that have the effect of >> making certain characters become more virtuous while others degenerate. >> >> I wish I could "collaborate" with you on this project! It feels very >> close to my interests....Although I am undoubtedly more individual-centered. >> >> If you're willing to delve into mainstream personality psychology as it >> relates to *traits* not virtues, the classic person-in-situation, >> cross-cultural research is a series of studies by Mischel and Shoda. Brian >> Little has written a lot about "personal projects" and how they shape >> people in a way that might provide an interesting individualistic foil to >> what you intend by "project". The most large-scale investigation into moral >> character from the empirical psych standpoint was recently spearheaded by >> Christian Miller at Wake Forest University (thecharacterproject.com < >> http://thecharacterproject.com>). His brand new project is >> www.moralbeacons.org . I should add that >> some of this research looks bland and terrible. >> >> >> There is a lot of controversy about how to conceptualize virtue and >> character in current analytic philosophy, especially in the field of action >> theory and virtue epistemology; much of this has surfaced as empirical >> research in the so-called "experimental philosophy" movement. Mark Alfano >> came out with a book "Character as Moral Fiction" arguing that virtues are >> social constructs that become self-fulfilling prophecies driven by future >> possibility and social practices; this might interface somewhat with your >> interest. There is an interdisciplinary collection coming out in the fall >> edited by Iskra Fileva titled "Questions of Character" that may hit upon >> relevant themes. >> >> Finally, the "strong relational ontology" movement within theoretical >> psych applies Aristotlean virtue ethics in the context of community and >> shared obligation. e.g. Brent Slife, Frank Richardson, Blaine Fowers. >> >> This might all be way off base from what you are looking for, but thought >> I'd throw some of it out there. I could always send specific materials on >> request. >> >> Best, Chris >> >> >> On Tuesday, July 5, 2016, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Comrade and friends, I need some help. >> >> I am setting about developing a new approach to virtue >> ethics. Virtues are everywhere taken to be deep-seated >> attributes of a person's character; my aim is to make >> the starting point instead from virtues defined as >> deep-seated attributes of a project, which you can >> take to mean "social context" or "system of activity" >> if you wish. I don't need advice about issues and >> problems of ethics, but it is in in the nature of >> virtue ethics that it always has strong implications >> for psychology as well as social theory, to the extent >> that I think I can make a great deal of progress by >> calling on psychological data. >> >> Can people point me to research(ers) about how a >> person's character changes with social context (e.g. >> home/work), any evidence of the well-known phenomenon >> in which a person promoted above the ability suffers a >> moral degeneration; any suitable and reliable data >> about the differing character (not just preferences or >> cognition, but virtues) of people from one culture or >> another? or similar information about changes in a >> person's character following their emigration to >> another country? >> >> URLs appreciated, or whole books, I don't have access >> to a university library or JSTOR. >> >> Thanks >> >> Andy >> >> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> >> > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jul 5 23:48:07 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 06:48:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net>, Message-ID: Not sure this qualifies for your project, Andy, but something in your original post reminded me of Lakoff's Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_%28book%29 What really sparked this recall for me was Lakoff's discussion of hybrids. For instance, a factory worker who is liberal at work (supports his labor brothers), but conservative at home (he is king of his castle), or a single mother who works in a law office: she is conservative at work, but liberal at home while raising her children. Lakoff claims that the elections in 2000 came from Karl Rove's mastermind-activation of the frames of these hybrids, who tend to hover around the center (in American politics). Of course, I'm recalling a book I read over 10 years ago, but it certainly assisted in my understanding conservatives, who constantly perplexed me. At least the purpose of the book was successful... for me. Hope it helps. Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Wed Jul 6 00:57:41 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 17:57:41 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Message-ID: Yes, your observation about 'hybrids" is exactly what I was asking for, Annalisa. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 6/07/2016 4:48 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Not sure this qualifies for your project, Andy, but something in your original post reminded me of Lakoff's Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_%28book%29 > > > What really sparked this recall for me was Lakoff's discussion of hybrids. For instance, a factory worker who is liberal at work (supports his labor brothers), but conservative at home (he is king of his castle), or a single mother who works in a law office: she is conservative at work, but liberal at home while raising her children. > > > Lakoff claims that the elections in 2000 came from Karl Rove's mastermind-activation of the frames of these hybrids, who tend to hover around the center (in American politics). > > > Of course, I'm recalling a book I read over 10 years ago, but it certainly assisted in my understanding conservatives, who constantly perplexed me. At least the purpose of the book was successful... for me. > > > Hope it helps. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Jul 6 08:14:50 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 09:14:50 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> Message-ID: <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> Hi Andy, Your appeal has resulted in a very interesting discussion. One thing I think you said early on has been puzzling me, that we don?t know the consequences of our actions. Did I get that wrong? If not, could you explain that briefly? Here is what you wrote that I am referring to: "There is no "criterion", otherwise we wouldn't have a virtue ethics, we'd have a consequentialist ethics, and the thing is that we never actually know the consequences of what we are about to do.? Henry > On Jul 6, 2016, at 1:57 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Yes, your observation about 'hybrids" is exactly what I was asking for, Annalisa. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 6/07/2016 4:48 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> Not sure this qualifies for your project, Andy, but something in your original post reminded me of Lakoff's Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_%28book%29 >> >> >> What really sparked this recall for me was Lakoff's discussion of hybrids. For instance, a factory worker who is liberal at work (supports his labor brothers), but conservative at home (he is king of his castle), or a single mother who works in a law office: she is conservative at work, but liberal at home while raising her children. >> >> >> Lakoff claims that the elections in 2000 came from Karl Rove's mastermind-activation of the frames of these hybrids, who tend to hover around the center (in American politics). >> >> >> Of course, I'm recalling a book I read over 10 years ago, but it certainly assisted in my understanding conservatives, who constantly perplexed me. At least the purpose of the book was successful... for me. >> >> >> Hope it helps. >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Jul 6 08:43:06 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 01:43:06 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> You're not working for Tony Blair are you, Henry? You don't know the consequences of what you do, Henry. OK, you may possibly know the immediate, proximate results of your action, but you can have no idea of the outcome of the chain reaction you set off. Especially in any "difficult" decision, given that we live in a world in which everyone is acting strategically (as in game theory), devising their strategy on the basis of what they think you're going to do, while you are designing your strategy on what you think they think you're going to do, etc. Ask any economist who is capable of given a halfway honest answer. Ask Tony Blair. Ask a bookmaker. We all tend to act as if we knew the consequences of our actions, but we don't. The point is aimed at ethical theories like utilitarianism which say you should do whatever increases the sum total of happiness in the world. This is a stupid idea, even if you did know the consequences of your idea. So Einstein would never have published his paper on relativity, I guess. But of course he'd only know if he did the right thing 50 years later, and then it would be too late. Anyone who isn't a prophet shouldn't get out of bed in the morning. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 7/07/2016 1:14 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Hi Andy, > Your appeal has resulted in a very interesting discussion. One thing I think you said early on has been puzzling me, that we don?t know the consequences of our actions. Did I get that wrong? If not, could you explain that briefly? Here is what you wrote that I am referring to: > > "There is no "criterion", otherwise we wouldn't have a virtue ethics, we'd have a consequentialist ethics, and the thing is that we never actually know the consequences of what we are about to do.? > > Henry > >> On Jul 6, 2016, at 1:57 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Yes, your observation about 'hybrids" is exactly what I was asking for, Annalisa. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> On 6/07/2016 4:48 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> Not sure this qualifies for your project, Andy, but something in your original post reminded me of Lakoff's Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think. >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_%28book%29 >>> >>> >>> What really sparked this recall for me was Lakoff's discussion of hybrids. For instance, a factory worker who is liberal at work (supports his labor brothers), but conservative at home (he is king of his castle), or a single mother who works in a law office: she is conservative at work, but liberal at home while raising her children. >>> >>> >>> Lakoff claims that the elections in 2000 came from Karl Rove's mastermind-activation of the frames of these hybrids, who tend to hover around the center (in American politics). >>> >>> >>> Of course, I'm recalling a book I read over 10 years ago, but it certainly assisted in my understanding conservatives, who constantly perplexed me. At least the purpose of the book was successful... for me. >>> >>> >>> Hope it helps. >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Jul 6 08:59:38 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 08:59:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> Message-ID: Henry/Andy - Hence the centrality of imagination in human experience. mike On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > You're not working for Tony Blair are you, Henry? > > You don't know the consequences of what you do, Henry. OK, you may > possibly know the immediate, proximate results of your action, but you can > have no idea of the outcome of the chain reaction you set off. Especially > in any "difficult" decision, given that we live in a world in which > everyone is acting strategically (as in game theory), devising their > strategy on the basis of what they think you're going to do, while you are > designing your strategy on what you think they think you're going to do, > etc. Ask any economist who is capable of given a halfway honest answer. Ask > Tony Blair. Ask a bookmaker. We all tend to act as if we knew the > consequences of our actions, but we don't. The point is aimed at ethical > theories like utilitarianism which say you should do whatever increases the > sum total of happiness in the world. This is a stupid idea, even if you did > know the consequences of your idea. So Einstein would never have published > his paper on relativity, I guess. But of course he'd only know if he did > the right thing 50 years later, and then it would be too late. Anyone who > isn't a prophet shouldn't get out of bed in the morning. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 7/07/2016 1:14 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Hi Andy, >> Your appeal has resulted in a very interesting discussion. One thing I >> think you said early on has been puzzling me, that we don?t know the >> consequences of our actions. Did I get that wrong? If not, could you >> explain that briefly? Here is what you wrote that I am referring to: >> >> "There is no "criterion", otherwise we wouldn't have a virtue ethics, >> we'd have a consequentialist ethics, and the thing is that we never >> actually know the consequences of what we are about to do.? >> >> Henry >> >> On Jul 6, 2016, at 1:57 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Yes, your observation about 'hybrids" is exactly what I was asking for, >>> Annalisa. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> On 6/07/2016 4:48 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>>> Not sure this qualifies for your project, Andy, but something in your >>>> original post reminded me of Lakoff's Moral Politics: How Liberals and >>>> Conservatives Think. >>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_%28book%29 >>>> >>>> >>>> What really sparked this recall for me was Lakoff's discussion of >>>> hybrids. For instance, a factory worker who is liberal at work (supports >>>> his labor brothers), but conservative at home (he is king of his castle), >>>> or a single mother who works in a law office: she is conservative at work, >>>> but liberal at home while raising her children. >>>> >>>> >>>> Lakoff claims that the elections in 2000 came from Karl Rove's >>>> mastermind-activation of the frames of these hybrids, who tend to hover >>>> around the center (in American politics). >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course, I'm recalling a book I read over 10 years ago, but it >>>> certainly assisted in my understanding conservatives, who constantly >>>> perplexed me. At least the purpose of the book was successful... for me. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hope it helps. >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jul 6 10:02:18 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 17:02:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> , Message-ID: How about that, Andy? Wonders do exist. :) Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2016 1:57 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help Yes, your observation about 'hybrids" is exactly what I was asking for, Annalisa. Andy From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jul 6 10:09:28 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 17:09:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com>, <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> Message-ID: This next post reminds me of Hutchins's Distributed Cognition. I don't think the intentions of increasing happiness in the world is a bad thing. I think trying to quantify it is a bad thing, because everyone sees happiness reflected in the world differently. How does one quantify a reflection? That is where the issue lies. Once you believe that you can quantify something as ethereal as happiness, then you can legitimize data collection and data crunching as a means of reading tea leaves. It's better to leave the leaf reading to the professionals. The intention of utilitarianism is totally appropriate, the execution is what fails, summing that up. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2016 9:43 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help You're not working for Tony Blair are you, Henry? You don't know the consequences of what you do, Henry. OK, you may possibly know the immediate, proximate results of your action, but you can have no idea of the outcome of the chain reaction you set off. Especially in any "difficult" decision, given that we live in a world in which everyone is acting strategically (as in game theory), devising their strategy on the basis of what they think you're going to do, while you are designing your strategy on what you think they think you're going to do, etc. Ask any economist who is capable of given a halfway honest answer. Ask Tony Blair. Ask a bookmaker. We all tend to act as if we knew the consequences of our actions, but we don't. The point is aimed at ethical theories like utilitarianism which say you should do whatever increases the sum total of happiness in the world. This is a stupid idea, even if you did know the consequences of your idea. So Einstein would never have published his paper on relativity, I guess. But of course he'd only know if he did the right thing 50 years later, and then it would be too late. Anyone who isn't a prophet shouldn't get out of bed in the morning. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy Andy Blunden's Home Page home.mira.net Andy Blunden's Home Page with links to pages I maintain and mail-to buttons http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 7/07/2016 1:14 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Hi Andy, > Your appeal has resulted in a very interesting discussion. One thing I think you said early on has been puzzling me, that we don?t know the consequences of our actions. Did I get that wrong? If not, could you explain that briefly? Here is what you wrote that I am referring to: > > "There is no "criterion", otherwise we wouldn't have a virtue ethics, we'd have a consequentialist ethics, and the thing is that we never actually know the consequences of what we are about to do.? > > Henry > >> On Jul 6, 2016, at 1:57 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Yes, your observation about 'hybrids" is exactly what I was asking for, Annalisa. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> On 6/07/2016 4:48 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> Not sure this qualifies for your project, Andy, but something in your original post reminded me of Lakoff's Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think. >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_%28book%29 >>> >>> >>> What really sparked this recall for me was Lakoff's discussion of hybrids. For instance, a factory worker who is liberal at work (supports his labor brothers), but conservative at home (he is king of his castle), or a single mother who works in a law office: she is conservative at work, but liberal at home while raising her children. >>> >>> >>> Lakoff claims that the elections in 2000 came from Karl Rove's mastermind-activation of the frames of these hybrids, who tend to hover around the center (in American politics). >>> >>> >>> Of course, I'm recalling a book I read over 10 years ago, but it certainly assisted in my understanding conservatives, who constantly perplexed me. At least the purpose of the book was successful... for me. >>> >>> >>> Hope it helps. >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Jul 6 15:11:48 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:11:48 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> Message-ID: Mike/Andy, Apropos of imagination and prophets here is an article in the NY Times about the fall from favor of futurists, such as Alvin Toffler, who just died. He wrote Future Shock, a cautionary book about technology, in the vein of the Dedalus/Icarus narrative. I hope you can access the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/07/technology/why-we-need-to-pick-up-alvin-tofflers-torch.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news? Tony Blair wouldn?t have me, Andy. I?m no prophet, but going into Iraq after our 9/11 was insane. Stupidity and cupidity must go against any idea of morality: "the well-known phenomenon in which a person promoted above the ability suffers a moral degeneration?, as you put it, Andy. President George W Bush would fit that phenomenon, as would Trump. Speaking of family as a project, Both W and Trump owe their ?promotions" to their fathers. Bush?s dad seemed a relatively honorable man, Trump?s not so much. Henry > On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:59 AM, mike cole wrote: > > Henry/Andy - Hence the centrality of imagination in human experience. > mike > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> You're not working for Tony Blair are you, Henry? >> >> You don't know the consequences of what you do, Henry. OK, you may >> possibly know the immediate, proximate results of your action, but you can >> have no idea of the outcome of the chain reaction you set off. Especially >> in any "difficult" decision, given that we live in a world in which >> everyone is acting strategically (as in game theory), devising their >> strategy on the basis of what they think you're going to do, while you are >> designing your strategy on what you think they think you're going to do, >> etc. Ask any economist who is capable of given a halfway honest answer. Ask >> Tony Blair. Ask a bookmaker. We all tend to act as if we knew the >> consequences of our actions, but we don't. The point is aimed at ethical >> theories like utilitarianism which say you should do whatever increases the >> sum total of happiness in the world. This is a stupid idea, even if you did >> know the consequences of your idea. So Einstein would never have published >> his paper on relativity, I guess. But of course he'd only know if he did >> the right thing 50 years later, and then it would be too late. Anyone who >> isn't a prophet shouldn't get out of bed in the morning. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> On 7/07/2016 1:14 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >>> Hi Andy, >>> Your appeal has resulted in a very interesting discussion. One thing I >>> think you said early on has been puzzling me, that we don?t know the >>> consequences of our actions. Did I get that wrong? If not, could you >>> explain that briefly? Here is what you wrote that I am referring to: >>> >>> "There is no "criterion", otherwise we wouldn't have a virtue ethics, >>> we'd have a consequentialist ethics, and the thing is that we never >>> actually know the consequences of what we are about to do.? >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> On Jul 6, 2016, at 1:57 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes, your observation about 'hybrids" is exactly what I was asking for, >>>> Annalisa. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>>> On 6/07/2016 4:48 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>>> >>>>> Not sure this qualifies for your project, Andy, but something in your >>>>> original post reminded me of Lakoff's Moral Politics: How Liberals and >>>>> Conservatives Think. >>>>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_%28book%29 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What really sparked this recall for me was Lakoff's discussion of >>>>> hybrids. For instance, a factory worker who is liberal at work (supports >>>>> his labor brothers), but conservative at home (he is king of his castle), >>>>> or a single mother who works in a law office: she is conservative at work, >>>>> but liberal at home while raising her children. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Lakoff claims that the elections in 2000 came from Karl Rove's >>>>> mastermind-activation of the frames of these hybrids, who tend to hover >>>>> around the center (in American politics). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Of course, I'm recalling a book I read over 10 years ago, but it >>>>> certainly assisted in my understanding conservatives, who constantly >>>>> perplexed me. At least the purpose of the book was successful... for me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hope it helps. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Wed Jul 6 17:24:09 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 10:24:09 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> Message-ID: <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> Exactly, Annalisa, I see ethical activity as "distributed" in just the same way that cognition is distributed. According to classical utilitarianism, "happiness," a.k.a. "utility," is measured by money. Utilitarianism is the ethical mirror of economic science. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 7/07/2016 3:09 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > This next post reminds me of Hutchins's Distributed Cognition. > > > I don't think the intentions of increasing happiness in > the world is a bad thing. I think trying to quantify it is > a bad thing, because everyone sees happiness reflected in > the world differently. How does one quantify a reflection? > > > That is where the issue lies. > > > Once you believe that you can quantify something as > ethereal as happiness, then you can legitimize data > collection and data crunching as a means of reading tea > leaves. > > > It's better to leave the leaf reading to the professionals. > > > The intention of utilitarianism is totally appropriate, > the execution is what fails, summing that up. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Andy > Blunden > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 6, 2016 9:43 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help > You're not working for Tony Blair are you, Henry? > > You don't know the consequences of what you do, Henry. OK, > you may possibly know the immediate, proximate results of > your action, but you can have no idea of the outcome of the > chain reaction you set off. Especially in any "difficult" > decision, given that we live in a world in which everyone is > acting strategically (as in game theory), devising their > strategy on the basis of what they think you're going to do, > while you are designing your strategy on what you think they > think you're going to do, etc. Ask any economist who is > capable of given a halfway honest answer. Ask Tony Blair. > Ask a bookmaker. We all tend to act as if we knew the > consequences of our actions, but we don't. The point is > aimed at ethical theories like utilitarianism which say you > should do whatever increases the sum total of happiness in > the world. This is a stupid idea, even if you did know the > consequences of your idea. So Einstein would never have > published his paper on relativity, I guess. But of course > he'd only know if he did the right thing 50 years later, and > then it would be too late. Anyone who isn't a prophet > shouldn't get out of bed in the morning. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > Andy Blunden's Home Page > home.mira.net > Andy Blunden's Home Page with links to pages I maintain > and mail-to buttons > > > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > > On 7/07/2016 1:14 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > Your appeal has resulted in a very interesting > discussion. One thing I think you said early on has been > puzzling me, that we don?t know the consequences of our > actions. Did I get that wrong? If not, could you explain > that briefly? Here is what you wrote that I am referring to: > > > > "There is no "criterion", otherwise we wouldn't have a > virtue ethics, we'd have a consequentialist ethics, and > the thing is that we never actually know the consequences > of what we are about to do.? > > > > Henry > > > >> On Jul 6, 2016, at 1:57 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > >> > >> Yes, your observation about 'hybrids" is exactly what I > was asking for, Annalisa. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Andy Blunden > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy > >> > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > >> On 6/07/2016 4:48 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >>> Not sure this qualifies for your project, Andy, but > something in your original post reminded me of Lakoff's > Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think. > >>> > >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_%28book%29 > >>> > >>> > >>> What really sparked this recall for me was Lakoff's > discussion of hybrids. For instance, a factory worker who > is liberal at work (supports his labor brothers), but > conservative at home (he is king of his castle), or a > single mother who works in a law office: she is > conservative at work, but liberal at home while raising > her children. > >>> > >>> > >>> Lakoff claims that the elections in 2000 came from > Karl Rove's mastermind-activation of the frames of these > hybrids, who tend to hover around the center (in American > politics). > >>> > >>> > >>> Of course, I'm recalling a book I read over 10 years > ago, but it certainly assisted in my understanding > conservatives, who constantly perplexed me. At least the > purpose of the book was successful... for me. > >>> > >>> > >>> Hope it helps. > >>> > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jul 6 21:25:44 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 04:25:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> , <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> Message-ID: Then to you, Andy, ethics is a relative enterprise, I gather. Not an ideal good. Nice extension of the metaphor of reflection. Don't you mean though, regarding utilitarianism, it's a justification for economic science? If utility is indeed a mirror, it's more like a hall of mirrors, rather than a single one: full of multiple angles, crazy distortions and Orson Wells running about muttering "Rosebud." If so, I would agree with that conception of utility...which is also quite distributed. Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Wed Jul 6 23:21:09 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 16:21:09 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> Message-ID: <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> I don't really understand the question, Annalisa. Ethics is the study of human activity in terms of its practical norms, that is all. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 7/07/2016 2:25 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Then to you, Andy, ethics is a relative enterprise, I > gather. Not an ideal good. > > Nice extension of the metaphor of reflection. > > Don't you mean though, regarding utilitarianism, it's a > justification for economic science? If utility is > indeed a mirror, it's more like a hall of mirrors, rather > than a single one: full of multiple angles, > crazy distortions and Orson Wells running about muttering > "Rosebud." > > If so, I would agree with that conception of > utility...which is also quite distributed. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jul 7 18:18:38 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 01:18:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> , <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> Message-ID: Hi Andy, So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" (????). A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits are hard to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not bad ones. Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" it seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human morality in the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not good and not right so one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits are worth having). I consider that to be a consideration of values a priori. In terms of what is ideal or hypothetical. Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, after the fact. Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" and prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. This avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something being more right, or having more goodness than something else. Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification for economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is usually not done scientifically, though it is very mathematical in nature. To measure utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, and that's why I used the metaphor hall of mirrors. Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, but not in another. Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal application, and so it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective value, but a reflected one, if I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective while a reflected one is a universal, objective value. Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know anyone who doesn't value happiness. However what makes people happy is a projected, subjective value. That's where utility comes in. For what that is worth. Kind regards, Annalisa From schuckthemonkey@gmail.com Thu Jul 7 18:36:05 2016 From: schuckthemonkey@gmail.com (Christopher Schuck) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 21:36:05 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> Message-ID: Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics as normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human activity in terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists argue that practical reason is inherently normative). Others might see it more in terms of "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're discussing how ethics is to even be conceptualized and approached (e.g. questioning dichotomies of "good" and "evil", whether a priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues as opposed to criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into meta-ethics. For what that's worth. On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. > > > Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" (????). > > > A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits are hard > to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not bad ones. > > > Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" it > seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. > > > Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human morality in > the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not good and not right so > one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits are worth > having). I consider that to be a consideration of values a priori. In terms > of what is ideal or hypothetical. > > > Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, after the > fact. > > > Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" and > prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. This > avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something being more > right, or having more goodness than something else. > > > Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification for > economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is usually not done > scientifically, though it is very mathematical in nature. To measure > utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, and that's why I used the > metaphor hall of mirrors. > > > Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. > > > Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, but not in > another. > > > Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal application, and so > it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective value, but a reflected one, if > I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective while a > reflected one is a universal, objective value. > > > Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know anyone who > doesn't value happiness. However what makes people happy is a projected, > subjective value. That's where utility comes in. > > > For what that is worth. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Jul 7 18:52:13 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 11:52:13 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> Message-ID: <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> ... and this is really not the forum for clarifying these issues of Ethics, honestly. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 8/07/2016 11:36 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: > Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics as > normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human activity in > terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists argue that practical > reason is inherently normative). Others might see it more in terms of > "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're discussing how ethics is to > even be conceptualized and approached (e.g. questioning dichotomies of > "good" and "evil", whether a priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues as > opposed to criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into > meta-ethics. For what that's worth. > > On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> Hi Andy, >> >> >> So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. >> >> >> Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" (????). >> >> >> A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits are hard >> to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not bad ones. >> >> >> Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" it >> seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. >> >> >> Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human morality in >> the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not good and not right so >> one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits are worth >> having). I consider that to be a consideration of values a priori. In terms >> of what is ideal or hypothetical. >> >> >> Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, after the >> fact. >> >> >> Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" and >> prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. This >> avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something being more >> right, or having more goodness than something else. >> >> >> Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification for >> economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is usually not done >> scientifically, though it is very mathematical in nature. To measure >> utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, and that's why I used the >> metaphor hall of mirrors. >> >> >> Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. >> >> >> Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, but not in >> another. >> >> >> Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal application, and so >> it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective value, but a reflected one, if >> I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective while a >> reflected one is a universal, objective value. >> >> >> Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know anyone who >> doesn't value happiness. However what makes people happy is a projected, >> subjective value. That's where utility comes in. >> >> >> For what that is worth. >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jul 7 19:36:41 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 02:36:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> , Message-ID: Hello, I was trying to understand what Andy meant when he said "ethics" for the very reason it's a broad word. He had said "Ethics is..." not "I define ethics to be..." One is a generalization, the other is a viewpoint. It seemed important to ask. As I had posted, that is how I define the word "ethics", which would be called meta-ethics, as a point of contrast. I think this a perfect way to trim the offshoot-thread concerning ethics, now that it's now clear(er). [?] Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Christopher Schuck Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 7:36 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics as normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human activity in terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists argue that practical reason is inherently normative). Others might see it more in terms of "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're discussing how ethics is to even be conceptualized and approached (e.g. questioning dichotomies of "good" and "evil", whether a priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues as opposed to criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into meta-ethics. For what that's worth. On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. > > > Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" (????). > > > A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits are hard > to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not bad ones. > > > Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" it > seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. > > > Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human morality in > the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not good and not right so > one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits are worth > having). I consider that to be a consideration of values a priori. In terms > of what is ideal or hypothetical. > > > Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, after the > fact. > > > Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" and > prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. This > avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something being more > right, or having more goodness than something else. > > > Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification for > economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is usually not done > scientifically, though it is very mathematical in nature. To measure > utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, and that's why I used the > metaphor hall of mirrors. > > > Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. > > > Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, but not in > another. > > > Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal application, and so > it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective value, but a reflected one, if > I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective while a > reflected one is a universal, objective value. > > > Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know anyone who > doesn't value happiness. However what makes people happy is a projected, > subjective value. That's where utility comes in. > > > For what that is worth. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OutlookEmoji-?.png Type: image/png Size: 488 bytes Desc: =?utf-8?B?T3V0bG9va0Vtb2ppLfCfmIoucG5n?= Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160708/7b1e0680/attachment.png From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jul 7 20:30:21 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 12:30:21 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> Message-ID: Anyone have suggestions of writings on ethics from a CHAT perspective? Also, I was quite taken by Annalisa's linking ethics to "habit" precisely because this is the way that I would like to construe ethics - embodied habits/dispositions (person X habitually responds to a particular type of situation with behavior Y). To say anything more requires invoking one ethical framework or another (and even my definition does this since the construal of "a particular type of situation" as such necessarily already invokes cultural meaningfulnesses that are also likely to entail ethical frameworks). -greg On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > ... and this is really not the forum for clarifying these issues of > Ethics, honestly. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 8/07/2016 11:36 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: > >> Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics as >> normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human activity in >> terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists argue that practical >> reason is inherently normative). Others might see it more in terms of >> "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're discussing how ethics is to >> even be conceptualized and approached (e.g. questioning dichotomies of >> "good" and "evil", whether a priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues >> as >> opposed to criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into >> meta-ethics. For what that's worth. >> >> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >> Hi Andy, >>> >>> >>> So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. >>> >>> >>> Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" >>> (????). >>> >>> >>> A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits are >>> hard >>> to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not bad ones. >>> >>> >>> Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" it >>> seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. >>> >>> >>> Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human morality in >>> the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not good and not right >>> so >>> one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits are >>> worth >>> having). I consider that to be a consideration of values a priori. In >>> terms >>> of what is ideal or hypothetical. >>> >>> >>> Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, after the >>> fact. >>> >>> >>> Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" and >>> prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. >>> This >>> avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something being more >>> right, or having more goodness than something else. >>> >>> >>> Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification for >>> economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is usually not >>> done >>> scientifically, though it is very mathematical in nature. To measure >>> utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, and that's why I used the >>> metaphor hall of mirrors. >>> >>> >>> Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. >>> >>> >>> Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, but not >>> in >>> another. >>> >>> >>> Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal application, and >>> so >>> it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective value, but a reflected one, >>> if >>> I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective while a >>> reflected one is a universal, objective value. >>> >>> >>> Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know anyone who >>> doesn't value happiness. However what makes people happy is a projected, >>> subjective value. That's where utility comes in. >>> >>> >>> For what that is worth. >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >> > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jul 7 20:31:53 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 12:31:53 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> Message-ID: I'm sorry to use the term "ethics". Andy, do you have a preferred set of terms? Seems like this might be a fertile area to develop CHAT approaches to. -greg On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Anyone have suggestions of writings on ethics from a CHAT perspective? > > Also, I was quite taken by Annalisa's linking ethics to "habit" precisely > because this is the way that I would like to construe ethics - embodied > habits/dispositions (person X habitually responds to a particular type of > situation with behavior Y). To say anything more requires invoking one > ethical framework or another (and even my definition does this since the > construal of "a particular type of situation" as such necessarily already > invokes cultural meaningfulnesses that are also likely to entail ethical > frameworks). > > -greg > > > > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> ... and this is really not the forum for clarifying these issues of >> Ethics, honestly. >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> On 8/07/2016 11:36 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: >> >>> Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics as >>> normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human activity in >>> terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists argue that practical >>> reason is inherently normative). Others might see it more in terms of >>> "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're discussing how ethics is to >>> even be conceptualized and approached (e.g. questioning dichotomies of >>> "good" and "evil", whether a priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues >>> as >>> opposed to criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into >>> meta-ethics. For what that's worth. >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Andy, >>>> >>>> >>>> So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. >>>> >>>> >>>> Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" >>>> (????). >>>> >>>> >>>> A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits are >>>> hard >>>> to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not bad ones. >>>> >>>> >>>> Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" it >>>> seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. >>>> >>>> >>>> Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human morality in >>>> the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not good and not >>>> right so >>>> one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits are >>>> worth >>>> having). I consider that to be a consideration of values a priori. In >>>> terms >>>> of what is ideal or hypothetical. >>>> >>>> >>>> Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, after the >>>> fact. >>>> >>>> >>>> Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" and >>>> prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. >>>> This >>>> avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something being more >>>> right, or having more goodness than something else. >>>> >>>> >>>> Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification for >>>> economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is usually not >>>> done >>>> scientifically, though it is very mathematical in nature. To measure >>>> utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, and that's why I used >>>> the >>>> metaphor hall of mirrors. >>>> >>>> >>>> Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. >>>> >>>> >>>> Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, but not >>>> in >>>> another. >>>> >>>> >>>> Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal application, and >>>> so >>>> it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective value, but a reflected >>>> one, if >>>> I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective while a >>>> reflected one is a universal, objective value. >>>> >>>> >>>> Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know anyone who >>>> doesn't value happiness. However what makes people happy is a projected, >>>> subjective value. That's where utility comes in. >>>> >>>> >>>> For what that is worth. >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jul 7 20:46:10 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 03:46:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> , Message-ID: Greg, (I'm starting a new thread with I hope a less loaded word than ethics). When you said, "person X habitually responds to a particular type of situation with behavior Y" I was reminded of JJ Gibson's affordances, but it depends upon what you mean by "situation," right? Just thought to add this to the mix. Kind regards, Annalisa From schuckthemonkey@gmail.com Thu Jul 7 20:59:08 2016 From: schuckthemonkey@gmail.com (Christopher Schuck) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 23:59:08 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> Message-ID: And I certainly did not mean to further complicate the discussion, in making the meta-ethics distinction! Was just trying to provide a way back out, so people might find it easier to focus on those other interesting points that happen to overlap with various fields of "ethics". Like habit, for instance....That's fascinating about the etymological link - never knew that - most people just stop at "ethos" which has such different connotations these days. On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:31 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > I'm sorry to use the term "ethics". > Andy, do you have a preferred set of terms? > Seems like this might be a fertile area to develop CHAT approaches to. > -greg > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Anyone have suggestions of writings on ethics from a CHAT perspective? > > > > Also, I was quite taken by Annalisa's linking ethics to "habit" precisely > > because this is the way that I would like to construe ethics - embodied > > habits/dispositions (person X habitually responds to a particular type of > > situation with behavior Y). To say anything more requires invoking one > > ethical framework or another (and even my definition does this since the > > construal of "a particular type of situation" as such necessarily already > > invokes cultural meaningfulnesses that are also likely to entail ethical > > frameworks). > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > >> ... and this is really not the forum for clarifying these issues of > >> Ethics, honestly. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Andy Blunden > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy > >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > >> On 8/07/2016 11:36 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: > >> > >>> Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics as > >>> normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human activity > in > >>> terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists argue that practical > >>> reason is inherently normative). Others might see it more in terms of > >>> "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're discussing how ethics is to > >>> even be conceptualized and approached (e.g. questioning dichotomies of > >>> "good" and "evil", whether a priori or a posteriori is relevant, > virtues > >>> as > >>> opposed to criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into > >>> meta-ethics. For what that's worth. > >>> > >>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Andy, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" > >>>> (????). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits are > >>>> hard > >>>> to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not bad ones. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" it > >>>> seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human morality > in > >>>> the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not good and not > >>>> right so > >>>> one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits are > >>>> worth > >>>> having). I consider that to be a consideration of values a priori. In > >>>> terms > >>>> of what is ideal or hypothetical. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, after > the > >>>> fact. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" and > >>>> prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. > >>>> This > >>>> avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something being > more > >>>> right, or having more goodness than something else. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification for > >>>> economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is usually not > >>>> done > >>>> scientifically, though it is very mathematical in nature. To measure > >>>> utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, and that's why I used > >>>> the > >>>> metaphor hall of mirrors. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a > reflection. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, but > not > >>>> in > >>>> another. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal application, > and > >>>> so > >>>> it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective value, but a reflected > >>>> one, if > >>>> I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective while a > >>>> reflected one is a universal, objective value. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know anyone > who > >>>> doesn't value happiness. However what makes people happy is a > projected, > >>>> subjective value. That's where utility comes in. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> For what that is worth. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Kind regards, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Annalisa > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jul 7 22:38:02 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 22:38:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> Message-ID: <577f3c6b.4436620a.14620.298a@mx.google.com> My reading of Kockleman?s ?The Semiotic Stance? would suggest ethics can be approached as a (quality) of ethics, an existential (instance) of ethics, and a general (type) of ethics. The relations concerning ethics including quality (of) ? instance (of) - and type (of) - ethics are intimately interweaving strands or aspects of ethics as ethics appear within our horizons of meaningful understanding Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Christopher Schuck From james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk Thu Jul 7 22:59:11 2016 From: james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk (Ma, James (james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk)) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 05:59:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <577f3c6b.4436620a.14620.298a@mx.google.com> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> , <577f3c6b.4436620a.14620.298a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Would there also be a global or international (form) of ethis? If so, would it be in itself unethical? James ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Lplarry Sent: 08 July 2016 06:38:02 To: Christopher Schuck; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help My reading of Kockleman?s ?The Semiotic Stance? would suggest ethics can be approached as a (quality) of ethics, an existential (instance) of ethics, and a general (type) of ethics. The relations concerning ethics including quality (of) ? instance (of) - and type (of) - ethics are intimately interweaving strands or aspects of ethics as ethics appear within our horizons of meaningful understanding Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Christopher Schuck From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Fri Jul 8 01:38:22 2016 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (R.J.S.Parsons) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:38:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> Message-ID: Sorry, can't keep my hands off this. "Ethos" in Greek is one of those untranslatable words that bundles up a whole set of concepts without an equivalent in English. It includes the idea of habits, habitually, but it is not rght to say it *is* the Greek word for habit. I'm not against us discussing habits at all; it just awoke the slumbering classicist in me. Rob On 08/07/2016 04:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Greg, > > (I'm starting a new thread with I hope a less loaded word than ethics). > > When you said, "person X habitually responds to a particular type of situation with behavior Y" I was reminded of JJ Gibson's affordances, but it depends upon what you mean by "situation," right? > > Just thought to add this to the mix. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Jul 8 02:10:37 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:10:37 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> Message-ID: Rob, Please do say more. What is the classical notion of "ethics"? or "'ethos"? etc. -greg On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 5:38 PM, R.J.S.Parsons wrote: > Sorry, can't keep my hands off this. "Ethos" in Greek is one of those > untranslatable words that bundles up a whole set of concepts without an > equivalent in English. It includes the idea of habits, habitually, but > it is not rght to say it *is* the Greek word for habit. > > I'm not against us discussing habits at all; it just awoke the > slumbering classicist in me. > > Rob > > On 08/07/2016 04:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Greg, > > > > (I'm starting a new thread with I hope a less loaded word than ethics). > > > > When you said, "person X habitually responds to a particular type of > situation with behavior Y" I was reminded of JJ Gibson's affordances, but > it depends upon what you mean by "situation," right? > > > > Just thought to add this to the mix. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk Fri Jul 8 03:31:09 2016 From: james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk (Ma, James (james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk)) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 10:31:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> , Message-ID: Hello Rob, I'd be interested to hear more too - perhaps if you could shed light on the entirety of Aristotelian rhetoric (ethos, pathos and logos). I'm always interested in what falls within the realm of subjectivity. James ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Greg Thompson Sent: 08 July 2016 10:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) Rob, Please do say more. What is the classical notion of "ethics"? or "'ethos"? etc. -greg On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 5:38 PM, R.J.S.Parsons wrote: > Sorry, can't keep my hands off this. "Ethos" in Greek is one of those > untranslatable words that bundles up a whole set of concepts without an > equivalent in English. It includes the idea of habits, habitually, but > it is not rght to say it *is* the Greek word for habit. > > I'm not against us discussing habits at all; it just awoke the > slumbering classicist in me. > > Rob > > On 08/07/2016 04:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Greg, > > > > (I'm starting a new thread with I hope a less loaded word than ethics). > > > > When you said, "person X habitually responds to a particular type of > situation with behavior Y" I was reminded of JJ Gibson's affordances, but > it depends upon what you mean by "situation," right? > > > > Just thought to add this to the mix. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson Gregory Thompson | Brigham Young University - Academia.edu byu.academia.edu Gregory Thompson, Brigham Young University, Anthropology Department, Faculty Member. Studies Education, Social Psychology, and Discourse Analysis. From mariasucupiralins@terra.com.br Fri Jul 8 03:37:46 2016 From: mariasucupiralins@terra.com.br (Maria Judith Sucupira da Costa Lins) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 07:37:46 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: LRK0bk0VabMMJLRK3bHZGZ References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> LRK0bk0Va bMMJLRK3bHZGZ Message-ID: <000501d1d904$c4fdf7d0$4ef9e770$@terra.com.br> I agree, because habits for ethos is a constructo in polis, society. It is not conditioned. We can translate for 'habitus' to make it different. maria -----Mensagem original----- De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de R.J.S.Parsons Enviada em: sexta-feira, 8 de julho de 2016 05:38 Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) Sorry, can't keep my hands off this. "Ethos" in Greek is one of those untranslatable words that bundles up a whole set of concepts without an equivalent in English. It includes the idea of habits, habitually, but it is not rght to say it *is* the Greek word for habit. I'm not against us discussing habits at all; it just awoke the slumbering classicist in me. Rob On 08/07/2016 04:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Greg, > > (I'm starting a new thread with I hope a less loaded word than ethics). > > When you said, "person X habitually responds to a particular type of situation with behavior Y" I was reminded of JJ Gibson's affordances, but it depends upon what you mean by "situation," right? > > Just thought to add this to the mix. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > --- Este email foi escaneado pelo Avast antiv?rus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jrtudge@uncg.edu Fri Jul 8 05:03:11 2016 From: jrtudge@uncg.edu (Jonathan Tudge) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:03:11 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> Message-ID: I think that virtue ethicists influenced by Aristotle would be cautious about linking virtues and habits. A habit may be simply rule-governed. For example, I follow the rule to always say "thank you" when given a gift and always give, in return, a gift of equal value, but I do so without understanding why I should express thanks. I can hardly be said to have the virtue of gratitude. That's why neo-Aristotelians invoke the concept of phronesis, or practical wisdom. I have to understand the meaning of expressing thanks and engaging in grateful behaviour, as well as doing it on a regular basis (when appropriate), and that comes with experience. In case anyone's interested, fuller thoughts on this issue appear in Tudge, Freitas, & O'Brien (2015). The virtue of gratitude: A developmental and cultural approach. * Human Development, 58*, 281-300. Cheers, Jon ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathan Tudge Professor Office: 155 Stone http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/ Mailing address: 248 Stone Building Department of Human Development and Family Studies PO Box 26170 The University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27402-6170 USA phone (336) 223-6181 fax (336) 334-5076 http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Anyone have suggestions of writings on ethics from a CHAT perspective? > > Also, I was quite taken by Annalisa's linking ethics to "habit" precisely > because this is the way that I would like to construe ethics - embodied > habits/dispositions (person X habitually responds to a particular type of > situation with behavior Y). To say anything more requires invoking one > ethical framework or another (and even my definition does this since the > construal of "a particular type of situation" as such necessarily already > invokes cultural meaningfulnesses that are also likely to entail ethical > frameworks). > > -greg > > > > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > ... and this is really not the forum for clarifying these issues of > > Ethics, honestly. > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 8/07/2016 11:36 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: > > > >> Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics as > >> normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human activity in > >> terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists argue that practical > >> reason is inherently normative). Others might see it more in terms of > >> "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're discussing how ethics is to > >> even be conceptualized and approached (e.g. questioning dichotomies of > >> "good" and "evil", whether a priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues > >> as > >> opposed to criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into > >> meta-ethics. For what that's worth. > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Andy, > >>> > >>> > >>> So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. > >>> > >>> > >>> Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" > >>> (????). > >>> > >>> > >>> A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits are > >>> hard > >>> to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not bad ones. > >>> > >>> > >>> Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" it > >>> seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. > >>> > >>> > >>> Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human morality in > >>> the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not good and not > right > >>> so > >>> one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits are > >>> worth > >>> having). I consider that to be a consideration of values a priori. In > >>> terms > >>> of what is ideal or hypothetical. > >>> > >>> > >>> Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, after the > >>> fact. > >>> > >>> > >>> Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" and > >>> prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. > >>> This > >>> avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something being > more > >>> right, or having more goodness than something else. > >>> > >>> > >>> Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification for > >>> economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is usually not > >>> done > >>> scientifically, though it is very mathematical in nature. To measure > >>> utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, and that's why I used > the > >>> metaphor hall of mirrors. > >>> > >>> > >>> Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. > >>> > >>> > >>> Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, but not > >>> in > >>> another. > >>> > >>> > >>> Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal application, and > >>> so > >>> it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective value, but a reflected > one, > >>> if > >>> I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective while a > >>> reflected one is a universal, objective value. > >>> > >>> > >>> Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know anyone who > >>> doesn't value happiness. However what makes people happy is a > projected, > >>> subjective value. That's where utility comes in. > >>> > >>> > >>> For what that is worth. > >>> > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Jul 8 05:19:06 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:19:06 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> Message-ID: <2690c440-65e8-4a81-8f8a-46d4ef141179@mira.net> Perhaps xmca could take a break from discussing Ethics while everyone studies http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/introduction/ Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 8/07/2016 10:03 PM, Jonathan Tudge wrote: > I think that virtue ethicists influenced by Aristotle would be cautious > about linking virtues and habits. A habit may be simply rule-governed. For > example, I follow the rule to always say "thank you" when given a gift and > always give, in return, a gift of equal value, but I do so without > understanding why I should express thanks. I can hardly be said to have > the virtue of gratitude. That's why neo-Aristotelians invoke the concept > of phronesis, or practical wisdom. I have to understand the meaning of > expressing thanks and engaging in grateful behaviour, as well as doing it > on a regular basis (when appropriate), and that comes with experience. > > In case anyone's interested, fuller thoughts on this issue appear in Tudge, > Freitas, & O'Brien (2015). The virtue of gratitude: A developmental and > cultural approach. * Human Development, 58*, 281-300. > > Cheers, > > Jon > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Jonathan Tudge > > Professor > Office: 155 Stone > > http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/ > > Mailing address: > 248 Stone Building > Department of Human Development and Family Studies > PO Box 26170 > The University of North Carolina at Greensboro > Greensboro, NC 27402-6170 > USA > > phone (336) 223-6181 > fax (336) 334-5076 > > http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html > > > On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Anyone have suggestions of writings on ethics from a CHAT perspective? >> >> Also, I was quite taken by Annalisa's linking ethics to "habit" precisely >> because this is the way that I would like to construe ethics - embodied >> habits/dispositions (person X habitually responds to a particular type of >> situation with behavior Y). To say anything more requires invoking one >> ethical framework or another (and even my definition does this since the >> construal of "a particular type of situation" as such necessarily already >> invokes cultural meaningfulnesses that are also likely to entail ethical >> frameworks). >> >> -greg >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> ... and this is really not the forum for clarifying these issues of >>> Ethics, honestly. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >>> On 8/07/2016 11:36 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: >>> >>>> Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics as >>>> normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human activity in >>>> terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists argue that practical >>>> reason is inherently normative). Others might see it more in terms of >>>> "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're discussing how ethics is to >>>> even be conceptualized and approached (e.g. questioning dichotomies of >>>> "good" and "evil", whether a priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues >>>> as >>>> opposed to criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into >>>> meta-ethics. For what that's worth. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Andy, >>>>> >>>>> So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" >>>>> (????). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits are >>>>> hard >>>>> to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not bad ones. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" it >>>>> seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human morality in >>>>> the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not good and not >> right >>>>> so >>>>> one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits are >>>>> worth >>>>> having). I consider that to be a consideration of values a priori. In >>>>> terms >>>>> of what is ideal or hypothetical. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, after the >>>>> fact. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" and >>>>> prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. >>>>> This >>>>> avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something being >> more >>>>> right, or having more goodness than something else. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification for >>>>> economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is usually not >>>>> done >>>>> scientifically, though it is very mathematical in nature. To measure >>>>> utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, and that's why I used >> the >>>>> metaphor hall of mirrors. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, but not >>>>> in >>>>> another. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal application, and >>>>> so >>>>> it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective value, but a reflected >> one, >>>>> if >>>>> I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective while a >>>>> reflected one is a universal, objective value. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know anyone who >>>>> doesn't value happiness. However what makes people happy is a >> projected, >>>>> subjective value. That's where utility comes in. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For what that is worth. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jul 8 06:41:02 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 06:41:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> , Message-ID: <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> Falling within the realm of subjectivity and also the realm of (identity). So... Ethos, pathos, and logos as (ways) of generating a sense of identity. Are these Aristotelian notions: expressing quality (meaning *potential*) Or Expressing instances (existential) Or Expressing types (symbolic and shared) OF ethos, pathos, and logos That generate (identity) or sense of being/becoming a ... Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Ma, James (james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk) From glassman.13@osu.edu Fri Jul 8 07:00:10 2016 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 14:00:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <2690c440-65e8-4a81-8f8a-46d4ef141179@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <2690c440-65e8-4a81-8f8a-46d4ef141179@mira.net> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1D55F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> The BBC seems somewhat an ironic source for ethics - especially with everything that is happening in Britain right now what withthe Chitcotte report (sp?) and the Brexit, where BBC played no small part. But I thought habit was actually the nub of the current debate on ethics - especially virtues ethicists vs. the communitarians. Didn't McIntyre argue in AFTER VIRTUE that virtue ethicists had destroyed the role of ethics by focusing on it as a deontological enterprise (that damn Kant again). That perhaps we were better off taking our ethics from habit because it gave us a social base. Something we could follow with true cause, something to trust in rather than something to aspire to - a branch of what Annalisa refers to as normative ethics. I guess McIntyre does not consider himself a communitarian but he makes an argument. We are going through an intense crisis in ethics here is the United States that just got raised four or five notches last night. I fear the role that proclamations of virtue will play in the days of head, yet I can't think of any other road out of this dark time. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 8:19 AM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help Perhaps xmca could take a break from discussing Ethics while everyone studies http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/introduction/ Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 8/07/2016 10:03 PM, Jonathan Tudge wrote: > I think that virtue ethicists influenced by Aristotle would be > cautious about linking virtues and habits. A habit may be simply > rule-governed. For example, I follow the rule to always say "thank > you" when given a gift and always give, in return, a gift of equal > value, but I do so without understanding why I should express thanks. > I can hardly be said to have the virtue of gratitude. That's why > neo-Aristotelians invoke the concept of phronesis, or practical > wisdom. I have to understand the meaning of expressing thanks and > engaging in grateful behaviour, as well as doing it on a regular basis (when appropriate), and that comes with experience. > > In case anyone's interested, fuller thoughts on this issue appear in > Tudge, Freitas, & O'Brien (2015). The virtue of gratitude: A > developmental and cultural approach. * Human Development, 58*, 281-300. > > Cheers, > > Jon > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Jonathan Tudge > > Professor > Office: 155 Stone > > http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/ > > Mailing address: > 248 Stone Building > Department of Human Development and Family Studies PO Box 26170 The > University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27402-6170 > USA > > phone (336) 223-6181 > fax (336) 334-5076 > > http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html > > > On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > >> Anyone have suggestions of writings on ethics from a CHAT perspective? >> >> Also, I was quite taken by Annalisa's linking ethics to "habit" >> precisely because this is the way that I would like to construe >> ethics - embodied habits/dispositions (person X habitually responds >> to a particular type of situation with behavior Y). To say anything >> more requires invoking one ethical framework or another (and even my >> definition does this since the construal of "a particular type of >> situation" as such necessarily already invokes cultural >> meaningfulnesses that are also likely to entail ethical frameworks). >> >> -greg >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> ... and this is really not the forum for clarifying these issues of >>> Ethics, honestly. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Andy Blunden >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-makin >>> g On 8/07/2016 11:36 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: >>> >>>> Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics >>>> as normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human >>>> activity in terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists >>>> argue that practical reason is inherently normative). Others might >>>> see it more in terms of "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're >>>> discussing how ethics is to even be conceptualized and approached >>>> (e.g. questioning dichotomies of "good" and "evil", whether a >>>> priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues as opposed to >>>> criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into meta-ethics. >>>> For what that's worth. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Andy, >>>>> >>>>> So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" >>>>> (????). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits >>>>> are hard to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not >>>>> bad ones. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" >>>>> it seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human >>>>> morality in the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not >>>>> good and not >> right >>>>> so >>>>> one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits >>>>> are worth having). I consider that to be a consideration of values >>>>> a priori. In terms of what is ideal or hypothetical. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, >>>>> after the fact. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" >>>>> and prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. >>>>> This >>>>> avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something >>>>> being >> more >>>>> right, or having more goodness than something else. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification >>>>> for economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is >>>>> usually not done scientifically, though it is very mathematical in >>>>> nature. To measure utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, >>>>> and that's why I used >> the >>>>> metaphor hall of mirrors. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, >>>>> but not in another. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal >>>>> application, and so it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective >>>>> value, but a reflected >> one, >>>>> if >>>>> I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective >>>>> while a reflected one is a universal, objective value. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know >>>>> anyone who doesn't value happiness. However what makes people >>>>> happy is a >> projected, >>>>> subjective value. That's where utility comes in. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For what that is worth. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Annalisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Jul 8 07:02:26 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 00:02:26 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1D55F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <2690c440-65e8-4a81-8f8a-46d4ef141179@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1D55F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <0d61fe82-7cbb-c42e-884d-4a6ceb1efeb2@mira.net> I think I would go to the BBC for reliable information a long time before I resorted to ANY American source, Michael. Just take 10 minutes to read. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 9/07/2016 12:00 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > The BBC seems somewhat an ironic source for ethics - especially with everything that is happening in Britain right now what withthe Chitcotte report (sp?) and the Brexit, where BBC played no small part. > > But I thought habit was actually the nub of the current debate on ethics - especially virtues ethicists vs. the communitarians. Didn't McIntyre argue in AFTER VIRTUE that virtue ethicists had destroyed the role of ethics by focusing on it as a deontological enterprise (that damn Kant again). That perhaps we were better off taking our ethics from habit because it gave us a social base. Something we could follow with true cause, something to trust in rather than something to aspire to - a branch of what Annalisa refers to as normative ethics. I guess McIntyre does not consider himself a communitarian but he makes an argument. > > We are going through an intense crisis in ethics here is the United States that just got raised four or five notches last night. I fear the role that proclamations of virtue will play in the days of head, yet I can't think of any other road out of this dark time. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 8:19 AM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help > > Perhaps xmca could take a break from discussing Ethics while everyone studies > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/introduction/ > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 8/07/2016 10:03 PM, Jonathan Tudge wrote: >> I think that virtue ethicists influenced by Aristotle would be >> cautious about linking virtues and habits. A habit may be simply >> rule-governed. For example, I follow the rule to always say "thank >> you" when given a gift and always give, in return, a gift of equal >> value, but I do so without understanding why I should express thanks. >> I can hardly be said to have the virtue of gratitude. That's why >> neo-Aristotelians invoke the concept of phronesis, or practical >> wisdom. I have to understand the meaning of expressing thanks and >> engaging in grateful behaviour, as well as doing it on a regular basis (when appropriate), and that comes with experience. >> >> In case anyone's interested, fuller thoughts on this issue appear in >> Tudge, Freitas, & O'Brien (2015). The virtue of gratitude: A >> developmental and cultural approach. * Human Development, 58*, 281-300. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jon >> >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> Jonathan Tudge >> >> Professor >> Office: 155 Stone >> >> http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/ >> >> Mailing address: >> 248 Stone Building >> Department of Human Development and Family Studies PO Box 26170 The >> University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27402-6170 >> USA >> >> phone (336) 223-6181 >> fax (336) 334-5076 >> >> http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Greg Thompson >> >> wrote: >> >>> Anyone have suggestions of writings on ethics from a CHAT perspective? >>> >>> Also, I was quite taken by Annalisa's linking ethics to "habit" >>> precisely because this is the way that I would like to construe >>> ethics - embodied habits/dispositions (person X habitually responds >>> to a particular type of situation with behavior Y). To say anything >>> more requires invoking one ethical framework or another (and even my >>> definition does this since the construal of "a particular type of >>> situation" as such necessarily already invokes cultural >>> meaningfulnesses that are also likely to entail ethical frameworks). >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> ... and this is really not the forum for clarifying these issues of >>>> Ethics, honestly. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-makin >>>> g On 8/07/2016 11:36 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: >>>> >>>>> Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics >>>>> as normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human >>>>> activity in terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists >>>>> argue that practical reason is inherently normative). Others might >>>>> see it more in terms of "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're >>>>> discussing how ethics is to even be conceptualized and approached >>>>> (e.g. questioning dichotomies of "good" and "evil", whether a >>>>> priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues as opposed to >>>>> criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into meta-ethics. >>>>> For what that's worth. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>> So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" >>>>>> (????). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits >>>>>> are hard to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not >>>>>> bad ones. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" >>>>>> it seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human >>>>>> morality in the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not >>>>>> good and not >>> right >>>>>> so >>>>>> one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits >>>>>> are worth having). I consider that to be a consideration of values >>>>>> a priori. In terms of what is ideal or hypothetical. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, >>>>>> after the fact. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" >>>>>> and prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. >>>>>> This >>>>>> avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something >>>>>> being >>> more >>>>>> right, or having more goodness than something else. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification >>>>>> for economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is >>>>>> usually not done scientifically, though it is very mathematical in >>>>>> nature. To measure utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, >>>>>> and that's why I used >>> the >>>>>> metaphor hall of mirrors. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, >>>>>> but not in another. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal >>>>>> application, and so it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective >>>>>> value, but a reflected >>> one, >>>>>> if >>>>>> I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective >>>>>> while a reflected one is a universal, objective value. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know >>>>>> anyone who doesn't value happiness. However what makes people >>>>>> happy is a >>> projected, >>>>>> subjective value. That's where utility comes in. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> For what that is worth. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> From glassman.13@osu.edu Fri Jul 8 07:19:39 2016 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 14:19:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <0d61fe82-7cbb-c42e-884d-4a6ceb1efeb2@mira.net> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <2690c440-65e8-4a81-8f8a-46d4ef141179@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1D55F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu>, <0d61fe82-7cbb-c42e-884d-4a6ceb1efeb2@mira.net> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1D581@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Andy, Perhaps any other moment I might have let this go. But the BBC piece is superficial and not an enormous amount of help in current discussions I think. I am well aware of the flaws in our establishment media in the U.S. which is a mirror of establishment media in Britain, often times worse. But I really suggest you try and gain an understanding in the distributed and diffuse media outlets that have arisen and taken hold in the United States. There is some very interesting and thoughtful stuff on outlets such as Mother Jones, Balloon Juice, the Nation to name just a few. I read a piece on Talking Points Memo tonight which is one of the best short pieces in a time of crisis I have read in a while. Try and understand something before casting general aspersions. This is not some type of cultural tug of war - especially as my culture seems to be bleeding at the moment. Take care, Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 10:02 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help I think I would go to the BBC for reliable information a long time before I resorted to ANY American source, Michael. Just take 10 minutes to read. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 9/07/2016 12:00 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > The BBC seems somewhat an ironic source for ethics - especially with everything that is happening in Britain right now what withthe Chitcotte report (sp?) and the Brexit, where BBC played no small part. > > But I thought habit was actually the nub of the current debate on ethics - especially virtues ethicists vs. the communitarians. Didn't McIntyre argue in AFTER VIRTUE that virtue ethicists had destroyed the role of ethics by focusing on it as a deontological enterprise (that damn Kant again). That perhaps we were better off taking our ethics from habit because it gave us a social base. Something we could follow with true cause, something to trust in rather than something to aspire to - a branch of what Annalisa refers to as normative ethics. I guess McIntyre does not consider himself a communitarian but he makes an argument. > > We are going through an intense crisis in ethics here is the United States that just got raised four or five notches last night. I fear the role that proclamations of virtue will play in the days of head, yet I can't think of any other road out of this dark time. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 8:19 AM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help > > Perhaps xmca could take a break from discussing Ethics while everyone studies > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/introduction/ > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 8/07/2016 10:03 PM, Jonathan Tudge wrote: >> I think that virtue ethicists influenced by Aristotle would be >> cautious about linking virtues and habits. A habit may be simply >> rule-governed. For example, I follow the rule to always say "thank >> you" when given a gift and always give, in return, a gift of equal >> value, but I do so without understanding why I should express thanks. >> I can hardly be said to have the virtue of gratitude. That's why >> neo-Aristotelians invoke the concept of phronesis, or practical >> wisdom. I have to understand the meaning of expressing thanks and >> engaging in grateful behaviour, as well as doing it on a regular basis (when appropriate), and that comes with experience. >> >> In case anyone's interested, fuller thoughts on this issue appear in >> Tudge, Freitas, & O'Brien (2015). The virtue of gratitude: A >> developmental and cultural approach. * Human Development, 58*, 281-300. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jon >> >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> Jonathan Tudge >> >> Professor >> Office: 155 Stone >> >> http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/ >> >> Mailing address: >> 248 Stone Building >> Department of Human Development and Family Studies PO Box 26170 The >> University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27402-6170 >> USA >> >> phone (336) 223-6181 >> fax (336) 334-5076 >> >> http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Greg Thompson >> >> wrote: >> >>> Anyone have suggestions of writings on ethics from a CHAT perspective? >>> >>> Also, I was quite taken by Annalisa's linking ethics to "habit" >>> precisely because this is the way that I would like to construe >>> ethics - embodied habits/dispositions (person X habitually responds >>> to a particular type of situation with behavior Y). To say anything >>> more requires invoking one ethical framework or another (and even my >>> definition does this since the construal of "a particular type of >>> situation" as such necessarily already invokes cultural >>> meaningfulnesses that are also likely to entail ethical frameworks). >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> ... and this is really not the forum for clarifying these issues of >>>> Ethics, honestly. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Andy Blunden >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-makin >>>> g On 8/07/2016 11:36 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: >>>> >>>>> Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics >>>>> as normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human >>>>> activity in terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists >>>>> argue that practical reason is inherently normative). Others might >>>>> see it more in terms of "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're >>>>> discussing how ethics is to even be conceptualized and approached >>>>> (e.g. questioning dichotomies of "good" and "evil", whether a >>>>> priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues as opposed to >>>>> criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into meta-ethics. >>>>> For what that's worth. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>> So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" >>>>>> (????). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits >>>>>> are hard to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not >>>>>> bad ones. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" >>>>>> it seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human >>>>>> morality in the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not >>>>>> good and not >>> right >>>>>> so >>>>>> one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits >>>>>> are worth having). I consider that to be a consideration of values >>>>>> a priori. In terms of what is ideal or hypothetical. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, >>>>>> after the fact. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" >>>>>> and prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. >>>>>> This >>>>>> avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something >>>>>> being >>> more >>>>>> right, or having more goodness than something else. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification >>>>>> for economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is >>>>>> usually not done scientifically, though it is very mathematical in >>>>>> nature. To measure utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, >>>>>> and that's why I used >>> the >>>>>> metaphor hall of mirrors. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, >>>>>> but not in another. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal >>>>>> application, and so it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective >>>>>> value, but a reflected >>> one, >>>>>> if >>>>>> I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective >>>>>> while a reflected one is a universal, objective value. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know >>>>>> anyone who doesn't value happiness. However what makes people >>>>>> happy is a >>> projected, >>>>>> subjective value. That's where utility comes in. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> For what that is worth. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> From ablunden@mira.net Fri Jul 8 07:22:39 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 00:22:39 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1D581@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <2690c440-65e8-4a81-8f8a-46d4ef141179@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1D55F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <0d61fe82-7cbb-c42e-884d-4a6ceb1efeb2@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1D581@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <2ccf3c8f-bafd-e5a7-8fa6-046b528c7277@mira.net> Well, perhaps you should suggest an introduction to ethics, Michael? I will bow out for the moment. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 9/07/2016 12:19 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Andy, > > Perhaps any other moment I might have let this go. But the BBC piece is superficial and not an enormous amount of help in current discussions I think. > > I am well aware of the flaws in our establishment media in the U.S. which is a mirror of establishment media in Britain, often times worse. But I really suggest you try and gain an understanding in the distributed and diffuse media outlets that have arisen and taken hold in the United States. There is some very interesting and thoughtful stuff on outlets such as Mother Jones, Balloon Juice, the Nation to name just a few. I read a piece on Talking Points Memo tonight which is one of the best short pieces in a time of crisis I have read in a while. Try and understand something before casting general aspersions. This is not some type of cultural tug of war - especially as my culture seems to be bleeding at the moment. > > Take care, > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 10:02 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help > > I think I would go to the BBC for reliable information a > long time before I resorted to ANY American source, Michael. > > Just take 10 minutes to read. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 9/07/2016 12:00 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: >> The BBC seems somewhat an ironic source for ethics - especially with everything that is happening in Britain right now what withthe Chitcotte report (sp?) and the Brexit, where BBC played no small part. >> >> But I thought habit was actually the nub of the current debate on ethics - especially virtues ethicists vs. the communitarians. Didn't McIntyre argue in AFTER VIRTUE that virtue ethicists had destroyed the role of ethics by focusing on it as a deontological enterprise (that damn Kant again). That perhaps we were better off taking our ethics from habit because it gave us a social base. Something we could follow with true cause, something to trust in rather than something to aspire to - a branch of what Annalisa refers to as normative ethics. I guess McIntyre does not consider himself a communitarian but he makes an argument. >> >> We are going through an intense crisis in ethics here is the United States that just got raised four or five notches last night. I fear the role that proclamations of virtue will play in the days of head, yet I can't think of any other road out of this dark time. >> >> Michael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 8:19 AM >> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help >> >> Perhaps xmca could take a break from discussing Ethics while everyone studies >> >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/introduction/ >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> On 8/07/2016 10:03 PM, Jonathan Tudge wrote: >>> I think that virtue ethicists influenced by Aristotle would be >>> cautious about linking virtues and habits. A habit may be simply >>> rule-governed. For example, I follow the rule to always say "thank >>> you" when given a gift and always give, in return, a gift of equal >>> value, but I do so without understanding why I should express thanks. >>> I can hardly be said to have the virtue of gratitude. That's why >>> neo-Aristotelians invoke the concept of phronesis, or practical >>> wisdom. I have to understand the meaning of expressing thanks and >>> engaging in grateful behaviour, as well as doing it on a regular basis (when appropriate), and that comes with experience. >>> >>> In case anyone's interested, fuller thoughts on this issue appear in >>> Tudge, Freitas, & O'Brien (2015). The virtue of gratitude: A >>> developmental and cultural approach. * Human Development, 58*, 281-300. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> Jonathan Tudge >>> >>> Professor >>> Office: 155 Stone >>> >>> http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/ >>> >>> Mailing address: >>> 248 Stone Building >>> Department of Human Development and Family Studies PO Box 26170 The >>> University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27402-6170 >>> USA >>> >>> phone (336) 223-6181 >>> fax (336) 334-5076 >>> >>> http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Greg Thompson >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone have suggestions of writings on ethics from a CHAT perspective? >>>> >>>> Also, I was quite taken by Annalisa's linking ethics to "habit" >>>> precisely because this is the way that I would like to construe >>>> ethics - embodied habits/dispositions (person X habitually responds >>>> to a particular type of situation with behavior Y). To say anything >>>> more requires invoking one ethical framework or another (and even my >>>> definition does this since the construal of "a particular type of >>>> situation" as such necessarily already invokes cultural >>>> meaningfulnesses that are also likely to entail ethical frameworks). >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>>> ... and this is really not the forum for clarifying these issues of >>>>> Ethics, honestly. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy >>>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-makin >>>>> g On 8/07/2016 11:36 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics >>>>>> as normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human >>>>>> activity in terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists >>>>>> argue that practical reason is inherently normative). Others might >>>>>> see it more in terms of "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're >>>>>> discussing how ethics is to even be conceptualized and approached >>>>>> (e.g. questioning dichotomies of "good" and "evil", whether a >>>>>> priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues as opposed to >>>>>> criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into meta-ethics. >>>>>> For what that's worth. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>>> So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit" >>>>>>> (????). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits >>>>>>> are hard to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not >>>>>>> bad ones. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms" >>>>>>> it seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human >>>>>>> morality in the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not >>>>>>> good and not >>>> right >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits >>>>>>> are worth having). I consider that to be a consideration of values >>>>>>> a priori. In terms of what is ideal or hypothetical. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori, >>>>>>> after the fact. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong" >>>>>>> and prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right. >>>>>>> This >>>>>>> avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something >>>>>>> being >>>> more >>>>>>> right, or having more goodness than something else. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification >>>>>>> for economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is >>>>>>> usually not done scientifically, though it is very mathematical in >>>>>>> nature. To measure utility requires all kinds of strange formulae, >>>>>>> and that's why I used >>>> the >>>>>>> metaphor hall of mirrors. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society, >>>>>>> but not in another. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal >>>>>>> application, and so it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective >>>>>>> value, but a reflected >>>> one, >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective >>>>>>> while a reflected one is a universal, objective value. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know >>>>>>> anyone who doesn't value happiness. However what makes people >>>>>>> happy is a >>>> projected, >>>>>>> subjective value. That's where utility comes in. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For what that is worth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Annalisa >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 8 10:24:52 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 17:24:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1D581@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <2690c440-65e8-4a81-8f8a-46d4ef141179@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1D55F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu>, <0d61fe82-7cbb-c42e-884d-4a6ceb1efeb2@mira.net>, <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1D581@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Hello, Thanks for everyone participating, even you lurkers out there. [?] I believe that we can collaborate on this topic and be grown-ups about it, as we have been so far. One of the "duck-rabbit" aspects of this discussion, is how easy it is to argue whether there is a duck or a rabbit there. (I use the drawing of the duck-rabbit here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit%E2%80%93duck_illusion but I did find something quite amusing by an artist named Paul St. George which may bring some lightness to this conversation. See: http://www.paulstgeorge.com/rabbitduck/ ) In my own investigations on the topic of ethics, I have come to the conclusion that the point of reflecting upon ethics is to understand how to be responsible for my own actions (rather than dictating how others should act). I don't offer that as a definition, but just how I make sense of it for myself. In other words, it isn't trying to come up with a set of commandments or rules, from God, or any other corner of the material universe. The "trap" inherent in the discussion of ethics, is the idea that there is a final answer, a pill to take. That's why I invoke the duck-rabbit. It seems like there is something there, and that something is X to one person and Y to another. And yet if one vacillates between perspectives, one can see how both X and Y are available and possible answers. That's why it's almost always about coming up with what one would do for oneself. It's about learning how to make reasonable judgements and how to act accordingly. I am not taking sides on anything here, but one could empathize with the Dallas shooters, not to condone their actions. Perhaps they felt compelled to act for ethical reasons, that they felt a need to sacrifice themselves because of the situation being intolerable, given how long and how many needless police killings of innocent African Americans have transpired in the past few years, and how few police-abuse cases have been tried justly. It was an act of desperation. Of course, it is also possible this is only an appearance of a trend, that there have actually been *more* of these cases than we actually know about, but like many social ills that get sunlight, such as domestic abuse, rape, wealth-hiding, corruption, etc., we are just starting to gain awareness about the wide berth of this kind of social injustice. The point I believe about ethics is that it is a recursive act of inquiry. It is the act of discussing and being thoughtful and careful about the handling a given situation and seeking the answer to any controversy in that present moment as the situation presents itself to us. But it is always left open-ended. It means that in situation X it may be perfectly appropriate for person Y to do act Z, but change the variables of the situation and the person and act Z may be totally inappropriate, or it could be never appropriate no matter what the variables. I think this way of considering the Dallas shootings is the only way we can start to make sense of what happened, to appeal to Michael's sensitivity and search for understanding. I'm not sure if I have made my point clear, or not. I think the problem is that we don't talk about ethics enough, so that it isn't really in anyone's minds anymore. Just my opinion there. We are too afraid to discuss difficult topics and so we have entirely forget how to discuss difficult topics without descending into conflagrations, but it's better really to do the hard work of discussing and thinking with kindness and respect for the other. When we throw up fences, it is a retreat, and, vitally, a lost opportunity. When we can examine a topic in collaboration, even if there is disagreement, inevitably something good happens, because that good is better understanding. So I'd say that there can be no final generalizations about ethics (though I hope I'm not trying to make one by saying that!), there can only be examinations and investigations, which can only occur through discussion, and then understanding that each person is free to act as that one sees fit. This is why education is so important. We must facilitate critical thinking in ourselves to be good citizens. It seems a good goal to have. One that I'd say is timeless and never fails to be a higher good, to be a good citizen. Unfortunately, we do not remember this higher good until we have chaos in the streets, and then we are forced to learn from experience why being a good citizen is a higher good. In a sense, the best way to prevent unethical behavior is to have discussions about ethical behavior, because if, say, I am practicing unethical behavior, it becomes impossible for me to continue once I am forced to reflect upon that behavior through discussion with my peers. So we should welcome discussions on ethics, in my humble opinion. Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OutlookEmoji-?.png Type: image/png Size: 488 bytes Desc: =?utf-8?B?T3V0bG9va0Vtb2ppLfCfmIoucG5n?= Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160708/bf8bd414/attachment.png From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 8 15:40:07 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:40:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> , , <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hello! Sorry for this long post! It's two rolled into one. Well, maybe three? or 3.14? Here's a nice discovery to add to the discussion on "ethos." Someone from our happy list emailed me off-list to comment for fear of "facing hoots of derision" and sent this New Yorker link which I thought pertains to this thread better than the "Appeal for help" thread. So I'm positing the link here, from a very recent issue, like from yesterday!: http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/a-better-kind-of-happiness That means, I can be the one to face the hoots of derision rather than the one who sent the link to me. However I'm going to be optimistic: Let's hope there are no hoots to worry about and we can just have a nice CHAT about things like ...? If any lurkers would like the same accommodation, I'd be willing to offer the same shelter! Your anonymity will be left intact. Also... I'm glad to know that "ethos" isn't exactly the word for "habit," but it does seem a nuanced way to consider ethics, and how to decipher what is ethical, based upon habits. So thanks Rob for awaking your classist within. I would, like Greg and James, enjoy to hear a richer description of what "ethos" means. If Rob wouldn't mind doing that. It feels to me, as I think about it, that frequently, doing the unethical is not usually done with the intent of being unethical. It's done unconsciously and by increments. As if the unconscious mind is having a discussion with the conscious mind, "Well this is just a little fudge here, no one will mind if I do this one little teeny tiny bad thing. No one is looking and I don't think anyone even cares. So I'll just do it!" And then after a series of these little fudges one is left off the map, largely because of *habit*, and then it seems overnight one is far far away from the better-worn track of ethical habits, if that is not a redundant phrase. There does seem to be this connection between conscious choice and unconscious choice with regard to ethics. That it requires reflection and not mechanical habit. I had the idea analogously, to consider the way that 2?r (2[pi]r) is the circumference of a circle or [?r-squared or [pi]r x r]] is its area. It's become automatic that I know those are the formulae. But at some point in my math development I had to internalize that formula by figuring it out, though I can't recall off the top how I did that. I think by slicing pies or something! :) Actually I found this, which is nice, if anyone needs a refresher! https://teded.herokuapp.com/on/F3aawBcM I wonder if being ethical is a similar practice that we come to learn to say thank you without remembering why exactly why, but we just recall it's a good practice. Like being polite is a good practice, even if someone else is being rude. I also thought that the unethical is also done (incrementally) by remote extension, which seems to me the entire problem with neo-liberalism (capitalism) as we know it. It creates a distance and diffuses the connection between the cause of harm and the effect of harm. So even a well-meaning person can be participating in an unethical act, without meaning to. Say by purchasing electricity from a power company that is mistreating its employees. I hope I don't have to read swaths of Marx to make that statement, but forgive me if I do. :) I always felt Vygotsky to be an ethical person and he was sensitively concerned with doing the right thing. I sort of wish there was more to read about how he felt about thinkers like Aristotle. Does anyone know? Anyway, I find it is useful to discuss the overlaps of cultural-historical approaches and ethics, so thanks everyone! Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 8 15:44:47 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:44:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> , , <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Darn spell check! I meant to say classicist, Rob, Not classist! Sorry about that. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Fri Jul 8 16:40:58 2016 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2016 19:40:58 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help Message-ID: Annalisa, There is a generalization to be made about ethics, which you highlight clearly. ?It is the conclusion of Bertrand russell in his talk, "why I am not a christian." ?Russell concluded, "outside of human desires there are no moral standards!" Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Annalisa Aguilar Date: 7/8/2016 1:24 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help Hello, Thanks for everyone participating, even you lurkers out there. [?] I believe that we can collaborate on this topic and be grown-ups about it, as we have been so far. One of the "duck-rabbit" aspects of this discussion, is how easy it is to argue whether there is a duck or a rabbit there. (I use the drawing of the duck-rabbit here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit%E2%80%93duck_illusion but I did find something quite amusing by an artist named Paul St. George which may bring some lightness to this conversation. See: http://www.paulstgeorge.com/rabbitduck/ ) In my own investigations on the topic of ethics, I have come to the conclusion that the point of reflecting upon ethics is to understand how to be responsible for my own actions (rather than dictating how others should act). I don't offer that as a definition, but just how I make sense of it for myself. In other words, it isn't trying to come up with a set of commandments or rules, from God, or any other corner of the material universe.? The "trap" inherent in the discussion of ethics, is the idea that there is a final answer, a pill to take. That's why I invoke the duck-rabbit. It seems like there is something there, and that something is X to one person and Y to another. And yet if one vacillates between perspectives, one can see how both X and Y are available and possible answers. That's why it's almost always about coming up with what one would do for oneself. It's about learning how to make reasonable judgements and how to act accordingly. I am not taking sides on anything here, but one could empathize with the Dallas shooters, not to condone their actions. Perhaps they felt compelled to act for ethical reasons, that they felt a need to sacrifice themselves because of the situation being intolerable, given how long and how many needless police killings of innocent African Americans have transpired in the past few years, and how few police-abuse cases have been tried justly. It was an act of desperation. Of course, it is also possible this is only an appearance of a trend, that there have actually been *more* of these cases than we actually know about, but like many social ills that get sunlight, such as domestic abuse, rape, wealth-hiding, corruption, etc., we are just starting to gain awareness about the wide berth of this kind of social injustice. The point I believe about ethics is that it is a recursive act of inquiry. It is the act of discussing and being thoughtful and careful about the handling a given situation and seeking the answer to any controversy in that present moment as the situation presents itself to us. But it is always left open-ended. It means that in situation X it may be perfectly appropriate for person Y to do act Z, but change the variables of the situation and the person and act Z may be totally inappropriate, or it could be never appropriate no matter what the variables. I think this way of considering the Dallas shootings is the only way we can start to make sense of what happened, to appeal to Michael's sensitivity and search for understanding. I'm not sure if I have made my point clear, or not. I think the problem is that we don't talk about ethics enough, so that it isn't really in anyone's minds anymore. Just my opinion there. We are too afraid to discuss difficult topics and so we have entirely forget how to discuss difficult topics without descending into conflagrations, but it's better really to do the hard work of discussing and thinking with kindness and respect for the other. When we throw up fences, it is a retreat, and, vitally, a lost opportunity. When we can examine a topic in collaboration, even if there is disagreement, inevitably something good happens, because that good is better understanding. So I'd say that there can be no final generalizations about ethics (though I hope I'm not trying to make one by saying that!), there can only be examinations and investigations, which can only occur through discussion, and then understanding that each person is free to act as that one sees fit. This is why education is so important. We must facilitate critical thinking in ourselves to be good citizens. It seems a good goal to have. One that I'd say is timeless and never fails to be a higher good, to be a good citizen. Unfortunately, we do not remember this higher good until we have chaos in the streets, and then we are forced to learn from experience why being a good citizen is a higher good. In a sense, the best way to prevent unethical behavior is to have discussions about ethical behavior, because if, say, I am practicing unethical behavior, it becomes impossible for me to continue once I am forced to reflect upon that behavior through discussion with my peers. So we should welcome discussions on ethics, in my humble opinion. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 8 23:12:41 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 06:12:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Paul, I shall reply to this at the Ethos thread. Kind regards, Annalisa From: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 5:40 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help Annalisa, There is a generalization to be made about ethics, which you highlight clearly. It is the conclusion of Bertrand russell in his talk, "why I am not a christian." Russell concluded, "outside of human desires there are no moral standards!" From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 8 23:48:10 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 06:48:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> , , <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com>, Message-ID: Hello, In an apparently feeble attempt to keep the ethics discussion under this roof, I'm replying to Paul's post here (which is his reply to my last post [time stamp 7/8/2016 1:24pm] in the Appeal for Help thread). Paul makes the post (from his Samsung no less) stating: Annalisa, There is a generalization to be made about ethics, which you highlight clearly. It is the conclusion of Bertrand russell in his talk, "why I am not a christian." Russell concluded, "outside of human desires there are no moral standards!" To which I'll reply: That could be a generalization that you share with Russell, but what I was trying to point out, is that the POINT is NOT to make a decisive conclusion with an intent to create a standard, that conclusions can only pertain to a given situation at hand. This is a different emphasis than to say "there are no moral standards." It depends if you emphasize "moral" or "standards." (duck-rabbit) I'm saying that there can be moral conclusions to be made, but it is up to a free individual to discover what they are through lived experience (perezhivanie?). I am emphasizing the freedom here, for the individual to decide freely, and for that to happen, that lived experience must be considered outside of human desires, but not in the way I think Russell means when he used those words. In other words, how I mean it is that if we put human desires to the side, there can be a way to make a conclusion, just not a generalization. This conclusion, whatever it might be, is entirely dependent upon the situation at hand, and who is in the situation, and what the choices are. If it is the case that no moral standards are conclusive, that does NOT mean there are no morals to be discovered and adopted. It just means there are none that can be generalized (made into a standard) because there are too many variables, and all of that exists outside (beyond) of human desire. To say there is no duck there and no rabbit there - when there is something there that could be a duck or a rabbit - is not making a generalization. "There is no there there," is not a generalization, but it is a conclusion, it's a duck-rabbit (or it's Oakland, which is very specific), which is conclusive in its own right, or rather, it's conclusive enough (for the time being). Kind regards, Annalisa From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sat Jul 9 00:39:08 2016 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 07:39:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) Message-ID: I apologise if I am stating the obvious here but I think it is important to acknowledge the socio-cultural nature of ethical decision making. If our ethics are habits they are habits acquired in particular cultural communities. We could look at this from an individualist perspective and say that we come to know what is and is not OK in particular situations but it may make more sense to understand ethics in terms of knowledge about how other people are likely to be affected by our behaviour and our choices. If we spend most of our lives 'within the pale' of a tight-knit and bounded group (we have been hearing soon much here in England about the 'need' to protect our boundaries) then it is easy to see the behaviours of those who have grown up 'beyond the pale' as exotic, odd, barbaric or downright evil. We can feel comfortable with 'people like us' because we know and share (enough of) their habits. My own interest in the history of ways of thinking and feeling about childhood has shown me that some communities distrust or even fear children because they are 'savage', not yet 'civilised' by exposure to the habits of the 'civis'. People who do not (yet) know 'how we do things here' are disturbing BOTH because we don't know what they might do AND because we don't know how they may feel about what we do. An education which equips us to move outside our home territory, to make cautious, sensitive contact with people who have different habits, is an education in ethical practice beyond the simple 'soaking up' of the proper way of doing things. Just as children actively MAKE sense of what goes on around them (sometimes noticing the non-sense of things their parents have done forever out of habit) so we can learn to MAKE connection with strangers. It may seem naive and simplistic but on the Early Childhood Studies programme which I lead at Plymouth University (UK) we aim to help students to develop a 'core of care' which involves being CRITICAL (aware of how we know what we think we know) and ETHICAL (aware of how others may be affected by what we and others do). If ethos is habit then it is vital that education should equip us to question our own habits and encourage us to try to understand how other people's habits affect what they do. Leading 'a good life's in a cave or in a monastery may be hard but leading a good life out here in the world is a whole lot more difficult! All the best, Rod On 9 Jul 2016 7:49 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: Hello, In an apparently feeble attempt to keep the ethics discussion under this roof, I'm replying to Paul's post here (which is his reply to my last post [time stamp 7/8/2016 1:24pm] in the Appeal for Help thread). Paul makes the post (from his Samsung no less) stating: Annalisa, There is a generalization to be made about ethics, which you highlight clearly. It is the conclusion of Bertrand russell in his talk, "why I am not a christian." Russell concluded, "outside of human desires there are no moral standards!" To which I'll reply: That could be a generalization that you share with Russell, but what I was trying to point out, is that the POINT is NOT to make a decisive conclusion with an intent to create a standard, that conclusions can only pertain to a given situation at hand. This is a different emphasis than to say "there are no moral standards." It depends if you emphasize "moral" or "standards." (duck-rabbit) I'm saying that there can be moral conclusions to be made, but it is up to a free individual to discover what they are through lived experience (perezhivanie?). I am emphasizing the freedom here, for the individual to decide freely, and for that to happen, that lived experience must be considered outside of human desires, but not in the way I think Russell means when he used those words. In other words, how I mean it is that if we put human desires to the side, there can be a way to make a conclusion, just not a generalization. This conclusion, whatever it might be, is entirely dependent upon the situation at hand, and who is in the situation, and what the choices are. If it is the case that no moral standards are conclusive, that does NOT mean there are no morals to be discovered and adopted. It just means there are none that can be generalized (made into a standard) because there are too many variables, and all of that exists outside (beyond) of human desire. To say there is no duck there and no rabbit there - when there is something there that could be a duck or a rabbit - is not making a generalization. "There is no there there," is not a generalization, but it is a conclusion, it's a duck-rabbit (or it's Oakland, which is very specific), which is conclusive in its own right, or rather, it's conclusive enough (for the time being). Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sat Jul 9 04:00:54 2016 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 07:00:54 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) Message-ID: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> Annalisa, You go from kantian deontological ethics, I'm saying that there can be moral conclusions to be made, but it is up to a free individual to discover what they are through lived experience (perezhivanie?). To an epistemological postmodernism/poststructuralism, which contradicts the aforementioned statement, If it is the case that no moral standards are conclusive, that does NOT mean there are no morals to be discovered and adopted. It just means there are none that can be generalized (made into a standard) because there are too many variables, and all of that exists outside (beyond) of human desire. To say there is no duck there and no rabbit there - when there is something there that could be a duck or a rabbit - is not making a generalization. "There is no there there," is not a generalization, but it is a conclusion, it's a duck-rabbit (or it's Oakland, which is very specific), which is conclusive in its own right, or rather, it's conclusive enough (for the time being). In the end you are saying the same thing as the Bertrand russell, the logical positivist. Whether there is a rabbit or a duck, it is the human being who determines what there is that is there, bracketing your desires does not turn you into another species who can ascertain the noumenal world! MORALITY IS A PRODUCT OF POWER AND POWER RELATIONS AND CAN NOT BE OTHERWISE! Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Annalisa Aguilar Date: 7/9/2016 2:48 AM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) Hello, In an apparently feeble attempt to keep the ethics discussion under this roof, I'm replying to Paul's post here (which is his reply to my last post [time stamp 7/8/2016 1:24pm] in the Appeal for Help thread). Paul makes the post (from his Samsung no less) stating: Annalisa, There is a generalization to be made about ethics, which you highlight clearly.? It is the conclusion of Bertrand russell in his talk, "why I am not a christian."? Russell concluded, "outside of human desires there are no moral standards!" To which I'll reply: That could be a generalization that you share with Russell, but what I was trying to point out, is that the POINT is NOT to make a decisive conclusion with an intent to create a standard, that conclusions can only pertain to a given situation at hand. This is a different emphasis than to say "there are no moral standards." It depends if you emphasize "moral" or "standards." (duck-rabbit) I am emphasizing the freedom here, for the individual to decide freely, and for that to happen, that lived experience must be considered outside of human desires, but not in the way I think Russell means when he used those words. In other words, how I mean it is that if we put human desires to the side, there can be a way to make a conclusion, just not a generalization. This conclusion, whatever it might be, is entirely dependent upon the situation at hand, and who is in the situation, and what the choices are. Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jul 9 06:58:57 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 06:58:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57810353.8533620a.945cd.7184@mx.google.com> Rod, Your focus of your project is aiming to develop the *core of care* as a good. In Charles Taylor?s term a (hypergood) that supercedes other dispositions. In order for persons to develop this hypergood requires developing Being/becoming CRITICAL (aware of how we know what we think we know) Being/becoming ETHICAL (aware of how others may be affected by what we and others do. So... We have a project with 3 dispositional concepts that can be guideposts or *markers* for *developing* persons with personality. These 3 markers can be *evaluative* markers to *indicate persons who are exemplarly in being exemplars of these evaluative markers (dispositional values). Now my question is if persons who aquire the *core of care* AS a cultural-historical hypergood then form enduring dispositions that become *internalized* and their CRITICAL and ETHICAL orientations carry over or across (travelling metaphor) multiple situations and contexts EXPRESSING this *particular* disposition we label *core of care*. Charles Taylor would say this hypergood is the *source* (the ground) of the *sense of self*. Hypergoods are not felt to be relative goods but rather for Taylor are determinative of our developing dispositions (in contrast to positions) The concept *core of care* becomes more determinative and less relative as our *living truth*. This is true BOTH for the community OF care and the *self* (person?s exemplary identity) that orients the person who enters situations. It becomes the person?s and communities character *type* ( expressing these *potential* dispositions WITHIN particual existential instances). This core of care *type* (person and community) is neither relative nor absolute. It is a historically developing *type* but as a *particular* hypergood does implicate power (or empowering) relations and is contrasted with persons who express other hypergoods . Rod, the question I have is that I share with you this commitment to develop the *core of care* as an educational type project. How do we persuade others of this *message* (in the sense of a message) that engenders deep commitment to this *virtue*. I believe Marx, Vygotsky, were bringing messages (Hermes is the God who *carries messages* and *travels*). Rod, I read your post as a message which travels far beyond epistemology to seeing scholarship as ontological (types of being/becoming). Virtues/values historically form as answers to problems. This ethic of care (your project) is a *calling* (in the form of a message) which you and others are *answering* I believe it is the answer for our particular existential moment. It is not relative. We must *choose* and I Believe this *core of care* is the best alternative to develop through *critical and ethical meaning *potential* which we actualize in our living. Now the notion of (power) or (will to power) is implicated in Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Rod Parker-Rees From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jul 9 12:28:05 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 19:28:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> References: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> Message-ID: No Paul, You just misunderstood me, because we are dealing with a duck-rabbit. I'll try again. Sorry for the length, but I feel I have to slow down to explain it, and make some repetitions. For me, and I say for me (not everyone will agree and that is fine) how I see it, there is an order here in the world. Some others like to say there is no order and everything is arbitrary, and some others say something else along that continuum between order and chaos. But I prefer to say there is an order here that follows laws that we may or may not understand. Something like gravity. Gravity is outside human desire. No matter what I desire to do or not, gravity will do as it will do. No matter how much pollution that humans make on this planet the planet will do as it will do. The moon will do as it will do, the universe will do as it will do, pretty much unaffected. There is something of an order larger than us, and it will function accordingly, which is only partially visible (knowable) to us. Since we are inside this order, we are not only part of it, but are subject to it. We cannot exist outside of it. If I jump off a cliff, I am subject to the laws of gravity, no matter who is President of the United States, no matter my gender, or social standing. I do not have to change my species to figure this out. Because we live in an infinite universe, there can be no conclusions made that can be said to be final. If we did, inevitably something within the universe would change, and it would negate our conclusion, since that conclusion was derived from a now non-apparent universe. That is why we have brains and minds, and we use them to understand the changing and forever novel world. Otherwise, if this were not the case, we could just go on autopilot and enjoy the world, much like animals do, or more mechanically, like the hand that travels over the face of a clock while time passes. So we must always try to evaluate our environment and our place in it, without making any ultimate conclusions, and yet we must create ad hoc standards so that we can remain together in harmony for the time being. Until we become borg-like or hive-like, (if that should happen, but I'd prefer not), we have to create standard to live by, so we can get along, not just between ourselves, but with this larger order greater than ourselves. In the same way we come to understand gravity (experientially, as well as scientifically with math formulas and all that), we come to understand this underlying (moral) order, but it is not ever going to be conclusive, because it exists outside of us, beyond us, and yet it permeates us and our society. Yet we try to make our conclusions, relative to ourselves, so we might survive another day, and enjoy an ice cream cone with a friend. But no matter who gets to enjoy the ice cream, we must balance it on the cone, otherwise it will fall off, even if I am President of the United States. Perhaps I am not being precise in my thinking, that is why I am posting so that I can try to be more precise about this, to explain how I see it. There are going to be new moral standards to discover that are outside of us, again because we live in an infinite universe that is constantly changing. Consider the new moral standards that are being discovered through the use of cell phones. They (phones and their consequent moral standards) did not exist before. No one could make a final conclusion about how to use a technology that did not exist in 1920. But the material order is no different today than it was then, it's just that a new technology configured the material of the universe in a particularly new configuration that now extends to an apparently new order. But really, the order hasn't changed, because that original order is what determines how a technology manifests in the world, just to us it seems like something new, because we don't have a standard to go by. The laws of that order are outside of us and it is likely we don't understand them, until we are forced to deal with the order, because it has pushed itself into our awareness. So if there is a connection to cell phones and bee colony collapse, then in response the existing moral standard has to change, if we want to remain in harmony with the larger order, an order that we evolved into, through, and because of that order. If that order changes the environment too much from that basis of our own evolution, we will not survive. Period. If we value ourselves enough we will create standards to follow, so we can survive. Consider climate change as an aspect of that larger order. A hurricane created from rising ocean temperatures as-if creates in us its own moral standard in that it abides within the universe at a given point in time and space. A moral is not arbitrary. Neither is a standard. It arises from change and an awareness of that change. They both are always being evaluated, tested, decided upon. When a moral does not work as a standard (for everyone), or a standard is no longer moral (creates harm), the moral standard is discarded and a new one must be determined. For me, a moral standard is something we adopt in a moment of time, it is never conclusive. How can it be? Like a surfer rides the force of water, balanced atop a surf board, atop the wave. This order always is evaluated and reconsidered, and even rediscovered by us. That is why our morality (in us and in the environment) changes over time. I think so. The appearance is that those in power force an order upon others, but that force exists in a larger order that will respond accordingly, like the hurricane, like the bee colony collapse, like the sentiments behind the perpetrators of the Dallas shootings. It is amazing to me that police officers, judges, and legislators believe that they can contribute to this kind of persecution of innocents without something blowing back. It's not something I want to see, in terms of the violence and harm, but it is very well within the larger order that it is manifesting. Something in all of us accepts the reasons behind the push back. At the same time, something in all of us wants to see the harmony respected, which will make us act. That is the larger order at work in all of us. To be moral is to be in harmony, how to be in harmony is up to you, because that is an expression of your freedom. Morality in the total picture is NOT a product of power and power relations, unless you mean a power beyond ourselves, and our relationship to that power. Morality is the order, but I don't mean humanly derived order or human derived morality. I'm not talking about God, just forces of the world that we find ourselves. If we live in complete harmony with the total, with all that exists outside us, including all that is beyond our human desire, then it can be quite easy to live in harmony with each other. When we don't, then the larger order sets it straight, maybe not right away, but eventually. So I had a nice chuckle at what Bertrand Russell said, because he's right, though I'm not sure he understood why. So yes, I do agree with Russell, but I don't think he would agree with me. I could be wrong, but I'd say that's because he wanted to live inside a world made of human desire with no moral and no standard. That is impossible to do. Thanks for reading my post and letting me share my thoughts. And thanks Paul, for sharing yours. Kind regards, Annalisa From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Jul 10 10:39:05 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:39:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Request: Chandler article In-Reply-To: References: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> Message-ID: <2EF0E1D2-E90D-4490-82FB-B30DA5341D3E@uniandes.edu.co> Does anyone have a pdf of this article by Michael Chandler? Martin Chandler, M. J. (1975). Relativism and the problem of epistemological loneliness. Human Development, 18(3), 171-180. A commentary on the sense of isolation and estrangement which commonly accompanies the relativism ushered in by the emergence of formal operational thought, and a detailing of several regressive strategies frequently employed by adolescents in their efforts to accommodate to this plurality of solitudes. It is suggested that the stereotypy, cliquishness and press toward conformity common among adolescents, as well as the penchant for abstraction and the susceptability to secular and nonsecular conversions often characteristic of this age group, can be understood as attempts to cope with the estrangement of social relativism through the imposition of a kind of artificial consensus. Such essentially regressive solutions are viewed as a by-product of a standard of cognitive development which regards maturity as a kind of exclusive trafficking in abstract relativistic thought. This view is contrasted with an alternative construction of cognitive development which rejects the notion that concretism is an intellectual handicap of middle childhood, that centered or figurative thinking is a conceptual stage to be overcome, and that thoughts freed of all contracdiction are the mark of conceptual maturity. This second and dialectical view of development is proposed as a perspective which permits a brand of cognitive growth that does not sacrifice the particular to the general nor condemn the adolescent to the vertigo of relativism. From fran_oise2001@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 11:17:38 2016 From: fran_oise2001@yahoo.com (Fran_oise2001) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 18:17:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request: Chandler article In-Reply-To: <2EF0E1D2-E90D-4490-82FB-B30DA5341D3E@uniandes.edu.co> References: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> <2EF0E1D2-E90D-4490-82FB-B30DA5341D3E@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <1537328608.1590416.1468174658949.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Martin, Voila! Courtesy of NYU Bobcat! Thanks for this ref. to Journal and article.? NYU faculty profile: http://www.scps.nyu.edu/faculty/faculty-profile.html?id=14461?Web pages : www.fhphd.org?Blog: http://patentsonthesolesofyourshoes.blogspot.com/Blog: ?http://fichestechniquestradmed.blogspot.com/? Skype: fhphd08 Cell: 415 794 5924???????????????????????????????????????????????????? From: Martin John Packer To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2016 10:39 AM Subject: [Xmca-l] Request: Chandler article Does anyone have a pdf of this article by Michael Chandler? Martin Chandler, M. J. (1975). Relativism and the problem of epistemological loneliness. Human Development, 18(3), 171-180. A commentary on the sense of isolation and estrangement which commonly accompanies the relativism ushered in by the emergence of formal operational thought, and a detailing of several regressive strategies frequently employed by adolescents in their efforts to accommodate to this plurality of solitudes. It is suggested that the stereotypy, cliquishness and press toward conformity common among adolescents, as well as the penchant for abstraction and the susceptability to secular and nonsecular conversions often characteristic of this age group, can be understood as attempts to cope with the estrangement of social relativism through the imposition of a kind of artificial consensus. Such essentially regressive solutions are viewed as a by-product of a standard of cognitive development which regards maturity as a kind of exclusive trafficking in abstract relativistic thought. This view is contrasted with an alternative construction of cognitive development which rejects the notion that concretism is an intellectual handicap of middle childhood, that centered or figurative thinking is a conceptual stage to be overcome, and that thoughts freed of all contracdiction are the mark of conceptual maturity. This second and dialectical view of development is proposed as a perspective which permits a brand of cognitive growth that does not sacrifice the particular to the general nor condemn the adolescent to the vertigo of relativism. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: XMCA - Chandler, M. J. (1975) Relativism and the pb. of epistemological loneliness - Human Dev. 18(3).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2911221 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160710/09695a04/attachment-0001.pdf From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Jul 10 18:30:22 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 01:30:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request: Chandler article In-Reply-To: <1537328608.1590416.1468174658949.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> <2EF0E1D2-E90D-4490-82FB-B30DA5341D3E@uniandes.edu.co> <1537328608.1590416.1468174658949.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Francoise! I don?t know who or what the Bobcat is, but I hope you?ve patented him. :) Martin > On Jul 10, 2016, at 1:17 PM, Fran_oise2001 wrote: > > Martin, Voila! Courtesy of NYU Bobcat! Thanks for this ref. to Journal and article. > NYU faculty profile: http://www.scps.nyu.edu/faculty/faculty-profile.html?id=14461 Web pages : www.fhphd.org Blog: http://patentsonthesolesofyourshoes.blogspot.com/Blog: http://fichestechniquestradmed.blogspot.com/ > Skype: fhphd08 > Cell: 415 794 5924???????????????????????????????????????????????????? > > From: Martin John Packer > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2016 10:39 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Request: Chandler article > > Does anyone have a pdf of this article by Michael Chandler? > > Martin > > Chandler, M. J. (1975). Relativism and the problem of epistemological loneliness. Human Development, 18(3), 171-180. > > A commentary on the sense of isolation and estrangement which commonly accompanies the relativism ushered in by the emergence of formal operational thought, and a detailing of several regressive strategies frequently employed by adolescents in their efforts to accommodate to this plurality of solitudes. It is suggested that the stereotypy, cliquishness and press toward conformity common among adolescents, as well as the penchant for abstraction and the susceptability to secular and nonsecular conversions often characteristic of this age group, can be understood as attempts to cope with the estrangement of social relativism through the imposition of a kind of artificial consensus. Such essentially regressive solutions are viewed as a by-product of a standard of cognitive development which regards maturity as a kind of exclusive trafficking in abstract relativistic thought. This view is contrasted with an alternative construction of cognitive development which rejects the notion that concretism is an intellectual handicap of middle childhood, that centered or figurative thinking is a conceptual stage to be overcome, and that thoughts freed of all contracdiction are the mark of conceptual maturity. This second and dialectical view of development is proposed as a perspective which permits a brand of cognitive growth that does not sacrifice the particular to the general nor condemn the adolescent to the vertigo of relativism. > > > > > [The attachment XMCA - Chandler, M. J. (1975) Relativism and the pb. of epistemological loneliness - Human Dev. 18(3).pdf has been manually removed] > From fran_oise2001@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 20:34:32 2016 From: fran_oise2001@yahoo.com (Fran_oise2001) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 03:34:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request: Chandler article In-Reply-To: References: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> <2EF0E1D2-E90D-4490-82FB-B30DA5341D3E@uniandes.edu.co> <1537328608.1590416.1468174658949.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1601007323.1732194.1468208072236.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> u r v. welcome Matin, it was just a couple of clicks away!? Bobcat is the NYU libraries catalog, unrelated to any of the Apple OS cats... I have not searched library?system patents yet... and I have a request for female patents queued.... You see.... the very first US patent code (1790) included an explicit reference to female inventors with the pronoun "she", which becomes fleeting thereafter...and finally completely vanishes from the US codes. ?Thus, the 1790 occurrence is quite extraodinary, even unbelievable... were it not set into federal law... ?because females were completely disenfranchised at that time. So, even f they were granted patenting rights, they had no legal way to use or enforce their rights..(e.g.;. sell, trade, assign, manufacture, commercialize, profit from their patent rights).?That much I have copyrighted...? How r u? It has been a looong,?long time....!?? From: Martin John Packer To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2016 6:30 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request: Chandler article Thanks, Francoise! I don?t know who or what the Bobcat is, but I hope you?ve patented him.? :) Martin > On Jul 10, 2016, at 1:17 PM, Fran_oise2001 wrote: > > Martin, Voila! Courtesy of NYU Bobcat! Thanks for this ref. to Journal and article. > NYU faculty profile: http://www.scps.nyu.edu/faculty/faculty-profile.html?id=14461 Web pages : www.fhphd.org Blog: http://patentsonthesolesofyourshoes.blogspot.com/Blog: http://fichestechniquestradmed.blogspot.com/ > Skype: fhphd08 > Cell: 415 794 5924???????????????????????????????????????????????????? > >? ? ? From: Martin John Packer > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2016 10:39 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Request: Chandler article > > Does anyone have a pdf of this article by Michael Chandler? > > Martin > > Chandler, M. J. (1975). Relativism and the problem of epistemological loneliness. Human Development, 18(3), 171-180. > > A commentary on the sense of isolation and estrangement which commonly accompanies the relativism ushered in by the emergence of formal operational thought, and a detailing of several regressive strategies frequently employed by adolescents in their efforts to accommodate to this plurality of solitudes. It is suggested that the stereotypy, cliquishness and press toward conformity common among adolescents, as well as the penchant for abstraction and the susceptability to secular and nonsecular conversions often characteristic of this age group, can be understood as attempts to cope with the estrangement of social relativism through the imposition of a kind of artificial consensus. Such essentially regressive solutions are viewed as a by-product of a standard of cognitive development which regards maturity as a kind of exclusive trafficking in abstract relativistic thought. This view is contrasted with an alternative construction of cognitive development which rejects the notion that concretism is an intellectual handicap of middle childhood, that centered or figurative thinking is a conceptual stage to be overcome, and that thoughts freed of all contracdiction are the mark of conceptual maturity. This second and dialectical view of development is proposed as a perspective which permits a brand of cognitive growth that does not sacrifice the particular to the general nor condemn the adolescent to the vertigo of relativism. > > > > > [The attachment XMCA - Chandler, M. J. (1975) Relativism and the pb. of epistemological loneliness - Human Dev. 18(3).pdf has been manually removed] > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jul 10 21:44:15 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 04:44:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request: Chandler article In-Reply-To: <1601007323.1732194.1468208072236.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> <2EF0E1D2-E90D-4490-82FB-B30DA5341D3E@uniandes.edu.co> <1537328608.1590416.1468174658949.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> , <1601007323.1732194.1468208072236.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd like to thank Francoise and Martin for requesting and providing this article, by Chandler. It's a really good one! Something about it reminded me of LSV's Ch 6 of Thought and Speech. Also seems appropriate to the threads of late. I'm interested in this notion that abstract thought is somehow culture free, though. Where does this come from? And who was Turner? Is there a way to get my hands upon the Turner article cited in this paper? [Turner, T. (1973), Piaget's Structuralism. Am. Anthrop. 75:351-373.] Apparently he passed away last November: http://www.chronicle.cornell.edu/stories/2015/11/anthropologist-terence-turner-dies-79 Kind regards, Annalisa > > Chandler, M. J. (1975). Relativism and the problem of epistemological loneliness. Human Development, 18(3), 171-180. > > A commentary on the sense of isolation and estrangement which commonly accompanies the relativism ushered in by the emergence of formal operational thought, and a detailing of several regressive strategies frequently employed by adolescents in their efforts to accommodate to this plurality of solitudes. It is suggested that the stereotypy, cliquishness and press toward conformity common among adolescents, as well as the penchant for abstraction and the susceptability to secular and nonsecular conversions often characteristic of this age group, can be understood as attempts to cope with the estrangement of social relativism through the imposition of a kind of artificial consensus. Such essentially regressive solutions are viewed as a by-product of a standard of cognitive development which regards maturity as a kind of exclusive trafficking in abstract relativistic thought. This view is contrasted with an alternative construction of cognitive development which rejects the notion that concretism is an intellectual handicap of middle childhood, that centered or figurative thinking is a conceptual stage to be overcome, and that thoughts freed of all contradiction are the mark of conceptual maturity. This second and dialectical view of development is proposed as a perspective which permits a brand of cognitive growth that does not sacrifice the particular to the general nor condemn the adolescent to the vertigo of relativism. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Jul 11 06:01:01 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 22:01:01 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request: Chandler article In-Reply-To: References: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> <2EF0E1D2-E90D-4490-82FB-B30DA5341D3E@uniandes.edu.co> <1537328608.1590416.1468174658949.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1601007323.1732194.1468208072236.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Annalisa, I believe that Terry Turner was one of the few Marxists academics at Chicago who would actively support students who were involved in practical Marxist activity (and some of his students would lob the epithet "bourgeois Marxist" at the other Marxist academics - I TA'd with one of his students who, after getting her PhD, had pursued a non-academic PhD, but she continued to teach in the core as just one aspect of her continued activism). Anyway, I didn't know him personally but all second hand reports I've ever heard have been very positive. As to the paper you mentioned yes, it looks like a very interesting take on Piaget. I found this in it: "Piaget?s essentially dynamic approach to the concept of structure is reflected in two representative statements from Structuralism: the ?being? of structures consists in their becoming, that is, in their being ?under construction? [1970a:139]. There is no structure apart from construction [1970a:140]. ?Construction,? or the process through which structures are formed, is thus the most important concept in Piaget?s theory of structure." I wonder if it might be possible to read Piaget as a philosopher of the constitution of Being? Or am I reading too much into (out of?) that passage? -greg p.s. Anthrosource was supposed to have gone open access, so I've shared this article with all. I think there is a way to get articles through open access but you just have to find the right way into it. Could be a great resource for anyone without library privileges out there! On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > I'd like to thank Francoise and Martin for requesting and providing this > article, by Chandler. It's a really good one! Something about it reminded > me of LSV's Ch 6 of Thought and Speech. > > > Also seems appropriate to the threads of late. > > > I'm interested in this notion that abstract thought is somehow culture > free, though. Where does this come from? > > > And who was Turner? Is there a way to get my hands upon the Turner article > cited in this paper? > > [Turner, T. (1973), Piaget's Structuralism. Am. Anthrop. 75:351-373.] > > > Apparently he passed away last November: > > > http://www.chronicle.cornell.edu/stories/2015/11/anthropologist-terence-turner-dies-79 > > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > > > > Chandler, M. J. (1975). Relativism and the problem of epistemological > loneliness. Human Development, 18(3), 171-180. > > > > A commentary on the sense of isolation and estrangement which commonly > accompanies the relativism ushered in by the emergence of formal > operational thought, and a detailing of several regressive strategies > frequently employed by adolescents in their efforts to accommodate to this > plurality of solitudes. It is suggested that the stereotypy, cliquishness > and press toward conformity common among adolescents, as well as the > penchant for abstraction and the susceptability to secular and nonsecular > conversions often characteristic of this age group, can be understood as > attempts to cope with the estrangement of social relativism through the > imposition of a kind of artificial consensus. Such essentially regressive > solutions are viewed as a by-product of a standard of cognitive development > which regards maturity as a kind of exclusive trafficking in abstract > relativistic thought. This view is contrasted with an alternative > construction of cognitive development which rejects the notion that > concretism is an intellectual handicap of middle childhood, that centered > or figurative thinking is a conceptual stage to be overcome, and that > thoughts freed of all contradiction are the mark of conceptual maturity. > This second and dialectical view of development is proposed as a > perspective which permits a brand of cognitive growth that does not > sacrifice the particular to the general nor condemn the adolescent to the > vertigo of relativism. > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Turner-1973-American_Anthropologist.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2112472 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160711/2e9abd98/attachment-0001.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jul 11 08:07:06 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 08:07:06 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request: Chandler article In-Reply-To: References: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> <2EF0E1D2-E90D-4490-82FB-B30DA5341D3E@uniandes.edu.co> <1537328608.1590416.1468174658949.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1601007323.1732194.1468208072236.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5783b64d.881d620a.5b83b.ffffa5f0@mx.google.com> Martin, thanks for this request of Chandler?s article which has morphed to Terence Turner?s book review of ?Genetic Epistemology? Greg, thanks for Turner?s book review. Turner says Piaget?s model of genetic epistemology is founded (Constructed?) upon a sharp distinction between (figurative) and (operational) modes of thought. ? Figurative modes are a broad category including: Perception imitation, and mental imagery (symbols). Symbols in the Sausserian *sense* of motivated or iconic signs. Piaget dismisses figurative thought (as a whole) as the type of thought that is the *imitation of states* as momentary and static pictures. ? Operational modes of thought are defined as consisting essentially of logical *manipulations* of a dynamic, fluid character. This dynamic is an operation of *inverse* or *logical* transformations. Operational thought relies on (non-figurative) *signs*. (arbitrary, collectively standardized *tokens* that TYPICALLY denote *general* concepts. The sharp distinction between operational and figurative thought is the distinction between collective cultural character (nature of) *signs* as opposed to private, individual character (nature of) *figurative symbols*. I posted this fragment to juxtapose with James Ma?s exploration of word-picture modes of thought without piaget?s sharp distinctions Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Greg Thompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jul 11 09:30:01 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 09:30:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request: Chandler article In-Reply-To: <5783b64d.881d620a.5b83b.ffffa5f0@mx.google.com> References: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> <2EF0E1D2-E90D-4490-82FB-B30DA5341D3E@uniandes.edu.co> <1537328608.1590416.1468174658949.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1601007323.1732194.1468208072236.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5783b64d.881d620a.5b83b.ffffa5f0@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5783c9bc.1641620a.f5a8f.ffffa34a@mx.google.com> Paul Turner introduces a term (recentering) on page 353 that is important for exploring the notion of (decentering) that is the core concern of Piaget?s theory. Recentering is the opposite of Piaget?s model of mental development ? but ? this recentering mode of thought should not be confused with the primitive egocentricity of childhood. On the contrary, recentering presupposes that decenterong has already happened. Recentering expresses a particular *sensibility* (disposition?) or subjective relationship to the phenomena of decentring and recentering THROUGH figurative symbolism that orders (or constrains) cultural/historical phenomena. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Lplarry From james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk Mon Jul 11 10:43:15 2016 From: james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk (Ma, James (james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk)) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 17:43:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> , , <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry, you've made a good point. I think Aristotelian rhetoric can also generate a sense of belonging alongside being and becoming. For example, teaching, as a rhetorical act, is in essence a kind of persuasion through the use of ethos, pathos and logos. Such persuasion is indicative of the teacher's identity. James ________________________________ From: Lplarry Sent: 08 July 2016 14:41 To: Ma, James (james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk); eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) Falling within the realm of subjectivity and also the realm of (identity). So... Ethos, pathos, and logos as (ways) of generating a sense of identity. Are these Aristotelian notions: expressing quality (meaning *potential*) Or Expressing instances (existential) Or Expressing types (symbolic and shared) OF ethos, pathos, and logos That generate (identity) or sense of being/becoming a ... Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Ma, James (james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk) Sent: July 8, 2016 3:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) Hello Rob, I'd be interested to hear more too - perhaps if you could shed light on the entirety of Aristotelian rhetoric (ethos, pathos and logos). I'm always interested in what falls within the realm of subjectivity. James ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Greg Thompson Sent: 08 July 2016 10:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) Rob, Please do say more. What is the classical notion of "ethics"? or "'ethos"? etc. -greg On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 5:38 PM, R.J.S.Parsons wrote: > Sorry, can't keep my hands off this. "Ethos" in Greek is one of those > untranslatable words that bundles up a whole set of concepts without an > equivalent in English. It includes the idea of habits, habitually, but > it is not rght to say it *is* the Greek word for habit. > > I'm not against us discussing habits at all; it just awoke the > slumbering classicist in me. > > Rob > > On 08/07/2016 04:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Greg, > > > > (I'm starting a new thread with I hope a less loaded word than ethics). > > > > When you said, "person X habitually responds to a particular type of > situation with behavior Y" I was reminded of JJ Gibson's affordances, but > it depends upon what you mean by "situation," right? > > > > Just thought to add this to the mix. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson Gregory Thompson | Brigham Young University - Academia.edu byu.academia.edu Gregory Thompson, Brigham Young University, Anthropology Department, Faculty Member. Studies Education, Social Psychology, and Discourse Analysis. From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Mon Jul 11 12:03:02 2016 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (R.J.S.Parsons) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:03:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> Message-ID: I should have replied to this sooner, for which my apologies. I'm afraid I can't help with Aristotle or the Greek notion of ethics. The philosophy I did in my classics degree was mostly the pre-Socratics, with whom I did not get on, much to my subsequent regret. So I'm not mush use on the classical notion of ethics, except perhaps to comment that, in a period spanning a thousand years, there will be more than one notion. I was really only dealing with the linguistic issue about what the Greek word "ethos" signified. It did stand for "habit", but might be better translated in some settings as "custom" or "usage", hence a more colletive aspect. And it might also signify "character". So there is in there, I think, a combination of actions called habits, which are probably individual, but also collective construction in the idea of usage or custom, and finally the idea of a disposition in character. The idea of disposition perhaps nudges us towards virtue ethics, as in what kind of chaacter is a person who has these habits. Rob On 08/07/2016 11:31, Ma, James (james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk) wrote: > Hello Rob, > > > I'd be interested to hear more too - perhaps if you could shed light on the entirety of Aristotelian rhetoric (ethos, pathos and logos). I'm always interested in what falls within the realm of subjectivity. > > > James > > > ________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Greg Thompson > Sent: 08 July 2016 10:10 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) > > Rob, > Please do say more. > What is the classical notion of "ethics"? or "'ethos"? etc. > -greg > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 5:38 PM, R.J.S.Parsons > wrote: > >> Sorry, can't keep my hands off this. "Ethos" in Greek is one of those >> untranslatable words that bundles up a whole set of concepts without an >> equivalent in English. It includes the idea of habits, habitually, but >> it is not rght to say it *is* the Greek word for habit. >> >> I'm not against us discussing habits at all; it just awoke the >> slumbering classicist in me. >> >> Rob >> >> On 08/07/2016 04:46, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> Greg, >>> >>> (I'm starting a new thread with I hope a less loaded word than ethics). >>> >>> When you said, "person X habitually responds to a particular type of >> situation with behavior Y" I was reminded of JJ Gibson's affordances, but >> it depends upon what you mean by "situation," right? >>> Just thought to add this to the mix. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > Gregory Thompson | Brigham Young University - Academia.edu > byu.academia.edu > Gregory Thompson, Brigham Young University, Anthropology Department, Faculty Member. Studies Education, Social Psychology, and Discourse Analysis. > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jul 11 12:44:06 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:44:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> , , <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com>, Message-ID: I've been coming across all kinds of references to Aristotle as of late, and I'm curious about what makes him valuable to us in modern times, given he is a thinker from Ancient times. If anyone would like to pitch in on that question, I'm a willing reader. Just as I'm writing this, I saw Rob's post come in, and in reply to his post, I could offer that for the Vedic paradigm of habit, which is held in the ethical sense we have been speaking, would be considered a "spiritual practice" or "sadhana" in Sanskrit. This is something an individual chooses to do as an act of renunciation, or practice, with the anticipation that there will be a beneficial result of some kind for that practitioner. In fact doing "tapas," which is a self-imposed austerity, is a way of acquiring boons in much of the Indian mythologies, but of course this is in the extreme and has the feeling of comic-book superhero drama. Sadhana is more like polishing, or cleaning, or letting go, "simplifying," and this is very similar to the notion of habit in that it is repeated and is not a singular event; it is practiced, with the hope it becomes a habit. One reason this seems relevant to habit/ethics discussion is because this is an action (activity), and there is considered in that paradigm particular actions that will provide particular results. What is interesting to me is how these considerations are very historical and culturally specific for the time, but in some ways they seem to have some scientific basis, if only because there is an echo of the modern worldview that pertains to activity and development of mind. What bothers me is the way this can get problematic if one considers notions of "creating" purity through activity. I can't adhere to that, because of so many contradictions such a position creates, and how that worldview can exclude huge swathes of people. So in light of the recent Chandler article, here is an example of a contradiction as being indicated in mature thought, because considering it logically, it would mean that everyone is impure and requires a lot of "laundry activity" in order to be considered "pure enough" to be ethical. That isn't true generally or specifically, so to me, this is taking the logic too far, and is where the centering is needed in order to balance this logical approach to personal experience and reasonableness. I'm not sure if I'm making sense in this, and I feel tentative about writing it, as if I'm not standing on terra firma, but it's something I've been thinking a lot about lately and so it's serendipity to be able to discuss it (Thanks to everyone participating). It seems reasonable that particular habits one practices will create a particular kind of person (because of the mind that is created), and also those consequences of building character, as Rob indicates in the Greek word of "ethos". (Funny how we say "building character"?) So it seems that the ancients did have some understanding of this, East and West. But how do we make sense of it for ourselves? "How" meaning: what is that process that we practice? Kind regards, Annalisa From jrtudge@uncg.edu Mon Jul 11 12:58:04 2016 From: jrtudge@uncg.edu (Jonathan Tudge) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:58:04 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, Annalisa, I think that one reason he's useful is that he was perhaps a developmentalist at heart. As I understand it, Aristotle was interested in what one goes through (the experiences one has, with the help of others) in order to develop a virtue (or really, to become a virtuous person). I've been very influenced by the neo-Aristotelian Julia Annas, and her book Intelligent Virtue (2011), as you'll have seen if you looked at the recent Human Development paper I mentioned in an earlier post. Cheers, Jon ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathan Tudge Professor Office: 155 Stone http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/ Mailing address: 248 Stone Building Department of Human Development and Family Studies PO Box 26170 The University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27402-6170 USA phone (336) 223-6181 fax (336) 334-5076 http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:44 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > I've been coming across all kinds of references to Aristotle as of late, > and I'm curious about what makes him valuable to us in modern times, given > he is a thinker from Ancient times. > > > If anyone would like to pitch in on that question, I'm a willing reader. > > > Just as I'm writing this, I saw Rob's post come in, and in reply to his > post, I could offer that for the Vedic paradigm of habit, which is held in > the ethical sense we have been speaking, would be considered a "spiritual > practice" or "sadhana" in Sanskrit. This is something an individual chooses > to do as an act of renunciation, or practice, with the anticipation that > there will be a beneficial result of some kind for that practitioner. > > > In fact doing "tapas," which is a self-imposed austerity, is a way of > acquiring boons in much of the Indian mythologies, but of course this is in > the extreme and has the feeling of comic-book superhero drama. > > > Sadhana is more like polishing, or cleaning, or letting go, "simplifying," > and this is very similar to the notion of habit in that it is repeated and > is not a singular event; it is practiced, with the hope it becomes a habit. > > > One reason this seems relevant to habit/ethics discussion is because this > is an action (activity), and there is considered in that paradigm > particular actions that will provide particular results. > > > What is interesting to me is how these considerations are very historical > and culturally specific for the time, but in some ways they seem to have > some scientific basis, if only because there is an echo of the modern > worldview that pertains to activity and development of mind. > > > What bothers me is the way this can get problematic if one considers > notions of "creating" purity through activity. I can't adhere to that, > because of so many contradictions such a position creates, and how that > worldview can exclude huge swathes of people. > > > So in light of the recent Chandler article, here is an example of a > contradiction as being indicated in mature thought, because considering it > logically, it would mean that everyone is impure and requires a lot of > "laundry activity" in order to be considered "pure enough" to be ethical. > That isn't true generally or specifically, so to me, this is taking the > logic too far, and is where the centering is needed in order to balance > this logical approach to personal experience and reasonableness. > > > I'm not sure if I'm making sense in this, and I feel tentative about > writing it, as if I'm not standing on terra firma, but it's something I've > been thinking a lot about lately and so it's serendipity to be able to > discuss it (Thanks to everyone participating). > > > It seems reasonable that particular habits one practices will create a > particular kind of person (because of the mind that is created), and also > those consequences of building character, as Rob indicates in the Greek > word of "ethos". (Funny how we say "building character"?) > > > So it seems that the ancients did have some understanding of this, East > and West. But how do we make sense of it for ourselves? "How" meaning: what > is that process that we practice? > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jul 11 13:06:32 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:06:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> , Message-ID: Hi Jon, Thanks! Is there a chance of attaching the paper? I do not have access. Thanks, Annalisa From jrtudge@uncg.edu Mon Jul 11 13:12:32 2016 From: jrtudge@uncg.edu (Jonathan Tudge) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:12:32 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, Annalisa, I'm not sure that I'm able to distribute it to an entire online group, but I'll send it to you via your personal email. Cheers, Jon ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathan Tudge Professor Office: 155 Stone http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/ Mailing address: 248 Stone Building Department of Human Development and Family Studies PO Box 26170 The University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27402-6170 USA phone (336) 223-6181 fax (336) 334-5076 http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > Thanks! > > > Is there a chance of attaching the paper? I do not have access. > > > Thanks, > > > Annalisa > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jul 11 14:11:13 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:11:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request: Chandler article In-Reply-To: References: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> <2EF0E1D2-E90D-4490-82FB-B30DA5341D3E@uniandes.edu.co> <1537328608.1590416.1468174658949.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57840ba4.9457620a.f5370.ffffd895@mx.google.com> Thanks, Francoise for posting the Chandler article. I do not seem to have access to the article so could you repost it. I want to see how Chandler extends Paul Turners reading of Piaget through figurative symbolic thought These papers were written years ago but seem relevant to our current discussion on the semiotic stance/position becoming dis/positions. For example James Ma?s multimodal focus on the relation of words and pictures creating a bond between mother and child. This semiotic stance may extend into *becoming* dispositions that exemplify a persons character. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Martin John Packer From schuckthemonkey@gmail.com Mon Jul 11 15:59:33 2016 From: schuckthemonkey@gmail.com (Christopher Schuck) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 18:59:33 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> Message-ID: This is already such a rich set of reflections on this new thread that it's hard to know where to jump in. I'm tempted to go all the way back to the beginning since that would feel less complicated, but maybe I'll pick up at the end since that's probably where people's heads are now. I just wanted to say quickly in reference to that Julia Annas book (which I really liked too), that not too long ago there was a book forum devoted to it in Journal of Value Inquiry: a brief precis of the book from Annas, three commentaries, and her response. A couple of the commentaries get into these developmental themes, and one person even discusses "affordances" (but interestingly, in terms of Ulrich Neisser's understanding of the "sophisticated unconscious"; not Gibson's version which Annalisa alluded to). I have no idea what the protocol is about attaching individual journal articles here as opposed to books -- let me know what is kosher for future reference -- but I would be happy to either attach some of them or send them to individuals. I also wanted to mention that at least among a certain group of theoretical psychologists (Division 24 of the APA where I have had some involvement), the Aristotelian paradigm is hugely popular and influential right now in debates over human morality and how to better integrate psychology with ethics. Often he is invoked there as a solution or at least counterweight to the problems surrounding the positive psychology movement (a big topic in that division). Also indirectly by way of Charles Taylor and Alasdair MacIntyre....He is almost always juxtaposed favorably with Plato as the one who actually "got it right." My impression is that he dovetails very well with cultural critiques of liberal individualism and narcissism in contemporary Western society (e.g. Lasch, Bellah, more recently William Deresiewicz), which I have been hearing a lot of lately. In that sense, he appeals to a certain traditionalist or anti-postmodern strain that emphasizes the importance of strengthening communities through shared practices and norms, and the role of deliberately cultivating moral development in resisting the tendency toward relativism. I think his scientific and practical sensibilities also appeal to those who are frustrated by the failures of contemporary philosophy to relate to real-world concerns and/or want to keep a place for rigorous scientific inquiry. I personally have had some issues with some of the more conservative implications of the Aristotelian worldview and how readily he might be co-opted by more conservative agendas, but of course that is just one of many ways to read him (and certainly not the only way that I read him either!). I think it's really important to try to bring him into the modern era and engage fully with our modern set of conditions and concerns, not just idealize his timeless ancient wisdom, wise as much of it may be. Chris On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Jonathan Tudge wrote: > Hi, Annalisa, > > I'm not sure that I'm able to distribute it to an entire online group, but > I'll send it to you via your personal email. > > Cheers, > > Jon > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Jonathan Tudge > > Professor > Office: 155 Stone > > http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/ > > Mailing address: > 248 Stone Building > Department of Human Development and Family Studies > PO Box 26170 > The University of North Carolina at Greensboro > Greensboro, NC 27402-6170 > USA > > phone (336) 223-6181 > fax (336) 334-5076 > > http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html > > > On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Hi Jon, > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Is there a chance of attaching the paper? I do not have access. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > From fran_oise2001@yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 16:01:34 2016 From: fran_oise2001@yahoo.com (Fran_oise2001) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 23:01:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request: Chandler article In-Reply-To: <57840ba4.9457620a.f5370.ffffd895@mx.google.com> References: <4gnin25q4y2o6lh31nl4tc0o.1468062050842@email.android.com> <2EF0E1D2-E90D-4490-82FB-B30DA5341D3E@uniandes.edu.co> <1537328608.1590416.1468174658949.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <57840ba4.9457620a.f5370.ffffd895@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <207740500.2126846.1468278094604.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Voici,?anew?and attached, the Chandler article! From: Lplarry To: Martin John Packer ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 2:11 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Request: Chandler article Thanks, Francoise for posting the Chandler article. I do not seem to have access to the article so could you repost it. I want to see how Chandler extends Paul Turners reading of Piaget through figurative symbolic thought These papers were written years ago but seem relevant to our current discussion on the semiotic stance/position becoming dis/positions. For example James Ma?s multimodal focus on the relation of words and pictures creating a bond between mother and child. This semiotic stance may extend into *becoming* dispositions that exemplify a persons character. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Martin John Packer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: XMCA - Chandler, M. J. (1975) Relativism and the pb. of epistemological loneliness - Human Dev. 18(3).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2911221 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160711/c0912de9/attachment-0001.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Jul 11 17:00:15 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:00:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> , Message-ID: Hi Chris, Some really great stuff you have here! Jumping in anywhere you wish is most appreciated. As far as attaching texts, I believe that because we are an academic forum, it is possible to attach texts because this is within fair use. However, please, if anyone has any further information on the codes of conduct, please post? I looked on the XMCA homepage, and didn't see anything about it. Whatever the case, I would not mind having these texts sent to me Chris, directly. Thanks. This trend of "Aristotelian development of ethics" in psychology is extremely interesting, and I myself would like to know more, if this isn't taking the thread too far afield. In particular, I would be interested how this investigation compares to and is similar to cultural-historical developments. Would you mind to send links to those entries at the book forum at Journal of Value Inquiry you mention, or must we be members to see that? I looked up Neisser's entry on the wiki, as it's been a while since I read up on him. Apparently, he was younger than Gibson. Neisser considered the need to integrate affordances as Gibson saw them, so the original concept of affordance does comes from Gibson, not Neisser. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_Neisser#Work_and_career I'd like to comment that I noticed that the entry there might be a mistaken definition of affordance; the division of the notion of affordance as "the theory of direct perception and information pickup," seems wrong to me, because the affordance is not supposed to be divided at all, but unified in its interaction in time and space. That is the entire reason he coined the word affordance, just so it wasn't divided as "input/output." The affordance (as a noun) was an attempt to move away from stimulus and response. When this is divided into "direct perception and information pickup" it seems to echo behaviorism's model, doesn't it? Also, when I looked at the wiki entry for Gibson there is no description like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._J._Gibson#Affordances Additionally, there is mention at the above link that he extended of the theory to include "social affordances," and from reading that entry of "social affordance" its possible to understand why game theory could come into the mix (bringing us back to the beginning with Andy's mention of utilitarianism). Also Gibson's wife, Eleanor, used the theory for child development. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordance Somehow all this appears to be relevant to our discussion. In a way, the affordance is sort of like Vygotsky's word-meaning, it isn't supposed to be word and meaning as separated then joined, but something unified as a unit. Isn't this right? I think Gibson was attempting to do something similarly, but in terms of perception and action (rather than information, which seems to be an infiltration of artificial intelligence, if you ask me). The notion of affordance was derived in work he did in the Army, during WW II, to understand with how aircraft pilots perceive the lengths of runways, particularly in places where there were no established runways, as in the case of emergency landings, I'd imagine. Kind regards, Annalisa From jrtudge@uncg.edu Mon Jul 11 17:11:01 2016 From: jrtudge@uncg.edu (Jonathan Tudge) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:11:01 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Well, here, for what it's worth, is the paper I mentioned (Annalisa persuaded me that I probably wouldn't be breaking copyright as this forum is for educational discussions!). The paper has a narrow focus, on the development of gratitude rather than on virtues or virtue ethics in general, but it was very helpful to me to think of gratitude as a virtue, developing in the way that Annas and other Aristotelians argue, rather than simply as a positive emotion. Cheers, Jon ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathan Tudge Professor Office: 155 Stone http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/ Mailing address: 248 Stone Building Department of Human Development and Family Studies PO Box 26170 The University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27402-6170 USA phone (336) 223-6181 fax (336) 334-5076 http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 6:59 PM, Christopher Schuck < schuckthemonkey@gmail.com> wrote: > This is already such a rich set of reflections on this new thread that it's > hard to know where to jump in. I'm tempted to go all the way back to the > beginning since that would feel less complicated, but maybe I'll pick up at > the end since that's probably where people's heads are now. I just wanted > to say quickly in reference to that Julia Annas book (which I really liked > too), that not too long ago there was a book forum devoted to it in Journal > of Value Inquiry: a brief precis of the book from Annas, three > commentaries, and her response. A couple of the commentaries get into these > developmental themes, and one person even discusses "affordances" (but > interestingly, in terms of Ulrich Neisser's understanding of the > "sophisticated unconscious"; not Gibson's version which Annalisa alluded > to). I have no idea what the protocol is about attaching individual journal > articles here as opposed to books -- let me know what is kosher for future > reference -- but I would be happy to either attach some of them or send > them to individuals. > > I also wanted to mention that at least among a certain group of theoretical > psychologists (Division 24 of the APA where I have had some involvement), > the Aristotelian paradigm is hugely popular and influential right now in > debates over human morality and how to better integrate psychology with > ethics. Often he is invoked there as a solution or at least counterweight > to the problems surrounding the positive psychology movement (a big topic > in that division). Also indirectly by way of Charles Taylor and Alasdair > MacIntyre....He is almost always juxtaposed favorably with Plato as the one > who actually "got it right." My impression is that he dovetails very well > with cultural critiques of liberal individualism and narcissism in > contemporary Western society (e.g. Lasch, Bellah, more recently William > Deresiewicz), which I have been hearing a lot of lately. In that sense, he > appeals to a certain traditionalist or anti-postmodern strain that > emphasizes the importance of strengthening communities through shared > practices and norms, and the role of deliberately cultivating moral > development in resisting the tendency toward relativism. I think his > scientific and practical sensibilities also appeal to those who are > frustrated by the failures of contemporary philosophy to relate to > real-world concerns and/or want to keep a place for rigorous scientific > inquiry. > > I personally have had some issues with some of the more conservative > implications of the Aristotelian worldview and how readily he might be > co-opted by more conservative agendas, but of course that is just one of > many ways to read him (and certainly not the only way that I read him > either!). I think it's really important to try to bring him into the modern > era and engage fully with our modern set of conditions and concerns, not > just idealize his timeless ancient wisdom, wise as much of it may be. > > Chris > > On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Jonathan Tudge wrote: > > > Hi, Annalisa, > > > > I'm not sure that I'm able to distribute it to an entire online group, > but > > I'll send it to you via your personal email. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Jon > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Jonathan Tudge > > > > Professor > > Office: 155 Stone > > > > http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/ > > > > Mailing address: > > 248 Stone Building > > Department of Human Development and Family Studies > > PO Box 26170 > > The University of North Carolina at Greensboro > > Greensboro, NC 27402-6170 > > USA > > > > phone (336) 223-6181 > > fax (336) 334-5076 > > > > http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Jon, > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > Is there a chance of attaching the paper? I do not have access. > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tudge, Freitas, & O'Brien (2015).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 122886 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160711/588e90ca/attachment.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jul 12 12:44:47 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 12:44:47 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <578548e3.513d620a.36990.ffffbf43@mx.google.com> On the topic of ethos and virtue Bernard Williams argues that those who see discontinuities between Greek and current conceptions of responsibility, agency, and emotion must be blind to the fact that the ancient conceptions have been not so much replaced as covered up in a Kantian wallpaper of duty and obligation. Bernard Williams in his own words insists: ? if we can come to understand the ethical concepts of the Greeks, we shall recognize them in ourselves? The book ?Shame and Necessity? by Bernard Williams explores these two topics of obligation and the topic of duty. What is the ethical stance (or disposition) of cultural historical theory? Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Jonathan Tudge From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jul 12 13:24:04 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:24:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: <578548e3.513d620a.36990.ffffbf43@mx.google.com> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> <578548e3.513d620a.36990.ffffbf43@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <57855218.554e620a.b7aa6.1de3@mx.google.com> Bernard Williams book ?Shame and Necessisty? in his own words is: ?directed to what I call, broadly, ethical ideas of the Greeks: In particular, ideas of responsible action, justice, and the motivations that lead people to do things that are admired and respected. My aim is a philosophical description of an historical reality. What is to be recovered and compared with our kinds of ethical thought is an historical formation ....? Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Lplarry From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:47:53 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 17:47:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: <57855218.554e620a.b7aa6.1de3@mx.google.com> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> <578548e3.513d620a.36990.ffffbf43@mx.google.com> <57855218.554e620a.b7aa6.1de3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <57858fed.2c86420a.6e01c.ffff897d@mx.google.com> There are concurrent conversations ongoing on the topics of semiosis (Peirce) and virtues (Aristotle). Paul Kockleman has written an article juxtaposing Aristotle, Marx, Heiddeger, and Peirce and their 4 distinct theories of (things). If interested I can post to this site Kockleman believes Aristotle?s term (cause) that has been paired with its compliment (effect) should probably be better expressed in terms of (sources) and (destinations) as well as (paths). Thereby we will in our questioning avoid any mechanistic assumptions. I will add the term (ways) in order to acknowledge the wisdom of Confucius and the Dao. This adding way to compliment path is a way to express gratitude (in the way of virtue) to other wisdom traditions and remind myself of James Ma?s (path) through Confucius. Jame?s opening remark in his paper on Confucius as axiomatic resonated as his path and destination. So .. Sources/destinations Paths/ways Returning to Paul Kockleman and moving through and within Paul Kockleman?s exploration of *value* in Aristotle and Marx and Heiddeger and Peirce. My way of expressing gratitude for this forum where it is possible for locating sources as dialogical forms of becoming other through identity (and identity through other). This includes Paul Turner?s extension of decentering to include *recentering* as a process of figurative symbolism that compliments operational decentered thinking that is always in relation with operational thinking. There seems to be a common source within these threads, with multiple paths but the destination may be a Copernican type shift in our (ways) of understanding and interpreting human nature as expressing *value* Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Lplarry From helenaworthen@gmail.com Tue Jul 12 18:44:47 2016 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:44:47 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this please In-Reply-To: References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu> <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <0F2FBF25-1610-4275-BEFD-EF59A0A21584@gmail.com> Greg ? I?m nearly 10 days behind, but I would still like to hear some thoughts about VR. I don?t mean DOING a paper in VR. I don?t forsee that happening. But to the extent that people like to think about how narrative works, I would expect that the question of how narrative works in VR should be intriguing. Think about how the writer constructs a place ? a platform - on which the reader experiences the flow of the action. There is a lot of stuff written about how this platform is constructed in written narrative: the omniscient narrator who has the ?eye of God,? who can tell what is happening anywhere in the universe, at any time, and feed it in consecutive bites into the mind of the reader, allowing him or her to see omnisciently. Then there?s the writer who shows us the world through the eye of one person, sometimes the main protagonist and sometimes an observe, but still makes the reader look at the action from the outside. Then there?s the ?I? or first person narrator, through which the writer places the reader into the body and eye of the protagonist. And there?s the ?you? version, where the writer speaks in the reader?s ear telling him or her, ?then you did this, then you did that.? All of this had to be completely re-thought for movies, once movies stopped being just theater on film. The meaning of each choice had to be explicit, if only so that the cameraman could know what to shoot and the editors know what to cut. I thought this was where semiotics really got going. So what happens when you get VR? The story is still told by the writers and the people who prepare the film. But the viewer is now standing, moving, walking or riding in the center of a sphere that surrounds him. He is not looking at a screen. He is in three-dimensional space. He can turn around and see what?s going on behind him. He can look down and see the ground (early VR like the Ghostbusters shortie let you look down and ?whoops, where are my legs? A problem to be fixed later) or up and see trees, tall buildings, stars or airplanes. Behind him, a car might be coming down the street. All of this is moving along just like in reality. But the filmmakers now have to account for the coherence of the viewer?s experience and construct that coherence and make it meaningful. I have googled ?Semiotics of Virtual Reality? and found articles about games and language but nothing that really addressed how different the thinking and designing of a VR experience must be, compared to other ways of constructing an experience intended to be enjoyed by someone else. This is intended as just a response, not trying to start a new thread. Helena > On Jul 3, 2016, at 4:34 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > My thought: > Anybody working on a next paper for publication - how about doing it in > virtual reality? > Is that even imaginable? > -greg? > P.S. Helena, congratulations on your son's success! > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 2:36 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> What do you find disturbing about virtual reality entertainment, Helena? >> And your son is employed! >> Seems like your reality is virtually in great shape. :-) >> mike >> >> On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Helena Worthen >> wrote: >> >>> Please take a look at this disturbing but real phenomenon: >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.alistdaily.com/media/sony-pictures-kicks-off-vr-entertainment-business-ghostbusters/ >>> >>> Full disclosure: this guy is my son. How did this happen? >>> >>> Helena >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> 21 San Mateo Road >>> Berkeley, CA 94707 >>> hworthen@illinois.edu >>> Vietnam blog is at: helenaworthen.wordpress.com >>> 510-828-2745 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jul 12 21:45:07 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 04:45:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> , Message-ID: Greetings Jon, I received your paper and will need some time to digest it. Just didn't want you to feel that there were crickets! Also Larry, Thanks for your great and thoughtful posts! PLEASE post the Kockleman paper! That one sounds fantastic! And bring on the Confucious and the Dao! But, a question, Larry, do you mean (in regards to "de-centering" vs. "centering") Paul Turner, or Terrence Turner who was referenced in the Chandler paper just recently posted? Just wondering if I missed something... Feedback: A deep chord was struck when you asked: *What is the ethical stance (or disposition) of cultural historical theory?* **THAT is the Sixty-four-thousand Dollar Question (SDQ).** I am awaiting an answer on that one, because it seems extremely core to what everyone and anyone on this list would care about. Even all those lurkers who are now eating copious amounts of popcorn, right about now. Youknowwhoyouare. Or else you are enjoying yourselves by the beach, or some other sandbox in the world we inhabit! Kind terrain to you all, Annalisa From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Jul 12 21:58:15 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:58:15 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this please In-Reply-To: <0F2FBF25-1610-4275-BEFD-EF59A0A21584@gmail.com> References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu> <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu> <0F2FBF25-1610-4275-BEFD-EF59A0A21584@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I still like the I think the more immediate problem that virtual reality designers face is to simply create moment-to-moment experiential coherence. That is a huge task to master. But isn't it interesting that the narrative coherence has always preceded experiential coherence? When stories are told the old-fashioned way, the event of narration is markedly different from the event being narrated (to paraphrase Jakobson's terms in the way that I think Stanton Wortham did in Narratives in Action). And indeed, I think that virtual reality might be understood as the reduction of the distance between the event of narration and the narrated event. But there always has to be some distance otherwise it is no longer virtual (although the movies, The Game, The Truman Show, The Matrix, etc, play with this a bit in a way not so different from how the "prank" or the "gag" - candid camera-style (or Jamie Kennedy Experiment-style or Punk'd-style) - that involves one person feeling that they are just living while others are controlling a narrative line of which they are unaware). (and, of course, that isn't to say that the experience of narration isn't important - there are enactments in the narration that are extremely important but it is simple fact that these are markedly different from the experience itself). (Anyhow, just thinking in parentheticals here). But I do think an academic paper as a virtual reality experience would be an interesting one. Perhaps in the genre of ethnography or historical narrative? Thanks for providing such fecund material for thinking these things! -greg On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 10:44 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Greg ? I?m nearly 10 days behind, but I would still like to hear some > thoughts about VR. I don?t mean DOING a paper in VR. I don?t forsee that > happening. But to the extent that people like to think about how narrative > works, I would expect that the question of how narrative works in VR should > be intriguing. Think about how the writer constructs a place ? a platform - > on which the reader experiences the flow of the action. There is a lot of > stuff written about how this platform is constructed in written narrative: > the omniscient narrator who has the ?eye of God,? who can tell what is > happening anywhere in the universe, at any time, and feed it in consecutive > bites into the mind of the reader, allowing him or her to see omnisciently. > Then there?s the writer who shows us the world through the eye of one > person, sometimes the main protagonist and sometimes an observe, but still > makes the reader look at the action from the outside. Then there?s the ?I? > or first person narrator, through which the writer places the reader into > the body and eye of the protagonist. And there?s the ?you? version, where > the writer speaks in the reader?s ear telling him or her, ?then you did > this, then you did that.? > > All of this had to be completely re-thought for movies, once movies > stopped being just theater on film. The meaning of each choice had to be > explicit, if only so that the cameraman could know what to shoot and the > editors know what to cut. I thought this was where semiotics really got > going. > > So what happens when you get VR? The story is still told by the writers > and the people who prepare the film. But the viewer is now standing, > moving, walking or riding in the center of a sphere that surrounds him. He > is not looking at a screen. He is in three-dimensional space. He can turn > around and see what?s going on behind him. He can look down and see the > ground (early VR like the Ghostbusters shortie let you look down and > ?whoops, where are my legs? A problem to be fixed later) or up and see > trees, tall buildings, stars or airplanes. Behind him, a car might be > coming down the street. All of this is moving along just like in reality. > But the filmmakers now have to account for the coherence of the viewer?s > experience and construct that coherence and make it meaningful. > > I have googled ?Semiotics of Virtual Reality? and found articles about > games and language but nothing that really addressed how different the > thinking and designing of a VR experience must be, compared to other ways > of constructing an experience intended to be enjoyed by someone else. > > This is intended as just a response, not trying to start a new thread. > > Helena > > > > > On Jul 3, 2016, at 4:34 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > > My thought: > > Anybody working on a next paper for publication - how about doing it in > > virtual reality? > > Is that even imaginable? > > -greg? > > P.S. Helena, congratulations on your son's success! > > > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 2:36 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> What do you find disturbing about virtual reality entertainment, Helena? > >> And your son is employed! > >> Seems like your reality is virtually in great shape. :-) > >> mike > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Helena Worthen > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Please take a look at this disturbing but real phenomenon: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > http://www.alistdaily.com/media/sony-pictures-kicks-off-vr-entertainment-business-ghostbusters/ > >>> > >>> Full disclosure: this guy is my son. How did this happen? > >>> > >>> Helena > >>> > >>> > >>> Helena Worthen > >>> 21 San Mateo Road > >>> Berkeley, CA 94707 > >>> hworthen@illinois.edu > >>> Vietnam blog is at: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > >>> 510-828-2745 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Jul 12 22:06:23 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 14:06:23 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: <57858fed.2c86420a.6e01c.ffff897d@mx.google.com> References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> <578548e3.513d620a.36990.ffffbf43@mx.google.com> <57855218.554e620a.b7aa6.1de3@mx.google.com> <57858fed.2c86420a.6e01c.ffff897d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry, Did I send the link to this book by Lambek already? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/022629224X/ref=pe_1274380_199838430_em_1p_2_ti Here is a little bit from the blurb for the book: "Building from ethnographic accounts there, they synthesize Aristotelian notions of practical judgment and virtuous action with Wittgensteinian notions of the ordinariness of ethical life and the importance of language, everyday speech, and ritual in order to understand how ethics are lived. They illustrate the multiple ways in which ethics informs personhood, character, and practice; explore the centrality of judgment, action, and irony to ethical life; and consider the relation of virtue to value. The result is a fully fleshed-out picture of ethics as a deeply rooted aspect of the human experience. " Anyway, it is another take on the ordinariness and everydayness of ethics-as-practiced/embodied/lived rather than it as some set of ideals or such. I think that is an interesting approach to take. But I still haven't heard much about CHAT perspectives to ethics. Are there none? And if Lambek is generally correct in his argument about the pervasiveness of ethics, is this a problem that needs to be addressed by CHAT? Or are there ways in which it can be subsumed by concept's such as Andy's "project" (which also happens to be his (ethical) project!)! -greg On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Lplarry wrote: > There are concurrent conversations ongoing on the topics of semiosis > (Peirce) and virtues (Aristotle). > > Paul Kockleman has written an article juxtaposing Aristotle, Marx, > Heiddeger, and Peirce and their 4 distinct theories of (things). > If interested I can post to this site > > > Kockleman believes Aristotle?s term (cause) that has been paired with its > compliment (effect) should probably be better expressed in terms of > (sources) and (destinations) as well as (paths). > Thereby we will in our questioning avoid any mechanistic assumptions. > > I will add the term (ways) in order to acknowledge the wisdom of Confucius > and the Dao. This adding way to compliment path is a way to express > gratitude (in the way of virtue) to other wisdom traditions and remind > myself of James Ma?s (path) through Confucius. > Jame?s opening remark in his paper on Confucius as axiomatic resonated as > his path and destination. > So .. > Sources/destinations > Paths/ways > > Returning to Paul Kockleman and moving through and within Paul Kockleman?s > exploration of *value* in Aristotle and Marx and Heiddeger and Peirce. > > My way of expressing gratitude for this forum where it is possible for > locating sources as dialogical forms of becoming other through identity > (and identity through other). > > This includes Paul Turner?s extension of decentering to include > *recentering* as a process of figurative symbolism that compliments > operational decentered thinking that is always in relation with operational > thinking. > > There seems to be a common source within these threads, with multiple > paths but the destination may be a Copernican type shift in our (ways) of > understanding and interpreting human nature as expressing *value* > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Lplarry > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Jul 12 23:42:44 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 06:42:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> <578548e3.513d620a.36990.ffffbf43@mx.google.com> <57855218.554e620a.b7aa6.1de3@mx.google.com> <57858fed.2c86420a.6e01c.ffff897d@mx.google.com>, Message-ID: Hi, Chris told me of John Shotter, whom I've not heard mentioned on this list, though I have not googled the archives at all. Just saying since I've been paying attention. Then, I realized I have two papers of his in my stash of texts; after scanning the first few pages, I thought these texts might be relevant to this thread. He has a very nice way of describing LSV's work in the Seeing Historically (2000) paper. See what you think? Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Shotter_Harr? Vygotsky Bakhtin Vico Wittgenstein_1993.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1204151 bytes Desc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Shotter=5FHarr=E9_Vygotsky_Bakhtin_Vico_Wittgenstein=5F199?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?3.pdf?= Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160713/e61c0266/attachment-0002.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Shotter_Seeing_Historically_2000.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 88277 bytes Desc: Shotter_Seeing_Historically_2000.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160713/e61c0266/attachment-0003.pdf From wendy.maples@outlook.com Wed Jul 13 01:41:08 2016 From: wendy.maples@outlook.com (Wendy Maples) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 09:41:08 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this VR In-Reply-To: <0F2FBF25-1610-4275-BEFD-EF59A0A21584@gmail.com> References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu>, , , <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu>, , , <0F2FBF25-1610-4275-BEFD-EF59A0A21584@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Helen,I am going to my first gaming industry conference tomorrow (longish story: I don't know anything about games, but I am very interested in narrative in different forms) and, in fact, the question you ask below is one of the questions I have. I think the answer, or part of the answer, is in your discussion of point of view. Very, very simplistically, most film takes up the omniscient narrator POV (though often attenuated, or heavily scored with the POV of the main protagonist), but, as you say, VR is quite different. My understanding is that VR seeks to narrate from the 1st person: the 'I' is the actor/character who is 'me'. However, what I think happens more often -- and rather excitingly, as this is very, very tricky in written fiction -- is that VR POV is 2nd person -- the 'you' which you nicely describe as 'where the writer speaks in the reader's ear'. I THINK so, anyway. Might know more after tomorrow!Thanks for this!Wendy > From: helenaworthen@gmail.com > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:44:47 -0700 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this please > > Greg ? I?m nearly 10 days behind, but I would still like to hear some thoughts about VR. I don?t mean DOING a paper in VR. I don?t forsee that happening. But to the extent that people like to think about how narrative works, I would expect that the question of how narrative works in VR should be intriguing. Think about how the writer constructs a place ? a platform - on which the reader experiences the flow of the action. There is a lot of stuff written about how this platform is constructed in written narrative: the omniscient narrator who has the ?eye of God,? who can tell what is happening anywhere in the universe, at any time, and feed it in consecutive bites into the mind of the reader, allowing him or her to see omnisciently. Then there?s the writer who shows us the world through the eye of one person, sometimes the main protagonist and sometimes an observe, but still makes the reader look at the action from the outside. Then there?s the ?I? or first person narrator, through which the writer places the reader into the body and eye of the protagonist. And there?s the ?you? version, where the writer speaks in the reader?s ear telling him or her, ?then you did this, then you did that.? > > All of this had to be completely re-thought for movies, once movies stopped being just theater on film. The meaning of each choice had to be explicit, if only so that the cameraman could know what to shoot and the editors know what to cut. I thought this was where semiotics really got going. > > So what happens when you get VR? The story is still told by the writers and the people who prepare the film. But the viewer is now standing, moving, walking or riding in the center of a sphere that surrounds him. He is not looking at a screen. He is in three-dimensional space. He can turn around and see what?s going on behind him. He can look down and see the ground (early VR like the Ghostbusters shortie let you look down and ?whoops, where are my legs? A problem to be fixed later) or up and see trees, tall buildings, stars or airplanes. Behind him, a car might be coming down the street. All of this is moving along just like in reality. But the filmmakers now have to account for the coherence of the viewer?s experience and construct that coherence and make it meaningful. > > I have googled ?Semiotics of Virtual Reality? and found articles about games and language but nothing that really addressed how different the thinking and designing of a VR experience must be, compared to other ways of constructing an experience intended to be enjoyed by someone else. > > This is intended as just a response, not trying to start a new thread. > > Helena > > > > > On Jul 3, 2016, at 4:34 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > > My thought: > > Anybody working on a next paper for publication - how about doing it in > > virtual reality? > > Is that even imaginable? > > -greg? > > P.S. Helena, congratulations on your son's success! > > > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 2:36 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> What do you find disturbing about virtual reality entertainment, Helena? > >> And your son is employed! > >> Seems like your reality is virtually in great shape. :-) > >> mike > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Helena Worthen > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Please take a look at this disturbing but real phenomenon: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> http://www.alistdaily.com/media/sony-pictures-kicks-off-vr-entertainment-business-ghostbusters/ > >>> > >>> Full disclosure: this guy is my son. How did this happen? > >>> > >>> Helena > >>> > >>> > >>> Helena Worthen > >>> 21 San Mateo Road > >>> Berkeley, CA 94707 > >>> hworthen@illinois.edu > >>> Vietnam blog is at: helenaworthen.wordpress.com > >>> 510-828-2745 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Jul 13 07:17:26 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:17:26 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Habits (Greek: ethos) In-Reply-To: References: <77f19717-bf06-3bdf-92b4-9f6cb1a57bcb@mira.net> <31AB5E96-CE34-4339-B275-D48FCAC3C1A8@gmail.com> <75eb6ae8-dd1e-10cc-6792-1dfefeec3a5c@mira.net> <5b05f9e8-c847-eb02-1fd0-661e7631b956@mira.net> <8d0c9bf4-df08-2ac6-8854-b6a5e54dbdd6@mira.net> <52aed555-068f-9d66-dd05-939dec63d9c3@mira.net> <577fada0.1641620a.2c33e.ffff89ff@mx.google.com> <578548e3.513d620a.36990.ffffbf43@mx.google.com> <57855218.554e620a.b7aa6.1de3@mx.google.com> <57858fed.2c86420a.6e01c.ffff897d@mx.google.com>, Message-ID: <57864daa.0520620a.f3427.1653@mx.google.com> Hi Annalisa, Shotter has been engaged and yes his project is a source for many. I notice that I easily downloaded the second article posted, but the first article did not load. I opened the second article through Acrobat Reader but the first article would not load to even ask for which download format (acrobat or edge) I prefer. Also, I had the same problem with the Chandler article. Could you please repost the Chandler article that Francoise sent earlier. I want to read with Terence article ( who I mistakenly referred to as Paul). Thanks, I will post the Kockleman paper. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Annalisa Aguilar From helenaworthen@gmail.com Wed Jul 13 07:24:33 2016 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:24:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this VR In-Reply-To: References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu>, , , <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu>, , , <0F2FBF25-1610-4275-BEFD-EF59A0A21584@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Wendy. The resources of this list are astonishing!!! Please report back. Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com Vietnam blog: helenaworthen.wordpress.com On Jul 13, 2016, at 1:41 AM, Wendy Maples wrote: > Hi Helen,I am going to my first gaming industry conference tomorrow (longish story: I don't know anything about games, but I am very interested in narrative in different forms) and, in fact, the question you ask below is one of the questions I have. I think the answer, or part of the answer, is in your discussion of point of view. Very, very simplistically, most film takes up the omniscient narrator POV (though often attenuated, or heavily scored with the POV of the main protagonist), but, as you say, VR is quite different. My understanding is that VR seeks to narrate from the 1st person: the 'I' is the actor/character who is 'me'. However, what I think happens more often -- and rather excitingly, as this is very, very tricky in written fiction -- is that VR POV is 2nd person -- the 'you' which you nicely describe as 'where the writer speaks in the reader's ear'. I THINK so, anyway. Might know more after tomorrow!Thanks for this!Wendy >> From: helenaworthen@gmail.com >> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:44:47 -0700 >> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this please >> >> Greg ? I?m nearly 10 days behind, but I would still like to hear some thoughts about VR. I don?t mean DOING a paper in VR. I don?t forsee that happening. But to the extent that people like to think about how narrative works, I would expect that the question of how narrative works in VR should be intriguing. Think about how the writer constructs a place ? a platform - on which the reader experiences the flow of the action. There is a lot of stuff written about how this platform is constructed in written narrative: the omniscient narrator who has the ?eye of God,? who can tell what is happening anywhere in the universe, at any time, and feed it in consecutive bites into the mind of the reader, allowing him or her to see omnisciently. Then there?s the writer who shows us the world through the eye of one person, sometimes the main protagonist and sometimes an observe, but still makes the reader look at the action from the outside. Then there?s the ?I? or first person narrator, through which the writer places the reader into the body and eye of the protagonist. And there?s the ?you? version, where the writer speaks in the reader?s ear telling him or her, ?then you did this, then you did that.? >> >> All of this had to be completely re-thought for movies, once movies stopped being just theater on film. The meaning of each choice had to be explicit, if only so that the cameraman could know what to shoot and the editors know what to cut. I thought this was where semiotics really got going. >> >> So what happens when you get VR? The story is still told by the writers and the people who prepare the film. But the viewer is now standing, moving, walking or riding in the center of a sphere that surrounds him. He is not looking at a screen. He is in three-dimensional space. He can turn around and see what?s going on behind him. He can look down and see the ground (early VR like the Ghostbusters shortie let you look down and ?whoops, where are my legs? A problem to be fixed later) or up and see trees, tall buildings, stars or airplanes. Behind him, a car might be coming down the street. All of this is moving along just like in reality. But the filmmakers now have to account for the coherence of the viewer?s experience and construct that coherence and make it meaningful. >> >> I have googled ?Semiotics of Virtual Reality? and found articles about games and language but nothing that really addressed how different the thinking and designing of a VR experience must be, compared to other ways of constructing an experience intended to be enjoyed by someone else. >> >> This is intended as just a response, not trying to start a new thread. >> >> Helena >> >> >> >>> On Jul 3, 2016, at 4:34 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>> My thought: >>> Anybody working on a next paper for publication - how about doing it in >>> virtual reality? >>> Is that even imaginable? >>> -greg? >>> P.S. Helena, congratulations on your son's success! >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 2:36 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> What do you find disturbing about virtual reality entertainment, Helena? >>>> And your son is employed! >>>> Seems like your reality is virtually in great shape. :-) >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Helena Worthen >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Please take a look at this disturbing but real phenomenon: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://www.alistdaily.com/media/sony-pictures-kicks-off-vr-entertainment-business-ghostbusters/ >>>>> >>>>> Full disclosure: this guy is my son. How did this happen? >>>>> >>>>> Helena >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Helena Worthen >>>>> 21 San Mateo Road >>>>> Berkeley, CA 94707 >>>>> hworthen@illinois.edu >>>>> Vietnam blog is at: helenaworthen.wordpress.com >>>>> 510-828-2745 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Jul 13 07:27:57 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:27:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Four Theories of Things: Aristotle, Marx, Heidegger, and Peirce Message-ID: <57865021.ca28620a.85e7b.74e4@mx.google.com> Annalisa, I hope this link works. I am sending through a windows 10 phone and so may not come through? http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/679706 Sent from my Windows 10 phone From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Jul 13 08:27:28 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 08:27:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this VR In-Reply-To: References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu>, , , <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu>, , , <0F2FBF25-1610-4275-BEFD-EF59A0A21584@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57865e14.420e620a.33f0a.ffff8b67@mx.google.com> Helen, Wendy, This you ( the writer *speaking* or *giving voice* in the readers ear) is a provocative way or path as a source of meaning potential. If we are attuned to the voice of this *person* (an imaginal tuning into the others voice as person) we are opening into a source with different qualities or characteristics of *mutual* destinations (effects). This 2nd voice whispering in the ear of readers (the reader?s ear) Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Wendy Maples From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Jul 13 13:12:27 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 20:12:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this VR In-Reply-To: <57865e14.420e620a.33f0a.ffff8b67@mx.google.com> References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu>, , , <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu>, , , <0F2FBF25-1610-4275-BEFD-EF59A0A21584@gmail.com> , <57865e14.420e620a.33f0a.ffff8b67@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi all, The discussion of VR is intriguing, and the closest my understanding to it would be digital gaming, though I realize that isn't exactly the same. But! if gaming is of interest, which the thread seemed to turn, then I thought I'd suggest Alexander Galloway who is at NYU, but he seems to be going other places lately. Here's a link to his site and books: http://cultureandcommunication.org/galloway/books In regards to this thread, I was thinking about his book "Gaming" but you all may also be interested in Protocol, and The Interface Effect. I've read Protocol, but haven't laid eyes on The Interface Effect, but that may be of particular interest because: Galloway "builds on the work of Marxist critical theorists such as Frederic Jameson, and new Media scholars such as Wendy Chun..." and "an interface, for [Galloway], becomes a technique for thought: an 'allegorical device' that makes the social world accessible in an age of information." Here is a review of that book: http://www.radicalphilosophy.com/reviews/individual-reviews/the-machine-is-an-ethic It seems to fit with the idea of narrative in VR. One of the ethical questions I have about VR, is whether it is just a matrix of control made to appear that it is offering freedom of exploration. Talk about a wall paper of appearances! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk Wed Jul 13 14:13:26 2016 From: james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk (Ma, James (james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk)) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 21:13:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Four Theories of Things: Aristotle, Marx, Heidegger, and Peirce In-Reply-To: <57865021.ca28620a.85e7b.74e4@mx.google.com> References: <57865021.ca28620a.85e7b.74e4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Here's a PDF version just in case. James ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Lplarry Sent: 13 July 2016 15:27 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Four Theories of Things: Aristotle, Marx, Heidegger, and Peirce Annalisa, I hope this link works. I am sending through a windows 10 phone and so may not come through? http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/679706 Four Theories of Things: Aristotle, Marx, Heidegger, and ... www.journals.uchicago.edu AbstractThis essay is about the relation between meaning and materiality. It offers careful and coherent, albeit noncanonical, readings of particular themes in ... Sent from my Windows 10 phone -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Four theories of things.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 542270 bytes Desc: Four theories of things.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160713/d94431ba/attachment.pdf From glassman.13@osu.edu Wed Jul 13 22:03:09 2016 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 05:03:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this VR In-Reply-To: References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu>, , , <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu>, , , <0F2FBF25-1610-4275-BEFD-EF59A0A21584@gmail.com> , <57865e14.420e620a.33f0a.ffff8b67@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1E122@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> I worry a bit about conflating the idea of dynamic point of view (which is controlled by user/actor) with virtual reality. The idea of user controlled point of view I would say is descended from Ted Nelson and his ideas on hypermedia. It's a really interesting exploration of how media technologies might evolve to give the user control of the narrative. There is a really interesting company called Interlude which I just discovered which is trying to play with this idea, but they really don't have any ties to virtual reality (look up the video of Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone" if you have a chance). Virtual reality I would suggest is more of a technical terms where users are capable of having experiences in an alternate (usually digitally transferred) environment. You can then create scenarios in this new reality while experiencing something completely different in you corporal reality. Some think virtual reality and augmented reality are part of the same continuum, and some don't. I have been struggling with whether you can consider Pokemon Go to be virtual reality (it is and it isn't, right?) There are a number of attempts to combine hypermedia with virtual reality, but from what I can see it is really, really difficult, because we are humans and crave the certainty that comes with an established point of view, that omniscient point of view. The relationship between virtual reality and gaming is also complex. The virtual reality platform I am most familiar with right now is Second Life - but they are adamant they are not a game or a gaming platform. However recently some of my students have shown me new game creating engines which may push that (does World of Warcraft and other mmporgs massive multi=player role playing games (I hope I got that right) push that as well - but the early game designers did not seem to be working within a virtual reality framework. All of this technology and techniques is coming so fast and furious now that it becomes do difficult to sort everything out. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 4:12 PM To: Wendy Maples ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this VR Hi all, The discussion of VR is intriguing, and the closest my understanding to it would be digital gaming, though I realize that isn't exactly the same. But! if gaming is of interest, which the thread seemed to turn, then I thought I'd suggest Alexander Galloway who is at NYU, but he seems to be going other places lately. Here's a link to his site and books: http://cultureandcommunication.org/galloway/books In regards to this thread, I was thinking about his book "Gaming" but you all may also be interested in Protocol, and The Interface Effect. I've read Protocol, but haven't laid eyes on The Interface Effect, but that may be of particular interest because: Galloway "builds on the work of Marxist critical theorists such as Frederic Jameson, and new Media scholars such as Wendy Chun..." and "an interface, for [Galloway], becomes a technique for thought: an 'allegorical device' that makes the social world accessible in an age of information." Here is a review of that book: http://www.radicalphilosophy.com/reviews/individual-reviews/the-machine-is-an-ethic It seems to fit with the idea of narrative in VR. One of the ethical questions I have about VR, is whether it is just a matrix of control made to appear that it is offering freedom of exploration. Talk about a wall paper of appearances! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From nelson.mok@monash.edu Thu Jul 14 04:55:44 2016 From: nelson.mok@monash.edu (Nelson Mok) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 21:55:44 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] IRECE special issue on perezhivanie and subjectivity Message-ID: Hi all, On behalf of the journal of International Research in Early Childhood Education (IRECE), I?m pleased to announce the publication of our first issue of the year, a special issue focusing on perezhivanie and subjectivity, guest edited by Daniel Goulart and myself. This issue grew out of symposia and conversations between research groups within the Australia and Brazil ISCAR regions over the past three years, led by Marilyn Fleer, Nikolai Veresov, and Fernando Gonz?lez Rey. Access the issue here: http://arrow.monash.edu.au/vital/access/manager/Repository?exact=ss_dateNormalized:2016*&collection=monash:131008 Contents: 0. Mok & Goulart - Perezhivanie and subjectivity within a cultural- historical approach: Dialogues between Australia and Brazil [Guest editors? introduction to the special issue] 1. Michell - Finding the ?prism?: Understanding Vygotsky?s perezhivanie as an ontogenetic unit of child consciousness 2. Fleer - An everyday and theoretical reading of perezhivanie for informing research in early childhood education 3. Davis & Dolan - Contagious learning: Drama, experience and perezhivanie 4. March & Fleer - Soperezhivanie: Dramatic events in fairy tales and play 5. Adams - Young expatriate children forming friendships: A cultural-historical perspective 6. Babaeff - Perezhivanija discovered through narrative analysis: Emotive and motivational foci in parent?s diverse heritage language and cultural sustaining in Australia 7. Fleer, Adams, Gunstone, & Hao - Studying the landscape of families and children?s emotional engagement in science across cultural contexts 8. Gonz?lez Rey & Mitj?ns Mart?nez - Perezhivanie: Advancing on its implications for the cultural-historical approach 9. Pati?o & Goulart - Qualitative Epistemology: A scientific platform for the study of subjectivity from a cultural-historical approach 10. Campolina & Mitj?ns Mart?nez - The configuration of social subjectivity in an innovative educational institution in Brazil 11. Bezerra & Costa - Subjectivity in education and health: Research notes on school learning area and physical education in mental health 12. Coelho - Beyond perezhivanie, sense, and language: An empirical study of early childhood teachers? subjective senses 13. Mok - Commentary: Understanding and using perezhivanie and subjectivity Regards, Nelson From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jul 14 11:17:43 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 18:17:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: IRECE special issue on perezhivanie and subjectivity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is great! Thanks Nelson! Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Jul 14 11:23:14 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 18:23:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Does anyone remember Genie? Message-ID: Hello, I saw this in the Guardian, thought it might be of interest: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers "Language and thought are distinct from each other. For many of us, our thoughts are verbally encoded. For Genie, her thoughts were virtually never verbally encoded, but there are many ways to think," said Curtiss, one of the few surviving members of the research team. "She was smart. She could hold a set of pictures so they told a story. She could create all sorts of complex structures from sticks. She had other signs of intelligence. The lights were on." Lots to think about from these circumstances, many angles. Kind regards, Annalisa From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Jul 14 11:21:59 2016 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 18:21:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: IRECE special issue on perezhivanie and subjectivity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nelson, can you tell us more about the relationship between subjectivity and perezhivanie, as you and your authors understand it? Are they synonyms? > On Jul 14, 2016, at 6:55 AM, Nelson Mok wrote: > > Hi all, > > On behalf of the journal of International Research in Early Childhood > Education (IRECE), I?m pleased to announce the publication of our first > issue of the year, a special issue focusing on perezhivanie and > subjectivity, guest edited by Daniel Goulart and myself. > > This issue grew out of symposia and conversations between research groups > within the Australia and Brazil ISCAR regions over the past three years, > led by Marilyn Fleer, Nikolai Veresov, and Fernando Gonz?lez Rey. > > > Access the issue here: > http://arrow.monash.edu.au/vital/access/manager/Repository?exact=ss_dateNormalized:2016*&collection=monash:131008 > > > Contents: > > 0. Mok & Goulart - Perezhivanie and subjectivity within a cultural- > historical approach: Dialogues between Australia and Brazil [Guest editors? > introduction to the special issue] > > 1. Michell - Finding the ?prism?: Understanding Vygotsky?s perezhivanie as > an ontogenetic unit of child consciousness > > 2. Fleer - An everyday and theoretical reading of perezhivanie for > informing research in early childhood education > > 3. Davis & Dolan - Contagious learning: Drama, experience and perezhivanie > > 4. March & Fleer - Soperezhivanie: Dramatic events in fairy tales and play > > 5. Adams - Young expatriate children forming friendships: A > cultural-historical perspective > > 6. Babaeff - Perezhivanija discovered through narrative analysis: Emotive > and motivational foci in parent?s diverse heritage language and cultural > sustaining in Australia > > 7. Fleer, Adams, Gunstone, & Hao - Studying the landscape of families and > children?s emotional engagement in science across cultural contexts > > 8. Gonz?lez Rey & Mitj?ns Mart?nez - Perezhivanie: Advancing on its > implications for the cultural-historical approach > > 9. Pati?o & Goulart - Qualitative Epistemology: A scientific platform for > the study of subjectivity from a cultural-historical approach > > 10. Campolina & Mitj?ns Mart?nez - The configuration of social subjectivity > in an innovative educational institution in Brazil > > 11. Bezerra & Costa - Subjectivity in education and health: Research notes > on school learning area and physical education in mental health > > 12. Coelho - Beyond perezhivanie, sense, and language: An empirical study > of early childhood teachers? subjective senses > > 13. Mok - Commentary: Understanding and using perezhivanie and subjectivity > > > Regards, > > Nelson From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Thu Jul 14 12:18:17 2016 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 15:18:17 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Does anyone remember Genie? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank-you for bringing this to our attention once again Annalisa, A few years ago, I showed a documentary about her life to an undergraduate education class on *Language and Cognition*. I started with the clip linked here..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E and ended up showing the whole thing. The students were just as horrified by some of the researchers as they were by the parents. *Robert Lake* On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello, > > > I saw this in the Guardian, thought it might be of interest: > > > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers > > > "Language and thought are distinct from each other. For many of us, our > thoughts are verbally encoded. For Genie, her thoughts were virtually never > verbally encoded, but there are many ways to think," said Curtiss, one of > the few surviving members of the research team. "She was smart. She could > hold a set of pictures so they told a story. She could create all sorts of > complex structures from sticks. She had other signs of intelligence. The > lights were on." > > > Lots to think about from these circumstances, many angles. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > -- Robert Lake Ed.D. Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John Dewey-*Democracy and Education*,1916, p. 139 From wendy.maples@outlook.com Thu Jul 14 12:31:28 2016 From: wendy.maples@outlook.com (Wendy Maples) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 20:31:28 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this VR In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1E122@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <005801d19e51$6d5ac5a0$481050e0$@edu>, , , , , , <3ED1AC46-4261-44B0-B085-6A465C4F1D85@illinois.edu>, , , , , , <0F2FBF25-1610-4275-BEFD-EF59A0A21584@gmail.com>, , , <57865e14.420e620a.33f0a.ffff8b67@mx.google.com>, , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F903C1E122@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Having been to my first Games conference today, I can, perhaps, add a bit to this conversation. My understanding now is that VR -- at least within the gaming industry -- is seen as something of a sideline, at least for now. The technical (and other) difficulties, vs the 'gains' for an immersive experience (not the same as a 'dynamic point of view'), remain too high. However, in terms of narrative function, the immersion that is enabled by VR is seen as a generally good thing. But the idea of VR enabling the protagonist/1st person POV to determine their own experience (?dynamic POV?) doesn't seem to work -- while there might be visual immersion, there are capacity limits to scope of 'view' and to choice of narrative.And, yes, while VR is currently articulated most prominently to games, I agree that VR is something separate, that is something to do with digitally created alternative 'worlds' that enable an other-to-corporeal experience. Second Life, in this sense might be considered more of a predecessor to what we now think of as VR?It was a stimulating day!W > From: glassman.13@osu.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 05:03:09 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this VR > > I worry a bit about conflating the idea of dynamic point of view (which is controlled by user/actor) with virtual reality. The idea of user controlled point of view I would say is descended from Ted Nelson and his ideas on hypermedia. It's a really interesting exploration of how media technologies might evolve to give the user control of the narrative. There is a really interesting company called Interlude which I just discovered which is trying to play with this idea, but they really don't have any ties to virtual reality (look up the video of Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone" if you have a chance). > > Virtual reality I would suggest is more of a technical terms where users are capable of having experiences in an alternate (usually digitally transferred) environment. You can then create scenarios in this new reality while experiencing something completely different in you corporal reality. Some think virtual reality and augmented reality are part of the same continuum, and some don't. I have been struggling with whether you can consider Pokemon Go to be virtual reality (it is and it isn't, right?) > > There are a number of attempts to combine hypermedia with virtual reality, but from what I can see it is really, really difficult, because we are humans and crave the certainty that comes with an established point of view, that omniscient point of view. > > The relationship between virtual reality and gaming is also complex. The virtual reality platform I am most familiar with right now is Second Life - but they are adamant they are not a game or a gaming platform. However recently some of my students have shown me new game creating engines which may push that (does World of Warcraft and other mmporgs massive multi=player role playing games (I hope I got that right) push that as well - but the early game designers did not seem to be working within a virtual reality framework. > > All of this technology and techniques is coming so fast and furious now that it becomes do difficult to sort everything out. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 4:12 PM > To: Wendy Maples ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Semioticians, parse this VR > > > Hi all, > > The discussion of VR is intriguing, and the closest my understanding to it would be digital gaming, though I realize that isn't exactly the same. > But! if gaming is of interest, which the thread seemed to turn, then I thought I'd suggest Alexander Galloway who is at NYU, but he seems to be going other places lately. > Here's a link to his site and books: > http://cultureandcommunication.org/galloway/books > > In regards to this thread, I was thinking about his book "Gaming" but you all may also be interested in Protocol, and The Interface Effect. I've read Protocol, but haven't laid eyes on The Interface Effect, but that may be of particular interest because: Galloway "builds on the work of Marxist critical theorists such as Frederic Jameson, and new Media scholars such as Wendy Chun..." and "an interface, for [Galloway], becomes a technique for thought: an 'allegorical device' that makes the social world accessible in an age of information." > Here is a review of that book: > http://www.radicalphilosophy.com/reviews/individual-reviews/the-machine-is-an-ethic > > It seems to fit with the idea of narrative in VR. > > One of the ethical questions I have about VR, is whether it is just a matrix of control made to appear that it is offering freedom of exploration. Talk about a wall paper of appearances! > :) > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From avisr@netspace.net.au Thu Jul 14 15:43:12 2016 From: avisr@netspace.net.au (Avis Ridgway) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 08:43:12 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: IRECE special issue on perezhivanie and subjectivity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02DB722A-965A-41ED-AC17-D014A982B134@netspace.net.au> THANKYOU Nelson and IRECE team. This publication special edition is very welcome indeed. Best wishes Avis Ridgway PhD Sent from my iPhone > On 14 Jul 2016, at 9:55 PM, Nelson Mok wrote: > > Hi all, > > On behalf of the journal of International Research in Early Childhood > Education (IRECE), I?m pleased to announce the publication of our first > issue of the year, a special issue focusing on perezhivanie and > subjectivity, guest edited by Daniel Goulart and myself. > > This issue grew out of symposia and conversations between research groups > within the Australia and Brazil ISCAR regions over the past three years, > led by Marilyn Fleer, Nikolai Veresov, and Fernando Gonz?lez Rey. > > > Access the issue here: > http://arrow.monash.edu.au/vital/access/manager/Repository?exact=ss_dateNormalized:2016*&collection=monash:131008 > > > Contents: > > 0. Mok & Goulart - Perezhivanie and subjectivity within a cultural- > historical approach: Dialogues between Australia and Brazil [Guest editors? > introduction to the special issue] > > 1. Michell - Finding the ?prism?: Understanding Vygotsky?s perezhivanie as > an ontogenetic unit of child consciousness > > 2. Fleer - An everyday and theoretical reading of perezhivanie for > informing research in early childhood education > > 3. Davis & Dolan - Contagious learning: Drama, experience and perezhivanie > > 4. March & Fleer - Soperezhivanie: Dramatic events in fairy tales and play > > 5. Adams - Young expatriate children forming friendships: A > cultural-historical perspective > > 6. Babaeff - Perezhivanija discovered through narrative analysis: Emotive > and motivational foci in parent?s diverse heritage language and cultural > sustaining in Australia > > 7. Fleer, Adams, Gunstone, & Hao - Studying the landscape of families and > children?s emotional engagement in science across cultural contexts > > 8. Gonz?lez Rey & Mitj?ns Mart?nez - Perezhivanie: Advancing on its > implications for the cultural-historical approach > > 9. Pati?o & Goulart - Qualitative Epistemology: A scientific platform for > the study of subjectivity from a cultural-historical approach > > 10. Campolina & Mitj?ns Mart?nez - The configuration of social subjectivity > in an innovative educational institution in Brazil > > 11. Bezerra & Costa - Subjectivity in education and health: Research notes > on school learning area and physical education in mental health > > 12. Coelho - Beyond perezhivanie, sense, and language: An empirical study > of early childhood teachers? subjective senses > > 13. Mok - Commentary: Understanding and using perezhivanie and subjectivity > > > Regards, > > Nelson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jul 14 16:03:33 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 08:03:33 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [AAA_ACYIG] Call for papers, Special Issue in Contemporary Social Science In-Reply-To: <237DBE1B-8237-47EF-9ADB-8A03D3C97CE2@sussex.ac.uk> References: <237DBE1B-8237-47EF-9ADB-8A03D3C97CE2@sussex.ac.uk> Message-ID: I thought this call for papers on "activism across the life course" sounded like it might be of interest to many of you. -greg ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sevasti-Melissa Nolas Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 12:13 AM Subject: [AAA_ACYIG] Call for papers, Special Issue in Contemporary Social Science To: "Aaa_acyig@binhost.com" ? With apologies for cross-posting, please circulate widely -- CALL FOR PAPERS Special Issue of *Contemporary Social Science* *Political activism across the life-course.* Papers are invited that explore how citizens participate in society. What leads them to participate, and what are the consequences of their participation? These are important policy and practice relevant questions about political activism, defined as responding to matters of common concern. Many social science disciplines have explored these issues including social psychologists, political scientists, sociologists and social anthropologists. Central to these explorations is the question of how contemporary politics mark lives and how lives mark contemporary politics. This covers a range of concerns from health to education, environment to poverty, migration to domestic violence, gender identities to political conflict. *In particular, we welcome studies that examine political activism across the life-course*. A range of research methods are welcomed that include action research, biographical interviews, case study and ethnographic research, surveys and visual methods approaches. Well-reasoned, empirically based essays are also welcome. Manuscripts should follow the usual instructions for electronic submission of papers to Contemporary Social Science. Authors should indicate that they wish the manuscript to be reviewed for inclusion in the special issue. The Editors of this issue would be happy to review plans for papers in advance of their receipt. All papers will be peer reviewed. The closing date for submitting papers is 31st October 2016. Corresponding guest editor: Sevasti-Melissa Nolas, University of Sussex. S.Nolas@sussex.ac.uk Co-Editors: Christos Varvantakis, University of Sussex. Vinnarsan Aruldoss, University of Sussex. -- Dr Sevasti-Melissa Nolas Senior Lecturer/Principal Investigator, Connectors Study Department of Social Work & Centre for Innovation and Research in Childhood & Youth (CIRCY) , University of Sussex Email: S.Nolas@sussex.ac.uk | Tel: 01273 678569 / 07989 330704 | Twitter: @smnolas | Skype: sevasti-melissa_nolas Latest papers: Nolas, S-M., Varvantakis, C. & Aruldoss, V. (2016) ?(Im)possible conversations? Activism, childhood and everyday life ?, Journal of Social and Political Psychology, 4(1), pp. 252-265. (Open Access). Sanders-McDonagh, E., Neville, L. & Nolas, S-M. (2016) ?from pillar to post: understanding the victimization of women and children who experience domestic violence in an age of austerity ?, Feminist Review, 112, pp. 60-76. Full evaluation report here . _______________________________________________ American Anthropological Association's Anthropology of Children and Youth Interest Group Listserv. AAA_ACYIG@binhost.com To view the message archives, please visit: https://lists.capalon.com/pipermail/aaa_acyig/ For help with this list, please contact the List Administrator acyig.aaa AT gmail DOT com You may also manage your own subscription preferences at: https://lists.capalon.com/lists/listinfo/aaa_acyig Note: To stop receiving email from this list, please set your account to DISABLED. AAA_ACYIG mailing list AAA_ACYIG@binhost.com https://lists.capalon.com/lists/listinfo/aaa_acyig -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dangthikimanh@gmail.com Thu Jul 14 16:19:34 2016 From: dangthikimanh@gmail.com (dangthikimanh@gmail.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 09:19:34 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: IRECE special issue on perezhivanie and subjectivity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Nelson, Thanks very much for sharing. It's great to see the fruition of the symposium and dialogues on this highly important and interesting topic. Looking forward to reading it with great interest. Kind regards, Kim Sent from my iPhone > On 14 Jul 2016, at 9:55 pm, Nelson Mok wrote: > > Hi all, > > On behalf of the journal of International Research in Early Childhood > Education (IRECE), I?m pleased to announce the publication of our first > issue of the year, a special issue focusing on perezhivanie and > subjectivity, guest edited by Daniel Goulart and myself. > > This issue grew out of symposia and conversations between research groups > within the Australia and Brazil ISCAR regions over the past three years, > led by Marilyn Fleer, Nikolai Veresov, and Fernando Gonz?lez Rey. > > > Access the issue here: > http://arrow.monash.edu.au/vital/access/manager/Repository?exact=ss_dateNormalized:2016*&collection=monash:131008 > > > Contents: > > 0. Mok & Goulart - Perezhivanie and subjectivity within a cultural- > historical approach: Dialogues between Australia and Brazil [Guest editors? > introduction to the special issue] > > 1. Michell - Finding the ?prism?: Understanding Vygotsky?s perezhivanie as > an ontogenetic unit of child consciousness > > 2. Fleer - An everyday and theoretical reading of perezhivanie for > informing research in early childhood education > > 3. Davis & Dolan - Contagious learning: Drama, experience and perezhivanie > > 4. March & Fleer - Soperezhivanie: Dramatic events in fairy tales and play > > 5. Adams - Young expatriate children forming friendships: A > cultural-historical perspective > > 6. Babaeff - Perezhivanija discovered through narrative analysis: Emotive > and motivational foci in parent?s diverse heritage language and cultural > sustaining in Australia > > 7. Fleer, Adams, Gunstone, & Hao - Studying the landscape of families and > children?s emotional engagement in science across cultural contexts > > 8. Gonz?lez Rey & Mitj?ns Mart?nez - Perezhivanie: Advancing on its > implications for the cultural-historical approach > > 9. Pati?o & Goulart - Qualitative Epistemology: A scientific platform for > the study of subjectivity from a cultural-historical approach > > 10. Campolina & Mitj?ns Mart?nez - The configuration of social subjectivity > in an innovative educational institution in Brazil > > 11. Bezerra & Costa - Subjectivity in education and health: Research notes > on school learning area and physical education in mental health > > 12. Coelho - Beyond perezhivanie, sense, and language: An empirical study > of early childhood teachers? subjective senses > > 13. Mok - Commentary: Understanding and using perezhivanie and subjectivity > > > Regards, > > Nelson From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Thu Jul 14 16:24:54 2016 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 08:24:54 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: IRECE special issue on perezhivanie and subjectivity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just got my paper o perezhivanie "Perezhivanie and Role-Playing Games" accepted on Culture & Psychology also. As soon as I can I will make it available. Wagner On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 8:19 AM, wrote: > Hi Nelson, > > Thanks very much for sharing. It's great to see the fruition of the > symposium and dialogues on this highly important and interesting topic. > Looking forward to reading it with great interest. > > Kind regards, > > Kim > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 14 Jul 2016, at 9:55 pm, Nelson Mok wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > On behalf of the journal of International Research in Early Childhood > > Education (IRECE), I?m pleased to announce the publication of our first > > issue of the year, a special issue focusing on perezhivanie and > > subjectivity, guest edited by Daniel Goulart and myself. > > > > This issue grew out of symposia and conversations between research groups > > within the Australia and Brazil ISCAR regions over the past three years, > > led by Marilyn Fleer, Nikolai Veresov, and Fernando Gonz?lez Rey. > > > > > > Access the issue here: > > > http://arrow.monash.edu.au/vital/access/manager/Repository?exact=ss_dateNormalized:2016*&collection=monash:131008 > > > > > > Contents: > > > > 0. Mok & Goulart - Perezhivanie and subjectivity within a cultural- > > historical approach: Dialogues between Australia and Brazil [Guest > editors? > > introduction to the special issue] > > > > 1. Michell - Finding the ?prism?: Understanding Vygotsky?s perezhivanie > as > > an ontogenetic unit of child consciousness > > > > 2. Fleer - An everyday and theoretical reading of perezhivanie for > > informing research in early childhood education > > > > 3. Davis & Dolan - Contagious learning: Drama, experience and > perezhivanie > > > > 4. March & Fleer - Soperezhivanie: Dramatic events in fairy tales and > play > > > > 5. Adams - Young expatriate children forming friendships: A > > cultural-historical perspective > > > > 6. Babaeff - Perezhivanija discovered through narrative analysis: Emotive > > and motivational foci in parent?s diverse heritage language and cultural > > sustaining in Australia > > > > 7. Fleer, Adams, Gunstone, & Hao - Studying the landscape of families and > > children?s emotional engagement in science across cultural contexts > > > > 8. Gonz?lez Rey & Mitj?ns Mart?nez - Perezhivanie: Advancing on its > > implications for the cultural-historical approach > > > > 9. Pati?o & Goulart - Qualitative Epistemology: A scientific platform for > > the study of subjectivity from a cultural-historical approach > > > > 10. Campolina & Mitj?ns Mart?nez - The configuration of social > subjectivity > > in an innovative educational institution in Brazil > > > > 11. Bezerra & Costa - Subjectivity in education and health: Research > notes > > on school learning area and physical education in mental health > > > > 12. Coelho - Beyond perezhivanie, sense, and language: An empirical study > > of early childhood teachers? subjective senses > > > > 13. Mok - Commentary: Understanding and using perezhivanie and > subjectivity > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Nelson > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jul 15 04:47:53 2016 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 20:47:53 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Does anyone remember Genie? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's a very puzzling article, for a couple of reasons. First of all, there isn't much explanation of WHY Genie was so fascinating to linguists. Secondly, there isn't any explanation of WHY she suddenly became uninteresting to linguists. Finally, there is no discussion of the ethics of the research that was done on Genie after her discovery, which is really the explanation of why Los Angeles County is so reluctant to allow any researchers to pursue her today. As I understand it, Genie was fascinating to linguists because she seemed to offer a natural experimental test of Lenneberg's "critical period" hypothesis, which would be utterly unethical under any other conditions. This hypothesis was extremely important in America, which had gone lock stock and barrell for the innateness theory of language--the reason why people could not learn second languages adequately was that there was a "critical period" for acquisition which functioned rather like the critical period of child sexuality to which it mysteriously coincided. If something happened to mar development during this period you were marked for life. As I understand it, Genie suddenly become uninteresting to linguists because it became pretty clear that Genie's agrammaticism had organic origins and was not simply due to the deprivation of input. The article alludes to this in mentioning the "bunny walk" and also the two rows of teeth, but it apparently went much further than that, and it probably explains why Genie was treated different from her brother. If Genie was brain damaged, then she could not be a natural experiment to prove or disprove Lenneberg's hypothesis, because there was an obvious organic explanation for her lack of language. Finally, as I understand it, the ethics of Genie's post-discovery treatment was highly dubious. If you or I discovered a child like Genie our first response would probably be to figure out some way of trying to get her into a classroom to see if she could lead a normal life at school with children her own age. That wasn't done, because linguists wanted to continue the experiment--first of all to subject her to a battery of highly invasive tests and secondly to see how she responded to various kinds of input under controlled conditions. Mainstreaming Genie would destroy her value as a research subject, leaving us nothing but her value as a human being. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > Thank-you for bringing this to our attention once again Annalisa, > A few years ago, I showed a documentary about her life to an undergraduate > education class on *Language and Cognition*. I started with the clip > linked > here..... > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > and ended up showing the whole thing. The students were just as > horrified by some of the researchers as they were by the parents. > > *Robert Lake* > > On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > > I saw this in the Guardian, thought it might be of interest: > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers > > > > > > "Language and thought are distinct from each other. For many of us, our > > thoughts are verbally encoded. For Genie, her thoughts were virtually > never > > verbally encoded, but there are many ways to think," said Curtiss, one of > > the few surviving members of the research team. "She was smart. She could > > hold a set of pictures so they told a story. She could create all sorts > of > > complex structures from sticks. She had other signs of intelligence. The > > lights were on." > > > > > > Lots to think about from these circumstances, many angles. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > -- > Robert Lake Ed.D. > Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must be > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > Dewey-*Democracy > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Fri Jul 15 05:04:54 2016 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 12:04:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Does anyone remember Genie? Message-ID: It is also important to remember that Genie was not an ideal victim for this sort of 'forbidden experiment' study because she appears to have experienced relatively 'normal' interaction with her mother for the first 9 months of her life. If your focus is narrowed to language develop.ent this may seem trivial but if your focus is on interaction- it certainly isn't. Apart from anything else, those early Mo the would certainly affect Genie's understanding of what she was then subjected to (her perezhivanie). At least to some degree she is likely to have been able to know what she was missing. All the best, Rod On 15 Jul 2016 12:50 pm, David Kellogg wrote: It's a very puzzling article, for a couple of reasons. First of all, there isn't much explanation of WHY Genie was so fascinating to linguists. Secondly, there isn't any explanation of WHY she suddenly became uninteresting to linguists. Finally, there is no discussion of the ethics of the research that was done on Genie after her discovery, which is really the explanation of why Los Angeles County is so reluctant to allow any researchers to pursue her today. As I understand it, Genie was fascinating to linguists because she seemed to offer a natural experimental test of Lenneberg's "critical period" hypothesis, which would be utterly unethical under any other conditions. This hypothesis was extremely important in America, which had gone lock stock and barrell for the innateness theory of language--the reason why people could not learn second languages adequately was that there was a "critical period" for acquisition which functioned rather like the critical period of child sexuality to which it mysteriously coincided. If something happened to mar development during this period you were marked for life. As I understand it, Genie suddenly become uninteresting to linguists because it became pretty clear that Genie's agrammaticism had organic origins and was not simply due to the deprivation of input. The article alludes to this in mentioning the "bunny walk" and also the two rows of teeth, but it apparently went much further than that, and it probably explains why Genie was treated different from her brother. If Genie was brain damaged, then she could not be a natural experiment to prove or disprove Lenneberg's hypothesis, because there was an obvious organic explanation for her lack of language. Finally, as I understand it, the ethics of Genie's post-discovery treatment was highly dubious. If you or I discovered a child like Genie our first response would probably be to figure out some way of trying to get her into a classroom to see if she could lead a normal life at school with children her own age. That wasn't done, because linguists wanted to continue the experiment--first of all to subject her to a battery of highly invasive tests and secondly to see how she responded to various kinds of input under controlled conditions. Mainstreaming Genie would destroy her value as a research subject, leaving us nothing but her value as a human being. David Kellogg Macquarie University On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > Thank-you for bringing this to our attention once again Annalisa, > A few years ago, I showed a documentary about her life to an undergraduate > education class on *Language and Cognition*. I started with the clip > linked > here..... > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > and ended up showing the whole thing. The students were just as > horrified by some of the researchers as they were by the parents. > > *Robert Lake* > > On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > > I saw this in the Guardian, thought it might be of interest: > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers > > > > > > "Language and thought are distinct from each other. For many of us, our > > thoughts are verbally encoded. For Genie, her thoughts were virtually > never > > verbally encoded, but there are many ways to think," said Curtiss, one of > > the few surviving members of the research team. "She was smart. She could > > hold a set of pictures so they told a story. She could create all sorts > of > > complex structures from sticks. She had other signs of intelligence. The > > lights were on." > > > > > > Lots to think about from these circumstances, many angles. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > -- > Robert Lake Ed.D. > Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460 > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > Webpage: https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy must be > born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* John > Dewey-*Democracy > and Education*,1916, p. 139 > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Fri Jul 15 07:18:21 2016 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 10:18:21 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Wainwright.pdf Message-ID: ?article by Michael wainwright assessing my critique, "the soulless souls of black folk," of w.e.b du bois's notion of double consciousness. ? Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Wainwright.pdf Type: null Size: 185146 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160715/6d7b6262/attachment-0001.pl From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sat Jul 16 18:59:18 2016 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 18:59:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <6C3095A9-DC02-4019-8B5D-3515BD2D8036@gmail.com> OK ? from Andy?s link: "When we know the thing and the laws of reflection of light, we can always explain, predict, elicit, and change the phantom.? How about this: the thing is what the teacher wants the student to learn. By understanding how people learn (the laws of reflection of light), the teacher can explain, predict, elicit and change what the student learns (the phantom). I like thinking of what the learner learns as a phantom. It certainly feels like a phantom at the beginning of a class and gets more flesh on it as the weeks go by, but is still a phantom at the end of the semester, although hopefully a different-looking phantom. Helena > On Jul 2, 2016, at 10:33 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1387 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Andy Blunden > http://home.mira.net/~andy > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > On 3/07/2016 3:19 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: >> M... >> >> And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? >> >> Greg >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>> >>> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), and no god either. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg, >>>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or orienting towards (mind) as an object. >>>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. >>>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>> >>>> From: Greg Thompson >>> >> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jul 16 20:43:19 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 20:43:19 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <6C3095A9-DC02-4019-8B5D-3515BD2D8036@gmail.com> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> <6C3095A9-DC02-4019-8B5D-3515BD2D8036@gmail.com> Message-ID: <578aff0d.c817620a.d0f2d.55a0@mx.google.com> Helena this phantom that is emerging at the origin of the learning process (can we describe this process as potential?) this phantom may move into being a concrete *thing* but then it may return to being a phantom?. In the IRECE Journal one of the articles (Qualitative Epistemology) references Gonzales Rey who was inspired by Vygotsky and Rubinstein. Here is his description of what may occur after objective objects/elements which come into being at a later turn in the spiral than you are referencing, then *disappear*. The objects which have defined a new order actually disappear, but in the imaginary *remain*, continuing to subsidize the subjective *sense* of that disappearing order. Can we call this subjective imaginary a *phantom* that continues to *legitimize* this imaginary sense of objective elements when there is actually no remaining objective elements (which have disappeared). In Rey?s own words; ?The objective elements that produce the revolutionary spirit can be killed by the processes of institutionalization and bureaucratization, but people still (feel) part of the revolution ? for a few generations. Note, this phenomena is inter/generational in duration. This seems to be an image of psyche emerging from phantom appearances, becoming existent and then becoming symbolized but at some moment the revolutionary spirit *disappears* and what remains are imaginary phantoms. Adding my own reflections are these revolutionary spirits that have disappeared, are they *dormant* or *dead*. Can their spirit be *reawakened* or is that a phantom? Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Helena Worthen From nelson.mok@monash.edu Sun Jul 17 01:54:51 2016 From: nelson.mok@monash.edu (Nelson Mok) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 18:54:51 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: IRECE special issue on perezhivanie and subjectivity Message-ID: Martin, I don?t use the term nor concept of ?subjectivity? in my own work, so my knowledge is only cursory at best, but i?ll have a go at answering your question as best I can. Perhaps others with more expertise in this area can weigh in? Although the contributing authors have drawn on each others work in one way or another (either directly or through our discussions), there are subtle differences?comparing the authors from Australia and those from Brazil?in the way terms are used and understood. The best person to read is probably Fernando Gonz?lez Rey; his 2009 article in Outlines (?Historical relevance of Vygotsky's work: Its significance for a new approach to the problem of subjectivity in psychology?) puts the two terms in the same discussion (as does a lot of his recent work in Spanish and Portuguese). He does the same in his contribution to this issue and his students and colleagues draw on his work heavily. So too, does Marilyn Fleer, who builds on the term with ?double subjectivity? in her research into children?s play?consequently, so too do her students and colleagues. You can see examples of both kinds of discussions in this issue. I understand the study of subjectivity to be the question of ?what is the self? in psychological terms. Who is the subject? The traditional essentiallist conception is that an individual possesses this subjectivity that, if only we had the right tools, we could adequately access and study?it is understood as a kind of cognitive function. Gonz?lez Rey believes Vygotsky to be approaching this issue in his later years, when he begins writing about sense (in Thinking and Speech) and perezhivanie (in ?The problem of the environment?, and ?The crisis at age seven?). These terms are understood to represent a new understanding of the mind (Vygotsky?s ?second moment?) that Vygotsky begun sometime before 1932. I say he *approached* this issue, because Gonz?lez Rey argues that this was never completed: the terms were never adequately integrated into the rest of his theoretical framework. So, perezhivanie?the discussion has come up on this mailing list several times in the past decade, but for now, let?s just call it the lived experience of a situation. Importantly, it recognises that there is both something to be experienced and someone doing the experiencing. And so two people in the same situation can experience it differently; the same person in the same situation but at different times can experience it differently; and the same person in different situations of course experiences them differently. These are banal observations, but take on more significance in the context of discussing development, and once you fully engage with the epistemological and theoretical consequences of this conceptualisation. Gonz?lez Rey argues that the concepts of sense and perezhivanie can be used to support a new, cultural-historical, understanding of subjectivity. The argument is that, rather than being an inherent quality of a person, subjectivity is instead a psychological reality that emerges from one?s lived experience (perezhivanie) of their environment at each moment and is thus a kind of dynamic expression of this system. In the same way, things like fantasy and imagination are understood not as cognitive functions in themselves, but emergent products of certain concrete configurations of the individual and their environment. That's about all I know. The issue of subjectivity is a broader project than that of perezhivanie, so no, not synonymous. I could be way way off, however, so don't take my word for it. - Nelson > Nelson, can you tell us more about the relationship between subjectivity and perezhivanie, as you and your authors understand it? Are they synonyms? From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sun Jul 17 09:28:25 2016 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:28:25 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <578aff0d.c817620a.d0f2d.55a0@mx.google.com> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> <6C3095A9-DC02-4019-8B5D-3515BD2D8036@gmail.com> <578aff0d.c817620a.d0f2d.55a0@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <267242DC-F96C-4040-8577-963E3958D1CD@gmail.com> Let me see if I understand what you?re saying here: We?re talking here about unlearning, not just learning, right? (I have always been intrigued by unlearning, and have wondered why we don?t talk much about it.) So, using my own background (labor relations) to put in concrete examples of what I think you?re describing: An ?objective element" comes into being after some time passes (example: a struggle takes place, followed by an election, and there is new leadership which makes new conditions possible). But after some more time passes, people take these new conditions for granted (example: at City College of San Francisco, big union struggles in the 1990s produced much improved conditions for faculty; people took these for granted, including union leaders, and the union became de-mobilized and unprepared for changes in the economy after 2000 and attacks which were essentially efforts to privatize the college). Faculty continued to have ?revolutionary spirit? and thought of themselves as in control of their work, but the objective elements had disappeared. thus they were vulnerable to the 2012 attempt by the ACCJC (accreditation commission) to shut the whole place down. The good news is that the phantom of activism has had its flesh put back on through a major effort of internal organizing (and support from student and citizens coalition work) and the faculty union has just last week pulled off forcing the administration to agree to a decent contract ? but they had to build towards a one-day strike in April, and the credible threat of an open-ended strike in the fall, in order to force this to happen. I think that the image of the candle, the mirror, and the reflection, are a nifty way to think about what goes on in the teacher (or organizer?s) imagination (another word would be ?prolepsis.) Then you add the notion of the phantom that can become more or less realized ? both directions is important! - and you can talk about time passing and even history. Fun ? Helena > On Jul 16, 2016, at 8:43 PM, Lplarry wrote: > > Helena this phantom that is emerging at the origin of the learning process (can we describe this process as potential?) this phantom may move into being a concrete *thing* but then it may return to being a phantom?. > > In the IRECE Journal one of the articles (Qualitative Epistemology) references Gonzales Rey who was inspired by Vygotsky and Rubinstein. Here is his description of what may occur after objective objects/elements which come into being at a later turn in the spiral than you are referencing, then *disappear*. The objects which have defined a new order actually disappear, but in the imaginary *remain*, continuing to subsidize the subjective *sense* of that disappearing order. > Can we call this subjective imaginary a *phantom* that continues to *legitimize* this imaginary sense of objective elements when there is actually no remaining objective elements (which have disappeared). > In Rey?s own words; ?The objective elements that produce the revolutionary spirit can be killed by the processes of institutionalization and bureaucratization, but people still (feel) part of the revolution ? for a few generations. > Note, this phenomena is inter/generational in duration. > > This seems to be an image of psyche emerging from phantom appearances, becoming existent and then becoming symbolized but at some moment the revolutionary spirit *disappears* and what remains are imaginary phantoms. > > Adding my own reflections are these revolutionary spirits that have disappeared, are they *dormant* or *dead*. Can their spirit be *reawakened* or is that a phantom? > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Helena Worthen > Sent: July 16, 2016 7:02 PM > To: ablunden@mira.net ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf > > OK ? from Andy?s link: > > "When we know the thing and the laws of reflection of light, we can always explain, predict, elicit, and change the phantom.? > > How about this: the thing is what the teacher wants the student to learn. By understanding how people learn (the laws of reflection of light), the teacher can explain, predict, elicit and change what the student learns (the phantom). > > I like thinking of what the learner learns as a phantom. It certainly feels like a phantom at the beginning of a class and gets more flesh on it as the weeks go by, but is still a phantom at the end of the semester, although hopefully a different-looking phantom. > > Helena > > > On Jul 2, 2016, at 10:33 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1387 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Andy Blunden > > http://home.mira.net/~andy > > http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making > > On 3/07/2016 3:19 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > >> M... > >> > >> And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? > >> > >> Greg > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >>> > >>> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), and no god either. > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Greg, > >>>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or orienting towards (mind) as an object. > >>>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. > >>>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>>> > >>>> From: Greg Thompson > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jul 17 09:38:00 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:38:00 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: IRECE special issue on perezhivanie and subjectivity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <578bb49d.d120620a.7aea2.32e7@mx.google.com> Nelson, Martin, Here is an example from the Outlines paper (pdf is free if you google the paper). Gonzales Rey is referring to Vygotsky?s article (Defect and Compensation, 1924). Gonzales reads this article to say the psychology of blindness did not result from the objective state of blindness. On the contrary, the psychology of blindness represented a way (a path) to overcome the restraints of blindness. What is *implicit* in Vygotsky?s statement concerning blindness is that real and objective conditions do NOT become psychological drives *for* their objective consequences, these conditions become psychological drives as a result of the *alternatives* created by blind people in dealing with the consequences of their objective blindness. These *psychical alternatives* (should be ? an ethical value) identified as *subjective* because these alternatives resulted from the functioning of the mind *as a whole*. The difference between subjectivity and other *forms of objectivity* is an ontological difference. This concrete example was helpful for me to understand Gonzales Rey?s approach guiding us to interpreting the concept of subjectivity as *psyche* (as a whole) Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Nelson Mok From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sun Jul 17 09:39:15 2016 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:39:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] A great blog about teaching math in East Timor In-Reply-To: <578aff0d.c817620a.d0f2d.55a0@mx.google.com> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> <6C3095A9-DC02-4019-8B5D-3515BD2D8036@gmail.com> <578aff0d.c817620a.d0f2d.55a0@mx.google.com> Message-ID: A friend just sent this link to me: it?s a gorgeous blog about teaching math in East Timor, with lots of pictures and how-to. https://timorpratika.wordpress.com Helena From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jul 17 09:49:33 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:49:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <267242DC-F96C-4040-8577-963E3958D1CD@gmail.com> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> <6C3095A9-DC02-4019-8B5D-3515BD2D8036@gmail.com> <578aff0d.c817620a.d0f2d.55a0@mx.google.com> <267242DC-F96C-4040-8577-963E3958D1CD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <578bb752.4583620a.84ddb.1228@mx.google.com> Yes, I do think this captures the sense of the way (path, orientation) conveyed through my reading of the IRECE article. (Qualitative Epistemology) Your expression *fun* generates a lightness of being as we move through these spirals. I posted a reflection on subjectivity as a concept expressing the (way) we are humanly responding to actuality with *psychical alternatives*. I hope this continues to generate sense and meaning *potential* which can sometimes be approached with this lightness of being fun Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Helena Worthen From ewall@umich.edu Sun Jul 17 17:22:31 2016 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 19:22:31 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <6C3095A9-DC02-4019-8B5D-3515BD2D8036@gmail.com> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> <6C3095A9-DC02-4019-8B5D-3515BD2D8036@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12E6E08E-DF43-4ECC-ACDD-F567DB22F7E5@umich.edu> It might be interesting to think about what the illumination corresponds to (although one can push metaphor top far). > On Jul 16, 2016, at 8:59 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > > OK ? from Andy?s link: > > "When we know the thing and the laws of reflection of light, we can always explain, predict, elicit, and change the phantom.? > > How about this: the thing is what the teacher wants the student to learn. By understanding how people learn (the laws of reflection of light), the teacher can explain, predict, elicit and change what the student learns (the phantom). > > I like thinking of what the learner learns as a phantom. It certainly feels like a phantom at the beginning of a class and gets more flesh on it as the weeks go by, but is still a phantom at the end of the semester, although hopefully a different-looking phantom. > > Helena > >> On Jul 2, 2016, at 10:33 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1387 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden >> http://home.mira.net/~andy >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> On 3/07/2016 3:19 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: >>> M... >>> >>> And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror metaphor? >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >>>> >>>> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear that I?m being inconsistent introducing gods after being so hard on Michael for invoking intelligent design. But, while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the ontology of Western folk psychology, I also want to insist that the ontology of a scientific psychology has to be consistent and non-contradictory, which means it must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology (except as an appearance to be explained, like a candle seemingly ?behind? a mirror), and no god either. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg, >>>>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or orienting towards (mind) as an object. >>>>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as object. >>>>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular traditions. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>>>> >>>>> From: Greg Thompson >>>> >>> >>> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Jul 17 17:44:35 2016 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:44:35 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf In-Reply-To: <267242DC-F96C-4040-8577-963E3958D1CD@gmail.com> References: <5771b843.a5dc420a.c456e.7e41@mx.google.com> <37725E0B-1601-4FAA-AC72-9155CD5C7770@uniandes.edu.co> <5f15bee9-53c0-d20a-60df-71fa94e6f0d1@mira.net> <1D93A876-CA75-4EB0-89C8-EE791636971B@uniandes.edu.co> <1531227C-233C-4931-B3CA-BA7AE1F45BB1@uniandes.edu.co> <57786fd9.881d620a.59195.2269@mx.google.com> <22A2AB86-31BC-4823-A4A6-8DC4DDDBA385@uniandes.edu.co> <6C3095A9-DC02-4019-8B5D-3515BD2D8036@gmail.com> <578aff0d.c817620a.d0f2d.55a0@mx.google.com> <267242DC-F96C-4040-8577-963E3958D1CD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <415d7c98-7f55-39c8-f3dc-38002379d030@mira.net> The mirror metaphor, as used by Vygotsky, is very good for conveying the phantasmic nature of objects of thought, but the defect with it as a metaphor is that it does not well convey the fact that these thought-objects are also effective (and in that specific sense act-ual) in orienting objective practice. The mirror metaphor needs to be made more specific, such as with the rear-vision mirror of a car, where the driver can reliably use the image to reverse, thereby changing what is reflected, knowing all the while that there is nothing "in" or behind the mirror (something my cat has never understood). Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making On 18/07/2016 2:28 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Let me see if I understand what you?re saying here: > > We?re talking here about unlearning, not just learning, > right? (I have always been intrigued by unlearning, and > have wondered why we don?t talk much about it.) So, using > my own background (labor relations) to put in concrete > examples of what I think you?re describing: An ?objective > element" comes into being after some time passes (example: > a struggle takes place, followed by an election, and there > is new leadership which makes new conditions possible). > But after some more time passes, people take these new > conditions for granted (example: at City College of San > Francisco, big union struggles in the 1990s produced much > improved conditions for faculty; people took these for > granted, including union leaders, and the union became > de-mobilized and unprepared for changes in the economy > after 2000 and attacks which were essentially efforts to > privatize the college). Faculty continued to have > ?revolutionary spirit? and thought of themselves as in > control of their work, but the objective elements had > disappeared. thus they were vulnerable to the 2012 attempt > by the ACCJC (accreditation commission) to shut the whole > place down. The good news is that the phantom of activism > has had its flesh put back on through a major effort of > internal organizing (and support from student and citizens > coalition work) and the faculty union has just last week > pulled off forcing the administration to agree to a decent > contract ? but they had to build towards a one-day strike > in April, and the credible threat of an open-ended strike > in the fall, in order to force this to happen. > > I think that the image of the candle, the mirror, and the > reflection, are a nifty way to think about what goes on in > the teacher (or organizer?s) imagination (another word > would be ?prolepsis.) Then you add the notion of the > phantom that can become more or less realized ? both > directions is important! - and you can talk about time > passing and even history. > > Fun ? Helena > > >> On Jul 16, 2016, at 8:43 PM, Lplarry >> > wrote: >> >> Helena this phantom that is emerging at the origin of >> the learning process (can we describe this process as >> potential?) this phantom may move into being a concrete >> **thing** but then it may return to being a phantom?. >> >> In the IRECE Journal one of the articles (Qualitative >> Epistemology) references Gonzales Rey who was inspired by >> Vygotsky and Rubinstein. Here is his description of what >> may occur after objective objects/elements which come >> into being at a later turn in the spiral than you are >> referencing, then **disappear**. The objects which have >> defined a new order actually disappear, but in the >> imaginary **remain**, continuing to subsidize the >> subjective **sense** of that disappearing order. >> >> Can we call this subjective imaginary a **phantom** that >> continues to **legitimize** this imaginary sense of >> objective elements when there is actually no remaining >> objective elements (which have disappeared). >> >> In Rey?s own words; ?The objective elements that produce >> the revolutionary spirit can be killed by the processes >> of institutionalization and bureaucratization, but people >> still (feel) part of the revolution ? for a few generations. >> >> Note, this phenomena is inter/generational in duration. >> >> This seems to be an image of psyche emerging from phantom >> appearances, becoming existent and then becoming >> symbolized but at some moment the revolutionary spirit >> **disappears** and what remains are imaginary phantoms. >> >> Adding my own reflections are these revolutionary spirits >> that have disappeared, are they **dormant** or **dead**. >> Can their spirit be **reawakened** or is that a phantom? >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> *From: *Helena Worthen >> *Sent: *July 16, 2016 7:02 PM >> *To: *ablunden@mira.net ; >> eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf >> >> OK ? from Andy?s link: >> >> "When we know the thing and the laws of reflection of >> light, we can always explain, predict, elicit, and change >> the phantom.? >> >> How about this: the thing is what the teacher wants the >> student to learn. By understanding how people learn (the >> laws of reflection of light), the teacher can explain, >> predict, elicit and change what the student learns (the >> phantom). >> >> I like thinking of what the learner learns as a phantom. >> It certainly feels like a phantom at the beginning of a >> class and gets more flesh on it as the weeks go by, but >> is still a phantom at the end of the semester, although >> hopefully a different-looking phantom. >> >> Helena >> >> > On Jul 2, 2016, at 10:33 PM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1387 >> >> > >> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> > Andy Blunden >> >> > http://home.mira.net/~andy >> >> > >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making >> >> >> > On 3/07/2016 3:19 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >> >> M... >> >> >> >> >> >> And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror >> metaphor? >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer >> > > wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I think that?s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear >> that I?m being inconsistent introducing gods after being >> so hard on Michael for invoking intelligent design. But, >> while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in >> arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of >> existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the >> ontology of Western folk psychology, I also want to >> insist that the ontology of a scientific psychology has >> to be consistent and non-contradictory, which means it >> must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology >> (except as an appearance to be explained, like a candle >> seemingly ?behind? a mirror), and no god either. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Martin >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry >> > wrote: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Greg, >> >> >>>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and >> (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and >> mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning >> seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or >> orienting towards (mind) as an object. >> >> >>>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and >> symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as >> object. >> >> >>>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is >> *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular >> traditions. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> From: Greg Thompson >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jul 18 20:38:06 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 20:38:06 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: IRECE special issue on perezhivanie and subjectivity In-Reply-To: <578bb49d.d120620a.7aea2.32e7@mx.google.com> References: <578bb49d.d120620a.7aea2.32e7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <578da0d4.5341620a.4ac4c.1825@mx.google.com> The special issue on perezhivanie has an article written by Gonzales Rey and Albertina Martinez (Perezhivanie: Advancing on Its Implications for the Cultural Historical Approach.) All the articles in this special issue are open access to download. I am focusing on this article because Gonzales Rey seems to be a central figure in reinterpreting the meaning of the legacy of Vygotsky in his last year of life (1933-1934). Rey says this new approach is actually a return to the themes of his writing in ?The Psychology of Art?. Rey quotes Leontiev who recognized a profound shift occurring in this last year: ?Here I will focus on the ideas of Vygotsky?s last year, from late 1933 to his death in 1934. Our task will be to grasp the logic of this uncompleted work and attempt to extrapolate the tendencies that were developing in his thinking.? (Leontiev) Rey then adds: ?Unfortunately little has been done to rescue Vygotsky?s final legacy because the dominant representation of his thoughts prevent new interpretations of his work.? (Rey) The notion of perezhivanie, from Rey?s perspective, is central to recognizing Vygotsky?s final legacy forming in 1933-34. Rey makes the case that Vygotsky in his final year was making what must have felt he was making an extreme shift in the tendencies of his thought ?considering the dominant principles based on Activity Theory that ruled Soviet Psychology in 1934.? My intent in posting this is to generate a conversation that some will read as advancing cultural historical theory, while others will read as Rey extrapolating misunderstandings. Rey is focusing on the subjective aspect of what he calls human *psyche* that focuses on the reality of perezhivanie. Hoping to keep this topic alive. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Lplarry From smago@uga.edu Thu Jul 28 02:56:47 2016 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 09:56:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: JoLLE newsletter to share on social media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An update from the Journal of Language and Literacy Education! https://www.smore.com/4r6k9-july-jolle-update [https://d1zqayhc1yz6oo.cloudfront.net/579968411fb6c20c853fa034-screenshot-fb_wide.jpg?_v=1469672442] July JoLLE Update www.smore.com July JoLLE Update From dkirsh@lsu.edu Thu Jul 28 10:04:45 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 17:04:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts" Message-ID: I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that includes a focus on identity. The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu), I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. David Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, including their sexuality Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, but different in terms of personality. Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind of person one is recognized as being] Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] From kevin.oconnor@colorado.edu Thu Jul 28 10:53:09 2016 From: kevin.oconnor@colorado.edu (Kevin O'Connor) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 17:53:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FBE3355-6BA2-4BC8-9E2C-B5941DC3C088@colorado.edu> Hi David- This sounds really interesting - it would be great to see what you come up with. There were a number of films that came out in the early 2000?s that explored themes of memory, memory loss, memory erasure - Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, 50 First Dates, and others. I think films like this problematize the essential self, at least implicitly, though what each film does with it can vary. The best of these films, in my view, was Memento; it has the added bonus of placing mediational means at the center of the main character?s narrative reconstruction of identity. I?ve never assigned it as a primary text for a course, though I have recommended it and had useful discussions about it with students. Good luck with your course! Kevin > On Jul 28, 2016, at 11:04 AM, David H Kirshner wrote: > > I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that includes a focus on identity. > The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. > > I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. > Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. > > If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu), I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. > > Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. > > David > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ > 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, including their sexuality > > Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) > The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, but different in terms of personality. > > Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind of person one is recognized as being] > > Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > > From dkirsh@lsu.edu Thu Jul 28 11:21:18 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 18:21:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: <9FBE3355-6BA2-4BC8-9E2C-B5941DC3C088@colorado.edu> References: <9FBE3355-6BA2-4BC8-9E2C-B5941DC3C088@colorado.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Kevin. I'll make a point of searching these out. Calls to mind, also, Inception. This is a very odd movie in that it is utterly terrifying psychologically, except that the genre of action/adventure doesn't let you process it at the psychological level. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin O'Connor Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:53 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" Hi David- This sounds really interesting - it would be great to see what you come up with. There were a number of films that came out in the early 2000?s that explored themes of memory, memory loss, memory erasure - Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, 50 First Dates, and others. I think films like this problematize the essential self, at least implicitly, though what each film does with it can vary. The best of these films, in my view, was Memento; it has the added bonus of placing mediational means at the center of the main character?s narrative reconstruction of identity. I?ve never assigned it as a primary text for a course, though I have recommended it and had useful discussions about it with students. Good luck with your course! Kevin > On Jul 28, 2016, at 11:04 AM, David H Kirshner wrote: > > I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that includes a focus on identity. > The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. > > I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. > Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. > > If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu), I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. > > Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. > > David > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ > 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, including their sexuality > > Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los- > angeles-researchers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) > The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, but different in terms of personality. > > Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in > education. In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 > (pp. 3-56). Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. > [identity = kind of person one is recognized as being] > > Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). > Countering the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal > of Early Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in > http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jul 28 13:12:09 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 05:12:09 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some suggestions, one popular and a few academic. Popular: The Butterfly Effect (movie starting Ashton Kusher) Academic, more accessible: Stanton Wortham's essay The Heterogenously Distributed Self Academic, middling: Hyang-Jin Jung's book Learning to be an Individual: Emotion and Person in an American Junior High School Academic, more difficult: Vincent Colapietro's book Peirce's Approach to the Self: A Semiotic Perspective Academic, much more difficult: Karl Marx's Chapter 1 of the Grundrisse. This seems to me to be a fundamental articulation of the project (although it helps to read something of Smith's Wealth of Nations prior to this - but might not hurt to balance that with Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments, esp. the "looking glass theory of the self" later developed by Charles Cooley... that reminds me that Goffman's Presentation of Self in Everyday Life is a classic piece that can do a lot of work, and Mead's I/me distinction as confused as it is can get students thinking about the thoroughly social nature of the self). Also, Marx's Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts - esp. passages on species being and the idea that "man [sic] is social when doing science" (or something like that). Academic, don't go there: Hegel on Self-consciousness. Some other stuff: Ken Gergen's Relational Self (2 books with that in the title), Bakhtin on consummation, Volosinov's Freudianism critique, Foucault on subjectification, Hacking on "making up people" (and/or "a historical ontology of ourselves"). Okay, now I've gone too far. Love to hear what you are able to put together. -greg p.s. speaking of memory and the self, in doing a quick search for zoopoliticon [sic], I found this interesting XMCA post from a gentleman I don't remember: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2014-03.dir/msg00175.html On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 2:04 AM, David H Kirshner wrote: > I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that > includes a focus on identity. > The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students > compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of > their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning > facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. > > I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. > Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential > texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb > essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, > poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can > include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short > stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. > > If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu), > I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. > > Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. > > David > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. > Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted > from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ > 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, > including their sexuality > > Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. > > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) > The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, > but different in terms of personality. > > Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. > In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). > Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind > of person one is recognized as being] > > Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering > the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early > Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in > http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jul 28 13:45:49 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 13:45:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <579a6f3a.0d52620a.77603.a265@mx.google.com> One suggestion (The Sociocultural Turn in Psychology The Contextual Emergence of Mind and Self) by Jack Martin and Suzanne Kirschner. Describes 5 models (including cultural historical) in a general context of cultural psychology. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Greg Thompson Sent: July 28, 2016 1:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" Some suggestions, one popular and a few academic. Popular: The Butterfly Effect (movie starting Ashton Kusher) Academic, more accessible: Stanton Wortham's essay The Heterogenously Distributed Self Academic, middling: Hyang-Jin Jung's book Learning to be an Individual: Emotion and Person in an American Junior High School Academic, more difficult: Vincent Colapietro's book Peirce's Approach to the Self: A Semiotic Perspective Academic, much more difficult: Karl Marx's Chapter 1 of the Grundrisse. This seems to me to be a fundamental articulation of the project (although it helps to read something of Smith's Wealth of Nations prior to this - but might not hurt to balance that with Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments, esp. the "looking glass theory of the self" later developed by Charles Cooley... that reminds me that Goffman's Presentation of Self in Everyday Life is a classic piece that can do a lot of work, and Mead's I/me distinction as confused as it is can get students thinking about the thoroughly social nature of the self). Also, Marx's Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts - esp. passages on species being and the idea that "man [sic] is social when doing science" (or something like that). Academic, don't go there: Hegel on Self-consciousness. Some other stuff: Ken Gergen's Relational Self (2 books with that in the title), Bakhtin on consummation, Volosinov's Freudianism critique, Foucault on subjectification, Hacking on "making up people" (and/or "a historical ontology of ourselves"). Okay, now I've gone too far. Love to hear what you are able to put together. -greg p.s. speaking of memory and the self, in doing a quick search for zoopoliticon [sic], I found this interesting XMCA post from a gentleman I don't remember: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2014-03.dir/msg00175.html On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 2:04 AM, David H Kirshner wrote: > I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that > includes a focus on identity. > The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students > compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of > their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning > facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. > > I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. > Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential > texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb > essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, > poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can > include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short > stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. > > If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu), > I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. > > Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. > > David > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. > Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted > from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ > 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, > including their sexuality > > Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. > > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) > The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, > but different in terms of personality. > > Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. > In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). > Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind > of person one is recognized as being] > > Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering > the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early > Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in > http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkirsh@lsu.edu Thu Jul 28 14:28:31 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 21:28:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the suggestions, Greg, and also for recalling the prior XMCA discussion. Because my course is a compressed month-long experience, I'm ruling out books, limiting the academic contributions to shorter works--Stanton's piece might fit in nicely. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:12 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" Some suggestions, one popular and a few academic. Popular: The Butterfly Effect (movie starting Ashton Kusher) Academic, more accessible: Stanton Wortham's essay The Heterogenously Distributed Self Academic, middling: Hyang-Jin Jung's book Learning to be an Individual: Emotion and Person in an American Junior High School Academic, more difficult: Vincent Colapietro's book Peirce's Approach to the Self: A Semiotic Perspective Academic, much more difficult: Karl Marx's Chapter 1 of the Grundrisse. This seems to me to be a fundamental articulation of the project (although it helps to read something of Smith's Wealth of Nations prior to this - but might not hurt to balance that with Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments, esp. the "looking glass theory of the self" later developed by Charles Cooley... that reminds me that Goffman's Presentation of Self in Everyday Life is a classic piece that can do a lot of work, and Mead's I/me distinction as confused as it is can get students thinking about the thoroughly social nature of the self). Also, Marx's Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts - esp. passages on species being and the idea that "man [sic] is social when doing science" (or something like that). Academic, don't go there: Hegel on Self-consciousness. Some other stuff: Ken Gergen's Relational Self (2 books with that in the title), Bakhtin on consummation, Volosinov's Freudianism critique, Foucault on subjectification, Hacking on "making up people" (and/or "a historical ontology of ourselves"). Okay, now I've gone too far. Love to hear what you are able to put together. -greg p.s. speaking of memory and the self, in doing a quick search for zoopoliticon [sic], I found this interesting XMCA post from a gentleman I don't remember: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2014-03.dir/msg00175.html On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 2:04 AM, David H Kirshner wrote: > I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be > that includes a focus on identity. > The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which > students compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in > exploration of their identity. The rationale is that this > self-awareness of positioning facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. > > I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. > Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential > texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb > essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, > poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can > include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short > stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. > > If you'd like to email me off-line > (dkirsh@lsu.edu), > I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. > > Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. > > David > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. > Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. > Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ > 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, > including their sexuality > > Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. > > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los- > angeles-researchers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) > The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically > identical, but different in terms of personality. > > Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. > In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). > Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = > kind of person one is recognized as being] > > Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). > Countering the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal > of Early Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in > http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From schuckthemonkey@gmail.com Thu Jul 28 16:25:26 2016 From: schuckthemonkey@gmail.com (Christopher Schuck) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 19:25:26 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David, Sounds like a great class! The Black Swan is another excellent movie touching upon these themes that wasn't mentioned. In terms of reading, I would recommend one of the many excellent articles by Mark Freeman on the relationship between memory, identity and narrative self (he also has a chapter in the Kirschner/Martin text that Lplarry [real name??] recommended), or a chapter from either his 2010 book Hindsight or 1993 book Rewriting the Self. Another perspective is from philosophy of psychiatry, where there has been a lot of interdisciplinary discussion about the ways that certain kinds of psychopathology (or the way society frames them) interacts with identity; for example, Jennifer Radden - Divided Minds and Successive Selves or the collection Personal Identity and Fractured Selves (Mathews and Bok) which also addresses neuroscience. Muriel Dimen edited an anthology of psychoanalytic case studies (With Culture in Mind) that demonstrate how culture and politics inevitably become implicated in identity, and how this in turn challenged the analyst's assumptions about their own identity. Given that you are critiquing traditional models, you might want to check out Marya Schechtman who has made some interesting critiques of philosophy's reliance on continuity in "personal identity" literature and its wonky tendencies to engage in "what if" thought experiments while ignoring more narrative elements; she has an article on the significance of "empathic access" to understanding identity which might be good for teachers-in-training (attached). Yet another perspective would be the Buddhist idea of the "empty self" (maybe a guided mindfulness exercise focusing on that topic?). Finally, as an experiential exercise: this might be way out there, but have you ever considered offering students the voluntary option of spending an hour in a sensory deprivation chamber (assuming there is such a resource in your area)? This could be a really interesting way of exploring the relationship between perception of self and felt bodily sense. A friend of mind used to go to a place near our town that had a tank you could rent by the hour, and found that it really challenged his habitual frames of mind in this regard. Unless it's too much of a liability issue, of course! Best, Chris On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 1:04 PM, David H Kirshner wrote: > I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that > includes a focus on identity. > The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students > compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of > their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning > facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. > > I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. > Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential > texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb > essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, > poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can > include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short > stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. > > If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu), > I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. > > Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. > > David > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. > Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted > from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ > 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, > including their sexuality > > Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. > > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) > The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, > but different in terms of personality. > > Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. > In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). > Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind > of person one is recognized as being] > > Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering > the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early > Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in > http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SchechtmanEmpathicAccessMissingIngredientPersonalIdentity2001.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 97162 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160728/c0d4f3c4/attachment.pdf From rein.raud@tlu.ee Thu Jul 28 20:38:33 2016 From: rein.raud@tlu.ee (Rein Raud) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 06:38:33 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47400DAE-6D3C-4E02-BD73-A7C9DE0BA1B4@tlu.ee> Hello, Several suggestions: one is a classic Japanese anime by Oshii Mamoru entitled ?Ghost in the Shell? with a story no longer merely science fiction, as there are teams of serious scientists around, trying to create a way how the brain could be uploaded to the internet so that the mind of an individual could continue to function independently as a piece of software. The second suggestion is the book ?The Semiotic Self? (Polity 1994) by Norbert Wiley - I saw a reference to Colapietro?s treatment of Peirce?s views of selfhood, in this one they are perhaps more accessibly treated in comparison to those of Herbert Mead. The third is a book by Zygmunt Bauman and myself entitled "Practices of Selfhood" (Polity 2015), a dialogue covering aspects such as selfhood and language, selfhood as performance, selfhood and technology (see above), technologies of self-production etc. Then I?d consider something by Daniel Dennett, whose popular and accessible version of neurophilosophy provides a useful link to the current state of science. As to the idea of Buddhist self, I would strongly advise against a ?mindfulness? exercise as a way to getting to know it, because even though this form of therapy is parasitic on Buddhist thought, it distorts it considerably. There are many good summaries of Buddhist ideas on the topic, so if you would like to include it in your course, I would be glad to point some out for you. (But it is a topic that merits a full-length course of its own.) With best wishes, Rein Raud From dkirsh@lsu.edu Thu Jul 28 20:42:39 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 03:42:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fabulous resources, thanks Chris. You've really caught onto the idea of experiential texts; the anthology of psychoanalytic case studies seems dead on. I checked into sensory deprivation chambers, and there is a place in Baton Rouge, but it's 60 bucks a pop, so it's not going to be a homework assignment. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Schuck Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 6:25 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" Hi David, Sounds like a great class! The Black Swan is another excellent movie touching upon these themes that wasn't mentioned. In terms of reading, I would recommend one of the many excellent articles by Mark Freeman on the relationship between memory, identity and narrative self (he also has a chapter in the Kirschner/Martin text that Lplarry [real name??] recommended), or a chapter from either his 2010 book Hindsight or 1993 book Rewriting the Self. Another perspective is from philosophy of psychiatry, where there has been a lot of interdisciplinary discussion about the ways that certain kinds of psychopathology (or the way society frames them) interacts with identity; for example, Jennifer Radden - Divided Minds and Successive Selves or the collection Personal Identity and Fractured Selves (Mathews and Bok) which also addresses neuroscience. Muriel Dimen edited an anthology of psychoanalytic case studies (With Culture in Mind) that demonstrate how culture and politics inevitably become implicated in identity, and how this in turn challenged the analyst's assumptions about their own identity. Given that you are critiquing traditional models, you might want to check out Marya Schechtman who has made some interesting critiques of philosophy's reliance on continuity in "personal identity" literature and its wonky tendencies to engage in "what if" thought experiments while ignoring more narrative elements; she has an article on the significance of "empathic access" to understanding identity which might be good for teachers-in-training (attached). Yet another perspective would be the Buddhist idea of the "empty self" (maybe a guided mindfulness exercise focusing on that topic?). Finally, as an experiential exercise: this might be way out there, but have you ever considered offering students the voluntary option of spending an hour in a sensory deprivation chamber (assuming there is such a resource in your area)? This could be a really interesting way of exploring the relationship between perception of self and felt bodily sense. A friend of mind used to go to a place near our town that had a tank you could rent by the hour, and found that it really challenged his habitual frames of mind in this regard. Unless it's too much of a liability issue, of course! Best, Chris On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 1:04 PM, David H Kirshner wrote: > I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be > that includes a focus on identity. > The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which > students compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in > exploration of their identity. The rationale is that this > self-awareness of positioning facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. > > I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. > Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential > texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb > essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, > poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can > include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short > stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. > > If you'd like to email me off-line > (dkirsh@lsu.edu), > I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. > > Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. > > David > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. > Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. > Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ > 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, > including their sexuality > > Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. > > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los- > angeles-researchers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) > The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically > identical, but different in terms of personality. > > Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. > In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). > Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = > kind of person one is recognized as being] > > Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). > Countering the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal > of Early Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in > http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > > > From mwsmith@temple.edu Thu Jul 28 21:10:35 2016 From: mwsmith@temple.edu (MICHAEL W SMITH) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 00:10:35 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: References: <9FBE3355-6BA2-4BC8-9E2C-B5941DC3C088@colorado.edu> Message-ID: I'd recommend Anzaldua's Borderlands/La Frontera. On Jul 28, 2016 2:22 PM, "David H Kirshner" wrote: > Thanks, Kevin. > I'll make a point of searching these out. > Calls to mind, also, Inception. > This is a very odd movie in that it is utterly terrifying psychologically, > except that the genre of action/adventure doesn't let you process it at the > psychological level. > David > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin O'Connor > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:53 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" > > Hi David- > This sounds really interesting - it would be great to see what you come up > with. > > There were a number of films that came out in the early 2000?s that > explored themes of memory, memory loss, memory erasure - Eternal Sunshine > of the Spotless Mind, 50 First Dates, and others. I think films like this > problematize the essential self, at least implicitly, though what each film > does with it can vary. > > The best of these films, in my view, was Memento; it has the added bonus > of placing mediational means at the center of the main character?s > narrative reconstruction of identity. I?ve never assigned it as a primary > text for a course, though I have recommended it and had useful discussions > about it with students. > > Good luck with your course! > > Kevin > > > > On Jul 28, 2016, at 11:04 AM, David H Kirshner wrote: > > > > I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be > that includes a focus on identity. > > The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students > compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of > their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning > facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. > > > > I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. > > Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential > texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb > essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, > poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can > include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short > stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. > > > > If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu), > I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. > > > > Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. > > > > David > > > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. > Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted > from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > > > PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ > > 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, > including their sexuality > > > > Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. > > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los- > > angeles-researchers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > > > Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) > > The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, > but different in terms of personality. > > > > Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in > > education. In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 > > (pp. 3-56). Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. > > [identity = kind of person one is recognized as being] > > > > Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). > > Countering the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal > > of Early Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in > > http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > > > > > > > > > From dkirsh@lsu.edu Thu Jul 28 21:11:59 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 04:11:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: <47400DAE-6D3C-4E02-BD73-A7C9DE0BA1B4@tlu.ee> References: <47400DAE-6D3C-4E02-BD73-A7C9DE0BA1B4@tlu.ee> Message-ID: Great stuff, thanks Rein! Love the anime suggestion. The suggestion of Dennett calls to mind Hofstadter's Ant Fugue--again the experiential quality. Hofstadter, D. R. (1979). ... Ant fugue. In D. R. Hofstadter, G?del, Escher, Bach: An eternal golden braid (pp. 311-336). New York: Basic Books. Your book looks fascinating--congratulations! If we can't read it all, would you recommend Chapter 1? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rein Raud Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 10:39 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" Hello, Several suggestions: one is a classic Japanese anime by Oshii Mamoru entitled ?Ghost in the Shell? with a story no longer merely science fiction, as there are teams of serious scientists around, trying to create a way how the brain could be uploaded to the internet so that the mind of an individual could continue to function independently as a piece of software. The second suggestion is the book ?The Semiotic Self? (Polity 1994) by Norbert Wiley - I saw a reference to Colapietro?s treatment of Peirce?s views of selfhood, in this one they are perhaps more accessibly treated in comparison to those of Herbert Mead. The third is a book by Zygmunt Bauman and myself entitled "Practices of Selfhood" (Polity 2015), a dialogue covering aspects such as selfhood and language, selfhood as performance, selfhood and technology (see above), technologies of self-production etc. Then I?d consider something by Daniel Dennett, whose popular and accessible version of neurophilosophy provides a useful link to the current state of science. As to the idea of Buddhist self, I would strongly advise against a ?mindfulness? exercise as a way to getting to know it, because even though this form of therapy is parasitic on Buddhist thought, it distorts it considerably. There are many good summaries of Buddhist ideas on the topic, so if you would like to include it in your course, I would be glad to point some out for you. (But it is a topic that merits a full-length course of its own.) With best wishes, Rein Raud From rein.raud@tlu.ee Thu Jul 28 21:45:39 2016 From: rein.raud@tlu.ee (Rein Raud) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 07:45:39 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: References: <47400DAE-6D3C-4E02-BD73-A7C9DE0BA1B4@tlu.ee> Message-ID: <0B11A7F7-E426-4069-A141-5511007BAC5C@tlu.ee> Dear David, As to Dennett, a very accessible summary of what he has to say in about 10 pages is to be found in ?Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking ? (Norton & Co 2013), pp 333ff, ?The Self as the Center of Narrative Gravity?. For our book, yes, chapter 1 or perhaps 3 ?Performing Selves?, which might come closer to the issue of (social) identity. With best wishes, Rein > On 29 Jul 2016, at 07:11, David H Kirshner wrote: > > Great stuff, thanks Rein! > > Love the anime suggestion. > The suggestion of Dennett calls to mind Hofstadter's Ant Fugue--again the experiential quality. > Hofstadter, D. R. (1979). ... Ant fugue. In D. R. Hofstadter, G?del, Escher, Bach: An eternal golden braid (pp. 311-336). New York: Basic Books. > > Your book looks fascinating--congratulations! > If we can't read it all, would you recommend Chapter 1? > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rein Raud > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 10:39 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" > > Hello, > > Several suggestions: one is a classic Japanese anime by Oshii Mamoru entitled ?Ghost in the Shell? with a story no longer merely science fiction, as there are teams of serious scientists around, trying to create a way how the brain could be uploaded to the internet so that the mind of an individual could continue to function independently as a piece of software. > > The second suggestion is the book ?The Semiotic Self? (Polity 1994) by Norbert Wiley - I saw a reference to Colapietro?s treatment of Peirce?s views of selfhood, in this one they are perhaps more accessibly treated in comparison to those of Herbert Mead. > > The third is a book by Zygmunt Bauman and myself entitled "Practices of Selfhood" (Polity 2015), a dialogue covering aspects such as selfhood and language, selfhood as performance, selfhood and technology (see above), technologies of self-production etc. > > Then I?d consider something by Daniel Dennett, whose popular and accessible version of neurophilosophy provides a useful link to the current state of science. > > As to the idea of Buddhist self, I would strongly advise against a ?mindfulness? exercise as a way to getting to know it, because even though this form of therapy is parasitic on Buddhist thought, it distorts it considerably. There are many good summaries of Buddhist ideas on the topic, so if you would like to include it in your course, I would be glad to point some out for you. (But it is a topic that merits a full-length course of its own.) > > With best wishes, > > Rein Raud > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Jul 28 22:01:19 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 22:01:19 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" In-Reply-To: <47400DAE-6D3C-4E02-BD73-A7C9DE0BA1B4@tlu.ee> References: <47400DAE-6D3C-4E02-BD73-A7C9DE0BA1B4@tlu.ee> Message-ID: <579ae35c.c817620a.8923f.febd@mx.google.com> Rein, Your offer to recommend Buddhist approaches to the self through texts is something others may want to explore. In particular juxtaposed with Mead or Peirce. Your book presenting a dialogue with Zygmunt is a format that I find thought provoking. His notion of *liquid* modernity is disturbing and I hope your dialogue engages this topic. Also a reasonable price as a kindle book. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Rein Raud From rein.raud@tlu.ee Thu Jul 28 22:47:41 2016 From: rein.raud@tlu.ee (Rein Raud) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 08:47:41 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Buddhist ideas of self In-Reply-To: <579ae35c.c817620a.8923f.febd@mx.google.com> References: <47400DAE-6D3C-4E02-BD73-A7C9DE0BA1B4@tlu.ee> <579ae35c.c817620a.8923f.febd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Dear all, As a response to Lplarry?s question, here are a few short classical passages from various Buddhist sources that introduce the idea of no-self philosophically, and make it plain that it is, at its basis, a fully rational idea: Milindapanha, II 25.1 I only have an old edition at hand, ?Milinda?s Questions? vol. I, transl. by I.B.Horner, Luzac & Co, London 1969, pp.34-38 Vimalakirtinirdesasutra ch.7 (beginning). The best English translation is ?The Holy Teaching of Vimalakirti? by Robert Thurman, Pennsylvania State University Press, University Park 1976 (I have the 11th printing, 1997), pp.56-58. The comments are essential. Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika, ch.18 (but I would recommend reading chapters 5-6 first), a very well commented translation is by Jay Garfield, Oxford University Press, NY and Oxford, 1995, pp. 149-58 and 245-53. Dogen, Genjokoan (ch.1 of the Shobogenzo). There are many translations and comments, some of them unfortunately quite misleading. I would recommend the one by Tom Kasulis, in Japanese Philosophy: A Sourcebook, Hawaii University Press, Honolulu 2011, pp.144-47. As you can see, only 30 pages in total :) With best wishes, Rein > On 29 Jul 2016, at 08:01, Lplarry wrote: > > Rein, > Your offer to recommend Buddhist approaches to the self through texts is something others may want to explore. > In particular juxtaposed with Mead or Peirce. > Your book presenting a dialogue with Zygmunt is a format that I find thought provoking. His notion of *liquid* modernity is disturbing and I hope your dialogue engages this topic. > Also a reasonable price as a kindle book. > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Rein Raud > Sent: July 28, 2016 8:40 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts" > > Hello, > > Several suggestions: one is a classic Japanese anime by Oshii Mamoru entitled ?Ghost in the Shell? > with a story no longer merely science fiction, as there are teams of serious scientists around, trying to create a way how the brain could be uploaded to the internet so that the mind of an individual could continue to function independently as a piece of software. > > The second suggestion is the book ?The Semiotic Self? > (Polity 1994) by Norbert Wiley - I saw a reference to Colapietro?s treatment of Peirce?s views of selfhood, in this one they are perhaps more accessibly treated in comparison to those of Herbert Mead. > > The third is a book by Zygmunt Bauman and myself entitled "Practices of Selfhood" > (Polity 2015), a dialogue covering aspects such as selfhood and language, selfhood as performance, selfhood and technology (see above), technologies of self-production etc. > > Then I?d consider something by Daniel Dennett, whose popular and accessible version of neurophilosophy provides a useful link to the current state of science. > > As to the idea of Buddhist self, I would strongly advise against a ?mindfulness? exercise as a way to getting to know it, because even though this form of therapy is parasitic on Buddhist thought, it distorts it considerably. There are many good summaries of Buddhist ideas on the topic, so if you would like to include it in your course, I would be glad to point some out for you. (But it is a topic that merits a full-length course of its own.) > > With best wishes, > > Rein Raud From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 01:05:07 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 01:05:07 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Buddhist ideas of self In-Reply-To: References: <47400DAE-6D3C-4E02-BD73-A7C9DE0BA1B4@tlu.ee> <579ae35c.c817620a.8923f.febd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <579b0e71.0638620a.722a4.1edf@mx.google.com> Thanks Rein Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Rein Raud From dkirsh@lsu.edu Fri Jul 29 09:20:43 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 16:20:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Works of Art?? Message-ID: My thanks for the many great suggestions of movies and academic works! I would also welcome suggestions of poems and works of graphic art that seem to you to problematize the notion of identity. You're welcome to send suggestions off-line, and I'll compile and share with XMCA. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David H Kirshner Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:05 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts" I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that includes a focus on identity. The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu), I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. David Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, including their sexuality Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, but different in terms of personality. Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind of person one is recognized as being] Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jul 29 09:41:22 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 12:41:22 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Works of Art?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David The H G Wells story, "in the country of the blind" is thought provoking in many relevant ways and my students have lot ten a lot out of it. And it's online free. The film"Being There" may also be useful. Mike On Friday, 29 July 2016, David H Kirshner wrote: > My thanks for the many great suggestions of movies and academic works! > > I would also welcome suggestions of poems and works of graphic art that > seem to you to problematize the notion of identity. > > You're welcome to send suggestions off-line, and I'll compile and share > with XMCA. > > David > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of David H > Kirshner > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:05 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > ) > Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts" > > I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that > includes a focus on identity. > The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students > compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of > their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning > facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. > > I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. > Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential > texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb > essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, > poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can > include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short > stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. > > If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu dkirsh@lsu.edu >), I'll send a compilation of all > suggestions to XMCA. > > Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. > > David > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. > Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted > from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ > 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, > including their sexuality > > Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. > > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) > The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, > but different in terms of personality. > > Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. > In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). > Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind > of person one is recognized as being] > > Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering > the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early > Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in > http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 09:42:28 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 09:42:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Worksof Art?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> David, The Buddhist depiction of the oxcart in multiple images with each image *dissolving* something (reified??) and the last caption being identical to the *original* demonstrating this process of dissolution to arrive at the *same* place but transformed. The ordinary become extraordinary. Rein may suggest a particular illustration. It is thought provoking Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: David H Kirshner From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Fri Jul 29 10:06:48 2016 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (R.J.S.Parsons) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:06:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Works of Art?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about "Olympia" where the courtesan refuses to accept the given identity by staring straight back at you. And you could add C?zanne's copy, which he called "A modern Olympia" - you could work with why C?zanne called his "modern". The original already was modern, because of the courtesan's gaze (I remain puzzled by why C?zanne chose to distinguish his by calling it modern). The C?zanne also plays with identity by including the gentleman voyeur in the painting, whereas in the original the voyeur is the viewer. So it plays not only with identities within the painting, but with your identity too. Rob On 29/07/2016 17:20, David H Kirshner wrote: > My thanks for the many great suggestions of movies and academic works! > > I would also welcome suggestions of poems and works of graphic art that seem to you to problematize the notion of identity. > > You're welcome to send suggestions off-line, and I'll compile and share with XMCA. > > David > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David H Kirshner > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:05 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts" > > I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that includes a focus on identity. > The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. > > I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. > Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. > > If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu), I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. > > Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. > > David > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ > 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, including their sexuality > > Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) > The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, but different in terms of personality. > > Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind of person one is recognized as being] > > Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > > > From gutierkd@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 10:11:14 2016 From: gutierkd@gmail.com (Kris Gutierrez) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 10:11:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Works of Art?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah "Being There" -a favorite and relevant in this political election Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 29, 2016, at 9:41 AM, mike cole wrote: > > David > > The H G Wells story, "in the country of the blind" is thought provoking in > many relevant ways and my students have lot ten a lot out of it. And it's > online free. The film"Being There" may also be useful. > > Mike > >> On Friday, 29 July 2016, David H Kirshner wrote: >> >> My thanks for the many great suggestions of movies and academic works! >> >> I would also welcome suggestions of poems and works of graphic art that >> seem to you to problematize the notion of identity. >> >> You're welcome to send suggestions off-line, and I'll compile and share >> with XMCA. >> >> David >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of David H >> Kirshner >> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:05 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> ) >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts" >> >> I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that >> includes a focus on identity. >> The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students >> compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of >> their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning >> facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. >> >> I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. >> Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential >> texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb >> essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, >> poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can >> include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short >> stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. >> >> If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu > dkirsh@lsu.edu >), I'll send a compilation of all >> suggestions to XMCA. >> >> Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. >> >> David >> >> Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. >> Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted >> from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. >> >> PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ >> 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, >> including their sexuality >> >> Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. >> >> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E >> >> Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) >> The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, >> but different in terms of personality. >> >> Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. >> In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). >> Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind >> of person one is recognized as being] >> >> Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering >> the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early >> Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in >> http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch From daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 10:16:51 2016 From: daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com (Daniel Hyman) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 13:16:51 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Works of Art?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear David, Many thanks for energizing this thread. In the realm of music, the (Roman Catholic) Mass in B Minor, BWV 232, of that ardent Lutheran Johann Sebastian Bach, comes to mind, if I understand your threshold criteria clearly. Appealing recordings, reliable scores, and historically-informed discussions of this seminal and deeply learned choral work are plentiful. I can offer a few recommendations if that is of interest. Kind regards, Daniel On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 12:20 PM, David H Kirshner wrote: > My thanks for the many great suggestions of movies and academic works! > > I would also welcome suggestions of poems and works of graphic art that > seem to you to problematize the notion of identity. > > You're welcome to send suggestions off-line, and I'll compile and share > with XMCA. > > David > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David H Kirshner > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:05 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts" > > I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that > includes a focus on identity. > The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students > compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of > their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning > facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. > > I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. > Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential > texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb > essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, > poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can > include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short > stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. > > If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu), > I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. > > Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. > > David > > Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. > Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted > from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. > > PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ > 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, > including their sexuality > > Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. > > https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E > > Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) > The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, > but different in terms of personality. > > Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. > In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). > Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind > of person one is recognized as being] > > Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering > the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early > Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in > http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] > > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 10:22:50 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 11:22:50 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Works of Art?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90F5584C-83BB-4A15-ACD9-6818D80D4822@gmail.com> Mike and Kris, I totally agree about ?Being There?. I just watched a scene from the movie on youtube. Totally relevant! Henry > On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Kris Gutierrez wrote: > > Ah "Being There" -a favorite and relevant in this political election > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 29, 2016, at 9:41 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >> David >> >> The H G Wells story, "in the country of the blind" is thought provoking in >> many relevant ways and my students have lot ten a lot out of it. And it's >> online free. The film"Being There" may also be useful. >> >> Mike >> >>> On Friday, 29 July 2016, David H Kirshner wrote: >>> >>> My thanks for the many great suggestions of movies and academic works! >>> >>> I would also welcome suggestions of poems and works of graphic art that >>> seem to you to problematize the notion of identity. >>> >>> You're welcome to send suggestions off-line, and I'll compile and share >>> with XMCA. >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of David H >>> Kirshner >>> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:05 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> ) >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts" >>> >>> I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that >>> includes a focus on identity. >>> The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students >>> compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of >>> their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning >>> facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. >>> >>> I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. >>> Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential >>> texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb >>> essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, >>> poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can >>> include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short >>> stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. >>> >>> If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu >> dkirsh@lsu.edu >), I'll send a compilation of all >>> suggestions to XMCA. >>> >>> Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. >>> >>> David >>> >>> Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. >>> Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted >>> from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. >>> >>> PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ >>> 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, >>> including their sexuality >>> >>> Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. >>> >>> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E >>> >>> Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) >>> The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, >>> but different in terms of personality. >>> >>> Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. >>> In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). >>> Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind >>> of person one is recognized as being] >>> >>> Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering >>> the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early >>> Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in >>> http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 10:36:28 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 11:36:28 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Worksof Art?? In-Reply-To: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7E25FA61-B16B-4135-917F-FA6DCD96FB60@gmail.com> I have enjoyed this subject line very much, googling a lot of connections. Larry?s oxcart took me to: http://www.sgiquarterly.org/buddhism2013oct-1.html Something else I read from the NYTImes seems connected to me, since it speaks to why anyone might want to be a teacher: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/24/upshot/first-rule-of-the-job-hunt-find-something-you-love-to-do.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=Trending&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article Henry > On Jul 29, 2016, at 10:42 AM, Lplarry wrote: > > David, > The Buddhist depiction of the oxcart in multiple images with each image *dissolving* something (reified??) and the last caption being identical to the *original* demonstrating this process of dissolution to arrive at the *same* place but transformed. The ordinary become extraordinary. > Rein may suggest a particular illustration. It is thought provoking > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: David H Kirshner From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 29 10:45:48 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:45:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] I just think it's great, more than great, Message-ID: ...that a woman has finally been nominated to be president of my country - almost 100 years since women's suffrage. Just in case no one noticed on this list. I also think it's of note that when Obama was nominated in 2008 that John McCain congratulated Barak Obama for making history. Notice the lack of acknowledgement in the same party for this historic nomination. Instead, that nominee is screaming to have this nominee put in jail. What does that mean? Isn't that typical of that kind of mentality from that kind of a man? And hasn't that been the history of women? to be a woman locked up and to have her liberties removed for trying to make a difference in the lives of others and for herself? to be silenced and then have her sanity questioned? Her body taken away from her. Imagine *the courage* it takes to get up in front of the world despite that history and despite that treatment and still say, "I want to do this job and I want to do it with you, together." Whether you like her or not, you have to consider that. It is marvelous that Bernie Sanders is doing what he can to heal the rift in the Democratic party. He's done a great job to bring attention to the issues and I hope it's the beginning of a re-turn to the left. I am also glad to hear that many Bernie supporters are going to continue fighting toward the goal of creating a more equal society even after Bernie returns to the senate. I plan to join them in that endeavor. Now is the time to come together and make sure a megalomaniac does not take over the free world. I hope you are all listening. There are about 100 days until the election. We all must act. I myself plan to volunteer, though I am not sure at this point where or how. If anyone knows of ways of acting as a responsible citizen in this election, I hope you will give a shout out on this list and provide suggestions. Let's come up with ideas. Additionally, I wish to acknowledge that I know this list is not for political discussions and I am not wanting to bait a complaining discourse here that would become inflamed or antagonistic, but I must acknowledge that history is happening right now, and we each have in our reach the means to help make a difference in our futures in some way or another. We are all citizens and we must work together despite differences. To listen and to learn and to love one another. That is what democracy is all about. Kind regards, Annalisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 11:14:10 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 12:14:10 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2EB5E799-19DA-42B0-AE50-6E4FC1C399F6@gmail.com> Anna, I would like to add that there is a constant complaint that Hillary doesn?t ?reveal? her SELF. When she did last night, one of the NPR commentators (David Brooks) complained her speech was mediocre. That certainly must come from gender expectations. When, and if, she finally satisfies journalists such as Brooks that she is both revealing of her SELF and oratorically at least above average, well, that would be Ginger Rogers dancing backwards and in heels. Hillary says she is more into the service side of public service than the pubic side. I wonder how that might change during her presidency. Henry > On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:45 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > ...that a woman has finally been nominated to be president of my country - almost 100 years since women's suffrage. > > > Just in case no one noticed on this list. > > > I also think it's of note that when Obama was nominated in 2008 that John McCain congratulated Barak Obama for making history. Notice the lack of acknowledgement in the same party for this historic nomination. Instead, that nominee is screaming to have this nominee put in jail. > > > What does that mean? > > > Isn't that typical of that kind of mentality from that kind of a man? And hasn't that been the history of women? to be a woman locked up and to have her liberties removed for trying to make a difference in the lives of others and for herself? to be silenced and then have her sanity questioned? Her body taken away from her. Imagine *the courage* it takes to get up in front of the world despite that history and despite that treatment and still say, "I want to do this job and I want to do it with you, together." > > > Whether you like her or not, you have to consider that. > > > It is marvelous that Bernie Sanders is doing what he can to heal the rift in the Democratic party. He's done a great job to bring attention to the issues and I hope it's the beginning of a re-turn to the left. I am also glad to hear that many Bernie supporters are going to continue fighting toward the goal of creating a more equal society even after Bernie returns to the senate. I plan to join them in that endeavor. Now is the time to come together and make sure a megalomaniac does not take over the free world. I hope you are all listening. There are about 100 days until the election. We all must act. > > > I myself plan to volunteer, though I am not sure at this point where or how. If anyone knows of ways of acting as a responsible citizen in this election, I hope you will give a shout out on this list and provide suggestions. Let's come up with ideas. > > > Additionally, I wish to acknowledge that I know this list is not for political discussions and I am not wanting to bait a complaining discourse here that would become inflamed or antagonistic, but I must acknowledge that history is happening right now, and we each have in our reach the means to help make a difference in our futures in some way or another. > > > We are all citizens and we must work together despite differences. > > > To listen and to learn and to love one another. > > > That is what democracy is all about. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > From rein.raud@tlu.ee Fri Jul 29 11:17:45 2016 From: rein.raud@tlu.ee (Rein Raud) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 21:17:45 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems andWorksof Art?? In-Reply-To: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hello again, What Larry had in mind is most likely the cycle of ?Ten Oxherding Pictures? or J?gy?zu, a Zen series of pictures demonstrating the spiritual progress of the adept. This has been commented many times by various masters, here for example, is one explanation, another one can be found in Shibayama Zenkei?s essay collection ?A Flower Does Not Talk ? (Tuttle 1970). That one addresses a simplified variant. There is also an independently developed Tibetan line of a similar visualization, ?Taming the Elephant ?, which indicates that there must have been a common source from which they have both developed, but, as far as I know, it has not been preserved. The Tibetan one has fairly straightforward symbolic, while the Zen one has been treated differently by different artists as well as commentators. While we are on the subject of Buddhism, there are quite a few poems in which adepts (various schools, but mostly Chinese and Japanese) have expressed their englightenment experience. There is also one poet called Ikky? (1394-1481), a regular visitor to pubs and brothels, who has often expressed his internal struggles. Another interesting identity crisis is the Chinese poet Tao Qian or Tao Yuanming (365-427), who lived in politically difficult times and therefore could not honestly serve the powers that be (even though, as a proper Confucian, he would have liked to) and instead chose to live in the country, drink a lot, read a lot and, luckily for us, write a lot. Quite a bit of that is a description of his identity problems. But I understand David would hardly want too much East Asian stuff. Anyway, here is a small selection of his work. My recommendation would be No 4 of ?Four poems written while drunk?, perhaps in conjunction with the Shadow & Spirit thing. Back to the West, another story that might be really good for the course is ?Counterparts? by James Joyce, in the ?Dubliners? collection. I have to refrain from telling what it is about, because it will absolutely spoil the reading experience. Those who have read it would probably agree this should not be done. It is not very long, and has an additional perk of getting students to read some Joyce. With best wishes, Rein > On 29 Jul 2016, at 19:42, Lplarry wrote: > > David, > The Buddhist depiction of the oxcart in multiple images with each image *dissolving* something (reified??) and the last caption being identical to the *original* demonstrating this process of dissolution to arrive at the *same* place but transformed. The ordinary become extraordinary. > Rein may suggest a particular illustration. It is thought provoking > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: David H Kirshner From dkirsh@lsu.edu Fri Jul 29 11:19:28 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 18:19:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Works of Art?? Message-ID: Wow, amazing resources! Henry, I wasn?t familiar with the oxcart metaphor of Buddhism that Larry referenced, so thanks for the parable, and also the NY Times piece. Daniel, is your suggestion of the ?(Roman Catholic) Mass in B Minor, BWV 232, of that ardent Lutheran Johann Sebastian Bach? based in some way on Bach?s submersion of his own identity in this composition? If so, in your view does this quality of submersion form part of the text of the music?is the sense of submersion that religion fosters enhanced in this music owing to Bach?s religious identity as a Lutheran? (Online or off-line, is good) Mike and Kris, thanks for the Being There suggestion. Rob, I checked out the ?Olympia? paintings, and find your contrast of the viewer-as-voyeur versus the viewer-as-viewer-of-the-voyeur fascinating. The tie in with modernity will need some untangling. (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22A+modern+Olympia%22+and+olympia&rlz=1C1SKPM_enUS566US589&biw=1364&bih=667&tbm=isch&imgil=RgI5mR_nCYto9M%253A%253B2mpARsdXkP_MhM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.paulcezanne.org%25252Fa-modern-olympia.jsp&source=iu&pf=m&fir=RgI5mR_nCYto9M%253A%252C2mpARsdXkP_MhM%252C_&usg=__CzmcINXHjfbps7eVeIv6mmnjgfE%3D&ved=0ahUKEwizoJb7lpnOAhVm4YMKHTq0C9QQyjcILQ&ei=1I-bV7PmA-bCjwS66K6gDQ#imgrc=IwLz8c3AbExwfM%3A) David From: HENRY SHONERD [mailto:hshonerd@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 12:36 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: David H Kirshner Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Worksof Art?? I have enjoyed this subject line very much, googling a lot of connections. Larry?s oxcart took me to: http://www.sgiquarterly.org/buddhism2013oct-1.html Something else I read from the NYTImes seems connected to me, since it speaks to why anyone might want to be a teacher: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/24/upshot/first-rule-of-the-job-hunt-find-something-you-love-to-do.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=Trending&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article Henry On Jul 29, 2016, at 10:42 AM, Lplarry > wrote: David, The Buddhist depiction of the oxcart in multiple images with each image *dissolving* something (reified??) and the last caption being identical to the *original* demonstrating this process of dissolution to arrive at the *same* place but transformed. The ordinary become extraordinary. Rein may suggest a particular illustration. It is thought provoking Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: David H Kirshner From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 29 11:35:30 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 18:35:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: <2EB5E799-19DA-42B0-AE50-6E4FC1C399F6@gmail.com> References: , <2EB5E799-19DA-42B0-AE50-6E4FC1C399F6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry, This revealing of the self on demand and concealing of the self on demand is something that women suffer a lot. Largely, it boils down to appearances rather than on the topic at hand. The part that makes it undignified is that it is expected upon demand. It is an explanation I offer why the Democratic nominee is defensive about how she displays a self. Herself. I don't care if she isn't charming and glamourous. Or fill-in-the blank about what makes a self authentic. If a person is standing there, that person has a dignified self present. Don't you think it's great that it's a new world? Geraldine was nominated in 1988 to be the #2 with Walter Mondale. That is almost 30 years ago. My questions have less to do with the display of self of a presidential candidate and wondering what has taken so long? What exists in our society to create hierarchies of selves? What is wrong with equal despite differences (and what is wrong with separation because of differences)? Where does this American myth of the rugged individual arise from? Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 29 12:03:45 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 19:03:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Worksof Art?? In-Reply-To: <7E25FA61-B16B-4135-917F-FA6DCD96FB60@gmail.com> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com>, <7E25FA61-B16B-4135-917F-FA6DCD96FB60@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I would like to recommend Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own. Or even, Orlando. If the connection of self and gender is something worth your examination. Not to deter discourse that derives from Buddhist practice, but in Vedic thought, self is considered all that is here. That there is no separation, and the world is an infinite appearance of dependencies, a concept that Buddhists have borrowed, if I am not mistaken. However, in Vedic thought, as I understand, the self is inclusive of everything, appearances, changing moments, etc. because everything here is you. It is a question of understanding the truth of that assertion, of clearing away the obstructions that allow you see that for yourself. So the infinite dependencies are not what "makes" the self, but the self includes these appearing infinite dependencies. Like the movie characters of the movie are dependent upon the movie screen. One problem that is also warranted in this discussion is the difference between mind and self. We usually make the mistake of that which changes to be the true self and then we are dismayed when the change occurs. This has an appearance of becoming. So we consider the equation to be mind = self and self = mind. But this isn't the case. It's just an appearance. That is why Buddhists can say there is no self. If one takes the mind to be the self, they are correct. Vedantins also say mind is not the self. However, we also say the self is the mind, and the sky, and the ocean, and my coffee and pastry, and this post, too. But that's probably more than you bargained for. :) Kind regards, Annalisa From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Fri Jul 29 12:09:41 2016 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 15:09:41 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, Message-ID: Celebrating hillary is tantamount to enslaved africans of haiti celebrating toussaint louverture as the first black slaveowner on the island of st. Domingue. ?That is absurd. ?What is feminist about hillary? ?She is a war-mongering liar in drag (Ronald Reagan in lipstick). ?Essentially, hillary had to become a white man to succeed in the american social structure of class inequality; just like Obama. ?This is the problematic of postmodern and poststructural thought, the emphasis on the body as a sight for representing an alternative discourse is absurd. ? Hillary is just as fascist, racist, and mysoginistic as trump! ?I did not celebrate obama for being a black-skinned, white masked president, and I will not revel in the accomplishments of a skirt-suit wearing neoliberal fascist! Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Annalisa Aguilar Date: 7/29/2016 1:45 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] I just think it's great, more than great, ...that a woman has finally been nominated to be president of my country - almost 100 years since women's suffrage. Just in case no one noticed on this list. I also think it's of note that when Obama was nominated in 2008 that John McCain congratulated Barak Obama for making history. Notice the lack of acknowledgement in the same party for this historic nomination. Instead, that nominee is screaming to have this nominee put in jail. What does that mean? Isn't that typical of that kind of mentality from that kind of a man? And hasn't that been the history of women? to be a woman locked up and to have her liberties removed for trying to make a difference in the lives of others and for herself? to be silenced and then have her sanity questioned? Her body taken away from her. Imagine *the courage* it takes to get up in front of the world despite that history and despite that treatment and still say, "I want to do this job and I want to do it with you, together." Whether you like her or not, you have to consider that. It is marvelous that Bernie Sanders is doing what he can to heal the rift in the Democratic party.? He's done a great job to bring attention to the issues and I hope it's the beginning of a re-turn to the left. I am also glad to hear that many Bernie supporters are going to continue fighting toward the goal of creating a more equal society even after Bernie returns to the senate. I plan to join them in that endeavor. Now is the time to come together and make sure a megalomaniac does not take over the free world. I hope you are all listening. There are about 100 days until the election. We all must act. I myself plan to volunteer, though I am not sure at this point where or how. If anyone knows of ways of acting as a responsible citizen in this election, I hope you will give a shout out on this list and provide suggestions. Let's come up with ideas. Additionally, I wish to acknowledge that I know this list is not for political discussions and I am not wanting to bait a complaining discourse here that would become inflamed or antagonistic, but I must acknowledge that history is happening right now, and we each have in our reach the means to help make a difference in our futures in some way or another. We are all citizens and we must work together despite differences. To listen and to learn and to love one another. That is what democracy is all about. Kind regards, Annalisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 12:12:03 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 13:12:03 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: References: <2EB5E799-19DA-42B0-AE50-6E4FC1C399F6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8051AECD-4EF7-4C4A-A3CC-014772FBCB91@gmail.com> Annalisa, If Hillary is elected, what kind of potential is there for a change in public discourse around gender? Perhaps you already have answered me in your posts? Something in Barack?s presidency around public discourse around race? Hillary used the word ?promise? in her acceptance speech, as if a prophecy from the Bible. I take ?potential? to be more in line with the chat. Namaste Henry > On Jul 29, 2016, at 12:35 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Henry, > > > This revealing of the self on demand and concealing of the self on demand is something that women suffer a lot. Largely, it boils down to appearances rather than on the topic at hand. The part that makes it undignified is that it is expected upon demand. > > > It is an explanation I offer why the Democratic nominee is defensive about how she displays a self. Herself. > > > I don't care if she isn't charming and glamourous. Or fill-in-the blank about what makes a self authentic. If a person is standing there, that person has a dignified self present. > > > Don't you think it's great that it's a new world? > > > Geraldine was nominated in 1988 to be the #2 with Walter Mondale. That is almost 30 years ago. My questions have less to do with the display of self of a presidential candidate and wondering what has taken so long? > > > What exists in our society to create hierarchies of selves? > > > What is wrong with equal despite differences (and what is wrong with separation because of differences)? > > > Where does this American myth of the rugged individual arise from? > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Fri Jul 29 12:24:55 2016 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 19:24:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I really want to believe that Hillary is a better option than Trump (who wouldn't be?) but my wife shared this with me (https://m.reddit.com/r/GaryJohnson/comments/4uylf9/why_i_could_never_vote_for_hillary_or_trump/ )and it further underlines the danger that large numbers of democrats may be reluctant to vote for Hillary even if this risks letting the Donald in. Really scary times! Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Sent: 29 July 2016 20:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, Celebrating hillary is tantamount to enslaved africans of haiti celebrating toussaint louverture as the first black slaveowner on the island of st. Domingue. That is absurd. What is feminist about hillary? She is a war-mongering liar in drag (Ronald Reagan in lipstick). Essentially, hillary had to become a white man to succeed in the american social structure of class inequality; just like Obama. This is the problematic of postmodern and poststructural thought, the emphasis on the body as a sight for representing an alternative discourse is absurd. Hillary is just as fascist, racist, and mysoginistic as trump! I did not celebrate obama for being a black-skinned, white masked president, and I will not revel in the accomplishments of a skirt-suit wearing neoliberal fascist! Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Annalisa Aguilar Date: 7/29/2016 1:45 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] I just think it's great, more than great, ...that a woman has finally been nominated to be president of my country - almost 100 years since women's suffrage. Just in case no one noticed on this list. I also think it's of note that when Obama was nominated in 2008 that John McCain congratulated Barak Obama for making history. Notice the lack of acknowledgement in the same party for this historic nomination. Instead, that nominee is screaming to have this nominee put in jail. What does that mean? Isn't that typical of that kind of mentality from that kind of a man? And hasn't that been the history of women? to be a woman locked up and to have her liberties removed for trying to make a difference in the lives of others and for herself? to be silenced and then have her sanity questioned? Her body taken away from her. Imagine *the courage* it takes to get up in front of the world despite that history and despite that treatment and still say, "I want to do this job and I want to do it with you, together." Whether you like her or not, you have to consider that. It is marvelous that Bernie Sanders is doing what he can to heal the rift in the Democratic party. He's done a great job to bring attention to the issues and I hope it's the beginning of a re-turn to the left. I am also glad to hear that many Bernie supporters are going to continue fighting toward the goal of creating a more equal society even after Bernie returns to the senate. I plan to join them in that endeavor. Now is the time to come together and make sure a megalomaniac does not take over the free world. I hope you are all listening. There are about 100 days until the election. We all must act. I myself plan to volunteer, though I am not sure at this point where or how. If anyone knows of ways of acting as a responsible citizen in this election, I hope you will give a shout out on this list and provide suggestions. Let's come up with ideas. Additionally, I wish to acknowledge that I know this list is not for political discussions and I am not wanting to bait a complaining discourse here that would become inflamed or antagonistic, but I must acknowledge that history is happening right now, and we each have in our reach the means to help make a difference in our futures in some way or another. We are all citizens and we must work together despite differences. To listen and to learn and to love one another. That is what democracy is all about. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Fri Jul 29 12:42:43 2016 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 15:42:43 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, Message-ID: <1ghncupwaunf3wxj1o9fl7p2.1469821363190@email.android.com> Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil... jerry garcia Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Rod Parker-Rees Date: 7/29/2016 3:24 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, I really want to believe that Hillary is a better option than Trump (who wouldn't be?) but my wife shared this with me (https://m.reddit.com/r/GaryJohnson/comments/4uylf9/why_i_could_never_vote_for_hillary_or_trump/ )and it further underlines the danger that large numbers of democrats may be reluctant to vote for Hillary even if this risks letting the Donald in. Really scary times! Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Sent: 29 July 2016 20:10 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, Celebrating hillary is tantamount to enslaved africans of haiti celebrating toussaint louverture as the first black slaveowner on the island of st. Domingue.? That is absurd.? What is feminist about hillary?? She is a war-mongering liar in drag (Ronald Reagan in lipstick).? Essentially, hillary had to become a white man to succeed in the american social structure of class inequality; just like Obama.? This is the problematic of postmodern and poststructural thought, the emphasis on the body as a sight for representing an alternative discourse is absurd. Hillary is just as fascist, racist, and mysoginistic as trump!? I did not celebrate obama for being a black-skinned, white masked president, and I will not revel in the accomplishments of a skirt-suit wearing neoliberal fascist! Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Annalisa Aguilar Date: 7/29/2016? 1:45 PM? (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l]?? I just think it's great, more than great, ...that a woman has finally been nominated to be president of my country - almost 100 years since women's suffrage. Just in case no one noticed on this list. I also think it's of note that when Obama was nominated in 2008 that John McCain congratulated Barak Obama for making history. Notice the lack of acknowledgement in the same party for this historic nomination. Instead, that nominee is screaming to have this nominee put in jail. What does that mean? Isn't that typical of that kind of mentality from that kind of a man? And hasn't that been the history of women? to be a woman locked up and to have her liberties removed for trying to make a difference in the lives of others and for herself? to be silenced and then have her sanity questioned? Her body taken away from her. Imagine *the courage* it takes to get up in front of the world despite that history and despite that treatment and still say, "I want to do this job and I want to do it with you, together." Whether you like her or not, you have to consider that. It is marvelous that Bernie Sanders is doing what he can to heal the rift in the Democratic party.? He's done a great job to bring attention to the issues and I hope it's the beginning of a re-turn to the left. I am also glad to hear that many Bernie supporters are going to continue fighting toward the goal of creating a more equal society even after Bernie returns to the senate. I plan to join them in that endeavor. Now is the time to come together and make sure a megalomaniac does not take over the free world. I hope you are all listening. There are about 100 days until the election. We all must act. I myself plan to volunteer, though I am not sure at this point where or how. If anyone knows of ways of acting as a responsible citizen in this election, I hope you will give a shout out on this list and provide suggestions. Let's come up with ideas. Additionally, I wish to acknowledge that I know this list is not for political discussions and I am not wanting to bait a complaining discourse here that would become inflamed or antagonistic, but I must acknowledge that history is happening right now, and we each have in our reach the means to help make a difference in our futures in some way or another. We are all citizens and we must work together despite differences. To listen and to learn and to love one another. That is what democracy is all about. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 13:05:50 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 14:05:50 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: <1ghncupwaunf3wxj1o9fl7p2.1469821363190@email.android.com> References: <1ghncupwaunf3wxj1o9fl7p2.1469821363190@email.android.com> Message-ID: <81068844-672A-4A3C-BE85-F98368921C8E@gmail.com> These recent turns remind me of the election of W. I am sure one could argue that Gore was the lesser of two evils, evil none the less. Suppose Gore had been elected. What was the potential? Only evil? Is there any hope? Or is that for sissies? Henry > On Jul 29, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > > > > Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil... jerry garcia > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Rod Parker-Rees > Date: 7/29/2016 3:24 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, > > I really want to believe that Hillary is a better option than Trump (who wouldn't be?) but my wife shared this with me (https://m.reddit.com/r/GaryJohnson/comments/4uylf9/why_i_could_never_vote_for_hillary_or_trump/ )and it further underlines the danger that large numbers of democrats may be reluctant to vote for Hillary even if this risks letting the Donald in. > > Really scary times! > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > Sent: 29 July 2016 20:10 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, > > > > Celebrating hillary is tantamount to enslaved africans of haiti celebrating toussaint louverture as the first black slaveowner on the island of st. Domingue. That is absurd. What is feminist about hillary? She is a war-mongering liar in drag (Ronald Reagan in lipstick). Essentially, hillary had to become a white man to succeed in the american social structure of class inequality; just like Obama. This is the problematic of postmodern and poststructural thought, the emphasis on the body as a sight for representing an alternative discourse is absurd. > Hillary is just as fascist, racist, and mysoginistic as trump! I did not celebrate obama for being a black-skinned, white masked president, and I will not revel in the accomplishments of a skirt-suit wearing neoliberal fascist! > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Annalisa Aguilar > Date: 7/29/2016 1:45 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] I just think it's great, more than great, > > ...that a woman has finally been nominated to be president of my country - almost 100 years since women's suffrage. > > > Just in case no one noticed on this list. > > > I also think it's of note that when Obama was nominated in 2008 that John McCain congratulated Barak Obama for making history. Notice the lack of acknowledgement in the same party for this historic nomination. Instead, that nominee is screaming to have this nominee put in jail. > > > What does that mean? > > > Isn't that typical of that kind of mentality from that kind of a man? And hasn't that been the history of women? to be a woman locked up and to have her liberties removed for trying to make a difference in the lives of others and for herself? to be silenced and then have her sanity questioned? Her body taken away from her. Imagine *the courage* it takes to get up in front of the world despite that history and despite that treatment and still say, "I want to do this job and I want to do it with you, together." > > > Whether you like her or not, you have to consider that. > > > It is marvelous that Bernie Sanders is doing what he can to heal the rift in the Democratic party. He's done a great job to bring attention to the issues and I hope it's the beginning of a re-turn to the left. I am also glad to hear that many Bernie supporters are going to continue fighting toward the goal of creating a more equal society even after Bernie returns to the senate. I plan to join them in that endeavor. Now is the time to come together and make sure a megalomaniac does not take over the free world. I hope you are all listening. There are about 100 days until the election. We all must act. > > > I myself plan to volunteer, though I am not sure at this point where or how. If anyone knows of ways of acting as a responsible citizen in this election, I hope you will give a shout out on this list and provide suggestions. Let's come up with ideas. > > > Additionally, I wish to acknowledge that I know this list is not for political discussions and I am not wanting to bait a complaining discourse here that would become inflamed or antagonistic, but I must acknowledge that history is happening right now, and we each have in our reach the means to help make a difference in our futures in some way or another. > > > We are all citizens and we must work together despite differences. > > > To listen and to learn and to love one another. > > > That is what democracy is all about. > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > From dangthikimanh@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 14:52:40 2016 From: dangthikimanh@gmail.com (dangthikimanh@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 07:52:40 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Worksof Art?? In-Reply-To: <7E25FA61-B16B-4135-917F-FA6DCD96FB60@gmail.com> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <7E25FA61-B16B-4135-917F-FA6DCD96FB60@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1E91B025-0B05-4A38-9B34-999AA813E128@gmail.com> Hi Henry, Thanks very much for sharing interesting and thought provoking articles. And yes, I would agree that they relate deeply to the concept of identity... And of course this opens a complex line of the conceptualisation and definition of identity. Kind regards, Kim Sent from my iPhone > On 30 Jul 2016, at 3:36 am, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > I have enjoyed this subject line very much, googling a lot of connections. Larry?s oxcart took me to: > > http://www.sgiquarterly.org/buddhism2013oct-1.html > > Something else I read from the NYTImes seems connected to me, since it speaks to why anyone might want to be a teacher: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/24/upshot/first-rule-of-the-job-hunt-find-something-you-love-to-do.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=Trending&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article > > Henry > > > >> On Jul 29, 2016, at 10:42 AM, Lplarry wrote: >> >> David, >> The Buddhist depiction of the oxcart in multiple images with each image *dissolving* something (reified??) and the last caption being identical to the *original* demonstrating this process of dissolution to arrive at the *same* place but transformed. The ordinary become extraordinary. >> Rein may suggest a particular illustration. It is thought provoking >> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >> >> From: David H Kirshner > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 29 15:17:17 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 22:17:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Um... I was not celebrating Hillary per se. I was celebrating that a woman has been nominated to a major party. I was celebrating a society that is finally accepting the possibility of a woman to an elected office of power, the highest in the land. Is the actual candidate problematic? Of course she is, just for being a woman. Can we ever expect any candidate to be scott-free of problems? If that person is human, there will always some fault and there will always be someone finding fault, whether these faults are true or not. How's that for an epistemology? Are there problems with the entire political system? Sure! Are there problems with a 2-party government? Absolutely. I maintain a resistance to cynicism though. If we want a better system we have to work for it. Overturning Citizens United and making it an amendment is a great goal. So would an equal rights amendment. I'm willing to work so those possibilities become realities! Would you? Once those are in place, it would remain for us to see if the system would change into something more equitable. It wouldn't be up to any individual president. It would be up to us. What happens in Haiti though is difficult for me to comment, even if it is theoretical. Do the people in Haiti deserve equality and liberty? Of course they do. But that's about the extent of what I could say. I'm not really understanding what it means to say "the emphasis of the body as a sight [sic] for representing alternative discourse is absurd." It's sort of all we have, at the moment, are bodies, and these bodies have discourses between and among one another. These bodies are not perfect entity-beings, nor do they make perfect discourses. We must accept them as we find them. And we must nourish them and be kind to them. Unless one identifies without having a body, I suppose. In that case, I'm not sure what a site of discourse would be without a body. Kind of like is there a sound if no one is present to hear the tree fall in the forest? Like That? Actually you make me laugh, Paul, to equate all people seeking electoral power to make change as being identical to being white men. Could that be a little fascist to say that? Because aren't you really saying that only white men can have power? You don't believe that, do you? It may very well be that the culture of power is the culture of white men, but I don't think that it's that way essentially. Just because it has been that way doesn't mean it will remain that way. Also, Hillary wears pantsuits, by the way. Is the pantsuit an emblem of power? Not sure about that. I find it funny that a pantsuit is even called a pantsuit. If that's the case, then all men wear pantsuits too! :) I would not mind to see any elected official no matter the gender, in a dress. suit + man = man in a suit suit + woman = woman in a pantsuit. strange. What I wonder is whether there is some confusion of association when considering the culture of power, the culture of fashion, and the culture of race. I don't believe they can be necessarily extricated like an onion, mustard, and pickle from my sandwich. Still, while they do seem to appear in the same dialogue-sandwich, they are not one and the same. I want to see, if this candidate is elected, if she ends up being truly neoliberal. If she is, then her acceptance speech is chock full of many false promises and even lies. I still prefer her to the other condiment, I mean, candidate. If she is lying and making empty promises, then I would feel compelled to use the democratic process to fight her. The struggle continues, as Bernie says. Unfortunately as is the case with all candidates, they can only offer to scrutiny their previous histories of what they have done in office, along with what they SAY they will do in office. As far as being a hawk, it might be because she was a NY senator during 9/11. I think it would be easy for anyone to be a hawk in that scenario. It's odd that you say she is misogynist, but OK. I haven't seen it. Calling people names without considering a person's history seems shallow. If you ask me. I'm going to give her a chance, because she has done a lot for women and for children, not just in the US but in the world. "Human rights are women's rights and women's rights are human rights." Even to make that statement is a worthy incantation for what it would materialize on this plane of reality. It's an utterance I don't mind repeated into the future indefinitely, echoing through all forests and past all mountains and across all seas, every city, every town, everywhere there are human bodies. Is it possible that if human rights were women's rights, and vice versa, that this would exclude men? Perhaps that is naive of me to think that it wouldn't. But I can't see how it would be. I'd like to think that accommodating for women would immediately mean accommodating for men as well. I'd be willing to reflect upon that, if only because, as historical fact, a declaration that all men are created equal hasn't immediately meant that women were included in the equation, and then again, all men did not mean all. In fact, how it landed: votes from black men were counted before white women's vote were counted. So there's that. It's great to have a democracy where we can all speak so candidly! It's amazing. I love it. :) Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Jul 29 15:24:27 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 15:24:27 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: <81068844-672A-4A3C-BE85-F98368921C8E@gmail.com> References: <1ghncupwaunf3wxj1o9fl7p2.1469821363190@email.android.com> <81068844-672A-4A3C-BE85-F98368921C8E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Interesting to come back from a few weeks away, and in Canada, the escape route de jour, no less. Those of my generation who voted for Eldridge Cleaver instead of accepting the lesser evil of Hubert Humphrey and got Nixon, along with the many on this list who can remember what voting for Ralph Nader brought us, as Henry has reminded us, should re-cover their history. This time if that history is repeated we will get a result that appears to be, at best, inviting Mussolini to come back from the dead with nuclear weapons sufficient, without any help from the rest of the world, to end the human race. Maybe that lesser of two evils suits someone? GREAT discussions the past few weeks on XMCA! Discussing politics here is generally a lousy idea. But its lousy times. I attach two photos from the tip of Cape Breton. Nice to be home and back on xmca. I have a lot of catching up to do! mike On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 1:05 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > These recent turns remind me of the election of W. I am sure one could > argue that Gore was the lesser of two evils, evil none the less. Suppose > Gore had been elected. What was the potential? Only evil? Is there any > hope? Or is that for sissies? > Henry > > > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil... > jerry garcia > > > > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Rod Parker-Rees > > Date: 7/29/2016 3:24 PM (GMT-05:00) > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, > > > > I really want to believe that Hillary is a better option than Trump (who > wouldn't be?) but my wife shared this with me ( > https://m.reddit.com/r/GaryJohnson/comments/4uylf9/why_i_could_never_vote_for_hillary_or_trump/ > )and it further underlines the danger that large numbers of democrats may > be reluctant to vote for Hillary even if this risks letting the Donald in. > > > > Really scary times! > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > Sent: 29 July 2016 20:10 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, > > > > > > > > Celebrating hillary is tantamount to enslaved africans of haiti > celebrating toussaint louverture as the first black slaveowner on the > island of st. Domingue. That is absurd. What is feminist about hillary? > She is a war-mongering liar in drag (Ronald Reagan in lipstick). > Essentially, hillary had to become a white man to succeed in the american > social structure of class inequality; just like Obama. This is the > problematic of postmodern and poststructural thought, the emphasis on the > body as a sight for representing an alternative discourse is absurd. > > Hillary is just as fascist, racist, and mysoginistic as trump! I did > not celebrate obama for being a black-skinned, white masked president, and > I will not revel in the accomplishments of a skirt-suit wearing neoliberal > fascist! > > > > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note? 4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Annalisa Aguilar > > Date: 7/29/2016 1:45 PM (GMT-05:00) > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] I just think it's great, more than great, > > > > ...that a woman has finally been nominated to be president of my country > - almost 100 years since women's suffrage. > > > > > > Just in case no one noticed on this list. > > > > > > I also think it's of note that when Obama was nominated in 2008 that > John McCain congratulated Barak Obama for making history. Notice the lack > of acknowledgement in the same party for this historic nomination. Instead, > that nominee is screaming to have this nominee put in jail. > > > > > > What does that mean? > > > > > > Isn't that typical of that kind of mentality from that kind of a man? > And hasn't that been the history of women? to be a woman locked up and to > have her liberties removed for trying to make a difference in the lives of > others and for herself? to be silenced and then have her sanity questioned? > Her body taken away from her. Imagine *the courage* it takes to get up in > front of the world despite that history and despite that treatment and > still say, "I want to do this job and I want to do it with you, together." > > > > > > Whether you like her or not, you have to consider that. > > > > > > It is marvelous that Bernie Sanders is doing what he can to heal the > rift in the Democratic party. He's done a great job to bring attention to > the issues and I hope it's the beginning of a re-turn to the left. I am > also glad to hear that many Bernie supporters are going to continue > fighting toward the goal of creating a more equal society even after Bernie > returns to the senate. I plan to join them in that endeavor. Now is the > time to come together and make sure a megalomaniac does not take over the > free world. I hope you are all listening. There are about 100 days until > the election. We all must act. > > > > > > I myself plan to volunteer, though I am not sure at this point where or > how. If anyone knows of ways of acting as a responsible citizen in this > election, I hope you will give a shout out on this list and provide > suggestions. Let's come up with ideas. > > > > > > Additionally, I wish to acknowledge that I know this list is not for > political discussions and I am not wanting to bait a complaining discourse > here that would become inflamed or antagonistic, but I must acknowledge > that history is happening right now, and we each have in our reach the > means to help make a difference in our futures in some way or another. > > > > > > We are all citizens and we must work together despite differences. > > > > > > To listen and to learn and to love one another. > > > > > > That is what democracy is all about. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0089.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 368860 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160729/8a93193f/attachment-0002.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0074.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 320972 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160729/8a93193f/attachment-0003.jpe From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 29 15:40:32 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 22:40:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Rod, I want to believe that she is a better option than he is, too. If people decide to not vote for her because of her husband, that is their choice. I vote for the person, not the person's spouse. Bringing up all the ugliness of sexual stories associated with the candidates seems to be a red herring, if you ask me. That's not to confirm or deny these his-stories, it's just to say it's more sensationalism. It's just another way to not talk about the issues. Did anyone notice in the speech last night that her husband was referred to as "Explainer-in-chief"? Wonder what that meant...? In any case, I'm just happy that a woman has been nominated for the office of President. To be able to rant over the inadequacies of the woman-candidate is far more interesting than having no woman-candidates to rant about at all. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 29 16:04:18 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 23:04:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: References: <1ghncupwaunf3wxj1o9fl7p2.1469821363190@email.android.com> <81068844-672A-4A3C-BE85-F98368921C8E@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Hello, I don't believe discussing history has to be discussing politics, but it is interesting how they are intersect. I agree with Mike that discussing politics on XMCA is a lousy idea. And he's right it's also lousy times. My attempt was to discuss history, in case anyone cares to make a distinction. At least I attempted to possess some self-control not to discuss too deeply the body politic. I hoped to discuss futures, and how we might be a part of that. We should be concerned about our futures and consider what we can do about all that on the ground. It's not just about picking a winning candidate, nor complaining about the choices printed on the ballet, but yeah, in a bourgeois society it's easy to want more choices than what's on a Starbucks beverage menu, or should I say less choices than on a Starbucks beverage menu? Perhaps thinking about political processes as a menu choice is the problem. Maybe we need to become citizens again. Kind regards, Annalisa From schuckthemonkey@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 16:17:56 2016 From: schuckthemonkey@gmail.com (Christopher Schuck) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 19:17:56 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Worksof Art?? In-Reply-To: References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <7E25FA61-B16B-4135-917F-FA6DCD96FB60@gmail.com> Message-ID: "..like the movie characters of a movie are dependent on the movie screen." I really like that analogy. Yet it also suggests that our self and its infinite dependencies -- all that is here -- can still be regarded as a fiction or illusion of sorts - I don't know whether that was your intention, Annalisa. Thanks for the brief primer in Vedic thought, which I knew nothing about. Also on the subject of self and gender: how about excerpts from the novel Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides? I'm thinking about the part where the main character describes how he was always Apollonian, but must now contend with the Dionysian emerging within him/her. And what about Kafka? Either The Trial (for erasure/disappearance of identity) or Metamorphasis (for sudden transformation of identity). Rein was absolutely correct earlier about the inadequacy of mindfulness as popularly understood for doing justice to Buddhist thought or its complex notions of self.and no-self. It was very glib of me to lump those together. I think what I was really trying to get at is that as an *experiential* exercise, an appropriate guided mindfulness meditation practice might be a very useful and accessible way of challenging some of the habitual frames of mind David is hoping to shake up. There are certainly some good exercises out there focused on decentering, unselfing, and so forth, that may not necessarily have a lot of Buddhist cash value but could still be relevant to his project. Chris On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi, > > > I would like to recommend Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own. Or even, > Orlando. If the connection of self and gender is something worth your > examination. > > > Not to deter discourse that derives from Buddhist practice, but in Vedic > thought, self is considered all that is here. That there is no separation, > and the world is an infinite appearance of dependencies, a concept that > Buddhists have borrowed, if I am not mistaken. > > > However, in Vedic thought, as I understand, the self is inclusive of > everything, appearances, changing moments, etc. because everything here is > you. It is a question of understanding the truth of that assertion, of > clearing away the obstructions that allow you see that for yourself. > > > So the infinite dependencies are not what "makes" the self, but the self > includes these appearing infinite dependencies. Like the movie characters > of the movie are dependent upon the movie screen. > > > One problem that is also warranted in this discussion is the difference > between mind and self. We usually make the mistake of that which changes to > be the true self and then we are dismayed when the change occurs. This has > an appearance of becoming. So we consider the equation to be mind = self > and self = mind. But this isn't the case. It's just an appearance. That is > why Buddhists can say there is no self. If one takes the mind to be the > self, they are correct. > > > Vedantins also say mind is not the self. However, we also say the self is > the mind, and the sky, and the ocean, and my coffee and pastry, and this > post, too. But that's probably more than you bargained for. :) > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 16:34:59 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 08:34:59 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Worksof Art?? In-Reply-To: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry, Not sure if we are talking about the same one, but there are the 10 Oxherding pictures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls), the first of which is called "In search of the ox". The ox is often considered to be a metaphor for the self (note that the ox is departs in screen 7 and is entirely gone in screens 8, 9, and 10). Coincidentally, I just happen to have spent much of yesterday here in Seoul searching for a depiction of these. (what I got instead was an invitation to a chesa ceremony by an old man who was honoring his deceased mother. I accepted). In Seoul in search of "In search of the ox", Greg On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 1:42 AM, Lplarry wrote: > David, > The Buddhist depiction of the oxcart in multiple images with each image > *dissolving* something (reified??) and the last caption being identical to > the *original* demonstrating this process of dissolution to arrive at the > *same* place but transformed. The ordinary become extraordinary. > Rein may suggest a particular illustration. It is thought provoking > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: David H Kirshner -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 29 16:45:05 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 23:45:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Worksof Art?? In-Reply-To: References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <7E25FA61-B16B-4135-917F-FA6DCD96FB60@gmail.com> , Message-ID: I kind of wonder if all fiction has in its realm an application to experiential self. Karen Finlay's writing might also be of your criteria, David Ki. "Ladies and gentlemen, there's a surprise substitute on the dessert cart this evening. Chocolate is no longer on the menu. Instead, it's gold, gleaming honey that is being served, by the gallon and on the skin. It is of course for external use only. And it will be worn, in a thorough scalp-to-toe coating, by your host, Karen Finley, the performance artist and specialist in the imaginative use of foodstuffs." --Ben Brantlee, The New York Times ________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Christopher Schuck Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 5:17 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Worksof Art?? "..like the movie characters of a movie are dependent on the movie screen." I really like that analogy. Yet it also suggests that our self and its infinite dependencies -- all that is here -- can still be regarded as a fiction or illusion of sorts - I don't know whether that was your intention, Annalisa. Thanks for the brief primer in Vedic thought, which I knew nothing about. Also on the subject of self and gender: how about excerpts from the novel Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides? I'm thinking about the part where the main character describes how he was always Apollonian, but must now contend with the Dionysian emerging within him/her. And what about Kafka? Either The Trial (for erasure/disappearance of identity) or Metamorphasis (for sudden transformation of identity). Rein was absolutely correct earlier about the inadequacy of mindfulness as popularly understood for doing justice to Buddhist thought or its complex notions of self.and no-self. It was very glib of me to lump those together. I think what I was really trying to get at is that as an *experiential* exercise, an appropriate guided mindfulness meditation practice might be a very useful and accessible way of challenging some of the habitual frames of mind David is hoping to shake up. There are certainly some good exercises out there focused on decentering, unselfing, and so forth, that may not necessarily have a lot of Buddhist cash value but could still be relevant to his project. Chris On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi, > > > I would like to recommend Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own. Or even, > Orlando. If the connection of self and gender is something worth your > examination. > > > Not to deter discourse that derives from Buddhist practice, but in Vedic > thought, self is considered all that is here. That there is no separation, > and the world is an infinite appearance of dependencies, a concept that > Buddhists have borrowed, if I am not mistaken. > > > However, in Vedic thought, as I understand, the self is inclusive of > everything, appearances, changing moments, etc. because everything here is > you. It is a question of understanding the truth of that assertion, of > clearing away the obstructions that allow you see that for yourself. > > > So the infinite dependencies are not what "makes" the self, but the self > includes these appearing infinite dependencies. Like the movie characters > of the movie are dependent upon the movie screen. > > > One problem that is also warranted in this discussion is the difference > between mind and self. We usually make the mistake of that which changes to > be the true self and then we are dismayed when the change occurs. This has > an appearance of becoming. So we consider the equation to be mind = self > and self = mind. But this isn't the case. It's just an appearance. That is > why Buddhists can say there is no self. If one takes the mind to be the > self, they are correct. > > > Vedantins also say mind is not the self. However, we also say the self is > the mind, and the sky, and the ocean, and my coffee and pastry, and this > post, too. But that's probably more than you bargained for. :) > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 29 16:57:26 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 23:57:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and Worksof Art?? In-Reply-To: References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <7E25FA61-B16B-4135-917F-FA6DCD96FB60@gmail.com> , , Message-ID: Sorry I hit send before I intended to... --take two-- I kind of wonder if all fiction has in its realm an application for noting the experiential self. Karen Finlay's writing might also be of your criteria, David Ki. With regard to Finley: http://karenfinley.com/ "Ladies and gentlemen, there's a surprise substitute on the dessert cart this evening. Chocolate is no longer on the menu. Instead, it's gold, gleaming honey that is being served, by the gallon and on the skin. It is of course for external use only. And it will be worn, in a thorough scalp-to-toe coating, by your host, Karen Finley, the performance artist and specialist in the imaginative use of foodstuffs." --Ben Brantlee, The New York Times ---- Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 29 17:53:08 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 00:53:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: References: <1ghncupwaunf3wxj1o9fl7p2.1469821363190@email.android.com> <81068844-672A-4A3C-BE85-F98368921C8E@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Lo and behold! Of pantsuits deconstructed.... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/29/hillary-clinton-white-pantsuit-suffragettes-convention I think had W worn a white suit, or Obama, it would have been W-hyphen-weird and O-hyphen-ostentatious. It's all in the appearance of things... Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 18:38:16 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 18:38:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and WorksofArt?? In-Reply-To: References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <579c0509.c186620a.c7b96.d0a9@mx.google.com> Greg, and Rein, Yes, I was referencing these 10 frames, and the transformative journeys into dissolutions (in contrast to dispossessions) of *self* and in the final frame to be in the *same* place but this place is radically altered. Gesturing to perezhivanie there is a dialogue that may develop between the notion of no/thing (no essential *thing*) and the notion of *situation of development*. Rein, Thank you for the links to explore differing ways of *interpreting* the 10 oxcart frames. I also want to acknowledge Mike?s reference to Trump. Watching the Democratic Convention, they referenced Trump in relation to fascist *qualities*. This is not hyperbole. Also thinking of Eric Fromm, and the Frankfurt School exploring the Authoritarian personality. Zygmunt Bauman in conversation with Rein is exploring the radical alternative to the Authoritarian Personality. I would recommend reading the opening chapter (free on Kindle or Google Books). The recognition that the history of modernity includes the history of the modern *self* with definite *qualities*. A central aspect of the modern *self* is how this *self* is forming within the volatile situation of dispossession. (capitalism breeds volatile dispossession) This leads to what Zygmunt refers to as *liquid modernity* emerging from *solid or rigid modernity*. I question, when does *dissolution* of *self* as a virtue become *dispossession* of *self* (and place) leading to authoritarian dreams of control and building walls. This election in the USA is a hinge moment and there is a significant difference between Donald and Hillary. The slogan ? we must keep hope alive? is *true* Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Greg Thompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 19:39:42 2016 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 11:39:42 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie in the U.S.A! Or, when feelings contradict facts Message-ID: Speaking of perezhivanie, I wonder if we might stop for a minute to consider the collective perezhivanie of the U.S. right about now (apologies for the U.S.-centric post but perhaps this is relevant across the globe?). My guess is that this is where politics (esp. of the leftist variety) has failed us most in the last 20 years or so (perhaps long before that but I've only known well the past 20 years). These ideas were prompted by Jon Oliver's 11 minute piece about the Republican National Convention last week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNdkrtfZP8I The gist of the message here is that the Republicans are taking "feelings" for "facts" (and hence are delusional and "false-to-facts"). I agree with Oliver's assessment (or the part before the parentheses). But I also agree with Newt Gingrich's assessment that it is important to understand the feeling of the electorate (and if I might add, I think that this is the great failing of the Democratic party in recent years - the assumption that "the facts speak for themselves" and that "feelings don't matter". Is this contrary to a concern with perezhivanie). In fact I would propose this as precisely the research question is in desperate need of study right now. Namely, how do feelings come to circulate so widely? How do they spread like contagion? And what is the lifeblood and marrow that supports and sustains these feelings as they circulate through the social body? Or, more simply, how are feelings constituted? I suspect that this happens at different scales. At the broader scales, mass media are important for cultivating the particular feelings (in all their diversity) of a given historical moment by giving us the "raw facts" (note scare quotes!). And big institutions are not insignificant in this regard. But for feelings to be felt, they have to be lived in the capillaries of everyday experience where the exchange of energy happens that animates the muscle and sinew of the social body that enables movement of that body. It is this capillary action that interests me the most - what are the everyday interactions that sustain feelings in spite of facts? What are the everyday events and experiences that support and sustain the narratives that are put out by various media? (and, to be sure, the media must necessarily be responsive to these capillary actions if they hope to maintain an audience!). So I wonder is this a question of perezhivanie? Or does perezhivanie necessarily involve the situation-as-such, what we would otherwise call "the facts"? (and in which case, this wouldn't be a case of perzhivanie at all but would rather be a case of something different). (my language is catching me in a web of dualisms here: perceptions-of-the-event vs. the-event-as-such (/or "the-event-in-itself"). Perhaps perezhivanie will be opaque as long as I am caught in this web of meaning? In other words, is perezhivanie non-dualistic?) I feel this to be an important question for any democracy hoping to live up to that name. Without any attention to "feeling," then we run the risk of dismissing as delusional a massive proportion of people who live with us on this earth (latest polls show Trump trailing Clinton by just a few percentage points - is everyone on the political right deluded? Or is Newt and others on to something?). Where are feelings now? Seems Volosinov is relevant here too - perhaps in helping to link the micro- and macro- scales (with apologies to Jay L's slightly different use of these terms). What do you think, perezhivanie or not? -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jul 29 20:05:04 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 20:05:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie in the U.S.A! Or, when feelings contradictfacts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <579c1961.e4a4420a.a36f0.dc93@mx.google.com> Greg, Assuming that others tuned in to the convention, the focus on the weakness of the notion of *tolerance* (you do your thing and I will do mine and we will not interfere with each other) Generates no passion or pathos. Cory Booker expressed a different *modality* and Obama with his notion of *you carried me* expressed this alternative mode of *identity* based in *hope* for the (not yet). The notion of *creed* as inspiration. Trump also taps into *shared* feelings but very different quality and *value*. Also *ethics* which we were recently discussing (and virtues) seem relevant Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Greg Thompson From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Jul 29 20:19:39 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 03:19:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Political constructions of self vs political constructions of identity In-Reply-To: <579c0509.c186620a.c7b96.d0a9@mx.google.com> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> , <579c0509.c186620a.c7b96.d0a9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hello, Larry made a very interesting juxtaposition between conceptual constructions of self and identity and how that appears to be playing out in the election. I did not intend to blend the threads of experiential self and identity with an historical meaning of a woman candidate running for president for a major party in the American election, but it seems Larry has done that. However, I will move that conversation to a new thread, if it proves to be appropriate and acceptable to all of you. One of the problems I see in the discourse of Trump is this false notion that we must all be the same and we must all assimilate into sameness. This seems to be what fascism is all about, right? At the same time, this sameness creates otherness. Otherness is what happens to those who do not (or cannot) assimilate into this sameness. For a want of intimacy in the public sphere we long for sameness in that public sphere, and for expediency that sameness is to be a subject to Trump's strong man. On of the problems I see in the discourse of Clinton is this false notion that we must each be of a category and that category must entail a property of a particular quality of difference, but not if that category is not a category that is a sanctioned difference. (Did I get my double negatives wrong?? or did I say that right?) For example, if one identifies as a socialist, an anarchist, an atheist, an anti-christian, or is from the green party, the freedom and liberty party, etc, or an independent, or one is a hybrid of any of these various categories, or exists in a category that has not yet been defined (nor sanctioned) which 40 years ago may have been transgender for example, or today might be those who consider themselves to be polyamorous or polygamous, etc. Also, I'm using the word "category" very loosely. What I attempt to reference I hope successfully is the notion that there is something valid about pluralism (vs pluralistic). The anthropologist David Graeber makes an interesting discussion about this in his definitions of democracy as something being the default for human activity, and not an invention from Ancient Greece, which we claim to mimic in the U.S. I like his discussion. There is also something to consider in Larry's post that has to do with What Is Identity, in the sense of whether I decide my identity or my society does. Or can it be both? There is also something important to understand in the pathology of an authoritarian personality, not only as it pertains to that individual person, but how it pertains to manifesting in a society as such. If an authoritarian personality were just a category identity among many others, and of equal influence and standing, then we could accept The Donald as just another category. Like a different flavor of ice-cream. But it isn't just another category. There appears in this sense a dependence of that identity upon an other, similarly to how a king must have subjects in order to be considered king. Otherwise The Donald cannot exist. I'm not sure how to make a parallel analysis to Hillary. She certainly is a lightning rod, but I'm not sure if is entirely because she is woman, or whether it has to do that she is the wife of a disgraced former president. Maybe it is because she has had to become a politician in order to get the work done, and we share an impractical notion that any human being should be able to work in government and not become a politician. That being elected and being all together honest and forthright is an easily feasible human practice. Maybe also it has to do with the unrealistic notion that women are supposed to be unstained in their virtue and deal with others ethically, just for being a woman, as if these are essential properties of a woman. These are different contrasts and juxtapositions that I extend from Larry's discussion. I also agree with Larry that we must keep hope alive and not let despair roost upon us. Remember we have 100 days to act meaningfully. Kind regards, Annalisa From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Sat Jul 30 01:01:28 2016 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 08:01:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I don't think there is any hope of seeing a person when it comes to the election of a champion to save the nation! The whole business of wanting to vest all our hopes in a single individual seems rather mediaeval and I suspect that 'the people', seen as an electing mass, are not ready to make do with a real person. So candidates are packaged and spun and then someone who has packaged himself as being unpackaged and 'telling it like it is' has an odd appeal. The issue with Hillary is not what Bill did (or may have done) but with what she has said or done about what he did. Standing by your man is all very well up to a point but standing by (being a bystander) can also be a sign of moral indecisiveness. The issue is how much you can allow yourself not to see when your eyes are on the prize - even if the prize is getting to a position where you may be able to do a lot of good for a lot of people. Noone ever said it would be easy! Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: 29 July 2016 23:41 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, Hi Rod, I want to believe that she is a better option than he is, too. If people decide to not vote for her because of her husband, that is their choice. I vote for the person, not the person's spouse. Bringing up all the ugliness of sexual stories associated with the candidates seems to be a red herring, if you ask me. That's not to confirm or deny these his-stories, it's just to say it's more sensationalism. It's just another way to not talk about the issues. Did anyone notice in the speech last night that her husband was referred to as "Explainer-in-chief"? Wonder what that meant...? In any case, I'm just happy that a woman has been nominated for the office of President. To be able to rant over the inadequacies of the woman-candidate is far more interesting than having no woman-candidates to rant about at all. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From ewall@umich.edu Sat Jul 30 09:15:18 2016 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 11:15:18 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie in the U.S.A! Or, when feelings contradict facts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <644B4969-1F60-412A-9B5E-0304F386139E@umich.edu> Perhaps one could make the argument that STEM facts exist independent of feelings, but I am not aware of a convincing argument for the independence of the rest. A number of years ago on the Dewey list and during another presidential election a number of list members painted a gloomy future if a certain person was elected and how misled (probably dumb was general consensus) all his supporters were. The election happened - I can't remember who won- and one of the list members - who had been among the more vehement - reflected (he taught philosophy at a large university). He said roughly there is something wrong. I have intelligent articulate students and many presented 'facts' which were in opposition to those I presented. I haven't changed my mind on a number of issues, but I realize I need to carefully consider their 'facts' and reconsider my own. Perhaps there is room for mutual reconsideration (and I might say respect for another's feelings). Candidates aside where do we go from here. Regardless the outcome, it is unlikely that you are going to make the other half agree with your sentiments and it is very unlikely that either candidate will fare better and very likely that further polarization will result. Ed Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 29, 2016, at 9:39 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Speaking of perezhivanie, I wonder if we might stop for a minute to > consider the collective perezhivanie of the U.S. right about now (apologies > for the U.S.-centric post but perhaps this is relevant across the globe?). > > My guess is that this is where politics (esp. of the leftist variety) has > failed us most in the last 20 years or so (perhaps long before that but > I've only known well the past 20 years). > > These ideas were prompted by Jon Oliver's 11 minute piece about the > Republican National Convention last week: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNdkrtfZP8I > > The gist of the message here is that the Republicans are taking "feelings" > for "facts" (and hence are delusional and "false-to-facts"). I agree with > Oliver's assessment (or the part before the parentheses). > > But I also agree with Newt Gingrich's assessment that it is important to > understand the feeling of the electorate (and if I might add, I think that > this is the great failing of the Democratic party in recent years - the > assumption that "the facts speak for themselves" and that "feelings don't > matter". Is this contrary to a concern with perezhivanie). > > In fact I would propose this as precisely the research question is in > desperate need of study right now. Namely, how do feelings come to > circulate so widely? How do they spread like contagion? And what is the > lifeblood and marrow that supports and sustains these feelings as they > circulate through the social body? > > Or, more simply, how are feelings constituted? > > I suspect that this happens at different scales. At the broader scales, > mass media are important for cultivating the particular feelings (in all > their diversity) of a given historical moment by giving us the "raw facts" > (note scare quotes!). And big institutions are not insignificant in this > regard. > > But for feelings to be felt, they have to be lived in the capillaries of > everyday experience where the exchange of energy happens that animates the > muscle and sinew of the social body that enables movement of that body. > > It is this capillary action that interests me the most - what are the > everyday interactions that sustain feelings in spite of facts? What are the > everyday events and experiences that support and sustain the narratives > that are put out by various media? (and, to be sure, the media must > necessarily be responsive to these capillary actions if they hope to > maintain an audience!). > > So I wonder is this a question of perezhivanie? > > Or does perezhivanie necessarily involve the situation-as-such, what we > would otherwise call "the facts"? (and in which case, this wouldn't be a > case of perzhivanie at all but would rather be a case of something > different). > > (my language is catching me in a web of dualisms here: > perceptions-of-the-event vs. the-event-as-such (/or "the-event-in-itself"). > Perhaps perezhivanie will be opaque as long as I am caught in this web of > meaning? In other words, is perezhivanie non-dualistic?) > > I feel this to be an important question for any democracy hoping to live up > to that name. Without any attention to "feeling," then we run the risk of > dismissing as delusional a massive proportion of people who live with us on > this earth (latest polls show Trump trailing Clinton by just a few > percentage points - is everyone on the political right deluded? Or is Newt > and others on to something?). Where are feelings now? > > Seems Volosinov is relevant here too - perhaps in helping to link the > micro- and macro- scales (with apologies to Jay L's slightly different use > of these terms). > > What do you think, perezhivanie or not? > > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jul 30 10:11:01 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 10:11:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie in the U.S.A! Or, when feelings contradictfacts In-Reply-To: <644B4969-1F60-412A-9B5E-0304F386139E@umich.edu> References: <644B4969-1F60-412A-9B5E-0304F386139E@umich.edu> Message-ID: <579cdfa7.c193420a.f93a2.64db@mx.google.com> Ed, Relating to the *tone* or *resonance* of what I was watching and hearing at each convention, is it fair to say both conventions *assembled* different *modes* of discourse, different *modes* of thought? I introduce this notion of *modes* as an entry into Greg?s question of what *moves* collectives of people who *identify* in the aggregate. This does not requiring reaching systematic consensus but may be reaching a particular *mode of assemblage*. One particular mode of (becoming) through *identity* may be expressed in the notion of the *authoritarian personality* as an assemblage of certain *qualities*. The need for qualities that seem juxtaposed to the *assemblage* of qualities expressing an alternative *mode of becoming*. Assemblage is NOT system or systematic but is a different level/layer. My question is circling around this notion of *modes* of identity which catalyze particular qualities, characteristics, personality styles that *create* particular *moods, tones, resonance, in the aggregate but not in a systematic structure. Of course the *mode* of yearning for a particular *model that is systematized* is one particular type of personality. The authoritarian personality *type* was explored in response to the 1930?s and 1940?s. Today Trump may be appealing to a particular *assemblage* (mode?) with particular identifiable qualities assembling under the umbrella notion *law and order*. Bernie Saunders is assembling a *movement* under qualities of fairness and equity for all. I will leave others to decide what qualities were *scripted* at the democratic convention. I took away from Obama the appeal to assemble folks who are moved by the notion *you carried me* and now I ask of you to *carry Hillary*. The focus shifts to this other *mode* of assemblage appealing to a *creed* of (not yet) BUT (can be). This mode appeals to hope not despair and my hope is that *mode* has the greater resonance with voters Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Ed Wall From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Jul 30 11:55:11 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 18:55:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Hello Rod, Thanks for the discussion! With regard to authenticity in a candidate, I don't know if it's possible to have authenticity in a candidate, just as you say, regardless of hope. But is it possible to refrain from cynicism? Is cynicism an essential ingredient when acting as a voter in an election? Because I prefer to refrain from cynicism, does that mean I must be slotted into a category judgment of naivet?? Or that it means I am blind to a candidate's flaws? Or that I am looking for a messiah to lead me to the promised land? (I'm not implying that you are saying that, by the way). Being a politician is a strange calling. For Hillary it seems to have begun at an early age, as it did for Bill. It's not a life I would pick, and by the numbers, few do. I suspect we do not know what it is like, but one thing that they seem to have in common is they came from hardscrabble lives, or their parents did. And they seem to share a desire to make the world a better place, they have the appearance to seek social justice. That seems quite rare these days. I cannot say anything definitive about Hillary's actions in reference to Bill, in her defense. I suggest however that if she becomes president and then divorces him once she moves into the White House, it will likely mean she remained married to him out of convenience and a will to power, as you imply. But if she doesn't divorce him, then what does that mean? it could mean that she takes her marriage vows seriously. She seems to be a religious person, so perhaps she believes in the marriage. That is possible too. It could also mean she is an enabler, or all of the above. This is all speculation, right? Sometimes when your opportunities are few and your opponents are many, making compromises to get to a place to get things done is your only opportunity. A woman frequently must make that kind of deal, and when she does, I find that it's considered a lot heavier a burden than its equivalent circumstance for a man. I feel there is a false sense of outrage displayed when women are caught making compromises, and this response goes over the top. It invokes the dichotomy of the saint/whore and the history that comes with it. Obviously that is my opinion and I have a strong bias, but perhaps the literature backs me up. It doesn't mean that I'm willing to give a badly-behaving person a pass just because she is a woman or to condemn a man because he is not a woman. I'm just making an observation of the measures of outrage and comparing them. Last I checked, we live in a society that lives by the code "innocent until proven guilty." It is not "guilty because of numerous suspicions, sordid associations, and awful rumors and accusations posted on the internet." Until Bill has been convicted of crimes it is difficult to measure the sagacity of Hillary to stick by him. I'm not saying that in defense of either of them, just from an observation that the problem is difficult to parse if I want to live by the credo "innocent until proven guilty." Interestingly, it seems now possible today for a man to run for president and to make sarcastic comments to encourage a foreign power to influence his own election through leaking private discussions of the opposing party. I'm waiting for the outrage on that one. That seems to border an act of treason, especially if I might compare this with stories and accusations slogged about Edward Snowden. Sometimes what people say about me in private is simply none of my business. People should have the right to think and speak privately, knowing that it is private. Imagine a world where that isn't allowed? That there is no privacy and no freedom of speaking candidly. I'm waiting for the outrage expressed for a candidate to openly embrace a foreign power that has a past of being adversarial to western freedoms. Does it matter that it was a sarcastic remark? Where is the outrage? I believe that Hillary loves her country, I don't think that is fraudulent. I'm not so sure about the opponent. The point I hope I have made is that I don't think we come to our analysis about people, particularly those in the public forum, without filtering through gendered expectations, among other expectations of course. All I'm requesting is that we examine those expectations and determine whether we are being fair about using them. Kind regards, Annalisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Jul 30 12:39:09 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 13:39:09 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: I just think it's great, more than great, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5849CC7E-D1D3-430F-99D6-F50216FC7E08@gmail.com> Annalisa, I am so hoping that the outrage over Trump?s nod to Russia as a way to out Hillary?s emails leads to denying him security briefings. Of course, that would require a decision by the Republican-dominated Senate. I have wondered how Trump can take the oath of office that pledges defending the constitution and defending the republic from foreign foes (not just his long list of domestic foes). Hitler got the cat?s seat in Germany when he was named as chancellor in 1933. Trump elected? This is certainly interesting regarding selves from private to public. And on subject (the American people) and object (the American people). It?s all so fractal. Henry > On Jul 30, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello Rod, > > Thanks for the discussion! > > With regard to authenticity in a candidate, I don't know if it's possible to have authenticity in a candidate, just as you say, regardless of hope. But is it possible to refrain from cynicism? Is cynicism an essential ingredient when acting as a voter in an election? > > Because I prefer to refrain from cynicism, does that mean I must be slotted into a category judgment of naivet?? Or that it means I am blind to a candidate's flaws? Or that I am looking for a messiah to lead me to the promised land? > > (I'm not implying that you are saying that, by the way). > > Being a politician is a strange calling. For Hillary it seems to have begun at an early age, as it did for Bill. It's not a life I would pick, and by the numbers, few do. I suspect we do not know what it is like, but one thing that they seem to have in common is they came from hardscrabble lives, or their parents did. And they seem to share a desire to make the world a better place, they have the appearance to seek social justice. That seems quite rare these days. > > I cannot say anything definitive about Hillary's actions in reference to Bill, in her defense. I suggest however that if she becomes president and then divorces him once she moves into the White House, it will likely mean she remained married to him out of convenience and a will to power, as you imply. > > But if she doesn't divorce him, then what does that mean? it could mean that she takes her marriage vows seriously. She seems to be a religious person, so perhaps she believes in the marriage. That is possible too. > > It could also mean she is an enabler, or all of the above. This is all speculation, right? > > Sometimes when your opportunities are few and your opponents are many, making compromises to get to a place to get things done is your only opportunity. A woman frequently must make that kind of deal, and when she does, I find that it's considered a lot heavier a burden than its equivalent circumstance for a man. I feel there is a false sense of outrage displayed when women are caught making compromises, and this response goes over the top. It invokes the dichotomy of the saint/whore and the history that comes with it. Obviously that is my opinion and I have a strong bias, but perhaps the literature backs me up. It doesn't mean that I'm willing to give a badly-behaving person a pass just because she is a woman or to condemn a man because he is not a woman. I'm just making an observation of the measures of outrage and comparing them. > > Last I checked, we live in a society that lives by the code "innocent until proven guilty." It is not "guilty because of numerous suspicions, sordid associations, and awful rumors and accusations posted on the internet." Until Bill has been convicted of crimes it is difficult to measure the sagacity of Hillary to stick by him. I'm not saying that in defense of either of them, just from an observation that the problem is difficult to parse if I want to live by the credo "innocent until proven guilty." > > Interestingly, it seems now possible today for a man to run for president and to make sarcastic comments to encourage a foreign power to influence his own election through leaking private discussions of the opposing party. I'm waiting for the outrage on that one. That seems to border an act of treason, especially if I might compare this with stories and accusations slogged about Edward Snowden. > > Sometimes what people say about me in private is simply none of my business. People should have the right to think and speak privately, knowing that it is private. Imagine a world where that isn't allowed? That there is no privacy and no freedom of speaking candidly. > > I'm waiting for the outrage expressed for a candidate to openly embrace a foreign power that has a past of being adversarial to western freedoms. Does it matter that it was a sarcastic remark? > > Where is the outrage? > > I believe that Hillary loves her country, I don't think that is fraudulent. I'm not so sure about the opponent. > > The point I hope I have made is that I don't think we come to our analysis about people, particularly those in the public forum, without filtering through gendered expectations, among other expectations of course. All I'm requesting is that we examine those expectations and determine whether we are being fair about using them. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jul 30 16:30:14 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 16:30:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Liquid Modernity Message-ID: Larry- ?Your invocation of *Liquid Modernity* enticed me into reaching for a copy of the book which I have long meant to read?. Its a very sobering experience, even after only a couple of hours of reading. I assume it is the Forward, not the first chapter you are recommending to the group (hard to believe we could collectively read and discuss the whole book). The Forward is begun by a question from Paul Valery-- "So the whole question come down to this: can the human mind master what the human mind has made." The answer appears to be, except in transient and microscopic ways, NO. I skipped to the last chapter on Community. Like the Forward, and I assume all of the book, very disquieting. Its almost as if in 1999, when cell phones were not-yet-smart cellular phones, Bauman saw ISIS and Trump coming. Thanks for getting me to reach for the book. Now what? mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Jul 30 17:33:36 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 17:33:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Poems and WorksofArt?? In-Reply-To: <579c0509.c186620a.c7b96.d0a9@mx.google.com> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <579c0509.c186620a.c7b96.d0a9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: It is very helpful to have those 10 pictures, Larry. I was having trouble following the conversation until they appeared. I will be interested in hearing your thoughts on "perrezhivanie" and "social situation of development". Both contested categories. I attach notice of an upcoming MCA issue on this topic. It is hitting your screen already at the MCA webite. Presciently entitled "the pervasiveness of perezhivanie"!! I'll pass for now on discussion of the politics of the moment. I think that your suggestion of *Liquid Modernity *in this connection was particularly useful, at least for me. Today a TV stereotypic family of four seen at a table waiting for their food at a restaurant can all be seen interacting with their social worlds through their smart phones. I think we are in for liquid emergences of new categories of the social. mike On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Lplarry wrote: > Greg, and Rein, > Yes, I was referencing these 10 frames, and the transformative journeys > into dissolutions (in contrast to dispossessions) of *self* and in the > final frame to be in the *same* place but this place is radically altered. > Gesturing to perezhivanie there is a dialogue that may develop between the > notion of no/thing (no essential *thing*) and the notion of *situation of > development*. > > Rein, > Thank you for the links to explore differing ways of *interpreting* the 10 > oxcart frames. > > I also want to acknowledge Mike?s reference to Trump. > Watching the Democratic Convention, they referenced Trump in relation to > fascist *qualities*. This is not hyperbole. > Also thinking of Eric Fromm, and the Frankfurt School exploring the > Authoritarian personality. > > Zygmunt Bauman in conversation with Rein is exploring the radical > alternative to the Authoritarian Personality. > I would recommend reading the opening chapter (free on Kindle or Google > Books). > > The recognition that the history of modernity includes the history of the > modern *self* with definite *qualities*. > > A central aspect of the modern *self* is how this *self* is forming > within the volatile situation of dispossession. (capitalism breeds > volatile dispossession) > This leads to what Zygmunt refers to as *liquid modernity* emerging from > *solid or rigid modernity*. > > I question, when does *dissolution* of *self* as a virtue become > *dispossession* of *self* (and place) leading to authoritarian dreams of > control and building walls. > > This election in the USA is a hinge moment and there is a significant > difference between Donald and Hillary. > > The slogan ? we must keep hope alive? is *true* > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Greg Thompson -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: The Growing Pervasiveness of Perezhivanie.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 133183 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160730/c9cd672b/attachment.pdf From ewall@umich.edu Sat Jul 30 18:00:23 2016 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 20:00:23 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Liquid Modernity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08CF959D-5700-460C-88A7-19A143A11883@umich.edu> Mike Anything by Bauman is well worth the read. Ed Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 30, 2016, at 6:30 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Larry- > > ?Your invocation of *Liquid Modernity* enticed me into reaching for a copy > of the book which I have long meant to read?. Its a very sobering > experience, even after only a couple of hours of reading. I assume it is > the Forward, not the first chapter you are recommending to the group (hard > to believe we could collectively read and discuss the whole book). > > The Forward is begun by a question from Paul Valery-- > > "So the whole question come down to this: can the human mind master what > the human mind has made." > > The answer appears to be, except in transient and microscopic ways, NO. > > I skipped to the last chapter on Community. Like the Forward, and I assume > all of the book, very disquieting. Its almost as if in 1999, when cell > phones were not-yet-smart cellular phones, Bauman saw ISIS and Trump > coming. > > Thanks for getting me to reach for the book. Now what? > > mike > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ewall@umich.edu Sat Jul 30 18:06:26 2016 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 20:06:26 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie in the U.S.A! Or, when feelings contradictfacts In-Reply-To: <579cdfa7.c193420a.f93a2.64db@mx.google.com> References: <644B4969-1F60-412A-9B5E-0304F386139E@umich.edu> <579cdfa7.c193420a.f93a2.64db@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry Worlding comes to mind. Unfortunately Heidegger skimped a bit on feelings. Ed Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 30, 2016, at 12:11 PM, Lplarry wrote: > > Ed, > Relating to the *tone* or *resonance* of what I was watching and hearing at each convention, is it fair to say both conventions *assembled* different *modes* of discourse, different *modes* of thought? > I introduce this notion of *modes* as an entry into Greg?s question of what *moves* collectives of people who *identify* in the aggregate. > This does not requiring reaching systematic consensus but may be reaching a particular *mode of assemblage*. > One particular mode of (becoming) through *identity* may be expressed in the notion of the *authoritarian personality* as an assemblage of certain *qualities*. > The need for qualities that seem juxtaposed to the *assemblage* of qualities expressing an alternative *mode of becoming*. > Assemblage is NOT system or systematic but is a different level/layer. > My question is circling around this notion of *modes* of identity which catalyze particular qualities, characteristics, personality styles that *create* particular *moods, tones, resonance, in the aggregate but not in a systematic structure. > Of course the *mode* of yearning for a particular *model that is systematized* is one particular type of personality. > The authoritarian personality *type* was explored in response to the 1930?s and 1940?s. > Today Trump may be appealing to a particular *assemblage* (mode?) with particular identifiable qualities assembling under the umbrella notion *law and order*. > Bernie Saunders is assembling a *movement* under qualities of fairness and equity for all. > > I will leave others to decide what qualities were *scripted* at the democratic convention. > I took away from Obama the appeal to assemble folks who are moved by the notion > *you carried me* and now I ask of you to *carry Hillary*. > The focus shifts to this other *mode* of assemblage appealing to a *creed* of (not yet) BUT (can be). This mode appeals to hope not despair and my hope is that *mode* has the greater resonance with voters > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > From: Ed Wall > Sent: July 30, 2016 9:17 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie in the U.S.A! Or, when feelings contradictfacts > > Perhaps one could make the argument that STEM facts exist independent of feelings, but I am not aware of a convincing argument for the independence of the rest. > A number of years ago on the Dewey list and during another presidential election a number of list members painted a gloomy future if a certain person was elected and how misled (probably dumb was general consensus) all his supporters were. The election happened - I can't remember who won- and one of the list members - who had been among the more vehement - reflected (he taught philosophy at a large university). He said roughly there is something wrong. I have intelligent articulate students and many presented 'facts' which were in opposition to those I presented. I haven't changed my mind on a number of issues, but I realize I need to carefully consider their 'facts' and reconsider my own. Perhaps there is room for mutual reconsideration (and I might say respect for another's feelings). > > Candidates aside where do we go from here. Regardless the outcome, it is unlikely that you are going to make the other half agree with your sentiments and it is very unlikely that either candidate will fare better and very likely that further polarization will result. > > Ed > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 9:39 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > > Speaking of perezhivanie, I wonder if we might stop for a minute to > > consider the collective perezhivanie of the U.S. right about now (apologies > > for the U.S.-centric post but perhaps this is relevant across the globe?). > > > > My guess is that this is where politics (esp. of the leftist variety) has > > failed us most in the last 20 years or so (perhaps long before that but > > I've only known well the past 20 years). > > > > These ideas were prompted by Jon Oliver's 11 minute piece about the > > Republican National Convention last week: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNdkrtfZP8I > > > > The gist of the message here is that the Republicans are taking "feelings" > > for "facts" (and hence are delusional and "false-to-facts"). I agree with > > Oliver's assessment (or the part before the parentheses). > > > > But I also agree with Newt Gingrich's assessment that it is important to > > understand the feeling of the electorate (and if I might add, I think that > > this is the great failing of the Democratic party in recent years - the > > assumption that "the facts speak for themselves" and that "feelings don't > > matter". Is this contrary to a concern with perezhivanie). > > > > In fact I would propose this as precisely the research question is in > > desperate need of study right now. Namely, how do feelings come to > > circulate so widely? How do they spread like contagion? And what is the > > lifeblood and marrow that supports and sustains these feelings as they > > circulate through the social body? > > > > Or, more simply, how are feelings constituted? > > > > I suspect that this happens at different scales. At the broader scales, > > mass media are important for cultivating the particular feelings (in all > > their diversity) of a given historical moment by giving us the "raw facts" > > (note scare quotes!). And big institutions are not insignificant in this > > regard. > > > > But for feelings to be felt, they have to be lived in the capillaries of > > everyday experience where the exchange of energy happens that animates the > > muscle and sinew of the social body that enables movement of that body. > > > > It is this capillary action that interests me the most - what are the > > everyday interactions that sustain feelings in spite of facts? What are the > > everyday events and experiences that support and sustain the narratives > > that are put out by various media? (and, to be sure, the media must > > necessarily be responsive to these capillary actions if they hope to > > maintain an audience!). > > > > So I wonder is this a question of perezhivanie? > > > > Or does perezhivanie necessarily involve the situation-as-such, what we > > would otherwise call "the facts"? (and in which case, this wouldn't be a > > case of perzhivanie at all but would rather be a case of something > > different). > > > > (my language is catching me in a web of dualisms here: > > perceptions-of-the-event vs. the-event-as-such (/or "the-event-in-itself"). > > Perhaps perezhivanie will be opaque as long as I am caught in this web of > > meaning? In other words, is perezhivanie non-dualistic?) > > > > I feel this to be an important question for any democracy hoping to live up > > to that name. Without any attention to "feeling," then we run the risk of > > dismissing as delusional a massive proportion of people who live with us on > > this earth (latest polls show Trump trailing Clinton by just a few > > percentage points - is everyone on the political right deluded? Or is Newt > > and others on to something?). Where are feelings now? > > > > Seems Volosinov is relevant here too - perhaps in helping to link the > > micro- and macro- scales (with apologies to Jay L's slightly different use > > of these terms). > > > > What do you think, perezhivanie or not? > > > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jul 30 20:13:52 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 20:13:52 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Liquid Modernity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <579d6cf1.0638620a.722a4.aec7@mx.google.com> Mike, Yes, Zygmunt?s concept *liquid modernity* captures a profound shift or turn in ways social cohesion has transformed from solid to liquid *modes* of identity. I was referencing the book *Practices of Selfhood*co-written by Zygmunt and Rien Raud. The format is a conversation between two passionate persons and it is this quality of talking with each other (written in text) that is a way to engage the question of identity formation. Rien is a scholar of Japanese philosophy and I anticipated a lively debate between the Buddhist approach (the oxcart frames) and Zygmunt?s approach as someone who has experienced profound dispossession that was volatile. His understanding of the times is very difficult reading but I was hopeful that Rien coming from an alternative tradition may provide *answers* addressing Zygmunt?s profound articulation of our liquid times. This is my reason for juxtaposing *dissolution* of the essential *self* with *dispossession* of the modern *self*. The center of the modern self no longer holds but I hear the possibility of a *permeable* self that is open and ethical within situations of development. The notion of the *germ cell* may be a cell with *permeable boundaries* where the inner and outer nourish each other. Engaging Zygmunt in conversation is a permeable conversation and the opening chapter can be downloaded as an ebook Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: mike cole From rein.raud@tlu.ee Sat Jul 30 21:20:53 2016 From: rein.raud@tlu.ee (Rein Raud) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 07:20:53 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Political constructions of self vs politicalconstructions of identity In-Reply-To: References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <579c0509.c186620a.c7 b96.d0a9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <90B0BB1F-B0EC-48E3-A907-D63B0E3109FD@tlu.ee> Dear all, There is something in an earlier post on this topic well worth thinking through more thoroughly. It was said that Trump places his stress on an artificially created unity, while Clinton hers on distinction and categories of people, who should be united as members of distinct categories rather than on a primordial platform. This seems to be very true, but I wouldn?t say that either approach is itself inherently better than the other. For example, universal human rights are also an ideological construction that stresses unity, while dictators worldwide, beginning with Putin, whose orthodox clerics have devised a uniquely Russian human rights? version, and the Chinese, Singaporeans etc etc are stressing that ?human rights? is a Western (read: colonialist) invention that their cultural structures reject. The problem with categories is that your identity is being bestowed on you by a group, and some critics of multiculturalism argue precisely that cultural groups are fostering ghettoism, even though only very few theorists of multiculturalism support cultural determinism. (But there are some, such as Bhikhu Parekh.) What seems to be the problem with both approaches is essentialism in a structuralist mode. They both say that a certain part of a person?s identity is essential (the ?message?) and the rest is negligible (?noise?). Their differences arise from where they locate this essential part - whether in Trump?s oneness (or, conversely, the universality of human rights), or Clinton?s categories (or, conversely the ghetto-making determinism of cultural difference). From my point of view, the problem with this way of seeing identity is the necessity of the essential shared component itself. Monty Python?s classic take on this has captured the problem most neatly (note the quiet dissenting voice at the end). I hope you don?t mind me quoting myself, but in an otherwise rather technical article I have launched the notion of ?ity? as the sum total of what constitutes the identity of anyone and anything at any given moment: "an idiosyncratic quality that a thing has that makes it what it is, as a certain ?reinraudity? is what makes me, and no one else, Rein Raud at any given moment. As I am not totally identical to myself at every given moment, this ?reinraudity? is obviously not an immutable essence. On the other hand, it does also not consist of a limited set of ?essential? properties that I have, but necessarily refers to the sum total of all the characteristics that pertain to me, however fleeting (p.3). We all change. This is normal. There is nothing, repeat, nothing, in any set of beliefs and feelings we entertain at one moment that absolutely has to be retained so that we would remain the same persons at another. We change rather in a way the Thesean ships do. All essentialisms, positive and negative alike, can thus act as infringements on the ity of an individual. However, what we should watch out for is whether they add something (as human rights discourse does) or suppress something (as Trump?s discourse of sameness does). Categorial essentialism, turned into a political tool, is unfortunately even more likely to suppress the individual ity than universalism is. With best wishes, Rein Raud From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sat Jul 30 22:18:42 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 05:18:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts": Pedagogy of Identity Transformation Message-ID: My thanks to all who responded to my request for suggestions of "experiential texts" that could help perturb notions of identity. I also received some off-line responses, which I promised to summarize. But I'm now in the slightly awkward position of not knowing for sure if off-line responders would like to maintain their privacy. So, if you replied off-line and would not like me to share your post, please let me know by Tuesday morning. My idea of using experiential texts with teacher candidates is to perturb their sense of identity with the goal that "self-awareness of positioning facilitates engagement with [their future] students of diverse cultural locations." This agenda seems to have a struck a nerve for some. But what should I actually do with these experiential texts? How can we conceptualize a pedagogy oriented toward this set of goals and methods? What kind of "learning" am I trying to promote in my course? In case people would like to engage with these questions, I'm offering some initial thoughts; this new thread seems to fit well with the ongoing discussion of Liquid Modernity. Toward a Pedagogy of Identity Transformation: For me, identity is indexed to cultural location(s). Thus the goal of identity transformation becomes a goal of cultural transportation. In particular, having students with an essentialized, modernist experience of their identity come to apprehend their identity in a fragmented, postmodern trope is to move them to a postmodern community in which this fragmentary self-apprehension is a normative practice. So, the experiential texts, though certainly having impact on individuals, are conceived by me as instruments of community. There are two approaches to drawing students to cultural practices that representing cultural location to which they do not already aspire to relocate. The "acculturationist" approach is to conflate the classroom authority of teacher with the teacher's bona fide membership in the target culture so that students come to aspire to membership in the latter. For instance, this is the method of critical pedagogy in which one enlist students as "'transformative intellectuals' (Giroux, 1988), 'cultural workers' (Freire, 1998) capable of identifying and redressing the injustices, inequalities, and myths of an often oppressive world" (Gruenewald, 2003, p. 4) by getting them to identify with a culture of resistance. The "enculturationist" approach is to nurture the desired practices within the classroom microculture, which serves as a surrogate for the target culture. This nurturance takes the form of subliminal encouragement of ever closer approximations to the intended practices. In adapting to the classroom microculture, students come to embody (to greater or lesser extents) the intended practices. Though subliminally encouraged, the intended practices are not coerced. Students should not be aware of the cultural agenda, and their degree/rate of adaption is mediated by the complex of their existing identity structure. The enculturation approach is illustrated in Dewey (1900): "When the school introduces and trains each child of society into membership with such a little community, saturating him with the spirit of service, and providing him with the instruments of effective self-direction, we shall have the deepest and best guarantee of a larger society which is worthy, lovely, and harmonious" (p. 44). My intention is to use the enculturationist approach. Thus through my subliminal influence the experiential texts will form a basis for classroom discussion and classroom community in which postmodern sensibilities of self (may) become normative. I will try to avoid explicit mention of postmodernism, lest the implicit agenda of postmodern identity becomes experienced as a mandate (i.e., the pedagogy shifts to acculturation). For this reason, I may downplay the use of postmodern scholarly texts that are not also experiential texts, as having students identify as postmodern academics, is not the goal. At least, that's my plan, now. David Dewey, J. (1900). School and society. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Gruenewald, D. A. (2003). The best of both worlds: A critical pedagogy of place. Educational Researcher, 32(4), 3-12. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David H Kirshner Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:05 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts" I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that includes a focus on identity. The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu), I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. David Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, including their sexuality Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, but different in terms of personality. Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind of person one is recognized as being] Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jul 30 23:45:53 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 23:45:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Pedagogy of IdentityTransformation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <579d9ea3.0198620a.69608.e0af@mx.google.com> David, A quick response. I noticed a book by Zygmunt Bauman with the title *Moral Blindness The Loss of Sensitivity in Liquid Modernity*. It seems that in your approach (enculturation) to generate *felt* community this notion of the loss of sensitivity may be a central focus. So *fragmentation* of identity could be experienced as liquid moral blindness, or *fragmentation* could be creating *permeable* boundary markers. It seems enculturation that confronts *loss of sensitivity* may be a question to consider? Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: David H Kirshner From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jul 31 07:52:01 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 07:52:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Liquid Modernity In-Reply-To: <579d6cf1.0638620a.722a4.aec7@mx.google.com> References: <579d6cf1.0638620a.722a4.aec7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <579e1092.1a0d620a.88c6d.1fa1@mx.google.com> Mike, Perezhivanie seems to place *meaning* (meaningfulness) as a central focus of attention. Shifting or adding *potential* (meaning potential) shifts focus to *becoming* (possibility, not yet, can be). Here is Zygmunt on this topic: ?Human life is therefore an incessant effort to fill the appalling void, to *render life meangingful; ... That incessant effort we call *culture*. Coupled with Zygmunt?s indicating liquid modernity generates *loss of sensitivity* this may be a way into the topic of perezhivanie. The couplet (meaningful potential & loss of sensitivity) with permeable boundary markings (liminal third place) seems to be an aspect of the turn to perezhivanie and *situation of development* Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Lplarry From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Jul 31 10:00:17 2016 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 11:00:17 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Political constructions of self vs politicalconstructions of identity In-Reply-To: <90B0BB1F-B0EC-48E3-A907-D63B0E3109FD@tlu.ee> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <579c0509.c186620a.c7 b96.d0a9@mx.google.com> <90B0BB1F-B0EC-48E3-A907-D63B0E3109FD@tlu.ee> Message-ID: <277CD3A0-1708-4EDD-AA7E-79C9A32E3A1E@gmail.com> Rein and David, Thanks so much for the link to The Life of Brian! Through the wonders and connectivity of the internet that took me to to an appearance of John Cleese on the Stephen Colbert Show. At the end of the spot Cleese says he is going on a vacation to the Bahamas and plans to write a book: There Is No Hope. This is funny and pokes at my own seriousness in the way I respond to the current presidential campaign. I am thinking about how my Navajo friends use humor. How can they laugh at what would absolutely crush me? I am talking about health and family tragedies that dwarf my own contretemps. Which brings me to quote from your post: "There is nothing, repeat, nothing, in any set of beliefs and feelings we entertain at one moment that absolutely has to be retained so that we would remain the same persons at another.? So, might one add to what David is trying to develop for his course for teachers in the making the practice of humor? An ethical practice at that. Sort of seriously Henry > On Jul 30, 2016, at 10:20 PM, Rein Raud wrote: > > Dear all, > > There is something in an earlier post on this topic well worth thinking through more thoroughly. It was said that Trump places his stress on an artificially created unity, while Clinton hers on distinction and categories of people, who should be united as members of distinct categories rather than on a primordial platform. This seems to be very true, but I wouldn?t say that either approach is itself inherently better than the other. For example, universal human rights are also an ideological construction that stresses unity, while dictators worldwide, beginning with Putin, whose orthodox clerics have devised a uniquely Russian human rights? version, and the Chinese, Singaporeans etc etc are stressing that ?human rights? is a Western (read: colonialist) invention that their cultural structures reject. The problem with categories is that your identity is being bestowed on you by a group, and some critics of multiculturalism argue precisely that cultural groups are fostering ghettoism, even though only very few theorists of multiculturalism support cultural determinism. (But there are some, such as Bhikhu Parekh.) > > What seems to be the problem with both approaches is essentialism in a structuralist mode. They both say that a certain part of a person?s identity is essential (the ?message?) and the rest is negligible (?noise?). Their differences arise from where they locate this essential part - whether in Trump?s oneness (or, conversely, the universality of human rights), or Clinton?s categories (or, conversely the ghetto-making determinism of cultural difference). From my point of view, the problem with this way of seeing identity is the necessity of the essential shared component itself. Monty Python?s classic take on this has captured the problem most neatly (note the quiet dissenting voice at the end). I hope you don?t mind me quoting myself, but in an otherwise rather technical article I have launched the notion of ?ity? as the sum total of what constitutes the identity of anyone and anything at any given moment: "an idiosyncratic quality that a thing has that makes it what it is, as a certain ?reinraudity? is what makes me, and no one else, Rein Raud at any given moment. As I am not totally identical to myself at every given moment, this ?reinraudity? is obviously not an immutable essence. On the other hand, it does also not consist of a limited set of ?essential? properties that I have, but necessarily refers to the sum total of all the characteristics that pertain to me, however fleeting (p.3). We all change. This is normal. There is nothing, repeat, nothing, in any set of beliefs and feelings we entertain at one moment that absolutely has to be retained so that we would remain the same persons at another. We change rather in a way the Thesean ships do. > > All essentialisms, positive and negative alike, can thus act as infringements on the ity of an individual. However, what we should watch out for is whether they add something (as human rights discourse does) or suppress something (as Trump?s discourse of sameness does). Categorial essentialism, turned into a political tool, is unfortunately even more likely to suppress the individual ity than universalism is. > > With best wishes, > > Rein Raud From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jul 31 10:38:46 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 17:38:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Political constructions of self vs politicalconstructions of identity In-Reply-To: <90B0BB1F-B0EC-48E3-A907-D63B0E3109FD@tlu.ee> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <579c0509.c186620a.c7 b96.d0a9@mx.google.com> , <90B0BB1F-B0EC-48E3-A907-D63B0E3109FD@tlu.ee> Message-ID: Hello, Thanks for the discussion Rein. I love the Monty Python clip! I'd like to say that there was a typo in my post about pluralism vs pluralistic, I may have given the impression I am in support of pluralism. I am critical toward it for similar reasons you state. I wish I could remember the exact text I'd read of David Graeber's that discussed pluralism vs pluralistic, but it was well worth reading. Pluralism is the notion of these hardened categories in which each person must insert oneself into. If one does not fit into one, then one becomes invisible. If one is in a category that is deemed of low status, then one becomes the receptacle for antipathy by society; and for those of the high-status categories, they are the receptacles (recipients) for what is esteemed and admired. This seems very illustrative in the discourse concerning with Trump, which I'll say more about below. Pluralistic societies however see each person that is present (in time and space, here and now) as an individual, but not as individualistic entities who must maintain one's difference. Pluralistic societies are naturally democratic, there is difference without employing categories, and these differences do not create boundaries to exclude. It's revealing to see the procedure in action to revile of Trump. Is this because we see him as a category to contain what we do not want, rather than values we do not want? Supporters of Trump do so because he is, to them, considered a successful businessman. This is (a category) to be admired. So what then is the "ity" of Trump? In this recent debacle of Trump insulting Muslims, i.e., the Khan mother and father who spoke at the DNC convention in honor of their fallen son Humayan, a soldier who served in Afghanistan, in his outrage in an interview, Mr. Kahn called Trump a "black soul." This might not go over well with African Americans, because it's the wrong category. The words are wrong and so is the meaning. African Americans would never accept Trump as a black soul. Despite the mis-categorization, it appears Trump has no "ity" by the looks of it. Beyond what he owns, I don't really know much about him as a person. At the same time, it is noteworthy that such an eloquent person as Mr. Kahn is speaking up defending the character of Muslims in order to distinguish Muslims from members of the Islamic State, while Trump tries to lump them together to make them the same. Few Muslims are given national coverage to speak of themselves and for themselves. But is it right to think that Mr Kahn speaks for all Muslims? I don't think "Muslim" is an adequate "category" in the sense of boundaries and how categories are considered. Muslims are diverse. In this article yet another category is invoked, that of apostate... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/31/donald-trump-father-muslim-us-soldier-khizr-khan-soul It says: 'The dispute over the memory of Humayun Khan was also picked up by the Islamic State terrorist group. The group?s online magazine featured a picture of Khan?s tombstone in Arlington national cemetery in Virginia with the caption: ?Beware of Dying as an apostate.?' So it seems that Trump and Islamic State both negate the person who was Humayan by placing him into a category of their choice rather than letting his life speak for itself. It appears your construct of "ity" speaks to that lived experience of the person. I agree that for a single person there is change and growth. Change is inevitable. Even the body is not the same body, every 7 years all the cells have changed. However, there is something which remains the same despite the change, otherwise we could not gauge change itself. So perhaps the test is to understand how change is detected at all. I don't think it is through the creation of categories! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sun Jul 31 10:56:35 2016 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 17:56:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Pedagogy of Identity Transformation Message-ID: Thanks, Larry. I?ve ordered the book. As far as I can glean from Rein?s last post, this idea of Liquid Modernity fits with my idea of identity. We live as social/cultural beings within a landscape of interconnected cultural possibilities and alternatives. What we know consciously about this complex is generally what is given to us by the discourses of our communities. To a limited extent, our navigation through these cultural spaces is guided by these conscious maps. But much of our navigation is mediated in the moment through an unconscious calculus. Where I may disagree with Bauman is with respect to the problem of ?loss of sensitivity? to circumstances that might call for moral action. For me, moral perspectivizing is itself a cultural practice, indexed to our cultural locations. It is not an attribute that can accrue to individual agency. When we do take a deliberate decision to behave in a moral fashion, we are simply navigating to a different location in the cultural complex. We don?t invent morality on the spot. ? but perhaps that?s Bauman?s position, too?must read. David From: Lplarry [mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 1:46 AM To: David H Kirshner; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts": Pedagogy of IdentityTransformation David, A quick response. I noticed a book by Zygmunt Bauman with the title *Moral Blindness The Loss of Sensitivity in Liquid Modernity*. It seems that in your approach (enculturation) to generate *felt* community this notion of the loss of sensitivity may be a central focus. So *fragmentation* of identity could be experienced as liquid moral blindness, or *fragmentation* could be creating *permeable* boundary markers. It seems enculturation that confronts *loss of sensitivity* may be a question to consider? Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: David H Kirshner Sent: July 30, 2016 10:20 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts": Pedagogy of IdentityTransformation My thanks to all who responded to my request for suggestions of "experiential texts" that could help perturb notions of identity. I also received some off-line responses, which I promised to summarize. But I'm now in the slightly awkward position of not knowing for sure if off-line responders would like to maintain their privacy. So, if you replied off-line and would not like me to share your post, please let me know by Tuesday morning. My idea of using experiential texts with teacher candidates is to perturb their sense of identity with the goal that "self-awareness of positioning facilitates engagement with [their future] students of diverse cultural locations." This agenda seems to have a struck a nerve for some. But what should I actually do with these experiential texts? How can we conceptualize a pedagogy oriented toward this set of goals and methods? What kind of "learning" am I trying to promote in my course? In case people would like to engage with these questions, I'm offering some initial thoughts; this new thread seems to fit well with the ongoing discussion of Liquid Modernity. Toward a Pedagogy of Identity Transformation: For me, identity is indexed to cultural location(s). Thus the goal of identity transformation becomes a goal of cultural transportation. In particular, having students with an essentialized, modernist experience of their identity come to apprehend their identity in a fragmented, postmodern trope is to move them to a postmodern community in which this fragmentary self-apprehension is a normative practice. So, the experiential texts, though certainly having impact on individuals, are conceived by me as instruments of community. There are two approaches to drawing students to cultural practices that representing cultural location to which they do not already aspire to relocate. The "acculturationist" approach is to conflate the classroom authority of teacher with the teacher's bona fide membership in the target culture so that students come to aspire to membership in the latter. For instance, this is the method of critical pedagogy in which one enlist students as "'transformative intellectuals' (Giroux, 1988), 'cultural workers' (Freire, 1998) capable of identifying and redressing the injustices, inequalities, and myths of an often oppressive world" (Gruenewald, 2003, p. 4) by getting them to identify with a culture of resistance. The "enculturationist" approach is to nurture the desired practices within the classroom microculture, which serves as a surrogate for the target culture. This nurturance takes the form of subliminal encouragement of ever closer approximations to the intended practices. In adapting to the classroom microculture, students come to embody (to greater or lesser extents) the intended practices. Though subliminally encouraged, the intended practices are not coerced. Students should not be aware of the cultural agenda, and their degree/rate of adaption is mediated by the complex of their existing identity structure. The enculturation approach is illustrated in Dewey (1900): "When the school introduces and trains each child of society into membership with such a little community, saturating him with the spirit of service, and providing him with the instruments of effective self-direction, we shall have the deepest and best guarantee of a larger society which is worthy, lovely, and harmonious" (p. 44). My intention is to use the enculturationist approach. Thus through my subliminal influence the experiential texts will form a basis for classroom discussion and classroom community in which postmodern sensibilities of self (may) become normative. I will try to avoid explicit mention of postmodernism, lest the implicit agenda of postmodern identity becomes experienced as a mandate (i.e., the pedagogy shifts to acculturation). For this reason, I may downplay the use of postmodern scholarly texts that are not also experiential texts, as having students identify as postmodern academics, is not the goal. At least, that's my plan, now. David Dewey, J. (1900). School and society. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Gruenewald, D. A. (2003). The best of both worlds: A critical pedagogy of place. Educational Researcher, 32(4), 3-12. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David H Kirshner Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:05 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Subject: [Xmca-l] Identity through "experiential texts" I'm preparing to teach a capstone graduate course for teachers-to-be that includes a focus on identity. The major assignment is a Personal Literacy Portfolio in which students compile, organize, and discuss artifacts of their past in exploration of their identity. The rationale is that this self-awareness of positioning facilitates engagement with students of diverse cultural locations. I'm asking for suggestions of course resources. Rather than a single course reader, I'm looking for "experiential texts"-that is creative products in any medium that can help perturb essentialist ideas of core identity in favor of a more complex, poststructural view of identity as multiple and fragmented. Media can include academic writing in psychology, sociology, philosophy; short stories; poetry; film; works of art, etc. If you'd like to email me off-line (dkirsh@lsu.edu>), I'll send a compilation of all suggestions to XMCA. Below is a list of some experiential texts I'm already considering. David Walkerdine, V. (1990). Chapter 1: Sex, power and pedagogy. In V. Walkerdine (Ed.), Schoolgirl fictions(pp. 3-15). London: Verso. Reprinted from Screen Education, 38, 14-24, 1981. PBS Video: http://www.pbs.org/program/nine-months-that-made-you/ 9 Months That Made You - How a person's individuality is developed, including their sexuality Documentary on the life of a child kept without language for 13 years. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/14/genie-feral-child-los-angeles-researchers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjZolHCrC8E Movie: Enemy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film) The film stars Jake Gyllenhaal as two men who are physically identical, but different in terms of personality. Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an analytic lens for research in education. In W. G. Secada (Ed.), Review of Research in Education, 25 (pp. 3-56). Washington, DC: American Educational Research Association. [identity = kind of person one is recognized as being] Stremmel, A., Burns, J., Nganga, C., & Bertolini, K. (2015). Countering the essentialized discourse of teacher education. Journal of Early Childhood Teacher Education, 36(2), 156-174. [discussed in http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=20275] From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jul 31 11:41:45 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 11:41:45 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Identity through "experiential texts": Pedagogy ofIdentity Transformation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <579e466a.0cf6420a.3c198.4318@mx.google.com> Just to support your notion that moral perspectivizing is itself a cultural practice. This does not contradict the notion that we currently are practising a cultural pattern (mode?) that privileges the *modern self* AS a cultural practice And this practice culturally sustained changes (transforms) *experiences* including perceptive, conceptive, and identity formations that are not essential. This leaves open the question of cultural *loss of sensitivity* historically developing into a (mode) of becoming that privileges the modern *self*. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: David H Kirshner From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jul 31 11:56:58 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 11:56:58 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Political constructions of self vspoliticalconstructions of identity In-Reply-To: References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <579c0509.c186620a.c7 b96.d0a9@mx.google.com> , <90B0BB1F-B0EC-48E3-A907-D63B0E3109FD@tlu.ee> Message-ID: <579e49fb.47cf620a.97b4e.387c@mx.google.com> Annalisa, As I read the notion of *ity* every entity that exists participates in this *dependently arising* phenomena. There is nothing *essential* in Trumpity and no solid or rigid *identity* but Trumpity does implicate all of us in the cultural expression of the way we *carry* Trump and we are implicated in the *ways* Trumpity demonstrates this particular (ity) character. There is an aggregate *loss of cultural sensitivity* in carrying Trumpity to this moment as *event* that is unfolding. Zygmunt calls this time of liquid modernity a *moral blindness* Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Annalisa Aguilar From rein.raud@tlu.ee Sun Jul 31 12:14:28 2016 From: rein.raud@tlu.ee (Rein Raud) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 22:14:28 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Political constructions of selfvspoliticalconstructions of identity In-Reply-To: <579e49fb.47cf620a.97b4e.387c@mx.google.com> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <579c0509.c186620a.c7 b96.d0a9@mx.google.com> <90B0BB1F-B0EC-48E3-A907-D63B0E3109FD@tlu. ee> <579e49fb.47cf620a.97b4e.387c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8E0A4104-7C37-41C4-A4AE-F3CC0D482C71@tlu.ee> Annalisa, you can think of the ity in terms of a 5-day weather forecast. Where I live, it can change substantially in several hours - in the morning we are told that the day after tomorrow will be sunny, in the afternoon that the day after tomorrow will rain. And yet it is the most possibly correct forecast each moment. Trumpity (just like Clintonity) may be entirely different at each moment, and yet it is what makes him Trump (or her Clinton). And no, I do not believe that an Aristotelian substratum is necessary for a process of change - this is how Western metaphysics has envisaged this, but it is not the only way to describe change at all. For example, in a celebrated passage, Dogen (1200-53, my favourite Japanese thinker) says that ?firewood? never changes to ?ashes? just like ?summer? does not change into ?autumn?. I agree. Best wishes, Rein From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jul 31 12:44:00 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 12:44:00 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Liquid Modernity In-Reply-To: <579e1092.1a0d620a.88c6d.1fa1@mx.google.com> References: <579d6cf1.0638620a.722a4.aec7@mx.google.com> <579e1092.1a0d620a.88c6d.1fa1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I look forward to exploring the possibilities you enumerate below, Larry. I fear interrupting the ongoing discussion to turn in that direction because it will be complicated and deserves the kind of concentrated attention currently being give to the ongoing discussion. I think its really important that we begin by examining the polysemy of perezhivanie for which the upcoming issue of MCA will provide a lot of useful material. Marking the spot to return to later. mike On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 7:52 AM, Lplarry wrote: > Mike, > > Perezhivanie seems to place **meaning** (meaningfulness) as a central > focus of attention. Shifting or adding **potential** (meaning > potential) shifts focus to **becoming** (possibility, not yet, can be). > > > > Here is Zygmunt on this topic: > > ?Human life is therefore an incessant effort to fill the appalling void, > to *render life meangingful; ... That incessant effort we call **culture**. > > > > > Coupled with Zygmunt?s indicating liquid modernity generates **loss of > sensitivity** this may be a way into the topic of perezhivanie. > > The couplet (meaningful potential & loss of sensitivity) with permeable > boundary markings (liminal third place) seems to be an aspect of the turn > to perezhivanie and **situation of development** > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > *From: *Lplarry > *Sent: *July 30, 2016 8:13 PM > *To: *mike cole ; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Subject: *RE: [Xmca-l] Liquid Modernity > > > > Mike, > > Yes, Zygmunt?s concept **liquid modernity** captures a profound shift or > turn in ways social cohesion has transformed from solid to liquid **modes** > of identity. > > > > I was referencing the book **Practices of Selfhood**co-written by Zygmunt > and Rien Raud. The format is a conversation between two passionate persons > and it is this quality of talking with each other (written in text) that > is a way to engage the question of identity formation. > > > > Rien is a scholar of Japanese philosophy and I anticipated a lively debate > between the Buddhist approach (the oxcart frames) and Zygmunt?s approach as > someone who has experienced profound dispossession that was volatile. His > understanding of the times is very difficult reading but I was hopeful that > Rien coming from an alternative tradition may provide **answers** > addressing Zygmunt?s profound articulation of our liquid times. > > > > This is my reason for juxtaposing **dissolution** of the essential **self** > with **dispossession** of the modern **self**. > > The center of the modern self no longer holds but I hear the possibility > of a **permeable** self that is open and ethical within situations of > development. > > The notion of the **germ cell** may be a cell with **permeable boundaries** > where the inner and outer nourish each other. > > > > Engaging Zygmunt in conversation is a permeable conversation and the > opening chapter can be downloaded as an ebook > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone > > > > *From: *mike cole > *Sent: *July 30, 2016 4:33 PM > *To: *eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Liquid Modernity > > > > Larry- > > > > ?Your invocation of *Liquid Modernity* enticed me into reaching for a copy > > of the book which I have long meant to read?. Its a very sobering > > experience, even after only a couple of hours of reading. I assume it is > > the Forward, not the first chapter you are recommending to the group (hard > > to believe we could collectively read and discuss the whole book). > > > > The Forward is begun by a question from Paul Valery-- > > > > "So the whole question come down to this: can the human mind master what > > the human mind has made." > > > > The answer appears to be, except in transient and microscopic ways, NO. > > > > I skipped to the last chapter on Community. Like the Forward, and I assume > > all of the book, very disquieting. Its almost as if in 1999, when cell > > phones were not-yet-smart cellular phones, Bauman saw ISIS and Trump > > coming. > > > > Thanks for getting me to reach for the book. Now what? > > > > mike > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Jul 31 14:19:23 2016 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 21:19:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Political constructions of selfvspoliticalconstructions of identity In-Reply-To: <8E0A4104-7C37-41C4-A4AE-F3CC0D482C71@tlu.ee> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <579c0509.c186620a.c7 b96.d0a9@mx.google.com> <90B0BB1F-B0EC-48E3-A907-D63B0E3109FD@tlu. ee> <579e49fb.47cf620a.97b4e.387c@mx.google.com>, <8E0A4104-7C37-41C4-A4AE-F3CC0D482C71@tlu.ee> Message-ID: Hi Rein, Thanks for the discussion. :) Yes, but from what can change be measured? How do *you* detect change of any kind? There must be something static in order for change to be detected. I'm not arguing at all that there is no change or that everything is static. Even in Einstein's Theory of Relativity an stationary observer is required to detect change. As far as "ity," it is an interesting concept, but if I am understanding you, it seems to possess something of an ethical challenge for my sensibility because it means that lying or psychopathology are acceptable states of being, unless you are using this theory of "ity" to explain how it is that a person can vacillate between one moral point of reference and another without any self-awareness, one mood to another. Even though the weather patterns change, there are levels of predictability. Why be able to predict at all? How can any pattern of change be detected at all if there is nothing stationary? Also, why is it that there isn't constant mayhem and destruction, everywhere, all the time, forever and for all time; past, present, and future? Regardless of what Aristotle said, something must be stationary to account for change and that stationary point is you. In what you describe, there is nothing holding it all together to measure by except you. Without an orientation point, it dissolves into moral relativity and ethical morass, and seems nihilistic. If that is the cosmology you see as obtaining, then how is there any determination of values at all? Even if Trump is vacillating here and there between this and that form of ridicule, his body is relatively constant, his body doesn't suddenly shape shift into Liza Minelli and start singing broadway musicals, then into a pink flamingo eating crayfish and then back to The Donald we all know and love. :) Or how about this? Why is there only one Donald and not 5? Sort of borg-like hovering around the podium waving his hands in that way he does but like a slide carousel of display? How did Dogen detect the change, that is, when what was the firewood, underwent transition through time, turned into ashes, which was firewood no more? And why didn't the firewood turn into a potato chip, a cellphone, or an Apollo space capsule instead? What is your definition of change? If you don't mind sharing. :) Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Jul 31 15:44:39 2016 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 15:44:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Liquid Modernity Review Message-ID: Browing the 207 jstor entries under Z. Bauman I found the following review of *Liquid Modernity. *It contains enough of the book to give those of you who have no access or no time to check out the book online to get some of its contents, perhaps enough to figure out what that part of the discussion about ZB is all about. mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lmreview.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 251682 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20160731/5d6b263b/attachment.pdf From schuckthemonkey@gmail.com Sun Jul 31 20:08:07 2016 From: schuckthemonkey@gmail.com (Christopher Schuck) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 23:08:07 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Political constructions of selfvspoliticalconstructions of identity In-Reply-To: <8E0A4104-7C37-41C4-A4AE-F3CC0D482C71@tlu.ee> References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <579e49fb.47cf620a.97b4e.387c@mx.google.com> <8E0A4104-7C37-41C4-A4AE-F3CC0D482C71@tlu.ee> Message-ID: I'm biting off a tiny, possibly decontextualized chunk of this impossibly rich thread (that's what you get for taking a break for two days). And I haven't watched the Monty Python thing yet. But from this last interchange, I can't help but feel that there are at least two different points of confusion/disagreement here. One has to do with whether we are speaking of the *message* each candidate offers, or the *identity* the candidate is perceived to embody and which influences others (i.e. their "political" identity). I don't think these two things are always the same. The irony is that while one of Trump's big messages clearly does relate to sameness and othering, at the same time as Larry points out, there is "no solid and rigid identity" since he is defined by his independence and capriciousness, the ability to say whatever he wants and adhere to no particular position or ethos; more so than the supposedly many-faced Hilary who is nevertheless unified in the eyes of the public by her predictably compulsive need to do whatever appears politically expedient. Trump is like a box of rancid chocolates: you never know what you're going to get, only that they will probably be vile. As a cynical friend of mine observed recently, he could suddenly say "Nah, not gonna build that wall on the border after all. Don't feel like it!" and none of his supporters would care. Do we consider the quality of being mean-spirited and demagogic to qualify as a coherent identity, or these our evaluative terms for someone who is articulating something very different from identity? The second point has to do with the distinction (tension?) between ontological questions on the one hand, and epistemological ones on the other. If we are going to speak of -ity's and change insofar as it meaningfully informs human practices and our current ethical challenges (e.g. the risk of Trump being elected and the world ending sooner), then *as humans, *we cannot get away from epistemology since that directly constrains our ability to do anything with these ontologies, whatever they may be. How can voters come to appreciate that summer in fact does not change into autumn if all they can see is that we're running out of time and it's colder, and those are critical distinctions for the way they make meaning of their lives and negotiate the world, including the election? What difference does it make if Trump is actually a different Trump at every moment (albeit still himself), if what voters are able to know and see must be informed by a pattern of some sort, a way of articulating the "essence" of what Trump is for all intents and purposes as it relates to our values and goals? Similarly, how can we speak of Hillary's identity without having some epistemological reference point (what we know of her past record, what we notice her saying vs. doing)? And perhaps most importantly, how can we avoid being misled by false information, manipulation and bias in a way that will allow us to vote as citizens and not as pawns in another's agenda? I suppose in this regard I am espousing a kind of pragmatist reading (hopefully more philosophical than colloquial). Chris On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Rein Raud wrote: > Annalisa, you can think of the ity in terms of a 5-day weather forecast. > Where I live, it can change substantially in several hours - in the morning > we are told that the day after tomorrow will be sunny, in the afternoon > that the day after tomorrow will rain. And yet it is the most possibly > correct forecast each moment. Trumpity (just like Clintonity) may be > entirely different at each moment, and yet it is what makes him Trump (or > her Clinton). And no, I do not believe that an Aristotelian substratum is > necessary for a process of change - this is how Western metaphysics has > envisaged this, but it is not the only way to describe change at all. For > example, in a celebrated passage, Dogen (1200-53, my favourite Japanese > thinker) says that ?firewood? never changes to ?ashes? just like ?summer? > does not change into ?autumn?. I agree. Best wishes, Rein > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jul 31 22:07:47 2016 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 22:07:47 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Political constructions of selfvspoliticalconstructionsof identity In-Reply-To: References: <579b8775.9550620a.194fc.7f87@mx.google.com> <579e49fb.47cf620a.97b4e.387c@mx.google.com> <8E0A4104-7C37-41C4-A4AE-F3CC0D482C71@tlu.ee> Message-ID: <579ed928.2a9b420a.3a6f9.a517@mx.google.com> I have been reading Rein Raud?s paper on Dogan?s philosophy of *bussho* - Buddha-nature. This translation of the second term *sho* as either *nature* or *essence* is where we become confused. Rein says the closest equivalent to *sho* is not (essence) or (nature) but *ity* an idio/syncratic quality that a thing *has* that makes the thing what the thing is at any *given* moment. Rein indicates that the terms *essence* and *nature* obstruct the *truth* of existence by evoking the *matrix of* - types and tokens-. (essential properties and contingent forms). Rein also explores the relation of *structure* and *essence*. Rein says: ?if we are to view the totality of existence as having a *structure* then in that *perspective* (mode?) *essence* would come to have a privileged level within this structural construction. I share this to present my way of navigating this topic and exploring the notion of *liquid/ity* that is in play within the dialogue developing in this chat room. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Christopher Schuck